WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:03.120 Very weird. Pro tip, don't share your chapstick 00:00:03.120 --> 00:00:08.080 with strangers. Should be a life lesson. Welcome 00:00:08.080 --> 00:00:10.339 to County Connection, the official podcast of 00:00:10.339 --> 00:00:12.339 the Washington State Association of Counties, 00:00:12.339 --> 00:00:14.699 where we dive into the legislative issues shaping 00:00:14.699 --> 00:00:17.160 the future of our communities. From budgets to 00:00:17.160 --> 00:00:20.100 public safety, infrastructure to elections, we'll 00:00:20.100 --> 00:00:22.739 break down what's happening in Olympia and how 00:00:22.739 --> 00:00:24.719 it impacts counties from across the Evergreen 00:00:24.719 --> 00:00:27.820 State. Stay informed, stay engaged, and join 00:00:27.820 --> 00:00:30.420 us as we amplify the voice of Washington's 39 00:00:30.420 --> 00:00:35.259 counties. Welcome back, everybody, to the County 00:00:35.259 --> 00:00:37.380 Connection podcast. I'm Paul Jewell, your host 00:00:37.380 --> 00:00:39.560 and government relations director for the Washington 00:00:39.560 --> 00:00:42.340 State Association of Counties. This is the official 00:00:42.340 --> 00:00:46.399 podcast of WASAC, and I'm here once again to 00:00:46.399 --> 00:00:49.399 talk about really cool legislative stuff with 00:00:49.399 --> 00:00:52.920 none other than Kelsey Hulse. Hello, Paul. How's 00:00:52.920 --> 00:00:57.990 it going? It's going well. Happy cutoff. Happy 00:00:57.990 --> 00:01:01.590 House of Origin cutoff to all who celebrate. 00:01:01.890 --> 00:01:03.990 It was a couple of days ago. Today's Friday. 00:01:04.069 --> 00:01:07.750 It's late in the afternoon, but I like to enjoy 00:01:07.750 --> 00:01:09.530 a good cutoff for a couple of days. I don't know 00:01:09.530 --> 00:01:12.620 about you. Let that feeling last. Because it'll 00:01:12.620 --> 00:01:14.239 be gone by tomorrow, that's for sure. That's 00:01:14.239 --> 00:01:16.000 true, too, yeah. Yeah, we actually have a big 00:01:16.000 --> 00:01:19.319 weekend of work in front of us. Budgets are coming 00:01:19.319 --> 00:01:22.519 out on Sunday. That's a dirty trick, I think, 00:01:22.540 --> 00:01:25.359 by the legislature, just to make us poor lobbyists 00:01:25.359 --> 00:01:29.120 work on Sunday, I think, this year. But I guess 00:01:29.120 --> 00:01:31.459 we've got to do what we've got to do. How is 00:01:31.459 --> 00:01:35.060 everything with you and the issues you've been 00:01:35.060 --> 00:01:39.299 following for WASAC? Well, it's a short session. 00:01:39.689 --> 00:01:41.510 And we did have the House of Origin cut off, 00:01:41.549 --> 00:01:47.250 so a lot of things died. A lot of bills just 00:01:47.250 --> 00:01:50.569 went away, and some of them for very good reasons, 00:01:50.590 --> 00:01:54.010 because they faced opposition or they weren't 00:01:54.010 --> 00:01:56.590 well -stakeholdered, and some of them just because 00:01:56.590 --> 00:01:59.250 they ran out of time or there wasn't somebody 00:01:59.250 --> 00:02:01.150 fighting hard enough for it behind the doors 00:02:01.150 --> 00:02:04.590 or, you know, a thousand other reasons. One of 00:02:04.590 --> 00:02:06.269 the things I like to tell clients is that for 00:02:06.269 --> 00:02:09.599 a bill to pass, Everything has to go right. Especially 00:02:09.599 --> 00:02:12.360 in a short session. And for a bill to fail, only 00:02:12.360 --> 00:02:14.800 one thing has to go wrong. Yeah. Yeah. There's, 00:02:14.800 --> 00:02:17.419 you know, that first House of Origin cutoff. 00:02:17.419 --> 00:02:19.560 And by that, we mean the floor cutoff when really 00:02:19.560 --> 00:02:21.479 you've been through the policy committee, you've 00:02:21.479 --> 00:02:23.780 been through the finance committee. Now you're 00:02:23.780 --> 00:02:25.479 on the floor. And if you don't get off the floor 00:02:25.479 --> 00:02:28.759 of the side of the legislature where you started, 00:02:28.800 --> 00:02:31.780 if you're a bill, you being the bill in this 00:02:31.780 --> 00:02:35.259 particular case. Got it. You're not moving forward. 00:02:35.300 --> 00:02:38.319 You're done. right, for the session. Now, was 00:02:38.319 --> 00:02:40.960 there anything in particular that you were working 00:02:40.960 --> 00:02:45.680 on that died that was a good thing in your mind? 00:02:45.699 --> 00:02:47.500 So it was a bad bill from a county perspective. 00:02:48.439 --> 00:02:52.319 Sure. And this is a little segue, teaser for 00:02:52.319 --> 00:02:54.979 the next part of our conversation, but we had 00:02:54.979 --> 00:02:58.560 a bill from last year that popped back to life. 00:02:59.240 --> 00:03:06.340 It's alive! Ah. Just, oh. last week i believe 00:03:06.340 --> 00:03:10.479 um which was the mobile dwellings bill oh i remember 00:03:10.479 --> 00:03:13.539 that one yes and i don't remember the bill number 00:03:13.539 --> 00:03:16.719 offhand um but the mobile dwellings bill is something 00:03:16.719 --> 00:03:19.300 we talked a lot about last year came back this 00:03:19.300 --> 00:03:23.560 year had been uh amended on the uh not on the 00:03:23.560 --> 00:03:26.960 floor it had had been amended we looked at the 00:03:26.960 --> 00:03:29.719 new version still had some issues our friends 00:03:30.110 --> 00:03:33.949 at wasolfo also had issues very consistent with 00:03:33.949 --> 00:03:37.729 ours the bill essentially required jurisdictions 00:03:37.729 --> 00:03:43.569 to allow rvs tiny homes homes on wheels a variety 00:03:43.569 --> 00:03:46.110 of types of mobile dwellings anywhere that trailers 00:03:46.110 --> 00:03:49.490 right in many cases trailers anywhere that houses 00:03:49.490 --> 00:03:51.810 were allowed basically in any you know residential 00:03:51.810 --> 00:03:56.539 zone And limited how you could inspect them and 00:03:56.539 --> 00:03:59.300 what kind of connections and hookups were required 00:03:59.300 --> 00:04:01.460 and all that kind of stuff. So we had a lot of 00:04:01.460 --> 00:04:04.479 issues with that from not just a public health 00:04:04.479 --> 00:04:07.879 standpoint alongside our friends at Wasolfo, 00:04:07.900 --> 00:04:10.939 but also from an infrastructure standpoint, right? 