Is a ragtag group worse than a motley crew? I
don't know. They definitely hang out together.
Yeah, ragtag is more of a, you know, almost appearance
versus a motley crew is more of a behavioral
thing. That's true. Yes. I was more thinking
of that guy Urban's hat, but yeah. All right.
Should we get this thing started? Let's do it.
Welcome to County Connection, the official podcast
of the Washington State Association of Counties,
where we dive into the legislative issues shaping
the future of our communities. From budgets to
public safety, infrastructure to elections, we'll
break down what's happening in Olympia and how
it impacts counties from across the Evergreen
State. Stay informed, stay engaged, and join
us as we amplify the voice of Washington's 39
counties. Welcome everybody to the County Connection
Podcast. I'm Paul Jewell, your host and Government
Relations Director for the Washington State Association
of Counties. I've got a special guest today,
somebody I just drug on off the street. It's
good to see you, Eric Fitch. Good to be here.
Yeah, thanks for coming in. Eric is the Executive
Director for the Washington Public Ports Association.
I am. How are things going over there with the
ports? Things are going well. Port world is generally
a positive one, although now... All anyone wants
to ask me about is tariffs. I realize now you're
going to ask me about tariffs, but I'd say it's
good with a slight pause and caveat that the
global economy is somewhat up in the air. Yeah,
I imagine with what's going on nationally, you
guys are pretty busy thinking about some of the
impacts and implications and the long -term effects
that you're going to be dealing with, I'm sure,
for a while. But what I want to talk about today
and what we've been focusing on in this podcast
for the last couple months is really the Washington
State legislative session. You and I have been
working together for a while now legislatively
here in Olympia, and I kind of want to get into
that a little bit. But I also want our members
to get to know you. because I bet a lot of them
don't know you. And I think that knowing the
Ports Executive Director and really just being
familiar with the Ports Association in general
is in the best interest of many of our members.
Counties and ports actually have a lot of opportunities
to work together. And I want to get into that
a little bit. Do you remember the first time
we met? Yeah, I do. I didn't have a beard. I
was 12 years younger. I don't think I had a beard
either. You did not have a beard. Did I have
more hair on the top? You had hair, yeah. Some
more, some less. Some more, some less. It would
have been summer of 2015. Was it that long ago?
That's 10 years ago. Yeah, because I just did
that one beautiful year in Senator Cantwell's
D .C. Senate office, and that's when I met you
and your motley crew of water advocates. Yeah,
so I didn't know you were at Senator Cantwell's
office for only one year. I thought you were
there longer. Well, I was. I laugh because her
office has a reputation for turnover. I would
say that's because people get really good, hard
-earned experience quickly and move on to other
exciting endeavors like I did. In my case, I
was a transportation policy -focused legislative
assistant on the House side. The Senate was embarking
on the reauthorization of the service transportation
package. I had a friend in her office who called
and said, come up to the big time. Come to a
Senate office and help us write a transportation
package. And I said, I'll do one year. And I
did pretty much one year. We got the bill passed.
Move back to Washington. In and out. Yep. Well,
how'd you end up getting stuck in a water policy
meeting on the Yakima Basin Integrated Plan with
me and a bunch of other guys if you were a transportation?
Yeah. Well, I was also really bad at saying no
to any policy issue. Me too. It was a really,
it was a. Great experience. And I'm not just
protecting myself against Senator Cantwell listening
to this podcast, but I came in with... I hear
Senator Cantwell listens to every one of these
podcasts. Yeah, well, it's good to have listeners
in high places. But seriously, I... Joined her
office as a transportation policy analyst, but
I was also the staff liaison to the Senate Energy
and Natural Resources Committee where she was
the ranking member. So it was my job to walk
from our personal office to their community offices
every week for their staff meetings. And I would
walk in and they would all sort of sigh and groan
and say, oh, here's the guy from the personal
office. But there was a very talented water.
policy expert on the committee who i worked with
as sort of the personal office liaison so that's
how i was in the yakima based integrated plan
meetings but yeah my desk was famously the interns
would come by when they were training new interns
and they'd say if you have mail and you're not
sure who it goes to it goes to eric ah perfect
yes yeah that's how i got that job So any mail
that they don't know where it goes, just give
it to Eric. I was the general inbox, yeah. So
you worked for Cantwell. That's where we first
met. And then when you came back to Washington
State, you started out at the Port of Seattle,
right? Yeah, I did the 2016 legislative session
as the Port of Seattle State Relations Manager.
So I was the port's primary liaison to the state
legislature, advocated for their policy interests
in Olympia. And I was also the port's primary
liaison to the Washington Public Ports Association,
which is our trade association. The Port of Seattle
is the biggest member. And unlike any other member
I've learned since in its scope and size, but
WPPA was kind of my home base down here in Olympia.
Their offices are right off campus. And that's
really how I got to know a lot of port members
that I work with today. So, yeah, I was the seven
years as Port of Seattle State Government Relations
guy. Okay. Seven years? Wow. Yeah. That seems,
boy, that went by fast. It did. This is my 10th
legislative session. Here in Washington. Yeah.
Working the Olympia session. And I think it must
be about the same for you. I think it's – no,
this is only my sixth or seventh. When I first
met you, I was still a county commissioner. Right.
And then I was a county commissioner still for
a couple years afterwards while you were at the
Port of Seattle. Is it Port of Seattle or Port
of King County? Well, good question. It is the
Port of Seattle, but it is a countywide port
district. And there are – every couple years
they talk about changing the name, but I think
it's been a while. Firmly Port of Seattle. And
then you joined WPPA or the Washington Public
Ports Association, what, two years ago? Yeah,
January 2023, I started as the executive director
at the Washington Public Ports Association. And
that's been going well. It's been going well,
I think. I hope my members feel the same. Well,
I have a feeling after this podcast, we might
get a few comments. Yeah, this is not going out
on our social media feeds. No, I mean, it's been
really, for me, from a personal and professional
standpoint, a success because it's... I think,
broadened my perspective beyond just Seattle
and King County. Even when I was at Port of Seattle,
I tried to stay in touch with our ports outside
of the Puget Sound because when I was with Senator
Cantwell, I had seen how much we all had in common
and how much more successful we could be advocating
together. So that was kind of an approach I brought
to my job at Seattle. It is 100 % of what I do
now, which is trying to find commonalities between
my members. I think I found a lot. I think that
there's been progress in our sort of shared mission.
But I'm sure you feel this way in your job. Every
one thing we do that I feel. proud of as a success.
I can think of three more that I want to get
done. So it's been going well, but more work
to be done. Well, when you have a diverse membership
and you're trying to run an association, there
is never not something to do. That's for sure.
Yeah. And the political climate is necessarily
one of the things I get asked about. So we could
be doing all we can to represent our members'
interests. I really mean that. hour out of the
day. And there are things out of our control
that our members want to know what we're working
on. And that's part of the challenge of running
a membership organization. Well, and things are
going so crazy at the federal level right now
to trying to balance them both, you know, trying
to effectively represent your members here during
the session in Olympia, trying to keep an eye
on what's going on federally with you mentioned
tariffs, which we're going to get into creates
a whole other layer, a whole other level of challenge,
I imagine, that you're trying to, you know, juggle
and balance with the limited staff that you have.
Yeah, I mean, it's one of the defining dynamic.
We are the Washington public ports association
is a state advocacy organization. So our focus
is the state legislature, our executive agencies.
We work very closely with an organization called
the Pacific Northwest waterways association.
They have a DC focus and we have probably 50
members in common. They represent. the big ports
and big, little and medium sized ports in our
state at the federal level. So luckily, we work
very closely together. But you can imagine a
member calls me and says, what about the pauses
in federal funding or what impact are tariffs
going to have? I can't say, sorry, I don't do
DC stuff. That's not going to work. So it's part
of why partnerships and, you know, even just
our work together and some of the panels we've
been on talking about the power of partnering
with. Not just national organizations, but other
local organizations, because we can't just tell
our members, sorry, not my job. So we're always
looking out for sort of common partners who are
looking to accomplish the same things. We have
the exact same experience here. So I do have
another question, though, that's maybe a little
off topic because I was stalking you a little
bit when I was preparing for this podcast. It's
getting warm in here. It's just you and me here.
