Hello, and welcome back to Real Talk with Rayne
and Gabe. I'm Gabe. Hello. Today we are going
to discuss LGBTQ plus representation in media.
Yeah, that. My brain is fried. I've been working
all day. Don't come for me. So I know Gabe came
up with a list of some media. pieces that we
can look at and talk about. So Gabe, what do
you think we should start with? Let's start with
stuff done by Vizipop with Hell of a Boss and
Hazbit Hotel, mostly just because I feel like
that is a good representation of LGBTQ media
on current modern viewpoint. and also in the
indie space as well. So by indie, I'm referring
to something that's not Disney, that's not Nickelodeon,
that's not worried, that's not Cartoon Network,
that's not worried about a reputation to uphold,
unlike Netflix and Amazon Prime, where they can
be a little bit more open to quote unquote. I
don't even know what word to use to describe
it because it's not even that bad, but - Being
progressive? Yeah. I don't know. I feel, and
we can obviously go into a lot of detail about
the shows, about Vivzie Pop, but I think one
of the biggest things to at least acknowledge
is that she is paving the way for a lot of indie
animators in the industry and getting picked
up by Amazon Prime is a huge deal. for an indie
animator, like to start on YouTube and then get
picked up at Amazon Prime, that's like the dream,
right? So she's paving the way a little bit.
Not to say that there weren't people before her
that did that, obviously are, but it's interesting
because when you think about it and some of the
quotes that I've seen are like not necessarily
quotes, but I've read some articles about people
discussing this and a lot of them are talking
about how I don't know if you agree with this
or not, but the character design is very, what
somebody called Tumblr -esque. Whereas I don't
understand what that means. I was never a Tumblr
person, so I don't know what that means. I know
that she - I can explain it a bit if you like.
Yeah, if you would, because then I may have a
better idea. Yeah, so the Tumblr art style is
- And it's intended to be derogatory, right?
It's intended to be an insult to an art style
or a artist in general. Basically, if an art
style is popular enough on Tumblr, a lot of younger
artists will see that style and bring it into
their own art style, right? So it'll become almost
like a trend. You could see like when people
talk about the Cal Arts style. They're talking
about, like, the Steven Universe and the gumball
kind of style where it's very rounded, very big
eyes, very, like, bean shapes. But that doesn't
mean... That's not entirely CalArts. That's not
an entire school's art style. That's just an
art style that is popular in animation. And with
Fizzy Pop, because her style... was not only
very popular on Tumblr at the time, she was a
very popular Tumblr artist for a long time, had
comics and animations and stuff before she started
really growing on YouTube and stuff. So people
will see that kind of style and immediately use
the derogatory term of Tumblr art styles. And
maybe I'm not using the word derogatory correctly.
It might be a little bit too harsh, but it's
intended to be an insult, right? It's intended
to be something to call an art style ugly, unappealing,
repetitive, not creative, not original. I think
so. How is it not original? Or even just too
woke is another thing as well, is Tumblr art
styles are too woke. So some Tumblr art styles
will include body hair. on people, so women will
have unshaved legs. OK. Or women would. Is that
not OK for is this like a hot take for women
and not have shaved legs? It is when you draw
them. It's a very high. They would consider it
because they consider it unappealing and this
Tumblr artist is making it. Therefore, it's a
part of the Tumblr art style. But all that to
say with Vizipop's art style. It is very much
like it was popularized on Tumblr, therefore...
Tumblr art style. There's not really... It's
intended to be an insult. It's intended to be
a jab at her woke agenda. It's intended to further
insult the fact that she... That her art style
is the way that it is. God forbid people just
make art and have their own style and just enjoy
making art in their own fucking style. God forbid.
Every art style has critiques, right? Because
in Bizzy Brock's style, you cannot really have
plus -sized models and characters without it
being weird, right? She doesn't have a lot of
examples that I've seen that aren't stacked.
You don't have tall... bigger people you have
stout little people not little there's some side
characters at least or like minor characters
that I've seen that Were taller and curvier,
but if we're talking about I think it's mimsy
we're talking about like mimsy who's like very
Like short and curvy. That's who I thought of
yeah, yeah, but yeah, I don't know I'm short
and curvy so represent. All right, go off mimsy.
I don't know I When I hear that it just makes
me think of it almost feels like people can't
even share their passions with the world anymore
without people feeling like they're entitled
to tell you what they think about it and like
their opinion is gonna change what you do with
your art and it's you can't just be happy with
people that they found something that they love
to do and that they're passionate about doing
and that they're sharing it with everybody. If
you don't like it, good for you. Move on. Find
something better to do with your life than sit
there and trash on somebody who is just trying
to do something that makes them happy. God forbid
people do things that make them happy that aren't
hurting anybody else. God forbid. Like, it's
just, so that's annoying to hear that was what
they meant. So continuing with that thought is...
So I guess what they were saying then now that
you've explained that to me is like somebody
with Viv's art style, which is in their thought
is not a good art style or not like an art style
that would typically be picked up and streamed
on a big platform. That's unique. And I'm like,
but what, at what point, like what constitutes
unique art? What makes art? good enough for streaming.
There's so many different styles like Teen Titans
Go, regular Teen Titans, like Cartoon Network
shows, they all have different styles. Danny
Phantom, Fairly Odd Parents, like Butch Hartman
did a lot of, he has a very specific style that
you could tell that it was done by him. And I
don't feel like anybody's ever complained about
those shows and their art style. Like I... I
might just be very chronically offline and I'm
not a digital artist or an illustrator, so I'm
not in that field. I'm not in that community
much, so I don't really know the politics. So
it's interesting to me to hear that because I'm
like, isn't a style just more of a subjective
thing? You would think so, yeah, because in animation...
the art style usually has to be simplified, right?
So that way it's easier on the animators to keep
a consistent turnaround. That's why styles, if
you were to look at the pilot episode of Steven
Universe versus the Steven Universe that was
released, the pilot designs are very unique,
very illustrative, have a lot of detail, but
they were simplified. in the series. And a lot
of people are like, oh, I wish they stuck with
the original art. I wish they stuck with the
pilot designs. And that's great. I'm glad you
liked the pilot designs. But gotta keep in mind
that with animation, consistency is key. You
have to have something that's easy to draw, that's
fast to draw. And usually what's easy and fast
to draw are rounder bean shapes. That's why it's
such a popular art style. in media that we see
nowadays. We see a lot of current cartoons have
very soft round bean shapes or very simplified
designs because it's really easy to animate.
