Welcome everyone to my new podcast, Therese Makes
History. Well, my name is Therese Sweeney and
I've been producing history since the mid -90s.
I've initiated much of my work, spending my years
embedded in community, in the field, with residents
in their homes, on their streets, at their clubs,
in their market gardens and farms, observing
with respect. their daily lives, capturing often
communities that aren't seen by the wider populations.
I have the luxury of being trained in both analog
and digital technologies when I was at university,
although I taught myself the analog camera on
the job. But I left the metropolis 13 years ago
and moved down the south coast. My partner and
I bought a lovely little dairy cottage. on some
acreage at the end of Hannigan's Lane, Bolong.
It was Harry Bell's old place. I was obsessed
with the double silos that you could see over
our fence. We were surrounded by 3 ,000 acres
of land with beef cattle. I loved it. Canberra
Mountain in the distance felt very supportive.
Why did I get obsessed with the silos? I never
stopped photographing them, but at the time...
I had begun a major commission with Belgany Farm
Camden Park Estate, which is owned by the Department
of Primary Industries, fundamentally recreating
20th century history through the voices and knowledge
held by former employees of the estate. Many,
many dairy hands, workers associated with the
dairy industry and managers. Of course, there
was a big research centre there. So I suppose
I started to like dairying whilst I was living
down here. We ended up moving off the land and
for the last two years have lived in Berry. What
I'm doing is initiating a project which I'm calling
the Dairy Lane Project. Between Bomaderry and
Berry, there are approximately 18 lanes, most
named after pioneering dairy families. dating
back to the 1850s. White Anglo -Saxon Europeans
that migrated here. After David Berry's death
in 1889, the first subdivision of the lands accumulated
by that family were released for sale to the
general public. Some 60 ,000 acres. Many of the
tenants that were leasing the lands from the
estate were in a position then to purchase. And
the descendants of those lands are the people
that I'm engaging for this project. This is a
colonial history. I now introduce to you Robin
Florence, OAM. Robin is a known local historian
in the region and has been writing books for
local history societies since the 1970s. He's
highly regarded. So I welcome Robin to participate
in an interview with me in... in positioning
the beginning of this vast, daring history. How
long have your family been in Bury? My grandfather,
my great -grandfather came here on the Bury estate
in the 1890s. Was that paternal side or maternal?
That must have been paternal side. And he had
a farm at Mullian and my grandfather, Harold
Bruce Fenwick Holland, was born. there in 1895.
And what about the maternal side? My maternal
side, my grandmother, I called her Ma and I called
my grandfather Bruce because that's the only
name I ever heard him called. She was born in
Tooba Tooba in 1904 and came to Broughton Vale.
to stay with friends and they went out to Seven
Mile Beach and they met my grandfather and ended
up getting married in the Presbyterian Church
in Victoria Street, but it was the one at the
top of the hill, not the one down the bottom.
So Berry had its own council, did it? Can you
explain that and maybe what time frame, if you
recall? All right, so there were seven councils
in the time when the Municipalities Act came
into being in the 1890s. So then there was Broughton
Vale Council, there was Gerringong Municipal
Council, Bumaderry, well, it was Bumaderry and
Bury Council, Clydeshire Council, Canberra Council,
South Narrow Shalehaven Council, and they all,
in 1948, they all joined and became Shalehaven
Shire Council. Then in 1979, they became Shoalhaven
City Council. Because the areas really had their
own lives. Like even Jasper's Brush, for example,
had its own entertainment, had its own railway
station. Most of the little villages, they usually
had a school. Not all of them had a shop or a
store. The post office was usually in the school.
So there was an area in this... residents of
the school for the post office how many sawmills
were there around then most places had a sawmill
because the timber was one thing that they built
their houses for so yeah um i'm not sure of how
many were in actually very malloy's had a sawmill
down near the railway station but my great -grandfather's
was in victoria street that went back to princess
street and What were they cutting? I can't tell
you what he was cutting. I've got photos of him
sitting in the sawmill. But he did a lot of jobs.
So timber cutting was one thing, but he was also
a milk carter. They did all sorts of jobs in
those days. They weren't just specific. But he
employed a fair few people, yeah. So was all
the cedar gone then, or was he cutting cedar,
you think? He would have been getting it from
Woodhill Mountain. So he lived at Woodhill. And
when the butter factory went into liquidation,
he actually purchased the building and moved
all the timber down and built a house adjoining
his sawmill in Victoria Street. So this is all
pre -mechanisation? Well, yeah, 1930s. We used
to walk everywhere. So tell me a walk. Well,
Victoria Street in those days to the Princess
Highway wasn't opened. And I used to walk up
Victoria Street to the, I think it's on George
Street. And then the Blackberries were there
and we used to pick Blackberries and take them
home and she used to make jam and pies out of
them. And then we often walked up over the hill
to friends of hers. And we often walked to Crozier's
Lane in Jasper's Brush because my auntie lived
on the corner in the blue house. And sometimes
I can remember my grandfather coming to pick
us up because he had a... It's an Austin Prefect,
is it? The little car? Yeah. What colour was
the car? Green. With the lanes, were they named?
A lot of places... Well, where I was born, for
example, it didn't have a number. It was Dundee.
I was born at Dundee, Victoria Street, Bury.
