WEBVTT

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All right. I got to figure out how to make that

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list. There's lists you want to be on and there's

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lists that you don't want to be on. Welcome to

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County Connection. the official podcast of the

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Washington State Association of Counties, where

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we dive into the legislative issues shaping the

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future of our communities. From budgets to public

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safety, infrastructure to elections, we'll break

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down what's happening in Olympia and how it impacts

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counties from across the Evergreen State. Stay

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informed, stay engaged, and join us as we amplify

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the voice of Washington's 39 counties. All right,

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welcome to The County Connection, the official

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podcast of the Washington State Association of

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Counties. I'm Paul Jewell, your host and government

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relations director for the Washington State Association

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of Counties, and I'm here today with a special

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guest in the studio, someone we haven't talked

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to before, Jason Spadaro with the Washington

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Forest Protection Association. Jason, you're

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the executive director over there in your office.

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Actually, if we get on the roof of this building,

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I'll bet I can see your office. I don't think

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I could throw a rock that far, but I'll bet I

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can see your office. Bet you could. Yeah, we're

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down in the port district of Olympia. Yeah, just

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a couple blocks away. By the farmer's market.

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Yeah. Five or six blocks from here. So you and

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I have worked together actually on quite a few

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things. Even before you were the executive director

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over at WFPA, you and I met originally, boy,

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was it 2019 or 2018 at Skamania Lodge. With that

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four -day odyssey, do you remember that, that

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we did talking about the adaptive management

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program with DNR and a whole bunch of other folks?

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I think that was the very first time I ever met

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you, if I'm not mistaken. I think that's right.

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Let's back up just a little bit. I barely introduced

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you. barely got to tell people who you are. So

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once again, you're Jason Spadaro. You're the

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executive director of the Washington Forest Protection

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Association. You're another association right

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here in Olympia. Quickly, why don't you just

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tell us what WFPA does? What is the Washington

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Forest Protection Association? Just so that folks

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who are listening who may not be familiar with

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WFPA have an idea of, you know, why you're here.

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Yeah. Well, the name implies Washington Forest

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Protection Association. It was originally founded

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as a firefighting cooperative to protect forest

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land in Washington state from wildfire. Oh, I

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didn't know that. That's interesting. Yeah. It

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was private companies that, you know, we're over

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an over 100 year organization. So in the 1920s

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and 30s, there was a need for protection of forest

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land from wildfire, ravages of wildfire. Still

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is today. Still is today. A group of private

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companies formed a cooperative, in essence, to

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provide funding and support for each other on

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wildfire protection. As time goes on, the simple

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story is that as time goes on, the state takes

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responsibility for wildfire suppression. Mostly

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through DNR, right? Through DNR. They realize

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that it is a critical need and it doesn't work

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so well that those that have the means to form

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a cooperative and protect their lands from wildfire

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and those that don't. So you could have potential

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for clear winners and losers. The state takes

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it on as a public responsibility. But there's

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still private firefighting companies out there,

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right? There are, yeah. Can you hire them to

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come and protect your property? Or do they mostly

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contract with, like the DNR and other... They

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mostly contract with DNR, but we as landowners

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can and do hire independent contractors to do...

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wildfire suppression work or protect our property

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lines our boundaries so that you know in some

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cases maybe maybe this is maybe more prevalent

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with U .S. Forest Service firefighting in the

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past they may have a less active approach and

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more more hands off and let wildfire burn and

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that if it's affecting private property If it's

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on our property, we have the ability to go in

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and take direct action to protect our private

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resources, our private land. Yeah, the fire doesn't

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necessarily just stop because it hits a private

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property. No, it doesn't. It doesn't go, oh,

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wait a minute, that's not Forest Service land

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anymore. Let's make a left turn here. But back

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to your point about private contractors, insurers

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now are even hiring. to provide protection for

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assets that an insurance company is providing

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insurance for. Sure. Preventing the loss of those

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assets could be cheaper in some cases than actually

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paying out for that loss. Correct, correct, yeah.

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But that is the evolution of WFPA was wildfire

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protection. But you're not doing that now, right?

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No. It's a completely different organization.

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State has taken that over, took that over in

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the 1950s. We reformed, WFPA reformed itself

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to be... the association representing the interest

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of private forest landowners in the state of

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Washington, in the legislature, in public policy

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conversation, with a communications program,

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advocacy needs and whatnot. So we currently we

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have about four million acres of private forest

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lands that constitute the membership of WFPA,

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largest landowner. Member of WFPA is Weyerhaeuser

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Corporation or the Weyerhaeuser Company. We've

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got Sierra Pacific and Green Diamond and Manulife

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and Hampton Lumber. So we have corporations that

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are members. We have family -owned companies

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that are members. We have institutional timberland

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managers. And then we have all the way down to

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small individual landowners that might have a

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couple hundred acres of forest land. the the

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very small forest land owners, primarily There's

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an association called Washington Farm Forestry

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Association that represents their interests.

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Okay. So what would you consider small? Because

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obviously Weyerhaeuser on a scale is huge, and

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there's no one bigger than Weyerhaeuser, right?

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Yeah. But you mentioned others like Hampton.

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Companies like Port Blakely. Port Blakely, yeah,

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there you go. And Wagen on the east side. So

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we've got the whole range from very large to

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midsize to small. for the forest practices purposes

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is a small landowner is less than 500 acres.

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Okay. So we do have some landowners that are

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categorized as small, that are less than 500

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as members of WFPA. So there's some overlap in

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our association at WFPA and Washington farm forestry

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on that small end, but the Washington farm forestry,

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we work very closely with them because they're

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small forest landowners like we are. or forest

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landowners in general, like we are, and we have

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common interests, their membership is quite often

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they're landowners that have a mixture of forest

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land and agriculture or some other use. So forestry

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might not be their primary purpose for owning

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the land. And WFPA, like I said, 4 million acres.

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And we have a staff. I'm the executive director.

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We have a communications program. We have a forest

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policy program. We have a tax and economics program.

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And we have a government relations program. Okay.

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Okay. Well, you know, at the county's association,

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we have a lot of investment in. forestry as well

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from a policy point of view and counties have

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a lot of interest in what happens on their forest

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lands most of the forest lands that i imagine

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that are your members are not in cities, right?

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They're going to be in the unincorporated lands

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of counties under county jurisdiction. But then,

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of course, you know, the activity that occurs

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on those lands has a direct economic impact on

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the county's economy overall. And counties also

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get revenue from forest harvest, which is kind

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of a unique relationship for resource lands in

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Washington state. For instance, we don't get

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revenue from agricultural harvest necessarily

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like we do from forest harvest. And that's kind

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of an interesting story that's evolved over time.

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But we also have a huge interest in wildfire

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prevention because, as I mentioned before, you

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know, maybe the wildfire in the opposite case

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actually starts on private land and then goes

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over into public land. Wildfire doesn't necessarily

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respect. property boundaries, right? And so we're

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all kind of in it together where wildfire protection

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and prevention is concerned. I know there's a

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lot going on kind of in the forestry arena right

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now, and I want to talk about that a little bit.

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But before we get into that, how did you get

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into forestry? Was this a career choice? Did

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you start out kind of as a forester or maybe

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a logger, or was it something your family did?

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And how did you get connected with WFPA? Yeah.

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Good. It's a long story, but I'll try and be

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brief. I did, uh, grew up in Auburn, Washington

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and a friend of mine, his father was a contract

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logger. So I would, you know, do things on the

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landing or help out a little bit. I always had

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an affinity to the natural environment. Okay.

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My, I'll never, I always tell the story of. Never

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forget, my high school aptitude test said I should

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be an accountant. I went to University of Washington

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and took my first accounting course, and I decided

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this wasn't what I wanted to do, counting debits

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and credits and T -charts. So I went to forestry,

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moved over to the forestry college at University

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of Washington, graduated there, became a forester.

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and went to work as an entry -level forester

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for a family -owned company in the Columbia Gorge.

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Okay. And I fast -forward a decade, and I pursued

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an MBA and learned all about accounting and finance.

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All the good stuff. All the good stuff. Everything

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a forester really, really, really wants to learn

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about. And I eventually became president of the

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company that I worked for, a non -family member

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as president of the company. So was this the

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same forestry company that you'd started with?

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It is, yeah. Good for you. That's an unusual

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tale in today's world. It is. I worked for 31

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years for SDS Lumber Company based out of Bingen,

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Washington. until I started my own consulting

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business when SDS was sold in 2021. Shout out

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to Bingen right there along the Columbia River

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Gorge. In Klickitat County. In Klickitat County.

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So for those of us who know our geography in

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Washington State, shout out to the folks in Bingen.

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Yeah. And so I became president of the company.

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I was involved with WFPA as a member. SDS had

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timberlands and mill operations. In the Columbia

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Gorge, was on the board of WFPA, became the president

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of the board of WFPA. And then the timing coincided

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with the owner's sale of SDS. I started a consulting

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business called Noble Forest Company. And Mark

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Domet, our executive director at WFPA, passed

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suddenly of a heart attack. Yeah, that was just

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a few years ago. That was... About four years

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ago this time, if I'm not mistaken, around in

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July. Yeah, I know a lot of our members will

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remember Mark. He was a former senator as well.

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He was. He's been around for a long time and

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certainly a longtime director of the WFPA. And

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a great friend. And he pulled me into the board

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of WFPA when we joined as a member and pulled

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me into the executive committee and helped. paved

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the way for me to become president of the association

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board of directors. But I stepped in on an interim

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basis when Mark passed, uh, just because of my

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career path. And, um, so here I am four years

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later, still as the executive director of the

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association. Now you're stuck. Well, I'll say

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this, uh, forestry is something that I'm really

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passionate about. The contributions and this

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industry is something I'm very passionate about.

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We at SDS, we were kind of the heartbeat of the

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community and not the only part. Agriculture,

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natural resources were really the foundation

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of the communities that we live in. And so I'm

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very passionate about both industries. I'm an

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agricultural landowner and a forest landowner

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myself personally. Those resource -based industries,

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though, they drive many of those communities,

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right? I mean, people live and they work in those

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industries. They live in that environment. They

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work in that environment. And it really, it's

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not just from an economic perspective or point

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of view. It's also from a very, very much a cultural

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point of view. Correct. And a way of life. It's

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a way of life. Yeah. So I'm very passionate about

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protecting our forest industry and protecting

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our rural communities and those natural resource

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industries that are part of the fabric of those

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rural communities. So that's why I do this. As

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we talked earlier, you know, it can be frustrating

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at times being in Olympia and working with state

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agencies or elected officials that some understand

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the importance of that cultural importance of

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natural resource industries to rural Washington.

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Others don't. And we have to bridge that divide

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and work together to solve these issues. Well,

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that's a familiar challenge that we have as counties

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as well as I'm sure you can imagine. I kind of

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mentioned a few things that we had common interest

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in, but where forest land and resource land management

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is concerned, I mean, counties are kind of unique,

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I always think, because we have a really diverse

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array of... We're in this kind of land use regulatory

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seat as counties, right? So we have to determine

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what you can do with your property, what you

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can't do with your property, what permits might

00:14:56.120 --> 00:14:58.720
be required, et cetera. But we're not necessarily

00:14:58.720 --> 00:15:02.740
in the regulatory business around harvest or

00:15:02.740 --> 00:15:04.639
other forest practices, right? That's a different

00:15:04.639 --> 00:15:07.200
agency. But we certainly have an interest in

00:15:07.200 --> 00:15:10.360
how that occurs because we have a revenue interest

00:15:10.360 --> 00:15:14.059
in that. But we have a cultural interest in it.

00:15:14.120 --> 00:15:17.720
We have a general economic interest in it beyond

00:15:17.720 --> 00:15:21.899
direct revenue. We have a recreational interest

00:15:21.899 --> 00:15:25.100
in it, right? A natural resource and overall

00:15:25.100 --> 00:15:28.019
environmental interest in it, much more so than

00:15:28.019 --> 00:15:30.240
a lot of the other folks who play in this game.

