WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:02.299 False sense of overconfidence. Right. Yes. Correct. 00:00:03.060 --> 00:00:07.879 You know, attitude follows leadership. But I 00:00:07.879 --> 00:00:11.019 know I feel like last year. Are you saying my 00:00:11.019 --> 00:00:13.060 leadership gives you confidence? No, I'm saying 00:00:13.060 --> 00:00:15.080 your leadership is full of false confidence to 00:00:15.080 --> 00:00:18.160 be perfectly clear. Yeah. In this scenario, I'm 00:00:18.160 --> 00:00:22.690 Veronica Corningston. Welcome to County Connection, 00:00:22.710 --> 00:00:24.809 the official podcast of the Washington State 00:00:24.809 --> 00:00:27.210 Association of Counties, where we dive into the 00:00:27.210 --> 00:00:29.210 legislative issues shaping the future of our 00:00:29.210 --> 00:00:32.070 communities. From budgets to public safety, infrastructure 00:00:32.070 --> 00:00:35.009 to elections, we'll break down what's happening 00:00:35.009 --> 00:00:37.789 in Olympia and how it impacts counties from across 00:00:37.789 --> 00:00:40.869 the Evergreen State. Stay informed, stay engaged, 00:00:41.030 --> 00:00:43.890 and join us as we amplify the voice of Washington's 00:00:43.890 --> 00:00:50.109 39 counties. Welcome back, everybody, to the 00:00:50.109 --> 00:00:52.409 County Connection podcast. I'm Paul Jewell, your 00:00:52.409 --> 00:00:54.509 host and government relations director for the 00:00:54.509 --> 00:00:56.969 Washington State Association of Counties. We're 00:00:56.969 --> 00:00:59.310 back in the legislative session. It's early January 00:00:59.310 --> 00:01:02.890 2026. In fact, what is it, the 15th today? So 00:01:02.890 --> 00:01:05.980 it's really mid -January already. Curtis is back 00:01:05.980 --> 00:01:09.140 in the studio. Curtis, our policy coordinator 00:01:09.140 --> 00:01:12.060 here for WASAC, and we're going to chat a little 00:01:12.060 --> 00:01:13.799 bit about public defense. How are things going, 00:01:13.900 --> 00:01:16.239 Curtis? Going pretty well, Paul. Start of the 00:01:16.239 --> 00:01:18.980 session treating you well so far? It is, yeah. 00:01:19.480 --> 00:01:23.900 First short session in this lobbying role. I 00:01:23.900 --> 00:01:26.299 like the lower volume of bills, I'll say that. 00:01:27.459 --> 00:01:30.760 So far. So far. Yeah, so far. Don't get your 00:01:30.760 --> 00:01:33.680 hopes up too high. It just got started, but so 00:01:33.680 --> 00:01:36.200 far. The good news is I was looking at the calendar 00:01:36.200 --> 00:01:39.799 the other day, and cutoff is only about two and 00:01:39.799 --> 00:01:42.560 a half weeks away. So unlike last year, which 00:01:42.560 --> 00:01:44.500 was your first session, when it felt like the... 00:01:45.040 --> 00:01:48.540 The Cascade of Bill submittals would never end. 00:01:48.659 --> 00:01:50.540 Sure. This one's going to end a lot sooner. Right, 00:01:50.620 --> 00:01:53.079 yeah. Looking forward to that process. It does 00:01:53.079 --> 00:01:56.659 feel like everything's much more condensed. I 00:01:56.659 --> 00:02:00.310 had 10 different... committees i testified in 00:02:00.310 --> 00:02:02.950 this week i never had a week like that last session 00:02:02.950 --> 00:02:05.790 so it doesn't feel like less work it just feels 00:02:05.790 --> 00:02:08.349 like uh it's more all at once yeah it just starts 00:02:08.349 --> 00:02:11.729 faster and they've got to cram it all in to a 00:02:11.729 --> 00:02:13.090 much shorter period of time if you think about 00:02:13.090 --> 00:02:15.449 it you know once friday is over of this week 00:02:15.449 --> 00:02:18.120 there's only two two weeks and a couple of days 00:02:18.120 --> 00:02:21.460 left for bills to be heard. So it gets only more 00:02:21.460 --> 00:02:24.759 intense from here. That's for sure. Speaking 00:02:24.759 --> 00:02:28.500 of intense and big issues, right at the top of 00:02:28.500 --> 00:02:30.460 our plate again this year for WASAC is one of 00:02:30.460 --> 00:02:32.879 our priorities is public defense. You've been 00:02:32.879 --> 00:02:34.759 working on that now for a couple of years for 00:02:34.759 --> 00:02:37.539 us. We made a little bit of progress last year. 00:02:37.560 --> 00:02:40.099 Congratulations. We got another appropriation, 00:02:40.139 --> 00:02:42.520 but then we had some really tough news during 00:02:42.520 --> 00:02:44.860 the interim about caseload standards. And we 00:02:44.860 --> 00:02:46.419 won't go into those because we talked about them 00:02:46.419 --> 00:02:49.759 in previous. podcasts. If folks want to, if they're 00:02:49.759 --> 00:02:52.360 not familiar with that issue, we suggest going 00:02:52.360 --> 00:02:55.620 back in our podcast library and you can listen 00:02:55.620 --> 00:02:58.860 and get more informed. But that, of course, is 00:02:58.860 --> 00:03:03.000 driving even greater costs for counties. And 00:03:03.000 --> 00:03:05.240 I know we're working on this again. So where 00:03:05.240 --> 00:03:07.099 are we at with public defense this year? Yeah. 00:03:07.099 --> 00:03:10.319 So just starting on the tails of last session, 00:03:10.360 --> 00:03:13.229 like you mentioned, Paul, we had the first increase 00:03:13.229 --> 00:03:15.370 in appropriation to what we call the 10 -101 00:03:15.370 --> 00:03:20.400 funds since 2010 when really, they first were 