WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:02.459 I wasn't a regular feature on any of those shows. 00:00:02.620 --> 00:00:10.099 I can't believe that. I couldn't either. Why 00:00:10.099 --> 00:00:13.419 did they not appreciate my talents? Spoken like 00:00:13.419 --> 00:00:19.320 a true council member. Welcome to County Connection. 00:00:19.640 --> 00:00:21.500 the official podcast of the Washington State 00:00:21.500 --> 00:00:23.899 Association of Counties, where we dive into the 00:00:23.899 --> 00:00:25.879 legislative issues shaping the future of our 00:00:25.879 --> 00:00:28.760 communities. From budgets to public safety, infrastructure 00:00:28.760 --> 00:00:31.699 to elections, we'll break down what's happening 00:00:31.699 --> 00:00:34.479 in Olympia and how it impacts counties from across 00:00:34.479 --> 00:00:37.579 the Evergreen State. Stay informed, stay engaged, 00:00:37.700 --> 00:00:40.579 and join us as we amplify the voice of Washington's 00:00:40.579 --> 00:00:45.729 39 counties. Welcome back, everybody, to the 00:00:45.729 --> 00:00:47.950 County Connection podcast. I'm Paul Jewell, your 00:00:47.950 --> 00:00:50.009 host and government relations director for the 00:00:50.009 --> 00:00:52.570 Washington State Association of Counties. We're 00:00:52.570 --> 00:00:55.310 back in the studio today. Well, not really. We're 00:00:55.310 --> 00:00:57.070 not in the studio today, actually. We're doing 00:00:57.070 --> 00:01:01.969 our first podcast virtually via Zoom. And ironically, 00:01:02.270 --> 00:01:06.689 my guest today is not some foreign dignitary. 00:01:06.689 --> 00:01:12.090 It's not some expert from across the pond or 00:01:12.090 --> 00:01:16.400 across... the nation or even five blocks down 00:01:16.400 --> 00:01:19.239 that couldn't get here. It is Derek Young, Executive 00:01:19.239 --> 00:01:20.879 Director of the Washington State Association 00:01:20.879 --> 00:01:24.120 of Counties. Strangely, Derek, this is our first 00:01:24.120 --> 00:01:26.560 podcast that we're doing virtually, and it's 00:01:26.560 --> 00:01:29.040 you as the guest. And this is the first time 00:01:29.040 --> 00:01:31.299 you've been on the podcast, I think, if I'm not 00:01:31.299 --> 00:01:34.500 mistaken. Isn't that right? It is. Yeah, and 00:01:34.500 --> 00:01:39.260 I'm here in the office. You're in the office 00:01:39.260 --> 00:01:42.819 and I'm hanging out at what we lovingly refer 00:01:42.819 --> 00:01:48.159 to as HQ2 for WASAC. And that is my home office 00:01:48.159 --> 00:01:52.859 in Ellensburg. Just happened to be that there's 00:01:52.859 --> 00:01:54.700 some kind of breaking information that we wanted 00:01:54.700 --> 00:01:57.200 to get out to folks. And I wasn't there this 00:01:57.200 --> 00:02:00.159 week, so we decided to try. this and to be honest 00:02:00.159 --> 00:02:01.799 with you I'm glad we're trying it with just you 00:02:01.799 --> 00:02:05.299 and me first right because if it's a total disaster 00:02:05.299 --> 00:02:07.719 I can come to the office next week and we'll 00:02:07.719 --> 00:02:10.900 re -record this thing actually I think you'll 00:02:10.900 --> 00:02:13.240 be gone in Philadelphia so that won't work but 00:02:13.240 --> 00:02:15.319 we'll figure out a way to re -record it versus 00:02:15.319 --> 00:02:17.960 you know someone else that I had to you know 00:02:17.960 --> 00:02:20.919 schedule this for that's not not a part of WASAC 00:02:20.919 --> 00:02:22.659 so I'm glad it's you and I kind of trying this 00:02:22.659 --> 00:02:26.620 out Yeah, there was good reason for it. And if 00:02:26.620 --> 00:02:29.340 I have to be the disaster test case, I'm happy 00:02:29.340 --> 00:02:32.180 to do so. Well, you're definitely, we're both 00:02:32.180 --> 00:02:34.539 kind of the racks in the maze right now, I think, 00:02:34.599 --> 00:02:38.360 where the testing is concerned. Let's see how 00:02:38.360 --> 00:02:41.759 this goes. We'll kick it off and see if this 00:02:41.759 --> 00:02:43.340 is a model that works. And if it does, it'll 00:02:43.340 --> 00:02:44.879 create some more flexibility for the podcast, 00:02:45.000 --> 00:02:49.310 which is great. That's not why we're here to 00:02:49.310 --> 00:02:52.509 chat, though, today, right? I know it's kind 00:02:52.509 --> 00:02:54.349 of interesting to talk about different formats 00:02:54.349 --> 00:02:56.169 we're doing the podcast, but that probably just 00:02:56.169 --> 00:02:58.310 interests you and me. We're actually here to 00:02:58.310 --> 00:03:00.430 chat about the recent Supreme Court decision 00:03:00.430 --> 00:03:05.490 that I think was issued maybe two or three weeks 00:03:05.490 --> 00:03:07.449 ago now. We had a meeting with our members about 00:03:07.449 --> 00:03:11.150 it, et cetera. And you just put out some press 00:03:11.150 --> 00:03:14.789 information earlier this week on some of our 00:03:14.789 --> 00:03:17.330 concerns. And this has to do with the Supreme 00:03:17.330 --> 00:03:19.969 Court adopting in large part, not completely, 00:03:20.110 --> 00:03:22.629 but in large part, the recommendations that were 00:03:22.629 --> 00:03:25.849 being discussed earlier this year from the State 00:03:25.849 --> 00:03:30.030 Bar Association regarding lower caseload standards 00:03:30.030 --> 00:03:34.030 for public defenders, right? Yeah, this is something 00:03:34.030 --> 00:03:37.669 we've been mourning, you know, our colleagues 00:03:37.669 --> 00:03:43.460 about. in the legislature as well as the Supreme 00:03:43.460 --> 00:03:46.560 Court itself. And we testified multiple times 00:03:46.560 --> 00:03:50.659 to them. Our members submitted lots of comments 00:03:50.659 --> 00:03:54.860 and or testified themselves. But this is an unusual 00:03:54.860 --> 00:03:57.400 case in that the Supreme Court's not ruling on 00:03:57.400 --> 00:04:01.180 a case that's before them, but in their administrative 00:04:01.180 --> 00:04:04.300 capacity. You know, the Supreme Court also sits 00:04:04.300 --> 00:04:09.270 as. in charge of the court system in Washington 00:04:09.270 --> 00:04:12.189 and establishes all the rules. And so this was 00:04:12.189 --> 00:04:15.229 a rule proposed by the Washington State Bar Association. 00:04:15.830 --> 00:04:19.209 We strenuously opposed it. And unfortunately, 00:04:19.430 --> 00:04:23.589 in large part, it was adopted by the court. So 00:04:23.589 --> 00:04:25.490 before we get into some of the specifics about 00:04:25.490 --> 00:04:28.829 that, something you just said was interesting 00:04:28.829 --> 00:04:33.029 to me that I think maybe we could explain a little 00:04:33.029 --> 00:04:35.709 bit further for our listeners. You said that 00:04:35.709 --> 00:04:38.089 the courts and the Supreme Court specifically 00:04:38.089 --> 00:04:41.089 are in charge of the court system in Washington, 00:04:41.110 --> 00:04:44.529 and they make the rules. I'm curious about that 00:04:44.529 --> 00:04:46.430 because, you know, we're really familiar with 00:04:46.430 --> 00:04:48.009 the legislature, obviously, right? That's what 00:04:48.009 --> 00:04:50.850 we talk about here mostly on the podcast. And 00:04:50.850 --> 00:04:52.930 I think a lot of our members are pretty familiar 00:04:52.930 --> 00:04:56.009 with, and if they don't know it a lot or they 00:04:56.009 --> 00:04:57.689 don't have a lot of experience with it, they 00:04:57.689 --> 00:05:00.889 know that there's this rulemaking process out 00:05:00.889 --> 00:05:04.870 there. that state agencies have authority to 00:05:04.870 --> 00:05:08.230 do. But there's a difference between legislation 00:05:08.230 --> 00:05:10.189 and rulemaking, right? And in fact, we call them 00:05:10.189 --> 00:05:13.209 different things in state law. We call legislation 00:05:13.209 --> 00:05:17.170 RCW or the Revised Code of Washington. Rules 00:05:17.170 --> 00:05:19.389 we call WACs, which I think is an appropriate 00:05:19.389 --> 00:05:25.310 name. But it stands for Washington Administrative 00:05:25.310 --> 00:05:28.730 Code. And the idea behind the WACs is to really 00:05:29.460 --> 00:05:33.079 interpret in some ways. Well, that's not right 00:05:33.079 --> 00:05:36.879 because they're not allowed to interpret legislative 00:05:36.879 --> 00:05:40.319 intent. They're supposed to implement, I guess 00:05:40.319 --> 00:05:43.600 is a better word, the RCWs. So putting some more 00:05:43.600 --> 00:05:45.899 meat on the bone, putting some more detail around 00:05:45.899 --> 00:05:49.839 the specifics on how to actually accomplish what 00:05:49.839 --> 00:05:54.459 the legislation proposes in any particular law. 00:05:54.620 --> 00:05:57.500 And there's not necessarily a whack to go with 00:05:57.500 --> 00:06:01.480 every RCW. Right. But there but there are a lot 00:06:01.480 --> 00:06:04.600 of them out there. Is the court's authority in 00:06:04.600 --> 00:06:08.560 making decisions like, for instance, caseload 00:06:08.560 --> 00:06:12.560 standards similar to the Washington Administrative 00:06:12.560 --> 00:06:16.319 Code type of process like agencies have? Or are 00:06:16.319 --> 00:06:21.740 they kind of a quasi legislative body and have 00:06:21.740 --> 00:06:25.139 greater authority than you would think that's 00:06:25.139 --> 00:06:27.930 been granted to them somehow? And how has that 00:06:27.930 --> 00:06:29.829 been granted to them? Can you explain that just 00:06:29.829 --> 00:06:32.569 a little bit for folks? It is a little confusing 00:06:32.569 --> 00:06:35.550 for people because it is unusual, I will say, 00:06:35.629 --> 00:06:39.649 because most people don't interact with the rules 00:06:39.649 --> 00:06:43.470 and procedures that the courts adopt because 00:06:43.470 --> 00:06:46.230 it's really about the conduct of the attorneys 00:06:46.230 --> 00:06:49.050 in the courtroom and the judges that oversee 00:06:49.050 --> 00:06:54.819 them. So they'll establish rules that are. You 00:06:54.819 --> 00:06:57.839 know, there's kind of a best practice nationally 00:06:57.839 --> 00:07:01.060 that most of them will follow. But then there's 00:07:01.060 --> 00:07:04.319 some local kind of, you know, traditions, rules 00:07:04.319 --> 00:07:08.519 of evidence, things like that. So if you're not, 00:07:08.519 --> 00:07:11.540 you know, in the legal profession, you probably 00:07:11.540 --> 00:07:24.540 haven't interacted much with this area. Code 00:07:24.540 --> 00:07:31.639 is driving a tremendous amount of necessary appropriation. 