I love it.
All right, cool. So welcome back to another episode of Entirely MBA,
hosted by Entirely Media. I'm your host, Darion Robinson.
Sir, my name is Kyle Murph.
And today we have a special guest with us, Chris Lucey. How you doing, bro?
I'm doing great, man. Thanks for having me, guys. Love your show. And I'm honored to be here.
We've been talking over the last three, almost a month now, three weeks, almost a month now.
And just podcast aside, I know we had a conversation last week that I really enjoyed.
So I'm really liking you as a person. And that was the big thing I told you. Like,
even if we didn't do the pod, man, it was nice to have a connection like this with you. So I
appreciate it. I want to give some background information on ABCD, because, you know, even the
younger generation, that's before that time, they're hearing in the night, we don't know what the
hell that is. Right. So I want them to understand how reputable this program that you were part of
really was. So when we just look at just the beginning of that. So the way I see it is
initially was a sponsor by Nike, right? And Converse took it, then Adidas, and then ended
up being with Reebok. So right there for the largest brands touch this program, correct?
That is correct.
Perfect. Now, then when you talk about just players that came through this program,
I made a little list, right, that I need to get out there just so people understand the players
that came in. I'm sorry if I'm leaving some people off. Trust me. But when we talk about this, we're
talking about Kevin Garnett, Kobe Bryant, Jermaine O'Neal, Trace McGrady, Kwame Brown, Eddie Curry,
Sebastian Telafer, Gerard Green, then we talk about Marbury, Rashad Lewis, Mo Williams, LeBron,
obviously, Sean Limitsing, Josh Smith, Brandon Rush, Danny Green, Greg Oden, Kevin Love, OJ Mayo,
Drew Gooden, DeAndre Jordan, Monte Ellis, Charlie Villamene, Dylan Nueva, Lenny Cook, like, come
on, that's talent at its highest form of it. And it went through the program that you're involved
in. How did you even get involved in that? Academic Betterment Career Development, ABCD.
So this is Sonny's baby, right? This is this is all Sonny, right? He's the genius. Sonny came up
with the ideal of having a camp. Let's get the top 100 or so players. And let's give them life
skills. Now everybody has adapted to this. But it was Sonny's creation. It was his baby. He's the
one created this. Started in Princeton. And so I got involved because I had a player that didn't
make Sonny's round ball classic. Okay. And I called Sonny has a 23 year old kid complaining,
fighting for my kid that didn't make the game. And so he started. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait,
wait. I'm gonna stop you there. Yep. You said you were 23 at that time. I was 23. Just finished up
in Michigan State. And I was coaching high school, Southfield, Latham High School, we ended up
finishing 15th in the country had a really good year. Although we lost the state championship to
Saginaw High School shot on Saginaw High School, Marsha Thomas kicked our button the championship.
But, you know, I'm gonna keep it real. Ain't nobody gonna have no takes coming back. Hey,
hey, hey, you left out this. I'm gonna go and shut people out. Yeah. So I had a player, Mike Chappelle,
who was a parade all American and all American everything, but he didn't make the round ball
game. And at that time, it was called the magic round ball classic. And it was in Michigan.
We're in Michigan. And so he explained to me that Michael didn't come to ABCD. He chose to go to
Nike. And we needed to alleviate that issue moving forward. And so from there, I started being a part
of ABCD. And when I started, it was just coaching. You know, I was just a coach. And then quickly,
you know, shout out Gary Charles out of New York. Shout out Gary the seizure also out of New York.
These guys were the directors at the time. I wasn't a director initially. I eventually became
a director. But at that time, the first year or two, I wasn't direct. I was just a coach.
And it was that. That's how I met Sonny. That's how we built a relationship. He started sponsoring
my high school team, Southfield-Lathrop. And that's when that relationship grew on the
grassroots side as well. So the ABCD and grassroots and high school was all simultaneous, right? I'm
coaching high school, Southfield-Lathrop. You know, I'm coaching AAU, Michigan Mustangs,
Michigan Hurricanes. And I'm working with the ABCD camp. And then eventually, the round ball
classic as well. You know what made it really, really good? This is the thing. This was the
difference. So players that were, you know, no disrespect to shoes and all that, because it's
just sponsorship, right? Sponsorship can change, right? So you had Nike. Really, it was just Nike
and Adidas at that time. And then you may have guys that were non-affiliate. Players would be on the
other circuit, but still come to ABCD camp. Because at ABCD camp, we lined them up, right?
So Lenny Cook and LeBron, that face off, we line them up. Lenny Cook and Carmelo and LeBron,
line them up. That was the thing that, you know, at ABCD, we always made sure the top guys matched
up. Because Sonny would say to them, listen, you want to crack at LeBron? You want a shot at
Sebastian Telfer? You want a shot at Kobe Bryant? Come to camp. We'll make sure that happens.
That happens. It just was different, you know? And so a lot of other camps, if you will,
they wanted to protect the integrity of guys' rankings. So often they wouldn't line them up so
that, hey, you'd be the judge of character. What do you think? You think he's better or he's better,
but they're not playing against each other. At ABCD, we look, man, you got to put up or shut up.
And so it was different. And then it being in New Jersey, you got the crossover from New York.
I mean, the flavor, it had flavor. It was different. Did you ever have, was there ever a
situation, because you've seen Liny Cook, he talked about, you know, he's better than Bron,
or like how he felt that he was. Was there ever a moment where they did clash? Not clash in a bad
way, but where they went against each other and it was real just like, it was real gritty when
they went against each other? Liny actually had a good camp at ABCD. The problem is when he matched
up with LeBron, LeBron didn't have the stronger team. Liny Cook had Paul Davis on that team. He
had some others. LeBron had, and then Liny was a grade above him as well, and like two years older
than him, two or three years older than him from an age standpoint. But when they matched up,
Liny had a better team. He had a subpar game. It was solid. It wasn't like he was very bad,
but LeBron played very well. And when everything was on the line, they're down two points.
Everything is on the line. LeBron could easily go to the basket and score, you know, try to maybe
take it into our sudden death overtime, and you will. LeBron stops, pulls up a three, all the
pressure. The entire camp now has surrounded it, right? So all of the players, you know, you got
people in the stands, but the players in the camp, they have surrounded the entire court. So
everybody's there, right? And LeBron is a rising junior, right? So he's not even going into his
last year of AAU. His last year of AAU, he didn't even play. He broke his wrist. But with everyone
there, and back then all the scouts, so you got all the NBA guys, all the NBA scouts, we were the
first to have NBA executives coach the players. So now you're being coached by NBA executives as
well, right? He got an opportunity. Hey, LeBron, go create, go make something happen. Get to the
lane, get fouled. Nope. What does he do? Stops, reigns, pulls a three. Yeah, this is my court,
my house, my game, game, everything. And then, you know, guys just go crazy. So it was, yes,
he outplayed them. But it was also the atmosphere with it that was like, hey, man, this is a big
dog shot, right? This is a big dog right here. So in that, it just kind of hovered over Lenny,
right? That right there just kind of hovered over him the rest of the camp because that was,
it was brewing. I mean, he had maybe a better game against Carmelo when they matched up.
And obviously, Mello continued to do great things, but it almost like it's like it took the soul of
Lenny Cook, if you will, after that experience. No disrespect, because Lenny was a good player.
Right. Yeah, yeah. No, that's an excellent way to put it because we know as Hoopers, when someone
gets the best of you, especially in an environment at that high level, man, that sits with you for a
long time. If you never get your get back, that sits with you for a long time. No question.
Absolutely. Who's the one player that you can think of that surprised you the most from coming
through the ABCD camp? Looking back now. All right. So I'm going to talk about two guys,
right? The first one is Tracy McGrady. People don't understand T-Mac essentially was not
originally invited to the camp. Okay. T-Mac went to Mount Zion. Elvis and those guys kind of pushed
and pushed Sonny. And it's always like this, right? We always had 50 guys, oh man, he should be in the
camp. He's best. He deserves it. And maybe Sonny with his big heart, 10 of those guys will get in.
Right. So Tracy McGrady gets in the camp. He's unranked. Like we don't even know who this guy
is. Okay. Now the players got the jersey numbers. Like it goes up to like 218, right? So he's like
218 or whatever his jersey number is, right? So you're like flipping through the books. Who's
this guy? Who's 218 or whatever his jersey number is. Who is this guy? Oh, I never heard of this guy.
So first of all, he has a fantastic camp. His explosiveness, his aggressiveness, he's attacking
the rim, so on and so forth. The player in that class was Lamar Oden. Lamar Oden was the guy.
Okay. Right. Six foot 10, handled the ball, got it on the string, out of New York, doing everything
here. Here's this kid coming from Florida, right? Not a whole lot of exposure. The all-star game.
There is the dunk. Tracy McGrady comes through. First of all, to make the all-star game is
incredible, right? 20 guys. He comes through with the most explosive dunk. Comes down the lane.
There's Lamar Oden. There's all these athletic. Zenden Hamilton. There's all these bigs. All these
athletic guys. Tracy comes through with a windmill dunk. Boom! And it just sets the... See,
that's the thing. It was the atmosphere at ABCD. The whole arena just erupts, right? It just erupts.
And so seeing a guy coming from that far, unranked, to being some had him either one, two, three,
four, whatever, essentially number one player in the class, that's never been done. So that'd be
the first one. That was like the most exceptional, right? T-Mac. The second, Sean Livingston.
Oh yeah. People talk about him a lot. Listen, Sean Livingston. You had Sebastian Telfer. I mean,
you had the guards in that class. You had five exceptional point guards. And here's the thing,
now. It's New Jersey. So it's East Coast. So it's East Coast flavor. Everybody has
their crew there. Their AU coach, right? I'm there with my guys. So when my guys come, I'm there. I
might have five guys in camp. Sean Livingston is the only player from his team in camp. He's the
only one rated and ranked, right? So Footsui, I think was the name of their AU program. So coming
out of Peoria, right? He's not a Chicago kid. He's Peoria. So he doesn't have friends. He doesn't
have anyone like, you know, moving around with him. So me as the director, I ended up being the guy
that kind of, I would say kind of mentored him, if you will, for that week, right? I spent a lot
of time with him because he didn't have anybody to lean on. So I noticed that. I noticed that he was
by himself. And do you know how crazy it was around Sebastian Telfer? Like, can you guys
understand the fanfare around Sebastian Telfer at that time? I mean, it was second only.
And in Jersey too.
