1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:05,720 Welcome to The Brain Architects, a new podcast from the Center on the Developing Child at 2 00:00:05,720 --> 00:00:06,720 Harvard University. 3 00:00:06,720 --> 00:00:09,520 I'm your host, Sally Fitzer. 4 00:00:09,520 --> 00:00:13,960 Our center believes that advances in science can provide a powerful source of new ideas 5 00:00:13,960 --> 00:00:16,420 that can improve outcomes for children and families. 6 00:00:16,420 --> 00:00:20,520 We want to help you apply the science of early childhood development to your everyday interactions 7 00:00:20,520 --> 00:00:24,880 with children and take what you're hearing from our experts and panels and apply it to 8 00:00:24,880 --> 00:00:26,440 your everyday work. 9 00:00:26,440 --> 00:00:30,400 In today's episode, we're going to dive into the science behind serve and return interactions 10 00:00:30,400 --> 00:00:33,600 and we'll learn how important responsive relationships are to healthy development. 11 00:00:33,600 --> 00:00:37,800 Later in the podcast, we'll incorporate these positive interactions into ordinary moments 12 00:00:37,800 --> 00:00:40,560 throughout your day. 13 00:00:40,560 --> 00:00:45,320 Here to discuss serve and return is Dr. Jack Shonkoff, who is the professor of child health 14 00:00:45,320 --> 00:00:49,400 and development and the director of the Center on the Developing Child at Harvard University. 15 00:00:49,400 --> 00:00:51,840 Hey, Jack, we're so glad to have you back. 16 00:00:51,840 --> 00:00:52,840 Great to be here. 17 00:00:52,840 --> 00:00:55,920 Today, we're going to dig into this concept of serve and return. 18 00:00:55,920 --> 00:00:59,600 So I'm wondering if you could start just telling us a little bit about what serve and return 19 00:00:59,600 --> 00:01:00,600 is. 20 00:01:00,600 --> 00:01:05,920 Serve and return is a very simple phrase that tells us about how important the back and 21 00:01:05,920 --> 00:01:11,660 forth interaction is between very young children actually beginning immediately after birth 22 00:01:11,660 --> 00:01:13,840 and the adults who care for them. 23 00:01:13,840 --> 00:01:19,840 Serve and return, as we're using it now, refers to how parents or other adults who care for 24 00:01:19,840 --> 00:01:22,840 children, young children, exchange vocalizations. 25 00:01:22,840 --> 00:01:24,800 They make sounds. 26 00:01:24,800 --> 00:01:25,800 They look at each other. 27 00:01:25,800 --> 00:01:30,840 It's this back and forth interaction that occurs naturally between babies, very young 28 00:01:30,840 --> 00:01:32,840 children and the adults who care for them. 29 00:01:32,840 --> 00:01:37,280 These are things that parents and other caregivers do pretty naturally, even if you haven't had 30 00:01:37,280 --> 00:01:38,740 a course in child development. 31 00:01:38,740 --> 00:01:44,080 We are biologically wired to be engaged in that kind of serve and return interaction 32 00:01:44,080 --> 00:01:46,420 because it is necessary for healthy development. 33 00:01:46,420 --> 00:01:51,440 If we didn't do it, if it required a course in child development millions of years ago, 34 00:01:51,440 --> 00:01:55,200 we would have become extinct as a species because babies' brains and young children's 35 00:01:55,200 --> 00:01:57,080 brains wouldn't have developed in the way they do. 36 00:01:57,080 --> 00:02:01,360 It's the essence of what promotes healthy brain development very early. 37 00:02:01,360 --> 00:02:04,600 Why is that important for healthy development of a child? 38 00:02:04,600 --> 00:02:05,960 It's not simply important. 39 00:02:05,960 --> 00:02:11,960 It's critical because the brain is wired to expect this kind of back and forth serve and 40 00:02:11,960 --> 00:02:13,080 return interaction. 41 00:02:13,080 --> 00:02:18,200 It's really the way the brain builds its circuits, the way the brain develops the capacity for 42 00:02:18,200 --> 00:02:19,200 different skills. 43 00:02:19,200 --> 00:02:21,040 Here's a really good example. 44 00:02:21,040 --> 00:02:27,680 How do birds learn song, very similar to how do humans learn their language, which is speaking? 45 00:02:27,680 --> 00:02:30,000 A really elegant experiment was done once. 46 00:02:30,000 --> 00:02:35,000 Newly hatched baby songbirds, who at that point didn't know their songs, they removed them 47 00:02:35,000 --> 00:02:42,040 from the adult songbirds and raised them in cages with very high fidelity recordings of 48 00:02:42,040 --> 00:02:44,100 the song for that songbird. 49 00:02:44,100 --> 00:02:46,440 You can guess what the punchline is here. 50 00:02:46,440 --> 00:02:51,760 Those birds never learned to sing, ever, even though they heard the song beautifully, there 51 00:02:51,760 --> 00:02:56,000 was no opportunity to practice it and interact and get feedback from the adults. 52 00:02:56,000 --> 00:02:57,000 It's so fascinating. 53 00:02:57,000 --> 00:03:03,000 I'm imagining as a listener, my first question might be, so am I supposed to engage in this 54 00:03:03,000 --> 00:03:05,920 serve and return interaction at all times with children? 55 00:03:05,920 --> 00:03:09,960 If I'm busy doing something else, am I missing a really critical moment to build the child's 56 00:03:09,960 --> 00:03:10,960 brain? 