WEBVTT

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We are also champions. We are. You and I. We

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won legislative trivia Wednesday night in the

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Columbia Room in the legislative building under

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the Capitol Dome. It was like the miracle on

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ice, only it was on tile. I think it was carpeted.

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Is it carpeted? It was a miracle on carpet. And

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I want to shout out to all the other teams that

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made this possible by not being as good at it.

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They weren't even, yeah. You know, the interesting

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thing about that is. Not only did we win, and

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I hate to say this. No, that's a lie. I love

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to say this. Breach. We dominated. We dominated.

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Dominated. It wasn't even close. Welcome to County

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Connection. the official podcast of the Washington

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State Association of Counties, where we dive

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into the legislative issues shaping the future

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of our communities. From budgets to public safety,

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infrastructure to elections, we'll break down

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what's happening in Olympia and how it impacts

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counties from across the Evergreen State. Stay

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informed, stay engaged, and join us as we amplify

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the voice of Washington's 39 counties. Welcome

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to a really exciting episode of County Connections.

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Some would say the student has become the teacher.

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The guest has become the host. But most of you

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may have figured out by now that I am not Paul

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Jewell. I am Travis Dutton, Policy Coordinator

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here at the Washington State Association of Counties.

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And I have taken over the studio this afternoon

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to interview Paul Jewell. And today we're going

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to be talking about the legislative issues, the

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ins and outs, and what's happening surrounding

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it in Olympia. You look good in those headphones.

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They suit you. Thank you. You're welcome. Sorry,

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did I throw you off with that one? Well, do they

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match their good fit for the shape of my head?

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Does it make it look longer or squatty? You know,

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I don't know that I was going to go into that

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much detail. I was just trying to compliment

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you a little bit. Thank you. The way they sit

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squarely, it's really stunning. Well, I've been

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told my ears are... At the perfect level in my

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head. That could be true. Mostly, what is it

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called when one side's the same as the other?

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Symmetrical. Mostly symmetrical. Mostly symmetrical.

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Mostly symmetrical, which I'll take that, right?

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Yeah, for sure. So, do I need to redo the intro?

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No, I think you're good. I think it sounded good.

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I think the audience is going to like it. I think

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the audience right now is just... On the edge

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of their seats. I'm sure they are. Paul's not

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hosting. I know. Weird, right? This could be

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a train wreck. Well, I can tell you I'm on the

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edge of my seat because it's a little weird on

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this side of the table. It is. And also hearing

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it through these headphones. I'm starting to

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regret it already. That's all I'm saying. Oh,

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yeah. I'm surprised you even let it happen to

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begin with. But I'm here and it's going to be

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a fight to get me out of here. Now that you've

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got it, you're not giving it up. So, Paul Jewell.

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Yes, sir. Government Relations Director. Yes.

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We're here to talk about something pretty serious

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and something we've been working on for quite

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a few years. Yeah. House Bill 1960. Can you tell

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us a little bit about what this bill does? Yeah,

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well, House Bill 1960 is an interesting bill.

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It's one that I would say, you know, I think

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we can legitimately say. had its birth right

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here at WASAC. You know, it really started a

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couple of years ago when we found out that there

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was kind of this problem occurring in communities

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where... clean energy projects were being located.

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So by clean energy projects, I mean things like

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wind farms and solar farms. At the time, it was

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mostly wind farms, but solar farms seem to be

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kind of what's happening a lot more lately because

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the technology has gotten a lot better. I think

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the economics are better than they were in the

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past, and there's been a lot of incentives, federal

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incentives, grant programs, and things like that

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around solar. projects as well that weren't necessarily

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available in the past. Now, that being said,

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we know that there's new wind farms coming along

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too, right? But the list of future projects has,

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it seems like it's weighted more heavily on solar.

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It does. In the near future, as far as what's

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been proposed or what's being planned. So it

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does seem like it's increasing in. Yeah, I agree.

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I think that's right. So anyways, a couple of

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years ago, we started to hear from some of our

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members that had multiple projects in their counties.

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And not really new ones, but ones that had them

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for a while, like more than 10 years. We started

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to hear from them that they were noticing a pretty

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big tax issue that was occurring from those projects.

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And so we started kind of digging into it a little

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bit and doing some research. And we found out

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what's happening is there is a pretty significant

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tax issue in these communities. And it's a bad

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one for the communities. What's happening is...

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Well, let me explain this from kind of a legal

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point of view. And Travis, you know, you've helped

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with this. In fact, you wrote the research paper.

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Oh, that's right. For the most part. Don't act

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like you. Yeah. Well, I was reading it in preparation

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for this and I was like, this is good. I forgot.

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Yeah, this is really good. Who wrote this? You

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know, you did most of the writing in it. Right.

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And a lot of the research. But what we found

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out was the way these projects are taxed, they're

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actually taxed. both as real property and personal

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property, but the majority of the tax is actually

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from personal property because the majority of

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the value is in the equipment, whether it's,

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you know, the turbines themselves or the substations

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that they may own associated with it or the lines

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or the transmission, which of course is the lines,

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but other transmission apparatus. Or in the case

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of like solar, the solar panels, et cetera, right?

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So that's considered personal property. And even

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though it's affixed to the ground almost semi

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-permanently, like a house would be, with a poured

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foundation and a whole ball of wax, the state's

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tax laws actually allow them to classify it as

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personal property. So you're saying that 200

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foot tall... wind turbines yeah which you know

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the new ones are even bigger than that they're

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enormous yeah three four hundred feet tall so

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they're they're pretty well affixed i mean that

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thing if it wasn't well affixed would topple

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over right so yeah they're really stuck in there

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well you've been out there you've seen them i

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mean the bolts you know the leg bolts on those

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things are what three feet long maybe at least

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yeah they're huge uh and they're what are they

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maybe three inches around circumference i feel

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like i've seen bigger ones you've got those massive

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wrenches that yeah i mean they're really big

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so it takes a because you know the wind's blown

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and that thing is turning and you know you've

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got a hollow tube essentially sitting there right

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so it's got to be affixed to the ground so i

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mean it's secured there just as well as any house

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would be um but for whatever reason you know

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state law allows them to classify the majority

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of that stuff as personal property and the benefit

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to them is they get to depreciate that right,

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over time. It's just like any business that,

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you know, makes an investment in equipment or

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machinery or, you know, another major asset that's

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not considered real property. The benefit to

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them is that depreciation comes off their bottom

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line for taxes, right? So I can understand why

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a company would want that. What's also interesting,

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though, is because that makes up the majority

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of the value of the project, the real property,

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the actual ground itself is a pretty minor. And

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the value of that one really doesn't change that

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much. Many years ago, state law was changed in

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Washington to allow counties and other taxing

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districts where the projects locate to add both

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the real and the personal property to their tax

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rolls for value, which means that they can count

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it as new construction when the projects come

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online. Now, if you don't know a lot about property

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taxes, this might sound really confusing, but

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counties have... and all taxing districts within

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their jurisdictions, they have a set amount of

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property value that they tax. And that property

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value changes from year to year. And it changes

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both by just property values increasing or decreasing

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because of market rates, right? Comparable sales,

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et cetera. Or the whole size of their value increases

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when they get new construction. So think about

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like... a new neighborhood or a couple of new

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houses, or in this case, a wind farm or a solar

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farm that wasn't there before, that actually

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increases the overall taxable value of the property

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value. And it's really new money, so to speak,

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to those taxing districts. Is there... You mentioned

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a couple examples. Is there an example that is

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universal to counties around some big piece of...

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Yeah, a really good example would be just a housing

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development, right? Or maybe a factory. Maybe

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like Amazon, one of the ones that we see popping

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up all along, whether it's... i -90 or i -5 would

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be like an amazon distribution center right that's

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considered real property that building uh that

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dirt etc and it was you know in most cases it

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was just an open field before and now it's a

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big facility that generates a lot of income it

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generates a lot of jobs that sort of thing but

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it also adds value to the property in the area

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and it increases the revenue for local government

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and and that's that's you know hospital schools

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um fire districts, EMS, counties, cities, et

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cetera, right? So it's the whole gamut. So what

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you're saying, these renewable energy projects,

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wind projects, solar projects, they come into

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town, they have personal property value. Right.

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That means that that is new. property tax revenue

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right that county is getting that they weren't

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getting previously right is this happening in

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all counties or is this it's happening in every

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county where these projects are locating right

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and um obviously if it's a wind or a solar project

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you have to have a good wind resource or a good

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solar resource um and for some of these communities

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you know these projects were looked at in some

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ways as kind of a big economic boost you know

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there's There's a project that I'm aware of.

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When the project came online, it changed the

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property values so much because the property

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in the area was pretty low value, frankly. It

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wasn't irrigated farmland, that sort of stuff.

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It changed it so much that it took on, not only

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did it add a bunch of property tax revenue, it

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took on a bunch of the property tax revenue responsibility

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and other property taxpayers actually got a decrease.

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In their property tax bills. And they were excited

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about that. Yeah, that sounds awesome. Yeah.

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Well, I mean, who wouldn't want that, right?

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They even went as far as passing a new high school

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capital project bond. Based on the new revenue

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from the wind project. And the fact that they

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all saw these discounts in their property. They're

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like, oh, geez, we can afford a new high school.

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Well, the problem came along about a few years

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later. Because what happens with this. with these

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values is with the property, with the personal

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property, it depreciates at a pretty good clip.

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I think we figured, what, 4 % a year or something

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like that? About that, yeah. Yeah, so the trend

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line is almost, it's almost like a 45 -degree

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angle if you were looking at a chart, right,

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from year one to year 20, so to speak. And what

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happens is because it was added to the property

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tax rolls. Even though the depreciation could

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occur, and therefore, as the value of that project

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goes down, that project's responsibility for

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paying taxes actually decreases, these taxing

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districts all continue to collect the same amount

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or more because they can increase it by 1 % a

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year. And what happens is that... the difference

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between the depreciation and the reduced value

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and now the reduced tax burden that's being paid

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by the project and what needs to be collected

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by the local taxing districts that difference

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now falls on all of the other taxpayers so that's

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residents businesses yep everybody everybody

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else that's paying that tax yeah and it and you

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know when it when it happens in small increments

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year over year you don't notice it right away

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but after about 10 or 15 years goes by suddenly

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people are looking at their tax bills and they're

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going, what is going on here, right? My taxes

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are up 20, 30 % over the last four or five or

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six years. What happened to the, you know, 1

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% per year kind of maximum? And that was when,

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you know, we kind of had the aha moment and we

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started diving into this and we realized it is

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the tax shift that is occurring in these communities.

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That was what people were starting to notice.

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And so, you know, we came to the conclusion really

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quickly that it's a fact and unfortunately an

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inconvenient one in Washington state that if

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you live in a community where a clean energy

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project develops, you have fairly significant

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property tax increases. to look forward to in

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your future just for the privilege of hosting

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that project. And that just seemed like a bad

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outcome to us. And it's going to happen. It sounds

00:13:38.480 --> 00:13:40.919
like it's going to happen slowly. Maybe like

00:13:40.919 --> 00:13:42.840
the frog in the boiling water. Like it happens

00:13:42.840 --> 00:13:44.779
a little bit slower and then accumulates over.

00:13:45.629 --> 00:13:47.250
a certain amount of time, and then suddenly it's...