00:15:32.159 --> 00:15:34.700
We find ourselves working with you guys quite

00:15:34.700 --> 00:15:38.240
a bit. And I was just wondering from your kind

00:15:38.240 --> 00:15:43.240
of perspective, why do you think that is? And

00:15:43.240 --> 00:15:46.019
where do you think our interests really align

00:15:46.019 --> 00:15:49.960
from the county side versus the WFPA side? And

00:15:49.960 --> 00:15:53.019
what I got from you and your membership is you're

00:15:53.019 --> 00:15:55.679
really kind of representing the timber industry

00:15:55.679 --> 00:15:58.600
folks, the landowners, right? The people who

00:15:58.600 --> 00:16:04.379
have a real... have a lot of investment, I guess,

00:16:04.419 --> 00:16:07.700
in the land itself and the resources that exist

00:16:07.700 --> 00:16:10.399
on that land. And in many cases, not in every

00:16:10.399 --> 00:16:12.860
case, because I know that there's mineral resources

00:16:12.860 --> 00:16:14.940
and other things, right, and there's agricultural

00:16:14.940 --> 00:16:17.659
activities beyond timber. But in many cases,

00:16:17.679 --> 00:16:20.100
a lot of the value, if not the majority of the

00:16:20.100 --> 00:16:24.600
value, is in that timber itself. Even though

00:16:24.600 --> 00:16:26.080
you and I work together a lot, we don't always

00:16:26.080 --> 00:16:28.539
see eye to eye on everything, right? We're not

00:16:28.539 --> 00:16:31.960
always taking the same position and perfectly

00:16:31.960 --> 00:16:34.820
aligned on different things, which is understandable

00:16:34.820 --> 00:16:38.340
because we have... Lots of different members.

00:16:38.600 --> 00:16:41.600
Yeah, you have a diverse range of counties that

00:16:41.600 --> 00:16:44.279
you represent. But you do too, right? You have

00:16:44.279 --> 00:16:46.500
a diverse range of landowners. And I'm sure we

00:16:46.500 --> 00:16:48.840
both struggle to kind of manage that side of

00:16:48.840 --> 00:16:53.419
it a little bit. But maybe where do you see WFPA's

00:16:53.419 --> 00:16:56.500
interests aligned with the county's interests?

00:16:57.139 --> 00:17:03.840
And why do you think that is? My boss, when I

00:17:03.840 --> 00:17:06.420
first started in this industry as a forester,

00:17:06.539 --> 00:17:09.500
he was a former state legislator. He was in the

00:17:09.500 --> 00:17:12.880
legislature in the 1970s. Who was that? Bob Chamberlain

00:17:12.880 --> 00:17:16.480
was his name from White Salmon, Washington. And

00:17:16.480 --> 00:17:20.180
he always described to me that the county commissioners

00:17:20.180 --> 00:17:26.799
and county government is the hardest job because

00:17:26.799 --> 00:17:31.769
you're so close to the constituents. And you're

00:17:31.769 --> 00:17:35.410
part of the constituency. You're part of the

00:17:35.410 --> 00:17:38.230
community as a county commissioner or a city

00:17:38.230 --> 00:17:41.930
council member or whatnot. Yeah. And so, you

00:17:41.930 --> 00:17:46.910
know, where we as forest landowners are part

00:17:46.910 --> 00:17:50.609
of that community, so are the counties. And we

00:17:50.609 --> 00:17:55.269
all know that forests can provide multiple benefits.

00:17:57.000 --> 00:17:59.799
Join us in that, that they can provide economic

00:17:59.799 --> 00:18:02.359
activity. Sure. They can provide recreation.

00:18:02.380 --> 00:18:05.700
They can provide conservation, wildlife habitat,

00:18:05.819 --> 00:18:09.059
etc. Clean water. Clean air. And maintaining

00:18:09.059 --> 00:18:13.160
the multiple uses of forest land and the benefits

00:18:13.160 --> 00:18:16.839
that they provide, a county elected official.

00:18:17.640 --> 00:18:20.799
feels that they feel the economic impacts in

00:18:20.799 --> 00:18:22.819
their community they feel it from the constituents

00:18:22.819 --> 00:18:25.460
they live it themselves they're part of the community

00:18:25.460 --> 00:18:28.619
they feel the pain when a mill closes yeah they

00:18:28.619 --> 00:18:31.819
feel the pain when regulations come that that

00:18:31.819 --> 00:18:35.079
restrict act you know economic activity of private

00:18:35.079 --> 00:18:38.220
forest land they also see the opportunities of

00:18:38.220 --> 00:18:42.859
recreation and tourism right and and new opportunities

00:18:42.859 --> 00:18:45.799
for forest but those are you know we've all lived

00:18:45.799 --> 00:18:50.140
this I lived in Skamania County. Skamania County

00:18:50.140 --> 00:18:53.140
is very near and dear to my heart, as is Klickatek

00:18:53.140 --> 00:18:58.759
County. You know, when the Columbia Gorge National

00:18:58.759 --> 00:19:02.859
Scenic Area Act was created and a large swath

00:19:02.859 --> 00:19:07.619
of state, federal, and private lands were restricted

00:19:07.619 --> 00:19:10.799
for scenic considerations, there was a promise

00:19:10.799 --> 00:19:15.240
in that act as an example of... dual purposes,

00:19:15.319 --> 00:19:19.400
economic development and conservation. And what

00:19:19.400 --> 00:19:22.759
we see is a lot of accomplishments on the conservation

00:19:22.759 --> 00:19:27.180
side, not as much on the economic. I would argue

00:19:27.180 --> 00:19:33.539
not even not as much, but it's by multiple factor

00:19:33.539 --> 00:19:37.920
less on the economic development side. We just

00:19:37.920 --> 00:19:40.980
don't, the promises of tourism jobs replacing

00:19:41.960 --> 00:19:45.900
your core industries or the promise of service

00:19:45.900 --> 00:19:51.480
jobs, providing family wage jobs to replace mill

00:19:51.480 --> 00:19:54.880
jobs that are lost. It never really materializes

00:19:54.880 --> 00:19:57.079
like it's promised. No, I think that's right.

00:19:57.240 --> 00:19:59.599
And we feel that. We all feel that being part

00:19:59.599 --> 00:20:01.700
of the community, including counties. I mean,

00:20:01.700 --> 00:20:04.549
there are some rare cases where... You know,

00:20:04.549 --> 00:20:07.130
some communities, distinct communities in the

00:20:07.130 --> 00:20:08.710
right area at the right time have done a really

00:20:08.710 --> 00:20:13.250
good job at redefining themselves, right? But

00:20:13.250 --> 00:20:14.970
it's a matter of, you know, it's a matter of

00:20:14.970 --> 00:20:18.250
location, of timing, and of, in my opinion, some

00:20:18.250 --> 00:20:20.549
unique circumstances that they were able to take

00:20:20.549 --> 00:20:23.789
advantage of. And others think that that opportunity

00:20:23.789 --> 00:20:26.329
is available to them as well, but it's such a

00:20:26.329 --> 00:20:29.390
great challenge. And to take out, you know, a

00:20:29.390 --> 00:20:31.829
resource -based industry or significantly alter

00:20:31.829 --> 00:20:34.259
it. in a way and think you're going to recover

00:20:34.259 --> 00:20:38.759
rapidly, uh, I think has been a pretty big mistake

00:20:38.759 --> 00:20:41.759
in a lot of places in Washington state, especially

00:20:41.759 --> 00:20:45.680
in rural environments. So often we, we see these

00:20:45.680 --> 00:20:49.380
either or, you know, decisions or things characterized.

00:20:49.420 --> 00:20:53.059
And it's not, it's not that resource management

00:20:53.059 --> 00:20:57.039
is contrary to tourism and recreation. We can

00:20:57.039 --> 00:21:00.319
have both. We have to balance as a state. We

00:21:00.319 --> 00:21:03.509
have to balance those. the interest we can with

00:21:03.509 --> 00:21:06.990
forest land have recreation and tourism and high

00:21:06.990 --> 00:21:09.470
quality environment but we can also have the

00:21:09.470 --> 00:21:12.609
jobs and the economy and the productive lands

00:21:12.609 --> 00:21:15.230
and the building materials that we need in the

00:21:15.230 --> 00:21:17.309
state of washington so this is either or yeah

00:21:17.309 --> 00:21:19.710
so this is an interesting line of discussion

00:21:19.710 --> 00:21:22.529
not one that i had thought we were going to go

00:21:22.529 --> 00:21:26.490
down, but I'm just going to run with it. I think

00:21:26.490 --> 00:21:28.329
it's an interesting point that you just made.

00:21:28.829 --> 00:21:33.109
And I think it's a point that a lot of folks,

00:21:33.329 --> 00:21:35.670
and I don't mean this in an offensive way at

00:21:35.670 --> 00:21:38.309
all, but people who are more biased towards,

00:21:38.630 --> 00:21:43.869
say, economic activity and revenue, it's an argument

00:21:43.869 --> 00:21:46.109
that they want to make. And I think they want

00:21:46.109 --> 00:21:50.839
it to be true. But in some cases, And I'm just

00:21:50.839 --> 00:21:52.400
going to throw this out for your opinion, Jason.

00:21:52.420 --> 00:21:55.680
In some cases, aren't there just tradeoffs that

00:21:55.680 --> 00:21:59.980
we're going to have to face and make when we're

00:21:59.980 --> 00:22:03.619
talking about environmental benefits versus commerce,

00:22:03.920 --> 00:22:06.119
right? When we're talking about conservation

00:22:06.119 --> 00:22:09.839
versus development, when we're talking about,

00:22:09.839 --> 00:22:15.480
you know, greater societal benefits versus private

00:22:15.480 --> 00:22:18.599
wealth opportunities. Aren't we just going to

00:22:18.599 --> 00:22:20.619
have to make some choices at some point and say,

00:22:20.660 --> 00:22:23.460
you know, we're not going to do that there. And

00:22:23.460 --> 00:22:25.579
these are the reasons why. And we think that

00:22:25.579 --> 00:22:28.000
these reasons are important. And that's just

00:22:28.000 --> 00:22:30.680
the way it's going to have to be. And I think

00:22:30.680 --> 00:22:32.720
we have made some of those choices in the past.

00:22:33.420 --> 00:22:38.279
Not in a non -controversial way, right? And from

00:22:38.279 --> 00:22:41.140
some people's point of view, not in a non -destructive

00:22:41.140 --> 00:22:44.079
way. Whereas by non -destructive, I mean, you

00:22:44.079 --> 00:22:46.119
know, entire communities have been dismantled.

00:22:46.269 --> 00:22:49.369
You know, their industry is gone. They're young

00:22:49.369 --> 00:22:53.789
people gone. Their ability to be self -sustaining

00:22:53.789 --> 00:22:58.650
gone. Right. But, you know, that's done for different

00:22:58.650 --> 00:23:00.910
reasons, whether it's endangered species preservation

00:23:00.910 --> 00:23:05.650
or environmental benefits or otherwise. Is it

00:23:05.650 --> 00:23:11.119
really possible to change that kind of. you know,

00:23:11.140 --> 00:23:14.579
model in favor of something that is kind of what

00:23:14.579 --> 00:23:16.940
you talk about, more balanced in every single

00:23:16.940 --> 00:23:20.000
instance. Well, you'll hear my perspective, which

00:23:20.000 --> 00:23:25.640
is admittedly a very rural community and resource

00:23:25.640 --> 00:23:29.480
dependent perspective. And that is that we have

00:23:29.480 --> 00:23:34.099
the strictest environmental standards for practicing

00:23:34.099 --> 00:23:36.299
forestry or forest management in the state of

00:23:36.299 --> 00:23:40.279
Washington. We have provided Through the Forest

00:23:40.279 --> 00:23:43.779
and Fish Law and then the HCP, we have removed

00:23:43.779 --> 00:23:47.019
culverts and roads and restored salmon habitat.

00:23:47.400 --> 00:23:51.619
And we have the reforestation requirements we

00:23:51.619 --> 00:23:54.480
have in the state of Washington, the clear -cut

00:23:54.480 --> 00:23:58.539
harvest size limitations, unstable slopes. There's

00:23:58.539 --> 00:24:03.039
a litany of resource protection objectives in

00:24:03.039 --> 00:24:07.140
the forest practices rules. And we have... We're

00:24:07.140 --> 00:24:13.259
doing it sustainably. And we can't do it. We

00:24:13.259 --> 00:24:15.859
can't set aside our forest land, whether it's

00:24:15.859 --> 00:24:18.420
national forest, state land, or private land,

00:24:18.559 --> 00:24:22.200
without having consequences. And so as long as

00:24:22.200 --> 00:24:25.720
we're doing it sustainably and responsibly, we

00:24:25.720 --> 00:24:28.319
have to maintain that balance. We can have both.