Everywhere. I mean, Sebastian's notoriety was second only to LeBron, who was a year above him,
right? So LeBron is now gone. Now we're talking about Sebastian. We're talking about that aid
group. Livingston left the camp, the number one point guard in the class, with all of the hype on
Sebastian and others, which was exceptional. I mean, like for him to come in and then not have a
cheering section. Like he didn't have a cheering section, you know, to go with him during that
week. And yet he dominated and he left the guy. And so obviously his career stamped his performance.
But yeah, Livingston, that one was kind of special because I think all of the guys in the
team was kind of special because I think all the odds were against him and he just bust right
through it. Yeah. I don't think a lot of people even know about his story too. Like he's a big,
like when people say like, what if they never got injured? Like he's one of those people that are
kind of like a slept on what if, if he never got that injury that he had. I mean, he's had a great
career, but people sleep on him. They need to do their research. Yeah. I agree. Absolutely. Sean
Livingston, obviously it worked out, you know, when he found the, the warriors, it was a fantastic fit,
but prior to that, his career hadn't reached the level of, of what the expectations were,
you know, when he was coming out of high school, you currently hold one of the longest streaks for
like a successful AU running program. Like talk about how that, how that started, how you started
that journey. So I was a coach of the Michigan Mustangs and the founder of the Michigan hurricanes.
And so if you go back some years now, I'm dating myself a little bit here,
but from, from 96 to 2005, we had a tremendous streak, you know, of all Americans. And in that
streak of 10 years, we had 17 all Americans. Now there's multiple all Americans, right? You know,
we like to look at, obviously because I was a part of the round ball classic. So there's the round
ball classic all American, right? There's the, you know, a lot of people know about the McDonald's
all American, right? There's the parade all American. There is now ESPN all American. And
in the past there was the rivals all American. So I could name 17 guys that were that. I mean,
um, and so that, that, that success trait, you know, being rated, you know, back in the 90s,
they started rating AU programs. So during that time we was always one, two, typically three,
you know, occasionally we might've been five or something like that. That was uncharacteristic,
but we were always essentially in that top five and, um, not to bore you, but if I would name
those guys, think about this, right? So we started with Mike Chappelle, all American, went to Duke,
Greg Graves, uh, Charlie Bell, Antonio Gates, football player. People don't know that Antonio,
shout out Antonio. He was an all American in basketball. He played in the round ball.
Brent Darby, who passed rest in peace. Jason Richardson, a lot of guys, obviously you guys
know Jason Richardson. Desmond Farmer went to USC. Then I had a unique year. I had Robert Whaley
and Kelvin Torbert who were number one and five in the class. So Robert Whaley and Kelvin Torbert.
From there went Anthony Roberson, Matt Tranon, Murray Sager. All three of those guys are in
the same class. All three of those guys were top 25, as well as Paul Davis, who was top five.
Then, you know, next year we went Olufamil Timi, Dion Harris. From there, Alex Legion,
and I want to mention one kid, there's going to be a point to this, Dar Tucker.
And then Anthony Crater. Now Anthony Crater was the number two rated point card behind
Brandon Jennings prior to John Wall going on that tear. Which is, I know there's been a lot of
discussion about John Wall and Brandon Jennings, but at that time Anthony Crater was the number
two. So during that time we had, you know, we had 17 guys, you know, that were all Americans. So it
was a great streak. It was a great time, you know, and a really good accomplishment. I could talk
about that for an hour straight. You know, it just depends on how much I want to go into it.
I got all the time in the world. So when we talk about having that many all American players over
that span of time, how do you personally deal with, and we've seen it, obviously we've been a part of
it, how do you deal with egos of players like that? So for me it was different back then. Okay.
All right. So let's, let's dive in that a little bit. Things have changed a lot. These kids,
I don't know how successful I could be with running the program right now because things are
different, right? They have so much more exposure, so many more things to deal with, to overcome.
First of all, social media. We didn't have social media in the nineties and early two thousands,
and it definitely wasn't, you know, at the level it is now. So that's number one. We had rankings
and we had things like that. For me, I strictly was state of Michigan. And, you know, the thing,
I always would find a player that had a certain characteristic, right? He was the type of player
in today's game, LeBron. He was a guy that people wanted to play with. You know what I mean? There
was always somebody like that, Antonio Gates, or, you know, or I might've had a football player. By
the way, I had several football players as a part of my team, which typically brought toughness.
But in regards to egos, obviously you got to have them in different positions, right? You
don't want to have two point guards, you know, and maybe a point guard, a wing forward, a three,
four, if you will, and maybe a big. You're selling them on an incredible goal of obviously moving up
the rankings collectively. In Michigan, we had unique dynamics because in the state of Michigan,
players can't travel like they can everywhere else. You guys hear about the tour that LeBron
took in high school where they went around and he played in California and he played in all these
different events as a high school team. Well, in the state of Michigan, essentially you can only
play schools from the neighboring state and it's a, you know, about a couple hundred mile rule
with that. The other thing is a lack for kids in Michigan was they couldn't play in all-star games.
So when guys played in the summer and they played an all-star game, Michigan kids couldn't do that.
So for me, selling with the Michigan kids, it was an opportunity for you guys to have the exposure
that you missed during the season. So now put egos aside and let's move up the charts together.
And, you know, it's a day-to-day thing. There's no science to it. I couldn't tell you that there's
one thing that I did that worked, but obviously it was about relationship, you know, that family
atmosphere, you know, doing some things outside of basketball, right? I'll give you an example.
We'd go play in California or we'd go to Orlando or something like that. We would go
to Disney. We would do things outside of basketball. A lot of kids or a lot of teams,
you know, they grab the players, they plan the tournament, they stick the kids in the hotel room
and they say, hey, do what you want to do, right? They just give them freedom. We were playing stuff,
right? We would go eat together. We would go formally have dinner together, similar to what
it would be like when they got to college. We would do something fun. We'd go go-kart racing.
We'd go to an arcade back in the day. We, you know, maybe go to an amusement park. We would try to.
We'd go to the movies. We'd go to a basketball game if it was in season during the spring when
you have, you know, tournaments in April and May, take them to a NBA game as well. So we would do
things like that together at the same time of playing in the tournament. So I think we had a
little bit different dynamic than most. So two questions with that. So why couldn't kids from
Michigan play an All-Star game? Is that just a rule that just randomly popped up or?
No, man, a Michigan high school association is different. It's been grandfathered in forever.
Really old school mindset. And it's just, it's just a rule. They just believe in
their thing is, you know, the player that wins a state championship, that guy, you know, they
put an emphasis on the state championship, which is the Final Four held at Michigan State University.
They believe, you know, they want to keep things, as they say it, pure. And so in their mind, if you,
I'm just telling you with, you know, their legislation, but something that should be changed
still hasn't been changed. And that had a lot to do with strategy. You know, if we get to talking
about strategy, some of the things I did different during the area, you outside of the things that
I've shared so far. You think it kind of holds some of the talent back or you work around as
being a coach and having different strategies to give them more exposure? It hurts them drastically.
And so over the years, especially since I have stopped coaching at AU, during my time, I had a
solution for it and I'll share that with you. But now you get a lot of kids that leave, they leave
the state, they go to prep schools, they look for different opportunities. So over the last 10 years,
the best players in Michigan, most of them have left, you know, so, you know, it's hurt,
you know, it's hurt the state, you know, the, the, the university, the Michigan, Mr. Basketball
is not the same as it used to be. You know, the Mr. Basketball in the state of Michigan used to be,
you know, that top 10, top, you know, top five, top 20 guy, Chris Weber, Jalen Rose, you know,
Jason Richardson, guys like that, Maurice Taylor, Mateen Cleese, others, but it's different now.
The thing that I did that was different is this. And it's probably a good strategy, maybe for some
of you guys. So I was the first one to really take young guys and play them up. So what do you mean?
So what do you mean? You got your 17 and under team. You have a 17, your 16, and maybe a 15,
if you have an AAU program, right? Typically you take your best players and you put them in the
age bracket that they're in. So me, I looked at it totally different. I said, you know what,
17 is, is the age group that gets the most exposure. It is the one that the sponsors,
shoe companies and things of that nature brands really focus on and care about.
So I took my best player in the ninth and 10th grade and I played them up. So that meant I had
less spots for your traditional rising seniors, your traditional juniors. And so what that did
is that gave those players an opportunity to be on the circuit for three years. So that gave them
an opportunity to get some national exposure prior to their senior year. So case in point.
Case in point. Mateen Cleaves. Mateen Cleaves, McDonald's All-American. That class had great
players. Winford Wogg, who just passed, Mike Chappelle, really good class. Three guys that
were really, really good. Those guys had to really perform at ABCD camp or at that time,
the Nike camp. And that was essentially what they had to move up the charts, right? So
Mateen Cleaves, shout out Mateen. Mike Bibby. Mike Bibby was a player that was heavily rated.
At the Nike camp, when they matched up head to head, he tore off into him. Well, Winford
Wogg played for a coach that was a legendary coach. I mean, he played for a coach that was legendary.
And so played at Detroit Persian High School. So tons of exposure just for that high school.
So my approach by taking Kelvin Torbert when he was in the ninth grade and taking him to
and Robert Whaley in the ninth grade, allowing them to play with Jason Richardson and Brent
Darby and those guys on the 17 under circuit. By the way, champions of the big time, 98.
Championship game three years in a row at the big time, 96, 97, 98. But just tooting my horn
a little bit there. But as we continue, I think that philosophy was what I used. I used that with
Anthony Roberson. I used that with old time teaming and others. And that was how I was able to
alleviate that issue with rankings for kids in Michigan. Okay. Did you get any pushback from
bringing kids up? No, because it was an incredibly unique opportunity for those players. Those guys
that played there when it ended up happening is some of you teams started to kind to entice that,
you know, with some of their players and maybe allow them to play up for a tournament,
but they were kind of still stuck in their ways, stuck in their style. Now you're going to play
15 and under, but you're going to play this tournament 17 and under. But for me, it was like
Anthony Roberson was, I mean, the ball was bigger than him at the time. It was like he 13 years old,
five foot, whatever, man, come on out of you started point guard. Let's go. So I didn't get a lot of
pushback. I think it changed, you know, you know, because of the success, I think some people
changed, but not a whole lot of pushback because I only did it with the top top guys. You did it
with the people that you knew would get some playing time in the like on those tournaments if
they went to a higher level. Yeah. So I made a decision. I said, okay, let's take the number one
point guard in the junior class. I would say, okay. And then let's say Anthony Roberson was the
number one point guard as a freshman. How much better is the junior than the freshman? Maybe he's
better, but maybe it's this much. That player and he'd be this much better than he's gone. Or I can
take that freshman, bring him here and look at the jumps that he's going to make over the next two
years by allowing him to gain this experience right out the gate. So what are the stories
regarding that a stretch? Have you not shared so far? Well, let's talk about tone gates. So tone
gates man was six, four, very athletic, had that like Draymond green type mentality, you know,
understanding of the game made everybody better. We just gave him the ball. We had another player
that was really good on the team named Deandre Hewlett. We have some other guys that were good.
