Welcome to the Deep Rinter Movies Podcast. My
name is Stephen T. Hanley. I'm the founder of
Deep Printer Movies. We program good movies around
London and New York. We release soundtracks and
books and record a podcast which you are listening
to. Today on the podcast I'm joined by Benny
Safdie, writer, director of the new movie The
Smashing Machine and co -director of such bangers
as Uncut Gems, Good Time, and my personal favourite
Safdie Brothers movie, Heaven Knows What. This
was a great chat. Really fast and loose. We got
into a lot of things about his love of folk music,
his love of physics, and I should explain because
we don't do video. Benny holds up a copy of Daddy
Long Legs, the Australian edition, which he explains
his crazy audio, the wrong audio. and I tried
to trump him by showing him my copy of an ex
-library DVD edition of Daddy Long Legs but Benny
wins. And the only other thing I need to mention
is toward the end there was a viral photo going
around of Benny during the release of Daddy Long
Legs where he was outside IFC growing a sandwich
board advertising the movie all day and for fun
he shows me his new sandwich board for The Smashing
Machine where he stood outside the theatre recreating
that moment from many years ago. This is a great
chat. This is me and Benny Safdie. watching Megadoc
whilst I was waiting for you. Amazing. How are
you? I'm good. I'm good. I was talking to your
friend Oscar Boycent earlier. Oh, no way. Yeah.
I was just complaining that I lost my copy of
Heaven Knows What and now it's discontinued and
I get competitive and I was in one of my eBay
bidding wars and I Wow Pound which is Twice what
I bought for originally and must have learned
out but You know what you know what the real
collector's item is and I'll let you in on it.
Oh don't tell me is it the Death star the ninja
star vinyl. No. No, it's not. Oh shit. Oh Here
it is, this is the real collector's item Let's
see if you can see it. There we go. OK, wait,
wait, one second. This might impress you. I'll
see your copy and I'll raise you. But do you
know? I see. But do you know why mine is more
of is a collector's item? No. Oh, is this the
one with the crazy gunshot sounds? Yes. Oh, this
is this is the this is the the gunshot. printed
to the dvd the australian dvd it was printed
put out in theaters and here it is it's actually
on the dvd so that's nuts i don't need did you
ever work out how that happened was this like
uh it was we so early on we didn't really have
like um it was a it was a very small uh international
just like uh film distributor like one of those
persons who like the sales agent and so everybody
just all these little companies reached out to
them for the movie and they just said yes and
didn't follow up in some way and so somehow war
movies music and effects track was put to our
film so there's no music and effects that we
added so all of the music in the movie is gone
and it's all this like swooping violins and machine
guns. Okay, that's even I thought my public library
copy was cool. But that's even I love that is
that is cool. But this one is people because
people don't know that the Australian DVD actually
had that it was official release that way. That's
crazy. That should be like a I remember when
one movie was a pretty odd movie. Europe Euro
trip. The director when was in Thailand and saw
camcorder bootleg on sale of his movie so he
made it a dvd extra so you can watch so i wanted
i wanted to put it on the criterion but they
they didn't they didn't do it that would have
been yeah that would have been easy for crazies
dvd extra what's the wrong version yeah watch
the version and which actually because it was
pirated that was the only version that existed
for like eight years So I'd see people referencing
it everywhere and coming up to me and talking
about the extreme sound design that we did on
it. I was like, what are you talking about? That's
crazy. So I always ask my guests, what kind of
teenager were you? What kind of movies and music
were you into? I was into The Grateful Dead.
I was into Bob Dylan, early folk music. intensely
by myself. I didn't have that many friends. I
kind of, I loved school. I liked learning. And
so I maybe had one or two friends and that was
it. I didn't really go out and do a bunch of
stuff. And so yeah, I was into physics and dark
matter. And yeah, I guess I like I willingly
took a stand, I guess against it. It was like
my way of rebelling was to not go out and party
and do very well in school. Yeah, that's relatable.
It's kind of funny. I was chatting to someone
the other day and they were like, you know when
you're younger and you're just going out and
getting fucking wasted every night and partying
and I'm like... No, but I saw it in movies. I
know about it. Other people did that, but no.
But then looking back, I'm kind of I was quite
impressed with my story. I had a group of friends
who were just got way into like, you know, let's
hang out in the park and just drink all day.
And I was like, that's so fucking depressing.