And, well, if you had a lane. So Hitchcock's
lived on the end of a lane which is called Muller's
Lane. I didn't take notice of the names then.
Crozier's, I used to walk up to the Forks' right
at the end of Jasper's, Crozier's Lane. Yeah.
Was it called Crozier's? I've got no idea. I
was only six. Yeah. I'm only remembering things
that, yeah. How did you get across the highway?
So it was a road. There was no traffic then.
Yes. We used to walk. I can remember walking.
Wish I could walk now. Well, you're on the go
for now, are you? I don't mean, in case you are,
I don't mean to be disrespectful. Okay, so you
walked. So what did Berry look like? Was it little
cottages, little wooden cottages? I used to walk
every week. I used to walk down there to Bury
with my grandfather to go to pick up the Bury
Register. Mr Higgins was the editor of the Bury
Register then and he lived down in the corner
of Victoria Street and I used to play with his
daughter. Don't remember very much about houses.
I don't suppose I was interested in the houses.
What about the showground? Was that operating?
Yeah, the showground was operating and we used
to go to the Berry Show. We'd sit in the... I
can't remember going to the Berry Show with my
grandparents or my parents, but I took my own
children to the Berry Show with my grandmother.
Yeah. What were some of the big names there?
Do you recall sort of the... The big shorthorn
breeders? There was a lot of them, but I wasn't
a farm girl. I was interested in the cattle parade
and the horse jumping and the wood chopping that
went on, yes. Did you ride horses yourself? Only
later, not when I was in Bury. So you got married
to who and when? I got married to a Paul Florence
in 1917. And I have three beautiful children,
Michelle, Matthew and Nicole. And Matthew lives
at Shoalhaven Heads and Nicole lives in Shepparton
in Victoria and sadly Michelle died of cancer
five years ago. Sorry to hear that. Okay, so
did you have anything to do with Nauru or was
it just Barry when you were sort of growing up?
I didn't have anything to do with Nauru. I can't
remember even... I used to watch outside Fosseys.
My uncle was in the Nowra Town Band and his brother
was George Seymour and I can remember standing
outside what was Fosseys building then and they
had caps in their hand while they were playing
music to raise money, funds, but that's about
it. I can't remember anything else about Nowra.
Were they raising funds for...? For the town
band. For the town band. Seymour boys were in
it and the Harvey boys were in it, yeah. So Berry
used to be called another name, didn't it? Broughton
Creek. Yeah, so...? Well, Broughton Creek, well,
Broughton, it's part of the Berry estate and
it was called after Broughton because of the
Broughton Creek. Yeah, so the Broughton Creek
went through it, yeah. So Bomaderry's got a creek
as well. Okay, now for those people that don't
know briefly, I'm going to ask a bit of description
of the Berries, the names. So I've got them written
here. I know two of them. All right. So Alex.
Alexander Berry. Yeah. He was, I suppose, an
entrepreneur in what we call them today. And
he came down to the south coast in 1822 and spied
a property he liked and he called it Koolangatta.
And that's where the very estate started. It
was 10 ,000 acres to start with. And he had a
few convicts. So then he had his brothers come
out from Scotland. And his brothers and assistants
just came out from Scotland and they stayed at
Coolangatta. And he moved up to Crow's Nest and
lived up there with his partner, Wollstonecraft.
and then a brother died, John Dry died. Do you
know when he died, roughly? In the 1870s, no.
Yeah, 1870s, from a fall from a horse. Yeah,
he died, and so then they started... David Berry
actually was the one who started all the tenants,
and they started tenants' farms. So you had tenant
farms from Gerongong, Tuladura, Foxground, Broughton
Village, Canberra, oh, this northern side of
the river, Shullaven Heads. Bolong. And then
on the southern side of the river, they had Number,
Upper Number, Pyree, Greenwood Point. It was
a vast, vast estate. Who was William Berry? Do
you remember him? He was a brother. He died as
well. So all that was left was David in the end.
And David ran the estate with his cousin Sir
John Hay. And David Berry's will, he left a lot
of money to St Andrews University in Scotland
and other things and he had to sell off some
of the land. Most of the tenants who occupied
the farms from the 1860s were allowed to purchase
their properties if they wanted to. So a lot
of the tenant farmers actually bought the properties
they'd been renting for years. So we're talking
sort of from the Church of England. Yeah, so
the Wesleyans or the primitive Methodist or the
Methodist, they were around because you've got
a lot of those early churches were Wesleyan.
What is Wesleyan? Wesleyan was after John Wesley
and he was the minister and, well, primitive
Methodist they used to be called. And so that's
why you've got churches. So the church at Maroo
was built. by the estate, and the one at Greenwood
Point was built by the estate. The auctioneers,
did you ever hear... You know Stuart and Morton
were the auctioneers. Stuart and Morton. John
Stuart lived at Menanga, at Bury, and the Morton
family, well, they were at number to start with.
HG Morton then went to... He came out and worked
for Alexander Bury. And then his sons, he had
eight sons. I think it was eight sons. And, yeah,
so that's where the auction is, Stuart and Morton.