00:07:32.759 --> 00:07:35.220 the thing that we were most concerned about was 00:07:35.220 --> 00:07:38.060 the size of the bill that this was creating. 00:07:38.199 --> 00:07:40.959 Normally their rules don't impact, you know, 00:07:40.959 --> 00:07:44.100 and drive legislation or appropriation. They're 00:07:44.100 --> 00:07:46.379 about the, you know, how a courtroom operates. 00:07:46.579 --> 00:07:49.339 So in this case, what they've done is basically 00:07:49.339 --> 00:07:52.279 said under these rules of professional conduct, 00:07:52.339 --> 00:07:55.040 which are what all attorneys have to abide by, 00:07:55.180 --> 00:08:01.259 you can, you're capped at these many hours. or 00:08:01.259 --> 00:08:04.240 these many cases per year. And that's the crux 00:08:04.240 --> 00:08:06.839 of this is by establishing that it has all these 00:08:06.839 --> 00:08:10.860 downstream effects that are really large. There 00:08:10.860 --> 00:08:13.259 is some question about whether or not that's 00:08:13.259 --> 00:08:18.959 appropriate use of their authority, particularly 00:08:18.959 --> 00:08:22.100 since the legislature has occupied the space. 00:08:22.339 --> 00:08:27.639 They have adopted in RCW legislatively. code 00:08:27.639 --> 00:08:31.740 that says that counties must adopt caseload standards 00:08:31.740 --> 00:08:37.480 and that they may or must consider the Bar Association's 00:08:37.480 --> 00:08:40.299 recommendations. They don't require you to follow 00:08:40.299 --> 00:08:42.559 them, but they basically say that counties will 00:08:42.559 --> 00:08:46.539 have to do this. This sort of takes an end run 00:08:46.539 --> 00:08:49.600 around that legislation. So you have a separation 00:08:49.600 --> 00:08:53.190 of powers. argument that's potentially there 00:08:53.190 --> 00:08:56.110 because the three branches aren't supposed to 00:08:56.110 --> 00:08:58.789 tread into each other's territory. Yeah, that's 00:08:58.789 --> 00:09:00.429 a really good point. And that's exactly what 00:09:00.429 --> 00:09:03.330 I was thinking about when you were describing 00:09:03.330 --> 00:09:04.990 that. And I know it's going to be a question 00:09:04.990 --> 00:09:08.149 that our members have is, how is it that the 00:09:08.149 --> 00:09:10.029 court has the authority to do this, especially 00:09:10.029 --> 00:09:13.570 if the legislature has stepped in? Like you said, 00:09:13.649 --> 00:09:16.929 there's an RCW already on the books. It reminds 00:09:16.929 --> 00:09:21.200 me As I think back to kind of the McCleary case, 00:09:21.399 --> 00:09:24.039 right, which was a big landmark case around education. 00:09:24.240 --> 00:09:26.440 Everybody knows it. But if you if you're you 00:09:26.440 --> 00:09:28.519 know, if you're new and you weren't following 00:09:28.519 --> 00:09:31.019 the news before several years ago, there was 00:09:31.019 --> 00:09:33.940 a case that basically alleged that the state 00:09:33.940 --> 00:09:36.539 was not meeting its paramount responsibility, 00:09:36.820 --> 00:09:39.759 which is to fund public education. And the Supreme 00:09:39.759 --> 00:09:43.820 Court found in favor of the appellant in that 00:09:43.820 --> 00:09:46.250 particular case. And basically told the legislature, 00:09:46.529 --> 00:09:48.049 you know, you have a certain amount of time to 00:09:48.049 --> 00:09:51.029 basically fully fund education. But they didn't 00:09:51.029 --> 00:09:53.190 tell them what that amount was. They didn't tell 00:09:53.190 --> 00:09:54.929 them how to do that because that's not really 00:09:54.929 --> 00:09:57.309 within the scope of their authority. They just 00:09:57.309 --> 00:10:00.570 said, look, you have a paramount duty. Evidence 00:10:00.570 --> 00:10:02.789 has been shown to us that you're not meeting 00:10:02.789 --> 00:10:06.629 that obligation. Fix it. Right. But here they 00:10:06.629 --> 00:10:10.029 went further. They didn't say, hey, your caseload 00:10:10.029 --> 00:10:12.450 standards are too high or you're not meeting 00:10:12.450 --> 00:10:16.120 some. minimum service level for public defense 00:10:16.120 --> 00:10:20.320 or you know any other sort of reason that they 00:10:20.320 --> 00:10:22.659 could have put forward they just said we're adopting 00:10:22.659 --> 00:10:28.659 these new standards done i'm curious do you think 00:10:28.659 --> 00:10:31.139 they've overstepped their authority here or are 00:10:31.139 --> 00:10:34.120 you hearing others say that and will there be 00:10:34.120 --> 00:10:37.720 some sort of challenge to that moving forward 00:10:37.720 --> 00:10:43.279 or are we kind of stuck with their decision regardless. 00:10:43.960 --> 00:10:47.620 Yeah, it is an argument that we made before the 00:10:47.620 --> 00:10:50.679 court and effectively said, you know, you're 00:10:50.679 --> 00:10:53.580 using your administrative authority to do this. 00:10:53.779 --> 00:10:59.240 You do have constitutional authority in the, 00:10:59.299 --> 00:11:03.360 you know, before them where WSAC and some of 00:11:03.360 --> 00:11:07.320 our member counties filed suit challenging the 00:11:07.320 --> 00:11:11.639 state on the level of funding that they we're 00:11:11.639 --> 00:11:14.120 providing for indigent defense. Because one thing 00:11:14.120 --> 00:11:16.879 that everyone seems to agree on is that the system 00:11:16.879 --> 00:11:19.419 is in crisis. We just think that this approach 00:11:19.419 --> 00:11:22.820 to it exasperates the problem rather than fixing 00:11:22.820 --> 00:11:26.620 it. And so what we asked is basically, instead 00:11:26.620 --> 00:11:30.500 of going through this process where you are arguably 00:11:30.500 --> 00:11:38.019 intruding into the legislature's authority, you 00:11:38.019 --> 00:11:40.919 do have a case in front of you. that you could 00:11:40.919 --> 00:11:43.679 take. And we asked for a direct review because 00:11:43.679 --> 00:11:46.480 it's hung up on, you know, not to go into too 00:11:46.480 --> 00:11:51.639 much detail, but we are appealing a summary judgment 00:11:51.639 --> 00:11:56.360 that was on standing. And so we need to get that 00:11:56.360 --> 00:11:59.220 result. But we initially appealed it during this 00:11:59.220 --> 00:12:01.299 process to the Supreme Court for a direct review, 00:12:01.519 --> 00:12:04.100 hoping that they would take that instead. And 00:12:04.100 --> 00:12:06.419 so they could, just like in that McCleary case, 00:12:06.679 --> 00:12:10.600 they could rule. uh you're violating the constitution 00:12:10.600 --> 00:12:15.259 and you must fix the funding model for um providing 00:12:15.259 --> 00:12:18.879 uh adequate public defense instead they change 00:12:18.879 --> 00:12:20.980 the standard for what public defense looks like 00:12:20.980 --> 00:12:24.899 yeah so that's an interesting kind of wrinkle 00:12:24.899 --> 00:12:27.059 there because we've been working on this issue 00:12:27.059 --> 00:12:29.779 as a county association for many many years and 00:12:29.779 --> 00:12:32.279 i know that there's reports that go back you 00:12:32.279 --> 00:12:34.600 know to the early 2000s that the legislature 00:12:34.600 --> 00:12:38.740 themselves asked for that some of their agencies, 00:12:38.879 --> 00:12:40.700 I can't remember who did the reports, but basically 00:12:40.700 --> 00:12:42.659 told them, look, you got problems here. You need 00:12:42.659 --> 00:12:45.240 to fix this issue. And nothing's really been 00:12:45.240 --> 00:12:48.279 done to fix it. You mentioned the lawsuit. We're 00:12:48.279 --> 00:12:52.220 waiting for some procedural thing on that lawsuit 00:12:52.220 --> 00:12:55.220 right now. But since we're talking about public 00:12:55.220 --> 00:12:57.639 defense and you mentioned the lawsuit, why don't 00:12:57.639 --> 00:13:01.179 you give a quick little history of how we came 00:13:01.179 --> 00:13:04.360 to that decision and what we're actually suing? 00:13:04.809 --> 00:13:07.210 and what we're suing for and who we're suing. 00:13:08.250 --> 00:13:12.289 Yeah, so as you recall, because you were around 00:13:12.289 --> 00:13:15.149 back then as well, and we were both members. 00:13:15.750 --> 00:13:18.350 Yeah, you know, it's getting a little weird continuing 00:13:18.350 --> 00:13:21.750 to say that in many of these podcasts. I'm feeling 00:13:21.750 --> 00:13:24.929 like, wait a minute, I'm starting to be one of 00:13:24.929 --> 00:13:26.470 the old people around here. What's happening? 00:13:26.750 --> 00:13:31.940 I know. In the olden times. Yeah. Back in the 00:13:31.940 --> 00:13:34.899 old day when I was still in my 30s. Yeah. Holy 00:13:34.899 --> 00:13:39.639 cow. That was a long time ago. Yeah. So basically, 00:13:39.720 --> 00:13:42.379 we started challenging the state to increase 00:13:42.379 --> 00:13:45.139 their level of funding because Washington is 00:13:45.139 --> 00:13:48.559 unique amongst the states in how we fund not 00:13:48.559 --> 00:13:50.399 only public defense, but the criminal justice 00:13:50.399 --> 00:13:53.399 system as a whole. As our members will know, 00:13:53.559 --> 00:13:56.740 it's almost entirely funded at the local level. 00:13:57.129 --> 00:13:59.730 And when you say unique, are we the only state 00:13:59.730 --> 00:14:01.570 that does that or are we one of just a small 00:14:01.570 --> 00:14:03.110 group of states that do that? What do you mean 00:14:03.110 --> 00:14:05.870 by unique? There is a handful of other states 00:14:05.870 --> 00:14:09.350 that have similar levels of public defense funding. 00:14:10.210 --> 00:14:13.610 There is a smaller group that were, you know, 00:14:13.629 --> 00:14:16.610 the courts and the prosecution and all of that 00:14:16.610 --> 00:14:20.809 system are almost entirely funded at the local 00:14:20.809 --> 00:14:25.529 level. And so we're kind of set apart there. 