Don't worry about it. So as I was going through
your bio, I looked at your LinkedIn page. You
still list your job as a delivery driver on your
LinkedIn page. You know what? I'm going to spin
this one. Tell me why that's still there. Well,
that's mostly because I don't really know how
to use LinkedIn. I mean, seriously, I finally
when I took this job was like, all right, I'm
going to grow up and use the Internet like everybody
else. But but but seriously, I refer to that
as my introduction to freight mobility and to
the role of ports. And I was just in Vancouver
giving a lecture of a stretch. No, but hey, roll
with me. So first off. this little mom and pop
company would pay me to sit in traffic, basically.
Because I went to high school on Bainbridge Island,
so I'm very familiar with the ferries. I couldn't
believe that they just sent me to the ferry terminal
without looking at the ferry schedule. And I
was like, you guys are paying me $17 an hour
to sit in traffic, right? And it really made
me think, as I sat in traffic and racked up the
bucks in my bank account, that this small company
was paying the price of congestion. I mean, and
I'm not BSing. When I went to DC and worked in
transportation policy, we talked. all the time
about the impact that freight mobility congestion
has on economic competitiveness on small businesses
and i i witnessed that firsthand and then this
little mom and pop wine importer got a um a placement
at costco around the holidays and it it changed
the fortunes of that whole company oh i imagine
uh and we had to go pick up a box of french champagne
at not at the port of seattle but at a at a um
transload facility off dock and you know seriously
me riding shotgun with a guy who had a cdl and
we went and picked up a crate of champagne and
you know i grew up in portland and seattle in
these port cities i had never witnessed the scale
of the port and picking up a box from france
yeah and opening it up and the dust is french
dust it was like here i am this tiny speck on
the earth connected to france by trade i mean
it sounds Totally made up, but that was my introduction
to how our ports connect us to the rest of the
world. But that's not why it's on my LinkedIn
page. I genuinely didn't know it was there until
right now. I've never looked at dust and wondered
where it came from. Yeah, I'm a real idealist.
I might do that from now on, especially with
the packages that I get from Amazon. I wonder
where this one came from. Well, Eric, thanks
for coming by. I know you didn't. this wasn't
the first thing on your list today, but yeah,
for the listeners, I've been avoiding this for
weeks and it's the last week of session. So it's
now or never. I know I've been trying to arm
wrestle you to get you in here, but I really
do think that our listeners are going to be interested
in this conversation. I think that when you talk
about, you know, counties and ports and some
of the things that overlap. together that we
have dual interests in. I think there's a lot
for our members to learn. Let's start out with
just kind of really what is a port? And the reason
I ask that question is not to be sarcastic, but
I think a lot of people, when they think of ports,
think about what you just talked about, which
is Seattle and Portland and barges in the water
and crates, right? And those sorts of things,
shipments coming in from overseas, et cetera.
And a lot of people think you've got to have
longshoremen and... when you're talking about
ports, but that couldn't be farther from the
truth in Washington State. Yeah, it's more the
exception than the rule in the case of our port
system. Ports are, in Washington's version, a
unique construction of Washington created in
1911 by an act of the legislature which gave
communities the ability to form a port district,
an independently elected special purpose or limited
purpose government, depending on your terminology.
And those governments were charged explicitly
by the legislature with operating harbors and
transportation terminals to promote trade and
commerce. I won't go down the whole history books.
I do recommend everybody in Washington visit
historylink .org. You didn't know I was going
to plug them, but I do whenever I can because
it's a free encyclopedia that dives deep into
the history of our state. Today's episode is
sponsored by historylink .org. I think we should
be sponsoring them. The idea was born out of
this concern that the shipping companies and
the railroads at the turn of the century were
completely in control of the waterfront, not
just in Seattle, Tacoma, Everett, Bellingham,
Vancouver, a lot of timber export, a lot of rail
born commerce, but all done by private companies.
And so if you went down to the Seattle waterfront,
there was, you know, a half mile of crisscrossed
railroad track between. john q citizen and the
water and um the sort of progressive movement
of the time not the progressive movement of the
day suggested that the public should benefit
from public resources it's sounds almost i don't
know marxist or something now you know the means
of production but the idea was this is a publicly
owned resource and it's being completely dominated
by private interest. So the state legislature
passed the Port District Act to give communities
the ability to create these governments that
would then acquire land that they would often
lease out to private entities. So it's still
private businesses making profit. It's still
capitalism. There's still a ton of private interest,
for sure, yeah. But the public derives revenue
from it and then reinvests that revenue in additional
projects. And so it did start out as that harbor
and terminal focus, and it started spreading
east. Initially on the rivers, you know, Port
of Kennewick, I think was our first port on the
east side or across the mountains. Did it really
just start out when it was spreading? Was it
really just to navigable waters? Yeah, Kennewick
was... There was a dam had just... Or a canal
system had just been built that was going to
deliver some barge traffic to central Washington.
And it really was focused on waterborne commerce,
on navigable waters. In 1958, this is... God
cut all this probably, but essentially the legislature
had this industrial development statute that
allowed ports to create industrial development
districts and nobody was doing it because the
requirements were convoluted and it was, you
know, they were plenty busy. I don't know, operating
terminals, et cetera. The legislature changed
several key aspects of that, including eminent
domain in 1958. It led to or in 1955, excuse
me. And by 1958, there were 10 port districts
created east of the mountains, some of them not
on water. And actually, in 1959, the legislature
passed a law saying port districts don't have
to be on water. I think they got tired of being
asked what these, you know, Port of Warden in
Grant County was doing. Right. And those ports.
So back to your initial question. Operating harbors
and terminals for trade and export is still a
defining characteristic, but now ports are primarily
economic development entities. They take, you
know, land that they acquire. They turn it to
productive use by putting utilities, by putting,
you know, roadways. Mostly for industrial purposes,
right? Mostly for industrial purposes. There
has been... recreational elements uh you know
port of the chelan douglas regional port authority
now that then they were known as port of chelan
county um built a pybus public market which is
has since been sold to the Pibus Market Foundation,
operated by them. But it's a public market where
local artisans and food producers sell their
wares. Yeah, located in really the industrial
part of town. Yeah, right down there by the river
in the old apple packing area. And, I mean, that's
a great example, too, of ports taking a former
industry and catalyzing it with some new development.
Kind of creative problem solving different community
to community, but all based on this idea that
the public should benefit from public resources
and that this limited purpose government by virtue
of not having. And this is where we can talk
counties and ports. You all have general purpose
government authorities. You have to care about
wastewater and transit, et cetera. Ports are
limited purpose governments. Our charge is promoting
economic development. It's why I see us now as
natural partners to counties and cities. But
if you look at other parts of the country, oftentimes
a port would be a department of a county or a
city government. So I think over time there have
been instances where a port and their local government
haven't always gotten along because there is
this idea that the port is doing economic development
and the city has to. you know, deal with public
safety. But as of right now, I think the partnership
is strong because we do have these different
roles and we occupy different spaces, but we're
all. serving the same constituency. Yeah, you
know, there are many examples that I'm even aware
of, of ports and counties not getting along Washington
State, right? I'm sure. I mean, I don't know
of any right now, that pop into my brain, you
probably do. We don't need to. Yeah, we certainly
don't think of any, I won't say them. But yeah,
yeah, we certainly don't need to dwell on that.
But that has happened in the past. But in many,
in many ways, you know, I'm more interested in
what you said, which is, you know, what are the
things that we where are, where do our interests
align? And I think that they align in a lot of
ways. I mean, economic development is like the
Holy Grail for most counties, right? And a port
district is geared and developed and focused
specifically on that as an outcome. Economic
development drives revenues for counties, right?