00:24:29.259 --> 00:24:33.559
Oftentimes, what we hear from the urban communities

00:24:33.559 --> 00:24:38.759
is they want... They're having their impact on

00:24:38.759 --> 00:24:41.019
the environment. Puget Sound trough, the whole

00:24:41.019 --> 00:24:43.900
Puget Sound trough. You have high density of

00:24:43.900 --> 00:24:47.720
development. You have impacts to salmon habitat,

00:24:48.119 --> 00:24:50.619
wildlife habitat. High density development in,

00:24:50.640 --> 00:24:53.359
ironically, some of the most ecosystem sensitive

00:24:53.359 --> 00:24:58.119
areas in the entire state. And so how do those

00:24:58.119 --> 00:25:02.839
folks view the rural communities? The rural communities

00:25:02.839 --> 00:25:07.700
should be preserved or... or restricted to protect

00:25:07.700 --> 00:25:10.900
the environment where in their backyard, they've

00:25:10.900 --> 00:25:14.099
had a huge footprint and a huge impact. And we,

00:25:14.160 --> 00:25:16.619
we can't do that in the state of Washington.

00:25:16.720 --> 00:25:20.579
If we want to have a successful economy in the

00:25:20.579 --> 00:25:23.460
state of Washington and the food products and

00:25:23.460 --> 00:25:26.420
the timber products that we need to supply to

00:25:26.420 --> 00:25:30.279
the urban areas, we have to have basic industries.

00:25:30.279 --> 00:25:33.700
And when the balance swings too far, which arguably,

00:25:34.279 --> 00:25:38.460
It has swung too far, and people are rethinking,

00:25:38.500 --> 00:25:41.299
how do we manage our national forest lands? How

00:25:41.299 --> 00:25:44.359
do we manage our state lands? Balance swings

00:25:44.359 --> 00:25:47.359
too far, we get out of balance, and we have winners

00:25:47.359 --> 00:25:49.779
and losers. Too often, the rural communities

00:25:49.779 --> 00:25:51.920
are the losers, and the urban communities are

00:25:51.920 --> 00:25:54.700
the winners. This is a fascinating conversation.

00:25:54.940 --> 00:25:56.900
And I mean, you're hitting on stuff that we hit

00:25:56.900 --> 00:25:59.000
on all the time, right? I mean, you know, the

00:25:59.000 --> 00:26:04.140
difference between herbal, herbal. That's why

00:26:04.140 --> 00:26:07.779
we love podcasts to capture it all. The difference

00:26:07.779 --> 00:26:10.420
between urban and rural communities and some

00:26:10.420 --> 00:26:13.049
of the. Some of the friction, right, and tension

00:26:13.049 --> 00:26:15.990
there. And the fact that, you know, ironically

00:26:15.990 --> 00:26:18.430
in Washington State, we have this whole growth

00:26:18.430 --> 00:26:20.950
management regime that, you know, says, okay,

00:26:20.990 --> 00:26:22.390
if you've already developed in a certain area,

00:26:22.490 --> 00:26:24.490
we want you to develop that one more and make

00:26:24.490 --> 00:26:27.470
it more dense. And like I said, in Washington,

00:26:27.549 --> 00:26:30.599
you know. In many cases, in most cases, especially

00:26:30.599 --> 00:26:32.579
in the greater Puget Sound region, those are

00:26:32.579 --> 00:26:36.059
some of the most sensitive ecological areas you

00:26:36.059 --> 00:26:38.819
could imagine, right? But they're already developed,

00:26:38.960 --> 00:26:41.640
so we're just going to develop them more. And

00:26:41.640 --> 00:26:44.539
then, you know, those areas look to the urban

00:26:44.539 --> 00:26:47.180
areas to try to offset, right, to mitigate, to

00:26:47.180 --> 00:26:51.980
create that protection. You, as forest landowners,

00:26:52.119 --> 00:26:54.890
have been looked at in many... kind of in that

00:26:54.890 --> 00:26:58.250
way. And I don't want to get into the urban and

00:26:58.250 --> 00:26:59.490
rural fight because I don't think we're going

00:26:59.490 --> 00:27:02.029
to solve this on our podcast. And it's just a

00:27:02.029 --> 00:27:06.970
real struggle societally that we're all dealing

00:27:06.970 --> 00:27:10.569
with. And I think is one of those discussions

00:27:10.569 --> 00:27:13.710
for the ages that we may never solve. But if

00:27:13.710 --> 00:27:17.470
we do, we'll look back at this and go, wow, great

00:27:17.470 --> 00:27:20.930
on us for solving it. But it is a real challenge.

00:27:20.950 --> 00:27:24.380
And the idea that I love a solution where everybody

00:27:24.380 --> 00:27:26.619
wins, but the idea that, you know, we're always

00:27:26.619 --> 00:27:28.039
going to have a solution where there's never

00:27:28.039 --> 00:27:31.200
a winner. I'm sorry, where there's never a situation

00:27:31.200 --> 00:27:33.180
where you have winners and losers to me is almost

00:27:33.180 --> 00:27:38.180
un... realistic. I just don't think that's possible

00:27:38.180 --> 00:27:40.960
in every case. And as a society, we have to make

00:27:40.960 --> 00:27:42.980
a decision at some point as to what's more valuable

00:27:42.980 --> 00:27:46.319
and what's less valuable to us. And as thought

00:27:46.319 --> 00:27:48.880
leaders and leaders in our groups and communities,

00:27:49.019 --> 00:27:50.619
it's kind of up to us to make those decisions

00:27:50.619 --> 00:27:52.519
or the people that we represent, at least, right?

00:27:52.619 --> 00:27:55.799
And we try to help guide them through that. One

00:27:55.799 --> 00:27:58.680
of the things that are a parallel that I see

00:27:58.680 --> 00:28:04.289
here is, you know, in many ways, A lot of emphasis

00:28:04.289 --> 00:28:07.049
has been put, and you touched on this a little

00:28:07.049 --> 00:28:13.529
bit, on forest lands to mitigate or save or correct

00:28:13.529 --> 00:28:16.769
a lot of the environmental damage that has been

00:28:16.769 --> 00:28:18.970
done in other areas, whether they're urban or

00:28:18.970 --> 00:28:24.200
not. It feels like forest lands are... I don't

00:28:24.200 --> 00:28:27.259
want to say picked on because they're super valuable.

00:28:27.480 --> 00:28:29.539
And I think you'll agree with this. They're super

00:28:29.539 --> 00:28:32.579
valuable from an environmental point of view,

00:28:32.599 --> 00:28:35.819
right? The forests are the lungs of the earth

00:28:35.819 --> 00:28:38.579
in many ways, right? They really do a great job

00:28:38.579 --> 00:28:41.299
of cleaning the air and sequestering carbon and

00:28:41.299 --> 00:28:43.000
storing carbon, whether it's in the trees themselves

00:28:43.000 --> 00:28:46.920
or the soils or the other plants. are part of

00:28:46.920 --> 00:28:48.880
that forest ecosystem. They do a great job of

00:28:48.880 --> 00:28:51.339
cleaning our water and providing water supply

00:28:51.339 --> 00:28:53.960
and water storage, right? They do a great job

00:28:53.960 --> 00:28:57.460
of providing shade and respite and habitat for

00:28:57.460 --> 00:29:00.059
a lot of species that we rely upon for a whole

00:29:00.059 --> 00:29:02.019
host of different reasons. They do a great job

00:29:02.019 --> 00:29:05.920
of providing building materials and other materials

00:29:05.920 --> 00:29:10.859
for fuel and otherwise. But still they're looked

00:29:10.859 --> 00:29:15.619
to in many, many ways. as also this area that

00:29:15.619 --> 00:29:18.700
needs to be really regulated and needs to essentially

00:29:18.700 --> 00:29:21.279
provide all these benefits to offset a lot of

00:29:21.279 --> 00:29:23.839
the damage that's occurring in other areas. And

00:29:23.839 --> 00:29:26.599
I'm wondering why you think that is, number one.

00:29:27.319 --> 00:29:31.500
And then number two, you know, I want to talk

00:29:31.500 --> 00:29:34.960
a little bit about the state riparian. that you

00:29:34.960 --> 00:29:37.839
and I are doing as well and how that might relate.

00:29:38.079 --> 00:29:41.480
But comment on the first piece. And I'd like

00:29:41.480 --> 00:29:43.640
to get your perspective on that because it kind

00:29:43.640 --> 00:29:46.099
of feels like, and I'm going to throw it out

00:29:46.099 --> 00:29:47.740
there. It's controversial, but I'm going to throw

00:29:47.740 --> 00:29:53.259
it out there. I think others, I think our forest

00:29:53.259 --> 00:29:56.500
practices in Washington are probably the most

00:29:56.500 --> 00:29:59.690
stringent anywhere. And correct me if I'm wrong

00:29:59.690 --> 00:30:02.529
on that. Maybe California is more restrictive

00:30:02.529 --> 00:30:05.470
than Washington. But we're certainly world class.

00:30:05.490 --> 00:30:07.210
We're right there. We're world class. Yeah. No

00:30:07.210 --> 00:30:10.529
doubt. So whether we're as restrictive in every

00:30:10.529 --> 00:30:14.890
instance as California or not, we are one of

00:30:14.890 --> 00:30:17.309
the most regulated and probably one of the better

00:30:17.309 --> 00:30:20.990
places from an environmental sustainability point

00:30:20.990 --> 00:30:22.750
of view to grow and harvest timber. And we're

00:30:22.750 --> 00:30:24.849
one of the best locations in the world. to do

00:30:24.849 --> 00:30:29.430
it yes right um so with that in mind why do you

00:30:29.430 --> 00:30:33.529
think the constant emphasis continues to be placed

00:30:33.529 --> 00:30:39.630
on the uplands on forest lands etc um while others

00:30:39.630 --> 00:30:42.210
and i'm going to say it it's controversial are

00:30:42.210 --> 00:30:45.950
basically getting a free pass yeah the simple

00:30:45.950 --> 00:30:51.130
answer is because it's easier and it's it's too

00:30:51.130 --> 00:30:56.490
hard to address the issues in the urban environments

00:30:56.490 --> 00:31:00.170
in the industrial environments in the too hard

00:31:00.170 --> 00:31:03.970
like practically too hard politically both practically

00:31:03.970 --> 00:31:07.109
and politically like you have a large number

00:31:07.109 --> 00:31:10.490
of people that if you now if we as a state said

00:31:10.490 --> 00:31:14.450
you know the puyallup river is an example and

00:31:14.450 --> 00:31:17.329
maybe that's not a good one to use but uh that

00:31:17.329 --> 00:31:21.319
that we need landowners who own property along

00:31:21.319 --> 00:31:26.380
the Puyallup River or whatever to provide riparian

00:31:26.380 --> 00:31:31.680
buffers or minimize the impact of thousands of

00:31:31.680 --> 00:31:35.099
drain fields and nutrient loading into a river.

00:31:35.220 --> 00:31:38.779
The number of people that it's affecting and

00:31:38.779 --> 00:31:42.519
the cost and the difficulty of getting that done

00:31:42.519 --> 00:31:47.599
is significantly harder. It's then looking at

00:31:47.599 --> 00:31:50.359
pointing the finger at somebody else i mean to

00:31:50.359 --> 00:31:55.680
me it's a lot of hypocrisy that to be pointing

00:31:55.680 --> 00:31:58.579
at other land use saying well i'm not part of

00:31:58.579 --> 00:32:02.240
the problem don't inconvenience me with the solution

00:32:02.240 --> 00:32:06.619
let's just go lock up the rural lands from being

00:32:06.619 --> 00:32:10.859
managed or utilized to mitigate my impacts it's

00:32:10.859 --> 00:32:16.160
just easier to do that and the Forest Practices

00:32:16.160 --> 00:32:19.579
Regulatory System is a mechanism. There's a tool

00:32:19.579 --> 00:32:24.059
there to achieve that in the forestry world with

00:32:24.059 --> 00:32:26.700
us having a Forest Practices Act that restricts

00:32:26.700 --> 00:32:33.720
us. Those restrictions is what creates our strict

00:32:33.720 --> 00:32:36.460
environmental standards, forest management, timber

00:32:36.460 --> 00:32:40.140
harvest, road construction. Everything we do

00:32:40.140 --> 00:32:42.720
is done in the most environmentally responsible

00:32:42.720 --> 00:32:46.890
way. So it's a good tool in that regard, but

00:32:46.890 --> 00:32:49.750
it's also a tool that can be used to put more

00:32:49.750 --> 00:32:52.789
burden on us to mitigate for other people's impacts.

00:32:53.470 --> 00:32:58.049
And you're absolutely right, is that we as landowners

00:32:58.049 --> 00:33:01.829
do feel that way, that we're providing a lot

00:33:01.829 --> 00:33:07.809
of benefit to society in water quality improvements.

00:33:09.400 --> 00:33:12.460
Carbon sequestration. We're providing benefits

00:33:12.460 --> 00:33:16.140
to society that are not recognized at all. So

00:33:16.140 --> 00:33:18.619
let's touch on that a little bit. I'm going to

00:33:18.619 --> 00:33:20.799
hit every controversial subject we possibly can

00:33:20.799 --> 00:33:26.779
today. Because I hear that from the timber industry

00:33:26.779 --> 00:33:31.220
quite a bit. And I think there's definitely arguments

00:33:31.220 --> 00:33:36.160
to be made there. And others say the same thing.