That way we can get episodes out faster and all
that kind of stuff. With Vizipop and her style,
it is technically simplified from her usual style.
There's not a lot of... details, but it's still
very much a lot of detail. So that's that there's
a lot of work that goes into that. So there's
a lot of effort. There's a lot of attention to
detail, which makes her style very unique in
that sense, where it's like it's not that she
doesn't care about the animators. Obviously,
she does. But her designs are incredibly. complicated
in the realm of simplicity with character designs.
And a lot of sharp angles. There's a lot of details
in the hair. There's a lot of sections in the
hair. If I recall, their profiles are pretty
sharp. They're not really thinking so much in
the 3D space, so much as thinking flat. I could
be thinking of a different art style. It's been
a while. But there's like... a lot of patterns.
There's a lot of asymmetry, right? You can't
just take one part of the body, flip it around
and call it a day. You have to individually draw
the stripes or the patterns on wings or on clothes
and all that stuff, which could take a lot of
time, which is probably why any big studio name
wouldn't accept has been Hotel and hell of a
boss because it's really complicated. I'm sure
Vizipop, because of her very iconic designs and
her very iconic art style, would not want to
negotiate on that, wouldn't want to lose that
art of her baby. Her baby looks like that and
needs to come out like that. And also she's an
animator herself, so she understands this already.
She understands how complicated it is to animate
her characters. She's done it before. Um, yeah.
So she is aware of the struggles and she's, I
can animate this. I know people who on my team
who can animate this. Therefore, I'm not going
to negotiate down on this art style if they can
also do it. If I know that this can be possible,
I don't want to... lose that creative integrity
if I can help it. That's just me assuming. I
don't know her. I wasn't in the room. This is
just based off of my knowledge of the industry
and from what busy pop has given and indicated
in interviews from her personality. But like,
but that could also be another part. And to get
back on topic a little bit, another part that.
could be the reason why it wasn't picked up by
mainstream is because Vizipop is very adamant
about having her characters be openly and clearly
queer. They have, there's no negotiating with
that. They are gay characters. There is a clear
lesbian relationship between two of the characters
that were established before the canning of the
story. That's already there. There is romantic
tension between two male characters during the
start of the show. There is implied polygamy
with the bees. There is, and even in Hell of
a Boss, there is literally a trans imp that is
like Millie's sister. I can't remember if this
was explicitly said or if it was all implied,
but the way I found out about it was because
of... people's due diligence in the series. And
they were like, oh, male imps have this horn
pattern and female imps have this form pattern,
but she has a different form pattern. Therefore,
she's a trans woman. And I was like, that's really
clever because if because again, I didn't watch
the whole series. So you'll have to correct me
if I'm wrong. But if she didn't explicitly say,
hey, my sister is a trans woman or this she's
trans. That whole entire part of her identity
just being implicit, just for something that
for the audience, for the fans to figure out,
it's really good and really nice because it doesn't
bring the fact that, oh, this character is trans
to the forefront of that character. You wouldn't
know that she was trans until you've figured
out the whole imp horn thing. I really enjoy
that. I think that's a great way to show trans
representation in a visual style that doesn't
compromise the feminine design of that woman.
You know what I mean? Because sometimes when
it comes to trans characters, they try to overcorrect
almost or make a very feminine man or a very
masculine woman. and be like, oh, they're trans.
And I don't like that. I don't like how some
series is tried to imply that they're trans by
going the other way or still giving them feminine
or masculine qualities, depending on which way
they turn. It's also like erasing the fact that
like you can. You can have whatever traits you
want, and it doesn't erase who you are. One of
my characters, like, in one of the podcast stories
that'll come up, he's very openly gay, very feminine,
very, like, ridiculously dramatic and over -the
-top, but that's just how he is. It's not meant
to be, like, this is how all gay men are. It's
literally, there's some people who are just happy
with life, and they're just happy people, and,
like, I had a boss, sis. a cisgender female boss
who was like that. She was just like, I was like,
girl, are you on something? Because can you give
me something? Because she was so happy. I was
like, how is one person this happy all the time?
I don't know. And it scares me. But at the same
time, like any time she was in the room, like
it was just, she lit up the room. She boosted
everybody's energy. It was, and she was our manager.
So it was so much fun to work with her because
she was always just a joy in. a positive person
to be around. But people, I feel like in media
nowadays, because there are some stereotypes
that lead people to think that a character is
one way or the other. That's really not how like
being a human works. Like you can completely
have whatever set of traits that are unique to
you. They can either fit into a box or not. But
at the end of the day, people need to stop pigeonholing
characters into one thing or the other and see
them as characters that are, like people, unique.
And they all have different aspects of their
personality. If they're fully flushed out that
they have background, maybe like they're, what
is it called? How they were raised contributed
to how they act now, like traumas that they went
through. Anything that can... contribute to that
that you may not know in the first season, you
may not know in the first episode, like it might
be something where they're like leaving a trail
of breadcrumbs for the audience to figure out,
or they could just be like, I'm here, I'm queer,
I'm here, I'm gay, hello, I'm fabulous. And there's
nothing wrong about that. People are so quick
to judge and to... put their expectations on
a character's identity and how they should act
in order to find the representation good enough
is weird, because even if we're talking about
Hazbin Hotel with Lucifer, I don't know Cannon.
I'm not really sure what his sexuality is, Cannon,
but obviously he was with Lilith and... But people
are now like, because he's so, like, eccentric
and he's high energy and he's, like... immediately
assume that he has to be bi or he has to be pan
or he has to be this and I'm like But the thing
is like people can't just be who they are without
you having to label them. Yeah, exactly Just
let them be their character and be more than
What they identify as no one is just Only who
they identify as there's more to people. There's
more to characters in good writing they're multifaceted.
It's not just, this is the gay character, this
is the straight character. And I don't, like
for me, I've written straight characters in a
lot of my stories. That doesn't mean that there's
not gonna be LGBTQ plus representation. Like
I think some creators too feel like a pressure
almost to not get... canceled or called out because,
like, their characters at the forefront of the
story are presenting as heteronormative. But
you don't know. You don't know. They could be
curious. You don't know what happened in their
past. You gotta watch it. You gotta know the
story. And it's... Yeah. It's sad to me to see,
like, creators forced into a corner of, wait,
but if you write about a heterosexual couple,
you're not representing LGBT. I'm like... So
are we just not supportive of everybody now?
