WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:01.419 If you have a lot of tattoos, then it's like, 00:00:01.520 --> 00:00:03.740 oh, okay, another tattoo. Not a big deal. But 00:00:03.740 --> 00:00:06.580 if you have zero and now you have to get one, 00:00:06.719 --> 00:00:09.759 that would be weird. The Care Bears kicking a 00:00:09.759 --> 00:00:11.800 field goal. I'd take that over the Justin Bieber. 00:00:12.300 --> 00:00:15.359 I would, too. Care Bears are cute. That's fine. 00:00:15.439 --> 00:00:17.899 That's nostalgic, connected to my childhood. 00:00:17.899 --> 00:00:23.559 Justin Bieber's face. I don't want any celebrity's 00:00:23.559 --> 00:00:28.640 face tattooed on me. God, no. Welcome to County 00:00:28.640 --> 00:00:30.940 Connection. the official podcast of the Washington 00:00:30.940 --> 00:00:33.340 State Association of Counties, where we dive 00:00:33.340 --> 00:00:35.460 into the legislative issues shaping the future 00:00:35.460 --> 00:00:37.920 of our communities. From budgets to public safety, 00:00:38.100 --> 00:00:40.719 infrastructure to elections, we'll break down 00:00:40.719 --> 00:00:43.359 what's happening in Olympia and how it impacts 00:00:43.359 --> 00:00:46.000 counties from across the Evergreen State. Stay 00:00:46.000 --> 00:00:48.939 informed, stay engaged, and join us as we amplify 00:00:48.939 --> 00:00:53.469 the voice of Washington's 39 counties. Welcome 00:00:53.469 --> 00:00:55.490 back, everybody, to the County Connection Podcast. 00:00:55.869 --> 00:00:57.609 I'm Paul Jewell, the Government Relations Director 00:00:57.609 --> 00:01:00.369 for the Washington State Association of Counties. 00:01:00.369 --> 00:01:03.929 I'm back in the studio on this Wednesday, April 00:01:03.929 --> 00:01:06.329 9th afternoon with a different guest this time, 00:01:06.450 --> 00:01:09.390 Kelsey Hulse. How's it going? There are less 00:01:09.390 --> 00:01:11.969 than 18 days left in this legislative session, 00:01:12.109 --> 00:01:14.609 Paul. There are less than 18 days. It is day 00:01:14.609 --> 00:01:18.609 87 of the 105 -day session, but we don't count 00:01:18.609 --> 00:01:21.200 the days here at WASAC. We just make the days 00:01:21.200 --> 00:01:24.079 count. But it is fun to count them down, especially 00:01:24.079 --> 00:01:28.060 when you've only got 18 days left. What are we 00:01:28.060 --> 00:01:32.400 watching still in the environment? Well, I guess 00:01:32.400 --> 00:01:35.840 not environment, but natural resources and land 00:01:35.840 --> 00:01:40.980 use kind of arena as far as policy bills go and 00:01:40.980 --> 00:01:45.099 as far as the budgets go. There are a variety 00:01:45.099 --> 00:01:47.879 of things going on, of course, as we've talked 00:01:47.879 --> 00:01:50.420 about multiple times on this podcast. The budget 00:01:50.420 --> 00:01:55.519 conversation is kind of sucking more and more 00:01:55.519 --> 00:01:58.780 air out of the room and taking up more and more 00:01:58.780 --> 00:02:01.920 of the bandwidth. So we're, of course, keeping 00:02:01.920 --> 00:02:05.799 a close eye on that, including things like habitat 00:02:05.799 --> 00:02:10.620 restoration funding for salmon projects. Funding 00:02:10.620 --> 00:02:13.460 for planning grants through the Department of 00:02:13.460 --> 00:02:18.340 Commerce. So there's a number of budget pieces 00:02:18.340 --> 00:02:21.639 that we're looking at in that vein, as well as 00:02:21.639 --> 00:02:24.360 just keeping an eye kind of on the totality of 00:02:24.360 --> 00:02:27.960 the conversation, including revenue. And we've 00:02:27.960 --> 00:02:30.439 got a variety of revenue pieces that also will 00:02:30.439 --> 00:02:33.180 affect counties. I'm sure you and Axel have talked 00:02:33.180 --> 00:02:36.300 a little bit about 5804. We have, yeah. That 00:02:36.300 --> 00:02:39.469 diverts the public. utility tax. Yeah, we haven't 00:02:39.469 --> 00:02:41.590 had a chance to talk about it on the podcast 00:02:41.590 --> 00:02:44.210 yet. I'll probably reserve that one for when 00:02:44.210 --> 00:02:46.909 Axel can join us. But definitely an interesting 00:02:46.909 --> 00:02:48.949 bill and one that we're following very closely. 00:02:49.129 --> 00:02:51.129 And for the listeners out there, if you want 00:02:51.129 --> 00:02:52.569 to take a look at it, again, that was Senate 00:02:52.569 --> 00:02:58.949 Bill 5804. But that's an interesting bill that 00:02:58.949 --> 00:03:00.530 affects the Public Works Assistance account, 00:03:00.650 --> 00:03:03.169 but has an impact on kind of that fish habitat 00:03:03.169 --> 00:03:07.909 stuff that you were mentioning. Axel, get into 00:03:07.909 --> 00:03:10.789 the finer points of that one, but certainly just 00:03:10.789 --> 00:03:13.090 a whole variety of revenue options, some of which 00:03:13.090 --> 00:03:15.530 we've already seen. There's still new ones coming 00:03:15.530 --> 00:03:18.310 out of the woodwork every day. I think yesterday 00:03:18.310 --> 00:03:21.909 there was a bill introduced to tax. Dating apps. 00:03:22.349 --> 00:03:24.030 Yeah, I saw that one. That's pretty interesting. 00:03:24.229 --> 00:03:26.710 No direct impact on counties, as far as I know, 00:03:26.830 --> 00:03:31.129 but a creative way to generate some revenue. 