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How do you know all this?

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I know a lot of things, Paul.

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Welcome to County Connection,

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the official podcast of the Washington State Association

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of Counties, where we dive into the legislative issues

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shaping the future of our communities.

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From budgets to public safety, infrastructure to elections,

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we'll break down what's happening in Olympia

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and how it impacts counties from across the Evergreen State.

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Stay informed, stay engaged, and join us

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as we amplify the voice of Washington's 39 counties.

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Welcome back, everybody, to Episode 2

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of the County Connection podcast.

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I'm Paul Jewell, Government Relations Director

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for the Washington State Association of Counties.

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And I'm back here this time with Kelsey Hulse.

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If you don't remember from our last podcast

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where Kelsey introduced herself, she is brand new

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to the WSAC policy team. Kelsey, how are you doing?

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I'm doing great. Are you implying that people

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aren't binging these podcasts and just listening to them back to back?

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Well, I think that, you know, the one or two people

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that have heard them so far probably are super familiar

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and have memorized them.

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But yeah, for the for maybe some new listeners

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who are just getting started with us, I wanted to make sure

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that they knew who who they were listening to.

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Hi, new listeners.

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Yeah, it's great. It's great to have them.

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It's great to have you.

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We're now in week two of the legislative session.

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You know, we were just here a few days ago.

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It feels like kind of doing our introductory podcast,

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talking about what to expect.

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It feels like that's a long time ago already.

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How are you holding up?

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I like to say that session is just one big squishy day.

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So it's sort of hard to divide it up into periods of time.

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But fine. I mean, we got a lot of days ahead.

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The pace of it, I think, feels a little short session to a lot of people.

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So feels like there's kind of an early sprint going on right now.

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It does feel that way, doesn't it?

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And for those who maybe aren't familiar with Washington's

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legislative sessions, we have a we have a biennial legislative session,

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which is a two year session.

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And we're in the first year of that.

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The first the first year is always our long session, which is one hundred and five days.

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And then the second year is only a 60 day short session.

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And the reason we say that the long session is feeling more like a short session

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is because the legislature, while traditionally the short session

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was only really for doing budget updates and maybe some policy follow ups,

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they've really turned it into almost a full session like the long session.

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But they try to cram it in those 60 days when it's really compressed.

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And so it feels like you're sprinting right from the very beginning.

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Whereas the long session, even though it's longer, usually the pace is slower.

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But that really doesn't feel that way this year, does it?

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Yeah. A lot of people are telling me the same thing.

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So what do you what do you want to chat about today?

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I'd love to talk a little bit about energy.

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There's a lot happening in that space, both policy wise and just changes in leadership.

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We're going to have a big influence.

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So that we touch on that.

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Yeah, there's actually a lot going on recently.

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Today's Friday.

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We had the inauguration of the new president

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this week as well.

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And there's a lot of energy news on the national scale, too.

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So this is really good timing for us.

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Yeah. And I think one of the things we can highlight or touch on at this point

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is that there still is a lot of unknown, which we talked about last time I was here.

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But one of those pieces is just how the federal policy changes.

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Federal landscape is going to influence what happens here in Washington state.

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Large energy facilities are all regulated by the federal government.

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So the Bonneville power system is all owned by the federal government,

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run by the federal government.

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So there's a lot of federal influence over the system as a whole.

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And so seeing how that plays out with Washington's priorities

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and goals is going to be going to be really interesting.

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Well, in Washington has a really strong clean energy agenda.

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A few years ago, we passed the Clean Energy Transformation Act,

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also known as also known as CETA, which requires all energy

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marketed, utilized in Washington state by I think, is it 2054, 2045

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to be 100 percent clean.

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And a lot of that depends on new development of alternative sources

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of energy like wind and solar and others.

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The biggest ones being right now wind and solar.

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Of course, energy storage is also becoming more of a thing.

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And the legislature right now is looking at small scale reactors also.

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So nuclear energy.

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But really, the big strides have been made in the last year

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in wind and solar.

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The Trump administration is looks like it's switching gears on its energy policy,

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which is really interesting because I would think that our really

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ambitious goals around clean energy are really going to depend on a lot

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of the federal subsidies and incentives that have been coming down

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that encourage the development of those new energy producing facilities

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like new wind farms, like new solar farms.

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You know, it'll be interesting to see over the next few years

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how the change in federal policy does or doesn't affect the change

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in our state policy.

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Yeah, I think that's a great point.