Is it like... Yeah. So I understand, and that's
why it's hard, right? There should be more representation
in media. There should be more representation
in media of everybody and all minorities and
all abilities and all sexualities. That doesn't
mean that you have to erase... other people's
identities as well. Everybody is allowed to be
who they are. Everybody should feel like they're
allowed to be seen and live their life as long
as they're not hurting anybody and going out
of their way to be a menace to society. Why does
it matter if the main character is queer or not?
It's okay. It's okay for them to not and for
the creator to be backed into a corner like I'm
saying this as a queer woman. It's, I'm not going
to be upset if I watch media about a straight
couple. I don't care. We just want it to be good.
I'm like, I don't care whether your characters
are straight or queer. I care if the writing
is good and if the story is. We just finished
watching The Good Place, Amanda and I. Oh my
God. Oh, that. It's not for this podcast, but
I we were so invested in that show the writing
was so good and The main characters pretty much
all of the like the couples that get together
are like heterosexual couples all of them But
then there's the main character like kind of
hits on the girls occasionally and it's people
are like oh I'm like just let it be what it is.
Just let it yeah We need to stop putting so much
pressure and expectation on works of literature
and works of media because over time it's just
going to become like people are going to be too
afraid to have ideas. Yeah. Because they're not
going to not everyone is going to agree with
you wanted with what you want to do or what you
want to say or people who are in the LGBT plus
community. Obviously we want to see more representation
and the representation that we do have, like
some of the movies that I've watched that I could
list that I'll go into. For example, I've noticed
a lot of lesbian movies, Debs, But I'm a Cheerleader,
Loving Annabelle, Chasing Amy. There's a lot
of interesting ones. And usually from one from
the ones that I've seen or like the L word or
lip service, similar like TV shows. It's always
like One woman has to be dominant and the other
one has to be submissive. And there's no in between.
And the dominant one is usually a brunette and
the submissive one is usually a blonde. And I'm
just like, I did a whole project on this in college.
I'm not even kidding. Cause I got my degree in
gender studies. I know, but it's interesting
that, and I'm like, what psychology goes into
the fact that like, why is the dominant one in
the relationship always, almost always brunette
or older? Yeah. The dominant woman in the relationship
is either older with an age gap that's sketchy
or brunette. And then it's like the younger one
is always the one that's either submissive or
they're very like, I'm chasing you older lady.
And it just, there's not a lot of realistic,
I feel like representation. It's more from what
I've seen, I think a lot. of LGBTQ plus media
is almost fetishized. I agree. I feel like they
either fetishize or they fall onto those stereotypes
for the sake of representation. Oh, look, we
did it, but that's not a realistic relationship.
Yeah, like they give up on writing good characters
or writing a compelling story because they're
so focused on getting their gay quota. or to
fight the queer -baiting allegations. And it's,
no, we just want a good fucking story that has
gay characters. Like, if they're not, yeah. Obviously,
Charlie has to be the dominant one in the relationship
because she wears something that resembles a
tuxedo. Yeah. Er, what? Okay, I'm sorry. That
is just as intense. And, like, the whole dominant,
submissive thing. I feel like that kind of gets
thrown around too. Like even when Amanda and
I go out as a married lesbian couple, they always
give her the check. Even if I want to pay. Like
sometimes the good restaurants will put it right
in the middle. They don't like make an assumption,
but Amanda has very short hair and she dresses
more masculine than I do. I'm very androgynous,
but sometimes I'll wear like... a nice dress
or I'll just wear like whatever I want, whatever
I'm feeling that day. But Amanda is always in
pretty more like I would say athleisure wear
or like jeans and like a t -shirt. She presents
very masculine or if we want to use the word
like butch, she presents that way. And that's
how she's comfortable. That's how she likes to
present. There's nothing wrong with that. But
then people... Even nowadays, even though we've
come so far with representation and not stigmatizing
people until you look more like the man in the
relationship. So I'm going to give you the bill,
which is a whole nother issue. There's a whole
other separate podcast for that. But that always
annoyed me because what if I want to treat my
wife to dinner, but they're going to assume that
she's taking the check because she has short
hair? Yeah. What? Women can take men out to dinner,
too, and pay. It's not weird. It's 2025. There's
so many, like, societal weird rules that society
puts on people. Okay, we'll accept you, but you
need to reach this criteria, though. Yeah. And
it's stupid. There's so much more to people that
can ever be labeled or described. You just you
can't do that because people are all gonna be
unique. We're not made from the same atoms or
molecules We're all completely different. So
why are we? trying to Categorize people because
it's easier for society to know and to guess
who you are. Like why does it matter? Why do
you need to know? They're just a person Yeah,
like it shouldn't have to matter and there shouldn't
be pressure on which way a story should go or
how what? the characters should do or look like
or who they should love or how they should act.
Just make a good story. That's what matters.
If you're upset about the couple being straight
presenting, I don't know what to tell you. It's
a weird thing to be angry about. We have too
many straight presenting couples in media. That's
totally fair. We need to have more diversity
in media and in literature. At the same time
though, when we have that, I feel like it's a
catch -22 because then when we have that, it's
almost like we said, it's fetishized almost and
it's not really representing real queer relationships.
Even if it is, people will see it as not good
enough, not meeting my expectations. No one's
ever going to be happy. I was going to add on
to that because there are because - gender is
a spectrum, because sexuality is a spectrum.
There's a lot of nuance, right? And a lot of
people hate it when creators make characters
that fall into that nuance because they're like,
oh, that's not good representation. No, there
are characters who are like that. Yamato from
One Piece. I don't know if you've seen him, but
he looks like a woman. He is drawn in the same
stylization as the other woman in One Piece,
as a very hourglass figure. He goes by he, him
pronouns. He is known as the son of Kaito. He
is a son. He is a man. He identifies as a man.
Everyone calls him a man, but he looks like a
woman. He does not pass. That frustrates a lot
of people. A lot of people are misunderstanding
his character. because he doesn't look like a
man. He's not passing. He's not masculine enough.
He is comfortable in his skin presenting as a
woman. He doesn't feel gender dysphoria. He is
happy how he looks, but he is just a man. And
there is nuance in that. There are trans men
who do feel comfortable presenting like a woman.