00:03:20.400 --> 00:03:22.939 implemented. Yeah, congratulations. I mean, that's 00:03:22.939 --> 00:03:25.919 a nice accomplishment. Right. Well, I mean, I 00:03:25.919 --> 00:03:28.759 won't take the credit. I think our executive 00:03:28.759 --> 00:03:30.400 director, Derek Young, has done a tremendous 00:03:30.400 --> 00:03:33.900 amount of work on that. I think the members really 00:03:33.900 --> 00:03:36.000 rallied around the issue. Yeah, and have been 00:03:36.000 --> 00:03:38.159 for a while. Right. I mean, at the beginning 00:03:38.159 --> 00:03:40.639 of the session last year, it seemed like we were 00:03:40.639 --> 00:03:42.360 going to have trouble even getting a bill and 00:03:42.360 --> 00:03:45.340 getting a hearing, let alone being able to go 00:03:45.340 --> 00:03:46.879 deep into the session on budget discussions. 00:03:46.960 --> 00:03:49.629 And we just had some really tremendous mobilization 00:03:49.629 --> 00:03:51.650 of our members. I mean, everyone kind of took 00:03:51.650 --> 00:03:53.550 on the issue, reached out to their legislators, 00:03:53.750 --> 00:03:56.789 reached out to chairs. That really makes a big 00:03:56.789 --> 00:03:59.729 difference. Well, we finally found some champions 00:03:59.729 --> 00:04:02.530 in the legislature, right? Which is so strange 00:04:02.530 --> 00:04:04.930 to me that it took us this long, but there had 00:04:04.930 --> 00:04:09.990 been previously a lot of resistance in the legislature 00:04:09.990 --> 00:04:13.139 to this issue. I mean, they had... decades of 00:04:13.139 --> 00:04:15.560 their own studies telling them they needed to 00:04:15.560 --> 00:04:18.839 take action and they didn't. And then we have 00:04:18.839 --> 00:04:21.759 been working on this for more than a decade really 00:04:21.759 --> 00:04:25.600 solidly before you ever came. And we had a hard 00:04:25.600 --> 00:04:27.759 time finding champions in the legislature. But 00:04:27.759 --> 00:04:29.660 last year we had a couple of members really step 00:04:29.660 --> 00:04:32.319 up. Yeah. Well, and I think that speaks to the... 00:04:33.639 --> 00:04:36.079 kind of severity of the crisis in communities 00:04:36.079 --> 00:04:39.600 right now yeah i mean there's it's not a this 00:04:39.600 --> 00:04:42.480 is going to be a problem type issue anymore it's 00:04:42.480 --> 00:04:45.519 a full -blown hair on fire crisis in a lot of 00:04:45.519 --> 00:04:47.100 communities this is a problem right now right 00:04:47.100 --> 00:04:51.079 where people i mean we can't enforce large parts 00:04:51.079 --> 00:04:53.620 of our criminal and misdemeanor code and we saw 00:04:53.620 --> 00:04:55.740 that happen this year in a couple of counties 00:04:55.740 --> 00:04:59.060 right didn't we correct yes specifically i think 00:04:59.060 --> 00:05:04.560 uh two counties have been the public face of 00:05:04.560 --> 00:05:07.379 this crisis, and that's Spokane and Benton County. 00:05:08.139 --> 00:05:11.279 Spokane County has a situation where the Public 00:05:11.279 --> 00:05:15.279 Defender's Office is reaching caseload capacity 00:05:15.279 --> 00:05:19.670 very early in the month, and they are not assigning 00:05:19.670 --> 00:05:23.990 counsel in custody cases. So when we're talking 00:05:23.990 --> 00:05:26.430 early in the month, are we talking like the 14th, 00:05:26.430 --> 00:05:30.670 the 15th, the 20th? Are we talking the 8th? What 00:05:30.670 --> 00:05:33.610 are we talking? So it's been different each month, 00:05:33.730 --> 00:05:37.370 but, I mean, it's been single digits a couple 00:05:37.370 --> 00:05:40.250 months, right? In October and November, four 00:05:40.250 --> 00:05:42.629 out -of -custody cases. How it's been happening 00:05:42.629 --> 00:05:46.040 is they reach caseload capacity. or they see 00:05:46.040 --> 00:05:48.300 they're going to and they say all right we're 00:05:48.300 --> 00:05:50.199 going to prioritize the remainder of our caseload 00:05:50.199 --> 00:05:54.120 capacity for uh in custody cases cases where 00:05:54.120 --> 00:05:56.269 the person It has to remain incarcerated until 00:05:56.269 --> 00:05:57.509 they're tried. So they've been giving notice 00:05:57.509 --> 00:06:00.990 to the county that they basically are full? To 00:06:00.990 --> 00:06:03.949 the Superior Court, yeah. And what is that based 00:06:03.949 --> 00:06:06.509 on? Is that based on just what they think their 00:06:06.509 --> 00:06:08.230 capabilities are? Or does it have something to 00:06:08.230 --> 00:06:09.649 do with the new caseload standards? It's the 00:06:09.649 --> 00:06:11.750 new caseload standards, 100%. Okay, so they're 00:06:11.750 --> 00:06:15.310 implementing those. Yes. And again, if people 00:06:15.310 --> 00:06:17.310 don't remember, there's previous podcasts about 00:06:17.310 --> 00:06:19.750 that. But to just be really short and sweet, 00:06:19.810 --> 00:06:23.790 essentially the Supreme Court adopted some recommendations. 00:06:24.170 --> 00:06:26.709 from the State Bar Association that did a study 00:06:26.709 --> 00:06:30.889 on public defense caseload standards and basically 00:06:30.889 --> 00:06:35.329 said that we need to cut them by a third, right? 00:06:35.850 --> 00:06:39.149 Which means that the same attorney can only handle 00:06:39.149 --> 00:06:40.990 about a third of the cases that he was allowed 00:06:40.990 --> 00:06:43.589 or she or they were allowed to handle before. 