00:13:47.250 --> 00:13:48.909
Yeah, I think that's why it took a while to notice

00:13:48.909 --> 00:13:51.149
it. You know what I mean? I think that it just

00:13:51.149 --> 00:13:53.490
was kind of like you're saying, right? You know,

00:13:53.509 --> 00:13:56.370
just it's one degree per time. You know, one

00:13:56.370 --> 00:13:59.190
minute you're swimming around in this pot. The

00:13:59.190 --> 00:14:00.929
next minute you're like, man, this water's getting

00:14:00.929 --> 00:14:03.289
a little hot. And then the next minute, you know,

00:14:03.330 --> 00:14:06.789
you're a cooked frog. That's why I have a personal

00:14:06.789 --> 00:14:10.529
rule. Never get into a pot. Never. Under any

00:14:10.529 --> 00:14:13.490
circumstances. It's a life. I'll keep that in

00:14:13.490 --> 00:14:16.250
mind. So if I ever try to get you into a pot,

00:14:16.490 --> 00:14:20.769
you're not going. No. Yeah, you're shaking your

00:14:20.769 --> 00:14:22.690
head pretty hard right now. I wasn't born yesterday.

00:14:23.610 --> 00:14:28.230
Good to know. But yeah, so I mean, that's a problem,

00:14:28.289 --> 00:14:31.730
right? It's a big deal. It's growing. I'm a resident

00:14:31.730 --> 00:14:34.610
in one of these counties where, or in the district

00:14:34.610 --> 00:14:37.169
where this. clean energy, renewable energy project

00:14:37.169 --> 00:14:39.789
exists. How much am I saying? Did we ever get

00:14:39.789 --> 00:14:44.149
to a concrete number? What would be a way to

00:14:44.149 --> 00:14:47.129
describe the size of the increase or the impact

00:14:47.129 --> 00:14:49.370
of the increase on residents? Yeah, it's interesting.

00:14:49.470 --> 00:14:51.590
And it varies, right? It varies depending on

00:14:51.590 --> 00:14:55.289
where you're at, what size is the project, what

00:14:55.289 --> 00:14:58.289
are your property values now, how many people

00:14:58.289 --> 00:15:00.450
are sharing the load or the burden, et cetera.

00:15:00.809 --> 00:15:02.970
I can give you some examples of some things that

00:15:02.970 --> 00:15:06.549
we did check out. Now, In one county, the size

00:15:06.549 --> 00:15:09.129
of the project, it was a wind farm, was so great

00:15:09.129 --> 00:15:11.710
and so large. And the property values in the

00:15:11.710 --> 00:15:16.289
county were so small where the project located

00:15:16.289 --> 00:15:19.370
that it literally doubled the taxable value in

00:15:19.370 --> 00:15:22.450
the county, which means it doubled the potential

00:15:22.450 --> 00:15:26.070
revenue that was available. And it took on half

00:15:26.070 --> 00:15:30.350
of the burden. In other areas, it's a lot less

00:15:30.350 --> 00:15:35.360
significant, right? but then you have to think

00:15:35.360 --> 00:15:37.500
about whether you have one project, two projects,

00:15:37.659 --> 00:15:40.799
three projects. In Klickitat County, for instance,

00:15:40.899 --> 00:15:45.179
there are eight wind farms alone, right? So if

00:15:45.179 --> 00:15:47.399
you're seeing this impact from one project, imagine

00:15:47.399 --> 00:15:50.649
doing that times eight. Potentially. Now, that's

00:15:50.649 --> 00:15:53.210
not going to happen in most places because these

00:15:53.210 --> 00:15:56.309
projects are big and they go into different taxing

00:15:56.309 --> 00:15:58.769
districts. And it's really the taxing. It's really

00:15:58.769 --> 00:16:01.309
the residents in the taxing district that are

00:16:01.309 --> 00:16:04.269
most impacted. But the entire county is impacted

00:16:04.269 --> 00:16:06.789
at some level. And when you compound it with

00:16:06.789 --> 00:16:10.129
that many projects. You know, that's pretty significant.

00:16:10.289 --> 00:16:12.149
We did a little study. You'll remember this.

00:16:13.070 --> 00:16:15.769
We did a little study. We looked at a house in

00:16:15.769 --> 00:16:17.370
the little town of Kittitas. You remember this?

00:16:17.509 --> 00:16:21.750
Yes. And it wasn't a nice house. I mean, I don't

00:16:21.750 --> 00:16:23.830
want to – I shouldn't say it that way. It wasn't

00:16:23.830 --> 00:16:25.669
an expensive house, right? It was a very nice

00:16:25.669 --> 00:16:28.110
house. It was just a simple, if I remember, like

00:16:28.110 --> 00:16:30.379
a – three bedroom Rambler, right? I would have

00:16:30.379 --> 00:16:32.139
lived in it. It was a nice house. Yeah. Fairly

00:16:32.139 --> 00:16:34.100
new, you know, built within maybe the last 20

00:16:34.100 --> 00:16:37.779
years. It just wasn't anything super fancy, right?

00:16:37.860 --> 00:16:40.100
This was kind of your average everyday kind of

00:16:40.100 --> 00:16:43.580
house, you know, blue collar, probably, you know,

00:16:43.580 --> 00:16:47.720
a type of home. Doesn't have a central computer

00:16:47.720 --> 00:16:50.860
that talks to you. No, no, no, nothing like that.

00:16:50.940 --> 00:16:52.720
And I think it was, what was the value? Like

00:16:52.720 --> 00:16:55.519
300 ,000 or something like that. And we looked

00:16:55.519 --> 00:16:59.000
at, we were able to isolate. just the tax shift

00:16:59.000 --> 00:17:03.399
from the nearby wind farm in that area that had

00:17:03.399 --> 00:17:05.640
occurred that year. And it raised the property

00:17:05.640 --> 00:17:11.059
tax burden on just that $300 ,000 home in that

00:17:11.059 --> 00:17:14.180
little town of Kittitas in that one year by $500.

00:17:16.160 --> 00:17:21.299
500 bucks. In one year. In one year. just from

00:17:21.299 --> 00:17:23.559
the tax shift. That doesn't include the other

00:17:23.559 --> 00:17:26.460
taxes and the increases from, say, the schools

00:17:26.460 --> 00:17:30.099
or state schools or the road levy or the general

00:17:30.099 --> 00:17:32.000
fund levy or whatever that this person was paying.

00:17:32.140 --> 00:17:36.400
That's just from that project. Now, imagine compounding

00:17:36.400 --> 00:17:38.759
that year over year over year over year. What

00:17:38.759 --> 00:17:41.279
we have found is that over that 20 -year period,

00:17:41.339 --> 00:17:46.000
these projects shed 90 % of their tax burden

00:17:46.000 --> 00:17:51.730
onto everybody else. 90%. So that $500, I may

00:17:51.730 --> 00:17:55.329
not see that the first year. I may not notice

00:17:55.329 --> 00:17:57.470
that right away. Oh, well, yeah, and it's going

00:17:57.470 --> 00:18:00.569
to be a lot smaller, right? But it's that compounding.

00:18:00.569 --> 00:18:03.609
Over 20 years, incremental increases are where

00:18:03.609 --> 00:18:09.859
we get folks in trouble. Yep, yep. You can imagine

00:18:09.859 --> 00:18:13.740
when we found this, right, and we were able to

00:18:13.740 --> 00:18:17.339
kind of diagnose the problem, our members were

00:18:17.339 --> 00:18:19.359
pretty interested in trying to find ways to solve

00:18:19.359 --> 00:18:23.079
it. And so we put together, well, you put together

00:18:23.079 --> 00:18:25.460
a pretty good process a couple of years ago,

00:18:25.579 --> 00:18:27.920
right? Yeah. Yeah. And that was one of the things

00:18:27.920 --> 00:18:29.900
I wanted to talk a little bit about was, you

00:18:29.900 --> 00:18:32.700
know, we have a bill that's being considered

00:18:32.700 --> 00:18:34.940
in the legislature right now. Right. But that's

00:18:34.940 --> 00:18:37.619
not something that happens. Overnight. No, not

00:18:37.619 --> 00:18:40.539
by any means. I know I've been working on this

00:18:40.539 --> 00:18:44.079
project since I got here four years ago. I don't

00:18:44.079 --> 00:18:45.380
know how long I've been here now. I think that's

00:18:45.380 --> 00:18:48.400
right. Yeah. Holy cow. Yeah. It seems just like

00:18:48.400 --> 00:18:50.940
yesterday, doesn't it? Yeah. I thought I'd be

00:18:50.940 --> 00:18:55.720
better. So this doesn't happen overnight. And

00:18:55.720 --> 00:18:58.160
you've mentioned a couple of counties so far.

00:18:58.220 --> 00:19:00.740
You mentioned Kittitas County. You've mentioned

00:19:00.740 --> 00:19:04.200
Klickitat Valley County. And I know that there

00:19:04.200 --> 00:19:06.160
were a lot of counties that were involved in

00:19:06.160 --> 00:19:08.759
this process. But can you walk us through a little

00:19:08.759 --> 00:19:12.319
bit at a high level sort of, you know, we pulled

00:19:12.319 --> 00:19:16.079
in other states. We pulled in a huge number of

00:19:16.079 --> 00:19:18.279
partners because we wanted to make sure that

00:19:18.279 --> 00:19:21.400
the outcome of this project was something that

00:19:21.400 --> 00:19:26.269
we could say had been. approved or designed with

00:19:26.269 --> 00:19:29.470
a huge number of stakeholders involved. Can you

00:19:29.470 --> 00:19:31.369
walk us through some of the, you know, just sort

00:19:31.369 --> 00:19:33.990
of the high level steps? For sure. I mean, we

00:19:33.990 --> 00:19:37.809
started talking about this once we kind of diagnosed

00:19:37.809 --> 00:19:40.470
the problem, right? And then we really felt like

00:19:40.470 --> 00:19:42.650
we needed to kind of get it all. It's a complicated

00:19:42.650 --> 00:19:44.690
issue. Just trying to explain the property tax

00:19:44.690 --> 00:19:47.269
piece and having people understand how that works

00:19:47.269 --> 00:19:51.990
and then how these projects kind of are affecting.

00:19:52.759 --> 00:19:55.519
the property taxes on a local level is really,

00:19:55.579 --> 00:19:58.180
it's not easy, right? It's not easy for people

00:19:58.180 --> 00:20:00.420
to understand. And then they have to understand

00:20:00.420 --> 00:20:02.619
how the projects, there's two different types

00:20:02.619 --> 00:20:05.420
of assessments for these projects based on whether

00:20:05.420 --> 00:20:07.859
they're utility owned or they're developer owned,

00:20:07.920 --> 00:20:11.039
right? And that kind of complicates it. So we

00:20:11.039 --> 00:20:14.500
decided to get together and we put together a

00:20:14.500 --> 00:20:16.700
white paper essentially on the whole thing. And

00:20:16.700 --> 00:20:18.579
it's still on our website. You can see it today.

00:20:18.759 --> 00:20:20.779
It's a great, it's actually a really good piece.

00:20:22.720 --> 00:20:25.440
pretty much catalogs the whole problem from start

00:20:25.440 --> 00:20:28.019
to finish, and then even does some research on

00:20:28.019 --> 00:20:30.920
how this is handled in other states and some

00:20:30.920 --> 00:20:34.859
of the solutions to this problem that have been

00:20:34.859 --> 00:20:38.059
put in place in, say, New York or Oregon or Nevada

00:20:38.059 --> 00:20:41.240
or I think New Mexico and Texas. I mean, we looked

00:20:41.240 --> 00:20:42.480
at lots of different solutions. Yeah, I think

00:20:42.480 --> 00:20:46.180
we met with folks in Nebraska. And if anybody

00:20:46.180 --> 00:20:48.980
wants to see it, if you come to my house, the

00:20:48.980 --> 00:20:52.079
living room is each individual page of that room.