00:33:36.559 --> 00:33:38.640
We'll hear from the agricultural industry oftentimes

00:33:38.640 --> 00:33:41.759
about the societal benefits that they provide

00:33:41.759 --> 00:33:44.460
and how that's uncompensated, et cetera. But

00:33:44.460 --> 00:33:48.160
when we think about, let's just talk about forest

00:33:48.160 --> 00:33:51.920
land by itself. I mean, it's not taxed, you know

00:33:51.920 --> 00:33:54.089
what I mean, in the same way. that other lands

00:33:54.089 --> 00:33:56.730
are taxed. It's, it's what, 10 cents on the dollar

00:33:56.730 --> 00:34:00.490
compared to, you know, acre by acre of other

00:34:00.490 --> 00:34:02.670
property, whether it's residential or even ag

00:34:02.670 --> 00:34:07.190
land or, you know, industrial property or certainly

00:34:07.190 --> 00:34:08.969
commercial property, it's pennies on the dollar

00:34:08.969 --> 00:34:11.289
by comparison. Now, at the same time, it's got

00:34:11.289 --> 00:34:13.190
a lot of restrictions on it, right? That you

00:34:13.190 --> 00:34:16.349
can't, you can't do certain things. But when

00:34:16.349 --> 00:34:20.780
you look at the, the, the ability to grow and

00:34:20.780 --> 00:34:25.099
harvest timber and not pay the same burden in

00:34:25.099 --> 00:34:28.079
property taxes, isn't there some level of compensation

00:34:28.079 --> 00:34:31.039
that those landowners are getting for providing

00:34:31.039 --> 00:34:33.280
some of those societal benefits in the form of

00:34:33.280 --> 00:34:35.679
those tax breaks? Well, I'm glad you brought

00:34:35.679 --> 00:34:39.420
this up because this is a topic area where at

00:34:39.420 --> 00:34:42.539
times over the years, counties and landowners

00:34:42.539 --> 00:34:45.019
have been at odds with each other. And we're

00:34:45.019 --> 00:34:50.199
talking about it all the time. with our members

00:34:50.199 --> 00:34:53.199
from a whole variety of different perspectives.

00:34:53.440 --> 00:34:55.340
You know our members are really diverse, right?

00:34:55.440 --> 00:34:57.920
We've got members who never saw a tree they didn't

00:34:57.920 --> 00:34:59.880
want to cut, and we've got members who never

00:34:59.880 --> 00:35:02.119
saw a tree they didn't want to save, and a whole

00:35:02.119 --> 00:35:05.599
lot of members in between, right? And so we're

00:35:05.599 --> 00:35:07.659
talking about issues from a forest land management

00:35:07.659 --> 00:35:09.860
point of view all the time, and this is one that

00:35:09.860 --> 00:35:14.260
does come up quite a bit. We in the forest industry

00:35:14.260 --> 00:35:17.380
like to point out the origin of current use taxation.

00:35:17.960 --> 00:35:22.500
is that if we want forest lands to remain in

00:35:22.500 --> 00:35:28.619
forest, if the land value, the soil that the

00:35:28.619 --> 00:35:31.099
trees are growing on, if that land was taxed

00:35:31.099 --> 00:35:36.159
at its highest and best potential use, and what

00:35:36.159 --> 00:35:40.699
led to current use tax program was landowners

00:35:40.699 --> 00:35:43.670
being... assessed taxes that they couldn't afford

00:35:43.670 --> 00:35:46.449
to pay or they would have to cut trees in order

00:35:46.449 --> 00:35:51.170
to pay high land value taxation and they've ran

00:35:51.170 --> 00:35:52.989
out of trees to be able to do it they lose their

00:35:52.989 --> 00:35:56.869
land to tax foreclosure because so a more equitable

00:35:56.869 --> 00:36:00.849
way a lot of times people like to say well you're

00:36:00.849 --> 00:36:04.309
getting a tax break as a forest landowners because

00:36:04.309 --> 00:36:09.530
you're paying small land value tax But what we've

00:36:09.530 --> 00:36:12.369
done is created a harvest tax. At the time that

00:36:12.369 --> 00:36:16.530
we harvest, we pay 5 % of the gross receipts

00:36:16.530 --> 00:36:21.150
of the value of the crop that is harvested. So

00:36:21.150 --> 00:36:26.769
in many ways, it's incentivizing keeping forests

00:36:26.769 --> 00:36:30.170
in forest or resource production in some way

00:36:30.170 --> 00:36:34.659
and disincentivizing the conversion. Now, how

00:36:34.659 --> 00:36:37.599
effective is that at disincentivizing conversion

00:36:37.599 --> 00:36:40.599
of forest land? That's another matter. It's about

00:36:40.599 --> 00:36:43.860
supply and demand and where do we build houses.

00:36:44.019 --> 00:36:49.219
But otherwise, if we don't have current use taxation,

00:36:49.619 --> 00:36:54.500
landowners can't afford to keep land in resource

00:36:54.500 --> 00:36:56.599
production, whether it's agriculture or timber.

00:36:57.199 --> 00:37:00.539
We pay a harvest tax at time of harvest where

00:37:00.539 --> 00:37:03.429
agriculture. Right. They don't. They certainly

00:37:03.429 --> 00:37:06.829
don't. And let's let's let's let's just for the

00:37:06.829 --> 00:37:09.489
lay listener out there, let's talk about why

00:37:09.489 --> 00:37:11.789
does it feel like every podcast that I end up

00:37:11.789 --> 00:37:14.170
talking to someone about ends up talking about

00:37:14.170 --> 00:37:16.530
taxation? But I just want to quickly explain

00:37:16.530 --> 00:37:18.449
what current use taxation is, because some people

00:37:18.449 --> 00:37:21.360
may not know what you're referring to. So property,

00:37:21.539 --> 00:37:25.260
when it's assessed by the county, it's assessed

00:37:25.260 --> 00:37:28.340
at its highest and best use. So say if you have

00:37:28.340 --> 00:37:33.079
an empty lot that's surrounded by high -rise

00:37:33.079 --> 00:37:35.260
buildings in a commercial zone, that property

00:37:35.260 --> 00:37:38.090
is going to be valued as if... a high -rise building

00:37:38.090 --> 00:37:40.050
could be built on it, assuming that's allowed.

00:37:40.289 --> 00:37:42.190
And so it's going to have a much higher value

00:37:42.190 --> 00:37:46.210
than, say, a piece of property that's not available

00:37:46.210 --> 00:37:48.409
for that use. Let's say it's only available for

00:37:48.409 --> 00:37:50.889
single -family residential home building or something

00:37:50.889 --> 00:37:54.010
like that. So the assessor will look at, okay,

00:37:54.050 --> 00:37:57.050
what can this property be used for? They'll do

00:37:57.050 --> 00:37:59.590
an evaluation of similarly -sized properties

00:37:59.590 --> 00:38:01.690
in a similar area that could be used for that

00:38:01.690 --> 00:38:05.260
purpose, and will value it accordingly. Current

00:38:05.260 --> 00:38:08.539
use classification says, regardless of where

00:38:08.539 --> 00:38:11.760
my property is located, regardless of what I

00:38:11.760 --> 00:38:14.340
might be able to do with it at some point in

00:38:14.340 --> 00:38:18.179
the future, I get the benefit of what I'm doing

00:38:18.179 --> 00:38:25.940
with it now for an evaluation of value to basically

00:38:25.940 --> 00:38:28.780
assess what my property taxes might be. And where

00:38:28.780 --> 00:38:33.320
forestry is concerned, That property tax assessment

00:38:33.320 --> 00:38:36.440
and the assignment of value is actually done

00:38:36.440 --> 00:38:40.659
by the state in your particular case. And the

00:38:40.659 --> 00:38:43.360
discount compared to every other current use

00:38:43.360 --> 00:38:45.039
classification, because it's available for forest

00:38:45.039 --> 00:38:47.440
land, it's available for ag land, and it's available

00:38:47.440 --> 00:38:50.059
for what we call open space. So land that's not

00:38:50.059 --> 00:38:54.820
necessarily commercial timber land or land that's

00:38:54.820 --> 00:38:57.000
not necessarily utilized for grazing or other

00:38:57.000 --> 00:39:00.400
agricultural purposes, but maybe has habitat.

00:39:00.710 --> 00:39:03.489
or view shed value or something like that can

00:39:03.489 --> 00:39:06.929
also benefit through this current use classification

00:39:06.929 --> 00:39:08.690
in different ways. And I don't want to go into

00:39:08.690 --> 00:39:10.690
all the different technical details because there's

00:39:10.690 --> 00:39:12.550
all kinds of things like public benefit rating

00:39:12.550 --> 00:39:14.829
systems and other things like that we don't have

00:39:14.829 --> 00:39:16.250
to talk about because that doesn't necessarily

00:39:16.250 --> 00:39:19.289
apply to forest land. But yours actually comes

00:39:19.289 --> 00:39:22.750
from the state. And it is, in most cases, you

00:39:22.750 --> 00:39:25.900
know... 10 cents on the dollar or less, depending

00:39:25.900 --> 00:39:29.719
on where it's located and what you can do with

00:39:29.719 --> 00:39:32.719
it. But you also, in addition to that, have an

00:39:32.719 --> 00:39:36.539
excise tax. So when the timber itself is harvested,

00:39:36.840 --> 00:39:43.519
you pay, is it 5 % of the stumpage value? Yes,

00:39:43.639 --> 00:39:46.500
5 % of the stumpage value. Okay. And that's not

00:39:46.500 --> 00:39:48.320
actually the landowner that pays that, right?

00:39:48.380 --> 00:39:50.500
It's whoever's buying the logs that pays that.

00:39:50.659 --> 00:39:54.219
No, it is the landowner. And if you sell a stumpage

00:39:54.219 --> 00:39:58.219
contract and somebody else is harvesting on your

00:39:58.219 --> 00:40:01.559
land, you can assign that as part of their obligation

00:40:01.559 --> 00:40:05.079
to pay that. But in most cases, landowners are

00:40:05.079 --> 00:40:07.840
paying. They're selling logs off of their land,

00:40:07.920 --> 00:40:11.179
and they're paying the forest products excise

00:40:11.179 --> 00:40:15.030
tax themselves. Okay. What about forested properties

00:40:15.030 --> 00:40:20.670
that never harvest? Well, this is where the current

00:40:20.670 --> 00:40:24.650
use tax system, I believe, could use some improvement

00:40:24.650 --> 00:40:29.090
because I am 100 % in agreement with my county

00:40:29.090 --> 00:40:32.809
in Klickitat County, the assessor there, concerns

00:40:32.809 --> 00:40:37.420
about people enrolling forest land. in the forest

00:40:37.420 --> 00:40:40.900
land tax program but never intending to harvest

00:40:40.900 --> 00:40:43.300
the trees so they get that current use benefit

00:40:43.300 --> 00:40:45.840
so they get the benefit where the county gets

00:40:45.840 --> 00:40:49.960
made they don't get made whole but they get they

00:40:49.960 --> 00:40:53.480
get revenue is at the time of harvest so it really

00:40:53.480 --> 00:40:57.139
relies on somebody actively managing forest land

00:40:57.139 --> 00:41:01.090
so that the county gets its tax base And there

00:41:01.090 --> 00:41:03.849
are a lot of people that enroll in forest tax

00:41:03.849 --> 00:41:07.210
program with no intention. They maybe even play

00:41:07.210 --> 00:41:11.590
the game of a 20 acre parcel with one acre carved

00:41:11.590 --> 00:41:15.530
out for residents and say 19 of it is in current

00:41:15.530 --> 00:41:18.929
use forest. And it's really just a park for them

00:41:18.929 --> 00:41:23.050
or a large backyard that they never plan to harvest.

00:41:23.190 --> 00:41:26.289
And there should be requirements that if you're

00:41:26.289 --> 00:41:28.590
going to enroll in the program, you are actively

00:41:28.590 --> 00:41:32.670
managing your forest land. Because the conversion

00:41:32.670 --> 00:41:36.590
of forest land into 20 -acre parcels, when you

00:41:36.590 --> 00:41:39.530
add that up across the state, if those lands

00:41:39.530 --> 00:41:42.550
are not being managed, that affects the mills

00:41:42.550 --> 00:41:44.429
that we have in the state of Washington who rely

00:41:44.429 --> 00:41:47.809
on that timber supply to keep their mills operating.

