WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:02.080 Is a ragtag group worse than a motley crew? I 00:00:02.080 --> 00:00:04.000 don't know. They definitely hang out together. 00:00:04.200 --> 00:00:07.080 Yeah, ragtag is more of a, you know, almost appearance 00:00:07.080 --> 00:00:09.140 versus a motley crew is more of a behavioral 00:00:09.140 --> 00:00:11.859 thing. That's true. Yes. I was more thinking 00:00:11.859 --> 00:00:15.400 of that guy Urban's hat, but yeah. All right. 00:00:15.480 --> 00:00:16.800 Should we get this thing started? Let's do it. 00:00:19.120 --> 00:00:21.579 Welcome to County Connection, the official podcast 00:00:21.579 --> 00:00:23.879 of the Washington State Association of Counties, 00:00:23.879 --> 00:00:26.280 where we dive into the legislative issues shaping 00:00:26.280 --> 00:00:28.719 the future of our communities. From budgets to 00:00:28.719 --> 00:00:31.660 public safety, infrastructure to elections, we'll 00:00:31.660 --> 00:00:34.299 break down what's happening in Olympia and how 00:00:34.299 --> 00:00:36.280 it impacts counties from across the Evergreen 00:00:36.280 --> 00:00:39.399 State. Stay informed, stay engaged, and join 00:00:39.399 --> 00:00:41.960 us as we amplify the voice of Washington's 39 00:00:41.960 --> 00:00:46.969 counties. Welcome everybody to the County Connection 00:00:46.969 --> 00:00:49.549 Podcast. I'm Paul Jewell, your host and Government 00:00:49.549 --> 00:00:51.770 Relations Director for the Washington State Association 00:00:51.770 --> 00:00:54.270 of Counties. I've got a special guest today, 00:00:54.409 --> 00:00:57.229 somebody I just drug on off the street. It's 00:00:57.229 --> 00:00:59.710 good to see you, Eric Fitch. Good to be here. 00:00:59.850 --> 00:01:02.409 Yeah, thanks for coming in. Eric is the Executive 00:01:02.409 --> 00:01:04.510 Director for the Washington Public Ports Association. 00:01:04.530 --> 00:01:06.930 I am. How are things going over there with the 00:01:06.930 --> 00:01:10.530 ports? Things are going well. Port world is generally 00:01:10.530 --> 00:01:13.540 a positive one, although now... All anyone wants 00:01:13.540 --> 00:01:15.680 to ask me about is tariffs. I realize now you're 00:01:15.680 --> 00:01:17.700 going to ask me about tariffs, but I'd say it's 00:01:17.700 --> 00:01:21.019 good with a slight pause and caveat that the 00:01:21.019 --> 00:01:23.189 global economy is somewhat up in the air. Yeah, 00:01:23.209 --> 00:01:26.469 I imagine with what's going on nationally, you 00:01:26.469 --> 00:01:29.650 guys are pretty busy thinking about some of the 00:01:29.650 --> 00:01:31.909 impacts and implications and the long -term effects 00:01:31.909 --> 00:01:34.090 that you're going to be dealing with, I'm sure, 00:01:34.109 --> 00:01:36.510 for a while. But what I want to talk about today 00:01:36.510 --> 00:01:38.310 and what we've been focusing on in this podcast 00:01:38.310 --> 00:01:40.969 for the last couple months is really the Washington 00:01:40.969 --> 00:01:43.310 State legislative session. You and I have been 00:01:43.310 --> 00:01:45.609 working together for a while now legislatively 00:01:45.609 --> 00:01:47.549 here in Olympia, and I kind of want to get into 00:01:47.549 --> 00:01:51.170 that a little bit. But I also want our members 00:01:51.170 --> 00:01:53.430 to get to know you. because I bet a lot of them 00:01:53.430 --> 00:01:56.129 don't know you. And I think that knowing the 00:01:56.129 --> 00:01:58.170 Ports Executive Director and really just being 00:01:58.170 --> 00:02:00.030 familiar with the Ports Association in general 00:02:00.030 --> 00:02:02.430 is in the best interest of many of our members. 00:02:02.530 --> 00:02:05.609 Counties and ports actually have a lot of opportunities 00:02:05.609 --> 00:02:07.930 to work together. And I want to get into that 00:02:07.930 --> 00:02:10.219 a little bit. Do you remember the first time 00:02:10.219 --> 00:02:12.900 we met? Yeah, I do. I didn't have a beard. I 00:02:12.900 --> 00:02:15.680 was 12 years younger. I don't think I had a beard 00:02:15.680 --> 00:02:17.319 either. You did not have a beard. Did I have 00:02:17.319 --> 00:02:20.240 more hair on the top? You had hair, yeah. Some 00:02:20.240 --> 00:02:23.159 more, some less. Some more, some less. It would 00:02:23.159 --> 00:02:26.199 have been summer of 2015. Was it that long ago? 00:02:26.620 --> 00:02:28.460 That's 10 years ago. Yeah, because I just did 00:02:28.460 --> 00:02:30.919 that one beautiful year in Senator Cantwell's 00:02:30.919 --> 00:02:33.560 D .C. Senate office, and that's when I met you 00:02:33.560 --> 00:02:37.300 and your motley crew of water advocates. Yeah, 00:02:37.340 --> 00:02:39.379 so I didn't know you were at Senator Cantwell's 00:02:39.379 --> 00:02:40.740 office for only one year. I thought you were 00:02:40.740 --> 00:02:44.060 there longer. Well, I was. I laugh because her 00:02:44.060 --> 00:02:46.800 office has a reputation for turnover. I would 00:02:46.800 --> 00:02:49.840 say that's because people get really good, hard 00:02:49.840 --> 00:02:52.259 -earned experience quickly and move on to other 00:02:52.259 --> 00:02:55.810 exciting endeavors like I did. In my case, I 00:02:55.810 --> 00:02:59.389 was a transportation policy -focused legislative 00:02:59.389 --> 00:03:02.169 assistant on the House side. The Senate was embarking 00:03:02.169 --> 00:03:03.810 on the reauthorization of the service transportation 00:03:03.810 --> 00:03:06.250 package. I had a friend in her office who called 00:03:06.250 --> 00:03:08.930 and said, come up to the big time. Come to a 00:03:08.930 --> 00:03:10.750 Senate office and help us write a transportation 00:03:10.750 --> 00:03:14.069 package. And I said, I'll do one year. And I 00:03:14.069 --> 00:03:16.229 did pretty much one year. We got the bill passed. 00:03:17.849 --> 00:03:20.050 Move back to Washington. In and out. Yep. Well, 00:03:20.090 --> 00:03:22.490 how'd you end up getting stuck in a water policy 00:03:22.490 --> 00:03:25.330 meeting on the Yakima Basin Integrated Plan with 00:03:25.330 --> 00:03:27.330 me and a bunch of other guys if you were a transportation? 00:03:27.469 --> 00:03:30.090 Yeah. Well, I was also really bad at saying no 00:03:30.090 --> 00:03:35.110 to any policy issue. Me too. It was a really, 00:03:35.229 --> 00:03:38.840 it was a. Great experience. And I'm not just 00:03:38.840 --> 00:03:40.699 protecting myself against Senator Cantwell listening 00:03:40.699 --> 00:03:44.020 to this podcast, but I came in with... I hear 00:03:44.020 --> 00:03:46.699 Senator Cantwell listens to every one of these 00:03:46.699 --> 00:03:48.800 podcasts. Yeah, well, it's good to have listeners 00:03:48.800 --> 00:03:53.569 in high places. But seriously, I... Joined her 00:03:53.569 --> 00:03:55.750 office as a transportation policy analyst, but 00:03:55.750 --> 00:03:58.990 I was also the staff liaison to the Senate Energy 00:03:58.990 --> 00:04:00.750 and Natural Resources Committee where she was 00:04:00.750 --> 00:04:03.849 the ranking member. So it was my job to walk 00:04:03.849 --> 00:04:06.370 from our personal office to their community offices 00:04:06.370 --> 00:04:09.789 every week for their staff meetings. And I would 00:04:09.789 --> 00:04:12.789 walk in and they would all sort of sigh and groan 00:04:12.789 --> 00:04:14.530 and say, oh, here's the guy from the personal 00:04:14.530 --> 00:04:17.829 office. But there was a very talented water. 00:04:18.360 --> 00:04:21.379 policy expert on the committee who i worked with 00:04:21.379 --> 00:04:24.500 as sort of the personal office liaison so that's 00:04:24.500 --> 00:04:27.339 how i was in the yakima based integrated plan 00:04:27.339 --> 00:04:30.160 meetings but yeah my desk was famously the interns 00:04:30.160 --> 00:04:31.740 would come by when they were training new interns 00:04:31.740 --> 00:04:33.879 and they'd say if you have mail and you're not 00:04:33.879 --> 00:04:36.680 sure who it goes to it goes to eric ah perfect 00:04:36.680 --> 00:04:41.779 yes yeah that's how i got that job So any mail 00:04:41.779 --> 00:04:43.300 that they don't know where it goes, just give 00:04:43.300 --> 00:04:46.720 it to Eric. I was the general inbox, yeah. So 00:04:46.720 --> 00:04:48.279 you worked for Cantwell. That's where we first 00:04:48.279 --> 00:04:50.540 met. And then when you came back to Washington 00:04:50.540 --> 00:04:52.600 State, you started out at the Port of Seattle, 00:04:52.740 --> 00:04:55.920 right? Yeah, I did the 2016 legislative session 00:04:55.920 --> 00:04:59.660 as the Port of Seattle State Relations Manager. 00:05:00.319 --> 00:05:03.439 So I was the port's primary liaison to the state 00:05:03.439 --> 00:05:05.860 legislature, advocated for their policy interests 00:05:05.860 --> 00:05:09.819 in Olympia. And I was also the port's primary 00:05:09.819 --> 00:05:11.980 liaison to the Washington Public Ports Association, 00:05:12.259 --> 00:05:15.279 which is our trade association. The Port of Seattle 00:05:15.279 --> 00:05:18.019 is the biggest member. And unlike any other member 00:05:18.019 --> 00:05:20.759 I've learned since in its scope and size, but 00:05:20.759 --> 00:05:24.079 WPPA was kind of my home base down here in Olympia. 00:05:24.100 --> 00:05:26.660 Their offices are right off campus. And that's 00:05:26.660 --> 00:05:28.959 really how I got to know a lot of port members 00:05:28.959 --> 00:05:31.600 that I work with today. So, yeah, I was the seven 00:05:31.600 --> 00:05:34.000 years as Port of Seattle State Government Relations 00:05:34.000 --> 00:05:37.660 guy. Okay. Seven years? Wow. Yeah. That seems, 00:05:37.720 --> 00:05:40.420 boy, that went by fast. It did. This is my 10th 00:05:40.420 --> 00:05:42.959 legislative session. Here in Washington. Yeah. 00:05:43.519 --> 00:05:46.120 Working the Olympia session. And I think it must 00:05:46.120 --> 00:05:48.399 be about the same for you. I think it's – no, 00:05:48.500 --> 00:05:52.680 this is only my sixth or seventh. When I first 00:05:52.680 --> 00:05:54.300 met you, I was still a county commissioner. Right. 00:05:54.339 --> 00:05:56.060 And then I was a county commissioner still for 00:05:56.060 --> 00:05:57.639 a couple years afterwards while you were at the 00:05:57.639 --> 00:06:01.019 Port of Seattle. Is it Port of Seattle or Port 00:06:01.019 --> 00:06:03.199 of King County? Well, good question. It is the 00:06:03.199 --> 00:06:05.100 Port of Seattle, but it is a countywide port 00:06:05.100 --> 00:06:07.480 district. And there are – every couple years 00:06:07.480 --> 00:06:09.540 they talk about changing the name, but I think 00:06:09.540 --> 00:06:11.860 it's been a while. Firmly Port of Seattle. And 00:06:11.860 --> 00:06:13.959 then you joined WPPA or the Washington Public 00:06:13.959 --> 00:06:16.180 Ports Association, what, two years ago? Yeah, 00:06:16.199 --> 00:06:18.720 January 2023, I started as the executive director 00:06:18.720 --> 00:06:20.980 at the Washington Public Ports Association. And 00:06:20.980 --> 00:06:22.740 that's been going well. It's been going well, 00:06:22.839 --> 00:06:25.480 I think. I hope my members feel the same. Well, 00:06:25.600 --> 00:06:27.660 I have a feeling after this podcast, we might 00:06:27.660 --> 00:06:30.060 get a few comments. Yeah, this is not going out 00:06:30.060 --> 00:06:32.120 on our social media feeds. No, I mean, it's been 00:06:32.120 --> 00:06:35.699 really, for me, from a personal and professional 00:06:35.699 --> 00:06:38.879 standpoint, a success because it's... I think, 00:06:38.879 --> 00:06:40.779 broadened my perspective beyond just Seattle 00:06:40.779 --> 00:06:42.699 and King County. Even when I was at Port of Seattle, 00:06:42.819 --> 00:06:45.420 I tried to stay in touch with our ports outside 00:06:45.420 --> 00:06:49.420 of the Puget Sound because when I was with Senator 00:06:49.420 --> 00:06:51.399 Cantwell, I had seen how much we all had in common 00:06:51.399 --> 00:06:53.939 and how much more successful we could be advocating 00:06:53.939 --> 00:06:57.079 together. So that was kind of an approach I brought 00:06:57.079 --> 00:07:01.879 to my job at Seattle. It is 100 % of what I do 00:07:01.879 --> 00:07:04.639 now, which is trying to find commonalities between 00:07:04.639 --> 00:07:07.259 my members. I think I found a lot. I think that 00:07:07.259 --> 00:07:09.759 there's been progress in our sort of shared mission. 00:07:10.279 --> 00:07:14.060 But I'm sure you feel this way in your job. Every 00:07:14.060 --> 00:07:17.230 one thing we do that I feel. proud of as a success. 00:07:17.329 --> 00:07:19.029 I can think of three more that I want to get 00:07:19.029 --> 00:07:21.389 done. So it's been going well, but more work 00:07:21.389 --> 00:07:23.430 to be done. Well, when you have a diverse membership 00:07:23.430 --> 00:07:25.550 and you're trying to run an association, there 00:07:25.550 --> 00:07:27.790 is never not something to do. That's for sure. 00:07:27.970 --> 00:07:30.050 Yeah. And the political climate is necessarily 00:07:30.050 --> 00:07:32.870 one of the things I get asked about. So we could 00:07:32.870 --> 00:07:35.470 be doing all we can to represent our members' 00:07:35.569 --> 00:07:39.689 interests. I really mean that. hour out of the 00:07:39.689 --> 00:07:41.769 day. And there are things out of our control 00:07:41.769 --> 00:07:43.550 that our members want to know what we're working 00:07:43.550 --> 00:07:45.370 on. And that's part of the challenge of running 00:07:45.370 --> 00:07:47.350 a membership organization. Well, and things are 00:07:47.350 --> 00:07:49.230 going so crazy at the federal level right now 00:07:49.230 --> 00:07:51.550 to trying to balance them both, you know, trying 00:07:51.550 --> 00:07:53.670 to effectively represent your members here during 00:07:53.670 --> 00:07:55.790 the session in Olympia, trying to keep an eye 00:07:55.790 --> 00:07:57.769 on what's going on federally with you mentioned 00:07:57.769 --> 00:07:59.629 tariffs, which we're going to get into creates 00:07:59.629 --> 00:08:01.850 a whole other layer, a whole other level of challenge, 00:08:01.930 --> 00:08:04.649 I imagine, that you're trying to, you know, juggle 00:08:04.649 --> 00:08:06.610 and balance with the limited staff that you have. 00:08:06.810 --> 00:08:09.269 Yeah, I mean, it's one of the defining dynamic. 00:08:09.629 --> 00:08:12.430 We are the Washington public ports association 00:08:12.430 --> 00:08:14.990 is a state advocacy organization. So our focus 00:08:14.990 --> 00:08:17.230 is the state legislature, our executive agencies. 00:08:17.870 --> 00:08:20.730 We work very closely with an organization called 00:08:20.730 --> 00:08:22.550 the Pacific Northwest waterways association. 00:08:22.790 --> 00:08:26.850 They have a DC focus and we have probably 50 00:08:26.850 --> 00:08:30.379 members in common. They represent. the big ports 00:08:30.379 --> 00:08:32.740 and big, little and medium sized ports in our 00:08:32.740 --> 00:08:35.519 state at the federal level. So luckily, we work 00:08:35.519 --> 00:08:37.919 very closely together. But you can imagine a 00:08:37.919 --> 00:08:40.279 member calls me and says, what about the pauses 00:08:40.279 --> 00:08:42.539 in federal funding or what impact are tariffs 00:08:42.539 --> 00:08:45.279 going to have? I can't say, sorry, I don't do 00:08:45.279 --> 00:08:49.659 DC stuff. That's not going to work. So it's part 00:08:49.659 --> 00:08:52.759 of why partnerships and, you know, even just 00:08:52.759 --> 00:08:55.080 our work together and some of the panels we've 00:08:55.080 --> 00:08:56.879 been on talking about the power of partnering 00:08:56.879 --> 00:08:59.679 with. Not just national organizations, but other 00:08:59.679 --> 00:09:02.440 local organizations, because we can't just tell 00:09:02.440 --> 00:09:05.159 our members, sorry, not my job. So we're always 00:09:05.159 --> 00:09:08.000 looking out for sort of common partners who are 00:09:08.000 --> 00:09:10.340 looking to accomplish the same things. We have 00:09:10.340 --> 00:09:13.350 the exact same experience here. So I do have 00:09:13.350 --> 00:09:15.269 another question, though, that's maybe a little 00:09:15.269 --> 00:09:17.029 off topic because I was stalking you a little 00:09:17.029 --> 00:09:21.309 bit when I was preparing for this podcast. It's 00:09:21.309 --> 00:09:24.070 getting warm in here. It's just you and me here. 00:09:24.149 --> 00:09:27.889 Don't worry about it. So as I was going through 00:09:27.889 --> 00:09:30.909 your bio, I looked at your LinkedIn page. You 00:09:30.909 --> 00:09:35.269 still list your job as a delivery driver on your 00:09:35.269 --> 00:09:38.669 LinkedIn page. You know what? I'm going to spin 00:09:38.669 --> 00:09:42.379 this one. Tell me why that's still there. Well, 00:09:42.399 --> 00:09:43.580 that's mostly because I don't really know how 00:09:43.580 --> 00:09:46.419 to use LinkedIn. I mean, seriously, I finally 00:09:46.419 --> 00:09:48.299 when I took this job was like, all right, I'm 00:09:48.299 --> 00:09:49.740 going to grow up and use the Internet like everybody 00:09:49.740 --> 00:09:53.059 else. But but but seriously, I refer to that 00:09:53.059 --> 00:09:55.720 as my introduction to freight mobility and to 00:09:55.720 --> 00:09:58.519 the role of ports. And I was just in Vancouver 00:09:58.519 --> 00:10:01.480 giving a lecture of a stretch. No, but hey, roll 00:10:01.480 --> 00:10:04.549 with me. So first off. this little mom and pop 00:10:04.549 --> 00:10:07.730 company would pay me to sit in traffic, basically. 