You're listening to the Decarbonisation Dialogue,
a podcast from Salix. Welcome to Delivering on
Climate Change, our collective challenge. I am
Hannah Walker and I believe that the best way
to communicate a message is by being passionate
about what you are talking about. Through that
passion, I believe you take people with you and
create action using your influence to make change
and make a difference. Our task today is to get
all of us to net zero. Now, today I have a wonderful
guest, a very special guest with me, and that's
our Salix board chair, Natalie Evans, Baroness
Natalie Evans of Bowes Park. Full title is the
Royal Honourable the Baroness Evans of Bowes
Park. Natalie is a current member of the House
of Lords. educated at Henrietta Barnett School
at the University of Cambridge, studied social
and political sciences and was made a life peer
in September 2014 and has previously served as
Deputy Director of the Conservative Research
Department, previously Deputy Director of Policy
Exchange and the Chief Operating Officer and
Director of the New Schools Network, leading
the charitable New Schools Network, which was
part of setting up more than 300 free schools
from 2011 to 2015. Natalie was a cabinet minister
in the Theresa May and Boris Johnson administrations
from 2016 to 2022 and as the longest serving
leader of the House of Lords in 70 years and
its youngest ever female leader. She had earlier
served in David Cameron's government as junior
minister responsible for education, justice,
work and pensions. It's wonderful to have Natalie
here today. And thank you very much for joining
me. Thank you, Hannah. It's lovely to be here.
Thank you. So we're moving straight into our
questions. Can you please, we're all very curious,
but please tell us about your work in the Lords
and the challenges that you face there. And of
course, as long as serving as the leader of the
House of Lords in 70 years, you're the youngest
ever female leader. Can I ask what that feels
like? Well, it's been a great honour. I've thoroughly
enjoyed my time in the House of Lords. And I
was leader at a particularly challenging time.
So during the time I was in the Cabinet, we had
Brexit, we had COVID, which was obviously an
incredibly difficult time for everyone. And so
I'm not sure I had any day that was the same.
But it was fascinating. It's obviously a huge
honour. to serve in the government and to be
at the centre of things. And as leader of the
House of Lords, part of my job was to help make
sure that all government legislation got through
during those times. So I was lucky enough to
be involved in a whole array of different legislation
and helping to make sure that we got the government's
agenda through. So it's allowed me to have a
broad spectrum of interest. And obviously one
of the things that happened while I was leader
was when Theresa May brought through the binding
targets. net zero we had the big environment
bill came through under boris johnson when i
was leader so i've been lucky enough to sort
of be involved or albeit a higher level rather
than getting into the policy detail of a lot
of key legislation over the last few years and
since stepping down as leader of the lords i've
I still attend. I still regularly go there, but
it's allowed me to do some more things outside,
such as chairing Salix and sort of hopefully
to be able to use my experience and expertise
that I developed in my role in the Lords kind
of more broadly and help organisations like Salix
thrive. Super. So you mentioned the binding targets
and we've talked about the net zero challenge
that we have. Because my next question is. What
interested you in Salix? We have big ambitions,
but we're a relatively small organisation. And
obviously we are tasked with this challenge of
saving our planet. But what led you to Salix?
How did you shift then from this huge amount
of work that you're doing with government to
an organisation? Well, actually, interestingly,
that was one of the questions I was asked at
my interview. And to be honest, I was really
interested in Salix and really like the work
that we do because you can actually see a tangible
impact. I think one of the things often with
organisations, you've said Salix is quite small.
