WEBVTT

00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:02.259
if you hug a tree the right way, does its vibrations

00:00:02.259 --> 00:00:05.379
pick you? I don't know. Obviously the Lorax.

00:00:06.299 --> 00:00:09.859
Yes. The Lorax, the world famous Lorax brought

00:00:09.859 --> 00:00:15.000
to you by Dr. Seuss and friends. Welcome to County

00:00:15.000 --> 00:00:17.280
Connection, the official podcast of the Washington

00:00:17.280 --> 00:00:19.660
State Association of Counties, where we dive

00:00:19.660 --> 00:00:21.820
into the legislative issues shaping the future

00:00:21.820 --> 00:00:24.260
of our communities. From budgets to public safety,

00:00:24.440 --> 00:00:27.059
infrastructure to elections, we'll break down

00:00:27.059 --> 00:00:29.699
what's happening in Olympia and how it impacts

00:00:29.699 --> 00:00:32.320
counties from across the Evergreen State. Stay

00:00:32.320 --> 00:00:35.259
informed, stay engaged, and join us as we amplify

00:00:35.259 --> 00:00:41.340
the voice of Washington's 39 counties. Welcome

00:00:41.340 --> 00:00:42.920
back, everybody, to the County Connection podcast,

00:00:43.320 --> 00:00:45.119
the official podcast of the Washington State

00:00:45.119 --> 00:00:47.420
Association of Counties. I'm Paul Jewell, your

00:00:47.420 --> 00:00:50.039
host and government relations director for the

00:00:50.039 --> 00:00:53.079
association. I'm joined today in the studio,

00:00:53.159 --> 00:00:56.420
this fantastic, amazing studio here in downtown

00:00:56.420 --> 00:00:59.880
Olympia at the WASAC office by Washington State's

00:00:59.880 --> 00:01:02.780
own public lands commissioner. Dave Upthegrove.

00:01:02.859 --> 00:01:04.799
Dave, thanks for joining us. It's about time

00:01:04.799 --> 00:01:06.500
you got here. We've been trying to get you for

00:01:06.500 --> 00:01:08.359
a while now. How are things? It's been a busy

00:01:08.359 --> 00:01:10.840
year. I'm excited to finally get in here. Yeah,

00:01:10.939 --> 00:01:13.560
you've been very busy. It has been a busy year.

00:01:13.599 --> 00:01:15.799
And here we are. We're almost at the end of it.

00:01:15.840 --> 00:01:17.599
It's already December, for goodness sakes. And

00:01:17.599 --> 00:01:19.840
we're looking down the barrel of a brand new

00:01:19.840 --> 00:01:23.180
legislative session in 2026. There's a lot happening

00:01:23.180 --> 00:01:26.060
and a lot going on. What are you looking forward

00:01:26.060 --> 00:01:30.379
to as you look towards 2026? Oh, personally,

00:01:30.459 --> 00:01:32.159
I'm looking forward to taking care of my health,

00:01:32.239 --> 00:01:37.000
my life -work balance. This job can eat at your

00:01:37.000 --> 00:01:39.219
soul. Have you got a New Year's resolution already

00:01:39.219 --> 00:01:42.680
picked out? No, but it's going to involve exercise

00:01:42.680 --> 00:01:46.280
and nutrition probably. You and 70 % of the rest

00:01:46.280 --> 00:01:48.799
of the population. I used to have a gym membership.

00:01:49.760 --> 00:01:52.819
Now my wife and I have some gym equipment at

00:01:52.819 --> 00:01:55.120
home that we go to. We kind of did that during

00:01:55.120 --> 00:01:56.900
the pandemic like everybody else, right? When

00:01:56.900 --> 00:02:00.909
you couldn't go to the gym. I used to hate January.

00:02:01.150 --> 00:02:05.290
Oh, my gosh. I hated January. Usually right through

00:02:05.290 --> 00:02:08.169
about the first week of February, it was just

00:02:08.169 --> 00:02:09.610
packed in there. And then it was like someone

00:02:09.610 --> 00:02:12.110
turned the switch off and everybody just went

00:02:12.110 --> 00:02:14.889
away. But I hope it works out for you. Yes. And

00:02:14.889 --> 00:02:17.449
it is. I think of it as work related because

00:02:17.449 --> 00:02:21.610
it really does impact, you know, my energy levels,

00:02:21.770 --> 00:02:24.590
my productivity when I'm getting sleep and dealing

00:02:24.590 --> 00:02:28.020
with stress and eating well. moving, getting

00:02:28.020 --> 00:02:30.400
a little bit of exercise, I find I get a lot

00:02:30.400 --> 00:02:32.159
more done. Oh, and you feel better too. Yeah,

00:02:32.159 --> 00:02:35.599
absolutely. And this is a job where there's more

00:02:35.599 --> 00:02:37.979
demands on my time than I'm used to. I came out

00:02:37.979 --> 00:02:40.039
of county government. I thought I was busy as

00:02:40.039 --> 00:02:42.280
a county council member, but this has been a

00:02:42.280 --> 00:02:43.620
whole different experience. Well, we're going

00:02:43.620 --> 00:02:45.180
to talk about that. And in fact, I want to dive

00:02:45.180 --> 00:02:48.719
into that right away. But I'll give you a tip.

00:02:49.039 --> 00:02:51.240
And the tip that I'm going to give you is what

00:02:51.240 --> 00:02:53.479
my doctor told me when I was a county commissioner.

00:02:53.599 --> 00:02:56.759
He says, elected officials should never get their

00:02:56.759 --> 00:02:58.599
blood pressure taken while they're in office.

00:02:59.680 --> 00:03:02.219
It's just not allowed. It's my cholesterol I'm

00:03:02.219 --> 00:03:05.000
worried about, actually. The truth is you probably

00:03:05.000 --> 00:03:07.620
should have those things monitored a lot more

00:03:07.620 --> 00:03:09.639
closely while you're in public office. Well,

00:03:09.719 --> 00:03:13.719
Dave, I'm sorry, Commissioner Up the Grove, first

00:03:13.719 --> 00:03:17.819
of all... Public lands commissioner is a statewide

00:03:17.819 --> 00:03:19.800
elected position. It's partisan in Washington

00:03:19.800 --> 00:03:21.439
State. And you are the head of the Department

00:03:21.439 --> 00:03:23.300
of Natural Resources. I just want people to know

00:03:23.300 --> 00:03:25.620
that for our listeners, if they're not familiar

00:03:25.620 --> 00:03:28.479
with the position itself. But that's what you

00:03:28.479 --> 00:03:31.479
do. You basically run the department that manages

00:03:31.479 --> 00:03:33.460
the public lands that are owned by the citizens

00:03:33.460 --> 00:03:36.370
of Washington State, right? Absolutely. And it's

00:03:36.370 --> 00:03:38.789
a little bit of a strange construct. We're one

00:03:38.789 --> 00:03:41.689
of only a handful of states that elects their

00:03:41.689 --> 00:03:44.150
lands commissioner or elects the person who runs

00:03:44.150 --> 00:03:45.729
the Department of Natural Resources. I think

00:03:45.729 --> 00:03:48.610
it's part of that populist West Coast. Yeah,

00:03:48.669 --> 00:03:50.849
we're kind of unique in that regard. You're a

00:03:50.849 --> 00:03:53.490
former legislator. You mentioned that. But more

00:03:53.490 --> 00:03:55.509
importantly, you gave up the greatest job in

00:03:55.509 --> 00:03:57.770
the world to take this job, which, of course,

00:03:57.770 --> 00:03:59.349
was a county council member. I don't know why

00:03:59.349 --> 00:04:00.689
you would ever give that up. And I'm sure our

00:04:00.689 --> 00:04:03.430
listeners are baffled. But why don't you tell

00:04:03.430 --> 00:04:06.129
us, first of all, why you would give up the greatest

00:04:06.129 --> 00:04:08.550
job in the world. And second of all, what interested

00:04:08.550 --> 00:04:11.110
you enough in being the public lands commissioner

00:04:11.110 --> 00:04:13.930
that you decided to run for office? County council

00:04:13.930 --> 00:04:18.529
is a good gig, as they say. But I was in my third

00:04:18.529 --> 00:04:22.310
term and I had already concluded that that was

00:04:22.310 --> 00:04:24.629
enough. You know, there's time for a new generation

00:04:24.629 --> 00:04:27.870
of leadership. King County is bogged down in

00:04:27.870 --> 00:04:30.350
a morass of challenges with criminal justice,

00:04:30.610 --> 00:04:34.560
behavioral health. All the things, all the things

00:04:34.560 --> 00:04:36.420
that we talk about right here on this podcast.

00:04:36.600 --> 00:04:39.660
And I felt like we were on a treadmill, putting

00:04:39.660 --> 00:04:42.040
money into things and not getting anywhere. And

00:04:42.040 --> 00:04:43.800
I thought, you know, it's time for, let someone

00:04:43.800 --> 00:04:47.800
else come have a crack at this. And my life's

00:04:47.800 --> 00:04:49.720
passion and what led me to public service in

00:04:49.720 --> 00:04:51.540
the first place were environment and natural

00:04:51.540 --> 00:04:57.120
resource issues. Starting as a... I spent all

00:04:57.120 --> 00:04:59.560
my summers in high school and college working

00:04:59.560 --> 00:05:01.560
at a Boy Scout summer camp and running their

00:05:01.560 --> 00:05:04.319
ecology program out on the Hood Canal. And that

00:05:04.319 --> 00:05:07.220
led to my academic studies in environmental science

00:05:07.220 --> 00:05:09.620
and biology and later a graduate certificate

00:05:09.620 --> 00:05:13.300
in energy policy. Yeah, you graduated with a

00:05:13.300 --> 00:05:15.079
bachelor's degree in environmental science, right?

00:05:15.220 --> 00:05:18.300
Yeah. What school did you go to? UC Boulder,

00:05:18.519 --> 00:05:21.540
University of Colorado. Okay. I wasn't sure what

00:05:21.540 --> 00:05:24.290
I wanted to do at the time. And so I wanted to

00:05:24.290 --> 00:05:26.970
go to a big school, and I was 18 years old and

00:05:26.970 --> 00:05:29.470
loved to ski at the time. Well, Boulder is beautiful.

00:05:29.930 --> 00:05:31.689
It turned out to be a great experience. Yeah.

00:05:31.730 --> 00:05:35.069
Really gorgeous campus, good science programs

00:05:35.069 --> 00:05:37.730
there. I don't know if it was like that then,

00:05:37.829 --> 00:05:39.670
but now, you know, they have a ton of really

00:05:39.670 --> 00:05:42.560
good craft breweries down there as well. I wouldn't

00:05:42.560 --> 00:05:45.360
know, of course. Well, none of us would, but

00:05:45.360 --> 00:05:47.560
it's what I hear. I've heard it. A friend told

00:05:47.560 --> 00:05:50.500
me. Yes, I was on the Coors Light five -year

00:05:50.500 --> 00:05:53.160
plan. It took me an extra year to get out of

00:05:53.160 --> 00:05:57.740
there. Well, at least you went with light. And

00:05:57.740 --> 00:05:59.220
then when I ended up getting involved in public

00:05:59.220 --> 00:06:01.800
service, I always gravitated towards those issues.

00:06:01.939 --> 00:06:05.810
In the legislature, I... gravitated towards the

00:06:05.810 --> 00:06:07.850
natural resource issues and served as chair of

00:06:07.850 --> 00:06:09.750
the house environment committee. Same at King

00:06:09.750 --> 00:06:12.649
County. Did you feel like you didn't have enough

00:06:12.649 --> 00:06:15.089
of that at King County when you were working

00:06:15.089 --> 00:06:16.850
as a council member, you didn't get to work on

00:06:16.850 --> 00:06:18.689
enough of those issues. I loved what we got to

00:06:18.689 --> 00:06:20.750
work on. I found this to a lot of people, this

00:06:20.750 --> 00:06:22.810
is boring, but I took over the leadership of

00:06:22.810 --> 00:06:25.329
the King County flood control district. And that's

00:06:25.329 --> 00:06:28.850
where I found. I could satisfy my intellectual

00:06:28.850 --> 00:06:31.810
curiosity and dive into these complex issues

00:06:31.810 --> 00:06:34.990
with the Green River flew through the heart of

00:06:34.990 --> 00:06:38.910
my district. And we had all very similar issues.

00:06:39.029 --> 00:06:43.889
We had threatened Chinook salmon. We had Muckleshoot

00:06:43.889 --> 00:06:47.389
tribal treaty rights. We had municipal governments

00:06:47.389 --> 00:06:49.949
with regulatory authority, a flood district with

00:06:49.949 --> 00:06:52.350
responsibilities to provide flood protection,

00:06:52.529 --> 00:06:55.939
a county with an agenda of its own. A lot of

00:06:55.939 --> 00:06:58.699
private properties along the river. Well, I think

00:06:58.699 --> 00:07:00.199
a lot of people don't necessarily understand

00:07:00.199 --> 00:07:02.139
when you're dealing with flood control solutions,

00:07:02.379 --> 00:07:04.420
there's a lot of natural resource -based solutions

00:07:04.420 --> 00:07:06.980
that you can employ. It's not all just dikes

00:07:06.980 --> 00:07:10.759
and levees and stormwater drainage. There's a

00:07:10.759 --> 00:07:14.019
lot of side channel reconnection and floodplain

00:07:14.019 --> 00:07:18.110
reconnection. You know, habitat restoration and

00:07:18.110 --> 00:07:19.930
other things like that that can actually go a

00:07:19.930 --> 00:07:23.470
long ways towards reducing downstream and upstream

00:07:23.470 --> 00:07:26.370
flood risk. If you have things and, you know,

00:07:26.370 --> 00:07:29.009
if you can pinpoint kind of the right places

00:07:29.009 --> 00:07:31.189
to do that kind of restoration type work. And

00:07:31.189 --> 00:07:35.649
that was the challenge. And I moved us away from

00:07:35.649 --> 00:07:39.930
rock walls into. you know, more setbacks. But

00:07:39.930 --> 00:07:42.629
the two challenges we face in a more highly urbanized

00:07:42.629 --> 00:07:45.230
area, such as the lower green, lower and middle

00:07:45.230 --> 00:07:47.670
green, is most of that's private property. Yeah.

00:07:47.750 --> 00:07:50.189
And more urbanized, right? Yep. And so if you

00:07:50.189 --> 00:07:52.170
are going to do a setback, you're talking about

00:07:52.170 --> 00:07:54.290
either using eminent domain, which I'm not a

00:07:54.290 --> 00:07:58.629
fan of, or very expensive acquisition costs.