So there was a lot of land being sold. Oh, yes,
a lot of land. And because Morton was very well
known by the Berry family and Sir John Hay and
Alex Hay, that's when, yeah, they started. And
what about Stuart from Berry? Well, he was the
first Stuart. It was the postmaster at Bury on
the bottom end of Menenga. That's where the post
office was. The silos were built in the 19...
Well, the ones at Bolong were built by Tetley
and he didn't build them until the 1930s. But
you've got to remember that these were farmers
and their only social life was either the church
or sport. So you've got Bury magpies. They were
playing football in the 1880s. And that club
still exists to this day? And that club still
exists. Even though it was rugby union, it still
exists as a league club. Do you recall the clubs
that started up? Was there anything at Jasper's
Brush, for example? Jasper's Brush had the School
of Arts and I think they had a tennis club. A
lot of them played tennis. Broughton Village
had a tennis club and they used to play Maroo.
I can't remember Jasper's Brush. And Berry. And
Tula Jua, Crooked River. Yeah, so sport was the
main thing. So the farmers, they had to have
something to get them away from the farm. Most
of the cricket was played between milking. So
they'd start so they could get home to milk.
Yeah. Sorry, were the cricket grounds not just
something made? They were just something made,
so they'd have a pitch on a paddock somewhere,
so they'd have to pick up all the cowpats before
they played. Yeah, so it was like the golf club
in Bury. Before you... The golf club started
in the 1940s, I think, on a private property,
and so before you played golf, you had to go
around and pick up all the cowpats and make it
so you could play. Are you still in Bury today?
No, I live in Bomaderry. Okay, so there was quite
a lot of land being sold at Bomaderry as well
in that, you know, from an early part. At the
same time. So Bomaderry was 1859, Bomaderry began,
and it was a very estate property, and then it
was sold off in the 1890s. Would they have all
been farmers predominantly? You had blacksmiths.
You had other things. The milk had to be carted
somewhere, so you had all those sorts of jobs
that went with the farming. You had the butter
makers, and then most of them had a small little
factory. So, for example, Jasper's Brush had
a little butter factory. So people worked there.
You had to have someone to bring the milk in,
weigh it. Yeah, all those sorts of things. So
they weren't just farmers because farmers still
had their other services that they had to use,
yeah. What produce was being grown? Wheat was
no good because it started to get rust, so you
don't have anything like that. But I think they
grew sorghum and those sorts of grasses to feed
back to their cattle, and they had horses as
well, yeah. There would have been a lot of land
clearing. There was a lot of land clearing, and
in those early days, that's what the tenant farmers...
So, say, for example, in 1850, someone took up
a grant at Jasper's Brush, they might get...
start off with 60 acres, and they'd only pay...
They wouldn't pay anything until they'd cleared
a bit of land, and then the estate would build
them a house, and then they would pay off the
house. And a lot of... Early records, it says
they were paid by bushels of wheat. But then
later on, it wasn't. They had to pay by pound,
yeah. So it started off as a barter. Well, it
was like that. They gave them free rent, I think
it was for two years, while they cleared the
land. It's a hell of a job, isn't it? Yeah, it
was a big job because you've got to remember
there was no... It was just axe. I've seen some
of the equipment. Young Richard Box will show
me a few things. Maroo Meadow and Bomaderry.
They were called two separate names because Bomaderry
was a different area. That's right. So they were
all different areas. They were all little villages.
Can you define the Bomaderry area for me? Okay,
so Bomaderry went from the northern part of the
Shoalhaven River out to a boundary with Bolong.
on one side, and Canberra on the other, and Maroo
Boundary. Now, Maroo Boundary, I think, started
at Exeter Farm. I'm not sure, but Fletcher's
Lane in Bomaderry was Fletcher's Lane in Maroo
at one stage. So they've changed the boundaries.
Bomaderry, in those early days... Until the railway
came, there wasn't a lot of... Bombardier was
really on the other side of the railway line,
so it was called Bombardier Point. And so you
didn't have transport like you've got today.
You had the punts and ferries crossing the Shoalhaven
River. And they would come up Broughton Creek
and they had a store there and they had a wharf.
And then you'd go to Bolong. and you'd go up
Broughton Creek, and you had the ferry house
and the punt to go across the river. And in 1904,
it didn't really start, Bummerderry really didn't
start moving. They had a small school that was
started by a farmer's wife, and they didn't have
a lot. The Presbyterian Sunday School wasn't
built till 1895, so... Nothing really started
until the land was sold. Okay. Koolangatta, the
estate, the old estate that still exists today,
is that for sale at the moment? Yes. It's a big
thing, isn't it? Yes, a big thing. $14 million
or something. Okay, so... For those that don't
know, Koolangatta Estate are the original farming
buildings. Was it like Camden Park to a degree?
Yes, sort of like Camden Park. They had a big
area. Like a main farm? No, they had the farm,
but because it was all rented, they were all
on lease around the big farm. So the big farm
was like the service centre. In the early days,
Jimmy Suna, a Chinese, he was their storekeeper.
He was their, I suppose, keeper of their stock
and things, and people used to go to him and
they'd be handed out their rations or if they
wanted to buy food, and he'd look after that
for them. What was his last name? Suna, S -U
-N -A. And do you know about him? Tell me about
Jimmy. And you're laughing. When the convict
system finished, they had a lot of trouble finding
workers because a lot of the farmers were leased.