It drives the ability for counties to have good
quality roads, build infrastructure, provide
good services, attract more talent, continue
to build upon that same economic development.
right it's kind of a snowball effect over time
when you get it rolling in the right way down
the right hill um you know not to use a a poor
metaphor but i mean that's kind of the idea and
when you start gaining momentum is when in many
where there is a port you know where the county
and the port are working together you really
can start building that momentum yeah i think
that there needs to be collaboration one thing
we're we're um Working on right now is a conversation
with the State Department of Commerce about how
we do our planning compared to how cities and
counties plan. Now, your members plan under the
Growth Management Act. Our ports have a planning
requirement in our statute that requires them
to adopt comprehensive schemes. We're trying
to bring you under the Growth Management Act
umbrella, baby. Come on. I have accused Paula
of that several times because our ports think
things are going pretty well. The water's just
fine in the pool. Jump on in with us, Eric. Yeah,
more state regulation, please. But really, one
thing I think... that the conversation has turned
up is that most of our ports have a very natural
and regularly occurring conversation with their
counties about planning. Port of Skagit attends
the Skagit Council of Government meeting. And
if they don't, they should. Right. And I believe
they do. And they talk about where the next commercial
center is going to be, about what the population
growth expectations are. In almost all the communities
I've gone and visited, I see a ton of overlap.
Now, you aren't going to agree all the time.
In fact, one of our pieces of feedback to the
Department of Commerce is, short of legislating
required agreement, which you'll never get, things
are working really well. And when we disagree,
we have... ways of mediating that. But I think
what I've learned through observing that process
is that ports, we have every reason to work with
our county and city partners. We need the roadway
system that leads to our facilities to be in
as good of shape as the roads on our facilities.
Yeah, the transportation system has got to be
key to the work that you guys do, right? Yeah,
I think transportation advocacy is an area where
we have really worked together. In fact, your
transportation... advisor meets regularly with
ours, and they meet together with the transportation
chairs of the House and Senate committees because
we have so many aligned interests. I mean, that's
probably the easiest example of partnership.
You necessarily raised a sort of a challenging
conversation about property values, but if ports
are doing our job of attracting new economic
opportunity to a county, that is... increasing
the property value of that county and that's
how all of the local governments base that that's
what all the local governments base their budgets
on so so by the port's action of attracting a
new business or stimulating some new type of
economic development um in theory and i think
in practice it means that all the local governments
in the area benefit because there's more property
value in the community well they do you know
there's a lot to unpack there that you just talked
about. Counties, this is a big issue for us and
it's one that I know we talked about and one
that I wanted to address today because property
taxes was on. was on the agenda this year. It's
been on the agenda for counties and cities for
a long time, and it made it a long ways in a
legislative session. We're only a couple of days
before the end, hopefully, at this point, and
it looks like it's dead from any viable political
kind of point of view. It looks like it's not
going to happen this year, which, to be honest
with you, for counties and cities is a bitter
disappointment. I know that you guys weren't
necessarily thrilled with that particular bill.
or the idea that counties would be able to raise
property taxes higher than they are now. But
the truth of the matter is, is if we're all doing
our job, and if the port, for instance, is doing
its job, like you said, they're attracting more
businesses, they're attracting more industry.
increases property values for everyone, which
actually shares the load, right? Most people
don't understand that your property taxes and
the property taxes that are collected by local
governments are not driven by property values.
They're driven by budgets and statutory limitations.
And when you have more people and more properties
that are of a higher value across the board,
they share that burden versus just a few higher
value properties and a bunch of lower value properties.
And for counties especially, you know, property
taxes, we are the most property tax dependent
government entity in the state. In most cases,
it's at least 50 % of our budget. In other cases
where there's not a lot of retail activity, where
it's a more rural community, it could be 60 to
70 % of their budget. All property taxes, right?
And it's limited to 1 % growth year over year.
If the Ports Association paid you 1 % more. next
year and the next year and the next year and
the next year, you'd go find another job, wouldn't
you? Yeah, well, I love my job and my salary.
Yeah, no, I mean, your point's well taken. And
actually, to that point. WPPA was a partner in
supporting that bill this year and last year.
Which we appreciate. But we weren't as vocal
as cities and counties because some of our ports
don't take the 1%. Right. And I'm not saying
that as a point of pride. Some of our counties
don't. Right. It's either political or it's because,
hey, we had so much new economic activity that
we can meet our budget without taking it. And
I wouldn't judge one way or another. Part of
the reason we joined the coalition was because.
It's not just one year. This is 20 plus years
of that cap. Yeah, 2006, I think. Yeah, so just
under 20 years. And it's really about purchasing
power. So nobody's arguing, even at ports, that
our ability to secure the same services or contract
for the same construction project is increasing
at that same rate. Obviously, it's increasing
significantly faster. So part of why we joined
was an acknowledgement of that. I mean, a podcast
is the only format I can even say this, but you've
just triggered this really challenging messaging,
messaging, I guess, challenge. Wow. Sorry. Which
is how do you communicate to the taxpayer that
that. bringing in more economic activity will
over time reduce their property tax burden because
the local governments can do the services they
need to do and spread it over more taxpayers.
This came up in Everett where Port of Everett
was seeking to expand into Snohomish County.
Port of Everett's not a countywide port district.
It's, I would say one of our, it punches above
its weight, you know, in terms of its, the size
of its, its tax base, its constituents compared
to the scope of its operations, it's totally
an over performer. They were seeking to, expand
into the other parts of Snohomish County. And
I went up and talked with some taxpayers who
said, isn't this going to raise my taxes? I said,
yes, because right now you're not paying at first,
right? But over time - It's the same story. It's
the same exact story. Over time, we'll bring
in this new economic activity, which will raise
values in the district. You and I were just talking
about this the other day, weren't we? We were.
But what we were doing was we were talking about
it in a 10 minute intellectual conversation.
It's so hard to tell somebody, even people who
tend to be open to new taxes or their taxes going
up for schools or something. Maybe they vote
for a local school. The idea of putting a new
line on their tax bill, it was hard for them
to get over. So it's just, there's no, that's
why I joke that a podcast is ideal format because
there's no. 20 -second radio ad or bumper sticker
that says, yes, you're paying more taxes, but
trust me, it's good for you in the long run.
We're from the government. Trust us. Yes. I mean,
I used to think I could convince anyone of everything,
and this job is a great humbler in that regard.
You know, I didn't think we were going to get
into taxes a lot today, but that's actually a
really interesting point and an interesting part
of this conversation. I don't blame people. I
hate taxes. I worked for the government for 10
years as a county commissioner. That was my only
experience working for the government. And I
advocated for things like a flood control zone
district assessment because we had flooding problems.
And I advocated for some new taxes to pay for
different things. And I never felt like I would
ever have been in that position before because
even today, working for this association and
representing local governments, I hate taxes,
right? Everybody hates taxes. But at the same
time, if we want to live in a civilized place,
if we want to have services available to us,
if we want the fire department to come, if we
want the police or law enforcement to come when
we have an emergency, if we want to make sure
that we can get safely to and from, and if we
want to have growth in our communities through
port districts and things like that, we have
to make investments. But you are absolutely right.
I mean, yes, starting a port or having a port
expand into your area. it's going to increase
your taxes at first because you guys have property
taxing authority too, right? Yeah. But those
investments over time should result in actually
a greater sharing of the burden because the property
values should be going up on industrial lands
and other properties that are contributing to
the economy that weren't before. I think the
only way that that actually happens is if some
big development comes in into an area just all
of a sudden and then people actually see that
impact because property taxes won't go up necessarily
because of that because everything's in place.
But now there's this great big development of
high value that's paying a bigger share. And
what you were paying and what I was paying actually
goes down the next year. Yeah, I mean, I think
I wasn't planning on talking about data centers.
But, you know, you just mentioned new facilities.
I was just in Quincy where Port of Quincy was,
I think, our first port or one of our first ports
to work with the tech community to build data
centers in Grant County. And now you drive through
Quincy. Their high school, no exaggeration, looks
like a college campus. It has better sports fields
than I've ever even played on. They have a new
city hall. I think they have a new police station.
