WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:02.140 Right, so welcome to the deep dive everybody. 00:00:02.680 --> 00:00:06.000 And today we're really going deep, really tackling 00:00:06.000 --> 00:00:09.839 a fascinating question. Oh yeah. About this sort 00:00:09.839 --> 00:00:12.720 of intersection between scientific truth and 00:00:12.720 --> 00:00:15.519 religious belief. Yeah. Right, like how do those 00:00:15.519 --> 00:00:17.780 two things, how do those two worlds kind of collide 00:00:17.780 --> 00:00:20.079 or coexist? Right. Or maybe even clash? Yeah. 00:00:21.860 --> 00:00:24.780 And our main source, our main lens for this is 00:00:24.780 --> 00:00:27.879 an excerpt from religion fails the scientific 00:00:27.879 --> 00:00:31.199 test of truth dot PDF. Okay. Which is a really, 00:00:31.199 --> 00:00:35.320 it's a really pointed title. It is. But it gives 00:00:35.320 --> 00:00:38.380 us this direct perspective on how truth is views 00:00:38.380 --> 00:00:40.939 from a scientific point of view and what that 00:00:40.939 --> 00:00:43.380 means for how we understand beliefs. Yeah. So 00:00:43.380 --> 00:00:45.259 in this deep dive, what we really want to do 00:00:45.259 --> 00:00:47.920 is try to pull out those core insights. from 00:00:47.920 --> 00:00:49.899 this scientific perspective that you can get 00:00:49.899 --> 00:00:52.079 a better handle on how science approaches knowledge 00:00:52.079 --> 00:00:55.659 and how that differs from the claims that are 00:00:55.659 --> 00:00:58.759 often made in religious context. One of the things 00:00:58.759 --> 00:01:00.619 that really struck me when I was first reading 00:01:00.619 --> 00:01:02.920 through this source was the author's background. 00:01:03.820 --> 00:01:05.840 You know, he talks about growing up in the Bronx, 00:01:05.920 --> 00:01:09.400 being fascinated by the Hayden Planetarium. Yeah. 00:01:09.560 --> 00:01:12.120 And it got me thinking about, you know, how scientists 00:01:12.120 --> 00:01:15.700 often seem to be drawn to the unknown, like they're 00:01:15.700 --> 00:01:17.939 comfortable with it. Yeah. Almost like they find 00:01:17.939 --> 00:01:20.420 comfort in those big questions. I think that's 00:01:20.420 --> 00:01:22.620 a really good point, that comfort with the unknown, 00:01:22.739 --> 00:01:24.900 with those big questions. Yeah. I think that 00:01:24.900 --> 00:01:28.659 really highlights a key difference in how science 00:01:28.659 --> 00:01:32.719 and religion approach these really big existential 00:01:32.719 --> 00:01:35.140 questions, right? Like they both deal with the 00:01:35.140 --> 00:01:37.980 really big questions of existence, but their 00:01:37.980 --> 00:01:40.780 methods are really different. You know, science 00:01:40.780 --> 00:01:44.019 is all about objective, verifiable evidence. 00:01:44.459 --> 00:01:47.379 Things we can test, things we can measure, whereas 00:01:47.379 --> 00:01:50.829 religious truths, you know... They're often based 00:01:50.829 --> 00:01:54.290 on personal faith revelation tradition things 00:01:54.290 --> 00:01:56.750 that you kind of have to accept, right? So right 00:01:56.750 --> 00:01:59.269 from the beginning you have these two very different 00:01:59.269 --> 00:02:02.329 ways of looking at the world Exactly. Yeah and 00:02:02.329 --> 00:02:03.849 speaking of different ways of looking at the 00:02:03.849 --> 00:02:06.250 world the author has some strong opinions about 00:02:06.250 --> 00:02:08.750 eyewitness testimony Oh, yeah, he calls it the 00:02:08.750 --> 00:02:13.449 lowest form of evidence in science Wow Which 00:02:13.449 --> 00:02:15.490 is pretty crazy considering how central it is 00:02:15.490 --> 00:02:18.460 and you know our legal systems. Yeah, so So why 00:02:18.460 --> 00:02:20.520 such a