WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:03.040 Ever wonder what really happens behind the scenes 00:00:03.040 --> 00:00:05.360 in construction, real estate, and development? 00:00:05.679 --> 00:00:08.220 We pull back the curtain on the new home construction 00:00:08.220 --> 00:00:11.060 industry, the real estate market, and the trends 00:00:11.060 --> 00:00:14.080 shaping it all. Discover the stories, insights, 00:00:14.240 --> 00:00:16.219 and expertise behind the process of building 00:00:16.219 --> 00:00:19.640 a new home. Join us for Trust the Process podcast, 00:00:19.940 --> 00:00:22.460 and let's build something great together. Welcome 00:00:22.460 --> 00:00:25.399 back to Trust the Process, podcast where we talk 00:00:25.399 --> 00:00:28.539 about the real estate industry, new home construction, 00:00:28.820 --> 00:00:32.520 the housing industry, and everything in between. 00:00:33.000 --> 00:00:35.270 Today, our in between is going to take us As 00:00:35.270 --> 00:00:39.670 to a term you may or may not have heard, a McMansion. 00:00:40.950 --> 00:00:43.850 You have to say it with that twang. A funny term. 00:00:43.890 --> 00:00:46.770 Yeah. So this was recently introduced to me, 00:00:46.869 --> 00:00:49.109 something I hadn't heard referred in this way. 00:00:49.109 --> 00:00:51.350 So although I know what it is, once explained 00:00:51.350 --> 00:00:55.329 to me, the term itself maybe didn't ever cross 00:00:55.329 --> 00:00:59.409 my path. So a McMansion is just an informal term 00:00:59.409 --> 00:01:02.670 that was coined kind of in the late 90s, early 00:01:02.670 --> 00:01:06.980 2000s to describe the rise of large suburban 00:01:06.980 --> 00:01:11.340 homes. It's now become a pejorative, it has pejorative 00:01:11.340 --> 00:01:14.480 connotations because it was, there's been a lot 00:01:14.480 --> 00:01:17.060 of bad players that built a lot of bad McMansions. 00:01:17.519 --> 00:01:19.920 So I think it always had a negative tilt and 00:01:19.920 --> 00:01:21.500 I'm not, there's a certain fast food company 00:01:21.500 --> 00:01:23.739 that it's named after and the thought was that 00:01:23.739 --> 00:01:29.370 they're mass produced, low quality and. big portions, 00:01:29.670 --> 00:01:31.870 right? So that's kind of, I'm not going to say 00:01:31.870 --> 00:01:35.430 what company that they're named after. Nobody 00:01:35.430 --> 00:01:37.269 could guess that. Nobody could guess what that 00:01:37.269 --> 00:01:40.209 is. So it was kind of coined in that way. And 00:01:40.209 --> 00:01:43.030 if you look at the average home size in the late 00:01:43.030 --> 00:01:44.709 seventies and early eighties started to really 00:01:44.709 --> 00:01:49.370 swell. And I think it was around 13 or 1400 in 00:01:49.370 --> 00:01:52.090 the sixties and seventies. And then by the eighties, 00:01:52.189 --> 00:01:54.950 it was getting over 2000. And I think now it's 00:01:54.950 --> 00:01:58.069 kind of, it kind of hit up. stability a stable 00:01:58.069 --> 00:02:01.849 point Around the around the 90s and now it's 00:02:01.849 --> 00:02:04.670 around 2200 and it's kind of stayed there bounces 00:02:04.670 --> 00:02:07.890 between 22 and 2400 still a really large home 00:02:07.890 --> 00:02:11.250 if you think about how big a 22 or 2300 Square 00:02:11.250 --> 00:02:13.750 -foot home is considering that that's the average 00:02:13.750 --> 00:02:16.650 So there's a lot of homes that are a lot bigger 00:02:16.650 --> 00:02:19.129 than that and to think about the amount of homes 00:02:19.129 --> 00:02:21.689 There's so many homes that are probably you know 00:02:21.689 --> 00:02:24.310 smaller your averages are thrown you've got to 00:02:24.310 --> 00:02:26.189 have a lot of seven eight thousand square foot 00:02:26.189 --> 00:02:28.370 homes six thousand square foot homes there's 00:02:28.370 --> 00:02:31.069 so many 1200 square foot homes out