WEBVTT

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Oh, I like that. Yeah, yeah. So not aficionado,

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not nerd, but budget insider. Yeah, yeah. Doesn't

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that sound better? That does. It almost sounds

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like it could be its own podcast. Ooh. Ooh. Wasack's

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budget insider. Hosted by. Welcome back, everybody,

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to the Wasack budget insider. Welcome to County

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Connection, the official podcast of the Washington

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State Association of Counties, where we dive

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into the legislative issues shaping the future

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of our communities. From budgets to public safety,

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infrastructure to elections, we'll break down

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what's happening in Olympia and how it impacts

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counties from across the Evergreen State. Stay

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informed, stay engaged, and join us as we amplify

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the voice of Washington's 39 counties. Welcome

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back, everybody, to the County Connection podcast,

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the official podcast of the Washington State

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Association of Counties. I'm Paul Jewell, your

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host and government relations director for the

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State Association. Today is a beautiful afternoon.

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It is gorgeous outside, and I'm stuck in here

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in the studio with no less than Brian Enslow.

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Brian, how are things? You look casual today.

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I am feeling casual, and I have dressed to meet

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my mood. Not to impress. Not to impress. And

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as I was informed last time, this is a podcast

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and there is no YouTube stream. That's true.

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So no one really cares. No filming going on in

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here. You could be wearing anything. You could

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wear a clown suit and nobody would know. Although

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I'd probably tell them, let's be honest. Sometimes

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I feel like I'm wearing a clown suit. I didn't.

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That's kind of funny. That's not what I meant,

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but it is kind of funny. Well, Brian, the session

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ended on Sunday on time, somewhat predictably.

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also maybe a little surprisingly given you know

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the levels of controversy that we were dealing

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with this year and i wanted you to come in today

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so we could kind of chat about what actually

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happened in the final budgets mostly the state

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operational budget i know that you're a bit of

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a budget nerd or aficionado, depending on how

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you want to frame it. And I've been working in

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politics in Washington State for quite a few

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years. And one of your jobs previously was as

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a budget writer on staff over there. And I always

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appreciate the perspective that you bring to

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this topic. And I think this year was a particularly

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fascinating year. There were a lot of ebbs and

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flows and a lot of, you know, pulls and pushes,

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so to speak, and a lot of friction, frankly,

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in the legislature and between the legislature

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and the governor's office around the budget.

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And actually, we don't even know how that's going

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to end up. yet because the governor has not signed

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the budget yet. He's still in the evaluation

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phase, made some pretty strong statements at

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the end of the session about the things he liked

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in the budget, but also made it really clear

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that he was going to do a line by line evaluation

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and kind of make a decision at some point in

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the future. Um, am I catching everything so far

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or what am I missing? You've given me about 10

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different bullet points to like jump off on and,

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and choose one buddy. Let's go. Let's start on

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the last one real quickly. Okay. Just, just for,

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uh, and by the way, I prefer budget insider.

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Oh, I like that. So not aficionado, not. but

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budget insight. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, doesn't that

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sound better? That does. It almost sounds like,

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it almost sounds like it could be its own podcast.

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Ooh. Ooh. Wasax budget insight. Welcome back

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everybody to the Wasax budget insider. So let's

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just start quickly at the line item veto. Let's

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do it. Okay. So just. And we're doing this, right?

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This is Professor Enslow and we're doing the...

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Well, that might be a stretch, but we're going

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to have a fun conversation about budgets. Just

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quickly, the governor's veto authority with respect

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to the budget is defined as like single subject.

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Right. So in this state, the governor does not

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have what is sometimes referred to as line item

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veto. But in the budget, it kind of functions

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that way because like each... unique appropriation

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is kind of its own line right it's its own subsection

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sort of right he has section veto authority on

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a bill correct so you know how a bill is structured

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where you see section one section two section

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three he can go and say i'm gonna veto section

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three of bill such and such but he can't say

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i'm gonna I'm going to veto line four of section

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three of Bill such and such. He has to either

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eliminate the whole section or nothing. And where

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the budget is concerned, because of the way it's

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written, all those special appropriations are

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almost subsections upon themselves, right? And

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so while it's not line item authority, so to

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speak. It kind of almost is, right? It kind of

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is, but it can't go in and change a million dollars

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and strike out a zero and make it a hundred thousand

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or remove the word solely or may or shall. It's

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either veto it or leave it alone. Okay. Yeah.

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And so I just want to quickly just hit on that

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one just because there will be a lot of intrigue

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over the next roughly 20 days. And the reason

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why I say 20 days is because that's the... uh

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legal authority in which the governor has to

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review any bill that that was delivered to his

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desk um um uh with five days or fewer left in

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the session which was the budget was passed on

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the last day and all the revenue bills and so

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governor gets 20 days to make a decision and

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just another thing like the governor doesn't

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have pocket veto and what does that mean i'm

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so glad you brought that up because i was going

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to ask you about that So in some states, if you

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don't sign a bill or a piece of legislation,

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it is vetoed. That's referred to as a pocket

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veto. You keep the bill in your pocket. You don't

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take it out. You don't sign it. Right. In Washington

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state, if you don't sign a bill, it's enacted

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at the end of the 20 day period. When I was in

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high school or middle school, I had a teacher

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and I'm trying to remember who it was. It was

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either Jerry Striegel or it was. Steve, boy,

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I can't remember. If he hears this, he's going

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to be mad at me because I can't remember his

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last name. But shout out to both of those guys.

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They were our history teachers. And the way they

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described the pocket veto, at least one of them

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was essentially, he said, you know, imagine yourself,

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you're the president or you're the governor or

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whatever. You simply read the bill. You fold

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it in half. You fold it in half again. You tuck

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it in your pocket and you walk away without signing

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it. That's essentially. I'm not vetoing this,

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but I'm not signing it either. And because I've

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taken no action, it doesn't go into effect. What

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you're saying is that's not the situation here

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in Washington state. If the governor fails to

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act, he doesn't sign it, meaning he doesn't necessarily

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endorse it, but it still becomes law or still

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becomes effective. And that's true with the budget

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as well. Yes, it is. Okay. Good to know. Yeah.

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And so, you know, so that's part of the context.

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And and and I think as we made it clear, but

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if we didn't, you know, the governor has partial

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veto authority. Right. And it gets to that single

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subject. So you can kind of pick and choose and

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you don't it's not a it's not a straight binary

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choice between whether I like this policy or

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not or whether I like this budget or not. You

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can you can kind of go through and make kind

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of item by item decisions. So Steve Watson was

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his name, by the way, got a got a cold. Full

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circle. Mr. Watson, I apologize for forgetting

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your name originally. Excuse me. Tenino, baby.

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Tenino. High school faculty of 1994. 1992. They

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might have still been there in 94, but I wasn't.

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We have established that Paul is exactly one

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year older than I am. Yeah, one year older. Exactly.

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So that's just some sort of context of like the

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mechanical things that are going to happen. And

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so the governor's policy staff, the governor's

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budget staff is starting to go through and comb

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through those budgets and make decisions. I am

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hearing, you know, some disparate opinions and

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I, and I want to, and, and, and before I want

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to get back to where you talked about just kind

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of like the atmosphere and the working relationships.

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And I think, you know, I think we've talked a

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lot about this and I won't spend too much time,

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but you know, this, this legislature and this

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executive we're not walking hand in hand through

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the various budget process. There was you know,

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tension and disagreements about um resources

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and priorities yeah and and this isn't breaking

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news i mean this has been widely reported i even

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read an article today in the seattle times you

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know calling um governor ferguson kind of a mystery

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man uh because the legislature just didn't know

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exactly what he wanted and while he did help

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shape the budget he did it in a way that was

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in sometimes uh not exactly clearly Sometimes

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by not exactly clearly communicating what he

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wanted, but more what he wasn't in favor of.

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I'm going to push back. And this is my, we've

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talked about this, my least desirable attractive

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trait is the pedantic nature of me. That's not

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what I thought you were going to say when I agreed

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with you for a second. Oh, he's like, yeah. Yeah,

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I totally agree with that, Brian. And I'm going

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to parse. I don't think the governor shaped the

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budget. Oh, interesting. I think the governor

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shaped the revenue package. And so on numerous

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occasions, the governor... Well, he certainly

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had some influence on the $100 million that I'm

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sure you're going to get to for law enforcement,

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right? And what else? Well... And I'm not trying

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to put you on the spot. You mean as far as the

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spending priorities? So he got his $100 million

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and he got a revenue package that met his...

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what we think was his criteria. Well, I think

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the rainy day fund was something that he made

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some demands about that they not, you know, dip

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into. So I think, you know, that. the fact that

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there was fiscal constraint around that was something

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that he certainly had some influence on. Sure.

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And we'll talk more about that because that is

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a part of this budget story. But I think the

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legislature, there's evidence to suggest that

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the legislature would have made that decision

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independently. But I guess what I would say,

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and this is one of the observations I want to

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share, is it was apparent to me that... that

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the historic level of communication and involvement

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of the governor's budget shop, which is called

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the Office of Financial Management, or OFM for

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short, they weren't involved. They weren't in

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the room at the end. And this budget, the actual

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conference document, was new information. to

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agency directors and high -level OFM staff the

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same time we got it, or pretty similar. So that's

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pretty interesting because I'd not heard that.

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And in fact, in the article that I read, like

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I said just today, and some of the others, the

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legislature, both the Senate and the House at

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different times, had commended the budget staff,

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specifically the leader of OFM, the director

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of OFM, and others. had commended their level

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of involvement, their willingness to collaborate,

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et cetera. It was, I think, their confusion with

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what the boss, as far as the governor, what their

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boss really wanted that was creating some of

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the communication gaps. Sure. At least that's

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what was reported. You're saying that at the

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end, OFM staff wasn't even part of the final

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conference? I wasn't in the room. Okay. But what

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I would say is, In communications I had with

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policy staff and other communications I heard

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from within the lobbying community was there

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was a lot of agency directors and other high

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position people basically asking lobbyists what

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was going to be in the budget. Wow. And just

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to be very clear, the director of OFM. That's

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unusual. Katie Chapman See. It's an incredible

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individual. And before accepting. The post at

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OFM with this new administration was kind of

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the head budget person for the House Democratic

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Caucus. And so has great relationships with the

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legislature. So it does not surprise me at all

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that the OFM director was. involved and engaged

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and had input into the process and decision.

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That doesn't surprise me. And that makes sense

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to me given their relationships. But I do think

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that the executive broadly, and like I said,

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we've talked about this. What was the theme music

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we have or the catchphrase? Idle speculation.

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Yeah. Yeah. So I am engaging in some speculation

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here. Sure, of course. It appears to me that

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the governor was not as involved in the final

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negotiations and final shaping of the actual

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expenditure side than maybe historically. Interesting.

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Those conference committees and those negotiations

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are held pretty... tightly to the vest it's pretty

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hard for us to know exactly what happened even

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trying to do a after action debrief is a real

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challenge nobody people are pretty tight -lipped

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so um obviously a lot of what we're talking about

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is speculation but that's an interesting perspective

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and uh it'll be interesting to see how things

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change through this administration as time goes

00:13:51.889 --> 00:13:55.850
by, you know, there were definitely hiccups,

00:13:55.850 --> 00:13:59.029
you know, in the transition from the Gregoire

00:13:59.029 --> 00:14:00.649
administration to the Inslee administration.

00:14:01.129 --> 00:14:03.110
And some of those things got smoothed out. Some

00:14:03.110 --> 00:14:05.730
of those things didn't change. Right. It'll be

00:14:05.730 --> 00:14:09.259
interesting to see. how things operate here,

00:14:09.360 --> 00:14:12.039
if this was, you know, first year, just kind

00:14:12.039 --> 00:14:13.840
of not knowing how to navigate the landscape

00:14:13.840 --> 00:14:17.659
or if it was a planned kind of management style.

00:14:18.340 --> 00:14:21.120
And we'll see more of that or if it'll be a little

00:14:21.120 --> 00:14:23.500
easier in future years. I don't know. I don't

00:14:23.500 --> 00:14:28.840
know. It is interesting. There's in many ways,

00:14:28.879 --> 00:14:32.159
this governor. is more like Governor Gregoire

00:14:32.159 --> 00:14:35.299
in the sense that has strong opinions about just

00:14:35.299 --> 00:14:40.519
kind of the operations of the state as an executive.