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And one thing that I've noticed is that there, while we've got some bills

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that are moving in the legislature that have to do with setting up

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some sort of a transmission authority and a couple of those bills

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also have some element that speaks to the financing piece

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and where that financing comes from.

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I don't actually think that's a real barrier in the energy space so far.

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We've seen a lot of companies and a lot of people who are willing

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to put a lot of money behind these developments.

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So I think we will continue to see that as long as there is a place to sell

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that renewable carbon free energy, which at least in Washington state,

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there will be a market for it.

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So it'll be interesting to see how the change in preference around energy type

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kind of collides with the desire to let market-based solutions come about

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and to start working in the landscape.

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And so I'm not sure how that tension will play out,

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how that tension will change what we see in terms of energy development

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in the near term, but it's certainly something to watch.

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Well, I think tension is actually a good word for it.

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When you think about the energy system, it's already really complex.

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A lot of people really don't understand how it works,

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how energy produced actually gets into the grid system

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and where it goes and how it's directed and who manages that.

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But for the last several years,

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our policies have really been aligned on a national level.

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Now they're not going to be, but you're right,

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there still will be a market in the Northwest and specifically in Washington state

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because even though maybe some of the financial incentives

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and some of the support on the federal level has gone away,

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I don't see our policy really changing.

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I don't really see a huge shift between the Inslee administration

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and the Ferguson administration in that just because those federal subsidies go away,

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just because those federal incentives go away,

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that Washington is going to say, OK, we're going to switch gears too.

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I think we're probably going to stay the course in many ways,

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which creates that demand that you're talking about and that market that you're talking about.

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What will be interesting is we have traditionally enjoyed

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a pretty inexpensive power market here in the West, really since inception.

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One of the lowest kilowatt hour rates nationwide,

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maybe even globally in some of our areas.

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And a lot of that is due to the federal investment that occurred

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as part of the New Deal really under FDR

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and all the projects they did on the Columbia River,

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building out the hydro capacity and otherwise.

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It will, you know, without continuing subsidies,

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without those federal incentives, the financial incentives,

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but with continued demand for the power,

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are we just going to get more expensive power than we've had in the past?

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And are we going to have to kind of change our mindset a little bit

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in what we expect to pay for that resource?

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Yes, probably.

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In the interest of full disclosure,

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I'm a former Puget Sound Energy employee,

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but I'm also a Puget Sound Energy customer,

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and they just announced an 18% rate increase on the electric side of the business.

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So I live in an all electric house.

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That's, you know, that's a pretty substantial rate increase,

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not something that we used to see at all.

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Very substantial.

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And part of that, the reason that it is so large is, you know,

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compliance with some of these new laws.

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So because this is law in Washington, you know, that piece is not going to change.

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So we will have to get used to thinking a little differently about it

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as we're paying more for the types of resources that we've decided that we want.

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There's nothing like getting home and getting that envelope,

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cracking that thing open and seeing that letter that says,

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you get the right to enjoy an 18% utility rate increase.

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Welcome home.

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That's part of the reason I have 52 solar panels on my roof was

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I have lots of feelings about solar panels,

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but really I saw them as a hedge against increasing energy prices.

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Yeah.

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Because we pay, you know, we pay for less kilowatt hours

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because our home needs less of them.

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Sure. You're doing the whole net metering. Correct.

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Program. Sure.

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That's been in place for a long time in Washington state.

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And a lot of people think that that distributed generation type program

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with smaller scale solar and wind power, you know, on rooftops and parking lots

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and other spaces is actually the real future of energy production, even globally,

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that we're we don't have enough land.

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We don't have enough resources to really justify putting together these huge,

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massive plants on the scale that globally that we're going to need in the future

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if we completely get off of fossil fuels to renewable resources.

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So we're going to have to do a lot more of that.

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And you see it in a lot more communities, but that's kind of off the point a little bit.

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Let's come back more to kind of statewide policy.

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How do you see the state kind of maneuvering in this new reality

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under the Ferguson administration and under new leadership over

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at the Department of Commerce, who is usually pretty involved

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in this industry from a state agency perspective?

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I think, yes, that's that's exactly right.

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We've got a new new governor, new policy shop there.

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There are less folks in that policy shop that are focused on energy and climate

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than we saw in the previous administration.

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Not clear what that's going to mean exactly.

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But I think part of it is that we do have somebody who's very energy

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focused now in Director Wynn leading the Department of Commerce.