00:04:11.020 --> 00:04:13.639 We build infrastructure because we expect a certain 00:04:13.639 --> 00:04:16.180 number of residents in an area. If those numbers 00:04:16.180 --> 00:04:18.939 are thrown way off, you know, all kinds of... 00:04:19.639 --> 00:04:21.920 problems there. Well, and if I remember correctly, 00:04:22.100 --> 00:04:25.240 and before we go any further, you've said WASALFO 00:04:25.240 --> 00:04:28.699 twice now, which breaks the rules here at the 00:04:28.699 --> 00:04:32.300 County Connection podcast. You can't use acronyms 00:04:32.300 --> 00:04:35.160 without first saying what the acronym is, or 00:04:35.160 --> 00:04:37.579 at least very quickly afterwards. So WASALFO 00:04:37.579 --> 00:04:43.759 stands for? Washington State Association of Local 00:04:43.759 --> 00:04:46.860 Public Health Officials. You got it. Yep, that's 00:04:46.860 --> 00:04:50.680 perfect. Nicely done. That's a tough one. That's 00:04:50.680 --> 00:04:53.620 a tough one. Wasn't sure I knew it. So getting 00:04:53.620 --> 00:04:55.120 back to the bill, though, if I remember correctly, 00:04:55.300 --> 00:04:58.259 there were even restrictions on parking. We couldn't 00:04:58.259 --> 00:05:01.879 require off -street parking for these mobile 00:05:01.879 --> 00:05:05.379 dwellings, if I remember. And at one point, the 00:05:05.379 --> 00:05:08.439 bill required that even if you had a single -family 00:05:08.439 --> 00:05:10.560 residential home, you had to allow at least two 00:05:10.560 --> 00:05:14.879 of these, right? And you couldn't add additional 00:05:14.879 --> 00:05:19.019 restrictions. And so you would almost add, I 00:05:19.019 --> 00:05:21.819 mean, imagine every single family residential 00:05:21.819 --> 00:05:25.300 neighborhood with a house and then two trailers 00:05:25.300 --> 00:05:29.819 or two. Regardless of lot size. Yeah. I mean, 00:05:29.839 --> 00:05:32.060 there were no minimums there. No setbacks. And 00:05:32.060 --> 00:05:34.040 where's everybody going to park? And are the 00:05:34.040 --> 00:05:36.759 septic systems built for that? Is the water system 00:05:36.759 --> 00:05:39.620 built for that? Not to mention potential other 00:05:39.620 --> 00:05:42.569 public. not just public health, but public safety 00:05:42.569 --> 00:05:45.769 concerns around fire hazards and separations 00:05:45.769 --> 00:05:47.750 and different things like that. So a lot of problems 00:05:47.750 --> 00:05:51.069 with that bill. Yeah, and I think the most recent 00:05:51.069 --> 00:05:54.110 version got better than what we saw last year, 00:05:54.170 --> 00:05:56.569 but nonetheless, some of our reservations remained. 00:05:56.730 --> 00:06:00.709 So we were not terribly sad to see that that 00:06:00.709 --> 00:06:03.589 bill didn't make it forward, given that just 00:06:03.589 --> 00:06:08.160 getting that to a workable place, if... possible 00:06:08.160 --> 00:06:10.339 was going to take some real real time and that 00:06:10.339 --> 00:06:12.560 just didn't exist in this short session so that 00:06:12.560 --> 00:06:15.360 bill died that bill died at the cutoff and that 00:06:15.360 --> 00:06:18.040 was a good thing now what about on the flip side 00:06:18.040 --> 00:06:20.180 where were there any bills that you were working 00:06:20.180 --> 00:06:23.360 hard to try to pass that didn't make it past 00:06:23.360 --> 00:06:25.779 the cutoff so from our perspective would have 00:06:25.779 --> 00:06:27.560 been a good bill that died and therefore a bad 00:06:27.560 --> 00:06:33.540 thing um you know we had looked at uh i think 00:06:33.540 --> 00:06:38.050 we've talked perhaps a couple of times on wanting 00:06:38.050 --> 00:06:44.089 to get some changes to cannabis licensing language. 00:06:44.389 --> 00:06:46.889 Oh, yeah. And there were a couple of bills this 00:06:46.889 --> 00:06:49.170 session that presented potential opportunities 00:06:49.170 --> 00:06:52.050 to do that. In fact, we had an amendment that 00:06:52.050 --> 00:06:56.170 we were hoping for that was introduced in committee. 00:06:57.300 --> 00:06:59.079 So we thought we were making some progress on 00:06:59.079 --> 00:07:01.399 that issue, but both of those bills ended up 00:07:01.399 --> 00:07:04.240 dying. So there's no good vehicle to get that 00:07:04.240 --> 00:07:06.660 done this session. That is something we've been 00:07:06.660 --> 00:07:08.240 working on for a long time. We've made a little 00:07:08.240 --> 00:07:11.360 progress on in previous years, but it seems like 00:07:11.360 --> 00:07:13.439 every time we finally find a vehicle to make 00:07:13.439 --> 00:07:16.220 that one work, it doesn't make it past the cutoffs, 00:07:16.220 --> 00:07:20.139 unfortunately. Well, that's interesting. Cutoff 00:07:20.139 --> 00:07:22.360 is always interesting. It's always fascinating. 00:07:22.800 --> 00:07:26.259 to watch that process. And during a short session, 00:07:26.360 --> 00:07:30.980 a lot of carnage can get created right at cutoff. 00:07:32.079 --> 00:07:34.720 But... Have you talked about the cutoff drama? 00:07:35.180 --> 00:07:37.680 Well, a little bit. Yeah, Brad and I talked about 00:07:37.680 --> 00:07:39.980 some of it. And I know that you were sitting 00:07:39.980 --> 00:07:42.980 around for some of that too. But I didn't want 00:07:42.980 --> 00:07:45.529 to talk about that. with you today. I actually 00:07:45.529 --> 00:07:47.949 wanted to talk about kind of that cutoff carnage 00:07:47.949 --> 00:07:50.709 a little bit. And you kind of alluded to it when 00:07:50.709 --> 00:07:52.569 you brought up the first bill that you said just 00:07:52.569 --> 00:07:56.689 kind of came back suddenly from last year. And 00:07:56.689 --> 00:08:00.189 those, we call those zombie bills. Zombie bills. 00:08:00.410 --> 00:08:03.959 Right? The bills that just kind of... In the 00:08:03.959 --> 00:08:05.800 first year of a biennium, they never make it 00:08:05.800 --> 00:08:07.500 through the system or they make it partway through 00:08:07.500 --> 00:08:09.740 the system and they just kind of stop. They get 00:08:09.740 --> 00:08:11.819 returned to their committee of origin or maybe 00:08:11.819 --> 00:08:14.319 they hang out in rules for a while. And then 00:08:14.319 --> 00:08:18.279 here we are halfway through the session or almost 00:08:18.279 --> 00:08:20.819 halfway through the session and suddenly, boom, 00:08:21.040 --> 00:08:25.139 that bill just comes up in a hearing or oftentimes 00:08:25.139 --> 00:08:29.100 not in a hearing. It just comes up for an executive 00:08:29.100 --> 00:08:32.509 session in a committee with a new version. That 00:08:32.509 --> 00:08:35.370 nobody's seen, at least not us, right? Or pops 00:08:35.370 --> 00:08:37.870 out of rules. Or pops out of rules out of nowhere 00:08:37.870 --> 00:08:40.269 and oftentimes goes right to the floor so that 00:08:40.269 --> 00:08:42.070 it can make it pass. And now this thing's in 00:08:42.070 --> 00:08:44.929 play again. And you have a really good example 00:08:44.929 --> 00:08:48.549 of one of those bills that popped. Well, why 00:08:48.549 --> 00:08:49.850 don't you tell the story? Because I can't remember 00:08:49.850 --> 00:08:53.990 where it came from. So the bill, which we had 00:08:53.990 --> 00:08:58.590 seen last session, came out of the Rules Committee 00:08:58.590 --> 00:09:04.190 on February 16th. and then was run on the floor 00:09:04.190 --> 00:09:07.769 of the Senate on February 17th. So it came out 00:09:07.769 --> 00:09:10.139 of committee four days ago. Mm -hmm. and then 00:09:10.139 --> 00:09:12.080 was run on the floor of the Senate the very next 00:09:12.080 --> 00:09:14.899 day. Now, when it comes out of rules, of course, 00:09:14.919 --> 00:09:18.639 rules is where it's been, just to remind everybody, 00:09:18.860 --> 00:09:20.399 it's already been through the policy committee, 00:09:20.500 --> 00:09:21.960 and if it had to go through a fiscal committee, 00:09:22.059 --> 00:09:24.460 it did that. And then rules is kind of the last 00:09:24.460 --> 00:09:26.440 gatekeeper before it gets to the floor, before 00:09:26.440 --> 00:09:28.539 it gets put on the bar and potentially on a run 00:09:28.539 --> 00:09:30.960 list. So in this particular case, there were 00:09:30.960 --> 00:09:33.419 no hearings then on this bill at all this year 00:09:33.419 --> 00:09:36.720 before it popped out and was on the floor of 00:09:36.720 --> 00:09:38.600 the Senate in this particular case? Correct. 