00:20:52.109 --> 00:20:55.569
framed on the wall. It does make amazing wall

00:20:55.569 --> 00:20:58.250
art. It is. The color scheme really worked well

00:20:58.250 --> 00:21:00.329
on the wall colors. Well, I mean, if you're going

00:21:00.329 --> 00:21:02.970
to work at WASAC, you might as well bring it

00:21:02.970 --> 00:21:04.589
into your life all the way around. That's what

00:21:04.589 --> 00:21:07.369
I said. Yeah. Bring WASAC into your life all

00:21:07.369 --> 00:21:11.069
the way around. I'm very sorry for you if you

00:21:11.069 --> 00:21:16.829
actually are using that for wall art. So we mentioned

00:21:16.829 --> 00:21:18.430
we reached out to a lot of different states.

00:21:18.730 --> 00:21:22.000
We interviewed a lot of different states. And

00:21:22.000 --> 00:21:24.019
if those folks are listening, thank you again.

00:21:24.160 --> 00:21:25.819
They spent a lot of time with us. They did. Really

00:21:25.819 --> 00:21:27.880
helping us understand. And it was great to meet

00:21:27.880 --> 00:21:31.740
them. And not only that, but when we started

00:21:31.740 --> 00:21:33.980
talking about this problem, a lot of them didn't

00:21:33.980 --> 00:21:36.980
know what we were talking about because their

00:21:36.980 --> 00:21:39.220
taxing structures are different. But others were

00:21:39.220 --> 00:21:41.819
like, oh, yeah, we totally get that. We know

00:21:41.819 --> 00:21:43.359
exactly what you're talking about. And that was

00:21:43.359 --> 00:21:46.509
really helpful, too. Yeah. So you also mentioned

00:21:46.509 --> 00:21:48.089
some of our members wanted to get involved. We

00:21:48.089 --> 00:21:50.170
ended up building a task force with some of our

00:21:50.170 --> 00:21:54.190
members. We also were fortunate enough to get

00:21:54.190 --> 00:21:56.910
some support and some involvement from the Washington

00:21:56.910 --> 00:21:59.309
Association of County Officials, some of the

00:21:59.309 --> 00:22:01.569
assessors and treasurers. Are there other key

00:22:01.569 --> 00:22:03.230
partners that you want to highlight? Yeah, well,

00:22:03.349 --> 00:22:06.470
Renewables Northwest joined us. The Department

00:22:06.470 --> 00:22:09.589
of Commerce joined us. I think Fish and Wildlife

00:22:09.589 --> 00:22:12.450
joined in for some of the talks. There were several

00:22:12.450 --> 00:22:15.250
legislators as well. One that ended up sticking

00:22:15.250 --> 00:22:17.950
with us all the way through, which is Representative

00:22:17.950 --> 00:22:24.329
Alex Rammel, who has worked really hard on this

00:22:24.329 --> 00:22:25.829
issue. And we'll talk about him in a little bit.

00:22:25.990 --> 00:22:28.970
But, you know, we had I don't even remember how

00:22:28.970 --> 00:22:30.630
many people were in those meetings, but 40 to

00:22:30.630 --> 00:22:33.569
50, I think, every time consistently. Yeah. And

00:22:33.569 --> 00:22:35.369
we went through a whole series of meetings through

00:22:35.369 --> 00:22:38.680
the summer and fall. to basically educate the

00:22:38.680 --> 00:22:41.859
group, right? So everybody had kind of a baseline

00:22:41.859 --> 00:22:45.700
level of knowledge, how the taxes worked, how

00:22:45.700 --> 00:22:49.160
these projects developed, how they were taxed,

00:22:49.160 --> 00:22:53.000
what was the cause of the problem. And then we

00:22:53.000 --> 00:22:54.680
did the research on the potential solutions,

00:22:54.859 --> 00:22:56.640
right? And talked with a bunch of different groups.

00:22:56.759 --> 00:23:00.599
And the recommendation from the group was actually

00:23:00.599 --> 00:23:03.339
to... Eliminate the property tax completely.

00:23:03.720 --> 00:23:07.759
Just get rid of it on these projects and replace

00:23:07.759 --> 00:23:12.359
it with what is called a nameplate capacity -based

00:23:12.359 --> 00:23:17.640
excise tax, which is a tax per megawatt rate,

00:23:17.779 --> 00:23:21.799
essentially. Nameplate capacity is the rating

00:23:21.799 --> 00:23:25.339
for a particular project on what its potential

00:23:25.339 --> 00:23:29.329
out... could be under ideal conditions, right?

00:23:29.410 --> 00:23:31.529
So that doesn't, it's not about what it produces,

00:23:31.569 --> 00:23:34.609
which may change. year to year yeah that well

00:23:34.609 --> 00:23:36.589
that could fluctuate from day to day day to day

00:23:36.589 --> 00:23:38.730
year to year just because who knows what wind

00:23:38.730 --> 00:23:40.609
is going to decide to do right so the name or

00:23:40.609 --> 00:23:43.750
sun or sun good point but the nameplate capacity

00:23:43.750 --> 00:23:46.150
is potential yeah so for instance if it were

00:23:46.150 --> 00:23:48.069
running you know for a wind farm right if it

00:23:48.069 --> 00:23:51.890
were running at uh its maximum you know efficiency

00:23:51.890 --> 00:23:55.470
24 7 or maybe it's maybe it's just during daylight

00:23:55.470 --> 00:23:58.289
hours i don't know but For a wind project, it's

00:23:58.289 --> 00:24:00.289
probably 24 -7. What is the possible output?

00:24:00.529 --> 00:24:02.430
And the reason we went with that is because every

00:24:02.430 --> 00:24:05.230
project has one. Every project has a nameplate

00:24:05.230 --> 00:24:07.910
capacity rating, and it doesn't change, right?

00:24:07.990 --> 00:24:10.289
Unless the project gets bigger or smaller, it

00:24:10.289 --> 00:24:11.789
doesn't change. And so it was an easy thing.

00:24:11.829 --> 00:24:13.849
You didn't have to audit it. You know, you didn't

00:24:13.849 --> 00:24:15.329
have to trust that someone was giving you the

00:24:15.329 --> 00:24:17.630
right numbers because there were examples out

00:24:17.630 --> 00:24:20.269
there that are production -based. taxes, right?

00:24:20.930 --> 00:24:24.329
You know, how many megawatts of energy did they

00:24:24.329 --> 00:24:27.109
produce and then a rate per megawatt. And then

00:24:27.109 --> 00:24:29.369
like you said, that varies. And so the other

00:24:29.369 --> 00:24:31.730
benefit of the nameplate capacity was it doesn't

00:24:31.730 --> 00:24:33.529
vary and it's just going to be really consistent,

00:24:33.589 --> 00:24:36.529
you know, year over year. Consistency was a huge

00:24:36.529 --> 00:24:38.970
goal for this project across the board. Consistent

00:24:38.970 --> 00:24:41.970
payments to counties, consistent payments by

00:24:41.970 --> 00:24:45.150
projects, consistent revenue for local taxing

00:24:45.150 --> 00:24:47.690
districts. So the nameplate capacity really fit

00:24:47.690 --> 00:24:50.640
the... Requirement that we put for ourselves

00:24:50.640 --> 00:24:57.579
and our partners. Okay. Right. So let's go back

00:24:57.579 --> 00:25:02.119
to Mr. Representative Alex Ramel. You mentioned

00:25:02.119 --> 00:25:05.380
that he was involved in the project pretty much

00:25:05.380 --> 00:25:08.220
from the beginning. Yes. And participated and

00:25:08.220 --> 00:25:11.200
engaged in conversations with us very regularly.

00:25:11.420 --> 00:25:14.460
How does he fit into where we are now with House

00:25:14.460 --> 00:25:20.210
Bill 1960 sitting in House rules waiting? with

00:25:20.210 --> 00:25:24.410
bated breath to move. Yeah. Where does Representative

00:25:24.410 --> 00:25:28.609
Rammel fit into this? Well, he actually is the

00:25:28.609 --> 00:25:32.710
prime sponsor of House Bill 1960. He introduced

00:25:32.710 --> 00:25:36.930
the bill last year and shepherded it as far as

00:25:36.930 --> 00:25:39.730
it could go last year and then picked it up this

00:25:39.730 --> 00:25:41.769
year. And he's helping us move it through the

00:25:41.769 --> 00:25:43.990
process again. It's one of his signature bills

00:25:43.990 --> 00:25:48.910
this session. He's been great to work with. We

00:25:48.910 --> 00:25:52.730
certainly are grateful. What's interesting about...

00:25:53.940 --> 00:25:56.720
Representative Rammel, his district isn't actually

00:25:56.720 --> 00:25:58.619
affected by this issue for the most part. I mean,

00:25:58.660 --> 00:26:00.660
they could be in the future because I know that

00:26:00.660 --> 00:26:02.799
battery storage is part of this bill as well.

00:26:03.680 --> 00:26:06.259
Battery storage is kind of a new kind of developing

00:26:06.259 --> 00:26:09.299
industry around clean energy. And battery storage

00:26:09.299 --> 00:26:11.920
is the drawer in my kitchen where I put all of

00:26:11.920 --> 00:26:15.160
the triple A's and double A's and just a hodgepodge

00:26:15.160 --> 00:26:16.940
of living or dead batteries. Yeah, for sure.

00:26:16.980 --> 00:26:18.940
In your kitchen, that's what it is. Yeah, okay.

00:26:18.980 --> 00:26:20.779
But that's not what we mean by it. So what is

00:26:20.779 --> 00:26:23.339
battery storage in this case? So, you know, one

00:26:23.339 --> 00:26:26.700
of the things about green energy like wind and

00:26:26.700 --> 00:26:35.009
solar is it's intermittent, right? natural gas

00:26:35.009 --> 00:26:38.369
or even coal, which are fossil fuel based or

00:26:38.369 --> 00:26:41.329
even hydropower where you can where the water

00:26:41.329 --> 00:26:43.150
is flowing constantly. Right. Or you can turn

00:26:43.150 --> 00:26:45.049
on the gas and it's burning constantly. Or you

00:26:45.049 --> 00:26:48.210
can, you know, run the coal through the plant

00:26:48.210 --> 00:26:49.890
and it's, you know, and it's burning constantly

00:26:49.890 --> 00:26:53.589
as well. And you can, you know, have the power

00:26:53.589 --> 00:26:55.950
to turn it on or turn it off. Wind and solar

00:26:55.950 --> 00:26:57.849
aren't like that. Right. I mean, when the wind

00:26:57.849 --> 00:26:59.789
is blowing, you're generating electricity. When

00:26:59.789 --> 00:27:01.670
the wind is not, you're not. It's kind of like.

00:27:02.329 --> 00:27:05.849
You know back in the 17th century when the only

00:27:05.849 --> 00:27:09.259
way you got across The globe was when the wind

00:27:09.259 --> 00:27:11.119
blew on the ocean. Otherwise, you're sitting

00:27:11.119 --> 00:27:13.740
still, right? Other than the tides themselves.

00:27:14.420 --> 00:27:18.200
So it's the same kind of concept with wind energy.

