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Ask any podcaster out there, most of 'em will tell you, you know what? I think I have a marketing problem with my podcast.

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People just aren't clicking. I don't know what it is. My promotion efforts aren't working. But more often than not, it's not a marketing problem at all.

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It's a messaging problem, and it starts with your episode titles.

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And the longer that you misdiagnose this problem, the longer your podcast is gonna stay invisible while someone with half your expertise is getting all the clicks out there from your dream listeners.

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So inside of this fix my pod coaching session, I'm helping Jennifer's spot why her dream listeners weren't hitting play on her show

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and how a few very small, very simple title tweaks can help your podcast get discovered, clicked on, and actually listened to.

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Welcome to Insider Secrets to a Top 100 podcast. I'm your host, Courtney Elmer. Let's make your business binge-worthy.

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Jennifer, welcome to the show. Thank you, Courtney. Thank you for having me on the show.

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Yes. I am so excited to dig into your podcast when I learned a little bit about you and what you do and what you're all about. I'm like, this is such a cool topic.

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So for those listening right now, tell us a little bit about what your show is and who it's for.

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My show is Family TV Uncovered, and it's about helping busy moms and maybe even dads who are tired of modern TV options and looking at Google and Reddit and other threads

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for TV recommendations of shows to watch with their families.

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And since I grew up as I, I'm gonna unashamedly say I was a TV addict when I was a child, and that was when TV was at its pinnacle in my opinion.

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And I wanted to share my knowledge of the greatest TV shows that I grew up with, with those families, because I know families don't have time to vet everything.

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And I've grown up watching these shows hundreds of times, and I still watch them with my own children.

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And my ideal listener are obviously busy moms. Maybe they're nostalgic, maybe they grew up like me on some shows, like Little House on the Prairie or Family Ties,

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and they're tired of modern stuff and tired of scrolling through everything and just want trustworthy, wholesome entertainment that aligns with their family values.

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I love this. You're speaking of my heart right now. 'cause I have a 7-year-old son and I'm curious to know, tell me a little bit about some of the challenges

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you feel like you're running into with your show right now.

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Discoverability and episode titles. I've listened to your podcast, um, your tips. I've also done some other research with other podcasters like Pat Flynn and, and other ones,

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and my episode titles. I'm always going back and forth. I think I've changed them like half a dozen times.

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I don't know whether to keep the show title name in the episode title or keep them a mystery to make people curious and to click on the episode.

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Because I know with SEO and Discoverability, having the show title in the episode name would help with that. But on the other hand, I think, well, if I'm somebody that's never seen it before

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and I have two episodes that have the name of the movie and the show in them, and people are like, oh, I already know about that. I don't wanna hear about that. And they'll, they might not click.

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So that's one thing. And then again, with discoverability, because my downloads are in that less than 20 or so, so I'm, I'm right there.

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Uh, and I'd like to grow it more. So those are the issues that I'm having.

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Okay. And I know you've told me you've had your podcast for two months and you've made it the goal to just stick with it for a year, which I think is so key.

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It's so spot on 'cause it does take time. However, during that year, what I want you to be thinking about for your podcast is this is the time to really figure out

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what your core message is and how it's differentiated from other podcasts that are maybe offering something similar.

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Have you done any research, just even outta curiosity, like on Apple or Spotify, looking to see what other podcasts that might be kind of similar to yours or offering?

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Yes. I did a lot of that before I started the podcast. Thanks to your tips. My biggest thing that I notice is that a lot of them are two people.

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There are more two people conversation type versus solo podcasters. That's one. The other thing is a lot of them have the explicit warnings.

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And I wanted to do something that was clean and doesn't have anything explicit. So in case a teenager or a tween happens to listen to my podcast,

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they're not gonna get anything inappropriate.

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Okay. I love this and I love that you're thinking about this already because really, and for everyone listening right now, there's five different ways that we can differentiate a podcast.

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We can look at the actual content itself, which you're doing. You're like, you know, a lot of the shows out there are like interview shows, or it's two people talking, they're co-hosted or whatnot. This is solo.

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We can look at the messaging and the positioning. And when I typed in, I was like, what would a listener who would probably wanna listen to Jennifer's podcast, what would they type in?

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So immediately I'm like thinking in my mind, family movie night, there's like five podcasts with literally that name. So it's like when you see something like that, that's a red flag.