57 00:03:10,960 --> 00:03:14,160 The best general answer is extreme on anything is usually not good. 58 00:03:14,160 --> 00:03:20,320 As much as it would be really bad for a baby or young child to be ignored most of the time, 59 00:03:20,320 --> 00:03:24,480 it is not helpful to be interacted with all of the time. 60 00:03:24,480 --> 00:03:28,560 That's not the real world and children at all ages need some time to process what's 61 00:03:28,560 --> 00:03:29,960 going on by themselves. 62 00:03:29,960 --> 00:03:31,180 It's a balanced issue. 63 00:03:31,180 --> 00:03:34,680 Is there anybody out there listening to this who don't want to break at some point from 64 00:03:34,680 --> 00:03:36,640 all the nice chatter and interaction? 65 00:03:36,640 --> 00:03:37,640 We all need a little bit of a break. 66 00:03:37,640 --> 00:03:38,640 We all need a break. 67 00:03:38,640 --> 00:03:39,640 Absolutely. 68 00:03:39,640 --> 00:03:42,880 The important thing is when children are young and they don't really understand a lot about 69 00:03:42,880 --> 00:03:46,420 what's going on, that is not a time to say, well, it doesn't really matter. 70 00:03:46,420 --> 00:03:51,440 Can you give us some examples, not necessarily of how to serve and return, but how specifically 71 00:03:51,440 --> 00:03:54,600 does that serve and return interaction build a strong foundation? 72 00:03:54,600 --> 00:03:57,040 It actually works in two ways. 73 00:03:57,040 --> 00:04:01,840 One is how it helps to shape and model brain connections. 74 00:04:01,840 --> 00:04:07,840 The other is the extent to which if baby doesn't get that kind of responsive interaction, it 75 00:04:07,840 --> 00:04:09,520 triggers a stress response. 76 00:04:09,520 --> 00:04:14,320 The serve and return interaction is both important for its positive, it's what scientists call 77 00:04:14,320 --> 00:04:18,560 experience expectant development, the brain is expecting it. 78 00:04:18,560 --> 00:04:22,840 But the other part of it is that because the brain is expecting it, when it doesn't get 79 00:04:22,840 --> 00:04:27,540 it, the stress system gets activated because it's biologically dangerous for a baby. 80 00:04:27,540 --> 00:04:31,600 So when it comes to serve and return interactions, how do you know what might be too much, what 81 00:04:31,600 --> 00:04:32,940 might be too little? 82 00:04:32,940 --> 00:04:37,600 Like everything else in development, there's no one size fits all model for this. 83 00:04:37,600 --> 00:04:43,320 At the end of the day, it's about knowing your baby and knowing your own style and finding 84 00:04:43,320 --> 00:04:48,400 a comfortable way of interacting that fits in a very, very wide range of normal. 85 00:04:48,400 --> 00:04:51,780 And I think we also ought to talk about the stresses on parents. 86 00:04:51,780 --> 00:04:57,080 Some parents are working full time and have less hours in the day, spend with their child. 87 00:04:57,080 --> 00:05:01,720 I think one of the worst phrases we've ever imposed on parents is this issue of the importance 88 00:05:01,720 --> 00:05:06,340 of quality time in the evening to make sure you get that quality time in if you're working 89 00:05:06,340 --> 00:05:07,340 all day. 90 00:05:07,340 --> 00:05:08,340 And you know what? 91 00:05:08,340 --> 00:05:12,640 There's probably no time in the 24 hour daily cycle that's more challenging for everybody 92 00:05:12,640 --> 00:05:15,440 than kind of early evening at the end of a long day. 93 00:05:15,440 --> 00:05:18,440 Some parents are struggling with a lot of stresses in their lives. 94 00:05:18,440 --> 00:05:20,960 And there are many parents who are dealing with depression. 95 00:05:20,960 --> 00:05:23,560 Postpartum depression is a very real thing. 96 00:05:23,560 --> 00:05:28,420 People are overwhelmed by lots of problems, can have a hard time summoning up the energy. 97 00:05:28,420 --> 00:05:32,120 And what really people need to understand is you don't have to spend hours and hours 98 00:05:32,120 --> 00:05:34,120 a day with rich interaction. 99 00:05:34,120 --> 00:05:35,920 It's the time you spend together. 100 00:05:35,920 --> 00:05:39,320 If there's very little interaction and you can't summon that energy, then it's really 101 00:05:39,320 --> 00:05:40,580 important to get help. 102 00:05:40,580 --> 00:05:45,600 But if the time you spend together includes a reasonable amount of positive interaction, 103 00:05:45,600 --> 00:05:46,600 you're there. 104 00:05:46,600 --> 00:05:49,000 You don't have to worry about whether there needs to be more. 105 00:05:49,000 --> 00:05:50,000 Thanks, Jack. 106 00:05:50,000 --> 00:05:53,880 We really loved hearing about Serve and Return and how it can be important to build responsive 107 00:05:53,880 --> 00:05:56,920 relationships in the children in our everyday lives. 108 00:05:56,920 --> 00:06:00,360 And when we come back, we'll have a few experts on Serve and Return who are joining us for 109 00:06:00,360 --> 00:06:04,760 a panel discussion. 110 00:06:04,760 --> 00:06:09,280 Here to help us talk through the implications of Serve and Return, we have Dr. Phil Fisher, 111 00:06:09,280 --> 00:06:14,080 who is the Philip H. Knight Chair and Professor of Psychology at the University of Oregon 112 00:06:14,080 --> 00:06:17,320 and the Director of the Center for Translational Neuroscience. 