I'd rather go to like see a movie or something
like. Well, you go to you do your weird art movie
shit. We're going to keep trying liquor stores
until we get served and then drink warm beer,
probably. And I was like, God bless. I think
it was it was I was probably maybe I was I guess
13. That's teenager, technically. I think at
that point, I had saved up some money to buy
the Evelyn Wood speed reading course on cassette
tape and. and i was attempting to learn how to
speed read and i think it actually messed me
up for the rest of my life because there's all
these weird rules that they have to try and get
you to read faster but it's not you're not actually
reading so it's a shame but yeah you know so
much people do it you know so much swimming in
the lake or kind of more just doing like speed
laps yeah it's nice to get lost in the preposition
what made you want to do that was was that just
like i was always i was always a very slow I
liked reading and I was always like slow at it.
Not slow but I would take my time and I thought
oh I wish there was a way to like speed this
up to get more books. And my mother would read
really quickly and I was so like how did she
do that? Yeah I have friends who like devour
a book a week and really or less and I'm like
I'm on chapter 10. Yeah exactly it's like what
I do like is when I'm reading a book and I get
close to the end I like to finish it in a place
where I could just kind of settle. I don't like
finishing it outside, you know? Yeah, yeah, for
sure. Where were you, where does all this folk
music come from? Where, who are you getting your
music recommendations and stuff from? Um, it's
interesting because like, well, it was like,
because I was into, um, The Grateful Dead, it
was like, it was, it was an earth, like you,
you kind of like branch off into, I did a lot
of, I was part of this, uh, CD trading company
called etree .org. It was on the, it was early
internet and it was message boards and you'd
go on and you'd see, I would go to the, who,
who was at the, the rat dog show at the Beacon
Theater on like this date and you'd find somebody
who had recorded it and you'd email them and
you'd say, hey, can I get that recording? And
they'd say, of course, just send me two CDs and
postage. So I would send them a blank blanks
and postage and they would send me back the album.
And then because I was starting and then you'd
have a list of your concerts and recordings that
you had and people would email you and you would
do the same for them. It was like a community.
And so I remembered people would say, hey, I've
got this cool thing. If you want to send me an
extra CD, I'll give you like the origins of this
or this bootleg of Bob Dylan or this. So I had
I had a lot of early Bob Dylan bootlegs before
they came out on the bootleg series. I had an
alternate Abbey Road because I love the Beatles.
So I had all of the Escher tapes before they
came out. It's really awesome. And it was amazing
because that's like that kind of thing is gone
now. Yeah. You know, but like literally I would
be I would just send CDs in the mail to this
random person in the middle of the country. And
three weeks later, I get it back with like a
handwritten thing. sadly I don't have my book
anymore of dcds because you lose that stuff over
time but it was really cool and then eventually
when you had like a collection of people were
reaching out to you it was a nice it was nice
but I the other thing I remember I had like um
I was so I saw Bob Dylan in 2002 at Madison Square
Garden and he played something the day George
Harrison died and he never played anything that
was like out of never even talked to the audience
and so when george harrison died i was like he's
got to say something this was like his good friend
and he came out and he sang something and i desperately
went on the message boards to get that and i
got it but now it's actually available on youtube
somebody like it's amazing there's like this
like three camera setup from like the stands
where they captured the song it's a very it's
a beautiful version Yeah, I really miss that
early internet era where everyone was a lot kinder.
I remember when I went to put on my sport I'm
going to a Sonic Youth concert tonight and someone
said The t -shirt I wanted was sold out at my
show, but if you see it size s i'll paypal you
yeah exactly post it to me if you if you get
the chance and i was like i love the fact here's
20 pound to a stranger and i'm just gonna hope
the t -shirt will turn up and obviously i i did
i did but that was such a nice era or just people's
fan recordings of shows and stuff like that it
was yes it's it was Yeah, and then so that's
kind of like so you'd build up like people would
say Oh, do you like this and I've like never
heard it and then you'd kind of Get into that
and then I had a teacher who was also a photography
teacher who I'm still close with is my friend
he was into early folk music, you know, like
the the Smithsonian recordings by is it Harry?
What's his name Harry? I'm looking it up, Smithsonian
Folk Recordings. They're great. It was, so it
was, what's his name? Let's see. Harry Smith.
So he had all, so just like, so he would put
me onto this and then, yeah, you know, and then
it was just like you'd somehow like, It's interesting
because yeah, now music discovery is so different,
you know, but it is nice like when when you'll
get like a recommendation from somebody and they're
like, wow, this is cool. Yeah, or even when I
used to go to the I grew up in the 90s. I guess
my first kind of exposure was like grunge and
shoegaze. And I'd go to the record store. my
mom would let me pick a CD and I'd be picking
up like maybe like two Sonic Youth albums and
like all right this one's got Dirty Boots on
it which I know is really cool but this one is
going to be the better record. Yeah. On a whole
and I'm not sure or the same when I got into
like Bob Dylan it was like I know Blood on the
Track is going to be the one but I really like
that song I heard on the Big Lebowski. Yeah.