00:27:18.339 --> 00:27:20.140
When the wind's blowing, it's turning the turbines,

00:27:20.200 --> 00:27:23.119
which are generating the electricity that's delivering

00:27:23.119 --> 00:27:25.519
it to the grid. And if the wind's not blowing

00:27:25.519 --> 00:27:26.980
and the turbines aren't turning, then there's

00:27:26.980 --> 00:27:29.160
no energy coming from those projects. And if

00:27:29.160 --> 00:27:31.440
the sun's not shining, right, and it's the middle

00:27:31.440 --> 00:27:33.099
of the night, then those solar panels aren't

00:27:33.099 --> 00:27:35.829
producing either. The only way that you can really

00:27:35.829 --> 00:27:39.470
take that type of energy, right, and kind of

00:27:39.470 --> 00:27:43.509
smooth out the intermittent nature of it is to

00:27:43.509 --> 00:27:46.029
produce extra when you don't need it necessarily

00:27:46.029 --> 00:27:48.930
and store it in what are called these battery

00:27:48.930 --> 00:27:51.130
storage systems, right? And so it's a series

00:27:51.130 --> 00:27:54.609
of lithium -ion batteries essentially in these

00:27:54.609 --> 00:27:57.799
buildings where they, you know. store excess

00:27:57.799 --> 00:28:01.039
power that then becomes available when other

00:28:01.039 --> 00:28:03.039
power isn't available or when you have an excess

00:28:03.039 --> 00:28:04.859
load that you need to accommodate or whatever

00:28:04.859 --> 00:28:07.960
it may be. And so it's part of the whole kind

00:28:07.960 --> 00:28:12.599
of grid efficiency and flexibility system that

00:28:12.599 --> 00:28:14.700
we're trying to put together. Well, I was going

00:28:14.700 --> 00:28:16.160
to say in the Northwest, but I think it's probably

00:28:16.160 --> 00:28:18.779
everywhere. I think so. Yeah. So and just to

00:28:18.779 --> 00:28:22.930
be clear to the folks listening at home. I responsibly

00:28:22.930 --> 00:28:24.890
dispose of my batteries and don't just leave

00:28:24.890 --> 00:28:27.289
them stored in a drawer. Well, you know, batteries

00:28:27.289 --> 00:28:29.170
are inert anyways. It doesn't really matter.

00:28:30.349 --> 00:28:32.529
They're not the contaminant people thought they

00:28:32.529 --> 00:28:37.349
were. Another episode. We'll do another battery

00:28:37.349 --> 00:28:39.170
episode. The next time I interview, if this goes

00:28:39.170 --> 00:28:45.250
well. Well, alkaline batteries aren't the contaminant

00:28:45.250 --> 00:28:47.420
people thought they were. There's all kinds of

00:28:47.420 --> 00:28:49.480
new batteries now. And this is really, yeah,

00:28:49.559 --> 00:28:51.259
we're going to spin off in another direction.

00:28:51.259 --> 00:28:53.160
Yeah, I realized I took you in a very... Yeah,

00:28:53.160 --> 00:28:55.180
as the host, it's your job to bring me back.

00:28:55.299 --> 00:28:58.000
Well, I'm about to. This is... So yes, I led

00:28:58.000 --> 00:29:00.700
you pretty far astray. Let's go back really quickly.

00:29:00.720 --> 00:29:04.079
You were mentioning the bill sponsor, Representative

00:29:04.079 --> 00:29:07.680
Rammel, being from a district that may not be

00:29:07.680 --> 00:29:10.619
directly impacted by the experiences of having

00:29:10.619 --> 00:29:13.059
wind farms or solar farms in your community.

00:29:13.140 --> 00:29:15.950
Right. But our... entire states connected to

00:29:15.950 --> 00:29:17.890
these projects. Yeah, and I think he's got a

00:29:17.890 --> 00:29:21.230
passion for clean energy and climate change issues.

00:29:21.589 --> 00:29:24.750
And so he kind of grabbed onto this. And as a

00:29:24.750 --> 00:29:26.849
legislator, this is a tough one to grab onto

00:29:26.849 --> 00:29:30.750
because it's so complicated, right? And there's

00:29:30.750 --> 00:29:34.029
not a lot of, you know, there's no hero worship

00:29:34.029 --> 00:29:36.529
for the person who sponsors this bill, right?

00:29:36.690 --> 00:29:40.430
This is one of those. kind of nuts and bolts,

00:29:40.529 --> 00:29:44.349
technical pieces that are really, really important

00:29:44.349 --> 00:29:47.710
to the overall system. But there's just not a

00:29:47.710 --> 00:29:51.369
lot of glory for a legislator to be championing

00:29:51.369 --> 00:29:55.490
this kind of issue. So it just goes to show you

00:29:55.490 --> 00:29:57.089
that he's one that really cares about his job

00:29:57.089 --> 00:29:59.210
and about what he does. The other piece that's

00:29:59.210 --> 00:30:00.829
really interesting about Representative Rammel

00:30:00.829 --> 00:30:03.049
is I think he was a bit of a skeptic at first.

00:30:04.279 --> 00:30:07.319
And he sat with us through every one of those

00:30:07.319 --> 00:30:10.880
meetings. And I know he didn't want to at first

00:30:10.880 --> 00:30:14.400
either. You know, I don't want to speak for him,

00:30:14.460 --> 00:30:17.900
but my impression was he was there to kind of

00:30:17.900 --> 00:30:20.660
pay attention to what was going on. But, you

00:30:20.660 --> 00:30:24.099
know, was really thinking that he was going to

00:30:24.099 --> 00:30:25.859
try to push us in a different direction for whatever

00:30:25.859 --> 00:30:31.220
reason. He went through the process with all

00:30:31.220 --> 00:30:35.819
of us, and I think he really was impressed with

00:30:35.819 --> 00:30:39.160
the research that we did. And the conversations

00:30:39.160 --> 00:30:41.380
that we had with the stakeholders were just exceptional.

00:30:41.980 --> 00:30:44.299
The people that were there wanted to be there.

00:30:44.359 --> 00:30:46.700
They self -selected, right? And like you said,

00:30:46.779 --> 00:30:48.339
there were 40, 50 people at every single one

00:30:48.339 --> 00:30:50.400
of them. So the turnout by itself was impressive.

00:30:50.920 --> 00:30:53.000
Engaged people. Yeah, they were super engaged.

00:30:53.359 --> 00:30:56.019
And I think that impressed Representative Rammel

00:30:56.019 --> 00:30:58.839
and inspired him to... Go ahead and sponsor a

00:30:58.839 --> 00:31:02.559
bill. And he's been he's been dogged with it.

00:31:02.740 --> 00:31:04.599
You know, I think that's a good word with it.

00:31:04.779 --> 00:31:07.880
You know, he's been sifting through every complicated

00:31:07.880 --> 00:31:10.599
piece one at a time all the way through the process

00:31:10.599 --> 00:31:15.079
to get us to where we are today. So I want to

00:31:15.079 --> 00:31:16.700
talk a little bit more about you'd mentioned,

00:31:16.799 --> 00:31:20.200
you know, 40 to 50 people. We had this big process,

00:31:20.400 --> 00:31:22.400
including legislators, including Representative

00:31:22.400 --> 00:31:25.259
Rammel, walking through, educating everybody,

00:31:25.400 --> 00:31:27.630
making sure we all had. you know, foundational

00:31:27.630 --> 00:31:30.210
knowledge on shared knowledge of what was happening

00:31:30.210 --> 00:31:33.329
and what we needed to do to fix it. And we landed

00:31:33.329 --> 00:31:36.009
on a, on a solution, right? So we, we ended up

00:31:36.009 --> 00:31:38.430
landing on this nameplate capacity as a group

00:31:38.430 --> 00:31:42.289
with some other details, but I haven't been part

00:31:42.289 --> 00:31:46.329
of a work group where it is a, I'm picturing

00:31:46.329 --> 00:31:49.990
the, the four wizard of Oz characters, skipping

00:31:49.990 --> 00:31:54.029
arm and arm down the yellow brick road. The four

00:31:54.029 --> 00:31:56.200
characters. Do you mean like, Yeah, I didn't

00:31:56.200 --> 00:32:00.299
know what to... Dorothy, the Tidman, the Scarecrow,

00:32:00.299 --> 00:32:02.940
and the Lion. Yeah, I didn't want to waste podcast

00:32:02.940 --> 00:32:04.940
time listing them all. I figured people would

00:32:04.940 --> 00:32:10.220
get... Which one do you think you are? That's

00:32:10.220 --> 00:32:13.720
a good question. Yeah, because, I mean, you know,

00:32:13.740 --> 00:32:17.119
the Tidman doesn't have a heart, right? That's

00:32:17.119 --> 00:32:22.710
you. Was James Van Der Beek in The Wizard of

00:32:22.710 --> 00:32:25.390
Oz? I don't know. The Scarecrow. What does the

00:32:25.390 --> 00:32:29.450
Scarecrow not have? A brain? Oh, no brain. That's

00:32:29.450 --> 00:32:33.210
me. And then, of course, there's the lion with

00:32:33.210 --> 00:32:36.190
no courage. I don't know. I got to be honest

00:32:36.190 --> 00:32:38.390
with you. Dorothy's looking like the best one

00:32:38.390 --> 00:32:43.589
of the four to me. So this project was not an

00:32:43.589 --> 00:32:46.950
arm in arm hopping down the yellow brick road.

00:32:47.390 --> 00:32:49.390
just joyful. There were moments where the trees

00:32:49.390 --> 00:32:51.450
were throwing apples at us. Yeah, for sure. Talk

00:32:51.450 --> 00:32:56.750
about, you know, to get to a final, to get to

00:32:56.750 --> 00:32:58.589
a solution on a problem this big that involves

00:32:58.589 --> 00:33:01.089
this many stakeholders, a lot of compromises

00:33:01.089 --> 00:33:03.170
have to be made. A lot of things need to be removed.

00:33:03.490 --> 00:33:07.369
What are some of the biggest things that our

00:33:07.369 --> 00:33:10.059
members, that this work group... that Representative

00:33:10.059 --> 00:33:13.640
Rammel worked on through negotiations to make

00:33:13.640 --> 00:33:16.299
this bill still relevant and still something

00:33:16.299 --> 00:33:18.799
that we can support and get behind. Well, yeah,

00:33:18.799 --> 00:33:20.119
you know, I mean, you bring up an interesting

00:33:20.119 --> 00:33:24.240
point there because, you know, when we wrote

00:33:24.240 --> 00:33:26.720
the white paper and when we identified this issue,

00:33:26.799 --> 00:33:29.019
right, it was black and white to us. It was very

00:33:29.019 --> 00:33:31.019
clear we had the facts. And when I say it's a

00:33:31.019 --> 00:33:33.460
fact that if you live in a community where these

00:33:33.460 --> 00:33:36.599
projects are located under today's. taxing structure,

00:33:37.000 --> 00:33:39.720
you will see a property tax increase and that's

00:33:39.720 --> 00:33:41.319
what you have to look forward to. That's not

00:33:41.319 --> 00:33:46.539
untrue. That's 100 % true. It's a fact, right?

00:33:47.779 --> 00:33:50.920
There's no hyperbole there. But even that landed

00:33:50.920 --> 00:33:54.099
wrong with some people, right? And even our own

00:33:54.099 --> 00:33:57.539
members in some cases. If you remember, some

00:33:57.539 --> 00:34:00.619
people looked at our white paper and they said,

00:34:00.700 --> 00:34:02.910
oh, thank you for putting this white paper out.

00:34:03.069 --> 00:34:05.069
You know, we're going to use this to stop clean

00:34:05.069 --> 00:34:07.109
energy projects. We said, that's not what this

00:34:07.109 --> 00:34:08.949
white paper is about. This white paper is about

00:34:08.949 --> 00:34:12.250
a tax issue. Others said, why did you put this

00:34:12.250 --> 00:34:15.809
white paper out? You know, this is an anti -clean

00:34:15.809 --> 00:34:18.630
energy project white paper. No, this is not what

00:34:18.630 --> 00:34:21.570
this paper is about. This paper is about a tax

00:34:21.570 --> 00:34:25.349
issue, right? And so even within our own membership,

00:34:25.530 --> 00:34:27.869
there was some controversy. So then when we went

00:34:27.869 --> 00:34:29.909
out to the stakeholder group, it was... even

00:34:29.909 --> 00:34:32.150
more right and we intentionally included people

00:34:32.150 --> 00:34:35.829
who were pro right these are developers who want

00:34:36.190 --> 00:34:38.869
you know, to put these projects in. And we included

00:34:38.869 --> 00:34:41.389
people who were opposed, right? And we included

00:34:41.389 --> 00:34:43.530
environmentalists and we included state agency

00:34:43.530 --> 00:34:46.809
folks and county commissioners and county treasurers

00:34:46.809 --> 00:34:49.110
and assessors and the whole gamut so that we

00:34:49.110 --> 00:34:52.269
could get everybody at the table and start kind

00:34:52.269 --> 00:34:56.690
of sifting through some solutions. And the nameplate

00:34:56.690 --> 00:35:01.150
capacity tax was widely accepted as the best.