113 00:06:17,320 --> 00:06:18,320 Hi, Phil. 114 00:06:18,320 --> 00:06:19,320 Hey, Sally. 115 00:06:19,320 --> 00:06:21,080 Great to be here and connect with you. 116 00:06:21,080 --> 00:06:26,880 Also joining us is Ms. Patricia Moreno, who's the founder and CEO of Tempo Junto and co-founder 117 00:06:26,880 --> 00:06:29,840 of Programa Bem, who's from São Paulo, Brazil. 118 00:06:29,840 --> 00:06:30,840 Hey, Patricia. 119 00:06:30,840 --> 00:06:31,840 Hi, Sally. 120 00:06:31,840 --> 00:06:34,440 What a pleasure to be here with you. 121 00:06:34,440 --> 00:06:38,680 Also joining us is Ms. Sarah Ryan, who's the Director of Life Skills at Julie's Family 122 00:06:38,680 --> 00:06:41,200 Learning Program here in Boston. 123 00:06:41,200 --> 00:06:42,800 Welcome to the podcast, Sarah. 124 00:06:42,800 --> 00:06:43,800 Hi, Sally. 125 00:06:43,800 --> 00:06:45,360 Thank you so much for having me. 126 00:06:45,360 --> 00:06:47,280 Okay, let's go ahead and get started. 127 00:06:47,280 --> 00:06:49,500 Sarah, this first question is for you. 128 00:06:49,500 --> 00:06:52,500 How have you used the concept of Serve and Return in your work? 129 00:06:52,500 --> 00:06:58,720 I work with young mothers and we have their children actually on site in our childcare 130 00:06:58,720 --> 00:06:59,720 center. 131 00:06:59,720 --> 00:07:06,240 We have them for one hour every day and we do a parenting or life skills curriculum. 132 00:07:06,240 --> 00:07:11,920 I actually get to teach Serve and Return and touch on it every single day with them and 133 00:07:11,920 --> 00:07:19,880 talk about specific examples, what their child offered, what they offered back, and talk 134 00:07:19,880 --> 00:07:29,000 about enhancing or pointing and naming or adding one thing, adding a color, adding a 135 00:07:29,000 --> 00:07:30,000 shape. 136 00:07:30,000 --> 00:07:32,040 How have you seen that impact your families? 137 00:07:32,040 --> 00:07:36,480 Does it help them get a better understanding of Serve and Return interactions or just how 138 00:07:36,480 --> 00:07:38,080 their child is developing? 139 00:07:38,080 --> 00:07:41,440 Well, I would say all of the above. 140 00:07:41,440 --> 00:07:43,920 Then they feel this sense of competence and mastery. 141 00:07:43,920 --> 00:07:46,320 So my young moms don't have their high school diplomas. 142 00:07:46,320 --> 00:07:51,960 They're working on those and they often haven't thought of themselves as valuable teachers, 143 00:07:51,960 --> 00:07:54,920 as competent, as capable. 144 00:07:54,920 --> 00:08:00,400 And many of them didn't receive high quality, consistent Serve and Return in a nurturing 145 00:08:00,400 --> 00:08:01,400 way. 146 00:08:01,400 --> 00:08:05,720 So when they realize they can do it and they have every tool they need already to grow 147 00:08:05,720 --> 00:08:10,160 their children's brains and to develop them, it's really empowering. 148 00:08:10,160 --> 00:08:14,260 It's really exciting to watch parents of the young moms really come alive and then get 149 00:08:14,260 --> 00:08:19,800 excited about doing more of it and reporting back what their children do and feeling so 150 00:08:19,800 --> 00:08:21,160 much pride in that. 151 00:08:21,160 --> 00:08:22,160 Right. 152 00:08:22,160 --> 00:08:23,960 It's that positive reinforcement cycle, right? 153 00:08:23,960 --> 00:08:28,640 They understand that they actually already have all the skills that they need to do this. 154 00:08:28,640 --> 00:08:30,960 And Phil, that actually reminds me a lot of your work. 155 00:08:30,960 --> 00:08:35,200 And I'm wondering if you could share a bit about results that maybe you've seen, how 156 00:08:35,200 --> 00:08:39,680 people, when they start to better understand what Serve and Return is, how they are better 157 00:08:39,680 --> 00:08:41,880 able to interact with their children. 158 00:08:41,880 --> 00:08:42,880 Sure. 159 00:08:42,880 --> 00:08:44,800 I'd be happy to talk about that. 160 00:08:44,800 --> 00:08:50,000 First of all, I think the whole concept of Serve and Return has really had a huge impact 161 00:08:50,000 --> 00:08:55,720 how we communicate about the science of early childhood in the sense that it's just a really 162 00:08:55,720 --> 00:09:01,840 straightforward and vivid way to convey this idea of back and forth interactions being 163 00:09:01,840 --> 00:09:03,480 so central. 164 00:09:03,480 --> 00:09:09,040 In our own work, one of the things that's been really essential has been to clarify 165 00:09:09,040 --> 00:09:14,300 that the Serve and Return process is most impactful when it begins with the child. 166 00:09:14,300 --> 00:09:18,080 So that is the extent to which the child is exploring the world, is using language or 167 00:09:18,080 --> 00:09:23,280 vocalizations, and the adult notices the child serve and then returns it. 168 00:09:23,280 --> 00:09:27,960 But what's really transformative, I think it's pretty clear that we're pretty hardwired 169 00:09:27,960 --> 00:09:30,480 to notice what children are doing and respond. 170 00:09:30,480 --> 00:09:34,120 But it's really, it can still go beneath the radar for people to have awareness of what 171 00:09:34,120 --> 00:09:35,120 they're doing. 