And that's all a story about increased property
value in that community, not just due to the
data centers, but due in large part to them.
I think you're right. I think, you know, you
joke that that was your only 10 years working
in government. I've only ever worked in government.
So in my career working in. I think I'm a little
older than you. Yeah. Give me some time. I'll
get out of this government work. Technically,
now we are a nonprofit trade association, but
we represent government entities. And in my career,
I have not seen demands on what people want the
government to deliver. decrease no and especially
when it comes to port districts we always say
our ports are responding to the demand that we
see right in the community and a lot of that
they can do without raising taxes like i said
not all of our ports take their one percent but
there aren't any ports in my membership that
are doing something and saying to the community
you know trust us you'll like this it's all responding
to demand that they see um and so i think that's
when i think about the tax conversation i think
about it through that lens like Nobody wants
to pay higher taxes, but there are things that
people expect their county, city to deliver.
And the things our ports are delivering are things,
I think, and I hope our members are doing a good
job of this, things that their communities are
asking for. Well, and your members, your port
commissioners are elected too, right? Just like
county commissioners. Right. And so if they're
not delivering. they're accountable directly
to the voters right there in their communities.
Yeah. It's another thing that defines our, you
know, I mentioned earlier, a lot of states have
ports that are departments of county government.
You could argue that Washington's port district
system is, you know, the most responsive. Oregon
has a very similar system, but nationally our
two states are different than the norm. And so
I think having the people who are responsible
for investing in that capital infrastructure,
having them directly accountable to the voters
does mean. that the projects they're delivering
are projects that are worked through a public
process, lots of community outreach, real commitment
to open public meetings and transparent decision
-making so that the things that ports build are
things that I believe are supported by the communities
they represent. I think that Quincy example that
you brought up just a second ago is really interesting.
I would love to do, and I think it would be fascinating
to do. kind of a tax study on that community.
And, you know, they've got better facilities.
What'd you say? The high school looked like a
college. Yeah. I heard it's called a junior college.
It does look like you should be doing like the
NFL combine there or something. Yeah. So, but
it would be great to, to see, you know, how the
tax burden has shifted. from the average taxpayer
in that community, right? The average homeowner,
so to speak, the resident versus those data centers
and the overall tax revenue that's being realized
by the community and how they're making those
investments. I don't know for sure, but I think
there's probably a good chance that taxes have
really remained pretty steady, probably, if not
even gone down a little bit for some of those
residents compared to the benefits that they're
getting from those large industrial developments.
Yeah, I would like to... see it too one of our
another of our ports that is doing data center
work has embarked on some of that study work.
So we may, WPPA, we may even have some more information
we can put out on this. But, you know, cliffhanger
for the listener, I think the governor has convened
officially as of a couple weeks ago, their data
center task force. And they're looking at it.
I mean, and you and I could talk about all these
issues. They're all issues we've worked together,
but it's not just about taxes. Obviously, energy
supply is a big issue in that community. Housing
for the people coming to work on building those.
You know, when I got in, to politics 15 years
ago it was right after the great recession and
you you you had to talk about how many jobs a
project was going to create right now if you
say we're going to get the money from what was
the what was the name of that act the american
recovery and reinvestment yeah there you go aka
the obama stimulus package depending on your
political leanings. And one of those line items
in those applications was how many jobs are you
going to retain? How many jobs are you going
to create? Oh, yeah. And I was a low level political
staffer writing, you know, talking points for
a congressman. And you had to say shovel ready.
That was Yeah, you had these words you had to
use. Literally. Now, if you went to a community
said, we're going to bring you 100 jobs, they
would say, where are they going to live? Yeah,
where are we going to put housing has become
almost more of a community imperative than jobs.
And so yeah, I think the data centers, tell a
story about large -scale development from a tax
perspective, from an energy perspective, and
from a jobs perspective. So yeah, lots to go
over. Well, and I feel like with that lead -in,
I could go about seven different directions because
obviously housing is a big issue for us, right?
I mean, counties and cities, local governments,
and the state have been talking about housing
almost ad nauseum, right, for the last several
years as part of trying to find... that magic
key to solving the housing crisis. I have to
imagine it's an issue that you guys think about
too, because if you don't have adequate housing
in an area, how are you going to attract and
house employees for the types of development
that you're looking for? The power issue has
become one that's become a lot more apparent
to our members. We had a really good meeting
earlier this year where we brought in some experts
to talk about transmission. and transmission
capacity and new transmission requirements to
address this whole issue of needing 97 % more
power in the next two decades than we have in
place today, which is a strange place for the
Northwest to be, right? When I was growing up,
we were... power exporters, big -time power exporters.
We were the cheapest place for power because
of our hydroelectric infrastructure. And it's
why we have a lot of the industry we have. Yeah,
especially the tech industry, right? And some
of the big industrial manufacturing that we still
have in place in Washington State in the Northwest.
But the other issue that our members have also
been really focused on that is one that I wanted
to talk to you about that I think dovetails really,
really well with this conversation. around taxes
and the impact of major industrial developments
in particular areas on taxes and the tax base
is energy supply. And as you know, we had a bill,
we had a big effort around this issue this year,
and mostly not just energy supply, but clean
energy development, which of course is the energy
supply development in Washington state, right?
We have the Clean Energy Transformation Act.
We have major goals around greenhouse gas reduction
or emission reductions and things like that.
And a big transition from, you know, Any type
of power production that's either produced or
even sold into Washington State, not being from
fossil fuels, making sure that it's from some
renewable resource. And that's driving a lot
of wind and solar development in Washington State.
Those are major industrial developments in communities.
When one of those actually gets developed, people
do see. a major impact on their share of property
taxes. I've had some of our members, their communities
have built brand new schools just because they
had these huge industrial wind farms or solar
farms locate in their community. But over time,
because of the way those particular projects
are taxed, we discovered this real problem with
a tax shift that was... taking all of that new
growth in the tax base and moving that away from
the projects and on to the local residents and
businesses in the form of small incremental tax
increases over time that actually became double
-digit increases over a longer period of time
of a decade or more. That were being perceived
as being done by the... counties like the commissioners
were having to answer for that right right and
and it really was just a function of the state
tax code and um we had a bill this year house
bill 1960 we had a process during the interim
that you participated in a little bit um and
when that bill came out uh we actually uh we
there was a little bit of friction between yeah
the county's association and the ports association
and i wondered if you could talk about that a
little bit yeah i mean it's a In other words,
you're in our podcast. What were you doing? What
were you doing, Eric? Why were you so pissed
at me, Eric? How come you don't like counties,
Eric? I think, honestly, one of the reasons Paul
was able to convince me to come do this podcast
is because this is all I've ever done, worked
in politics. And you have to have friendships
that withstand. policy disagreements or even
that get through what's perceived as a disagreement.
I don't think we ever actually fully disagreed
with the intent of what you were trying to do.
It was just that some of the mechanics of it.
generated phone calls from members my members
to me so right so yeah like paul says i joined
these um task force meetings all of last summer
i was i would walk the dog and listen to the
this just the densest energy conversation in
my headphones when you say walk the dog you mean
you were literally out walking your dog a couple
of times they were very long meetings and my
dog needs a lot of exercise it wasn't the yo
-yo thing or anything yeah it was actually out
with your dog well and you know as in this virtual
world if you're in a three -hour meeting about
energy policy and your computer's in front of
you, you might start, I don't know, answering
other emails. So I don't want to expose my attention
span issues here. But no, I mean, the reason
I joined is because I completely acknowledged
the challenge that you'd put forward. I mean,
it's kind of a fun thing about, you asked about
working in politics, like there's just new ideas
coming out every day. And this was totally a...
Function of our state's push to develop more
clean energy. Something that our members, my
members, are mostly involved with from the siting
side. A lot of our ports, you know, politically,
we're all over the map. Right. Just like our
members. Right, just like your members. But everybody
wants to build projects. We had ports that were
looking at putting in sustainable aviation fuel
facilities, ports that were looking at battery
storage facilities. So they were very interested.