00:35:01.980 --> 00:35:04.099
solution, right? There were a lot. We looked

00:35:04.099 --> 00:35:06.699
at PILT programs. We looked at alternative property

00:35:06.699 --> 00:35:10.119
tax structures. We looked at alternative taxes,

00:35:10.320 --> 00:35:14.239
and it was the nameplate -based excise tax. Everyone

00:35:14.239 --> 00:35:16.519
agreed on that. Now, you think that's the end

00:35:16.519 --> 00:35:18.679
of it, but it's not. It's not? Not even close.

00:35:18.980 --> 00:35:20.460
What else was there? Well, there's just a million

00:35:20.460 --> 00:35:24.690
things. Look at you getting me all excited. I'm

00:35:24.690 --> 00:35:26.670
getting engaged. I know. There's just a million

00:35:26.670 --> 00:35:29.170
things to think about, right? What are the tax

00:35:29.170 --> 00:35:31.630
rates going to be? Who's going to collect the

00:35:31.630 --> 00:35:34.809
tax? How is it going to get collected? Are there

00:35:34.809 --> 00:35:36.690
other things that we should be thinking about

00:35:36.690 --> 00:35:40.809
as part of this? What do you do with the existing

00:35:40.809 --> 00:35:42.929
projects? What do you do with the new projects?

00:35:43.510 --> 00:35:45.329
Are they going to be different? Are they going

00:35:45.329 --> 00:35:47.329
to be the same? What about centrally assessed

00:35:47.329 --> 00:35:50.650
projects versus locally assessed projects? How

00:35:50.650 --> 00:35:52.949
do those work? How can you write a tax structure

00:35:52.949 --> 00:35:55.849
that, you know, new tax system that affects them

00:35:55.849 --> 00:35:58.949
both equally? Or can you? Just a million things

00:35:58.949 --> 00:36:02.449
that we had to think through, you know, and how

00:36:02.449 --> 00:36:05.690
do you define certain things, right, that you're

00:36:05.690 --> 00:36:07.610
going to include in the bill? And so we had to

00:36:07.610 --> 00:36:09.780
sit down and... you know, go through hardcore

00:36:09.780 --> 00:36:12.519
negotiations with a lot of different stakeholders.

00:36:12.679 --> 00:36:14.880
And, you know, as they got satisfied, they kind

00:36:14.880 --> 00:36:18.300
of dropped off. And then, you know, others remained.

00:36:18.480 --> 00:36:21.579
And, you know, we're still negotiating this bill

00:36:21.579 --> 00:36:26.320
even today on a few remaining points. I think

00:36:26.320 --> 00:36:29.440
one of the things that was surprising to me,

00:36:29.460 --> 00:36:31.340
or maybe not surprising, was with all of these

00:36:31.340 --> 00:36:34.219
stakeholders, like you mentioned, we wrote that

00:36:34.219 --> 00:36:37.039
white paper. It was all pretty black and white.

00:36:37.079 --> 00:36:38.760
It looked very direct as to what the problem

00:36:38.760 --> 00:36:40.519
and what a potential solution could look like.

00:36:40.539 --> 00:36:42.820
We went through a long process to make sure we

00:36:42.820 --> 00:36:45.840
had it right. I would say every single meeting,

00:36:45.920 --> 00:36:48.820
we learned something new from one of those stakeholders.

00:36:49.800 --> 00:36:52.460
Even up to last month, we're still learning new

00:36:52.460 --> 00:36:55.480
information that is helping us. We're still learning

00:36:55.480 --> 00:36:57.860
new information that's helping us perfect this

00:36:57.860 --> 00:37:03.670
bill. grateful for the opportunity to make sure

00:37:03.670 --> 00:37:05.449
that there's not some fact out there that we

00:37:05.449 --> 00:37:07.869
missed that would have undone all of this. But

00:37:07.869 --> 00:37:09.809
I think that feels like an important part of

00:37:09.809 --> 00:37:11.269
so many stakeholders is that they were there

00:37:11.269 --> 00:37:13.630
to not only advocate for their groups, but they

00:37:13.630 --> 00:37:15.630
were there to help continue educating everybody

00:37:15.630 --> 00:37:18.010
on why we needed to make certain adjustments

00:37:18.010 --> 00:37:20.389
to the bill. Yep. No, I think that's absolutely

00:37:20.389 --> 00:37:23.929
right. And the bill's come a long way. We've

00:37:23.929 --> 00:37:29.889
done a ton of work. We didn't get... What's in

00:37:29.889 --> 00:37:31.989
there now is not nearly what we hoped would be

00:37:31.989 --> 00:37:34.889
in there as far as tax rates. We wanted a much

00:37:34.889 --> 00:37:37.829
higher tax rate to get into the bill than is

00:37:37.829 --> 00:37:41.170
currently in there today. We did get some additional

00:37:41.170 --> 00:37:45.730
benefits for local governments, which is great.

00:37:45.929 --> 00:37:48.610
So if the bill passes and when the bill passes,

00:37:48.730 --> 00:37:51.250
there'll be an opportunity for the communities

00:37:51.250 --> 00:37:53.090
out there who are hosting the projects to no

00:37:53.090 --> 00:37:55.730
longer be negatively impacted, but actually to

00:37:55.730 --> 00:37:58.760
be. more positively impacted because they'll

00:37:58.760 --> 00:38:00.199
get additional benefits that they didn't have

00:38:00.199 --> 00:38:03.380
access to, which is good. But with every negotiation,

00:38:03.840 --> 00:38:07.119
there's give and take, right? I mean, I think

00:38:07.119 --> 00:38:10.000
accepting reduced rates moving forward for new

00:38:10.000 --> 00:38:12.320
projects was a bit of a tough pill to swallow,

00:38:12.519 --> 00:38:16.099
but there were some justifications for that that

00:38:16.099 --> 00:38:19.300
we were actually starting to see already kind

00:38:19.300 --> 00:38:21.260
of play into some of the new project estimates

00:38:21.260 --> 00:38:23.739
that were coming out. So we had to admit that

00:38:23.739 --> 00:38:26.320
those were probably legitimate. and kind of move

00:38:26.320 --> 00:38:34.480
forward. We had to make some exemptions and some

00:38:34.480 --> 00:38:37.480
tolerances for some things that we didn't necessarily

00:38:37.480 --> 00:38:41.480
want. But it's all part of the nature of the

00:38:41.480 --> 00:38:45.500
negotiation. You can never go into a negotiation

00:38:45.500 --> 00:38:48.199
thinking you're going to get everything. If you

00:38:48.199 --> 00:38:51.019
do, then it's usually not a very successful negotiation,

00:38:51.380 --> 00:38:54.250
right? But at the end of the day for us, One

00:38:54.250 --> 00:38:57.130
of our primary goals on the onset of this project

00:38:57.130 --> 00:38:59.489
was to eliminate that tax shift. Yes. And that

00:38:59.489 --> 00:39:02.110
still is what we are accomplishing. Yeah, that's

00:39:02.110 --> 00:39:06.530
the primary goal. We want to make sure our counties

00:39:06.530 --> 00:39:08.289
and their communities still receive the revenue

00:39:08.289 --> 00:39:11.570
that they should be receiving. But we want it

00:39:11.570 --> 00:39:13.369
to be done in a way that doesn't hurt the local

00:39:13.369 --> 00:39:16.309
taxpayer. You know, when you think about the

00:39:16.309 --> 00:39:19.969
potential damage that the shift... can cause.

00:39:20.130 --> 00:39:23.070
It's not just to the individual taxpayer themselves,

00:39:23.590 --> 00:39:27.690
right? If I'm paying more than I should be because

00:39:27.690 --> 00:39:30.010
I'm making up for someone else's burden, that

00:39:30.010 --> 00:39:32.969
hurts me personally and it's unfair. I think

00:39:32.969 --> 00:39:36.409
we can all agree on that. But there are other

00:39:36.409 --> 00:39:38.030
problems that come along with that, right? I

00:39:38.030 --> 00:39:40.909
mean, what if the schoolhouse in my district

00:39:40.909 --> 00:39:46.440
is falling down and is in bad in a bad state

00:39:46.440 --> 00:39:50.300
and needs major repair or replacement, and the

00:39:50.300 --> 00:39:51.840
school district doesn't have enough funding for

00:39:51.840 --> 00:39:53.380
that, they're going to come to the taxpayers

00:39:53.380 --> 00:39:56.920
for a bond, right? A capital bond. Well, if I'm

00:39:56.920 --> 00:39:59.659
already paying elevated property taxes because

00:39:59.659 --> 00:40:03.019
of these projects for something I didn't vote

00:40:03.019 --> 00:40:06.639
for, right? Something I didn't ask to be taxed

00:40:06.639 --> 00:40:08.780
for, and now the school comes along and says,

00:40:08.860 --> 00:40:12.260
hey, can you give me more money? receptive am

00:40:12.260 --> 00:40:14.639
I going to be to that sort of ask, right? Probably

00:40:14.639 --> 00:40:16.840
not very receptive at all. So it's got further

00:40:16.840 --> 00:40:19.900
reaching implications. Yeah, it certainly goes

00:40:19.900 --> 00:40:21.679
out in waves, right? You know, it could affect

00:40:21.679 --> 00:40:24.900
the ability for other really legitimate and very

00:40:24.900 --> 00:40:28.880
good government services like education, healthcare,

00:40:29.059 --> 00:40:31.199
and other things that are needed to be denied

00:40:31.199 --> 00:40:34.119
by the taxpayers because they're already tapped

00:40:34.119 --> 00:40:36.579
out on this other side, right? And the other

00:40:36.579 --> 00:40:39.949
problem is kind of the fundamental issue between

00:40:39.949 --> 00:40:43.369
urban and rural, the urban and rural divide that's

00:40:43.369 --> 00:40:45.449
very real here in Washington. And ironically,

00:40:45.630 --> 00:40:47.150
we had a great conversation, I don't know if

00:40:47.150 --> 00:40:49.829
you remember, with New York. And they were talking

00:40:49.829 --> 00:40:53.650
about the dynamics in New York. And it was eerie

00:40:53.650 --> 00:40:57.869
how similar they were to the dynamics in Washington,

00:40:57.949 --> 00:40:59.989
right? Because everybody thinks Washington State,

00:41:00.050 --> 00:41:02.789
they think Seattle, right? Big urban center,

00:41:03.030 --> 00:41:04.949
et cetera. What do you think about when you think

00:41:04.949 --> 00:41:11.349
New York? What? Yeah. Okay. Broadway. But where

00:41:11.349 --> 00:41:14.289
is Broadway? No, I think just, I actually just

00:41:14.289 --> 00:41:16.710
in my head assumed the whole state is just New

00:41:16.710 --> 00:41:19.530
York City. And then my father -in -law's from

00:41:19.530 --> 00:41:21.929
Buffalo. So I know that's there as well. Right.

00:41:22.010 --> 00:41:23.690
So like I said, it's just New York City and Buffalo.