00:10:07.850 --> 00:10:10.110 Because I went to high school on Bainbridge Island, 00:10:10.190 --> 00:10:11.710 so I'm very familiar with the ferries. I couldn't 00:10:11.710 --> 00:10:13.389 believe that they just sent me to the ferry terminal 00:10:13.389 --> 00:10:15.429 without looking at the ferry schedule. And I 00:10:15.429 --> 00:10:17.450 was like, you guys are paying me $17 an hour 00:10:17.450 --> 00:10:21.409 to sit in traffic, right? And it really made 00:10:21.409 --> 00:10:24.309 me think, as I sat in traffic and racked up the 00:10:24.309 --> 00:10:27.029 bucks in my bank account, that this small company 00:10:27.029 --> 00:10:29.090 was paying the price of congestion. I mean, and 00:10:29.090 --> 00:10:31.210 I'm not BSing. When I went to DC and worked in 00:10:31.210 --> 00:10:33.470 transportation policy, we talked. all the time 00:10:33.470 --> 00:10:35.629 about the impact that freight mobility congestion 00:10:35.629 --> 00:10:39.110 has on economic competitiveness on small businesses 00:10:39.110 --> 00:10:42.389 and i i witnessed that firsthand and then this 00:10:42.389 --> 00:10:46.850 little mom and pop wine importer got a um a placement 00:10:46.850 --> 00:10:49.350 at costco around the holidays and it it changed 00:10:49.350 --> 00:10:51.509 the fortunes of that whole company oh i imagine 00:10:51.509 --> 00:10:55.309 uh and we had to go pick up a box of french champagne 00:10:55.309 --> 00:10:59.029 at not at the port of seattle but at a at a um 00:10:59.639 --> 00:11:03.919 transload facility off dock and you know seriously 00:11:03.919 --> 00:11:06.559 me riding shotgun with a guy who had a cdl and 00:11:06.559 --> 00:11:09.059 we went and picked up a crate of champagne and 00:11:09.059 --> 00:11:11.740 you know i grew up in portland and seattle in 00:11:11.740 --> 00:11:15.179 these port cities i had never witnessed the scale 00:11:15.179 --> 00:11:19.080 of the port and picking up a box from france 00:11:19.080 --> 00:11:22.139 yeah and opening it up and the dust is french 00:11:22.139 --> 00:11:25.659 dust it was like here i am this tiny speck on 00:11:25.659 --> 00:11:28.480 the earth connected to france by trade i mean 00:11:28.480 --> 00:11:31.549 it sounds Totally made up, but that was my introduction 00:11:31.549 --> 00:11:34.169 to how our ports connect us to the rest of the 00:11:34.169 --> 00:11:35.809 world. But that's not why it's on my LinkedIn 00:11:35.809 --> 00:11:38.210 page. I genuinely didn't know it was there until 00:11:38.210 --> 00:11:39.789 right now. I've never looked at dust and wondered 00:11:39.789 --> 00:11:42.750 where it came from. Yeah, I'm a real idealist. 00:11:42.769 --> 00:11:44.710 I might do that from now on, especially with 00:11:44.710 --> 00:11:46.470 the packages that I get from Amazon. I wonder 00:11:46.470 --> 00:11:48.710 where this one came from. Well, Eric, thanks 00:11:48.710 --> 00:11:51.769 for coming by. I know you didn't. this wasn't 00:11:51.769 --> 00:11:54.450 the first thing on your list today, but yeah, 00:11:54.570 --> 00:11:56.830 for the listeners, I've been avoiding this for 00:11:56.830 --> 00:11:58.929 weeks and it's the last week of session. So it's 00:11:58.929 --> 00:12:00.450 now or never. I know I've been trying to arm 00:12:00.450 --> 00:12:02.909 wrestle you to get you in here, but I really 00:12:02.909 --> 00:12:05.269 do think that our listeners are going to be interested 00:12:05.269 --> 00:12:08.129 in this conversation. I think that when you talk 00:12:08.129 --> 00:12:12.330 about, you know, counties and ports and some 00:12:12.330 --> 00:12:15.159 of the things that overlap. together that we 00:12:15.159 --> 00:12:17.860 have dual interests in. I think there's a lot 00:12:17.860 --> 00:12:20.759 for our members to learn. Let's start out with 00:12:20.759 --> 00:12:23.820 just kind of really what is a port? And the reason 00:12:23.820 --> 00:12:27.679 I ask that question is not to be sarcastic, but 00:12:27.679 --> 00:12:29.720 I think a lot of people, when they think of ports, 00:12:29.799 --> 00:12:32.240 think about what you just talked about, which 00:12:32.240 --> 00:12:35.200 is Seattle and Portland and barges in the water 00:12:35.200 --> 00:12:37.700 and crates, right? And those sorts of things, 00:12:37.779 --> 00:12:39.919 shipments coming in from overseas, et cetera. 00:12:40.240 --> 00:12:42.059 And a lot of people think you've got to have 00:12:42.059 --> 00:12:43.960 longshoremen and... when you're talking about 00:12:43.960 --> 00:12:46.120 ports, but that couldn't be farther from the 00:12:46.120 --> 00:12:48.039 truth in Washington State. Yeah, it's more the 00:12:48.039 --> 00:12:49.980 exception than the rule in the case of our port 00:12:49.980 --> 00:12:54.379 system. Ports are, in Washington's version, a 00:12:54.379 --> 00:12:56.899 unique construction of Washington created in 00:12:56.899 --> 00:12:59.159 1911 by an act of the legislature which gave 00:12:59.159 --> 00:13:01.860 communities the ability to form a port district, 00:13:02.000 --> 00:13:04.840 an independently elected special purpose or limited 00:13:04.840 --> 00:13:07.200 purpose government, depending on your terminology. 00:13:08.279 --> 00:13:10.379 And those governments were charged explicitly 00:13:10.379 --> 00:13:13.200 by the legislature with operating harbors and 00:13:13.200 --> 00:13:16.080 transportation terminals to promote trade and 00:13:16.080 --> 00:13:19.000 commerce. I won't go down the whole history books. 00:13:19.139 --> 00:13:21.139 I do recommend everybody in Washington visit 00:13:21.139 --> 00:13:23.500 historylink .org. You didn't know I was going 00:13:23.500 --> 00:13:25.600 to plug them, but I do whenever I can because 00:13:25.600 --> 00:13:27.960 it's a free encyclopedia that dives deep into 00:13:27.960 --> 00:13:30.659 the history of our state. Today's episode is 00:13:30.659 --> 00:13:33.220 sponsored by historylink .org. I think we should 00:13:33.220 --> 00:13:37.559 be sponsoring them. The idea was born out of 00:13:37.559 --> 00:13:40.820 this concern that the shipping companies and 00:13:40.820 --> 00:13:42.500 the railroads at the turn of the century were 00:13:42.500 --> 00:13:45.159 completely in control of the waterfront, not 00:13:45.159 --> 00:13:48.159 just in Seattle, Tacoma, Everett, Bellingham, 00:13:48.379 --> 00:13:53.179 Vancouver, a lot of timber export, a lot of rail 00:13:53.179 --> 00:13:55.759 born commerce, but all done by private companies. 00:13:56.019 --> 00:13:58.279 And so if you went down to the Seattle waterfront, 00:13:58.320 --> 00:14:01.679 there was, you know, a half mile of crisscrossed 00:14:01.679 --> 00:14:04.779 railroad track between. john q citizen and the 00:14:04.779 --> 00:14:08.440 water and um the sort of progressive movement 00:14:08.440 --> 00:14:10.259 of the time not the progressive movement of the 00:14:10.259 --> 00:14:13.120 day suggested that the public should benefit 00:14:13.120 --> 00:14:16.899 from public resources it's sounds almost i don't 00:14:16.899 --> 00:14:18.799 know marxist or something now you know the means 00:14:18.799 --> 00:14:21.779 of production but the idea was this is a publicly 00:14:21.779 --> 00:14:25.179 owned resource and it's being completely dominated 00:14:25.179 --> 00:14:27.740 by private interest. So the state legislature 00:14:27.740 --> 00:14:30.399 passed the Port District Act to give communities 00:14:30.399 --> 00:14:32.080 the ability to create these governments that 00:14:32.080 --> 00:14:35.860 would then acquire land that they would often 00:14:35.860 --> 00:14:37.960 lease out to private entities. So it's still 00:14:37.960 --> 00:14:40.440 private businesses making profit. It's still 00:14:40.440 --> 00:14:41.720 capitalism. There's still a ton of private interest, 00:14:41.820 --> 00:14:45.179 for sure, yeah. But the public derives revenue 00:14:45.179 --> 00:14:47.419 from it and then reinvests that revenue in additional 00:14:47.419 --> 00:14:50.019 projects. And so it did start out as that harbor 00:14:50.019 --> 00:14:52.740 and terminal focus, and it started spreading 00:14:52.740 --> 00:14:54.980 east. Initially on the rivers, you know, Port 00:14:54.980 --> 00:14:58.139 of Kennewick, I think was our first port on the 00:14:58.139 --> 00:15:00.240 east side or across the mountains. Did it really 00:15:00.240 --> 00:15:02.360 just start out when it was spreading? Was it 00:15:02.360 --> 00:15:04.940 really just to navigable waters? Yeah, Kennewick 00:15:04.940 --> 00:15:08.679 was... There was a dam had just... Or a canal 00:15:08.679 --> 00:15:10.639 system had just been built that was going to 00:15:10.639 --> 00:15:13.159 deliver some barge traffic to central Washington. 00:15:13.600 --> 00:15:18.159 And it really was focused on waterborne commerce, 00:15:18.220 --> 00:15:22.759 on navigable waters. In 1958, this is... God 00:15:22.759 --> 00:15:25.960 cut all this probably, but essentially the legislature 00:15:25.960 --> 00:15:28.460 had this industrial development statute that 00:15:28.460 --> 00:15:30.159 allowed ports to create industrial development 00:15:30.159 --> 00:15:33.299 districts and nobody was doing it because the 00:15:33.299 --> 00:15:35.879 requirements were convoluted and it was, you 00:15:35.879 --> 00:15:37.639 know, they were plenty busy. I don't know, operating 00:15:37.639 --> 00:15:40.159 terminals, et cetera. The legislature changed 00:15:40.159 --> 00:15:42.799 several key aspects of that, including eminent 00:15:42.799 --> 00:15:48.340 domain in 1958. It led to or in 1955, excuse 00:15:48.340 --> 00:15:50.700 me. And by 1958, there were 10 port districts 00:15:50.700 --> 00:15:53.039 created east of the mountains, some of them not 00:15:53.039 --> 00:15:55.940 on water. And actually, in 1959, the legislature 00:15:55.940 --> 00:15:57.740 passed a law saying port districts don't have 00:15:57.740 --> 00:15:59.620 to be on water. I think they got tired of being 00:15:59.620 --> 00:16:02.759 asked what these, you know, Port of Warden in 00:16:02.759 --> 00:16:05.360 Grant County was doing. Right. And those ports. 00:16:05.419 --> 00:16:09.019 So back to your initial question. Operating harbors 00:16:09.019 --> 00:16:11.399 and terminals for trade and export is still a 00:16:11.399 --> 00:16:13.799 defining characteristic, but now ports are primarily 00:16:13.799 --> 00:16:17.120 economic development entities. They take, you 00:16:17.120 --> 00:16:20.960 know, land that they acquire. They turn it to 00:16:20.960 --> 00:16:23.500 productive use by putting utilities, by putting, 00:16:23.500 --> 00:16:26.019 you know, roadways. Mostly for industrial purposes, 00:16:26.139 --> 00:16:27.779 right? Mostly for industrial purposes. There 00:16:27.779 --> 00:16:31.740 has been... recreational elements uh you know 00:16:31.740 --> 00:16:34.500 port of the chelan douglas regional port authority 00:16:34.500 --> 00:16:36.779 now that then they were known as port of chelan 00:16:36.779 --> 00:16:40.860 county um built a pybus public market which is 00:16:41.159 --> 00:16:43.340 has since been sold to the Pibus Market Foundation, 00:16:43.600 --> 00:16:45.899 operated by them. But it's a public market where 00:16:45.899 --> 00:16:48.419 local artisans and food producers sell their 00:16:48.419 --> 00:16:50.559 wares. Yeah, located in really the industrial 00:16:50.559 --> 00:16:52.779 part of town. Yeah, right down there by the river 00:16:52.779 --> 00:16:57.220 in the old apple packing area. And, I mean, that's 00:16:57.220 --> 00:16:59.820 a great example, too, of ports taking a former 00:16:59.820 --> 00:17:02.779 industry and catalyzing it with some new development. 00:17:03.370 --> 00:17:05.569 Kind of creative problem solving different community 00:17:05.569 --> 00:17:07.849 to community, but all based on this idea that 00:17:07.849 --> 00:17:09.829 the public should benefit from public resources 00:17:09.829 --> 00:17:12.690 and that this limited purpose government by virtue 00:17:12.690 --> 00:17:14.509 of not having. And this is where we can talk 00:17:14.509 --> 00:17:17.170 counties and ports. You all have general purpose 00:17:17.170 --> 00:17:19.029 government authorities. You have to care about 00:17:19.029 --> 00:17:23.190 wastewater and transit, et cetera. Ports are 00:17:23.190 --> 00:17:26.230 limited purpose governments. Our charge is promoting 00:17:26.230 --> 00:17:30.309 economic development. It's why I see us now as 00:17:30.309 --> 00:17:32.650 natural partners to counties and cities. But 00:17:32.650 --> 00:17:34.970 if you look at other parts of the country, oftentimes 00:17:34.970 --> 00:17:37.769 a port would be a department of a county or a 00:17:37.769 --> 00:17:41.109 city government. So I think over time there have 00:17:41.109 --> 00:17:44.769 been instances where a port and their local government 00:17:44.769 --> 00:17:47.309 haven't always gotten along because there is 00:17:47.309 --> 00:17:50.589 this idea that the port is doing economic development 00:17:50.589 --> 00:17:53.759 and the city has to. you know, deal with public 00:17:53.759 --> 00:17:57.579 safety. But as of right now, I think the partnership 00:17:57.579 --> 00:18:00.500 is strong because we do have these different 00:18:00.500 --> 00:18:03.140 roles and we occupy different spaces, but we're 00:18:03.140 --> 00:18:05.920 all. serving the same constituency. Yeah, you 00:18:05.920 --> 00:18:08.839 know, there are many examples that I'm even aware 00:18:08.839 --> 00:18:11.500 of, of ports and counties not getting along Washington 00:18:11.500 --> 00:18:13.859 State, right? I'm sure. I mean, I don't know 00:18:13.859 --> 00:18:17.200 of any right now, that pop into my brain, you 00:18:17.200 --> 00:18:19.500 probably do. We don't need to. Yeah, we certainly 00:18:19.500 --> 00:18:21.420 don't think of any, I won't say them. But yeah, 00:18:21.519 --> 00:18:23.200 yeah, we certainly don't need to dwell on that. 00:18:23.220 --> 00:18:25.259 But that has happened in the past. But in many, 00:18:25.259 --> 00:18:27.420 in many ways, you know, I'm more interested in 00:18:27.420 --> 00:18:30.359 what you said, which is, you know, what are the 00:18:30.359 --> 00:18:32.799 things that we where are, where do our interests 00:18:32.799 --> 00:18:36.180 align? And I think that they align in a lot of 00:18:36.180 --> 00:18:39.119 ways. I mean, economic development is like the 00:18:39.119 --> 00:18:42.500 Holy Grail for most counties, right? And a port 00:18:42.500 --> 00:18:44.980 district is geared and developed and focused 00:18:44.980 --> 00:18:48.079 specifically on that as an outcome. Economic 00:18:48.079 --> 00:18:51.640 development drives revenues for counties, right? 00:18:51.720 --> 00:18:54.839 It drives the ability for counties to have good 00:18:54.839 --> 00:18:57.359 quality roads, build infrastructure, provide 00:18:57.359 --> 00:19:00.480 good services, attract more talent, continue 00:19:00.480 --> 00:19:02.339 to build upon that same economic development. 