00:03:31.370 --> 00:03:33.229 Did that come, you know, I didn't get a chance 00:03:33.229 --> 00:03:35.090 to look at it too closely. Did that come from 00:03:35.090 --> 00:03:37.330 the minority party or the majority party? The 00:03:37.330 --> 00:03:40.250 majority party. It did. Also, the very clever 00:03:40.250 --> 00:03:43.310 Dallas Roberts, who is Denny Heck's chief of 00:03:43.310 --> 00:03:45.270 staff, Lieutenant Governor Heck's chief of staff, 00:03:45.409 --> 00:03:48.110 has nicknamed it the Tinder tax, which is perfect. 00:03:48.110 --> 00:03:51.300 That is clever. Very clever. So we'll see where 00:03:51.300 --> 00:03:53.919 that one goes. But I think we can expect that 00:03:53.919 --> 00:03:56.659 we will continue that the landscape around both 00:03:56.659 --> 00:03:58.560 revenue and budget is not going to be completely 00:03:58.560 --> 00:04:01.659 settled until hopefully the 11th hour prior to 00:04:01.659 --> 00:04:04.000 the sine die on the 27th. But it's interesting 00:04:04.000 --> 00:04:06.060 that you say that, you know, we've hit this stage 00:04:06.060 --> 00:04:08.400 in session. I mentioned yesterday was a major 00:04:08.400 --> 00:04:10.879 cutoff. It was the fiscal. cutoff for the opposite 00:04:10.879 --> 00:04:13.080 house, right? So all the bills that had already 00:04:13.080 --> 00:04:14.699 been through the Senate or are the bills that 00:04:14.699 --> 00:04:15.919 had already been through the house, they have 00:04:15.919 --> 00:04:18.500 to flip and do it all again. So they have to 00:04:18.500 --> 00:04:21.680 get through that second major hurdle, that second 00:04:21.680 --> 00:04:23.959 major milestone, which is the fiscal committee 00:04:23.959 --> 00:04:26.600 cutoff. Usually at this point in session, because 00:04:26.600 --> 00:04:29.660 it's the opposite house, really now we just look 00:04:29.660 --> 00:04:31.240 forward to floor action. And that's going to 00:04:31.240 --> 00:04:34.300 be the majority of what happens between now and 00:04:34.300 --> 00:04:38.040 the 16th, which is the next cutoff, right? Where 00:04:38.040 --> 00:04:40.019 all the bills have to be off. their opposite 00:04:40.019 --> 00:04:44.579 house floors. But it doesn't mean that's the 00:04:44.579 --> 00:04:47.000 only thing that we're going to see. And what 00:04:47.000 --> 00:04:49.360 I mean by is usually policy committees are done 00:04:49.360 --> 00:04:52.589 by now. But we might still see some revenue bills 00:04:52.589 --> 00:04:55.310 that need to be heard in policy committees because 00:04:55.310 --> 00:04:57.009 they haven't been heard or because they're still 00:04:57.009 --> 00:04:59.310 going to be introduced. I noticed there's some 00:04:59.310 --> 00:05:01.930 bills I think could be exacted either tomorrow 00:05:01.930 --> 00:05:05.290 or the next day in House Finance. So it's a little 00:05:05.290 --> 00:05:07.490 unusual for that to be happening at this stage 00:05:07.490 --> 00:05:09.629 in the session. But when you're working a budget 00:05:09.629 --> 00:05:12.350 year like we are now, and especially when you're 00:05:12.350 --> 00:05:14.490 working a year where you've got some fiscal... 00:05:15.240 --> 00:05:17.899 you know, challenges, it's not unusual to see 00:05:17.899 --> 00:05:21.500 this type of stuff happen even after the cutoff 00:05:21.500 --> 00:05:23.699 period, right? Yeah, I think the budget committees 00:05:23.699 --> 00:05:27.980 probably should not consider their work complete 00:05:27.980 --> 00:05:30.379 until... Well, I mean, they're negotiating the 00:05:30.379 --> 00:05:33.220 budgets anyways, but even the fiscal committees 00:05:33.220 --> 00:05:35.579 that don't necessarily write the budget, they're 00:05:35.579 --> 00:05:38.220 going to be busy too. Yep. Yeah, exactly. It'll 00:05:38.220 --> 00:05:39.740 be interesting to see how some of that develops. 00:05:39.860 --> 00:05:41.860 We got the tender tax today. What will we get 00:05:41.860 --> 00:05:45.019 tomorrow? Who knows? That's exactly it. I think 00:05:45.019 --> 00:05:49.639 with the uncertainty that the governor has introduced 00:05:49.639 --> 00:05:52.060 into the conversation with his resistance to 00:05:52.060 --> 00:05:56.740 the wealth tax, that also is pushing particularly 00:05:56.740 --> 00:05:59.740 House members to think creatively about other 00:05:59.740 --> 00:06:02.120 ways that they could generate revenue. So I think 00:06:02.120 --> 00:06:03.660 we'll continue to see that kind of activity. 00:06:03.920 --> 00:06:06.920 Yeah, when Jamie was here a little earlier today, 00:06:06.980 --> 00:06:08.600 we had a really good conversation about that 00:06:08.600 --> 00:06:11.860 wealth tax bill or the, I think it's called financial 00:06:11.860 --> 00:06:15.899 intangibles tax bill. What else are you hearing 00:06:15.899 --> 00:06:19.240 budget -wise before we get into policy? Anything 00:06:19.240 --> 00:06:21.819 else interesting? I think the biggest thing that 00:06:21.819 --> 00:06:25.639 we are, or it makes sense to pay attention to, 00:06:25.819 --> 00:06:29.550 is this year. You may have heard legislators 00:06:29.550 --> 00:06:33.550 note that rather than dealing with each budget 00:06:33.550 --> 00:06:37.189 in its own silo, they have looked at the budget 00:06:37.189 --> 00:06:39.829 sort of across the three, transportation, capital, 00:06:39.970 --> 00:06:41.829 and operating. Right, we have heard that. Where 00:06:41.829 --> 00:06:44.850 do we have resources and where do we need them? 00:06:44.930 --> 00:06:47.870 And how do we potentially shift things across 00:06:47.870 --> 00:06:49.750 those budgets? So there's a lot more shifting. 