00:14:25.980 --> 00:14:28.940 But if you look at that group more closely, the 00:14:28.940 --> 00:14:31.120 way their budgets work in those states, they 00:14:31.120 --> 00:14:34.159 are state -shared revenue states. So the state 00:14:34.159 --> 00:14:36.659 basically has an income tax and sends money back 00:14:36.659 --> 00:14:40.720 to the counties. So in effect, the state ends 00:14:40.720 --> 00:14:44.639 up paying for it. Washington is highly unusual 00:14:44.639 --> 00:14:48.519 in that it relies basically on local tax generation 00:14:48.519 --> 00:14:52.500 to fund these. We have to actually get the money 00:14:52.500 --> 00:14:54.039 locally, right, is what you're trying to say. 00:14:54.409 --> 00:14:57.129 Yeah, that's what's really weird, because what 00:14:57.129 --> 00:15:00.970 you end up with is not a system of justice, but 00:15:00.970 --> 00:15:05.389 39 systems of justice. And you get justice by 00:15:05.389 --> 00:15:08.110 geography. You know that what the what it looks 00:15:08.110 --> 00:15:11.529 like if you are a defendant who gets colored 00:15:11.529 --> 00:15:14.490 in King County versus one of our more rural counties 00:15:14.490 --> 00:15:17.009 is quite different. Now, it doesn't mean it's 00:15:17.009 --> 00:15:19.490 it's worse because they're doing their their 00:15:19.490 --> 00:15:27.059 best to make it work. uh funding uh the um capacity 00:15:27.059 --> 00:15:30.740 for recruitment are are quite different and yeah 00:15:30.740 --> 00:15:33.240 a bigger richer county has got more money they've 00:15:33.240 --> 00:15:35.519 got more attorneys right they've got more resources 00:15:35.519 --> 00:15:38.659 now they also have more people potentially you 00:15:38.659 --> 00:15:41.480 know more defendants um so there's a little bit 00:15:41.480 --> 00:15:44.220 of a balance there but there's a huge difference 00:15:44.220 --> 00:15:48.230 when you think about you know, just the population 00:15:48.230 --> 00:15:51.470 basis and the revenue basis in some of our larger 00:15:51.470 --> 00:15:53.450 counties versus some of our really small rural 00:15:53.450 --> 00:15:56.570 counties. I mean, even with that balance of population, 00:15:56.649 --> 00:15:59.490 it's hard to imagine that you're going to have 00:15:59.490 --> 00:16:07.210 the same level of reasonable option for public 00:16:07.210 --> 00:16:09.830 defense in one of those small rural counties 00:16:09.830 --> 00:16:11.769 that you would in one of the big urban ones. 00:16:12.330 --> 00:16:15.250 And it certainly ends up cutting into their other 00:16:15.250 --> 00:16:19.309 priorities. So to give you one example, Pierce 00:16:19.309 --> 00:16:21.870 County, which is much smaller than King County, 00:16:22.029 --> 00:16:25.950 has more felony filings. And yet they can only 00:16:25.950 --> 00:16:29.070 raise about 60 % per capita of the same revenue. 00:16:29.330 --> 00:16:33.129 So what that ultimately means is they have to 00:16:33.129 --> 00:16:37.190 plow a lot of money into their justice system 00:16:37.190 --> 00:16:41.960 to get the same cases dealt with. That also means 00:16:41.960 --> 00:16:43.940 there's less money to pay for other things that 00:16:43.940 --> 00:16:46.620 are like, you know, parks and behavioral health 00:16:46.620 --> 00:16:49.460 and public health and all the services that our 00:16:49.460 --> 00:16:51.860 members provide. You know, the justice system 00:16:51.860 --> 00:16:55.659 is primarily, you know, the bulk of the revenue 00:16:55.659 --> 00:17:00.419 is within our general funds. Right. So that's 00:17:00.419 --> 00:17:02.879 taking up and it depends on county to county, 00:17:02.919 --> 00:17:06.700 but usually it's like 70 to 80 percent of their 00:17:06.700 --> 00:17:10.430 general funds. And what's the primary source 00:17:10.430 --> 00:17:14.569 of general fund revenue for most counties? It's 00:17:14.569 --> 00:17:17.750 property tax. Which we get into another problem 00:17:17.750 --> 00:17:19.990 that the state has created for itself, where 00:17:19.990 --> 00:17:21.609 they've capped that beneath the rate of inflation. 00:17:21.829 --> 00:17:26.210 So over the last 20 years, the state has slowly 00:17:26.210 --> 00:17:29.609 strangled our taxing capacity while adding more 00:17:29.609 --> 00:17:32.349 and more responsibility. And then you add on 00:17:32.349 --> 00:17:34.750 these additional burdens into the criminal justice 00:17:34.750 --> 00:17:37.789 system. I guess what I'm saying is. It's not 00:17:37.789 --> 00:17:41.309 a surprise that both the legislature, the Supreme 00:17:41.309 --> 00:17:44.549 Court, all of our members, pretty much anyone 00:17:44.549 --> 00:17:47.450 that touches the justice system will tell you 00:17:47.450 --> 00:17:50.890 it's in crisis. And now we get this bomb dropped 00:17:50.890 --> 00:17:53.789 and it gets much, much worse. You know, I cannot 00:17:53.789 --> 00:17:57.210 do a single podcast. And I mean this. I cannot. 00:17:57.250 --> 00:17:59.170 I haven't been able to do one single podcast 00:17:59.170 --> 00:18:03.349 without talking about how these tax revenue issues 00:18:03.349 --> 00:18:05.930 weave into all of these discussions and how. 00:18:06.349 --> 00:18:09.390 It's such a limiting factor on a county's ability 00:18:09.390 --> 00:18:15.589 to provide services. And it's a real, what's 00:18:15.589 --> 00:18:17.869 the right word? I mean, it's a foundational problem 00:18:17.869 --> 00:18:21.150 that I think affects every facet of what a county 00:18:21.150 --> 00:18:23.569 does. And that's certainly the case here with 00:18:23.569 --> 00:18:26.549 public defense. And it's particularly, you know, 00:18:26.569 --> 00:18:29.450 it's not just the regressivity of the code. It's 00:18:29.450 --> 00:18:33.180 not the... just that they constrain local revenues 00:18:33.180 --> 00:18:36.400 in certain ways. It's the devolution of responsibility. 00:18:36.559 --> 00:18:39.779 That is what makes Washington unique in all aspects 00:18:39.779 --> 00:18:46.200 of the services that are provided. Very little 00:18:46.200 --> 00:18:48.460 in terms of what you think of as the government 00:18:48.460 --> 00:18:50.869 is actually provided at that state level. You 00:18:50.869 --> 00:18:53.670 know, DSHS is like the big monster agency, but 00:18:53.670 --> 00:18:56.170 most other government services are provided at 00:18:56.170 --> 00:18:58.670 that county or city level. And they've evolved 00:18:58.670 --> 00:19:01.750 so much of that revenue generation to the local 00:19:01.750 --> 00:19:04.849 level. And it's interesting. It actually came 00:19:04.849 --> 00:19:09.569 up when I was speaking to the Defenders Initiative, 00:19:09.730 --> 00:19:12.789 which is the public defense folks. They invited 00:19:12.789 --> 00:19:16.740 me to speak along with. Representative Peterson, 00:19:17.000 --> 00:19:19.339 who was our champion on our bill this session, 00:19:19.480 --> 00:19:23.019 and Representative Goodman. And so we're talking 00:19:23.019 --> 00:19:26.059 there. And before I even had a chance to point 00:19:26.059 --> 00:19:28.440 it out, Representative Goodman noted that in 00:19:28.440 --> 00:19:32.660 every meeting I have with Derek, he always brings 00:19:32.660 --> 00:19:36.619 up the tax issue. And so then when I had a chance 00:19:36.619 --> 00:19:38.400 to talk, one of the questions was, how are you 00:19:38.400 --> 00:19:41.400 going to pay for this? And that's when I had 00:19:41.400 --> 00:19:44.119 that very thin conversation that and, you know, 00:19:44.140 --> 00:19:47.640 it. He's laughing because it is true. Like literally 00:19:47.640 --> 00:19:51.019 every conversation through the sentencing reform 00:19:51.019 --> 00:19:53.640 and all the conversations we've had around justice, 00:19:53.759 --> 00:19:58.460 it does come up because, you know, we need, public 00:19:58.460 --> 00:20:01.519 law is a passion project for the folks that go 00:20:01.519 --> 00:20:03.400 into it, but they're not going to work for free. 00:20:04.019 --> 00:20:07.819 Well, it's just, it dovetails, that tax issue 00:20:07.819 --> 00:20:10.160 dovetails into every type of service that we're 00:20:10.160 --> 00:20:11.759 trying to provide at the county level. Yeah. 00:20:11.960 --> 00:20:14.869 Because it's our most flexible funding. And I 00:20:14.869 --> 00:20:16.849 know people have heard us talk about that ad 00:20:16.849 --> 00:20:18.430 nauseum, so I don't want to go into a lot of 00:20:18.430 --> 00:20:20.750 detail there. But kind of what you described 00:20:20.750 --> 00:20:25.089 is really the crux of the problem. We've done 00:20:25.089 --> 00:20:27.609 a lot of research here at WASAC around these 00:20:27.609 --> 00:20:30.109 issues. We've been working on it for a really 00:20:30.109 --> 00:20:32.230 long time. There are a series of legislative 00:20:32.230 --> 00:20:34.309 reports that have highlighted this problem. We've 00:20:34.309 --> 00:20:37.069 done our own data. If people want to go back 00:20:37.069 --> 00:20:40.049 and look at information. that we've provided 00:20:40.049 --> 00:20:43.190 and compiled over the years as we've advocated 00:20:43.190 --> 00:20:45.849 on this issue. It's very consistent, very consistent 00:20:45.849 --> 00:20:48.349 with what you said. And all of that really kind 00:20:48.349 --> 00:20:51.769 of culminated into decades of work that led to 00:20:51.769 --> 00:20:54.849 ultimately a high level of frustration with our 00:20:54.849 --> 00:20:59.430 members. That predicated the filing of a pretty 00:20:59.430 --> 00:21:03.170 unusual lawsuit by WASAC that you kind of mentioned 00:21:03.170 --> 00:21:05.950 a little earlier, again, that we're waiting for 00:21:05.950 --> 00:21:09.259 some technical decisions on, et cetera. What's 00:21:09.259 --> 00:21:11.279 the crux of the lawsuit? What are we trying to 00:21:11.279 --> 00:21:15.039 accomplish? Who are we suing? Yeah. So the the 00:21:15.039 --> 00:21:18.180 lawsuit is against the state. It's literally 00:21:18.180 --> 00:21:22.980 Wasak versus Washington. And the the crux of 00:21:22.980 --> 00:21:26.319 the argument is that this is a constitutional 00:21:26.319 --> 00:21:30.420 duty. They actually go through both the federal 00:21:30.420 --> 00:21:32.279 and state constitution. There's very few positive 00:21:32.279 --> 00:21:35.460 rights that are in them. It's usually restraining 00:21:35.460 --> 00:21:38.579 government is the main point of the constitutions. 