00:19:02.410 --> 00:19:04.829 right it's kind of a snowball effect over time 00:19:04.829 --> 00:19:07.390 when you get it rolling in the right way down 00:19:07.390 --> 00:19:11.069 the right hill um you know not to use a a poor 00:19:11.069 --> 00:19:13.670 metaphor but i mean that's kind of the idea and 00:19:13.670 --> 00:19:16.809 when you start gaining momentum is when in many 00:19:16.809 --> 00:19:19.289 where there is a port you know where the county 00:19:19.289 --> 00:19:21.730 and the port are working together you really 00:19:21.730 --> 00:19:24.250 can start building that momentum yeah i think 00:19:24.250 --> 00:19:26.289 that there needs to be collaboration one thing 00:19:26.289 --> 00:19:29.779 we're we're um Working on right now is a conversation 00:19:29.779 --> 00:19:31.700 with the State Department of Commerce about how 00:19:31.700 --> 00:19:33.740 we do our planning compared to how cities and 00:19:33.740 --> 00:19:36.500 counties plan. Now, your members plan under the 00:19:36.500 --> 00:19:38.859 Growth Management Act. Our ports have a planning 00:19:38.859 --> 00:19:40.900 requirement in our statute that requires them 00:19:40.900 --> 00:19:42.940 to adopt comprehensive schemes. We're trying 00:19:42.940 --> 00:19:44.519 to bring you under the Growth Management Act 00:19:44.519 --> 00:19:47.220 umbrella, baby. Come on. I have accused Paula 00:19:47.220 --> 00:19:49.380 of that several times because our ports think 00:19:49.380 --> 00:19:51.039 things are going pretty well. The water's just 00:19:51.039 --> 00:19:53.440 fine in the pool. Jump on in with us, Eric. Yeah, 00:19:53.440 --> 00:19:56.779 more state regulation, please. But really, one 00:19:56.779 --> 00:19:58.539 thing I think... that the conversation has turned 00:19:58.539 --> 00:20:01.920 up is that most of our ports have a very natural 00:20:01.920 --> 00:20:04.519 and regularly occurring conversation with their 00:20:04.519 --> 00:20:07.539 counties about planning. Port of Skagit attends 00:20:07.539 --> 00:20:09.500 the Skagit Council of Government meeting. And 00:20:09.500 --> 00:20:11.680 if they don't, they should. Right. And I believe 00:20:11.680 --> 00:20:15.480 they do. And they talk about where the next commercial 00:20:15.480 --> 00:20:17.680 center is going to be, about what the population 00:20:17.680 --> 00:20:21.519 growth expectations are. In almost all the communities 00:20:21.519 --> 00:20:24.200 I've gone and visited, I see a ton of overlap. 00:20:24.359 --> 00:20:26.240 Now, you aren't going to agree all the time. 00:20:26.440 --> 00:20:28.240 In fact, one of our pieces of feedback to the 00:20:28.240 --> 00:20:30.640 Department of Commerce is, short of legislating 00:20:30.640 --> 00:20:33.259 required agreement, which you'll never get, things 00:20:33.259 --> 00:20:35.359 are working really well. And when we disagree, 00:20:35.559 --> 00:20:39.609 we have... ways of mediating that. But I think 00:20:39.609 --> 00:20:41.549 what I've learned through observing that process 00:20:41.549 --> 00:20:44.829 is that ports, we have every reason to work with 00:20:44.829 --> 00:20:48.329 our county and city partners. We need the roadway 00:20:48.329 --> 00:20:50.690 system that leads to our facilities to be in 00:20:50.690 --> 00:20:52.569 as good of shape as the roads on our facilities. 00:20:52.569 --> 00:20:54.130 Yeah, the transportation system has got to be 00:20:54.130 --> 00:20:56.049 key to the work that you guys do, right? Yeah, 00:20:56.049 --> 00:20:58.029 I think transportation advocacy is an area where 00:20:58.029 --> 00:21:02.329 we have really worked together. In fact, your 00:21:02.329 --> 00:21:05.140 transportation... advisor meets regularly with 00:21:05.140 --> 00:21:08.279 ours, and they meet together with the transportation 00:21:08.279 --> 00:21:11.160 chairs of the House and Senate committees because 00:21:11.160 --> 00:21:12.859 we have so many aligned interests. I mean, that's 00:21:12.859 --> 00:21:15.079 probably the easiest example of partnership. 00:21:16.359 --> 00:21:19.319 You necessarily raised a sort of a challenging 00:21:19.319 --> 00:21:22.960 conversation about property values, but if ports 00:21:22.960 --> 00:21:25.559 are doing our job of attracting new economic 00:21:25.559 --> 00:21:28.309 opportunity to a county, that is... increasing 00:21:28.309 --> 00:21:31.589 the property value of that county and that's 00:21:31.589 --> 00:21:33.930 how all of the local governments base that that's 00:21:33.930 --> 00:21:35.450 what all the local governments base their budgets 00:21:35.450 --> 00:21:38.430 on so so by the port's action of attracting a 00:21:38.430 --> 00:21:41.349 new business or stimulating some new type of 00:21:41.349 --> 00:21:44.009 economic development um in theory and i think 00:21:44.009 --> 00:21:46.130 in practice it means that all the local governments 00:21:46.130 --> 00:21:48.710 in the area benefit because there's more property 00:21:48.710 --> 00:21:51.369 value in the community well they do you know 00:21:52.599 --> 00:21:54.519 there's a lot to unpack there that you just talked 00:21:54.519 --> 00:21:57.140 about. Counties, this is a big issue for us and 00:21:57.140 --> 00:21:59.640 it's one that I know we talked about and one 00:21:59.640 --> 00:22:02.299 that I wanted to address today because property 00:22:02.299 --> 00:22:04.829 taxes was on. was on the agenda this year. It's 00:22:04.829 --> 00:22:06.309 been on the agenda for counties and cities for 00:22:06.309 --> 00:22:09.349 a long time, and it made it a long ways in a 00:22:09.349 --> 00:22:11.750 legislative session. We're only a couple of days 00:22:11.750 --> 00:22:15.470 before the end, hopefully, at this point, and 00:22:15.470 --> 00:22:19.710 it looks like it's dead from any viable political 00:22:19.710 --> 00:22:21.589 kind of point of view. It looks like it's not 00:22:21.589 --> 00:22:23.529 going to happen this year, which, to be honest 00:22:23.529 --> 00:22:25.609 with you, for counties and cities is a bitter 00:22:25.609 --> 00:22:28.170 disappointment. I know that you guys weren't 00:22:28.170 --> 00:22:32.410 necessarily thrilled with that particular bill. 00:22:32.940 --> 00:22:35.019 or the idea that counties would be able to raise 00:22:35.019 --> 00:22:37.559 property taxes higher than they are now. But 00:22:37.559 --> 00:22:39.519 the truth of the matter is, is if we're all doing 00:22:39.519 --> 00:22:41.700 our job, and if the port, for instance, is doing 00:22:41.700 --> 00:22:45.220 its job, like you said, they're attracting more 00:22:45.220 --> 00:22:47.059 businesses, they're attracting more industry. 00:22:47.789 --> 00:22:50.769 increases property values for everyone, which 00:22:50.769 --> 00:22:53.690 actually shares the load, right? Most people 00:22:53.690 --> 00:22:56.029 don't understand that your property taxes and 00:22:56.029 --> 00:22:58.109 the property taxes that are collected by local 00:22:58.109 --> 00:22:59.990 governments are not driven by property values. 00:23:00.250 --> 00:23:02.849 They're driven by budgets and statutory limitations. 00:23:03.289 --> 00:23:06.589 And when you have more people and more properties 00:23:06.589 --> 00:23:08.950 that are of a higher value across the board, 00:23:09.029 --> 00:23:12.130 they share that burden versus just a few higher 00:23:12.130 --> 00:23:16.410 value properties and a bunch of lower value properties. 00:23:17.150 --> 00:23:20.529 And for counties especially, you know, property 00:23:20.529 --> 00:23:24.089 taxes, we are the most property tax dependent 00:23:24.089 --> 00:23:27.289 government entity in the state. In most cases, 00:23:27.289 --> 00:23:29.869 it's at least 50 % of our budget. In other cases 00:23:29.869 --> 00:23:31.650 where there's not a lot of retail activity, where 00:23:31.650 --> 00:23:33.390 it's a more rural community, it could be 60 to 00:23:33.390 --> 00:23:36.670 70 % of their budget. All property taxes, right? 00:23:36.789 --> 00:23:39.549 And it's limited to 1 % growth year over year. 00:23:39.710 --> 00:23:43.740 If the Ports Association paid you 1 % more. next 00:23:43.740 --> 00:23:46.559 year and the next year and the next year and 00:23:46.559 --> 00:23:48.619 the next year, you'd go find another job, wouldn't 00:23:48.619 --> 00:23:51.140 you? Yeah, well, I love my job and my salary. 00:23:51.380 --> 00:23:53.460 Yeah, no, I mean, your point's well taken. And 00:23:53.460 --> 00:23:57.259 actually, to that point. WPPA was a partner in 00:23:57.259 --> 00:24:00.900 supporting that bill this year and last year. 00:24:01.059 --> 00:24:02.680 Which we appreciate. But we weren't as vocal 00:24:02.680 --> 00:24:04.539 as cities and counties because some of our ports 00:24:04.539 --> 00:24:07.900 don't take the 1%. Right. And I'm not saying 00:24:07.900 --> 00:24:10.359 that as a point of pride. Some of our counties 00:24:10.359 --> 00:24:13.599 don't. Right. It's either political or it's because, 00:24:13.740 --> 00:24:17.099 hey, we had so much new economic activity that 00:24:17.099 --> 00:24:18.859 we can meet our budget without taking it. And 00:24:18.859 --> 00:24:22.000 I wouldn't judge one way or another. Part of 00:24:22.000 --> 00:24:23.740 the reason we joined the coalition was because. 00:24:24.490 --> 00:24:29.150 It's not just one year. This is 20 plus years 00:24:29.150 --> 00:24:33.569 of that cap. Yeah, 2006, I think. Yeah, so just 00:24:33.569 --> 00:24:35.970 under 20 years. And it's really about purchasing 00:24:35.970 --> 00:24:39.009 power. So nobody's arguing, even at ports, that 00:24:39.009 --> 00:24:43.309 our ability to secure the same services or contract 00:24:43.309 --> 00:24:46.910 for the same construction project is increasing 00:24:46.910 --> 00:24:48.690 at that same rate. Obviously, it's increasing 00:24:48.690 --> 00:24:52.430 significantly faster. So part of why we joined 00:24:52.430 --> 00:24:54.940 was an acknowledgement of that. I mean, a podcast 00:24:54.940 --> 00:24:56.720 is the only format I can even say this, but you've 00:24:56.720 --> 00:24:59.759 just triggered this really challenging messaging, 00:25:00.079 --> 00:25:04.000 messaging, I guess, challenge. Wow. Sorry. Which 00:25:04.000 --> 00:25:08.059 is how do you communicate to the taxpayer that 00:25:08.059 --> 00:25:11.500 that. bringing in more economic activity will 00:25:11.500 --> 00:25:14.500 over time reduce their property tax burden because 00:25:14.500 --> 00:25:16.700 the local governments can do the services they 00:25:16.700 --> 00:25:19.180 need to do and spread it over more taxpayers. 00:25:19.480 --> 00:25:22.160 This came up in Everett where Port of Everett 00:25:22.160 --> 00:25:24.119 was seeking to expand into Snohomish County. 00:25:24.259 --> 00:25:26.420 Port of Everett's not a countywide port district. 00:25:26.740 --> 00:25:29.420 It's, I would say one of our, it punches above 00:25:29.420 --> 00:25:31.319 its weight, you know, in terms of its, the size 00:25:31.319 --> 00:25:34.200 of its, its tax base, its constituents compared 00:25:34.200 --> 00:25:36.440 to the scope of its operations, it's totally 00:25:36.440 --> 00:25:38.880 an over performer. They were seeking to, expand 00:25:38.880 --> 00:25:41.059 into the other parts of Snohomish County. And 00:25:41.059 --> 00:25:43.240 I went up and talked with some taxpayers who 00:25:43.240 --> 00:25:45.859 said, isn't this going to raise my taxes? I said, 00:25:45.940 --> 00:25:49.019 yes, because right now you're not paying at first, 00:25:49.079 --> 00:25:51.279 right? But over time - It's the same story. It's 00:25:51.279 --> 00:25:53.519 the same exact story. Over time, we'll bring 00:25:53.519 --> 00:25:55.720 in this new economic activity, which will raise 00:25:55.720 --> 00:25:57.900 values in the district. You and I were just talking 00:25:57.900 --> 00:25:59.480 about this the other day, weren't we? We were. 00:25:59.680 --> 00:26:01.559 But what we were doing was we were talking about 00:26:01.559 --> 00:26:03.539 it in a 10 minute intellectual conversation. 00:26:03.839 --> 00:26:07.259 It's so hard to tell somebody, even people who 00:26:07.259 --> 00:26:11.309 tend to be open to new taxes or their taxes going 00:26:11.309 --> 00:26:13.130 up for schools or something. Maybe they vote 00:26:13.130 --> 00:26:15.450 for a local school. The idea of putting a new 00:26:15.450 --> 00:26:18.309 line on their tax bill, it was hard for them 00:26:18.309 --> 00:26:20.890 to get over. So it's just, there's no, that's 00:26:20.890 --> 00:26:23.069 why I joke that a podcast is ideal format because 00:26:23.069 --> 00:26:26.569 there's no. 20 -second radio ad or bumper sticker 00:26:26.569 --> 00:26:29.029 that says, yes, you're paying more taxes, but 00:26:29.029 --> 00:26:31.589 trust me, it's good for you in the long run. 00:26:31.710 --> 00:26:34.089 We're from the government. Trust us. Yes. I mean, 00:26:34.170 --> 00:26:36.650 I used to think I could convince anyone of everything, 00:26:36.750 --> 00:26:39.769 and this job is a great humbler in that regard. 00:26:39.910 --> 00:26:41.089 You know, I didn't think we were going to get 00:26:41.089 --> 00:26:43.750 into taxes a lot today, but that's actually a 00:26:43.750 --> 00:26:46.089 really interesting point and an interesting part 00:26:46.089 --> 00:26:49.029 of this conversation. I don't blame people. I 00:26:49.029 --> 00:26:51.609 hate taxes. I worked for the government for 10 00:26:51.609 --> 00:26:53.309 years as a county commissioner. That was my only 00:26:53.309 --> 00:26:55.750 experience working for the government. And I 00:26:55.750 --> 00:26:58.049 advocated for things like a flood control zone 00:26:58.049 --> 00:27:00.650 district assessment because we had flooding problems. 00:27:00.869 --> 00:27:03.609 And I advocated for some new taxes to pay for 00:27:03.609 --> 00:27:06.529 different things. And I never felt like I would 00:27:06.529 --> 00:27:09.910 ever have been in that position before because 00:27:09.910 --> 00:27:13.410 even today, working for this association and 00:27:13.410 --> 00:27:15.289 representing local governments, I hate taxes, 00:27:15.410 --> 00:27:17.710 right? Everybody hates taxes. But at the same 00:27:17.710 --> 00:27:20.210 time, if we want to live in a civilized place, 00:27:20.450 --> 00:27:23.390 if we want to have services available to us, 00:27:23.470 --> 00:27:26.029 if we want the fire department to come, if we 00:27:26.029 --> 00:27:28.849 want the police or law enforcement to come when 00:27:28.849 --> 00:27:30.750 we have an emergency, if we want to make sure 00:27:30.750 --> 00:27:33.109 that we can get safely to and from, and if we 00:27:33.109 --> 00:27:35.410 want to have growth in our communities through 00:27:35.410 --> 00:27:36.910 port districts and things like that, we have 00:27:36.910 --> 00:27:39.329 to make investments. But you are absolutely right. 00:27:39.470 --> 00:27:42.089 I mean, yes, starting a port or having a port 00:27:42.089 --> 00:27:44.359 expand into your area. it's going to increase 00:27:44.359 --> 00:27:46.259 your taxes at first because you guys have property 00:27:46.259 --> 00:27:48.869 taxing authority too, right? Yeah. But those 00:27:48.869 --> 00:27:51.769 investments over time should result in actually 00:27:51.769 --> 00:27:54.250 a greater sharing of the burden because the property 00:27:54.250 --> 00:27:57.789 values should be going up on industrial lands 00:27:57.789 --> 00:27:59.349 and other properties that are contributing to 00:27:59.349 --> 00:28:01.410 the economy that weren't before. I think the 00:28:01.410 --> 00:28:04.109 only way that that actually happens is if some 00:28:04.109 --> 00:28:07.769 big development comes in into an area just all 00:28:07.769 --> 00:28:10.470 of a sudden and then people actually see that 00:28:10.470 --> 00:28:13.450 impact because property taxes won't go up necessarily 00:28:13.450 --> 00:28:15.349 because of that because everything's in place. 00:28:16.039 --> 00:28:18.859 But now there's this great big development of 00:28:18.859 --> 00:28:21.200 high value that's paying a bigger share. And 00:28:21.200 --> 00:28:23.319 what you were paying and what I was paying actually 00:28:23.319 --> 00:28:25.539 goes down the next year. Yeah, I mean, I think 00:28:25.539 --> 00:28:27.359 I wasn't planning on talking about data centers. 00:28:27.539 --> 00:28:30.220 But, you know, you just mentioned new facilities. 00:28:30.259 --> 00:28:33.079 I was just in Quincy where Port of Quincy was, 00:28:33.140 --> 00:28:35.440 I think, our first port or one of our first ports 00:28:35.440 --> 00:28:38.759 to work with the tech community to build data 00:28:38.759 --> 00:28:42.640 centers in Grant County. And now you drive through 00:28:42.640 --> 00:28:46.220 Quincy. Their high school, no exaggeration, looks 00:28:46.220 --> 00:28:48.759 like a college campus. It has better sports fields 00:28:48.759 --> 00:28:51.740 than I've ever even played on. They have a new 00:28:51.740 --> 00:28:54.460 city hall. I think they have a new police station. 00:28:54.680 --> 00:28:57.019 And that's all a story about increased property 00:28:57.019 --> 00:28:59.480 value in that community, not just due to the 00:28:59.480 --> 00:29:01.359 data centers, but due in large part to them. 00:29:02.019 --> 00:29:04.940 I think you're right. I think, you know, you 00:29:04.940 --> 00:29:06.960 joke that that was your only 10 years working 00:29:06.960 --> 00:29:09.420 in government. I've only ever worked in government. 