big difference in how it's valued? Well, 00:02:20.520 --> 00:02:22.639 I think what's really interesting is that science 00:02:22.639 --> 00:02:26.120 is inherently skeptical of human senses as objective 00:02:26.120 --> 00:02:30.460 data collectors. Our perceptions, they can be 00:02:30.460 --> 00:02:35.020 so easily influenced by bias, by emotions, even 00:02:35.020 --> 00:02:38.280 just the limitations of our own biology. And 00:02:38.280 --> 00:02:40.199 this is where the scientific revolution really 00:02:40.199 --> 00:02:44.120 comes in. Think about Galileo, think about the 00:02:44.120 --> 00:02:46.740 invention of the microscope, the telescope, all 00:02:46.740 --> 00:02:50.360 these instruments that extended our senses allowed 00:02:50.360 --> 00:02:54.740 us to get data that was quantifiable in a way 00:02:54.740 --> 00:02:57.659 that just observing with our naked eyes couldn't. 00:02:57.699 --> 00:02:59.280 Yeah, it makes you question everything you think 00:02:59.280 --> 00:03:03.719 you see. Exactly. So science prioritizes this 00:03:03.719 --> 00:03:07.500 verifiable, repeatable evidence over these subjective 00:03:07.500 --> 00:03:10.360 personal accounts. And that's a big contrast 00:03:10.360 --> 00:03:13.659 to how it's viewed in law. Totally and the source 00:03:13.659 --> 00:03:16.340 even uses near -death experiences. Oh wow as 00:03:16.340 --> 00:03:18.439 like a really interesting example Yeah, you know 00:03:18.439 --> 00:03:21.780 people have these super vivid experiences But 00:03:21.780 --> 00:03:24.520 scientifically it's kind of tricky, right? Yeah, 00:03:24.520 --> 00:03:27.189 I mean These experiences can be incredibly meaningful 00:03:27.189 --> 00:03:29.270 and they feel very real to the people who have 00:03:29.270 --> 00:03:32.949 them, but they are really difficult to verify 00:03:32.949 --> 00:03:36.770 objectively or to like reproduce in a lab. So 00:03:36.770 --> 00:03:38.810 while they're totally worth studying in areas 00:03:38.810 --> 00:03:42.270 like psychology or neuroscience, they don't automatically 00:03:42.270 --> 00:03:45.550 become like a scientific truth that applies to 00:03:45.550 --> 00:03:47.969 everyone. Yeah. And that brings us to this really 00:03:47.969 --> 00:03:50.250 important distinction the author makes between 00:03:50.250 --> 00:03:54.939 like personal truth and objective truth. He uses 00:03:54.939 --> 00:03:58.300 this example, Jesus is your savior as a personal 00:03:58.300 --> 00:04:00.599 truth. So can you unpack that a bit? Like how 00:04:00.599 --> 00:04:03.860 do those two types of truth differ? Well, a personal 00:04:03.860 --> 00:04:06.340 truth is basically something that an individual 00:04:06.780 --> 00:04:09.580 holds to be true for them. It's usually based 00:04:09.580 --> 00:04:13.080 on personal experience, faith, cultural background, 00:04:13.180 --> 00:04:15.800 and it can be very meaningful. It can give you 00:04:15.800 --> 00:04:18.519 a sense of purpose, but it's not something you 00:04:18.519 --> 00:04:21.639 can necessarily prove to someone else. Jesus 00:04:21.639 --> 00:04:25.600 as your savior is a statement of faith. It's 00:04:25.600 --> 00:04:28.959 a personal conviction. It's not something that's 00:04:28.959 --> 00:04:32.209 objectively. It's provable. Objective truths, 00:04:32.310 --> 00:04:34.850 on the other hand, are things like the laws of 00:04:34.850 --> 00:04:37.769 physics or mathematical principles. They're true 00:04:37.769 --> 00:04:40.329 whether you believe in them or not. They exist 00:04:40.329 --> 00:04:43.209 independently. And you can verify them through 00:04:43.209 --> 00:04:48.029 observation, through experimentation. And historically, 00:04:48.509 --> 00:04:51.870 a lot of conflict has come from trying to impose 00:04:51.870 --> 00:04:55.370 these personal religious truths as if they were 00:04:55.370 --> 00:04:58.649 universal objective realities. Yeah, it's like 00:04:58.649 --> 00:05:00.470 those two categories of truth are always kind 00:05:00.470 --> 00:05:02.850 of butting heads. Yeah, exactly. The author then 00:05:02.850 --> 00:05:05.350 throws out this really interesting hypothetical. 