00:07:58.769 --> 00:08:03.230
Yeah. And so the costs compared to a brick wall

00:08:03.230 --> 00:08:09.360
would skyrocket. Often the cities resisted because

00:08:09.360 --> 00:08:10.839
it didn't necessarily meet their plans. They

00:08:10.839 --> 00:08:13.699
don't want to lose nine parking spots at REI

00:08:13.699 --> 00:08:15.699
or whatever it might be, and you'd run into economic

00:08:15.699 --> 00:08:19.699
conflict. So it was a good practice ground for

00:08:19.699 --> 00:08:21.899
this job where there were lots of competing interests,

00:08:22.199 --> 00:08:25.240
interesting overlapping governmental responsibilities.

00:08:25.860 --> 00:08:29.300
And so I was kind of sad to leave that. Actually,

00:08:29.319 --> 00:08:31.480
that was the piece I missed from the county.

00:08:31.860 --> 00:08:34.460
Well, let's talk about the transition then from

00:08:34.460 --> 00:08:37.940
going from the county. to this job. It's statewide,

00:08:38.279 --> 00:08:40.659
so you had to run statewide. You're in charge

00:08:40.659 --> 00:08:44.500
of a state agency, but it's a lot more than that,

00:08:44.539 --> 00:08:46.980
right? You have the direct responsibility for

00:08:46.980 --> 00:08:51.600
managing public lands. from so many different

00:08:51.600 --> 00:08:54.620
perspectives. You know, there's the money -making

00:08:54.620 --> 00:08:57.519
piece for the trust lands, right? There's the

00:08:57.519 --> 00:09:00.759
recreation piece. There's the conservation and

00:09:00.759 --> 00:09:03.600
environmental piece. There's the tidal piece,

00:09:03.879 --> 00:09:07.039
right? The marine waters piece. There's the riverine

00:09:07.039 --> 00:09:09.759
environment and the salmon protection and restoration

00:09:09.759 --> 00:09:13.059
piece. But you guys actually handle the statewide

00:09:13.059 --> 00:09:15.399
survey requirements and rules or something, don't

00:09:15.399 --> 00:09:18.580
you? We house the Washington Geologic Survey.

00:09:18.659 --> 00:09:21.639
Okay. name of the geology division i don't know

00:09:21.639 --> 00:09:24.179
to what degree we draw those boundary lines or

00:09:24.179 --> 00:09:26.220
not okay something that i haven't encountered

00:09:26.220 --> 00:09:28.059
in my first year yeah it's well it's a little

00:09:28.059 --> 00:09:30.080
it's something that's a little bit more obscure

00:09:30.080 --> 00:09:32.860
uh compared to kind of the headline grabbing

00:09:32.860 --> 00:09:35.320
things that dnr does that's for sure we do the

00:09:35.320 --> 00:09:37.980
board of natural resources which i chair does

00:09:37.980 --> 00:09:41.019
handle geographic names in fact our board meeting

00:09:41.019 --> 00:09:43.980
today we named two different creeks miller creek

00:09:43.980 --> 00:09:50.029
and hold on shadow something close wells Mills?

00:09:50.029 --> 00:09:53.169
Mills. Mills, yes. Mills Creek, named after a

00:09:53.169 --> 00:09:55.250
historic family. And then the other was named

00:09:55.250 --> 00:09:57.889
after some geographic features. So there's a

00:09:57.889 --> 00:09:59.909
committee that advises us on that made up of

00:09:59.909 --> 00:10:01.090
Republicans. That was an interesting part of

00:10:01.090 --> 00:10:04.009
the meeting. Let's talk about kind of in that

00:10:04.009 --> 00:10:08.000
transition. What do you hope to achieve as public

00:10:08.000 --> 00:10:10.779
lands commissioner, knowing that you've got a

00:10:10.779 --> 00:10:12.580
ton of responsibility, you also have a ton of

00:10:12.580 --> 00:10:15.240
resources that you oversee, and they're quite

00:10:15.240 --> 00:10:17.740
varied. A lot of people don't understand that

00:10:17.740 --> 00:10:21.279
the public lands commissioner also handles the

00:10:21.279 --> 00:10:24.759
leases for... Tide lands for geoduck farms, right?

00:10:25.000 --> 00:10:27.059
I mean, that's actually a fairly good -sized

00:10:27.059 --> 00:10:30.159
part of the job. It's really varied out there.

00:10:30.299 --> 00:10:32.519
You've got your hands in a lot of different places.

00:10:33.179 --> 00:10:36.519
When you kind of looked at this job, what was

00:10:36.519 --> 00:10:38.899
your vision for what you'd like to achieve as

00:10:38.899 --> 00:10:40.820
public lands commissioner? I'm going to sound

00:10:40.820 --> 00:10:42.960
like a politician a little bit. Well, you are

00:10:42.960 --> 00:10:45.860
a politician. I really laid out three big picture

00:10:45.860 --> 00:10:48.059
goals, and they evolve and change as I'm in the

00:10:48.059 --> 00:10:52.340
office. One is, at the core of my values, is

00:10:52.340 --> 00:10:55.080
doing more to protect clean air, clean water,

00:10:55.220 --> 00:10:58.059
habitat, make sure we're living up to that responsibility

00:10:58.059 --> 00:11:02.000
to be sustainable, manage these public lands

00:11:02.000 --> 00:11:05.059
in the public interest. A second interest of

00:11:05.059 --> 00:11:07.220
mine has been expanding the recreational opportunities

00:11:07.220 --> 00:11:10.539
on our public lands so more people can get out

00:11:10.539 --> 00:11:14.659
and enjoy the public lands. You're hunting, fishing,

00:11:15.100 --> 00:11:18.399
backpacking, mountain biking, ORVing, target

00:11:18.399 --> 00:11:21.500
shooting, you name it. Public lands belong to

00:11:21.500 --> 00:11:24.019
we the people. And I want to make sure they're

00:11:24.019 --> 00:11:27.179
accessible. And we do that in a way that obviously

00:11:27.179 --> 00:11:30.320
is respectful of the ecology and of cultural

00:11:30.320 --> 00:11:34.879
sites of tribes. And then the third is I want

00:11:34.879 --> 00:11:36.600
to make sure we're doing everything we can to

00:11:36.600 --> 00:11:38.519
strengthen and improve our wildfire prevention

00:11:38.519 --> 00:11:40.820
and response efforts. That's a big part of the

00:11:40.820 --> 00:11:47.419
agency is overseeing that. I took office at a

00:11:47.419 --> 00:11:50.940
kind of a crappy time. Just as I was taking office.

00:11:51.080 --> 00:11:53.600
Crappy is a technical term? Yes. I'm trying to

00:11:53.600 --> 00:11:56.500
use Boy Scout language. That sounds great. It's

00:11:56.500 --> 00:12:01.259
not too bad. But the state had been in a wash

00:12:01.259 --> 00:12:04.100
in funds for a while. Yeah, that's true. It allowed

00:12:04.100 --> 00:12:06.779
the department to do a lot of expanding and new

00:12:06.779 --> 00:12:09.740
things. And right about the time I took office,

00:12:09.759 --> 00:12:12.799
the state budget situation took a nosedive, huge

00:12:12.799 --> 00:12:15.519
nosedive. So I like to point out my predecessor

00:12:15.519 --> 00:12:17.700
had a slogan that was on the wall of her office

00:12:17.700 --> 00:12:20.690
and it was. Do epic shit, if we can say that

00:12:20.690 --> 00:12:22.789
word on this podcast. We can, yeah. Okay, good.

00:12:22.990 --> 00:12:25.870
It's kind of like HBO, only not quite. It's like

00:12:25.870 --> 00:12:28.710
HBO really, really light. Okay, good. That's

00:12:28.710 --> 00:12:31.509
about as bad as I get. I think my tenure is going

00:12:31.509 --> 00:12:33.669
to be marked somewhat by the opposite. I'm going

00:12:33.669 --> 00:12:35.850
to be leading this agency and am leading this

00:12:35.850 --> 00:12:39.129
agency through a time of fiscal constraint. So

00:12:39.129 --> 00:12:43.269
some of these big ideas, big expansions of recreational

00:12:43.269 --> 00:12:47.129
opportunities and facilities, increasing. what

00:12:47.129 --> 00:12:49.350
we're doing for wildfire response and prevention

00:12:49.350 --> 00:12:52.730
may not be achievable. And it's more about how

00:12:52.730 --> 00:12:56.809
do we do better with what we have? How do we

00:12:56.809 --> 00:12:59.190
maximize the resources we have? How do we maintain

00:12:59.190 --> 00:13:02.570
and improve morale at an agency and help maintain

00:13:02.570 --> 00:13:04.809
our core mission and support the people there?

00:13:06.210 --> 00:13:09.750
I think it's looking and feeling like my time

00:13:09.750 --> 00:13:11.529
is going to be very different than maybe I imagined

00:13:11.529 --> 00:13:14.149
when I ran for it and had sort of some of these

00:13:14.149 --> 00:13:20.580
broader... that take money to accomplish. So

00:13:20.580 --> 00:13:23.039
it wouldn't be the first time that I've talked

00:13:23.039 --> 00:13:25.559
to someone who got elected and said, well, I

00:13:25.559 --> 00:13:30.100
wanted to do X, but I ended up having to do A,

00:13:30.200 --> 00:13:32.899
B, C, and D instead because circumstances change.

00:13:33.019 --> 00:13:35.740
And you're right. I mean, the last few years,

00:13:35.879 --> 00:13:42.950
the last decade really, have seen really... Almost

00:13:42.950 --> 00:13:45.730
unparalleled growth, revenue -wise for the state.

00:13:47.049 --> 00:13:51.659
Good times all around. And a whole... bunch,

00:13:51.659 --> 00:13:54.960
a whole slew of new revenue sources that they've

00:13:54.960 --> 00:13:57.379
been able to deploy in many different areas,

00:13:57.600 --> 00:14:00.159
right? Whether it's CCA dollars or cannabis revenue

00:14:00.159 --> 00:14:03.480
or, you know, you name it. There's a bunch of

00:14:03.480 --> 00:14:05.299
new money out there that a decade ago they didn't

00:14:05.299 --> 00:14:08.440
have that they have today. And we saw a lot of

00:14:08.440 --> 00:14:10.320
growth in a lot of places and DNR was one of

00:14:10.320 --> 00:14:12.039
them. And there were some really important areas

00:14:12.039 --> 00:14:15.080
that DNR grew in and I want to talk about some

00:14:15.080 --> 00:14:18.620
of those today. Last year was a real wake -up

00:14:18.620 --> 00:14:21.559
call, I think, for many legislators who've been

00:14:21.559 --> 00:14:24.919
in office for a decade, but not more than a decade,

00:14:25.120 --> 00:14:27.720
because they hadn't seen tough financial times.

00:14:27.759 --> 00:14:29.559
They weren't here during the Great Recession.

00:14:29.860 --> 00:14:32.799
I think all of us thought it was going to really

00:14:32.799 --> 00:14:35.200
change during COVID, but that didn't happen because

00:14:35.200 --> 00:14:37.679
there was a lot of federal money that came in

00:14:37.679 --> 00:14:41.799
and bailed everybody out. created even greater

00:14:41.799 --> 00:14:45.059
expectations and higher levels of revenue than

00:14:45.059 --> 00:14:49.340
we would have seen had it not been for the pandemic

00:14:49.340 --> 00:14:52.799
and those federal dollars. You mentioned sustainability,

00:14:53.200 --> 00:14:56.720
recreation, wildfire. I haven't heard you talk

00:14:56.720 --> 00:14:58.559
about recreation much before. That's kind of

00:14:58.559 --> 00:15:02.200
a new one for me. But I can appreciate that maybe

00:15:02.200 --> 00:15:04.279
I just missed it. But you've talked a lot about

00:15:04.279 --> 00:15:06.299
sustainability. You've talked a lot about climate

00:15:06.299 --> 00:15:10.690
change. You've talked a lot about how public

00:15:10.690 --> 00:15:13.570
lands can kind of fit into that whole, you know,

00:15:13.590 --> 00:15:16.389
climate battle sort of thing. And of course,

00:15:16.389 --> 00:15:18.649
wildfire, if you're, if you're not talking about

00:15:18.649 --> 00:15:21.289
wildfire as commissioner of public lands, you're

00:15:21.289 --> 00:15:23.330
really missing the boat, right? I think we can

00:15:23.330 --> 00:15:25.690
both agree on that because it's a big issue for

00:15:25.690 --> 00:15:27.629
both Eastern Washington and Western Washington.

00:15:27.730 --> 00:15:29.529
And I'm hoping we'll talk about that a little

00:15:29.529 --> 00:15:33.529
bit more today too, but my members are also thinking

00:15:33.529 --> 00:15:36.429
a little bit differently than just those items.

00:15:36.549 --> 00:15:38.429
And I will tell you that. Let me clear. Those

00:15:38.429 --> 00:15:41.159
aren't. The only thing. Yeah, and I can appreciate

00:15:41.159 --> 00:15:42.460
that. That's what I want to talk about. That's

00:15:42.460 --> 00:15:44.299
very much what I say. They sound like a politician.

00:15:44.440 --> 00:15:47.519
Those are kind of three value -based. And counties,

00:15:47.679 --> 00:15:49.179
and that's who you're talking to here, right?

00:15:49.639 --> 00:15:51.340
Counties are very interested in all those issues.

00:15:51.440 --> 00:15:54.389
We want clean water, clean air. you know protected

00:15:54.389 --> 00:15:56.649
watersheds we want recreation it's good for our

00:15:56.649 --> 00:15:58.210
economy it's good for quality of life for our

00:15:58.210 --> 00:16:01.409
folks right it's a big part of you know many

00:16:01.409 --> 00:16:05.049
of our county's residents lifestyles is access

00:16:05.049 --> 00:16:07.450
to those public lands and you know the work that

00:16:07.450 --> 00:16:09.009
they do on those public lands or the recreation

00:16:09.009 --> 00:16:12.389
they do on those public lands and obviously wildfire

00:16:12.389 --> 00:16:14.570
really affects our communities and we're very

00:16:14.570 --> 00:16:16.590
in tune to that and have been for several years

00:16:17.559 --> 00:16:19.639
But the other piece for us, you know, the public

00:16:19.639 --> 00:16:22.139
lands are really important with regard to is

00:16:22.139 --> 00:16:25.419
our economies. You know, there's I have a saying

00:16:25.419 --> 00:16:32.179
that sounds a little sarcastic, I'll admit. But,

00:16:32.279 --> 00:16:34.360
you know, the state of Washington is more than

00:16:34.360 --> 00:16:36.580
what you can see from the top of the space needle.