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So watching how the governor's office and the Department of Commerce

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are going to work together to try and solve some of these massive challenges

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that have been certainly identified and something we've been aware of for a long time,

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but certainly are, I would say, coming to the fore just in the last few years.

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And I'm speaking about challenges around resource adequacy, for example.

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We just don't have the power that we're going to need, particularly

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as we watch the proliferation of AI and the amount of energy

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that's required for those tools.

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Yeah, aren't they saying aren't they estimating that Washington's

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going to need like 90 percent more power in 20 years?

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I think that's the number than we have now.

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Right. And that number just keeps going up, right?

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Because we're only at, I think, the very beginning of understanding

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what AI can do, but also what it will cost us.

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And so we've already got there are, you know, county based public utilities

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out there in Washington and other utilities who when companies come to them

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and say, I'm going to, you know, I want to locate in your service area

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and I'm going to need this much power.

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They're already saying we don't have it.

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You don't have it to give it to you.

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So.

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And that was never the case in the past.

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This is a new problem that we're dealing with.

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And we're watching as this demand for energy is going to

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rapidly increase in the future.

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We have not been able to build out resources to meet that.

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So that is that sort of confluence of AI and the energy demand around that.

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When you couple that with electrification of everything else.

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I drove an electric car here today.

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Right.

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When you add that to it and the fact that we haven't been building

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large generation resources for the most part, we've got some, but certainly

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not on the order of magnitude of what we need.

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Those two things kind of come, come, come into conflict.

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Right.

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Yeah.

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And it's not just generation either.

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Right.

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It's transmission to the transmission infrastructure that we have now was built,

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you know, 50, 60 years ago to, you know, carry loads that were a lot different

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than we need today and a lot different than what we're going to need in the future.

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And of course they were built when there was a lot less population.

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Right.

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So it was a lot easier to locate that type of infrastructure,

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much more difficult today.

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I was talking with some other folks in the power industry and they were

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talking about Eastern Montana and the potential for Eastern Montana from a

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wind perspective, they were calling it the Saudi Arabia of wind because it

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blows so much there and the spaces are just wide open, but they can't build

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the capacity that they want to because they don't have the transmission

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capability that they need.

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And it's, and they need that transmission, that transmission to come out of

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Montana and come to the West.

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And I imagine a lot of our communities are going to be asked at some point in

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the near future to consider being locations for pretty massive, scaled,

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you know, high capacity transmission lines and new lines, not just adding

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to the ones that are there or maybe improving the ones that are there, but

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even adding new lines and new locations.

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Are you hearing the same thing?

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Yeah.

259
00:14:05,040 --> 00:14:10,000
And even if you're talking about kind of adding lines to existing corridors or

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existing right of ways, which has been a big part of the conversation, you know,

261
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every wire can only carry so much power.

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At some point you're going to need bigger wires or more wires.

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And as those get bigger, or there are more of them, you've got to build

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larger towers and if you've got a larger tower, you need a, you need a larger

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setback from, you know, tree line and vegetation setback from those wires.

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And the farther you go, the more you lose in conveyance loss, right?

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Correct.

268
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Yep.

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Because it just, you lose some of that power as it travels along those wires.

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Yeah.

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I think there was a desire or a hope that sort of reconducting or making

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better use of the corridors that we already have was going to be an answer

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to, to kind of solve the problem.

274
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Yeah.

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Maybe put big tower, bigger towers there, or maybe put more lines on the towers.

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Yes.

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And that is probably still going to require cutting millions of trees to

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widen those corridors.

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And especially if you're talking about an East West corridor, you know,

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perhaps across the Cascades.

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So that's something that I think is hard for folks to wrap their heads around

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just logistically how that would work or what it would look like.

283
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But you're right.

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It's going to impact a lot of communities if for no other reason, the linear

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nature of the infrastructure you're trying to build, right?

286
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It's a big, long straight line that's going to cut through a whole bunch of stuff.

287
00:15:26,520 --> 00:15:27,080
Interesting.

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00:15:27,080 --> 00:15:31,680
So when, when we think about how this is going to affect counties, you know, we,

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we just were chatting about transmission.

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Obviously counties make up every square inch of Washington, and they're

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every inch of Washington state.

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You know, there's some county somewhere and those lines are going to have to go

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somewhere and those lines are going to cross counties.

294
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And so we're definitely going to have some involvement there or be asked to

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host, you know, those, those transmission lines in our communities.

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But what else are we going to see, you know, kind of in the future around energy

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policy in Washington, you know, that's either similar to what we're seeing now

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or maybe even not similar to what we're seeing now.