00:14:41.519 --> 00:14:43.600
Yeah, and Governor Inslee was definitely less

00:14:43.600 --> 00:14:45.740
inclined to get involved in those discussions.

00:14:46.019 --> 00:14:51.559
I think, right, very driven on specific policy

00:14:51.559 --> 00:14:55.600
issues and kind of some kind of big picture like

00:14:55.600 --> 00:14:59.330
ideological. Right. But maybe not necessarily

00:14:59.330 --> 00:15:06.029
as deeply invested in kind of the just mechanics

00:15:06.029 --> 00:15:09.190
and X's and O's of running a state. I was going

00:15:09.190 --> 00:15:11.789
to say the operational machinations of how one

00:15:11.789 --> 00:15:14.629
thing, you know, how things get from conception

00:15:14.629 --> 00:15:17.750
to, you know, implementation. And that might

00:15:17.750 --> 00:15:22.750
just be, you know, in many ways, Governor Ferguson's

00:15:22.750 --> 00:15:28.029
background is more similar. To Governor Gregoire's

00:15:28.029 --> 00:15:34.690
background, they both were attorney general and

00:15:34.690 --> 00:15:37.230
they both ran independently elected state offices

00:15:37.230 --> 00:15:41.210
and agencies and had other kind of governmental

00:15:41.210 --> 00:15:43.470
jobs versus being a congressman. Right. Yeah.

00:15:43.549 --> 00:15:45.629
Very different. Very different backgrounds for

00:15:45.629 --> 00:15:49.929
sure. Yeah. Okay. Well, that was one or two of

00:15:49.929 --> 00:15:52.309
the big points that I threw out at the beginning.

00:15:52.389 --> 00:15:54.889
Where would you like to go now? You want to talk

00:15:54.889 --> 00:15:56.909
about revenue? And how that whole package shaped

00:15:56.909 --> 00:16:00.509
up? Well, yeah. I mean, we talked a little bit

00:16:00.509 --> 00:16:04.230
about this, right? But I think I'm going to put

00:16:04.230 --> 00:16:08.009
you on spot. It doesn't really work in a podcast,

00:16:08.190 --> 00:16:11.070
you know, because we can just edit it. No. So

00:16:11.070 --> 00:16:18.789
this conference budget has challenges. And there

00:16:18.789 --> 00:16:22.230
are, you know, some... And we'll get into the

00:16:22.230 --> 00:16:24.950
details. And I just want to acknowledge that

00:16:24.950 --> 00:16:28.129
there are reductions in service levels. There's

00:16:28.129 --> 00:16:32.009
some issues from our courts. There's a lot of

00:16:32.009 --> 00:16:40.370
things that are problematic and have impacts

00:16:40.370 --> 00:16:43.830
on real people and real services. For sure. But

00:16:43.830 --> 00:16:48.730
it's also not that bad. Right. I agree. You had

00:16:48.730 --> 00:16:51.700
to expect cuts. Yes. Right. In a year like this

00:16:51.700 --> 00:16:54.779
where they walk in saying from the very beginning,

00:16:54.919 --> 00:16:56.799
you know, anywhere from eight to twelve billion

00:16:56.799 --> 00:16:59.740
dollars as far as the four year budget outlook

00:16:59.740 --> 00:17:02.179
for a deficit in these just a state operating

00:17:02.179 --> 00:17:04.720
budget. And then you get another revenue forecast.

00:17:05.000 --> 00:17:08.259
And now the governor is saying 16 billion. Right.

00:17:08.380 --> 00:17:11.039
And other people are saying anywhere from 10

00:17:11.039 --> 00:17:13.319
to 16 billion. And who knows what the exact answer

00:17:13.319 --> 00:17:15.579
was going to be. But he was saying as much as

00:17:15.579 --> 00:17:19.109
16 billion, you know, to come out. of a budget

00:17:19.109 --> 00:17:22.150
year like that, not expecting some cuts, I think

00:17:22.150 --> 00:17:25.549
is completely naive, right? Totally unrealistic,

00:17:25.789 --> 00:17:30.710
totally unacknowledging of the situation that

00:17:30.710 --> 00:17:33.470
you're in, like, you know, literally ostrich

00:17:33.470 --> 00:17:36.769
with your head buried in the sand sort of, you

00:17:36.769 --> 00:17:40.150
know, perspective or business model. You had

00:17:40.150 --> 00:17:42.890
to expect cuts. They were talking about revenue.

00:17:43.480 --> 00:17:45.279
And they were talking about big revenue for a

00:17:45.279 --> 00:17:48.339
while in the range of $20 -some billion. That

00:17:48.339 --> 00:17:51.319
got knocked down to about $12 billion. It ended

00:17:51.319 --> 00:17:54.700
up being about $4 billion, right? So that's a

00:17:54.700 --> 00:17:58.059
big difference and a big drop. And $4 billion

00:17:58.059 --> 00:18:01.160
in new revenue is fine. Would they have $4 or

00:18:01.160 --> 00:18:05.859
$6 billion in additional cuts? You have to expect

00:18:05.859 --> 00:18:07.799
that kind of thing in a budget year like this.

00:18:08.599 --> 00:18:10.779
I agree with you. I don't think it was that bad.

00:18:10.819 --> 00:18:14.160
Certainly not for counties. Yeah. And you just

00:18:14.160 --> 00:18:15.799
threw out a whole bunch of numbers and I'm going

00:18:15.799 --> 00:18:18.680
to not clean them up, but I'm going to establish

00:18:18.680 --> 00:18:20.319
some baselines because I'm going to refer back

00:18:20.319 --> 00:18:24.740
to these. So the initial Senate budget had a

00:18:24.740 --> 00:18:29.339
revenue package just under 17 billion and the

00:18:29.339 --> 00:18:33.480
house was right around 15. Okay. And that's over

00:18:33.480 --> 00:18:35.740
four years. And I think, and that's where I think.

00:18:36.859 --> 00:18:40.380
Sure. What I want. And then the conference budget,

00:18:40.539 --> 00:18:42.440
the budget that was passed by the legislature,

00:18:42.660 --> 00:18:46.839
is $8 billion over four years. Right. Over four

00:18:46.839 --> 00:18:49.000
years. Okay. And here's the other thing I want.

00:18:49.160 --> 00:18:52.599
So, and again, I would see - In fact, it's a

00:18:52.599 --> 00:18:54.559
little over eight. It's almost nine over four

00:18:54.559 --> 00:18:57.660
years. I'm rolling the dice here, Paul. Is the

00:18:57.660 --> 00:18:59.359
budget - I love it when you're rolling the dice.

00:18:59.359 --> 00:19:01.839
In your opinion, the conference budget - Give

00:19:01.839 --> 00:19:04.599
me two sixes. Better. I'll take two fives. Is

00:19:04.599 --> 00:19:07.450
it better - than the budgets that they built

00:19:07.450 --> 00:19:11.829
on like $16 billion. I mean, it depends. Yeah,

00:19:11.950 --> 00:19:14.250
I mean, it depends. It definitely depends. It

00:19:14.250 --> 00:19:18.089
depends kind of where your priorities are, what

00:19:18.089 --> 00:19:20.970
your perspective is. One of the things I always

00:19:20.970 --> 00:19:23.789
talk to about county commissioners, especially

00:19:23.789 --> 00:19:25.950
new county commissioners, is if they really want

00:19:25.950 --> 00:19:29.190
to make a difference in the early parts of their

00:19:29.190 --> 00:19:31.950
terms, their early years serving, the thing they

00:19:31.950 --> 00:19:33.569
need to pay the most attention to is their budget.

00:19:34.099 --> 00:19:35.900
It's the most important policy document that

00:19:35.900 --> 00:19:38.319
they have. And the same thing is true for the

00:19:38.319 --> 00:19:41.519
state. I don't see it any other way. Where you

00:19:41.519 --> 00:19:45.359
spend your money as a legislator is what is important

00:19:45.359 --> 00:19:50.680
to you. And this budget, any budget, really lays

00:19:50.680 --> 00:19:52.700
out the policy for the next two years for the

00:19:52.700 --> 00:19:53.940
state because that's where they're going to spend

00:19:53.940 --> 00:19:57.019
their money. So I think it really depends on

00:19:57.019 --> 00:20:00.099
what you wanted and what you were thinking about.

00:20:00.240 --> 00:20:02.779
There were some things that were better for us.

00:20:03.450 --> 00:20:08.029
In those budgets, those earlier budgets that

00:20:08.029 --> 00:20:11.869
had larger revenue packages, for sure, there

00:20:11.869 --> 00:20:13.769
was additional funding for different services

00:20:13.769 --> 00:20:19.289
and a few other things. I think there were definitely

00:20:19.289 --> 00:20:21.670
some issues with some of those budgets, some

00:20:21.670 --> 00:20:23.670
of the durability and sustainability of those

00:20:23.670 --> 00:20:25.230
revenue sources and what they were predicting

00:20:25.230 --> 00:20:26.670
and whether they were actually going to come

00:20:26.670 --> 00:20:31.130
to fruition. whether the rug would have been

00:20:31.130 --> 00:20:34.609
jerked out from under them via lawsuit or referendum

00:20:34.609 --> 00:20:37.890
or citizen's initiative. All those sorts of risks

00:20:37.890 --> 00:20:43.029
were there. So I think it really depends on how

00:20:43.029 --> 00:20:47.769
you look at it overall. I would say we're not

00:20:47.769 --> 00:20:51.029
dissatisfied with what came out at the end and,

00:20:51.109 --> 00:20:55.309
in fact, quite pleased. You and I were here during

00:20:55.309 --> 00:20:59.009
the Great Recession. Yes. And counties and others

00:20:59.009 --> 00:21:03.869
were targets. I mean, just flat. There's no other

00:21:03.869 --> 00:21:08.349
way to say it. They literally looked us in the

00:21:08.349 --> 00:21:11.509
face on more than one occasion during those years

00:21:11.509 --> 00:21:14.849
and said, you are going to be very upset after

00:21:14.849 --> 00:21:17.470
this session because I am going to take your

00:21:17.470 --> 00:21:21.250
revenue because we have shortfalls and we don't

00:21:21.250 --> 00:21:25.099
care about you as much as we care about us. That's

00:21:25.099 --> 00:21:27.640
I mean, those were not exactly those words. Right.

00:21:27.720 --> 00:21:29.440
But I mean, those were the messages that were

00:21:29.440 --> 00:21:32.079
being conveyed was like you local governments.

00:21:32.160 --> 00:21:34.000
You're going to have to figure it out your own

00:21:34.000 --> 00:21:35.880
way because we're taking the money that we normally

00:21:35.880 --> 00:21:40.700
give you. These budgets are different. And I

00:21:40.700 --> 00:21:45.000
would say that the potential deficits that they're

00:21:45.000 --> 00:21:48.160
facing are much larger than they were back then.

00:21:48.700 --> 00:21:51.460
Now, granted, they're spending a lot more than

00:21:51.460 --> 00:21:55.380
they did back then. The programs, the diversity

00:21:55.380 --> 00:21:58.619
of spending programs that they have are much

00:21:58.619 --> 00:22:01.619
greater than they had back then. And it wasn't

00:22:01.619 --> 00:22:03.859
even that long ago, although it was, Jesus, it

00:22:03.859 --> 00:22:06.200
was like almost 20 years ago. It was longer than

00:22:06.200 --> 00:22:07.859
you'd like to think. Yeah, longer than we'd like

00:22:07.859 --> 00:22:13.279
to think. But the difference is, the way I see

00:22:13.279 --> 00:22:15.269
it, There's a lot more respect shown in these

00:22:15.269 --> 00:22:18.309
budgets for the work that their partners, that

00:22:18.309 --> 00:22:20.809
the legislature's partners do, both on a government

00:22:20.809 --> 00:22:23.230
and non -governmental level, and a recognition

00:22:23.230 --> 00:22:25.829
of how important that funding is for the implementation

00:22:25.829 --> 00:22:29.190
of the programs that the legislature on a statewide

00:22:29.190 --> 00:22:33.970
level wants to see. And they didn't make those

00:22:33.970 --> 00:22:38.549
same level of cuts in those programs, which was...