00:09:39.540 --> 00:09:42.039 So this is a real zombie bill. It really is. 00:09:42.120 --> 00:09:43.740 And we should mention that we're talking about 00:09:43.740 --> 00:09:49.220 Senate Bill 5360. 5360. Which is concerning environmental 00:09:49.220 --> 00:09:52.500 crimes. Okay. And I'm pretty sure we talked about 00:09:52.500 --> 00:09:54.440 this bill at least a couple of times last year. 00:09:54.919 --> 00:09:58.179 So if it's a bill that you want to get more details 00:09:58.179 --> 00:10:00.860 on, you could certainly go back into the archives 00:10:00.860 --> 00:10:04.590 of our library and find. the podcast episode 00:10:04.590 --> 00:10:07.509 with Kelsey where we talked about this bill. 00:10:07.629 --> 00:10:10.269 But give everybody a quick synopsis of what this 00:10:10.269 --> 00:10:13.850 bill actually does. Essentially, the bill is 00:10:13.850 --> 00:10:20.429 looking to add potential felony charges to violations 00:10:20.429 --> 00:10:23.529 of the Clean Air Act, the Clean Water Act, and 00:10:23.529 --> 00:10:27.350 the hazardous waste statutes such that people 00:10:27.350 --> 00:10:33.299 who knowingly commit crimes are held held accountable 00:10:33.299 --> 00:10:38.240 in a criminal sense, in addition to kind of fines 00:10:38.240 --> 00:10:40.799 and those types of violations, which we typically 00:10:40.799 --> 00:10:45.480 see. And this was prompted by something that 00:10:45.480 --> 00:10:48.470 happened where somebody made some... boneheaded 00:10:48.470 --> 00:10:52.169 choices and did some things that resulted in 00:10:52.169 --> 00:10:54.669 some pretty serious environmental contamination. 00:10:55.590 --> 00:10:58.049 What would that be like? So you said it was like 00:10:58.049 --> 00:11:00.909 the Clean Air Act, Clean Water Act, those sorts 00:11:00.909 --> 00:11:04.070 of things. So what would you, I mean, is it like... 00:11:04.379 --> 00:11:09.019 dying the river green or is it um chicago would 00:11:09.019 --> 00:11:13.000 disagree um however yes st patty's day coming 00:11:13.000 --> 00:11:14.620 up that's the one thing that kind of came to 00:11:14.620 --> 00:11:17.440 mind right was uh you know what is it what would 00:11:17.440 --> 00:11:21.139 you have to do to you know say commit an environmental 00:11:21.139 --> 00:11:26.039 crime i would think um think about Again, in 00:11:26.039 --> 00:11:29.379 the bill, it would require the act to be intentional, 00:11:29.559 --> 00:11:32.980 but I would think about intentionally contaminating 00:11:32.980 --> 00:11:37.720 water or the air, possibly by releasing something, 00:11:37.980 --> 00:11:43.779 whether it's some sort of a chemical or contaminant. 00:11:43.779 --> 00:11:48.159 What about lighting a pile of old tires on fire? 00:11:48.419 --> 00:11:50.980 Would that be a violation? I would think so. 00:11:51.500 --> 00:11:55.129 And that particularly around the... the hazardous 00:11:55.129 --> 00:11:59.070 waste piece, but also air contamination due to 00:11:59.070 --> 00:12:02.990 fumes and whatnot that might come from that. 00:12:03.210 --> 00:12:05.789 What if I was a big paint manufacturer and I 00:12:05.789 --> 00:12:09.669 had like 25 -gallon drums of, say, paint thinner 00:12:09.669 --> 00:12:11.330 that I needed to get rid of and I just decided 00:12:11.330 --> 00:12:13.210 to dump them in the Puget Sound? Would that be 00:12:13.210 --> 00:12:15.649 a violation? Mm -hmm. So that's the type of kind 00:12:15.649 --> 00:12:19.149 of crime against the environment that we're talking 00:12:19.149 --> 00:12:22.230 about here. The event that precipitated the bill 00:12:22.230 --> 00:12:25.820 and... you can decide whether this story is something 00:12:25.820 --> 00:12:28.000 that you want to hang on to or not. I can't remember 00:12:28.000 --> 00:12:30.620 if we talked about this. Hang on to or not? That 00:12:30.620 --> 00:12:36.500 feels like a strange teaser. No, not necessarily. 00:12:36.539 --> 00:12:39.659 Just meaning the podcast might run a little long 00:12:39.659 --> 00:12:41.480 and you might make editorial decisions about 00:12:41.480 --> 00:12:43.120 what you want to keep and what you want to let 00:12:43.120 --> 00:12:49.559 go of. Anyway, was a situation with the electron 00:12:49.559 --> 00:12:53.159 dam on the carbon and... carbon river and affecting 00:12:53.159 --> 00:12:55.639 the Puyallup river where the owner of the dam 00:12:55.639 --> 00:12:59.740 decided to essentially line part of the, um, 00:12:59.980 --> 00:13:04.200 part of the spillway, I believe with some recycled 00:13:04.200 --> 00:13:08.840 rubber material that he had gotten free or cheaply 00:13:08.840 --> 00:13:12.539 somewhere, lined it, ran a bunch of water through 00:13:12.539 --> 00:13:15.860 it. And all of this rubber broke up into tiny 00:13:15.860 --> 00:13:19.470 little crumb pieces and washed down the river 00:13:19.470 --> 00:13:22.029 and out into commencement bay i remember that 00:13:22.029 --> 00:13:24.909 it was a big deal and it had an effect on salmon 00:13:24.909 --> 00:13:27.269 didn't it it probably will have an effect on 00:13:27.269 --> 00:13:29.190 salmon for a long time because they can't clean 00:13:29.190 --> 00:13:31.809 it up right it's little tiny little tiny pieces 00:13:31.809 --> 00:13:34.210 yeah all over the all over the carbon river all 00:13:34.210 --> 00:13:35.690 over the puyallup river all over commencement 00:13:35.690 --> 00:13:40.200 bay so serious contamination again that's not 00:13:40.200 --> 00:13:45.340 really feasibly cleanable um and i think the 00:13:45.340 --> 00:13:47.600 result and you know don't quote me on this but 00:13:47.600 --> 00:13:49.919 i think the result was some sort of fine right 00:13:49.919 --> 00:13:52.759 penalty and that was seen as insufficient for 00:13:52.759 --> 00:13:55.379 folks who were who really cared about well especially 00:13:55.379 --> 00:13:57.519 for a crime of that magnitude totally where they 00:13:57.519 --> 00:14:00.960 probably knowingly knew what the outcome was 00:14:00.960 --> 00:14:03.279 going to be, did it anyways, and now it can't 00:14:03.279 --> 00:14:05.620 be cleaned up. So the restitution is really limited 00:14:05.620 --> 00:14:09.440 in this particular case. So seeking more severe 00:14:09.440 --> 00:14:13.320 penalties for severe crimes in the minds, I think, 00:14:13.320 --> 