00:05:05.769 --> 00:05:10.490 OK, what if someone could demonstrably like prove 00:05:10.490 --> 00:05:13.430 they could do these things that seem divine? 00:05:13.629 --> 00:05:17.370 Like walking on water, or creating food out of 00:05:17.370 --> 00:05:20.050 thin air. Yeah, like how would science even approach 00:05:20.050 --> 00:05:22.189 that? Exactly, like how would science grapple 00:05:22.189 --> 00:05:24.170 with that? Well, I think what's really cool about 00:05:24.170 --> 00:05:26.730 science is that it's inherently investigative. 00:05:27.269 --> 00:05:29.589 If something like that happened, if it was reliably 00:05:29.589 --> 00:05:31.990 observed and it could be repeated, scientists 00:05:31.990 --> 00:05:34.389 would jump at the chance to study it. Of course, 00:05:34.470 --> 00:05:36.769 they'd want to figure it out. The first step 00:05:36.769 --> 00:05:41.370 would be to look for natural explanations within 00:05:41.370 --> 00:05:44.149 our current understanding of the universe. But 00:05:44.149 --> 00:05:47.829 if those explanations consistently failed, and 00:05:47.829 --> 00:05:50.269 if these phenomena were specifically tied to 00:05:50.269 --> 00:05:53.589 one person, scientists might start to consider 00:05:53.589 --> 00:05:57.810 more unconventional explanations. OK, like what? 00:05:57.930 --> 00:06:00.730 Well, the author even jokes about, like, maybe 00:06:00.730 --> 00:06:04.430 it's aliens. Right. So the point is, even something 00:06:04.430 --> 00:06:07.810 that seems extraordinary would still be subject 00:06:07.810 --> 00:06:12.170 to the same scientific rigor, the demand for 00:06:12.170 --> 00:06:15.490 observable, repeatable evidence. That makes sense. 00:06:15.629 --> 00:06:17.569 Yeah, that's how science works. Yeah. All right, 00:06:17.589 --> 00:06:19.509 let's switch gears a bit. I talk about the idea 00:06:19.509 --> 00:06:22.470 of intent in the universe. OK. The source touches 00:06:22.470 --> 00:06:25.269 on this philosophical view that the universe 00:06:25.269 --> 00:06:29.050 is like. and it was designed for human life. 00:06:29.730 --> 00:06:33.709 What's the scientific take on that? Well, when 00:06:33.709 --> 00:06:36.949 you look at the vastness of the cosmos and all 00:06:36.949 --> 00:06:39.490 the things we've observed about it, the idea 00:06:39.490 --> 00:06:43.149 that it was all made just for us starts to seem 00:06:43.149 --> 00:06:45.550 a little less convincing. The author makes a 00:06:45.550 --> 00:06:48.470 really interesting point. He says that... If 00:06:48.470 --> 00:06:50.870 any configuration of the universe could lead 00:06:50.870 --> 00:06:55.069 to beings who then question its order, just because 00:06:55.069 --> 00:06:57.250 we question it doesn't necessarily mean it was 00:06:57.250 --> 00:06:59.569 intentionally designed that way. It could just 00:06:59.569 --> 00:07:02.529 be a natural outcome of how things turned out. 00:07:02.790 --> 00:07:04.850 I see. So it's not necessarily evidence of a 00:07:04.850 --> 00:07:07.899 plan. Right. It's just like things happen. Things 00:07:07.899 --> 00:07:09.920 happen, and we're here to observe them. And we're 00:07:09.920 --> 00:07:12.160 here to ask the questions. Exactly. And the author 00:07:12.160 --> 00:07:14.339 really drives this point home when he talks about 00:07:14.339 --> 00:07:16.899 the history of life on Earth. Right. It's not 00:07:16.899 --> 00:07:19.160 exactly a peaceful, nurturing picture, is it? 00:07:19.600 --> 00:07:22.899 No, not at all. I mean, think about it. 97 % 00:07:22.899 --> 00:07:27.079 to 98 %? of all life that ever existed is now 00:07:27.079 --> 00:07:29.839 extinct. That's a crazy stat. It's mind -boggling, 00:07:30.000 --> 00:07:33.220 right? So from a long -term perspective, Earth 00:07:33.220 --> 00:07:37.100 looks less like protected paradise and more like 00:07:37.100 --> 00:07:38.959 a, well, the author calls it a shooting gallery. 