00:21:39.000 --> 00:21:42.400 In this case, the constitution says that you 00:21:42.400 --> 00:21:48.160 must provide counsel. in to aid in the defense 00:21:48.160 --> 00:21:52.140 of for all criminal matters. The Sixth Amendment 00:21:52.140 --> 00:21:55.440 used to be interpreted as, well, we'll provide 00:21:55.440 --> 00:22:00.140 it in capital cases, for example. And then there's 00:22:00.140 --> 00:22:03.240 the famous Gideon case where the decision was 00:22:03.240 --> 00:22:06.799 that, no, you have to provide it in all criminal. 00:22:07.309 --> 00:22:10.609 cases. So that sets up what the modern public 00:22:10.609 --> 00:22:13.329 defense system is. Now, everyone handles it a 00:22:13.329 --> 00:22:15.470 little differently. You know, some of our members 00:22:15.470 --> 00:22:19.009 have largely staff employees that provide it. 00:22:19.069 --> 00:22:23.009 Others have contracts. But this is a state obligation. 00:22:23.490 --> 00:22:25.349 Counties aren't in our federal constitution. 00:22:25.569 --> 00:22:29.549 Some states don't even have counties. But our 00:22:29.549 --> 00:22:31.950 state has chosen to delegate that responsibility 00:22:31.950 --> 00:22:34.809 because it's set up its justice system to be 00:22:34.809 --> 00:22:37.509 operated at the county level. The problem is 00:22:37.509 --> 00:22:42.390 that that cost has grown substantially. So what 00:22:42.390 --> 00:22:45.750 we're arguing is that while you can delegate 00:22:45.750 --> 00:22:48.869 that responsibility, you can't do so without 00:22:48.869 --> 00:22:52.369 ensuring that locals have the capacity to pay 00:22:52.369 --> 00:22:55.630 for it. That was effectively the argument that 00:22:55.630 --> 00:22:58.710 was made in the McCleary decision. And they delegated 00:22:58.710 --> 00:23:02.829 most of these responsibilities for funding schools 00:23:02.829 --> 00:23:06.440 to school districts. And basically, their argument 00:23:06.440 --> 00:23:09.700 was we are providing for basic education under 00:23:09.700 --> 00:23:12.640 the Constitution. We're doing so by giving them 00:23:12.640 --> 00:23:15.019 authority to tax and all that kind of stuff. 00:23:15.099 --> 00:23:17.420 And that didn't work. Right. And that did not 00:23:17.420 --> 00:23:21.259 work. The court said, hey, you can't you can't 00:23:21.259 --> 00:23:22.980 say that you're meeting your obligation, your 00:23:22.980 --> 00:23:25.839 paramount duty to fund public education at an 00:23:25.839 --> 00:23:28.420 equitable level if you're relying only on the 00:23:28.420 --> 00:23:30.619 ability of the local community to raise funds 00:23:30.619 --> 00:23:34.089 to provide that. And that's exactly, I mean, 00:23:34.109 --> 00:23:36.569 I see where you're headed right here. It seems 00:23:36.569 --> 00:23:39.529 to me that what you said before with how they're 00:23:39.529 --> 00:23:43.190 funding public defense is really in line with 00:23:43.190 --> 00:23:45.170 their decision under McCleary that, hey, you're 00:23:45.170 --> 00:23:48.289 still, here's another paramount duty, a constitutional 00:23:48.289 --> 00:23:52.869 responsibility of the state that's been delegated 00:23:52.869 --> 00:23:54.990 to the counties. And again, you're relying on 00:23:54.990 --> 00:23:56.950 their ability to raise funds locally in order 00:23:56.950 --> 00:24:00.210 to meet that obligation. There's got to be a 00:24:00.210 --> 00:24:04.670 huge disparity from one place to the other in 00:24:04.670 --> 00:24:08.089 how much they can actually raise and how much 00:24:08.089 --> 00:24:11.369 is spent on public funds. Yeah, absolutely. You 00:24:11.369 --> 00:24:14.910 know, and so those disparities not only create 00:24:14.910 --> 00:24:17.990 burdens on taxpayers that are, you know, unfair 00:24:17.990 --> 00:24:21.720 because if you have... large commercial properties 00:24:21.720 --> 00:24:26.119 that are really high value, that will tend to 00:24:26.119 --> 00:24:28.619 spread the burden differently to homeowners. 00:24:29.579 --> 00:24:33.940 So getting back to the McQueary thing, when you 00:24:33.940 --> 00:24:36.380 looked at the tax burden for raising the same 00:24:36.380 --> 00:24:39.759 amount of revenue per pupil in Tacoma versus 00:24:39.759 --> 00:24:44.599 in Bellevue was astonishing. several times the 00:24:44.599 --> 00:24:47.039 amount of taxes that people had to vote for themselves. 00:24:47.339 --> 00:24:50.359 And so ultimately, you are going to create some 00:24:50.359 --> 00:24:52.440 inequities across the system. And the same is 00:24:52.440 --> 00:24:55.920 true county by county. So, yeah, we're basically 00:24:55.920 --> 00:24:58.839 making that argument. The only difference between 00:24:58.839 --> 00:25:03.859 the two situations, one is in our state constitution 00:25:03.859 --> 00:25:09.259 for education, the paramount duty is for education. 00:25:09.519 --> 00:25:13.329 In the case of public defense. It's in our federal 00:25:13.329 --> 00:25:17.490 constitution and federal court cases. In fact, 00:25:17.509 --> 00:25:19.609 there was some discussion at that time, you may 00:25:19.609 --> 00:25:22.789 recall, about whether or not the proper venue 00:25:22.789 --> 00:25:25.829 was federal or state court. Ultimately, for lots 00:25:25.829 --> 00:25:28.710 of reasons we don't need to go into, the decision 00:25:28.710 --> 00:25:32.190 was to go to the state. But, you know, it is 00:25:32.190 --> 00:25:35.529 the state's obligation to guarantee this right. 00:25:35.710 --> 00:25:38.609 And what we're arguing is right now they are 00:25:38.609 --> 00:25:42.579 not doing so. Okay. So we're hoping to get, you 00:25:42.579 --> 00:25:45.480 know, more resources from the state, a higher 00:25:45.480 --> 00:25:48.319 level of funding, maybe even ultimately some 00:25:48.319 --> 00:25:51.359 sort of standardized statewide system if that's 00:25:51.359 --> 00:25:54.380 the solution. I think the solution itself is 00:25:54.380 --> 00:25:57.900 probably remains to be seen. It'll be if we get 00:25:57.900 --> 00:26:00.980 a decision in our favor, it might be along the 00:26:00.980 --> 00:26:03.359 lines of the Clary, which is, yeah, you're not 00:26:03.359 --> 00:26:05.180 doing it right. Go fix it and bring it back. 00:26:05.259 --> 00:26:07.079 Bring a solution to us. We'll tell you if it's 00:26:07.079 --> 00:26:09.000 adequate, something like that. Is that kind of 00:26:09.000 --> 00:26:12.480 what we're thinking? We've tried multiple different 00:26:12.480 --> 00:26:17.240 ideas on how to approach this. Ultimately, the 00:26:17.240 --> 00:26:20.480 issue comes down to funding. In the beginning, 00:26:20.640 --> 00:26:23.940 I would say that running a policy bill was more 00:26:23.940 --> 00:26:29.359 about just getting a hearing because you've been 00:26:29.359 --> 00:26:31.839 in those ways and means committees. There's not 00:26:31.839 --> 00:26:34.599 exactly a great opportunity to make your case 00:26:34.599 --> 00:26:37.460 for additional funding for something like this 00:26:37.460 --> 00:26:39.680 because a lot of the decisions are already made. 00:26:40.079 --> 00:26:42.539 In a minute and 30 seconds. Yeah, in a minute 00:26:42.539 --> 00:26:47.220 and 30 seconds. So some of it was to get a hearing. 00:26:47.400 --> 00:26:49.859 But over time, it was like, actually, you know, 00:26:49.859 --> 00:26:52.140 having a statutory structure and some predictability 00:26:52.140 --> 00:26:55.359 would be good for, you know. ensuring a basic 00:26:55.359 --> 00:26:59.059 constitutional right. Yeah, I think that that 00:26:59.059 --> 00:27:02.140 probably is the best approach. We've tried different 00:27:02.140 --> 00:27:04.279 formulas and everything. This last session, we 00:27:04.279 --> 00:27:06.339 probably got further than we ever have before 00:27:06.339 --> 00:27:11.240 by arguing for a split that we could, you know, 00:27:11.240 --> 00:27:14.380 agree to that would effectively reimburse counties 00:27:14.380 --> 00:27:17.799 for their actual costs. I think that's a pretty 00:27:17.799 --> 00:27:19.960 fair way of doing things because it would basically. 00:27:20.960 --> 00:27:23.539 account for differences in the number of not 00:27:23.539 --> 00:27:26.500 only charges, but actual public defense cases, 00:27:26.579 --> 00:27:28.380 because not everyone that, you know, commits 00:27:28.380 --> 00:27:32.480 a crime is indigent. So, you know, making sure 00:27:32.480 --> 00:27:35.859 that there's some, you know, equity in the system 00:27:35.859 --> 00:27:38.799 between the various different jurisdictions. 00:27:39.079 --> 00:27:42.200 You know, one thing that we haven't pointed out 00:27:42.200 --> 00:27:44.940 as much, and I think needs to be part of the 00:27:44.940 --> 00:27:47.420 conversation now that we know this is coming. 00:27:47.869 --> 00:27:50.029 is the criminal side isn't the only one that's 00:27:50.029 --> 00:27:52.730 going to be impacted by this. We do have a civil 00:27:52.730 --> 00:27:56.869 law system that people avail themselves of the 00:27:56.869 --> 00:27:59.930 courts to settle all kinds of disputes. It's 00:27:59.930 --> 00:28:03.930 one of the things that makes our system of capitalism 00:28:03.930 --> 00:28:06.809 work is contracts, for example, and being able 00:28:06.809 --> 00:28:09.309 to rely on all those things. Yeah, but people 00:28:09.309 --> 00:28:13.130 can't get a public defender or a public prosecutor, 00:28:13.410 --> 00:28:16.470 for instance, for... for civil cases, can they? 00:28:16.549 --> 00:28:18.269 That's not a guaranteed right under the Constitution. 00:28:18.289 --> 00:28:20.990 Well, there are some limited civil cases. That's 00:28:20.990 --> 00:28:23.490 not where I was going with it. It's that with 00:28:23.490 --> 00:28:28.309 additional time spent with an additional pressure 00:28:28.309 --> 00:28:31.750 on those local resources to run that side of 00:28:31.750 --> 00:28:34.130 the criminal justice system, it's going to be 00:28:34.130 --> 00:28:37.029 harder even to access that civil side. Cases 00:28:37.029 --> 00:28:40.860 are already backlogged in most of those. jurisdictions, 00:28:40.860 --> 00:28:44.279 now imagine that you're tripling the cost of 00:28:44.279 --> 00:28:48.339 one leg of the criminal justice system. I suspect 00:28:48.339 --> 00:28:50.519 that, you know, and I've talked with our counterparts 00:28:50.519 --> 00:28:52.460 at the Association of Washington Business about 00:28:52.460 --> 00:28:55.200 this, is that I have concerns about the impacts 00:28:55.200 --> 00:28:57.599 that this is going to have on the broader economy. 