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And we wanna make sure that even if your podcast is covering a similar topic, we don't want it in a listener's mind to get lumped in with all those same podcasts, right,

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that are like very, very similar. So we want it to stand out from like messaging, positioning. There's also the format and the structure, the length.

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Those are all ways that we can differentiate a podcast. Also, the editing and the production. So like the fact that yours is clean and others have like the explicit warning.

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So that's another thing there. And then the brand and the personality of the host. So I'm saying this all just for context for everyone listening right now,

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because these are all different levers that we can pull to actually further differentiate a show. So there's a couple things that are coming to mind for me

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and we're gonna dig into episode titles, but I want to back up one step before that and actually look at even the name of your podcast, which is great.

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And it is geared towards like family shows and these movies that families could literally sit down and like have a movie night.

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The one thing though that you said to me a moment ago that really jumped out is wholesome and timeless values like that. That is really the listener we're looking to attract because

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having a family movie night can be a little bit subjective in that some families aren't looking necessarily for values-based movies, but your listeners are.

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It sounds like that is something we can look at both from an SEO perspective. But also from a, who are we looking to attract perspective.

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We wanna make sure that we're thinking about our listeners' intent when they're searching for a podcast. 'cause they're going to the app. They don't know you yet.

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They don't know your show exists, but they're curious to see if a show exists on maybe some family movie recommendations beyond what they're finding on Google and Reddit

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in places like that. And then that is what we can then tap into for a podcast name for sure. But also in your episode titles,

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because these are all connected to Apple and Spotify search algorithms. And so that's gonna be really key. But first, focusing on the name of your podcast.

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So are you married to that name? Are you, would you be open to changing it if it helped you connect with more of your ideal listener? Tell me how you're feeling about that.

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I'm flexible. I'm open to changing it, and in fact, I was looking at possibly rebranding it already since I'm kind of unknown

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and I thought. No, I'll just wait until I see what Courtney has to say first.

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Yes. And you know, when it comes to rebranding, there's a lot of things we wanna look at. You know, and I'm not just gonna like make an off the wall like recommendation or anything.

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Like there's deeper stuff we wanna dig into. We wanna see that alignment with who you're looking to attract. We wanna make sure it's positioning and it's differentiation

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like that those things are standing out. And sometimes that will inform whether or not the name should be different. Sometimes it's, you know, search engine

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and we're looking at that angle of it, you know, so there's a lot of different things we wanna consider. But when I'm thinking about, you know, me being the mom of a 7-year-old son,

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first of all, what would I be typing into if I'm looking for that podcast? And then secondly, how would I know that that podcast is for me?

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Meaning, you know, when I see family movie night, again that subjective, that can mean anything to anyone. But if I saw something like the most wholesome family movie,

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reviews of all time, well that would tell me that that's for me. Right. I'm not saying that necessarily is the title, but in that direction,

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focusing on like these keywords like values or timeless or wholesome. So we want that to be evident in the name.

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So that'll be some homework for you to think about. Is search intent for your listener? What are they searching? And then also, how am I communicating in the actual name of my podcast

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that this is for the person who really cares that the family movies are clean, they're wholesome, and that they teach good values.

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Because we wanna make sure we're attracting that right listener. This is also gonna play out in your episode titles though, too.

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So tell me a little bit about your episode titles right now. It sounds like you're experimenting with some different things. So what have been some of those things you've been experimenting with so far?

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One, I wanted to thank you for your binge worthy episode cheat sheet 'cause I did buy that and I've been using that as my template. Love it.

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We can link to that in the show notes too, for anyone listening who's like, Ooh, what is that? And can I get one? Yes, it's great. I highly recommend it.

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My episode titles, for example, one of my actual, my top three episodes is one about the classic Lassie

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back in the black and white days, and it's actually a very popular Google search term. And it's actually the, what's bringing traffic to my website as well is Lassie.

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And I originally had titled it like This iconic fifties TV show is perfect for dog loving families. And it was pretty good.

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And then it reached a plateau and then I changed it to why families. Are still loving this, are still love loving Lassie, I think is what I named it.

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So, but then I went back to it 'cause it wasn't doing anything. So I'm just struggling going back and forth. And another one of my top episodes is,

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need a Feel Good Family Show tonight. Stream the Torkelson for free. And that's my highest one. I think it has 25 downloads.

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So I'm still trying to figure this out and it's been very confusing for me in trying to figure it out.