172 00:09:35,120 --> 00:09:40,000 And that's why a lot of us, I think, are now gravitating toward techniques like video coaching 173 00:09:40,000 --> 00:09:44,680 that can really make it apparent to people how they are participating in the Serve and 174 00:09:44,680 --> 00:09:47,640 Return process and therefore just do more of it. 175 00:09:47,640 --> 00:09:49,240 I'd like to add on something. 176 00:09:49,240 --> 00:09:53,520 I think that the word transformative is very powerful in terms of thinking of Serve and 177 00:09:53,520 --> 00:09:54,760 Return. 178 00:09:54,760 --> 00:10:00,920 And I'd like to give my testimony as a mom, because I think the first encounter that I 179 00:10:00,920 --> 00:10:05,720 have with this knowledge of Serve and Return was thinking about the way I personally act 180 00:10:05,720 --> 00:10:07,240 with my kids. 181 00:10:07,240 --> 00:10:14,960 And it was amazing to see, to really understand the metaphor that the child was ready to explore, 182 00:10:14,960 --> 00:10:20,720 and I would be the one helping them, and I discovered the knowledge of Serve and Return, 183 00:10:20,720 --> 00:10:23,880 decided to apply in my personal life. 184 00:10:23,880 --> 00:10:30,440 And I felt this transformation, both in myself and in my relationship with my kids and with 185 00:10:30,440 --> 00:10:31,440 my children. 186 00:10:31,440 --> 00:10:35,120 So I think this transformation aspect is really very, very powerful. 187 00:10:35,120 --> 00:10:39,920 Yeah, and it picks up on what both Sarah and Phil were saying, that once parents have the 188 00:10:39,920 --> 00:10:44,080 opportunity to see how Serve and Return can actually be building their child's brains 189 00:10:44,080 --> 00:10:47,640 and be building that positive relationship, it's self-perpetuating. 190 00:10:47,640 --> 00:10:49,320 You want to do more and more of it, right? 191 00:10:49,320 --> 00:10:53,600 Sarah, I'm wondering if you could speak a little bit to if there's an adult that might 192 00:10:53,600 --> 00:10:58,080 be in your program who says, you know, I actually never really experienced this Serve and Return 193 00:10:58,080 --> 00:11:02,640 interaction with my own parent, and now I'm expected to engage with it with my child, 194 00:11:02,640 --> 00:11:06,800 and it feels overwhelming, and maybe it's a science concept that I don't really want 195 00:11:06,800 --> 00:11:07,800 to dig into too much. 196 00:11:07,800 --> 00:11:11,840 What would you say to that parent to increase that interaction between them and their child? 197 00:11:11,840 --> 00:11:16,280 You know, I have had women who say that wasn't my experience at all. 198 00:11:16,280 --> 00:11:22,040 I was not to be heard, or my parents were busy working to provide, and we didn't have 199 00:11:22,040 --> 00:11:23,040 that. 200 00:11:23,040 --> 00:11:24,040 They want something different. 201 00:11:24,040 --> 00:11:26,480 And I really just start with their strengths. 202 00:11:26,480 --> 00:11:30,240 And what, you know, I very often have seen them with their children, and so I will bring 203 00:11:30,240 --> 00:11:35,600 up an example and point that out, and then they sort of take it from there. 204 00:11:35,600 --> 00:11:42,720 And they very consistently expand upon that and how great that moment was, or what happened 205 00:11:42,720 --> 00:11:46,440 next, or what preceded that before I happened upon them. 206 00:11:46,440 --> 00:11:47,960 And then we just, we go from there. 207 00:11:47,960 --> 00:11:49,440 They feel the success. 208 00:11:49,440 --> 00:11:52,040 They feel the relationship, and they want more of that. 209 00:11:52,040 --> 00:11:59,520 So they really, it's not difficult to get folks to lean into that as powerful and as 210 00:11:59,520 --> 00:12:00,520 meaningful. 211 00:12:00,520 --> 00:12:01,520 Yeah, absolutely. 212 00:12:01,520 --> 00:12:05,880 Patricia, have you seen similar interactions with the moms that you work with? 213 00:12:05,880 --> 00:12:11,200 As Jack said, we are biologically wired to serve and return, right? 214 00:12:11,200 --> 00:12:16,040 So when we just start to pay attention to what we're doing and see the lights in the 215 00:12:16,040 --> 00:12:21,080 eye of the kid when we are interacting with them, and the pleasure that you feel when 216 00:12:21,080 --> 00:12:22,720 you are responding to them. 217 00:12:22,720 --> 00:12:26,620 So whenever the family has the opportunity to live that, they want more. 218 00:12:26,620 --> 00:12:30,680 We can help people find back the pleasure of being a parent, you know. 219 00:12:30,680 --> 00:12:35,640 We spend so much time talking about the struggles and how hard it is, and it is something hard. 220 00:12:35,640 --> 00:12:37,840 It's an art to raise a kid. 221 00:12:37,840 --> 00:12:42,820 But when we help parents go through the route of finding the pleasure of being a parent. 222 00:12:42,820 --> 00:12:47,000 And for instance, in my field of work, we work a lot with play, and we put play as a 223 00:12:47,000 --> 00:12:52,320 center place in terms of making parents really have back and forth interactions with the 224 00:12:52,320 --> 00:12:53,320 kids. 225 00:12:53,320 --> 00:12:56,840 And everything we do in terms of play, everybody ends up smiling. 226 00:12:56,840 --> 00:13:02,200 So whenever we can close the gap between the concept and something that makes people's 227 00:13:02,200 --> 00:13:06,600 lives better, it's almost always easily understood and applied. 