00:28:57.720 --> 00:29:00.640 You know, that, you know, right now people may 00:29:00.640 --> 00:29:03.019 be thinking, well, I'm only impacted if I'm, 00:29:03.019 --> 00:29:05.180 you know, getting arrested or doing something 00:29:05.180 --> 00:29:08.319 wrong or if a crime is committed against me. 00:29:08.650 --> 00:29:11.650 But if you are needing to seek relief in the 00:29:11.650 --> 00:29:14.650 courts for civil matters, which is pretty common, 00:29:14.710 --> 00:29:18.049 or just having that threat there, because that's 00:29:18.049 --> 00:29:21.069 what makes our system work. It's based on trust 00:29:21.069 --> 00:29:23.470 that you can always get it resolved by going 00:29:23.470 --> 00:29:26.730 to courts. That system is embedded within those 00:29:26.730 --> 00:29:30.150 same superior courts. Yeah, there's only so many 00:29:30.150 --> 00:29:33.009 of them. And there's only so many hours of the 00:29:33.009 --> 00:29:35.769 day and so many days in the week and weeks in 00:29:35.769 --> 00:29:39.680 the year, etc. That was a good explanation of 00:29:39.680 --> 00:29:41.500 kind of where counties are, some of the research 00:29:41.500 --> 00:29:45.539 we've done. I remember being in a lot of those 00:29:45.539 --> 00:29:48.980 conversations and kind of getting through all 00:29:48.980 --> 00:29:53.059 of that material and understanding exactly why 00:29:53.059 --> 00:29:55.400 we were doing what we're doing and getting all 00:29:55.400 --> 00:29:56.880 of our members on the same page. And I think 00:29:56.880 --> 00:29:59.900 over the years, we've accomplished that. And 00:29:59.900 --> 00:30:02.779 we have a really good sense of where we're headed 00:30:02.779 --> 00:30:06.299 and what we're trying to actually achieve. with 00:30:06.299 --> 00:30:11.619 the lawsuit. We're looking at it from a, you 00:30:11.619 --> 00:30:14.220 know, equal access or equitable access to justice, 00:30:14.400 --> 00:30:16.660 trying to relieve this justice by geography thing, 00:30:16.779 --> 00:30:19.299 right, that we see as a problem. We're also looking 00:30:19.299 --> 00:30:21.740 at it from a cost perspective and the fact that 00:30:21.740 --> 00:30:24.839 the cost continues to skyrocket. And this latest 00:30:24.839 --> 00:30:28.460 decision and previous decisions by the Supreme 00:30:28.460 --> 00:30:31.180 Court and, you know, that were based on recommendations 00:30:31.180 --> 00:30:36.539 by the Washington... State Bar Association that 00:30:36.539 --> 00:30:40.720 affected caseload standards and really only reduced 00:30:40.720 --> 00:30:43.500 them, certainly not increased them, have increased 00:30:43.500 --> 00:30:47.880 costs over time for us as well. Now, people might 00:30:47.880 --> 00:30:51.299 ask why. From my point of view, I think they're 00:30:51.299 --> 00:30:53.980 thinking about the same things we are, at least 00:30:53.980 --> 00:30:57.420 partly. And I'm interested if you're getting 00:30:57.420 --> 00:31:00.579 that from them as well. I mean, really, the reason 00:31:00.579 --> 00:31:03.160 they want to reduce caseload standards. is to 00:31:03.160 --> 00:31:06.000 provide a better system for public defense, right? 00:31:06.039 --> 00:31:11.339 To make sure that folks who are arrested and 00:31:11.339 --> 00:31:13.720 who are accused of a crime, who need the assistance 00:31:13.720 --> 00:31:17.019 of an attorney but can't afford it, are actually 00:31:17.019 --> 00:31:20.700 getting good assistance, right? They're getting 00:31:20.700 --> 00:31:25.519 something that is guaranteed to them as a right 00:31:25.519 --> 00:31:27.839 in the Constitution. When you look back at our 00:31:27.839 --> 00:31:31.259 founding fathers, John Adams specifically said, 00:31:32.359 --> 00:31:36.480 That the presumption of innocence when accused 00:31:36.480 --> 00:31:39.119 and the right to counsel if you couldn't afford 00:31:39.119 --> 00:31:40.779 it, effective counsel when you couldn't afford 00:31:40.779 --> 00:31:44.740 it, was one of the foundational principles of 00:31:44.740 --> 00:31:49.099 our government. Like one of the actual bedrock 00:31:49.099 --> 00:31:52.220 pieces. Now, I know I probably butchered that 00:31:52.220 --> 00:31:54.039 completely, but that was the gist of what he 00:31:54.039 --> 00:31:57.180 said. Yeah, he interpreted the British troops 00:31:57.180 --> 00:31:59.960 that were in the Boston Massacre. He did indeed. 00:32:00.440 --> 00:32:04.539 And took a lot of heat, him and his family, for 00:32:04.539 --> 00:32:08.000 doing so. But he was a man who strongly believed 00:32:08.000 --> 00:32:11.019 in the right to counsel and the right to a vigorous 00:32:11.019 --> 00:32:14.119 defense as an accused individual in our justice 00:32:14.119 --> 00:32:17.359 system. And that, you know, this idea that just 00:32:17.359 --> 00:32:19.299 because you were accused, you were automatically, 00:32:19.460 --> 00:32:23.019 you know, found guilty, et cetera, was not something 00:32:23.019 --> 00:32:25.640 that the New World or a civilized society in 00:32:25.640 --> 00:32:27.900 the United States should prescribe. We should 00:32:27.900 --> 00:32:33.299 have something better. So that kind of ideological 00:32:33.299 --> 00:32:36.059 point of view is carried forward today in the 00:32:36.059 --> 00:32:39.640 spirit, I think, of these recommendations from 00:32:39.640 --> 00:32:44.059 the Bar Association and indeed in the decision 00:32:44.059 --> 00:32:46.640 from the Supreme Court. They're certainly not 00:32:46.640 --> 00:32:48.339 looking at it from a cost perspective, though, 00:32:48.380 --> 00:32:51.039 right? And I'm just curious, you know, where 00:32:51.039 --> 00:32:53.039 do you think the balance is there? And do you 00:32:53.039 --> 00:32:55.440 agree that that's what's motivating these decisions? 00:32:56.589 --> 00:32:59.710 Yeah, I do think basically they're looking at 00:32:59.710 --> 00:33:03.970 the same problem we are and and took an approach 00:33:03.970 --> 00:33:07.190 that I think will exasperate it. But it was definitely 00:33:07.190 --> 00:33:10.809 trying to identify the same issue. And it's that 00:33:10.809 --> 00:33:15.569 people providing public defense services are 00:33:15.569 --> 00:33:18.470 probably overworked, not in every single case. 00:33:18.490 --> 00:33:21.369 But, you know, we've heard a lot about burnout. 00:33:21.369 --> 00:33:23.740 One of the things that was. Kind of hard to listen 00:33:23.740 --> 00:33:26.640 to in those Supreme Court hearings was some of 00:33:26.640 --> 00:33:28.960 the public defenders that were passionate about 00:33:28.960 --> 00:33:32.460 the job, but were were either burnout and thinking 00:33:32.460 --> 00:33:36.319 about leaving or already had left because it 00:33:36.319 --> 00:33:38.819 is difficult. You know, one thing that I think 00:33:38.819 --> 00:33:41.400 we have to remember, and this is true on both 00:33:41.400 --> 00:33:46.380 sides of the the the docket, it's, you know, 00:33:46.380 --> 00:33:49.000 some of these are really terrible cases. And 00:33:49.000 --> 00:33:51.660 being the prosecutor in it or the public defendant 00:33:51.660 --> 00:33:54.559 are necessary parts of our system to resolve 00:33:54.559 --> 00:34:00.180 that issue, to speak for the victims and to make 00:34:00.180 --> 00:34:04.799 sure that the public is protected. But that takes 00:34:04.799 --> 00:34:07.519 a toll on a person. And so if you're dealing 00:34:07.519 --> 00:34:10.659 with too many cases, you're going to miss things. 00:34:10.920 --> 00:34:14.159 And, you know, we all have that in our jobs. 00:34:14.260 --> 00:34:16.559 When we get too busy, stuff starts dropping. 00:34:18.240 --> 00:34:21.659 It's really important that we not have that happen 00:34:21.659 --> 00:34:26.579 in criminal cases because it involves situations 00:34:26.579 --> 00:34:29.579 where we are now going to probably deprive people 00:34:29.579 --> 00:34:33.380 of their rights, you know, by incarceration or 00:34:33.380 --> 00:34:37.679 their finances. You know, they may get fines 00:34:37.679 --> 00:34:41.159 or whatever. In the worst cases, maybe even their 00:34:41.159 --> 00:34:44.940 life. Yeah, exactly. So it is it is critical 00:34:44.940 --> 00:34:47.719 component of our system. It also provides a check 00:34:47.719 --> 00:34:49.559 on the government. You know, the government we 00:34:49.559 --> 00:34:52.800 we trust law enforcement and prosecutors with 00:34:52.800 --> 00:34:56.880 a lot of authority to take away our rights. And 00:34:56.880 --> 00:34:59.420 you want to make sure that that's you know, there's 00:34:59.420 --> 00:35:02.139 a tension there that that they're only doing 00:35:02.139 --> 00:35:06.199 it in cases where absolutely is they have you 00:35:06.199 --> 00:35:09.039 dead to rights. You committed a crime. We know 00:35:09.039 --> 00:35:13.159 for a fact. That isn't always the case because 00:35:13.159 --> 00:35:16.380 people are let out of prison and exonerated frequently. 