Probably solar too, right? Yeah. Yeah, although
that's, I'm not sure if there's any ports that
are actively developing solar, but any kind of
new industry, you know, they call, the developers
call commerce, commerce calls ports and say,
do you have 100 acres or however much power?
So we were very invested in the development side.
And as the issue was framed to me, the tax shift
risked disincentivizing development. So that
was the, you know, the... spirit with which i
joined the conversation was hey we want these
developments to continue right a and then b our
members were calling our association and saying
hey we don't have enough power we want to bring
a new entity in here and they need x amount of
power and we don't have it right so so our interest
in that was at least twofold which was how can
we you know continue developing new projects
and how we can make how can we make sure that
other types of economic development, you know,
manufacturing, whatever, has the energy it needs
to site here in Washington. Well, these projects
certainly considered, you know, the benefit that
they were receiving from the, because what was
happening was that tax shift was occurring because
it was, most of their value was classified as
personal property and they were able to depreciate
that. That's it. enormous financial benefit for
these projects right and so you know they don't
they don't want to lose that opportunity and
we want to fix this problem with the tax shift
so how do you make sure that you don't lose that
benefit that they were getting to disincentivize
like you're saying new developments while still
making sure that this tax shift no longer occurs
i mean that's kind of the needle that we're trying
to thread here and that's you and i were i was
trying to thread that needle with you i mean
like and that's why i think it's interesting
where we arrived at and where we are now, because
starting in those conversations last summer,
I totally saw the value to our members for fixing
this problem that you all your members had identified.
And then when the bill came out this January,
as you can attest, I called you and I said, hold
on a second, this would require ports to adjust
their tax levy. Now, we had a very fun intellectual
conversation about what actually constitutes
independent taxing authority. But the bill as
written, in order to solve one element of the
tax shift, did have a provision that would have
required junior taxing districts to adjust their
levy. Oh, embarrassing. Sorry. We never disagreed
actually about whether that was an appropriate
solution to the problem. It's just that to my
members, they saw words on a page that said,
you will reduce your tax levy. Yeah, without
context. And I got a bunch of phone calls, right?
So that was one of the phone calls I got. I can
only imagine. And then the other one I got was
people saying, this isn't going to create more
energy development. You know, there were people
looking at it that thought, oh my God, this is
going to be... make it more challenging to develop
clean energy projects. So on the one hand, I'm
telling my members like, no, no, no. Paul and
the crew work in this and the representative
who brought it forward are trying to prevent
a situation in which counties are prohibiting
new clean energy projects or taking some sort
of aggressive corrective action. So I was. Even
though at some point we were maybe opposed or
neutral or testifying to concerns with your bill,
we never disputed the problem you were trying
to solve. And it was just the mechanism. And
that's kind of why in Olympia you have to stay.
Like we could have just signed in con and said,
screw you, Paul. And we knew counties were out
to get us all along. You wouldn't be the first.
Right. But we kept talking about it. And I think
in the end. We're modeling good behavior here.
We are trying. We're modeling good behavior.
Kicking each other under the table. is how you
work out political disputes but really i mean
it's it's kind of the role of our trade association
a port sees a bill hit the interest sheet and
they call and they say oh my god what that what
is this what you know and we say hold on we've
been in these conversations this isn't out of
the blue um so i i don't know where we are now
because i'm not i think the bill is not gonna
go no obviously not yeah yeah but we're way too
we're way too far into the session now yeah but
i think that we we've at least sort of i don't
know at least i i I'm kind of processing in real
time, although I knew we would talk about this,
but we've definitely exposed some of the issues
that we'll need to communicate with our members
about, you know, like if we're, if we're doing
this, this interim, I'll bring a couple of ports
with me and say, Hey, rather than just me attending
these meetings, how about you guys come? And
then that way, when. They talk about the tax
shift because we even had a member who engaged
with you at a panel presentation we were on.
A couple weeks ago. She had had a different experience
with the perceived benefits or not of having
a large -scale renewable energy development in
their community. I thought that was a really
productive conversation. I only witnessed half
of it. But from that, I learned that it's not
universal. Different communities had different
experiences. Well, and everybody brings their
own bias, right? They bring their own bias to
every single conversation. that was a really
good conversation with that lady. And I don't
remember her name, but I know she was from Garfield
or Columbia, Port of Columbia, Jenny Dickinson,
20 year executive director of the Port of Columbia.
And, and she really, she came from the chamber
world too. So she's steeped in economic development.
And she, like I said, had a more positive perception
of how a big energy development had benefited
that County. And, and she interpreted what I
was saying about the tax shift as being anti.
clean energy, anti -wind, anti -whatever. And
that's not even close to the case. What we're
trying to solve is, and you hit on it, we're
trying to prevent a much worse outcome in the
future because now that we have unearthed this
problem, now that we have daylighted kind of
the situation, it's becoming pretty widely known.
And if you're a county commissioner and you know
this is going to happen in your community, if
a large scale solar or wind project locates there,
right, that that the way the tax code is situated
today, your community is guaranteed, right? Your
individual residents are guaranteed to see major
tax increases on their property taxes in the
future just for the privilege of hosting these
projects? Wouldn't you fight like crazy to prevent
that from happening? Even if you agreed with
what the... what the project was creating, you
know, clean energy. Right. I think that was one
really interesting thing. You know, the less
legislatively inclined listener won't understand
that you don't want to introduce a bill just
to stimulate conversation. I mean, you went through
a ton of work just to have some conversations,
but I imagine you learned a ton about how people.
view these types of development just in the way
they reacted to their bill. And I got calls from
people who thought your bill was either a designed
to stop clean energy projects from happening
if they were on the, if that was their political
leaning or people on the exact other side of
the spectrum who called and said, how dare they
put the finger on the scale of clean energy development?
I mean, that tells you that the bill that people
are reacting in real time. Like people didn't
even have time to sort of retreat to their standard
policy positions because it was such a new idea
that you brought forward. So I do think there
was benefit to the conversation, even if the
bill doesn't pass, because now at least next
session, I won't have to say, trust me, Paul's
not trying to screw us because I think we got
that out of the way. Well, you know, interestingly
enough, Eric, we had the same exact. reaction
from your commissioners from our commissioners
so what what we so the way this whole thing developed
was um you know we we work in all kinds of policy
areas just like you do right all All year round,
we're working in policy areas. And I just started
to have some conversations with some of the counties
and really their economic development offices
that had more of these projects over time, specifically
Clickitat, Kittitas, a couple others. And they
started to tell me about, you know, we're seeing
these weird tax things. We're getting complaints
from taxpayers and they're seeing these big increases.
And we're limited to a 1 % increase per year,
so we're not sure what's happening. And then
someone said, you know what, I think it is. I
think it's these. And I said, you're kidding
me. And so we started. gathering data and we
started looking at it over about a year and a
half and then i put together a team of just myself
and travis dutton our policy uh coordinator here
i just got to meet it was like meeting a celebrity
i'd seen him on zoom for 20 hours i'm like oh
my god it's you you're taller than i yeah he's
got five by five by eight glossies if you if
you bring a sharpie he'll okay all right i'll
get some autographs on the way out but uh and
so you know travis and i we just got together
with eric johnson who was our director at the
time we like to call him eric counties johnson
because the director of the ports association
at the same time was eric ports johnson so yeah
and then of course there was you know the TV
anchor Eric Johnson. Speaking of needing trading
cards to keep track of it all. Yeah. Come on,
guys. Pick a different name for goodness sakes.
Anyways, Travis and I came to Eric. I said, hey,
we've kind of unearthed this problem. I want
to investigate it more. I think we need a white
paper. And he said, well, tell me more about
it. So I just kind of laid it out for him. He
says, okay, let's put together, let's see what
it would look like and let's see if it's worthy.
So I put Travis to work doing most of the research
and he and I worked on the white paper and we
published it. december of 2023 and uh it hit
our members um and i i can tell you there were
some that were not happy you know there were
some that really saw it as anti -clean energy
right and then i had a whole other group who
saw it as anti -clean energy in the way they
wanted it to be right they were like yeah we're
gonna use this we knew that they were Jacking
us down with clean energy. And then the other
group was, what are you doing? You know, we want
to be, we want to be environmentally friendly.