00:14:19.820 of the proponents, which on its face is not something 00:14:19.820 --> 00:14:22.659 that I think anybody really has an issue with. 00:14:22.899 --> 00:14:24.720 Yeah, it sounds like a good thing, right? Nobody 00:14:24.720 --> 00:14:26.720 is saying that you shouldn't hold people who 00:14:26.720 --> 00:14:30.210 commit criminal acts. for those criminal acts. 00:14:30.409 --> 00:14:36.330 Our concern comes in both the language around 00:14:36.330 --> 00:14:39.830 how a quote -unquote person is defined, which 00:14:39.830 --> 00:14:43.350 includes municipalities and subdivisions of the 00:14:43.350 --> 00:14:49.950 state, and how those entities might be held liable 00:14:49.950 --> 00:14:54.230 or accountable either for acts that they commit 00:14:54.230 --> 00:14:57.669 or their employee commits. Our question is then, 00:14:58.240 --> 00:15:03.580 How do you charge a county or a municipality 00:15:03.580 --> 00:15:08.419 with a felony? And then what does that do if 00:15:08.419 --> 00:15:11.539 counties have broad exposure to liability as 00:15:11.539 --> 00:15:14.159 a result of that? What does it do to their ability 00:15:14.159 --> 00:15:17.700 to get insurance? There's a whole bunch of questions 00:15:17.700 --> 00:15:20.120 in terms of how that would even work and what 00:15:20.120 --> 00:15:25.139 the results or the implications might be. It's 00:15:25.139 --> 00:15:30.620 interesting that... For a bill that does what 00:15:30.620 --> 00:15:34.000 you describe as far as basically intends to hold 00:15:34.000 --> 00:15:35.799 people accountable for doing the wrong thing 00:15:35.799 --> 00:15:38.639 intentionally, that they bring in municipalities 00:15:38.639 --> 00:15:43.200 and counties, so cities and counties, as potential 00:15:43.200 --> 00:15:48.080 defendants, right? Or in this case, persons who 00:15:48.080 --> 00:15:51.639 could commit such a crime. Do they think counties 00:15:51.639 --> 00:15:54.220 and cities are actually intentionally committing? 00:15:55.019 --> 00:15:56.980 Environmental crimes, did they have examples 00:15:56.980 --> 00:16:00.080 of where a municipality or a county actually 00:16:00.080 --> 00:16:03.240 did something knowingly or intentionally that 00:16:03.240 --> 00:16:05.860 created a situation similar to the one that you 00:16:05.860 --> 00:16:10.700 described? I would not presume to speculate on 00:16:10.700 --> 00:16:14.299 the inner workings of the minds of folks that 00:16:14.299 --> 00:16:19.600 come up with some of these concepts. It is also, 00:16:19.759 --> 00:16:24.279 so it's unclear. I don't think that that is the 00:16:24.279 --> 00:16:31.860 case. And it seems as though I'll editorialize 00:16:31.860 --> 00:16:34.799 a little, but it seems as though there is a desire 00:16:34.799 --> 00:16:38.360 to hold people accountable if their employers 00:16:38.360 --> 00:16:42.759 are not providing sufficient oversight or, you 00:16:42.759 --> 00:16:44.559 know, if their employer is somehow responsible 00:16:44.559 --> 00:16:48.259 for those employees and their criminal acts, 00:16:48.340 --> 00:16:50.460 then they want to be able to hold that entity. 00:16:51.049 --> 00:16:55.809 accountable as well. I think that structurally, 00:16:55.990 --> 00:16:59.710 we do have some questions about what that looks 00:16:59.710 --> 00:17:04.490 like and how that would work and how you would 00:17:04.490 --> 00:17:09.170 determine whether that employer or entity knew 00:17:09.170 --> 00:17:11.930 what was happening. Were they turning a blind 00:17:11.930 --> 00:17:14.650 eye to that? That's a completely different case 00:17:14.650 --> 00:17:17.269 from just something where you may not know, right? 00:17:17.329 --> 00:17:20.420 Somebody may... decide to do something criminal 00:17:20.420 --> 00:17:24.119 and there may be you know you don't have any 00:17:24.119 --> 00:17:25.980 awareness of it such that you could have prevented 00:17:25.980 --> 00:17:28.119 or stopped them you know what's interesting is 00:17:28.119 --> 00:17:32.480 i think under the law in many cases where criminal 00:17:32.480 --> 00:17:36.900 activity is concerned defining an individual 00:17:36.900 --> 00:17:40.650 as a person right And even going as far as to 00:17:40.650 --> 00:17:44.549 say a corporation or an organization or whatever 00:17:44.549 --> 00:17:48.109 is also considered a person makes sense when 00:17:48.109 --> 00:17:50.029 you're talking about an accountability point 00:17:50.029 --> 00:17:53.269 of view. Because if the individual themselves, 00:17:53.829 --> 00:17:56.910 number one, commit the crime knowingly or on 00:17:56.910 --> 00:18:01.369 behalf of, say, their employer, then it makes 00:18:01.369 --> 00:18:03.250 a lot of sense to say, okay, we're not just going 00:18:03.250 --> 00:18:06.490 to hold you, the individual accountable who knowingly 00:18:06.490 --> 00:18:08.609 did something wrong. And you shouldn't have, 00:18:08.730 --> 00:18:11.509 right? But we're going to hold the person who 00:18:11.509 --> 00:18:14.289 told you to do it, instructed you to do it, turn 00:18:14.289 --> 00:18:17.210 a blind eye to it, whatever, accountable. Also, 00:18:17.210 --> 00:18:21.289 because that person probably has more resources, 00:18:21.369 --> 00:18:27.170 we can get more mitigation. Even where punitive 00:18:27.170 --> 00:18:29.349 damages or penalties are concerned, they're more 00:18:29.349 --> 00:18:33.609 likely to pay. But where a government is concerned, 00:18:33.809 --> 00:18:37.440 a city or a municipality, Ultimately, that responsibility, 00:18:37.779 --> 00:18:41.599 unless we're talking about jail time, individual 00:18:41.599 --> 00:18:45.420 jail time for, say, the employee or the person 00:18:45.420 --> 00:18:48.960 or the supervisor, or ultimately in the case 00:18:48.960 --> 00:18:54.259 of a city, the mayor, perhaps? A quorum of the 00:18:54.259 --> 00:18:57.779 elected body? Yeah, in the case of a county, 00:18:57.859 --> 00:19:02.019 the chair of the board of commissioners? I mean, 00:19:02.019 --> 00:19:03.880 I don't know. Unless you're talking about that 00:19:03.880 --> 00:19:07.819 jail time. The other part of it ultimately falls 00:19:07.819 --> 00:19:13.099 on the taxpayers of that municipality or county 00:19:13.099 --> 00:19:18.160 who are likely innocent completely. So it's kind 00:19:18.160 --> 00:19:24.880 of an interesting way to think about this when 00:19:24.880 --> 00:19:29.500 a bill defines a person as also a government 00:19:29.500 --> 00:19:33.279 entity. That is a bit of a stretch compared to 00:19:33.279 --> 00:19:37.250 most... criminal law, if I'm not mistaken. Now, 00:19:37.289 --> 00:19:41.349 I'm not a lawyer, but it seems like that would 00:19:41.349 --> 00:19:45.309 be kind of an anomaly. Is that true or not true? 00:19:45.450 --> 00:19:50.609 Or do you know? Yeah, I don't know. And one of 00:19:50.609 --> 00:19:52.549 the things that's sort of interesting here is 00:19:52.549 --> 00:19:57.210 we tend not to deal a whole lot with criminal 