there and 00:02:31.069 --> 00:02:33.830 then also those are so there's two ways to look 00:02:33.830 --> 00:02:35.469 at it what's this average square footage of a 00:02:35.469 --> 00:02:37.449 newly built home that number always skews larger 00:02:37.449 --> 00:02:42.189 than the average Home in America is X number 00:02:42.189 --> 00:02:44.129 of square feet because you're factoring in all 00:02:44.129 --> 00:02:45.789 the homes built in the 40s and 50s that are still 00:02:45.789 --> 00:02:48.610 standing that are 980 square feet. Yeah and different 00:02:48.610 --> 00:02:50.689 areas. Different areas have different home sizes. 00:02:50.849 --> 00:02:52.870 I mean definitely as we've gone west and in the 00:02:52.870 --> 00:02:56.129 Sun Belt where the areas are newer everything 00:02:56.129 --> 00:02:58.409 gets bigger and bigger and bigger and if you 00:02:58.409 --> 00:03:00.349 I'm passionate about these because number one 00:03:00.349 --> 00:03:04.169 I don't I don't think all McMansions are bad. 00:03:04.270 --> 00:03:07.509 I think that McMansions are kind of part of the 00:03:07.509 --> 00:03:09.330 American dream. If they weren't, they would have 00:03:09.330 --> 00:03:11.250 gone away by now. There's obviously a demand 00:03:11.250 --> 00:03:14.310 for them. But I wanted to first kind of define 00:03:14.310 --> 00:03:16.750 what the conventional wisdom of a McMansion is. 00:03:16.849 --> 00:03:19.270 It's usually bigger than 3 ,000 square feet, 00:03:19.509 --> 00:03:22.689 oftentimes has a three car garage. It's almost 00:03:22.689 --> 00:03:26.129 always in suburbia. So it's generally built in 00:03:26.129 --> 00:03:29.030 the neighborhood of other exact copies or similar 00:03:29.030 --> 00:03:32.969 homes. And then the death knell for most. architects 00:03:32.969 --> 00:03:35.629 is that they don't have a lot of architectural 00:03:35.629 --> 00:03:38.469 integrity. So it's kind of in the 90s, we had 00:03:38.469 --> 00:03:41.009 an architectural style that was kind of a word 00:03:41.009 --> 00:03:44.169 for a style that was coined, transitional. So 00:03:44.169 --> 00:03:46.830 transitional architecture is going to kind of 00:03:46.830 --> 00:03:50.069 pull from a lot of components. And in the 90s 00:03:50.069 --> 00:03:51.889 and kind of during the rise of the McMansion, 00:03:52.050 --> 00:03:55.509 the Palladian style architecture. So think early 00:03:55.509 --> 00:03:58.150 Monticello and those kind of homes with the Palladian 00:03:58.150 --> 00:04:02.229 windows, which is just an arched window with 00:04:02.240 --> 00:04:06.500 with grids in it, a lot of brick, a lot of big 00:04:06.500 --> 00:04:08.680 grand entry ways, a lot of double doors. So there 00:04:08.680 --> 00:04:11.460 were kind of these mini manners. And that was 00:04:11.460 --> 00:04:14.400 the architectural style back then. And as everything 00:04:14.400 --> 00:04:17.939 goes, a lot of builders are not versed in architectural 00:04:17.939 --> 00:04:21.079 style. So they're doing copycat. Me too. Okay. 00:04:21.199 --> 00:04:24.740 I like that arched window. If I do this on a 00:04:24.740 --> 00:04:26.740 3000 square foot home and make it have a three 00:04:26.740 --> 00:04:28.519 car garage and have a formal living area and 00:04:28.519 --> 00:04:32.589 big columns. So it kind of... got stuck in that 00:04:32.589 --> 00:04:35.029 style. So when you think of a McMansion, generally 00:04:35.029 --> 00:04:36.370 for me, and I think a lot of people that are 00:04:36.370 --> 00:04:37.850 familiar with the term, they're probably thinking 00:04:37.850 --> 00:04:42.709 of that late 80s or into the 90s, big suburban 00:04:42.709 --> 00:04:46.930 house, brick, arched windows, big columns, columns 00:04:46.930 --> 00:04:50.550 on the inside, kind of maybe one side is brick, 00:04:50.670 --> 00:04:53.569 the rest is vinyl siding. Just not a lot of textual 00:04:53.569 --> 00:04:57.170 