00:16:37.019 --> 00:16:40.159
And I say that because it feels like sometimes

00:16:40.159 --> 00:16:43.820
with a lot of legislators, they don't realize

00:16:43.820 --> 00:16:47.399
that. They think that the majority of Washington

00:16:47.399 --> 00:16:49.379
is this urban environment that's part of the

00:16:49.379 --> 00:16:51.480
greater Puget Sound region. But the truth is

00:16:51.480 --> 00:16:55.139
the majority of Washington is not that. It's

00:16:55.139 --> 00:16:59.980
quite rural. And when you talk about a lot of

00:16:59.980 --> 00:17:04.740
the lands that you manage, there are real implications

00:17:04.740 --> 00:17:08.099
associated with that financially for many, many

00:17:08.099 --> 00:17:11.119
communities. And a lot of our counties look at

00:17:11.119 --> 00:17:14.450
that just as hard. as they look at these other

00:17:14.450 --> 00:17:18.470
things that you mentioned. I'm curious to know

00:17:18.470 --> 00:17:21.390
how you're planning to balance those priorities

00:17:21.390 --> 00:17:23.309
that you mentioned, those top three, which you've

00:17:23.309 --> 00:17:25.789
already said aren't the only ones. But with that

00:17:25.789 --> 00:17:28.470
other piece, that's really, really important

00:17:28.470 --> 00:17:30.970
to rural communities. And frankly, you have a

00:17:30.970 --> 00:17:33.329
legal responsibility towards as well, right?

00:17:33.430 --> 00:17:35.630
Which you're well aware of. Can you talk about

00:17:35.630 --> 00:17:37.900
that a little bit? Absolutely. I think that is

00:17:37.900 --> 00:17:40.700
a tension that's inherent in this job and every

00:17:40.700 --> 00:17:43.279
commissioner. And the way I think that's right,

00:17:43.380 --> 00:17:47.359
sort of describe it is, and people have different

00:17:47.359 --> 00:17:49.740
interpretations of some court decisions, but

00:17:49.740 --> 00:17:53.650
balancing a fiduciary interest to the trust with

00:17:53.650 --> 00:17:56.529
balancing the public interest, and often those

00:17:56.529 --> 00:17:59.490
are aligned. Are you an attorney? No. I am not

00:17:59.490 --> 00:18:01.329
an attorney either, and that makes us perfectly

00:18:01.329 --> 00:18:05.509
suited to discuss these issues, to argue over

00:18:05.509 --> 00:18:08.049
the legal implications of Supreme Court decisions.

00:18:08.589 --> 00:18:10.910
I wasn't sure this was going to happen, but now

00:18:10.910 --> 00:18:13.049
I'm super excited. Yeah, and I'm not ready to

00:18:13.049 --> 00:18:14.910
dive into that. It's more of a philosophical.

00:18:16.130 --> 00:18:20.970
It's a tension between generating revenue, which

00:18:20.970 --> 00:18:23.730
sometimes, not always, but sometimes conflicts

00:18:23.730 --> 00:18:27.849
with generating another public benefit. Maybe

00:18:27.849 --> 00:18:29.670
you don't want to cut down these trees because

00:18:29.670 --> 00:18:34.390
you want to put a park or a trail there. Balancing

00:18:34.390 --> 00:18:36.829
that, and we have a lot of clear guidance. Our

00:18:36.829 --> 00:18:41.349
state constitution requires us to manage certain

00:18:41.349 --> 00:18:43.269
of these lands that were given to us by the federal

00:18:43.269 --> 00:18:47.170
government in fiduciary trust. for the beneficiaries.

00:18:47.609 --> 00:18:50.269
Right. Now, just for the listeners at home who

00:18:50.269 --> 00:18:52.230
may not be familiar with that, what you're referring

00:18:52.230 --> 00:18:55.589
to is the lands that were granted at statehood

00:18:55.589 --> 00:18:58.750
to Washington by the federal government. And

00:18:58.750 --> 00:19:00.930
those lands were granted in the form of a trust.

00:19:01.069 --> 00:19:02.849
And the majority of those lands were provided

00:19:02.849 --> 00:19:06.410
for the public schools trust. Now, there are

00:19:06.410 --> 00:19:08.769
other trusts as well, like Capitol Campus, prisons,

00:19:09.170 --> 00:19:12.470
our state. State Forest Board lands, obviously.

00:19:12.670 --> 00:19:14.809
Right. Well, that's not, but those aren't constitutional.

00:19:15.400 --> 00:19:18.460
Those were a separate issue. But I'm thinking

00:19:18.460 --> 00:19:21.059
of the ones that were the federal grants, so

00:19:21.059 --> 00:19:23.460
our research universities, for instance. But

00:19:23.460 --> 00:19:26.099
the vast majority of it is for the state schools,

00:19:26.299 --> 00:19:30.539
right? Yep. And so we are constitutionally constrained

00:19:30.539 --> 00:19:34.829
in our management of those. We also have state

00:19:34.829 --> 00:19:37.750
laws that guide our work, both on those trusts

00:19:37.750 --> 00:19:41.849
and on other lands we manage. And then my work

00:19:41.849 --> 00:19:45.430
is also done under the framework of policies

00:19:45.430 --> 00:19:49.410
adopted by the Board of Natural Resources. So

00:19:49.410 --> 00:19:52.049
there's three layers there, constitutional responsibilities,

00:19:52.569 --> 00:19:55.589
statutory responsibilities, policies adopted

00:19:55.589 --> 00:19:58.829
by the board. You add to that, we have federal

00:19:58.829 --> 00:20:02.130
agreements. that we're required to comply with

00:20:02.130 --> 00:20:04.250
with the federal government in order to comply

00:20:04.250 --> 00:20:06.549
with federal laws like Endangered Species Act.

00:20:06.890 --> 00:20:10.390
And it creates a patchwork of responsibilities

00:20:10.390 --> 00:20:14.029
that in some ways constrain this position and

00:20:14.029 --> 00:20:20.049
guide how decisions are to be made. And in some

00:20:20.049 --> 00:20:23.809
ways, I'm testing some of those and introducing

00:20:23.809 --> 00:20:26.970
some new ideas for discussion. So you've been

00:20:26.970 --> 00:20:29.619
on the job almost a year now. Yep. So you're

00:20:29.619 --> 00:20:31.420
an expert in every single one of those, right?

00:20:32.819 --> 00:20:35.160
Every layer, every constraint, every agreement

00:20:35.160 --> 00:20:36.940
that you have out there. I'm feeling a lot of

00:20:36.940 --> 00:20:38.619
the constraints, I'll tell you that. I'll bet

00:20:38.619 --> 00:20:43.220
you are. I'll bet you are. It is cold and flu

00:20:43.220 --> 00:20:46.039
season, that's for sure. So sorry to the listeners

00:20:46.039 --> 00:20:50.220
if you hear a cough every now and again. So we

00:20:50.220 --> 00:20:52.779
talked about the trust lands. So you've got the

00:20:52.779 --> 00:20:54.619
federal trust lands. You mentioned there's also

00:20:54.619 --> 00:20:58.259
the state forest board lands, which are also

00:20:58.259 --> 00:21:00.240
known as the state forest transfer lands, which

00:21:00.240 --> 00:21:02.619
are also known as the county lands, essentially.

00:21:02.619 --> 00:21:04.319
Which make it all really complicated because

00:21:04.319 --> 00:21:07.039
calling the county lands the state forest board

00:21:07.039 --> 00:21:10.059
lands. Right. And, of course, you don't want

00:21:10.059 --> 00:21:11.759
to call them state forest board anymore because

00:21:11.759 --> 00:21:13.480
there is no state forest board, but that's what

00:21:13.480 --> 00:21:16.730
they were called back in the day. Now I think

00:21:16.730 --> 00:21:19.190
the official name is State Forest Transfer, right?

00:21:19.309 --> 00:21:21.150
And then there's the State Forest Purchase, which

00:21:21.150 --> 00:21:22.950
is two different categories of lands that benefit

00:21:22.950 --> 00:21:26.009
counties. Now those were granted to DNR through

00:21:26.009 --> 00:21:29.809
an agreement between the counties and the state

00:21:29.809 --> 00:21:32.829
that actually manifested itself as state law,

00:21:32.990 --> 00:21:35.950
statutory. Those were not under the Constitution.

00:21:36.089 --> 00:21:37.970
So they're kind of in another bucket by themselves,

00:21:38.250 --> 00:21:40.950
right? Correct. There conceivably could be more

00:21:40.950 --> 00:21:45.390
flexibility. if there was interest in the state

00:21:45.390 --> 00:21:47.430
in making changes to the management of those,

00:21:47.589 --> 00:21:51.769
it would be easier to the extent the legislature

00:21:51.769 --> 00:21:55.369
is easy than constitutional amendments. It would

00:21:55.369 --> 00:21:58.910
involve statutory amendments if there were ideas

00:21:58.910 --> 00:22:02.029
to manage them in different ways. Yeah, you don't,

00:22:02.029 --> 00:22:03.890
in other words, what you're saying is if you

00:22:03.890 --> 00:22:07.700
wanted to manage it. different than, say, you're

00:22:07.700 --> 00:22:11.000
managing the other trusts, it would be easier

00:22:11.000 --> 00:22:12.480
to make some changes because you just have to

00:22:12.480 --> 00:22:15.240
get the legislature to agree and pass a bill

00:22:15.240 --> 00:22:18.380
versus a constitutional amendment that would

00:22:18.380 --> 00:22:21.900
have to affect the other ones. And neither one

00:22:21.900 --> 00:22:23.700
of us are lawyers, but we both agree on that

00:22:23.700 --> 00:22:25.759
point, actually. We've done some research here

00:22:25.759 --> 00:22:27.940
at WASAC, and we think that's the case as well.

00:22:28.699 --> 00:22:31.019
And just for members that are out there that

00:22:31.019 --> 00:22:32.140
are listening. And I'm not proposing anything

00:22:32.140 --> 00:22:34.160
just right now. No, no, no. We're not going to

00:22:34.160 --> 00:22:36.859
talk about proposals today. But for members that

00:22:36.859 --> 00:22:38.380
are listening out there right now, the state

00:22:38.380 --> 00:22:40.640
forest lands that we're talking about that are

00:22:40.640 --> 00:22:42.640
the statutory ones are the ones that counties

00:22:42.640 --> 00:22:45.420
actually get the most money from. We actually

00:22:45.420 --> 00:22:48.180
get 75 % of any revenue that's derived from those

00:22:48.180 --> 00:22:50.160
lands, mostly through commercial timber harvest.

00:22:50.779 --> 00:22:52.880
That money goes straight to the county, but then

00:22:52.880 --> 00:22:57.180
it gets shared with, in most cases, junior taxing

00:22:57.180 --> 00:22:59.180
districts like the schools and the fire districts

00:22:59.180 --> 00:23:00.640
and the library districts and the hospitals,

00:23:00.759 --> 00:23:02.740
et cetera, just like any other property tax.

00:23:03.019 --> 00:23:05.259
And you get tax revenue, too. And we get tax

00:23:05.259 --> 00:23:09.259
revenue. So counties benefit a lot from these

00:23:09.259 --> 00:23:12.069
lands. With the state forest transfer lands,

00:23:12.150 --> 00:23:14.109
the state forest board lands, the ones I was

00:23:14.109 --> 00:23:16.769
just mentioning, we get 75 % of the revenue derived.

00:23:17.430 --> 00:23:21.819
We also get 4 % of the 5%. timber excise tax

00:23:21.819 --> 00:23:25.099
on those lands. But we get that on all lands

00:23:25.099 --> 00:23:28.400
that are harvested in Washington state, whether

00:23:28.400 --> 00:23:31.980
it's federal lands, state lands, or private timber

00:23:31.980 --> 00:23:34.440
lands, whether there are state forest lands or

00:23:34.440 --> 00:23:36.519
someone else's, meaning a different trust, right?

00:23:36.880 --> 00:23:39.619
And then, of course, there's the economic benefits

00:23:39.619 --> 00:23:41.880
associated with working lands in the community.

00:23:42.039 --> 00:23:44.339
So when people go to work, they buy gas, they

00:23:44.339 --> 00:23:46.619
buy supplies, they buy tools, they need their

00:23:46.619 --> 00:23:50.319
stuff repaired. If a mill locates, you know,

00:23:50.339 --> 00:23:52.660
in a community that's bringing in timber or other

00:23:52.660 --> 00:23:55.599
products, they hire people. Those people, you

00:23:55.599 --> 00:23:57.660
know, need houses. Those people need clothes.

00:23:57.839 --> 00:23:59.700
Those people need supplies. They need to live.

00:23:59.759 --> 00:24:01.880
They need schools, et cetera. This is what drives

00:24:01.880 --> 00:24:06.440
communities. And so not only is it the individual

00:24:06.440 --> 00:24:10.259
dollars that counties receive, but it's the induced,

00:24:10.519 --> 00:24:13.059
well, the direct, indirect, and induced economic

00:24:13.059 --> 00:24:15.259
impacts, which can actually be about 10 to 1.

00:24:15.720 --> 00:24:18.519
or more in some communities. So the real value

00:24:18.519 --> 00:24:21.000
is not just the direct dollars. It's the actual

00:24:21.000 --> 00:24:23.480
working lands. It's the actual occupations that

00:24:23.480 --> 00:24:25.660
are happening on these properties for many of

00:24:25.660 --> 00:24:28.400
our communities. And that's where some of this

00:24:28.400 --> 00:24:31.279
rub comes together, right? Absolutely. So how

00:24:31.279 --> 00:24:32.940
do you balance all that? I mean, what is your

00:24:32.940 --> 00:24:35.380
vision for balancing that? It's been something

00:24:35.380 --> 00:24:38.920
that every single public lands commissioner has

00:24:38.920 --> 00:24:42.319
struggled with. At varying degrees, right? It's

00:24:42.319 --> 00:24:45.880
not easy. I start with a premise that our world

00:24:45.880 --> 00:24:48.339
is changing. We're seeing the impacts of climate

00:24:48.339 --> 00:24:50.440
change all around us. We're seeing a rapid loss

00:24:50.440 --> 00:24:53.640
in biodiversity. And our management of our public

00:24:53.640 --> 00:24:57.400
lands needs to keep up with today. And DNR, Washington

00:24:57.400 --> 00:25:00.299
State Department of Natural Resources, I think

00:25:00.299 --> 00:25:02.680
has always led the way in our sustainable management.