We want to reduce greenhouse gas emissions. We
want to, you know, fight climate change. You're
hurting our opportunities. We had to sit both
sides down and say, you guys are both reading
this wrong, right? This is just about a tax problem.
This is a tax issue. And I don't care if you're
clean energy, you know, if you're pro clean energy,
you're not clean, pro clean energy, you know,
if you're pro -clean energy, you want to solve
this problem. Because if we're going to meet
our goals for greenhouse gas emission reduction
long term and for clean energy long term, we're
going to need 10 to 20 times the amount of projects
that we have on the ground today. I mean, statistics
are already showing we need twice as much power,
right? And you're never going to get it if these
communities are faced with this problem. And
if you're anti -clean energy or you don't like
these projects, well, guess what? You live in
a state. whose policy is to build them. And you
might as well solve this problem so that this
impact doesn't, you know. hit your communities
the way that it could, and you can get some benefits
out of it at the same time. Yeah. I mean, you're
sort of the victim, I think, of being at this
phase of policymaking, like you said, where these
clean energy laws are the law of the land. We
have these targets. And so now it's about trying
to meet them. And for my members, it's, like
I said earlier, about having energy available.
Really, they're singularly focused on, we have
somebody who wants to bring 100 jobs to Grant
County. Can we provide them the wattage to bring
them? that manufacturing facility here. So they're
almost agnostic on the sort of big policy questions
of 2020, 2021 that the legislature confronted
and then passed laws to resolve. So we almost,
I mean, we can't get away from talking about
those. We're in a political world. We represent,
we work for elected officials, but your policy
sort of uncovered one of the first symptoms or
I don't know what you want to call it, externalities
of this transition to clean energy economy. And
you were essentially thanked by an angry public
who said, what the hell? People who said you're
wrong or you're making a political statement
and sitting next to you on the stage and you're
saying, I guarantee this will cause your taxes
to go up. I'm looking at people in the audience.
I'm thinking like some of these people think
he's just that that's a talking point. No, I
had been through all your hours and hours of
Zoom meetings. to know that like you had done
the research to determine that that was actually
happening. And so, yeah, maybe with one session
behind us and next year. You'll have gotten,
gotten through some of that. What I would call
like a political reaction. Yeah. And then you
can get more policy feedback. I think probably
half the feedback you got this year was, and
even some of the feedback I got on your bill
was like, what the hell you're touching our tax
levy. And, and so I think maybe with a year,
a year, hence you, you'll have a different policy
reaction. Well, we knew, we definitely knew it
was not a single. session issue right i mean
just the education on it uh you know your members
had the same reaction that my members had right
um and you were at the table yeah and we still
have work to do with your members we still have
work to do with a lot of other constituencies
not to mention just the legislators trying to
get them kind of up to speed so uh we we're pretty
confident because because the data is on our
side, that we're going to find a way through
this. And we definitely want to work with you
guys to make that happen. Well, I wonder, I mean,
I'm... I'm going to take control of this podcast
for a second and just say like, so awesome. I'm
going to sit back. Yeah, don't worry. It's a
short lead in. One thing my members I think are
surprised about leaving session is that there
has not been a raft of new policies adopted by
the legislature to address what we see as energy
supply concerns. You hear it called resource
adequacy, energy supply. Yeah, there's really
just one bill, right? 5466. A transmission bill
has survived, but it has had probably its most
substantial provision removed. Yeah. Categorical
exclusion for transmission siting. And for my
members who thought that, I mean, the chairs
of the environmental committees went to Central
Washington and had, you know, remote committee
hearings to talk about this. We thought that
was a real acknowledgement of the scale of the
challenge. I don't think that it wasn't. I just
think that it was hard to get anything done on
energy policy in this session. So when I go back
out to meet with my members after session, there
will be people who say, we thought that there
were going to be five to 10 bills passed to make
more supply possible, whether clean or not. It's
just the energy of every room just got sucked
out from the budget, don't you think? Yeah, I
think the budget overtook everything. Yeah. But
I wonder if, you know, going back to your House
Bill 1960 or to the clean energy tax shift concern
in general, and maybe you don't know yet, but
did you get enough openness from like clean energy
advocates that you could put that? as part of
a package like will you be able to message that
as pro energy development going forward like
if the legislature is putting together a package
of bills next session and say saying hey these
five things taken together will put us on the
path we need to be on can you be part of that
conversation you know that's a really interesting
conversation it's you know For us, it's a vexing
political question because we definitely have
members kind of like you do that are on one side
or on the other where clean energy development
is concerned, right? And so I don't know that
– I think that you could easily take a look at
what we're trying to accomplish and say, you
know, if I'm just being totally honest, if you
wanted to from your kind of – perspective or
your own bias say yeah this is this is pro this
is pro clean energy development because we're
solving a problem you know that's hurting communities
and we don't want to do that right if if these
communities are going to have these facilities,
we want to make sure they're getting benefits
from it, not getting hurt financially. So in
that way, you could. But I definitely have members
who wouldn't be in favor of a bill like that,
that was positioned that way. Interesting. So
the messaging could lose you supporters or gain
you supporters. Yeah, I think it could. And so
I think our biggest interest is really just solving
the problem. Yeah. Right. And letting the communities
kind of decide for themselves their own position
on pro or con energy development. But but, you
know, from an association point of view, knowing
what we know and knowing what the issue is. trying
to do our job and solve that issue. So those
communities that want clean energy development
have a cleaner pathway to it. And those who don't
can, you know, they can fight on other issues
because this, you know, no longer is an issue.
clean energy development is forced upon them
because the state can do that, right, through
the Energy Facility Siding Evaluation Council,
that they don't have this cost burden to deal
with, right? Well, this could take us a whole
other hour, and I'm sure you want to cover other
things, but you've just hit on two other things
that that bill exposed, which is we all, as representing
these local government trade associations, we
had to sort of take stock about what... independence
really means like my first reaction was hey we
have independent taxing authority and you said
yeah except it's given to you by the state right
so the state can tinker with our taxing authority
right by an act of the legislature so really
good to be conscious of that and then i think
the bill maybe initially had some zoning um requirements
that that would have been put on counties and
so local governments as you know historically
have authority over zoning yeah but it's been
given to them by the legislature so it was a
reminder that like you know your independence
is only as good as a majority in the legislature
allows it to be right so yeah it was extremely
uh eye -opening from that perspective it is very
interesting and and it's one of the things that
we talk about a lot is how counties are really
at arm of the state legislature, right? I mean,
we are, along with cities, the entities that
are probably most responsible for implementing
the policies that the legislature passes. And
most of the authorities that we're given are
really only what the legislature says that we
have. Now, there have been some attorney general
opinions and some Supreme Court rulings recently
that have kind of gone a little bit beyond that
and said, well, you know, if the state's silent
on something, then yeah, counties and cities,
you know, can. kind of legislate, they can regulate
in those areas, where in the past, I don't think
that was the general understanding. So things
have changed a little bit there. But you're right.
I mean, you know, there's, it does bring to light
some of those questions in a pretty meaningfully,
you know, a pretty meaningful way, more so than
I think a lot of people appreciate until you
start, you know, sifting through that. You kind
of mentioned, you know, taxing authority. You
also mentioned, you know, zoning and land use
authority. Uh, just pivoting a little bit kind
of away from taxes and energy at the moment.
You don't want to talk about taxes anymore. All
right. Yeah. But well, I mean, it's so, it's
a big part of what you do, right? It's a big
part of what we do. Uh, but another big part
of what we do that I think you guys have a really
big interest in is land use authority. Right.
Um, I, I saw. I think another LinkedIn posts
where you were out on the road advocating for
industrial land preservation. If I'm not, is
that the right way to characterize it? I joked
that I was. Getting tired of the Washington State
Legislature, so I spent some time up at the Seattle
City Council this spring. And it's an issue I've
been involved with since I got to the Port of
Seattle. It invokes my Portland Trailblazers
fandom because in Seattle there has been a decade
-long fight about zoning around the sports stadiums.
