1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:02,360 Happy cutoff. 2 00:00:02,360 --> 00:00:03,500 To all who celebrate. 3 00:00:03,500 --> 00:00:05,560 To all who celebrate, yes. 4 00:00:05,560 --> 00:00:09,080 And to those who don't, well, you're missing out. 5 00:00:09,080 --> 00:00:11,000 You're probably happier right now anyway. 6 00:00:11,000 --> 00:00:11,980 Yeah, that's true. 7 00:00:11,980 --> 00:00:14,020 I used to look forward to Christmas. 8 00:00:14,020 --> 00:00:16,000 Now I think I look forward to cutoff more. 9 00:00:16,000 --> 00:00:17,320 Ha ha ha ha. 10 00:00:19,440 --> 00:00:20,880 Welcome to County Connection, 11 00:00:20,880 --> 00:00:22,040 the official podcast of the 12 00:00:22,040 --> 00:00:24,200 Washington State Association of Counties, 13 00:00:24,200 --> 00:00:26,120 where we dive into the legislative issues 14 00:00:26,120 --> 00:00:28,080 shaping the future of our communities, 15 00:00:28,080 --> 00:00:31,520 from budgets to public safety, infrastructure to elections, 16 00:00:31,520 --> 00:00:34,040 we'll break down what's happening in Olympia 17 00:00:34,040 --> 00:00:37,160 and how it impacts counties from across the Evergreen State. 18 00:00:37,160 --> 00:00:39,760 Stay informed, stay engaged, and join us 19 00:00:39,760 --> 00:00:43,000 as we amplify the voice of Washington's 39 counties. 20 00:00:44,080 --> 00:00:46,220 Welcome back everybody to episode four 21 00:00:46,220 --> 00:00:48,440 of the County Connection podcast. 22 00:00:48,440 --> 00:00:49,840 I am back in the studio, 23 00:00:49,840 --> 00:00:52,780 but this time we've tossed Brad to the side 24 00:00:52,780 --> 00:00:56,320 and Kelsey Hulse is hanging out with me for a few minutes. 25 00:00:56,320 --> 00:00:57,520 Kelsey, how are things going? 26 00:00:57,520 --> 00:00:58,520 Happy cutoff day. 27 00:00:58,520 --> 00:01:01,480 Thank you, happy cutoff day to you too. 28 00:01:01,480 --> 00:01:04,280 I have lost the ability to speak at this point. 29 00:01:04,280 --> 00:01:07,340 I think that probably is an ailment 30 00:01:07,340 --> 00:01:09,440 that is plaguing many of us. 31 00:01:09,440 --> 00:01:12,140 I'm just trying to get through a couple more podcasts 32 00:01:12,140 --> 00:01:14,160 before I go home, so. 33 00:01:14,160 --> 00:01:16,000 You know, Brad and I finished the podcast 34 00:01:16,000 --> 00:01:19,400 just a second ago, for those who maybe heard it, 35 00:01:19,400 --> 00:01:22,760 where he admitted he was a closet Trekkie, 36 00:01:22,760 --> 00:01:25,200 like from a very young age. 37 00:01:25,200 --> 00:01:27,160 You do know what a Trekkie is, right? 38 00:01:27,160 --> 00:01:28,000 Of course I know what a Trekkie is. 39 00:01:28,000 --> 00:01:30,380 Of course, you know, I'm just checking. 40 00:01:30,380 --> 00:01:32,260 Is that 100% surprising? 41 00:01:34,120 --> 00:01:36,040 I was a little surprised, I had no idea. 42 00:01:36,040 --> 00:01:38,560 He had, I mean, he had never done, you know, 43 00:01:38,560 --> 00:01:42,520 he'd never given me like the Vulcan, you know, handshake 44 00:01:42,520 --> 00:01:43,360 or whatever that is. 45 00:01:43,360 --> 00:01:46,000 He'd never like said anything about 46 00:01:46,000 --> 00:01:48,240 live long and prosper before. 47 00:01:48,240 --> 00:01:49,800 He'd never talked about going 48 00:01:49,800 --> 00:01:52,120 where no man has ever gone before. 49 00:01:52,120 --> 00:01:54,360 None of the telltale signs. 50 00:01:54,360 --> 00:01:58,360 He had never talked about being at Comic-Con 51 00:01:58,360 --> 00:02:00,560 or anything like that, so I was a little surprised. 52 00:02:00,560 --> 00:02:04,160 I can't get past the fact that you think Vulcans shake hands. 53 00:02:04,160 --> 00:02:05,900 Have you ever watched Star Trek? 54 00:02:08,840 --> 00:02:10,800 Oh my goodness, wow. 55 00:02:10,800 --> 00:02:13,960 So you're calling my Trekkie knowledge to the carpet here. 56 00:02:13,960 --> 00:02:15,880 So it sounds to me like maybe you are 57 00:02:15,880 --> 00:02:17,200 a little bit of a Trekkie. 58 00:02:17,200 --> 00:02:19,720 I'm not, but I have lived with a Trekkie 59 00:02:19,720 --> 00:02:21,720 for most of my life. 60 00:02:21,720 --> 00:02:24,080 My father was one, my partner is one. 61 00:02:24,080 --> 00:02:25,760 My dad was a big Trekkie too. 62 00:02:25,760 --> 00:02:30,760 My dad was like the OG Trekkie, like Captain Kirk, Spock. 63 00:02:32,760 --> 00:02:34,800 I can't remember what the doctor's name was, 64 00:02:34,800 --> 00:02:38,160 but I remember we used to watch him in black and white 65 00:02:38,160 --> 00:02:41,120 on our little like 19 inch square TV. 66 00:02:41,120 --> 00:02:44,480 My partner, who's also named Paul, 67 00:02:44,480 --> 00:02:47,520 just rewatched the whole OG Star Trek. 68 00:02:47,520 --> 00:02:49,600 I had no idea his name was, I like him 69 00:02:49,600 --> 00:02:50,760 and I've never even met him. 70 00:02:50,760 --> 00:02:52,000 What a guy. 71 00:02:52,000 --> 00:02:54,120 I'm sure he's a great guy. 72 00:02:54,120 --> 00:02:55,400 They all are, aren't they? 73 00:02:55,400 --> 00:02:57,840 I've heard that everybody with that name 74 00:02:57,840 --> 00:02:59,200 is pretty amazing. 