00:06:43.949 --> 00:06:46.089 That's a simplification, but roughly, yes. Yeah, 00:06:46.089 --> 00:06:49.089 okay. So under those new standards, you're saying 00:06:49.089 --> 00:06:51.540 Spokane's... Department of Public Defense has 00:06:51.540 --> 00:06:53.939 been telling the courts that they're full up 00:06:53.939 --> 00:06:57.259 by sometime early in the month. Yes. Yep. So 00:06:57.259 --> 00:07:00.040 what happens when that happens? I mean, it's 00:07:00.040 --> 00:07:04.079 not as if people who can't afford attorneys stop 00:07:04.079 --> 00:07:08.620 getting arrested. What happens? So under Washington 00:07:08.620 --> 00:07:11.160 state law, you have 72 hours to assign counsel 00:07:11.160 --> 00:07:15.680 or 72 hours to have someone have an arraignment 00:07:15.680 --> 00:07:18.790 once they've been arrested. You have to assign 00:07:18.790 --> 00:07:22.089 counsel within that 72 -hour window. And even 00:07:22.089 --> 00:07:23.810 a little sooner in some cases because there's 00:07:23.810 --> 00:07:26.029 this presumption that a defendant will have a 00:07:26.029 --> 00:07:28.629 chance to meet with their attorney before a trial 00:07:28.629 --> 00:07:33.370 happens. So we have basically three days. And 00:07:33.370 --> 00:07:35.829 if we don't get counsel assigned in those three 00:07:35.829 --> 00:07:39.430 days, we have to let the person go. Now, if we 00:07:39.430 --> 00:07:44.410 let them go, are the charges dropped? A lot of 00:07:44.410 --> 00:07:48.149 times, yes. A lot of times. Wow. Have we had 00:07:48.149 --> 00:07:51.269 any instances where people who were accused of 00:07:51.269 --> 00:07:53.449 pretty dangerous crimes have been let go? Yeah. 00:07:53.550 --> 00:07:56.290 I haven't heard of any in the last six months 00:07:56.290 --> 00:07:58.629 or so, but when these caseload standards were 00:07:58.629 --> 00:08:00.649 first, when the conversation was happening, there 00:08:00.649 --> 00:08:03.230 was reports out of Benton County specifically 00:08:03.230 --> 00:08:06.149 where there was someone that was accused of a 00:08:06.149 --> 00:08:10.029 pretty violent offense, accused of rape. They 00:08:10.029 --> 00:08:13.329 did not have counsel available, and so they were 00:08:13.329 --> 00:08:16.230 not able to bring charges. That's awful. Wow. 00:08:17.430 --> 00:08:20.149 So what are we doing about it? We've got this 00:08:20.149 --> 00:08:23.610 situation. We've had this situation for a while. 00:08:24.189 --> 00:08:26.449 I don't want to go into all the gory details 00:08:26.449 --> 00:08:29.430 because we've done that in the past as far as 00:08:29.430 --> 00:08:31.170 how long we've been dealing with this and kind 00:08:31.170 --> 00:08:33.230 of the progression of the situation. And now 00:08:33.230 --> 00:08:36.450 we know that it was made worse between last session 00:08:36.450 --> 00:08:38.129 and this session with the new caseload standards. 00:08:38.629 --> 00:08:41.870 So what is our strategy this year when we're 00:08:41.870 --> 00:08:44.440 looking at... legislative session and thinking 00:08:44.440 --> 00:08:46.620 about, you know, it's only 60 days too, right? 00:08:46.740 --> 00:08:50.399 So what can we get done in 60 days? Yeah, well, 00:08:50.580 --> 00:08:53.200 there's a number of proposals. I will say that, 00:08:53.240 --> 00:08:56.820 like you mentioned, they've studied this time 00:08:56.820 --> 00:08:59.159 and time again over the decades, starting with 00:08:59.159 --> 00:09:02.539 the Indigent Defense Task Force in 1989. And 00:09:02.539 --> 00:09:06.059 every single time that they've sent someone out 00:09:06.059 --> 00:09:08.740 to study this, they've come back with some, you 00:09:08.740 --> 00:09:11.649 know, It's a little bit different set of recommendations 00:09:11.649 --> 00:09:13.889 every time, but there's one at the top that's 00:09:13.889 --> 00:09:16.549 always there, and that's that the state massively 00:09:16.549 --> 00:09:18.990 underfunds criminal defense services. Right, 00:09:19.029 --> 00:09:20.570 which is something we've been saying too. The 00:09:20.570 --> 00:09:23.649 solution is more funding. Why is that always 00:09:23.649 --> 00:09:28.870 the solution? Always more funding. Well, in this 00:09:28.870 --> 00:09:34.379 case, it's especially. And that's because county 00:09:34.379 --> 00:09:36.519 governments, and commissioners will know this, 00:09:36.639 --> 00:09:40.240 they don't have any control over how much they 00:09:40.240 --> 00:09:43.259 have to spend on this. Right. The state sets 00:09:43.259 --> 00:09:46.799 the criminal code, okay? The prosecutor is an 00:09:46.799 --> 00:09:48.840 independently elected official, decides when 00:09:48.840 --> 00:09:50.639 charges are brought. Yeah, we don't control how 00:09:50.639 --> 00:09:52.019 many people are out there committing crimes in 00:09:52.019 --> 00:09:54.480 our county. Right. The system as it is right 00:09:54.480 --> 00:09:56.700 now, where we're mandated to provide these services, 00:09:56.740 --> 00:09:59.490 mandated to budget for them, but also... have 00:09:59.490 --> 00:10:01.549 to follow the lead of the elected prosecutor 00:10:01.549 --> 00:10:03.809 and the state's criminal code. We just write 00:10:03.809 --> 00:10:06.409 the check for the number that the system decides. 