00:06:50.329 --> 00:06:52.089 than there has been in the past. Exactly. If 00:06:52.089 --> 00:06:54.629 you're a real budget wonk, you can get into the 00:06:54.629 --> 00:06:56.230 budget documents themselves and you can actually 00:06:56.230 --> 00:06:59.449 see that. It's not as apparent kind of in the 00:06:59.449 --> 00:07:01.310 narratives, unless you know what you're really 00:07:01.310 --> 00:07:04.089 looking for, but you can see it in the budget 00:07:04.089 --> 00:07:06.110 bills themselves. And there's a lot more of it 00:07:06.110 --> 00:07:08.389 there than there has been before. Yeah. So seeing 00:07:08.389 --> 00:07:12.009 that 5804 that we mentioned before, shifting 00:07:12.009 --> 00:07:15.889 essentially the state's culvert obligation under 00:07:15.889 --> 00:07:18.480 the settlement agreement. from the transportation 00:07:18.480 --> 00:07:22.439 budget into the capital budget. We've got a shift 00:07:22.439 --> 00:07:26.319 in the Senate budget of sales tax revenue for 00:07:26.319 --> 00:07:29.000 vehicles from the operating budget into the transportation 00:07:29.000 --> 00:07:31.259 budget. So there's a number of these shifts. 00:07:32.509 --> 00:07:34.850 Some of which have happened in the past, but 00:07:34.850 --> 00:07:36.709 I don't think we've ever seen a year where there 00:07:36.709 --> 00:07:38.589 have been so many. It does feel like there's 00:07:38.589 --> 00:07:42.290 more. And that apparently was a strategy for 00:07:42.290 --> 00:07:45.970 budget writers, but that means that it's much 00:07:45.970 --> 00:07:48.689 harder to pull on just one thread without kind 00:07:48.689 --> 00:07:51.509 of unraveling the whole thing. So I think negotiating 00:07:51.509 --> 00:07:55.569 between two very different ways of doing that 00:07:55.569 --> 00:07:59.540 is... even a little more complex than it would 00:07:59.540 --> 00:08:01.399 otherwise be. The challenge that you can really 00:08:01.399 --> 00:08:03.879 run into when you mix and match a lot of that 00:08:03.879 --> 00:08:06.339 stuff too in the future is as the legislature 00:08:06.339 --> 00:08:10.459 turns over, which it often does, you lose some 00:08:10.459 --> 00:08:12.199 knowledge of kind of what has happened in the 00:08:12.199 --> 00:08:14.560 past. Now, the good thing is the staff tends 00:08:14.560 --> 00:08:16.319 to be, especially the senior staff on the budget 00:08:16.319 --> 00:08:18.060 writer side, they tend to be a little bit more 00:08:18.060 --> 00:08:20.319 stable, but even that can be a problem. The other 00:08:20.319 --> 00:08:22.899 problem that you can run into with doing that 00:08:22.899 --> 00:08:26.040 is you can create a dependence on a particular 00:08:26.040 --> 00:08:28.980 revenue source. that you weren't really intending 00:08:28.980 --> 00:08:31.240 to create a dependence on because you've shifted 00:08:31.240 --> 00:08:34.639 so much of, say, a particular agency's otherwise 00:08:34.639 --> 00:08:39.820 general fund support to another fund, and that 00:08:39.820 --> 00:08:42.360 can become really hard to get them off of later. 00:08:42.740 --> 00:08:45.700 And it may not just be the agency that wants 00:08:45.700 --> 00:08:47.840 to get off that funding, but it may be that the 00:08:47.840 --> 00:08:50.889 legislature now. decides that we have a better 00:08:50.889 --> 00:08:52.950 year and we're just going to keep them on that 00:08:52.950 --> 00:08:55.309 funding and take that general fund capacity and 00:08:55.309 --> 00:08:58.769 spend it somewhere else. So that can be a problem. 00:08:58.889 --> 00:09:02.330 And if you're an agency or a partner like a local 00:09:02.330 --> 00:09:05.909 government that loses some funding, quote unquote, 00:09:06.049 --> 00:09:09.340 temporarily to a transfer. it can be also very 00:09:09.340 --> 00:09:11.940 hard to get it back when those sorts of transfers 00:09:11.940 --> 00:09:14.259 occur, especially when they're weaving them in 00:09:14.259 --> 00:09:16.879 the budgets like they are right now. Well, let's 00:09:16.879 --> 00:09:19.139 talk about policy bills. I know that you're still 00:09:19.139 --> 00:09:21.940 following a couple of key bills for us. Some 00:09:21.940 --> 00:09:24.720 have some pretty important implications for local 00:09:24.720 --> 00:09:27.539 governments from a land use perspective. I know 00:09:27.539 --> 00:09:30.240 we talked about parking kind of ad nauseum here 00:09:30.240 --> 00:09:33.399 at the County Connection podcast, but it's been 00:09:33.399 --> 00:09:37.279 an important issue in the legislature this year. 00:09:37.289 --> 00:09:38.750 Here, it's been important. In previous years, 00:09:38.809 --> 00:09:41.269 it's been important. And from our point of view 00:09:41.269 --> 00:09:44.950 as counties, as regulators with land use authority 00:09:44.950 --> 00:09:47.330 and development authority, it's a really important 00:09:47.330 --> 00:09:50.429 tool that we use to kind of manage traffic, to 00:09:50.429 --> 00:09:53.490 manage demand, to manage public safety, etc. 00:09:54.590 --> 00:09:56.669 One bill that I know you've been working on a 00:09:56.669 --> 00:10:00.370 lot is 5184. And I thought we had a lot of that 00:10:00.370 --> 00:10:02.389 settled. But I know that you've been in conversations 00:10:02.389 --> 00:10:05.509 with some other stakeholders on that bill, along 00:10:05.509 --> 00:10:07.710 with Curtis. may change some of that. Why don't 00:10:07.710 --> 00:10:09.590 you fill us in on what's been going on? Yeah, 00:10:09.610 --> 00:10:12.870 there are essentially two bills, two parking 00:10:12.870 --> 00:10:16.509 bills that are still moving. 