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Yeah, and that's totally normal, especially in the beginning where it's like you want people to find it, so you wanna make sure you're doing it well

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and you're optimizing so that someone can find it. And so a lot of times that can kind of back us into a corner a little bit in terms of our thinking,

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and I'm totally guilty of this in the early days of my podcast and like email subject lines and all of it. Where it's like, okay, if I get it wrong, then not many people are gonna listen.

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Or not as many people could have opened that email right as they could have. So I wanna make sure I get it right. And then we can kind of get into this like black and white kind of thinking

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where it's either right or it's not. And then that can cause us to overthink it and then we can change it. And then it's like, well, it's working, but it's not working.

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But then I actually don't even know if the title's working or if it's the title at all. Right. And then we kind of just like spiral. It's normal. Totally normal.

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And I'm sure people are nodding along right now as well, like, yep, that's me. So what I would recommend for episode titles, there's something that we always wanna make sure

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that we're including in episode titles, and that is the external payoff of listening to that episode. So what do I mean by that?

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So the external payoff, there's always reasons why we're motivated to do something. There's mm-hmm. That inner motivation, and then there's that external motivation.

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And so the external payoff really is the, what am I gonna get out of this episode? And then the internal payoff is what happens when you get the external payoff.

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So lemme give you an example. We have a client right now who is, she's rebranding her podcast and it's for women who are in like leadership roles and who are leading teams.

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And so she's like, they'll be able to lead and feel calm, they'll be able to feel confident, they'll be able to trust themselves and like trust their voice and all this.

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And I'm like, great. Those are all internal payoffs. What's the external payoff. So she kinda started thinking about it and she's like, okay.

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The external payoff is like they'll have less drama on their team and their teams will work together and it'll be a more enjoyable work environment, right?

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I'm like, okay, okay, now we're getting somewhere where it's like, what is that external payoff? So when you mention the one need a Feel Good family movie for tonight,

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it's like that's an immediate payoff where it's like, here's a recommendation I'm giving you that you can literally watch tonight and you can stream it for free.

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So you see how that external payoff is like really clear. Deeper than that, they're experiencing this yearning to have this bonding time with their family,

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and the deeper problem is kind of a lack of time with their family, or maybe a lack of connection or a lack of things to bond over.

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Maybe they're wanting to start, you know, a Saturday night movie tradition or something, right? That value matters to them spending that quality time,

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and so that's the internal payoff or the transformation that happens when the external problem is solved. And so that's really important when we can speak to

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how we help them solve the external problem, which helps them achieve the internal payoff. It comes full circle.

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Wow. Boy, I'm glad I mentioned that 'cause you just helped clarify things even more for me. Yes. Good, good, good, good.

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Yeah, I'm glad you brought it up too, 'cause that is really important. I guess my other concern was too, is like, are my titles getting too long? That was the other thing I was worrying about.

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Yes. Shorter is better in that we wanna make sure, you know, specificity, clarity, and brevity is like the perfect storm.

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When we can be specific, clear and succinct, then it's a lot easier for the listener's brain to process. And when they don't have to think about something,

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then they're more likely to click because we're not making them work too hard. And think about your own user behavior. You know, if you're going through a podcast

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and it's like, I don't know, think about my show. And if I have like some really long title about like, you know, the Psychology Behind, you Know, why listeners Click Play on this episode

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versus other episodes and like, I don't know, some long-winded title. And it wasn't really clear what the payoff was, and you're like, I don't even know what you're talking about, Courtney,

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so therefore I'm just gonna look for another episode. That actually makes sense to me.

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Yeah. So we just have to always be putting ourselves in our listener's shoes and thinking about when they're scrolling through something, you know, they've got a million things on their mind,

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they're probably busy. They're looking for something specific. And in this case, I think your ideal listener will be looking, you know, when it's like, what can we watch tonight?

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What can we watch this weekend? You know? And they may find your show through a search first. And then discover, oh my gosh, Jennifer has this incredible podcast.

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Now I wanna listen to more of her episodes. So the more we can tap into that as well in episode titles, the more that we can optimize their ability to find it in search

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to lead them back to your podcast. Yeah. The other thing I noticed too, that makes me different 'cause it's about the angle, is that a lot of these TV reviews are lengthy.

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They're like 30 minutes to an hour where I'm trying to make it 10 minutes or less.

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Yes. Okay. And so this is really good too, because this is another differentiator that you can lean into. Yes. And you know, if we can angle,

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'cause you're right, it is about the angle and that's really all this is. And once we can figure out what that angle is, then you're gonna be able to get on a roll with this.