00:22:38.730 --> 00:22:43.309
refreshing to us. And something that we're, we're

00:22:43.309 --> 00:22:46.630
very thankful for and, and, you know, recognize

00:22:46.630 --> 00:22:52.029
very clearly because in the past, you know, we

00:22:52.029 --> 00:22:54.950
would have expected much more severe cuts that

00:22:54.950 --> 00:22:58.869
hurt programs that we do much more severely.

00:22:58.970 --> 00:23:02.470
Well, you know, I think it's now Friday, Paul.

00:23:02.930 --> 00:23:06.289
It's not, it's still Thursday. Are you saying

00:23:06.289 --> 00:23:12.559
that was boring? So you didn't take my bait exactly,

00:23:12.759 --> 00:23:16.259
but I think at the very least... I took your

00:23:16.259 --> 00:23:18.539
bait and gave it back to you. At the very least,

00:23:18.640 --> 00:23:23.839
when we saw what was going to happen, where we

00:23:23.839 --> 00:23:25.799
saw that the governor was not going to be comfortable

00:23:25.799 --> 00:23:28.359
with the revenue of $16 billion... I'm just distracted

00:23:28.359 --> 00:23:33.359
by the fact you called me boring. I did not say

00:23:33.359 --> 00:23:35.940
you were boring. I just simply suggested that

00:23:35.940 --> 00:23:41.960
maybe it was a... A long answer. Too long winded.

00:23:41.960 --> 00:23:44.900
All right. Just ask me yes or no questions. I

00:23:44.900 --> 00:23:49.380
think he's worried that I was perhaps too provocative

00:23:49.380 --> 00:23:51.720
in suggesting what I suggested about the end

00:23:51.720 --> 00:23:54.420
of the negotiations. And so he was afraid to

00:23:54.420 --> 00:23:57.779
say anything. No, no, no. Okay. But will you

00:23:57.779 --> 00:24:00.119
at least agree that you thought the budgets were

00:24:00.119 --> 00:24:02.319
going to be worse when they only had $8 billion

00:24:02.319 --> 00:24:04.450
to play with? I thought they were going to be

00:24:04.450 --> 00:24:06.569
tougher on local governments. Yeah. Yeah. And

00:24:06.569 --> 00:24:09.069
from my perspective, that would be worse. Yeah.

00:24:09.089 --> 00:24:12.289
Right. And I'm setting aside revenue, and I don't

00:24:12.289 --> 00:24:15.009
know if we want to, you know, there'd have to

00:24:15.009 --> 00:24:16.650
be some conversation about it. And the truth

00:24:16.650 --> 00:24:19.269
is, Brian, we didn't know how much revenue they

00:24:19.269 --> 00:24:21.349
were playing with at the end. We knew that they'd

00:24:21.349 --> 00:24:23.230
made a decision, but until the budget came out,

00:24:23.269 --> 00:24:25.029
we didn't know it was $8 billion over four years

00:24:25.029 --> 00:24:27.609
or $4 billion over two. It could have been $2

00:24:27.609 --> 00:24:29.369
billion. It could have been $12. We didn't know.

00:24:29.930 --> 00:24:33.390
And so I think, so it's still a mystery to me,

00:24:33.509 --> 00:24:36.190
a mystery. I love a good mystery. How they did

00:24:36.190 --> 00:24:40.029
it, like how they did it. And, and Paul, do you

00:24:40.029 --> 00:24:43.089
have a famous, a favorite like mathematician?

00:24:43.690 --> 00:24:48.390
Are you, are you like a favorite? Yeah. Like,

00:24:48.430 --> 00:24:50.690
are you like a, are you like a Newtonian guy?

00:24:51.069 --> 00:24:54.970
Do you have like a soccer style scarf of Euclid?

00:24:54.970 --> 00:24:59.500
Like Euclidean geometry? No, no. It's all a means

00:24:59.500 --> 00:25:03.660
to an end for me. Archimedes, maybe? My favorite

00:25:03.660 --> 00:25:05.799
mathematician is this calculator on my phone,

00:25:06.039 --> 00:25:10.980
yeah. So given the baseline... Well, you can't

00:25:10.980 --> 00:25:12.960
ask that question without answering it yourself.

00:25:13.099 --> 00:25:15.220
Do you have a favorite mathematician? Oh, yeah,

00:25:15.640 --> 00:25:18.180
Euclid. Oh, of course, yeah. What was I thinking?

00:25:18.220 --> 00:25:25.380
I'm so stupid, yeah. Troglodyte here. Yeah. You

00:25:25.380 --> 00:25:27.940
got his picture on your wall? So - Giant poster,

00:25:28.039 --> 00:25:31.700
huh? So - You're so old, you probably have an

00:25:31.700 --> 00:25:36.859
autograph copy. So Paul, so I'll - A budget,

00:25:36.940 --> 00:25:40.980
right, has a couple very basic components. Like

00:25:40.980 --> 00:25:43.740
how much money comes in. Yep. How much money

00:25:43.740 --> 00:25:45.799
you spend. We call those revenues and expenses.

00:25:46.160 --> 00:25:48.779
And then the difference. Yeah. Okay. So in this

00:25:48.779 --> 00:25:51.819
case, we have revenue, expenditures, and then

00:25:51.819 --> 00:25:54.720
ending fund balance. Right. Okay. Profit or loss.

00:25:55.019 --> 00:25:58.619
What? I have in front of me for all those people

00:25:58.619 --> 00:26:01.220
watching live on the YouTube stream. So that'd

00:26:01.220 --> 00:26:04.839
be zero. Is what is the four year outlook. Okay.

00:26:04.900 --> 00:26:07.980
And a very rudimentary level. This tells you

00:26:07.980 --> 00:26:10.380
those three things. Right. And here's why it's

00:26:10.380 --> 00:26:13.619
a mystery to me is because the proposed expenditures

00:26:13.619 --> 00:26:17.819
are about the same. So this is the enacted one.

00:26:17.940 --> 00:26:20.960
This is the Senate proposal. This is a budget.

00:26:21.180 --> 00:26:24.099
The Senate proposal was based on $16 billion

00:26:24.099 --> 00:26:28.680
in new revenue. this was on eight okay and the

00:26:28.680 --> 00:26:31.680
the expenditures for the respective bienniums

00:26:31.680 --> 00:26:34.099
are about the same there's the there's a billion

00:26:34.099 --> 00:26:39.380
dollar difference in um in the 27 29 so there's

00:26:39.380 --> 00:26:42.039
a difference of a billion okay the ending fund

00:26:42.039 --> 00:26:45.160
balances right so it should add up right you

00:26:45.160 --> 00:26:47.880
should you know the ending fund balances are

00:26:47.880 --> 00:26:52.700
four billion off okay so so that's five i have

00:26:53.119 --> 00:26:57.859
A $5 billion difference between what was enacted

00:26:57.859 --> 00:27:01.420
versus what was initially proposed. I should

00:27:01.420 --> 00:27:04.680
have an $8 billion difference. And I can't figure

00:27:04.680 --> 00:27:08.339
out why, Paul. And I can't figure out how. And

00:27:08.339 --> 00:27:10.380
so that's why this budget is a mystery to me.

00:27:10.460 --> 00:27:14.980
I can't figure out how it's arguably as good

00:27:14.980 --> 00:27:18.039
or not worse. We'll use maybe your words. Not

00:27:18.039 --> 00:27:20.119
necessarily worse than the initial budgets they

00:27:20.119 --> 00:27:23.440
proposed. And I can't figure out. Like, I can't

00:27:23.440 --> 00:27:27.900
figure out how. And, you know, as a self -proclaimed

00:27:27.900 --> 00:27:33.099
budget insider, this beguiles me to no end. So

00:27:33.099 --> 00:27:36.279
what you're saying is the proposal from the Senate

00:27:36.279 --> 00:27:39.740
that was based on $16 billion in new revenue,

00:27:39.839 --> 00:27:42.000
from a spending perspective, is about the same.

00:27:42.079 --> 00:27:47.019
But the revenues are lower by about half as far

00:27:47.019 --> 00:27:49.309
as new revenue. And then the ending fund balances

00:27:49.309 --> 00:27:52.069
are off a little bit, which explains some of

00:27:52.069 --> 00:27:54.809
it, but not all of it. Yes. Okay. Could it be

00:27:54.809 --> 00:27:58.490
that there are just internal savings and reappropriations

00:27:58.490 --> 00:28:01.700
to new line items? And how much of that is there?

00:28:01.880 --> 00:28:04.920
There's all sorts of things we as the public

00:28:04.920 --> 00:28:07.319
can't see. So there's got to be an explanation.

00:28:07.680 --> 00:28:10.420
Yeah. And whether it's buried in a spreadsheet

00:28:10.420 --> 00:28:13.640
or it's a transfer or whether it's some sort

00:28:13.640 --> 00:28:16.079
of difference in assumption about what needs

00:28:16.079 --> 00:28:18.779
to be funded moving forward. But somehow they

00:28:18.779 --> 00:28:21.740
constructed a budget that spent about the same

00:28:21.740 --> 00:28:25.920
amount of money in both biennium and wasn't necessarily

00:28:25.920 --> 00:28:29.859
worse than the previous budget. with half the

00:28:29.859 --> 00:28:32.039
amount of new resources. And like I said, you

00:28:32.039 --> 00:28:35.339
do see a difference in ending fund balance. Right,

00:28:35.339 --> 00:28:36.980
which you would expect to. But it doesn't account

00:28:36.980 --> 00:28:39.059
for the whole difference. And there's no money

00:28:39.059 --> 00:28:41.000
out of the rainy day fund. Which would be on

00:28:41.000 --> 00:28:43.079
the revenue side, if it were. So you would see

00:28:43.079 --> 00:28:45.559
it. Yeah. That is a bit of a mystery. It's a

00:28:45.559 --> 00:28:48.059
mystery. It's a mystery to me. Why'd you have

00:28:48.059 --> 00:28:50.599
to bring this up right now on a podcast? Because.

00:28:50.720 --> 00:28:52.819
How am I supposed to figure this out? You can't

00:28:52.819 --> 00:28:55.359
figure this out. I mean, if you don't have a

00:28:55.359 --> 00:28:57.740
favorite mathematician, Paul, I don't like your

00:28:57.740 --> 00:28:59.859
chances of figuring this out. You don't have

00:28:59.859 --> 00:29:01.940
to have a favorite mathematician just to understand

00:29:01.940 --> 00:29:04.420
basic principles of accounting. Okay. That's

00:29:04.420 --> 00:29:08.900
probably true. That is very true. That's probably

00:29:08.900 --> 00:29:12.759
true. So that's something I want to share because

00:29:12.759 --> 00:29:16.839
when we start going into the details, as we mentioned,

00:29:17.019 --> 00:29:24.019
there are some gaps in services and in funding

00:29:24.019 --> 00:29:29.670
that are very important. the, you know, the,

00:29:29.769 --> 00:29:32.130
you know, they cut the funding for like drug

00:29:32.130 --> 00:29:34.130
task forces and things like that. And like I

00:29:34.130 --> 00:29:36.109
said, we can go item by item and there's definitely

00:29:36.109 --> 00:29:40.710
some cases where we're going to experience, you

00:29:40.710 --> 00:29:44.170
know, a loss in service, loss of revenue at the

00:29:44.170 --> 00:29:48.190
local level. But, but it wasn't as bad. as we

00:29:48.190 --> 00:29:50.970
thought, and it didn't get worse from when we

00:29:50.970 --> 00:29:53.430
thought we had $16 billion to play with to when

00:29:53.430 --> 00:29:55.329
we only had eight. Well, there were a few things

00:29:55.329 --> 00:29:57.930
that got worse. You know, for instance, the final

00:29:57.930 --> 00:30:00.319
budget cut. foundational public health services

00:30:00.319 --> 00:30:02.900
by about 40 million dollars and that was worse

00:30:02.900 --> 00:30:05.559
yeah uh than we had originally thought right

00:30:05.559 --> 00:30:08.140
so there were some things that got worse um you

00:30:08.140 --> 00:30:09.539
know there's other things that are popping into

00:30:09.539 --> 00:30:11.839
my brain that have to do with the capital budget

00:30:11.839 --> 00:30:13.500
but of course that's completely different and

00:30:13.500 --> 00:30:16.559
completely dependent yeah um on what happens

00:30:16.559 --> 00:30:18.759
public works assistance account yeah but it moved

00:30:18.759 --> 00:30:21.819
to the house version yeah um which was an extra

00:30:21.819 --> 00:30:24.859
hundred million dollars right so i think it was

00:30:24.859 --> 00:30:28.059
originally you know close to 200 million in the

00:30:28.200 --> 00:30:30.539
Senate, $288 million in the House, and the House

00:30:30.539 --> 00:30:33.400
version is what prevailed. So they moved $288

00:30:33.400 --> 00:30:36.619
million. But that doesn't explain an $8 billion

00:30:36.619 --> 00:30:40.099
difference, right? No. And I don't know if this

00:30:40.099 --> 00:30:42.180
is the podcast for it, but I think the House

00:30:42.180 --> 00:30:46.980
methodology of transferring revenue for the biennium