5184 in the Senate, 00:10:16.590 --> 00:10:19.509 which was sponsored by Senator Bateman, and 1183 00:10:19.509 --> 00:10:22.169 in the House, which was sponsored by Representative 00:10:22.169 --> 00:10:27.809 Doerr, both of which create new restrictions 00:10:27.809 --> 00:10:31.629 on where local jurisdictions can mandate parking, 00:10:31.850 --> 00:10:35.179 what types of developments. They do it in slightly 00:10:35.179 --> 00:10:39.120 different ways and the scope of the bills and 00:10:39.120 --> 00:10:41.539 the different development or property types that 00:10:41.539 --> 00:10:44.500 they apply to are slightly different. So one 00:10:44.500 --> 00:10:46.179 of the things that we've been watching closely 00:10:46.179 --> 00:10:48.799 is how they're going to reconcile the two of 00:10:48.799 --> 00:10:52.759 those at the end, right? Because they're not 00:10:52.759 --> 00:10:56.059 going to want to pass two bills that are in conflict. 00:10:56.279 --> 00:10:59.000 And that's what we're seeing happen right now. 00:10:59.179 --> 00:11:02.110 So each bill has kind of... been amended in small 00:11:02.110 --> 00:11:04.470 ways during the course of the legislative process. 00:11:05.690 --> 00:11:08.289 And now they are trying to figure out what the 00:11:08.289 --> 00:11:11.570 appropriate middle ground is. So, for example, 00:11:11.789 --> 00:11:17.090 in 5184, an amendment was added to add a population 00:11:17.090 --> 00:11:20.809 threshold under which the provisions of the bill 00:11:20.809 --> 00:11:23.889 wouldn't apply. That population threshold was 00:11:23.889 --> 00:11:27.149 addressed to cities and code cities, which are 00:11:27.149 --> 00:11:29.570 two different sections of the bill, but not to 00:11:29.570 --> 00:11:33.590 counties. And so our request has been to have 00:11:33.590 --> 00:11:35.559 a similar population threshold for. counties 00:11:35.559 --> 00:11:38.279 well sure why wouldn't it make sense that you'd 00:11:38.279 --> 00:11:40.480 have that in place for counties otherwise you'd 00:11:40.480 --> 00:11:43.879 have these big maybe holes i guess right within 00:11:43.879 --> 00:11:46.659 a county structure where parking regulation minimum 00:11:46.659 --> 00:11:50.500 minimum you know restrictions didn't apply but 00:11:50.500 --> 00:11:53.259 in other areas outside of really kind of the 00:11:53.259 --> 00:11:57.539 dense places where the cars typically are, they 00:11:57.539 --> 00:11:59.539 would apply. That doesn't seem like it would 00:11:59.539 --> 00:12:01.399 make a lot of sense. Yeah, and you're getting 00:12:01.399 --> 00:12:04.000 at one of the other amendments that we have requested, 00:12:04.100 --> 00:12:07.740 which is if a city is exempt from the bill, then 00:12:07.740 --> 00:12:10.100 the UGA around that city should also be exempt. 00:12:10.340 --> 00:12:13.000 Okay, and just for the listeners, again, a UGA 00:12:13.000 --> 00:12:16.000 is? Urban Growth Area. And why are they around 00:12:16.000 --> 00:12:19.980 cities typically? It is essentially the area 00:12:19.980 --> 00:12:24.259 where the local jurisdictions have planned to 00:12:24.259 --> 00:12:26.620 accommodate growth. Right. As the city continues 00:12:26.620 --> 00:12:28.539 to grow. Exactly. Where are they going to put 00:12:28.539 --> 00:12:30.320 people? Under the Growth Management Act, it's 00:12:30.320 --> 00:12:32.139 a 20 -year growth boundary for the city. So that's 00:12:32.139 --> 00:12:34.620 the area that eventually should become the city. 00:12:34.720 --> 00:12:37.639 And it's supposed to be developed at a higher 00:12:37.639 --> 00:12:40.350 density standard. more like a city standard. 00:12:40.529 --> 00:12:42.049 Or at least be progressing in that direction. 00:12:42.289 --> 00:12:45.250 Right. And so the idea that that area would be 00:12:45.250 --> 00:12:47.470 subject to these parking regulation restrictions, 00:12:47.590 --> 00:12:49.929 but not the city itself, just seems silly to 00:12:49.929 --> 00:12:53.809 me. Yeah. And, you know, ideally, cities will 00:12:53.809 --> 00:12:57.210 eventually annex those urban growth areas into 00:12:57.210 --> 00:12:59.289 the city. So if it's going to become part of 00:12:59.289 --> 00:13:01.809 the city, it only makes sense that... both the 00:13:01.809 --> 00:13:04.250 city and its surrounding UGA would have similar 00:13:04.250 --> 00:13:08.149 planning or zoning requirements. Right. So this 00:13:08.149 --> 00:13:10.389 process that you're talking about of trying to 00:13:10.389 --> 00:13:14.789 bring these bills together or not to pass two 00:13:14.789 --> 00:13:17.889 bills. from different chambers that might conflict 00:13:17.889 --> 00:13:20.549 with one another is super normal, right? I mean, 00:13:20.570 --> 00:13:24.149 a bill starts in the House. It's an idea from 00:13:24.149 --> 00:13:26.549 a legislator or a constituent or a staff member, 00:13:26.649 --> 00:13:29.149 and it becomes a legislator's bill. It's their 00:13:29.149 --> 00:13:31.350 idea. It goes through this entire process through 00:13:31.350 --> 00:13:34.289 committees, right, and then through fiscal committees 00:13:34.289 --> 00:13:36.230 and then to the floor, and it gets a chance to 00:13:36.230 --> 00:13:38.409 be amended, and people kind of put their own 00:13:38.409 --> 00:13:40.009 little stamp on it and their own ideas, and it 00:13:40.009 --> 00:13:41.590 goes to the other chamber and does the same thing. 