And so they brought out German immigrants to
do the wine growing and they were called vine
dressers. And they brought out Chinese and they
brought some from Maoris from New Zealand. to
look after, to work for them. You had a lot of
Chinese, but you had a lot of Aboriginal workers
on the estate too that married into them. So
you had the Germans. So to start off with the
Chinese, we had Jimmy Suna, we had the Gosangs,
and I can't tell you any other names at the moment
because it's out of my head. Do you know how
to spell the Gosangs? G -O -S -A -N -G. and I
wrote a history of the Chinese in Shoalhaven,
and I wrote the history of the Germans in Shoalhaven.
Okay, so you've spoken about the Chinese. What
era is this? 1850s. Gee, that's early. This is
after convicts. So 1849, the convicts really
stopped, and so they had to look for other migrants
or people. That's when they thought the Germans
came out, and as soon as 1855. Chinese immigrants.
Can I go to Jasper's Brush? And they had a railway
station there that's no longer theirs. Yep. Would
have been built for the creamery or what? No.
So in 1893, the railway only went to what we
call now is... It was North Kiama. It never crossed
the creek, so it had to come into Kiama. So in
1893, they extended the railway. to Kiama and
all the way down to Bumadiri. Now, they couldn't
go across the bridge at the time because the
bridge was not heavy enough, couldn't carry the
weight of an engine because we've got diesel
and fuel engines here now and they're very heavy.
And even when they built the new bridge, they
couldn't get to the bottom with all the equipment
and everything they've got. The railway came
through in 1893 and it came through most of the
Berry Estate. And when it came through the Berry
Estate at Jasper's Brush, David Berry gave the
land for the railway station. So you had one
that started off with Koyama, then you had Rose
Valley, then Omega, Gerongong, Tuladua, Berry.
Jasper's Brush and Bomaderry. That's quite a
few stops. There was a lot of stops, but they
used them because once the transport came, that
was the best thing because they could send their
milk to Sydney on the train. So these might have
been properties, perhaps, or...? Yeah, it was
all estate properties. From Djerongong down,
it was all very estate. Yeah. Yeah. On that side
of the highway that has a lot of water, so on
the Bolong side, what sort of impacts were the
floods and the water on production? On Bolong?
Oh, just all through there. Yeah, Maroo Meadow.
Yeah, the whole lot. It was awful, but that's
how it was. That's how they cleared the land,
but the water was still coming down. Yeah. So
in 18, there was Torera and those sort of places
were wiped out. So Bolong lost a lot of land,
a lot of land where the punt used to go across.
That area was in the middle of the river now
because the river's just taken the sides of the
land and always will, yeah. So the floods had
a big impact, but they all got over it and...
What happened with their lives? As they do today.
Yeah, yeah. But it did affect some crops probably.
Probably, yeah, the crops would have, and they
would have had to get their cattle. They lost
a lot of cattle, and they had to move their cattle
to higher land. Well, at Bolong, when did they
move their cattle to higher land? There's no
higher land. I recall I read something where
a lot of the farms originally that came to Bolong
moved north. Yeah, a lot of people went to the
Richmond River. They all went to the Richmond
River. So if you read anything about it, whether
you're in Foxground, whether you're in Bolong,
they went to the Richmond River. Where is the
best land in this Shoalhaven region? Where the
farms are. Yeah, where the farms are. So I'd
say, well, Garrity's farm at Bolong, Glen Albus,
it was really flooded. And the boundary of it
is the Shoalhaven River, so it's always been
under. And that's where the Manildra factory
is and everything out there, so you can know
where all the water is. In the early days of
Manildra, were they processing dry milk? Yeah,
malted milk. What era there are we talking about?
I used to have malted milk in my drinks, my uncle,
when I used to come down to visit. It was a malted
milk factory. Is that when you get a malted milkshake?
Yes. You used to buy it in a container and spoon
it in. I can remember it was a creamy colour.
I can remember a creamy colour and we missed
to put spoonfuls in your milk. Most of us might
have only had... I remember getting a milkshake
having a caramel malted milkshake. You don't
get them anymore. You can't see them malted anymore.
So what... Did I ask what sort of era that was?
It was when you were a little girl? Yeah, that's
the 50s. Yeah, still the 50s, yeah. How important
was dairying to this region? It was a chief,
obviously a chief industry. It wasn't the only
industry, really, that did anything for this
area. It was dairying. There's a lot of the timber
places like Tomarong and those sorts of places.
Kangaroo Valley. Well, Kangaroo Valley wasn't
the Berry Estate, so it was the Osborne Estate.
And Tomarong wasn't the Berry Estate. So, yeah,
completely different. I wonder how Kangaroo Valley
feels about Berry. Yeah, very close. A lot of
families went to Kangaroo Valley or Kangaroo
Valley. In those early days, without being awful,
they used to get married over the back fence.
So there wasn't a lot of people around. Mrs Macaulay's
daughter would marry Mr Smith's daughter and
they'd move and then they might move to Kangaroo
Valley and, yeah. So it wasn't arranged, but
that's what happened. Yeah, that's what happened,
yeah. So that's where they met. That's why you
had a school of arts at Jasper's Brush where
people could meet and dance. You had the Maroo
Hall at Maroo. You had the Berry School of Arts
and you had... But yeah, so everywhere there
was somewhere that you could actually go to meet
people. Yeah, Bumaderry had a hall where you
could go dancing. How would they all get there?