But he, you know, being a football player as well, his toughness, his tenacity, his will to win,
that by itself was able to take us to a different level. We ended up losing in the championship to
DC assault that year in the big time. Back then the big time had 250 teams participating. So
nothing like that exists today. And it was wide open to every shoe. You know, it didn't matter
who you were sponsored by. Everybody participated in the big time then. So tone gates, as good as
he was in football, we know him, he's a hall of famer, incredible tight end. Antonio was exceptional
as a basketball player. It just in that, at that time, they weren't ready for that type of a player,
you know, a player that was undersized. And so he didn't fit the mold as a six foot four shooting
guard, if you will. In today's game, he could play because Draymond Green is, you know, a four time
world champion. Antonio would be the same. The other thing that I know I've never shared is
Matt Ischvia, the owner of the Phoenix Suns, Matt was on that team with Antonio. And just to give
you a characteristic. So Matt and Antonio had a very good relationship, very close at the time.
And when we would throw Matt in the game, Antonio and Dante Darlin and other those guys, and their
game would go to another level. I wouldn't say to protect Matt, but to make sure, hey,
we don't want to be blamed for, you know, having a duck off, you know, because Matt's in the game.
So they would take their game to another level. So by the way, at that time, our coach,
you know, of that team, it was a friend of mine who passed a few years ago, his name was Daryl Ellis.
So shout out to Coach Ellis and his son Bear. So that would be one story, obviously, you know,
Matt Ischvia played for us. Man, the battle between, you know, two guys on the team at
the same time would be Jason Richardson and Kelvin Torber. Here we got DeAndre Hewlett. Here's three
players that are Pogo sticks, right? Both of them jump out the gym. DeAndre Hewlett was six foot
seven. He ended up being drafted by Toronto Raptors. Kelvin Torber was graceful. He was in the air. He
had hang time. He's, you know, just hanging out like Jordan, if you will. And Jason Richardson was
kind of like Dominique Wilkins, like power just boom, right? So it's funny because at that time,
I was with Adidas and I was with Sonny. We'll talk about Sonny. But I wasn't one of the main guys,
right? I wasn't, you know, one of the main guys. Our team wasn't one of the main teams.
And so back then you would play three games the last day. So the championship day was three games
and the day before that you'd play two. So our last five games, we had to go through all of Sonny's
darling teams, which was, you know, Long Island Panthers out in New York. Shout out Gary Charles.
It was the Atlanta Celtics based out of Atlanta. You know, Wallace Prather. It was the New Orleans
Jazz. It was at that time coached by Thad Fouché. Who else did we end up having to play? Well,
DC Assault was our nemesis, but they ended up getting knocked out the game before we would
have played them. So we had to go through. We lined them up. And so it was, it was just kind
of fun, like just knocking each one of the so-called darling teams out as we went through and
through the championship. But we had a lot of fun, man. I mean, we had a lot of fun. I mean,
I guess one of the stories, the biggest story, I guess, we would tell. Here's it. Here's the cake.
You know how Kendrick Perkins always talks about me and LeBron played together. We played AAU
together. You know, he brings that up, right? Always. Let's talk about that story, right?
Because they're not giving the actual story. So Kendrick played on a team in Texas. I don't
recall the actual name of his AAU team. So he played with them throughout his career, right?
LeBron played for his coach, Drew Joyce. You know, that was his team predominantly,
which ended up turning into almost like their high school team, right?
And then there was a gentleman by the name of Leon Powe, who was a top five player,
great athlete, went to Cal, I believe. And he played for the Oakland Soldiers.
So LeBron's high school coach had a relationship with the Oakland Soldiers.
And so he ended up playing with them every year in a tournament. It was like the elite eight
in California every year, all right? So when this tournament is held in Houston, Texas,
which would make sense why Kendrick, you know, would figure some things out. So everybody comes
to this tournament. You know, it's the Texas Classic, great tournament, Sebastian Telfer,
you had teams from everywhere, New York. It was a heavy, heavy tournament, right?
And so we're there, of course, we're there to Michigan Hurricane. So they have taken
LeBron James and Kendrick Perkins are playing with Leon Powe on the Oakland Soldiers AAU team.
So it's like, okay, we know who's going to win this damn thing. They got three guys.
Five top 10 worst case scenario playing on the same team. All right. So ironically,
we would play, let's say on court A at nine o'clock, they would play on court A at 10 o'clock.
So we kept, you know, we would always play on a court. They would always see the second half
of our game. All right. And LeBron, you know, he's, you know, he's an Ohio kid. He knows,
you know, we're in Michigan. He knows our guys has relationship with some of our guys, so on and so
far. So we go through that tournament and Aaron Brooks had a great game against LeBron and those
guys, you know, Seattle Rotary shot out to those guys. They end up losing. Now, they lost.
They ended up losing. Yeah, they lose. I believe they lost to the DC Assault team. Okay.
I'm telling you that DC Assault was a powerhouse too. Listen, Curtis Malone, DC Assault. Listen,
that was like my favorite team outside of our team. DC Assault has always been my favorite team. We
had a great time. Those, you know, Illinois Fire also great relationship with those guys. A lot of
really good teams coming up, but DC Assault, good team. So they lose. That tournament. They lose.
They lose that tournament. And so, like I told you, typically back then it was tournaments. Now
they just kind of just have games. They don't, they build it all up for the end. Back then,
every weekend was an actual tournament. So we're in that. So the final eight teams are the next day.
So we come in the next day, LeBron and them are, you know, they're done. They, you know,
they're, the team has lost, but LeBron is in the stands at our games. So the elite A game, we win.
The final four game, we win. The championship game we're about to play, LeBron is there.
And, you know, in a joking way, he's like, yo coach, let me get one of them jerseys. Ain't y'all
coming to Cleveland in two weeks? We're like, yeah, we come to Cleveland. Let me get one of them
jerseys. I'm like, boy, I'm trying to, you about to mess my head up. I'm trying to coach a team.
You're talking about playing. You know, like what? Wait, what? Right. So hurricanes win this
tournament. So tell Kendrick Perkins, if you're going to keep talking about me and LeBron played
together, that's when they played together. The Texas classic, they didn't win. The Michigan
hurricanes win that tournament. Now we're going to the airport and, you know, we ended up winning.
We're running through the airport. Who do we see in the airport? LeBron. So all the kids run up
to LeBron. We won, man. We won. So on and so forth. And not to spoil it, make a long story short. That
was the first time I had a conversation with LeBron about potentially playing with the Michigan
hurricanes. That, that, that would be the unique story with that from the standpoint of Kendrick
Perkins always talking about, yeah, me and LeBron go way back. Yeah, but tell the whole story.
Y'all just win that tournament. You're going to shout out. What is one characteristic or trait
that's important for a coach to have in order to be successful specifically in the AAU space?
I think one of the biggest traits is motivation. You got to be able to motivate the kids because
it's not your traditional setting, right? You are playing possibly in a different city and
a different state. You may be playing on a court that doesn't have the fans circling the court.
You might have multiple games. So I think motivation is one of the biggest things because,
you know, as an AAU grassroots coach, you might play multiple games in that day. So you got to
be able to get guys fired up. You might have an eight o'clock AM game, a nine AM game at these
tournaments where traditionally you plan at home 7 30 PM on varsity. So that to me is kind of the
biggest trait. And then outside of that, I think you kind of got to be a parent, you know, because
you're taking someone else's child on the road, traveling with them. They're leaving them in your
care. Like you said, there are there is some criticism when it comes from that, when people
are playing AAU. So what do you think are major advantages for them playing AAU? Overall, I think
it's toughness. AAU is going to put you in an environment. It's unusual. Some things you got
to do on the fly, style of play, location, the dynamics surrounding the tournament or the event
that you plan in. So I think one of the greatest advantages of kids that play AAU, they're really
tough. They're strong. They go through some adversity. Typically, you don't have that even
with the European, you know, style of basketball from the standpoint of practicing, which I think
is great. I think you should practice. But AAU allows you to, you know, challenge that top guy,
right? You know, today's game, you got the rankings, you got, you know, rankings change every other
week, every month, every quarter, you know, ESPN, rivals, whatever it's a B, you know, and now you
have an opportunity to go after that guy that's rated above you. How often would you get that,
you know, in a just playing games once a week or practicing several times a week? Yes, you're
getting better with your team. Yes, your skill level is increasing. But being able to get that
toughness, that dog, as we like to call it. I think a lot of that is established with AAU basketball.
I agree with you 100% on that because Kyle and I both played AAU as well. But I want to talk about
one advantage I think, well, at least I thought that people would feel would be the just the
exposure aspect of it. So toughness is an inner character inner characteristic. I get that. But
I think the exposure itself just goes unnoticed in most cases. What do you think about that?
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, again, you know, you have those rankings. Typically, you know, the guy
that's rated top, you know, number one, top five, top 10, you got a bullseye on your chest. So
you want to maintain that. It's harder to maintain it than it is to kind of climb and
chase you down. Right now you know, you got these predators coming after you, you know, and now you
trying to hold on to it. So it serves its purpose on both sides. Those that are trying to climb the
ranks that think man, I'm better than this guy. They got this guy tough. I'm better than him.
Okay, go prove it. You can prove it on the circuit. You know, you have an opportunity to prove it on
the circuit. The other thing is you top five, you might think you need to be number one,
and you want to sustain that. Well, guess what? You got to prove it every time you play it.
Right? Because every time somebody's on the floor, you have to maintain and have that separation
that I'm here and you're here. And so yeah, from an exposure standpoint, you get that.
Obviously the coaches, you know, they like to travel and go to these AU tournaments that are
typically at nice warm weather, you know, great cities, you know, they do a little bit of work.