75 00:02:59,200 --> 00:03:00,040 Obviously. 76 00:03:00,040 --> 00:03:01,120 Obviously. 77 00:03:01,120 --> 00:03:03,400 Well, that's not what we're here to talk about, 78 00:03:03,400 --> 00:03:06,000 but we are here to talk about something 79 00:03:06,000 --> 00:03:08,200 kind of related to it, right? 80 00:03:08,200 --> 00:03:09,720 Sort of, no? 81 00:03:09,720 --> 00:03:12,160 Related to Star Trek or Paul's or? 82 00:03:12,160 --> 00:03:13,000 No, Star Trek. 83 00:03:13,000 --> 00:03:13,920 Oh, sure. 84 00:03:13,920 --> 00:03:14,760 Yeah. 85 00:03:14,760 --> 00:03:15,580 No. 86 00:03:15,580 --> 00:03:16,520 No, we're not? 87 00:03:16,520 --> 00:03:18,240 What are we gonna talk about today? 88 00:03:18,240 --> 00:03:20,120 Isn't space parking infinite? 89 00:03:20,120 --> 00:03:20,960 It is. 90 00:03:20,960 --> 00:03:21,800 Yeah. 91 00:03:21,800 --> 00:03:23,600 I don't think there's many regulations 92 00:03:23,600 --> 00:03:25,600 about parking in space, 93 00:03:25,600 --> 00:03:28,160 but we are gonna talk about parking regulations 94 00:03:28,160 --> 00:03:29,160 down here on earth. 95 00:03:29,160 --> 00:03:30,280 Yes, we are. 96 00:03:30,280 --> 00:03:31,320 All right. 97 00:03:31,320 --> 00:03:32,640 What's going on with parking? 98 00:03:32,640 --> 00:03:34,520 So we've been following, 99 00:03:34,520 --> 00:03:37,060 well, there's a number of things happening around parking, 100 00:03:37,060 --> 00:03:39,200 but in particular, we've been paying attention 101 00:03:39,200 --> 00:03:44,200 to a pair of bills, Senate Bill 5184 and House Bill 1299. 102 00:03:46,160 --> 00:03:48,680 It appears that the House Bill is not moving, 103 00:03:48,680 --> 00:03:50,440 the Senate Bill is, 104 00:03:50,440 --> 00:03:55,120 but both restricted the ability for counties 105 00:03:55,120 --> 00:03:58,560 to have required parking minimums for development. 106 00:03:58,560 --> 00:04:03,440 So regardless of what your code or regulations may say now, 107 00:04:03,440 --> 00:04:05,800 this would mean that you couldn't require 108 00:04:05,800 --> 00:04:09,440 more than a half a parking space per residential unit, 109 00:04:09,440 --> 00:04:12,740 one parking space per thousand square feet of commercial, 110 00:04:12,740 --> 00:04:15,940 and could not require any minimum parking 111 00:04:15,940 --> 00:04:17,680 for a change of use, 112 00:04:17,680 --> 00:04:20,760 change of use development with a variety of categories 113 00:04:20,760 --> 00:04:21,580 involved. 114 00:04:21,580 --> 00:04:25,280 So this has been a thing recently in the legislature, 115 00:04:25,280 --> 00:04:29,640 and I wanna unpack a little bit of it with you. 116 00:04:29,640 --> 00:04:31,020 Brian and I talked about this 117 00:04:31,020 --> 00:04:32,760 when we were talking about housing. 118 00:04:33,760 --> 00:04:36,440 He and I cut a podcast, I think last week, 119 00:04:36,440 --> 00:04:38,080 and we went into this a little bit 120 00:04:38,080 --> 00:04:40,880 because it's come up with some of our housing bills as well 121 00:04:40,880 --> 00:04:42,680 around ADUs and middle housing 122 00:04:42,680 --> 00:04:45,440 and whether or not we should be addressing 123 00:04:45,440 --> 00:04:47,560 parking concerns there. 124 00:04:47,560 --> 00:04:50,160 I noticed an article in the Seattle Times today, 125 00:04:50,160 --> 00:04:51,280 as a matter of fact, 126 00:04:51,280 --> 00:04:53,820 that talked about this bill, 127 00:04:53,820 --> 00:04:55,420 I think it was the Senate one 128 00:04:55,420 --> 00:04:57,680 that came off the floor yesterday that you mentioned, 129 00:04:57,680 --> 00:04:59,840 Senate Bill 5184, 130 00:04:59,840 --> 00:05:02,200 and I know we're gonna get into some more details on that 131 00:05:02,200 --> 00:05:04,340 and some of the amendments around it, 132 00:05:04,340 --> 00:05:06,440 but there was an article in the Seattle Times 133 00:05:06,440 --> 00:05:07,920 and the headline was, 134 00:05:07,920 --> 00:05:10,640 something about the legislature makes another step 135 00:05:10,640 --> 00:05:12,120 towards improving housing 136 00:05:12,120 --> 00:05:14,520 by eliminating parking regulations. 137 00:05:14,520 --> 00:05:17,520 That is such an interesting headline to me. 138 00:05:17,520 --> 00:05:20,800 And the discussion around this is so interesting to me 139 00:05:20,800 --> 00:05:23,140 because there really does seem to be a belief 140 00:05:23,140 --> 00:05:26,960 in the legislature that if you don't require parking, 141 00:05:26,960 --> 00:05:31,360 we will have more housing in Washington State. 142 00:05:31,360 --> 00:05:32,200 Why? 143 00:05:32,200 --> 00:05:33,280 Why do they think that? 144 00:05:33,280 --> 00:05:35,600 Well, for a couple of reasons. 145 00:05:35,600 --> 00:05:38,980 One is because there have been a number of studies 146 00:05:38,980 --> 00:05:41,720 that have identified that as a limiting factor 147 00:05:41,720 --> 00:05:44,720 for housing availability based largely on the cost 148 00:05:44,720 --> 00:05:46,040 to deliver parking. 