Horse and cart in the early days. There used
to be a bus that went from Nowra to Bumaderry
to pick up people to take them to the Maroo,
Jasper's, I think it was Jasper's Brush as well
as Bumaderry. They used to, and then they'd have
dances, yeah. So when you say Fletcher's Lane,
do you know who Fletcher's Lane was named after?
Because I do want to talk about, just briefly,
you know. Well, Fletcher's, yeah, the Fletchers
lived in Fletcher's Lane. John Fletcher, if I
can remember correctly, John Fletcher, yes. And
they had a property there and they had something
to do with the Jasper's Brush or Maroo Butter
Factory. So they were all... Come back to me
another time. Yeah, I will. Okay, I'll give you
a call. So, I know it's hard, isn't it, when
there's a lot of information in that brain. Too
much. Yep. So, all the lanes from Bomaderry to
Bury are named after dairy farmers? Most. Most.
Schofields Lane, for example, that I came...
Schofield's Lane was named after Schofield the
Butcher in Bury and he had his cattle, he probably
would have had his cattle out where Schofield's
Lane is now. Then his son moved to Nowra and
we've got a Schofield's Lane in Nowra because
his son had the butcher shop on the corner of
Schofield's Lane. Pirie Lane is named just because
it was Pirie and it was the lane that led out
to Kalala and those places in those days. A lot
of them were named after farmers. In the early
days they were, but, for example, where you live
was named after a First World War and listing
from a berry. So it's changed. So you're saying,
what was that name? That was Andrew Tressidor.
And his name was spelt with one S, but they never
changed it. What do you know about Huntingdale
Park Estate for those new residents? Before,
when I was growing up, it was just vacant land
and the Poolsfords from Broughton Village used
the flat area for their cattle. Yeah, so they
used to bring their cattle here from Broughton
Village. So this is where they, you know, spell
their cattle and, yeah. Okay. I don't know anything
about Huntingdale Park. There was these subdivisions,
Gerry Bailey subdivisions at Koolangatta. All
right. So that was John Hay. So you've got to
remember that John Hay was born at Koolangatta
but went back to New Zealand to live. And then
when he came back over to look after the estate,
he had Alex Hay as well. So that was called the
Hay Estate to begin with because it was on the
other side of the area and it wasn't really tenanted.
As far as I can gather, it wasn't tenanted, but
he used to use the wharf there. So on Hay Road
at Shulhaven Heads is a wharf and he used that
wharf to get all his produce to Sydney and things
back. Then they started a reserve out there and
that was in the 1930s. So it wasn't... Alexander
Hay didn't sell that land for a long time. It
wasn't actually sold off at the same time as
the tenant farmers. So that... And we really
don't know where the name Gerry Bailey came from.
I know the lady who wrote the book on Shoalhaven.
Heads says it was named a certain way, but Alan
Clark and I have never found that reference.
The reason I ask are because, obviously, the
maps with the land selling over those two 12
-month subdivisions. Yeah, they were later. In
the early days, it was called Gerry Bailey by
residents. In 1955... The residents of Jerry
Bailey wanted the name changed to Shoalhaven
Heads. So it was always known as Jerry Bailey.
The same as Crooked River used to be known as
Crooked River and now it's Jaroa. might look
up maps all for kids, they need to understand,
well, here's Gerry Bailey map, what does this
mean? But it was called. The locals referenced
it as Gerry Bailey. It used to be a road from
Bomaderry through to Nowra, from Broughton Creek
to Nowra. And it was in 1859, I think, they built
a road. But it all had to go through the Berry
Estate. So the burial estate had to approve of
giving land for the roads. And a lot of the tracks,
they were only tracks, only ponies used to go
along them because they used to cart their produce
on either side of a saddle on a horse. So they
only had to have a horse. So they didn't have
a big wide road until, well, they had to have
carts. They brought the carts in and then it
wasn't really... until the motor car came into.
But Strong's and the top of them, I think, were
the Harvey's at Jasper's Brush. They had to get
in and out. So they had to get all their produce
in and out. First of all, to get it to the railway.
And then the trucks used to have to come in later
years when the milk... Milk trucks used to come
to collect the milk, so they had to have the
proper roads then. How hard would it have been
for those properties in the higher elevations
to cart milk down? Very, very, very hard, and
I really don't understand why anyone would live
right on the top of something like that because
you only get the wind and then your slopes. I
mean, even today... You look at some of the houses
and the slope to get the car up into the garage
is so big. Yeah, I just don't know how they did
it. But that was the properties they wanted.
And as the Strongs, the Strongs are still on
that property. So it's good land. Well, the Boxalls,
the Richards up there, it's not a nice drive.
No, that's right. And even like Pestles Lane
and all those places. Pestles Lane was one of
the early lanes. And they had a couple of...
Bury estate cottages along there at one stage.