00:30:46.980 --> 00:30:51.880
versus permanently taking the revenue streams

00:30:51.880 --> 00:30:53.660
from the Public Works Assistance Account and

00:30:53.660 --> 00:30:57.079
dedicating it to... Anyhow, that might be a topic

00:30:57.079 --> 00:31:00.359
for another day. Obviously, a highly controversial

00:31:00.359 --> 00:31:03.980
proposal that did not move forward. It was fairly

00:31:03.980 --> 00:31:07.119
short -lived, I would say, but did cause a lot

00:31:07.119 --> 00:31:12.720
of angst among stakeholders up at the Hill and

00:31:12.720 --> 00:31:15.680
really everywhere. But that ended up not being

00:31:15.680 --> 00:31:17.700
in the final budget. Let's talk about some of

00:31:17.700 --> 00:31:20.039
the details. I mean, obviously, the mystery is

00:31:20.039 --> 00:31:24.720
there, which is intriguing. I apologize. I've

00:31:24.720 --> 00:31:26.539
definitely rattled you a little bit. Well, a

00:31:26.539 --> 00:31:30.279
little, especially since now, I don't think we're

00:31:30.279 --> 00:31:34.519
going to solve it on this podcast. No. So, yeah,

00:31:34.640 --> 00:31:36.299
I'm going to have to go digging and see if I

00:31:36.299 --> 00:31:38.960
can figure it out. See, what I've done is I've

00:31:38.960 --> 00:31:41.980
blended this podcast, a political podcast, with

00:31:41.980 --> 00:31:45.599
now a true crime podcast. Well, maybe a math

00:31:45.599 --> 00:31:49.309
podcast. I don't know if it's true crime. There's

00:31:49.309 --> 00:31:51.109
no Agatha Christie happening. But there is a

00:31:51.109 --> 00:31:53.269
mystery. There's a little bit of a mystery. But

00:31:53.269 --> 00:31:56.049
the nice thing about math is math is only a mystery

00:31:56.049 --> 00:31:57.930
until you figure it out. And then it's no longer

00:31:57.930 --> 00:32:00.500
a mystery because math is math. Yeah. Right.

00:32:00.599 --> 00:32:03.680
It's the only pure language of truth. I think

00:32:03.680 --> 00:32:06.740
anywhere, maybe anywhere, at least on this planet.

00:32:06.859 --> 00:32:09.380
Counter Mark Twain, three kinds of lies, lies,

00:32:09.480 --> 00:32:12.700
darn lies and statistics. Yeah. Statistics aren't

00:32:12.700 --> 00:32:15.680
the same as pure math. They're just a manipulation

00:32:15.680 --> 00:32:18.640
of math to try to make a point. You know what?

00:32:18.680 --> 00:32:22.720
Let's let's let's continue. Let's get into some

00:32:22.720 --> 00:32:25.380
of the details. You know, some of the highlights

00:32:25.380 --> 00:32:28.569
of the budget. All of the state -shared revenues

00:32:28.569 --> 00:32:30.650
that counties depend on on a regular basis, whether

00:32:30.650 --> 00:32:33.630
it was liquor profits or liquor taxes, whether

00:32:33.630 --> 00:32:38.950
it was the county assistance and the county justice

00:32:38.950 --> 00:32:43.549
fund, cannabis or streamlined sales tax, all

00:32:43.549 --> 00:32:47.250
of those funds were maintained at current levels.

00:32:47.490 --> 00:32:50.269
Not a single drop of that money was touched.

00:32:50.529 --> 00:32:52.609
Some of the other pass -through funds that have

00:32:52.609 --> 00:32:55.349
been targets in the past, like local solid waste

00:32:55.349 --> 00:32:58.440
financial assistance, You know, that one was

00:32:58.440 --> 00:33:00.640
cut 60 % during the Great Recession. It took

00:33:00.640 --> 00:33:04.240
more than 10 years to get that money back. That

00:33:04.240 --> 00:33:08.299
was maintained in the budget. FPHS, which we've

00:33:08.299 --> 00:33:11.019
seen huge gains on over the last several years,

00:33:11.160 --> 00:33:14.160
was cut by about $40 million, but that is a fairly

00:33:14.160 --> 00:33:16.720
small percentage of the increases that we've

00:33:16.720 --> 00:33:21.259
seen since that whole effort around foundational

00:33:21.259 --> 00:33:23.980
public health services started. Predictably,

00:33:24.000 --> 00:33:26.690
the Public Works Assistance Account, money was

00:33:26.690 --> 00:33:31.470
swept and transferred um unfortunately that is

00:33:31.470 --> 00:33:33.970
kind of a normal thing for the legislature to

00:33:33.970 --> 00:33:37.849
do during you know different fiscal it's definitely

00:33:37.849 --> 00:33:41.750
looked at as a i don't want i don't want to use

00:33:42.700 --> 00:33:47.240
It's definitely a source of revenue that the

00:33:47.240 --> 00:33:50.619
legislature feels is fairly fungible. Yeah. And

00:33:50.619 --> 00:33:55.059
so we expected some level of transfer from that

00:33:55.059 --> 00:33:58.460
account, $288 million. is a lot but then they

00:33:58.460 --> 00:34:01.359
turned around and backfilled like another 350

00:34:01.359 --> 00:34:05.279
million or something like that in the um capital

00:34:05.279 --> 00:34:08.219
budget uh for new appropriations for public works

00:34:08.219 --> 00:34:12.179
assistance uh projects so you know that that

00:34:12.179 --> 00:34:15.500
almost kind of equaled itself out uh not to the

00:34:15.500 --> 00:34:18.539
same level that we were hoping for uh but at

00:34:18.539 --> 00:34:20.699
a reasonable i mean it was a reasonable compromise

00:34:20.699 --> 00:34:24.989
i thought it is it's And I think why it's important

00:34:24.989 --> 00:34:27.750
that the methodology was ultimately the house

00:34:27.750 --> 00:34:31.550
that prevailed is it's a one time because backfilling

00:34:31.550 --> 00:34:35.150
general obligation bonds to then - It's a little

00:34:35.150 --> 00:34:38.469
bit of an eyebrow raiser. The math of taking

00:34:38.469 --> 00:34:42.769
money that you get to 4 % to 5 % and then sending

00:34:42.769 --> 00:34:48.289
it out in loans that are at 1%. Right. It points

00:34:48.289 --> 00:34:50.940
to something we talked about this year. that

00:34:50.940 --> 00:34:54.599
they were debt capacity rich and cash poor. Yeah,

00:34:54.659 --> 00:34:56.739
and just for folks who maybe aren't that familiar

00:34:56.739 --> 00:34:58.519
with the Public Works Assistance account, it

00:34:58.519 --> 00:35:00.500
has dedicated funding that comes into it every

00:35:00.500 --> 00:35:03.219
year. Some of that is from utility taxes, a major

00:35:03.219 --> 00:35:07.280
fund. a funder of the public works assistance

00:35:07.280 --> 00:35:10.619
account is the solid waste tax right so there's

00:35:10.619 --> 00:35:12.500
these different revenue streams that come in

00:35:12.500 --> 00:35:15.579
and then essentially the public works board takes

00:35:15.579 --> 00:35:18.699
applications there are certain qualifications

00:35:18.699 --> 00:35:23.599
and local jurisdictions can get loans at one

00:35:23.599 --> 00:35:27.579
percent and even some mixture of loans and grants,

00:35:27.599 --> 00:35:30.659
so money they don't have to pay back, to do infrastructure

00:35:30.659 --> 00:35:36.420
projects. It's a super low -cost, really valuable

00:35:36.420 --> 00:35:40.159
program for public works projects in Washington

00:35:40.159 --> 00:35:43.099
state. It's been ongoing for a long time. Unfortunately,

00:35:43.360 --> 00:35:47.420
it oftentimes sees its money swept. But the idea

00:35:47.420 --> 00:35:51.030
is long -term, these... dedicated revenue sources

00:35:51.030 --> 00:35:53.409
pay into the fund, the money gets loaned out,

00:35:53.469 --> 00:35:56.769
the recipients of that funding, which I think

00:35:56.769 --> 00:36:00.449
there's been no defaults on or very few throughout

00:36:00.449 --> 00:36:03.010
the history of the program, pay it back, including

00:36:03.010 --> 00:36:05.750
that low interest rate. And with the new revenue

00:36:05.750 --> 00:36:08.070
and the payments coming back into the fund, there's

00:36:08.070 --> 00:36:11.650
always money available for new projects. It's

00:36:11.650 --> 00:36:14.789
kind of this self -funding, self -perpetuating

00:36:14.789 --> 00:36:20.190
model that really is in the taxpayer's interest.

00:36:20.409 --> 00:36:23.369
And what has happened this year, they scooped

00:36:23.369 --> 00:36:25.570
up a bunch of those revenue sources, put them

00:36:25.570 --> 00:36:28.030
into the general fund, and then they backfilled

00:36:28.030 --> 00:36:31.630
by bonding, right? Using the state's bonding

00:36:31.630 --> 00:36:34.530
authority to provide money for public works assistance

00:36:34.530 --> 00:36:37.730
account projects that will be paid back, but

00:36:37.730 --> 00:36:40.110
at a much lower interest rate. So it is a bit

00:36:40.110 --> 00:36:42.090
of an eyebrow raiser. And that's what I meant

00:36:42.090 --> 00:36:44.849
when I said that. You just go, hmm, that sounds

00:36:44.849 --> 00:36:49.110
like a really strange thing to do. I don't, yeah,

00:36:49.269 --> 00:36:53.849
I don't think this is accurate, but this, I think

00:36:53.849 --> 00:36:56.510
of it as reverse arbitrage. A little bit, yeah.

00:36:57.349 --> 00:37:05.030
But, you know, what's interesting to me is we're

00:37:05.030 --> 00:37:07.789
at a time where. The value of the program has

00:37:07.789 --> 00:37:11.289
never been greater because, you know, like, you

00:37:11.289 --> 00:37:12.710
know, you and I have talked about this before.

00:37:12.769 --> 00:37:15.050
We've both been watching or engaged in politics

00:37:15.050 --> 00:37:18.190
for about 25 years. And for the vast majority

00:37:18.190 --> 00:37:22.610
of that, interest rates have been fairly low,

00:37:22.789 --> 00:37:25.570
right? Yeah, really low. And for the past 25

00:37:25.570 --> 00:37:30.460
years, I would say. And so. large counties or

00:37:30.460 --> 00:37:33.380
large municipalities haven't always looked to

00:37:33.380 --> 00:37:35.679
the public works assistance account because their

00:37:35.679 --> 00:37:39.079
access to capital their debt capacity didn't

00:37:39.079 --> 00:37:43.920
necessarily predicate a need to where they would

00:37:43.920 --> 00:37:46.559
like go through the steps or the requirements

00:37:46.559 --> 00:37:48.940
that the program required. They would just use

00:37:48.940 --> 00:37:52.760
their own access to capital. Sure. But now the

00:37:52.760 --> 00:37:56.239
delta between what like just King County could

00:37:56.239 --> 00:37:58.840
get with their own, you know, AAA bond rating

00:37:58.840 --> 00:38:01.260
versus what the public works assistance account

00:38:01.260 --> 00:38:04.190
has grown significantly. And I'm not. I shouldn't

00:38:04.190 --> 00:38:06.289
even have said a specific county, but there are

00:38:06.289 --> 00:38:10.289
choices in that access to low interest capital.