And I'm sure this is yeah and like I don't know
which is better I don't want it to get and then
and then whatever you get you got to sit with
it exactly and then that's and then and you can't
like and I remember making mixtapes I'm like
okay I got I want to listen to all this stuff
so I'd go through and make a mixtape and then
I was really big on because I because I was big
on making mixes for myself when mini discs came
out oh you can you I had I had the deck that
plugged into the stereo and I could record onto
it so I had like a whole That's what I did with
a lot of them. I recorded them on the mini just
so that I could have it on the go. And then when
mp3s came out, I remember there was this thing
called the yet pay. I don't know if you know.
No, it was like a really little thing. And the
only song that I could have on it was Hurricane
by Bob Dylan because it was a long song and it
filled up the entire thing. And I was like. Yeah,
this is not I didn't like it because I couldn't
have any songs. And then there was this thing
called the creative nomad, which was this huge
looked like a CD player and it had five gigabytes
of music. So yeah, no, I that's the thing is
I've always loved music deeply. And it like it's
as a way to like, yeah, kind of get through the
world in a way. If I didn't have it, I don't
know what what the world would be like. And when
did you did you Did you and Josh always know
you wanted to make movies or did you? The thing
is is like there was there was a moment when
well, I wanted to be a physicist I was like all
in I loved dark matter. I loved Elementary particle
physics. I liked Studying it and I was part of
this like extracurricular class, which was essentially
like double high school So I would like go I
would learn with this teacher I hooked up when
he was at Columbia University at the time and
then I had this physics teacher who would walk
me through and I would read papers and try and
understand it and the whole goal was to explain
what you learned to the class so you would learn
it in a way that allowed you to teach it to everybody
and I had such a good time teaching to people
that I thought oh that's what I want to do in
life you know so I was pretty sure of that. but
when it came time to go to school I was getting
more into movies with Josh and then also just
like Buster Keaton, Andy Kaufman, I did a bunch
of stand -up in high school so I was like really
into this idea of like creating fake realities
that was really interesting to me and that was
kind of hand -in -hand with physics and I tried
to go to school for both but if you're gonna
do something you have to do one thing you know
so yeah eventually picking film you know and
and here i am but i definitely i was like there
is an alternate world where i went to like read
college and studied classics and worked at the
nuclear reactor that they had over there you
know i that is a part of me that like i think
about you know and One thing that I forgot about
is you guys, I think, did you guys have a rule
that you'd try and make one short film a year?
Or have a sort of discipline? I don't know if
it was exactly a rule, but we, it was the kind
of thing where we tried to do, we would put,
because we were part of like a group of people
that we all rented a space together. And the
idea was that we would all help each other out
on things. And yeah, you would try to make a
movie and post it, because this is before YouTube.
So I was running the whole website, built the
whole thing and... we'd post our videos online.
And in order to keep getting traction, you'd
post new stuff. And so you'd really try to make
new things every now and then, just to kind of
keep it fresh. And I think what that did is it
allowed you to experiment and be a little bit
less precious about certain things, which can
get in the way is if you keep waiting for stuff
to happen, then you never do anything, you know,
so. If somebody would like, so we would be like,
okay, what can we do with this? You know, okay.
Like, and that's like, when I would go to stand
up, I realized, oh, I could basically make, I
get a lot of source footage because that back
VHS camera with the Gotham comedy club logo or
the comedy cellar logo, that's pretty awesome.
Like, so that's built in production design, built
in look with the VHS. People are going to think
that this is a real guy. So I would try to post
it online and trick people. into thinking that
this was a real comedian and that was my goal
with that. So were you like bombing deliberately
or? Well the thing is yes I would be I was a
terrible comedian but the point was I didn't
want people to think that I was bad on purpose.
I wanted people to not know that I didn't realize
I didn't know what was funny or not. You know,
so the first guy I had was this kind of delusional
comedian, Zach Muldin, whose life was actually
a little bit sad. And he thought, okay, I could
just tell jokes about my life. And he would,
and he was like, kind of like, they're silly.