00:25:02.700 --> 00:25:04.680
The lands under our management have been very

00:25:04.680 --> 00:25:10.869
sustainably. and using some of the best forest

00:25:10.869 --> 00:25:13.569
practices for environmental protection probably

00:25:13.569 --> 00:25:15.829
in the world. Yeah, you guys exceed state law

00:25:15.829 --> 00:25:18.470
in your forest practices. When you harvest, you

00:25:18.470 --> 00:25:22.069
go above and beyond what your own agency needs

00:25:22.069 --> 00:25:24.029
to enforce on private lands. Yep, and you add

00:25:24.029 --> 00:25:26.150
to it our habitat plans with the federal government,

00:25:26.289 --> 00:25:30.130
add additional prescriptions there. And I want

00:25:30.130 --> 00:25:34.470
us to continue to be leading the way. And I envision

00:25:34.470 --> 00:25:37.079
a strong, healthy... forest products industry

00:25:37.079 --> 00:25:40.180
in the state for generations to come. I think

00:25:40.180 --> 00:25:47.019
we'll always have healthy forest practices on

00:25:47.019 --> 00:25:50.680
our state lands. But I am interested in innovating

00:25:50.680 --> 00:25:53.099
and diversifying how we manage a small subset

00:25:53.099 --> 00:25:55.799
of some of our structurally complex older forests.

00:25:56.140 --> 00:25:59.940
And I think we can do this thoughtfully with

00:25:59.940 --> 00:26:04.380
input. And it isn't something that we alone can

00:26:04.380 --> 00:26:06.519
do. So let's unpack that for a minute because

00:26:06.519 --> 00:26:10.240
you just – you said a term or you said a series

00:26:10.240 --> 00:26:13.680
of words that I think is interesting. You called

00:26:13.680 --> 00:26:17.220
them structurally complex – excuse me, structurally

00:26:17.220 --> 00:26:20.019
complex older forests. Now, that's not a thing,

00:26:20.099 --> 00:26:23.980
right? Those are two things. Yeah, but from a

00:26:23.980 --> 00:26:26.819
regulatory standpoint, in Washington State, in

00:26:26.819 --> 00:26:29.680
forest practices, it's not a thing, right? You

00:26:29.680 --> 00:26:32.880
have – We have plantation forests. We have forest

00:26:32.880 --> 00:26:35.180
practices rules. The one thing that we do have

00:26:35.180 --> 00:26:38.900
for a term, right, is old growth. And we have

00:26:38.900 --> 00:26:42.319
goals for old growth. In law, at the agency and

00:26:42.319 --> 00:26:44.619
our policies, we have structurally complex and

00:26:44.619 --> 00:26:47.460
we have older. Okay, so that's a really interesting

00:26:47.460 --> 00:26:50.019
point that I wanted you to hit on. Let's kind

00:26:50.019 --> 00:26:52.180
of talk about what the difference is. Sure. Because

00:26:52.180 --> 00:26:54.759
we have goals. I think everybody knows you can't

00:26:54.759 --> 00:26:57.039
touch old. old growth anymore. Yeah. Right? I

00:26:57.039 --> 00:26:59.940
mean, during the 70s and 80s, right, whether

00:26:59.940 --> 00:27:02.000
it was our forests or federal lands, I mean,

00:27:02.000 --> 00:27:05.119
that's what the timber wars were about was old

00:27:05.119 --> 00:27:06.920
growth and the cutting of old growth. And in

00:27:06.920 --> 00:27:08.619
some places in the world, they're still doing

00:27:08.619 --> 00:27:10.420
that. They're still cutting old growth north

00:27:10.420 --> 00:27:13.299
of us on the other side of the border, if I'm

00:27:13.299 --> 00:27:16.059
not mistaken. Right? But in Washington State,

00:27:16.180 --> 00:27:18.680
we don't cut old growth. Absolutely not. And

00:27:18.680 --> 00:27:20.799
it's been that way for a while. And in fact,

00:27:20.799 --> 00:27:24.759
you have a goal. as an agency, to create more

00:27:24.759 --> 00:27:28.140
old growth over time. But lately, we've been

00:27:28.140 --> 00:27:30.579
hearing a lot about this structurally complex

00:27:30.579 --> 00:27:35.019
older forests. What is it? Why is it important?

00:27:35.500 --> 00:27:39.700
When foresters go out and survey a forest, they

00:27:39.700 --> 00:27:42.240
categorize it as to where is that forest along

00:27:42.240 --> 00:27:47.259
its stage of stand development. As forests age,

00:27:47.519 --> 00:27:50.599
they don't all do it in the same way, but the

00:27:50.599 --> 00:27:55.279
nature of the forest changes. You get, you know,

00:27:55.299 --> 00:28:00.460
the understructure changes, the mix of, you know,

00:28:00.460 --> 00:28:03.420
the mix of species changes. And foresters, we

00:28:03.420 --> 00:28:06.299
use a guide called Van Pelt's Guide. And the

00:28:06.299 --> 00:28:08.420
foresters... Named after an actual person. Yes.

00:28:10.079 --> 00:28:13.079
And forests are characterized at what stage of

00:28:13.079 --> 00:28:16.119
stand development they're in. I'm interested

00:28:16.119 --> 00:28:19.559
in... Making sure that at any moment in time,

00:28:19.619 --> 00:28:22.299
we're maintaining a mix of ages across the landscape.

00:28:23.160 --> 00:28:25.279
Why is that important? Because I think part of

00:28:25.279 --> 00:28:28.859
the definition of sustainability means sustaining

00:28:28.859 --> 00:28:31.119
the biodiversity. And sustaining the biodiversity

00:28:31.119 --> 00:28:34.680
means maintaining a diversity of stand types

00:28:34.680 --> 00:28:36.440
and structures. And I think if we're going to

00:28:36.440 --> 00:28:39.339
be economically sustainable, everyone knows we

00:28:39.339 --> 00:28:41.640
need to be ecologically sustainable. And for

00:28:41.640 --> 00:28:44.160
me, part of that is sustaining the diversity

00:28:44.160 --> 00:28:47.579
of stand structures. and types and it's been

00:28:47.579 --> 00:28:49.799
uh people debate whether it's called a goal it's

00:28:49.799 --> 00:28:53.539
been a desired outcome of our habitat plans with

00:28:53.539 --> 00:28:56.680
the federal government has been to get to achieve

00:28:56.680 --> 00:28:59.160
that through the lands that to achieve more of

00:28:59.160 --> 00:29:02.200
it yeah to try to get to about 10 to 15 percent

00:29:02.200 --> 00:29:05.420
is what was envisioned at the The conclusion

00:29:05.420 --> 00:29:08.480
of the habitat plan. And when you say 10 % to

00:29:08.480 --> 00:29:10.920
15%, 10 % to 15 % of what are total holdings?

00:29:10.940 --> 00:29:13.279
Of each planning, this is where it gets more

00:29:13.279 --> 00:29:20.220
complicated, each planning unit. Okay. As we

00:29:20.220 --> 00:29:24.059
do it, sometimes science is an art. Science is

00:29:24.059 --> 00:29:27.460
an art, not a science. Yeah. You can draw these

00:29:27.460 --> 00:29:30.500
geographic lines sort of arbitrarily at times,

00:29:30.559 --> 00:29:35.740
but our habitat plan. for the spotted owl envisioned

00:29:35.740 --> 00:29:37.440
that we would get there. I want to get us there

00:29:37.440 --> 00:29:40.619
sooner. I view it as a conservation strategy,

00:29:40.900 --> 00:29:44.920
not a preservation strategy. It's kind of about

00:29:44.920 --> 00:29:48.420
when do you cash in, for lack of a better term.

00:29:48.599 --> 00:29:53.059
I'm not looking at reducing our trust holdings,

00:29:53.059 --> 00:29:56.400
but I'm interested in helping us get to these

00:29:56.400 --> 00:30:01.420
stand structure outcomes faster. Why do you think

00:30:01.420 --> 00:30:04.230
that's important? I think... Part of how you

00:30:04.230 --> 00:30:07.450
sustain the complete biodiversity of a system

00:30:07.450 --> 00:30:12.890
is by sustaining the nature of the habitat itself

00:30:12.890 --> 00:30:16.069
and not just having younger forests or just having

00:30:16.069 --> 00:30:17.930
old growth forests. I think it's important to

00:30:17.930 --> 00:30:22.049
have a mix of those. Almost every scientific

00:30:22.049 --> 00:30:27.890
look at systems values diversity in it. A healthy

00:30:27.890 --> 00:30:31.650
ecosystem is diverse. watershed has a diversity

00:30:31.650 --> 00:30:36.690
right to it and i think we have um not only healthier

00:30:36.690 --> 00:30:41.730
um landscapes that can sustain and protect more

00:30:41.730 --> 00:30:44.109
biodiversity but i also think it's a way to ensure

00:30:44.109 --> 00:30:49.450
that economic stability you know the um not cutting

00:30:49.450 --> 00:30:53.059
those as heavy At this point, I always envisioned

00:30:53.059 --> 00:30:55.440
like, you know, you get to your 15 percent goal,

00:30:55.519 --> 00:30:57.400
you get to 16 percent, you're harvesting one

00:30:57.400 --> 00:30:59.980
percent. You're getting us to a stage where we're

00:30:59.980 --> 00:31:02.079
maintaining stand structure diversity across

00:31:02.079 --> 00:31:05.619
the landscape. So you've referred to the habitat

00:31:05.619 --> 00:31:07.759
plans a couple of times. I just want to make

00:31:07.759 --> 00:31:10.119
it clear that what you're talking about is what

00:31:10.119 --> 00:31:13.819
a lot of us call the HCP. We're not allowed to.

00:31:14.589 --> 00:31:16.750
use acronyms on this show without explaining

00:31:16.750 --> 00:31:19.789
what they are. So the HCP is the Habitat Conservation

00:31:19.789 --> 00:31:22.250
Plan, and they're in place for state forest lands,

00:31:22.490 --> 00:31:26.450
meaning the state trust lands, essentially, to

00:31:26.450 --> 00:31:29.150
protect different species, primarily the spotted

00:31:29.150 --> 00:31:32.670
owl, salmon, and then we have one in place for

00:31:32.670 --> 00:31:35.569
the marbled murrelet that was adopted in 2019

00:31:35.569 --> 00:31:39.150
as an addendum. Basically, it allows us to impact

00:31:39.150 --> 00:31:42.140
those species. as long as we're following this

00:31:42.140 --> 00:31:45.599
plan it's sort of in lieu of right saying okay

00:31:45.599 --> 00:31:48.200
you individual surveys every time we want to

00:31:48.200 --> 00:31:51.220
go do a timber sale to see if the species are

00:31:51.220 --> 00:31:53.319
on the landscape and then individual protection

00:31:53.319 --> 00:31:55.980
measures we have the we have a broader landscape

00:31:55.980 --> 00:31:59.039
scale type of plan right as long as we do this

00:31:59.039 --> 00:32:02.099
we're considered in compliance exactly but as

00:32:02.099 --> 00:32:05.220
part of that because you talk about you know

00:32:05.220 --> 00:32:07.619
wanting ecological diversity you talk about wanting

00:32:07.619 --> 00:32:11.710
variable age stands on the landscape, et cetera.

00:32:11.910 --> 00:32:15.029
As part of that, your own statistics. Now, I

00:32:15.029 --> 00:32:16.650
said I wasn't going to talk a lot about statistics,

00:32:16.809 --> 00:32:19.410
but this one I think you'll be familiar with.

00:32:19.809 --> 00:32:22.109
There's no gotcha here. But your own reports,

00:32:22.170 --> 00:32:25.410
your own statistics say at least 40 % of the

00:32:25.410 --> 00:32:28.789
land mass and acreage under the HCP is set aside

00:32:28.789 --> 00:32:34.890
from harvest. Can't be touched. On that 40 %

00:32:34.890 --> 00:32:43.089
of acreage lies 55 % of the timber total so 40

00:32:43.089 --> 00:32:46.430
of the land and over half of the timber already

00:32:46.430 --> 00:32:50.369
can't be harvested right now when the hcp is

00:32:50.369 --> 00:32:54.609
up it could right which is until what 20 70 years

00:32:54.609 --> 00:32:56.410
which in harvest time isn't that it's another

00:32:56.410 --> 00:32:58.470
50 years to go or something like that right but

00:32:58.470 --> 00:33:00.430
when we're talking trees that's not that yeah

00:33:00.430 --> 00:33:02.130
but thankfully you and i won't be talking about

00:33:02.130 --> 00:33:07.819
this then yes um But what my members will ask,

00:33:07.960 --> 00:33:10.079
and some of them ask, and I have members on all

00:33:10.079 --> 00:33:12.259
sides of this issue, right? And that's why I

00:33:12.259 --> 00:33:14.200
say counties are in this unique position to really

00:33:14.200 --> 00:33:16.500
be interested in all of these things. But what

00:33:16.500 --> 00:33:19.079
some of my folks will ask is, okay, we've already

00:33:19.079 --> 00:33:22.759
set aside 40 % of the acreage, 55 % of the trees.

00:33:23.299 --> 00:33:25.680
How much is enough and when is enough enough

00:33:25.680 --> 00:33:28.920
under these sorts of scenarios? When we're talking

00:33:28.920 --> 00:33:32.200
about multi -age stands, when we're talking about...

00:33:32.380 --> 00:33:34.019
conservation, when we're talking about habitat,

00:33:34.319 --> 00:33:36.240
when we're talking about diversity ecologically,

00:33:36.460 --> 00:33:41.299
how much more do we need? I would flip it. That's

00:33:41.299 --> 00:33:44.740
driving it as saying the motive is financial.