They may do a little bit of play, if you will. So from an exposure standpoint, you get a collection
of all of these great players in one facility. How often can you get that? Hey, what's up guys,
hopefully you're enjoying this video so far. Don't forget to like the video, subscribe to the channel
if you're not already and comment below with some of your favorite parts so far. Chris has been an
amazing guest, the perfect guest, I must say, but not everything in life is perfect. Unfortunately,
we did lose some of the footage from this, just video, we still have the audio. So you're going
to see for the next second part of this where he kind of cuts out, but we did our best to to still
make it work. Still an excellent interview. And thank you guys for tuning in. Let's continue on
to the next part. What actually happened with John Warren, Brandon Jennings that day? You know what,
I'm gonna be short and sweet guys on this. So at that time, I wasn't the director. I had moved on.
So I must save that one for Gary Charles. Hopefully you guys end up getting him on. I'm gonna
leave that one for Gary. Let Gary comment on that. But like I said, at that time, Anthony Crater was
number two. Branding Jennings was definitely number one. And we didn't really know John Wall.
And so John Wall obviously made that leap. But what I can say this, right? I can say this,
you only played two points and the most amount of points ever scored in an ABCD game was by
Kobe Bryant, which was 40. And that was tied by Olufamu Timmy, which was also 40. So you got
to understand that them guys had to really, really be putting it in. So you only play in two quarters.
So really, really destroying someone hard to do that. But because even in the LeBron matchup,
like it wasn't like LeBron scored 40 points. So I'll leave it at that. But John Wall established
himself, but I wasn't the director. So I don't want to comment as the director because at that time,
I wasn't. I get it. And I love the answer. I'll take it. Okay. So transitioning, when you talk about
moving into something that's not only good for you, but good for, I guess, your resume and career
going forward, how the heck did you become an MBA scout? Well, shout out Mark working team,
Cray working team, and Moe working team. So Mark working team who recently passed was the general
manager of the Portland Trail Blazers at the time. His daughter, Cray, works for the Minnesota
Timberwolves now. And Moe is his wife. Great people. So I wanted to shout them out because
Mark was my man and a great human being and just a brilliant mind. So Mark was different. And so
and so he I met Mark and when he hired me just quick story, it was very simple.
We were in California, right? We're at a Marriott hotel and I bump into him and I'm like,
Hey, Mark, how are you doing? He's like, Chris, Greer, Lucy is like, I got your resume upstairs.
Like, I want to talk to you. You got time? Yeah. We sit down and talk and he tells me essentially
like, look, scouts are different. You know, they move around a lot. And I think you're unique. And
I think you're intelligent. And I think you're, you know, brilliant in some ways, young, aggressive,
you know, and can do some things. And I'm going to give you your first, which ended up being my only
your first job in the NBA. And he said, you ain't gonna get rich off of it. Let me tell you right
now, you ain't gonna get rich, but you're going to always look back and say, Mark working team
gave me my first opportunity. And so he hired me literally on the spot in the lobby of the Marriott
hotel, the LAX airport Marriott hotel. And yeah, I'm so grateful for that. So you just do, where
do you get your resume from? Where is that? So just from following you? Yeah. So I, you know,
I guess I sent it to him. I didn't even realize that I sent it to him, but I guess I actually
sent it to him because in my discussions with my mentor, Sonny Vicarone about, you know, things
moving forward and what you're going to do next, because I was a manager at Ford Motor Company. So
I went to school for engineering and materials management. So I was working at Ford and then
coaching, but basketball was taking over my life. Sonny Vicarone wanted me to be everywhere and do
so many different things. So, you know, so we talked about maybe, you know, working in the NBA,
which was a little bit untraditional for a grassroots guy, you know, to work with an NBA team.
But I think he was the first one that encouraged me to kind of reach out. And so, you know, so Mark
hired me, Mark hired me. And now listen, if we get to talking about that role, it was a very,
very small role. And I can explain that role. We can dive into that at any point, but it was a very
small role. It was a unique opportunity. And, and it was him just thinking outside of the box saying,
this guy got I for some things. He's a good judge of talent and potentially maybe of character. I'm
gonna give him a chance. He can help me. Obviously, you know, it was to help him. He wasn't just doing
it as a favor. You can help me in the unique strategic things on how I think as a general
manager. And so, so he hired me. So what were some of the biggest challenges that you face as an NBA
scout? I'm gonna talk about the challenges and the role. So the role, again, we didn't have like
internet, we didn't have social media and you didn't have as many tools as you have now.
Look what I did. Mark said, I want you to go see live every big time small college player
in the entire Midwest. Go to NAIA games, go to division two games, go to small college games,
go everywhere. So I was essentially, I'm going to see all these kids that never think that they
have a chance in the NBA. All of these kids that are playing at small schools that are dominating.
And essentially it would be Chris, go watch the player and determine if the Portland Trailblazers
need to spend more time and money evaluating this player. So that was the role. I mean, Mark was
always thinking different. You know, he, you know, he taught me as a, you know, as a, as a manager,
you guys look at the draft and he always talked about this, get the assets and what do you mean?
At one time Portland Trailblazers had Jermaine O'Neal, Zach Randolph and Rashid Wallace. They
all played power forward. I think that was Zach Randolph's what rookie year or the beginning of
his career. The beginning of his career. Yeah. First couple of years. So it was always like,
man, Portland needs a shooting guard. They need a small forward. They need a whatever.
His thing was I got all the assets. So now prior to the trade deadline, every team that wants to
make a move in the playoffs, they're all calling me because I have the assets that they need to
get to another level. So now I turn that into multiple draft picks. I can turn that into the
point guard I need, et cetera, et cetera. So in the draft, his thing was get the best asset.
Don't draft a player that, oh, we need a shooting guard today. Things change, get the best asset.
But going back to your question, challenges, I mean, the challenge, the biggest challenge I would
say with scouting is probably don't know this. Scouts don't typically have long term contracts.
So scouts move around. They're always potentially, you know, typically it's a one or two year deal.
So you could be with this team for two years, let's say, and then you could be out of the
business completely or you're with another team. So the greatest challenge I think is,
you know, do you have somewhere to go next? And for me, after Mark, I didn't move to another team.
So that would be the greatest challenge. I certainly understand that. That uncertainty
is very wary on anybody. So I get him. Now, one of the greatest things that you've ever
done, accomplished or started CGL sports and consulting, what was the mission and vision
behind that? Wow. So, you know, I started off prior to CGL with SFX sports. So in order to
mention CGL, I got to, of course, mention SFX. So SFX sports is the largest sports firm that's ever
existed. Right. So all of the majors, CAA, United Artists, WME, Wasserman, it would be maybe two of
those put together. Right. To give you an example, we represented 25% of the NBA just in one firm.
And there was 10 agents there. And I worked with, I think, the greatest two basketball agents that's
ever existed, which is David Falk. People would recognize him as Michael Jordan's agent. And Arne
Tellum, who had everybody, you know, T-Mags, Man O'Neal, so on. And so Joe Johnson, et cetera.
Also with that group now, you have Bob Myers, everybody knows from the Warriors.
Yep. Rob Palinka, who obviously everybody identifies with as Kobe's agent and obviously
with the Lakers. So huge firm. But my experience there, what kind of created CGL in the large
firms, which you end up having is multiple agents, often competing. They're working together,
right? They're one family, one group, but often they may be competing with one another for the
same players. So you're your own identity within that firm. And so somebody has to always be the
tiebreaker. And that can be tough. Now at SFX, it was the toughest. We had 10 basketball agents,
along with football, baseball, soccer, golf, tennis, et cetera. But just speaking to one sport.
And that wasn't, you know, you have to be built for that, meaning you have to enjoy that. You
have to want to be in that space. And for me, I was always being going, you remember, now I'm
a grassroots guy. I want to use the platform to help the little guy, right? I want to overcome
some things. I want to use this grand, docious, huge platform to do some, you know, un-customary
things. And so eventually I left and started CGL Sports, wanted to be boutique. You know, I guess
the purpose of CGL is literally just maximizing our clients' potential, right? Specific to their
goals. What happens when you're with a large firm, no disrespect, because it's, you know, it fits
wherever you want, whatever's your desire. But for me, it was about maximizing an individual's goal
and being specific to them, because you run into cookie cutter situations often with a big firm.
And so I wanted to go different. And I wanted to, to be quite honest, which I wanted to get back to
Michigan. I wanted to get back to helping kids that I knew their families coming up. I knew them
when they played, you know, grassroots. I knew them in middle school. So I wanted to be able to
help kids initially from Michigan. And then it evolved a little bit into kind of the Midwest.
How do you approach the recruitment and management of the clients for CGL Sports?
Yeah, good question. So now, different organization, right? Different company,
different goals, right? Most people want to get in it to get as many clients as possible,
to make as much money as possible, so on and so forth. I'm a grassroots dude, right? So I'm
community. So a little bit different. So for me, criteria is always character. It's going to start
with character. And I know that's, you know, kind of maybe cliche and easy to go to. But when your
boutique, every move affects your overall business. Because your boutique, you only have so many guys.
So you want guys that you can manage their career. You want guys that have a sense of loyalty,
guys or girls, you know, he or she. You want athletes that just live by a certain type of
code. So for me, it starts with the character because I don't, I don't really recruit. Like,
most people really, really are active recruiting. Over the years, most of the clients that I've been
involved with have come from like a relationship. I know their coach and know a family member. You
know, one of my players know the players specifically, and they like what they were doing.
So for me, it goes back to that, you know, that character. That's kind of the biggest thing for
me. When you talk about comparing how you do business versus how big businesses do business
or corporations do businesses, that aspect right there is enough to draw in the players, the ones
that want something like that to you, which means it's going to be an excellent relationship going
forward. Kind of like you've established with Wilson Chandler. How, what's been, simply put,
what's been the greatest highlight that you've had in your time with him? You know me, man. You
ask these questions and I can never give you a direct one single answer, right? So forgive me.
That's okay. So I've known Wilson since Grassroot. He came out of my AU program. And so Wilson has
seen me at my all time low and as well as some highs, but I'm gonna give you four things that
were really, really unique. Number one, Wilson was with me when my fiance was murdered. Some that I
don't talk about often, but I had a, I had a fiance. I was engaged. That kind of ended the AU run.