Sort of kicked off by the idea that a new basketball
stadium would be built next to the Mariners and
the Seahawks' existing stadiums. And, you know,
I'm trying to decide. Which direction to go?
Because it is a political issue I care deeply
about and am very involved in. I'll just say
maybe that one thing we've learned is that the
city of Seattle's experience with zoning around
the port is not unique to Seattle. Ports tend
to operate in areas that are preserved for industrial
development. That is in itself an acknowledgement
that. industrial development is often incompatible
with residential and mixed -use retail, et cetera,
type development. So our ports have historically
been strong advocates in maintaining that preservation
of industrial lands away from population centers
without saying because they're terrible or just
because supporting the... The success of an industrial
area does mean making it easier for trucks to
get in, making it less likely that people will
complain about light from manufacturing operations
that go into the evening. Or noise. Or noise.
Noise pollution is a big issue. Motors. The independence,
the purview of land use as a city and county
item has always been something, like we started
talking about at the beginning, where ports have
had to have... positive relationships with their
local government partners because the county
could adopt a comprehensive plan or the city
could adopt a comprehensive plan that makes it
more challenging for ports to do their work.
Now, what I was up in Seattle testifying vociferously
against, and I don't mind going on record here
because I'll go on record anywhere, is by placing
900 units of what were described as workforce
housing, but it's a term I don't necessarily...
Now, this was in the Soho area, right? This is,
yeah, Soto down by directly across the street.
Or Soto, yeah. Soto, yeah. You're thinking about
the East Coast. I was. But I was making the point,
as were all the other industrial import advocates,
that putting housing directly across the street
from an international container terminal would
make it more difficult to get Washington's export
goods. out to our export markets in Asia. We
were in the end unsuccessful in part because
the terminal in question is not currently occupied
by a terminal operator. But I would say that
that teaches you another lesson, which is that
industrial areas aren't always humming with activity.
You may be between one manufacturing operation
and another. But the idea that it could be rezoned
just because it's vacant for a time is completely
counter to the idea of preserving industrial
lands for industrial use. You know, what we say
in Seattle is that like 10... percent or less
of the land in the city is preserved for industrial
use, yet it generates an outsized proportion
of the jobs in the city and revenue, the revenue,
the tax revenue that the city relies on. So,
yeah, we were unsuccessful in that. There was
a conditional use granted, which may lead to
some residential development down in that historically
industrial area. But from my seat at the State
Trade Association, almost I was there because
we see this happening in other areas, too. This
is not just a Seattle issue. You know, Everett
has taken a really proactive approach where their
port has a large public marina on the West Coast.
They have restaurants and residential down on
the water. But by pursuing it in one specific
area, the port has sought to prevent it from
encroaching on their industrial area. So different
ports take different approaches to how they will
manage this incompatibility between industrial
operations and the things that general purpose
governments do, like building housing for people
who need housing. But it is, I think, an area
that will get more challenging as well. Washington
grows. So this is a fascinating topic to me,
and it will be for most of our members as well,
just because we are land use nerds. I mean, we
geek out on GMA stuff. If we don't, it's pretty
hard to be an effective county commissioner.
Yeah, it's one of the great things you get to
do to promote success in your community. And
it's one of our biggest risk areas as well, because
as you know, the GMA itself has a lot of built
-in opportunity for third -party appeals with
very little standing. requirements, all kinds
of things that communities can get wrapped around
the axle on. And if we don't do it properly,
there are stiff penalties associated with access
to really important economic development funds
like public works assistance grants and things
like that that can help build the infrastructure
that, oh, I don't know, maybe a port district
needs. Yeah, we need roads leading to our port
terminals for sure. But when we're talking about
preserving types of land, it's not just industrial
lands that we deal with, right? We are also very
responsible and cognizant of preserving things
like resource lands for agriculture or for timber
or for mining. Right. We also have airports.
Right. Where we have to build kind of zones around
for protection of the airport. We have central
public facilities, prisons and, you know, all
of those. We have to locate garbage dumps, wastewater
facilities, the things that you don't want people
living next to your entity, your, your. your
counties and my ports are responsible for building.
Another one that we spend a lot of time on in
some communities is military bases, military
installations. And, you know, how do you properly
zone around those types of facilities so that
you're not impeding the long -term goals and
operations of those facilities with different
types of land use activities? And, you know,
there are best practices in place. There are
best practices in place for airports, for sure,
depending on the type of activity that the airport
has. airport has or the type of growth projection
that you want the airport to have. Because there's,
I mean, there's SeaTac, right? And then there's
Bowers Field and Kittitas County, right? They're
not the same thing. But there's SeaTac and then
there's, you know, Moses Lake. They're also not
the same thing, right? But they could be, right?
Moses Lake could be a lot bigger than it is because
it's built to do that at some point in the future.
You know, there's, you know, Small military bases
and then very large military bases. There's highly
developed military bases like JBLM. And then
there's the Yakima Training Center, right, which
are completely different. So how do you manage
around those things? Are there best practices
in place around port districts and industrial
lands that you kind of go out and share when
you're on these road trips or making comments?
Or is that maybe an area that there's a gap?
That we should be focusing on as associations
to try to develop. Yeah, I mean, I think that
I'll start with the last part because there is
a gap. I mean, I think part of our challenge,
not unique to my time at the Public Reports Association,
but one of the things our association has tried
to help our members with over time is communicating
the value of the work that you do to your community.
Because it's really easy to drive by a lay down
yard for a... big construction project and think
oh my god look at this industrial blight yeah
it's so ugly unless you understand what it's
meant to support you know maybe that's the site
that we're going to get a cool new manufacturing
facility where my uncle's going to go work right
right and um our ports have historically just
wanted to do their work without a lot of public
attention and you know in seattle that that's
kind of impossible in the bigger communities
it's it's a challenge you know port of tacoma
everyone drives by the port of tacoma every day
But other ports have had a better, you know,
you mentioned Moses Lake. There are ports who
have, I would say, enjoyed more support from
their communities because they're further away,
right? Yeah. As population grows, that's no longer
going to be the case. And so one thing WPPA tries
to do is work with our members to say like, hey,
you just experienced a great success. You just
got a grant from. the federal government to build
a new rail line that's going to make it easier
for your ag producers to get their goods out
of the port. That's a great story. Tell people
about it because otherwise they're going to say,
how come there's twice as many rail cars rolling
through our community? So yeah, you asked if
there's a gap. I think there's definitely a gap.
I think that the other challenge that we face
is that it is, I don't know, maybe it's... a
part of modern times, but there just does seem
to be more of a disconnect between how people
live their lives and what our ports do. I mean,
I'm not going to get on a soapbox, but like,
you know, air cargo at SEA airport, by the way,
it's been rebranded. Can't say SeaTac anymore.
Oh, you can't? It's now SEA. You know, you got
PDX, you got SEA, JFK, et cetera. So it's not,
but yeah, but PDX is still Portland. Yeah, I
know. But it's the call letters. Don't get me
started. I just had to say that because, you
know, my Port of Seattle overlords. call me and
say, how dare you? But yeah, SEA airport has
seen a huge increase in air cargo. A lot of that
is driven by small package delivery. I'm still
going to call it SeaTac. Yeah, I know. You won't
be the only one. Plus the Tacoma people don't
want us dropping the tack. Can we talk about
how much it costs to park there? Can we talk
about that? You know, I'll talk about any element
because I don't work for the Port of Seattle
anymore, but I'll tell you, former certain Senate
majority leader, when I went into his office
to introduce myself, I said, I represent Port
of Seattle. Is there anything? He said, explain
to me why it is so expensive to buy a beer at
SeaTac Airport. So I'll let you figure out which
one that was. But yeah, we get asked all kinds
of questions. But I mean, consumer behavior drives
what ports do. So going back to my earlier point,
like there's no port that's just building a transload
facility because they like the idea of having
a bunch of stinky trucks delivering. boxes to
loud clanking steel rail cars. They're doing
it because agriculture is the lifeblood of the
central Washington economy. And getting boxes
to market quicker improves people's quality of
life. SEA Airport, haha, is expanding. Not because
they want that C -TAC, but like they're responding
to public demand. So it's a, you know, JFK, not
the airport. The U .S. president talked about
the public education process. And I said earlier,
you don't want to be in a position of saying
this is good for you. Trust us. But it is a matter
of communicating that what we do, what you do
is responding to population growth. It's responding
to changing consumer behavior. It's responding
to global economic trends. And so. I think we
confront a challenge where poor districts, because
we're these limited purpose governments, we're
viewed as almost semi -private or serving private
industry. And so as we confront this communication
challenge, we try to emphasize that what we're
doing is responding to public demand to serve
the communities that our commissioners represent
the same way your commissioners are doing their
jobs. I feel like there's a lot more to talk
about. Yeah, that was a long one. Yeah, on that
particular issue. Let's do a separate podcast
on land use and industrial lands preservation.