00:38:10.289 --> 00:38:14.409
What you really mean is any county that has access

00:38:14.409 --> 00:38:16.730
to capital through their own bonding capacity

00:38:16.730 --> 00:38:19.710
based on their revenue streams that has a good

00:38:19.710 --> 00:38:24.070
credit rating, even they. could benefit now because

00:38:24.070 --> 00:38:27.230
of the way the markets are by going to the public

00:38:27.230 --> 00:38:28.989
works assistance account rather than just going

00:38:28.989 --> 00:38:31.949
out to the bond market itself. And that's just

00:38:31.949 --> 00:38:33.949
a function of the interest. Yeah. And I guess

00:38:33.949 --> 00:38:36.269
the easier way to just say it is that all counties

00:38:36.269 --> 00:38:38.590
are going to benefit because the delta between

00:38:38.590 --> 00:38:41.070
what they could or could not get with their own

00:38:41.070 --> 00:38:44.579
bond rating. to what is being offered now has

00:38:44.579 --> 00:38:46.980
grown. Yeah. It's wide enough now that it makes

00:38:46.980 --> 00:38:48.940
sense. For everyone. For everyone, for sure.

00:38:49.619 --> 00:38:52.059
It's always made sense for the smaller ones,

00:38:52.239 --> 00:38:54.340
right? Because they just don't have that same

00:38:54.340 --> 00:38:56.119
access to capital. They don't have the same asset

00:38:56.119 --> 00:38:57.679
base. They don't have the same revenue base.

00:38:58.300 --> 00:39:00.400
They don't, you know, they may not have the same

00:39:00.400 --> 00:39:03.739
debt experience. Exactly. Right? All of those.

00:39:03.840 --> 00:39:06.860
That a longstanding county or a longstanding

00:39:06.860 --> 00:39:08.719
city would have, or they've got this, you know,

00:39:08.719 --> 00:39:12.119
huge history of bonding over time. And, you know,

00:39:12.230 --> 00:39:14.210
good repayment schedules and investors feel good

00:39:14.210 --> 00:39:16.590
about that. Right. And especially when you, when

00:39:16.590 --> 00:39:19.010
you, when you throw in the grant component and

00:39:19.010 --> 00:39:23.769
scale a project. So the grant award might be

00:39:23.769 --> 00:39:26.849
a much higher percentage of the project at a

00:39:26.849 --> 00:39:29.110
smaller County than it would be Brightwater.

00:39:29.269 --> 00:39:31.110
Well, and it's not always a County, right. It

00:39:31.110 --> 00:39:32.949
can also be a city. It could be a special service

00:39:32.949 --> 00:39:35.710
district, some of those other ones, ports, water

00:39:35.710 --> 00:39:37.929
and sewer, you know, all those sorts of things.

00:39:37.989 --> 00:39:42.519
Yeah. Any, any local government. Yeah, no. Not

00:39:42.519 --> 00:39:45.340
to belabor the point on this one, but it is when

00:39:45.340 --> 00:39:48.019
you look at it that way and we know how valuable

00:39:48.019 --> 00:39:50.820
the program is, we're grateful that they backfilled

00:39:50.820 --> 00:39:54.199
with bonding capacity. But that's obviously not

00:39:54.199 --> 00:39:56.119
a sustainable model, not something the state's

00:39:56.119 --> 00:39:57.940
going to continue to do into the future. All

00:39:57.940 --> 00:39:59.420
right. Well, that section was brought to you

00:39:59.420 --> 00:40:03.130
by Commissioner Hutzel. So what else do you want

00:40:03.130 --> 00:40:05.150
to talk about in the budget? Well, let's talk

00:40:05.150 --> 00:40:09.070
about some of the cuts. Where were you pinpointing

00:40:09.070 --> 00:40:11.869
some of the cuts that you thought would be more

00:40:11.869 --> 00:40:16.389
impactful? Well, I mean, you labeled, I think.

00:40:17.449 --> 00:40:19.650
You identified just kind of a number one on foundational

00:40:19.650 --> 00:40:22.750
public health. Yeah. And I think it, I don't

00:40:22.750 --> 00:40:24.670
think we need to, I don't need to spend any more

00:40:24.670 --> 00:40:27.250
time on that, but I think. Well, we had a good

00:40:27.250 --> 00:40:29.389
conversation with Jamie about that as well. So

00:40:29.389 --> 00:40:32.289
great. She's the right person to talk to. I think,

00:40:32.289 --> 00:40:34.329
you know, one of the things was I was looking

00:40:34.329 --> 00:40:38.510
at is the relationship between the state and

00:40:38.510 --> 00:40:42.530
locals with respect to Blake and last biennium.

00:40:42.530 --> 00:40:43.929
We're going to have to tell people what Blake

00:40:43.929 --> 00:40:46.340
is. Oh. Because I don't think we've actually

00:40:46.340 --> 00:40:48.679
talked about that on this podcast. So the Blake

00:40:48.679 --> 00:40:51.360
decision was what? Two years? Three years ago?

00:40:51.659 --> 00:40:54.619
Four years? Was it longer than that? It was longer

00:40:54.619 --> 00:40:59.179
than that. So the long and short of it is there

00:40:59.179 --> 00:41:03.480
was a court decision that rendered our felony,

00:41:03.699 --> 00:41:10.280
our ability to prove that someone knowingly was

00:41:10.280 --> 00:41:14.440
in possession of narcotics, made it very difficult.

00:41:14.829 --> 00:41:17.530
Right. And that was the Blake decision. And at

00:41:17.530 --> 00:41:19.130
the same time in Oregon. Essentially, someone

00:41:19.130 --> 00:41:22.570
claimed that the narcotics were found. Oh, we

00:41:22.570 --> 00:41:24.309
did a whole story? Oh, yeah. Yeah, this individual

00:41:24.309 --> 00:41:26.449
complaint. It's like they said they bought their

00:41:26.449 --> 00:41:28.550
clothes at Goodwill or Buffalo Exchange. No,

00:41:28.550 --> 00:41:31.210
no, no, no, no. That's not what I heard. It was

00:41:31.210 --> 00:41:33.250
in the pocket of the jeans they were wearing.

00:41:33.369 --> 00:41:35.289
Yeah. And they said they were someone else's

00:41:35.289 --> 00:41:38.750
jeans. Yeah. And had no knowledge that the narcotics,

00:41:38.889 --> 00:41:40.869
which they were in possession of. Were theirs.

00:41:41.050 --> 00:41:44.940
Were theirs. The classic. I haven't used this

00:41:44.940 --> 00:41:49.300
excuse, but those drugs aren't mine. Right. I

00:41:49.300 --> 00:41:52.860
have no idea whose drugs those are, officer.

00:41:53.139 --> 00:41:55.639
They were in your pocket. Well, these aren't

00:41:55.639 --> 00:41:57.719
my jeans. I mean, that's essentially my understanding.

00:41:57.719 --> 00:42:00.280
I'm going to get the legal terms wrong, and Russ

00:42:00.280 --> 00:42:03.239
is going to just, if Russ is listening, I apologize.

00:42:03.659 --> 00:42:05.260
I'm sure he's not. Don't worry about it. But

00:42:05.260 --> 00:42:10.000
basically, saying they weren't yours was. It

00:42:10.000 --> 00:42:14.260
was not an affirmative defense, right? And if

00:42:14.260 --> 00:42:16.519
you had them, if you were in possession of narcotics,

00:42:16.599 --> 00:42:18.679
then that was fine. So it basically added an

00:42:18.679 --> 00:42:21.059
element that our prosecutors would have to prove

00:42:21.059 --> 00:42:24.280
that you knew that they were on your possession,

00:42:24.460 --> 00:42:28.400
which was a standard that I think the court system

00:42:28.400 --> 00:42:30.760
was like, you know, would be very difficult.

00:42:31.079 --> 00:42:33.739
And now within the atmosphere was there was an

00:42:33.739 --> 00:42:37.480
organ initiative that legalized. or removed felony

00:42:37.480 --> 00:42:40.219
penalties, well, legalized, you know, possession

00:42:40.219 --> 00:42:45.059
of narcotics. And it was the, I think it's fair

00:42:45.059 --> 00:42:47.480
to say that the legislature was kind of trending

00:42:47.480 --> 00:42:51.670
that way or hoping. to the progressive, certain

00:42:51.670 --> 00:42:53.769
progressive elements of the legislature were

00:42:53.769 --> 00:42:57.269
for various reasons. We're looking at ways to

00:42:57.269 --> 00:42:59.989
decriminalize drug offenses. Well, there was

00:42:59.989 --> 00:43:01.949
certainly a lot of discussion in the legislature

00:43:01.949 --> 00:43:04.909
about that. Yeah. Around this decision and how

00:43:04.909 --> 00:43:08.230
to move forward, et cetera. And in fact, we ended,

00:43:08.250 --> 00:43:10.909
I think we had to come back and have a special

00:43:10.909 --> 00:43:14.969
session two sessions ago just to. Because they

00:43:14.969 --> 00:43:19.030
temporarily put something in place, right, for

00:43:19.030 --> 00:43:21.349
a longer -term solution, and then they left session

00:43:21.349 --> 00:43:24.090
without that longer -term solution. If you look

00:43:24.090 --> 00:43:28.710
back, I think, at our 2023 or 2022 legislative

00:43:28.710 --> 00:43:32.010
wrap -up report, there's something in there about

00:43:32.010 --> 00:43:34.670
that. But, yeah. And so this has been ongoing

00:43:34.670 --> 00:43:37.110
for years. And essentially what happened was

00:43:37.110 --> 00:43:41.949
it, well, it overturned or substantially altered.

00:43:42.599 --> 00:43:45.420
the sentences or the convictions of a lot of

00:43:45.420 --> 00:43:49.039
different criminals. I shouldn't say criminals

00:43:49.039 --> 00:43:51.699
of a lot of individuals who were convicted of

00:43:51.699 --> 00:43:54.480
those crimes that overturned those sentences

00:43:54.480 --> 00:43:58.980
or it was a mitigating factor in part of another

00:43:58.980 --> 00:44:03.460
sentence. And so. People had to get resentenced

00:44:03.460 --> 00:44:05.679
or their sentences had to be vacated. And in

00:44:05.679 --> 00:44:07.820
many cases, the fines and fees and forfeitures

00:44:07.820 --> 00:44:10.320
that they had paid had to be repaid. Yeah. And

00:44:10.320 --> 00:44:13.079
so there's been some funding that continues to

00:44:13.079 --> 00:44:15.760
be provided because most of this happened in

00:44:15.760 --> 00:44:18.739
counties because counties are where the state's

00:44:18.739 --> 00:44:21.739
justice system is essentially. Yes. You know,

00:44:21.739 --> 00:44:23.989
remind me. In Superior Court, what does every

00:44:23.989 --> 00:44:26.250
docket start with? In Superior Criminal Court.

00:44:26.349 --> 00:44:29.469
The state versus. Yep, state versus. We are the

00:44:29.469 --> 00:44:31.650
ones who operate the state justice system. We

00:44:31.650 --> 00:44:34.090
are the ones who implement and enforce the laws

00:44:34.090 --> 00:44:37.610
through our system of courts at the county level.

00:44:37.769 --> 00:44:40.070
And so we were the ones actually imposing the

00:44:40.070 --> 00:44:42.250
fines. We were the ones imposing the sentences

00:44:42.250 --> 00:44:44.989
and in some cases actually incarcerating the

00:44:44.989 --> 00:44:47.869
individuals because if it was less than 365 days,

00:44:47.949 --> 00:44:50.309
they would stay in county jail versus going to

00:44:50.309 --> 00:44:53.539
the state correction system. And so we are also

00:44:53.539 --> 00:44:57.739
the ones in most cases faced with vacating, resentencing,

00:44:58.019 --> 00:45:00.820
refunding, et cetera, et cetera. And so there's

00:45:00.820 --> 00:45:06.260
been ongoing support financially from the legislature

00:45:06.260 --> 00:45:08.820
to counties to deal with this issue. Yeah. And

00:45:08.820 --> 00:45:12.840
the amount of state support on that is dramatically

00:45:12.840 --> 00:45:16.860
diminished in this biennium. compared to last

00:45:16.860 --> 00:45:20.019
month yeah and i'm not sure exactly what impact

00:45:20.019 --> 00:45:21.579
that's going to have on counties i don't know

00:45:21.579 --> 00:45:26.360
if that is um if that is a function of just some

00:45:26.360 --> 00:45:28.340
of the workflow being yeah the fact that we've

00:45:28.340 --> 00:45:30.719
gone through a lot of it already and that is

00:45:30.719 --> 00:45:34.480
starting to dwindle um or if you know there's

00:45:34.480 --> 00:45:36.119
going to be larger impacts i don't know yeah

00:45:36.119 --> 00:45:39.800
to be determined i think the other um i think

00:45:39.800 --> 00:45:42.920
the water rights adjudication Um, I think, um,

00:45:43.099 --> 00:45:45.920
the Becca responsibilities, Becca was a big one.