00:33:45.079 --> 00:33:47.779
I think to be financially sustainable, the first

00:33:47.779 --> 00:33:50.079
thing is, are we doing what's necessary to protect

00:33:50.079 --> 00:33:53.119
the climate and habitat? And I think we do a

00:33:53.119 --> 00:33:57.319
good job. I think we can do more to meet that

00:33:57.319 --> 00:34:01.839
goal. I also... don't think of this as I reject

00:34:01.839 --> 00:34:05.759
the term set aside it's about this is all about

00:34:05.759 --> 00:34:10.719
timing of of harvest and it's about you know

00:34:10.719 --> 00:34:12.739
we need to think multiple generations here we

00:34:12.739 --> 00:34:14.920
want to make sure this trust is delivering for

00:34:14.920 --> 00:34:18.980
generations to come and if we're choosing not

00:34:18.980 --> 00:34:20.739
to harvest something today it means it's available

00:34:20.739 --> 00:34:27.900
to harvest tomorrow and I think That also we're

00:34:27.900 --> 00:34:31.000
talking about a pretty small proportion relative

00:34:31.000 --> 00:34:34.079
to all of the forestry in the state and that

00:34:34.079 --> 00:34:36.920
there ought to be ways to meet those dual objectives

00:34:36.920 --> 00:34:40.880
of doing more habitat and climate and meeting

00:34:40.880 --> 00:34:46.940
these financial obligations. Okay. Can I press

00:34:46.940 --> 00:34:48.599
you on that a little bit more? Because that was

00:34:48.599 --> 00:34:50.780
a little roundabout. Yeah. Well, I mean, the

00:34:50.780 --> 00:34:54.750
idea, it's easy to say. I reject the premise,

00:34:55.030 --> 00:34:57.690
you know, and I don't want to come at it from

00:34:57.690 --> 00:35:01.409
that direction. But then you came right back

00:35:01.409 --> 00:35:03.789
and you said, well, it's just a little bit more,

00:35:03.949 --> 00:35:06.510
right? And we started out with a little bit.

00:35:07.469 --> 00:35:10.710
And pretty soon, you know, under the HCP, we

00:35:10.710 --> 00:35:14.889
were at 40%, right? 55 % of the timber. And now

00:35:14.889 --> 00:35:16.309
it's just a little bit more and it's just a little

00:35:16.309 --> 00:35:19.780
bit more and it's just a little bit more. You

00:35:19.780 --> 00:35:23.000
know, it feels, for some of my members who really

00:35:23.000 --> 00:35:25.880
come at it from an economic point of view, for

00:35:25.880 --> 00:35:27.780
them that feels like a death by a thousand cuts.

00:35:28.019 --> 00:35:30.940
On the other side, you know, the folks, the members

00:35:30.940 --> 00:35:33.219
that I have that come at it from an environmental

00:35:33.219 --> 00:35:35.400
point of view, they see it as just a little bit

00:35:35.400 --> 00:35:38.619
more. Again, it comes back to this balance question,

00:35:38.840 --> 00:35:40.960
right? I mean, how do we know? I don't want to

00:35:40.960 --> 00:35:43.579
sound snarky, but how much money is enough? Oh,

00:35:43.619 --> 00:35:46.940
that's a good question. Find a government who

00:35:46.940 --> 00:35:49.460
will ever tell you that they've got enough. Yeah,

00:35:49.460 --> 00:35:51.880
and it's how much it is always going to be a

00:35:51.880 --> 00:35:55.119
balance. And I just think... Shouldn't there

00:35:55.119 --> 00:35:56.840
be a goal or something, though, out there, a

00:35:56.840 --> 00:35:59.820
line that says, here's when we've achieved it?

00:36:01.300 --> 00:36:03.280
I don't know that you can ever, in a democratic

00:36:03.280 --> 00:36:06.400
society with elected bodies, and you may have

00:36:06.400 --> 00:36:09.460
someone, you have different legislatures, different

00:36:09.460 --> 00:36:11.820
elected commissioners, different board members.

00:36:13.059 --> 00:36:17.519
living in different times with different things

00:36:17.519 --> 00:36:20.619
happening around us in the world i don't think

00:36:20.619 --> 00:36:25.619
you can ever avoid continual adaptive management

00:36:25.619 --> 00:36:28.519
in this space i just think it will always be

00:36:28.519 --> 00:36:35.000
there and um and so we do have plans we have

00:36:35.000 --> 00:36:38.920
sustainable harvest targets that i'm committed

00:36:38.920 --> 00:36:43.489
to doing my best to meet and We develop those

00:36:43.489 --> 00:36:46.750
harvest targets through robust public processes,

00:36:46.889 --> 00:36:49.070
and we're updating those now. Yeah, you're starting

00:36:49.070 --> 00:36:50.949
with the eastern Washington one, right? Yeah,

00:36:51.010 --> 00:36:54.570
and if we had a what's the goal, what's the plan,

00:36:54.750 --> 00:36:59.190
it's those documents. It's the sustainable harvest

00:36:59.190 --> 00:37:06.090
calculation, and the policies inform that. So

00:37:06.090 --> 00:37:10.210
it is really a reflection of the adopted policies.

00:37:11.949 --> 00:37:14.809
and a lot of constraints again that we take the

00:37:14.809 --> 00:37:17.550
state laws we take these federal commitments

00:37:17.550 --> 00:37:20.150
and plans and everything and the and the adopted

00:37:20.150 --> 00:37:22.590
policies of the board and and those that the

00:37:22.590 --> 00:37:25.210
board wants to adopt and puts it in there so

00:37:25.210 --> 00:37:28.710
that really is what establishes but those are

00:37:28.710 --> 00:37:30.570
decadal they're 10 years if we're doing them

00:37:30.570 --> 00:37:32.769
on time and the agency's behind on that right

00:37:32.769 --> 00:37:35.969
we do it do you think that's long enough or do

00:37:35.969 --> 00:37:37.510
you think we should be thinking longer term than

00:37:37.510 --> 00:37:40.610
that now I think we have to be thinking longer

00:37:40.610 --> 00:37:46.489
term. It's challenging in, I think, in government,

00:37:46.769 --> 00:37:51.349
given, like I said, sort of the dynamic nature

00:37:51.349 --> 00:37:55.010
of it. We have sort of operational, I kind of

00:37:55.010 --> 00:37:56.750
think of it as three levels, and we as an agency

00:37:56.750 --> 00:37:58.469
plan this. There's operational, that's short

00:37:58.469 --> 00:38:00.710
term. What sales are coming to the board this

00:38:00.710 --> 00:38:04.309
year? How are we staffing it? What areas are

00:38:04.309 --> 00:38:06.989
specifically targeted? Then there's the tactical.

00:38:07.110 --> 00:38:10.070
I think we're okay on that. And that's our, we

00:38:10.070 --> 00:38:12.590
have a five -year tactical plan that says, okay,

00:38:12.630 --> 00:38:14.349
here's the timber sales we're envisioning over

00:38:14.349 --> 00:38:16.750
the next five years in order to hit our sustainable

00:38:16.750 --> 00:38:19.329
harvest calculation targets. And then there's

00:38:19.329 --> 00:38:23.710
that longer -term strategic look. And I think

00:38:23.710 --> 00:38:25.909
the sustainable harvest calculation gets at some

00:38:25.909 --> 00:38:31.030
of that. But I think... I think we always need

00:38:31.030 --> 00:38:32.710
to be thinking long -term ahead. I don't know

00:38:32.710 --> 00:38:34.989
how it gets embodied in a document or a plan

00:38:34.989 --> 00:38:39.329
as formally, but I think anyone who's in a decision

00:38:39.329 --> 00:38:40.630
-making position, whether you're a commissioner,

00:38:40.750 --> 00:38:44.010
a board member, a legislator, should be weighing

00:38:44.010 --> 00:38:45.769
the long -term consequences of their actions.

00:38:48.400 --> 00:38:50.599
I feel like the sustainable harvest calculation

00:38:50.599 --> 00:38:53.219
is something that we're going to be watching

00:38:53.219 --> 00:38:55.519
really closely over the next several years. And

00:38:55.519 --> 00:38:57.659
most of our members certainly haven't been through

00:38:57.659 --> 00:38:59.119
one because it's been a while, as you mentioned,

00:38:59.179 --> 00:39:01.440
since one's been done. So I don't want to go

00:39:01.440 --> 00:39:05.860
into that a lot. It's luring me in, though. No,

00:39:05.880 --> 00:39:07.780
and I'd love to comment on it, too. I think it

00:39:07.780 --> 00:39:09.159
is important. Yeah, it's definitely important.

00:39:09.280 --> 00:39:10.639
But I want to pivot a little bit because we only

00:39:10.639 --> 00:39:12.920
have so much time here. And we've really kind

00:39:12.920 --> 00:39:14.940
of gone down this road a little bit of some of

00:39:14.940 --> 00:39:16.960
your greater vision around sustainability and

00:39:16.960 --> 00:39:19.719
diversity and environmentalism. And I've pushed

00:39:19.719 --> 00:39:21.719
back on you a little bit around some of the economics.

00:39:21.860 --> 00:39:24.460
But let's switch gears a little because something

00:39:24.460 --> 00:39:26.840
that I really want to talk about is wildfire.

00:39:27.179 --> 00:39:31.139
and, you know, wildfire preparedness, wildfire

00:39:31.139 --> 00:39:34.900
management, et cetera. And one of the things

00:39:34.900 --> 00:39:39.019
that, one of the arguments that you make that,

00:39:39.059 --> 00:39:41.920
in my opinion, is really germane to wildfire

00:39:41.920 --> 00:39:45.119
is the diversity in the landscape, right, and

00:39:45.119 --> 00:39:47.260
the health of the forest ecosystem as a whole.

00:39:47.480 --> 00:39:51.280
You know, the plantation -type forest that is

00:39:51.280 --> 00:39:54.199
that old, you know, Prussian model of forest

00:39:54.199 --> 00:39:55.860
management, which I think that's actually where

00:39:55.860 --> 00:39:59.340
it comes from. I think, that creates, you know,

00:39:59.360 --> 00:40:04.019
this really efficient commercial forestry, almost

00:40:04.019 --> 00:40:09.639
crop, right? Single, you know, species. Monoculture.

00:40:09.840 --> 00:40:13.019
Yeah, monoculture, same, you know, all the same

00:40:13.019 --> 00:40:16.179
age stand, et cetera, et cetera. Great for maybe

00:40:16.179 --> 00:40:18.840
growing lumber, not so great for building a forest,

00:40:19.079 --> 00:40:23.210
right? And we know the forest. in its most natural

00:40:23.210 --> 00:40:26.730
state with multi -aged trees, mixed species,

00:40:27.170 --> 00:40:32.110
right? Open canopies, trunks that are larger

00:40:32.110 --> 00:40:35.789
and separated, right? Not overstocked and more

00:40:35.789 --> 00:40:40.170
resilient for fire, right? That actually need

00:40:40.170 --> 00:40:42.789
fire on the landscape, you know, to help sustain

00:40:42.789 --> 00:40:45.750
that sort of environment long -term. That is

00:40:45.750 --> 00:40:49.969
really what makes us a resilient landscape. for

00:40:49.969 --> 00:40:52.909
wildfire. And we've changed that, right? We've

00:40:52.909 --> 00:40:56.030
radically, right? We've decimated it in many

00:40:56.030 --> 00:40:58.750
cases. And I know that your agency is focused

00:40:58.750 --> 00:41:02.210
on trying to make that better while also trying

00:41:02.210 --> 00:41:06.090
to create this sustainable, sustainably managed

00:41:06.090 --> 00:41:09.070
forest for harvest, which has to be a real challenge.

00:41:10.050 --> 00:41:12.110
But I think that some of the things that you

00:41:12.110 --> 00:41:13.690
described, a lot of people don't really understand

00:41:13.690 --> 00:41:16.849
that that is actually really key to longer term.

00:41:17.630 --> 00:41:21.630
wild land fire protection and management on the

00:41:21.630 --> 00:41:24.309
landscape itself. Can you talk about that a little

00:41:24.309 --> 00:41:25.889
bit and what your agency is doing? And I would

00:41:25.889 --> 00:41:29.010
love for you to talk about your efforts versus

00:41:29.010 --> 00:41:32.309
what you're seeing happen or not happen on neighboring

00:41:32.309 --> 00:41:37.510
federal lands. I think we recognize the importance

00:41:37.510 --> 00:41:41.550
of managing our state lands. And by managing,

00:41:41.570 --> 00:41:46.809
it means... Going in and addressing the issues

00:41:46.809 --> 00:41:50.449
that contribute to wildfire and degrade the ecological

00:41:50.449 --> 00:41:54.349
value. It's very different based on what ecosystem

00:41:54.349 --> 00:41:58.449
you're in. Eastern Washington forests are different

00:41:58.449 --> 00:42:01.210
than some of the Western Washington more rainforest

00:42:01.210 --> 00:42:03.550
type evergreen forests. Very different, right?

00:42:03.590 --> 00:42:06.650
And so the management looks different. It is

00:42:06.650 --> 00:42:09.809
striking in Eastern Washington to look at what

00:42:09.809 --> 00:42:13.469
a forest looked like a couple hundred years ago.

00:42:13.820 --> 00:42:15.719
what a healthy forest is, and to look at the

00:42:15.719 --> 00:42:18.860
forest now, a healthy forest in these eastern

00:42:18.860 --> 00:42:21.599
Washington ecosystems has a lot of room between

00:42:21.599 --> 00:42:23.139
the trees, and a lot of it, it's almost like

00:42:23.139 --> 00:42:25.900
a grassy meadow with trees in it, and it was

00:42:25.900 --> 00:42:29.340
very good for wildlife. And fires would come

00:42:29.340 --> 00:42:30.820
through regularly, and they wouldn't burn down

00:42:30.820 --> 00:42:33.820
all the trees because the brush was low. Now,

00:42:33.820 --> 00:42:34.940
you're talking about the eastern Washington.

00:42:34.960 --> 00:42:37.519
Yeah, this is eastern. Yeah, so mostly like ponderosa

00:42:37.519 --> 00:42:39.300
pine. Yeah, heavy on ponderosa pine. And they

00:42:39.300 --> 00:42:43.630
have that really thick bark, right? Yep. Native

00:42:43.630 --> 00:42:45.989
Americans would do intentional burning. We didn't

00:42:45.989 --> 00:42:48.130
have firefighters going out and stopping fire.

00:42:48.250 --> 00:42:50.409
So the fires would happen quite a bit, but it

00:42:50.409 --> 00:42:54.710
wasn't that big of a deal because these trees

00:42:54.710 --> 00:42:56.690
were resistant. The underbrush would burn and

00:42:56.690 --> 00:43:00.250
it kept that ecosystem healthy. We put Native

00:43:00.250 --> 00:43:03.250
Americans on reservations. Their burning stopped.

00:43:03.570 --> 00:43:06.050
We started suppressing fire. And now you look

00:43:06.050 --> 00:43:07.670
at many of those forests and they are dense.

00:43:08.900 --> 00:43:11.199
Well, we created those monocultures that you're

00:43:11.199 --> 00:43:12.860
talking about. Yep, and some of the replanting

00:43:12.860 --> 00:43:16.460
and their old ways of doing things. And now they're

00:43:16.460 --> 00:43:21.000
like a tinderbox. When they do catch fire, everything

00:43:21.000 --> 00:43:23.659
burns up. The entire trees, it can ravage communities

00:43:23.659 --> 00:43:27.760
and homes. And it's not good for wildlife. It's

00:43:27.760 --> 00:43:31.000
not the natural ecosystem. So what we're doing...