integrity. But I would argue this really fancy, 00:04:57.170 --> 00:05:01.970 but it looks fancy, but it's not okay and Unfortunately 00:05:01.970 --> 00:05:04.689 before we had such rigorous codes they had reputations 00:05:04.689 --> 00:05:07.410 of being really poorly built thrown up really 00:05:07.410 --> 00:05:10.709 quickly Not good with energy efficiency volume 00:05:10.709 --> 00:05:14.829 ceilings Maybe not maybe just insulation built 00:05:14.829 --> 00:05:17.209 to code whatever the code was at that time cheap 00:05:17.209 --> 00:05:19.569 windows So they just had this that this perception 00:05:19.569 --> 00:05:21.829 that they're cheap to build they deliver a lot 00:05:21.829 --> 00:05:25.069 of value But they're expensive to maintain So, 00:05:25.250 --> 00:05:28.089 and a lot of that holds true. And out west, that 00:05:28.089 --> 00:05:30.410 style, we have a lot of them here in Las Vegas, 00:05:30.449 --> 00:05:32.470 and that's, we got stuck with the Mediterranean 00:05:32.470 --> 00:05:35.550 style, became our McMansion. So you see a lot 00:05:35.550 --> 00:05:38.910 of turrets, a lot of fake stone, a lot of clay 00:05:38.910 --> 00:05:41.850 tile roofs and things like that that are kind 00:05:41.850 --> 00:05:45.029 of symbolic of a west of the Mississippi McMansion. 00:05:46.029 --> 00:05:49.310 But again, we're seeing modern McMansions now. 00:05:49.550 --> 00:05:53.360 So what's popular now, is, at least in a lot 00:05:53.360 --> 00:05:56.339 of the West, is a desert contemporary or modern 00:05:56.339 --> 00:06:00.459 architectural style, linear, flat roofs. And 00:06:00.459 --> 00:06:03.800 it's a bastardization of what modern architecture... 00:06:03.839 --> 00:06:06.120 is, which is taking advantage of, especially 00:06:06.120 --> 00:06:08.519 desert contemporary, it's taking advantage of 00:06:08.519 --> 00:06:10.579 where the sun is. You're hiding from the sun 00:06:10.579 --> 00:06:11.939 with desert contemporary architecture because 00:06:11.939 --> 00:06:14.199 sun is plentiful, whereas back east maybe you'd 00:06:14.199 --> 00:06:17.160 be trying to capture the sun. But it takes these 00:06:17.160 --> 00:06:19.459 fundamental elements of architecture and reduces 00:06:19.459 --> 00:06:22.160 them down and then spoon feeds it to the masses. 00:06:22.879 --> 00:06:27.379 So that's the bad. That is McMansion's behaving 00:06:27.379 --> 00:06:31.269 badly. Where I think that McMansions make a lot 00:06:31.269 --> 00:06:35.860 of sense does provide a lot of flexibility. Generally 00:06:35.860 --> 00:06:38.600 moving out later in life. Maybe family moms are 00:06:38.600 --> 00:06:40.379 moving back in dads are moving back in aunts 00:06:40.379 --> 00:06:42.660 and uncles It allows the square footage allows 00:06:42.660 --> 00:06:44.779 for a lot of doubling up of residences Which 00:06:44.779 --> 00:06:46.699 which happens as cities become more developed 00:06:46.699 --> 00:06:48.800 to get more expensive and as the country things 00:06:48.800 --> 00:06:50.959 get more expensive So I like the functionality 00:06:50.959 --> 00:06:53.519 that they have and then selfishly as a builder 00:06:53.519 --> 00:06:55.579 generally what you're building and what you're 00:06:55.579 --> 00:06:58.079 selling is square footage Unfortunately when 00:06:58.079 --> 00:06:59.939 we list one of our spec homes and I see that 00:06:59.939 --> 00:07:03.110 Z estimate pop up The algorithms are using your 00:07:03.110 --> 00:07:05.430 zip code your bill and square footage because 00:07:05.430 --> 00:07:07.930 how come we can have our Brielle model 3 ,800 00:07:07.930 --> 00:07:11.230 and our Messina model 4 ,200 Zillow doesn't know 00:07:11.230 --> 00:07:12.889 that they're on one has a better lot than the 00:07:12.889 --> 00:07:15.350 other but the Messina one has a higher Z Estimate 00:07:15.350 --> 00:07:18.769 because it's 4 ,300 versus 3 ,800 for