00:29:09.559 --> 00:29:12.940 So in my career working in. I think I'm a little 00:29:12.940 --> 00:29:15.119 older than you. Yeah. Give me some time. I'll 00:29:15.119 --> 00:29:17.299 get out of this government work. Technically, 00:29:17.319 --> 00:29:19.880 now we are a nonprofit trade association, but 00:29:19.880 --> 00:29:22.660 we represent government entities. And in my career, 00:29:22.720 --> 00:29:26.140 I have not seen demands on what people want the 00:29:26.140 --> 00:29:29.059 government to deliver. decrease no and especially 00:29:29.059 --> 00:29:31.000 when it comes to port districts we always say 00:29:31.000 --> 00:29:33.279 our ports are responding to the demand that we 00:29:33.279 --> 00:29:35.259 see right in the community and a lot of that 00:29:35.259 --> 00:29:38.039 they can do without raising taxes like i said 00:29:38.039 --> 00:29:40.099 not all of our ports take their one percent but 00:29:40.099 --> 00:29:42.359 there aren't any ports in my membership that 00:29:42.359 --> 00:29:44.220 are doing something and saying to the community 00:29:44.220 --> 00:29:47.400 you know trust us you'll like this it's all responding 00:29:47.400 --> 00:29:50.980 to demand that they see um and so i think that's 00:29:50.980 --> 00:29:53.539 when i think about the tax conversation i think 00:29:53.539 --> 00:29:56.170 about it through that lens like Nobody wants 00:29:56.170 --> 00:29:58.869 to pay higher taxes, but there are things that 00:29:58.869 --> 00:30:02.190 people expect their county, city to deliver. 00:30:02.529 --> 00:30:04.609 And the things our ports are delivering are things, 00:30:04.809 --> 00:30:07.190 I think, and I hope our members are doing a good 00:30:07.190 --> 00:30:09.849 job of this, things that their communities are 00:30:09.849 --> 00:30:13.269 asking for. Well, and your members, your port 00:30:13.269 --> 00:30:15.170 commissioners are elected too, right? Just like 00:30:15.170 --> 00:30:17.009 county commissioners. Right. And so if they're 00:30:17.009 --> 00:30:19.630 not delivering. they're accountable directly 00:30:19.630 --> 00:30:21.589 to the voters right there in their communities. 00:30:21.769 --> 00:30:24.410 Yeah. It's another thing that defines our, you 00:30:24.410 --> 00:30:25.890 know, I mentioned earlier, a lot of states have 00:30:25.890 --> 00:30:27.849 ports that are departments of county government. 00:30:28.730 --> 00:30:31.470 You could argue that Washington's port district 00:30:31.470 --> 00:30:34.269 system is, you know, the most responsive. Oregon 00:30:34.269 --> 00:30:37.190 has a very similar system, but nationally our 00:30:37.190 --> 00:30:39.750 two states are different than the norm. And so 00:30:39.750 --> 00:30:41.490 I think having the people who are responsible 00:30:41.490 --> 00:30:43.670 for investing in that capital infrastructure, 00:30:43.910 --> 00:30:45.829 having them directly accountable to the voters 00:30:45.829 --> 00:30:48.150 does mean. that the projects they're delivering 00:30:48.150 --> 00:30:50.349 are projects that are worked through a public 00:30:50.349 --> 00:30:53.869 process, lots of community outreach, real commitment 00:30:53.869 --> 00:30:57.869 to open public meetings and transparent decision 00:30:57.869 --> 00:31:01.130 -making so that the things that ports build are 00:31:01.130 --> 00:31:03.930 things that I believe are supported by the communities 00:31:03.930 --> 00:31:06.490 they represent. I think that Quincy example that 00:31:06.490 --> 00:31:08.970 you brought up just a second ago is really interesting. 00:31:09.509 --> 00:31:12.250 I would love to do, and I think it would be fascinating 00:31:12.250 --> 00:31:16.049 to do. kind of a tax study on that community. 00:31:16.210 --> 00:31:18.769 And, you know, they've got better facilities. 00:31:18.970 --> 00:31:20.710 What'd you say? The high school looked like a 00:31:20.710 --> 00:31:22.430 college. Yeah. I heard it's called a junior college. 00:31:22.490 --> 00:31:23.990 It does look like you should be doing like the 00:31:23.990 --> 00:31:26.269 NFL combine there or something. Yeah. So, but 00:31:26.269 --> 00:31:29.250 it would be great to, to see, you know, how the 00:31:29.250 --> 00:31:33.460 tax burden has shifted. from the average taxpayer 00:31:33.460 --> 00:31:35.559 in that community, right? The average homeowner, 00:31:35.619 --> 00:31:39.279 so to speak, the resident versus those data centers 00:31:39.279 --> 00:31:41.960 and the overall tax revenue that's being realized 00:31:41.960 --> 00:31:43.500 by the community and how they're making those 00:31:43.500 --> 00:31:47.059 investments. I don't know for sure, but I think 00:31:47.059 --> 00:31:49.119 there's probably a good chance that taxes have 00:31:49.119 --> 00:31:52.680 really remained pretty steady, probably, if not 00:31:52.680 --> 00:31:55.099 even gone down a little bit for some of those 00:31:55.099 --> 00:31:56.859 residents compared to the benefits that they're 00:31:56.859 --> 00:31:59.480 getting from those large industrial developments. 00:31:59.759 --> 00:32:01.730 Yeah, I would like to... see it too one of our 00:32:01.730 --> 00:32:03.910 another of our ports that is doing data center 00:32:03.910 --> 00:32:06.319 work has embarked on some of that study work. 00:32:06.920 --> 00:32:10.900 So we may, WPPA, we may even have some more information 00:32:10.900 --> 00:32:13.480 we can put out on this. But, you know, cliffhanger 00:32:13.480 --> 00:32:15.940 for the listener, I think the governor has convened 00:32:15.940 --> 00:32:18.019 officially as of a couple weeks ago, their data 00:32:18.019 --> 00:32:20.460 center task force. And they're looking at it. 00:32:20.539 --> 00:32:22.160 I mean, and you and I could talk about all these 00:32:22.160 --> 00:32:23.859 issues. They're all issues we've worked together, 00:32:23.980 --> 00:32:26.940 but it's not just about taxes. Obviously, energy 00:32:26.940 --> 00:32:30.539 supply is a big issue in that community. Housing 00:32:30.539 --> 00:32:32.900 for the people coming to work on building those. 00:32:33.059 --> 00:32:35.220 You know, when I got in, to politics 15 years 00:32:35.220 --> 00:32:38.500 ago it was right after the great recession and 00:32:38.500 --> 00:32:41.779 you you you had to talk about how many jobs a 00:32:41.779 --> 00:32:44.380 project was going to create right now if you 00:32:44.380 --> 00:32:46.799 say we're going to get the money from what was 00:32:46.799 --> 00:32:48.539 the what was the name of that act the american 00:32:48.539 --> 00:32:50.759 recovery and reinvestment yeah there you go aka 00:32:50.759 --> 00:32:53.500 the obama stimulus package depending on your 00:32:53.769 --> 00:32:56.509 political leanings. And one of those line items 00:32:56.509 --> 00:32:59.630 in those applications was how many jobs are you 00:32:59.630 --> 00:33:01.190 going to retain? How many jobs are you going 00:33:01.190 --> 00:33:03.210 to create? Oh, yeah. And I was a low level political 00:33:03.210 --> 00:33:05.690 staffer writing, you know, talking points for 00:33:05.690 --> 00:33:08.269 a congressman. And you had to say shovel ready. 00:33:08.390 --> 00:33:10.410 That was Yeah, you had these words you had to 00:33:10.410 --> 00:33:12.230 use. Literally. Now, if you went to a community 00:33:12.230 --> 00:33:14.490 said, we're going to bring you 100 jobs, they 00:33:14.490 --> 00:33:16.130 would say, where are they going to live? Yeah, 00:33:16.130 --> 00:33:17.630 where are we going to put housing has become 00:33:17.630 --> 00:33:20.269 almost more of a community imperative than jobs. 00:33:20.910 --> 00:33:23.309 And so yeah, I think the data centers, tell a 00:33:23.309 --> 00:33:26.049 story about large -scale development from a tax 00:33:26.049 --> 00:33:28.210 perspective, from an energy perspective, and 00:33:28.210 --> 00:33:31.630 from a jobs perspective. So yeah, lots to go 00:33:31.630 --> 00:33:33.369 over. Well, and I feel like with that lead -in, 00:33:33.410 --> 00:33:36.109 I could go about seven different directions because 00:33:36.109 --> 00:33:38.309 obviously housing is a big issue for us, right? 00:33:38.450 --> 00:33:41.009 I mean, counties and cities, local governments, 00:33:41.089 --> 00:33:42.670 and the state have been talking about housing 00:33:42.670 --> 00:33:45.690 almost ad nauseum, right, for the last several 00:33:45.690 --> 00:33:48.779 years as part of trying to find... that magic 00:33:48.779 --> 00:33:51.539 key to solving the housing crisis. I have to 00:33:51.539 --> 00:33:53.359 imagine it's an issue that you guys think about 00:33:53.359 --> 00:33:55.640 too, because if you don't have adequate housing 00:33:55.640 --> 00:33:58.200 in an area, how are you going to attract and 00:33:58.200 --> 00:34:00.240 house employees for the types of development 00:34:00.240 --> 00:34:02.940 that you're looking for? The power issue has 00:34:02.940 --> 00:34:04.799 become one that's become a lot more apparent 00:34:04.799 --> 00:34:06.380 to our members. We had a really good meeting 00:34:06.380 --> 00:34:09.300 earlier this year where we brought in some experts 00:34:09.300 --> 00:34:12.440 to talk about transmission. and transmission 00:34:12.440 --> 00:34:15.440 capacity and new transmission requirements to 00:34:15.440 --> 00:34:19.440 address this whole issue of needing 97 % more 00:34:19.440 --> 00:34:22.199 power in the next two decades than we have in 00:34:22.199 --> 00:34:24.239 place today, which is a strange place for the 00:34:24.239 --> 00:34:26.659 Northwest to be, right? When I was growing up, 00:34:26.659 --> 00:34:30.969 we were... power exporters, big -time power exporters. 00:34:31.050 --> 00:34:33.789 We were the cheapest place for power because 00:34:33.789 --> 00:34:36.389 of our hydroelectric infrastructure. And it's 00:34:36.389 --> 00:34:38.250 why we have a lot of the industry we have. Yeah, 00:34:38.250 --> 00:34:40.369 especially the tech industry, right? And some 00:34:40.369 --> 00:34:44.010 of the big industrial manufacturing that we still 00:34:44.010 --> 00:34:46.070 have in place in Washington State in the Northwest. 00:34:46.650 --> 00:34:49.849 But the other issue that our members have also 00:34:49.849 --> 00:34:52.309 been really focused on that is one that I wanted 00:34:52.309 --> 00:34:55.289 to talk to you about that I think dovetails really, 00:34:55.389 --> 00:34:57.829 really well with this conversation. around taxes 00:34:57.829 --> 00:35:00.349 and the impact of major industrial developments 00:35:00.349 --> 00:35:03.230 in particular areas on taxes and the tax base 00:35:03.230 --> 00:35:06.909 is energy supply. And as you know, we had a bill, 00:35:07.030 --> 00:35:09.989 we had a big effort around this issue this year, 00:35:10.030 --> 00:35:13.449 and mostly not just energy supply, but clean 00:35:13.449 --> 00:35:16.389 energy development, which of course is the energy 00:35:16.389 --> 00:35:18.349 supply development in Washington state, right? 00:35:18.409 --> 00:35:20.110 We have the Clean Energy Transformation Act. 00:35:20.190 --> 00:35:23.909 We have major goals around greenhouse gas reduction 00:35:23.909 --> 00:35:26.090 or emission reductions and things like that. 00:35:26.530 --> 00:35:30.800 And a big transition from, you know, Any type 00:35:30.800 --> 00:35:33.500 of power production that's either produced or 00:35:33.500 --> 00:35:35.760 even sold into Washington State, not being from 00:35:35.760 --> 00:35:38.679 fossil fuels, making sure that it's from some 00:35:38.679 --> 00:35:40.920 renewable resource. And that's driving a lot 00:35:40.920 --> 00:35:44.039 of wind and solar development in Washington State. 00:35:44.360 --> 00:35:47.420 Those are major industrial developments in communities. 00:35:47.679 --> 00:35:50.780 When one of those actually gets developed, people 00:35:50.780 --> 00:35:54.719 do see. a major impact on their share of property 00:35:54.719 --> 00:35:58.420 taxes. I've had some of our members, their communities 00:35:58.420 --> 00:36:01.960 have built brand new schools just because they 00:36:01.960 --> 00:36:04.420 had these huge industrial wind farms or solar 00:36:04.420 --> 00:36:06.960 farms locate in their community. But over time, 00:36:07.159 --> 00:36:09.519 because of the way those particular projects 00:36:09.519 --> 00:36:12.639 are taxed, we discovered this real problem with 00:36:12.639 --> 00:36:15.460 a tax shift that was... taking all of that new 00:36:15.460 --> 00:36:17.800 growth in the tax base and moving that away from 00:36:17.800 --> 00:36:21.059 the projects and on to the local residents and 00:36:21.059 --> 00:36:24.000 businesses in the form of small incremental tax 00:36:24.000 --> 00:36:26.639 increases over time that actually became double 00:36:26.639 --> 00:36:29.760 -digit increases over a longer period of time 00:36:29.760 --> 00:36:32.260 of a decade or more. That were being perceived 00:36:32.260 --> 00:36:35.190 as being done by the... counties like the commissioners 00:36:35.190 --> 00:36:36.889 were having to answer for that right right and 00:36:36.889 --> 00:36:39.389 and it really was just a function of the state 00:36:39.389 --> 00:36:42.050 tax code and um we had a bill this year house 00:36:42.050 --> 00:36:44.329 bill 1960 we had a process during the interim 00:36:44.329 --> 00:36:47.670 that you participated in a little bit um and 00:36:47.670 --> 00:36:51.489 when that bill came out uh we actually uh we 00:36:51.489 --> 00:36:53.250 there was a little bit of friction between yeah 00:36:53.250 --> 00:36:55.190 the county's association and the ports association 00:36:55.190 --> 00:36:56.909 and i wondered if you could talk about that a 00:36:56.909 --> 00:37:00.159 little bit yeah i mean it's a In other words, 00:37:00.239 --> 00:37:03.079 you're in our podcast. What were you doing? What 00:37:03.079 --> 00:37:04.699 were you doing, Eric? Why were you so pissed 00:37:04.699 --> 00:37:07.659 at me, Eric? How come you don't like counties, 00:37:07.880 --> 00:37:11.059 Eric? I think, honestly, one of the reasons Paul 00:37:11.059 --> 00:37:12.699 was able to convince me to come do this podcast 00:37:12.699 --> 00:37:15.000 is because this is all I've ever done, worked 00:37:15.000 --> 00:37:17.199 in politics. And you have to have friendships 00:37:17.199 --> 00:37:21.789 that withstand. policy disagreements or even 00:37:21.789 --> 00:37:24.389 that get through what's perceived as a disagreement. 00:37:24.449 --> 00:37:27.030 I don't think we ever actually fully disagreed 00:37:27.030 --> 00:37:28.510 with the intent of what you were trying to do. 00:37:28.570 --> 00:37:30.550 It was just that some of the mechanics of it. 00:37:30.989 --> 00:37:33.289 generated phone calls from members my members 00:37:33.289 --> 00:37:35.429 to me so right so yeah like paul says i joined 00:37:35.429 --> 00:37:37.969 these um task force meetings all of last summer 00:37:37.969 --> 00:37:40.889 i was i would walk the dog and listen to the 00:37:40.889 --> 00:37:43.650 this just the densest energy conversation in 00:37:43.650 --> 00:37:45.730 my headphones when you say walk the dog you mean 00:37:45.730 --> 00:37:47.690 you were literally out walking your dog a couple 00:37:47.690 --> 00:37:49.909 of times they were very long meetings and my 00:37:49.909 --> 00:37:52.170 dog needs a lot of exercise it wasn't the yo 00:37:52.170 --> 00:37:55.150 -yo thing or anything yeah it was actually out 00:37:55.150 --> 00:37:57.309 with your dog well and you know as in this virtual 00:37:57.309 --> 00:37:59.010 world if you're in a three -hour meeting about 00:37:59.010 --> 00:38:01.670 energy policy and your computer's in front of 00:38:01.670 --> 00:38:03.489 you, you might start, I don't know, answering 00:38:03.489 --> 00:38:07.110 other emails. So I don't want to expose my attention 00:38:07.110 --> 00:38:10.170 span issues here. But no, I mean, the reason 00:38:10.170 --> 00:38:12.690 I joined is because I completely acknowledged 00:38:12.690 --> 00:38:15.090 the challenge that you'd put forward. I mean, 00:38:15.130 --> 00:38:17.030 it's kind of a fun thing about, you asked about 00:38:17.030 --> 00:38:20.909 working in politics, like there's just new ideas 00:38:20.909 --> 00:38:25.150 coming out every day. And this was totally a... 00:38:25.659 --> 00:38:28.619 Function of our state's push to develop more 00:38:28.619 --> 00:38:31.219 clean energy. Something that our members, my 00:38:31.219 --> 00:38:33.539 members, are mostly involved with from the siting 00:38:33.539 --> 00:38:35.719 side. A lot of our ports, you know, politically, 00:38:35.920 --> 00:38:39.320 we're all over the map. Right. Just like our 00:38:39.320 --> 00:38:41.139 members. Right, just like your members. But everybody 00:38:41.139 --> 00:38:43.000 wants to build projects. We had ports that were 00:38:43.000 --> 00:38:45.360 looking at putting in sustainable aviation fuel 00:38:45.360 --> 00:38:47.219 facilities, ports that were looking at battery 00:38:47.219 --> 00:38:49.340 storage facilities. So they were very interested. 