Like he'd be in the doctor's office. He's, you
know, I was in the doctor's office the other
day and I'm sitting in the waiting room and the
doctor comes in, walks right by me. I was like,
all right. sitting in the waiting room, maybe
35 minutes reading a magazine. Doctor comes out,
takes another patient, walks right by. I'm thinking,
this is really strange. But another hour and
a half goes by. I'm still sitting in the waiting
room. And I finally say, you know what? I'm done
with this. I go right up to the receptionist.
And I said, hey, can the doctor see me now? And
she says, now that you've taken off the black
cape, I can. And he's serious. This is, in my
mind, He actually was sitting in a doctor's office
with a black cape over him, and nobody knew who
was there. So that's one element. And then from
there, I developed another guy called Ralph Handel,
who I would do, who was like a young businessman
from Wall Street who had a really normal life.
And he figured, oh, comedians just get up and
talk about their life. I could do that. So big
movie out this weekend, huh? Smashing Machine?
How many of you have seen it? And you'd hear
like, hey, raise your hands. How many? There's
about four. How do I know? Just count it. So
anyway, I went to the supermarket the other day.
What'd I buy? Anybody? Frozen pizza and a pack
of gum at the checkout aisle. So speaking of
pizza, and then I'd go on seven minutes like
that and unfazed. unflappable I would go in as
the guy and I would I had all this cologne on
and so I was and I would have these like really
like I had horrible like pit stains but like
very realistic so that I would get hot I would
take off my jacket I put my hand up all it was
a whole thing and I had a hot dog ketchup stain
on the shirt and I would say hey everybody like
notice the stain on my shirt how did it happen?
And people would yell out whatever and I'd be
like no actually was I was eating lunch the other
day Got a hot dog. Then what went to take a bite
hot dogs slipped out fell on my shirt. It's true
Where are these where are these videos? They're
actually still on YouTube. This is what's so
amazing So like if you go to YouTube and you
type in Ralph handled you can find him and there's
there's I'm looking at right now. I uploaded
it in 2006 so that's almost 20 years ago which
is crazy to me that like so you can go on you'll
see like Ralph Handel from at the Gotham Comedy
Club or or Bean Town you know right so doesn't
even become like short films or basically yeah
and I and they're supposed to be watched in full
you know and then of course I made these like
fake pseudo documentaries about the characters
and his their lives and edited in with the footage
that I the real footage that I would capture.
So it was this kind of weird. So early on, I
was really kind of obsessed with like mixing
reality and fiction. Did you ever consider becoming
a straight actor per se? Or did you always? Yeah,
always. The thing is, I always liked acting.
And but at the same time, it was like in school,
like when I went to school for film, I was like,
okay, well, I wrote this story and the story
is based on me. And I want, I'm like, I'm pretty
sure I can do it. So why don't I just play the
part, you know? And that was kind of the first
thing I did. And it just kind of, it just helped
me like work with actors and understanding how
that is. And then it to the point where it was
also just, it was just easier. It's like, okay.
I could just I could tell somebody else all this
stuff, but I have to find the person all this
stuff and I think it'll be more interesting if
I do it because like It would get and I could
get more complicated, you know with what I was
going through But then like from there so kind
of went hand in hand and then good time was like,
oh, yeah I this is I'm this character is a part
of me, you know, like I said, you're like, oh,
what did you do? Early on and I was by myself
I, my room was 60 degrees. I was really particular
about if drawers were closed, they had to be
in the exact right places. I didn't like anybody
coming in and bothering me. It was like, so there
was a lot of him inside of me. And it was just
kind of like imagining myself ratcheted to another
degree. And so I was like, okay. Um, but then
from there it was just like, yeah, I really do
love the craft of it and getting to a place of
like, feeling an emotion that isn't yours, and
that's kind of what drives me on both sides,
you know? So I was thinking, I've been, I get
occasionally invited to have a tiny walk -on
on things, and I remember I was on Lena Dunham's
show recently, and the director said, hey, just
wander around, we're in a bar, wander around,
and after a while just head through the door.
and then I got so nervous wondering that I was
like I don't know anyone's marks because at one
point someone the one of the main characters
bolts through one of the side doors gets into
this huge argument I was like I got it I got
so into my head I'm gonna bump into her at that
time yeah I was just like I'm gonna destroy the
scene I'm gonna waste production budget and things
like that and it took a real while to just fucking
relax and own the space But when I was thinking
about you in Oppenheimer, I was wondering how
is it being on a set of that scale with a director
of that magnitude? It was, you know, it was it
was actually incredible, you know, because like
you get there and then I'm just like watching
Chris and Hoyta figure it out. Like they're just
like, OK, that like we would do the rehearsal
and then they'd be like, OK, how do we do this?