what reason 00:07:18.769 --> 00:07:21.209 it shows you that square footage so so as a builder 00:07:21.209 --> 00:07:24.569 you can either choose to die on that hill or 00:07:24.569 --> 00:07:27.410 Build and get on the McMansion train But again, 00:07:27.529 --> 00:07:29.290 I don't think it necessarily always has to be 00:07:29.290 --> 00:07:32.050 a bad thing. So they were doing cookie cutter 00:07:32.050 --> 00:07:33.350 production type neighborhoods. Yeah. Hey, people 00:07:33.350 --> 00:07:35.170 like Palladian architecture. Let's do everything 00:07:35.170 --> 00:07:37.529 in Palladian. A lot of LS in Houston have a lot 00:07:37.529 --> 00:07:40.089 of Palladian architecture. High roof pitches, 00:07:40.930 --> 00:07:45.019 arched windows, and brick facades. It's not always 00:07:45.019 --> 00:07:47.920 a bad thing, but ultimately, builders are capitalists, 00:07:47.939 --> 00:07:49.759 so they're gonna build what sells if that style 00:07:49.759 --> 00:07:52.139 is trendy now. We're seeing it play out with 00:07:52.139 --> 00:07:54.839 our modern architecture going all up and down 00:07:54.839 --> 00:07:58.220 the suburbs of Las Vegas and Phoenix. A lot of 00:07:58.220 --> 00:08:00.939 modern architecture, and it's not. You can't 00:08:00.939 --> 00:08:03.720 lop the roof off of a house. Take away any architectural 00:08:03.720 --> 00:08:05.769 embellishment. and call it modern architecture. 00:08:06.290 --> 00:08:08.449 You could argue that's minimalist architecture, 00:08:08.810 --> 00:08:10.910 but that's not modern architecture, and they're 00:08:10.910 --> 00:08:12.610 selling it in such a way and taking advantage 00:08:12.610 --> 00:08:15.949 of maybe less informed or just less sophisticated 00:08:15.949 --> 00:08:17.930 buyers. I don't mean that in a negative way. 00:08:18.089 --> 00:08:20.709 They're just not house nerds like I am, which 00:08:20.709 --> 00:08:23.990 is fine, but I hate to see that happening. So 00:08:23.990 --> 00:08:26.389 if you look at a lot of what we build, I try 00:08:26.389 --> 00:08:28.509 to either, if I can't be true to an architectural 00:08:28.509 --> 00:08:31.610 style, we'll at least be minimal with our style. 00:08:31.670 --> 00:08:34.080 I don't mean minimalist, but just say, Avoid 00:08:34.080 --> 00:08:36.600 the hallmarks of today's trends because these 00:08:36.600 --> 00:08:38.720 homes are not going to age well With all those 00:08:38.720 --> 00:08:41.860 hallmarks to say you look at a lot of Southern 00:08:41.860 --> 00:08:44.600 California and Phoenix and Las Vegas What style 00:08:44.600 --> 00:08:47.059 do you see in the late 80s and early 90s a lot 00:08:47.059 --> 00:08:51.320 of that salt box? white shades of white stucco 00:08:51.320 --> 00:08:54.200 with window embellishment and you can spot a 00:08:54.200 --> 00:08:57.980 1989 built home in the West With very little 00:08:57.980 --> 00:09:00.200 architectural knowledge. Yep. You can kind of 00:09:00.200 --> 00:09:02.779 tell where it went and where it was built. So 00:09:02.990 --> 00:09:06.929 think there's a blend and I think that McMansions 00:09:06.929 --> 00:09:09.730 are just the nature of when you suburbanize and 00:09:09.730 --> 00:09:12.289 when you're Trying to spread out all that infrastructure 00:09:12.289 --> 00:09:15.110 and all those costs over a hundred homes The 00:09:15.110 --> 00:09:16.990 bigger and the more expensive the homes are the 00:09:16.990 --> 00:09:19.830 the more those costs are minimized So I think 00:09:19.830 --> 00:09:22.549 it's just the economics of home building. So 00:09:22.549 --> 00:09:28.000 I'm passionate about the topic. I I look at McMansions 00:09:28.000 --> 00:09:30.879 with scrutiny, you know, I definitely very critical 00:09:30.879 --> 00:09:33.419 a lot of McMansions in my own neighborhood, right? 