00:19:57.210 --> 00:20:04.920 law as lobbyists. So that's... I think the application 00:20:04.920 --> 00:20:07.220 of... Unless you're a lobbyist for attorneys 00:20:07.220 --> 00:20:10.180 or cops, right? And even those, like the bills 00:20:10.180 --> 00:20:12.779 that deal with that, I mean, there are some, 00:20:12.839 --> 00:20:16.680 but it doesn't feel like we're dealing a lot 00:20:16.680 --> 00:20:19.839 in this space in terms of what constitutes a 00:20:19.839 --> 00:20:23.640 crime. Maybe we are. I don't know. Not very often, 00:20:23.700 --> 00:20:29.480 I would agree. But the application of criminal 00:20:29.480 --> 00:20:35.599 law to... environmental violations, permit violations, 00:20:36.140 --> 00:20:41.720 ecology order violations, that is a different 00:20:41.720 --> 00:20:45.640 thing than we have seen before. I will say it's 00:20:45.640 --> 00:20:48.359 not the bill itself that is changing the definition 00:20:48.359 --> 00:20:51.839 of person, that is determining what class of 00:20:51.839 --> 00:20:55.940 individuals or entities are kind of swept up 00:20:55.940 --> 00:21:00.099 in this. The definition of person is actually... 00:21:00.380 --> 00:21:03.640 In those statutes that the bill is amending. 00:21:03.660 --> 00:21:05.559 So it's already in the Clean Water Act. It's 00:21:05.559 --> 00:21:07.680 already in the Clean Air Act. It's already in 00:21:07.680 --> 00:21:10.819 the hazardous waste statute. So these are federal 00:21:10.819 --> 00:21:13.789 laws. The Clean Water Act, the Clean Air Act. 00:21:13.950 --> 00:21:16.829 I mean, the state has its own version that builds 00:21:16.829 --> 00:21:20.410 upon that, right? And essentially implements 00:21:20.410 --> 00:21:22.589 and enforces those pieces. Are you talking about 00:21:22.589 --> 00:21:24.190 the state version or the federal version? Yeah, 00:21:24.250 --> 00:21:26.569 I should say I'm using those terms colloquially. 00:21:26.710 --> 00:21:29.650 So these are amending the state version, not 00:21:29.650 --> 00:21:32.369 the federal version. And so that's already in 00:21:32.369 --> 00:21:34.950 those statutes, is what you're saying, the whole 00:21:34.950 --> 00:21:39.160 definition of... a person can be a government 00:21:39.160 --> 00:21:41.460 entity in this particular case. Interesting. 00:21:41.480 --> 00:21:44.859 Well, ultimately, it'll fall back on the insurance 00:21:44.859 --> 00:21:47.839 companies that the government entity uses, but 00:21:47.839 --> 00:21:50.339 then the cost for carrying that insurance and 00:21:50.339 --> 00:21:53.420 the rate increases that go along with it, that's 00:21:53.420 --> 00:21:56.599 all going to come back to the taxpayer, which 00:21:56.599 --> 00:21:59.099 is kind of an interesting concept because that's 00:21:59.099 --> 00:22:03.259 really uninterested. independent, innocent third 00:22:03.259 --> 00:22:06.339 party in many of these cases. But it's neither 00:22:06.339 --> 00:22:13.359 here nor there, I guess. I also had another public 00:22:13.359 --> 00:22:18.839 sector client who passed along a permit application 00:22:18.839 --> 00:22:23.500 form that they sign on, I think, an annual basis 00:22:23.500 --> 00:22:27.019 for these ongoing permits, you know, NPDES type 00:22:27.019 --> 00:22:31.710 permits, National Pollutant Discharge. Elimination 00:22:31.710 --> 00:22:34.089 system? I believe so. Good job. Yeah, elimination 00:22:34.089 --> 00:22:35.730 system. That's a tough one. NPDES. It's late 00:22:35.730 --> 00:22:37.769 on Friday. It is. The fact that I'm getting these 00:22:37.769 --> 00:22:40.910 acronyms is a miracle. It's even after 5 o 'clock 00:22:40.910 --> 00:22:43.490 now. Extra points for you on that one, Kelsey. 00:22:43.509 --> 00:22:47.210 Extra points. Did you hear that, folks? So they 00:22:47.210 --> 00:22:50.869 are. Public entities are often submitting or 00:22:50.869 --> 00:22:54.089 resubmitting these permit applications, and there 00:22:54.089 --> 00:22:57.289 is a disclaimer on those applications that says 00:22:57.289 --> 00:23:02.390 everything that you are submitting is true to 00:23:02.390 --> 00:23:04.930 the best of your knowledge, that you recognize 00:23:04.930 --> 00:23:07.329 that if you are providing false information, 00:23:07.549 --> 00:23:13.369 that that is a crime. There's already some accountability 00:23:13.369 --> 00:23:18.259 built into the system. The folks who have put 00:23:18.259 --> 00:23:20.779 this bill forward are kind of aware of that and 00:23:20.779 --> 00:23:23.799 how front and center that is in these kinds of 00:23:23.799 --> 00:23:27.039 situations anyway. I don't know. And that's one 00:23:27.039 --> 00:23:28.400 of the things that I'm going to be exploring 00:23:28.400 --> 00:23:31.700 with the sponsors to just make sure that they 00:23:31.700 --> 00:23:35.119 are aware that for folks in our world that are 00:23:35.119 --> 00:23:39.119 working in spaces that may be influenced by these 00:23:39.119 --> 00:23:42.640 statutes, that they... They are confronted with 00:23:42.640 --> 00:23:45.279 their own accountability in the information that 00:23:45.279 --> 00:23:48.160 they provide and the actions that they undertake 00:23:48.160 --> 00:23:51.859 in accordance with these permits. So what's interesting 00:23:51.859 --> 00:23:54.299 about this bill and all the stuff that you just 00:23:54.299 --> 00:23:56.660 talked about is it's fairly complex, right? And 00:23:56.660 --> 00:24:01.319 as a zombie bill, I mean, it came out of nowhere 00:24:01.319 --> 00:24:06.039 without warning, like zombies often do. So be 00:24:06.039 --> 00:24:10.259 careful out there, folks. I don't know why I 00:24:10.259 --> 00:24:15.579 said that. Without warning, because you're going 00:24:15.579 --> 00:24:18.680 to say probably that it's a complex bill. I've 00:24:18.680 --> 00:24:22.000 probably watched too many zombie shows. But it 00:24:22.000 --> 00:24:25.119 is a complex bill. It hasn't even had a hearing, 00:24:25.259 --> 00:24:29.279 right? It came out of rules. This year. It came 00:24:29.279 --> 00:24:31.579 out of rules. I assume there was a new version 00:24:31.579 --> 00:24:34.759 that we didn't get to see beforehand. We didn't 00:24:34.759 --> 00:24:38.339 know. That version never got a hearing. voted 00:24:38.339 --> 00:24:41.539 on in the Senate. Now it's in the House. And 00:24:41.539 --> 00:24:46.779 literally, we are two weeks away from the next 00:24:46.779 --> 00:24:50.880 House of Origin. Or no, it's the final floor 00:24:50.880 --> 00:24:53.880 cutoff. And we're only, what, a week away from... 00:24:53.880 --> 00:24:56.819 We're less than a week away from policy cutoff, 00:24:56.859 --> 00:25:03.619 right? So, I mean... This sounds like an important 00:25:03.619 --> 00:25:05.759 bill. It sounds like a complex issue. It sounds 00:25:05.759 --> 00:25:08.480 like a pretty impactful one for local governments 00:25:08.480 --> 00:25:11.579 potentially. And now you're looking at a calendar 00:25:11.579 --> 00:25:14.480 