That does not make it bad representation. That
does not make it inaccurate representation. And
it actually really fucking grinds my gears because
it's, oh, look, a trans man. And we all hate
him because he's not who he... Up to our standards.
Yes. Or what we want him to be. Yeah, it's...
Yeah. And that's, it really frustrates me as
a trans man because it's so, those, so trans
men who... who look feminine, who pass as feminine.
So they're not men anymore. That's the line you're
drawing, is that they're not men anymore. So
I wasn't a man before I started T, before I started
looking like one. It just really bothered me.
What does a man look like? What does a woman,
what does a non -binary person look like? What's
the definition? Cite your resources. I don't,
people are not supposed to be defined like that.
Like, people are just supposed to exist. I feel
like truly spiritually, like, it's gotten so
off track with development of people being just
who they are. Like, at the end of the day, when
we all pass away, we're gonna be like, we're
gonna be dead. It's not gonna fucking matter
what clothes you wear or how your hair is laying.
It's not gonna matter. You're gonna be dead and
you're gonna be like a little ball of light floating
around in the universe. And from what I truly
believe, it's when we pass, it's just love. It's
love and light and good energy. And that's, so
that's what it really should be in the world.
There's so much judgment because humans have
this need to be right. Humans have this need
to always like understand. And if I don't understand
it, it's not right, which is very selfish and
narrow -minded. for you to look at it like that.
It's similar to in the beginning of my relationship
with Amanda when she was still very, she still
had a lot of old mindsets, I would say, like
very conservative. I don't know how to explain
it, but for an example, like she would say, oh,
because you're with a woman, like you wouldn't
have the desire to be with a man. And I was like,
no, I see Jason Momoa and my ovaries explode.
I'm sorry, I... Damn. Like, but that doesn't
mean that I'm gonna act on those. If I'm in a
relationship, like, I'm in a relationship with
you. That doesn't mean I'm not gonna see Jason
Momoa pop up on my screen and start barking and
howling. Like, I will. And it's not because I
wanna be with a man. It's because as a pansexual
queer woman, I'm like, everyone is hot. Help
me. And that's the struggle is I can find anyone
attractive, regardless of their gender. That
doesn't mean that I want to be with that person.
That doesn't mean I'm going to divorce my wife
and try to go marry Jason Momoa. No, it just
means that people are able to be attracted to
whoever they're attracted to. It's an attraction.
It's not an action. Yeah. And it's people, I
think, are trying to be too controlling of the
narrative of how other people identify and live
their lives. And because of that, it translates
into media. It translates into, now, I can't
control you, so I'm gonna control your characters'
narratives, and I'm either going to agree with
you or disagree with you. And if I disagree with
you, you're a bad writer, or you're a bad person.
Or you're not doing X, Y, Z right. Yeah. It comes
to the point where it's just, yes, there should
be more representation in media, and there should
be... flexibility for characters to just exist
as their authentic selves, just like people exist
as their authentic selves. There shouldn't be
any hate or expectations around it, just accept
that people are going to be different and unique
to who they are. It doesn't make anything bad
because the characters are straight or because
the characters are queer and then it's, oh, the
gay agenda now, everything is whatever. And I'm
like, that's stupid too. That's also dumb. you're
like, people want to have their cake and eat
it too. And they also don't want to see anything
that doesn't align with their views, which if
everybody agreed on everything, there wouldn't
ever be any discourse or communication. There
wouldn't be that challenge of challenging the
mindset of what people think. And when they see
new media or read new literature, like, challenging
them to think differently, challenging them to
see beyond their own self. Yeah. That's really
the problem. Because when you're judging other
people, you're really being more judgmental of
yourself. And it may not seem that way, but if
you look internally, there's something within
you that you're not happy about. There's something
within you that is missing or that is hurting
that you feel the need to put this negativity
on other people. And to tear them down for just
making a story that they're passionate about.
Because it doesn't fit what you want. It's not
your story, number one. Like, you don't have
to enjoy it. You don't have to watch it or engage
or consume it. It's not your story. Yeah. They
should be allowed to do whatever the hell they
want with their story. Yes. Unless somebody is
writing a story that is to hurt others, like
I always say, with harm to none. Unless you're
going out of your way to be hateful and harmful,
then that's a whole nother topic. If it's just
a story, just let them tell their story. What
is the problem? I don't get it. Yeah. I feel
like what happens with a lot of beginner writers
or beginner creators is because they don't have
a lot of experience with LGBTQ People that's
because you are one does not mean that you know
the entire expansion. I'm a trans man That doesn't
mean I understand all of the nuances that being
a lesbian or just a gay woman or a bi woman is
That's an entirely different part of the community
Yeah, you only know your existence Exactly. So,
you know your own stereotypes, but that doesn't
mean that you don't know that thing. Sorry But
that means that you don't know the stereotypes
of others as well as you think you do. So I feel
like that's something that a lot of people need
to understand is if you're not part of that sexuality,
there's gonna be stereotypes that you might accidentally
be catering to that are toxic. Like what you
said with the brunette and the blonde lesbian
couple. I personally did not realize... that
stereotype I did not until you've said it I was
like oh my god no yeah that happens a lot yeah
so that's like something to keep in mind or just
oh my god yeah that's probably a stereotype I
should be aware of that doesn't mean you have
to avoid it it doesn't mean that doesn't happen
like it happens yeah because it happens that's
why they're stereotypes is because they happen
but but the point is to develop beyond that stereotype
right yeah okay so you have a brunette and a
blonde and one's dominant, one's submissive,
maybe give the dominant some softer points of
their character, right? Maybe they talk to their
plants, they're a plant mom, maybe the blonde
boxes, right? You can add stuff to their characters
that make them more than those stereotypes of
dominant versus submissive. I think that's something
that a lot of people need to understand is these
queer characters are characters first, right?
And they are gonna need habits, they're gonna
need motivation, they're gonna need likes and
dislikes, and you can choose those. They are
not preset. You can choose those to give them
the depth and the juxtaposition to their identity,
to give them that more fleshed out, rounded appearance.