00:38:49.340 --> 00:38:52.460 Probably solar too, right? Yeah. Yeah, although 00:38:52.460 --> 00:38:54.199 that's, I'm not sure if there's any ports that 00:38:54.199 --> 00:38:56.539 are actively developing solar, but any kind of 00:38:56.539 --> 00:39:00.280 new industry, you know, they call, the developers 00:39:00.280 --> 00:39:02.719 call commerce, commerce calls ports and say, 00:39:02.780 --> 00:39:05.539 do you have 100 acres or however much power? 00:39:05.780 --> 00:39:09.300 So we were very invested in the development side. 00:39:09.480 --> 00:39:14.159 And as the issue was framed to me, the tax shift 00:39:14.159 --> 00:39:17.579 risked disincentivizing development. So that 00:39:17.579 --> 00:39:20.909 was the, you know, the... spirit with which i 00:39:20.909 --> 00:39:22.530 joined the conversation was hey we want these 00:39:22.530 --> 00:39:26.110 developments to continue right a and then b our 00:39:26.110 --> 00:39:28.550 members were calling our association and saying 00:39:28.550 --> 00:39:31.210 hey we don't have enough power we want to bring 00:39:31.210 --> 00:39:33.710 a new entity in here and they need x amount of 00:39:33.710 --> 00:39:36.309 power and we don't have it right so so our interest 00:39:36.309 --> 00:39:39.170 in that was at least twofold which was how can 00:39:39.170 --> 00:39:41.809 we you know continue developing new projects 00:39:41.809 --> 00:39:43.789 and how we can make how can we make sure that 00:39:44.329 --> 00:39:46.489 other types of economic development, you know, 00:39:46.489 --> 00:39:49.070 manufacturing, whatever, has the energy it needs 00:39:49.070 --> 00:39:51.269 to site here in Washington. Well, these projects 00:39:51.269 --> 00:39:53.849 certainly considered, you know, the benefit that 00:39:53.849 --> 00:39:56.710 they were receiving from the, because what was 00:39:56.710 --> 00:39:58.510 happening was that tax shift was occurring because 00:39:58.510 --> 00:40:00.750 it was, most of their value was classified as 00:40:00.750 --> 00:40:02.690 personal property and they were able to depreciate 00:40:02.690 --> 00:40:06.179 that. That's it. enormous financial benefit for 00:40:06.179 --> 00:40:09.460 these projects right and so you know they don't 00:40:09.460 --> 00:40:11.340 they don't want to lose that opportunity and 00:40:11.340 --> 00:40:13.800 we want to fix this problem with the tax shift 00:40:13.800 --> 00:40:15.840 so how do you make sure that you don't lose that 00:40:15.840 --> 00:40:18.980 benefit that they were getting to disincentivize 00:40:18.980 --> 00:40:21.780 like you're saying new developments while still 00:40:21.780 --> 00:40:24.360 making sure that this tax shift no longer occurs 00:40:24.360 --> 00:40:26.400 i mean that's kind of the needle that we're trying 00:40:26.400 --> 00:40:28.539 to thread here and that's you and i were i was 00:40:28.539 --> 00:40:29.960 trying to thread that needle with you i mean 00:40:29.960 --> 00:40:31.460 like and that's why i think it's interesting 00:40:31.460 --> 00:40:33.909 where we arrived at and where we are now, because 00:40:33.909 --> 00:40:36.329 starting in those conversations last summer, 00:40:36.449 --> 00:40:39.110 I totally saw the value to our members for fixing 00:40:39.110 --> 00:40:41.309 this problem that you all your members had identified. 00:40:41.829 --> 00:40:44.269 And then when the bill came out this January, 00:40:44.469 --> 00:40:47.730 as you can attest, I called you and I said, hold 00:40:47.730 --> 00:40:51.250 on a second, this would require ports to adjust 00:40:51.250 --> 00:40:54.289 their tax levy. Now, we had a very fun intellectual 00:40:54.289 --> 00:40:56.510 conversation about what actually constitutes 00:40:56.510 --> 00:40:59.409 independent taxing authority. But the bill as 00:40:59.409 --> 00:41:02.269 written, in order to solve one element of the 00:41:02.269 --> 00:41:04.190 tax shift, did have a provision that would have 00:41:04.190 --> 00:41:06.630 required junior taxing districts to adjust their 00:41:06.630 --> 00:41:10.980 levy. Oh, embarrassing. Sorry. We never disagreed 00:41:10.980 --> 00:41:13.280 actually about whether that was an appropriate 00:41:13.280 --> 00:41:14.980 solution to the problem. It's just that to my 00:41:14.980 --> 00:41:17.119 members, they saw words on a page that said, 00:41:17.199 --> 00:41:19.380 you will reduce your tax levy. Yeah, without 00:41:19.380 --> 00:41:21.380 context. And I got a bunch of phone calls, right? 00:41:22.119 --> 00:41:24.219 So that was one of the phone calls I got. I can 00:41:24.219 --> 00:41:25.940 only imagine. And then the other one I got was 00:41:25.940 --> 00:41:27.880 people saying, this isn't going to create more 00:41:27.880 --> 00:41:29.480 energy development. You know, there were people 00:41:29.480 --> 00:41:31.719 looking at it that thought, oh my God, this is 00:41:31.719 --> 00:41:34.639 going to be... make it more challenging to develop 00:41:34.639 --> 00:41:36.639 clean energy projects. So on the one hand, I'm 00:41:36.639 --> 00:41:39.179 telling my members like, no, no, no. Paul and 00:41:39.179 --> 00:41:41.300 the crew work in this and the representative 00:41:41.300 --> 00:41:43.300 who brought it forward are trying to prevent 00:41:43.300 --> 00:41:45.980 a situation in which counties are prohibiting 00:41:45.980 --> 00:41:48.380 new clean energy projects or taking some sort 00:41:48.380 --> 00:41:51.199 of aggressive corrective action. So I was. Even 00:41:51.199 --> 00:41:53.280 though at some point we were maybe opposed or 00:41:53.280 --> 00:41:55.500 neutral or testifying to concerns with your bill, 00:41:55.579 --> 00:41:57.440 we never disputed the problem you were trying 00:41:57.440 --> 00:41:59.820 to solve. And it was just the mechanism. And 00:41:59.820 --> 00:42:02.219 that's kind of why in Olympia you have to stay. 00:42:02.500 --> 00:42:04.559 Like we could have just signed in con and said, 00:42:04.679 --> 00:42:09.179 screw you, Paul. And we knew counties were out 00:42:09.179 --> 00:42:10.980 to get us all along. You wouldn't be the first. 00:42:11.300 --> 00:42:14.920 Right. But we kept talking about it. And I think 00:42:14.920 --> 00:42:16.860 in the end. We're modeling good behavior here. 00:42:17.019 --> 00:42:18.619 We are trying. We're modeling good behavior. 00:42:18.619 --> 00:42:20.670 Kicking each other under the table. is how you 00:42:20.670 --> 00:42:22.889 work out political disputes but really i mean 00:42:22.889 --> 00:42:24.690 it's it's kind of the role of our trade association 00:42:24.690 --> 00:42:26.849 a port sees a bill hit the interest sheet and 00:42:26.849 --> 00:42:29.530 they call and they say oh my god what that what 00:42:29.530 --> 00:42:32.969 is this what you know and we say hold on we've 00:42:32.969 --> 00:42:35.090 been in these conversations this isn't out of 00:42:35.090 --> 00:42:38.809 the blue um so i i don't know where we are now 00:42:38.809 --> 00:42:40.369 because i'm not i think the bill is not gonna 00:42:40.369 --> 00:42:43.929 go no obviously not yeah yeah but we're way too 00:42:43.929 --> 00:42:46.409 we're way too far into the session now yeah but 00:42:46.409 --> 00:42:48.530 i think that we we've at least sort of i don't 00:42:48.530 --> 00:42:51.050 know at least i i I'm kind of processing in real 00:42:51.050 --> 00:42:52.530 time, although I knew we would talk about this, 00:42:52.590 --> 00:42:56.309 but we've definitely exposed some of the issues 00:42:56.309 --> 00:42:57.889 that we'll need to communicate with our members 00:42:57.889 --> 00:42:59.949 about, you know, like if we're, if we're doing 00:42:59.949 --> 00:43:01.989 this, this interim, I'll bring a couple of ports 00:43:01.989 --> 00:43:04.469 with me and say, Hey, rather than just me attending 00:43:04.469 --> 00:43:06.170 these meetings, how about you guys come? And 00:43:06.170 --> 00:43:08.500 then that way, when. They talk about the tax 00:43:08.500 --> 00:43:10.760 shift because we even had a member who engaged 00:43:10.760 --> 00:43:14.139 with you at a panel presentation we were on. 00:43:14.239 --> 00:43:16.199 A couple weeks ago. She had had a different experience 00:43:16.199 --> 00:43:19.219 with the perceived benefits or not of having 00:43:19.219 --> 00:43:21.619 a large -scale renewable energy development in 00:43:21.619 --> 00:43:23.400 their community. I thought that was a really 00:43:23.400 --> 00:43:25.280 productive conversation. I only witnessed half 00:43:25.280 --> 00:43:27.539 of it. But from that, I learned that it's not 00:43:27.539 --> 00:43:30.199 universal. Different communities had different 00:43:30.199 --> 00:43:32.880 experiences. Well, and everybody brings their 00:43:32.880 --> 00:43:35.079 own bias, right? They bring their own bias to 00:43:35.079 --> 00:43:37.280 every single conversation. that was a really 00:43:37.280 --> 00:43:40.039 good conversation with that lady. And I don't 00:43:40.039 --> 00:43:42.099 remember her name, but I know she was from Garfield 00:43:42.099 --> 00:43:44.019 or Columbia, Port of Columbia, Jenny Dickinson, 00:43:44.159 --> 00:43:46.340 20 year executive director of the Port of Columbia. 00:43:46.480 --> 00:43:48.960 And, and she really, she came from the chamber 00:43:48.960 --> 00:43:51.059 world too. So she's steeped in economic development. 00:43:51.119 --> 00:43:55.440 And she, like I said, had a more positive perception 00:43:55.440 --> 00:43:58.860 of how a big energy development had benefited 00:43:58.860 --> 00:44:02.920 that County. And, and she interpreted what I 00:44:02.920 --> 00:44:05.159 was saying about the tax shift as being anti. 00:44:06.010 --> 00:44:08.949 clean energy, anti -wind, anti -whatever. And 00:44:08.949 --> 00:44:11.150 that's not even close to the case. What we're 00:44:11.150 --> 00:44:14.110 trying to solve is, and you hit on it, we're 00:44:14.110 --> 00:44:17.489 trying to prevent a much worse outcome in the 00:44:17.489 --> 00:44:20.710 future because now that we have unearthed this 00:44:20.710 --> 00:44:23.030 problem, now that we have daylighted kind of 00:44:23.030 --> 00:44:25.630 the situation, it's becoming pretty widely known. 00:44:25.929 --> 00:44:28.690 And if you're a county commissioner and you know 00:44:28.690 --> 00:44:30.789 this is going to happen in your community, if 00:44:30.789 --> 00:44:34.309 a large scale solar or wind project locates there, 00:44:34.429 --> 00:44:38.940 right, that that the way the tax code is situated 00:44:38.940 --> 00:44:43.099 today, your community is guaranteed, right? Your 00:44:43.099 --> 00:44:45.659 individual residents are guaranteed to see major 00:44:45.659 --> 00:44:47.699 tax increases on their property taxes in the 00:44:47.699 --> 00:44:50.239 future just for the privilege of hosting these 00:44:50.239 --> 00:44:53.239 projects? Wouldn't you fight like crazy to prevent 00:44:53.239 --> 00:44:54.659 that from happening? Even if you agreed with 00:44:54.659 --> 00:44:56.510 what the... what the project was creating, you 00:44:56.510 --> 00:44:58.469 know, clean energy. Right. I think that was one 00:44:58.469 --> 00:45:01.409 really interesting thing. You know, the less 00:45:01.409 --> 00:45:03.949 legislatively inclined listener won't understand 00:45:03.949 --> 00:45:05.849 that you don't want to introduce a bill just 00:45:05.849 --> 00:45:07.789 to stimulate conversation. I mean, you went through 00:45:07.789 --> 00:45:10.590 a ton of work just to have some conversations, 00:45:10.630 --> 00:45:13.949 but I imagine you learned a ton about how people. 00:45:14.889 --> 00:45:16.570 view these types of development just in the way 00:45:16.570 --> 00:45:18.690 they reacted to their bill. And I got calls from 00:45:18.690 --> 00:45:21.070 people who thought your bill was either a designed 00:45:21.070 --> 00:45:23.650 to stop clean energy projects from happening 00:45:23.650 --> 00:45:25.949 if they were on the, if that was their political 00:45:25.949 --> 00:45:28.110 leaning or people on the exact other side of 00:45:28.110 --> 00:45:30.570 the spectrum who called and said, how dare they 00:45:30.570 --> 00:45:32.789 put the finger on the scale of clean energy development? 00:45:32.909 --> 00:45:35.309 I mean, that tells you that the bill that people 00:45:35.309 --> 00:45:38.590 are reacting in real time. Like people didn't 00:45:38.590 --> 00:45:41.070 even have time to sort of retreat to their standard 00:45:41.070 --> 00:45:44.070 policy positions because it was such a new idea 00:45:44.070 --> 00:45:45.730 that you brought forward. So I do think there 00:45:45.730 --> 00:45:47.610 was benefit to the conversation, even if the 00:45:47.610 --> 00:45:49.929 bill doesn't pass, because now at least next 00:45:49.929 --> 00:45:52.489 session, I won't have to say, trust me, Paul's 00:45:52.489 --> 00:45:54.809 not trying to screw us because I think we got 00:45:54.809 --> 00:45:57.010 that out of the way. Well, you know, interestingly 00:45:57.010 --> 00:46:01.349 enough, Eric, we had the same exact. reaction 00:46:01.349 --> 00:46:03.449 from your commissioners from our commissioners 00:46:03.449 --> 00:46:06.869 so what what we so the way this whole thing developed 00:46:06.869 --> 00:46:10.349 was um you know we we work in all kinds of policy 00:46:10.349 --> 00:46:13.480 areas just like you do right all All year round, 00:46:13.519 --> 00:46:17.539 we're working in policy areas. And I just started 00:46:17.539 --> 00:46:19.659 to have some conversations with some of the counties 00:46:19.659 --> 00:46:21.980 and really their economic development offices 00:46:21.980 --> 00:46:25.340 that had more of these projects over time, specifically 00:46:25.340 --> 00:46:28.000 Clickitat, Kittitas, a couple others. And they 00:46:28.000 --> 00:46:30.679 started to tell me about, you know, we're seeing 00:46:30.679 --> 00:46:33.360 these weird tax things. We're getting complaints 00:46:33.360 --> 00:46:35.579 from taxpayers and they're seeing these big increases. 00:46:35.860 --> 00:46:38.539 And we're limited to a 1 % increase per year, 00:46:38.599 --> 00:46:40.559 so we're not sure what's happening. And then 00:46:40.559 --> 00:46:42.110 someone said, you know what, I think it is. I 00:46:42.110 --> 00:46:44.250 think it's these. And I said, you're kidding 00:46:44.250 --> 00:46:47.550 me. And so we started. gathering data and we 00:46:47.550 --> 00:46:49.489 started looking at it over about a year and a 00:46:49.489 --> 00:46:53.030 half and then i put together a team of just myself 00:46:53.030 --> 00:46:56.610 and travis dutton our policy uh coordinator here 00:46:56.610 --> 00:46:58.269 i just got to meet it was like meeting a celebrity 00:46:58.269 --> 00:47:00.750 i'd seen him on zoom for 20 hours i'm like oh 00:47:00.750 --> 00:47:04.070 my god it's you you're taller than i yeah he's 00:47:04.070 --> 00:47:06.269 got five by five by eight glossies if you if 00:47:06.269 --> 00:47:08.329 you bring a sharpie he'll okay all right i'll 00:47:08.329 --> 00:47:10.550 get some autographs on the way out but uh and 00:47:10.550 --> 00:47:13.170 so you know travis and i we just got together 00:47:13.170 --> 00:47:15.840 with eric johnson who was our director at the 00:47:15.840 --> 00:47:18.340 time we like to call him eric counties johnson 00:47:18.340 --> 00:47:20.380 because the director of the ports association 00:47:20.380 --> 00:47:23.219 at the same time was eric ports johnson so yeah 00:47:23.219 --> 00:47:25.730 and then of course there was you know the TV 00:47:25.730 --> 00:47:27.829 anchor Eric Johnson. Speaking of needing trading 00:47:27.829 --> 00:47:30.369 cards to keep track of it all. Yeah. Come on, 00:47:30.369 --> 00:47:32.269 guys. Pick a different name for goodness sakes. 00:47:32.469 --> 00:47:36.289 Anyways, Travis and I came to Eric. I said, hey, 00:47:36.349 --> 00:47:38.650 we've kind of unearthed this problem. I want 00:47:38.650 --> 00:47:40.250 to investigate it more. I think we need a white 00:47:40.250 --> 00:47:43.190 paper. And he said, well, tell me more about 00:47:43.190 --> 00:47:44.650 it. So I just kind of laid it out for him. He 00:47:44.650 --> 00:47:46.530 says, okay, let's put together, let's see what 00:47:46.530 --> 00:47:48.889 it would look like and let's see if it's worthy. 