149 00:05:46,040 --> 00:05:49,480 So the working assumption is that if you have a building 150 00:05:49,480 --> 00:05:51,480 and you have to, if you wanna build a building 151 00:05:51,480 --> 00:05:53,700 and you have to include a parking garage 152 00:05:53,700 --> 00:05:55,660 or a parking lot or something, 153 00:05:55,660 --> 00:05:58,320 that's a lot of space that costs money. 154 00:05:58,320 --> 00:06:00,040 You have to acquire the land for it 155 00:06:00,040 --> 00:06:01,880 or you have to build the structure, 156 00:06:01,880 --> 00:06:05,560 whatever your chosen parking solution looks like, 157 00:06:05,560 --> 00:06:06,480 but that it costs money. 158 00:06:06,480 --> 00:06:10,880 And that by eliminating that piece of the project cost, 159 00:06:10,880 --> 00:06:13,120 you are lowering the overall cost of the project, 160 00:06:13,120 --> 00:06:16,120 therefore enabling more housing units to be built 161 00:06:16,120 --> 00:06:18,400 for the same dollars on that same site. 162 00:06:18,400 --> 00:06:20,080 But we're a car culture. 163 00:06:20,080 --> 00:06:23,120 Even statistics that look at renters, 164 00:06:23,120 --> 00:06:26,520 people who rent homes, rent their residences, 165 00:06:26,520 --> 00:06:29,760 whether they're renting a house or renting a duplex 166 00:06:29,760 --> 00:06:33,960 or renting an apartment show that more than 70%, 167 00:06:33,960 --> 00:06:38,260 even in really urban areas like the city of Seattle, 168 00:06:38,260 --> 00:06:39,940 own at least one vehicle. 169 00:06:39,940 --> 00:06:41,720 Where are they gonna put their cars 170 00:06:41,720 --> 00:06:45,640 if parking isn't part of the development itself? 171 00:06:45,640 --> 00:06:47,100 That's the challenge, right? 172 00:06:47,100 --> 00:06:50,120 Is that I think some of these conversations 173 00:06:50,120 --> 00:06:53,160 focus on the world that we would like to live in 174 00:06:53,160 --> 00:06:55,920 versus the world that we are currently in. 175 00:06:55,920 --> 00:06:58,880 I think one of the parts of the conversation 176 00:06:58,880 --> 00:07:03,880 that is often underplayed is that context matters, right? 177 00:07:04,240 --> 00:07:07,340 It's one thing in the middle of a big city 178 00:07:07,340 --> 00:07:09,280 that has a lot of transit availability 179 00:07:09,280 --> 00:07:11,060 and or you can walk most places 180 00:07:11,060 --> 00:07:15,040 and or you can grab a lime scooter or whatever to get around, 181 00:07:15,040 --> 00:07:18,680 then sure, you eliminate a lot of the parking there 182 00:07:18,680 --> 00:07:21,240 and it's not gonna have a severe impact 183 00:07:21,240 --> 00:07:23,440 on the way people live their daily lives, 184 00:07:23,440 --> 00:07:25,060 probably asterisk. 185 00:07:25,060 --> 00:07:27,500 But once you get outside those urban areas 186 00:07:27,500 --> 00:07:30,240 or those areas that are well served by transit 187 00:07:30,240 --> 00:07:32,400 or do have a lot of options for getting around, 188 00:07:32,400 --> 00:07:33,240 then to your point, most of the- 189 00:07:33,240 --> 00:07:36,240 Which by the way is the majority of Washington state, right? 190 00:07:36,240 --> 00:07:37,820 I mean, the majority of Washington state 191 00:07:37,820 --> 00:07:42,520 does not have transit, does not have, is not urban 192 00:07:42,520 --> 00:07:43,360 for the most part. 193 00:07:43,360 --> 00:07:44,440 The majority of Washington state 194 00:07:44,440 --> 00:07:47,000 would be considered rural by most standards. 195 00:07:47,000 --> 00:07:50,020 I mean, the majority of everywhere is not a city, right? 196 00:07:50,020 --> 00:07:51,520 In terms of land mass. 197 00:07:51,520 --> 00:07:53,960 So it's often lost in the conversation 198 00:07:53,960 --> 00:07:55,560 that like I said, context does matter. 199 00:07:55,560 --> 00:07:59,680 If you're talking about a rural area, 200 00:07:59,680 --> 00:08:02,440 then eliminating parking in that location 201 00:08:02,440 --> 00:08:04,880 is oftentimes gonna cause more problems 202 00:08:04,880 --> 00:08:07,440 than it is going to create solutions. 203 00:08:07,440 --> 00:08:08,840 So let's talk about that, why? 204 00:08:08,840 --> 00:08:13,240 What problems would be created in say a rural area 205 00:08:13,240 --> 00:08:14,880 if you're not allowed to regulate parking? 206 00:08:14,880 --> 00:08:17,160 Well, I think the folks that are advocating 207 00:08:17,160 --> 00:08:20,680 for eliminating parking minimums are correct 208 00:08:20,680 --> 00:08:23,240 in so far as the parking costs money. 209 00:08:23,240 --> 00:08:26,680 Costs money to acquire and develop a parking lot 210 00:08:26,680 --> 00:08:27,880 or a parking garage. Right, you gotta pave it, 211 00:08:27,880 --> 00:08:29,540 you gotta put in drainage. 212 00:08:29,540 --> 00:08:32,480 Oftentimes a city will require you to put in landscaping 213 00:08:32,480 --> 00:08:34,000 and things like that to beautify the space. 214 00:08:34,000 --> 00:08:35,880 Yeah, it costs money, it's part of the project. 