228 00:13:06,600 --> 00:13:10,680 So I'm imagining as a listener, something that might come up might be someone saying, 229 00:13:10,680 --> 00:13:14,240 well, I'd love to be doing the serve and return interaction all the time. 230 00:13:14,240 --> 00:13:17,760 I want to build the strongest brain and the best foundation for my child. 231 00:13:17,760 --> 00:13:22,180 But I'm also extremely busy and I'm juggling so many different things throughout the course 232 00:13:22,180 --> 00:13:23,180 of my day. 233 00:13:23,180 --> 00:13:25,860 Could any of you respond to what if you're a busy parent? 234 00:13:25,860 --> 00:13:29,420 How can you make sure that you're increasing these serve and return opportunities or finding 235 00:13:29,420 --> 00:13:31,920 ways to look for this in your everyday lives? 236 00:13:31,920 --> 00:13:33,960 I'm happy to talk a little bit about that. 237 00:13:33,960 --> 00:13:38,960 First and foremost, serve and return is a process that can happen in seconds. 238 00:13:38,960 --> 00:13:43,400 It's not an idea that you need to set aside an hour or two per day. 239 00:13:43,400 --> 00:13:48,120 So any opportunity to notice what the child's doing, think about it in terms of how are 240 00:13:48,120 --> 00:13:53,040 they serving and how you can return the serve is going to benefit the child in the long 241 00:13:53,040 --> 00:13:54,040 run. 242 00:13:54,040 --> 00:13:58,240 So that's probably like the one of the most important things to think. 243 00:13:58,240 --> 00:14:03,040 The other is that serve and return happens in the context of everyday things that are 244 00:14:03,040 --> 00:14:04,840 going on in people's lives. 245 00:14:04,840 --> 00:14:10,040 So whether it's meal time or whether it's time where you're getting into the car or 246 00:14:10,040 --> 00:14:13,680 driving somewhere, if the child is with you at the grocery store. 247 00:14:13,680 --> 00:14:16,960 So it's not about like do this for a certain amount of time every day. 248 00:14:16,960 --> 00:14:21,280 It's just when you have the opportunity to do it, these are moments that are really building 249 00:14:21,280 --> 00:14:22,760 healthy brain architecture. 250 00:14:22,760 --> 00:14:28,920 I love to use the expression playful parenting to describe an attitude that we can have in 251 00:14:28,920 --> 00:14:34,760 our daily lives so that we can really enjoy all these moments that Phil just described 252 00:14:34,760 --> 00:14:36,040 that happens all the time. 253 00:14:36,040 --> 00:14:38,960 So you spend some time with your kid. 254 00:14:38,960 --> 00:14:43,720 Maybe it's not too much, it's not enough, or it's not all the time that you'd like 255 00:14:43,720 --> 00:14:44,720 to have. 256 00:14:44,720 --> 00:14:49,920 But instead of complaining about the lack of time because we would all be doing that 257 00:14:49,920 --> 00:14:54,520 and we have the playful parenting as a concept, you see that you can really find joyfulness 258 00:14:54,520 --> 00:14:58,640 and you can enjoy every minute you have with your kid if you are in the right frame of 259 00:14:58,640 --> 00:14:59,640 mind. 260 00:14:59,640 --> 00:15:04,000 I would just like to add something that Patricia mentioned, playful parenting. 261 00:15:04,000 --> 00:15:07,840 My parents always identify that they want a good relationship with their children. 262 00:15:07,840 --> 00:15:13,960 So this is a simple way to teach them to serve and return interaction teaches them a way, 263 00:15:13,960 --> 00:15:20,920 a concrete way to start developing a relationship that is back and forth, that will develop 264 00:15:20,920 --> 00:15:25,800 and evolve into the children's teenage years and adolescence. 265 00:15:25,800 --> 00:15:27,920 It's going to be this continuous back and forth. 266 00:15:27,920 --> 00:15:33,800 The relationship starts now and I tell my parents, your children are babies, but you 267 00:15:33,800 --> 00:15:38,080 want them to talk to you when they're teenagers about what's going on in their lives. 268 00:15:38,080 --> 00:15:39,960 That back and forth starts right here. 269 00:15:39,960 --> 00:15:42,320 You're already starting that relationship with them. 270 00:15:42,320 --> 00:15:46,040 They want to be able to have their children come to them and talk to them. 271 00:15:46,040 --> 00:15:50,080 I noticed we've been using the term parent a lot in these conversations and Phil, I'm 272 00:15:50,080 --> 00:15:53,900 wondering does this have to be a parent that's doing the serve and return interaction? 273 00:15:53,900 --> 00:15:59,800 The idea of what serve and return can really involve is that it's an adult in the process 274 00:15:59,800 --> 00:16:03,720 of returning the child serves and those can be exploration, but they can also be that 275 00:16:03,720 --> 00:16:06,360 the child's upset or crying. 276 00:16:06,360 --> 00:16:10,960 It's really any adult with whom the child has a meaningful relationship where the serve 277 00:16:10,960 --> 00:16:13,120 and return process is so critical. 278 00:16:13,120 --> 00:16:18,480 You can think about this in terms of other adults in the family, whether it's a cousin 279 00:16:18,480 --> 00:16:21,480 of the parent or whether it's a grandparent. 