of a week or a week and a half to do something 00:25:14.480 --> 00:25:18.599 about it. How often does that happen? Well, I 00:25:18.599 --> 00:25:21.660 don't know that I could speak specifically to 00:25:21.660 --> 00:25:24.599 how often, but there are, at least in my mind, 00:25:24.599 --> 00:25:27.420 a few different ways that a bill can become a 00:25:27.420 --> 00:25:33.089 zombie bill. A threat that becomes particularly 00:25:33.089 --> 00:25:35.930 acute in the late stages of session. Which is 00:25:35.930 --> 00:25:38.170 where we are. Which is where we are. So you see 00:25:38.170 --> 00:25:42.089 bills that may be, you know, were made some progress 00:25:42.089 --> 00:25:44.529 in the first year of a biennium, but then didn't 00:25:44.529 --> 00:25:46.490 make it all the way through. Again, they pop 00:25:46.490 --> 00:25:49.549 out either, you know, pop out in the last committee 00:25:49.549 --> 00:25:52.750 that they were in or they pop out of rules or 00:25:52.750 --> 00:25:55.329 they. Yeah. Or a probes or ways and means or 00:25:55.329 --> 00:25:58.690 whatever. And suddenly, boom, here we are back 00:25:58.690 --> 00:26:01.839 alive again. You also, you know, I'm sure you've 00:26:01.839 --> 00:26:04.259 talked a little bit about bills that are NTIB 00:26:04.259 --> 00:26:06.680 or necessary to implement the budget. Right. 00:26:06.779 --> 00:26:10.460 And for good reason sometimes. And then we also 00:26:10.460 --> 00:26:13.950 talk about the ones that. I just say get sprinkled 00:26:13.950 --> 00:26:16.450 with a little bit of majority party fairy dust. 00:26:18.049 --> 00:26:21.329 There is a creative explanation for how they 00:26:21.329 --> 00:26:23.269 are necessary to implement the budget, but that's 00:26:23.269 --> 00:26:25.430 another way that a bill that should otherwise 00:26:25.430 --> 00:26:28.349 be dead kind of comes back to life and, you know, 00:26:28.369 --> 00:26:31.130 continues on in the process. And then I would 00:26:31.130 --> 00:26:34.549 probably put like title only bills in that space 00:26:34.549 --> 00:26:37.369 too, where you've got something that somebody. 00:26:37.390 --> 00:26:39.470 So we've never talked about title only bills. 00:26:39.569 --> 00:26:44.140 I think. Boy, even with the Legislative Steering 00:26:44.140 --> 00:26:46.539 Committee, as far as I can remember, and certainly 00:26:46.539 --> 00:26:48.380 not on this podcast, explain to everybody what 00:26:48.380 --> 00:26:50.380 a title -only bill is. Well, I should say we 00:26:50.380 --> 00:26:54.000 haven't had much of that. There was one a couple 00:26:54.000 --> 00:26:57.000 of years ago. I would say, but not recently. 00:26:57.460 --> 00:27:00.680 Not very often. Somebody creates a bill that 00:27:00.680 --> 00:27:04.420 just has a title and kind of sets it aside should 00:27:04.420 --> 00:27:06.559 they need it later with the intention of being 00:27:06.559 --> 00:27:09.519 able to amend language onto it from another bill 00:27:09.519 --> 00:27:14.160 that maybe has died. So literally, just so people 00:27:14.160 --> 00:27:16.539 can get kind of a visual, if you were to look 00:27:16.539 --> 00:27:20.089 at a piece of paper. That's a normal intro sheet 00:27:20.089 --> 00:27:22.250 for a bill or the front sheet of a bill. It would 00:27:22.250 --> 00:27:25.329 just have the title on it. Nothing in the body, 00:27:25.410 --> 00:27:28.849 no sections, no nothing. Literally just a title. 00:27:29.329 --> 00:27:32.329 And the reason that's important is because... 00:27:32.329 --> 00:27:34.789 Well, why don't you tell people? Why is it important 00:27:34.789 --> 00:27:37.250 that there's a title on it? What is the significance 00:27:37.250 --> 00:27:42.069 of the title? In Washington, you are limited 00:27:42.069 --> 00:27:48.160 in terms of... single subject rule so you um 00:27:48.160 --> 00:27:51.740 you can't amend something onto a bill that has 00:27:51.740 --> 00:27:56.319 a title that doesn't encompass or yeah it doesn't 00:27:56.319 --> 00:27:58.980 fit to whatever that language is or that you're 00:27:58.980 --> 00:28:02.920 trying to amend onto it or um yeah that just 00:28:02.920 --> 00:28:05.119 doesn't that there's no similarity there so you 00:28:05.119 --> 00:28:09.579 have to have something that is that is similar 00:28:09.579 --> 00:28:13.829 enough that you can you know put whatever I'm 00:28:13.829 --> 00:28:16.190 not explaining this well. No, you are, actually. 00:28:16.289 --> 00:28:19.730 I mean, the point is the title's key, right? 00:28:19.910 --> 00:28:22.970 Because sometimes a bill can die, and it can 00:28:22.970 --> 00:28:25.230 get resurrected simply by becoming an amendment 00:28:25.230 --> 00:28:30.089 to another bill. So say I have a tax bill on 00:28:30.089 --> 00:28:32.849 housing. Let's just say I have a real estate 00:28:32.849 --> 00:28:35.470 tax bill, and there's another real estate tax 00:28:35.470 --> 00:28:37.269 bill that's a different real estate tax, but 00:28:37.269 --> 00:28:39.849 the title says real estate taxes, right? Well, 00:28:39.930 --> 00:28:42.859 boom. That's a prime candidate for me to revive 00:28:42.859 --> 00:28:45.779 my bill by simply amending it, getting someone 00:28:45.779 --> 00:28:48.640 to offer it as an amendment onto your bill or 00:28:48.640 --> 00:28:52.299 whoever's bill that is. So that title is really 00:28:52.299 --> 00:28:55.460 the key. That's kind of the first gatekeeper 00:28:55.460 --> 00:28:58.279 in whether an amendment is appropriate or not 00:28:58.279 --> 00:29:01.039 appropriate or whether it's in order or out of 00:29:01.039 --> 00:29:05.480 order, right? So when someone puts out a title 00:29:05.480 --> 00:29:09.440 -only bill, they obviously are doing it for... 00:29:09.740 --> 00:29:12.839 a reason. And that title usually gives you kind 00:29:12.839 --> 00:29:15.720 of a clue or two as to what that reason might 00:29:15.720 --> 00:29:20.910 be. And I think, you know, we haven't seen. Like 00:29:20.910 --> 00:29:22.829 I said, we haven't seen so much activity in title 00:29:22.829 --> 00:29:26.390 -only bills recently, but broad titles serve 00:29:26.390 --> 00:29:28.710 the same purpose, right? If you have a title 00:29:28.710 --> 00:29:32.690 that is fairly broad, so instead of saying, you 00:29:32.690 --> 00:29:35.470 know, it's not a real estate tax bill, it's a... 00:29:35.470 --> 00:29:38.710 Tax bill. It's a tax bill, or it's a tax bill 00:29:38.710 --> 00:29:41.789 that benefits local governments. Right. you can 00:29:41.789 --> 00:29:44.430 find a lot of things that could fit under that 00:29:44.430 --> 00:29:47.930 umbrella. Yeah, a bill, let's see, dealing with 00:29:47.930 --> 00:29:51.529 Washington's recreation economy, right? Very 00:29:51.529 --> 00:29:53.829 broad. You could put all kinds. You could put 00:29:53.829 --> 00:29:57.450 fishing in there or hiking or, you know, marketing 00:29:57.450 --> 00:30:02.029 related to camping or campgrounds. I mean, you 00:30:02.029 --> 00:30:04.309 could do a