And I'd see them just kind of like huddled together.
placing the camera and I was like, wow, this
is, I remember there was one time where we're
in this lodge. It's like period piece from like
40s packed with two, 300 people. And I'm looking
at this, I'm gonna be like, oh, we're gonna be
here all day. Cause it was like seven scenes
in this place. And we shot mine first, like my
little section where like somebody's trying to
put a party hat on me. And it's like, What was
amazing is I every moment in a movie. I'll treat
it as if like it's the most important thing in
the world So this I got really angry in this
moment this guy trying to do this and it was
really fun because like I think Chris really
likes when like people like put it care, you
know, and so What we did that and then I just
got to sit and watch because we did the same
thing but then I would just watch them do the
rest of the scenes and Boyd just got this IMAX
camera on his shoulder. Bang, bang, bang, bang.
Chris like moving around. They're just like flying
through this thing. And we finish and then we
move to the next location, rehearse the next
scene, and then go to lunch. And I said, how
the hell did you do that? And it was like, it
was the craziest thing I'd ever witnessed. And
I was like, wow, that level of efficiency was
awesome. And also what that did for me as an
actor was like, oh, this guy knows what he's
doing. So you really feel comfortable performing
in an environment like that. And then I think
he said something about the car crash in Dark
Knight. And they did that in the first half of
the day. And that's something that would normally
be a long time, not that. So it's just like.
But again, it's not compromising anything, you
know. Is he just super technically proficient
or does he just know what he wants? But at the
same time, there's a there is an element of discovery
and there is a warmth that's there, you know,
and you're having fun and everybody's there talking,
you know, everybody makes a big deal. No phones
on set, no this. But I think that there's something
really beautiful about it in the sense that.
you get to know the people that you're around
you talk to them and it just kind of everybody
kind of folds into this kind of group you know
and once you're all there it's like on that one
it was interesting because i would come in and
out a lot so i would come back and then um i
would hoiter called me the super you know like
because that's what i wanted to create the super
bomb but i was myself like this larger than life
person who would just storm into the room and
the super was here. And it was really, it was
a fun environment. But that's what I, what I
took from that was, oh, you can have something
on that scale and it doesn't need to feel like
that. And I thought, isn't that really cool?
That is really cool. Yeah. Did he have the Casio
view? Oh yeah. His monitor. I love it. Yes. Make
it mix. Is this, my theory was that if it, that
kind of thing when like bands would try out the
album in the car stereo of if it sounds good
on this or sound good on anything. Yeah. Is that
the idea for the Casio? Well, I think it's just
like it's it's purely it's like because when
you get these monitors and all this stuff, it's
very like there's a lot of other bells and whistles
on it. And that is literally just straight image.
And it looks a certain way. And it's like it's
like, for example, Like I'll take pictures. I
love taking photographs and I have a digital
camera and it's exactly the same company lens
so it's a digital Leica and I have a Leica m7
and I got I started being like, okay How can
I get this to look like that and I would take
it around but at the end of the day I know what?
One of them looks like just I know it's gonna
be this way and the other one I have to work
a little harder to to figure that out and I think
that's probably what goes into that is he knows
what that is and he can that's part of the process
you know I know this looks a certain way and
so that it's like it's out of the it's also you're
not getting caught up in Lutz and whatever even
though it's shot on film but like you can do
you're not getting caught up on any of that little
stuff you're just looking at what's straight
feed from the camera and it's also small and
portable and because like again it's like it's
interesting because like you're on set all the
time and I find that that's the way I love to
work too I like to be in the scene basically
that's why I ran boom is because I'm right there
with everybody I don't like the like there is
a place where people can go and see it you know
the monitors it's not I'm never there you know
so it's like and I find that really exciting
because you're there with everybody you know
What was different about directing solo this
time? How was it much different than previous
experiences or I guess you know, there's like
you don't have to have a discussion. Yeah Don't
have an argument about like I want to do this.
No, no, it's like so it's just simpler in that
sense But then there's a lot more things that
get that get complicated. So it's but what was
interesting is is I had already done a lot of
acting and then I made the curse with Nathan,
you know, so there was there was kind of this
process of me doing stuff on my own and having
to make decisions like that and be confident
in them. And so it wasn't really that I wasn't
really thinking about it in that way, you know,
because also this was a story that I really wanted
to tell and a really clear idea of how I wanted
to do it. And so that was just, that's all you're
thinking about. You're not thinking about like,
um, the dynamics of what might be, you know?