00:43:31.420 --> 00:43:34.800
is investing in forest health and we are thinning

00:43:34.800 --> 00:43:38.059
those forests. Sometimes you can get good wood

00:43:38.059 --> 00:43:40.199
products and we're doing prescribed burns where

00:43:40.199 --> 00:43:42.719
we put fuel on there, put fire on there on purpose.

00:43:42.860 --> 00:43:45.820
Why are we seeing the trees die? Why are we seeing,

00:43:45.960 --> 00:43:48.320
it's not just fire that's killing the forest.

00:43:48.380 --> 00:43:52.440
We're also seeing trees die, entire stands of

00:43:52.440 --> 00:43:55.380
trees die, large scale in some areas, which actually

00:43:55.380 --> 00:43:59.130
creates an even greater hazard for... for potential

00:43:59.130 --> 00:44:03.489
for fire, right? Why is that happening? It's

00:44:03.489 --> 00:44:05.849
probably site -specific, so I hesitate, but generally

00:44:05.849 --> 00:44:09.710
we are seeing some of our shifting climate conditions

00:44:09.710 --> 00:44:15.110
resulting in an increase in disease in some parts

00:44:15.110 --> 00:44:18.150
of the state. And I also imagine if you're not

00:44:18.150 --> 00:44:21.789
managing those forests, you're creating an ecosystem

00:44:21.789 --> 00:44:25.800
situation where you have... more competition

00:44:25.800 --> 00:44:30.760
for water and light than that traditional natural

00:44:30.760 --> 00:44:33.179
system has, you're going to see the natural die

00:44:33.179 --> 00:44:36.159
off. Because the trees are weaker? Yeah, you

00:44:36.159 --> 00:44:38.780
see competition. Yeah, they can't necessarily

00:44:38.780 --> 00:44:40.659
protect themselves as well. And some of that's

00:44:40.659 --> 00:44:43.239
natural. That cycle of a forest developing includes

00:44:43.239 --> 00:44:47.949
trees being... dying naturally from competition

00:44:47.949 --> 00:44:50.170
and contributing to that. So you kind of described

00:44:50.170 --> 00:44:52.610
what, you know, historically was the case in

00:44:52.610 --> 00:44:55.110
eastern Washington. And if you look at a lot

00:44:55.110 --> 00:44:56.670
of the forests in eastern Washington now, what

00:44:56.670 --> 00:44:59.130
you described is not what we see. No. We're making

00:44:59.130 --> 00:45:01.250
progress on our state lands a little bit. And

00:45:01.250 --> 00:45:03.610
you actually can go into some areas, and I live

00:45:03.610 --> 00:45:05.369
in an area where you've made a lot of progress,

00:45:05.429 --> 00:45:07.510
and it's actually pretty remarkable to stand.

00:45:08.590 --> 00:45:11.929
on the line between a treated stand and a non

00:45:11.929 --> 00:45:15.070
-treated stand, it's stark, the difference. I

00:45:15.070 --> 00:45:17.409
mean, it really is stark. I was stunned. Yeah,

00:45:17.949 --> 00:45:19.650
maybe that's a better word. It's almost stunning.

00:45:19.769 --> 00:45:21.730
And I don't mean like stunning gorgeous. It's

00:45:21.730 --> 00:45:25.010
just the difference is really, really apparent

00:45:25.010 --> 00:45:27.880
just from standing there and seeing it. But what

00:45:27.880 --> 00:45:29.659
about Western Washington? Because we're starting

00:45:29.659 --> 00:45:31.920
to see more wildfire here as well. You had a

00:45:31.920 --> 00:45:34.900
big fire this year in the Olympics range. I can't

00:45:34.900 --> 00:45:36.340
remember the name of it all of a sudden. Bear

00:45:36.340 --> 00:45:40.059
Gulch. Yeah, burned for, what, months. Might

00:45:40.059 --> 00:45:42.619
still be some hot spots out there even now, except

00:45:42.619 --> 00:45:44.639
the snow and rain has been flying pretty good.

00:45:46.809 --> 00:45:49.769
Why are we seeing, what's the difference there?

00:45:50.590 --> 00:45:53.590
Was it a similar type of situation in western

00:45:53.590 --> 00:45:56.070
Washington or not? And what's kind of causing

00:45:56.070 --> 00:45:58.809
the increased danger and risk on this side of

00:45:58.809 --> 00:46:00.750
the mountain? I think it's more complicated on

00:46:00.750 --> 00:46:03.289
the west side. I think we do have situations,

00:46:03.369 --> 00:46:05.369
we see some in southwest Washington where you

00:46:05.369 --> 00:46:08.730
have disease and you do see some overcrowding

00:46:08.730 --> 00:46:11.760
conditions where management takes place. I've

00:46:11.760 --> 00:46:13.860
also seen some science that on some of these

00:46:13.860 --> 00:46:16.360
older forests, certainly the old growth, some

00:46:16.360 --> 00:46:19.519
of these western Washington evergreen forests,

00:46:19.619 --> 00:46:23.059
the older well -developed forests are more protective.

00:46:23.420 --> 00:46:26.039
And the science has shown it sometimes is because

00:46:26.039 --> 00:46:30.440
of bark thickness, retention of moisture, things

00:46:30.440 --> 00:46:34.619
like that, where harvesting and replacing with

00:46:34.619 --> 00:46:38.139
younger stands, even if you're not doing monoculture.

00:46:39.309 --> 00:46:43.869
can increase fire risk so i think it really is

00:46:43.869 --> 00:46:47.530
site specific and i think in the ideal world

00:46:47.530 --> 00:46:49.829
we'd have the resources to go in and manage every

00:46:49.829 --> 00:46:54.289
parcel we own based on the conditions in in those

00:46:54.289 --> 00:46:58.530
those sites and People throw the term manage

00:46:58.530 --> 00:47:01.170
around too. Sometimes people say we're managing

00:47:01.170 --> 00:47:02.909
them and managing may mean clear cutting. And

00:47:02.909 --> 00:47:05.090
I don't necessarily mean it in that term, but

00:47:05.090 --> 00:47:08.409
it's different forest treatments that can be

00:47:08.409 --> 00:47:12.550
done. The challenge is when you're not pulling

00:47:12.550 --> 00:47:15.570
out all the trees, it often costs money to do

00:47:15.570 --> 00:47:18.230
it instead of makes money. Yeah. So if you're,

00:47:18.230 --> 00:47:19.849
that's a, that's a really good point, right?

00:47:19.929 --> 00:47:22.659
So. One of the things that I was going to ask

00:47:22.659 --> 00:47:25.500
you about that I didn't get a chance to and we

00:47:25.500 --> 00:47:27.880
just moved on from was this idea that, okay,

00:47:27.940 --> 00:47:31.440
this existing 40 % that's set aside, what are

00:47:31.440 --> 00:47:33.920
we doing to improve the habitat there? We're

00:47:33.920 --> 00:47:36.039
doing some cool stuff. But it does cost money,

00:47:36.039 --> 00:47:37.599
right? A lot of money. And it doesn't pay for

00:47:37.599 --> 00:47:39.980
itself. And if you're doing forest treatments,

00:47:40.280 --> 00:47:42.659
you're talking about things like ladder fuels

00:47:42.659 --> 00:47:45.920
removal, underbrush removal. You're talking about

00:47:45.920 --> 00:47:49.320
sending in chippers. You're talking about thinning,

00:47:49.340 --> 00:47:52.809
right? And probably in most cases, that doesn't

00:47:52.809 --> 00:47:55.030
pay for itself either, right? Sometimes the thinning,

00:47:55.030 --> 00:47:57.050
it's really proximity to a road and proximity

00:47:57.050 --> 00:48:00.269
to a mill. So it's close and easy. If it's close

00:48:00.269 --> 00:48:02.489
and easy, you can make money off of the thinnings.

00:48:02.789 --> 00:48:04.969
Jim, that's grossly oversimplified, but the rule

00:48:04.969 --> 00:48:08.190
of thumb is that some of the thinnings can make

00:48:08.190 --> 00:48:11.300
a little bit of money. Most cost money, some

00:48:11.300 --> 00:48:13.519
are a wash. Because like you said, we got some

00:48:13.519 --> 00:48:15.460
money from the legislature to go into that owl

00:48:15.460 --> 00:48:17.940
habitat and try to improve it and speed up that

00:48:17.940 --> 00:48:21.260
stand stage. So you have to rely on the legislature

00:48:21.260 --> 00:48:23.539
to appropriate funds to actually do that? Much

00:48:23.539 --> 00:48:25.039
of that. Most. Not all of it, but most of it.

00:48:25.099 --> 00:48:28.420
We have some tools we can use financially, but

00:48:28.420 --> 00:48:31.099
they're limited. Okay. Okay. I want to get into

00:48:31.099 --> 00:48:33.159
that especially, but before we do that, I want

00:48:33.159 --> 00:48:35.780
to touch on the Forest Service, and I want to

00:48:35.780 --> 00:48:37.519
touch on the relationship with the Forest Service.

00:48:37.579 --> 00:48:39.260
Your predecessor, who you mentioned before, I

00:48:39.260 --> 00:48:42.199
know was working hard on this. I didn't follow

00:48:42.199 --> 00:48:44.380
it very closely, so I'm not sure what progress

00:48:44.380 --> 00:48:46.199
was made, but I know we have good neighbor agreements

00:48:46.199 --> 00:48:48.550
and things like that. What I'm worried about,

00:48:48.610 --> 00:48:50.269
I know a lot of our members are worried about,

00:48:50.309 --> 00:48:52.829
is the Forest Service takes a much more hands

00:48:52.829 --> 00:48:54.630
-off approach than DNR does from a management

00:48:54.630 --> 00:48:57.110
point of view. They've nearly stopped harvesting

00:48:57.110 --> 00:48:59.590
in Washington state. Now, the Trump administration,

00:48:59.849 --> 00:49:01.449
the current administration, is talking about

00:49:01.449 --> 00:49:03.969
increasing that. And I think some of my members

00:49:03.969 --> 00:49:06.610
welcome that. Some of my members are very worried

00:49:06.610 --> 00:49:10.710
about that. Regardless, there's a lot of fire

00:49:10.710 --> 00:49:14.530
hazard on unmanaged properties that were previously

00:49:14.530 --> 00:49:17.590
managed. as plantation stands for commercial

00:49:17.590 --> 00:49:19.349
timber harvest that we're essentially just walked

00:49:19.349 --> 00:49:21.769
away from right they're overstocked there's a

00:49:21.769 --> 00:49:24.489
lot of disease it's more of a monoculture uh

00:49:24.489 --> 00:49:27.050
you just don't it's just not properly managed

00:49:27.050 --> 00:49:30.630
from from not just uh the point of view of trying

00:49:30.630 --> 00:49:33.349
to maximize harvest potential but from a fire

00:49:33.349 --> 00:49:36.920
resilience and those lands oftentimes are bordering

00:49:36.920 --> 00:49:39.619
your lands or are intermixed. And, you know,

00:49:39.639 --> 00:49:42.000
fire doesn't just stop at a border because it

00:49:42.000 --> 00:49:44.320
started on, well, this is federal land and we're

00:49:44.320 --> 00:49:45.659
just going to burn federal land, right? That

00:49:45.659 --> 00:49:48.420
doesn't happen. So how are you managing that

00:49:48.420 --> 00:49:51.639
and how do you mitigate the risk from that? You

00:49:51.639 --> 00:49:54.260
know how you said it was stark, the difference

00:49:54.260 --> 00:49:56.460
between a treated and untreated forest? Yes.

00:49:56.719 --> 00:49:59.619
It's stark, the difference between a U .S. Forest

00:49:59.619 --> 00:50:01.780
Service forest and a state forest. Totally agree.

00:50:01.980 --> 00:50:04.389
You can stand. on the side of the road and look

00:50:04.389 --> 00:50:06.769
up on hillsides, and now I can, to my eyes, say,

00:50:06.769 --> 00:50:09.130
all right, Forest Service, state, private. 100%.

00:50:09.130 --> 00:50:12.670
And I share that concern, and I'm a big fan of

00:50:12.670 --> 00:50:14.769
this tool the federal government gave us, the

00:50:14.769 --> 00:50:18.030
Good Neighbor Authority, where this is oversimplified,

00:50:18.030 --> 00:50:22.050
but they pay us to do work on their lands. Are

00:50:22.050 --> 00:50:23.909
you having success getting that funding from

00:50:23.909 --> 00:50:28.380
them? Yes. We're in negotiations now, our state

00:50:28.380 --> 00:50:30.300
forester, to continue it, but the conversations

00:50:30.300 --> 00:50:32.760
with the new regional forester are very positive.

00:50:32.860 --> 00:50:36.340
We've treated about 25 ,000 acres in recent years

00:50:36.340 --> 00:50:39.900
on federal lands, and I want to do more of it.

00:50:39.940 --> 00:50:42.400
That sounds like a big number. It is and it isn't.

00:50:42.400 --> 00:50:45.300
Yeah, let's put it in perspective, right? Because

00:50:45.300 --> 00:50:48.840
you own, well, the state owns and manages, what,

00:50:48.940 --> 00:50:51.320
1 .3 million acres? Is that about right, something

00:50:51.320 --> 00:50:53.900
like that, of forest land? More than that. Is

00:50:53.900 --> 00:50:56.929
it more than that? Yeah. Okay. So it's more than

00:50:56.929 --> 00:51:00.670
that. 25 ,000 is a tiny portion of that. And

00:51:00.670 --> 00:51:02.650
the Forest Service is a much bigger landowner

00:51:02.650 --> 00:51:04.969
than you are in Washington State, right? Do you

00:51:04.969 --> 00:51:07.289
have any idea how many acres they own? No, I

00:51:07.289 --> 00:51:08.590
have no clue. I don't either. The federal government.

00:51:08.670 --> 00:51:11.130
But I want to do more of it. It's also... But

00:51:11.130 --> 00:51:13.630
we're talking a tiny fraction still. Yes. And

00:51:13.630 --> 00:51:16.550
I don't believe we're the limiting factor. I've

00:51:16.550 --> 00:51:20.110
asked our state forester to work with them on...

00:51:20.909 --> 00:51:22.730
you know, getting more of these agreements in

00:51:22.730 --> 00:51:25.110
place. It also is a good workforce stability

00:51:25.110 --> 00:51:28.090
thing. If we have downturn ups and downs in our

00:51:28.090 --> 00:51:30.949
workforce, it's a great way to keep people working.