00:35:16.980 --> 00:35:20.059 So stuff still gets through. But you want to 00:35:20.059 --> 00:35:23.320 reduce that as much as possible. So it's a necessary 00:35:23.320 --> 00:35:27.219 component of the system. But, you know, in trying 00:35:27.219 --> 00:35:31.599 to not overwork them, you know, they decided 00:35:31.599 --> 00:35:34.500 that we'll set a standard. Instead of saying, 00:35:34.559 --> 00:35:36.980 let's get them more resources so that they can 00:35:36.980 --> 00:35:40.079 hire an adequate number. So what this will actually 00:35:40.079 --> 00:35:43.219 do is reduce the number of cases that they can 00:35:43.219 --> 00:35:48.300 handle, meaning that we either have to add additional 00:35:48.300 --> 00:35:52.059 people to take those cases or we end up with 00:35:52.059 --> 00:35:55.840 a situation where you can't charge as much. And 00:35:55.840 --> 00:35:58.000 that's where it gets really scary, where it becomes 00:35:58.000 --> 00:36:01.239 a public safety threat. So this idea behind caseload 00:36:01.239 --> 00:36:05.639 standards basically creates. level right it says 00:36:05.639 --> 00:36:08.840 as a defense attorney a public defender you can 00:36:08.840 --> 00:36:11.179 only have so many of these types of cases a year 00:36:11.179 --> 00:36:13.619 and so many of these types of cases a year and 00:36:13.619 --> 00:36:18.000 that by doing that they're hoping to make sure 00:36:18.000 --> 00:36:21.559 that there's enough time right and enough energy 00:36:21.559 --> 00:36:23.780 on the part of that public defender to actually 00:36:23.780 --> 00:36:26.539 mount an adequate defense you know check all 00:36:26.539 --> 00:36:29.900 the boxes you know limit their mistakes, hopefully 00:36:29.900 --> 00:36:32.099 eliminate their mistakes, and really do a good 00:36:32.099 --> 00:36:38.780 job defending their clients. In some cases, well, 00:36:38.880 --> 00:36:40.639 in many cases, I think across the state, we're 00:36:40.639 --> 00:36:42.659 seeing a shortage, right, of public defenders. 00:36:42.880 --> 00:36:45.440 We're also seeing public defenders say that the 00:36:45.440 --> 00:36:48.159 compensation isn't enough. And you talk about 00:36:48.159 --> 00:36:49.719 the burnout, and I saw some of that testimony, 00:36:49.860 --> 00:36:52.059 and some of it was pretty moving, especially 00:36:52.059 --> 00:36:54.300 for some folks who are obviously pretty passionate 00:36:54.300 --> 00:36:57.059 about their jobs. And the burnout wasn't always, 00:36:57.300 --> 00:36:59.980 you know, from the number of cases. Some of it 00:36:59.980 --> 00:37:02.599 was the types of cases as well, right? I mean, 00:37:02.619 --> 00:37:04.599 if you're dealing with a lot of, you know, child 00:37:04.599 --> 00:37:07.679 abuse cases, for instance, I mean, that can really 00:37:07.679 --> 00:37:09.900 wear on someone. If you're dealing with a lot 00:37:09.900 --> 00:37:13.639 of capital, you know, felony murder type cases, 00:37:13.739 --> 00:37:16.320 you know, that can really wear on someone as 00:37:16.320 --> 00:37:18.519 well, I think, over time. So there's some of 00:37:18.519 --> 00:37:21.559 that going on. But, you know, we've seen these 00:37:21.559 --> 00:37:24.559 case standards reduced before. Right. Wasn't 00:37:24.559 --> 00:37:27.239 it about a decade ago? There was another reduction. 00:37:27.739 --> 00:37:31.119 Yeah. In case standards. So we saw that and that 00:37:31.119 --> 00:37:33.579 that that reduction in standards was supposed 00:37:33.579 --> 00:37:37.000 to address that issue and was supposed to achieve 00:37:37.000 --> 00:37:40.739 what this new decision, which even lowers them 00:37:40.739 --> 00:37:46.960 further, is proposed to do as well. Why? Why 00:37:46.960 --> 00:37:50.099 do we need to? What happened? What happened 10 00:37:50.099 --> 00:37:53.400 years ago? that we need another reduction in 00:37:53.400 --> 00:37:57.980 caseload standards today. Yeah. Those standard 00:37:57.980 --> 00:38:03.159 changes, they about doubled the amount of funding 00:38:03.159 --> 00:38:09.739 that counties were spending on public defense. 00:38:10.019 --> 00:38:14.059 Right. Does that mean they actually cut the previous 00:38:14.059 --> 00:38:18.519 standards in half? So the standards were not 00:38:18.519 --> 00:38:21.969 new. They had standards, but they were based 00:38:21.969 --> 00:38:24.949 on, they were more qualitative versus quantitative. 00:38:25.309 --> 00:38:29.369 This was an effort to actually put like, you 00:38:29.369 --> 00:38:31.809 know, actual numbers to it rather than having 00:38:31.809 --> 00:38:34.750 a standard that was more about, you know, the 00:38:34.750 --> 00:38:40.190 duty for effective counsel. And so this is going 00:38:40.190 --> 00:38:45.090 a step further. It's based on a. You know, there 00:38:45.090 --> 00:38:48.190 was a Iran study and it was actually kind of 00:38:48.190 --> 00:38:51.530 a study of studies. They sampled others that 00:38:51.530 --> 00:38:57.110 were done about how many hours it takes to effectively 00:38:57.110 --> 00:39:01.070 work a case. It did not involve Washington, notably. 00:39:01.250 --> 00:39:04.889 That was something that particularly our partners 00:39:04.889 --> 00:39:08.269 in the Washington Association of Prosecutors, 00:39:08.309 --> 00:39:12.469 prosecuting attorneys, they pointed out that. 00:39:12.960 --> 00:39:15.079 You know, this isn't really relevant to Washington 00:39:15.079 --> 00:39:18.619 because, you know, it didn't involve our specific 00:39:18.619 --> 00:39:24.480 way of conducting our cases. But flawed that 00:39:24.480 --> 00:39:28.440 the study may have been, the bar recommendations 00:39:28.440 --> 00:39:32.119 effectively adopted them and said, this shows 00:39:32.119 --> 00:39:36.179 how many hours are needed. Here's how many hours 00:39:36.179 --> 00:39:39.760 an individual can spend on cases in a year. So 00:39:39.760 --> 00:39:43.460 that results in. cap on the number of cases that 00:39:43.460 --> 00:39:45.940 you can take on. And they're broken down a little 00:39:45.940 --> 00:39:48.440 bit by category. You know, it separates out felonies 00:39:48.440 --> 00:39:51.239 and misdemeanors and civil commitment cases. 00:39:51.579 --> 00:39:57.139 But it doesn't, the court did not go so far as 00:39:57.139 --> 00:40:00.300 to adopt the case weighting, which says, you 00:40:00.300 --> 00:40:02.539 know, different types of cases require more hours. 00:40:02.559 --> 00:40:07.380 So a complicated, you know, murder trial, for 00:40:07.380 --> 00:40:10.409 example. might take more time than a felony theft. 00:40:12.329 --> 00:40:16.389 Okay. So what you're saying is the caseload standards 00:40:16.389 --> 00:40:19.949 that we all had to adjust to about a decade ago 00:40:19.949 --> 00:40:23.730 were really kind of the first time that the courts 00:40:23.730 --> 00:40:25.869 actually put a hard number out there. Before, 00:40:26.090 --> 00:40:28.809 it was a lot more organic. It was based on this 00:40:28.809 --> 00:40:32.869 idea of what it actually takes to provide adequate 00:40:32.869 --> 00:40:35.010 defense under the Constitution, and that could 00:40:35.010 --> 00:40:37.789 be interpreted a lot of different ways. And probably 00:40:37.789 --> 00:40:40.690 was, right, from county to county. And they created 00:40:40.690 --> 00:40:43.789 some new standard about 10 years ago. And then 00:40:43.789 --> 00:40:48.610 since then, they've done this, well, maybe survey 00:40:48.610 --> 00:40:51.530 of study. You say study of studies, right? But 00:40:51.530 --> 00:40:53.769 this survey of different studies and compiled 00:40:53.769 --> 00:40:56.150 some information said, okay, here's what we think 00:40:56.150 --> 00:40:58.989 it actually takes to do different categories 00:40:58.989 --> 00:41:01.989 of cases. And then they further adjusted the 00:41:01.989 --> 00:41:04.130 caseload standards based on that information. 00:41:04.670 --> 00:41:07.289 Is that what you just said? Okay. So what did 00:41:07.289 --> 00:41:11.150 they go from to? So, for instance, misdemeanor 00:41:11.150 --> 00:41:13.369 cases, they could have done how many before? 00:41:13.469 --> 00:41:16.190 And now the new standard says they can only do 00:41:16.190 --> 00:41:19.710 X. And the same thing for other types of cases. 00:41:19.769 --> 00:41:23.110 What are the actual changes there in the decision? 00:41:23.530 --> 00:41:27.710 So I don't have the old standards in place, but 00:41:27.710 --> 00:41:31.650 just know it was about, they were about a third 00:41:31.650 --> 00:41:37.820 of what you hear here. Case credits per year 00:41:37.820 --> 00:41:41.880 for felony cases are 47. For misdemeanor cases, 00:41:42.059 --> 00:41:47.199 it's 120. And for full -time civil commitment 00:41:47.199 --> 00:41:53.599 attorneys, it's 250. Okay, so for felony cases, 00:41:53.679 --> 00:41:57.820 the new standard is 47. Yes. So before, it would 00:41:57.820 --> 00:42:01.559 have been right around 150 or so? A little less 00:42:01.559 --> 00:42:04.389 than that, but I... But pretty close? Yeah. Okay. 00:42:04.429 --> 00:42:06.730 So they dropped them essentially two thirds is 00:42:06.730 --> 00:42:08.250 what you're saying. So the new standards are 00:42:08.250 --> 00:42:10.250 about a third of what they would have been previously. 00:42:10.730 --> 00:42:14.090 Yeah. Basically to accomplish the same tasks, 00:42:14.369 --> 00:42:18.130 they effectively tripled the number of attorneys 00:42:18.130 --> 00:42:21.309 that will be necessary. Yeah. And they tripled 00:42:21.309 --> 00:42:24.269 the cost at least, wouldn't you say? I mean, 00:42:24.309 --> 00:42:27.469 ballpark, yes. However, that's not consideration. 