Because I feel like a lot of... bad representation
of LGBT fall victim to just bad writing. Whereas
it's not good. It's just not good. Like in Faultran,
one of the characters, Shiro, is revealed to
have left behind a husband, but we don't realize
that he's gay or has a husband until literally
we come back to Earth and he's, oh my God, my
husband. And it's what? This entire time, like
he didn't have any hints. He didn't look at any
men. There was no back in the background. He's,
oh, that's a very attractive guy. Like there
was no hints. It was just like gay. And it's
okay. That's bad writing. Okay. You just made
him gay because you wanted to fill out your gay
bingo card. You wanted to click off your free
gay coupon. That's bad writing. That's not good
because it's not part of the character that you've
known since the beginning. You can put in hints
and then reveal later, hey, I have a husband.
because it's, oh, in season three, he was standing
next to a rainbow or he was being flirted with
by a gay alien or like a masculine alien. There
is ways you can hint at the fact that this character
is gay and then do a reveal later. Or even if
they're bi, who's to say even if the main character
is a man into another man that they can't also
like women? or like other genders. Is that a
race, the fact that they're attracted to men?
No. Means they're attracted to whoever the hell
they want to be attracted to. That's just how
it is. Like, they can be multi -faceted like
people. Just because the main characters are
heterosexual presenting doesn't mean that one
of them hasn't dated at the other sex before
or the same sex before. Like, it's really not
that black and white. Like you can't just make
those assumptions. It's something like characters
have to be explored and have to be learned and
they have to be Like I don't know if the right
word would be but they need to be explored as
more than What want or need them to be to fit
your narrative? That's not what they're there
for they're there to tell a story like People
aren't here to fit your narrative. People are
here to do what they are meant to do when they
are born. Like, they're not here to do whatever
it is to appease you. And that's why all of this,
like, discrimination and bullshit happening in
the world is terrible. Like, we try so hard to
control the narrative and to control other people.
Have we not learned at this point? That doesn't
work. It just makes things awful. for everybody.
And so why are we putting that on even the smallest
of things, which is like media, which a lot of
times is fiction, like fake characters who don't
really exist, who aren't real, who are like an
alien or something like, and getting so upset
that they're not identifying the way that you
want them to. That's delulu. Yeah. Like just
let people tell their stories and If there's
something truly wrong with the story, you can
leave constructive criticism, but that constructive
criticism should be constructive. It shouldn't
just be like, I don't like this character because
X, Y, Z, and because they said they're gay, but
their boyfriend looks like this. It's just the
simple things that I can't even fathom sometimes
when I'm thinking about them that people come
up with. It just seems like it's just silly and
people want to find something to be upset about
or complain about instead of just enjoying the
media and the story for what it is. And if you
don't like the story, that's different. If you
have a friend who's a writer and they come to
you like, hey, give me your thoughts. That's
awesome. Give them your thoughts. Tell them what
you think about it. That doesn't mean that they
have to take what you say. and put it into their
story. That's their story. Yeah. But if they're
asking for your feedback, like, you can always
tell them, hey, this might cater to this stereotype,
or this might not be the best way to reveal a
character as a husband. Like, it... Yeah. There's
so many different ways that you can go about
things without just straight up attacking it
and saying that it's a bad representation. Yeah.
So... I agree. And this is going to probably
rock the boat a little bit. Oh, no. But. Yeah,
it's time for me to be up on my soapbox for my
hot take. I feel like a lot of people focus so
much on romantic ships and romantic stuff that
they just completely bypass platonic Anything
and it bothers me a lot. I feel like we use there
are a lot of Animes I'll say that have very strong
rivalries between two male characters, right?
Yes that's just how rivalry works is you compete
and a lot of people will take those rivalries
and They will amp it up to be romantic. That
doesn't mean I'm not saying that they can't be
I'm not saying that they aren't sparked. What
I mean is sometimes the curtains are just blue,
guys. Sometimes they're just really best friends.
Sometimes there's a deeper meaning. Like, look,
read between the lines. Maybe it is romantic,
but is there something else contributing to it?
It's not solely just, but me want to bang this
person. Yeah. And I feel like it also just...
really dumbs down how important friendships are.
I don't know if you've ever had a good friend,
but sometimes you just want to you would die
for them. You would do anything like, OK. Oh,
my God. Not to get all Naruto and Sasuke about
it, but fuck, I'd chase you down for three fucking
years to bring you home if I had to. Oh, shit.
But like sometimes. you care about people so
much. Yeah. And it can be romantic, but it can
also be platonic. It can also just be because
they're your family, because you love them so
much. And I feel like that is a nuance that gets
lost a lot is as someone who is asexual. I have
a lot of struggle figuring out platonic versus
romantic feelings sometimes. because I could
feel so strongly for someone. I care about them
so much that my brain is like, is this technically
romantic enough? I've had many crushes on people
where it would be like - I am confessing to me
right now. No, no. We are both married. Don't
be weird. I don't know if that was a bit or not.
It's just dead air. You really did. I am in utter
shock. I'm like, oh my God. You know what, Rae?
Not everything is about you. Yeah, you're right.
I'm going to go do some self -reflection. Be
right back. Yeah, you go sit and do self -reflection.
I'm going to continue standing on my soapbox.
That's right. Do that. Yeah. You go reflect.
Okay. All right. But yeah, I have struggles with
platonic versus romantic relations. Yeah. Feelings
and stuff. And that has always been a struggle
with me. I have fallen, quote unquote, in and
out of love with friends before being like, oh,
my God, I care about them so much. I clearly
have a crush on them. And then either I confess
or I don't or like nothing happens. And then
the feelings go away or they go back to normal.
And it's just, oh, no, it was just platonic.
It was just very strong platonic. And I feel
like there's an entire subsection. in queer relationships,
where it's just queer platonic relationships.
Like love is just love, man. Love is just love.
You can just love people. And only you can define
what that love is and only you can define whether
or not that's romantic or platonic. But I feel
like there's not enough emphasis on platonic
love and how important it is and how big it is.
because people will take those moments out of
context and be like, oh, see, clearly they love
each other because they hugged for three point
five seconds. Or they're like flirting with each
other. And that obviously means that they like
each other. I'm like, do you know how many times
my friend of I'm not going to drop names, but
I have a very longtime friend who we're like,
what's up? It's just how we talk to each other.
And it's always been that way. Does that mean
that we actually have feelings for each other?
No. Does that mean that I would die for this
person because they're like my rock and like
a platonic soulmate? Yes. That doesn't mean that
I'm going to go to bed with them. It's things
that are so simple as you could be close to somebody
and your relationship can be different for each
friendship or each relationship. They can be
completely different just because somebody doesn't
like it or doesn't understand it doesn't make
it. less authentic for you, but it also doesn't
mean that you get to assume what those people's
intentions are. Their friendship is their own.