215 00:08:35,880 --> 00:08:36,700 It costs money. 216 00:08:36,700 --> 00:08:39,880 So if you don't have to do that, right? 217 00:08:39,880 --> 00:08:41,900 If you can eliminate that as part of your project, 218 00:08:41,900 --> 00:08:43,860 there's always gonna be an incentive to do that, 219 00:08:43,860 --> 00:08:45,240 a financial incentive to do so. 220 00:08:45,240 --> 00:08:46,160 Yeah, because if you're a business, 221 00:08:46,160 --> 00:08:47,200 don't you wanna have parking? 222 00:08:47,200 --> 00:08:49,000 Probably, I would assume. 223 00:08:49,000 --> 00:08:52,120 Again, context matters, so it depends on where you are. 224 00:08:52,120 --> 00:08:54,760 There will always be a financial incentive. 225 00:08:54,760 --> 00:08:58,280 Leave something that isn't necessary out of a project. 226 00:08:58,280 --> 00:09:03,280 Assuming it doesn't negatively impact health, safety, 227 00:09:03,280 --> 00:09:04,160 that type of thing. 228 00:09:04,160 --> 00:09:07,720 But if there's something that you can just cleave off 229 00:09:07,720 --> 00:09:09,480 of your project, in many cases, 230 00:09:09,480 --> 00:09:12,280 you could make that more profitable, theoretically. 231 00:09:12,280 --> 00:09:14,880 But in the rural area, which is what we're talking about, 232 00:09:14,880 --> 00:09:16,760 that could cause some big problems. 233 00:09:16,760 --> 00:09:20,040 Yes, well, and what I was gonna say is that 234 00:09:20,040 --> 00:09:23,000 there's always an incentive not to do it. 235 00:09:23,000 --> 00:09:23,840 I shouldn't say incentive. 236 00:09:23,840 --> 00:09:25,880 There's always pressure not to do it. 237 00:09:25,880 --> 00:09:29,360 In a housing environment, in a housing market 238 00:09:29,360 --> 00:09:32,500 that is operating normally, people will make choices 239 00:09:32,500 --> 00:09:36,080 about where to live based on the amenities that they need, 240 00:09:36,080 --> 00:09:38,360 based on the distance that it is from their work 241 00:09:38,360 --> 00:09:39,200 or their home. Sure. 242 00:09:39,200 --> 00:09:40,760 Like that's how you pick where you live. 243 00:09:40,760 --> 00:09:42,200 But also what they can afford. 244 00:09:42,200 --> 00:09:43,200 You keep getting ahead of me. 245 00:09:43,200 --> 00:09:44,040 Oh, sorry. 246 00:09:44,040 --> 00:09:46,560 You just, next step, boop, boop, boop. 247 00:09:46,560 --> 00:09:47,520 He's just jumping ahead. 248 00:09:47,520 --> 00:09:49,440 It's a talent that I have. 249 00:09:49,440 --> 00:09:52,760 It's all, everyone I interviews loves it. 250 00:09:52,760 --> 00:09:54,280 Everyone I interview. Super fun. 251 00:09:54,280 --> 00:09:56,620 Oh my goodness, everyone I interview loves it. 252 00:09:56,620 --> 00:09:58,880 We're both just A game, A game. 253 00:09:58,880 --> 00:10:01,160 You can tell it's late on a Friday. 254 00:10:01,160 --> 00:10:03,760 Yeah, it very much is. 255 00:10:03,760 --> 00:10:06,680 Problem is that we have a housing market 256 00:10:06,680 --> 00:10:08,720 that is not behaving normally. 257 00:10:08,720 --> 00:10:09,560 Okay. Right? 258 00:10:09,560 --> 00:10:10,720 We know that. 259 00:10:10,720 --> 00:10:13,120 That's something that we spend a lot of time here 260 00:10:13,120 --> 00:10:15,280 talking about and trying to find ways to fix. 261 00:10:15,280 --> 00:10:18,360 We don't have enough supply to meet demand. 262 00:10:18,360 --> 00:10:19,200 Okay. 263 00:10:19,200 --> 00:10:21,880 A situation where demand exceeds supply. 264 00:10:21,880 --> 00:10:22,940 Which is what we have now. 265 00:10:22,940 --> 00:10:25,400 People are not making decisions based on amenities, 266 00:10:25,400 --> 00:10:28,800 based on distance, based on the things that they like 267 00:10:28,800 --> 00:10:30,100 in terms of where they're gonna live. 268 00:10:30,100 --> 00:10:33,400 They're gonna buy or rent what they can afford. 269 00:10:33,400 --> 00:10:35,040 And what maybe they can find. 270 00:10:35,040 --> 00:10:36,280 And whatever they can find. 271 00:10:36,280 --> 00:10:38,040 Right, because choices are limited. 272 00:10:38,040 --> 00:10:40,440 People are pushed into situations 273 00:10:40,440 --> 00:10:41,600 that they might not otherwise be 274 00:10:41,600 --> 00:10:43,480 because the market is already warped. 275 00:10:43,480 --> 00:10:46,040 Okay. That was the part I was getting a little ahead of you 276 00:10:46,040 --> 00:10:47,200 on, I apologize for that. 277 00:10:47,200 --> 00:10:49,660 So we have this interesting situation 278 00:10:49,660 --> 00:10:53,380 where we've got this philosophy maybe around parking 279 00:10:53,380 --> 00:10:54,600 and how it affects housing. 280 00:10:54,600 --> 00:10:57,800 We've got this housing market that's not acting normally. 281 00:10:57,800 --> 00:11:02,160 We've got a big difference between certain environments 282 00:11:02,160 --> 00:11:05,240 of a more urban nature versus a more rural nature, right? 283 00:11:05,240 --> 00:11:09,120 I mean, when we're talking about rural roads, they're narrow. 284 00:11:09,120 --> 00:11:10,320 They don't have shoulders. 