He was with me when we lost her and we lost her doing the Spies tournament. It was in May. It was
a big tournament that we played in, in Indiana. And I got news while coaching those guys in the
tournament, you know, on a Saturday and with that tournament ending on Sunday, still have all these
kids, you know, that I'm responsible for at this tournament. So that's one. So he's, he was with me
at a very low point, high point. I got Wilson Chandler drafted 23. He came out without my advice.
I advised him to go back to school to be quite honest after his sophomore year, after going to
the NIT at DePaul, after having a solid year, you know, 14 points, maybe six rebounds a game,
but he didn't make all anything. He wasn't all American, all this, all league, all big East,
none of that. But he was a solid player and he had potential and he just, he just was ready to get
out, man. I'll just say that. So I'm telling them, are you ready to go overseas? That's where you
go on. Cause if you, you coming out, you're on no boards. Nobody had him on a draft board. You're
going overseas. And so long story short, my trainer at the time, guy by the name of Rodney Hurd,
he, you know, he called me and he's like, man, you got to look at this thing different, man.
This kid is a little bit better than you think. And I'm like, I've known him since he was 14.
What do you mean? And he pointed out a thing. He said, the kid makes shots tired. And that's a
gift. That's a skill. And he pointed that out to me and I didn't recognize that. And he saw that
in the workouts and the training in the early going on. So Wilson Chandler goes 23,
shout out Isaiah Thomas, hall of fame, Isaiah, Detroit piston, Isaiah, who was the president
of the New York Knicks at the time, who flew into Atlanta and had a conversation with me. We agreed
that he would take Wilson 23. He only had a first round pick at the time. And I sold him on some of
the traits. The only player that I told him that Wilson wasn't better than in that position was
uncle Jeff. We called him uncle Jeff. Everybody called him Jeff Green. Jeff Green. I was like,
that one might be a problem, but I'm saying all these other wings, you know, Corey Brewer and all
these other guys, I'm like, Wilson, he'll dominate those guys. He's just more physical. He's, he
plays both sides. He has a skill set. He rebounds. Isaiah obviously did his own work. Obviously the
kid played at DePaul. Isaiah's from Chicago. So he did his own work there. And you know,
Wilson went 23, which was, I mean, that was an incredible jump guys, right? Undrafted to 23,
first round and to a major market. And then outside of that, obviously we went to China
and we can talk about that. We got back from China. He signed an extension and that extension
was 40 million. And today's game, that extension would be about 150 million based on the Clem
Byrd agreement at this point. And lastly, he did 14 years and he was able to leave the game on his
own terms. Like the game didn't retire him. When he left, he just was like, I'm done. I don't,
you know, I don't want to be injured anymore. I want to spend time with my kid. So speaking
of China, you played a major role in the China CBA option deals in 2011. How did you actually
manage to do that? Great question. Not to bore you. Essentially what happened is it was the NBA
lockout, you know, guys were trying to, they were scrambling. Everybody's trying to scramble. Where
am I playing? And so Europe took advantage, right? That was the destination for most guys. Europe
took advantage. They were going for the high level guys. You know, it was reported Darren Williams
went to Turkey for like $2 million. But a lot of guys were being, you know, they were offered
five, 10, 15,000 a month, which they weren't used to, but guys needed jobs. They didn't know how
this thing was going to go. So they needed money. And so I had, you know, young in the game, young
guys. So I had all these young guys that were like, yo, what options are available for me? And I'm
like, there's not a lot of options because they can take veterans, you know, before you guys. So
I had Epey Udo, Allen Anderson, Anthony Roberson, Wilson Chandler, a few other guys that wanted to
play. I was able to get Epey Udo in Israel. There was this quote that Kobe Bryant, that, you know,
that China was offering Kobe Bryant several million dollars to come, but there was a hitch.
You would have to stay the entire season. And so of course, oh, Kobe's entertaining it. Now,
had Kobe gone, it would have changed the landscape of anything. It would have might have crushed
that NBA season, right? But obviously he didn't. And, but he was, you know, considering it,
at least in the paper. Well, long story short, you know, I'm sitting here and Wilson Chandler,
like, bro, I want to play. I'm young. I'm trying to, you know, I'm on my rookie deal. I want to
play somewhere. So I had two options for him. I had an option for him to go to Italy
up until Christmas. It would be, you know, you got to stay to Christmas, no matter what happens in
the NBA. And then there was the opportunity to consider China. We get together, we're like,
man, let's spend the weekend and let's just, let's talk through it. So we talked through it.
And what I did, nobody had really paid attention to the Chinese market. I'm looking at the Chinese
market. The regular season ends around February 15th, which is typically the same time as NBA
all-star weekend. All-star break. Yeah. Right. So I'm saying, okay, hold on. Now, obviously if you
win the championship, you're going to go a little bit farther. So I say to Wilson, listen, bro,
the absolute worst case scenario, you're stuck in China to February, close to March, but you're
going to play in the NBA. Right. It's just a matter, like if we signed today and then tomorrow,
the lockout ends, now you're going to be struggling getting on that plane going to China. Right.
So I ended up taking Allen Anderson, Anthony Roberson and Wilson Challenger there. Right.
And I told Wilson, listen, we're going to do it this way. Nobody wants to be the first one,
but it's best for you to be the first one because you have all the options. You can choose all the
teams. You have all the resources. You can figure out what's the best fit for you. Then it's going
to kind of flow, you know, and guys are just going to be taking deals, but not knowing what they're
getting themselves into. So we researched all the options that he had. We ended up going to Guangxia
team in Hongzhou, China. It was a beautiful city, big lake, a bullet train ride from Shanghai,
which is one of the best cities. There was an American coach who was the assistant for Phil
over the years. And so he won championships, American coach and great city. Now, after that,
the flood gates over here come Jarrod Smith, here come Kenyon Martin, here come Aaron Brooks,
you know, and five other NBA guys. The only difference is those guys didn't know what they
were getting themselves into, you know, when they were choosing to go to China. They had no idea
what the cities were like, and so on and so forth. And so I still see I still see some of your posts.
How heavily invested or active are you still in that Chinese market? So obviously, I got three
guys going over there and they're all mid 20s. Right. And they're basically they're my organization,
right? They're my business. So I flew to China with the intentions to stay two weeks. I said,
guys, I'm coming with you. Let's go. Go to China. Right. So we take a pitch and go, we out. Let's go.
We're in China. I got two weeks worth of clothes packed. Let's do it. I'm really locked in. I got
over there and I saw how difficult the preseason was. Right now, just overseas period. Them guys
practice twice a day. NBA guys ain't ready for that. They're ready for that. Wait, twice a day.
Oh, OK. We're doing that for the first week. Right. Training camp. Got you. Right. Right.
The first month, maybe even further. So I see the guys in there are like they're going through these
two days and they're like, oh, man, oh, man, this is like slavery, man. This is crazy, man. This is
they're like freaking out. So I'm like, all right, I'm going to stay a little bit longer.
Guys, I end up staying in China six and a half months. Oh, my goodness.
Who? Why? Why? I did the whole bag. Right. Because I felt like in the early going,
when I go home, airplane right behind me, they're coming home and it's too much at stake. Right.
They you have to stay here for the season or you won't get what they call a letter of clearance.
So FIBA governs all the basketball, NBA included. So in order to leave, you know,
go from league to league, you have to always get a letter of clearance. So I'm like, if I if I leave,
one of them just can't hack it and come home and Wilson decides, man, I'm right behind you. Then
now it is going to be negative. Now it is going to be, you know, a bad look. And we took our time
before we went. One of the things that we did, I guess I didn't mention, say, OK, we're going to
China. All right. Let's control the media. What do you mean? We're going to contact them. We're
going to give them all of our reasons. We went with Adande, J.A. Adande, who was with ESPN at the time.
He did the stories on all of his platforms. So, yeah, there was going to be criticism,
but we were able to lay out this is why we're going. This is what we're doing. We're excited
about it. So we were able to get our message out so that we wouldn't get destroyed from a media
standpoint with that decision, because everybody was against all you crazy. Go to China. You're
going to miss the NBA. No. So I'm like, but if I go home and these guys come home beforehand
and don't get that letter of clearance, that would be a negative story. That's why I stay.
That's the story that we wanted right there when we looked at this as an overview was one of many
stories, but that one in particular, because it shows the devotion that you have towards your
players. And you don't see that at least on the forefront with a lot of agents. It's I might go
over there. I might not. Or if I do go over there, I'll stay for a couple of days and I'm going back
just to get you a little acclimated. And you were heavily invested. You again, six months.
Only packed two weeks worth of clothes. Right. Right. I can say it's easy to get
clothes in China. I'm sure you could imagine. But yeah, no, I was, I mean, they were my guys.
And so like I want them to be successful. I don't want them to, because I'm a mentor at first
before I'm an agent, I'm a mentor first. Right. So I don't want you to screw up your life. I don't
want you to screw up your financial stability. So yeah, let me go over here with you. I'm going to
learn some things and you are as well. So since that, you know, obviously since I was over there,
I'm like, well, what am I going to do? So I met with every brand. So every shoe brand in China,
you know, Chow Dong, which is Chinese Jordan, peak, and rigor or didn't exist at the time. But
Lee Ming, who D Wade is with, I met with all these brands. And when I said I met with them,
I physically flew to their factories. I went to their headquarters. I met with them. So I
spent time with them. I got to know them. You know, I've built relationships with them. And so
since then, you know, there's been a few opportunities here and there where they may call me or ask some
opinion on some guys, or it may be a player that may reach out to me and say, I have interest in,
you know, an Asian shoe. If they know, most people don't know, right? Cause I don't broadcast it.
So if they know, they'll reach out and then I may make the connection and, you know,
and connect the dots between those, those brands and those athletes that might be a good fit from
a marketing standpoint. And then obviously I've continued to have guys to go over there to
participate in playing the CBA, Chinese CBA, mentor different agents on that process, help maybe
connect some of the dots and then take some players over there for like, you know, exposure
or marketing opportunities, things of that nature. So mostly just connecting the dots to resources
that I was able to establish, you know, during 2010, 2011 that I've maintained.
And I'm glad you brought up the, especially when you talk about shoe brands, because I thoroughly
just enjoy and love what ANTA is especially doing with Kyrie right now. They have a strong shoe,
a strong campaign. It's working and I love to see that.
I agree. I agree. Yep.
All right. So we're moving into one of our last sections, but before we do that,
when we talk about your company, your roles, is there anything left on that particular list
that you want to touch on? Yeah. I mean, so I like, you know, one of the things I've been doing
just started most recently is working with young agents, right? Young agents that are just starting.