So you need to let them have that. You can ask
questions, but like, you can't just come to conclusions
about people based on your own bias. That's ridiculous.
Yeah. And it's like a lot of people, like with
straight couples, it's like, why can't a man
and a woman just be friends? OK, can we have
that same energy for gay people, please? Same
sex friends? Yeah. Or same gender friends? Like
you can't sometimes. Yes, sometimes it is romantic.
Sometimes we get a kiss on screen. We are now
in the modern times, people. We can get gay kisses
on stream, not stream, on screen. That too, but
yeah. now that we're allowed to be gay on screen
and get our kisses on screen can we go back to
being like sometimes boys are just friends sometimes
girls are just friends because we are able to
get those kisses on screen yeah yes some of them
are a little like harder to get like with what
was it called The Owl House, that series was
cut short by Disney despite having a huge fan
audience. Yeah. Because the writers were like,
we're not going to cut out the gay. We're not
going to make the lesbian couple not be gay.
And so they smushed it all in one season and
it was like a great season. It was great. So
yeah, there is going to be some censorship, but
it's also in the power of the creators to stand
their ground and be like, okay, we'll rush it,
but they're still going to fucking kiss in the
end. Right. Fuck you. Yeah, it reminds me of
Legend of Korra, like at the end of that, because
I was like, they like faded away. I was like,
I was so upset because I was like, listen, like
you've been hinting at this. Is this like a friendship?
And that's again. I can understand how people
get so invested and then they're like, you gotta
give me answers. No, they don't. You can draw
your own conclusion, but at the same time, like
there's two sides and both sides are valid, right?
So they can be like, oh, I'm upset that you were
leading up to this and giving me the assumption
that they were gonna kiss or giving me the assumption
that they were gonna be together and then you
didn't clarify. But then again, it's almost like
on the opposite end of that, argument, maybe
they didn't show it because that's for their
life to know, you know what I mean? For those
characters to end the series the way that they're
going to end it. And it's not always satisfying
to people who feel like they got teased, but
it's, in a way, think about it as a real life
situation. You're not going to know specifically.
everything about that person's relationship,
or what they're gonna do, or how they're feeling.
And it's nobody's business. So in a way, they
ended it like, make your own assumption, but
it's none of your business. Like, whatever happens
between these two. You can draw your own conclusion,
but this is just how it ended. Maybe they don't
know. Maybe they're holding hands because they're
besties. We don't know. Maybe it's platonic.
And maybe it's romantic. We don't know that.
But... What gives us the right to demand that
explanation? Just let them exist and be in their
own authentic fiction realities. And personally,
in my opinion, I'm still on my soapbox with my
bad opinions. Who said there were bad opinions?
Ah, no, there are hot opinions. Okay. I don't
know if this is a hot opinion, but I would rather
have a gay ship be in the series non -canon.
than have a canon ending, just because that way
it's up to the fans who make them gay or not.
It's up to you. If you want to make the two boys
kiss as adults, go for it. If you want to make
the two girls kiss, go ahead. Fan fiction, bro.
Like fan fiction, fan art. Yeah. Works fan fan
projects. You can make fucking Sasuke and Naruto
kiss if you want. Guys, no one's stopping you.
I don't care if they have wives. They can kiss
on the DL. That's what fan fiction is for. That's
what fan works are for, is for people to just
have fun and do whatever they want. This is not
me saying that, oh, I don't want any gay rep
at all. I want good gay rep. I want intentional
gay rep. I want a rep that is intentional. that
means something that is important to the character.
I want it to be both implicit, but explicit at
the same time. It doesn't have to be in my face,
but I want it to be obvious enough. That's what
subtext is for. Use it. Guys, use it. I do not
need to have every introduction of every queer
person in every queer character to be like, hi,
I'm Melissa. I'm a lesbian. Show me. Don't tell
me. Show me through her countless list of exes
that all have feminine names. Show me through
a little pride flag pin on her poster board in
the background. It does not have to be explicit.
You can imply it. It's not that hard, guys. It's
really not that hard to make it good. Just make
it good. That's all I want. All I want is good.
I don't care what form it takes. I just want
it to be good. Yeah. And that's what's important,
right? And I think everybody can also draw their
own conclusions on to them what's good and what's
not. And that can be subjective. I think in a
lot of our podcasts the underlying common denominator
of everything is just try to approach things
with kindness and understanding instead of I
need to find a reason to be angry at this and
I need to find a reason to spread negativity
and hate because that just doesn't help anybody
and If you can try to live life a little lighter
if you can try to find the joy and the positivity
and things Not saying like toxic positivity.
You don't need to be like everything is great
all the time because that's not realistic but
trying to have the balance of dissecting things
and like really focusing on how it's making you
feel why it's making you feel that way and if
this is something that you truly like if this
is a hill you really want to die on is it worth
it or Is this just something that because of
something that you've gone through or something
internally with you that's bothering you? Like,
it's so much deeper than any of us think. And
the black and white version of, yes, we need
more representation and diversity in all media,
in musicals, in plays, in all performances, in
art, in literature. There's always room for more
diversity. It's never gonna be at like a cap.
There's always room for more. The more that we
stigmatize it and put all of these expectations
on it, the harder it's gonna be to give all of
that representation. The harder it's gonna be
for people to feel like they can authentically
just put those out and have them be received
in a positive light. It doesn't mean that you
can't criticize them if there's things to criticize
or you're allowed to have your opinions and you're
valid in your opinions, but you need to also
like try to figure out if this is something that
you're coming at from, I'm just doing this because
I want something to be angry and mean towards,
or am I actually trying to help this creator
have a different perspective? Or provide some
kind of insight that might help. There's been
a lot of times in my writing where my friends
have like peer edited or looked at my work and
have told me things where I'm like, oh, I didn't
think about it that way. Or, oh, that's a good
idea. Or even me going, no, that's not what I
want. It's any of those things where the communication
and the conversation that happens around these
things, it doesn't need to be taken so like,
it's like a, it's either a fight or it's not.
It just needs to be a conversation. It doesn't
need to be so serious. Just have a conversation
and have open communication. Try not to use hurtful
language. Try not to tear projects down because
they do something that you don't agree with because
it might be somebody else's like safety. There
might be a piece of literature or media that
you hate. And that is like somebody's safety.