00:42:28.320 --> 00:42:30.500 for all of the other costs that are going into 00:42:30.500 --> 00:42:33.059 it. So you're probably going to need some significant 00:42:33.059 --> 00:42:37.280 capital changes. So requiring more space, you'll 00:42:37.280 --> 00:42:40.480 probably need more additional support staff for 00:42:40.480 --> 00:42:44.659 all of that. And then because we have a very 00:42:44.659 --> 00:42:47.820 low supply of attorneys willing to go into public 00:42:47.820 --> 00:42:50.820 law in the first place, that's going to drive 00:42:50.820 --> 00:42:53.900 up their costs. So this is the rare case where 00:42:53.900 --> 00:42:59.019 we have policymakers who are increasing demand 00:42:59.019 --> 00:43:02.639 while also simultaneously limiting supply. And 00:43:02.639 --> 00:43:06.840 as we know from our Econ 101, that will drive 00:43:06.840 --> 00:43:10.559 up costs. So while the ballpark estimate we've 00:43:10.559 --> 00:43:15.320 been giving our legislative or our friends in 00:43:15.320 --> 00:43:17.800 the legislature is about triple the cost, it's 00:43:17.800 --> 00:43:19.920 probably substantially more than that when it's 00:43:19.920 --> 00:43:23.070 all said and done. Wow. Well, if counties are 00:43:23.070 --> 00:43:26.349 struggling now to meet their obligations to provide 00:43:26.349 --> 00:43:28.570 adequate public defense and make sure that the 00:43:28.570 --> 00:43:31.590 rights of citizens under the Constitution are 00:43:31.590 --> 00:43:34.590 upheld, it seems to me that this is going to 00:43:34.590 --> 00:43:36.409 make it a lot harder. And you're going to have 00:43:36.409 --> 00:43:39.349 a lot more cases where either that isn't happening 00:43:39.349 --> 00:43:42.269 or counties are going to have to start doing 00:43:42.269 --> 00:43:45.150 something or a lot of things differently. What 00:43:45.150 --> 00:43:46.650 do you think the implications are actually going 00:43:46.650 --> 00:43:51.349 to be here? The thing that we told the court 00:43:51.349 --> 00:43:54.530 at the time, and we, you know, frankly, our partners 00:43:54.530 --> 00:43:58.949 elsewhere all said is that this is unlikely to 00:43:58.949 --> 00:44:03.170 actually happen. And the reason is that, you 00:44:03.170 --> 00:44:05.670 know, the cost is probably north of a billion 00:44:05.670 --> 00:44:12.469 dollars per biennium. And I don't know about 00:44:12.469 --> 00:44:15.150 you, but I don't know where we're going to come 00:44:15.150 --> 00:44:20.030 up with a billion dollars per biennium. What 00:44:20.030 --> 00:44:23.809 that means is that they will have to go the other 00:44:23.809 --> 00:44:26.610 route and reduce the number of cases. That means 00:44:26.610 --> 00:44:31.030 charging less. That means agreeing to more plea 00:44:31.030 --> 00:44:34.510 agreements. That may mean in certain cases, a 00:44:34.510 --> 00:44:37.809 chaotic kind of episode where counties are unable 00:44:37.809 --> 00:44:40.590 to find a public defender in time. And you have 00:44:40.590 --> 00:44:44.150 people who will be set free because there isn't 00:44:44.150 --> 00:44:47.590 legal counsel ready to for their arraignment. 00:44:47.929 --> 00:44:50.530 Now, isn't this flipping the script potentially 00:44:50.530 --> 00:44:52.369 a little bit then, Derek, when you're talking 00:44:52.369 --> 00:44:56.869 about, you know, the real life kind of practical 00:44:56.869 --> 00:45:00.070 implications of dealing with these significant 00:45:00.070 --> 00:45:03.429 cost increases? Well, you know, one strategy 00:45:03.429 --> 00:45:07.469 being charging less or letting people out once 00:45:07.469 --> 00:45:08.909 they've been accused because we don't have the 00:45:08.909 --> 00:45:11.050 resources to actually provide them a public defender 00:45:11.050 --> 00:45:13.469 and we'd be violating their rights otherwise. 00:45:14.190 --> 00:45:16.349 You're flipping the script a little bit in that 00:45:16.349 --> 00:45:19.489 now we're not just talking about access to justice 00:45:19.489 --> 00:45:23.030 and maintaining people's rights to an adequate 00:45:23.030 --> 00:45:24.869 defense, but now you're talking about access 00:45:24.869 --> 00:45:28.289 to justice for victims as well. Absolutely. That 00:45:28.289 --> 00:45:32.949 is going to be my primary concern is, you know, 00:45:32.969 --> 00:45:36.369 if victims no longer feel like they are being 00:45:36.369 --> 00:45:38.570 represented. Because keep in mind, you know, 00:45:38.590 --> 00:45:44.349 when the prosecutor shows up to... the the in 00:45:44.349 --> 00:45:46.769 a hearing, they always say on behalf of the state. 00:45:46.849 --> 00:45:51.489 Right. Because we have taken away the the responsibility 00:45:51.489 --> 00:45:55.769 for justice and assume that to represent the 00:45:55.769 --> 00:45:58.610 people, not that particular victim. However, 00:45:58.789 --> 00:46:01.550 if we end up in a circumstance and this is something 00:46:01.550 --> 00:46:03.769 that our colleagues in WAPA have been warning 00:46:03.769 --> 00:46:05.789 about, where the victims aren't feeling like 00:46:05.789 --> 00:46:08.989 their rights are being respected, that. Justice 00:46:08.989 --> 00:46:11.969 isn't being served to them. Do we then have another 00:46:11.969 --> 00:46:15.550 problem called vigilantias where people are taking 00:46:15.550 --> 00:46:18.050 justice into their own hands? Well, that's exactly 00:46:18.050 --> 00:46:19.510 what I was thinking, but I wasn't going to say 00:46:19.510 --> 00:46:22.170 those. I wasn't going to say those words. We're 00:46:22.170 --> 00:46:24.230 going to have to talk about a lot of uncomfortable 00:46:24.230 --> 00:46:28.789 things. I mean, that's pretty uncomfortable when 00:46:28.789 --> 00:46:32.730 people no longer trust the court system and our 00:46:32.730 --> 00:46:34.849 system of justice to actually deliver justice. 00:46:35.599 --> 00:46:38.000 or to actually give them the opportunity to make 00:46:38.000 --> 00:46:40.179 their argument for justice and they decide that 00:46:40.179 --> 00:46:43.500 it's going to be up to them to take justice into 00:46:43.500 --> 00:46:45.599 their own hands. I mean, that's what you're talking 00:46:45.599 --> 00:46:48.420 about, essentially. There was a case not long 00:46:48.420 --> 00:46:50.159 ago, because this is already starting to happen 00:46:50.159 --> 00:46:52.400 in some of our counties, where they are having 00:46:52.400 --> 00:46:56.320 the most difficulty recruiting. One of our counties 00:46:56.320 --> 00:47:00.440 where a violent rapist was set free because the 00:47:00.440 --> 00:47:02.960 72 hours had run up and they couldn't find a 00:47:02.960 --> 00:47:06.159 public defender to take on the case. Imagine 00:47:06.159 --> 00:47:09.539 you're a family member or that victim. That's 00:47:09.539 --> 00:47:12.800 horrible. How you would look at that. That is 00:47:12.800 --> 00:47:15.820 the kind of situation that is going to increase 00:47:15.820 --> 00:47:18.360 and it's going to spread into other places because 00:47:18.360 --> 00:47:23.119 there is no way under current tax policy, under 00:47:23.119 --> 00:47:26.219 current funding levels from the state that we're 00:47:26.219 --> 00:47:28.940 going to be able to adjudicate all of these cases. 00:47:29.099 --> 00:47:33.659 This will happen. So what's the answer? I mean, 00:47:33.679 --> 00:47:36.440 how do we go? Where do we go from here? What's 00:47:36.440 --> 00:47:39.260 WASAC strategy? You know, what are we talking 00:47:39.260 --> 00:47:42.480 to folks about? How do we solve this problem 00:47:42.480 --> 00:47:44.860 before it gets out of hand? There's a couple 00:47:44.860 --> 00:47:49.159 of ways you could. So the first is more state 00:47:49.159 --> 00:47:51.900 funding. You know, we've been asking the legislature 00:47:51.900 --> 00:47:54.920 to share this burden with us. You know, we're 00:47:54.920 --> 00:47:58.000 not asking that our last bill did not ask for 00:47:58.000 --> 00:48:01.260 the moon. Haven't we been asking, though, for. 00:48:01.980 --> 00:48:05.440 decades now. What makes us think that what makes 00:48:05.440 --> 00:48:07.380 you think that the legislature is going to start 00:48:07.380 --> 00:48:11.400 listening now? You know, it's a good question. 00:48:11.519 --> 00:48:15.340 They could still ignore us. But the I think reality 00:48:15.340 --> 00:48:18.519 kind of sets in with this decision. You know, 00:48:18.539 --> 00:48:20.320 I don't agree with it. I think it was the wrong 00:48:20.320 --> 00:48:23.619 approach to solving the problem. But either way, 00:48:23.619 --> 00:48:26.159 it's it's happening now. And we can tell that 00:48:26.159 --> 00:48:29.460 story about what what this is going to do to, 00:48:29.500 --> 00:48:31.960 you know, not just the county budgets. but to 00:48:31.960 --> 00:48:34.320 public safety in general. You know, remember 00:48:34.320 --> 00:48:36.760 the last few sessions have been dominated by 00:48:36.760 --> 00:48:39.559 talk about public safety. Started with some, 00:48:39.559 --> 00:48:42.119 you know, talk about reforms to our law enforcement 00:48:42.119 --> 00:48:46.579 system. But when we had that spike in crime, 00:48:46.760 --> 00:48:49.579 people started telling legislators they want 00:48:49.579 --> 00:48:53.599 to see crime and disorder to be reduced. And 00:48:53.599 --> 00:48:56.239 so the legislature is going to have to reprioritize. 00:48:56.519 --> 00:48:59.929 And, you know, again. What we asked for last 00:48:59.929 --> 00:49:03.090 session wasn't crazy. Every once in a while, 00:49:03.130 --> 00:49:05.269 I'll talk to a member that says, well, you guys 00:49:05.269 --> 00:49:07.550 were asking for so much. What I was asking you 00:49:07.550 --> 00:49:10.070 for was what two -thirds of states already do. 00:49:11.070 --> 00:49:14.050 Two -thirds of all states provide at least half 00:49:14.050 --> 00:49:17.349 the funding. Half of all states provide 100 % 00:49:17.349 --> 00:49:20.010 of the funding. We really are in the minority. 