I have a gentleman by the name of Juan or Reg Bay, a young lady named Janine, we call her Chica,
a young lady named Shira. She was actually the youngest agent to ever be certified in basketball.
Kudos to her. And I'm having some discussions with some other young
young agents because here's the thing, there's 800 agents certified in basketball in the NBA.
There's 450 NBA basketball players, right? So the odds are against most agents with,
you know, attaining a client, recruiting a client, being able to serve as a client.
And so what I've done is offered myself to a lot of young agents with helping them in that process.
Hey, you're not able to work at, I'm not gonna name all the agencies, right? Large agency, right?
They haven't offered you, they haven't come after you, or you don't desire that, right? And so, hey,
come over here to CGL, let me mentor you, assist you, help you grow. And then look, I'm not looking
to build this huge agency and hold on to you, send you on your way, right? So I've been
been mentoring some agents now and really trying to help them navigate the space so that they're
not just out here with all these sharks, if you will, by themselves. I would say that's kind of
something I'm working on. I'm enjoying I'm really enjoying that right now.
If you were to have people reach out to you, especially young and upcoming agents,
is that something that you'd be willing to take more on?
Yes, absolutely. Because, you know, it's crazy, I had a couple of agents where there's, I have,
obviously, several friends that are, that came up with me, we were all scouts or whatever it is at
the same time, give you a case in point. Messiah Usery, he was when I was doing grassroots,
he was a volunteer scout for the Orlando Magic. Maybe that's not even on his resume, right? But
he was a volunteer scout at that time, right? I was a, what you would call a part time scout
at the time. I told you the scouting thing is different. So a lot of these guys over the years,
reach out, my boy Frank Ross, you know, with the Wizards. And they may have just, you know,
come into contact with individuals, young guys. And so they forwarded individuals to me, you know,
and I may mentor them or give them advice. And sometimes I don't even remember, it might be a
conversation, it might be a couple of conversations, it might be a text. And then I might have one or
two agents come up to me in Vegas and be like, yo, yo, yo, Chris, what's up? I'm like, hey,
how you doing? Oh, you don't remember, do you? Like, no. My boy Frank put us on the phone,
my boy John put us on the phone. I'm like, wait, you're the guy? Yeah, man, I had a top 10 pick
this year. Are you kidding me? Yeah. So it's just been something that I've always done. Like I
answer all emails. If you can believe that it doesn't matter who it is. The kid does division
two NAIA that wants to go pro. I answer the email because I give him the information. Hey, listen,
do you want to play overseas? Okay, do you understand what level you will start, etc,
etc. So I always answer all emails and all calls and try to do my best with mentoring and giving
back. I like that. So speaking to our audience, if you're a young agent, even a player, and you
have aspirations of working in this industry or being in this industry, this is your guy.
I promise. Listen, listen, don't flood it. But we'll make sure that the email address that's
associated with him one that you know, you guys just can't go crazy with will be down in the
description below. But seriously, after everything you've heard today, why wouldn't you give him a
chance? Right? So I like that. Now, basketball, specifically talk basketball, guys, just straight
hoops, right? Just straight hoops. Kind of like rapid fire, a little rapid fire. But we like to
ask everybody this very so much but like, who are your top five NBA players of all time? All
right, so I'm a Michigan State guy. So Magic Johnson, right? Start with MJ. Okay, meaning magic.
We go with the other MJ, Michael Jordan, Kobe Bryant, LeBron, right? Right. So these are probably
most people's top four, right? And then it gets tricky, I guess, at least for me, because you go
in top five, are we going, you know, the best players, the best talent, the best whatever.
But I lean towards Kareem, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar. I think he gets, I get I think he gets, for lack
of better term, crapped on all the time. And in my area, like, he was the guy, right? So he was,
Kareem was the guy, you know, people forget about what he done as Lou Auscender, prior to Kareem,
right? He was heavily rated and ranked as a high schooler. He was what we saw with LeBron,
what we saw with LeBron, take away the magazines and some of the TV and some of the things that
were available to you. So he was all of that. So I would say Kareem, you know, would be my fifth.
I think a lot of people, I don't want to say discredit or forget about those before because
they were trailblazers. And so I guess like you always hear like, you know, what's the new thing,
done with the 90s. There was nobody they were playing against back then. But somebody had to
start, somebody had to do it. And Kareem did it at such a high level. So I feel like he has to be in
the top five. Yeah, nah, Kareem, we like, I mean, and he held this record for what, 40 years, I
believe it is. Like, how we just keep stepping over Kareem to get to whoever it is that, you know,
nothing wrong. I'm sure there's, there's a lot of guys that could be on that list, but those are my
guys. To me, Magic is the best point guard that's ever played. Regardless of, you know, Steph changing
the game in a way, but like, think about where the game was at when Magic came into the game,
right? Say thank you. Say thank you to Magic and Larry Bird, you know, everyone. So I don't think
that you can, I don't think, you know, Steph or anyone else has caught into past Magic. And
remember, his career was cut short because he detect, you know, he, you know, got the virus
that can cause age, HIV. So, you know, Magic to me is the best. So in my opinion, how could you go
wrong with those five? You know, LeBron can play anywhere, right? So if you go on position basketball,
you can put those guys in positions as well. For sure. Okay. All right. Now listing your top five
and then building a seven man roster is a little different in some cases. So I like your five,
but if you had to build a seven man roster, including one coach to play 82 game season
and win a title, who's on your team? My coach is Chuck Daly. I'm a piston. So I'm going with Chuck.
I know everybody want to go with field. I hear you on field, but I'm going Chuck, right? Because
he took the Isaiah Thomas Detroit Pistons one, two back to back championships, almost got three.
You know, if, if, if bird don't steal the ball, you know, the play that's always in, you know,
in, in, in garden, but it was three in a row. So I'm going Chuck and that Pistons team was like
a bunch of dysfunctional personalities that came together. Rodman, Sally, Rick Mahorn,
they're all misfits. If you will, Joe Dewar's coming out of McNeese state. Boom, they win the
title. Right. Yeah. Two of them. So I'm going, I'm going to daily out of my five. I'm keeping four.
I'm keeping the magic. I'm keeping MJ Jordan and I'm keeping Kobe. I'm keeping LeBron. Okay. I knew
he's going to call off that list. I knew it. I'm coming off that list for the seven. So that's
four. So now five, I'm sliding in Bill Russell. Oh, what? Okay. So listen, because look how good
the team is, right? Seven man roster. Everybody ain't going to be able to shoot. Yeah. Bill Russell
shows that he could play with hall of famers and he could win. So you gotta have someone that's a
leader, someone that has the personality to be able to manage these egos. Bill Russell did it as a
player and as a player coach, right? He's the only one that really did the player coach thing,
right? Which was mentioned that somebody threw that out, you know, let LeBron be the player coach
of the Lakers. Right. At one point, right? So Bill Russell, that's five. Then I'm going Steph Curry
because the game is different now. So you need somebody to stretch, stretch the floor. Yeah.
And then my seventh is going to be a little bit of an unorthodox pick, you know, and I would go
between two guys, but I think you need a dog. Like, hey man, bring the, bring the, I don't want to
curse, but bring the after the house, right? Kevin Garnett. I knew it. I'm going KG, bro. So my seven,
right? You got, you got, you know, let everybody debate who's the best, you know, whether it's
Michael Jordan, is it LeBron? Is it Colby? Cool. Y'all argue that. Okay. What would the best point
guard do? You know, come on now, Magic Johnson, right? The fast break, right? You know, he see,
he got eyes everywhere, right? Michigan State alumni. I'm going with the, the camp Bill Russell,
right? The greatest, right? The most winning is athlete for basketball. I'm going with Steph,
who's stretching the floor and I'm going with that mother effort. You know, I'm going with KG,
that kid bull that's coming in there. So, so that way, I think that's seven. I think we can line up
with anybody. You ain't throw Shaq in there ever? Now look, Shaq was the one guy that would have
been that is it Shaq or KG? Now look, don't be mad at me, Shaq, cause you know what I mean? I'm
mad at you, I think you're mad. Shaq, I love you, baby. You my man, 100 grand. But I just, would,
would Shaq make the team a better, like more dominant? Yes. But you got to have some
personalities. The seven dudes and I think Shaq and Kobe, right? Yeah, true. Maybe depending on
what timeframe this team was put together, where they're at, you know, egos. I think KG would maybe
fit a little bit better with this team because he would take a more of a defensive role. I mean,
you could have put Duncan, there's other guys, right? I mean, I love Duncan and others,
but for me, I'm going with the pit bull and KG, and I'm going with the, the, the, the, the,
you know, Steph to stress the floor. I'm adding Bill Russell so that, you know, we make sure we
win. And then I'm going with the four guys that I think are the best. No, I like that. Your team
literally from top to bottom has everything on it. And I, I was second guessing that Bill Russell
decision until you brought up the leadership aspect, someone to rein in that team. And that
right there goes unnoticed more than anything else on a championship team. So I like that. Absolutely,
man. Like they always talk about like all star teams win games and teams win championships. So
it's like, you gotta, you gotta have somebody to kind of keep, you know, keep the team, a team,
keep the main thing, a main thing. Yeah. And then, you know, even so not having Shaq coming in,
I like that you put at least a power forward in there. Cause then if you take Coby or Mike out of
that equation and just have a two, you move a Bron up to three, then you got a power forward coming
in to compliment the three, four, and then Bill, I like it. I love it. Absolutely. Hey, you know,
I mean, ain't everybody's team, but it's mine. The other day we had an interesting take when it came
to the ball brothers. I personally liked both of their games. I liked both of their games.
And then, so I was saying if healthy, you know, in the perfect world, cause like the point guard
position is so heavy right now, I think it's very plausible that they can be top five in the next
season if both healthy. How do you feel about that? Now, now listen, a lot of people, a lot of people
said this man over here was crazy. They said, no, they can never be, even if they were healthy,
you still got Brunson, Dan, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. Even Halliburton now is thrown in there.
So I'm loving, I love to hear your opinion on this. Cause ours is a little, I guess different.
Man, this is always difficult. The health thing is always tough, right? Because it's always that
unpredictable situation. So I see LaMelo not as a point guard. I see Mello kind of more as a
untraditional, like point forward type of a player, right? So Lonzo, man, Lonzo has speed,
quickness. He's strong. He's a good athlete and Lonzo has that vision. Now think about this now.