00:41:48.289 --> 00:41:52.809
And I didn't mention earlier when I mentioned...

00:41:53.079 --> 00:41:56.519
Our close relationship with WFFA, the Farm Forestry,

00:41:56.519 --> 00:41:59.500
small landowners, we also have a very close relationship

00:41:59.500 --> 00:42:01.880
with American Forest Resource Council, AFRC,

00:42:02.039 --> 00:42:05.320
that represents the mills that operate in the

00:42:05.320 --> 00:42:09.099
state of Washington, primarily on public timber

00:42:09.099 --> 00:42:12.360
supply. But we need those mills. If we don't

00:42:12.360 --> 00:42:16.380
have mills, we don't have... an incentive to

00:42:16.380 --> 00:42:20.159
keep forest land in forest. We don't have investments

00:42:20.159 --> 00:42:24.139
in thinning and fuel reduction that keep forest

00:42:24.139 --> 00:42:27.579
healthy. And if we have a lot of jobs, we don't

00:42:27.579 --> 00:42:30.280
have the jobs. And if we have a lot of land that's

00:42:30.280 --> 00:42:34.059
being, the current use tax system is being gamed,

00:42:34.099 --> 00:42:36.699
so to speak, and not actively being managed,

00:42:36.860 --> 00:42:39.380
that is an impact not only to the mills, but

00:42:39.380 --> 00:42:41.860
also to the counties and their revenue. How do

00:42:41.860 --> 00:42:45.429
you, how important is it? It's really fascinating

00:42:45.429 --> 00:42:46.829
when you sit back and you think about all this

00:42:46.829 --> 00:42:49.190
stuff. And I love conversations like this because

00:42:49.190 --> 00:42:51.630
you just go from layer of complexity to layer

00:42:51.630 --> 00:42:53.889
of complexity. You're right. It's all connected.

00:42:54.090 --> 00:42:57.150
Nothing exists in a vacuum, right? So you've

00:42:57.150 --> 00:42:58.969
got these tax incentives out there that are current

00:42:58.969 --> 00:43:02.070
use classification. They're intended to essentially

00:43:02.070 --> 00:43:05.409
help keep working forests as working forests

00:43:05.409 --> 00:43:09.010
so that there's not this. huge, tremendous tax

00:43:09.010 --> 00:43:12.030
burden that someone can't afford to pay, right?

00:43:12.110 --> 00:43:13.610
Where they have to make a choice between do they

00:43:13.610 --> 00:43:16.389
keep it working forest or not? Do they take care

00:43:16.389 --> 00:43:18.489
of their property or not? Do they make the investments

00:43:18.489 --> 00:43:21.429
so that they can harvest, so that they can reap

00:43:21.429 --> 00:43:23.769
the benefits of harvest that we all benefit from,

00:43:23.829 --> 00:43:26.769
frankly, right? As a society, as well as, you

00:43:26.769 --> 00:43:29.210
know, from the private profiteers, you know,

00:43:29.230 --> 00:43:31.769
from the, which are the landowners and the mill

00:43:31.769 --> 00:43:33.730
owners and the people who get paid to do all

00:43:33.730 --> 00:43:35.550
that work to the people, to the consumers who

00:43:35.550 --> 00:43:38.019
actually use the product. Right. We all benefit

00:43:38.019 --> 00:43:40.639
from that, from a whole variety of different

00:43:40.639 --> 00:43:43.239
perspectives and, you know, personal wealth,

00:43:43.340 --> 00:43:46.940
economic wealth, overall, you know, community

00:43:46.940 --> 00:43:50.860
wealth and and carbon storage and products. And,

00:43:50.980 --> 00:43:53.280
you know, all the other things that while those

00:43:53.280 --> 00:43:54.880
forests are growing, that they provide benefits

00:43:54.880 --> 00:43:57.519
for. Right. All of that. So that's all good.

00:43:58.480 --> 00:44:02.179
But then there's other connections that are made

00:44:02.179 --> 00:44:04.880
there as well. So that current use tax classification

00:44:04.880 --> 00:44:08.599
is based on that particular issue and is meant

00:44:08.599 --> 00:44:11.780
to prevent forest land conversion because we

00:44:11.780 --> 00:44:15.420
need working forests. But then we have, admittedly,

00:44:15.420 --> 00:44:18.039
and we all know it's happening, people that are

00:44:18.039 --> 00:44:20.900
gaming the system that are also taking advantage

00:44:20.900 --> 00:44:23.639
of that current use classification. My estimate

00:44:23.639 --> 00:44:28.059
is it's a lot of people that are doing that who

00:44:28.059 --> 00:44:30.860
have no intention of ever harvesting. But at

00:44:30.860 --> 00:44:36.500
the same time, their property is providing other

00:44:36.500 --> 00:44:40.780
benefits to the community, to the society, to

00:44:40.780 --> 00:44:42.920
the environment, et cetera. How important do

00:44:42.920 --> 00:44:44.739
you think that current use classification is

00:44:44.739 --> 00:44:47.599
to preventing those properties? from being converted

00:44:47.599 --> 00:44:50.599
to other uses? Or do you think it's not important

00:44:50.599 --> 00:44:52.820
at all because they're not really using them

00:44:52.820 --> 00:44:56.940
for timber harvest anyways? In most cases, they

00:44:56.940 --> 00:45:00.480
don't have the ability to break the land down

00:45:00.480 --> 00:45:04.300
into five acres. The zoning won't allow it. Right.

00:45:04.440 --> 00:45:08.579
So they're down at a lot size, like a 20 is most

00:45:08.579 --> 00:45:12.260
common, where they can have a significant portion

00:45:12.260 --> 00:45:14.960
of it in current use tax. and they have their

00:45:14.960 --> 00:45:16.920
residence, and they have no intention of ever

00:45:16.920 --> 00:45:21.099
harvesting it. But if they have the potential

00:45:21.099 --> 00:45:24.300
of breaking it into smaller -sized parcels and

00:45:24.300 --> 00:45:28.159
selling them and encouraging more development

00:45:28.159 --> 00:45:32.059
and more conversion laws, I guess it probably

00:45:32.059 --> 00:45:35.940
helps them keep from doing that. If they're in

00:45:35.940 --> 00:45:37.900
a 40 -acre zone and they've got a 20 -acre lot,

00:45:38.000 --> 00:45:41.059
though, that's not a possibility. Right. So we've

00:45:41.059 --> 00:45:45.059
just attached another string to this issue. And

00:45:45.059 --> 00:45:46.820
then you mentioned the mills, right? And how

00:45:46.820 --> 00:45:49.400
beneficial it would be if some of these properties

00:45:49.400 --> 00:45:52.000
did start harvesting and providing wood supply

00:45:52.000 --> 00:45:55.320
to those mills and that would affect the markets,

00:45:55.420 --> 00:45:57.619
et cetera, et cetera. What do you think would

00:45:57.619 --> 00:46:04.050
happen if the law were modified somehow? put

00:46:04.050 --> 00:46:06.969
some new restrictions on that. And we were able

00:46:06.969 --> 00:46:08.449
to, and I don't know how this would be done,

00:46:08.550 --> 00:46:10.289
but we've been certainly talking about it here

00:46:10.289 --> 00:46:12.789
at WASAC, if we were able to actually better

00:46:12.789 --> 00:46:18.030
enforce that requirement that you actively manage

00:46:18.030 --> 00:46:21.250
your property for commercial timber harvest as

00:46:21.250 --> 00:46:25.150
a requirement, how do you think that would, if

00:46:25.150 --> 00:46:29.590
zoning prohibits people from converting to another

00:46:29.590 --> 00:46:32.130
use, do you think they actually would harvest

00:46:32.130 --> 00:46:36.489
more? It's a good question. You know, my conversations

00:46:36.489 --> 00:46:41.170
with some counties has been, you know, more about

00:46:41.170 --> 00:46:44.269
how do the do the counties already have the tools

00:46:44.269 --> 00:46:49.489
to enforce designated forest land today? Do they

00:46:49.489 --> 00:46:54.670
need legislation to in order to force landowners

00:46:54.670 --> 00:46:57.250
to prove that they're actively managing their

00:46:57.250 --> 00:46:59.889
forests or do they already have the tools? I

00:46:59.889 --> 00:47:02.329
think they already have the tools. Yeah, I would

00:47:02.329 --> 00:47:05.929
disagree. Okay, so then maybe we need to give

00:47:05.929 --> 00:47:09.710
them the tools. But I do know the counties where

00:47:09.710 --> 00:47:15.869
I have land have been much more questioning about

00:47:15.869 --> 00:47:20.389
my intent and having proof of actively managing

00:47:20.389 --> 00:47:24.230
forest land, having to resubmit your forest management

00:47:24.230 --> 00:47:28.190
plan, provide evidence of your following through

00:47:28.190 --> 00:47:30.980
on some of that forest management plan. or they

00:47:30.980 --> 00:47:33.719
threaten to remove you from the forest land tax

00:47:33.719 --> 00:47:35.420
program. There's a pretty stiff penalty for being

00:47:35.420 --> 00:47:37.420
removed from that thing. Yes. Like isn't it 10

00:47:37.420 --> 00:47:39.579
years back taxes or seven? Seven. I believe it's

00:47:39.579 --> 00:47:42.019
seven years back taxes when you drop out. Yeah.

00:47:42.139 --> 00:47:46.300
And so I, I, I welcome that like whatever, whatever's

00:47:46.300 --> 00:47:49.400
needed, would they actively manage their forest

00:47:49.400 --> 00:47:52.780
land and provide us a supply of timber to keep

00:47:52.780 --> 00:47:55.539
rural economies running? Probably not. They're

00:47:55.539 --> 00:47:57.860
probably going to thin forest, but even then

00:47:57.860 --> 00:48:01.980
it's better than, It's better keeping it in forest

00:48:01.980 --> 00:48:05.480
and having light management than having it converted

00:48:05.480 --> 00:48:08.639
completely to non -forest reuse or never managed.

00:48:08.820 --> 00:48:10.599
Do you think the fact that some people are gaming

00:48:10.599 --> 00:48:14.079
the system, do you think that hurts the people

00:48:14.079 --> 00:48:17.159
that really are in the commercial forest industry?

00:48:18.159 --> 00:48:23.420
Yes. It gives the whole program a black eye,

00:48:23.519 --> 00:48:27.920
so to speak. It is a critical program to keeping

00:48:27.920 --> 00:48:31.150
forest land in forest. people that are abusing

00:48:31.150 --> 00:48:32.949
it. I'm super excited about finding a way to

00:48:32.949 --> 00:48:37.469
make this work better with you, Jason. Yeah,

00:48:37.510 --> 00:48:38.869
I didn't even know this was going to happen on

00:48:38.869 --> 00:48:41.409
this podcast. You probably didn't either. Well,

00:48:41.469 --> 00:48:44.590
there's an association for the county assessors,

00:48:44.590 --> 00:48:46.650
isn't there? There is, yeah. There is, yeah.

00:48:46.889 --> 00:48:50.889
No, this is a vexing issue that our members have

00:48:50.889 --> 00:48:52.809
been talking about for a few years off and on.

00:48:53.750 --> 00:48:55.570
And it's one that's interesting, I think, to

00:48:55.570 --> 00:48:57.309
a lot of us. And I agree with you. I think it

00:48:57.309 --> 00:48:59.590
does undermine the program for the legitimate

00:48:59.590 --> 00:49:03.869
users. And it would be great to find some way

00:49:03.869 --> 00:49:09.320
to... you know, make sure that those people that

00:49:09.320 --> 00:49:11.420
are taking advantage of something that they really

00:49:11.420 --> 00:49:13.500
shouldn't be allowed to take advantage of are

00:49:13.500 --> 00:49:16.900
not. Or, you know, and or, you know, if we could

00:49:16.900 --> 00:49:19.400
provide additional benefits to a resource -based

00:49:19.400 --> 00:49:21.860
industry that really is one of the foundational

00:49:21.860 --> 00:49:24.539
industries of Washington State and the entire

00:49:24.539 --> 00:49:27.099
Northwest, you know, that's going to help everyone.

00:49:27.420 --> 00:49:30.179
You touched on this earlier. You asked me a question

00:49:30.179 --> 00:49:34.730
that I... didn't fully answer and you then touched

00:49:34.730 --> 00:49:37.550
on part of it. It's not only the environmental

00:49:37.550 --> 00:49:40.769
benefits that forest land provide, the water

00:49:40.769 --> 00:49:43.550
quality, the wildlife habitat, the carbon sequestration.