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I'd start by saying that I've been encouraged as I'm reviewing bills that

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have come out so far that every one, I think without exception, that deals with

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energy and energy infrastructure also includes language about local governments,

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including local governments in the conversation, include making sure that

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local governments are benefiting from anything that's going to be cited in or

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around their communities.

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I think that's a really positive thing and something that, you know, we want to

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encourage more of.

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But I think to your previous point about distributed generation, my understanding

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is that we'll see a bill around

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DERs, distributed energy resources, so small

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batteries and other kind of sources of energy.

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So DERs will be a thing, you know, community solar, we've seen one bill drop.

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I think there's at least one more on the way.

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So there's a variety of those kind of smaller tools that are distributed, could

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be based in every community, could provide some value to, you know, members

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of communities across the state, almost regardless of location.

316
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So we'll see a lot of that democratization, I suppose, of the energy

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and the generation picture as well.

318
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Interesting. Well, so that's the small scale stuff.

319
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You think we're going to we've seen a lot of that in recent years.

320
00:17:34,560 --> 00:17:36,840
You think we're going to see even more and maybe some different kinds.

321
00:17:36,840 --> 00:17:40,600
Like you said, the energy resources, so small scale battery storage.

322
00:17:41,000 --> 00:17:42,800
What about the larger projects?

323
00:17:42,800 --> 00:17:45,760
Do you think we're going to we're going to continue to see development

324
00:17:45,760 --> 00:17:49,160
at the same level? Do you think we're going to see development at a greater level?

325
00:17:49,160 --> 00:17:50,480
What are your predictions?

326
00:17:50,480 --> 00:17:53,800
I think we're going to see a real seriousness around development.

327
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I think all of these projects take a very long time, typically,

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even in the best of circumstances.

329
00:17:59,320 --> 00:18:03,320
And so there is more conversation right now about how we

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how we think about large scale resources than I think there's ever been,

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you know, since I've been in Washington.

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00:18:11,360 --> 00:18:14,840
So I think, you know, we're seeing bills to kind of amend

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00:18:14,840 --> 00:18:19,120
FSEC and the way that FSEC works and the, you know, how it operates,

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00:18:19,120 --> 00:18:21,360
the kinds of projects that it can approve.

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00:18:21,360 --> 00:18:26,080
We're seeing more conversations around nuclear power, whether it's big nuke or small.

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Just more. The volume of it is more.

337
00:18:28,280 --> 00:18:30,360
And I think particularly on the transmission side,

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00:18:30,360 --> 00:18:33,360
there's a real seriousness and an urgency to the conversation

339
00:18:33,360 --> 00:18:34,480
that we haven't seen before.

340
00:18:34,480 --> 00:18:35,800
So you mentioned FSEC.

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00:18:35,800 --> 00:18:38,800
That's the first time you've mentioned it in the podcast today.

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00:18:39,320 --> 00:18:43,400
For the listeners who don't know what you're talking about, what is FSEC?

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00:18:43,440 --> 00:18:47,480
FSEC is the Energy Facility Site Evaluation Council.

344
00:18:47,760 --> 00:18:48,400
Yeah, that's right.

345
00:18:48,400 --> 00:18:51,000
So it's kind of an interesting acronym.

346
00:18:51,280 --> 00:18:57,240
It doesn't sound it doesn't sound like that when you say it, but it's EFSEC.

347
00:18:57,240 --> 00:18:59,240
Right. So Echo Foxtrot.

348
00:18:59,240 --> 00:19:00,960
I can't remember what the S is.

349
00:19:00,960 --> 00:19:03,000
Echo Charlie.

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00:19:03,000 --> 00:19:06,280
If you're using the most of it, you're using the phonetic alphabet.

351
00:19:07,240 --> 00:19:09,640
And what is what is this council?

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What do they do?

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00:19:10,760 --> 00:19:15,240
FSEC has been given the authority to cite large scale energy projects.

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So they have an evaluation process.

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00:19:17,680 --> 00:19:20,080
They make a recommendation to the governor

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00:19:20,080 --> 00:19:25,400
and they essentially have the power to authorize projects to move forward.

357
00:19:25,400 --> 00:19:30,720
So even if they aren't compatible with local codes around land use

358
00:19:30,720 --> 00:19:33,000
and zoning and development, right? Yeah.

359
00:19:33,000 --> 00:19:35,880
Yeah. So and sometimes that's a rub with our members for obvious reasons.