285 00:11:10,320 --> 00:11:13,040 They don't have sidewalks in many cases. 286 00:11:13,040 --> 00:11:17,120 Saying that, no, you don't have to put a parking space 287 00:11:18,160 --> 00:11:19,280 next to your house. 288 00:11:19,280 --> 00:11:22,120 Leads people to believe that they could just park 289 00:11:22,120 --> 00:11:23,480 along the roadway. 290 00:11:23,480 --> 00:11:25,840 And that could potentially be a pretty bad situation 291 00:11:25,840 --> 00:11:26,680 in rural roads. 292 00:11:26,680 --> 00:11:28,800 One of the arguments that I've heard is, 293 00:11:28,800 --> 00:11:31,920 look, you don't have to necessarily regulate this. 294 00:11:31,920 --> 00:11:33,140 The market will respond. 295 00:11:33,140 --> 00:11:37,120 If people want parking, the builders will build parking. 296 00:11:37,120 --> 00:11:40,320 Now, if I'm a custom builder, right? 297 00:11:40,320 --> 00:11:42,980 Or I'm building a custom house for myself 298 00:11:42,980 --> 00:11:45,640 because I can afford to in a rural environment 299 00:11:45,640 --> 00:11:47,420 or even in an urban environment, 300 00:11:47,420 --> 00:11:48,260 I can tell you that, yeah, 301 00:11:48,260 --> 00:11:50,640 I'm gonna choose to put in parking for myself. 302 00:11:50,640 --> 00:11:54,200 I'll probably even build a garage if I can. 303 00:11:54,200 --> 00:11:57,800 But if I'm a builder who's putting in spec homes 304 00:11:57,800 --> 00:12:00,640 or is putting in multifamily housing 305 00:12:00,640 --> 00:12:04,080 and I'm trying to maximize my return on investment, 306 00:12:04,080 --> 00:12:07,920 it's pretty attractive to say, hmm, 307 00:12:07,920 --> 00:12:09,680 I can save a lot of money on this project 308 00:12:09,680 --> 00:12:11,680 and put in a lot more residential housing units 309 00:12:11,680 --> 00:12:13,480 that I can either rent or sell 310 00:12:13,480 --> 00:12:16,680 to get a pretty good return if I don't put in parking 311 00:12:16,680 --> 00:12:19,600 or I put in less parking that I need. 312 00:12:19,600 --> 00:12:21,040 Isn't that gonna be a problem? 313 00:12:21,040 --> 00:12:25,440 Most likely, and my understanding of Washington state law 314 00:12:25,440 --> 00:12:28,240 is that most places you are allowed to park 315 00:12:28,240 --> 00:12:31,520 unless it is explicitly prohibited for some reason, right? 316 00:12:31,520 --> 00:12:33,360 Unless it's signed, unless something. 317 00:12:33,360 --> 00:12:35,680 So to your previous point, 318 00:12:35,680 --> 00:12:38,680 the fact that most people have cars, drive cars, 319 00:12:38,680 --> 00:12:41,120 use them to get around still 320 00:12:41,120 --> 00:12:43,400 means they're gonna put them somewhere. 321 00:12:43,400 --> 00:12:45,240 And if there isn't a parking lot, 322 00:12:45,240 --> 00:12:49,600 and we should pause to mention that all of this 323 00:12:49,600 --> 00:12:51,840 is related to off-street parking, right? 324 00:12:51,840 --> 00:12:53,560 The requirement for off-street parking. 325 00:12:53,560 --> 00:12:55,880 So if you develop, whether it's a restaurant 326 00:12:55,880 --> 00:12:59,640 or a residential building or a mixed-use building 327 00:12:59,640 --> 00:13:03,360 or childcare facility or whatever it is, 328 00:13:03,360 --> 00:13:05,640 if you don't have off-street parking, 329 00:13:05,640 --> 00:13:07,160 people are gonna park wherever they can 330 00:13:07,160 --> 00:13:10,440 and that's most likely to be alongside the nearest road, 331 00:13:10,440 --> 00:13:12,920 right, because that's where people park. 332 00:13:12,920 --> 00:13:15,400 The trouble is, roads are designed and built 333 00:13:15,400 --> 00:13:17,680 for all kinds of different purposes and uses 334 00:13:17,680 --> 00:13:19,440 and if they weren't designed and built 335 00:13:19,440 --> 00:13:21,520 to accommodate shoulder parking, 336 00:13:21,520 --> 00:13:23,080 then they may be too narrow. 337 00:13:23,080 --> 00:13:25,280 You may not be able to see around a corner 338 00:13:25,280 --> 00:13:27,320 if a car is parked there. 339 00:13:27,320 --> 00:13:29,600 You're probably putting any bicyclists 340 00:13:29,600 --> 00:13:33,240 or pedestrians in danger if you don't have a sidewalk there 341 00:13:33,240 --> 00:13:34,360 or a bike lane, right? 342 00:13:34,360 --> 00:13:38,440 We're talking narrow roads, often narrow county roads 343 00:13:38,440 --> 00:13:40,160 that just don't have the infrastructure 344 00:13:40,160 --> 00:13:42,960 to support that type of use. 345 00:13:42,960 --> 00:13:46,240 Once you've made that decision and allowed that to happen, 346 00:13:46,240 --> 00:13:49,600 coming in afterward to add parking 347 00:13:49,600 --> 00:13:52,440 is almost an absurd proposition, right, 348 00:13:52,440 --> 00:13:53,800 after the development has happened. 349 00:13:53,800 --> 00:13:56,720 Oh, because you're talking major site improvements 350 00:13:56,720 --> 00:14:00,480 on a bunch of lots that people have already gotten 351 00:14:00,480 --> 00:14:05,480 using as their own and there are neighborhoods now 352 00:14:06,200 --> 00:14:08,880 that are within cities, older portions of neighborhoods 353 00:14:08,880 --> 00:14:12,560 where they didn't require wider streets, 354 00:14:12,560 --> 00:14:13,920 they didn't require proper drainage, 355 00:14:13,920 --> 00:14:15,400 they didn't require sidewalks. 