00:47:49.449 --> 00:47:52.010 So I put Travis to work doing most of the research 00:47:52.010 --> 00:47:53.909 and he and I worked on the white paper and we 00:47:53.909 --> 00:47:59.860 published it. december of 2023 and uh it hit 00:47:59.860 --> 00:48:03.639 our members um and i i can tell you there were 00:48:03.639 --> 00:48:06.360 some that were not happy you know there were 00:48:06.360 --> 00:48:08.519 some that really saw it as anti -clean energy 00:48:08.519 --> 00:48:10.659 right and then i had a whole other group who 00:48:10.659 --> 00:48:13.739 saw it as anti -clean energy in the way they 00:48:13.739 --> 00:48:16.219 wanted it to be right they were like yeah we're 00:48:16.219 --> 00:48:18.579 gonna use this we knew that they were Jacking 00:48:18.579 --> 00:48:21.380 us down with clean energy. And then the other 00:48:21.380 --> 00:48:24.019 group was, what are you doing? You know, we want 00:48:24.019 --> 00:48:26.699 to be, we want to be environmentally friendly. 00:48:26.780 --> 00:48:28.880 We want to reduce greenhouse gas emissions. We 00:48:28.880 --> 00:48:31.300 want to, you know, fight climate change. You're 00:48:31.300 --> 00:48:33.699 hurting our opportunities. We had to sit both 00:48:33.699 --> 00:48:36.039 sides down and say, you guys are both reading 00:48:36.039 --> 00:48:39.579 this wrong, right? This is just about a tax problem. 00:48:39.960 --> 00:48:42.820 This is a tax issue. And I don't care if you're 00:48:42.820 --> 00:48:44.960 clean energy, you know, if you're pro clean energy, 00:48:44.980 --> 00:48:47.500 you're not clean, pro clean energy, you know, 00:48:47.530 --> 00:48:49.329 if you're pro -clean energy, you want to solve 00:48:49.329 --> 00:48:51.750 this problem. Because if we're going to meet 00:48:51.750 --> 00:48:53.550 our goals for greenhouse gas emission reduction 00:48:53.550 --> 00:48:56.449 long term and for clean energy long term, we're 00:48:56.449 --> 00:48:59.570 going to need 10 to 20 times the amount of projects 00:48:59.570 --> 00:49:01.650 that we have on the ground today. I mean, statistics 00:49:01.650 --> 00:49:03.590 are already showing we need twice as much power, 00:49:03.889 --> 00:49:06.550 right? And you're never going to get it if these 00:49:06.550 --> 00:49:08.789 communities are faced with this problem. And 00:49:08.789 --> 00:49:11.530 if you're anti -clean energy or you don't like 00:49:11.530 --> 00:49:13.769 these projects, well, guess what? You live in 00:49:13.769 --> 00:49:16.659 a state. whose policy is to build them. And you 00:49:16.659 --> 00:49:18.579 might as well solve this problem so that this 00:49:18.579 --> 00:49:21.000 impact doesn't, you know. hit your communities 00:49:21.000 --> 00:49:22.760 the way that it could, and you can get some benefits 00:49:22.760 --> 00:49:25.280 out of it at the same time. Yeah. I mean, you're 00:49:25.280 --> 00:49:27.980 sort of the victim, I think, of being at this 00:49:27.980 --> 00:49:30.780 phase of policymaking, like you said, where these 00:49:30.780 --> 00:49:33.760 clean energy laws are the law of the land. We 00:49:33.760 --> 00:49:36.480 have these targets. And so now it's about trying 00:49:36.480 --> 00:49:39.340 to meet them. And for my members, it's, like 00:49:39.340 --> 00:49:41.320 I said earlier, about having energy available. 00:49:41.500 --> 00:49:44.679 Really, they're singularly focused on, we have 00:49:44.679 --> 00:49:46.900 somebody who wants to bring 100 jobs to Grant 00:49:46.900 --> 00:49:49.320 County. Can we provide them the wattage to bring 00:49:49.320 --> 00:49:52.019 them? that manufacturing facility here. So they're 00:49:52.019 --> 00:49:55.340 almost agnostic on the sort of big policy questions 00:49:55.340 --> 00:49:58.880 of 2020, 2021 that the legislature confronted 00:49:58.880 --> 00:50:02.500 and then passed laws to resolve. So we almost, 00:50:02.639 --> 00:50:04.519 I mean, we can't get away from talking about 00:50:04.519 --> 00:50:06.380 those. We're in a political world. We represent, 00:50:06.639 --> 00:50:09.460 we work for elected officials, but your policy 00:50:09.460 --> 00:50:13.280 sort of uncovered one of the first symptoms or 00:50:14.059 --> 00:50:15.880 I don't know what you want to call it, externalities 00:50:15.880 --> 00:50:18.920 of this transition to clean energy economy. And 00:50:18.920 --> 00:50:24.579 you were essentially thanked by an angry public 00:50:24.579 --> 00:50:26.340 who said, what the hell? People who said you're 00:50:26.340 --> 00:50:29.820 wrong or you're making a political statement 00:50:29.820 --> 00:50:32.059 and sitting next to you on the stage and you're 00:50:32.059 --> 00:50:34.099 saying, I guarantee this will cause your taxes 00:50:34.099 --> 00:50:36.059 to go up. I'm looking at people in the audience. 00:50:36.199 --> 00:50:38.139 I'm thinking like some of these people think 00:50:38.139 --> 00:50:40.659 he's just that that's a talking point. No, I 00:50:40.659 --> 00:50:42.960 had been through all your hours and hours of 00:50:42.960 --> 00:50:44.900 Zoom meetings. to know that like you had done 00:50:44.900 --> 00:50:46.980 the research to determine that that was actually 00:50:46.980 --> 00:50:49.800 happening. And so, yeah, maybe with one session 00:50:49.800 --> 00:50:52.469 behind us and next year. You'll have gotten, 00:50:52.510 --> 00:50:54.949 gotten through some of that. What I would call 00:50:54.949 --> 00:50:56.989 like a political reaction. Yeah. And then you 00:50:56.989 --> 00:50:58.889 can get more policy feedback. I think probably 00:50:58.889 --> 00:51:01.050 half the feedback you got this year was, and 00:51:01.050 --> 00:51:02.969 even some of the feedback I got on your bill 00:51:02.969 --> 00:51:05.349 was like, what the hell you're touching our tax 00:51:05.349 --> 00:51:07.909 levy. And, and so I think maybe with a year, 00:51:07.929 --> 00:51:10.730 a year, hence you, you'll have a different policy 00:51:10.730 --> 00:51:13.409 reaction. Well, we knew, we definitely knew it 00:51:13.409 --> 00:51:16.639 was not a single. session issue right i mean 00:51:16.639 --> 00:51:19.920 just the education on it uh you know your members 00:51:19.920 --> 00:51:21.800 had the same reaction that my members had right 00:51:21.800 --> 00:51:24.380 um and you were at the table yeah and we still 00:51:24.380 --> 00:51:26.719 have work to do with your members we still have 00:51:26.719 --> 00:51:28.460 work to do with a lot of other constituencies 00:51:28.460 --> 00:51:31.559 not to mention just the legislators trying to 00:51:31.559 --> 00:51:34.780 get them kind of up to speed so uh we we're pretty 00:51:34.780 --> 00:51:37.829 confident because because the data is on our 00:51:37.829 --> 00:51:39.630 side, that we're going to find a way through 00:51:39.630 --> 00:51:41.809 this. And we definitely want to work with you 00:51:41.809 --> 00:51:43.789 guys to make that happen. Well, I wonder, I mean, 00:51:43.829 --> 00:51:47.000 I'm... I'm going to take control of this podcast 00:51:47.000 --> 00:51:49.519 for a second and just say like, so awesome. I'm 00:51:49.519 --> 00:51:51.400 going to sit back. Yeah, don't worry. It's a 00:51:51.400 --> 00:51:53.639 short lead in. One thing my members I think are 00:51:53.639 --> 00:51:55.280 surprised about leaving session is that there 00:51:55.280 --> 00:51:59.139 has not been a raft of new policies adopted by 00:51:59.139 --> 00:52:01.739 the legislature to address what we see as energy 00:52:01.739 --> 00:52:04.260 supply concerns. You hear it called resource 00:52:04.260 --> 00:52:06.820 adequacy, energy supply. Yeah, there's really 00:52:06.820 --> 00:52:09.639 just one bill, right? 5466. A transmission bill 00:52:09.639 --> 00:52:12.099 has survived, but it has had probably its most 00:52:12.099 --> 00:52:15.320 substantial provision removed. Yeah. Categorical 00:52:15.320 --> 00:52:19.199 exclusion for transmission siting. And for my 00:52:19.199 --> 00:52:22.099 members who thought that, I mean, the chairs 00:52:22.099 --> 00:52:24.280 of the environmental committees went to Central 00:52:24.280 --> 00:52:27.019 Washington and had, you know, remote committee 00:52:27.019 --> 00:52:28.920 hearings to talk about this. We thought that 00:52:28.920 --> 00:52:31.500 was a real acknowledgement of the scale of the 00:52:31.500 --> 00:52:34.119 challenge. I don't think that it wasn't. I just 00:52:34.119 --> 00:52:36.340 think that it was hard to get anything done on 00:52:36.340 --> 00:52:39.869 energy policy in this session. So when I go back 00:52:39.869 --> 00:52:41.630 out to meet with my members after session, there 00:52:41.630 --> 00:52:43.570 will be people who say, we thought that there 00:52:43.570 --> 00:52:46.010 were going to be five to 10 bills passed to make 00:52:46.010 --> 00:52:48.989 more supply possible, whether clean or not. It's 00:52:48.989 --> 00:52:51.349 just the energy of every room just got sucked 00:52:51.349 --> 00:52:52.969 out from the budget, don't you think? Yeah, I 00:52:52.969 --> 00:52:55.070 think the budget overtook everything. Yeah. But 00:52:55.070 --> 00:52:57.210 I wonder if, you know, going back to your House 00:52:57.210 --> 00:53:00.230 Bill 1960 or to the clean energy tax shift concern 00:53:00.230 --> 00:53:02.329 in general, and maybe you don't know yet, but 00:53:02.329 --> 00:53:05.789 did you get enough openness from like clean energy 00:53:05.789 --> 00:53:08.820 advocates that you could put that? as part of 00:53:08.820 --> 00:53:11.019 a package like will you be able to message that 00:53:11.019 --> 00:53:15.219 as pro energy development going forward like 00:53:15.219 --> 00:53:17.280 if the legislature is putting together a package 00:53:17.280 --> 00:53:20.099 of bills next session and say saying hey these 00:53:20.099 --> 00:53:23.400 five things taken together will put us on the 00:53:23.400 --> 00:53:25.840 path we need to be on can you be part of that 00:53:25.840 --> 00:53:27.539 conversation you know that's a really interesting 00:53:27.539 --> 00:53:31.829 conversation it's you know For us, it's a vexing 00:53:31.829 --> 00:53:35.170 political question because we definitely have 00:53:35.170 --> 00:53:38.730 members kind of like you do that are on one side 00:53:38.730 --> 00:53:41.230 or on the other where clean energy development 00:53:41.230 --> 00:53:45.409 is concerned, right? And so I don't know that 00:53:45.409 --> 00:53:48.550 – I think that you could easily take a look at 00:53:48.550 --> 00:53:51.530 what we're trying to accomplish and say, you 00:53:51.530 --> 00:53:53.550 know, if I'm just being totally honest, if you 00:53:53.550 --> 00:53:56.079 wanted to from your kind of – perspective or 00:53:56.079 --> 00:53:58.659 your own bias say yeah this is this is pro this 00:53:58.659 --> 00:54:00.579 is pro clean energy development because we're 00:54:00.579 --> 00:54:03.139 solving a problem you know that's hurting communities 00:54:03.139 --> 00:54:05.500 and we don't want to do that right if if these 00:54:05.500 --> 00:54:08.440 communities are going to have these facilities, 00:54:08.539 --> 00:54:09.980 we want to make sure they're getting benefits 00:54:09.980 --> 00:54:14.760 from it, not getting hurt financially. So in 00:54:14.760 --> 00:54:18.519 that way, you could. But I definitely have members 00:54:18.519 --> 00:54:22.119 who wouldn't be in favor of a bill like that, 00:54:22.139 --> 00:54:24.460 that was positioned that way. Interesting. So 00:54:24.460 --> 00:54:27.679 the messaging could lose you supporters or gain 00:54:27.679 --> 00:54:30.019 you supporters. Yeah, I think it could. And so 00:54:30.019 --> 00:54:33.440 I think our biggest interest is really just solving 00:54:33.440 --> 00:54:36.489 the problem. Yeah. Right. And letting the communities 00:54:36.489 --> 00:54:38.949 kind of decide for themselves their own position 00:54:38.949 --> 00:54:44.250 on pro or con energy development. But but, you 00:54:44.250 --> 00:54:46.670 know, from an association point of view, knowing 00:54:46.670 --> 00:54:50.860 what we know and knowing what the issue is. trying 00:54:50.860 --> 00:54:53.820 to do our job and solve that issue. So those 00:54:53.820 --> 00:54:55.679 communities that want clean energy development 00:54:55.679 --> 00:54:58.800 have a cleaner pathway to it. And those who don't 00:54:58.800 --> 00:55:01.780 can, you know, they can fight on other issues 00:55:01.780 --> 00:55:04.460 because this, you know, no longer is an issue. 00:55:05.769 --> 00:55:08.550 clean energy development is forced upon them 00:55:08.550 --> 00:55:10.809 because the state can do that, right, through 00:55:10.809 --> 00:55:14.210 the Energy Facility Siding Evaluation Council, 00:55:14.409 --> 00:55:17.530 that they don't have this cost burden to deal 00:55:17.530 --> 00:55:19.809 with, right? Well, this could take us a whole 00:55:19.809 --> 00:55:21.369 other hour, and I'm sure you want to cover other 00:55:21.369 --> 00:55:23.570 things, but you've just hit on two other things 00:55:23.570 --> 00:55:26.969 that that bill exposed, which is we all, as representing 00:55:26.969 --> 00:55:28.949 these local government trade associations, we 00:55:28.949 --> 00:55:31.760 had to sort of take stock about what... independence 00:55:31.760 --> 00:55:34.679 really means like my first reaction was hey we 00:55:34.679 --> 00:55:37.139 have independent taxing authority and you said 00:55:37.139 --> 00:55:39.760 yeah except it's given to you by the state right 00:55:39.760 --> 00:55:41.780 so the state can tinker with our taxing authority 00:55:41.780 --> 00:55:44.400 right by an act of the legislature so really 00:55:44.400 --> 00:55:46.860 good to be conscious of that and then i think 00:55:46.860 --> 00:55:50.679 the bill maybe initially had some zoning um requirements 00:55:50.679 --> 00:55:52.760 that that would have been put on counties and 00:55:52.760 --> 00:55:54.400 so local governments as you know historically 00:55:54.400 --> 00:55:57.800 have authority over zoning yeah but it's been 00:55:57.800 --> 00:56:00.159 given to them by the legislature so it was a 00:56:00.159 --> 00:56:02.500 reminder that like you know your independence 00:56:02.500 --> 00:56:05.619 is only as good as a majority in the legislature 00:56:05.619 --> 00:56:08.739 allows it to be right so yeah it was extremely 00:56:08.739 --> 00:56:12.159 uh eye -opening from that perspective it is very 00:56:12.159 --> 00:56:15.960 interesting and and it's one of the things that 00:56:15.960 --> 00:56:17.920 we talk about a lot is how counties are really 00:56:17.920 --> 00:56:20.170 at arm of the state legislature, right? I mean, 00:56:20.190 --> 00:56:23.550 we are, along with cities, the entities that 00:56:23.550 --> 00:56:26.789 are probably most responsible for implementing 00:56:26.789 --> 00:56:29.369 the policies that the legislature passes. And 00:56:29.369 --> 00:56:31.550 most of the authorities that we're given are 00:56:31.550 --> 00:56:34.409 really only what the legislature says that we 00:56:34.409 --> 00:56:37.289 have. Now, there have been some attorney general 00:56:37.289 --> 00:56:39.750 opinions and some Supreme Court rulings recently 00:56:39.750 --> 00:56:42.070 that have kind of gone a little bit beyond that 00:56:42.070 --> 00:56:43.989 and said, well, you know, if the state's silent 00:56:43.989 --> 00:56:47.110 on something, then yeah, counties and cities, 00:56:47.250 --> 00:56:50.460 you know, can. kind of legislate, they can regulate 00:56:50.460 --> 00:56:52.820 in those areas, where in the past, I don't think 00:56:52.820 --> 00:56:54.940 that was the general understanding. So things 00:56:54.940 --> 00:56:57.199 have changed a little bit there. But you're right. 00:56:57.280 --> 00:57:00.239 I mean, you know, there's, it does bring to light 00:57:00.239 --> 00:57:02.440 some of those questions in a pretty meaningfully, 00:57:02.519 --> 00:57:07.420 you know, a pretty meaningful way, more so than 00:57:07.420 --> 00:57:10.059 I think a lot of people appreciate until you 00:57:10.059 --> 00:57:12.699 start, you know, sifting through that. You kind 00:57:12.699 --> 00:57:14.619 of mentioned, you know, taxing authority. You 00:57:14.619 --> 00:57:16.400 also mentioned, you know, zoning and land use 00:57:16.400 --> 00:57:19.380 authority. Uh, just pivoting a little bit kind 00:57:19.380 --> 00:57:21.820 of away from taxes and energy at the moment. 00:57:21.860 --> 00:57:23.579 You don't want to talk about taxes anymore. All 00:57:23.579 --> 00:57:25.940 right. Yeah. But well, I mean, it's so, it's 00:57:25.940 --> 00:57:27.440 a big part of what you do, right? It's a big 00:57:27.440 --> 00:57:29.760 part of what we do. Uh, but another big part 00:57:29.760 --> 00:57:31.360 of what we do that I think you guys have a really 00:57:31.360 --> 00:57:33.619 big interest in is land use authority. Right. 