00:13:41.809 --> 00:13:43.470 And the same thing can happen on the opposite 00:13:43.470 --> 00:13:45.289 side, and at the end of the day, you may up with 00:13:45.289 --> 00:13:49.269 two bills that deal with the same issue but in 00:13:49.269 --> 00:13:52.470 different ways. And so the idea that you've got 00:13:52.470 --> 00:13:54.750 to come together is really, really common every 00:13:54.750 --> 00:13:57.230 single year. And so you've mentioned that you've 00:13:57.230 --> 00:14:01.169 got one bill, 1183, that has kind of the parking 00:14:01.169 --> 00:14:03.629 restrictions in it that we were just talking 00:14:03.629 --> 00:14:07.019 about. I assume there's another one on the Senate 00:14:07.019 --> 00:14:10.500 side then? So 5184 is the Senate one that I mentioned. 00:14:11.460 --> 00:14:15.000 So some of the things that I identified are coming 00:14:15.000 --> 00:14:17.940 out of 1183. Some are coming out of 5184. So 00:14:17.940 --> 00:14:20.539 that's the process that we're in right now is 00:14:20.539 --> 00:14:24.200 figuring out what do they want these final regulations 00:14:24.200 --> 00:14:28.059 to look like? Will one of those bill sponsors 00:14:28.059 --> 00:14:31.070 choose to adopt the language of the other? Will 00:14:31.070 --> 00:14:33.450 they come up with some third way? Is there one 00:14:33.450 --> 00:14:36.990 that we prefer? The language in 1183, the bill 00:14:36.990 --> 00:14:39.470 has a narrower scope, so it doesn't apply to 00:14:39.470 --> 00:14:41.889 as many places and as many property and development 00:14:41.889 --> 00:14:45.090 types. So on the whole, that's probably simpler. 00:14:46.870 --> 00:14:49.769 5184 is more expansive, and so we'll limit our 00:14:49.769 --> 00:14:52.629 ability to do things in more places. Okay, interesting. 00:14:52.809 --> 00:14:55.919 So we've talked about... So 1183, we talked about 00:14:55.919 --> 00:14:59.279 5184. Now I know there's another bill out there 00:14:59.279 --> 00:15:02.779 that sounds a lot like 5184 as far as the number, 00:15:02.860 --> 00:15:07.500 but it's not, right? It's 5148? 5148 is the Housing 00:15:07.500 --> 00:15:10.259 Accountability Act. Okay. Now this is a bill 00:15:10.259 --> 00:15:13.559 that we're not as in favor of. Is that right? 00:15:13.840 --> 00:15:16.000 Correct. We had had early conversations with 00:15:16.000 --> 00:15:20.080 the sponsor. The bill essentially requires local 00:15:20.080 --> 00:15:22.879 jurisdictions to submit their housing element 00:15:22.879 --> 00:15:27.269 to commerce for review and comment and a essentially 00:15:27.269 --> 00:15:31.970 assessment of compliance with current current 00:15:32.879 --> 00:15:36.059 housing related laws early in session we had 00:15:36.059 --> 00:15:40.379 negotiated a voluntary pathway in exchange for 00:15:40.379 --> 00:15:43.759 submitting your housing element voluntarily you 00:15:43.759 --> 00:15:46.580 would get some appeal protection from the state 00:15:46.580 --> 00:15:49.340 which um that was a strategy that we put into 00:15:49.340 --> 00:15:51.899 1181 a couple of years ago when the climate change 00:15:51.899 --> 00:15:55.360 element was right past right the idea is you 00:15:55.360 --> 00:15:59.450 don't have to but if you want to you can submit 00:15:59.450 --> 00:16:01.710 it they'll take a look at it they'll give you 00:16:01.710 --> 00:16:04.029 kind of this seal of approval i don't remember 00:16:04.029 --> 00:16:06.889 what we called it and if they do then they're 00:16:06.889 --> 00:16:09.450 actually responsible for defending it in the 00:16:09.450 --> 00:16:11.710 instance of an appeal which is a good thing for 00:16:11.710 --> 00:16:13.370 counties it creates some liability protection 00:16:13.370 --> 00:16:15.809 some cost protection etc but if you didn't want 00:16:15.809 --> 00:16:17.789 to have if you didn't want to do it you didn't 00:16:17.789 --> 00:16:19.870 have to do it so is that still the case with 00:16:19.870 --> 00:16:23.450 this bill it's not so this bill um There was 00:16:23.450 --> 00:16:27.389 a voluntary, initially it started out as mandatory. 00:16:27.809 --> 00:16:30.269 Then it was amended to include a voluntary pathway. 00:16:30.730 --> 00:16:35.769 Then it was re -amended to add a mandatory requirement 00:16:35.769 --> 00:16:38.350 behind that voluntary pathway. Well, that just 00:16:38.350 --> 00:16:41.250 means mandatory. Correct. Okay. But you can do 00:16:41.250 --> 00:16:47.690 it sooner if you want. Well, that's a strange 00:16:47.690 --> 00:16:51.940 approach. It is a strange approach. understanding 00:16:51.940 --> 00:16:55.580 that what the bill proponents are trying to do 00:16:55.580 --> 00:16:58.980 is to make sure that the good work that they're 00:16:58.980 --> 00:17:01.580 doing legislatively to try and create more housing 00:17:01.580 --> 00:17:06.279 is put into effect immediately or as quickly 00:17:06.279 --> 00:17:10.019 as possible. The key issue there... This is a 00:17:10.019 --> 00:17:11.859 20 -year planning document. I mean, that just 00:17:11.859 --> 00:17:14.480 isn't... The key issue there is that we are pushing 00:17:14.480 --> 00:17:17.880 on a long -term planning process in the hopes 00:17:17.880 --> 00:17:20.799 of getting short -term... results or immediate 00:17:20.799 --> 00:17:23.299 results. Those two things are always going to 00:17:23.299 --> 00:17:26.119 be in conflict. I mean, you never put money into 00:17:26.119 --> 00:17:27.900 an investment account thinking you're going to 00:17:27.900 --> 00:17:29.660 get immediate results. You've got