356 00:14:15,400 --> 00:14:17,200 They're going back in and putting those in now 357 00:14:17,200 --> 00:14:19,520 and sometimes the neighbors complain, right? 358 00:14:19,520 --> 00:14:21,360 They actually don't want those amenities 359 00:14:21,360 --> 00:14:23,840 because they are afraid it's gonna increase traffic, 360 00:14:23,840 --> 00:14:27,200 it'll increase speeds, it'll increase parking 361 00:14:27,200 --> 00:14:30,280 of other people right in front of their homes and whatnot 362 00:14:30,280 --> 00:14:33,120 and change the character of their neighborhood. 363 00:14:33,120 --> 00:14:36,240 So it can be a real problem trying to do it after the fact. 364 00:14:36,240 --> 00:14:37,160 Yeah, absolutely. 365 00:14:37,160 --> 00:14:39,240 So this bill that you were talking about 366 00:14:39,240 --> 00:14:41,000 that I also saw the article on, 367 00:14:41,000 --> 00:14:45,040 you were kind of going over some of the requirements 368 00:14:45,040 --> 00:14:46,440 of the bill. 369 00:14:46,440 --> 00:14:50,480 How does the bill actually affect counties versus cities? 370 00:14:50,480 --> 00:14:52,320 Is it exactly the same? 371 00:14:52,320 --> 00:14:54,640 You mentioned kind of those requirements that say 372 00:14:54,640 --> 00:14:58,920 you can't regulate parking past these kind of limitations. 373 00:14:58,920 --> 00:15:01,600 Are all counties kind of thrown in there 374 00:15:01,600 --> 00:15:06,200 and no matter the situation or does the bill affect counties 375 00:15:06,200 --> 00:15:08,920 differently based on maybe different situations 376 00:15:08,920 --> 00:15:10,520 or different types of counties? 377 00:15:10,520 --> 00:15:14,960 The initial bill as it was drafted and introduced 378 00:15:14,960 --> 00:15:16,880 one of the interesting things about it 379 00:15:16,880 --> 00:15:18,800 is that in the intent section it noted 380 00:15:18,800 --> 00:15:20,680 that a one size fits all approach 381 00:15:20,680 --> 00:15:23,280 does not work for all places. 382 00:15:23,280 --> 00:15:27,120 And then went on to prescribe a one size fits all approach 383 00:15:27,120 --> 00:15:30,600 for cities and code cities and counties. 384 00:15:30,600 --> 00:15:31,640 That's a little ironic. 385 00:15:31,640 --> 00:15:32,640 Well, a little bit. 386 00:15:32,640 --> 00:15:33,480 A little bit. 387 00:15:34,400 --> 00:15:39,160 However, the bill was made it through policy committee, 388 00:15:39,160 --> 00:15:40,840 made it through fiscal committee, 389 00:15:40,840 --> 00:15:44,800 was voted on on the floor of the Senate successfully, 390 00:15:44,800 --> 00:15:46,440 made it out of the Senate. 391 00:15:47,400 --> 00:15:50,960 But in that process was amended on the floor of the Senate 392 00:15:50,960 --> 00:15:53,560 to include some what I would consider, 393 00:15:53,560 --> 00:15:56,080 what we would consider improvements 394 00:15:56,080 --> 00:15:59,720 to limit the impact to counties specifically. 395 00:15:59,720 --> 00:16:02,840 And those two key improvements are one, 396 00:16:02,840 --> 00:16:07,480 the ability to do a study to identify places where, 397 00:16:07,480 --> 00:16:10,240 the ability for a county to do a study to identify places 398 00:16:10,240 --> 00:16:14,120 where not having parking minimums would cause 399 00:16:14,120 --> 00:16:17,120 those kinds of traffic safety problems 400 00:16:17,120 --> 00:16:18,920 that we talked about before. 401 00:16:18,920 --> 00:16:23,920 And number two, that in order for counties to be held 402 00:16:25,680 --> 00:16:27,440 to the stipulations in the bill, 403 00:16:27,440 --> 00:16:29,440 they would have to have their roads built 404 00:16:29,440 --> 00:16:31,640 to the standards of the city, 405 00:16:31,640 --> 00:16:35,680 biggest city in that county or the cities in the county, 406 00:16:35,680 --> 00:16:40,600 which eliminates most of those more rural roads, 407 00:16:40,600 --> 00:16:44,080 roads that may have gravel shoulders or drainage ditches, 408 00:16:44,080 --> 00:16:49,080 or be gravel roads, or be particularly narrow, 409 00:16:49,520 --> 00:16:52,160 those kinds of situations should be eliminated. 410 00:16:52,160 --> 00:16:56,600 So we're actually a lot happier with the look of the bill 411 00:16:56,600 --> 00:16:59,520 coming out of the Senate than we were initially. 412 00:16:59,520 --> 00:17:00,520 So with these amendments, 413 00:17:00,520 --> 00:17:04,480 it almost seems like it just pretty narrowly focuses 414 00:17:04,480 --> 00:17:09,480 those restrictions on regulating off street parking minimums 415 00:17:09,480 --> 00:17:14,360 to the more urban areas of unincorporated land. 416 00:17:14,360 --> 00:17:18,000 So either these islands that are pretty incorporated 417 00:17:18,000 --> 00:17:22,000 or maybe the areas that are really most close to the cities 418 00:17:22,000 --> 00:17:25,200 where the roads have been built to a more urban standard. 