00:10:06.710 --> 00:10:08.570 Yeah, technically, I guess you could say the 00:10:08.570 --> 00:10:10.250 sheriff is out there deciding how many people 00:10:10.250 --> 00:10:12.690 get arrested. I mean, technically, but at the 00:10:12.690 --> 00:10:15.090 same time, the sheriff takes an oath of office 00:10:15.090 --> 00:10:17.610 to uphold the laws of the Constitution of the 00:10:17.610 --> 00:10:20.169 United States, just like other elected officials, 00:10:20.309 --> 00:10:22.450 right? So you could make an argument that regardless 00:10:22.450 --> 00:10:25.389 of how many people he wants to, or she wants 00:10:25.389 --> 00:10:28.149 to, or they want to arrest, they're obligated 00:10:28.149 --> 00:10:30.330 to when a crime is being committed. Prosecutors 00:10:30.330 --> 00:10:32.490 the same way, right? Prosecutors are obligated 00:10:32.490 --> 00:10:36.970 to prosecute. I mean, some people say they control 00:10:36.970 --> 00:10:39.049 it as well, and I suppose there are decisions 00:10:39.049 --> 00:10:41.029 that can be made that they have discretion for, 00:10:41.190 --> 00:10:43.169 but at the end of the day, if people are going 00:10:43.169 --> 00:10:45.929 to commit crimes, if people are going to break 00:10:45.929 --> 00:10:48.649 the law, they are going to get arrested. Absolutely. 00:10:48.669 --> 00:10:49.970 And they're going to become part of the court 00:10:49.970 --> 00:10:52.289 system, and a good portion of those folks are 00:10:52.289 --> 00:10:56.190 going to be considered... poor or indigent, right, 00:10:56.350 --> 00:11:00.009 and can't afford an attorney, and then the public 00:11:00.009 --> 00:11:01.850 has to pick up those costs. Yeah, and to be clear, 00:11:01.929 --> 00:11:05.990 a good portion is well over 85%. 85%. Yeah. That's 00:11:05.990 --> 00:11:08.009 actually a healthier portion than I thought. 00:11:08.190 --> 00:11:11.509 Yeah. Wow. So that's the vast majority. Yeah, 00:11:11.570 --> 00:11:15.210 yes. Interesting. There's probably some other 00:11:15.210 --> 00:11:17.389 things to talk about with regard to that, but 00:11:17.389 --> 00:11:21.250 let's stay focused on public defense. What are 00:11:21.250 --> 00:11:23.669 we doing about it? What do we got in the hopper 00:11:23.669 --> 00:11:25.730 this year versus what we had in the hopper last 00:11:25.730 --> 00:11:27.990 year? Yes. Because we had a bill last year, but 00:11:27.990 --> 00:11:30.090 we didn't get that. Right. We just got some more 00:11:30.090 --> 00:11:32.289 money, which is a big piece of the puzzle. Yes. 00:11:32.490 --> 00:11:35.730 So we got an appropriation that raised the state 00:11:35.730 --> 00:11:39.690 share from 2 % of statewide funding to 6%. Okay. 00:11:40.620 --> 00:11:43.100 the normal cost increases that happen in any 00:11:43.100 --> 00:11:45.539 annual cycle, salary competition, things like 00:11:45.539 --> 00:11:47.740 that. 6 % is not great, but it is three times 00:11:47.740 --> 00:11:49.840 what it was before. It's already down to 5%. 00:11:49.840 --> 00:11:52.279 Oh, boy. And with the state's implementation 00:11:52.279 --> 00:11:55.289 of... or with the Supreme Court's order on implementation 00:11:55.289 --> 00:11:57.269 of caseload standards, it's going to be back 00:11:57.269 --> 00:11:59.610 down to 2%. So costs have already gone up in 00:11:59.610 --> 00:12:02.509 the last six months to the point where we've 00:12:02.509 --> 00:12:05.730 dropped from 6 % to 5 % share, meaning the state 00:12:05.730 --> 00:12:07.950 has. And you're saying that very quickly that's 00:12:07.950 --> 00:12:10.350 going to get deteriorated. Yeah. Well, with caseload 00:12:10.350 --> 00:12:12.750 standards, we're required to reduce caseloads 00:12:12.750 --> 00:12:15.289 by 10 % each year over the next 10 years until 00:12:15.289 --> 00:12:18.590 we comply with the new caseload standards that 00:12:18.590 --> 00:12:24.480 the Supreme Court adopted. We expect statewide—this 00:12:24.480 --> 00:12:27.059 is a rough estimate because it's really hard 00:12:27.059 --> 00:12:29.200 to gather all the data. Everyone's in a little 00:12:29.200 --> 00:12:31.019 bit different place in how close they are to 00:12:31.019 --> 00:12:33.700 complying with the caseload standards. But we 00:12:33.700 --> 00:12:35.860 estimate that with normal cost increases and 00:12:35.860 --> 00:12:39.600 the first year of implementation mandate, counties 00:12:39.600 --> 00:12:42.299 are looking at an additional—in addition to what 00:12:42.299 --> 00:12:45.100 they already spend—an additional $34 .7 million 00:12:45.100 --> 00:12:48.600 that they'll need to appropriate in their budgets 00:12:48.600 --> 00:12:51.419 to cover the— cost of these mandates so if we 00:12:51.419 --> 00:12:53.659 were i mean just doing simple math we've got 00:12:53.659 --> 00:12:55.399 39 counties so we're talking almost a million 00:12:55.399 --> 00:12:57.360 bucks per jurisdiction obviously that's going 00:12:57.360 --> 00:13:00.419 to vary yep it lands it lands unevenly across 00:13:00.419 --> 00:13:02.139 the geography because i mean we got counties 00:13:02.139 --> 00:13:04.259 with um you know over a million people and we 00:13:04.259 --> 00:13:06.639 got counties with less than and i'll say that 00:13:06.639 --> 00:13:10.259 number also that number doesn't count king county 00:13:10.259 --> 00:13:12.919 at all though oh it doesn't no because king county 00:13:12.919 --> 00:13:15.929 is a pretty far ahead of everyone else in terms 00:13:15.929 --> 00:13:18.090 of implementing these caseload standards. So 00:13:18.090 --> 00:13:21.230 they don't have the same like per capita. So 00:13:21.230 --> 00:13:23.549 that 34 million is taking King County out of 00:13:23.549 --> 00:13:25.330 the equation. Okay. Well, that's interesting 00:13:25.330 --> 00:13:27.870 because that, that. That changes things a bit, 00:13:27.889 --> 00:13:30.529 more evenly distributed. But we still have counties 00:13:30.529 --> 00:13:33.789 that are near a million and some that are, like 00:13:33.789 --> 00:13:35.649 I said, less than 10 ,000. In fact, I think a 00:13:35.649 --> 00:13:38.629 couple that are less than 5 ,000 residents total. 