Lonzo, you know, he took a team, he took a UCLA team that they weren't that good and they had great
success. He made everyone better. I remember years ago, man, it was an issue about discussing kids.
And one of my players, Jason Riches, I'll just tell you, Jason Riches, he was talking about,
back then the college kids would play, they would have a scrimmage against the USA basketball team.
Right.
Okay. And Jay Rich talked about, you know, at the time, I think it was Jay Will, Jason Williams,
was the point guard of that team. And he's like, man, he's holding onto the ball a little long.
He's getting the assist, but by the time he get it to me, like I got to make a, like a difficult
play. But if he would just trust me and get it ahead early, then I could make a play, you know
what I mean, and have better results on my end, especially in transition. He wouldn't necessarily
get the assist because I might have to put it on the deck. So you have a lot of traditional point
guards now, not to name names, because so much has changed. They hold onto the ball and like,
all right, shoot it now. Right. Right. Like, all right, shoot your time. Right. To me, that's not
your traditional point guard. I think like, you know, Isaiah Thomas did, Magic Johnson,
they passed it ahead. Lonzo Borg gave the ball up. And so being a point guard that, that, that
moves it, like you can't run faster than the ball moves. So, you know, why was Golden State so good?
Because the ball doesn't stick, right? It's always moving. You can't outrun the pass.
Yeah. So taking that, I believe Lonzo ball would be, could be an excellent point guard. And then
ranking him top five would not be out of question. Now, speaking in LaMelo, I think he's, you know,
different. I think that's another subject. He would go to more of your, you know, your scoring
lead, you know, type guards where you essentially giving the ball to your best player and say,
hey man, we're going to play off you. But Lonzo is your old school, great lead, team leading
point guard. And had he, if he could come back and be, you know, healthy, I think he would
climb the charts very fast. LaMelo, what'd he do? 20, like 20 and eight. It looks like,
my biggest thing is that he looks like he's having so much fun out there more than actually like,
like these are grown men that you're playing against and he did not have a traditional way of
getting to the league. And he looks like it's so much fun out there and he's putting up these
numbers. So as soon as he starts to reel it in and really just like focus on basketball,
I feel like he's going to be a problem if he's having. Now, LaMelo's incredible, right? Now,
let's do this. Let's shout out they dad because the dad has got criticized a lot and man,
to have two players go top five in the draft, bro, that's incredible. I don't care what you call it,
what you want to label, brilliant is what I call it. That's brilliant, right? So shout out to him,
you know, for working their ass off and still in the talent in them, you know, holding them
accountable. You can question it, the business decisions and all of that, but shout out to dad
for that. You know, that's a mark that maybe might not be repeated anytime soon. But that being said,
I love LaMelo. I'm just saying that it's different. It's, you know, kind of goes with the
Highland burden. I think there's room for guys to, you know, kind of jump in and take off.
Yeah. I think LaMelo is as definitely as talented as Highland Bird and several others, right? He has
so much in his package. He gives you those untraditional passes, right? He gonna give you
that flash and razzle dazzle with his game. And he will pass the head. LaMelo will as well.
But I think also there's a burden on LaMelo to score that could potentially, you know, maybe take
away from his attributes as a point guard, because I think they need him to do that. And obviously
he can do that as well. All right. So what do you like with JJ ready to become an Lakers head coach?
There's been a lot of questionable decisions because they think there's other people out there
that have better accolades or better resume than he does. Like, how do you feel about that? First
of all, Sam Cassell is a great coach. I mean, he's one as a player, which you're talking about. He's
one of the players, one as a coach. He's paid his dues. He's been in different organizations.
He's always been a leader. He's always been someone that has overcome obstacles, whether it's
career wise, so on and so forth. So Sam Cassell deserves an opportunity. Now, the Lakers is
different. It's LA, it's the Lakers. It's a different story program. There's a look,
there's a level of pressure in all of those things that come with it. So, you know, just being thrown
in anybody as a first time coach is going to be difficult. So JJ Reddick, JJ Reddick has been
through the fire from the standpoint as he does media. There's pressure with that, right? You guys,
you know, entirely media, right? You guys have your own podcast. You know what I mean? Like,
there's pressure being able to answer questions and be able to think on the fly. So that, you know,
I think JJ has experience with that. JJ has, you know, he's played, you know, played a Duke coach.
Okay, he's had a number of coaches in the league. So I would imagine that he has a philosophy in
different strategies that he would be able to deliver. Nothing beats experience, right? He
doesn't have experience. He's never coached in the NBA. So anybody that says he's going to be great
or he's going to be terrible or whatever, we're all just taking a wild guess. You know what I mean?
I think we're all taking a guess. But I worked with Rob Pelinka and I like Rob and Rob is different
and people don't always get him or understand him. But Rob Pelinka is different. He thinks,
you know, thinks different. He has his own process of evaluating. And so I would believe in, you know,
in Rob's decision, right? We go back. So I would think that he did his due diligence in making that
decision. It's not just coaching. It's culture, right? It's culture. It's, you know, the Lakers
are always under the microscope. So there's, you know, people are talking about the look, right?
Yeah.
He has the look. Can he deal with the pressure? Can he carry himself a particular way?
And I don't think that it is the pressure of necessarily judging him specifically on winning
today. I believe that they're preparing for just life after LeBron. Like him learning with LeBron,
you know what? Give him an opportunity to coach with LeBron so he can pick up some things
and then be prepared, you know, to move the Lakers into the future thereafter LeBron. So I think
they're kind of, in my opinion, giving him the opportunity to coach with a guy at LeBron's level
so that when we have the next one, you have some experience with a megastar or a superstar.
That's an excellent viewpoint. Again, Lakers, whole different animal when you talk about teams
and bringing a coach in, right? And so I think having, I agree with you there, having him in
that position where you're looking at these next few years as a learning experience rather than
we must win now should change the perspective on how I guess in four years when his contract
negotiations happen, might be looking at that a little differently, or at least they might
be looking at that a little differently than how the world will.
I definitely wish nothing but the best for anybody in their ventures. I guess that's not what I'm
saying when it comes to like, JJ, I just feel like what you said kind of hit on the head,
the nail on the head earlier. Like you can't coach experience. Like I feel like Sam Cassell,
just specifically that one, that's when I saw the most recent, but like Sam Cassell, his resume is
so crazy and on the teams he played for his basketball career plus his coaching career for
like the past 10 years, most recently Celtic. So it's just like, and he was the Clippers
assistant coach. So he's had those big environments and everything, especially even being in LA.
I just feel like, you know, maybe it is the look and everything's about money. Everything's about
money. Everything's about marketing. So I do feel like as JJ is more marketable than Sam Cassell.
But now I was like, sheesh, when you put it side by side, I'm like, dang.
Yeah, side by side is not going to compare, right? You know, if you just traditional thinking.
I am a little bit surprised that they went with a player again though, because,
you know, having Darvin Ham was a player. I was a little bit surprised that they went
with a player again and not a heavily experienced coach, but they thought outside the box.
So I think they're thinking different. I think in my opinion, they may have felt
Cassell is similar, could be similar to Darvin Ham. Darvin Ham has been an assistant for a long time,
won a championship with the Bucks, always been that, you know, right-hand guy and boom,
we gave him a chance. That would probably be similar with Cassell. So you know what,
we're going to change this and mix it up a little bit. We're going to go outside the box. We're
giving a guy a first chance, but a little bit different. So I think they just kind of
switched gears a little bit and went a little bit more unique in their decision process.
I'm saying definitely credible. All right. So then taking our last question back home for you,
when you look at the Detroit Pistons, what is one piece of advice that you would give them
to make their next season a better one? Wow. Put me on the spot here. I got a lot of relationships
with the Pistons now. Work for R and Tell them who's the chairman. Trajan Langdon,
they just hired. I love that hire. I think that's fantastic. Trajan's going to be great.
But if I was to give advice, right, it would be locking into the city. What do you mean? Now,
marketing and NIL, they've done a lot of good things and I'm sure they'll continue to do.
But matching that blue collar might think about when the Pistons were good.
Chauncey Billups, Rashid Wallace, right? Blue collar type dudes, right? Isaiah Thomas,
Joe Dumar, Sally. It's always been with like a gritty, hardworking, match the energy of the city
type of a roster. A Hollywood roster, it just won't mix in Detroit, right? It just won't be
well received by the community, won't be well received by the media, won't be received by the
fans. So I think that they need to continue. I think they're on the right path. I think they're
going to do a great job. I would just say that, you know, from a coaching standpoint, the culture
and as they continue to add, you know, to the roster, you know, to continue to add guys that
match that blue collar energy, that hardworking mentality. Guys that are not pre-Mandanas,
guys that also healthy, guys that can give you, maybe they can't give you 82 games,
but guys that have the desire to play 82 games, right? Especially when you're looking at free
agency, like instead of getting a guy that may be a name, you know, whatever, who's a guy that's
durable? Who's a guy that is, you know, that's going to be with us every night? I think, you know,
obviously it's a mix in the match, but I think that would be an area that if I was giving any
advice and I'm not, even though there was an article that came out that suggested, you know,
me being in the front office over there, I'm not. I got great relationships over there. I love those
guys. Aaron Tellem has been a mentor and a friend a long time. So that would be my advice. So just
keep the bad boy Pistons vibe when it comes to Detroit. Yes, I think you have to. You know, who
probably might have done well over there if he wasn't so tied and to go and stay would have been
Draymond. Absolutely. He went to Michigan. And he's in Michigan. He went to Michigan. Yes, Draymond
would be great as a Pistons. And that may even happen. That may not, that might still be something
that potentially may be happening. You never know. Free agency and the trade deadline things,
you know, things happen. He would definitely fit. Yeah. Kevon Looney would fit. That's a going to.
Looney's gritty. A guy that plays 82 games, right? Yeah. But he would fit. I like that. I like that
a lot, especially because of the talent there. I mean, it's not when you look at the Pistons,
it's not a talent deficiency that they have. They have the talent. I think, at least it's just like
you were saying, like you need that mentality and obviously a coach that supports that mentality that
you're talking about. So yeah, I mean, it just was a whole, you know, they had to make changes and
the changes that they made, I think, you know, hopefully moving forward, different vision,
you know, different leadership, I think, you know, different coaching. I think, I think things will
get better here moving forward. I think they got a great piece in Cade. So yeah, he's tough. He's
tough. Yes. And then they got those surrounding pieces. So yes, I kind of switch it up real quick.