And by you tearing that down needlessly, you're
indirectly harming the people that it really
helps and that really care about it. And then
it's taking away that enjoyment for people who
enjoy it. Like the same thing with fandoms. People
get so angry at people for being in specific
fandoms that it's like, we can't just as a human
race, as a society, just let people live and
let people enjoy things. And with harm to none,
not doing anything to hurt people and going out
of their way to do bad things, letting people
have their own interests and have their own ideas
of what makes them happy and that not be something
that you have to correct because it doesn't suit
your narrative. Yeah. That's taking enjoyment
away from other people's and there's already
so much negativity in the world that we don't
need that. trying to come at it from an air of
understanding, even saying, I don't agree with
you. If you enjoy it, awesome. I'm happy for
you. It's that simple of saying, I hate this
actor because X, Y, Z. I don't like their work.
I think that they're not funny. Doesn't mean
that somebody else doesn't really like that actor
or that actor isn't a person who has a family.
Yeah. It's very, there's a lot of different layers
that go into it. Most of our podcasts surrounds
that of the topics that we discussed. There's
so many layers to it that you can't just say
yes or no to one side or the other because that's
not how life is. It's a communication and a conversation
of this is why it's confusing to be a human.
And this is why it's interesting to have conversations
about these things because you want to be validating
of how people feel and how they think. At the
same time, you want to correct issues that could
be damaging to society. And then on the other
side of that, who decides what's damaging and
who decides what's not. So it's a constant endless
loop of just people having the conversations
that need to be had and having them with an air
of understanding and respect and not coming at
it from... You don't agree with me on this, so
you're canceled, you're horrible, blah, blah,
blah. We need to get to a place as a society
where we can just have conversations with each
other and disagree if we need to, but that doesn't
turn into hate. The disagreements don't need
to turn into hate. That's not necessary. You
can disagree with people, like when you were
kids, somebody... Wanted to play blocks with
you and you said no, I'm never gonna play with
you again. You didn't want to play blocks with
me I hate you and I'm gonna go tell all the other
kids in daycare that you're mean It's like that
kind of mindset where it we're adults now we
can have conversations that disagree with each
other without it turning into something dramatic,
so It's I think that's important to have conversations
like these that are difficult and it feels like
sometimes we're talking about something and then
going back on it and then going forward and then
going back and it's interesting when you think
about it because it's There's no clear answer
to any problem There's only what we can do to
continue moving forward and trying our best to
improve the quality of life that we have in the
quality of life of the people around us with
love and light and not damaging words and painful
actions. Like, it doesn't need to get to that
point, but because we're inherently flawed as
people, I don't think, like, having that mindset
is gonna come naturally to everyone in the world,
if even a select few people. It really takes
a lot of life experience and soul searching and,
I would argue, therapy to... challenge the way
that you see things and give you new perspectives.
Sit down with people who are different than you.
Sit down with people who have had different upbringings,
who are different culturally, who are different
in any kind of way. Have like open conversations
with them about it. And instead of saying, oh,
I don't agree with that. Now we can't have the
conversation anymore. ask more questions, ask
why, try to understand, and then the same thing
for them towards you. Having that communication
is really important in how we can learn about
each other and come together more instead of
it always turning into an us versus them. I'm
off my soapbox now. I just booted you off and
I was like, okay, hold on. Okay, my turn. No,
it's okay. I stepped down a while ago. You got
it. Thanks, yeah. It's something too, because
I, for the longest time, I didn't do live streams
or anything like that because I always was so
subconscious that anything I said was going to
be taken and taken out of context and twisted
to make me look a certain way or it's you turn
people against me and... It took a little while
for me to really sit with it and then talk to
my therapist about it, but it's crazy because
you can't please everybody. You cannot. You just
have to tell yourself that people are going to
be how they're going to be. As long as you are
doing your best every single day and putting
your best foot forward, trying to do good things
and not going out of your way to be harmful.
Then if people are going to be negative, then
that's something that they need to work on within
themselves. They need to reflect on, they need
to have more life experience that offers a different
crossroads to them to say, you can continue down
this path or you can change your thinking and
maybe improve and go down this other way, this
other path. I would always say challenging my
own thoughts. has been really helpful because
now I can do these podcasts. And I do still have
that little voice in the back of my head all
the time. Like, I don't think it's ever gonna
really leave because of my anxiety. But there's
always that little voice inside my head that's,
you're gonna say something wrong. Somebody's
taking it out of context and you're gonna go...
And it's just that nagging voice of, don't say
something wrong. Don't say something not woke.
And I'm like... Don't be controversial. Don't
be controversial. And... So I like, I try to
feel like, but then I feel like I won't ever
speak my mind or say anything if I'm constantly
in my own head and thinking that I'm not allowed
to say anything. If people want to take it any
way they want to take it, okay. I, at the end
of the day, know who I am. I know my heart. I
know what's in my soul. And I know how I intend
things and how I put myself out there every day.
That's a very important message that I would
have for everybody listening is that at the end
of the day, you're alone with yourself. Like
you have people around you who love you, but
you're the only one that lives within yourself
that knows yourself and knows who you are. If
you need work, because we all do and no one's
ever going to be perfect or needing not to learn
new lessons. No one's ever going to be too old
to learn. It's all about perspective and about
thinking. challenging yourself? Do I really need
to say this? Is this imperative that I make this
argument? Do I really need to ruin my relationship
over this? Do I need to start a fight over this?
Is it worth the energy? Because most of the time
it's not. Yeah. So why put so much stress on
yourself and the other person where you could
just have a conversation even if you don't agree?
It's more enlightening anyway if you don't agree
with somebody, because then you learn to bounce
ideas off of each other. Yeah. So I think for
me, my biggest anxiety for talking, especially
for long periods, is always that I'm afraid of
what other people are going to think of me. I'm
afraid of how people are going to paint me or
narratives that people are going to use about
me. I still have those fears and it's still very
much a thing that I think about but it's gotten
better in the past year because it's definitely
come with me saying I can't control what other
people do say or think and I know that at the
end of the day I have a very strong support system
and I myself and you guys listening lean on those
people that really do know you. and will stand
by you. And the people who, if you are doing
something that's problematic, will call you out
on it. Real friends will tell you like, hey,
that's a little, I don't like that. We should
work on that. And it doesn't have to be, I don't
like that. Fuck you. I hate you forever. Goodbye.