00:13:39.549 --> 00:13:43.370 So we keep kind of focusing on the problem and 00:13:43.370 --> 00:13:44.950 some of the symptoms and some of the progression. 00:13:45.549 --> 00:13:49.049 What's the solution that the legislature is considering 00:13:49.049 --> 00:13:51.110 this year? Well, we're in a tight spot. As I 00:13:51.110 --> 00:13:53.720 said, the solution is more funding. The solution 00:13:53.720 --> 00:13:56.419 is for the state to take responsibility for that 00:13:56.419 --> 00:14:00.039 funding. You know, only three states in the United 00:14:00.039 --> 00:14:02.649 States fund less. than Washington State. Okay. 00:14:03.190 --> 00:14:05.190 We need the state to step in and take a bigger 00:14:05.190 --> 00:14:07.110 share of this. So do we have a bill? We have 00:14:07.110 --> 00:14:09.269 a bill. And what's the bill number? So the bill 00:14:09.269 --> 00:14:12.870 numbers are in the House, we have 1592. In the 00:14:12.870 --> 00:14:15.470 Senate, we have 5404. Okay. Our sponsor of those 00:14:15.470 --> 00:14:18.250 bills in the House, we have our two... So those 00:14:18.250 --> 00:14:19.789 are the same bills from last year. They are. 00:14:20.590 --> 00:14:22.350 We're just bringing them back. We have subsidies, 00:14:22.490 --> 00:14:24.409 though. There's a few changes. Okay. So last 00:14:24.409 --> 00:14:27.009 year's bill would have required immediate 50 00:14:27.009 --> 00:14:29.169 -50 cost sharing. So hang on just a second. So 00:14:29.169 --> 00:14:30.809 just to remind folks, because we're in the second... 00:14:30.799 --> 00:14:32.820 Second year of a legislative session, the second 00:14:32.820 --> 00:14:34.919 year of the biennium or the second half, all 00:14:34.919 --> 00:14:37.039 the bills that were alive in the first session, 00:14:37.100 --> 00:14:39.360 even though they didn't pass, they can come back 00:14:39.360 --> 00:14:41.139 during the second session. They're still considered 00:14:41.139 --> 00:14:44.980 alive and they can be reworked or continued to 00:14:44.980 --> 00:14:46.559 be worked from where they left off or they can 00:14:46.559 --> 00:14:49.539 go backwards and you can still introduce substitutes 00:14:49.539 --> 00:14:51.080 and amendments to those bills. And so that's 00:14:51.080 --> 00:14:53.399 what you're suggesting. We had last year's bills. 00:14:53.519 --> 00:14:55.139 We have those numbers. They're good titles or 00:14:55.139 --> 00:14:57.460 good numbers. We're just going to put some new. 00:14:58.560 --> 00:15:02.340 words in place of the old words what we call 00:15:02.340 --> 00:15:05.419 a substitute yes okay and you were you were about 00:15:05.419 --> 00:15:07.600 to describe that yeah so last year's bill would 00:15:07.600 --> 00:15:10.320 require an immediate 50 50 cost sharing for public 00:15:10.320 --> 00:15:12.419 defense services with the state and then they 00:15:12.419 --> 00:15:14.480 would cover all cost increases going forward 00:15:14.480 --> 00:15:18.679 uh this bill the proposed substitute to 1592 00:15:18.679 --> 00:15:22.299 and 5404 uh which have not uh been introduced 00:15:22.299 --> 00:15:24.080 yet because we haven't been successful in getting 00:15:24.080 --> 00:15:25.980 these bills scheduled for a hearing quite yet 00:15:25.980 --> 00:15:28.299 uh we're optimistic that's going to happen in 00:15:28.299 --> 00:15:30.440 the next couple weeks. But what these bills would 00:15:30.440 --> 00:15:33.179 do is they would delay the implementation of 00:15:33.179 --> 00:15:36.440 that 50 -50 cost sharing across the number of 00:15:36.440 --> 00:15:38.980 biennium. So it would start slowly with requiring 00:15:38.980 --> 00:15:43.320 the state to always meet the 5 % threshold they're 00:15:43.320 --> 00:15:46.139 at right now. That would take effect in 2028. 00:15:46.779 --> 00:15:53.169 Then moving up to 15 % in 2029. to 25 % in 2030, 00:15:53.509 --> 00:15:58.049 35 % in 2031, and then 50 % in 2032. And then 00:15:58.049 --> 00:16:01.850 in 2033 and beyond, it would require the state 00:16:01.850 --> 00:16:06.070 to have all cost increases met by state appropriation. 