00:49:20.010 --> 00:49:24.090 When you say unique, we're way on the other end 00:49:24.090 --> 00:49:27.309 of the spectrum compared to other states. Our 00:49:27.309 --> 00:49:31.409 system is so unusual that both of our bordering 00:49:31.409 --> 00:49:35.010 states in Oregon and Idaho, recently the state 00:49:35.010 --> 00:49:38.710 took over the system. We actually asked that 00:49:38.710 --> 00:49:41.650 at one point, you know, just before we filed 00:49:41.650 --> 00:49:45.210 the suit. Remember the, we actually had the bill 00:49:45.210 --> 00:49:47.769 that said. I do remember that. Fine, you do it. 00:49:47.929 --> 00:49:51.050 Right. I remember that. People looked at us like 00:49:51.050 --> 00:49:54.239 horns grew out of our head. Now you have, you 00:49:54.239 --> 00:49:57.760 know, Idaho system seems to actually be working 00:49:57.760 --> 00:49:59.820 well. There was some hiccups, you know, things 00:49:59.820 --> 00:50:02.460 that I probably would do differently having watched 00:50:02.460 --> 00:50:05.360 them take over the system. But, you know, I heard 00:50:05.360 --> 00:50:07.320 recently from their director that's basically 00:50:07.320 --> 00:50:08.980 like, actually, it works pretty great because 00:50:08.980 --> 00:50:11.900 we can kind of balance and manage cases loads 00:50:11.900 --> 00:50:15.599 a little easier statewide because, you know, 00:50:15.619 --> 00:50:18.079 crime's not spiking in every place all at once. 00:50:18.139 --> 00:50:21.320 And so we can, you know, have people specialize 00:50:21.320 --> 00:50:24.260 in different. So that's another thing we've asked 00:50:24.260 --> 00:50:27.119 the legislature for is there was a there was 00:50:27.119 --> 00:50:29.820 a case in Grace Harbor where they struggled to 00:50:29.820 --> 00:50:32.300 find somebody to take on a juvenile case because 00:50:32.300 --> 00:50:37.840 that takes some special expertise. And they finally 00:50:37.840 --> 00:50:39.699 had somebody do it. And the Supreme Court ruled 00:50:39.699 --> 00:50:44.059 that they had ineffective counsel in that case. 00:50:44.179 --> 00:50:46.159 Well, OK, well, why don't you take over those 00:50:46.159 --> 00:50:49.139 specialty cases that you provide, you know, in 00:50:49.139 --> 00:50:54.460 juvenile cases? Maybe take over all of the competency 00:50:54.460 --> 00:50:57.940 evaluations as well, since the competency system 00:50:57.940 --> 00:51:00.420 is really your burden in the first place. So 00:51:00.420 --> 00:51:02.739 there's lots of different things that the legislature 00:51:02.739 --> 00:51:06.880 could do. Well, I think we come back to them 00:51:06.880 --> 00:51:13.079 with is is really three different requests. One, 00:51:13.260 --> 00:51:16.260 we need you to ensure that the system is fully 00:51:16.260 --> 00:51:20.179 funded and, you know, we can talk with our members 00:51:20.179 --> 00:51:25.360 and. with legislators about the best way to make 00:51:25.360 --> 00:51:28.360 that happen. But either way, we're going to have 00:51:28.360 --> 00:51:31.239 to make sure that that happens. The Supreme Court's 00:51:31.239 --> 00:51:35.219 given us 10 years to implement this. So we're 00:51:35.219 --> 00:51:36.980 going to have to figure out how to make that 00:51:36.980 --> 00:51:39.280 timeline work. The second is we don't have the 00:51:39.280 --> 00:51:41.820 workforce to do this now. One of our counties 00:51:41.820 --> 00:51:44.619 was saying that the number of attorneys they 00:51:44.619 --> 00:51:47.380 would have to hire exceeds the total members 00:51:47.380 --> 00:51:51.559 of the bar in their county. A whole bunch of 00:51:51.559 --> 00:51:53.960 people, in order to make this work, would have 00:51:53.960 --> 00:51:57.579 to decide to leave their position in corporate 00:51:57.579 --> 00:52:01.139 law or environmental law or whatever else. Whatever 00:52:01.139 --> 00:52:03.659 private practice or public practice that they're 00:52:03.659 --> 00:52:06.320 in, focus only on this and even that wouldn't 00:52:06.320 --> 00:52:10.960 be enough. Yeah. That's a shocking data point. 00:52:11.179 --> 00:52:14.699 Yeah. It also tells you kind of how extreme this 00:52:14.699 --> 00:52:18.639 decision is. Well, for any young people that 00:52:18.639 --> 00:52:20.219 are listening right now that might have an interest 00:52:20.219 --> 00:52:22.900 in the law, there's going to be a huge need for 00:52:22.900 --> 00:52:25.800 public defenders in Washington state. So if you 00:52:25.800 --> 00:52:29.320 can get your law degree, you're definitely going 00:52:29.320 --> 00:52:31.440 to find a job here in Washington. If that's the 00:52:31.440 --> 00:52:33.980 coursework that you're in or if that's the practice 00:52:33.980 --> 00:52:35.780 work that you're interested in pursuing, that's 00:52:35.780 --> 00:52:39.340 for sure. So and that's, you know, why we're 00:52:39.340 --> 00:52:41.219 going to ask them to tackle the workforce issue, 00:52:41.320 --> 00:52:42.880 you know, workforce development, higher education. 00:52:43.059 --> 00:52:45.619 That's traditionally a one of the things that 00:52:45.619 --> 00:52:48.440 the state does. If this is, in fact, how many 00:52:48.440 --> 00:52:50.840 attorneys we're going to need to produce, they're 00:52:50.840 --> 00:52:53.820 going to have to build more law schools. We probably 00:52:53.820 --> 00:52:56.699 need some geographic diversity, too, because, 00:52:56.699 --> 00:52:59.159 you know, a lot of counties rely on third -year 00:52:59.159 --> 00:53:01.500 law students to provide, you know, internship 00:53:01.500 --> 00:53:05.199 work and also get connected to their workforce, 00:53:05.420 --> 00:53:08.659 you know. It all can't just happen in the metropolitan 00:53:08.659 --> 00:53:10.519 areas because you need them in the rural areas, 00:53:10.619 --> 00:53:13.559 too. And we're going to need public ones because 00:53:13.559 --> 00:53:18.719 the amount of debt that is allowed under the 00:53:18.719 --> 00:53:20.940 new student loan rules that were just adopted 00:53:20.940 --> 00:53:24.019 by the federal government, that that will be 00:53:24.019 --> 00:53:27.639 capped. And going to a private college not only 00:53:27.639 --> 00:53:29.820 will be cost prohibitive for someone that wants 00:53:29.820 --> 00:53:32.500 to go into public law, but they may not be able 00:53:32.500 --> 00:53:33.880 to afford it in the first place because they 00:53:33.880 --> 00:53:35.980 can't take on enough loans. Well, there's a lot 00:53:35.980 --> 00:53:39.340 of pieces at play here, Derek. It's a very interesting. 00:53:40.400 --> 00:53:42.840 I hate to use that word, but it is a very interesting 00:53:42.840 --> 00:53:45.920 subject matter with a whole lot of complications 00:53:45.920 --> 00:53:50.639 and implications, not just today and not just 00:53:50.639 --> 00:53:54.659 in the future. But, you know, I don't know what's 00:53:54.659 --> 00:53:57.099 beyond the future. But if you think about, you 00:53:57.099 --> 00:53:59.780 know, maybe long term down the road, it's really 00:53:59.780 --> 00:54:01.780 hard to see how this is going to play out without 00:54:01.780 --> 00:54:05.519 some major changes in the system. And I know 00:54:05.519 --> 00:54:08.320 we've been advocating for those for years. We 00:54:08.320 --> 00:54:11.579 haven't made much progress in that regard. If 00:54:11.579 --> 00:54:15.599 this doesn't change that, if it doesn't somehow 00:54:15.599 --> 00:54:22.159 spur action on behalf of policymakers, I guess 00:54:22.159 --> 00:54:23.559 we're just going to have to wait for a major 00:54:23.559 --> 00:54:25.320 crash in the system before it actually will. 00:54:27.659 --> 00:54:31.059 It's hard for me to think that way, and it's 00:54:31.059 --> 00:54:37.750 kind of a sad way to approach it. humans and 00:54:37.750 --> 00:54:40.670 as a society oftentimes it really does kind of 00:54:40.670 --> 00:54:44.889 take that um sort of major catastrophic event 00:54:44.889 --> 00:54:48.489 before people really stand up and pay attention 00:54:48.489 --> 00:54:50.170 i hope that's not the case in this particular 00:54:50.170 --> 00:54:54.110 issue i hope that you know we're a lot more successful 00:54:54.110 --> 00:54:56.170 moving forward and i hope that our strategy works 00:54:56.170 --> 00:55:00.250 yeah absolutely it's we're all gonna it's an 00:55:00.250 --> 00:55:02.449 all hands on deck kind of problem you know this 00:55:02.449 --> 00:55:06.170 is too big uh to for us to not make just absolute 00:55:06.170 --> 00:55:09.170 maximum effort to get it solved. And, you know, 00:55:09.190 --> 00:55:11.849 my message to our friends in the legislature 00:55:11.849 --> 00:55:15.869 is pretty simple. Is it best timing to have a 00:55:15.869 --> 00:55:20.989 massive new cost dropped in your lap? No. This 00:55:20.989 --> 00:55:24.130 is what you signed up for, though. It's unfortunate, 00:55:24.309 --> 00:55:28.070 but it's your responsibility. It's the same thing 00:55:28.070 --> 00:55:32.349 I told, you know, folks during COVID. Yes, this 00:55:32.349 --> 00:55:35.190 is not great, but... It's your responsibility 00:55:35.190 --> 00:55:37.769 to fix it. And so we're just going to have to 00:55:37.769 --> 00:55:40.849 take it head on. And politically, it's not a 00:55:40.849 --> 00:55:42.989 superstar issue, right? I mean, no one wants 00:55:42.989 --> 00:55:44.969 to be seen as the champion for public defense 00:55:44.969 --> 00:55:49.210 in Washington state as a legislator. I totally 00:55:49.210 --> 00:55:52.650 get that. But it's just it's kind of the it's 00:55:52.650 --> 00:55:55.409 the eating your vegetables part of nutrition. 00:55:55.650 --> 00:55:57.829 You know, it's not the steak. It's not the sizzle. 00:55:58.409 --> 00:56:00.909 It's kind of the green mushy part that's necessary 00:56:00.909 --> 00:56:04.699 for. you know a healthy overall coordinated system 00:56:04.699 --> 00:56:07.599 and that's something that we all have to do so 00:56:07.599 --> 00:56:10.860 you know i i hope the legislators are willing 00:56:10.860 --> 00:56:15.920 to should i say eat their greens you know on 00:56:15.920 --> 00:56:19.880 this particular one um and um i know we'll be 00:56:19.880 --> 00:56:22.699 working hard on it they'll we'll certainly keep 00:56:22.699 --> 00:56:24.940 our members updated thanks for coming on the 00:56:24.940 --> 00:56:27.820 podcast today derek uh and explaining this complicated 00:56:27.820 --> 00:56:31.380 issue To all of us, I'm sure that folks are going 00:56:31.380 --> 00:56:33.340 to have a lot of questions. I assume members 00:56:33.340 --> 00:56:35.460 can reach out to you directly if they want to 00:56:35.460 --> 00:56:38.139 know more. Of course, yeah. Always feel free 00:56:38.139 --> 00:56:42.039 to reach out to me directly. And also, just be 00:56:42.039 --> 00:56:44.800 talking to your own legislators. They listen 00:56:44.800 --> 00:56:49.420 to you all, and we want them to be educated on 00:56:49.420 --> 00:56:52.500 the issue and how this will impact not only your 00:56:52.500 --> 00:56:55.860 county budgets, but also impact public safety 00:56:55.860 --> 00:56:58.460 in their districts. Yeah, that's good advice. 00:56:59.019 --> 00:57:00.840 All right. Well, thanks again for being on the 00:57:00.840 --> 00:57:06.840 podcast. We'll see you soon, okay? Yeah. Thanks 00:57:06.840 --> 00:57:09.119 for tuning in to County Connection. Stay in the 00:57:09.119 --> 00:57:11.039 loop by subscribing to us through your preferred 00:57:11.039 --> 00:57:13.340 podcasting app and following us on LinkedIn, 00:57:13.500 --> 00:57:16.179 Facebook, and Instagram. 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