00:49:43.969 --> 00:49:47.630
It's also when we actively manage and utilize

00:49:47.630 --> 00:49:50.710
our forests, we provide the jobs, we provide

00:49:50.710 --> 00:49:54.429
the wood building materials, renewable building

00:49:54.429 --> 00:49:57.730
materials. And if we don't grow them and harvest

00:49:57.730 --> 00:50:00.010
them and provide them in the state of Washington,

00:50:00.650 --> 00:50:02.809
Where do we get them from? We bring them in from

00:50:02.809 --> 00:50:04.690
other countries. We bring in our wood products,

00:50:04.750 --> 00:50:07.949
meet our building needs. We still have a societal

00:50:07.949 --> 00:50:12.809
need. I do think that forest lands should be

00:50:12.809 --> 00:50:16.349
recognized in the state of Washington. Counties,

00:50:16.409 --> 00:50:20.710
the urban counties that don't have, they have

00:50:20.710 --> 00:50:23.690
converted all of their forest land. Their county

00:50:23.690 --> 00:50:29.460
has reaped the reward of the demand. the reward

00:50:29.460 --> 00:50:32.780
in the form of tax base and the demand for lands,

00:50:32.920 --> 00:50:37.139
yet they still rely on the rural counties providing

00:50:37.139 --> 00:50:41.659
these ecosystem services or environmental values.

00:50:42.000 --> 00:50:45.840
There should be some compensation to, because

00:50:45.840 --> 00:50:49.659
it's the county lands, the county tax base is

00:50:49.659 --> 00:50:53.599
taking, is restricted because we're keeping lands

00:50:53.599 --> 00:50:56.360
in forest. We want to keep them in forest, but

00:50:56.360 --> 00:51:00.280
that county has. has a lost opportunity. Yeah.

00:51:00.420 --> 00:51:05.119
And there should be some value to from the urban

00:51:05.119 --> 00:51:07.599
counties to the rural counties. It's almost like

00:51:07.599 --> 00:51:10.820
they're being asked to make a sacrifice for the

00:51:10.820 --> 00:51:13.539
benefit of everyone. Yes. Right. But the cost

00:51:13.539 --> 00:51:16.619
of that sacrifice isn't really shared by everyone.

00:51:16.739 --> 00:51:19.260
I mean, you could say that it is a little bit

00:51:19.260 --> 00:51:21.800
because, you know, when you hurt the tax base

00:51:21.800 --> 00:51:24.739
overall for the region. Others have to make up

00:51:24.739 --> 00:51:27.099
the difference. You could say that by restricting

00:51:27.099 --> 00:51:31.199
the market, it makes goods more expensive, right?

00:51:31.840 --> 00:51:34.739
Because of just the basic laws of supply and

00:51:34.739 --> 00:51:40.260
demand. But those are really kind of, they're

00:51:40.260 --> 00:51:42.400
dependent on whether someone actually engages

00:51:42.400 --> 00:51:44.480
in that marketplace, right? They're dependent

00:51:44.480 --> 00:51:50.280
on whether or not, you know, well. People of

00:51:50.280 --> 00:51:53.179
means versus people of less means are going to

00:51:53.179 --> 00:51:55.280
have a different level of burden where a lot

00:51:55.280 --> 00:51:57.119
of that is concerned. I mean, there's just many,

00:51:57.219 --> 00:52:01.019
many factors to think about. I really like where

00:52:01.019 --> 00:52:03.840
you're headed with this. And I want to talk about

00:52:03.840 --> 00:52:05.880
just really briefly because I really want to

00:52:05.880 --> 00:52:08.519
get to kind of this riparian discussion on the

00:52:08.519 --> 00:52:12.760
riparian restoration roundtable, which both you

00:52:12.760 --> 00:52:15.059
and I have been working on diligently really

00:52:15.059 --> 00:52:19.070
for the last. Two years. Two to three years.

00:52:20.489 --> 00:52:23.650
But, you know, you kind of mentioned, you know,

00:52:23.650 --> 00:52:26.590
how good the region is environmentally for growing

00:52:26.590 --> 00:52:30.389
and managing, you know, timber. Some people from,

00:52:30.469 --> 00:52:33.590
you know, one perspective, and let's just say

00:52:33.590 --> 00:52:35.329
it's more of an environmental perspective, will

00:52:35.329 --> 00:52:38.570
say, well, because of that, we have a greater

00:52:38.570 --> 00:52:42.679
responsibility. to protect those areas, right?

00:52:42.780 --> 00:52:47.239
To make sure that we are being as sustainable

00:52:47.239 --> 00:52:50.099
in our practices as possible. And there's always

00:52:50.099 --> 00:52:54.719
room for improvement. And the benefits that we

00:52:54.719 --> 00:52:58.360
get environmentally from that not only help us,

00:52:58.380 --> 00:53:01.199
but help the globe, right? And the bigger problem,

00:53:01.320 --> 00:53:03.840
if you agree that there's a bigger problem around,

00:53:04.000 --> 00:53:10.000
you know, climate change long -term. that because

00:53:10.000 --> 00:53:12.619
of regions like ours, we have a greater opportunity

00:53:12.619 --> 00:53:15.059
to have a greater impact. And it's our responsibility

00:53:15.059 --> 00:53:17.500
to do that. And we're very fortunate to live

00:53:17.500 --> 00:53:19.380
in this environment, right? And we should share

00:53:19.380 --> 00:53:22.460
that with others. The other side of that coin,

00:53:22.559 --> 00:53:24.980
and you started to touch on it a little bit.

00:53:25.000 --> 00:53:26.940
You didn't go there completely, but I knew where

00:53:26.940 --> 00:53:31.000
you were going. If we don't grow it, who will?

00:53:31.519 --> 00:53:33.579
Where do we get it from? And under what circumstances?

00:53:34.159 --> 00:53:37.639
And, you know, one of the most interesting quotes

00:53:37.639 --> 00:53:41.079
that I've ever heard was from Elaine O 'Neill,

00:53:41.260 --> 00:53:43.639
someone that you know, someone that I know. She's

00:53:43.639 --> 00:53:45.679
the executive director of the Washington Farm

00:53:45.679 --> 00:53:48.659
Forestry Association, right? She's also a PhD

00:53:48.659 --> 00:53:52.300
at UW. She said to me, we were having an interesting

00:53:52.300 --> 00:53:54.539
conversation about carbon one day, and she said

00:53:54.539 --> 00:54:01.179
to me, it's our responsibility. Not just to protect

00:54:01.179 --> 00:54:04.400
the environment, but to grow and harvest trees

00:54:04.400 --> 00:54:06.460
here in the Northwest because there's no better

00:54:06.460 --> 00:54:10.219
place to do it. It's more efficient. It's better

00:54:10.219 --> 00:54:13.360
quality. And we have some of the greatest protections

00:54:13.360 --> 00:54:17.840
in the world in place already. What do you think

00:54:17.840 --> 00:54:20.920
of the two sides of that coin? Well, you can

00:54:20.920 --> 00:54:23.480
guess where I agree with Elaine completely. We

00:54:23.480 --> 00:54:26.840
do not value... But you're biased, right? Because

00:54:26.840 --> 00:54:31.789
you represent the landowners. Do you say that

00:54:31.789 --> 00:54:34.869
just because you represent the landowners? Or

00:54:34.869 --> 00:54:38.090
do you really believe that that's the stronger

00:54:38.090 --> 00:54:40.730
side of that argument? Or is there more of a

00:54:40.730 --> 00:54:44.329
balance somewhere? So I am a forest landowner

00:54:44.329 --> 00:54:48.070
myself and an agricultural landowner myself.

00:54:48.250 --> 00:54:52.050
And I know the standards that we have to adhere

00:54:52.050 --> 00:54:54.969
to to operate in the state of Washington, particularly

00:54:54.969 --> 00:54:57.389
on forest land under the Forest Practices Act.

00:54:58.889 --> 00:55:03.769
I do believe it. I'm separating my representation

00:55:03.769 --> 00:55:08.250
of the industry at WFPA from my core belief that

00:55:08.250 --> 00:55:11.650
I'm passionate about this, that we have to manage

00:55:11.650 --> 00:55:13.769
our forest land, no matter what the outcome is

00:55:13.769 --> 00:55:16.579
that you want, if you want to grow. wildlife

00:55:16.579 --> 00:55:19.300
habitat you have to actively manage to create

00:55:19.300 --> 00:55:22.019
that otherwise you have mortality you have fire

00:55:22.019 --> 00:55:25.139
you have disease right forest deteriorates and

00:55:25.139 --> 00:55:27.300
then you have a mess and we see what we see that

00:55:27.300 --> 00:55:29.699
happening today on the national forests here

00:55:29.699 --> 00:55:31.920
in washington and throughout the northwest and

00:55:31.920 --> 00:55:34.980
and we have in addition to environmental responsibility

00:55:34.980 --> 00:55:38.139
the obligation to actively manage forests we

00:55:38.139 --> 00:55:41.960
also have a societal duty a duty to the to the

00:55:41.960 --> 00:55:45.039
state to the country to the globe to produce

00:55:45.039 --> 00:55:47.940
the wood products that are renewable, that are

00:55:47.940 --> 00:55:53.519
based in carbon. They're produced by carbon sequestration.

00:55:53.980 --> 00:55:57.219
As a mutual friend we have, Mike Warjohn, has

00:55:57.219 --> 00:55:59.360
said before, and I've quoted him a few times

00:55:59.360 --> 00:56:03.840
on this, he said, So just for full disclosure,

00:56:04.000 --> 00:56:06.840
Mike is the CEO of Port Blakely. Correct. Yeah.

00:56:07.059 --> 00:56:11.889
Port Blakely Timber Company. Is it an economy

00:56:11.889 --> 00:56:15.889
where we value materials that are grown on the

00:56:15.889 --> 00:56:18.489
surface of the earth rather than mined out of

00:56:18.489 --> 00:56:21.949
the earth? And, you know, trees that sequester,

00:56:21.949 --> 00:56:24.949
whether it's trees, plants, the agriculture community

00:56:24.949 --> 00:56:27.389
is not recognized for the contributions that

00:56:27.389 --> 00:56:30.150
they provide in carbon sequestration. Forestry

00:56:30.150 --> 00:56:32.989
community is not recognized. Sequestering carbon,

00:56:33.090 --> 00:56:35.829
creating building products that society needs.

00:56:36.070 --> 00:56:39.360
And if we look at this. comprehensively, we look

00:56:39.360 --> 00:56:42.860
at it globally. If we're not producing it, where

00:56:42.860 --> 00:56:45.559
is it coming from? Where do we get our wood from?

00:56:45.760 --> 00:56:48.119
If we don't have mills that have capability,

00:56:48.119 --> 00:56:52.079
this is why we're so intent on maintaining the

00:56:52.079 --> 00:56:54.739
economic viability of our industry as a whole.

00:56:54.920 --> 00:56:58.460
The pulp and paper sector is necessary. The biofuel

00:56:58.460 --> 00:57:02.599
sector is necessary. The solid sawn wood and

00:57:02.599 --> 00:57:06.480
plywood is necessary. Forest lands are necessary.

00:57:07.099 --> 00:57:09.460
Because we have a duty and an obligation to society

00:57:09.460 --> 00:57:12.239
to produce carbon -friendly building materials

00:57:12.239 --> 00:57:15.219
that society demands. Anybody who says otherwise,

00:57:15.519 --> 00:57:19.119
I'm sorry. But there's a lot of environmental

00:57:19.119 --> 00:57:22.340
hypocrisy that goes on in the state of Washington.

00:57:22.340 --> 00:57:25.960
Can we live without the products that the forest

00:57:25.960 --> 00:57:29.210
industry provides, do you think? Not without

00:57:29.210 --> 00:57:32.230
much higher carbon impacts. So you're talking

00:57:32.230 --> 00:57:36.829
like steel, aluminum, plastics. Concrete. Concrete.

00:57:36.989 --> 00:57:39.269
All the other type of building materials that

00:57:39.269 --> 00:57:41.949
we use. Well, what about like natural stone?

00:57:42.889 --> 00:57:45.409
It's still mined out of the surface of the earth.

00:57:45.449 --> 00:57:50.489
It doesn't develop from sequestered carbon. Right.