360
00:19:35,880 --> 00:19:40,520
Yeah. But also at the same time, you can understand why at a statewide level,

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00:19:40,520 --> 00:19:45,960
when you have a statewide policy and you have things like transmission lines,

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00:19:45,960 --> 00:19:49,280
major transmission lines that might need to cross different jurisdictions,

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00:19:49,280 --> 00:19:53,680
why in some cases you may need a statewide permitting agency

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00:19:53,680 --> 00:19:58,680
like the Energy Facility Site Evaluation or Siteen Evaluation Council

365
00:19:58,680 --> 00:20:02,240
so that you could expedite those permits in a way that, you know,

366
00:20:02,240 --> 00:20:07,120
doesn't necessarily allow every local jurisdiction to kind of have their say in their way.

367
00:20:07,120 --> 00:20:11,960
Yeah. I mean, I think it's fair to say that we've got a big statewide problem

368
00:20:11,960 --> 00:20:18,080
that we have to solve and somebody's got to have a focus on that. Right.

369
00:20:18,080 --> 00:20:23,360
How do we solve this this problem that this is generational in nature?

370
00:20:23,360 --> 00:20:25,520
Right. We've never seen anything like this before.

371
00:20:25,520 --> 00:20:30,640
Hopefully, we will make some bold steps and we won't just be talking about it forever.

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00:20:30,640 --> 00:20:36,800
But I think it's fair to say that you have to have entities and agencies.

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00:20:36,800 --> 00:20:41,040
And that's kind of the job of the state government, right, is to keep in mind

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00:20:41,040 --> 00:20:46,080
the best interest of the state as a whole, which is a tough thing to do because it does, again,

375
00:20:46,080 --> 00:20:50,480
you know, we talked about tension before, but it will always exist in tension with

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00:20:50,480 --> 00:20:55,680
the needs, wants, desires and preferences of local communities.

377
00:20:55,680 --> 00:21:00,960
Yeah. I mean, that's another really appropriate time to use that term tension.

378
00:21:02,320 --> 00:21:06,640
With a lot of our members, you know, some have had a really good experience with

379
00:21:06,640 --> 00:21:11,200
the council and the siting process. Some have had mixed reviews and others,

380
00:21:11,200 --> 00:21:13,440
you know, would tell you they've had a really negative experience.

381
00:21:14,080 --> 00:21:20,400
And I think the rub really comes where the, you know, the state has placed communities in a position

382
00:21:20,400 --> 00:21:26,160
where they've created a statewide planning framework that really requires a ton of robust

383
00:21:26,160 --> 00:21:31,760
public participation and decision making. It's not a top down approach where the legislative

384
00:21:31,760 --> 00:21:36,560
authority just kind of dictates, you know, zoning and land use codes and development codes.

385
00:21:36,560 --> 00:21:44,080
There really is this very lengthy and very thorough public process that the community

386
00:21:44,080 --> 00:21:49,200
has to go through in deciding kind of, you know, what it wants to be, you know, envisioning not

387
00:21:49,200 --> 00:21:54,320
just how it is today, but where it wants to be in 20 years, right? Looking out at a 20 year window.

388
00:21:54,320 --> 00:21:58,400
And then, you know, suddenly they get an application for something like a wind farm or

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00:21:58,400 --> 00:22:04,320
several wind farms or a solar farm or several solar farms or a transmission line that can screw

390
00:22:04,320 --> 00:22:10,400
all of that up or really change how that might look. And they have no ability to shape that

391
00:22:10,400 --> 00:22:16,240
project or stop that project. Because at the end of the day, this siting council, the energy

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00:22:16,240 --> 00:22:22,960
facility site evaluation council, which exists for a good reason, also can undo and undermine

393
00:22:22,960 --> 00:22:28,160
those plans. And that can that's where that tension is and where some of our members really

394
00:22:28,160 --> 00:22:34,160
feel pretty negatively about the process. A lot of the bills that we're seeing this year,

395
00:22:34,160 --> 00:22:39,520
and we've seen in recent years, meaning within the last two, are really trying to make it easier,

396
00:22:39,520 --> 00:22:44,480
in my opinion, to develop these projects, given even more authority to the council

397
00:22:44,480 --> 00:22:50,720
and trying to, you know, speed up that permitting process. You mentioned that you're seeing a few

398
00:22:50,720 --> 00:22:54,960
bills this year, they're mentioning local governments and the involvement of local governments.