to keep it 00:17:29.660 --> 00:17:32.000 there for a few years. The same thing is true 00:17:32.000 --> 00:17:34.000 when you're putting together these types of long 00:17:34.000 --> 00:17:35.559 -range plans. I mean, these are 20 -year planning 00:17:35.559 --> 00:17:38.019 documents. So the idea that you're just going 00:17:38.019 --> 00:17:40.640 to slap something on paper and suddenly things 00:17:40.640 --> 00:17:42.539 are going to be different overnight is just not 00:17:42.539 --> 00:17:44.579 realistic. And what we're hearing from members 00:17:44.579 --> 00:17:47.700 is that they are implementing these new rules 00:17:47.700 --> 00:17:49.400 and things that have come out. over the last 00:17:49.400 --> 00:17:52.299 few years. And that again, it's just, it's a 00:17:52.299 --> 00:17:55.019 long -term process. Whether you're talking about 00:17:55.019 --> 00:17:57.819 your comprehensive plan update or you're just 00:17:57.819 --> 00:18:01.579 talking about ordinances or regulations or zoning 00:18:01.579 --> 00:18:04.500 changes, none of that stuff is designed to happen. 00:18:04.940 --> 00:18:08.819 quickly. It's designed to be deliberative and 00:18:08.819 --> 00:18:14.960 precise, right? So I think that is where there's 00:18:14.960 --> 00:18:17.279 a little bit of a disconnect. They don't have 00:18:17.279 --> 00:18:19.519 a lot of levers that they can pull. So I think 00:18:19.519 --> 00:18:23.160 they're pulling the ones that they can, but that 00:18:23.160 --> 00:18:25.779 is a point that we continue to raise is that 00:18:25.779 --> 00:18:30.000 it will always be a problem. And I think the 00:18:30.000 --> 00:18:32.319 biggest concern is you pass a bunch of housing 00:18:32.319 --> 00:18:36.250 laws and then you force their implementation 00:18:36.250 --> 00:18:39.450 immediately i mean next year it's going to be 00:18:39.450 --> 00:18:42.289 something else right and so at that point it's 00:18:42.289 --> 00:18:44.630 not a 20 -year planning document no right it's 00:18:44.630 --> 00:18:46.690 just a collection of all the things that happen 00:18:46.690 --> 00:18:48.769 from year to year well and you know one of the 00:18:48.769 --> 00:18:51.430 other foundational principles of the gma is it's 00:18:51.430 --> 00:18:54.220 supposed to be this ground up kind of grassroots 00:18:54.220 --> 00:18:57.039 sort of document, right? You have to consider 00:18:57.039 --> 00:18:58.579 this, you have to consider that, you have to 00:18:58.579 --> 00:19:01.119 include things that will allow this or things 00:19:01.119 --> 00:19:02.619 that will allow that, but the way you actually 00:19:02.619 --> 00:19:05.359 do them is supposed to be community -driven. 00:19:05.460 --> 00:19:07.779 These are community -based decisions. The idea 00:19:07.779 --> 00:19:10.420 that we would do all that work and then have 00:19:10.420 --> 00:19:13.779 to send it to a state agency to get approved. 00:19:14.799 --> 00:19:18.680 almost, you know, undermines the idea that it's 00:19:18.680 --> 00:19:20.880 really community -based, right? And that it's 00:19:20.880 --> 00:19:24.599 really individualized for that individual place 00:19:24.599 --> 00:19:28.400 or that specific place. Because, you know, the 00:19:28.400 --> 00:19:30.180 state agency is going to look at it and just... 00:19:30.410 --> 00:19:32.410 Say, did you do this? Did you do that? Did you 00:19:32.410 --> 00:19:36.170 do this? Did you do that? There's a lot of subjectivity 00:19:36.170 --> 00:19:39.730 that goes into these plans. How will an agency 00:19:39.730 --> 00:19:42.309 be able to evaluate that subjectivity with an 00:19:42.309 --> 00:19:46.569 eye towards compliance? That's a little troubling 00:19:46.569 --> 00:19:50.269 to me. And I think the reality, too, is that 00:19:50.269 --> 00:19:54.529 we don't have enough planners as it is. It is 00:19:54.529 --> 00:19:57.230 unlikely that commerce will be able to develop 00:19:57.230 --> 00:20:00.690 a workforce of. folks with planning expertise 00:20:00.690 --> 00:20:05.950 and or land use attorneys who have the knowledge 00:20:05.950 --> 00:20:08.589 and background to really make those determinations 00:20:08.589 --> 00:20:12.630 in a useful and productive way. So I think that'll, 00:20:12.630 --> 00:20:15.410 that'll be a challenge just the mechanics of 00:20:15.410 --> 00:20:17.509 it. Yeah. That sounds like a capacity issue for. 00:20:18.319 --> 00:20:20.000 the Department of Commerce to actually meet the 00:20:20.000 --> 00:20:22.039 requirements of this bill. Are you saying that 00:20:22.039 --> 00:20:24.359 there are concerns that the agency won't be able 00:20:24.359 --> 00:20:26.720 to, you know, actually accept these and get them 00:20:26.720 --> 00:20:28.720 out the door in a timely fashion? I think that's 00:20:28.720 --> 00:20:30.880 always a concern, right? When you're creating, 00:20:30.940 --> 00:20:35.880 when you are creating a new workflow that hasn't 00:20:35.880 --> 00:20:39.390 existed in the past. especially in an agency 00:20:39.390 --> 00:20:42.170 that's already overtaxed, but in a year where 00:20:42.170 --> 00:20:45.369 the budget is severely constrained. Yeah, so 00:20:45.369 --> 00:20:48.170 limited ability to make new investments if you 00:20:48.170 --> 00:20:50.390 need them, sure. So we have seen the bill be 00:20:50.390 --> 00:20:54.529 scaled back a little bit because of that. In 00:20:54.529 --> 00:20:57.549 an initial version, the projection was that they 00:20:57.549 --> 00:20:59.559 would be dealing with... I can't remember the 00:20:59.559 --> 00:21:02.920 number exactly, but a whole lot of whether it's 00:21:02.920 --> 00:21:06.220 housing elements or also this includes associated 00:21:06.220 --> 00:21:09.240 ordinances, right? All the development regulations. 