00:41:23.730 --> 00:41:26.489
But there are large portions of New York that

00:41:26.489 --> 00:41:28.889
are not urban at all. They're rural. I mean,

00:41:28.909 --> 00:41:30.610
think of the Catskills. I would not have pictured

00:41:30.610 --> 00:41:32.710
any of New York to be rural. They grow apples

00:41:32.710 --> 00:41:36.059
in New York, right? Are we cool with that? Well,

00:41:36.239 --> 00:41:38.800
they were there first. I think ours are better,

00:41:38.920 --> 00:41:41.920
but they do grow apples in New York. So it's

00:41:41.920 --> 00:41:44.440
just, it's interesting. And they were kind of

00:41:44.440 --> 00:41:46.420
talking about how... Wait, is that why it's called

00:41:46.420 --> 00:41:51.380
the Big Apple? Ding, ding, ding, ding. Way to

00:41:51.380 --> 00:41:54.300
go, Travis. Holy cow. Hang on, I got to write

00:41:54.300 --> 00:41:59.199
that down. Now, I'm going to Google just to be

00:41:59.199 --> 00:42:02.219
sure that that's what it is. But I do know they

00:42:02.219 --> 00:42:04.320
grow apples, or at least they historically have

00:42:04.320 --> 00:42:06.199
grown apples in New York. Hey, Mitch, could you

00:42:06.199 --> 00:42:08.780
put in some, like... Waiting music? Like some

00:42:08.780 --> 00:42:10.420
Jeopardy music that we could listen to? I was

00:42:10.420 --> 00:42:16.559
going to talk while I did this. Anyways, hearing

00:42:16.559 --> 00:42:21.900
about all of that. Actually, no. It's called

00:42:21.900 --> 00:42:24.659
the Big Apple because 1920s horse racing reporters,

00:42:25.059 --> 00:42:28.559
notably John J. Fitzgerald, used the term to

00:42:28.559 --> 00:42:30.960
describe the city's prestigious racetracks as

00:42:30.960 --> 00:42:34.329
the top prize. It represented the ultimate big

00:42:34.329 --> 00:42:36.010
league destination. That's why it's called the

00:42:36.010 --> 00:42:37.650
Big Apple, not because they grew apples there.

00:42:37.789 --> 00:42:41.070
That makes no sense to me. But anyways, that'll

00:42:41.070 --> 00:42:43.010
be another... That feels like a letdown. We'll

00:42:43.010 --> 00:42:45.050
interview New York's Association of Counties

00:42:45.050 --> 00:42:46.030
on that in the future. That totally feels like

00:42:46.030 --> 00:42:50.650
a letdown. Yeah. Getting back, getting back full

00:42:50.650 --> 00:42:53.170
circle. We had a great conversation with our

00:42:53.170 --> 00:42:56.230
counterparts in New York. Yeah. And the dynamics

00:42:56.230 --> 00:42:58.289
there between, you know, kind of the urban and

00:42:58.289 --> 00:43:00.889
rural divide were really remarkably similar to

00:43:00.889 --> 00:43:03.090
what was happening in Washington state. And in

00:43:03.090 --> 00:43:05.369
Washington, a lot of the people in these rural

00:43:05.369 --> 00:43:07.230
areas where these projects are being located,

00:43:07.349 --> 00:43:08.969
if you listen to them and what they're saying,

00:43:09.130 --> 00:43:12.090
they feel imposed upon, right? They feel imposed

00:43:12.090 --> 00:43:16.829
that they didn't vote for the statewide policies.

00:43:17.190 --> 00:43:21.829
to reduce fossil fuels and increase our reliance

00:43:21.829 --> 00:43:24.690
on alternative energy sources like clean energy,

00:43:24.849 --> 00:43:27.289
like green energy projects. They didn't vote

00:43:27.289 --> 00:43:28.949
for those policies. They didn't believe in those

00:43:28.949 --> 00:43:30.690
policies. They didn't support those policies.

00:43:31.070 --> 00:43:34.349
Yet, where the projects are located is in their

00:43:34.349 --> 00:43:37.230
area, right? So it's affecting their access to

00:43:37.230 --> 00:43:39.489
land. It's affecting their view sheds, right?

00:43:39.570 --> 00:43:42.650
It's impacting their quality of life. And on

00:43:42.650 --> 00:43:47.150
top of that, they're paying more. for the privilege,

00:43:47.409 --> 00:43:52.550
right? So you can understand how that alone can

00:43:52.550 --> 00:43:57.469
exasperate that kind of political dichotomy,

00:43:57.550 --> 00:44:03.429
right, that exists. And so we need to address

00:44:03.429 --> 00:44:06.050
that, right? And we can address that through

00:44:06.050 --> 00:44:08.570
these solutions as well and kind of turn that

00:44:08.570 --> 00:44:10.969
around a little bit. One of the interesting things

00:44:10.969 --> 00:44:13.840
that I remember learning early on paired with

00:44:13.840 --> 00:44:16.159
that New York conversation. And that's not the

00:44:16.159 --> 00:44:19.119
fruit pair. I mean, like a pairing combined with

00:44:19.119 --> 00:44:21.639
the New York. I like a good wine pairing. Wine

00:44:21.639 --> 00:44:24.059
pairing? Yeah. Yeah, I do. I was trying to go

00:44:24.059 --> 00:44:27.260
with like some apple and then pair. I was going

00:44:27.260 --> 00:44:29.239
to see if I could work quince. I like a good

00:44:29.239 --> 00:44:31.079
beer pairing too, but I can tell you that's not

00:44:31.079 --> 00:44:33.559
going to happen in New York. Probably not. Not

00:44:33.559 --> 00:44:35.440
under any circumstances. But one of the other

00:44:35.440 --> 00:44:38.340
things I learned was that. New York, all the

00:44:38.340 --> 00:44:40.119
way across the country, very similar dynamics,

00:44:40.340 --> 00:44:42.559
very similar experiences around renewable energy

00:44:42.559 --> 00:44:44.699
projects that we were seeing here, yet across

00:44:44.699 --> 00:44:47.300
the Columbia River in Oregon. Completely different.

00:44:47.460 --> 00:44:50.199
It was completely flip -flopped. Right. The rural

00:44:50.199 --> 00:44:52.159
smaller counties on the east side of the state

00:44:52.159 --> 00:44:55.440
were driving. Even competing for these projects.

00:44:55.739 --> 00:44:58.480
Yeah. And that was because they just had a whole

00:44:58.480 --> 00:45:01.199
different framework for how they were taxing

00:45:01.199 --> 00:45:05.000
and how they required the projects to contribute

00:45:05.000 --> 00:45:07.179
benefits to the local economy that Washington

00:45:07.179 --> 00:45:09.500
doesn't. And there was a lot of things that came

00:45:09.500 --> 00:45:12.340
into play, right? Like just that there were a

00:45:12.340 --> 00:45:15.820
lot of. There were a lot of other things that

00:45:15.820 --> 00:45:19.340
played into the way Oregon approaches their clean

00:45:19.340 --> 00:45:21.760
energy projects, including a significant amount

00:45:21.760 --> 00:45:23.820
of infrastructure that already existed or access

00:45:23.820 --> 00:45:26.849
to some of that. transmission so there were a

00:45:26.849 --> 00:45:28.349
lot of there were a lot of reasons that it was

00:45:28.349 --> 00:45:30.809
different over there but yeah i mean but but

00:45:30.809 --> 00:45:33.090
a lot of those conditions exist here too right

00:45:33.090 --> 00:45:36.090
i mean we've got the bpa uh just like they do

00:45:36.090 --> 00:45:37.849
we've you know the columbia river system goes

00:45:37.849 --> 00:45:40.230
right between oregon and washington some of the

00:45:40.230 --> 00:45:42.650
major dams and but more of them are located you

00:45:42.650 --> 00:45:44.710
know on the washington in the central washington

00:45:44.710 --> 00:45:48.400
stem right and so I think they just made different

00:45:48.400 --> 00:45:51.940
choices at the outset when the industry started

00:45:51.940 --> 00:45:55.579
to develop in Oregon because they've got some

00:45:55.579 --> 00:45:57.440
requirements in place that when a project goes

00:45:57.440 --> 00:45:59.860
into a community, they actually have to negotiate

00:45:59.860 --> 00:46:03.199
local benefits. And that's not in place in Washington

00:46:03.199 --> 00:46:05.960
state. Now, their tax structure system is different

00:46:05.960 --> 00:46:08.940
too, right? Oregon doesn't have the high level

00:46:08.940 --> 00:46:11.239
of property taxes that we do. We depend way more

00:46:11.239 --> 00:46:14.000
on property taxes than Oregon does, but they

00:46:14.000 --> 00:46:16.570
have an income tax that we don't have. And that

00:46:16.570 --> 00:46:20.289
affects the wind farms too. So it's interesting

00:46:20.289 --> 00:46:22.349
to talk about those solutions and it's really

00:46:22.349 --> 00:46:24.230
interesting to see the difference in neighboring

00:46:24.230 --> 00:46:27.690
states, but it's also not apples to apples to

00:46:27.690 --> 00:46:32.369
get back to the whole apple analogy again, right?

00:46:32.449 --> 00:46:35.070
It's not because the systems aren't the same.

00:46:35.829 --> 00:46:39.360
So we've talked a lot about... how we got here.

00:46:39.440 --> 00:46:40.840
We've talked a lot about what's in the bill.

00:46:40.920 --> 00:46:43.500
I want to get into a little bit about what's

00:46:43.500 --> 00:46:45.699
next to wrap up our conversation, but is there

00:46:45.699 --> 00:46:48.340
anything else in the bill that you really want

00:46:48.340 --> 00:46:50.480
to highlight, even though we might see some changes

00:46:50.480 --> 00:46:53.820
even before the bill takes the next step, but

00:46:53.820 --> 00:46:56.119
are there any, any other bill details that you

00:46:56.119 --> 00:46:58.119
really want to make sure we highlight here? Well,

00:46:58.159 --> 00:47:00.960
I think, you know, The basics of the bill are

00:47:00.960 --> 00:47:04.179
kind of what we mentioned. It changes the property

00:47:04.179 --> 00:47:06.800
tax laws in Washington so that these projects

00:47:06.800 --> 00:47:10.380
moving forward, if they're clean energy projects,

00:47:10.460 --> 00:47:14.420
will not be part of property taxes in these communities.