So Pestles, Richard remembers moneylenders. The
family were moneylenders. Do you know anything
more about the Pestles? I started writing the
history of the Jasper's Brush and so I've got
a lot on the Pestles. But Pestles, I don't know
whether Pestles was named after the family of
Pestles or the Pestle who died in the First World
War. Actually, I can't tell you any information
about that. And same as Boxall's Lane. It was
Boxall's Lane after Richard Boxall, who served
in the First World War. Well, they have their
own story on that, don't they? Yeah, that's right,
yeah. And it makes it difficult then for that
next... Well, you don't know where it was named.
It's a bit like... Well, Ray Strong, for example,
had two of his... grandfather's brothers on council,
and he feels that's why Strong's Road might have
been influenced to have been named that. It could
have been. It could have been. So where do we
get to saying yes or no? Sometimes you can prove
it. Sometimes the geographical names board. Today
you've got to go through a geographical names
board to get it gazetted. So a lot of the roads
had to be gazetted. So that's where you get some
of the names from. But other than that, it's
just that in the early days where I was born,
just go to Mrs Holland, you'll know where she
lives. They didn't have to give an address because
everyone knew everyone. So if they wanted to
go to Mrs Huntingdale, they'd just say, oh, down
at Mrs Huntingdale. So everyone knew everybody
and so they knew where they all lived. Because
they weren't really structured roads with signs,
were they? No. So Victoria Street in Bury is
a wide street because it's got the courthouse
and it's got the pavilion on the showground.
And so that was a bit wider. But I don't know
why it was wider because it never went to the...
There was no end to it at the end of Victoria
Street. So were the police active in... Ever
in those early years? Yeah, over in Pullman Street
in Bury they were. Opposite Pullman Street, there's
still a policeman's house there, up over the
bridge. And then they moved into next door to
the courthouse in 1895. So there was always a
police presence, yeah. Any names come to memory?
A lot of names, but not at the moment. Okay.
Why did they have policing, Barry? Because they
had a courthouse as well. So you've got to remember
that the courthouse is where you've got your
birth, death and marriage registered, as well
as all the other things for the land board or
anything that had to do with government. And
then the police station was there and you'd had
a jail. Because of all the... We're still the
same today. We've still got... Police stations
and jails, so, yeah. But before they went off
to Sydney or wherever they were taken after the
court case. How many pubs were there in Bury?
And did you go to the pub or...? I used to go
to the bottom pub. Alright, so the Kangaroo Inn
is now called the Bury Hotel and that was there
in the 1860s. That was the only pub in Bury at
the time. Then we've got the top pub, what we
call the top pub as well. Now, only ever the
two. A lot of them were from temperance. A lot
of them were in the lodges and they were mainly
temperance lodges. So, yeah, so they went to
church and they belonged to a lodge. Now, a lodge
in those early days, like the... Used to look
after widows and things, so you could get insurance
through them, so you could pay a bit of money
and your family would be looked after after you
died. And that's why the lodges came into being
in those small areas. So define a lodge, what
does it mean? The Masonic Lodge was different.
A Masonic Lodge is different to these other lodges
that they had in the early days in Bury. Were
they named? Yes, the Berry Lodge was Lodge Broughton.
And they used to meet in the Showground Pavilion.
Now, the Showground Pavilion was designed by
HG Morton, and he was in a lodge. And even though
the windows are all covered over now with board,
in the early days, you could see the triangles
from the Masonics, and all the Masonic symbols
were in the windows around the pavilion. and
inside, and you weren't allowed to go inside
that Masonic area, but then the showground now,
you can walk in, you've got their exhibits in
there at the shows. But the lodges in those early
days were mainly temperance, and the lodges would
have women in them as well, so they weren't just
like a Masonic lodge, and then the ladies' lodge,
they were all in together. And it was to keep
them off the grog. So the temperance movement,
was that big in the region? Yes. And can you
talk a bit about that historically? I haven't
done a lot of research on the temperance, but
it was around the same time as the women got
the vote, 1903, the women got really involved
in temperance movement. I don't know how much
down here. We had one lady. Her husband was a
minister and she was in the Narrow Red Cross
and she was a temperance. She was very big in
temperance, yeah. So define temperance. What
does it mean? No drinking. So when you say these
people were in lodges, were they there to sort
of, not always I would assume, but to dry out
type thing? No, it was a social gathering again
because they still had to have, if you didn't
like sport. Ah, yes. What did you do? And you
weren't allowed to dance. No. If you were in
the Wesleyan church, you weren't allowed to dance
or have music. Yeah. I think it was just a social
outlet as well. See, Red Cross wasn't around
during the First World War, so what did they
all do? They went on picnics. You saw a lot of
picnics and farmers' picnics and all sorts of
things. And remember, we didn't have electricity,
so you only had to be able to go during daylight
hours. You couldn't go anywhere at night because
you had to take a kerosene lantern or a candle
wouldn't go anywhere. And I think that they needed
somewhere social, so it was a lodge. We call
it a lodge now and they called it a lodge then,
but I think it had the different connotations.
Yeah, the Masonic Lodge is completely different
to the lodges they had then. Is the foundations
here sort of fairly strongly... Church of England
in the Shoalhaven with all the original settlers.
Do you remember? Because I was impressed David
Berry left land for four denominations, which
I thought was progressive of him. Oh, yeah. So
because my background as a child, I was raised
in a Catholic parish, and I noticed that he gave
land to the Catholics to start a church. Yep.
And other denominations around the same time.
Yes, so most of his little villages had a church.