00:21:09.240 --> 00:21:11.339 All the development regulations, all of it. So 00:21:11.339 --> 00:21:14.480 that was a huge volume of work. Then we saw it 00:21:14.480 --> 00:21:16.480 kind of scaled down to, okay, we're going to 00:21:16.480 --> 00:21:18.319 estimate that the Department of Commerce can 00:21:18.319 --> 00:21:23.240 process 90 of these packages of information per 00:21:23.240 --> 00:21:26.809 year. In the most recent version, it's been scaled 00:21:26.809 --> 00:21:29.890 down even more to 60 per year. So you've got 00:21:29.890 --> 00:21:34.210 281 cities, you have 39 counties. So that's 320 00:21:34.210 --> 00:21:38.509 different entities, six years. That's more than 00:21:38.509 --> 00:21:40.849 five or 60 a year. That's more than five years 00:21:40.849 --> 00:21:43.450 to get through all those. So someone's housing 00:21:43.450 --> 00:21:45.970 element that they have implemented as part of 00:21:45.970 --> 00:21:47.630 their comprehensive plan update, potentially 00:21:47.630 --> 00:21:49.529 they could be waiting five years before they 00:21:49.529 --> 00:21:51.190 could actually get those new regulations on the 00:21:51.190 --> 00:21:53.210 ground. That doesn't sound like urgency to me. 00:21:53.519 --> 00:21:56.660 That actually sounds like more bureaucracy and 00:21:56.660 --> 00:22:00.559 more regulations that will slow down housing 00:22:00.559 --> 00:22:03.500 development and changes in housing development 00:22:03.500 --> 00:22:06.559 in these communities. Is that true? Perhaps. 00:22:06.740 --> 00:22:09.740 I mean, that seems very ironic. The language 00:22:09.740 --> 00:22:12.799 in the bill is that. these would have to be reviewed 00:22:12.799 --> 00:22:14.940 within three years of implementation. So you 00:22:14.940 --> 00:22:18.920 don't necessarily have to wait for the commerce 00:22:18.920 --> 00:22:22.160 review necessarily. So you can actually implement 00:22:22.160 --> 00:22:24.619 sooner? Correct. Okay. Well, that actually makes 00:22:24.619 --> 00:22:27.660 it a little better than a little faster. Although, 00:22:27.880 --> 00:22:30.079 you know, one of the... To be clear, it's still 00:22:30.079 --> 00:22:34.240 not good. Yeah. No, I agree. And one of the other 00:22:34.240 --> 00:22:37.240 foundational principles of the GMA is that once 00:22:37.240 --> 00:22:39.759 you take action and you approve at the local 00:22:39.759 --> 00:22:43.430 level, these locally developed plans, they're 00:22:43.430 --> 00:22:46.869 considered compliant and you can use them and 00:22:46.869 --> 00:22:49.970 someone has to actually appeal you, but they 00:22:49.970 --> 00:22:53.910 only have, I think, 30 or 60 days. I think it's... 00:22:54.200 --> 00:22:57.059 I think it might be 60 days, to file that appeal. 00:22:57.160 --> 00:23:00.000 And after that 60 days runs, then there's no 00:23:00.000 --> 00:23:01.859 further chance until you have certainty moving 00:23:01.859 --> 00:23:06.339 forward. Here, you could adopt a new housing 00:23:06.339 --> 00:23:09.000 plan as part of your comprehensive plan and new 00:23:09.000 --> 00:23:11.660 development regulations that allow all kinds 00:23:11.660 --> 00:23:14.500 of new things for housing development in your 00:23:14.500 --> 00:23:16.160 community. You could implement that. Someone 00:23:16.160 --> 00:23:18.759 doesn't appeal you. The 60 -day clock goes by. 00:23:19.769 --> 00:23:22.269 You're a year or two into it. Now you have to 00:23:22.269 --> 00:23:24.109 submit this thing to commerce and they could 00:23:24.109 --> 00:23:27.150 find you out of compliance for whatever reason. 00:23:27.210 --> 00:23:29.230 And now you're starting over after only a very 00:23:29.230 --> 00:23:31.210 short period of time. And you can't revert to 00:23:31.210 --> 00:23:33.970 your previous one. Right. Because that other 00:23:33.970 --> 00:23:37.369 bill passed 1135. So what's strange about that 00:23:37.369 --> 00:23:40.789 or what's concerning about that is no longer 00:23:40.789 --> 00:23:43.490 do you have that predictability, that certainty, 00:23:43.589 --> 00:23:48.279 right, that we all know. investment needs if 00:23:48.279 --> 00:23:51.279 they're going to take the risk and put dollars 00:23:51.279 --> 00:23:54.920 on the ground to build housing in communities 00:23:54.920 --> 00:23:56.799 where they think they can make a few dollars. 00:23:57.319 --> 00:23:59.480 And if they don't believe that certainty exists, 00:23:59.599 --> 00:24:01.380 that predictability exists, then they're going 00:24:01.380 --> 00:24:03.619 to hold on to that money. And they're going to 00:24:03.619 --> 00:24:07.170 wait until after those. review periods, et cetera, 00:24:07.309 --> 00:24:09.710 and who could blame them for doing so. So at 00:24:09.710 --> 00:24:12.509 the end of the day, it may still end up creating 00:24:12.509 --> 00:24:15.289 further delays in housing development, which 00:24:15.289 --> 00:24:18.130 will just further exacerbate the housing crisis 00:24:18.130 --> 00:24:20.849 that we're seeing now. It is very strange to 00:24:20.849 --> 00:24:24.190 me that the solution to overregulation, which 00:24:24.190 --> 00:24:26.210 is really in many ways the problem that we're 00:24:26.210 --> 00:24:28.980 facing right now