280 00:16:21,480 --> 00:16:24,760 It can be foster or adoptive parents for sure. 281 00:16:24,760 --> 00:16:29,600 It can also be, and this is extremely important, it can also be in childcare and preschool 282 00:16:29,600 --> 00:16:35,640 settings that adults where the child's educator or teacher can be ones that are instrumentally 283 00:16:35,640 --> 00:16:37,920 involved in returning children's serves. 284 00:16:37,920 --> 00:16:42,800 It's really any adult with whom the child has a meaningful relationship where that serve 285 00:16:42,800 --> 00:16:45,680 and return process is going to be especially beneficial. 286 00:16:45,680 --> 00:16:46,680 Great. 287 00:16:46,680 --> 00:16:59,480 Up next, our panelists are going to answer some of your social media questions. 288 00:16:59,480 --> 00:17:02,840 Now we're going to open it up to some of our social media followers who submitted questions 289 00:17:02,840 --> 00:17:04,400 to the center. 290 00:17:04,400 --> 00:17:07,960 I will start with this question to you, Patricia. 291 00:17:07,960 --> 00:17:13,120 This is a social media question from Light Annika from Instagram, and they ask, is serve 292 00:17:13,120 --> 00:17:17,480 and return better for infants and toddlers, or can it also work with older kids? 293 00:17:17,480 --> 00:17:23,360 It can definitely work with older kids because the basics of it is understanding there's 294 00:17:23,360 --> 00:17:26,880 a person and establishing communication. 295 00:17:26,880 --> 00:17:31,440 When you start from your kid, your infant, pay attention to what they're looking and 296 00:17:31,440 --> 00:17:38,560 their serve and return based on that, later on, we will be a better listener to your older 297 00:17:38,560 --> 00:17:44,000 kid, your teen kid, and you'll be a person that will make sure that you listen first 298 00:17:44,000 --> 00:17:48,960 and speak later because you understand there is a communication process. 299 00:17:48,960 --> 00:17:50,480 Here's another one from Light Annika. 300 00:17:50,480 --> 00:17:53,480 Phil, I'd like to address this one to you. 301 00:17:53,480 --> 00:17:56,720 Should I explain to a baby everything we do and see? 302 00:17:56,720 --> 00:18:00,720 Absolutely not necessary to explain to a baby everything we do and see. 303 00:18:00,720 --> 00:18:06,680 In fact, a very young baby isn't going to have the capacity to understand everything 304 00:18:06,680 --> 00:18:07,680 that's seen and done. 305 00:18:07,680 --> 00:18:11,640 It's really a question of noticing what the child is doing and then responding. 306 00:18:11,640 --> 00:18:19,240 You can respond either by using words to respond, to name what the child is expressing or looking 307 00:18:19,240 --> 00:18:22,960 at, or you can also use other kinds of acknowledgments. 308 00:18:22,960 --> 00:18:27,640 Some of them can be just nodding your head or saying, mm-hmm, things that help them to 309 00:18:27,640 --> 00:18:31,680 understand that you see them, that you hear them, and you understand what they're focused 310 00:18:31,680 --> 00:18:32,680 on. 311 00:18:32,680 --> 00:18:34,640 It's all the stuff I'm doing right now that you guys can't see. 312 00:18:34,640 --> 00:18:40,680 I'm nodding and acknowledging and returning your serves, I promise. 313 00:18:40,680 --> 00:18:43,640 We can tell that you're listening to your response. 314 00:18:43,640 --> 00:18:44,640 Yes. 315 00:18:44,640 --> 00:18:45,640 Excellent. 316 00:18:45,640 --> 00:18:49,840 The other thing I want to put in as a really important note here is that parents often 317 00:18:49,840 --> 00:18:56,560 are interested in understanding this idea of if a child is focused on one thing and 318 00:18:56,560 --> 00:19:02,000 then they shift their attention to another, if the serve and return process involves following 319 00:19:02,000 --> 00:19:06,920 the child's lead and going from the end of one thing to another, is that what you should 320 00:19:06,920 --> 00:19:11,920 always be doing or are there times when it's helpful to encourage the child to stay at 321 00:19:11,920 --> 00:19:14,760 what they're focused on? 322 00:19:14,760 --> 00:19:18,960 The concept of serve and return is really built around the idea of following what it 323 00:19:18,960 --> 00:19:21,000 is that the child is doing. 324 00:19:21,000 --> 00:19:27,680 I think especially for children under age three, this idea that there's a point at which 325 00:19:27,680 --> 00:19:32,400 they've had enough of focusing on a particular task and that their attention shifts to something 326 00:19:32,400 --> 00:19:34,840 else is really critical. 327 00:19:34,840 --> 00:19:39,280 One of the things that parents can do that's most helpful is to just wait and see what 328 00:19:39,280 --> 00:19:44,840 the child is doing and follow their attention from one thing to another. 329 00:19:44,840 --> 00:19:51,160 As children get older, it may be possible to direct their attention back to something 330 00:19:51,160 --> 00:19:56,800 that's a task at hand that is important to focus on, whether it's eating or something 331 00:19:56,800 --> 00:20:00,320 else that might be important to have sustained attention. 332 00:20:00,320 --> 00:20:06,560 This idea of noticing what the child's doing, mapping onto their serve and then returning 333 00:20:06,560 --> 00:20:11,320 their serve doesn't mean that all day, every day, parents should just be following what 334 00:20:11,320 --> 00:20:12,320 the child's doing. 