00:57:33.980 --> 00:57:38.230 Um, I, I saw. I think another LinkedIn posts 00:57:38.230 --> 00:57:41.210 where you were out on the road advocating for 00:57:41.210 --> 00:57:45.590 industrial land preservation. If I'm not, is 00:57:45.590 --> 00:57:48.949 that the right way to characterize it? I joked 00:57:48.949 --> 00:57:51.920 that I was. Getting tired of the Washington State 00:57:51.920 --> 00:57:53.840 Legislature, so I spent some time up at the Seattle 00:57:53.840 --> 00:57:57.219 City Council this spring. And it's an issue I've 00:57:57.219 --> 00:57:59.920 been involved with since I got to the Port of 00:57:59.920 --> 00:58:03.019 Seattle. It invokes my Portland Trailblazers 00:58:03.019 --> 00:58:06.019 fandom because in Seattle there has been a decade 00:58:06.019 --> 00:58:09.639 -long fight about zoning around the sports stadiums. 00:58:09.639 --> 00:58:12.820 Sort of kicked off by the idea that a new basketball 00:58:12.820 --> 00:58:15.940 stadium would be built next to the Mariners and 00:58:15.940 --> 00:58:19.199 the Seahawks' existing stadiums. And, you know, 00:58:19.280 --> 00:58:21.480 I'm trying to decide. Which direction to go? 00:58:21.539 --> 00:58:23.880 Because it is a political issue I care deeply 00:58:23.880 --> 00:58:25.920 about and am very involved in. I'll just say 00:58:25.920 --> 00:58:28.739 maybe that one thing we've learned is that the 00:58:28.739 --> 00:58:31.400 city of Seattle's experience with zoning around 00:58:31.400 --> 00:58:35.820 the port is not unique to Seattle. Ports tend 00:58:35.820 --> 00:58:38.199 to operate in areas that are preserved for industrial 00:58:38.199 --> 00:58:41.099 development. That is in itself an acknowledgement 00:58:41.099 --> 00:58:44.579 that. industrial development is often incompatible 00:58:44.579 --> 00:58:47.639 with residential and mixed -use retail, et cetera, 00:58:47.639 --> 00:58:50.340 type development. So our ports have historically 00:58:50.340 --> 00:58:53.460 been strong advocates in maintaining that preservation 00:58:53.460 --> 00:58:57.099 of industrial lands away from population centers 00:58:57.099 --> 00:59:00.880 without saying because they're terrible or just 00:59:00.880 --> 00:59:04.679 because supporting the... The success of an industrial 00:59:04.679 --> 00:59:07.519 area does mean making it easier for trucks to 00:59:07.519 --> 00:59:10.500 get in, making it less likely that people will 00:59:10.500 --> 00:59:13.280 complain about light from manufacturing operations 00:59:13.280 --> 00:59:15.820 that go into the evening. Or noise. Or noise. 00:59:15.900 --> 00:59:19.039 Noise pollution is a big issue. Motors. The independence, 00:59:19.440 --> 00:59:22.880 the purview of land use as a city and county 00:59:22.880 --> 00:59:25.300 item has always been something, like we started 00:59:25.300 --> 00:59:26.760 talking about at the beginning, where ports have 00:59:26.760 --> 00:59:30.190 had to have... positive relationships with their 00:59:30.190 --> 00:59:32.869 local government partners because the county 00:59:32.869 --> 00:59:34.630 could adopt a comprehensive plan or the city 00:59:34.630 --> 00:59:36.389 could adopt a comprehensive plan that makes it 00:59:36.389 --> 00:59:38.829 more challenging for ports to do their work. 00:59:38.929 --> 00:59:42.170 Now, what I was up in Seattle testifying vociferously 00:59:42.170 --> 00:59:44.309 against, and I don't mind going on record here 00:59:44.309 --> 00:59:47.170 because I'll go on record anywhere, is by placing 00:59:47.710 --> 00:59:50.650 900 units of what were described as workforce 00:59:50.650 --> 00:59:53.170 housing, but it's a term I don't necessarily... 00:59:53.170 --> 00:59:55.070 Now, this was in the Soho area, right? This is, 00:59:55.070 --> 00:59:57.530 yeah, Soto down by directly across the street. 00:59:57.650 --> 00:59:59.769 Or Soto, yeah. Soto, yeah. You're thinking about 00:59:59.769 --> 01:00:04.010 the East Coast. I was. But I was making the point, 01:00:04.030 --> 01:00:05.929 as were all the other industrial import advocates, 01:00:06.030 --> 01:00:07.909 that putting housing directly across the street 01:00:07.909 --> 01:00:10.150 from an international container terminal would 01:00:10.150 --> 01:00:12.590 make it more difficult to get Washington's export 01:00:12.590 --> 01:00:16.079 goods. out to our export markets in Asia. We 01:00:16.079 --> 01:00:19.139 were in the end unsuccessful in part because 01:00:19.139 --> 01:00:21.420 the terminal in question is not currently occupied 01:00:21.420 --> 01:00:23.980 by a terminal operator. But I would say that 01:00:23.980 --> 01:00:25.699 that teaches you another lesson, which is that 01:00:25.699 --> 01:00:28.000 industrial areas aren't always humming with activity. 01:00:28.219 --> 01:00:30.940 You may be between one manufacturing operation 01:00:30.940 --> 01:00:34.400 and another. But the idea that it could be rezoned 01:00:34.400 --> 01:00:37.260 just because it's vacant for a time is completely 01:00:37.260 --> 01:00:39.019 counter to the idea of preserving industrial 01:00:39.019 --> 01:00:40.860 lands for industrial use. You know, what we say 01:00:40.860 --> 01:00:43.460 in Seattle is that like 10... percent or less 01:00:43.460 --> 01:00:46.260 of the land in the city is preserved for industrial 01:00:46.260 --> 01:00:49.019 use, yet it generates an outsized proportion 01:00:49.019 --> 01:00:51.559 of the jobs in the city and revenue, the revenue, 01:00:51.780 --> 01:00:53.960 the tax revenue that the city relies on. So, 01:00:54.059 --> 01:00:56.179 yeah, we were unsuccessful in that. There was 01:00:56.179 --> 01:00:58.840 a conditional use granted, which may lead to 01:00:58.840 --> 01:01:00.920 some residential development down in that historically 01:01:00.920 --> 01:01:03.480 industrial area. But from my seat at the State 01:01:03.480 --> 01:01:05.860 Trade Association, almost I was there because 01:01:05.860 --> 01:01:08.179 we see this happening in other areas, too. This 01:01:08.179 --> 01:01:10.739 is not just a Seattle issue. You know, Everett 01:01:10.739 --> 01:01:13.070 has taken a really proactive approach where their 01:01:13.070 --> 01:01:15.969 port has a large public marina on the West Coast. 01:01:16.050 --> 01:01:19.769 They have restaurants and residential down on 01:01:19.769 --> 01:01:22.510 the water. But by pursuing it in one specific 01:01:22.510 --> 01:01:25.550 area, the port has sought to prevent it from 01:01:25.550 --> 01:01:28.190 encroaching on their industrial area. So different 01:01:28.190 --> 01:01:30.309 ports take different approaches to how they will 01:01:30.309 --> 01:01:32.489 manage this incompatibility between industrial 01:01:32.489 --> 01:01:34.849 operations and the things that general purpose 01:01:34.849 --> 01:01:37.030 governments do, like building housing for people 01:01:37.030 --> 01:01:39.809 who need housing. But it is, I think, an area 01:01:39.809 --> 01:01:41.480 that will get more challenging as well. Washington 01:01:41.480 --> 01:01:44.380 grows. So this is a fascinating topic to me, 01:01:44.500 --> 01:01:47.420 and it will be for most of our members as well, 01:01:47.480 --> 01:01:51.000 just because we are land use nerds. I mean, we 01:01:51.000 --> 01:01:55.500 geek out on GMA stuff. If we don't, it's pretty 01:01:55.500 --> 01:01:57.119 hard to be an effective county commissioner. 01:01:57.219 --> 01:01:58.820 Yeah, it's one of the great things you get to 01:01:58.820 --> 01:02:01.219 do to promote success in your community. And 01:02:01.219 --> 01:02:04.920 it's one of our biggest risk areas as well, because 01:02:04.920 --> 01:02:07.099 as you know, the GMA itself has a lot of built 01:02:07.099 --> 01:02:09.099 -in opportunity for third -party appeals with 01:02:09.099 --> 01:02:11.289 very little standing. requirements, all kinds 01:02:11.289 --> 01:02:14.750 of things that communities can get wrapped around 01:02:14.750 --> 01:02:16.989 the axle on. And if we don't do it properly, 01:02:17.250 --> 01:02:20.210 there are stiff penalties associated with access 01:02:20.210 --> 01:02:23.110 to really important economic development funds 01:02:23.110 --> 01:02:25.630 like public works assistance grants and things 01:02:25.630 --> 01:02:27.050 like that that can help build the infrastructure 01:02:27.050 --> 01:02:29.510 that, oh, I don't know, maybe a port district 01:02:29.510 --> 01:02:31.809 needs. Yeah, we need roads leading to our port 01:02:31.809 --> 01:02:34.650 terminals for sure. But when we're talking about 01:02:34.650 --> 01:02:37.210 preserving types of land, it's not just industrial 01:02:37.210 --> 01:02:39.550 lands that we deal with, right? We are also very 01:02:40.659 --> 01:02:43.159 responsible and cognizant of preserving things 01:02:43.159 --> 01:02:46.280 like resource lands for agriculture or for timber 01:02:46.280 --> 01:02:49.860 or for mining. Right. We also have airports. 01:02:50.039 --> 01:02:55.119 Right. Where we have to build kind of zones around 01:02:55.119 --> 01:02:57.059 for protection of the airport. We have central 01:02:57.059 --> 01:03:00.119 public facilities, prisons and, you know, all 01:03:00.119 --> 01:03:02.420 of those. We have to locate garbage dumps, wastewater 01:03:02.420 --> 01:03:04.579 facilities, the things that you don't want people 01:03:04.579 --> 01:03:07.760 living next to your entity, your, your. your 01:03:07.760 --> 01:03:10.099 counties and my ports are responsible for building. 01:03:10.260 --> 01:03:12.159 Another one that we spend a lot of time on in 01:03:12.159 --> 01:03:14.420 some communities is military bases, military 01:03:14.420 --> 01:03:17.300 installations. And, you know, how do you properly 01:03:17.300 --> 01:03:20.320 zone around those types of facilities so that 01:03:20.320 --> 01:03:23.880 you're not impeding the long -term goals and 01:03:23.880 --> 01:03:26.840 operations of those facilities with different 01:03:26.840 --> 01:03:29.880 types of land use activities? And, you know, 01:03:29.880 --> 01:03:32.079 there are best practices in place. There are 01:03:32.079 --> 01:03:35.139 best practices in place for airports, for sure, 01:03:35.179 --> 01:03:36.880 depending on the type of activity that the airport 01:03:36.880 --> 01:03:39.519 has. airport has or the type of growth projection 01:03:39.519 --> 01:03:41.280 that you want the airport to have. Because there's, 01:03:41.280 --> 01:03:43.679 I mean, there's SeaTac, right? And then there's 01:03:43.679 --> 01:03:46.039 Bowers Field and Kittitas County, right? They're 01:03:46.039 --> 01:03:49.920 not the same thing. But there's SeaTac and then 01:03:49.920 --> 01:03:53.159 there's, you know, Moses Lake. They're also not 01:03:53.159 --> 01:03:55.699 the same thing, right? But they could be, right? 01:03:55.760 --> 01:03:59.239 Moses Lake could be a lot bigger than it is because 01:03:59.239 --> 01:04:01.739 it's built to do that at some point in the future. 01:04:01.880 --> 01:04:07.679 You know, there's, you know, Small military bases 01:04:07.679 --> 01:04:10.440 and then very large military bases. There's highly 01:04:10.440 --> 01:04:13.820 developed military bases like JBLM. And then 01:04:13.820 --> 01:04:15.679 there's the Yakima Training Center, right, which 01:04:15.679 --> 01:04:18.099 are completely different. So how do you manage 01:04:18.099 --> 01:04:20.179 around those things? Are there best practices 01:04:20.179 --> 01:04:23.780 in place around port districts and industrial 01:04:23.780 --> 01:04:27.019 lands that you kind of go out and share when 01:04:27.019 --> 01:04:29.519 you're on these road trips or making comments? 01:04:29.659 --> 01:04:33.280 Or is that maybe an area that there's a gap? 01:04:33.849 --> 01:04:36.449 That we should be focusing on as associations 01:04:36.449 --> 01:04:38.969 to try to develop. Yeah, I mean, I think that 01:04:38.969 --> 01:04:41.289 I'll start with the last part because there is 01:04:41.289 --> 01:04:43.469 a gap. I mean, I think part of our challenge, 01:04:43.630 --> 01:04:46.989 not unique to my time at the Public Reports Association, 01:04:47.230 --> 01:04:49.250 but one of the things our association has tried 01:04:49.250 --> 01:04:52.130 to help our members with over time is communicating 01:04:52.130 --> 01:04:54.949 the value of the work that you do to your community. 01:04:55.250 --> 01:04:58.190 Because it's really easy to drive by a lay down 01:04:58.190 --> 01:05:01.679 yard for a... big construction project and think 01:05:01.679 --> 01:05:04.039 oh my god look at this industrial blight yeah 01:05:04.039 --> 01:05:06.219 it's so ugly unless you understand what it's 01:05:06.219 --> 01:05:08.659 meant to support you know maybe that's the site 01:05:08.659 --> 01:05:10.500 that we're going to get a cool new manufacturing 01:05:10.500 --> 01:05:12.460 facility where my uncle's going to go work right 01:05:12.460 --> 01:05:15.920 right and um our ports have historically just 01:05:15.920 --> 01:05:18.360 wanted to do their work without a lot of public 01:05:18.360 --> 01:05:21.659 attention and you know in seattle that that's 01:05:21.659 --> 01:05:23.820 kind of impossible in the bigger communities 01:05:23.820 --> 01:05:25.719 it's it's a challenge you know port of tacoma 01:05:25.719 --> 01:05:27.840 everyone drives by the port of tacoma every day 01:05:28.619 --> 01:05:30.679 But other ports have had a better, you know, 01:05:30.699 --> 01:05:32.860 you mentioned Moses Lake. There are ports who 01:05:32.860 --> 01:05:35.119 have, I would say, enjoyed more support from 01:05:35.119 --> 01:05:37.679 their communities because they're further away, 01:05:37.880 --> 01:05:40.800 right? Yeah. As population grows, that's no longer 01:05:40.800 --> 01:05:44.099 going to be the case. And so one thing WPPA tries 01:05:44.099 --> 01:05:46.139 to do is work with our members to say like, hey, 01:05:46.239 --> 01:05:48.440 you just experienced a great success. You just 01:05:48.440 --> 01:05:50.739 got a grant from. the federal government to build 01:05:50.739 --> 01:05:52.360 a new rail line that's going to make it easier 01:05:52.360 --> 01:05:55.179 for your ag producers to get their goods out 01:05:55.179 --> 01:05:57.840 of the port. That's a great story. Tell people 01:05:57.840 --> 01:05:59.639 about it because otherwise they're going to say, 01:05:59.719 --> 01:06:02.300 how come there's twice as many rail cars rolling 01:06:02.300 --> 01:06:04.840 through our community? So yeah, you asked if 01:06:04.840 --> 01:06:07.380 there's a gap. I think there's definitely a gap. 01:06:07.599 --> 01:06:10.000 I think that the other challenge that we face 01:06:10.000 --> 01:06:13.699 is that it is, I don't know, maybe it's... a 01:06:13.699 --> 01:06:16.179 part of modern times, but there just does seem 01:06:16.179 --> 01:06:18.420 to be more of a disconnect between how people 01:06:18.420 --> 01:06:20.199 live their lives and what our ports do. I mean, 01:06:20.239 --> 01:06:22.139 I'm not going to get on a soapbox, but like, 01:06:22.199 --> 01:06:25.820 you know, air cargo at SEA airport, by the way, 01:06:25.840 --> 01:06:27.639 it's been rebranded. Can't say SeaTac anymore. 