00:07:39.180 --> 00:07:41.360 A shooting gallery, wow. Yeah, because of natural 00:07:41.360 --> 00:07:43.879 disasters, asteroid impacts. It doesn't really 00:07:43.879 --> 00:07:46.959 paint this picture of like a deliberate intent 00:07:46.959 --> 00:07:50.560 to keep us safe. No, not at all. It really challenges 00:07:50.560 --> 00:07:54.100 that idea. Yeah, and this contrast in worldviews 00:07:54.100 --> 00:07:56.399 really comes out when you think about how different 00:07:56.399 --> 00:07:59.480 belief systems might react to a major threat 00:07:59.480 --> 00:08:02.100 like an asteroid on a collision course. Oh yeah, 00:08:02.220 --> 00:08:04.939 that's a great point. I mean, imagine that scenario. 00:08:05.079 --> 00:08:08.019 What do you do? The author says that people who 00:08:08.019 --> 00:08:11.740 reject science might turn to prayer, while those 00:08:11.740 --> 00:08:15.240 who embrace science would focus on finding solutions, 00:08:15.800 --> 00:08:18.120 like figuring out how to deflect the asteroid. 00:08:18.560 --> 00:08:21.459 Like practical, technological. Exactly. It highlights 00:08:21.459 --> 00:08:24.860 the potential of science to actually address 00:08:24.860 --> 00:08:27.439 these threats. To solve problems. Solve real 00:08:27.439 --> 00:08:29.800 -world problems. OK, I love this next part. OK. 00:08:29.930 --> 00:08:32.809 The coin flipping experiment. Oh, yeah. The coin 00:08:32.809 --> 00:08:35.529 flips. It's such a clever way to explain randomness. 00:08:35.730 --> 00:08:38.009 It is. It's a great analogy. So walk us through 00:08:38.009 --> 00:08:41.730 that. OK. So imagine you flip a coin a thousand 00:08:41.730 --> 00:08:46.350 times. OK. Statistically, it's very likely that 00:08:46.350 --> 00:08:49.889 someone will flip heads 10 times in a row. Right. 00:08:49.909 --> 00:08:52.009 Just by chance. Exactly. It's just probability. 00:08:52.730 --> 00:08:55.110 Now imagine a journalist comes along and focuses 00:08:55.110 --> 00:08:57.779 on that one person who got 10 heads in a row. 00:08:58.000 --> 00:09:00.200 The luckiest person in the world. Right. They 00:09:00.200 --> 00:09:03.059 must have some special power. But the thing is, 00:09:03.519 --> 00:09:07.000 within the context of all those flips, that event 00:09:07.000 --> 00:09:09.179 is actually pretty predictable. Yeah. It had 00:09:09.179 --> 00:09:11.480 to happen to someone. Exactly. So the point is 00:09:11.480 --> 00:09:14.120 we tend to look for meaning in random events. 00:09:14.159 --> 00:09:16.200 Right. We want there to be a reason. Yeah. But 00:09:16.200 --> 00:09:18.580 sometimes it's just chance. Just chance. Yeah. 00:09:18.789 --> 00:09:22.769 and in a universe as vast as ours, improbable 00:09:22.769 --> 00:09:24.929 things are gonna happen. It doesn't necessarily 00:09:24.929 --> 00:09:28.490 mean there's some grand design behind it. Does 00:09:28.490 --> 00:09:31.129 that make sense? It does, yeah. And this whole 00:09:31.129 --> 00:09:33.690 idea of the multiverse. Oh yeah, the multiverse. 