00:45:46.000 --> 00:45:48.500
Um, there was a, there's a dramatic drop off

00:45:48.500 --> 00:45:50.539
there from, I think 14 million down to four.

00:45:50.860 --> 00:45:54.300
So that was a major cut. Now the Becca, the Becca

00:45:54.300 --> 00:45:58.300
funding, um, was, uh, directly related to some

00:45:58.300 --> 00:46:01.159
new requirements from the Becca bill. Uh, and

00:46:01.159 --> 00:46:03.360
that was, you want to remind everybody what that

00:46:03.360 --> 00:46:05.719
was originally juvenile truancy, right? From

00:46:05.719 --> 00:46:09.500
geez, 2000 and what? Oh, I don't, I can't. That's.

00:46:09.769 --> 00:46:13.130
Yeah. Like 2004, 2005. Senator Hargrove was here.

00:46:13.349 --> 00:46:15.550
Yeah. Way back when. Yeah. Yeah. Shout out to

00:46:15.550 --> 00:46:18.110
Senator Hargrove. But that funding and that program

00:46:18.110 --> 00:46:20.170
has been in place for a long, long time. Yes.

00:46:20.289 --> 00:46:22.429
And this is a major hit to that program. Senator

00:46:22.429 --> 00:46:24.909
Regala, Debbie Regala, Pierce County. Yeah. It's

00:46:24.909 --> 00:46:27.630
big. Yeah. So there are some impactful things

00:46:27.630 --> 00:46:31.889
here. That's for sure. But even when you bring

00:46:31.889 --> 00:46:35.599
those up. And you pinpoint and you say, okay,

00:46:35.679 --> 00:46:37.980
and some of these are going to be really important

00:46:37.980 --> 00:46:41.679
to some people, right? And I get that. But from

00:46:41.679 --> 00:46:43.659
a county perspective, even when you bring those

00:46:43.659 --> 00:46:46.480
up and you point at those, still a better budget

00:46:46.480 --> 00:46:50.900
than we had anticipated. Yeah. And honestly.

00:46:52.340 --> 00:46:55.360
I know I've said this before, but we are grateful.

00:46:55.639 --> 00:46:59.739
I mean, we are eternally grateful. We're very

00:46:59.739 --> 00:47:03.519
pleased with the support that the legislature

00:47:03.519 --> 00:47:06.199
has shown counties and other local governments

00:47:06.199 --> 00:47:09.239
in this budget and the fact that we didn't experience

00:47:09.239 --> 00:47:11.440
what we experienced during the Great Recession,

00:47:11.480 --> 00:47:14.159
which was just, I mean, I hate to say it this

00:47:14.159 --> 00:47:19.380
way, but almost a bloodletting of... state shared

00:47:19.380 --> 00:47:22.199
revenues for local governments to the point where

00:47:22.199 --> 00:47:24.579
we were shutting down programs and laying off

00:47:24.579 --> 00:47:27.920
staff at record levels. I think the way I would,

00:47:27.980 --> 00:47:31.559
the way I think of it is, is at that time there

00:47:31.559 --> 00:47:35.659
was a fundamental renegotiation between the state

00:47:35.659 --> 00:47:38.480
and local government about the responsibilities

00:47:38.480 --> 00:47:41.719
and resources available to do those responsibilities

00:47:41.719 --> 00:47:44.699
that we weren't necessarily party to that negotiation.

00:47:44.699 --> 00:47:46.960
I was going to say, I don't remember that. being

00:47:46.960 --> 00:47:50.519
a negotiation i remember it being whereas here's

00:47:50.519 --> 00:47:55.900
what you've got whereas this is a um a peanut

00:47:55.900 --> 00:48:00.260
buttering of pain points yeah it's a little bit

00:48:00.260 --> 00:48:02.679
more sharing the pain i agree throughout all

00:48:02.679 --> 00:48:09.139
sectors of the budget um uh i think um I think

00:48:09.139 --> 00:48:13.699
higher ed might say that they got disproportionate

00:48:13.699 --> 00:48:16.000
cuts. I know our community college system has

00:48:16.000 --> 00:48:17.980
some concerns. Yeah, but do you remember what

00:48:17.980 --> 00:48:20.460
they did to higher ed during the Great Recession?

00:48:20.519 --> 00:48:24.079
They gave them basically unlimited tuition authority

00:48:24.079 --> 00:48:29.820
in exchange for just cutting general fund. cut

00:48:29.820 --> 00:48:32.380
and i mean they i think they took it harder than

00:48:32.380 --> 00:48:35.059
we did i agree tuition's more than what what

00:48:35.059 --> 00:48:37.179
do they double triple quadruple during that period

00:48:37.179 --> 00:48:39.480
of time just to make up the difference i mean

00:48:39.480 --> 00:48:43.320
higher ed was was decimated yes for a period

00:48:43.320 --> 00:48:46.019
of time i mean they really took it to community

00:48:46.019 --> 00:48:48.739
behavioral health the red pen was all over higher

00:48:48.739 --> 00:48:51.539
ed and and public health uh and and behavioral

00:48:51.539 --> 00:48:53.880
health you know the red pen you know was striking

00:48:53.880 --> 00:48:58.800
out all of those things and Again, just not the

00:48:58.800 --> 00:49:01.579
same thing here, right? I mean, much more support

00:49:01.579 --> 00:49:06.000
for all of those things than we saw, you know,

00:49:06.039 --> 00:49:08.559
almost 20 years ago now. That gets back to my

00:49:08.559 --> 00:49:11.619
mystery. Like, I don't know how they did it.

00:49:12.420 --> 00:49:16.460
And I'm okay with that. I was never the smartest

00:49:16.460 --> 00:49:21.559
person in the room. But it is, you know, they

00:49:21.559 --> 00:49:23.820
have somehow figured out how to thread the needle.

00:49:24.320 --> 00:49:30.360
of kind of spreading the spreading the pain if

00:49:30.360 --> 00:49:34.099
you will to kind of all areas of the budget um

00:49:34.099 --> 00:49:36.519
whether as we whether it's higher ed whether

00:49:36.519 --> 00:49:39.920
it's whether it's um whether it's human services

00:49:39.920 --> 00:49:45.480
whether it's local governments etc um without

00:49:45.480 --> 00:49:51.139
necessarily you know overly targeting one sector

00:49:51.809 --> 00:49:54.889
Interestingly enough, too, in this budget, they

00:49:54.889 --> 00:49:58.050
are transferring, what, one half of 1 % or one

00:49:58.050 --> 00:50:00.329
tenth of 1 % permanently now to transportation

00:50:00.329 --> 00:50:03.050
from sales tax, which is something that they

00:50:03.050 --> 00:50:05.889
had to take out of their revenue streams in this

00:50:05.889 --> 00:50:08.630
budget in order to make that happen. One -tenth

00:50:08.630 --> 00:50:12.570
of 1%. One -tenth of 1%. Okay. And so that's

00:50:12.570 --> 00:50:15.769
a new thing that wasn't here before. So that's

00:50:15.769 --> 00:50:18.170
revenue that they had to figure out a way to

00:50:18.170 --> 00:50:21.730
either go without or replace. And there are new

00:50:21.730 --> 00:50:24.230
investments in other programs here. For instance,

00:50:24.469 --> 00:50:27.789
the grant program that was created by House Bill

00:50:27.789 --> 00:50:31.710
2015 that creates also some additional authority

00:50:31.710 --> 00:50:34.690
for local governments with a new one -tenth of

00:50:34.690 --> 00:50:37.780
1 % sales tax for... Law and justice purposes,

00:50:37.960 --> 00:50:41.659
there's $100 million in a grant program to hire

00:50:41.659 --> 00:50:45.380
more law enforcement officers, which was a priority

00:50:45.380 --> 00:50:48.980
and a campaign promise of the new governor, Governor

00:50:48.980 --> 00:50:51.940
Ferguson. He made it very clear at the very beginning

00:50:51.940 --> 00:50:54.059
of session that he wanted to see that in the

00:50:54.059 --> 00:50:57.440
budget, despite the fiscal challenges that the

00:50:57.440 --> 00:50:59.260
state was going to have. And it's in there. It

00:50:59.260 --> 00:51:04.320
is. And this is, that is contrary to my. And

00:51:04.320 --> 00:51:08.500
you mentioned it. The House budget proposal only

00:51:08.500 --> 00:51:10.920
had $25 million in it. Right. We end up with

00:51:10.920 --> 00:51:14.340
$100 million. Right. Grant program over four

00:51:14.340 --> 00:51:17.500
years. There's some criteria involved in order

00:51:17.500 --> 00:51:19.679
to be eligible to the grant program. Must be

00:51:19.679 --> 00:51:22.800
new hires. Cannot be laterals. Have to have certain

00:51:22.800 --> 00:51:25.539
policies and trainings in place, et cetera. And

00:51:25.539 --> 00:51:28.940
I don't know. Can we say this? It's a podcast.

00:51:29.039 --> 00:51:31.260
We can say anything we want. Because we can always

00:51:31.260 --> 00:51:35.289
cut it out afterwards. It's not. one new one

00:51:35.289 --> 00:51:38.809
-tenth it's two depending on whether you live

00:51:38.809 --> 00:51:42.969
in a city or a county so 2015 oh because counties

00:51:42.969 --> 00:51:47.269
can double up so 2015 that's right gives a um

00:51:47.769 --> 00:51:49.710
And I hate saying this, but there's not a better

00:51:49.710 --> 00:51:51.489
word to say because we haven't figured out a

00:51:51.489 --> 00:51:54.710
replacement, but a councilmanic authority. So

00:51:54.710 --> 00:51:57.050
the legislative authority of a county. It's actually

00:51:57.050 --> 00:51:58.889
one of my favorite words. Well, so many people

00:51:58.889 --> 00:52:01.690
say matic, which is wrong. It's wrong. It's manic.

00:52:01.929 --> 00:52:05.349
Which is gendered. Which is weird. Because there

00:52:05.349 --> 00:52:07.429
used to only be councilmen, and that's why I

00:52:07.429 --> 00:52:09.250
hate saying it. But also it feels like. We're

00:52:09.250 --> 00:52:11.789
trying to be. it feels like manic. Oh, like manic

00:52:11.789 --> 00:52:14.269
depressive. Yeah. Or like a little nutty, you

00:52:14.269 --> 00:52:16.949
know what I mean? Like a little council manic.

00:52:17.349 --> 00:52:21.210
Um, I was actually leaning less towards the gender

00:52:21.210 --> 00:52:24.110
part of it and more towards the, it's a funny

00:52:24.110 --> 00:52:26.329
name because it's makes you sound like the council's

00:52:26.329 --> 00:52:29.880
a little nuts. Well, At WSAC here, we strive

00:52:29.880 --> 00:52:34.019
to reach a certain balance. But it is a word

00:52:34.019 --> 00:52:36.019
sandwich to say at the discretion of the legislative

00:52:36.019 --> 00:52:38.639
authority, this is just councilmanic. In other

00:52:38.639 --> 00:52:40.860
words, the council can just take a majority vote.

00:52:40.960 --> 00:52:43.219
And if the majority vote says yes, they can impose

00:52:43.219 --> 00:52:45.159
the new tax. So the county can do that. Right,

00:52:45.239 --> 00:52:46.960
for a period of time. I think the city can do

00:52:46.960 --> 00:52:49.679
it as well. Yes. Again, for a period of time.