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So. You know if, if you've got a five, like this last episode you put out was five minutes, but I may be looking at the title and I might not even notice the length of the episode,

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positioning the title as how I'm Saving You Time by learning about this movie. Before you sit down for an hour and a half and watch it with your family, right?

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That wouldn't be the title, but that's what we're communicating through the title. And so, you know, as a busy parent, I think you're really onto something there.

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I don't necessarily want to listen to a 30 minute episode of a movie just to be able to watch the movie. I would just like to know what values are being taught.

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Is this movie clean? What are some of the things I can expect from this movie? Maybe what are some of the talking points I could have with my family after this movie?

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And that's it. Okay, great. Like, so I think the title that you had about. The original one about for families who love dogs or for families who love cooking,

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or for families who love X, Y, Z, that could be another something to play with in your titles as well, because now you're calling out specific aspects of the people who are clicking through,

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and you know, when they start getting used to the fact that your episodes are short, they've got clear takeaways. You know, they can kind of listen to get a quick overview of what's in

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That movie before committing to that movie, they'll feel a lot better about committing to that movie and that payoff is really clear in the title for them.

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I got it. Okay. What about Epi episode? I have some episodes where I develop this thing that I call a pause and preview guide, where there are some things that have what I consider questionable content,

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and I include links to download where I already have the time codes and what each scene may be appropriate. So it's like a warning. So it's for the parent to download,

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look at it if they even wanna watch it, or they can skip through it. So for episodes where I have a download guide, should I include that in the title? Or not.

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So that's another thing that we can look at, which is, you know, if you have re recurring segments or like for this one, pause and preview or, you know, parental,

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parental control is not the word I'm looking for. Right. But it's like, that's what came to mind. Like what's on the TV where you're like, yeah, the parental controls are on.

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Yeah. You know, it's like something like that, that's really catchy that people would immediately get, oh, that's what this is about. Okay, great.

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And then they start to see that consistently in your podcast over time. Then they, you know, repeat listeners will begin to understand, oh, I like to tune into these particular segments

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when Jennifer drops these because that she's gonna give me that information. And that's another differentiator as well, you know, with different segments or different things that you're talking about.

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So I think you've got a lot going really well for you in terms of your content, right? 'cause you're angling it for that busy mom. Your episodes are short.

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You're giving them really actionable takeaways. You're tying things into the values and stuff that they're gonna get, and so now we just need to connect the dot on the front end for your listener.

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Mm-hmm. Starting with the podcast itself and the name itself, so that we know we're attracting that person who ultimately values, having family values in the movies,

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but then also so that the payoff of the episodes is clear. 'cause again, remember for your busy mom or busy parent who's scrolling through, they're just looking for something to know

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like, is this movie okay? And so the more that you can have that really kind of front and center in your episode titles, the more clicks you're gonna get.

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Okay. And I think the biggest one for you, thinking about what are people searching, and you can utilize search tools for this as well, like Google Keyword Planner and different, you know, keyword tools.

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What are people already searching on Google and other search engines. Mm-hmm. Because if they're looking for family movies to watch tonight and we want them to

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Stumble upon your podcast in a Google search, which ironically is how you found my podcast. And so if we know that that could be an entry point into your podcast,

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then we wanna make sure we're tapping into that as well. Because I think for you, people are gonna be less likely to find a show like yours just by looking in the Apple and Spotify apps.

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They might, but I think they'd probably go to Google first to type in like family movies to watch tonight. Yes, I've done that search myself. That makes sense.

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Yeah. I just have this passion for this. I've always had it growing up. And the weird thing too, how my life has come full circle, it's because I grew up watching all of these things

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and then eventually after college, you know, I actually made a career out of it. 'cause I have this history of working with CBS and on the radio with two major LA radio stations

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Where I actually ended up meeting a lot of these actors and stuff on these shows that I grew up watching all my life. And so it's pretty funny how my life has come full circle with that.

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That's amazing. Well, I can just see through your content how passionate you are about this, and I think it takes someone like you, like who really cares about this

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and that there are other people out there who care too, but they just don't have the time to go and research the movies themselves. Like you are solving a real problem for people

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and you're filling a big need, and I think that that right there is what we need as a foundation for a podcast, and you've got that because you're clear on the problem that you solve.

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Really. I think at this point, it's honestly just a matter of connecting the dots for the listener in those mm-hmm