419 00:17:25,200 --> 00:17:27,800 And there's a big difference between a rural road 420 00:17:27,800 --> 00:17:30,320 and an urban road, just even in the shape of the road 421 00:17:30,320 --> 00:17:32,560 and the way that they're designed to drain, right? 422 00:17:32,560 --> 00:17:34,480 I mean, a rural road drains into a ditch, 423 00:17:34,480 --> 00:17:36,240 but there's no ditches in a city, right? 424 00:17:36,240 --> 00:17:39,460 They've got drainage and shoulders and curbs and gutters, 425 00:17:39,460 --> 00:17:41,520 and sidewalks and all that sort of stuff. 426 00:17:41,520 --> 00:17:45,320 So in order for the county to be held to the same standard, 427 00:17:45,320 --> 00:17:47,760 basically it's that city type road construction 428 00:17:47,760 --> 00:17:50,520 that has to be in place in that particular location. 429 00:17:50,520 --> 00:17:52,560 Well, that seems like a big improvement in the bill. 430 00:17:52,560 --> 00:17:55,000 Yeah, absolutely, we would say that. 431 00:17:55,000 --> 00:17:57,320 So you mentioned this other bill, 432 00:17:57,320 --> 00:18:00,080 House Bill 1299, not moving. 433 00:18:00,080 --> 00:18:02,720 Are there other parking regulations out there 434 00:18:02,720 --> 00:18:04,120 that we're also concerned about, 435 00:18:04,120 --> 00:18:06,480 or is that the primary driver this year? 436 00:18:06,480 --> 00:18:08,920 The other bill that members should be aware of 437 00:18:08,920 --> 00:18:12,920 is House Bill 1183, which was sponsored 438 00:18:12,920 --> 00:18:17,160 by House Local Government Chair, Davina Doerr. 439 00:18:17,160 --> 00:18:19,680 And title is Concerning Building Code 440 00:18:19,680 --> 00:18:21,840 and Development Regulation Reform, 441 00:18:21,840 --> 00:18:25,240 but also has some parking language in there. 442 00:18:25,240 --> 00:18:27,720 Similar to the bills we just discussed, 443 00:18:27,720 --> 00:18:29,400 it included some restrictions 444 00:18:29,400 --> 00:18:32,360 on what types of parking minimums you could regulate 445 00:18:32,360 --> 00:18:34,520 or impose in your jurisdiction. 446 00:18:34,520 --> 00:18:38,080 That bill also had amended onto it the language 447 00:18:38,080 --> 00:18:41,840 stating that roads had to be built to an urban standard 448 00:18:41,840 --> 00:18:44,120 in order for those parking minimums 449 00:18:44,120 --> 00:18:47,600 or prohibitions on parking minimums to apply. 450 00:18:47,600 --> 00:18:50,960 Okay, so even though that bill originally 451 00:18:50,960 --> 00:18:52,940 was probably concerning to us, 452 00:18:52,940 --> 00:18:55,240 it's also been amended a lot like that Senate version 453 00:18:55,240 --> 00:18:56,200 we were just talking about. 454 00:18:56,200 --> 00:18:58,680 So it's much better for counties than it was before. 455 00:18:58,680 --> 00:18:59,520 Correct. 456 00:18:59,520 --> 00:19:04,240 Okay, so that's the majority of the parking conversation, 457 00:19:04,240 --> 00:19:05,360 I guess, this year. 458 00:19:05,360 --> 00:19:07,760 It's really been kind of ongoing now 459 00:19:07,760 --> 00:19:08,640 for several years. 460 00:19:08,640 --> 00:19:12,080 I doubt this is the last time we're gonna see 461 00:19:12,080 --> 00:19:15,800 what I kind of call the war on parking continue, 462 00:19:15,800 --> 00:19:17,280 especially in the urban environments, 463 00:19:17,280 --> 00:19:20,200 but maybe we finally got to the point 464 00:19:20,200 --> 00:19:23,200 where the legislature understands the difference 465 00:19:23,200 --> 00:19:26,640 between urban roads and rural roadways. 466 00:19:26,640 --> 00:19:27,480 You think that the- 467 00:19:27,480 --> 00:19:28,320 Maybe. 468 00:19:28,320 --> 00:19:29,140 Yeah. 469 00:19:29,140 --> 00:19:31,340 But for those of you who couldn't see, 470 00:19:31,340 --> 00:19:34,160 she was shaking her head exactly the other direction. 471 00:19:34,160 --> 00:19:37,440 You're a little more pessimistic about it than I was. 472 00:19:37,440 --> 00:19:41,120 I was trying to show some optimism there on a Friday. 473 00:19:41,120 --> 00:19:44,320 In truth, I think there is a lot of frustration 474 00:19:44,320 --> 00:19:48,180 and concern and fear 475 00:19:48,180 --> 00:19:51,000 built into the conversation around housing, right? 476 00:19:51,000 --> 00:19:52,880 Almost everybody can look around them 477 00:19:52,880 --> 00:19:56,080 and think whatever we're doing is not working. 478 00:19:56,080 --> 00:19:56,920 Right. 479 00:19:56,920 --> 00:19:58,160 And therefore you wanna fix it, 480 00:19:58,160 --> 00:19:59,520 especially if you're a legislator 481 00:19:59,520 --> 00:20:01,120 or a local elected official, right? 482 00:20:01,120 --> 00:20:02,440 You wanna do something about it. 483 00:20:02,440 --> 00:20:03,800 You wanna help the problem. 484 00:20:03,800 --> 00:20:04,640 Right. 485 00:20:04,640 --> 00:20:08,080 And the truth is that it is a very complex problem. 