00:52:49.719 --> 00:52:52.179
And then after, I think it's after 2028, it has

00:52:52.179 --> 00:52:56.969
to go to the voters. So it can stack. Yes, which

00:52:56.969 --> 00:52:59.010
is the two -tenths portion that you're talking

00:52:59.010 --> 00:53:01.050
about. So if you're in a city, you could end

00:53:01.050 --> 00:53:03.530
up with the two -tenths because the city could

00:53:03.530 --> 00:53:05.570
impose it as well as the county, right? So if

00:53:05.570 --> 00:53:09.650
I lived in the county of Paul and I was the city

00:53:09.650 --> 00:53:12.230
of Brian. It would be a very nice county. And

00:53:12.230 --> 00:53:17.230
if Paul were to take that tax. I could as well.

00:53:17.349 --> 00:53:20.269
And residents of the city of Bryan would experience

00:53:20.269 --> 00:53:22.710
a sales tax increase of two -tenths. Right. Some

00:53:22.710 --> 00:53:25.269
people refer to that as fifth, but it's two -tenths

00:53:25.269 --> 00:53:27.789
in legislative tax terminology. Sure. And then

00:53:27.789 --> 00:53:31.090
people in the unincorporated county of Paul would

00:53:31.090 --> 00:53:34.110
have a one -tenth sales tax experience. Right.

00:53:34.269 --> 00:53:37.150
Unless, of course, when they go into the city

00:53:37.150 --> 00:53:38.889
to buy goods and services, then they're going

00:53:38.889 --> 00:53:42.199
to pay two -tenths. And Paul would... This guy

00:53:42.199 --> 00:53:44.119
sounds, this County sounds really familiar. The

00:53:44.119 --> 00:53:46.420
legislative authority, the budget authority of

00:53:46.420 --> 00:53:48.820
the County of Paul would receive the one 10th

00:53:48.820 --> 00:53:51.460
that was assessed on the city of Brian. That's

00:53:51.460 --> 00:53:54.559
right. So that's right. Hopefully I didn't. Is

00:53:54.559 --> 00:53:56.880
that confusing enough? I don't know, but I didn't

00:53:56.880 --> 00:53:58.539
want to talk about any of our members taking

00:53:58.539 --> 00:54:01.440
votes. So I didn't want to use County example.

00:54:01.699 --> 00:54:04.019
So it is what it got into trouble earlier. I

00:54:04.019 --> 00:54:06.320
mean, the bill is what it is. It does stack.

00:54:06.400 --> 00:54:09.260
And so if you're a County, you would collect

00:54:09.260 --> 00:54:12.190
that one 10th. percentage sales tax increase

00:54:12.190 --> 00:54:14.670
on all taxable sales countywide whether it's

00:54:14.670 --> 00:54:16.849
in the city or not so you're not just subject

00:54:16.849 --> 00:54:22.050
to your 15 of city wide sales taxes on this particular

00:54:22.050 --> 00:54:24.889
one tenth that you would otherwise get as a city

00:54:24.889 --> 00:54:27.570
you would impose that one tenth but it only gets

00:54:27.570 --> 00:54:29.869
applied in the city and so if the county and

00:54:29.869 --> 00:54:32.280
the city both did it it could result in a two

00:54:32.280 --> 00:54:34.119
-tenths increase. I think we've said that about

00:54:34.119 --> 00:54:37.000
four times now. So hopefully that's got two -tenths,

00:54:37.000 --> 00:54:39.199
one -fifth, four -twentieths, however you want

00:54:39.199 --> 00:54:43.800
to do it. 2100s, whatever. So it does impose

00:54:43.800 --> 00:54:47.739
a little bit extra. on city residents really

00:54:47.739 --> 00:54:51.039
not city residents but sales taxable sales within

00:54:51.039 --> 00:54:53.360
the city boundaries the question i have maybe

00:54:53.360 --> 00:54:54.719
you don't know the answer to this question because

00:54:54.719 --> 00:54:56.659
it's come to my mind and i don't know the answer

00:54:56.659 --> 00:54:59.539
to it either a county typically gets 15 of the

00:54:59.539 --> 00:55:03.179
city's share of sales taxes oh do they also get

00:55:03.179 --> 00:55:06.480
15 of this one -tenth share of the city's share

00:55:06.480 --> 00:55:09.400
i would say the legislation is silent that's

00:55:09.400 --> 00:55:12.789
interesting um so in this particular So if that's

00:55:12.789 --> 00:55:15.929
the case, a county may collect the full one -tenth

00:55:15.929 --> 00:55:20.190
on the city and the county and then an extra

00:55:20.190 --> 00:55:24.030
15 % of the one -tenth of the city share. So

00:55:24.030 --> 00:55:27.489
the city only ends up getting 85 % of its one

00:55:27.489 --> 00:55:31.050
-tenth? That is something that needs to be examined,

00:55:31.289 --> 00:55:33.369
is what I would say. Pretty good deal for the

00:55:33.369 --> 00:55:35.070
county, I would say. Maybe I shouldn't have brought

00:55:35.070 --> 00:55:40.099
it up. I think... That in practice, that I suspect

00:55:40.099 --> 00:55:43.239
many of our members will be having conversations

00:55:43.239 --> 00:55:46.980
with their city partners and examining various

00:55:46.980 --> 00:55:49.920
pathways forward, whether interlocal agreements

00:55:49.920 --> 00:55:53.320
or not, and things of that nature. But the legislature,

00:55:53.539 --> 00:55:56.719
like I said, the legislation is silent on those

00:55:56.719 --> 00:56:01.480
kinds of things. It's interesting how... You

00:56:01.480 --> 00:56:03.480
know, we use the expression like belt and suspenders.

00:56:03.500 --> 00:56:06.159
Yeah. Funny story. My dad actually does wear

00:56:06.159 --> 00:56:10.420
a belt and suspenders. Both. The suspenders do

00:56:10.420 --> 00:56:13.139
the work, but he feels like a belt is needed

00:56:13.139 --> 00:56:17.059
to create a finished look. But God bless him.

00:56:17.860 --> 00:56:23.019
It's going to be. 86 next month. So, yep, belt

00:56:23.019 --> 00:56:24.980
and suspenders. But, you know, a lot of times

00:56:24.980 --> 00:56:28.500
in legislative construction, you know, we go

00:56:28.500 --> 00:56:33.440
out of our way to really enumerate the policy

00:56:33.440 --> 00:56:37.199
that we want accomplished. And to the, you know,

00:56:37.219 --> 00:56:39.739
to the point of persnicketiness. And in this

00:56:39.739 --> 00:56:43.539
case, this almost feels like it's an idea more

00:56:43.539 --> 00:56:48.260
than a fully fleshed out piece of legislation.

00:56:49.079 --> 00:56:51.019
Does that make sense? It does. Maybe I'm not

00:56:51.019 --> 00:56:53.320
being fair. I don't know if you're being fair

00:56:53.320 --> 00:56:56.079
or not. I think a lot of thought went into this

00:56:56.079 --> 00:56:59.500
this year. A lot of thought on the requirements

00:56:59.500 --> 00:57:04.599
and the details around how we want the money

00:57:04.599 --> 00:57:10.579
to be used. Agreed. on the actual mechanics of

00:57:10.579 --> 00:57:13.739
the local option. And I should really split that

00:57:13.739 --> 00:57:16.880
out. Yeah, and I was involved in some of those

00:57:16.880 --> 00:57:19.139
discussions around the mechanics piece. And I

00:57:19.139 --> 00:57:20.880
know Brad Banks was really involved in some of

00:57:20.880 --> 00:57:22.639
those discussions as well with the cities and

00:57:22.639 --> 00:57:24.860
with others. And he's going to be in here in

00:57:24.860 --> 00:57:26.500
a little while, so I'll ask him about it too.

00:57:26.920 --> 00:57:29.559
Please don't tell him that I impugned him. Oh,

00:57:29.559 --> 00:57:31.900
you didn't. Yeah, you definitely didn't. Everyone's

00:57:31.900 --> 00:57:34.380
okay with me impugning. It's part of our shtick.

00:57:34.639 --> 00:57:36.840
I wouldn't tell him anyways. I'd just let him

00:57:36.840 --> 00:57:38.409
listen to the shtick. podcast and find out by

00:57:38.409 --> 00:57:40.429
himself yeah and then you and he could have a

00:57:40.429 --> 00:57:42.610
chat about it afterwards we will undoubtedly

00:57:42.610 --> 00:57:45.309
but i give him notes on his podcast i was like

00:57:45.309 --> 00:57:49.090
i bet you do via text hey listen to your podcast

00:57:49.090 --> 00:57:52.849
you should stop doing a um yeah no you say but

00:57:52.849 --> 00:57:58.429
um too much that's probably true actually but

00:57:58.429 --> 00:58:02.539
um uh see there i go again You're just talking

00:58:02.539 --> 00:58:05.260
about working on the details. Yeah. There were

00:58:05.260 --> 00:58:08.159
a lot of conversations about kind of how to do

00:58:08.159 --> 00:58:10.539
the implementation piece. I'm not sure how detailed

00:58:10.539 --> 00:58:17.119
they got. Well, honestly, is it a feature or

00:58:17.119 --> 00:58:21.380
a bug? Yeah, that's true. And I think depending

00:58:21.380 --> 00:58:23.460
on your perspective, you can say this is a pretty

00:58:23.460 --> 00:58:25.619
good deal. Yeah. And we can figure this out.

00:58:25.760 --> 00:58:27.599
Right. And the less we say about it and the less

00:58:27.599 --> 00:58:30.320
we do about it. That's good. Because I think

00:58:30.320 --> 00:58:35.460
otherwise, to your point about worst -case scenario,

00:58:35.679 --> 00:58:41.539
if a county decides to utilize this option, they

00:58:41.539 --> 00:58:44.320
are getting one -tenth of 1 % countywide. Right.

00:58:44.539 --> 00:58:47.840
Worst -case scenario. Yep. Possibly there's an

00:58:47.840 --> 00:58:50.500
avenue where they might get one -tenth of 1 %

00:58:50.500 --> 00:58:54.780
and then another 15 % of an additional 1%. Had

00:58:54.780 --> 00:58:59.280
there been a... more robust negotiation about

00:58:59.280 --> 00:59:01.659
the relationship between the county and city,

00:59:01.800 --> 00:59:05.380
we might have been looking at. being required

00:59:05.380 --> 00:59:08.480
to share that one -tenth of 1%. Well, there was

00:59:08.480 --> 00:59:10.820
some discussion about that, and revenue sharing

00:59:10.820 --> 00:59:16.059
had been brought up, and the cities, of course,

00:59:16.119 --> 00:59:19.039
were in favor of that. As you can imagine, counties

00:59:19.039 --> 00:59:22.679
not so much. We were able to kind of stave that

00:59:22.679 --> 00:59:24.920
off in this particular bill, which was a good

00:59:24.920 --> 00:59:27.679
outcome for us. So, you know, that's that at

00:59:27.679 --> 00:59:29.739
this point. But, you know, who knows what happens

00:59:29.739 --> 00:59:31.960
in the future? There's always opportunities for

00:59:31.960 --> 00:59:35.619
more changes. Brian, I kind of feel like we've

00:59:35.619 --> 00:59:39.099
gone into a lot of detail here, certainly have

00:59:39.099 --> 00:59:42.840
unveiled the mystery of the confusion around

00:59:42.840 --> 00:59:45.460
how do you bring in half as much revenue and

00:59:45.460 --> 00:59:48.760
spend just as much money without having the same

00:59:48.760 --> 00:59:53.190
change in your... fun balance at the end so that'll

00:59:53.190 --> 00:59:56.050
be a fun little problem to try to solve at some

00:59:56.050 --> 00:59:58.670
point offline and we'll have to somehow come

00:59:58.670 --> 01:00:00.929
back and inform our listeners if we ever crack

01:00:00.929 --> 01:00:03.210
the code i feel strongly that mitch will have

01:00:03.210 --> 01:00:05.230
it figured out while he's editing he probably

01:00:05.230 --> 01:00:08.429
will he'll be like yeah um editor's note at the

01:00:08.429 --> 01:00:10.329
end here's how it was done i don't know why these

01:00:10.329 --> 01:00:13.329
guys couldn't figure it out some insider editor's

01:00:13.329 --> 01:00:16.170
note i did not figure that out And we've gone

01:00:16.170 --> 01:00:18.369
into some of the benefits, some of the new investments.