It is, but it means it's focused and it can get
things done. And I think one of the things I
was particularly keen on with the organisation
was the fact that the work that we do, you can
see a tangible benefit and particularly has a
real social impact, you know, improving people's
homes, improving the experience of patients in
hospital. as we saw on a visit to the John Radcliffe
Hospital last week in Oxford. It's actually about
being able to deliver money, help ensure projects
happen, which I think, as we heard, could never
have happened without the money that Salix provides,
but actually then see a benefit to people in
their everyday lives at the end of the day. And
often in some organisations, particularly if
they're very big, you don't actually get that
link that you can see between the funding or
the work that you do with the actual outcomes
that you... that you can deliver. So that was
one of the things that really attracted me to
the Salix job. And in some ways, Drew, from my
experience, as you mentioned, when I was chief
executive of New Schools Network, where we were
a charity that practically helped people who
wanted to set up free schools. So we worked with
groups, developing their applications, helped
them through the process. And then actually two,
three, four years down the line, we're able to
see the schools themselves open. So I've always
enjoyed seeing an actual outcome to what I've
been doing and I think Salix does that very well
and I'm very keen to help the organisation support
Kevin and the senior team to continue to do our
great work in this area. Super thank you and
going back you mentioned the John Radcliffe Hospital
in Oxford because of course I was on that visit
with you last week very recently we looked a
lot we went behind the scenes we looked at we
looked a lot of pipe pipe work we looked at the
air source heat pumps what were your what your
impressions of going from you've been in the
lords you've sat you've been with salix for a
short while now um you've got a big understanding
of the work but this is i think one of your first
site visits if not your first at a hospital what
what did you find to be the most surprising elements
of that visit for you and the work that's being
done there you mentioned patients you mentioned
social value all of the difference this is making
yeah What did you find most surprising? Well,
I don't think it's surprising, but I think it
was a salutary lesson of the complexity of all
of this. And I think that's one of the things,
particularly if you're kind of working on policy,
it all sounds very easy on paper, doesn't it?
And sort of, oh, well, you give the money, then
it can get sorted out, off you go. Whereas actually,
obviously, when we went around the hospital,
you've got patients there, you can't compromise
care. the work that went in to try and make sure
all this work, which was incredibly technical
and detailed and sort of, well. transformative
for the hospital but has to be done without getting
in the way the clinicians without you know interrupting
the patient's experience without turning things
off or causing you know undue havoc so I think
although you sort of know that actually seeing
on the ground and you know therefore the real
collaboration which I was really impressed with
between the teams working on from the hospital
to their energy partners as they called them
and sort of all the teams working the engagement
that the estates team in the hospital have with
the clinic to make sure that everyone understood
because even within a big organisation obviously
you know one of the things was the estates team
haven't necessarily got the clinical knowledge
or know when the theatres are needed so even
within the John Radcliffe itself there was a
huge amount of collaboration between different
teams added to that the sort of the contractors
and the other people working on it so that was
really impressive and just sort of you know then
seeing the actual gains afterwards of the improvement
in the experience that patients have had but
the real organisation the real technical focus
to detail that has to happen in order to deliver
a project and I think that's one of the great
things for our teams and I'm sure you know people
working in Salix find is being able to get under
the skin of a project it's not just about providing
the money and saying off you go it's actually
helping to deliver something that's really complex
and I think the learnings around that are really
important to go back to government so that they
understand. some of the complexities around it
and sort of can make the schemes as user -friendly
as they can be absolutely i think when i go on
those visits particularly if i accompany delivery
team members and i look at how they've worked
with that project right from the start and yes
we're on tight deadlines and yes The project
has to have an end date. But actually, the project
doesn't stop there, does it? There's a hospital.
I know that John Radcliffe was talking very much
about future proofing and what's going to happen
in 10 years and 20 years to sites like that.
So absolutely fascinating and lovely to accompany
you on that visit, too. So going back to the
social impact is we're looking at massive challenges
as we face climate change, climate crisis. You
turn on the news, it's in our faces every day.
whether it's inequalities, pandemics, resource
pressures, can government face these challenges
alone? No, I don't think government can face
these challenges alone. I mean, it's a partnership.