00:47:14.699 --> 00:47:18.099
They'll be taxed under the nameplate capacity

00:47:18.099 --> 00:47:21.039
-based excise tax system. So they'll never have

00:47:21.039 --> 00:47:24.239
a chance to go on the tax rolls and that tax

00:47:24.239 --> 00:47:27.500
shift phenomenon that's occurring now will not

00:47:27.500 --> 00:47:29.699
happen. in the future. So that's a really good

00:47:29.699 --> 00:47:31.539
outcome. The other thing that's really important

00:47:31.539 --> 00:47:33.960
here, I think for local governments is there's

00:47:33.960 --> 00:47:35.980
both a, there's both a local share and a state

00:47:35.980 --> 00:47:38.719
share of, of the, of the, uh, nameplate capacity

00:47:38.719 --> 00:47:42.179
based excise tax. Local governments will have

00:47:42.179 --> 00:47:44.619
the opportunity to capture a significant portion,

00:47:44.699 --> 00:47:48.840
75 % of that state share, um, moving forward,

00:47:48.940 --> 00:47:50.519
which is a huge benefit to their communities

00:47:50.519 --> 00:47:52.480
that they wouldn't otherwise have. So that's

00:47:52.480 --> 00:47:55.920
a revenue. in addition to the county portion

00:47:55.920 --> 00:47:59.099
of those property taxes. Right. You said they

00:47:59.099 --> 00:48:00.860
have to meet certain conditions. Well, yeah,

00:48:00.860 --> 00:48:04.360
they'll have a chance to capture it. So for counties

00:48:04.360 --> 00:48:07.420
that already have projects, they don't have to

00:48:07.420 --> 00:48:10.960
do anything. You use that term grandfathered,

00:48:10.960 --> 00:48:13.179
right? They basically get an exemption from any

00:48:13.179 --> 00:48:16.480
other requirements, and they'll qualify to capture

00:48:16.480 --> 00:48:18.719
that revenue, which is good. It would be new

00:48:18.719 --> 00:48:23.300
money moving forward. For new projects, There

00:48:23.300 --> 00:48:26.119
will be a process. through the Department of

00:48:26.119 --> 00:48:28.579
Commerce to develop what's known as a model ordinance

00:48:28.579 --> 00:48:32.579
for land use and development codes that support

00:48:32.579 --> 00:48:35.679
development of these types of projects in different

00:48:35.679 --> 00:48:38.000
communities. And counties will have a say in

00:48:38.000 --> 00:48:41.059
that process, and it has to meet requirements

00:48:41.059 --> 00:48:44.139
under the GMA, the State's Growth Management

00:48:44.139 --> 00:48:47.719
Act. And once it's done, counties will have to

00:48:47.719 --> 00:48:50.980
adopt it or something similar to it and get certified

00:48:50.980 --> 00:48:53.000
by Commerce that they have that in place. And

00:48:53.000 --> 00:48:54.559
once that happens, then they'll be able to. able

00:48:54.559 --> 00:48:57.400
to capture that extra revenue as well. So you

00:48:57.400 --> 00:49:00.380
said the counties will have to adopt a model

00:49:00.380 --> 00:49:02.579
ordinance around some land use that supports

00:49:02.579 --> 00:49:07.139
clean energy. For somebody that has, I'm going

00:49:07.139 --> 00:49:09.000
to pretend like this is for somebody else, asking

00:49:09.000 --> 00:49:12.199
for a friend, what kind of things does a land

00:49:12.199 --> 00:49:14.400
use ordinance need to have to be supportive of

00:49:14.400 --> 00:49:16.820
clean energy or the opposite of that? If you're

00:49:16.820 --> 00:49:18.920
asking for a friend, let's be specific. What

00:49:18.920 --> 00:49:23.130
kind of rash is it and where is it located? Just

00:49:23.130 --> 00:49:25.230
joking. I'm just going to show you. No, no, no.

00:49:25.230 --> 00:49:31.909
Don't do that. No, it's not that bad. This is

00:49:31.909 --> 00:49:38.630
a family podcast. All right, moving on. So I'm

00:49:38.630 --> 00:49:47.000
sorry. I just couldn't resist. Okay. So just

00:49:47.000 --> 00:49:48.760
to be clear, you're not going to look at my rash?

00:49:48.960 --> 00:49:51.920
I'm not looking at your rash. Okay. But I will

00:49:51.920 --> 00:49:54.539
talk to you about the model ordinance. That actually

00:49:54.539 --> 00:49:56.800
seems more appropriate for the podcast than what

00:49:56.800 --> 00:49:58.380
our members want to know about. I'm sure it is.

00:49:59.639 --> 00:50:05.579
What was your question again? For somebody that's

00:50:05.579 --> 00:50:07.900
not necessarily familiar with what a land use

00:50:07.900 --> 00:50:11.610
ordinance that supports. the development of renewable

00:50:11.610 --> 00:50:14.090
energy, what kinds of things would or would not

00:50:14.090 --> 00:50:15.489
support? Like, what kinds of things does this

00:50:15.489 --> 00:50:17.840
need to have to be supportive or not? Yeah, well,

00:50:17.980 --> 00:50:20.760
so for a really good example, some of our counties

00:50:20.760 --> 00:50:22.920
just have moratoriums in place, right? Which

00:50:22.920 --> 00:50:25.820
means that they won't even accept an application,

00:50:26.079 --> 00:50:28.820
much less process it. So you have to automatically

00:50:28.820 --> 00:50:31.960
just go to FSEC, the Energy Facility Citing Evaluation

00:50:31.960 --> 00:50:34.440
Council, which we haven't talked about at all.

00:50:34.559 --> 00:50:37.300
But just for those who are listening, if you

00:50:37.300 --> 00:50:39.320
don't know what that is, it's a statewide permitting

00:50:39.320 --> 00:50:42.199
authority that has the ability to cite these

00:50:42.199 --> 00:50:44.260
facilities anywhere in Washington, regardless

00:50:44.260 --> 00:50:47.199
of the local permitting authority. or regardless

00:50:47.199 --> 00:50:50.739
of any other local or state laws. They basically

00:50:50.739 --> 00:50:53.920
are assumed to be in compliance with all local

00:50:53.920 --> 00:50:56.719
and state laws when they issue their permitting

00:50:56.719 --> 00:50:59.880
decision, even if they're not. Will FSEC look

00:50:59.880 --> 00:51:03.699
at my rash? That's not, I don't think that's

00:51:03.699 --> 00:51:06.699
within the agency's mission, but I have some

00:51:06.699 --> 00:51:08.380
contacts over there. I could give them to you

00:51:08.380 --> 00:51:12.969
and you could find out. That's the easiest example

00:51:12.969 --> 00:51:15.269
would be if you have a moratorium in place, obviously

00:51:15.269 --> 00:51:16.869
you're not going to meet the requirements of

00:51:16.869 --> 00:51:18.210
the model ordinance and you're not going to be

00:51:18.210 --> 00:51:20.949
able to get. you know, that revenue. But other

00:51:20.949 --> 00:51:24.090
things, you know, for instance, you know, if

00:51:24.090 --> 00:51:26.489
you zone areas that don't have, you know, if

00:51:26.489 --> 00:51:29.510
you zone areas to allow wind farms where there's

00:51:29.510 --> 00:51:31.670
no wind resource and you limit them to only those

00:51:31.670 --> 00:51:34.309
areas, that's what we call, you know, effectively

00:51:34.309 --> 00:51:37.909
zoning things out of, you know, the ability to

00:51:37.909 --> 00:51:39.869
be located in your, in your County. Right. Because

00:51:39.869 --> 00:51:42.010
the land that they can build on would not be

00:51:42.010 --> 00:51:43.889
something they would want to build on because

00:51:43.889 --> 00:51:46.670
it wouldn't give them any. So, so while, yeah,

00:51:46.730 --> 00:51:48.369
you've zoned for it, you have, wouldn't really

00:51:48.369 --> 00:51:51.690
zone for it right um or having setback requirements

00:51:51.690 --> 00:51:54.969
that are so onerous you know 10 miles from the

00:51:54.969 --> 00:51:57.590
nearest structure and there's you know nothing

00:51:57.590 --> 00:52:00.130
10 miles from the nearest structure where there's

00:52:00.130 --> 00:52:02.630
a wind or solar resource that's reasonable uh

00:52:02.630 --> 00:52:05.489
to you know try to build a facility to try to

00:52:05.489 --> 00:52:07.829
capture right so those sorts of things that would

00:52:07.829 --> 00:52:10.449
be considered those would be considered obstructive

00:52:10.449 --> 00:52:13.469
to this type of development versus something

00:52:13.469 --> 00:52:18.880
that is you know considered um uh conducive right

00:52:18.880 --> 00:52:21.269
that would allow this type of development would

00:52:21.269 --> 00:52:23.610
say okay you know these are areas where there's

00:52:23.610 --> 00:52:25.269
wind resource we're going to go ahead and zone

00:52:25.269 --> 00:52:28.250
for this type of facility here you know we're

00:52:28.250 --> 00:52:30.250
going to have reasonable setbacks that meet industry

00:52:30.250 --> 00:52:33.949
standards based on scientific you know data and

00:52:33.949 --> 00:52:39.050
research right we're going to allow you know

00:52:39.050 --> 00:52:42.670
mitigation or we're going to require mitigation

00:52:42.670 --> 00:52:46.170
that's reasonable that doesn't somehow make the

00:52:46.170 --> 00:52:49.369
project so cost prohibitive that it's essentially

00:52:49.369 --> 00:52:52.460
not It's essentially a no when it's not a no,

00:52:52.599 --> 00:52:55.920
right? Those sorts of things. So it's all those

00:52:55.920 --> 00:52:59.579
land use and development codes that local governments

00:52:59.579 --> 00:53:04.139
have authority over that they can use to either

00:53:04.139 --> 00:53:07.659
make it easier or make it harder for different

00:53:07.659 --> 00:53:09.659
types of projects to develop in their community.

00:53:09.800 --> 00:53:14.139
Some places don't want distribution facilities,

00:53:14.360 --> 00:53:17.000
right? And so they make it hard for you to build

00:53:17.000 --> 00:53:19.019
one there because their traffic requirements

00:53:19.019 --> 00:53:22.670
are so, you know um uh either traffic mitigation

00:53:22.670 --> 00:53:25.849
requirements are so onerous or you know where

00:53:25.849 --> 00:53:28.489
they decide you can put one is 30 miles away

00:53:28.489 --> 00:53:30.250
from the nearest interchange and that's not what

00:53:30.250 --> 00:53:32.090
you're looking for right that sort of stuff yeah

00:53:32.090 --> 00:53:34.710
okay where do you want to i want to make sure

00:53:34.710 --> 00:53:37.429
where i know we're running along um do you want

00:53:37.429 --> 00:53:40.889
to talk about any of the compromise stuff i was

00:53:40.889 --> 00:53:42.510
going to sort of shift to the bills in the house

00:53:42.510 --> 00:53:44.389
like talk about some of the next steps sort of

00:53:44.389 --> 00:53:46.170
what we want but do you want to talk focus on

00:53:46.170 --> 00:53:48.110
any of the well we could just kind of talk about

00:53:48.110 --> 00:53:49.929
where the bill is so right now it's in house

00:53:49.929 --> 00:53:53.869
rules um and we're hearing that it's likely to

00:53:53.869 --> 00:53:56.829
get voted out of the house this weekend so if

00:53:56.829 --> 00:53:59.010
it's in house rules that means it's already passed

00:53:59.010 --> 00:54:01.800
out of This one was introduced in House Finance.

00:54:03.460 --> 00:54:05.980
It started in House Finance. It went to Appropriations,

00:54:05.980 --> 00:54:09.440
and it was voted out of Appropriations on the

00:54:09.440 --> 00:54:12.579
House side. So here we are right up against the

00:54:12.579 --> 00:54:15.880
deadline for House of Origin floor cutoff on

00:54:15.880 --> 00:54:19.460
Tuesday. So we're trying to get it through. We've

00:54:19.460 --> 00:54:22.659
run into a couple snags lately, but Representative

00:54:22.659 --> 00:54:25.239
Rammel says he's still willing to move it out

00:54:25.239 --> 00:54:27.960
of the House. And then once that happens, hopefully

00:54:27.960 --> 00:54:29.619
this weekend, we'll have to do it all again.

00:54:29.639 --> 00:54:32.300
again, over in the Senate, but only in a much

00:54:32.300 --> 00:54:34.519
shorter period of time, right? A lot of pressure

00:54:34.519 --> 00:54:39.039
to try to get it moved. The issues that we have

00:54:39.039 --> 00:54:42.079
to deal with right now are, we've kind of lost

00:54:42.079 --> 00:54:45.159
support from some of our stakeholders. I think

00:54:45.159 --> 00:54:48.579
unfairly, frankly, because I feel like we've...

00:54:48.750 --> 00:54:51.889
compromised quite a bit. And we've agreed to

00:54:51.889 --> 00:54:54.769
quite a few concessions on this bill, much more,

00:54:54.829 --> 00:54:57.909
in my opinion, than the other stakeholders have.