01:06:28.019 --> 01:06:31.239 Oh, you can't? It's now SEA. You know, you got 01:06:31.239 --> 01:06:35.199 PDX, you got SEA, JFK, et cetera. So it's not, 01:06:35.320 --> 01:06:38.239 but yeah, but PDX is still Portland. Yeah, I 01:06:38.239 --> 01:06:39.820 know. But it's the call letters. Don't get me 01:06:39.820 --> 01:06:41.199 started. I just had to say that because, you 01:06:41.199 --> 01:06:43.309 know, my Port of Seattle overlords. call me and 01:06:43.309 --> 01:06:46.230 say, how dare you? But yeah, SEA airport has 01:06:46.230 --> 01:06:49.309 seen a huge increase in air cargo. A lot of that 01:06:49.309 --> 01:06:51.389 is driven by small package delivery. I'm still 01:06:51.389 --> 01:06:55.130 going to call it SeaTac. Yeah, I know. You won't 01:06:55.130 --> 01:06:57.650 be the only one. Plus the Tacoma people don't 01:06:57.650 --> 01:06:59.289 want us dropping the tack. Can we talk about 01:06:59.289 --> 01:07:00.989 how much it costs to park there? Can we talk 01:07:00.989 --> 01:07:03.210 about that? You know, I'll talk about any element 01:07:03.210 --> 01:07:04.349 because I don't work for the Port of Seattle 01:07:04.349 --> 01:07:06.769 anymore, but I'll tell you, former certain Senate 01:07:06.769 --> 01:07:08.969 majority leader, when I went into his office 01:07:08.969 --> 01:07:10.849 to introduce myself, I said, I represent Port 01:07:10.849 --> 01:07:12.989 of Seattle. Is there anything? He said, explain 01:07:12.989 --> 01:07:15.710 to me why it is so expensive to buy a beer at 01:07:15.710 --> 01:07:18.050 SeaTac Airport. So I'll let you figure out which 01:07:18.050 --> 01:07:20.090 one that was. But yeah, we get asked all kinds 01:07:20.090 --> 01:07:22.730 of questions. But I mean, consumer behavior drives 01:07:22.730 --> 01:07:25.690 what ports do. So going back to my earlier point, 01:07:25.829 --> 01:07:28.349 like there's no port that's just building a transload 01:07:28.349 --> 01:07:30.289 facility because they like the idea of having 01:07:30.289 --> 01:07:34.409 a bunch of stinky trucks delivering. boxes to 01:07:34.409 --> 01:07:37.070 loud clanking steel rail cars. They're doing 01:07:37.070 --> 01:07:40.090 it because agriculture is the lifeblood of the 01:07:40.090 --> 01:07:42.929 central Washington economy. And getting boxes 01:07:42.929 --> 01:07:45.389 to market quicker improves people's quality of 01:07:45.389 --> 01:07:49.719 life. SEA Airport, haha, is expanding. Not because 01:07:49.719 --> 01:07:53.699 they want that C -TAC, but like they're responding 01:07:53.699 --> 01:07:56.960 to public demand. So it's a, you know, JFK, not 01:07:56.960 --> 01:07:59.119 the airport. The U .S. president talked about 01:07:59.119 --> 01:08:02.760 the public education process. And I said earlier, 01:08:02.820 --> 01:08:04.139 you don't want to be in a position of saying 01:08:04.139 --> 01:08:07.219 this is good for you. Trust us. But it is a matter 01:08:07.219 --> 01:08:09.860 of communicating that what we do, what you do 01:08:09.860 --> 01:08:12.420 is responding to population growth. It's responding 01:08:12.420 --> 01:08:15.500 to changing consumer behavior. It's responding 01:08:15.500 --> 01:08:19.439 to global economic trends. And so. I think we 01:08:19.439 --> 01:08:22.140 confront a challenge where poor districts, because 01:08:22.140 --> 01:08:24.260 we're these limited purpose governments, we're 01:08:24.260 --> 01:08:27.439 viewed as almost semi -private or serving private 01:08:27.439 --> 01:08:29.880 industry. And so as we confront this communication 01:08:29.880 --> 01:08:32.279 challenge, we try to emphasize that what we're 01:08:32.279 --> 01:08:35.760 doing is responding to public demand to serve 01:08:35.760 --> 01:08:37.720 the communities that our commissioners represent 01:08:37.720 --> 01:08:40.220 the same way your commissioners are doing their 01:08:40.220 --> 01:08:42.560 jobs. I feel like there's a lot more to talk 01:08:42.560 --> 01:08:45.220 about. Yeah, that was a long one. Yeah, on that 01:08:45.220 --> 01:08:47.100 particular issue. Let's do a separate podcast 01:08:47.100 --> 01:08:49.279 on land use and industrial lands preservation. 01:08:49.300 --> 01:08:51.199 I feel like we could work out some best practices 01:08:51.199 --> 01:08:53.479 right now. It just feels like there needs to 01:08:53.479 --> 01:08:55.920 be some transition zones. Depending on the size 01:08:55.920 --> 01:08:58.060 of the industrial complex, the size of the port 01:08:58.060 --> 01:09:00.100 perhaps, there needs to be these transitional 01:09:00.100 --> 01:09:03.100 zones where maybe it's light industrial and then 01:09:03.100 --> 01:09:08.010 retail and commercial. different types of residential 01:09:08.010 --> 01:09:10.750 housing just to maintain those buffers. And some 01:09:10.750 --> 01:09:12.670 of those ports that, like you mentioned, like 01:09:12.670 --> 01:09:14.350 Moses Lake, where encroachment really hasn't 01:09:14.350 --> 01:09:16.489 happened, they have great opportunity to make 01:09:16.489 --> 01:09:19.130 sure that that sort of stuff is in place right 01:09:19.130 --> 01:09:21.789 now before they get that other pressure that 01:09:21.789 --> 01:09:25.149 the Port of Seattle and others are feeling. And 01:09:25.149 --> 01:09:30.210 because of another pressing problem, you get 01:09:30.210 --> 01:09:33.789 that a space is empty for a while and they automatically 01:09:33.789 --> 01:09:36.250 rezone it, transition to a different use. Yeah, 01:09:36.329 --> 01:09:39.750 but you're hitting on one of our well -worn political 01:09:39.750 --> 01:09:42.909 concerns, which is permanence of any zoning decision. 01:09:43.900 --> 01:09:46.979 Transition zones, great idea. What corporate 01:09:46.979 --> 01:09:48.840 name shall we call it? When Safeco Field was 01:09:48.840 --> 01:09:53.319 built, to show my age. I prefer the name. And 01:09:53.319 --> 01:09:56.479 then Quest Field. Those were built in a zoned 01:09:56.479 --> 01:09:58.619 industrial area. So as you can imagine, the Port 01:09:58.619 --> 01:10:01.319 of Seattle and the ag growers in central Washington 01:10:01.319 --> 01:10:02.979 were saying, how the heck are we going to get 01:10:02.979 --> 01:10:05.439 our trucks to Terminal 46 if there's two giant 01:10:05.439 --> 01:10:08.399 stadiums there? Right. Especially on game day. 01:10:08.439 --> 01:10:10.479 So there was this brilliant idea called a Stadium 01:10:10.479 --> 01:10:13.750 Transition Area Overlay District. district where 01:10:13.750 --> 01:10:16.010 there could be limited applications of retail. 01:10:16.109 --> 01:10:19.949 Now I really am on my soapbox. Retail, the Silver 01:10:19.949 --> 01:10:22.090 Cloud Hotel right across from T -Mobile, but 01:10:22.090 --> 01:10:24.890 no residential. And that was a compromise. It 01:10:24.890 --> 01:10:27.789 was a compromise that was struck over long, difficult 01:10:27.789 --> 01:10:30.850 conversations in the early 2000s. And then guess 01:10:30.850 --> 01:10:33.390 what? In 2015, when Chris Hansen wanted to put 01:10:33.390 --> 01:10:35.670 a basketball arena down there, he said, just 01:10:35.670 --> 01:10:38.970 a little bit of housing. We said, as a compromise, 01:10:39.130 --> 01:10:40.789 maybe the port would compromise. And we said, 01:10:41.199 --> 01:10:43.479 We already compromised. But it was 15 years ago. 01:10:43.520 --> 01:10:45.300 None of the city council members are the same. 01:10:45.399 --> 01:10:46.819 None of the port commissioners are the same. 01:10:46.899 --> 01:10:49.079 Politics change. And so the idea of a transition 01:10:49.079 --> 01:10:51.699 area is great until that transition area moves 01:10:51.699 --> 01:10:53.819 over three blocks and then moves over three blocks. 01:10:53.920 --> 01:10:56.039 And nobody remembers what the original transition 01:10:56.039 --> 01:10:59.720 area was. So, I mean, I think permanence is key. 01:10:59.899 --> 01:11:02.180 You know, ports need permanence in order to attract. 01:11:02.840 --> 01:11:05.140 terminal operator to say, hey, we can guarantee 01:11:05.140 --> 01:11:07.640 you that this will stay free of pedestrian traffic 01:11:07.640 --> 01:11:10.739 for your trucks. And so I think that's the key 01:11:10.739 --> 01:11:13.159 in zoning for ports is that permanence. And that's, 01:11:13.159 --> 01:11:14.399 you know, going back to the very beginning of 01:11:14.399 --> 01:11:16.619 this conversation, unless you want to amend GMA 01:11:16.619 --> 01:11:19.060 to sort of require that local governments agree, 01:11:19.340 --> 01:11:22.399 then the best practice is communication. I mean, 01:11:22.420 --> 01:11:25.619 I think. The ports that I've heard success stories 01:11:25.619 --> 01:11:28.119 from in the zoning arena are ports that talk 01:11:28.119 --> 01:11:30.039 all the time with their cities and their counties. 01:11:30.079 --> 01:11:31.880 The counties know what their projects are coming 01:11:31.880 --> 01:11:34.659 forward in their comp plan. We at the Port of 01:11:34.659 --> 01:11:37.359 Seattle got to that place with the Harrell administration 01:11:37.359 --> 01:11:40.119 early on. There was real harmony between the 01:11:40.119 --> 01:11:42.600 city and the port. You're talking about Seattle 01:11:42.600 --> 01:11:44.560 Mayor Bruce Harrell? Seattle Mayor Bruce Harrell. 01:11:44.920 --> 01:11:47.600 And there have been historically better and worse. 01:11:48.029 --> 01:11:50.430 phases of and i would say that's the same across 01:11:50.430 --> 01:11:52.930 all of our members it's very personality dependent 01:11:52.930 --> 01:11:55.810 so you know, you and I both worked in politics. 01:11:55.949 --> 01:11:58.229 Like I have your phone number. You called me 01:11:58.229 --> 01:12:00.109 to tell me you were bringing that energy bill 01:12:00.109 --> 01:12:02.750 forward. I'll call you if so. So it's about communication 01:12:02.750 --> 01:12:05.670 and that's a pretty boring best practice, but 01:12:05.670 --> 01:12:08.229 maybe it's fitting for a podcast. Yeah, it probably 01:12:08.229 --> 01:12:11.029 is. You know, we've been going for over an hour. 01:12:11.210 --> 01:12:13.489 Yeah. I can't, you know, you were nervous about 01:12:13.489 --> 01:12:14.970 coming in here. Didn't think we'd have anything 01:12:14.970 --> 01:12:17.390 to talk about. And now I'm worried we will never 01:12:17.390 --> 01:12:20.109 stop. I was going to say that last like two minutes 01:12:20.109 --> 01:12:22.529 brought up about seven different questions that 01:12:22.529 --> 01:12:24.140 I thought, well, I could add. this i could add 01:12:24.140 --> 01:12:25.760 that we haven't talked about housing or transportation 01:12:25.760 --> 01:12:27.579 oh my god we could keep going and i'm supposed 01:12:27.579 --> 01:12:29.399 to be making chicken noodle soup for my wife 01:12:29.399 --> 01:12:31.220 didn't i tell you that you did because she's 01:12:31.220 --> 01:12:33.079 not feeling very good i want some of that chicken 01:12:33.079 --> 01:12:35.800 noodle soup too and you totally got off the hook 01:12:35.800 --> 01:12:37.960 i didn't even get a chance to bring up tariffs 01:12:37.960 --> 01:12:40.640 yeah so my tariff answer is quick and i'll tell 01:12:40.640 --> 01:12:42.640 anybody who listens like People want to know 01:12:42.640 --> 01:12:44.760 what the impact of tariff changes on ports are 01:12:44.760 --> 01:12:46.779 going to be. The short answer is we don't know. 01:12:46.880 --> 01:12:49.199 The slightly less short answer is, but we're 01:12:49.199 --> 01:12:51.659 still dealing with the fallout from the 2017, 01:12:52.039 --> 01:12:55.119 2018 tariffs. I can't tell you what's going to 01:12:55.119 --> 01:12:56.819 happen with the new tariffs. I can tell you that 01:12:56.819 --> 01:13:00.100 our ag exports to China are still down 40 % from 01:13:00.100 --> 01:13:01.319 2018. I was going to say we're still down like 01:13:01.319 --> 01:13:05.039 30, 40%, right? And our ports without a tariff. 01:13:05.239 --> 01:13:08.060 without tariff upheaval are still being out -competed 01:13:08.060 --> 01:13:10.539 by ports in Canada, where the government in Canada 01:13:10.539 --> 01:13:13.220 is literally investing with the intention of 01:13:13.220 --> 01:13:15.899 taking boxes out of Washington ports and putting 01:13:15.899 --> 01:13:19.579 them in Canadian ports. So those dynamics are 01:13:19.579 --> 01:13:21.760 already in play, and they're not being made any 01:13:21.760 --> 01:13:24.560 easier by the tariffs. So we don't know exactly 01:13:24.560 --> 01:13:27.340 what the numerical impacts of the current tariff 01:13:27.340 --> 01:13:29.180 regime is going to be, but we know it's going 01:13:29.180 --> 01:13:31.520 to compound all the challenges our ports are 01:13:31.520 --> 01:13:34.420 already facing. And that's about as simple as 01:13:34.420 --> 01:13:36.560 I can put it. Well, it's a good way to end the 01:13:36.560 --> 01:13:39.779 podcast, although I think, again, that just adds 01:13:39.779 --> 01:13:41.960 more questions to the list. I think people want 01:13:41.960 --> 01:13:46.260 to know, though, what is your chicken soup recipe? 01:13:48.720 --> 01:13:50.979 God, I can't give it all away. Your wife's not 01:13:50.979 --> 01:13:53.020 feeling well. Yeah. You mentioned that you had 01:13:53.020 --> 01:13:55.039 to get out of here so you could go make her chicken 01:13:55.039 --> 01:13:57.779 soup. I think that was all before I started. 01:13:58.140 --> 01:14:01.079 the podcast yeah not mistaken well i was lamenting 01:14:01.079 --> 01:14:03.319 that the one cure to three hours you said it 01:14:03.319 --> 01:14:05.279 took to make this yeah and that that's kind of 01:14:05.279 --> 01:14:08.039 the quick workaround and the problem is is that 01:14:08.039 --> 01:14:10.380 she now you know you want your wife to like your 01:14:10.380 --> 01:14:12.000 cooking right but what if she likes it so much 01:14:12.000 --> 01:14:14.220 that the second she gets a sniffle it's like 01:14:14.220 --> 01:14:16.140 all right off to the chicken soup factory with 01:14:16.140 --> 01:14:20.000 you so the key is um i roast a bunch of peppers 01:14:20.000 --> 01:14:22.619 in the oven Like Anaheim peppers, Serrano pepper, 01:14:22.779 --> 01:14:24.479 and jalapeno peppers. And then, you know, you're 01:14:24.479 --> 01:14:26.319 always making a chicken soup with the onions, 01:14:26.399 --> 01:14:29.819 celery, and carrots. I add these peppers in for 01:14:29.819 --> 01:14:33.819 the stewing portion so that it makes it a spicier 01:14:33.819 --> 01:14:35.699 broth. And I think it adds a little bit of depth 01:14:35.699 --> 01:14:39.039 to the broth. So do you use the whole chicken? 01:14:39.119 --> 01:14:41.659 Do you use chicken bones? Boil the whole chicken. 01:14:41.779 --> 01:14:44.300 And then if you have three hours, you can take 01:14:44.300 --> 01:14:45.979 out the chicken once it's done cooking and then 01:14:45.979 --> 01:14:47.899 put all the bones back in and let that go while 01:14:47.899 --> 01:14:49.619 you do the rest of your prep. And then you get 01:14:49.619 --> 01:14:52.579 something. approximating bone broth i mean i'm 01:14:52.579 --> 01:14:54.920 sure like everybody else you know i during the 01:14:54.920 --> 01:14:57.180 pandemic when i was stuck at home because i wasn't 01:14:57.180 --> 01:14:58.779 allowed to go into the port offices i looked 01:14:58.779 --> 01:15:01.020 up how to make bone broth and i said who's got 01:15:01.020 --> 01:15:03.279 time for that but this is a during the pandemic 01:15:03.279 --> 01:15:07.000 this is a quicker version uh i'm not using it 01:15:07.000 --> 01:15:09.520 as an excuse i really enjoyed this and um i mean 01:15:09.520 --> 01:15:11.600 i should just say like i think it's nice to work 01:15:11.600 --> 01:15:13.300 with people that you get along with that you 01:15:13.300 --> 01:15:15.960 respect um you and i could probably confront 01:15:15.960 --> 01:15:18.460 bigger issues than we confronted in house bill 01:15:18.460 --> 01:15:21.760 1960 but i think given the how the session has 01:15:21.760 --> 01:15:24.859 worked out you and i and and hopefully people 01:15:24.859 --> 01:15:27.399 listening and our members will want us to keep 01:15:27.399 --> 01:15:29.539 working on some of these problems. Yeah, likewise. 01:15:30.420 --> 01:15:32.300 It's been a great relationship so far. I'm so 01:15:32.300 --> 01:15:34.859 glad you came to do the podcast. I hope you'll 01:15:34.859 --> 01:15:37.079 come back. I think we have a lot of things to 01:15:37.079 --> 01:15:41.220 talk about, especially legislatively, but otherwise. 01:15:41.560 --> 01:15:44.159 And it's just so important that counties and 01:15:44.159 --> 01:15:47.279 ports really understand one another, what they 01:15:47.279 --> 01:15:50.159 do and how they can. collaborate together to 01:15:50.159 --> 01:15:52.920 get better outcomes than if they were just operating 01:15:52.920 --> 01:15:56.600 alone. I think that really is key. And I know 01:15:56.600 --> 01:15:58.939 not even all of our counties have ports. That's 01:15:58.939 --> 01:16:00.659 a whole other line of questioning that I was 01:16:00.659 --> 01:16:03.100 going to go into. 33 out of 39. How do you get 01:16:03.100 --> 01:16:05.020 a port if you don't have one? And what if you 01:16:05.020 --> 01:16:06.659 want more than one? And I mean, there's so many 01:16:06.659 --> 01:16:09.119 other things to talk about, but you've got to 01:16:09.119 --> 01:16:12.500 go make chicken soup. I get it. Tell your wife 01:16:12.500 --> 01:16:15.199 that I hope she feels better soon. Thank you. 01:16:15.220 --> 01:16:16.680 And thanks for having me on. All right. Thanks, 01:16:16.680 --> 01:16:21.029 Eric. Cool. Thanks for tuning in to County Connection. 01:16:21.050 --> 01:16:23.250 Stay in the loop by subscribing to us through 01:16:23.250 --> 01:16:25.550 your preferred podcasting app and following us 01:16:25.550 --> 01:16:28.550 on LinkedIn, Facebook and Instagram. And don't 01:16:28.550 --> 01:16:30.510 forget to join the hub, your go to source for 01:16:30.510 --> 01:16:32.270 the latest news and updates from the Washington 01:16:32.270 --> 01:16:34.970 State Association of Counties. Until next time, 01:16:34.970 --> 01:16:36.670 stay connected and stay informed.