Everyone's got to be brought in, which I think
is why there's such a focus as well on making
sure you take the public and organisations with
you. This isn't something that could be done
to people. It's something that we all have to
face and work collectively together. But of course,
government has a critical role. It's got a critical
role about helping to lead the way, about showing
what the priorities are. And also, to be honest,
in a time where money's tight and people are
facing costs of living, it's also about helping
people. be able to make the right choices and
to actually be able to take a step in that direction
so i think absolutely government can't do it
alone but i think it has an important role to
play in direction and leadership and also facilitating
and encouraging and also shining a light on good
practice that's happening again one of the great
things about our organization is we've got so
many excellent projects to point to excellent
learnings to help other people be able to address
the challenge because i think sort of saying
oh it's all scary it's all so big it's all so
difficult it can actually make it quite difficult
for people to think about how in their lives
they can engage in it how in their organizations
they can really make a difference and i think
government and organizations like salix have
got the chance to sort of show it is possible
and you can take small steps which can help with
the sort of broader ambition, but actually also
then improve the working environment, the lives,
you know, the environment that you on an everyday
basis are working in. So I think, you know, that's
what we all need to do to pull together. Now,
of course, you've talked about the net zero conversation.
And the reason, one of the reasons I wanted to
mention your work with the New Schools Network
is because obviously that's all about young children.
That's all about children setting up free schools,
giving... more children opportunities that they
might not otherwise have had in in learning in
those learning environments but of course the
younger generation are very much part of this
conversation the zero conversation and we go
into schools i'm not sure if you've been into
a school yet and seen a school project not a
school project you will because they are certainly
the leaders of the future and there seems to
be a lot of clarity over what children have to
say about that um and and indeed the younger
generation have been fundamental in this whole
conversation in keeping it in the news as well
to a certain extent we've seen that um should
climate change the discussion around climate
change and all of those issues do you think it
should be fixed into the national curriculum
is it something that you feel that children should
be learning and talking about every day just
like we are when we turn up when we turn on the
news i mean i certainly think it is You know,
it is such a big conversation, something young
people are interested in. I'm not sure I'd necessarily
mandate it because you could mandate lots of
things. But I think actually if you go and talk
to schools and go and visit, visit schools around
the country, actually looking at what they're
teaching is something that is starting to be
embedded. I know my niece has just finished a
degree in geography and geography today is a
world away from what I studied as geography.
And in fact, issues like climate change, regeneration,
all of that actually is now, I think. actually
taught in a way that perhaps for me it wasn't
so I certainly think it's issues that are raised
within sort of various different subject matter
at schools and it's something young people are
interested in and I know although I haven't been
to a project myself I'm chatting to Kevin while
we're at the hospital about actually the engagement
that Salish projects have with the young people
in the schools that they're in I think he was
talking about One school he visited where, you
know, the children went out and saw the heat
pump being put into place. And then, you know,
there was lots of celebration and explanation
about what was happening. And actually the teachers
were able to use what was practically happening
in the school to improve it, to then talk to
children about engineering or about how heat
works or about how you deal with climate change.
So I think one of the other... and sort of uplifting
things about some of the projects we'll do is
actually engaging with the people involved in
it. And obviously on a school setting, that's
a lot of the pupils who can then go back and
tell their parents excitedly what they've done,
which may make their parents then start to think
about what they can do at home. They actually
do go home and tell their parents to switch off
the lights. They do. So it is fantastic. And
it also, of course, it opens their eyes to careers
and opportunities and different ways of doing
things. And we know that, I mean, this area is
going to be a huge growth area. terms of future
jobs it's one of the things when you talk to
businesses and I think looking at sort of some
of the things that we want to do is the skills
gap with not having enough qualified people to
retrofit to get involved in this I was on a select
committee looking at 16 GCSE type education in
the House of Lords and one of the themes that
came through the evidence we had consistently
was the lack of skills and sort of the importance
that the kind of retrofitting the climate agenda
is going to have on jobs in the future and how
we're just not really geared up to do that so
I think that is a conversation that's happening
and I think it's something that as young people
are interested hopefully they will look at careers
within this area which can then address some
of the skills gaps that we're facing at the moment.