00:16:06.190 --> 00:16:09.649 And so it's the same idea, just with a longer 00:16:09.649 --> 00:16:13.809 implementation timeline. It's basically counties 00:16:13.809 --> 00:16:16.429 going to the state and saying, we absolutely 00:16:16.429 --> 00:16:18.860 need... For long term sustainability, as these 00:16:18.860 --> 00:16:21.299 caseload standards are implemented, there is 00:16:21.299 --> 00:16:25.149 just no viable way. for our public safety systems 00:16:25.149 --> 00:16:28.909 to work unless the state contributes to the cost. 00:16:29.090 --> 00:16:32.789 So this bill basically commits them at a date 00:16:32.789 --> 00:16:37.309 certain in the future to incrementally ramp up 00:16:37.309 --> 00:16:39.190 their support to the point where they're actually 00:16:39.190 --> 00:16:41.269 sharing the cost with us. Right. And it doesn't 00:16:41.269 --> 00:16:44.649 prevent appropriations over that. There's been 00:16:44.649 --> 00:16:46.529 a couple states that have adopted this model 00:16:46.529 --> 00:16:48.610 where they make a statutory commitment and then 00:16:48.610 --> 00:16:51.360 the state... in good faith, does its best to 00:16:51.360 --> 00:16:53.779 appropriate what they can each session and just 00:16:53.779 --> 00:16:56.200 staying above the statutory threshold. The two 00:16:56.200 --> 00:16:58.340 states that I would call out that have been most 00:16:58.340 --> 00:16:59.960 successful in doing this are New York and Ohio. 00:17:00.460 --> 00:17:06.519 In both of those situations, they exceeded those 00:17:06.519 --> 00:17:09.339 statutory thresholds and in some cases are paying 00:17:09.339 --> 00:17:12.990 more than the statute. commits them to each year 00:17:12.990 --> 00:17:14.930 in their appropriations. In Ohio, they're only 00:17:14.930 --> 00:17:17.829 committed to paying 50 % of costs and they are 00:17:17.829 --> 00:17:20.970 much closer to 100 % than 50%. Oh, wow. In New 00:17:20.970 --> 00:17:24.069 York, they committed to getting to 100 % at a 00:17:24.069 --> 00:17:26.369 certain date and they beat that deadline by two 00:17:26.369 --> 00:17:30.349 years. So it's this formula that's worked well 00:17:30.349 --> 00:17:31.890 in other states as they've made the transition 00:17:31.890 --> 00:17:34.029 from a locally funded system to either a state 00:17:34.029 --> 00:17:36.109 supported or state funded system. So we're kind 00:17:36.109 --> 00:17:38.410 of modeling after some of the successes we've 00:17:38.410 --> 00:17:40.940 seen in other parts of the country. But I have 00:17:40.940 --> 00:17:42.460 to ask, Curtis, because our members are probably 00:17:42.460 --> 00:17:44.259 thinking this as we're talking right now. I mean, 00:17:44.259 --> 00:17:46.400 this is a problem right now. Yeah. Right. And 00:17:46.400 --> 00:17:48.940 we're going to experience significant cost increases 00:17:48.940 --> 00:17:51.140 over the next couple of years. Right. Right. 00:17:51.259 --> 00:17:54.759 Before what you described as additional state 00:17:54.759 --> 00:17:57.299 support actually kicks in. I mean, this is a 00:17:57.299 --> 00:18:00.200 strategy or this is not a strategy. This is almost 00:18:00.200 --> 00:18:03.220 a crisis. Yep. I would say. Not almost. It's 00:18:03.220 --> 00:18:05.740 a crisis. That we're all facing today. I mean, 00:18:05.779 --> 00:18:07.579 we have already talked about what's happening 00:18:07.579 --> 00:18:09.769 on the ground right now in some places. that 00:18:09.769 --> 00:18:14.829 don't have the funding, that can't put prosecutors 00:18:14.829 --> 00:18:18.390 or, I'm sorry, defense counsel, that can't assign 00:18:18.390 --> 00:18:22.029 defense counsel because they've run through their 00:18:22.029 --> 00:18:24.730 caseload standards already, et cetera, and folks 00:18:24.730 --> 00:18:28.130 are being let back out on the street. Why the 00:18:28.130 --> 00:18:31.750 delay? Why let the state wait another three or 00:18:31.750 --> 00:18:34.470 four years before they start really being a serious 00:18:34.470 --> 00:18:37.710 partner here? Certainly, and just to say, the 00:18:37.710 --> 00:18:39.309 statutory commitment doesn't, like I said, it 00:18:39.309 --> 00:18:41.349 doesn't prevent additional appropriations over 00:18:41.349 --> 00:18:44.329 that commitment. And we'll still be asking for 00:18:44.329 --> 00:18:47.210 an additional appropriation to 10 -101 funds 00:18:47.210 --> 00:18:50.730 in this budget cycle. But I think, like I said, 00:18:50.829 --> 00:18:52.950 the statutory commitment model has worked well 00:18:52.950 --> 00:18:56.130 in other states. It gives the state goalposts, 00:18:56.130 --> 00:18:58.630 and it moves the conversation from one where 00:18:58.630 --> 00:19:00.430 we're always saying we need more money, we need 00:19:00.430 --> 00:19:04.069 more money, we need more money, to set a, you 00:19:04.069 --> 00:19:09.430 know, in writing commitment about how much they'll 00:19:09.430 --> 00:19:11.730 need to appropriate over a number of years and 00:19:11.730 --> 00:19:14.930 you know i think best case scenario for us would 00:19:14.930 --> 00:19:17.569 obviously be 50 50 next year but that's just 00:19:17.569 --> 00:19:19.470 not possible in the current budget climate and 00:19:19.470 --> 00:19:22.029 we did a lot of work over the interim with uh 00:19:22.029 --> 00:19:25.750 some of the leaders especially uh so it's really 00:19:25.750 --> 00:19:28.089 a function of kind of the fiscal situation the 00:19:28.089 --> 00:19:30.630 state finds itself it is yeah okay but you know 00:19:30.630 --> 00:19:34.039 counties are in the same situation In large part, 00:19:34.140 --> 00:19:37.400 right? We're feeling the same way. We're feeling 00:19:37.400 --> 00:19:40.079 the same pinches. We're making the same cuts 00:19:40.079 --> 00:19:42.819 and the same tough decisions around services 00:19:42.819 --> 00:19:47.259 that the state is. Why can't the state step up 00:19:47.259 --> 00:19:50.819 and do something a little sooner? Yeah, well, 00:19:50.900 --> 00:19:53.569 I think what we've heard is that... There's going 00:19:53.569 --> 00:19:55.710 to be hard budget decisions made even without 00:19:55.710 --> 00:19:57.670 additional appropriations to public defense. 