399
00:22:55,520 --> 00:23:00,400
Are they kind of slowing down some of those processes or are they trying to find ways to

400
00:23:00,400 --> 00:23:06,320
kind of have the best of both worlds? I think there's a realization that we can't continue

401
00:23:06,320 --> 00:23:12,400
doing exactly what we're doing. That's not working. So I think that extends to the that tension that

402
00:23:12,400 --> 00:23:19,360
we talked about between entities like FSEC or the state and local governments. So I think the

403
00:23:19,360 --> 00:23:27,280
signals that I'm seeing is that are that there is a desire to perhaps take a step back, reset a

404
00:23:27,280 --> 00:23:33,440
little bit and figure out how do we find a way forward that can work for everybody, right? It's

405
00:23:33,440 --> 00:23:39,040
not going to be everybody's favorite option, but we've got to find something that gets us where we

406
00:23:39,040 --> 00:23:49,760
need to go without alienating, separating, dividing, you know, communities and folks apart. So I think

407
00:23:49,760 --> 00:23:57,520
that what we're seeing is a recognition that these systems need to work better together and that I

408
00:23:57,520 --> 00:24:01,200
think is what a lot of the leadership that we've got right now is going to be really interested in

409
00:24:01,200 --> 00:24:05,760
working on. If we're going to meet our clean energy goals, the ones that the state has set out for

410
00:24:05,760 --> 00:24:12,880
itself, then we're going to need a lot more of this clean energy production to come online, which

411
00:24:12,880 --> 00:24:18,000
means more facilities, more transmission lines, more solar panels, more wind turbines, you know,

412
00:24:18,000 --> 00:24:26,080
maybe small scale nuclear, maybe geothermal, who knows what the next technology will be. You know,

413
00:24:26,080 --> 00:24:32,000
there's some new pump storage projects that are being proposed out there and likely to be created.

414
00:24:32,000 --> 00:24:37,120
Hydrogen. Hydrogen is another one for sure. So without a doubt, we're just going to need more.

415
00:24:37,120 --> 00:24:41,120
So finding a way to make this work better for everybody, I think is in all of our interests.

416
00:24:41,120 --> 00:24:45,760
And I'm glad that we're seeing some legislation that's pointing in that direction.

417
00:24:45,760 --> 00:24:51,360
Yeah, I think it really does come down to the right thing in the right place, but it's not

418
00:24:51,360 --> 00:24:55,680
going to be a single solution. It's going to be all of them, right? It's going to be some blend of

419
00:24:55,680 --> 00:25:01,600
all the things we talked about, whether it's the smaller, the smaller, the smaller, the smaller

420
00:25:01,600 --> 00:25:07,120
batteries and community solar projects and rooftop solar and that the small scale stuff

421
00:25:07,120 --> 00:25:14,080
and the large scale stuff coupled with, you know, things like conservation and energy efficiency

422
00:25:14,080 --> 00:25:20,400
and, you know, demand response and some of the other programmatic stuff that can be done to help

423
00:25:20,400 --> 00:25:25,920
either reduce the amount of energy that we're using overall or make it easier for the resources

424
00:25:25,920 --> 00:25:31,760
we have to meet the demand that we need. Well, it's good stuff, Kelsey. Thanks for coming by. I just

425
00:25:31,760 --> 00:25:36,640
love talking about this stuff. I feel like we could be here forever if we didn't artificially

426
00:25:36,640 --> 00:25:43,920
put an end to this at some point, put our listeners out of their misery a little bit.

427
00:25:45,040 --> 00:25:51,360
Well, thanks for coming by, Kelsey. Great topic today. A very interesting conversation. Once

428
00:25:51,360 --> 00:25:56,080
again, I know I've said this a few times on other podcasts, but I learned a lot today. I feel like

429
00:25:56,080 --> 00:26:01,120
every time I have one of these conversations, I just get a little bit smarter. I doubt that's true

430
00:26:01,120 --> 00:26:08,800
for you, but I think that you, I think I'm glad you came in anyways. We'll see you in a couple

431
00:26:08,800 --> 00:26:12,480
weeks. Hopefully we'll have something more to chat about. I'm sure we will. Looking forward to it.

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00:26:12,480 --> 00:26:19,120
All right. Take care till then. Thank you. Thanks for tuning in to County Connection. Stay in the

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00:26:19,120 --> 00:26:23,760
loop by subscribing to us through your preferred podcasting app and following us on LinkedIn,

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00:26:23,760 --> 00:26:28,560
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00:26:28,560 --> 00:26:33,520
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00:26:33,520 --> 00:26:49,520
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