So we go from... Foxground had a Wesleyan church.
Broughton Village had a Wesleyan and a Church
of England. Berry had the four. Jasper's Brush
only had the one. Maroo had one and they were
called union churches. So they were different.
Even though they were called Wesleyan, the two
churches built by David Berry at Greenwell Point
in Maroo are brick churches. They were called
union churches so that anyone could use them.
That's what that means. Well, I presume that's
what that means, so that they all had different
ministers could go there at different times for
their congregations. AI. The AI Centre. Artificial
insemination centre. So it was a big thing for
Berry. Artificial insemination came in and they
used to have people from all over the world come
and look at the artificial insemination centre.
My grandmother used to board people who came
from overseas. So we had an Indonesian there
and we've had... Other people used to stay in
her... She had a room and she'd bought it and
rented it out to them. And they'd come and learn
at the insemination centre. Yeah, but they had
a big bull out the front. And as you drove into
Bury from Nowra, there was a big sign, milk.
But you don't see those anymore. And the Artificial
Insemination Centre closed. It became a university
and then became a religious venue. So I don't
know what it's used for now. Where was it located?
On the Princess Highway at Bury. Was it a research
centre sort of thing? Yeah, it would have been
a research centre and they had all little buildings,
like little kennels for all the cows. I don't
know what they called them. Pins. Yeah, pins,
but they were wooden pins and the cows would
be there because I suppose they had to use them
for their research. The bull yards. Yeah, so
that was a big thing. And I think that was brought
in by McIntosh, Bruce McIntosh from Woodside
Park. Yeah, I think that's where he started that.
I'm not sure, but I'm pretty sure it was in the
50s. Do you see bull yards in the landscape as
a young girl? No. So the AI Centre, well, can
we talk about what you might know about the Illawarra
Shorthorn? Air shears and Illawarra Shorthorns.
Yes, very popular all the way down the coast.
But they sort of, they must have AI'd, like they
must have sent, like those bulls must be all
over the world. At that time, they must have...
They used to import a lot, but then they used
to have... I know that Pritchard at Numba, he
was one of the first to import cattle from Holland
and Frisians. Station Street, Jasper's Brush.
Is that now called Jasper's Brush Road? It could
be, but it was the road that led to the station.
There was also a wharf at Jasper's Brush. There
used to be... There's a big building. There was
a big building at Jasper's Brush and it was the...
..part of the butter factory. It had to be close
to the railway station. And that's why you had...
Where you've got lights now at the railway stations,
you always had gates for the other people to
cross the railway line. So you always had...
families who were employed as um opening the
gates at the railway crossings but now you've
got lights and we've got nothing at jasper's
brush now so yeah and you haven't got a railway
station at omega either in omega you went into
jerongong when the road in those days the road
came from koyama all the way down um miller's
flats turned off at omega went through jerongong
itself and came out and then the road went to
either Crooked River or Broughton Creek. And
that all changed in the 1930s and they took the
road away from Gerongong and became the Princess
Highway. It was the main south coast road. So
is it Jasper's Bus Brush Creek where the wharf
would have been? Yeah. They had to have a wharf
to get their stuff down before the railway came.
Yes. So it went down. So it went down, you mean
it went down the river? Yeah, so it went down
to the river. So it was picked up at the river,
yeah. How'd it go down the river? Got no idea.
But then you look at photos and you've got, for
Broughton Creek, you wouldn't think that anything
could move up there now, but it does. It did
in the early days. It had punts going up and
down, yeah. What sort of reputation did Alexander
Berry have? Through your research? Through my
research, Alexander Berry wasn't down here very
long. He moved up. Because him and Wilsdon Craft
came down in the early days, Wilsdon Craft didn't
live here. And Berry moved to Crow's Nest. He
didn't come down. And all these letters in the
Mitchell Library to David are telling David or
John or William off for not doing the right thing
here and the right thing there. So he had really
nothing to do with the estate. And it was passed
on. And David Berry was really the one that pushed
it. But David Berry, there's no portrait anywhere
of David Berry. So he must have been a very quiet...
Humble. Yes, man. And he thought of his tenants.
And that was that he wanted to give them something
because they'd done so much for him. Yeah. I
liked the sound of him when I've done a bit of
reading on him. Yes, it's just sad that there's
no photos around. But I have never found them
and the Mitchell Library have looked for me too.
I've got a surprise, a little Vox Pop from a
fifth generation farmer. Just a quick Vox Pop
with John Miller. John, how far back is your
farming roots in Berry? Well, in Berry they go
back to... Well, my grandmother's people settled
up in Bundiwala in the valley there at Berry
Mountain in the 1850s and out of Jasper's Brush
in the 1850s. But the Millers didn't move down
to the Berry Saldera estate in the late 1890s,
but we were in Gerringong in the 1830s. So we've
been... continuously milking cows since about
1832 up in Jerringong and then down the Bury.
And what was your mother's maiden name? She was
a Morrison. Oh, sorry, the family you're talking
about. They were Chisholms, and a Chisholm married
a Nylunds out of Jasper's Brush and a Hannigan
down at... They went back to Hannigans down at
Bolong and, yeah, fairly well established. They
went back to the mosses that settled Moss Vale,
so they were sort of fairly early settlers, the
Morrisons. We'll have to... When I engage you
later in this project, we'll draw it all up,
I think, because it's always so interesting.