00:09:33.889 --> 00:09:37.419 Really takes that concept of randomness. to a 00:09:37.419 --> 00:09:39.720 whole new level. It does. The multiverse, the 00:09:39.720 --> 00:09:43.879 idea that our universe is just one of many, each 00:09:43.879 --> 00:09:47.100 with its own laws of physics, its own initial 00:09:47.100 --> 00:09:50.159 conditions. It's still theoretical, but it's 00:09:50.159 --> 00:09:52.860 a mind -blowing concept. It is. And it really 00:09:52.860 --> 00:09:54.820 puts things into perspective. Right, like what 00:09:54.820 --> 00:09:57.539 we think is special or unique might just be like 00:09:57.539 --> 00:09:59.960 Tuesday in another universe. Yeah, exactly. It 00:09:59.960 --> 00:10:02.139 might be completely ordinary somewhere else. 00:10:02.840 --> 00:10:05.100 Whoa. So the multiverse, it's a really interesting 00:10:05.100 --> 00:10:07.879 way to think about randomness and probability. 00:10:08.480 --> 00:10:11.120 It really is. OK, the source also talks about 00:10:11.120 --> 00:10:15.379 how science has sometimes been accused of, like, 00:10:15.519 --> 00:10:18.320 hubris. Right. You know, of challenging humanity's 00:10:18.320 --> 00:10:20.759 sense of self -importance. Yeah, like we're not 00:10:20.759 --> 00:10:23.320 as special as we think we are. Exactly. Yeah. 00:10:23.320 --> 00:10:25.179 What are some key examples of that? Well, think 00:10:25.179 --> 00:10:29.279 about the shift from a geocentric view. OK. Where 00:10:29.279 --> 00:10:31.620 Earth was the center of everything. Right. Everything 00:10:31.620 --> 00:10:34.600 revolved around us. Exactly. To our current understanding 00:10:34.600 --> 00:10:37.919 that we're just one planet orbiting an ordinary 00:10:37.919 --> 00:10:41.100 star in a vast galaxy. Not so special anymore. 00:10:41.220 --> 00:10:44.220 Not so special, right. It was a huge change in 00:10:44.220 --> 00:10:46.539 perspective. It's like a cosmic demotion. Yeah, 00:10:46.539 --> 00:10:48.580 exactly. And that's just one example. Right, 00:10:48.580 --> 00:10:50.340 right. And then there's this whole thing about 00:10:50.340 --> 00:10:53.379 how we define intelligence. Oh yeah, that's a 00:10:53.379 --> 00:10:55.440 big one. Especially as we're looking for life 00:10:55.440 --> 00:10:57.960 beyond Earth. Right, because we tend to define 00:10:57.960 --> 00:11:00.639 intelligence. Based on our own abilities. Right, 00:11:00.799 --> 00:11:04.000 like how good are you at math? Exactly. Language, 00:11:04.139 --> 00:11:08.220 technology, abstract thought. But what if those 00:11:08.220 --> 00:11:10.480 aren't the only ways to be intelligent? Okay, 00:11:10.580 --> 00:11:12.460 I see what you're saying. The author points out 00:11:12.460 --> 00:11:15.320 that the genetic difference between humans and 00:11:15.320 --> 00:11:17.740 chimpanzees is relatively small. Right, like 00:11:17.740 --> 00:11:20.659 we're pretty closely related. Yeah, so the question 00:11:20.659 --> 00:11:24.070 is... is the difference in our intelligence also 00:11:24.070 --> 00:11:26.350 proportionally small? That's a good question. 00:11:26.470 --> 00:11:28.830 Right. And then he throws out this thought experiment. 00:11:29.009 --> 00:11:33.490 OK. What if there's a species out there that's 00:11:33.490 --> 00:11:36.129 just slightly more intelligent than us? Would 00:11:36.129 --> 00:11:39.610 they even recognize our intelligence? Or would 00:11:39.610 --> 00:11:42.850 we just seem like clever animals to them? That's 00:11:42.850 --> 00:11:45.169 kind of humbling. It is. And the author also 00:11:45.169 --> 00:11:47.049 points out that we have trouble communicating 00:11:47.049 --> 00:11:49.470 with other intelligent species right here on 00:11:49.470 --> 00:11:51.629 Earth. Right, like dolphins or... Yeah, even 00:11:51.629 --> 00:11:53.929 chimpanzees who are so closely related to us, 00:11:53.929 --> 00:11:56.210 if we can't even communicate with them effectively. 