00:57:50.789 --> 00:57:55.690
And it's still a one -way. Now, I'm not. contrary

00:57:55.690 --> 00:57:58.090
i'm not against the you do got to blow it up

00:57:58.090 --> 00:58:02.369
to get it out yeah well exactly but i'm not there's

00:58:02.369 --> 00:58:05.789
probably a little carbon released we we we need

00:58:05.789 --> 00:58:10.190
we need stone we need aggregate we need concrete

00:58:10.190 --> 00:58:13.730
we need steel yeah but you guys burn carbon when

00:58:13.730 --> 00:58:16.179
you harvest I mean, you know, you're burning

00:58:16.179 --> 00:58:19.360
diesel fuel in those engines. You're burning,

00:58:19.480 --> 00:58:22.199
you know, regular gasoline or diesel fuel in

00:58:22.199 --> 00:58:26.719
the tools that you use. Yep. Right. You're cutting

00:58:26.719 --> 00:58:30.059
down trees that are now no longer alive. And

00:58:30.059 --> 00:58:32.800
there's a lot of waste associated with that.

00:58:32.820 --> 00:58:34.840
Right. Because you're leaving a lot of the branches

00:58:34.840 --> 00:58:37.480
and the other things behind. And those are going

00:58:37.480 --> 00:58:39.579
to decay quickly and release that carbon back

00:58:39.579 --> 00:58:43.119
into the atmosphere. I mean, you're not a carbon

00:58:43.119 --> 00:58:48.739
free. kind of business either however yes and

00:58:48.739 --> 00:58:51.559
even after considering all of the emissions associated

00:58:51.559 --> 00:58:56.460
with harvest and the mill conversion the mills

00:58:56.460 --> 00:58:59.960
that are converting that those logs into lumber

00:58:59.960 --> 00:59:02.880
building yeah usable lumber and even considering

00:59:02.880 --> 00:59:05.500
the short -lived wood products the paper products

00:59:05.500 --> 00:59:08.159
those those that decay fast so are you talking

00:59:08.159 --> 00:59:10.099
about considering the whole life cycle from considering

00:59:10.099 --> 00:59:12.900
the whole life cycle planting that seed all the

00:59:12.900 --> 00:59:18.239
way to We still are a net carbon sink. Forestry

00:59:18.239 --> 00:59:24.440
is a source or a sink of carbon, net carbon sink.

00:59:24.519 --> 00:59:28.360
And we offset, I think the number was 11 % of

00:59:28.360 --> 00:59:31.320
the calculations that have been done, 11 % of

00:59:31.320 --> 00:59:35.860
the state's entire emissions are offset by forestry,

00:59:35.960 --> 00:59:39.099
even after considering all of the emissions associated

00:59:39.099 --> 00:59:42.400
with harvest and manufacture. Can any other manufacturer

00:59:42.400 --> 00:59:44.820
say that? No. We're the only one. Are you sure?

00:59:44.960 --> 00:59:49.800
Yes. That's an interesting statistic. Yes. Oh.

00:59:50.900 --> 00:59:55.820
Okay. Now, forest nationally, the Forest Service

00:59:55.820 --> 01:00:01.579
has FIA, Forest Inventory Assessment, part of

01:00:01.579 --> 01:00:05.480
the National Forest System, FIA data and the

01:00:05.480 --> 01:00:09.619
Forest Service has cautioned that. Forests nationally

01:00:09.619 --> 01:00:15.380
are at risk of becoming a carbon emitter. That's

01:00:15.380 --> 01:00:19.519
mainly because of wildfires on forest lands throughout

01:00:19.519 --> 01:00:22.739
the United States, where forests have always

01:00:22.739 --> 01:00:26.900
been a net carbon sink. If the trajectory and

01:00:26.900 --> 01:00:31.820
frequency of wildfire continues, forests as a

01:00:31.820 --> 01:00:34.840
whole will flip. Yeah, a big wildfire is a massive

01:00:34.840 --> 01:00:37.360
and almost instantaneous release of carbon into

01:00:37.360 --> 01:00:40.460
the atmosphere, right? Right. Almost, well, probably

01:00:40.460 --> 01:00:43.179
not quite to the level of a volcanic explosion,

01:00:43.300 --> 01:00:49.000
but certainly isn't a good thing. Not a good

01:00:49.000 --> 01:00:52.460
thing. Yeah. Well, that's super interesting.

01:00:53.119 --> 01:00:55.860
I assume that if anybody wanted to do some more

01:00:55.860 --> 01:00:57.440
research, they could probably go to your website

01:00:57.440 --> 01:00:59.619
and find the statistics on that that you're quoting.

01:01:00.960 --> 01:01:04.579
Well, we've been all over the map. And I just

01:01:04.579 --> 01:01:06.320
let the conversation kind of go where it went.

01:01:06.400 --> 01:01:08.960
And it's just fascinating to me, again, how every

01:01:08.960 --> 01:01:12.000
thread delves into another thread, delves into

01:01:12.000 --> 01:01:15.039
another thread. And I think a lot of people,

01:01:15.219 --> 01:01:19.119
when they think about forest land management,

01:01:19.260 --> 01:01:21.079
they don't really make all the connections that

01:01:21.079 --> 01:01:23.619
you and I just made in this conversation. And

01:01:23.619 --> 01:01:25.860
when you think about it and when you have that

01:01:25.860 --> 01:01:27.639
kind of conversation and you really start to

01:01:27.639 --> 01:01:37.190
realize how... much of what we know of as our

01:01:37.190 --> 01:01:39.530
life in the Northwest, in Washington State and

01:01:39.530 --> 01:01:42.010
in the Northwest region is connected one way

01:01:42.010 --> 01:01:45.670
or another to the landscape that we all live

01:01:45.670 --> 01:01:47.389
and work in, including the forest. It's just

01:01:47.389 --> 01:01:51.250
fascinating to dive into all the implications.

01:01:52.239 --> 01:01:55.019
and all the different kind of policy areas that

01:01:55.019 --> 01:01:58.760
you can talk about. One that we really haven't

01:01:58.760 --> 01:02:00.880
talked much about that I want to talk about before

01:02:00.880 --> 01:02:06.219
we get out of here today is riparian. And by

01:02:06.219 --> 01:02:09.320
riparian, I mean the area that's near rivers

01:02:09.320 --> 01:02:12.659
and streams primarily, but also wetlands, also

01:02:12.659 --> 01:02:15.639
lakes, et cetera. These are all riparian environments,

01:02:15.880 --> 01:02:19.900
and they're really critical from a whole different...

01:02:20.159 --> 01:02:23.360
perspective. They're a really important ecosystem

01:02:23.360 --> 01:02:25.639
to a lot of different species. They have a lot

01:02:25.639 --> 01:02:28.139
of impact on water quality, water quantity, water

01:02:28.139 --> 01:02:31.119
temperature, and the ability for fish to survive.

01:02:31.260 --> 01:02:34.239
They're a big issue around salmon recovery, which

01:02:34.239 --> 01:02:36.940
is a huge issue in Washington State and in the

01:02:36.940 --> 01:02:39.880
Northwest region. And they're a big issue for

01:02:39.880 --> 01:02:43.320
forestry. And lately, they've become an even

01:02:43.320 --> 01:02:45.679
bigger issue statewide, as you and I have been

01:02:45.679 --> 01:02:48.039
working on what's known as the statewide riparian

01:02:48.039 --> 01:02:52.159
restoration. And this all started a couple of

01:02:52.159 --> 01:02:55.980
years ago with an ill -fated bill that was introduced

01:02:55.980 --> 01:03:00.019
by the Inslee administration that really never

01:03:00.019 --> 01:03:03.800
got out of the gates. This was in, what, 2022

01:03:03.800 --> 01:03:09.559
maybe, 2021, that would have required riparian

01:03:09.559 --> 01:03:14.260
landowners, basically anybody who had... a riparian

01:03:14.260 --> 01:03:17.099
area on their property would have required them

01:03:17.099 --> 01:03:20.119
to do restoration. We've since kind of backed

01:03:20.119 --> 01:03:22.219
away from that position a little bit. We've had

01:03:22.219 --> 01:03:24.460
some ongoing discussions with tribes and with

01:03:24.460 --> 01:03:28.039
ag folks and with cities and counties and conservation

01:03:28.039 --> 01:03:33.960
interests and state agencies and others on kind

01:03:33.960 --> 01:03:36.820
of what to do around riparian issues. And the

01:03:36.820 --> 01:03:40.059
reason I think you have a unique voice here is

01:03:41.030 --> 01:03:43.429
Forest landowners have been very engaged in this

01:03:43.429 --> 01:03:47.889
for a very long time. And a ton of the forest

01:03:47.889 --> 01:03:51.590
practices and a ton of the regulations associated

01:03:51.590 --> 01:03:56.869
with those really focus on that forest riparian.

01:03:57.239 --> 01:04:00.119
And we've been talking to our members for the

01:04:00.119 --> 01:04:03.079
last several months about why that is and what's

01:04:03.079 --> 01:04:05.559
important about the forest riparian environment.

01:04:06.280 --> 01:04:10.260
I'm just curious what you think about these statewide

01:04:10.260 --> 01:04:14.099
kind of talks and how the conversation has expanded,

01:04:14.179 --> 01:04:17.800
whether you welcome that, whether you think there

01:04:17.800 --> 01:04:19.780
are risks involved, just kind of what your take

01:04:19.780 --> 01:04:24.039
is from a forest landowner point of view. Yeah,

01:04:24.039 --> 01:04:28.929
I think we... welcome the conversation and welcome

01:04:28.929 --> 01:04:33.590
other parties being part of the solution and

01:04:33.590 --> 01:04:37.170
by other parties you know it's not going to work

01:04:37.170 --> 01:04:42.030
if the the focus is just on the next downstream

01:04:42.030 --> 01:04:46.349
land use agriculture as an example if the focus

01:04:46.349 --> 01:04:50.170
is entirely on them it's not going to work because

01:04:50.170 --> 01:04:52.409
there are downstream downstream of agriculture

01:04:52.409 --> 01:04:55.960
there are other land uses there's urban residential

01:04:55.960 --> 01:05:01.280
areas, there's industrial areas, there are municipal

01:05:01.280 --> 01:05:06.360
discharges, treatment facilities, and such. When

01:05:06.360 --> 01:05:09.440
you say, you said we welcome people being part

01:05:09.440 --> 01:05:12.239
of the solution. What do you mean by that? Because

01:05:12.239 --> 01:05:14.900
I think that not everybody understands what we're

01:05:14.900 --> 01:05:17.739
talking about when I talk about riparian restoration

01:05:17.739 --> 01:05:21.760
and when we talk about the solution, so to speak.

01:05:21.840 --> 01:05:24.079
Can you just expand on that a little bit? Because

01:05:24.079 --> 01:05:26.500
I think that's really key to the conversation.

01:05:27.239 --> 01:05:30.340
Yeah, well, we in the forest land environment,

01:05:30.699 --> 01:05:34.670
forest land owners are proud of... the accomplishments

01:05:34.670 --> 01:05:37.489
that we've achieved through the forest and fish

01:05:37.489 --> 01:05:41.610
law and HCP. As I mentioned earlier, the miles

01:05:41.610 --> 01:05:45.989
of streams that had blockages, culvert blockages

01:05:45.989 --> 01:05:50.969
or road crossings that prevented fish access

01:05:50.969 --> 01:05:54.449
in waterways. And this is in forested areas,

01:05:54.570 --> 01:05:56.710
right? This is in the forested environment. Where

01:05:56.710 --> 01:06:00.530
with the programs that we've implemented, our

01:06:00.530 --> 01:06:04.340
map and forest practices rules, We have opened

01:06:04.340 --> 01:06:07.360
up streams. But if they're still blocked. So

01:06:07.360 --> 01:06:09.599
you broke a rule that we have here on the podcast.