00:51:30.969 --> 00:51:36.889
Sure. And as you noted. You know, these to most

00:51:36.889 --> 00:51:39.030
people, these political boundaries are arbitrary

00:51:39.030 --> 00:51:41.130
when it comes to an ecosystem. They're just arbitrary.

00:51:41.369 --> 00:51:44.309
There's the where the border of a federal versus

00:51:44.309 --> 00:51:47.130
state lands are. Right. And if we want to keep

00:51:47.130 --> 00:51:51.949
ourselves safe from wildfire and forest diseases,

00:51:52.130 --> 00:51:54.110
you have to address what happens on the neighbor's

00:51:54.110 --> 00:51:56.929
property. Right. Absolutely do. And I don't think

00:51:56.929 --> 00:51:59.409
we you know, I understand why some people are

00:51:59.409 --> 00:52:01.269
nervous. I don't I certainly don't want to clear

00:52:01.269 --> 00:52:04.949
cut our national forest. pay for tax cuts or

00:52:04.949 --> 00:52:07.250
something like that. But there's a lot more work

00:52:07.250 --> 00:52:08.869
that can be done on these federal forests and

00:52:08.869 --> 00:52:10.750
done in a way that's aligned with Washington

00:52:10.750 --> 00:52:13.409
State's history and values. Seems overwhelming

00:52:13.409 --> 00:52:18.090
at times as far as the wildfire risk problem

00:52:18.090 --> 00:52:21.610
that we're dealing with. And it feels like no

00:52:21.610 --> 00:52:23.929
matter how much money we're putting into it right

00:52:23.929 --> 00:52:27.150
now, it's actually getting worse in some areas.

00:52:27.190 --> 00:52:28.829
We can't keep up with it. Does that make sense?

00:52:30.259 --> 00:52:33.099
Yes, I have. Last few years have been, you know,

00:52:33.119 --> 00:52:36.559
we've been keeping statistically in Washington

00:52:36.559 --> 00:52:39.059
in the short term recently. It hasn't been, we

00:52:39.059 --> 00:52:41.860
haven't seen a spike or anything like that. It's

00:52:41.860 --> 00:52:44.360
a combination of both the prevention and the

00:52:44.360 --> 00:52:48.599
response really determined the outcome. This

00:52:48.599 --> 00:52:50.599
stuff works. If I can share one quick story,

00:52:50.739 --> 00:52:52.739
there was a big fire down at the gorge this year,

00:52:52.820 --> 00:52:55.369
the Berdoin fire. Fire at the gorge? That's so

00:52:55.369 --> 00:52:59.309
rare. Down outside, white salmon. And the legislature

00:52:59.309 --> 00:53:02.889
had funded us for this work. You hear people,

00:53:02.969 --> 00:53:05.190
if you've got county council members listening,

00:53:05.250 --> 00:53:08.150
they call it the House Bill 1168 funding. Yeah,

00:53:08.190 --> 00:53:10.650
I want to talk about that. This is a good transition

00:53:10.650 --> 00:53:12.429
because I want to go right into it. It was money

00:53:12.429 --> 00:53:15.250
the legislature gave us for prevention, preparation,

00:53:15.690 --> 00:53:19.809
and response. Purchasing the equipment, things

00:53:19.809 --> 00:53:23.900
like that. And the idea is... Fighting wildfires

00:53:23.900 --> 00:53:26.760
is really, really expensive. So when we go and

00:53:26.760 --> 00:53:30.760
put out a fire, we do what it takes to put it

00:53:30.760 --> 00:53:33.039
out. We're like an emergency room. You show up

00:53:33.039 --> 00:53:34.679
at the emergency room, you get treated, whether

00:53:34.679 --> 00:53:36.679
you can pay or not. There's a fire, we go put

00:53:36.679 --> 00:53:39.019
it out, and we send the legislature the bill.

00:53:39.199 --> 00:53:41.420
And by law, they're required to pay it. Those

00:53:41.420 --> 00:53:44.099
are big bills they get. Every year right at the

00:53:44.099 --> 00:53:45.639
beginning of the session, that's one of the first

00:53:45.639 --> 00:53:49.039
things they talk about. And they wisely, when

00:53:49.039 --> 00:53:50.699
times were good, said, why don't we get upstream?

00:53:52.489 --> 00:53:54.809
prevent one or two of these big fires or reduce

00:53:54.809 --> 00:53:57.590
the size will more than pay for it. So they put

00:53:57.590 --> 00:53:59.590
in a bill that they passed a piece of legislation

00:53:59.590 --> 00:54:02.730
that said over the next four biennium, over the

00:54:02.730 --> 00:54:04.469
next eight years, we're going to provide $500

00:54:04.469 --> 00:54:07.989
million to DNR. That's $125 million every two

00:54:07.989 --> 00:54:11.090
years for this wildfire prevention work and the

00:54:11.090 --> 00:54:13.710
forest health and purchasing equipment for response.

00:54:14.289 --> 00:54:16.829
And for the first four years, they did that.

00:54:16.889 --> 00:54:19.510
But last year when they met, instead of providing

00:54:19.510 --> 00:54:22.219
us... would have been 120 million. They only

00:54:22.219 --> 00:54:25.099
gave us 60 million. They cut it in half. 40 million

00:54:25.099 --> 00:54:27.579
this year, 20 million next year. And if they

00:54:27.579 --> 00:54:29.800
don't restore that funding in the upcoming legislative

00:54:29.800 --> 00:54:32.619
session, we're going to see more fires, we're

00:54:32.619 --> 00:54:35.000
going to see bigger fires, and that bill we send

00:54:35.000 --> 00:54:36.800
to the legislature is going to be bigger, and

00:54:36.800 --> 00:54:38.619
it'll probably cost more in the long run. So

00:54:38.619 --> 00:54:40.619
you're getting into the next kind of area that

00:54:40.619 --> 00:54:43.420
I wanted to talk about really quickly. But before

00:54:43.420 --> 00:54:46.210
we get that... You said that before they kind

00:54:46.210 --> 00:54:48.730
of recognized the old saying, an ounce of prevention

00:54:48.730 --> 00:54:52.309
is worth a pound of cure, right? And that has

00:54:52.309 --> 00:54:55.269
to be the case in things like that or things

00:54:55.269 --> 00:54:56.829
like this. And they poured a bunch of money into

00:54:56.829 --> 00:54:59.329
it, which was great. But last year they cut it.

00:54:59.389 --> 00:55:02.369
If they keep it at the reduced funding level,

00:55:02.469 --> 00:55:06.469
are we going to go backwards? Yes, absolutely.

00:55:07.070 --> 00:55:09.309
It can potentially mean the loss of about 50

00:55:09.309 --> 00:55:12.480
firefighters. maybe an additional 20 staff that

00:55:12.480 --> 00:55:16.079
do this forest health work. Almost all of the

00:55:16.079 --> 00:55:17.960
pass -through money we give to local governments

00:55:17.960 --> 00:55:21.599
and fire districts and local partners all goes

00:55:21.599 --> 00:55:25.980
away. And we'll have some funding to do some

00:55:25.980 --> 00:55:27.940
of this work, but it means we will thin fewer

00:55:27.940 --> 00:55:30.340
forests. We'll do less prescribed burns. We will

00:55:30.340 --> 00:55:33.599
purchase less equipment for initial attack. It

00:55:33.599 --> 00:55:36.880
obviously would have, logic would tell you, will

00:55:36.880 --> 00:55:41.409
have a significant impact. You know, it is both

00:55:41.409 --> 00:55:43.690
that prevention side, but half of this money

00:55:43.690 --> 00:55:47.409
goes for what I call the preparation. That's

00:55:47.409 --> 00:55:50.190
the money we use to buy helicopters and equipment.

00:55:50.809 --> 00:55:53.489
And I've learned in this job in the first year

00:55:53.489 --> 00:55:55.289
that that initial attack is everything getting

00:55:55.289 --> 00:55:57.730
to the fire when it starts. Really quickly. Right

00:55:57.730 --> 00:55:59.849
away and getting it out. Yeah. This is the funding

00:55:59.849 --> 00:56:01.610
that helps us do that. Before it gets out of

00:56:01.610 --> 00:56:05.619
control. And so it really, and I get the. I was

00:56:05.619 --> 00:56:07.559
in the legislature. You were in the county. We

00:56:07.559 --> 00:56:09.340
always hear people come and say, well, you know,

00:56:09.360 --> 00:56:11.380
if you invest in early childhood education, you're

00:56:11.380 --> 00:56:14.559
going to reduce prison costs down the road. But

00:56:14.559 --> 00:56:16.280
you have to get out to get out of Olympia. You

00:56:16.280 --> 00:56:18.340
have to balance your budget that year. Right.

00:56:18.559 --> 00:56:20.739
This I don't think is one of those. I think this.

00:56:21.230 --> 00:56:23.750
It can be hard to think 20 or 30 years down the

00:56:23.750 --> 00:56:25.550
road. But this is thinking two, three, four years

00:56:25.550 --> 00:56:27.690
down the road potentially. Potentially, yeah,

00:56:27.769 --> 00:56:29.829
no, I agree. Well, let's talk about this because

00:56:29.829 --> 00:56:31.530
this is something that I wanted to address today.

00:56:31.610 --> 00:56:33.650
I wanted to give you a chance to kind of talk

00:56:33.650 --> 00:56:35.309
about, you know, what you're looking forward

00:56:35.309 --> 00:56:38.550
to in the session. 1168 is the bill that you

00:56:38.550 --> 00:56:42.829
mentioned. It was passed in, what, 22, 23, I

00:56:42.829 --> 00:56:46.329
think, or 21. Was it 21? We were definitely part

00:56:46.329 --> 00:56:48.739
of that. I know our members probably. Some of

00:56:48.739 --> 00:56:50.059
our members that have been around, I'm sure,

00:56:50.099 --> 00:56:52.280
remember it. And you're right, it's $125 million

00:56:52.280 --> 00:56:56.840
per year. So $250 million per biennium. No, no,

00:56:57.039 --> 00:57:00.780
$125 a biennium. Oh, $125 a biennium. So $250

00:57:00.780 --> 00:57:04.539
per every four years? Yeah. Okay, okay. So we

00:57:04.539 --> 00:57:07.099
had been getting about $5 million goes to some

00:57:07.099 --> 00:57:08.940
other programs, so we're getting about $60 million

00:57:08.940 --> 00:57:10.820
a year historically. And it was hiring full -time

00:57:10.820 --> 00:57:12.659
firefighters that you didn't have. It was putting

00:57:12.659 --> 00:57:15.539
new apparatus on the ground and in the air. It

00:57:15.539 --> 00:57:19.969
was... paying for training for local communities

00:57:19.969 --> 00:57:22.869
and equipment grants for local communities. So

00:57:22.869 --> 00:57:25.170
think your local fire district, right? Getting

00:57:25.170 --> 00:57:28.389
them the brush trucks that they need to assist

00:57:28.389 --> 00:57:30.869
in wildland fire, not just structure fire, right?

00:57:31.010 --> 00:57:33.670
Training their people on how to dig trail and

00:57:33.670 --> 00:57:37.210
how to do backburns and providing money for local

00:57:37.210 --> 00:57:40.630
community groups as well as your agency to go

00:57:40.630 --> 00:57:42.610
in and do that forced health treatment, which

00:57:42.610 --> 00:57:44.989
includes prescribed burning, which includes...

00:57:45.900 --> 00:57:48.079
shaded fuel breaks around communities, which

00:57:48.079 --> 00:57:50.840
includes fire lines, which includes ladder fuel

00:57:50.840 --> 00:57:53.780
removal, which includes pre -commercial thinning

00:57:53.780 --> 00:57:55.420
and commercial thinning, et cetera, to restore

00:57:55.420 --> 00:57:58.000
the health of these landscapes and these forests

00:57:58.000 --> 00:58:00.099
and to mitigate the fire risk long -term, really

00:58:00.099 --> 00:58:01.980
from catastrophic wildfire. We're not trying

00:58:01.980 --> 00:58:04.880
to remove fire from the landscape. We're trying

00:58:04.880 --> 00:58:07.179
to make sure that our landscape is sustainable

00:58:07.179 --> 00:58:11.360
and doesn't get absolutely destroyed when the

00:58:11.360 --> 00:58:15.389
fire comes through. They cut that funding this

00:58:15.389 --> 00:58:18.630
year, basically in half. And so a big part of

00:58:18.630 --> 00:58:20.369
your legislative agenda moving forward is to

00:58:20.369 --> 00:58:24.170
get that restored in 2026. Is that right? Our

00:58:24.170 --> 00:58:26.730
top priority as an agency and my personal top

00:58:26.730 --> 00:58:30.269
priority. And because it works, I started to

00:58:30.269 --> 00:58:32.269
share a story, the big fire at the gorge. Oh,

00:58:32.269 --> 00:58:35.090
that's right. When I was down there just a couple

00:58:35.090 --> 00:58:39.289
years, a few years back. We did a bunch of these

00:58:39.289 --> 00:58:41.269
forest treatments. We did, I don't know if it

00:58:41.269 --> 00:58:43.389
was thinning and fuels reduction, fire lines

00:58:43.389 --> 00:58:46.110
around white salmon. And when that fire broke

00:58:46.110 --> 00:58:49.989
out, it slowed down as it entered the areas that

00:58:49.989 --> 00:58:54.530
we had treated just enough for the first responders

00:58:54.530 --> 00:58:56.929
to get there. Had we not done those treatments,

00:58:57.250 --> 00:58:59.909
all those structures in white salmon could have

00:58:59.909 --> 00:59:03.889
been burned. Also, we used aviation equipment

00:59:03.889 --> 00:59:06.329
we purchased with that money to respond to that

00:59:06.329 --> 00:59:09.010
fire. And then the local chief of the local fire

00:59:09.010 --> 00:59:11.250
district down there pulled me aside unprompted

00:59:11.250 --> 00:59:14.650
to say the money that that fire district got

00:59:14.650 --> 00:59:18.530
for equipment and for training. was the reason

00:59:18.530 --> 00:59:20.730
they were able to get there as fast as they were.