00:09:33.620 --> 00:09:37.039 And it's it's okay though They're still homes 00:09:37.039 --> 00:09:39.360 and this connotation that because they were built 00:09:39.360 --> 00:09:40.919 fast or because they're built in a certain era 00:09:40.919 --> 00:09:43.120 It wasn't always it doesn't always mean they're 00:09:43.120 --> 00:09:46.639 built poorly so those factors, you know in the 00:09:46.639 --> 00:09:49.879 80s when builders corporatized and You had a 00:09:49.879 --> 00:09:52.340 lot of production builders kind of coming into 00:09:52.340 --> 00:09:55.080 into the marketplace and going public and there 00:09:55.080 --> 00:09:58.179 was really no a corporate builder before the 00:09:58.179 --> 00:10:01.419 80s. It was kind of an 80s and 90s invention 00:10:01.419 --> 00:10:03.679 that we still live with to this day. And I think 00:10:03.679 --> 00:10:07.259 that kind of allowed those, that shareholder 00:10:07.259 --> 00:10:10.960 driven mentality has made McMansion. Then there's 00:10:10.960 --> 00:10:13.100 some other innovations in engineering that has 00:10:13.100 --> 00:10:15.419 allowed the McMansion, the truss, which we've 00:10:15.419 --> 00:10:18.059 talked about in the past, the truss plate, just 00:10:18.059 --> 00:10:20.889 allowed for greater spans, it allowed. us to 00:10:20.889 --> 00:10:23.009 build bigger homes and actually at a cost per 00:10:23.009 --> 00:10:25.669 square when adjusted for inflation and a backup 00:10:25.669 --> 00:10:28.889 certain things that are affected in new home 00:10:28.889 --> 00:10:30.950 legislation and things like that. But overall 00:10:30.950 --> 00:10:32.870 we were able to build a lot larger spaces a lot 00:10:32.870 --> 00:10:34.909 more effectively and efficiently which has brought 00:10:34.909 --> 00:10:37.950 the cost down. And so categorically it's a home 00:10:37.950 --> 00:10:42.029 that is larger square footage with very little 00:10:42.029 --> 00:10:44.649 substance beyond that. Kind of it's all sizzle 00:10:44.649 --> 00:10:48.549 no stake. Okay. But generally it's funny. It's 00:10:48.549 --> 00:10:50.809 funny that you that when we try to put a pin 00:10:50.809 --> 00:10:54.470 on it because it evades you because One of the 00:10:54.470 --> 00:10:57.309 hallmarks are a lot of cheap embellishments a 00:10:57.309 --> 00:10:59.490 lot of cornice details that I made of styrofoam 00:10:59.490 --> 00:11:01.769 instead of wood They are meant to look hand -carved. 00:11:01.769 --> 00:11:04.700 It's kind of imitation so it's not necessarily 00:11:04.700 --> 00:11:07.360 always that they lack the embellishments and 00:11:07.360 --> 00:11:09.240 they lack the substance because many times they 00:11:09.240 --> 00:11:12.539 do it's just the materials that are in them that 00:11:12.539 --> 00:11:15.139 are making them try to appear to be a matter 00:11:15.139 --> 00:11:18.399 you know a lord and a lady live there when really 00:11:18.399 --> 00:11:26.799 it's a CPA and a that's those materials are cheap 00:11:26.799 --> 00:11:30.460 knockoffs of what it's emulating but I argue 00:11:30.460 --> 00:11:33.370 that why does Why does chrome molding that you'll 00:11:33.370 --> 00:11:34.950 never touch or even be able to reach, why does 00:11:34.950 --> 00:11:36.789 that need to be solid wood? Why can't that be 00:11:36.789 --> 00:11:39.970 MDF? A lightweight material, easy to work with, 00:11:40.190 --> 00:11:42.590 doesn't require all the logging and all the other 00:11:42.590 --> 00:11:45.429 issues that came along with those heavy molding 00:11:45.429 --> 00:11:47.909 and built out of hardwood. Why is that just not 00:11:47.909 --> 00:11:51.049 the progression of home building? Those materials 00:11:51.049 --> 00:11:53.669 are most likely, now some of them are more moisture 00:11:53.669 --> 00:11:56.370 -sensitive than others. MDF will literally swallow 00:11:56.370 --> 00:12:00.590 up like a sponge, but does it get the job done? 00:12:00.809 --> 00:12:03.490 Does it give you that look and feel? Does it 