If you could go back in time to like your 18 year old self, what would be some advice now looking
back that you would give yourself? One piece. One piece of advice. It would just be one sentence.
It would just be like, it's going to be all right. And I think when you're younger, right, so I'm a
believer, right? And so being a believer, you know, as you go through trials and tribulations
and things change and different dynamics, you know, your emotions often may get you into trouble
with your decisions because often we make emotional decisions. So I would just, you know,
try to give myself a level of calmness. And just I would say to myself,
stay the course is going to be all right. And that would obviously I would, you know, change some
things, but I think decisions that I made that I would might want to adjust would be because of
emotions. And so simply just everything's going to be all right. Stay the course, be calm, think
things through. Staying on the course of life. I think that during the duration that we spend here
on earth, you can always look at certain people that kind of shaped your life, made you pivot,
put you on the right path, whatever it may be. I want to talk about three people that in your
current life up until today have been the most influential for you. And how did they actually
impact you? Three people. I can't name 10, right? Three. All right, three. So the first one would be
would be my pastor, Edward Lucas, New Faith Tabernacle Church of God in Christ out of Detroit
Bishop, right? He is the first one that, you know, helped me along with I had another uncle as well,
Bishop Bogan, both of them passed. But Elder Edward Lucas was the first one to, you know,
to instill that love for Christ, that love for having a relationship with the Lord, you know,
and enjoying having a relationship with the Lord and trying to have him be involved in as many
things as possible. Everything. But come on now, we're all sinners and we all make mistakes.
So I'm not going to make it seem like I'm a bad boy, right? I don't do a lot of bad things, right?
But I'm just saying like he instilled in me, you know, to repent, ask for forgiveness. And so that
has been kind of the center of my life, right? All the mistakes that I've made in life, I'm always
repent. So he'd be number one. Number two, I would say would be Sonny Vicarro. Sonny Vicarro has
guided all of this, man. This guy has navigated for young athletes forever, right? It's not just
ABCD can't. The round ball classic, our relationship with all of the shoe companies, the big time.
But it's also he's the one that nudged me into the agent space. He's the one that introduced me to
R&T. That's how I went to SFX. He's the one that is why I had a relationship with Mark Workinstein.
He's the one who I established my first relationship with Coach Tim Gertridge, who
doesn't get a lot of credit. You know, those old timers, they know him. The Gertridge camp,
that's like the first like working camp where all of these guys, Paul Pierce and Baron Davis,
all these guys over the years honed their skills. I started with Eric Snow when Coach Gert was
in Seattle. So without Sonny, I mean, man, I mean, anytime I've been in any type of situation,
first person I call is Sonny, right? Sonny, what do you think? You know, Sonny, what is your thoughts?
So Sonny, Sonny has shaped pretty much everything for me from a basketball standpoint and a career
standpoint. And then this one is, it's easy to say, but it's not. Tom Izzo. Now Tom has known me
since I was an 18 year old kid coming to Michigan State University looking to play basketball. Okay.
And he was assistant coach to Judd at that time and obviously became head coach and is, you know,
still getting it done. But Tom and I have had like this roller coaster relationship because I
dominated AAU. And at one point, I'm going to be honest, I pushed and almost suggested everybody go
to Michigan State. And then there was a period where it was like, wait a second, everybody can't
go to Michigan State. Like they got to go to other schools, which wasn't good business for Tom,
because in his mind, I want them all. Right? So me like, well, hold on, they got to look at other
spots. There was a little bit of a conflict. And so things got a little rocky for some time. But
over the years, I mean, he's the one that I went to when Matt Ischbier wanted to play basketball
in college and is like, hey, coach, I want to play. Tom, I want you to take this five foot nine kid
and let him walk on your basketball team. Right. And so that whole dynamic opened up. So,
so is this kind of been that one that holds me accountable? Like he'll just, he'll curse me out.
Right. Because he knows that I'm 18, I'm 52. Is to this day will be, you know, my nickname is Cruz.
Cruz, that's bullshit. Excuse my language. And he'll call me out on things. And so those probably
have all impacted me, I would say the most throughout my life. Well said. And kind of just
to wrap it all up. We've asked you a lot of questions today, but what was one question that
you wish we'd asked and how would you have answered it? I wish you guys would have asked about NIL
because I use this hashtag of father of NIL. Right. So everybody loves name, image and likeness,
but a lot of people don't know the history of it. Right. And so it started, it just started,
it started because everybody was saying players should get paid. Chris Webber was, when he talked
about why he went pro, he's like, man, I see my Jersey, you know, in the student bookstore and
it's selling for a hundred dollars and I can't even buy it. I'm going pro. And you've had stories for
years about that. Well, myself, Gary Charles, we would discuss it at ABC camp every year.
And we try to do some things to help. And so we initially started with filing these lawsuits
that nobody knows about. We would file these, we try to create these class action lawsuits,
right? Small ones, different states, boom, boom, boom. And we're just with our guys. It would be
whoever I had, Eric Dievendorf, Anthony Robeson, whoever, whoever Gary had, you know, Lamar Oldham,
whoever. And we'd be filing and it wouldn't get all this traction. And so we even had
we even helped football quarterback at Northwestern, Ramugi and those guys.
They were trying to become unionized. So we introduced them to the Steelworkers Union
to try to file for union. And so we had all this stuff going on. And finally that magic bullet
came. There was always, well, this guy is filing because he didn't have a NBA career. He needs
money. So he's filing. Well, this guy, like nobody ever checked the boxes until, you know, Sonny on
his own, him and Pem, you know, decided to travel to all of these universities and just talk about
the differences with college athletes not getting paid. You know, for instance, Sonny would say,
he's at South Carolina University, he'd say, hey, it'd be regular students, student union. Anybody
here play the piano or an artist? Yeah, I play. Awesome. Are you on scholarship? Yes, I'm on
scholarship. Okay. Do you get paid to play anywhere else? Yes, I play for my church. Oh,
that's awesome. You play for your church, you get paid. Yes. You know, I'm also with an outside
group and we play and I get paid. Okay. Football players and basketball players can't do the same
thing that you're doing for your church. They can't go to the church and get paid. Why is that? So
I started opening up this awareness of like, well, why are you treating these guys different? What's
different from them than me and artists, me, whatever that you do that you're on scholarship?
And it got to one guy, Ed O'Bannon. Ed O'Bannon hears Sonny on the radio and he calls. And he was
the magic bullet. Why? Because Ed, the NCAA always had an argument, but Ed checked all the boxes.
What are the boxes? You had to play in the NCAA tournament. Okay. Ed played in the NCAA tournament.
The biggest part of the NCAA tournament is the Final Four. UCLA made it to the Final Four. I think
that was 92. Not only did they make it to the Final Four, they won the championship. Boom. So
that's the biggest darling of the NCAA, is the NCAA tournament. Okay. What else? Are you suing
because you ain't got no money? Well, O'Bannon played six to eight years in the NBA. So he had
a credible NBA career. So he can't go there. And then what was the last thing? Outside of the fact
that he was also the MVP. Ed went to an NCAA darling school, a blue blood, right? UCLA, Kansas,
Kentucky. He went to a blue Michigan. He went to UCLA. So he checked all of the boxes. And so
ultimately that's how we pushed through. And who led that charge was Sonny Vicarro, myself in the
background, Gary Charles in the background, others, so on and so forth. And so where we are today,
you have Naim Image and Lightness because of that charge, which was a 15 year fight
that opened up and established NIL today. So then it brings me to another question. Out of everything
that you've done in your career, right? Everything you've had your hand on, every decision that
you've made and every impact that you've had, out of everything that you summed up today,
what do you think your greatest impact was? I can't pick one of those things and say this was the
best. I have to say it like this. I have spent the last 30 years of my life helping kids. And that
I'm incredibly proud of. Like I can, if I don't do anything else in life, I mean, I love my children,
my family and things of that nature, but I've spent 30 years helping kids at some level.
And so trying to put them in order of which was more important, was it the camp, was it NIL? I
think NIL has had probably the greatest effect as of late, but it's not like my name doesn't hang
over. Chris Gryaluchi was the one, it wasn't me. It's been years of multiple individuals,
but helping kids for the last 30 years of my life, that I'm proud of.
Bravo, my man. I'll let you go rapid this. What's in the future for you?
People look at my career and they're like, what's going on? So I had a pause. Obviously, we didn't
dive into it a lot. I lost my wife at the time, Alicia Jones, when I'm in the early going. So
kind of started all over. Got married, my wife today. I have three kids. I have a 19 year old,
I have a seven year old and I have a four year old daughter. My four year old daughter is like
changing my whole way of living, everything in life. So I love my kids. So that is like number
one, my family, I would say. That, taking a step back on my wife, right? My wife is the queen.
So family is one. I like what I'm doing at CGL right now. I like what I'm doing at CGL right now.
I believe at some point there would be a level of working with an NBA team again,
at a different level, more of maybe an executive level or consulting level.
Probably would be future. But right now, I'm focused on what I'm doing right now and that's
helping young agents, helping players, helping athletes, helping kids, helping people, but
most importantly, diving to my own kids. I love it. Well, man, that is a wrap from us.
So for everybody that's tuned into this, where can they contact you? How can they find you?
What's the best route to reach you, Chris? You can reach me at chris.luchey,
l-u-c-h-e-y, at cglsports.co, not c-o-m, dot c-o. Just going back to what we were talking about earlier,
when it comes to character, that's something that I really admired from getting to know you a little
bit more. The whole time, you've been talking about, you never talked about a dollar bill.
You never talked about what? You never talked about that type of stuff. So I really, I think
that's very admirable when it comes to just staying in China for six months, when you could have just
stayed there for the time that you needed, all that stuff. I think that's something that's
kind of a lost trait in a lot of people. Just looking at people for just the opportunity to
have and a human element and just making sure that it's just like, I'm doing what's best for you,
us, and not, the money will come. Money will come regardless. And I just wanted to say,
I really appreciate you for all that and just listening to your story. It's definitely something
very admirable. Man, I appreciate that. Oh, I probably didn't even mention that. I'm running
for state office. I am running for the House of Representatives here in the state of Georgia,
District 103, Chris for Georgia, chrisforgeorgia.org. And it's really because not that I'm
really a political individual, but I just want to help change for the community, especially for our
kids. So that's kind of my mantra, if you will, and everything. I just want to try to make things
a little bit better than when I found them.