486 00:20:08,080 --> 00:20:10,500 It took us a long time to get here 487 00:20:10,500 --> 00:20:14,360 and it's probably going to take us a while to fix it. 488 00:20:14,360 --> 00:20:18,200 That is not an acceptable scenario to a lot of people, 489 00:20:18,200 --> 00:20:19,580 which I think is good, right? 490 00:20:19,580 --> 00:20:21,260 We want folks that are really motivated 491 00:20:21,260 --> 00:20:23,700 to solve the problems they see in their communities. 492 00:20:23,700 --> 00:20:26,680 I think eliminating parking minimums, 493 00:20:26,680 --> 00:20:29,040 differently regulating parking 494 00:20:29,040 --> 00:20:32,400 is seen as a piece of the answer. 495 00:20:32,400 --> 00:20:35,480 And so that's why I think we see so much attention on it 496 00:20:35,480 --> 00:20:37,680 because absent a better solution, 497 00:20:37,680 --> 00:20:39,200 it's the one that folks, you know, 498 00:20:39,200 --> 00:20:41,080 what is the saying that you have a hammer, 499 00:20:41,080 --> 00:20:42,720 everything looks like a nail or something? 500 00:20:42,720 --> 00:20:45,440 Yeah, there's definitely that saying for sure. 501 00:20:45,440 --> 00:20:46,280 Something like that. 502 00:20:46,280 --> 00:20:48,380 If the only tool you have is a hammer, 503 00:20:48,380 --> 00:20:50,040 then every problem looks like a nail. 504 00:20:50,040 --> 00:20:50,880 Yeah. 505 00:20:50,880 --> 00:20:53,120 So I think, you know, I was trying to make a connection, 506 00:20:53,120 --> 00:20:54,120 but it was too hard. 507 00:20:54,120 --> 00:20:55,500 So. 508 00:20:55,500 --> 00:20:58,640 Well, it will be interesting to see as time goes by 509 00:20:58,640 --> 00:21:01,660 whether or not all of this focus on parking 510 00:21:01,660 --> 00:21:03,880 as it relates to housing actually makes a difference 511 00:21:03,880 --> 00:21:05,480 if it really moves the needle at all. 512 00:21:05,480 --> 00:21:07,400 I have to be honest with you, I'm skeptical. 513 00:21:07,400 --> 00:21:12,060 I think in some cases where you've got regulations in place 514 00:21:12,060 --> 00:21:17,000 that, you know, the parking minimums are so big 515 00:21:17,000 --> 00:21:20,600 that it is driving the costs at a high level 516 00:21:20,600 --> 00:21:23,800 and that there's no way that really that much parking 517 00:21:23,800 --> 00:21:25,520 is actually going to be needed. 518 00:21:25,520 --> 00:21:29,140 I think that in those instances, they make a very good case. 519 00:21:29,140 --> 00:21:32,680 But in most other instances where the parking requirements 520 00:21:32,680 --> 00:21:36,200 are, you know, pretty common sense, you know, 521 00:21:36,200 --> 00:21:39,800 like two parking spaces for every house, that sort of thing. 522 00:21:39,800 --> 00:21:43,520 I just feel like this is one of those issues 523 00:21:43,520 --> 00:21:45,840 that gets caught up and is interesting to talk about, 524 00:21:45,840 --> 00:21:48,460 but really isn't going to have a significant impact. 525 00:21:48,460 --> 00:21:49,580 But maybe I'm wrong. 526 00:21:49,580 --> 00:21:52,240 You know, the legislature clearly thinks that I am 527 00:21:52,240 --> 00:21:54,580 and they're, you know, making some decisions 528 00:21:54,580 --> 00:21:55,600 and moving in a direction. 529 00:21:55,600 --> 00:21:58,560 So we'll just have to see how things play out long-term. 530 00:21:58,560 --> 00:22:01,640 Well, Paul, as I noted, this is one piece 531 00:22:01,640 --> 00:22:03,000 of a proposed solution. 532 00:22:03,000 --> 00:22:03,840 Yeah. 533 00:22:03,840 --> 00:22:07,280 There are others, including planning and permitting reform, 534 00:22:07,280 --> 00:22:11,320 which I've also been a major focus of the work up here. 535 00:22:11,320 --> 00:22:15,600 So parking, planning, and permitting are pieces 536 00:22:15,600 --> 00:22:16,440 of the puzzle. 537 00:22:16,440 --> 00:22:17,260 Of the puzzle. 538 00:22:17,260 --> 00:22:18,280 I think we should end it right there. 539 00:22:18,280 --> 00:22:19,120 You're welcome. 540 00:22:20,680 --> 00:22:22,040 Well, happy Friday. 541 00:22:22,040 --> 00:22:23,120 Have a good weekend. 542 00:22:23,120 --> 00:22:24,180 Happy cutoff. 543 00:22:24,180 --> 00:22:29,040 And I was going to end it with a Star Trek reference 544 00:22:29,040 --> 00:22:29,880 and I blew it. 545 00:22:29,880 --> 00:22:31,280 I just, I completely blanked. 546 00:22:31,280 --> 00:22:32,320 Live long and prosper. 547 00:22:32,320 --> 00:22:33,160 There you go. 548 00:22:36,160 --> 00:22:38,200 Thanks for tuning in to County Connection. 549 00:22:38,200 --> 00:22:39,940 Stay in the loop by subscribing to us 550 00:22:39,940 --> 00:22:41,720 through your preferred podcasting app 551 00:22:41,720 --> 00:22:45,040 and following us on LinkedIn, Facebook, and Instagram. 552 00:22:45,040 --> 00:22:46,400 And don't forget to join the hub, 553 00:22:46,400 --> 00:22:48,600 your go-to source for the latest news and updates 554 00:22:48,600 --> 00:22:51,040 from the Washington State Association of Counties. 555 00:22:51,040 --> 00:22:54,600 Until next time, stay connected and stay informed. 556 00:22:54,600 --> 00:23:21,200 I'll see you next time.