around housing. A problem of 00:24:28.980 --> 00:24:30.980 overregulation that was created by the legislature 00:24:30.980 --> 00:24:34.079 is being solved by the legislature with more 00:24:34.079 --> 00:24:37.660 regulation. I don't know that there is widespread 00:24:37.660 --> 00:24:41.039 agreement that overregulation is the problem 00:24:41.039 --> 00:24:44.559 with the housing market. Well, we can agree to 00:24:44.559 --> 00:24:47.819 disagree. I'm not voicing a personal opinion, 00:24:47.859 --> 00:24:51.980 but I think should you talk to many of our legislators, 00:24:52.400 --> 00:24:57.119 it's not so much overregulation as perhaps or 00:24:57.119 --> 00:25:02.559 ineffective regulation, but... What is it? We've 00:25:02.559 --> 00:25:05.039 talked about this before. Only a regulator would 00:25:05.039 --> 00:25:07.920 say. Right. When you've got a hammer, everything 00:25:07.920 --> 00:25:09.099 looks like a nail or something. It's just a wrong 00:25:09.099 --> 00:25:10.940 or ineffective regulation. Right. We just need 00:25:10.940 --> 00:25:13.339 better. Yeah, better. Yeah. I'm not sure that's 00:25:13.339 --> 00:25:15.700 true, especially where housing is concerned. 00:25:15.880 --> 00:25:19.160 I mean, if you want people to make investments 00:25:19.160 --> 00:25:21.920 and you want to see quicker action, you have 00:25:21.920 --> 00:25:24.200 to cut the red tape. You know, you've got to 00:25:24.200 --> 00:25:28.160 relax the regulations. And we don't want to do 00:25:28.160 --> 00:25:30.309 that from necessarily a life situation. safety 00:25:30.309 --> 00:25:32.630 perspective, right, or an environmental perspective. 00:25:32.829 --> 00:25:35.369 But there are other things that we could do that 00:25:35.369 --> 00:25:39.170 could spur things along that would reduce regulations. 00:25:39.430 --> 00:25:41.390 I think a lot of people are very concerned about 00:25:41.390 --> 00:25:45.589 the costs associated with housing and energy 00:25:45.589 --> 00:25:47.450 efficiency requirements and things like that 00:25:47.450 --> 00:25:49.549 that could go a long ways. But that's a whole 00:25:49.549 --> 00:25:52.329 other podcast. We don't need to quite get into 00:25:52.329 --> 00:25:54.029 that. But I will share because I've tried to 00:25:54.029 --> 00:25:56.049 bring up this saying a couple times on podcasts 00:25:56.049 --> 00:25:59.630 and have failed. The law of the instrument. Abraham 00:25:59.630 --> 00:26:03.069 Maslow wrote in 1966, it is tempting if the only 00:26:03.069 --> 00:26:05.109 tool you have is a hammer to treat everything 00:26:05.109 --> 00:26:07.250 as if it were a nail. Right. If the only tool 00:26:07.250 --> 00:26:09.210 you have is a hammer, every problem looks like 00:26:09.210 --> 00:26:11.250 a nail. So if the only tool you have is regulation. 00:26:11.509 --> 00:26:13.829 Every problem looks like you need more regulation. 00:26:14.410 --> 00:26:17.829 Maybe that's a strong lesson and probably something 00:26:17.829 --> 00:26:21.069 to end the podcast with accordingly. Kelsey, 00:26:21.130 --> 00:26:24.299 thanks for coming by today. Happy. Cut off again. 00:26:24.480 --> 00:26:26.220 I think I've said that to you a few times. I 00:26:26.220 --> 00:26:27.900 know I've said it a lot in this podcast, but 00:26:27.900 --> 00:26:30.240 it's always a happy day when cutoff comes along. 00:26:30.799 --> 00:26:34.440 As you mentioned, only 18 days to go. Less than. 00:26:34.519 --> 00:26:36.920 Less than now. Yeah, because it is after 5 o 00:26:36.920 --> 00:26:40.099 'clock here on Wednesday. In fact, it's 6 o 'clock 00:26:40.099 --> 00:26:42.640 for those who might be wanting to know what the 00:26:42.640 --> 00:26:45.500 timestamp is. A lot to do, though. A lot to do 00:26:45.500 --> 00:26:47.779 in 18 days when you think about the budgets and 00:26:47.779 --> 00:26:49.940 when you think about bringing these policy bills 00:26:49.940 --> 00:26:52.539 together in a way that actually makes sense and 00:26:52.539 --> 00:26:55.640 that's productive. There's a lot of work cut 00:26:55.640 --> 00:26:58.079 out for them. There's not going to be much rest 00:26:58.079 --> 00:26:59.539 up there at the legislature if they're going 00:26:59.539 --> 00:27:03.150 to get this done. Understanding is that the house 00:27:03.150 --> 00:27:07.269 was directed to bring their jammies on Monday. 00:27:07.410 --> 00:27:09.130 They're going to have a late night. They'll be 00:27:09.130 --> 00:27:13.710 on the floor on Saturday. Have you talked about 00:27:13.710 --> 00:27:16.190 special sessions? We're not talking about special 00:27:16.190 --> 00:27:19.490 sessions on these podcasts ever. We do not talk 00:27:19.490 --> 00:27:24.390 about special sessions. All right. You're done. 00:27:24.630 --> 00:27:27.710 Your podcast privileges are over, Kelsey. Well, 00:27:27.730 --> 00:27:32.059 nuts. What a shame. Take care until next time. 00:27:32.099 --> 00:27:36.359 Thank you. Thanks for tuning in to County Connection. 00:27:36.420 --> 00:27:38.579 Stay in the loop by subscribing to us through 00:27:38.579 --> 00:27:40.880 your preferred podcasting app and following us 00:27:40.880 --> 00:27:43.880 on LinkedIn, Facebook, and Instagram. And don't 00:27:43.880 --> 00:27:45.839 forget to join The Hub, your go -to source for 00:27:45.839 --> 00:27:47.599 the latest news and updates from the Washington 00:27:47.599 --> 00:27:50.259 State Association of Counties. Until next time, 00:27:50.299 --> 00:27:52.000 stay connected and stay informed.