01:00:18.429 --> 01:00:20.989
I should mention there's more money in the budget

01:00:20.989 --> 01:00:24.909
than in past years for public defense as well,

01:00:25.010 --> 01:00:26.309
which is something that we were really looking

01:00:26.309 --> 01:00:29.550
forward to. Not as much nearly as we asked for

01:00:29.550 --> 01:00:31.989
or need, but it is more than double what we've

01:00:31.989 --> 01:00:33.710
had in the past. So it's definitely a step in

01:00:33.710 --> 01:00:35.849
the right direction and a good trend line if

01:00:35.849 --> 01:00:37.989
that continues in subsequent budgets. Hopefully

01:00:37.989 --> 01:00:40.469
it will. We'll continue fighting for that for

01:00:40.469 --> 01:00:42.650
our members. So we've kind of gone through a

01:00:42.650 --> 01:00:46.650
lot of that. like one or two things left to say

01:00:46.650 --> 01:00:49.650
about this year's budget, how would you wrap

01:00:49.650 --> 01:00:54.530
it up? This was an unusually hard session. Yeah.

01:00:55.869 --> 01:00:59.510
We had... I agree, by the way. And I think most

01:00:59.510 --> 01:01:01.250
people would. You know, we had a legislature

01:01:01.250 --> 01:01:05.849
that for the vast majority of them had never

01:01:05.849 --> 01:01:09.489
experienced a situation with limited resources.

01:01:09.829 --> 01:01:15.239
And I think just from... You know, but ultimately

01:01:15.239 --> 01:01:20.619
I think we are grateful for the individuals that

01:01:20.619 --> 01:01:23.159
were at the center of these decisions. You know,

01:01:23.179 --> 01:01:27.289
you're. team and your staff has done a tremendous

01:01:27.289 --> 01:01:30.530
amount of work in educating the legislature about

01:01:30.530 --> 01:01:32.590
the role of counties, the value of counties.

01:01:32.769 --> 01:01:33.889
You know, you're just complimenting yourself

01:01:33.889 --> 01:01:36.989
when you say that, right? No, I'm just a hired

01:01:36.989 --> 01:01:38.789
guy and I'm just here to pass a few housing bills.

01:01:38.909 --> 01:01:40.550
You're part of the team too. And I think that,

01:01:41.210 --> 01:01:42.750
you know, I think the work that this association

01:01:42.750 --> 01:01:44.789
has done is reflected in this final document.

01:01:44.969 --> 01:01:47.929
Well, I hope so. You know, thank you for saying

01:01:47.929 --> 01:01:50.190
that. I hope so. And the other thing that I think

01:01:50.190 --> 01:01:52.030
that you said that's really remarkable and something

01:01:52.030 --> 01:01:54.789
that I've been reflecting on personally. really

01:01:54.789 --> 01:01:57.010
not just this year, but over the last couple

01:01:57.010 --> 01:02:00.710
of years, is you're right. Most of these legislators

01:02:00.710 --> 01:02:03.630
and frankly, most of our members have not been

01:02:03.630 --> 01:02:07.309
through a session like this or a time period

01:02:07.309 --> 01:02:10.949
like this where they've had severely restricted

01:02:10.949 --> 01:02:14.130
or reduced resources. You know, the people that

01:02:14.130 --> 01:02:17.730
I served with, the members that you served when

01:02:17.730 --> 01:02:20.829
you were here on staff are no longer here. There's

01:02:20.829 --> 01:02:24.150
one. that I can think of, just one that I can

01:02:24.150 --> 01:02:27.329
think of that is still here as a member of WASAC

01:02:27.329 --> 01:02:29.789
who was here during the Great Recession throughout

01:02:29.789 --> 01:02:32.730
the entire thing. And that's not counting me.

01:02:32.750 --> 01:02:34.389
I'm not counting myself because I'm no longer

01:02:34.389 --> 01:02:37.610
a member, right? I'm staff. And that's not true

01:02:37.610 --> 01:02:39.670
of the legislature, but it certainly is true

01:02:39.670 --> 01:02:42.969
of the vast majority of the legislature. I mean,

01:02:42.989 --> 01:02:46.360
there are some members who were there. during

01:02:46.360 --> 01:02:48.320
the Great Recession, right? Senator Braun was

01:02:48.320 --> 01:02:51.139
the lead budget writer for the Senate, I believe,

01:02:51.300 --> 01:02:53.300
during those years or shortly thereafter. I'm

01:02:53.300 --> 01:02:55.659
pretty sure it was during those years. And there

01:02:55.659 --> 01:02:58.420
are some other members of that body, that esteemed

01:02:58.420 --> 01:03:01.420
body on both sides, who were there at the time.

01:03:01.460 --> 01:03:04.099
But the majority of it's turned over. They don't

01:03:04.099 --> 01:03:07.559
know what it's like to do this. They have not

01:03:07.559 --> 01:03:09.619
had the experience that their colleagues who

01:03:09.619 --> 01:03:12.360
came before them had. And so a lot of that institutional

01:03:12.360 --> 01:03:14.679
knowledge is gone. And this is new for many of

01:03:14.679 --> 01:03:18.099
them. That is Remarkable. In my opinion. Yeah.

01:03:18.639 --> 01:03:21.239
Remarkable. Yeah. It's about, it's like five

01:03:21.239 --> 01:03:23.619
on either side. Like top. Is it really that,

01:03:23.619 --> 01:03:25.099
that few? Yeah. I mean, we could go through them,

01:03:25.119 --> 01:03:26.880
but we don't, it's already late enough, but yeah.

01:03:27.039 --> 01:03:30.579
Yeah. Tomiko Santos. Right. Springer. Yeah. Springer.

01:03:30.760 --> 01:03:32.099
Orcott. Right. Something like that. And then

01:03:32.099 --> 01:03:34.059
Chesler. Fitzgibbon. I think he was around, wasn't

01:03:34.059 --> 01:03:36.079
he? I don't know. Yeah. But anyways, regardless,

01:03:36.280 --> 01:03:38.179
there weren't very many. It's very few. Yeah.

01:03:38.260 --> 01:03:40.219
It's yeah. Yeah. Interesting. Well, thank you,

01:03:40.219 --> 01:03:41.820
Paul. Yeah. Well, thanks for taking the time.

01:03:42.000 --> 01:03:43.380
Appreciate you having brought in. And thanks

01:03:43.380 --> 01:03:47.050
for spending the time. to kind of look through

01:03:47.050 --> 01:03:49.250
this and uncover the little mystery there that

01:03:49.250 --> 01:03:51.710
is going to keep me awake at night now. Obviously,

01:03:51.730 --> 01:03:53.809
you've done some research and your knowledge

01:03:53.809 --> 01:03:56.289
and experience working with the budget and your

01:03:56.289 --> 01:03:59.150
knack or interest in just kind of figuring it

01:03:59.150 --> 01:04:03.210
out year for year, I think is always very informative.

01:04:05.359 --> 01:04:08.219
It's a great insight that I think a lot of people

01:04:08.219 --> 01:04:10.039
don't bring to the table when they think about

01:04:10.039 --> 01:04:12.460
the state budget. And so having you here to chat

01:04:12.460 --> 01:04:14.559
about it with us is really a pleasure. So I appreciate

01:04:14.559 --> 01:04:16.380
it. Thank you, Paul. Enjoying it always. Yeah,

01:04:16.500 --> 01:04:18.400
me too. And you mentioned before that you were

01:04:18.400 --> 01:04:21.159
a contract lobbyist for WASAC this year, which

01:04:21.159 --> 01:04:23.539
I think is the first time in a long time. Yes.

01:04:23.719 --> 01:04:26.539
Which is great. And I just want to say, now that

01:04:26.539 --> 01:04:28.619
the session's over, that it was a pleasure working

01:04:28.619 --> 01:04:30.760
with you this year, Brian. You made some good

01:04:30.760 --> 01:04:32.920
progress for us on our housing stuff. Congratulations

01:04:32.920 --> 01:04:36.949
on getting - Thank you. House Bill 5471 or Senate

01:04:36.949 --> 01:04:39.510
Bill 5471 passed. We knew what you meant. Yeah,

01:04:39.550 --> 01:04:42.690
for us. I've said this to other people and I'll

01:04:42.690 --> 01:04:45.889
say it to you as well. During this session, the

01:04:45.889 --> 01:04:50.110
budget and the fiscal situation were so, they

01:04:50.110 --> 01:04:52.909
were so large in every room. It was like the

01:04:52.909 --> 01:04:56.469
elephant in every room, right? And if you didn't

01:04:56.469 --> 01:05:00.050
have a bill that either cut expenses or brought

01:05:00.050 --> 01:05:02.929
new revenue to the table, it was going to be

01:05:02.929 --> 01:05:05.750
really hard. to get attention, right? It was

01:05:05.750 --> 01:05:08.429
going to be really hard for you to find traction

01:05:08.429 --> 01:05:10.869
and to pass that bill. And the fact that, you

01:05:10.869 --> 01:05:13.150
know, we gave you four bills and you passed one

01:05:13.150 --> 01:05:15.929
of them on housing is something to be damn proud

01:05:15.929 --> 01:05:19.090
of. And I think you really deserve a pat on the

01:05:19.090 --> 01:05:20.610
back. And I just want to congratulate you for

01:05:20.610 --> 01:05:22.929
that because that was not easy this year. You

01:05:22.929 --> 01:05:25.960
know, anything that wasn't... you know, helping

01:05:25.960 --> 01:05:28.920
the fiscal situation just wasn't getting the

01:05:28.920 --> 01:05:31.199
airtime or the attention that it deserves. So

01:05:31.199 --> 01:05:34.239
the fact that you got that through is, is a testament

01:05:34.239 --> 01:05:36.659
to your skill and your ability. And we really

01:05:36.659 --> 01:05:38.579
appreciate it. So thank you, Paul. You bet. All

01:05:38.579 --> 01:05:42.639
right. Well, Brian, big plans for now that session's

01:05:42.639 --> 01:05:44.539
over and you're heading off to interim, going

01:05:44.539 --> 01:05:47.480
to hang out on the boat for a while or run through

01:05:47.480 --> 01:05:50.840
the woods for the next 32 days straight or, you

01:05:50.840 --> 01:05:54.860
know, mostly now are, you know, We shift from...

01:05:55.260 --> 01:05:58.420
kind of on the ground lobbying to now kind of

01:05:58.420 --> 01:06:01.260
figuring out what's going on and how to implement

01:06:01.260 --> 01:06:03.780
what happened and kind of the, the communication

01:06:03.780 --> 01:06:07.059
part of the job. So is that the, Oh my gosh,

01:06:07.119 --> 01:06:09.800
what did we just do? Sort of time. It's about,

01:06:09.840 --> 01:06:13.719
uh, you know, it's, it's, um, it's, it's, you

01:06:13.719 --> 01:06:15.699
know, it's commission meetings and council meetings

01:06:15.699 --> 01:06:18.320
for the next, it's the road show for the next,

01:06:18.440 --> 01:06:21.539
uh, two weeks after after action reports. And

01:06:21.539 --> 01:06:23.760
yeah, here's what happened and here's how it

01:06:23.760 --> 01:06:25.179
happened. Exactly. It's my favorite part of my

01:06:25.179 --> 01:06:27.260
job. I mean, we live in a beautiful state with

01:06:27.260 --> 01:06:28.980
lots of great communities. There are worse things

01:06:28.980 --> 01:06:30.559
to do than get on the road around here, that's

01:06:30.559 --> 01:06:33.340
for sure. Exactly. Well, Brian, take care until

01:06:33.340 --> 01:06:37.320
we see you next time, okay? Yep. Thanks for tuning

01:06:37.320 --> 01:06:39.539
in to County Connection. Stay in the loop by

01:06:39.539 --> 01:06:41.900
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01:06:41.900 --> 01:06:44.639
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01:06:44.639 --> 01:06:46.719
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01:06:46.840 --> 01:06:49.000
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01:06:49.000 --> 01:06:51.219
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01:06:51.360 --> 01:06:54.099
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