What was the first thing that drew you to? Was
it, was it, were you interested in UFC itself
or, or Ultimate Fireball? Was it just Mark's
story? Yeah, I love combat sports. I love boxing.
I went to an early like UFC fight with my stepfather
because I watched these fights, the tapes. Early
MMA was crazy, you know? It was like experimental
and wild and like very foreign. And so it's really,
it's an interesting time and it looks cool. And
I think when Dwayne actually approached us about
this after Uncut Gems, he said, watch this documentary.
I really like, I wanna play this guy. And I watched
the documentary and I really loved it. And I
thought, man, I wish I was there. I wish I was
there to like see this stuff. And so it really
just, and Mark as a character just kind of burrowed
into my brain as this kind of beautiful contradiction.
And I felt very connected to him. I don't know
why, like I saw him and I have pictures of him
like screen grabs from the documentary. And I
just felt like I understood him in a very deep
way. And I don't know exactly why. And as I got
to know him, you know, in the making of the movie,
I realized why. And it's weird how that happens
where you see somebody and you know that you
have a shared experience that's different, but
shared in an emotional sense. And I just like,
I could tell this guy's story and I need to for
myself. And it was the kind of thing that I just
never stopped thinking about it. And I knew Dwayne
knew the same thing and felt the same thing.
And again, I had the same thing with him, whereas
I'm talking to him. I just connected with him
in a really deep way. And I thought, oh, we could
do something really special together, you know,
and it just it was like there. And then like
Covid comes in and then other projects come come
along. And then it just kind of drifts away.
And I just kind of always thought, you know,
it would suck if I didn't do that. And I really
hate myself if I didn't tell that story. And
so when it came time to think like well what
do you want to do right now this is after the
curse you know when i wanted to make something
on my own it was just like well do that thing
that you want to that you haven't stopped thinking
about you know how was it approaching mark because
obviously i saw the documentary years ago i found
it in a blockbuster dvd bin and i saw i knew
the guys who made the music were kind of god
speed you black emperor post -rock adjacent so
i was like yeah post -rock and UFC, fuck yeah,
sold. Yeah. But it's a very heavy doc and Mark
doesn't, you know, and how was Mark about reopening
that story in that part of his life and all those
experiences? Well, what I, the first thing I
did was when I talked to him, I said, okay, this
is A, what I'm going through right now. And this
is everything that's happened in my life that
has Like everything the bad stuff this terrible
things People things nobody even knows I told
him and I said it's only fair that you know everything
about me because I if you're gonna trust me to
tell your story I'm gonna trust you with mine
and It really was like something that I felt
was necessary to do because I really wanted to
get to know him and I wanted to explore what
his feelings were and I wanted to make a movie
that put you in that place, in that time period,
put you physically there, you know, and made
you feel what he was feeling and made you understand
what he went through because for me it was like
a form of something I called like radical empathy.
I want to get inside this guy's head who I normally
would not be able to because that's how I felt.
I felt I understood this guy and I could learn
more about myself by being in his brain and I
said to him, there's going to be things that
we change. There's going to be things that aren't
the same. And I said, we're going to be talking
about it, and it's going to be externalized to
reach a larger group of people. Because I want
a lot of people to see this, because I think
it could be beneficial to them. I think it's
an awesome experience in a theater to watch it
and succumb to this kind of violence and extreme
sport. But then at the same time, like, oh, I'm
really connected to the guy in the ring you know
because I had one of the best experiences of
my life was I did a lot of boxing you know for
10 years maybe more and I still do it but the
gym I the gym I would go to closed during COVID
and they just reopened uptown but I got really
close to everybody there and it became this really
beautiful environment very loving and supportive
and you go in and somebody would say hey you
want to spar and be like they'd be like yeah.