00:59:20.869 --> 00:59:23.949
So we had three examples at that fire of where

00:59:23.949 --> 00:59:26.809
this funding the legislature gave us made a difference

00:59:26.809 --> 00:59:29.989
and saved homes, saved a lot of money, and maybe

00:59:29.989 --> 00:59:32.849
even saved some lives. Yeah, no, that's a really

00:59:32.849 --> 00:59:34.809
good example, and it's not the first time I've

00:59:34.809 --> 00:59:37.349
heard it. not specific necessarily to that particular

00:59:37.349 --> 00:59:39.389
fire, but I've heard it in other communities

00:59:39.389 --> 00:59:41.730
where, you know, it starts on, for instance,

00:59:41.829 --> 00:59:43.769
forest service land or even private land sometimes,

00:59:43.869 --> 00:59:46.389
and it gets to the right place, you know, in

00:59:46.389 --> 00:59:48.750
an area that DNR has actually done a forest treatment

00:59:48.750 --> 00:59:51.530
or has better access or just better management.

00:59:51.630 --> 00:59:54.969
And the fire, like you said, it slows down. It

00:59:54.969 --> 00:59:59.039
reduces in intensity. in those areas because

00:59:59.039 --> 01:00:01.260
you don't necessarily have, you know, this massive

01:00:01.260 --> 01:00:04.260
crowning going on and lots of debris on the ground

01:00:04.260 --> 01:00:06.380
that just creates those giant heat waves that,

01:00:06.400 --> 01:00:08.800
you know, keep a fire going. And they're able

01:00:08.800 --> 01:00:10.860
to kind of get that fire line around it, right,

01:00:11.019 --> 01:00:13.880
and get that black spot on the map, which is

01:00:13.880 --> 01:00:15.880
what we're all looking for. You know, if you've

01:00:15.880 --> 01:00:18.360
ever been to fire camp, you know that the black

01:00:18.360 --> 01:00:20.219
spots that are filled in, those are the areas

01:00:20.219 --> 01:00:22.699
that are good. The rest of the area is not so

01:00:22.699 --> 01:00:25.400
good. So that funding is your number one priority.

01:00:26.250 --> 01:00:28.449
Let's talk about what else you guys are going

01:00:28.449 --> 01:00:31.110
to be working on during the session. Sure. We

01:00:31.110 --> 01:00:33.969
kind of do a bottoms -up development of recommendations

01:00:33.969 --> 01:00:37.309
at the agency, and I gave some direction at the

01:00:37.309 --> 01:00:39.050
start of that process. I said, don't bring me

01:00:39.050 --> 01:00:42.340
ideas that cost money. Well, that wouldn't cost

01:00:42.340 --> 01:00:45.179
money. Yes, that's a budget request, but in terms

01:00:45.179 --> 01:00:46.980
of policy bills. And I said, look for things

01:00:46.980 --> 01:00:49.179
to help us generate revenue, help us do things

01:00:49.179 --> 01:00:52.300
more efficiently, help us as an agency save money

01:00:52.300 --> 01:00:54.699
and be more efficient. And so we will have a

01:00:54.699 --> 01:00:57.159
few pieces of legislation that we'll be requesting.

01:00:58.059 --> 01:01:00.659
One I know we've talked about is we're looking

01:01:00.659 --> 01:01:03.420
for more authority to enter into ecosystem service

01:01:03.420 --> 01:01:07.059
markets. And that's essentially where you get

01:01:07.059 --> 01:01:09.099
in. The most commonly known one is the carbon

01:01:09.099 --> 01:01:11.360
market. You hear people talk about that. Can

01:01:11.360 --> 01:01:15.139
you get compensated in some way for doing things

01:01:15.139 --> 01:01:18.820
that are reduced carbon emissions? A second one

01:01:18.820 --> 01:01:20.599
along those lines, we have legislation that's

01:01:20.599 --> 01:01:24.920
going to increase our authority to lease our

01:01:24.920 --> 01:01:28.659
unutilized water rights. We're exploring some

01:01:28.659 --> 01:01:31.099
changes there to give us more flexibility to

01:01:31.099 --> 01:01:33.800
do that in ways that we think can meet the public

01:01:33.800 --> 01:01:36.510
interest. That's interesting. That's the first

01:01:36.510 --> 01:01:37.989
I've heard about that one. I'll be interested

01:01:37.989 --> 01:01:41.409
to see. We have a lot of experience here at WASAC

01:01:41.409 --> 01:01:43.670
in working with water rights. I'm sure it won't

01:01:43.670 --> 01:01:45.510
be controversial at all. Oh, no, water rights,

01:01:45.610 --> 01:01:47.969
everyone loves them. Everyone loves to talk about

01:01:47.969 --> 01:01:50.050
water rights, and no one gets upset when you

01:01:50.050 --> 01:01:52.510
talk about different uses of water rights. This

01:01:52.510 --> 01:01:54.469
one will sail through, I'm sure. The concept

01:01:54.469 --> 01:01:58.030
is as a state agency, with our land, we have

01:01:58.030 --> 01:01:59.809
some rights to the water under it. We don't use

01:01:59.809 --> 01:02:02.730
all of it. And right now we can, in some limited

01:02:02.730 --> 01:02:05.480
circumstances. let other people use that. And

01:02:05.480 --> 01:02:07.960
we're asking to broaden those circumstances when

01:02:07.960 --> 01:02:10.820
we could lease that to generate revenue for the

01:02:10.820 --> 01:02:13.619
trust and meet other public benefits. You know,

01:02:13.639 --> 01:02:16.940
it might allow some unirrigated land to be irrigated.

01:02:17.000 --> 01:02:19.619
It might even be one of our trust lands and generate

01:02:19.619 --> 01:02:22.440
more money off it. And so we're committed to

01:02:22.440 --> 01:02:24.619
working with our, with tribes and local governments

01:02:24.619 --> 01:02:27.019
on this and to see if we can find something that

01:02:27.019 --> 01:02:29.119
works for everyone, recognizing that there'll

01:02:29.119 --> 01:02:34.389
be discussions to be had. We have a piece of

01:02:34.389 --> 01:02:36.329
legislation aimed at trying to streamline some

01:02:36.329 --> 01:02:39.150
of our timber sale practices. It's stuff just

01:02:39.150 --> 01:02:41.590
developed by staff, allowing some more flexibility,

01:02:41.630 --> 01:02:44.369
I think, in how we structure some timber sales

01:02:44.369 --> 01:02:48.030
designed to maybe hopefully let us save some

01:02:48.030 --> 01:02:49.969
administrative funds and maybe generate some

01:02:49.969 --> 01:02:54.510
more revenue. We have one that I'm sure the...

01:02:55.210 --> 01:02:57.769
County members will have great interest in something

01:02:57.769 --> 01:03:00.630
that I committed to as a candidate, and that

01:03:00.630 --> 01:03:04.309
is adding a tribal representative to the Board

01:03:04.309 --> 01:03:07.769
of Natural Resources. Oh, okay. With the thought

01:03:07.769 --> 01:03:11.369
being that, you know, well, the trust is, you

01:03:11.369 --> 01:03:12.929
know, right now it's made up of trust managers.

01:03:12.989 --> 01:03:15.789
We also have certain tribal treaty rights that

01:03:15.789 --> 01:03:18.809
intersect with all of that work, and we see value

01:03:18.809 --> 01:03:22.599
in having a voice on there. We're also seeing

01:03:22.599 --> 01:03:26.340
more impacts on tribal treaty rights with our

01:03:26.340 --> 01:03:28.920
land transactions as we do things like trust

01:03:28.920 --> 01:03:31.820
land transfer and land exchanges. You see tribes

01:03:31.820 --> 01:03:35.900
losing access, and we think that having someone

01:03:35.900 --> 01:03:39.739
from tribal government on there would bring an

01:03:39.739 --> 01:03:43.349
added voice. We're also exploring... Trying to

01:03:43.349 --> 01:03:45.769
find ways to make sure our firefighters can get

01:03:45.769 --> 01:03:48.909
into the firefighter retirement system. We haven't

01:03:48.909 --> 01:03:51.610
fleshed that out, but there's some policy changes.

01:03:51.690 --> 01:03:53.610
We want to make sure wildland firefighters can

01:03:53.610 --> 01:03:55.630
be part of that. Into the left system? Yeah.

01:03:55.670 --> 01:03:57.610
Okay. Are they just part of PERS now or something?

01:03:57.849 --> 01:04:00.639
I don't know. I believe so. Okay. Interesting.

01:04:00.739 --> 01:04:03.059
Well, all these sound like they're going to sail

01:04:03.059 --> 01:04:06.599
through in a short 60 -day session. Completely

01:04:06.599 --> 01:04:08.000
non -controversial. And we have an interest in

01:04:08.000 --> 01:04:09.980
lots of other stuff. We've talked with the counties

01:04:09.980 --> 01:04:12.079
about encumbered lands funding and trust land

01:04:12.079 --> 01:04:14.940
transfer funding. So on the capital budget side,

01:04:15.059 --> 01:04:20.250
there's always... we value and prioritize. And

01:04:20.250 --> 01:04:22.590
these aren't the only things. We submit a budget

01:04:22.590 --> 01:04:25.590
request where we have ongoing capital projects

01:04:25.590 --> 01:04:28.230
like every agency. We're building out the OMAC

01:04:28.230 --> 01:04:31.030
airport to have more capacity there, and that

01:04:31.030 --> 01:04:34.010
could be a really good economic generation activity

01:04:34.010 --> 01:04:36.429
over there. Yeah, for that community, for sure.

01:04:36.670 --> 01:04:38.949
Yep, and allow us to do our work more efficiently.

01:04:38.949 --> 01:04:40.429
Are you going to put a regional office in there?

01:04:40.530 --> 01:04:41.309
Is that what you're thinking? It's not going

01:04:41.309 --> 01:04:43.829
to be a regional office, but allowing us to position

01:04:43.829 --> 01:04:46.619
more equipment and people there. Oh, okay. The

01:04:46.619 --> 01:04:49.139
phase one has been funded. I'm working a lot

01:04:49.139 --> 01:04:51.980
with Senator Short, who's from that. area and

01:04:51.980 --> 01:04:53.960
we spent some time over there touring it. Yeah,

01:04:53.960 --> 01:04:56.219
she's a great representative of that community,

01:04:56.400 --> 01:04:59.019
that's for sure. I think she's incredible. When

01:04:59.019 --> 01:05:00.840
I was a committee chair, she was the ranking

01:05:00.840 --> 01:05:03.920
Republican on my committee and I think the world

01:05:03.920 --> 01:05:05.320
of her and we worked very well together. Was

01:05:05.320 --> 01:05:07.440
that local government or Ag and Natural Resources?

01:05:07.820 --> 01:05:09.920
It was called, the names always changed every

01:05:09.920 --> 01:05:11.960
year, but it was House Environment Committee.

01:05:12.199 --> 01:05:14.940
Oh, okay. Oh, when you were in the House, that's

01:05:14.940 --> 01:05:16.940
right. She was in the House, I forgot. She's

01:05:16.940 --> 01:05:18.880
been in the Senate so long, I forgot that she

01:05:18.880 --> 01:05:21.239
was in the House previously. So I look to her

01:05:21.239 --> 01:05:23.079
for a lot of, I've been over in Eastern Washington

01:05:23.079 --> 01:05:25.360
a lot. I think I've had 15 trips over there this

01:05:25.360 --> 01:05:26.980
year. Well, if you're going to talk about wildland

01:05:26.980 --> 01:05:28.980
fire, right, you're going to be in Eastern Washington,

01:05:29.119 --> 01:05:31.219
that's for sure. And like you said, you'd be

01:05:31.219 --> 01:05:34.039
careful not to just focus on what you can see

01:05:34.039 --> 01:05:36.860
from the space needle. Totally agree. I know

01:05:36.860 --> 01:05:40.239
King County. So I'm trying to spend time in parts

01:05:40.239 --> 01:05:41.900
of the state I don't know as well to get to know

01:05:41.900 --> 01:05:44.300
the people, the flavor of the community. Well,

01:05:44.320 --> 01:05:45.980
Commissioner, it's been great to have you. We've

01:05:45.980 --> 01:05:48.340
been going at this for about an hour or so, and

01:05:48.340 --> 01:05:50.320
I don't want to take up. your entire day although

01:05:50.320 --> 01:05:53.420
i feel like we could talk for hours longer we

01:05:53.420 --> 01:05:55.500
barely scraped the surface on some of these things

01:05:55.500 --> 01:05:57.920
um i hope you'll come back yes i love it anytime

01:05:57.920 --> 01:06:00.719
um you know as the session gets going if some

01:06:00.719 --> 01:06:02.880
of these bills uh start getting some traction

01:06:02.880 --> 01:06:04.719
that might be a great thing for us to talk about

01:06:04.719 --> 01:06:07.380
we were very involved in the ecosystem services

01:06:07.380 --> 01:06:10.559
bills uh that the agencies had in the past i

01:06:11.159 --> 01:06:13.159
I actually spent one evening until 1 .30 in the

01:06:13.159 --> 01:06:15.840
morning negotiating one of those bills. Lucky

01:06:15.840 --> 01:06:19.840
you. With your predecessor. But we've got a lot

01:06:19.840 --> 01:06:22.800
of interest in 1168 and the other bills that

01:06:22.800 --> 01:06:24.940
you talked about we'd be very interested in as

01:06:24.940 --> 01:06:27.519
well. So if you start to gain traction on some

01:06:27.519 --> 01:06:28.900
of those and they start to move, I'd love to

01:06:28.900 --> 01:06:30.460
maybe have you back and we can talk a little

01:06:30.460 --> 01:06:33.019
bit more detail about them. Cool. Well, have

01:06:33.019 --> 01:06:36.739
a great rest of the year. Yes, you too. And we'll

01:06:36.739 --> 01:06:38.440
look forward to seeing you again soon. Yes, hopefully

01:06:38.440 --> 01:06:40.400
you get some downtime over the holidays. Probably

01:06:40.400 --> 01:06:43.420
won't happen, probably like you, because the

01:06:43.420 --> 01:06:46.619
session's coming up. I'm going to try. We should

01:06:46.619 --> 01:06:52.219
all try. Thanks. Thanks, Commissioner. Thanks

01:06:52.219 --> 01:06:54.460
for tuning in to County Connection. Stay in the

01:06:54.460 --> 01:06:56.400
loop by subscribing to us through your preferred

01:06:56.400 --> 01:06:58.699
podcasting app and following us on LinkedIn,

01:06:58.860 --> 01:07:01.539
Facebook, and Instagram. And don't forget to

01:07:01.539 --> 01:07:03.500
join The Hub, your go -to source for the latest

01:07:03.500 --> 01:07:05.639
news and updates from the Washington State Association

01:07:05.639 --> 01:07:08.360
of Counties. Until next time, stay connected

01:07:08.360 --> 01:07:09.340
and stay informed.