01:06:09.840 --> 01:06:12.079
We're not allowed to use acronyms unless we say

01:06:12.079 --> 01:06:15.239
what they are. So our map is? Oh, road maintenance

01:06:15.239 --> 01:06:18.860
and abandonment plans. Okay. So that's a particular

01:06:18.860 --> 01:06:20.579
program in the forested areas. And the reason

01:06:20.579 --> 01:06:22.579
that's important, correct me if I'm wrong, is

01:06:22.579 --> 01:06:25.639
in the past, you didn't necessarily care about,

01:06:25.860 --> 01:06:30.710
you know. stream health necessarily or fish passage

01:06:30.710 --> 01:06:32.730
you were concerned about making sure your roads

01:06:32.730 --> 01:06:35.349
didn't wash out right and so you would place

01:06:35.349 --> 01:06:38.550
occur you would place a culvert and i'm not indicting

01:06:38.550 --> 01:06:40.369
anybody i'm just you know we didn't know what

01:06:40.369 --> 01:06:41.829
the science was we didn't know what the impacts

01:06:41.829 --> 01:06:43.769
were in the past but you would place a culvert

01:06:43.769 --> 01:06:46.590
as cheaply as possible as small as you could

01:06:46.590 --> 01:06:49.010
get away with right and you would position it

01:06:49.010 --> 01:06:51.590
as easily as you could so that you could move

01:06:51.590 --> 01:06:53.730
on to the next thing and make sure the road doesn't

01:06:53.730 --> 01:06:57.300
wash out right but in many instances it was undersized

01:06:57.300 --> 01:06:59.820
the flow wasn't right you would create you know

01:06:59.820 --> 01:07:02.360
maybe during high runoff these hydraulic you

01:07:02.360 --> 01:07:05.440
know blasts that would go through there um and

01:07:05.440 --> 01:07:07.500
it would wash away areas that it would disconnect

01:07:07.500 --> 01:07:10.639
say the the creek bottom uh with the culvert

01:07:10.639 --> 01:07:13.219
bottom itself so you'd have a gap of you know

01:07:13.219 --> 01:07:16.000
a foot or two or three and that's not good for

01:07:16.000 --> 01:07:19.510
fish yeah it's i would i would say that we've

01:07:19.510 --> 01:07:22.429
we learned as we we've learned as we've gone

01:07:22.429 --> 01:07:26.409
along the way more about what fish require and

01:07:26.409 --> 01:07:29.269
fish passages and we've all learned that and

01:07:29.269 --> 01:07:33.110
and we have taken steps in the forestry land

01:07:33.110 --> 01:07:36.010
base the forestry part of the watershed to remedy

01:07:36.010 --> 01:07:38.429
those and we have a system in place for doing

01:07:38.429 --> 01:07:41.230
it and a system for reviewing it and approving

01:07:41.230 --> 01:07:44.380
and monitoring it and a pretty effective system

01:07:44.380 --> 01:07:47.059
been a very effective system yeah but if if all

01:07:47.059 --> 01:07:50.139
of our efforts so if we're contributing to solutions

01:07:50.139 --> 01:07:53.880
in the forested environment but those efforts

01:07:53.880 --> 01:07:56.480
are negated then the fish can't even make their

01:07:56.480 --> 01:07:59.239
way back to realize the benefit of what we've

01:07:59.239 --> 01:08:01.900
provided then there's a problem not not everybody

01:08:01.900 --> 01:08:05.739
is contributing toward solutions so the solution

01:08:05.739 --> 01:08:10.619
is getting the fish back into habitat that is

01:08:10.619 --> 01:08:13.519
clean that's good quality some would even say

01:08:13.519 --> 01:08:16.979
pristine in many instances where they can actually

01:08:16.979 --> 01:08:22.340
spawn and those eggs can hatch those salmon fry

01:08:22.340 --> 01:08:25.560
right can grow to juveniles and then they can

01:08:25.560 --> 01:08:28.340
get out and then come back and perpetuate the

01:08:28.340 --> 01:08:31.800
cycle and you're saying is Even if we have great,

01:08:31.899 --> 01:08:33.760
beautiful habitat in the forest environment,

01:08:34.000 --> 01:08:36.680
if there are other fish barriers or other conditions

01:08:36.680 --> 01:08:39.079
downstream, whether it's pollution, whether it's

01:08:39.079 --> 01:08:42.859
heat, whether it's blockages, et cetera, that

01:08:42.859 --> 01:08:44.619
prevent them from accessing that, then what's

01:08:44.619 --> 01:08:49.060
the point? Exactly. And what we want to have

01:08:49.060 --> 01:08:55.159
is a healthy system from the saltwater all the

01:08:55.159 --> 01:08:57.420
way up through. Right. the forested environment

01:08:57.420 --> 01:09:01.500
to the headwaters. And we don't want fish to

01:09:01.500 --> 01:09:04.760
have to run the gauntlet of death to get back

01:09:04.760 --> 01:09:08.119
to the high quality habitat that exists upstream.

01:09:08.359 --> 01:09:11.359
We want them to be healthy and productive and

01:09:11.359 --> 01:09:13.699
not contaminated. And we have everything from

01:09:13.699 --> 01:09:17.840
tire dust that runs off into streams or, or,

01:09:17.960 --> 01:09:21.659
you know, discharges of pollutants and PFAS and

01:09:21.659 --> 01:09:24.439
all, there's all kinds of examples. And now.

01:09:25.920 --> 01:09:29.800
solutions as we talked about earlier why do people

01:09:29.800 --> 01:09:33.340
focus on forestry so much and i i said because

01:09:33.340 --> 01:09:36.779
it's much harder in the lower watershed to deal

01:09:36.779 --> 01:09:39.600
with all of those issues and and provide high

01:09:39.600 --> 01:09:42.680
quality habitat where you've already had degradation

01:09:42.680 --> 01:09:46.319
history of degrading a century of degradation

01:09:46.319 --> 01:09:50.899
in seattle for example uh how do you restore

01:09:50.899 --> 01:09:55.560
that and we we can't We all have to do our part.

01:09:55.760 --> 01:09:58.920
I mean, salmon recovery should be a shared responsibility

01:09:58.920 --> 01:10:03.100
of everyone. And you can't just put the cost

01:10:03.100 --> 01:10:06.279
on forest landowners or agricultural landowners

01:10:06.279 --> 01:10:08.899
or residential landowners. But that's what we

01:10:08.899 --> 01:10:10.840
have been doing. That is what we have been doing.

01:10:10.920 --> 01:10:14.260
And it won't work. You think there's real possibility

01:10:14.260 --> 01:10:16.279
through some of these discussions on the riparian

01:10:16.279 --> 01:10:18.140
restoration roundtable that that could change?

01:10:18.699 --> 01:10:23.600
I think it really depends on back to... very

01:10:23.600 --> 01:10:25.840
early on in this conversation, my comment about

01:10:25.840 --> 01:10:32.380
finding a win -win if, if the goal is to hammer

01:10:32.380 --> 01:10:36.199
any sector of the economy and, and I'll just

01:10:36.199 --> 01:10:38.479
focus on agriculture for the moment, but we,

01:10:38.520 --> 01:10:40.760
you know, I could easily focus on residential

01:10:40.760 --> 01:10:43.420
because we do need resident. We have housing

01:10:43.420 --> 01:10:45.800
shortages. We have unaffordability of housing.

01:10:45.880 --> 01:10:49.050
We need housing supply. So. I could argue about

01:10:49.050 --> 01:10:51.710
the residential zone as well, that we have to

01:10:51.710 --> 01:10:56.470
find ways to compromise. We can't just say no

01:10:56.470 --> 01:11:01.489
impact at all. We have to allow for human impact,

01:11:01.569 --> 01:11:04.649
but we have to do it responsibly and contribute

01:11:04.649 --> 01:11:07.930
toward the solution. Maybe not completely solve

01:11:07.930 --> 01:11:11.130
it all at once, but take incremental steps towards

01:11:11.130 --> 01:11:14.210
solving and making things better. The focus of

01:11:14.210 --> 01:11:16.949
the riparian roundtable that you've talked about,

01:11:17.119 --> 01:11:19.960
talked about, has primarily been on agriculture.

01:11:20.260 --> 01:11:24.460
And we need food supply. We have an absolute

01:11:24.460 --> 01:11:28.539
need for sustainably grown food done responsibly.

01:11:29.060 --> 01:11:32.439
We can't put our farmers out of business. We

01:11:32.439 --> 01:11:36.520
can't render their farms inoperable or uneconomic

01:11:36.520 --> 01:11:40.479
to operate. So we have to find an appropriate

01:11:40.479 --> 01:11:43.470
balance there where they're... incentivized and

01:11:43.470 --> 01:11:46.930
rewarded for being part of the solution and not

01:11:46.930 --> 01:11:49.590
just simply burdened them in a way that causes

01:11:49.590 --> 01:11:51.869
them to shut down and go out of business. Imagine

01:11:51.869 --> 01:11:55.649
if we saw the increase. Well, let me, maybe I

01:11:55.649 --> 01:11:58.949
should say this first. Do you agree that the

01:11:58.949 --> 01:12:02.289
prices for timber products are much higher than

01:12:02.289 --> 01:12:07.289
they used to be? Yes. Do you think that some

01:12:07.289 --> 01:12:08.970
of the restrictive regulations around forest

01:12:08.970 --> 01:12:11.250
practices have contributed to that by limiting

01:12:11.250 --> 01:12:17.130
supply? Yes, to some degree. I think that's probably

01:12:17.130 --> 01:12:22.710
the lesser of the impacts. I think growing demand,

01:12:22.970 --> 01:12:26.770
increasing demand, population just keeps growing,

01:12:26.810 --> 01:12:29.329
so there's more and more demand. We have shifted

01:12:29.329 --> 01:12:33.510
the supply from a larger land base of forest

01:12:33.510 --> 01:12:36.689
land. Federal lands, state lands, and private

01:12:36.689 --> 01:12:39.989
land. We've shifted that demand to be supplied

01:12:39.989 --> 01:12:43.310
primarily by private lands. Right. So private

01:12:43.310 --> 01:12:46.050
lands have had to manage more intensively to

01:12:46.050 --> 01:12:49.289
meet the demand, a growing demand. Lower supply,

01:12:49.649 --> 01:12:52.630
higher demand. Yeah. Bigger prices, right? It's

01:12:52.630 --> 01:12:54.970
a combination of multiple things that have increased

01:12:54.970 --> 01:12:56.930
the... Imagine if we did the same thing to the

01:12:56.930 --> 01:12:59.920
agricultural sector. Yeah. How do you think people

01:12:59.920 --> 01:13:02.600
would react to much higher food prices as a result?

01:13:02.859 --> 01:13:05.460
Yeah, not very well. I mean, we've seen just,

01:13:05.640 --> 01:13:07.920
you know, with all of the federal tariffs and

01:13:07.920 --> 01:13:11.100
the issues and agricultural products, food prices

01:13:11.100 --> 01:13:14.529
going up and look at the... cry that we've had

01:13:14.529 --> 01:13:17.470
yeah right well jason this has been fascinating

01:13:17.470 --> 01:13:20.729
and i feel like we could talk all day um in fact

01:13:20.729 --> 01:13:23.189
i haven't even really scratched the surface uh

01:13:23.189 --> 01:13:25.270
of where we could go and i felt like we kept

01:13:25.270 --> 01:13:27.930
it pretty high level today um we could go really

01:13:27.930 --> 01:13:29.729
really deep on a lot of these issues and i know

01:13:29.729 --> 01:13:32.270
you certainly could and you could teach me a

01:13:32.270 --> 01:13:33.649
few things along with the rest of our listeners

01:13:33.649 --> 01:13:35.449
i just really appreciate you coming by today

01:13:35.449 --> 01:13:41.130
um i hope you had fun I did. Hopefully I didn't

01:13:41.130 --> 01:13:43.449
ask you, well, I was going to ask you some embarrassing

01:13:43.449 --> 01:13:45.250
questions, but we'll leave those to next time

01:13:45.250 --> 01:13:47.789
because you'll come back, won't you? We'll see.

01:13:47.850 --> 01:13:50.069
Of course I will. We'll see how this one turns

01:13:50.069 --> 01:13:53.289
out. Yeah. No, I just say that, you know, you

01:13:53.289 --> 01:13:55.810
touched on it earlier that forest landowners,

01:13:55.989 --> 01:14:00.289
forest industry, agriculture, rural counties,

01:14:00.470 --> 01:14:03.050
in particular rural counties, but it's all counties.

01:14:04.840 --> 01:14:07.579
You know, we have a lot of common interests in

01:14:07.579 --> 01:14:10.840
finding balance. I think public policy conversations

01:14:10.840 --> 01:14:14.859
get controlled by those that don't seek the balance.

01:14:14.960 --> 01:14:18.819
I have huge respect for counties and county commissioners

01:14:18.819 --> 01:14:22.020
and county economic interests. As I told you

01:14:22.020 --> 01:14:24.800
earlier, one of my mentors in my career said,

01:14:24.979 --> 01:14:27.960
you know, the hardest job is being a county commissioner

01:14:27.960 --> 01:14:30.569
because you're... you're right with the constituency

01:14:30.569 --> 01:14:33.069
right at the ground floor. Yeah. There's no place

01:14:33.069 --> 01:14:35.010
to hide when you're a County commissioner. There's

01:14:35.010 --> 01:14:37.189
only three of you. And if you can't count to

01:14:37.189 --> 01:14:39.649
two pretty often, you're in a lot of trouble.

01:14:39.789 --> 01:14:43.069
Yeah. That's for sure. Huge respect and appreciation

01:14:43.069 --> 01:14:46.310
for the alignment that we have had. All right.

01:14:46.329 --> 01:14:48.229
Thanks. Thank you for having me, Paul. Take care.

01:14:50.000 --> 01:14:52.520
Thanks for tuning in to County Connection. Stay

01:14:52.520 --> 01:14:54.340
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