and then you get in and get your ass kicked and
it was the greatest feeling in the world and
I knew from that moment that like I need to explore
this in a way that I don't think has been seen
and it really I want to show what this feels
like this kind of camaraderie in the face of
all that and as I talked to Mark and Boz and
Ryan and I realized oh wow this is true what
I'm experiencing is real that like they love
and support one another even though they don't
you think that this like it's this machismo world
but there is a lot of vulnerability there and
that's okay and there's strength in that vulnerability
you know it's like bruce springsteen you know
it's okay yeah you know and so um yeah so that
in that sense it was just like every it was it
was there was so much to this world that i wanted
to explore and live in and be in and um i love
the documentary and i want this to be like in
conversation with it you know and like to the
point where I actually just saw John Himes yesterday
he came to the premiere I was so excited for
him to see it and there's one shot where I'm
like I can't wait for him to see it it's the
shot of the scooter and he's like because why
the hell did you do that and he's like because
it's like I found the scooter I recreated the
scooter all the stuff and I even recreated the
shot you know and it's like He's like, what are
you doing there? And I said, honestly, it's like,
I wanted to see if I could recreate reality to
such a high level. And there's this document
that you created that's there. And I wanted,
that's how I discovered it. So I wanted you to
be able to do that, you know? And I think it
was really special. And he said, he goes, you
know, and I'm so proud that he said it, he goes,
that might be the most accurate biopic I've ever
seen in my life. Beautiful. Because everything
is there. And I saw it all. And he goes, and
you did it all. You got everything. And I'm like,
that's killer. Because that's, I wanted, there's
an early UFC shirt that said, as real as it gets.
Wow. In the back. Yeah. And I thought, that's
what this is going to be. You know? One scene
that's living in my head rent free since I saw
the movie that I'm, can't stop thinking about.
Emily Blunt when she's on the Gravitron. Yeah,
and then she almost pulls up the side and is
just pinned Yeah, what a fucking shot dude. That
was amazing. How did that? I know that was No,
no that was all written into the script and here
I'll let me see if I can find this picture I'll
talk to the videos recorded for this right? Yes.
Okay, great. So then this will see I can show
it But so, yeah, so basically in that moment,
I had originally wanted both of them to go on
the ride. And Dwayne is like, I get really...
Oh, that's when he's like... I get really sick.
My tummy, yeah. Yeah. He's like, my stomach,
I can't handle that. And I thought, that's amazing.
I'm changing the script because I think it's
beautiful that your tummy hurts, you know? And
so he's on the outside and she goes in. And it's
also right when he's sober. And it actually became
the perfect thing to represent where the two
of them are. And of course, one of my favorite
movies is 400 Blows. And I don't know if you
remember that. They go on and he goes on a gravitron
in 400 Blows. And I was like, wouldn't it be
really cool to reference that in this movie?
But I also thought like... Here, I'm gonna go,
you know, the maps feature on the phone is really
exciting because you can go right to the place
to find the picture. And so, yeah, so basically
that was in the script and I said, I tested it
because I really wanted, and with Miseo Bishop,
the cinematographer, we were like, okay, how
are we gonna do this? And I wanted it to be that
Gravitron with the alien and all the signs and
stuff. music blasting. And if you listen to it
in a theater, the Atmos, this thing is spinning
around. And if you hear the sounds moving around
you, it's really killer. But hold on, I'm like,
okay, where's this fairgrounds, the peony? So
basically, I wanted her to go on there. And it
was very important to me that she went upside
down because I wanted it to be literally that
they were on opposite in opposite places, and
I want to be in a place where the laws of gravity
don't apply, you know, and so here, so I remember
going on and here we go. So this, I did it, I
tested it because I wanted to know and so I was,
so here's another video with this is what the
stunt coordinator did. Oh, Jesus Christ. Outside
out, you can do them. So I really because I was
like, OK, again, part of the thing is, it's like
if I'm going to ask somebody to do it, I'm going
to do it. You know, I got on there to see, hey,
if it was like because I remember doing it as
a kid. But when you get older. something happens
to your ear, that stuff isn't very easy anymore.
So I remember doing it, the moment you lift your
head up, it just like gets shaken. And it took
me like two hours to recover from that. So I
realized, okay, we're gonna have to do that at
the end of the day, because like, it's gonna
be difficult. And so I did it and I showed Emily,
this is the position I would like you to get
into. And What's also amazing, I don't think
anybody knows that, but that's a wig that she's
wearing in the movie. It looks - Wow, yeah, perfect.