335 00:20:12,320 --> 00:20:16,800 There are plenty of times when you're needing to leave the house, the child has to be put 336 00:20:16,800 --> 00:20:22,400 in their car seat, you're walking across the street, where it's not up to the child to 337 00:20:22,400 --> 00:20:23,640 do what they want to do. 338 00:20:23,640 --> 00:20:29,020 The adult really has to be the one who's determining what's happening, and that's just fine. 339 00:20:29,020 --> 00:20:33,680 There's in no way and effort to say, like, only do what your child wants to do. 340 00:20:33,680 --> 00:20:38,220 It's more about, as we've all been saying, noticing the situations where you have the 341 00:20:38,220 --> 00:20:43,000 opportunity to let the child leave to notice what they're doing and then to return their 342 00:20:43,000 --> 00:20:46,600 serve that are particularly helpful for brain development. 343 00:20:46,600 --> 00:20:47,600 Here's another one. 344 00:20:47,600 --> 00:20:49,800 This is from El Mies from Instagram. 345 00:20:49,800 --> 00:20:52,400 Sarah, I'll address this one to you. 346 00:20:52,400 --> 00:20:55,680 She asks, I have two little boys who are almost four years apart. 347 00:20:55,680 --> 00:20:57,760 What's the best way I can engage them both? 348 00:20:57,760 --> 00:20:58,760 Sure. 349 00:20:58,760 --> 00:21:01,000 So there's some things that are just so universal. 350 00:21:01,000 --> 00:21:02,560 What is important to you? 351 00:21:02,560 --> 00:21:03,760 What do you have fun doing? 352 00:21:03,760 --> 00:21:06,200 What do your children have fun doing and following them? 353 00:21:06,200 --> 00:21:10,480 So if you have a dance party in your house, this is good for everybody. 354 00:21:10,480 --> 00:21:16,200 You know, if you are enthusiastic when somebody starts to dance and then everybody's dancing. 355 00:21:16,200 --> 00:21:20,940 If you take what the older child is capable of doing and let them start to serve and return 356 00:21:20,940 --> 00:21:24,460 with the younger child, the younger child's always so much more interested in whatever 357 00:21:24,460 --> 00:21:28,320 the older child is doing than what the parent is doing most of the time. 358 00:21:28,320 --> 00:21:33,640 Anytime you can have that magical moment where the older child is engaged with the younger 359 00:21:33,640 --> 00:21:37,000 child and they're both leading the way and back and forth. 360 00:21:37,000 --> 00:21:40,920 And then the parents just hop in occasionally in that. 361 00:21:40,920 --> 00:21:45,440 There's so many natural moments to let the older child engage the younger child. 362 00:21:45,440 --> 00:21:48,960 I want to say something else about this question. 363 00:21:48,960 --> 00:21:54,720 When she says that the best way I can engage with them both, there's for me something behind 364 00:21:54,720 --> 00:22:00,440 that is investing some time to understand your kids, who they really are and what they 365 00:22:00,440 --> 00:22:01,440 like. 366 00:22:01,440 --> 00:22:07,520 We forgot to do that, you know, to not come up with our own ideas of how to engage them, 367 00:22:07,520 --> 00:22:12,280 but just to work with the things that they like to do. 368 00:22:12,280 --> 00:22:15,920 And if you know that, it's not that hard to engage them. 369 00:22:15,920 --> 00:22:17,840 That was a really great conversation. 370 00:22:17,840 --> 00:22:22,000 I just really want to thank all of you for your time being here and for giving us your 371 00:22:22,000 --> 00:22:23,920 expertise on these topics. 372 00:22:23,920 --> 00:22:28,480 Up next, Dr. Jack Shonkoff will be here to debunk another early childhood development 373 00:22:28,480 --> 00:22:32,760 myth. 374 00:22:32,760 --> 00:22:35,320 And we're back with Dr. Jack Shonkoff. 375 00:22:35,320 --> 00:22:38,600 We've been talking a lot today about the need for active engagement between a child and 376 00:22:38,600 --> 00:22:42,120 a caregiver and that serve and return interaction that you were sharing. 377 00:22:42,120 --> 00:22:46,400 And it sort of reminded me of that expression that we often hear people use in our line 378 00:22:46,400 --> 00:22:50,280 of work where people will say things like babies are sponges or that their brains are 379 00:22:50,280 --> 00:22:51,280 always absorbing. 380 00:22:51,280 --> 00:22:55,820 And but from what we've heard today, that doesn't seem to be a correct analogy. 381 00:22:55,820 --> 00:23:00,600 So I'm really glad you used that analogy, Sally, because we do talk about babies as 382 00:23:00,600 --> 00:23:01,600 sponges a lot. 383 00:23:01,600 --> 00:23:06,680 From a scientific point of view, sponges is probably not the best way to describe babies 384 00:23:06,680 --> 00:23:11,720 because a sponge kind of sits there and passively absorbs what's coming. 385 00:23:11,720 --> 00:23:16,560 What's different about serve and return is that the baby or any young child is an active 386 00:23:16,560 --> 00:23:18,040 agent of that interaction. 387 00:23:18,040 --> 00:23:22,180 It's not just passively absorbing, it's also serving. 388 00:23:22,180 --> 00:23:24,440 It's feeding into that interaction. 389 00:23:24,440 --> 00:23:25,440 That's the key difference. 