It can be, hey, I've noticed this. Maybe this
is something that we can explore if you feel
like, if you agree that this is something that
you should work on. And having that mutual conversation
of it not always being just them telling you
like, hey, change your shit. You can tell them
that too, and they're receptive to that. Having
those open dialogues are very important. And
looping it back around to representation in media,
I think it starts with representing ourselves
and our own relationships, and our own interpersonal
relationships. Because what we do in our lives
is what we project and put out into the world.
So if you really think about it, that's a lot
of the reason you might get upset over things
is because there's something that is unhealed
or unresolved within yourself that you could
take another look at and discuss or bounce ideas
off of each other, go to therapy. And at the
end of the day, it's just an ongoing conversation
that we need to have as people. that doesn't
always need to turn into something hateful or
mean or negative or spun in a different narrative.
We just need to come to terms that we're all
going to be flawed forever. And the only thing
we can do is just try to be better every day,
a little bit better today than you were yesterday.
That's all you can do. So if you don't like representation
in the media and like how it's going, Leave constructive
feedback. Don't tear things down, but leave constructive
feedback. Hey, have you thought of this? Hey,
maybe look at it from this perspective. Offering
it. Figure out why as well. Why does this not
resonate with you? It's not always just going
to be like, I just don't like it. It's like,
but why? The writing, is it the pacing? Is it
because they rely on stereotypes? Is it because
this is? negative in some way, or is it just
not the way that you see these types of people?
Sometimes it could be just your lens that could
be skewed. It's always important to figure out
the why. Sorry to interrupt, but. No, it's fine.
That's very important as a witchy person myself.
One of the biggest things I had a runes reading
the other day, and it was very profound when
he told me was, always think about the why. And
I think I might have mentioned this in a past
podcast, but my memory is absolutely terrible.
So you might hear me repeat things. Sorry. But
long story short, he told me a lot of things
that we can really think about spiritually is,
say, for example, someone's bullying you. It's
not a good thing. There's no excuse for the behavior.
Why are they doing it? Maybe we can dissect this
a little bit. Why are they bullying you? Oh,
because you wore, it could be something as simple
as you said that you didn't like cats and they
got upset with you because they were never allowed
to have a cat growing up. So now they resent
people who have cats or have had cats and don't
like them or don't want to get them because it's
their narrative that they never got to have one
and they really want one. So how come you don't?
Like, how come you don't agree with me? There's
always a why that comes internally that can be
connected back. So it's like a chain reaction.
And it takes a lot of time to think about things
like this, but maybe, I think, what did he say?
I think he had said he used to never wear short
sleeves because people said that he didn't look
good in them. So then he started wearing sweaters.
But those didn't make him comfortable. And then
people started making fun of him because he wore
sweaters and he wasn't showing off like his arms.
So then he was thinking maybe, why is this person
telling me this? Maybe they got bullied because
of what they wore. So now they have a trauma
and they're projecting that onto him. Why did
they have a trauma? Somebody else from their
family may have had a trauma and projected it
onto them. It can go back so far, even if you
don't know. you can always kind of assume that
it comes from somewhere. And being able to take
what somebody says with a grain of salt and just
being like, okay, that's fine. I'm going to do
what I'm going to do. As long as I'm not hurting
anybody, I'm going to do what I'm going to do.
They're allowed to say whatever they want. And
if they can, if they want to be negative, okay,
that doesn't need to affect you or ruin your
day or ruin what you think about yourself. So
don't let people harm your self -image because
they have an unhealed version of themselves that
they're unwilling to work on. It all comes down
to understanding that people do that because
they haven't worked on certain things within
themselves. You can only do what you can do and
what you can control is you. Give them grace.
You don't have to take it as fact. People have
commented on my singing like, ah, this is ass.
And I'm like, all right, cool. Thanks for your
opinion. I know my singing is not ass. And I
could go into a bunch of whys about why it's
not ass. But that's the thing. I don't need to
explain myself. No, it totally made sense. Sorry.
I'm distracted. OK, just the silence. Sorry.
Wow. Leaving me alone on my soapbox alone. It's
windy up here. Listen, I saw a falling leaf and
it was very interesting how we did a little slip
at the end. I'm sorry. Literally, Gabe was like
squirrel. It was a very interesting leaf. You
should have seen it. What are your closing thoughts,
Gabe? Okay. Closing thoughts, I guess just. Be
aware that your representation in no matter form
what it takes good or bad is representation and
sometimes we can't be picky on that. But at the
same time, because it's a nuanced situation,
right? You're allowed to be critical of media.
You're allowed to voice your opinions about it.
You can decide whether or not it's technically
good representation or bad representation. for
you but for you thank you for that because yeah
it is definitely whether or not it is for you
yeah but that still does not negate the fact
that it exists and it's always grateful that
it exists even if it's the smallest tiniest idiot
biggest character that is only there for 0 .2
seconds we can be like hey look another one we
can add it to our collection it's great but another
Closing thought is just be aware as a creator,
if you are a creator who is either, if you're
a part of the queer community or not, just be
aware of stereotypes, be aware of the voices
of queer people that you know or queer people
online and who talk about their experiences being
queer. And don't be afraid to... Stay away from
those stereotypes or circumvent those stereotypes
or even use those stereotypes, but make sure
you have fleshed out characters to go with it.
Just treat them as characters first, not just
a little checkbox or representation. It's not
super helpful to have a queer character who is
just a stereotype. That's bad character. What
is the word? It's just a bad character. It's
a bad character. Yeah. Bad character development.
Yeah. Bad character development. Bad character
overall. And if you want to make a good story,
you need good characters. Can't really have that.
I'm flubbing. I'm flubbing. Oh my God. Are you
okay? Somebody get him some water. He needs some
milk. Take the box. Take the box. Take the box.
Take the box. I think we're both going on brain
-dead, so we'll go ahead and end the podcast
there. So thank you guys for watching. If you
can, please support me on Patreon at Song of
Rain. And like I dropped a hint, there will be
a story podcast coming out, hopefully at the
end of the year, if not earlier. But we'll see
how long it takes to get the episodes finished.
So be on the lookout for that and... We will
talk to you again soon, so drink water, be kind
to yourself and others, and take care. All right,
bye. Bye.