Insane. And so she has to do all that and not
have it get messed up, but me and Neil did an
incredible job with it because there's a specific
hair that existed at that time. It's just not
now. Different nutrition, whatever, everything
is different. But those are the things I wanted
to really nail with the movie. but so she's doing
it and she gets in there and I wanted her to
be sideways and then I wanted to cut back and
have her be upside down in all of those so you
see the progression yes and also what's amazing
is you know that that thing is moving at that
speed because the light through the side you
know that like and it was it was really cool
to to be able to do it and also like we had the
camera first which Maseo hooked up to a remote
head but he was in there with me and he had a
remote head and he's basically operating the
remote head because I'm like go on because you
couldn't see her feet and I wanted people to
see that she was actually doing it and so he's
like moving this thing but he had the idea which
was really great he goes we don't actually have
to move first because when you're in there and
it's locked it's with her perspective so you're
going to be moving and it's not going to look
like we're moving so before I'll ramp it and
I'll spin it so that we have that kind of so
that one was her still and we just moved the
camera and then the other thing was the camera
in there and moving at the same speed and it
was just it was a cool shot and I think it was
very representative of where they were and that
was very important to me you know we got time
for one last question and there's that amazing
photo of you going about with a sandwich board
when you're advertising a movie and aside from
our podcast one of our I got it right here coming
hell yes here it is so hey you never know I might
do it might do it again so With one of the things
aside from our podcast, we do screenings every
week and one of our big mission statements is
showing under scene movies and indie movies.
So I think we're basically the only people in
London who will show like Mike Balandick's movies,
Eugene's movies. Amazing. And God bless Matt
Grady and all the kind of exciting indies coming
out. It's such a chaotic landscape for distribution
and getting eyes on indie movies. I was just
wondering any Insights or advice or thoughts
on small movies breaking through? Well, that's
the thing is is like I originally did it on daddy
long legs because like IFC was really like putting
all their money behind Ken Loach and I was and
ours had a one week only at the IFC Center And
I knew that if your movie got held over, you
read these stories of like independent movies
playing in movie theaters. Like if it got held
over, that would be a huge achievement. And so
I made this sandwich board and I walked around
a bunch before handing out flyers basically because
like there wasn't a lot of advertising for the
movie and I wanted people to know that the movie
existed. And so I walked around and the other
thing I did was I stood outside the IFC Center
and I convinced people Don't go see that movie.
Sorry, Ken Loach. What Ken movie was it? What
was the one that came out in 2009 or 10? It was
like The Wind. When the Shakes the Barley. Was
it that one? Yeah, the Irish movie. Yes. No,
it wasn't The Wind that Shakes the Barley. I
wouldn't do that to Killian. Okay. It was another
one. 2010. What was it? It was, um, I forget
which one it was, but I know IFC looking for
Eric. Okay, fine. That's a less can work. Yeah.
So that was one where I was like, they were just,
they were, that was their, that was their horse.
And I wanted to be like, we're going to stay
in theaters. We're going to make it. And I literally
stood outside and convinced people and they're
like, well, who are you? And I'm like, well,
I made the movie. And they're like, what? And
the people at IFC Center thought, oh, isn't this
funny? This is like a little stunt. And you'll
be there for like an hour and get the picture
taken. But I was there every day for the weekend,
for every showing to convince people, because
I knew that this was the only chance. And then
even when I did this, like 824, I was like, oh,
let's go over to the IFC Center and recreate.
Because the idea was like, I want to show that.
Because somebody asked me, they showed me a tweet.
And they said, which had me in the sandwich board
and then me at the Venice Film Festival. And
they're like, what's changed? Yeah, great question.
What do you think has changed? And I thought,
not that much. I'd hope. I'd like to think that
I'm not that different, you know? And so then
I thought, well, I'm going to prove it. I'm going
to go out there and I'm going to do it again
because it's, I like being outside. I like talking
to people. And so I went from 68th and IC was
like, oh, we'll get a picture. I'm like. No,
not actually. It's H -24. We'll get a picture
and then we'll do it. I said, I need you to print
1 ,000 flyers, and I'm going to hand out 1 ,000
flyers today. And so I went 68th, then Times
Square, West Forth, Angelica. I hit up all these
places, and I just handed out flyers. I talked
to people. People blew me off, whatever. There's
something about getting put in your place that
I think is kind of necessary. Because you can
get lost. Oh my God, everybody's talking about
this. And you get out there and nobody's heard
about your movie. Nobody knows who the fuck you
are. Sorry. And it's like, that's the truth.
So it's like, I thought like, I'm going to go
and I'm going to do that. And it was really funny
because people would come out and be like, why
are you doing this? And it's like, I don't know.
I think it's important. Does it mean so much
fun? I could talk for ages. This was great. Great.
Thank you for your services to cinema. Really
appreciate you. Thank you. Thank you for your
services to cinema. Boom. That was me and Benny
Safdie. What a great chat. That was not the Benny
I was expecting. Physics, folk music. Bizarre
stand -up characters. Just a great chat. He had
so much good energy. That's it from me. Thank
you for listening. Thank you to Joshua Eustace
aka Telefon Tel Aviv for our beautiful music
and we will speak soon.