million things in a bill like that. 00:30:05.049 --> 00:30:10.670 So when you're thinking about titles, There's 00:30:10.670 --> 00:30:13.329 always, oftentimes, not always, but oftentimes 00:30:13.329 --> 00:30:16.730 there's some strategy there in the title itself, 00:30:16.789 --> 00:30:19.190 especially when you're talking about zombie bills 00:30:19.190 --> 00:30:21.329 potentially or you're talking about title -only 00:30:21.329 --> 00:30:23.430 bills or you're talking about amendments. So 00:30:23.430 --> 00:30:25.970 zombie bills can be recreated kind of the way 00:30:25.970 --> 00:30:28.509 that you mentioned, right? Because in the second 00:30:28.509 --> 00:30:31.470 half of a session, all bills that died in the 00:30:31.470 --> 00:30:34.460 first half are technically alive again. And so 00:30:34.460 --> 00:30:36.940 they can pop up like this bill did. Second half 00:30:36.940 --> 00:30:38.539 of the biennium. Yeah, in the second half of 00:30:38.539 --> 00:30:41.039 the biennium. And usually they do so late, like 00:30:41.039 --> 00:30:44.160 you mentioned, like this one did. And so now 00:30:44.160 --> 00:30:47.099 we're kind of in a bind on it. Bills can be considered 00:30:47.099 --> 00:30:50.599 necessary to implement the budget or even creatively. 00:30:50.700 --> 00:30:53.099 Made necessary to implement the budget. Right, 00:30:53.119 --> 00:30:55.920 or creatively. There's title -only bills. You 00:30:55.920 --> 00:30:57.940 can resurrect a bill by finding the right title 00:30:57.940 --> 00:31:00.380 and amending it to that bill. Are there other 00:31:00.380 --> 00:31:02.859 ways that zombie bills kind of appear? I don't 00:31:02.859 --> 00:31:06.799 know. I think that covers most of it. I was going 00:31:06.799 --> 00:31:09.220 to say, that's everything that I can think of. 00:31:09.880 --> 00:31:12.380 All that is to say... There are emergency measures, 00:31:12.559 --> 00:31:16.539 too. Yeah. That can, even after the deadlines 00:31:16.539 --> 00:31:19.160 have passed, if the legislature is still in session, 00:31:19.400 --> 00:31:21.779 those can come out of nowhere. We've seen those. 00:31:21.819 --> 00:31:24.859 We saw one a couple of years ago. If you remember... 00:31:24.859 --> 00:31:28.799 Boy, it was a long time ago, but it had to do 00:31:28.799 --> 00:31:32.539 with... like home insurance taxes or something 00:31:32.539 --> 00:31:35.500 like that, that it was one of those funding bills. 00:31:35.740 --> 00:31:37.779 It never ended up going anywhere, but I remember 00:31:37.779 --> 00:31:42.400 it was introduced really at the last minute pretty 00:31:42.400 --> 00:31:45.000 late in the session. But that one was considered, 00:31:45.079 --> 00:31:47.579 I think, an emergency as well because it was 00:31:47.579 --> 00:31:53.319 necessary to finance state expenses moving forward 00:31:53.319 --> 00:31:57.140 if they were to have actually passed it, which 00:31:57.140 --> 00:32:01.920 they didn't. Yeah. I mean, I think, you know, 00:32:01.920 --> 00:32:06.400 one question that comes up frequently for folks 00:32:06.400 --> 00:32:10.019 that aren't kind of immersed in this world is, 00:32:10.279 --> 00:32:12.859 you know, is something is this definitely dead? 00:32:13.519 --> 00:32:19.720 Right. Or is, you know, where is the certainty 00:32:19.720 --> 00:32:23.359 behind whatever has happened thus far? And I 00:32:23.359 --> 00:32:26.980 think it is important to remember that there. 00:32:27.950 --> 00:32:32.450 is almost no certainty that there are ways that 00:32:32.450 --> 00:32:35.970 you can try and work around the process. That's 00:32:35.970 --> 00:32:37.809 not true in every case, and it's not true with 00:32:37.809 --> 00:32:42.329 every bill, but there are a lot of creative ways 00:32:42.329 --> 00:32:44.569 that you can get around, whether it's a deadline 00:32:44.569 --> 00:32:50.869 or a vote that doesn't go your way. And I think 00:32:50.869 --> 00:32:54.630 that's especially true in the second half of 00:32:54.630 --> 00:32:57.920 the biennium. where we are right now because 00:32:57.920 --> 00:33:00.559 you've right now you've got over 3 000 pills 00:33:00.559 --> 00:33:03.500 to choose from technically right that are all 00:33:03.500 --> 00:33:06.980 sitting there most of which uh you know are still 00:33:06.980 --> 00:33:11.240 alive if it weren't for the deadlines that we've 00:33:11.240 --> 00:33:14.759 already seen so far and like like you said there's 00:33:14.759 --> 00:33:16.440 a lot of different ways to kind of work around 00:33:16.440 --> 00:33:18.720 those deadlines if if you can get creative enough 00:33:18.720 --> 00:33:21.059 and find the right vehicles and get the right 00:33:21.059 --> 00:33:23.140 support in the right places And a lot of those 00:33:23.140 --> 00:33:26.619 are sort of Hail Marys, right? You try the sort 00:33:26.619 --> 00:33:29.220 of typical route and the normal process and then 00:33:29.220 --> 00:33:32.599 you get to the end and, well, you got to keep 00:33:32.599 --> 00:33:35.220 trying things. So I think that's where a lot 00:33:35.220 --> 00:33:38.359 of that comes in. And for our part, a lot of 00:33:38.359 --> 00:33:41.420 it is playing defense against those, you know, 00:33:41.440 --> 00:33:47.180 very creative maneuvers because they do tend 00:33:47.180 --> 00:33:51.160 to be. because of the very nature that it's kind 00:33:51.160 --> 00:33:53.880 of a quick turn, a quick change, a quick, it 00:33:53.880 --> 00:33:56.200 is hard to respond to them. And it is hard to, 00:33:56.200 --> 00:33:59.079 you know, there's not as much time to figure 00:33:59.079 --> 00:34:01.799 out what are the implications of this thing that 00:34:01.799 --> 00:34:04.140 I'm proposing? What happens if this would, you 00:34:04.140 --> 00:34:06.220 know, would pass because everything is moving 00:34:06.220 --> 00:34:09.760 so fast. Have you ever had a zombie bill? Not 00:34:09.760 --> 00:34:12.260 when you were working against, but one that you 00:34:12.260 --> 00:34:19.460 were working for? No, although I had a conversation 00:34:19.460 --> 00:34:25.139 today with somebody about a bill that had died, 00:34:25.280 --> 00:34:28.340 and we were trying to think creatively about, 00:34:28.420 --> 00:34:30.579 is there a way to still get this done? Because, 00:34:30.579 --> 00:34:33.619 I mean, I think that's our job, right, is to 00:34:33.619 --> 00:34:37.599 kind of make sure you've exhausted every option 00:34:37.599 --> 00:34:43.380 before you give up, right? I think as lobbyists, 00:34:43.380 --> 00:34:47.320 we all... I used to joke, I still do I guess 00:34:47.320 --> 00:34:53.179 sometimes, that I am like cheerfully persistent, 00:34:53.539 --> 00:34:55.920 that that is one of the best qualities, right? 00:34:56.059 --> 00:34:58.039 You have to be if you're going to be a good lobbyist. 