00:11:56.269 --> 00:11:58.750 Right. How are we supposed to communicate with 00:11:58.750 --> 00:12:00.870 aliens? Yeah, it really makes you think about 00:12:00.870 --> 00:12:04.009 what we even mean by intelligence. Exactly. And 00:12:04.009 --> 00:12:06.830 how limited our perspective might be. Totally. 00:12:06.929 --> 00:12:10.149 Okay, I gotta say, the ending of this deep dive 00:12:10.149 --> 00:12:14.789 really got to me. Okay. The author calls the 00:12:14.789 --> 00:12:18.289 realization that we're made of stardust the greatest 00:12:18.289 --> 00:12:21.190 gift of modern astrophysics. I love that part. 00:12:21.350 --> 00:12:24.190 Me too. It's such a beautiful and profound thought. 00:12:24.230 --> 00:12:27.590 It is. It's this amazing convergence of science 00:12:27.590 --> 00:12:31.090 and a sense of wonder knowing that the elements 00:12:31.090 --> 00:12:34.350 that make up our bodies, everything around us, 00:12:34.809 --> 00:12:38.210 were forged in the hearts of stars. It gives 00:12:38.210 --> 00:12:41.519 you this incredible connection to the universe. 00:12:41.740 --> 00:12:44.019 But like, we're not separate from it. Exactly. 00:12:44.259 --> 00:12:46.440 The universe isn't out there, it's in us. It's 00:12:46.440 --> 00:12:48.259 a part of us. It's a part of who we are. Wow. 00:12:48.360 --> 00:12:51.580 And the author talks about feeling big, because 00:12:51.580 --> 00:12:53.620 we're made of the same stuff as stars. Yeah, 00:12:53.620 --> 00:12:56.100 like we're not just tiny specks. We're part of 00:12:56.100 --> 00:12:59.100 this grand cosmic story. Exactly. And he even 00:12:59.100 --> 00:13:01.519 brings up Carl Sagan. Oh, I love Carl Sagan. 00:13:01.620 --> 00:13:03.659 Me too. You know, Sagan said that when you're 00:13:03.659 --> 00:13:06.610 in love, you want to tell the world. Yeah. And 00:13:06.610 --> 00:13:09.250 I think that's how a lot of scientists feel about 00:13:09.250 --> 00:13:11.370 the universe. They're in awe of it. And they 00:13:11.370 --> 00:13:14.669 want to share that awe. Exactly. It's this urge 00:13:14.669 --> 00:13:18.110 to explore, to understand. To connect. To connect. 00:13:18.429 --> 00:13:21.529 Yeah. Right. So to sum up this incredible deep 00:13:21.529 --> 00:13:24.649 dive, we've explored these fundamental differences 00:13:24.649 --> 00:13:27.809 between objective scientific truth and personal 00:13:27.809 --> 00:13:31.129 religious belief. Right. We looked at how science 00:13:31.129 --> 00:13:35.370 emphasizes evidence. over subjective experience. 00:13:36.330 --> 00:13:39.330 Verifiable, repeatable evidence. Exactly. We 00:13:39.330 --> 00:13:42.029 talked about the idea of universal intent, the 00:13:42.029 --> 00:13:45.590 role of randomness, and ultimately our cosmic 00:13:45.590 --> 00:13:47.710 origins. Our connection to the stars. To the 00:13:47.710 --> 00:13:49.970 stars, yeah. It's a lot to think about. It is, 00:13:49.970 --> 00:13:51.610 and it leaves us with this final question for 00:13:51.610 --> 00:13:55.470 you. Okay, me. How does all of this understanding 00:13:55.470 --> 00:13:58.549 of science, of the universe, how does it shape 00:13:58.549 --> 00:14:01.149 your own perspective on belief? That's a great 00:14:01.149 --> 00:14:04.480 question. On the search for meaning. Yeah, what 00:14:04.480 --> 00:14:07.000 does it mean to be made of stardust? To be a 00:14:07.000 --> 00:14:09.500 part of this vast cosmos. It's something worth 00:14:09.500 --> 00:14:12.200 pondering, for sure. Definitely. Alright, that's 00:14:12.200 --> 00:14:14.080 all the time we have for today. Wow, that were 00:14:14.080 --> 00:14:16.740 by facts! I know, right? But the conversation 00:14:16.740 --> 00:14:19.659 doesn't have to end here. Keep thinking, keep 00:14:19.659 --> 00:14:22.960 exploring. Keep diving deep, everybody. And until 00:14:22.960 --> 00:14:25.039 next time, stay curious.