I feel like we could work out some best practices
right now. It just feels like there needs to
be some transition zones. Depending on the size
of the industrial complex, the size of the port
perhaps, there needs to be these transitional
zones where maybe it's light industrial and then
retail and commercial. different types of residential
housing just to maintain those buffers. And some
of those ports that, like you mentioned, like
Moses Lake, where encroachment really hasn't
happened, they have great opportunity to make
sure that that sort of stuff is in place right
now before they get that other pressure that
the Port of Seattle and others are feeling. And
because of another pressing problem, you get
that a space is empty for a while and they automatically
rezone it, transition to a different use. Yeah,
but you're hitting on one of our well -worn political
concerns, which is permanence of any zoning decision.
Transition zones, great idea. What corporate
name shall we call it? When Safeco Field was
built, to show my age. I prefer the name. And
then Quest Field. Those were built in a zoned
industrial area. So as you can imagine, the Port
of Seattle and the ag growers in central Washington
were saying, how the heck are we going to get
our trucks to Terminal 46 if there's two giant
stadiums there? Right. Especially on game day.
So there was this brilliant idea called a Stadium
Transition Area Overlay District. district where
there could be limited applications of retail.
Now I really am on my soapbox. Retail, the Silver
Cloud Hotel right across from T -Mobile, but
no residential. And that was a compromise. It
was a compromise that was struck over long, difficult
conversations in the early 2000s. And then guess
what? In 2015, when Chris Hansen wanted to put
a basketball arena down there, he said, just
a little bit of housing. We said, as a compromise,
maybe the port would compromise. And we said,
We already compromised. But it was 15 years ago.
None of the city council members are the same.
None of the port commissioners are the same.
Politics change. And so the idea of a transition
area is great until that transition area moves
over three blocks and then moves over three blocks.
And nobody remembers what the original transition
area was. So, I mean, I think permanence is key.
You know, ports need permanence in order to attract.
terminal operator to say, hey, we can guarantee
you that this will stay free of pedestrian traffic
for your trucks. And so I think that's the key
in zoning for ports is that permanence. And that's,
you know, going back to the very beginning of
this conversation, unless you want to amend GMA
to sort of require that local governments agree,
then the best practice is communication. I mean,
I think. The ports that I've heard success stories
from in the zoning arena are ports that talk
all the time with their cities and their counties.
The counties know what their projects are coming
forward in their comp plan. We at the Port of
Seattle got to that place with the Harrell administration
early on. There was real harmony between the
city and the port. You're talking about Seattle
Mayor Bruce Harrell? Seattle Mayor Bruce Harrell.
And there have been historically better and worse.
phases of and i would say that's the same across
all of our members it's very personality dependent
so you know, you and I both worked in politics.
Like I have your phone number. You called me
to tell me you were bringing that energy bill
forward. I'll call you if so. So it's about communication
and that's a pretty boring best practice, but
maybe it's fitting for a podcast. Yeah, it probably
is. You know, we've been going for over an hour.
Yeah. I can't, you know, you were nervous about
coming in here. Didn't think we'd have anything
to talk about. And now I'm worried we will never
stop. I was going to say that last like two minutes
brought up about seven different questions that
I thought, well, I could add. this i could add
that we haven't talked about housing or transportation
oh my god we could keep going and i'm supposed
to be making chicken noodle soup for my wife
didn't i tell you that you did because she's
not feeling very good i want some of that chicken
noodle soup too and you totally got off the hook
i didn't even get a chance to bring up tariffs
yeah so my tariff answer is quick and i'll tell
anybody who listens like People want to know
what the impact of tariff changes on ports are
going to be. The short answer is we don't know.
The slightly less short answer is, but we're
still dealing with the fallout from the 2017,
2018 tariffs. I can't tell you what's going to
happen with the new tariffs. I can tell you that
our ag exports to China are still down 40 % from
2018. I was going to say we're still down like
30, 40%, right? And our ports without a tariff.
without tariff upheaval are still being out -competed
by ports in Canada, where the government in Canada
is literally investing with the intention of
taking boxes out of Washington ports and putting
them in Canadian ports. So those dynamics are
already in play, and they're not being made any
easier by the tariffs. So we don't know exactly
what the numerical impacts of the current tariff
regime is going to be, but we know it's going
to compound all the challenges our ports are
already facing. And that's about as simple as
I can put it. Well, it's a good way to end the
podcast, although I think, again, that just adds
more questions to the list. I think people want
to know, though, what is your chicken soup recipe?
God, I can't give it all away. Your wife's not
feeling well. Yeah. You mentioned that you had
to get out of here so you could go make her chicken
soup. I think that was all before I started.
the podcast yeah not mistaken well i was lamenting
that the one cure to three hours you said it
took to make this yeah and that that's kind of
the quick workaround and the problem is is that
she now you know you want your wife to like your
cooking right but what if she likes it so much
that the second she gets a sniffle it's like
all right off to the chicken soup factory with
you so the key is um i roast a bunch of peppers
in the oven Like Anaheim peppers, Serrano pepper,
and jalapeno peppers. And then, you know, you're
always making a chicken soup with the onions,
celery, and carrots. I add these peppers in for
the stewing portion so that it makes it a spicier
broth. And I think it adds a little bit of depth
to the broth. So do you use the whole chicken?
Do you use chicken bones? Boil the whole chicken.
And then if you have three hours, you can take
out the chicken once it's done cooking and then
put all the bones back in and let that go while
you do the rest of your prep. And then you get
something. approximating bone broth i mean i'm
sure like everybody else you know i during the
pandemic when i was stuck at home because i wasn't
allowed to go into the port offices i looked
up how to make bone broth and i said who's got
time for that but this is a during the pandemic
this is a quicker version uh i'm not using it
as an excuse i really enjoyed this and um i mean
i should just say like i think it's nice to work
with people that you get along with that you
respect um you and i could probably confront
bigger issues than we confronted in house bill
1960 but i think given the how the session has
worked out you and i and and hopefully people
listening and our members will want us to keep
working on some of these problems. Yeah, likewise.
It's been a great relationship so far. I'm so
glad you came to do the podcast. I hope you'll
come back. I think we have a lot of things to
talk about, especially legislatively, but otherwise.
And it's just so important that counties and
ports really understand one another, what they
do and how they can. collaborate together to
get better outcomes than if they were just operating
alone. I think that really is key. And I know
not even all of our counties have ports. That's
a whole other line of questioning that I was
going to go into. 33 out of 39. How do you get
a port if you don't have one? And what if you
want more than one? And I mean, there's so many
other things to talk about, but you've got to
go make chicken soup. I get it. Tell your wife
that I hope she feels better soon. Thank you.
And thanks for having me on. All right. Thanks,
Eric. Cool. Thanks for tuning in to County Connection.
Stay in the loop by subscribing to us through
your preferred podcasting app and following us
on LinkedIn, Facebook and Instagram. And don't
forget to join the hub, your go to source for
the latest news and updates from the Washington
State Association of Counties. Until next time,
stay connected and stay informed.