390 00:23:25,440 --> 00:23:30,440 So we are not passive sponges even though we soak up everything around us. 391 00:23:30,440 --> 00:23:33,040 We are active agents in our own development. 392 00:23:33,040 --> 00:23:34,400 We are not passive sponges. 393 00:23:34,400 --> 00:23:37,520 That's the sound clip I'll take away from this. 394 00:23:37,520 --> 00:23:41,720 Parents who buy educational videos for babies, play classical music or show you beautiful 395 00:23:41,720 --> 00:23:43,800 art, that's been studied. 396 00:23:43,800 --> 00:23:46,920 And it's been found that it has no effect on children. 397 00:23:46,920 --> 00:23:47,920 Why? 398 00:23:47,920 --> 00:23:48,920 It's only one way. 399 00:23:48,920 --> 00:23:49,920 There's no serve and return. 400 00:23:49,920 --> 00:23:51,980 You're just passively listening. 401 00:23:51,980 --> 00:23:54,000 That's not how kids learn to talk. 402 00:23:54,000 --> 00:23:58,840 A lot of research on language development shows that at birth, the brain is capable 403 00:23:58,840 --> 00:24:02,680 of speaking, learning and speaking any language in the world fluently. 404 00:24:02,680 --> 00:24:04,800 And in the beginning, it's listening. 405 00:24:04,800 --> 00:24:07,480 It's kind of listening to all that chatter going on around. 406 00:24:07,480 --> 00:24:11,600 It's beginning to differentiate sounds by 9 to 12 months of age. 407 00:24:11,600 --> 00:24:17,000 Research is very clear that children are already losing the ability to differentiate sounds 408 00:24:17,000 --> 00:24:18,640 in languages they've never heard. 409 00:24:18,640 --> 00:24:22,480 The brain is pruning away that ability and focusing on just the language it's heard. 410 00:24:22,480 --> 00:24:27,040 So whether it's language development, whether it's kind of learning about cause and effect, 411 00:24:27,040 --> 00:24:30,960 whether it's learning just about everything in the world, it's the back and forth interaction 412 00:24:30,960 --> 00:24:36,720 studied in animals, studied in humans, that comes out to the simple term of serve and 413 00:24:36,720 --> 00:24:37,720 return. 414 00:24:37,720 --> 00:24:41,680 You can't just feed information into a baby's brain. 415 00:24:41,680 --> 00:24:46,720 You have to engage in an active back and forth serve and return interaction where the baby 416 00:24:46,720 --> 00:24:51,560 is playing a role and the adult is playing a role and you influence each other. 417 00:24:51,560 --> 00:24:54,520 That's how healthy brain development happens, that's serve and return. 418 00:24:54,520 --> 00:24:55,520 Thanks Jack. 419 00:24:55,520 --> 00:24:56,520 Another myth busted. 420 00:24:56,520 --> 00:25:06,080 And up next, how do we add serve and return interaction to our already busy lives? 421 00:25:06,080 --> 00:25:09,080 We'll leave you with some really simple ways to get started with incorporating serve and 422 00:25:09,080 --> 00:25:10,480 return into everyday lives. 423 00:25:10,480 --> 00:25:14,640 And it can be as easy as playing peek-a-boo or where's baby, a game where there's back 424 00:25:14,640 --> 00:25:16,560 and forth between you and a child. 425 00:25:16,560 --> 00:25:21,120 Or you could just take a few seconds to notice what a baby or toddler is looking at and then 426 00:25:21,120 --> 00:25:22,280 talk to them about it. 427 00:25:22,280 --> 00:25:26,460 So for example, if you're looking at a toy, you could say something like, that's a ball 428 00:25:26,460 --> 00:25:28,640 or a doll or block, whatever you're looking at. 429 00:25:28,640 --> 00:25:30,920 It's just important that you're sharing the attention. 430 00:25:30,920 --> 00:25:32,280 And then you would describe it in words. 431 00:25:32,280 --> 00:25:35,240 You might say something like, it's round and green. 432 00:25:35,240 --> 00:25:36,620 You'd wait for their reaction. 433 00:25:36,620 --> 00:25:38,720 Then you'll share that interaction back and forth. 434 00:25:38,720 --> 00:25:42,860 So if you're not used to talking through everything with a baby, don't worry, it does get easier 435 00:25:42,860 --> 00:25:43,960 with practice. 436 00:25:43,960 --> 00:25:48,680 And even these really simple steps are making amazing connections in a child's brain. 437 00:25:48,680 --> 00:25:53,440 I'd like to once again thank our guests, Dr. Phil Fisher, Ms. Patricia Marino, and Ms. 438 00:25:53,440 --> 00:25:55,840 Sarah Ryan and Dr. Jack Shonkoff. 439 00:25:55,840 --> 00:26:00,000 I'm your host, Sally Fitzer, and we'll see you next time. 440 00:26:00,000 --> 00:26:04,500 The Brain Architects is a product of the Center on the Developing Child at Harvard University. 441 00:26:04,500 --> 00:26:09,920 And you can find us at developingchild.harvard.edu, where we'll post any resources that were discussed 442 00:26:09,920 --> 00:26:10,920 in this episode. 443 00:26:10,920 --> 00:26:16,540 We're also on Twitter at Harvard Center, Facebook at Center Developing Child, and Instagram 444 00:26:16,540 --> 00:26:18,440 at Developing Child Harvard. 445 00:26:18,440 --> 00:26:22,240 Brandi Thomas, Charlie Gibney, and Kristin Holmstrand are our producers. 446 00:26:22,240 --> 00:26:24,480 Bridget Sear is our audio editor. 447 00:26:24,480 --> 00:26:28,520 And our music is Brain Power by Miele from freemusicarchive.org. 448 00:26:28,520 --> 00:26:48,880 The podcast is recorded at PRX Podcast Garage in Alston, Massachusetts.