00:19:58.049 --> 00:20:00.450 And so, you know, the state's making tradeoffs 00:20:00.450 --> 00:20:03.950 right now. And they're asking us, like, you know, 00:20:03.970 --> 00:20:07.279 what do you want us to cut? to fund this. And 00:20:07.279 --> 00:20:10.259 those things are like education and early learning. 00:20:10.579 --> 00:20:12.339 And now you're not saying those are the things 00:20:12.339 --> 00:20:14.779 that we want them to cut. No, I'm saying that's 00:20:14.779 --> 00:20:16.519 where the money's going to come from. Those are 00:20:16.519 --> 00:20:18.000 the things they put on the board, right? They're 00:20:18.000 --> 00:20:19.660 like, here's education. Here's early learning. 00:20:19.680 --> 00:20:21.880 Here's mental health treatment. Here's right. 00:20:21.940 --> 00:20:23.740 All these other things, roads and bridges, all 00:20:23.740 --> 00:20:26.059 the things that the state pays for. And, and 00:20:26.059 --> 00:20:27.779 we know what that's like, right? You know, our 00:20:27.779 --> 00:20:29.319 County commissioners know what that's like because 00:20:29.319 --> 00:20:31.099 they're doing the same thing. They're running 00:20:31.099 --> 00:20:33.240 through the same exercises, right? Someone comes 00:20:33.240 --> 00:20:36.660 to them. in a tough budget situation like now, 00:20:36.740 --> 00:20:38.259 and they say, I need more money for X, and they 00:20:38.259 --> 00:20:40.220 say, okay, well, I'd love to give you money for 00:20:40.220 --> 00:20:42.059 X, but I'm going to have to take it from Y, and 00:20:42.059 --> 00:20:43.680 which one of these Ys do you want me to tell 00:20:43.680 --> 00:20:46.059 them you recommended? And, you know, it's a tough 00:20:46.059 --> 00:20:52.920 place to be. It's just, you know, it's hard to 00:20:52.920 --> 00:20:55.519 say, because I've been in those rooms, you know, 00:20:55.519 --> 00:20:57.539 it's hard to explain kind of how difficult some 00:20:57.539 --> 00:20:59.579 of those conversations really are. And they can 00:20:59.579 --> 00:21:01.619 be pretty emotional from time to time. Sure. 00:21:02.539 --> 00:21:05.819 But... There's always the big but. We are facing 00:21:05.819 --> 00:21:08.059 this. We're facing it alone. We've been facing 00:21:08.059 --> 00:21:12.880 it alone. It's time. I think most of our members 00:21:12.880 --> 00:21:14.799 would agree for the state to really become a 00:21:14.799 --> 00:21:18.779 partner here. This is a constitutional right 00:21:18.779 --> 00:21:21.400 to counsel. It's not something that the state 00:21:21.400 --> 00:21:24.500 created or the counties created. It's something 00:21:24.500 --> 00:21:27.480 that is one of the foundational, fundamental 00:21:27.480 --> 00:21:33.980 civil rights of our... of our union. And it's 00:21:33.980 --> 00:21:36.740 just so interesting that Washington is the outlier 00:21:36.740 --> 00:21:39.380 that it is. Yeah. So the other big question that's 00:21:39.380 --> 00:21:41.339 out there, and we don't have a lot of time left, 00:21:41.460 --> 00:21:43.200 so obviously we're not going to be able to go 00:21:43.200 --> 00:21:45.900 into a bunch of detail, Curtis, but the other 00:21:45.900 --> 00:21:48.279 big question that's out there is our lawsuit. 00:21:49.099 --> 00:21:52.079 So our lawsuit's still active on this particular 00:21:52.079 --> 00:21:54.599 issue, regardless of this piece of legislation, 00:21:54.859 --> 00:21:57.940 regardless of the state's budget situation. We 00:21:57.940 --> 00:22:03.180 just got a Supreme Court decision on that, and 00:22:03.180 --> 00:22:06.240 the decision was essentially no decision. What 00:22:06.240 --> 00:22:09.500 happened was... We were found by Superior Court 00:22:09.500 --> 00:22:12.339 to not actually have standing to sue in this 00:22:12.339 --> 00:22:14.339 particular case. We appealed that. The appeals 00:22:14.339 --> 00:22:17.039 court said, of course you do counties, county 00:22:17.039 --> 00:22:19.859 association. And then the attorney general appealed 00:22:19.859 --> 00:22:21.380 that to the Supreme Court, and the Supreme Court 00:22:21.380 --> 00:22:24.440 denied review, essentially sending it back to 00:22:24.440 --> 00:22:26.880 Superior Court with the appeals court decision 00:22:26.880 --> 00:22:29.720 intact, which is great news for us. And so now 00:22:29.720 --> 00:22:31.539 the lawsuit's going to move forward. So we have 00:22:31.539 --> 00:22:38.720 a situation where... The Supreme Court and the 00:22:38.720 --> 00:22:43.420 State Bar Association, excuse me, have adopted 00:22:43.420 --> 00:22:46.240 these new standards, increasing our costs. We 00:22:46.240 --> 00:22:47.920 have these bills that we're working on, and we 00:22:47.920 --> 00:22:49.880 got a lawsuit. We got these kind of three balls 00:22:49.880 --> 00:22:53.640 all in the air. How is the lawsuit going to be 00:22:53.640 --> 00:22:56.200 impacted by any of these things that we're doing, 00:22:56.279 --> 00:22:59.779 or how is the