At Salix we're certainly finding that when we
do go out on visits to colleges and further education
centres where young people are engaged in those
projects and have actually ended up coming back
and working on some of those projects as well.
So fantastic. So we're very positive and I don't
want to turn to the negative, but it's a serious
discussion. We're talking about net zero. You
chair a board of an organisation focused on helping
public sector and across housing reach net zero.
Can we get there? We can get there. It's going
to be very challenging. And I think we constantly
need to be reassessing ourselves and sort of
making sure that we're not setting ourselves
up to fail. I think we do need to be realistic.
But I think coming together and working in partnership,
we can get there. There are some very, very challenging
targets. I don't think there's any point in denying
that. And whether we can quite hit them exactly,
I'm not going to stake my house on it. But I
think working together, we are making progress.
And it's about sharing the best practice. It's
about learning from ourselves. experience it's
always more difficult when you start off and
it's something completely new but within our
organization now we've been running schemes for
several years and we can use that to improve
things and obviously technology is constantly
improving you know as we go through we only hearing
about in the news today new AI happening which
is thrown American AI up in the you know up in
the air and so you know things are developing
so I don't think we should be depressed about
it or worried but I think you know we need to
be realistic but what we do need to do is take
people with us and we need to understand the
context that we're working with and there is
no question you know we are in difficult economic
times we've obviously got a different approach
in America now as well and we'll see what potential
impacts that might have. But I think we continue
the positive work and you can continue to show
the benefits. And it's about talking about the
benefits as well. It's not just a cost on people.
It's not just forcing people to change behaviour
for the sake of it. It's actually for good, both
for them and for the climate generally. And I
think it's about making sure we... keep those
strong positive messages at the forefront as
well thank you and if we certainly have all of
those positive messages and all of that energy
and ambition from people like you and you know
within Salix talking about Salix and within our
teams we indeed we can get there it's just a
journey and that's that collaboration and innovation
that you talk about for you so you've had a highly
successful career you're having a highly successful
career and you're obviously enjoying it But what
next for you in terms of your profession? What
next? What's your next step? Well, to be honest,
I've never had a roadmap, if I'm being honest.
I always seem to have sort of gone from one thing
to another. And where it's taken me, I can't
complain. So I haven't got sort of a definitive,
this is where I want to get to. But, you know,
obviously in this coming year, it's going to
be an incredibly exciting year for... Salix there's
lots going on around lots of new government priorities
so helping the organization to navigate that
and make sure that we continue to showcase the
fantastic work that we do and I'm enjoying the
sort of variety of things I'm involved in now
so I'm still involved in issues I'm interested
in in the Lord so recently spoken on education
for instance but I'm also really enjoying using
my kind of knowledge and understanding of how
the world of Whitehall and Westminster works
in a more sort of commercial and business context
and trying to use that for good so I'm hoping
to continue with a sort of varied array of roles
going forward. Super. Well, we look forward to
following this journey that you're on. And obviously,
we're very privileged and very proud to have
you as chair of our board at Salix. Thank you.
Thank you to Natalie. There can be no doubt that
climate change is the biggest challenge of our
time. Today, we must reduce greenhouse gas emissions
to slow global warming. Today, we must act for
tomorrow, adjusting our lifestyles to current
and future impacts of climate change. Today,
we must use our collective wisdom to deliver
on our climate commitment. Today, we work for
tomorrow's world. Don't forget to subscribe to
our podcast and send any views, news, ideas to
our podcast email box. And that's podcast at
salixfinance .co .uk. But I really would like
to thank Natalie today for taking the time to
talk to us about your work. Thank you. It's a
pleasure. Thank you. You've been listening to
the Decarbonisation Dialogue, a podcast from
Salix. For more information about our work and
to find more content, please visit salixfinance
.co .uk forward slash podcasts.