00:34:58.139 --> 00:35:00.260 And you just keep going. Yeah. And you just keep 00:35:00.260 --> 00:35:03.280 asking. And you just keep, you know. And so I 00:35:03.280 --> 00:35:04.860 think that's kind of the nature of the work, 00:35:04.960 --> 00:35:09.300 to not give up until there is nothing left to 00:35:09.300 --> 00:35:16.449 do. Right. I have. Tried to amend a bill over 00:35:16.449 --> 00:35:20.489 and over and over and over and tried to revive 00:35:20.489 --> 00:35:22.630 bills through amendments over and over and over 00:35:22.630 --> 00:35:25.849 and over throughout a session. But I've never 00:35:25.849 --> 00:35:29.050 actually gotten a zombie bill where I was successful. 00:35:29.550 --> 00:35:34.159 I've done the whole. I'm going title shopping, 00:35:34.280 --> 00:35:37.280 right? And I'm going to see what bills are still 00:35:37.280 --> 00:35:39.719 alive and how I can maybe take my bill and get 00:35:39.719 --> 00:35:42.420 it to glob onto this bill. And I've gotten as 00:35:42.420 --> 00:35:47.119 far as having someone agree to draft the amendment 00:35:47.119 --> 00:35:50.199 and propose it, but I've never actually... I've 00:35:50.199 --> 00:35:52.960 never had it take. I've thrown the Hail Mary 00:35:52.960 --> 00:35:55.280 pass, but no one's ever caught it in the end 00:35:55.280 --> 00:35:57.940 zone before. And that's why it's a Hail Mary. 00:35:58.079 --> 00:36:02.519 Yeah, it's tough. And there's always zombie bills 00:36:02.519 --> 00:36:05.380 every year. But when you think about it, there's 00:36:05.380 --> 00:36:07.539 usually only a couple. We've seen three this 00:36:07.539 --> 00:36:10.500 year at least out of over 3 ,000 bills, right? 00:36:10.579 --> 00:36:13.519 So you're talking 1 % that's out there. And I'm 00:36:13.519 --> 00:36:17.179 sure there's a lot more that have tried and failed, 00:36:17.400 --> 00:36:21.119 right? I would also say you should knock on this 00:36:21.119 --> 00:36:25.599 faux wood paneled desk here because... Knocking 00:36:25.599 --> 00:36:27.380 right now in case you can't hear it out there. 00:36:28.099 --> 00:36:30.719 Because we're not... Done yet. We're not done 00:36:30.719 --> 00:36:34.400 yet. That's absolutely true. So there's probably 00:36:34.400 --> 00:36:36.480 a couple more. I've had a couple that I'm working 00:36:36.480 --> 00:36:38.920 myself. The Voting Rights Act bills came back 00:36:38.920 --> 00:36:42.119 just out of nowhere. No hearing. They just popped 00:36:42.119 --> 00:36:45.340 out of appropriations, went for executive session, 00:36:45.639 --> 00:36:47.539 got to the floor and voted out of the House, 00:36:47.579 --> 00:36:49.139 and now they're in the Senate, and I had to testify 00:36:49.139 --> 00:36:53.900 on them today without any discussion at all between 00:36:53.900 --> 00:36:57.260 those who are advocating for that bill and those 00:36:57.260 --> 00:37:01.119 who have concerns like us. So it definitely happens. 00:37:01.480 --> 00:37:03.900 It happens with enough frequency that it has 00:37:03.900 --> 00:37:06.619 a name. But it's also rare enough that not everybody 00:37:06.619 --> 00:37:10.139 gets a chance or has the opportunity to have 00:37:10.139 --> 00:37:11.739 their bill become one of them. You know, one 00:37:11.739 --> 00:37:13.599 of the things that we talked about or that we 00:37:13.599 --> 00:37:16.039 haven't talked about that I just thought in my 00:37:16.039 --> 00:37:18.300 head that is another way for a bill to come back 00:37:18.300 --> 00:37:20.699 or to become kind of a zombie bill is in the 00:37:20.699 --> 00:37:24.019 budget in the form of a proviso. I don't know 00:37:24.019 --> 00:37:26.920 why we didn't think about that when we were talking 00:37:26.920 --> 00:37:28.659 and kind of listening. listing the different 00:37:28.659 --> 00:37:30.780 ways, but that's another way that it actually 00:37:30.780 --> 00:37:33.860 happens a lot more frequently where someone is, 00:37:33.960 --> 00:37:36.500 you know, takes at least parts of a bill and 00:37:36.500 --> 00:37:39.139 gets it inserted into the budget as a new requirement 00:37:39.139 --> 00:37:42.739 for a different type of funding or requires, 00:37:42.960 --> 00:37:45.139 you know, somebody to jump through a hoop now 00:37:45.139 --> 00:37:48.099 because they're in a different program that was 00:37:48.099 --> 00:37:49.860 created in the budget, et cetera. So that's also 00:37:49.860 --> 00:37:53.119 another way that people oftentimes are able to 00:37:53.119 --> 00:37:58.039 revive whatever policy proposal. they're working 00:37:58.039 --> 00:38:01.079 on and they weren't successful on. So you got 00:38:01.079 --> 00:38:02.659 to look out for that. Get a little money in the 00:38:02.659 --> 00:38:05.559 budget for an agency to start work on whatever 00:38:05.559 --> 00:38:08.800 your thing is. Yeah. Well, Kelsey, a super interesting 00:38:08.800 --> 00:38:13.079 conversation today. Zombies. Zombies. And it's 00:38:13.079 --> 00:38:15.619 not even the fall. We're going into the spring 00:38:15.619 --> 00:38:17.599 and we're talking about zombies. It feels a little 00:38:17.599 --> 00:38:19.579 weird. I know, but it also wouldn't have been 00:38:19.579 --> 00:38:23.400 appropriate in October. Why not? Because there's 00:38:23.400 --> 00:38:25.679 no session. Yeah. And no zombie bills. That's 00:38:25.679 --> 00:38:27.760 true. But there are, There's more zombies in 00:38:27.760 --> 00:38:30.900 October, at least on Halloween night. Hopefully 00:38:30.900 --> 00:38:33.420 at least as rare as zombie bills. Let's hope 00:38:33.420 --> 00:38:35.920 so. Let's hope so. Well, Kelsey, good to talk 00:38:35.920 --> 00:38:39.280 to you as always. I know we'll get a chance in 00:38:39.280 --> 00:38:41.980 the next few weeks to catch up with you again, 00:38:42.199 --> 00:38:44.920 but good luck as you navigate your way through 00:38:44.920 --> 00:38:46.960 the rest of the session. Thank you. You too. 00:38:47.079 --> 00:38:49.500 To our listeners out there and to our county 00:38:49.500 --> 00:38:51.440 commissioners especially and other elected officials, 00:38:51.559 --> 00:38:52.739 thanks for all the work that you do for your 00:38:52.739 --> 00:38:55.300 counties and your communities every day. We here 00:38:55.300 --> 00:38:58.000 at WOSAC are... Always in awe of your commitment 00:38:58.000 --> 00:39:01.320 and your energy and your dedication to the work. 00:39:01.619 --> 00:39:04.219 We hope you can join us for our next chat here 00:39:04.219 --> 00:39:06.159 at the County Connection podcast. Until then, 00:39:06.179 --> 00:39:10.880 take good care. Thanks for tuning in to County 00:39:10.880 --> 00:39:13.239 Connection. Stay in the loop by subscribing to 00:39:13.239 --> 00:39:15.420 us through your preferred podcasting app and 00:39:15.420 --> 00:39:18.039 following us on LinkedIn, Facebook, and Instagram. 00:39:18.280 --> 00:39:20.440 And don't forget to join The Hub, your go -to 00:39:20.440 --> 00:39:22.420 source for the latest news and updates from the 00:39:22.420 --> 00:39:24.880 Washington State Association of Counties. Until 00:39:24.880 --> 00:39:27.099 next time, stay connected and stay informed.