00:54:58.130 --> 00:55:01.090
What would you say the top one or two concessions

00:55:01.090 --> 00:55:03.380
that you feel? Well, I mean, the rates, first

00:55:03.380 --> 00:55:06.000
of all, you know, we wanted rates similar to

00:55:06.000 --> 00:55:07.780
what we have in place today, which were right

00:55:07.780 --> 00:55:09.599
around, you know, $7 ,000 to $8 ,000 for wind

00:55:09.599 --> 00:55:11.420
farms. And I think the rate that was agreed to

00:55:11.420 --> 00:55:15.219
was just over $4 ,000 megawatt hour for wind

00:55:15.219 --> 00:55:17.380
farms. So that's a pretty big haircut. So that

00:55:17.380 --> 00:55:18.920
rate just, I know you said it all there, but

00:55:18.920 --> 00:55:20.780
just to be clear, that rate is the amount that's

00:55:20.780 --> 00:55:22.840
charged per megawatt. Per megawatt, yeah. That

00:55:22.840 --> 00:55:24.679
it potentially could produce. Exactly. Okay.

00:55:25.159 --> 00:55:30.409
Exactly. You know, and... There were quite a

00:55:30.409 --> 00:55:32.530
few other things that we had to compromise on

00:55:32.530 --> 00:55:36.110
in order to get agreement, the rates being one

00:55:36.110 --> 00:55:38.789
of the big pieces. But there were other things

00:55:38.789 --> 00:55:42.969
like the length of the project term, when they

00:55:42.969 --> 00:55:46.389
would convert. We wanted this to affect all projects,

00:55:46.429 --> 00:55:48.690
including the existing ones, so that the tax

00:55:48.690 --> 00:55:53.389
shift would stop. We agreed to let existing projects

00:55:53.389 --> 00:55:56.750
kind of continue on in their current situation

00:55:56.750 --> 00:56:00.239
until... they repowered or aged out, which means

00:56:00.239 --> 00:56:02.599
it's still going to affect those taxpayers for

00:56:02.599 --> 00:56:05.780
a few years out there. But at some point in the

00:56:05.780 --> 00:56:09.440
future, that will stop. That wasn't the scenario

00:56:09.440 --> 00:56:11.619
we were hoping for, but it was something that

00:56:11.619 --> 00:56:13.739
we settled on. So there were quite a few things

00:56:13.739 --> 00:56:16.730
that we had to kind of... take a step back from

00:56:16.730 --> 00:56:20.710
and say, okay, how can we get to an agreement

00:56:20.710 --> 00:56:23.289
here? And I feel like we did a lot of that work

00:56:23.289 --> 00:56:26.110
and worked really hard. And it feels like right

00:56:26.110 --> 00:56:27.849
now, to be honest with you, it feels like the

00:56:27.849 --> 00:56:30.989
goalposts are moving a little bit on the other

00:56:30.989 --> 00:56:32.929
side. And that's a little frustrating. It also

00:56:32.929 --> 00:56:35.250
feels like if one group throws a wrench into

00:56:35.250 --> 00:56:37.590
the whole system, it sort of undoes a lot of...

00:56:37.880 --> 00:56:40.420
Where everybody else was right. One person changes

00:56:40.420 --> 00:56:42.719
their mind. One stakeholder changes their mind

00:56:42.719 --> 00:56:45.800
and ask for a change, which then unravels a lot

00:56:45.800 --> 00:56:47.920
of the work that other stakeholders have done

00:56:47.920 --> 00:56:49.739
in negotiating with us as well. Right. Yeah.

00:56:49.780 --> 00:56:51.280
And that's always, you know, whenever you have

00:56:51.280 --> 00:56:55.159
multiple. parties in a negotiation or a lot of

00:56:55.159 --> 00:56:56.480
different groups that are potentially affected

00:56:56.480 --> 00:56:59.260
by legislation, that's always a risk. You know,

00:56:59.260 --> 00:57:02.619
you hope that people, you know, that have been

00:57:02.619 --> 00:57:05.199
at the table, you know, don't take advantage

00:57:05.199 --> 00:57:07.980
of that as an opportunity to, you know, back

00:57:07.980 --> 00:57:10.199
away or regress, but sometimes that doesn't happen.

00:57:10.460 --> 00:57:14.840
Okay. So it's sitting in rules. You said hopefully

00:57:14.840 --> 00:57:16.860
this weekend it'll move out of rules and then

00:57:16.860 --> 00:57:20.250
it'll move over to the Senate. Yep. I know we've

00:57:20.250 --> 00:57:22.650
created a—well, Tyler has created a really great

00:57:22.650 --> 00:57:24.670
one -pager that we're going to be using to work

00:57:24.670 --> 00:57:27.289
doors and try and get some support around moving

00:57:27.289 --> 00:57:31.130
it out of House rules, encouraging the state

00:57:31.130 --> 00:57:34.250
representatives to bring it up, discuss it, and

00:57:34.250 --> 00:57:37.690
move it forward. Just because we know probably

00:57:37.690 --> 00:57:41.869
all of the senators are listening, we really

00:57:41.869 --> 00:57:44.849
hope—I'm not going to say it's a guarantee, but

00:57:44.849 --> 00:57:46.489
we really hope that this bill moves over to the

00:57:46.489 --> 00:57:48.860
Senate. What would you want to say right now

00:57:48.860 --> 00:57:52.000
to any senator listening, knowing that this bill

00:57:52.000 --> 00:57:55.000
is likely heading their way and we want them

00:57:55.000 --> 00:57:58.099
to keep moving it forward? What would you say

00:57:58.099 --> 00:58:00.500
to a senator that's just about to have this bill

00:58:00.500 --> 00:58:03.099
come over to their committee? Well, I'd like

00:58:03.099 --> 00:58:04.679
to sit down and have a conversation with them.

00:58:04.940 --> 00:58:06.880
That's for sure, because it's a it's a complex

00:58:06.880 --> 00:58:10.760
bill. But, you know, for the most part, you know,

00:58:10.780 --> 00:58:12.000
I'd want them to know it's been well worked,

00:58:12.079 --> 00:58:14.860
that this is not something that we just developed

00:58:14.860 --> 00:58:16.940
overnight or even this year. You know, we this

00:58:16.940 --> 00:58:19.519
has been a four year process from start to finish.

00:58:19.760 --> 00:58:22.440
And that's that's a well worked piece of legislation.

00:58:22.920 --> 00:58:25.260
That's something that that, you know, has had

00:58:25.260 --> 00:58:27.730
a lot of seasoning to. And I think that's what

00:58:27.730 --> 00:58:30.710
a lot of legislators look for when they see a

00:58:30.710 --> 00:58:32.650
complicated issue like this, right? They don't

00:58:32.650 --> 00:58:34.530
want something that's just a flash in the pan

00:58:34.530 --> 00:58:38.590
that suddenly somebody hatched up overnight that's

00:58:38.590 --> 00:58:40.530
going to have all kinds of unintended consequences.

00:58:40.849 --> 00:58:42.469
I think this is one that we've really, really,

00:58:42.489 --> 00:58:43.989
really thought through. It's a well -aged steak,

00:58:44.190 --> 00:58:48.449
right? Yeah, I mean. You said seasoned. Yeah,

00:58:48.530 --> 00:58:51.010
there's a limit to aging your meat. You know

00:58:51.010 --> 00:58:54.469
what I mean? You don't want to go too far on

00:58:54.469 --> 00:58:56.070
that. Yeah, no, three years we've been working.

00:58:56.110 --> 00:58:57.670
Working on this at least three years. I don't

00:58:57.670 --> 00:58:59.269
know how long you dry age a steak, but I feel

00:58:59.269 --> 00:59:00.789
like three years is way too long. It's probably

00:59:00.789 --> 00:59:03.670
a little too long. Okay. All right. But, yeah,

00:59:03.769 --> 00:59:07.409
I mean, so I hope they're looking for that. And

00:59:07.409 --> 00:59:11.050
if they have questions about it, you know, certainly

00:59:11.050 --> 00:59:12.789
I hope that they reach out to you or they reach

00:59:12.789 --> 00:59:15.769
out to me so that we can give them or Representative

00:59:15.769 --> 00:59:17.710
Rammel, for that matter, so we can give them,

00:59:17.710 --> 00:59:19.809
you know, the real information and the facts.

00:59:20.489 --> 00:59:22.510
And I hope that they see this as a benefit to

00:59:22.510 --> 00:59:24.250
their community, no matter what side of this

00:59:24.250 --> 00:59:27.670
issue you're on. Right. If you're clean, if you're

00:59:27.670 --> 00:59:30.840
pro clean energy or if. if you're, you know,

00:59:30.840 --> 00:59:33.179
anti -clean energy and a climate denier, right?

00:59:33.920 --> 00:59:37.070
You know, it doesn't. it really doesn't matter

00:59:37.070 --> 00:59:39.989
because this is a tax issue. And it's about making

00:59:39.989 --> 00:59:42.250
it right for the people who live in these communities

00:59:42.250 --> 00:59:45.150
and who are hosting these projects. There is

00:59:45.150 --> 00:59:47.329
no other situation that I can think of in our

00:59:47.329 --> 00:59:51.269
tax laws that creates this type of situation

00:59:51.269 --> 00:59:54.530
where it puts such a burden on the local taxpayer

00:59:54.530 --> 00:59:57.909
in such an unfair way. And I hope that's what

00:59:57.909 --> 01:00:00.949
the legislators, how they see this as well, because

01:00:00.949 --> 01:00:03.969
that's what it is. It's really easy to get caught

01:00:03.969 --> 01:00:07.289
up in, you know, ideological, emotional politics

01:00:07.289 --> 01:00:11.050
of this issue, you know, around climate change

01:00:11.050 --> 01:00:14.170
and green energy. But that's not what this bill

01:00:14.170 --> 01:00:18.050
is. Not by any means. It's about a tax. And frankly,

01:00:18.409 --> 01:00:21.849
it's about an unfair tax. And this is the way

01:00:21.849 --> 01:00:25.230
to fix it. And we need to fix it now. So it really

01:00:25.230 --> 01:00:28.070
feels like, you know, to use an Olympics metaphor,

01:00:28.190 --> 01:00:30.289
this really feels like it should just smoothly

01:00:30.289 --> 01:00:33.269
slide like. the Jamaican bobsled team through

01:00:33.269 --> 01:00:35.769
the rest of the process. I hope so. I hope so.

01:00:35.889 --> 01:00:37.489
All right. Let's see what happens. Thank you

01:00:37.489 --> 01:00:39.809
very much, Paul Jewell, for joining us today.

01:00:39.949 --> 01:00:41.889
It was an honor to interview you. Yeah, it was

01:00:41.889 --> 01:00:44.070
weird. It was weird. I'll admit it was weird.

01:00:44.190 --> 01:00:47.050
Yeah. I'm not sure I like it. We'll see. I might

01:00:47.050 --> 01:00:49.309
want to be back with the headphones on the next

01:00:49.309 --> 01:00:51.050
time we talk. We'll see what happens. Yeah. I

01:00:51.050 --> 01:00:54.070
get, I get, I don't, I don't like it. I'm not

01:00:54.070 --> 01:00:59.440
sure yet. A lot around a lot of things. I don't

01:00:59.440 --> 01:01:01.920
know yet. I'm not sure about Travis. All right.

01:01:01.920 --> 01:01:05.139
Well, I appreciate you going through this exercise

01:01:05.139 --> 01:01:07.400
and whether this gets released or not. It was

01:01:07.400 --> 01:01:09.500
a fun interview. Thank you for being here. And

01:01:09.500 --> 01:01:11.800
we will see you all next time on the County Connections

01:01:11.800 --> 01:01:15.880
podcast. Thanks, Travis. Thanks for tuning in

01:01:15.880 --> 01:01:18.199
to County Connection. Stay in the loop by subscribing

01:01:18.199 --> 01:01:20.739
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01:01:20.739 --> 01:01:23.380
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01:01:23.599 --> 01:01:25.760
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01:01:30.179 --> 01:01:32.420
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