00:12:03.490 --> 00:12:05.750 make you feel warm when you come home? Does it 00:12:05.750 --> 00:12:07.730 really matter if your crown molding is solid 00:12:07.730 --> 00:12:11.529 oak painted white or stained versus MDF, which 00:12:11.529 --> 00:12:15.970 was spit out of sawdust? I'm not too cynical 00:12:15.970 --> 00:12:18.450 on McMansions, but I, you know, like I said, 00:12:18.590 --> 00:12:19.629 I always look at them with scrutiny. Is there 00:12:19.629 --> 00:12:22.330 another term for them? I mean, it's a subcategory 00:12:22.330 --> 00:12:25.549 of something. Did it just not exist? How else 00:12:25.549 --> 00:12:29.259 do people call it? Boxes and then it began No, 00:12:29.259 --> 00:12:32.139 I don't think it had I think it was no it was 00:12:32.139 --> 00:12:35.240 it was it was started with a natural progression 00:12:35.240 --> 00:12:38.440 right this builders in the 40s and 50s went from 00:12:38.440 --> 00:12:41.799 building row houses townhouses and cities to 00:12:41.799 --> 00:12:44.139 the invention of the suburb and the first suburbs 00:12:44.139 --> 00:12:46.000 Levittown all those places in the northeastern 00:12:46.000 --> 00:12:48.679 seaboard were small basically apartments that 00:12:48.679 --> 00:12:51.330 weren't attached if you look at those homes I 00:12:51.330 --> 00:12:53.230 think it was like a ranger model. They had to 00:12:53.230 --> 00:12:55.049 get three different models and he built hundreds 00:12:55.049 --> 00:12:57.789 of thousands of them in the East Coast. And they 00:12:57.789 --> 00:13:00.190 were, I think the biggest they got was 1 ,200 00:13:00.190 --> 00:13:02.370 square feet. So they were taking these apartments 00:13:02.370 --> 00:13:04.730 and saying, well, obviously we've been used to 00:13:04.730 --> 00:13:06.450 living in an 800, 900 square feet anyway, but 00:13:06.450 --> 00:13:08.570 now you have a yard. Now you can grill, now you 00:13:08.570 --> 00:13:11.629 can do these things. So like anything, it just 00:13:11.629 --> 00:13:14.210 had to become a status symbol. Oh, we all live 00:13:14.210 --> 00:13:16.759 in a suburb. Well, how do we... How do we design 00:13:16.759 --> 00:13:18.960 status? Well, we want a bigger home in the suburbs. 00:13:19.440 --> 00:13:21.659 So they just started to grow and there's more 00:13:21.659 --> 00:13:24.500 margin in building larger homes and builders 00:13:24.500 --> 00:13:26.799 favor those things. And I think it just slowly 00:13:26.799 --> 00:13:30.039 progressed and McMansion is a way to retrospectively 00:13:30.039 --> 00:13:32.740 look back at a style. And we still do it today, 00:13:32.740 --> 00:13:35.100 but it's a way to look back and say, oh, those 00:13:35.100 --> 00:13:38.620 are McMansions. So yeah, I don't think it grew 00:13:38.620 --> 00:13:40.620 out of anything except just what are we going 00:13:40.620 --> 00:13:43.480 to call these things? And like we mentioned it. 00:13:43.720 --> 00:13:45.840 Little bit ago and yet you had never heard the 00:13:45.840 --> 00:13:47.720 term and you've been in this industry for a long 00:13:47.720 --> 00:13:49.500 time and you're an architectural enthusiast and 00:13:49.500 --> 00:13:51.919 your design enthusiast and you never come across 00:13:51.919 --> 00:13:55.379 it so yeah, I think it's just kind of a It's 00:13:55.379 --> 00:14:01.419 vernacular. Yeah. Yeah. Well now I appreciate 00:14:01.419 --> 00:14:04.220 it and thank you for joining us on this episode 00:14:04.220 --> 00:14:06.480 of trust the process podcast We look forward 00:14:06.480 --> 00:14:11.190 to seeing you next time. Thanks Thanks for tuning 00:14:11.190 --> 00:14:13.730 into the Press the Process podcast. Make sure 00:14:13.730 --> 00:14:16.149 to follow us on Spotify to stay in the loop with 00:14:16.149 --> 00:14:18.929 the latest insights, project updates, and everything 00:14:18.929 --> 00:14:20.649 in between. See you next time.