bill or maybe the caseload standards 00:22:59.779 --> 00:23:02.440 going to be impacted by the lawsuit? We're pursuing 00:23:02.440 --> 00:23:05.029 this legislation. In parallel with the lawsuit, 00:23:05.289 --> 00:23:09.809 I don't think that the bill that we've proposed 00:23:09.809 --> 00:23:13.710 here would change what's going to happen with 00:23:13.710 --> 00:23:16.190 that lawsuit. And I think, like, there's a big 00:23:16.190 --> 00:23:19.309 potential for a McCleary -level decision in something 00:23:19.309 --> 00:23:21.130 like this. Like we've said, this is a constitutional 00:23:21.130 --> 00:23:25.190 right guaranteed by the Bill of Rights, by the 00:23:25.190 --> 00:23:29.630 Sixth Amendment, right? And, you know, just like... 00:23:29.920 --> 00:23:32.519 In McCleary, when the Supreme Court ordered the 00:23:32.519 --> 00:23:35.119 state to fund these essential services that are 00:23:35.119 --> 00:23:37.279 guaranteed by the Constitution, I think that's 00:23:37.279 --> 00:23:39.279 our goal with the lawsuit. Do you think that 00:23:39.279 --> 00:23:43.880 that rings as something familiar in the brains 00:23:43.880 --> 00:23:45.700 of the legislators as well when you're talking 00:23:45.700 --> 00:23:49.819 to them about this issue? And is there much awareness 00:23:49.819 --> 00:23:53.000 of the recent Supreme Court decision that upheld 00:23:53.000 --> 00:23:56.339 the county's right to sue in this particular 00:23:56.339 --> 00:24:02.700 case? You know, I wish there was a... bigger 00:24:02.700 --> 00:24:04.859 sense of urgency from legislators around that. 00:24:04.920 --> 00:24:06.759 I will say that we've had some conversations 00:24:06.759 --> 00:24:08.880 with leadership where they seem very responsive 00:24:08.880 --> 00:24:12.339 to this particular issue. And that's been encouraging. 00:24:12.500 --> 00:24:14.759 And I think that's a big reason why we were able 00:24:14.759 --> 00:24:16.799 to get that budget appropriation last year and 00:24:16.799 --> 00:24:20.380 why when the Senate released its budgets, we 00:24:20.380 --> 00:24:23.940 saw a tripling of 10 -101 funds. Like I said, 00:24:23.960 --> 00:24:26.900 the first increase since 2010. And I think that 00:24:26.900 --> 00:24:29.859 was directly from conversations we had with the 00:24:29.859 --> 00:24:32.859 majority leader in the Senate. On this exact 00:24:32.859 --> 00:24:36.059 topic, I will say that as we're having conversations 00:24:36.059 --> 00:24:39.039 this year with legislators, it's kind of shocking 00:24:39.039 --> 00:24:44.200 to me sometimes that they don't seem to be internalizing 00:24:44.200 --> 00:24:47.799 the gravity. of that lawsuit and the decision 00:24:47.799 --> 00:24:49.880 the Supreme Court might make later in this year. 00:24:50.079 --> 00:24:52.839 Well, and just the sheer lack of support from 00:24:52.839 --> 00:24:55.400 the state on a fundamental constitutional right. 00:24:55.460 --> 00:24:58.559 I mean, it's really surprising. And, you know, 00:24:59.259 --> 00:25:02.960 we were always in that bottom tier of, what, 00:25:03.059 --> 00:25:05.400 number five out of 50 or something like that, 00:25:05.440 --> 00:25:08.240 number three out of 50. And I guess somebody's 00:25:08.240 --> 00:25:10.740 got to be there, but, man. In this particular 00:25:10.740 --> 00:25:12.299 case, that's not one of the ones that you want 00:25:12.299 --> 00:25:14.799 to be in the bottom of. Sure. And the states 00:25:14.799 --> 00:25:18.019 we're there with sure don't look like Washington. 00:25:18.059 --> 00:25:20.700 No. That's the thing. States like Mississippi, 00:25:20.839 --> 00:25:22.640 for instance. Mississippi, Nebraska, and Arizona. 00:25:22.819 --> 00:25:25.440 That's the only people that contribute less than 00:25:25.440 --> 00:25:27.259 us. Than Washington State to public defense. 00:25:27.440 --> 00:25:29.799 And if you think about the urban centers in those 00:25:29.799 --> 00:25:32.339 particular states, it's not the same kind of 00:25:32.339 --> 00:25:34.079 revenue that a place like Seattle generates. 00:25:34.079 --> 00:25:36.640 No, not by any means. Yeah, it's very interesting. 00:25:36.759 --> 00:25:41.069 Well, Curtis. Thanks for coming by. I know there's 00:25:41.069 --> 00:25:43.230 a lot more that you're working on, and we'll 00:25:43.230 --> 00:25:44.990 have you back, and we'll talk about some really 00:25:44.990 --> 00:25:48.069 exciting land use and permitting stuff. I can't 00:25:48.069 --> 00:25:51.309 wait. Just a teaser for the listeners out there. 00:25:52.430 --> 00:25:56.250 But you try to hold up during the session, okay? 00:25:56.450 --> 00:25:58.250 Okay. All right. Don't let it knock your socks 00:25:58.250 --> 00:26:01.309 off. Okay. All right. Thanks, Paul. You bet. 00:26:03.789 --> 00:26:06.329 Thanks for tuning in to County Connection. Stay 00:26:06.329 --> 00:26:08.150 in the loop by subscribing to us through your 00:26:08.150 --> 00:26:10.490 preferred podcasting app and following us on 00:26:10.490 --> 00:26:13.430 LinkedIn, Facebook and Instagram. And don't forget 00:26:13.430 --> 00:26:15.589 to join the hub, your go to source for the latest 00:26:15.589 --> 00:26:17.730 news and updates from the Washington State Association 00:26:17.730 --> 00:26:20.430 of Counties. Until next time, stay connected 00:26:20.430 --> 00:26:21.410 and stay informed.