There's so much connection, as it is with dairy
farming, because in that era, you know, it's
fairly obvious social life and marriage and transport
all connected to marrying people that weren't
too far away. We're going to be engaging you,
I am, about the cooperative as well. So there's
some fairly significant... for the Shoalhaven?
Well, we've had a pretty strong connection with
the Berry Rural Co -op for many years. My father
was the director for 40 -something years and
then I'm still the director for 24 or 25 years.
So we've had a really strong connection with
the carpets, pretty close to our hearts. And,
yeah, we've done a lot of work to try and...
use the co -op as a tool to benefit farmers and
their families. And I've come across names like
Leslie Crawford and the Crawfords who were directors
back in the mid to late 19th century as well
perhaps. What can you say about the Crawfords?
So Gus Miller who we had a chat to recently mentioned
the Crawfords not only as amazing rodeo buck
jumpers but Yeah, tell me about the Crawfords
briefly. Well, they came to the area roughly
when the Berry Estate got sold up and I think
there were five of the siblings, there were five
brothers. They all got on, their father got them
set up on their own farms. They were all great
musicians. They all played in the Berry Band.
One of the boys still, one of the sons of Les
still plays, Owen. He's been in the band about
75 years. So it's, yeah, and everything was very
community back then and the Crawfords had a great
hand in whatever was happening in the community.
But, yeah, there's not many of them left now,
though. And here we are at the showground, of
course. We can hear the cicadas and a bit of
traffic. What are you currently doing here? You've
been busy because we're gearing up for the Berry
Show in a couple of weeks. Tell me about your
role. Well, I've got the privilege of being on
the committee of the Berry Show Society. And
for the past two shows, this will be my third
show that I'll be playing the role as president.
So I'm quite excited. get another great show
on the ground and, yeah, just proud to serve
the rest of the committee and the show society
and do whatever I can to play my part in making
sure it's a success. What do you think about,
you know, the first leg of it is the podcast
and I'll do the best job I can, but how important
is it that we try to capture in a contemporary
21st century way, you know, the stories and the
memorabilia and the facts of daring in the Shoalhaven?
I think, look, it's vitally important. It's essential.
It mightn't be important for somebody who's coming
out of the city and doesn't understand what a
major role dairy farming and agriculture played
in the community, but it was the absolute lifeblood
of the community, of the whole area at one stage,
of the whole colony. There's so many great stories
and characters and things that happened. It's
just a shame. After a couple of generations,
that's gone, basically, all those stories. It's
just a shame for it all to be lost. I just think
it's a priority to be able to record all that
history and have it there for descendants of
the people. They may have moved from the area,
you know, generations ago, but I know at the
Berry Show we're honouring... We have a show
of treasure and we're honouring one of the local
vets who fled the Nazis in World War II and came
out as a refugee and got himself re -qualified.
One of the farmers here had influence in the
political scene and helped to get those refugee
vets. re -qualified and every co -op, Albion
Park, Gerringong Berry now had a European vet
and they were our first vets basically and before
that the blacksmith was the local vet too and
you know and he's got an amazing story. He's
raised his family in Bury and they've all moved
away but they come back every year. So it's going
to be great to have them back here honouring
their dad and, you know, it's, yeah, that's the
sort of thing we like doing and this is an extension
on that. Yeah, that's right. And because there
are so many important facts that the larger region
and Sydney, the metropolis, the nation, internationally,
Things like the Illawarra, your particular breed
that was so important at that time, the Illawarra
shorthorn. You've got the cooperative contribution
that you were leaders. You were leaders in artificial
insemination. And all of that needs to be valued
and honoured for future residents, really, don't
they? Absolutely. And, you know, it's been the
starting point of a lot of, you know, agriculture
takes for granted I suppose that the you know
in the present day you know it's all about technology
and you know efficiencies and everything else
but the starting point of everything started
pretty well here in Berry they imported the first
Holsteins they developed the AIS just up the
road at Kiama and the first Guernseys were imported
to Berry and The first artificial insemination
centre in the 50s was started at Berry and George
Boris, who we were just talking about, he was
ahead of his time collecting semen and storing
it and running it around farms and, you know,
inseminating other cows. He was a pioneer and
all that sort of stuff. So a lot of, you know,
technologies and techniques. that are used today
all around Australia, around the world, actually
started in this region. So, yeah, it should be
documented, I think. And, yeah. And it's people
like you whose voices can talk about those people
that are no longer here. So that's what's also
so important. And, look, thanks for your time.
We'll engage you a bit later. I look forward
to the show. And, yeah. Thanks, John, for your
support. Pleasure. Turf Co have supported this
episode. They're our biggest agricultural employer.
They've been operating for 40 years. Thank you,
Gavin Rogers. Much appreciated. Episode 1 and
future episodes are available to hear on my website
under the podcast menu, theresesweeney .com .au.
There'll also be a few photographs to view. Just
follow the directions. While you're there, check
out my business menu and view my services offered
in digital media and paper for books, recordings
and documentaries on life stories. Join me next
week for episode two, The Marshalls in Pestles
Lane with David Marshall. Thank you for listening.
Till then, take care.