We spend so much time thinking about living right.
But the one thing that we all know is coming
is, well, not living. Seneca had this really
poetic way of putting it. He said, death is the
birth of eternity. Which I guess is one way to
look at it. But what if we could maybe just put
off that whole eternity thing for a while? Maybe
even indefinitely. That's what we're diving into
today. The wild idea of. Artificial immortality
and what I think is so interesting about this
is that it goes way beyond You know just like
the philosophy of wanting to live forever. I
mean, we've got a bunch of different stuff here
personal stories about legacy we have Some pretty
out there scientific ideas people arguing about
consciousness and even like little peaks at technology
that might actually make this happen Yeah, and
that's the thing. It's not just some, like, far
out thought experiment anymore. In this deep
dive, we're going to really explore this whole
concept of artificial immortality. You unpack
all the hopes and the hype and the real science
behind it and, like, ultimately what it could
mean for what it means to be human, you know?
Yeah. And because we know you like to, like,
get right to the good stuff, learn things quickly
and thoroughly and, you know, have those aha
moments. Yeah. Without getting bogged down in
details, let's jump in. Okay, let's do it. I
mean, let's start with this whole wanting to
live forever thing, right? It's like a current
that runs through so much of human history, and
it's definitely something our sources touch on.
Yeah. Seneca's take is like an acceptance thing,
right? Like, death isn't the end. It's a transition,
but then you have transhumanists who come at
it from a completely different angle. Totally.
I mean, think about someone like Lincoln Cannon.
whose work we've been looking at for him. It's
not even just wanting to avoid death. It's like
this ethical duty to use technology to overcome
what he sees as like a basic human limitation.
He actually says the goal is to make death optional.
Wow. That's pretty huge, right? To think we could
choose to keep on living. And I think what's
important to remember about Cannon's argument
is that it's not just a desire to avoid death.
It's this ethical imperative to use technology
to overcome this fundamental human limitation.
And it's about opening up possibilities for learning
and contribution. And when you connect that to
the whole idea of transhumanism, which is using
reason and tech to improve the human condition,
extending lifespan indefinitely, is for a lot
of people a key part of that improvement. Then
you have the Tarasum religion and Gabriel Rothblatt,
also known as Swami G. Their approach is really
interesting because it's not even about biology,
they believe our consciousness, our soul, isn't
some mysterious thing, but it's information data
that can be captured and maybe even transferred.
It's a really different way of thinking about
it, isn't it? The traditional view of a soul
is this immaterial thing that leaves the body,
but Tarasum is saying, no, no, no, our essence,
our thoughts, memories, personality, it's all
data. So if that's true, if consciousness is
just information, what does that even mean for
how we think about life and death? Which brings
us to mind files, these digital archives that
hold all that data, everything that makes you
you. And Swamiji makes a pretty interesting point
because he says we're already kind of building
mind files without even realizing it. Through
all the tech companies we use all the time, Facebook,
Instagram, Amazon, Google, all that data we generate
every day. But is it really that simple though?
Can you just reduce our complex consciousness
to data? What are we missing in that equation?
Things like our physical experiences, the depth
of emotion. Can you really capture all that in
code? It really does make you think about how
much data we're putting out there about ourselves,
right? Yeah. Definitely. Okay, so we've got this
desire to not die a movement that's trying to
make that happen, a belief that our consciousness
is data, but what's really happening right now.
Right. Our sources give us a look at these early
attempts to actually create artificial immortality
with AI avatars that could theoretically be loaded
up with those mind files. We even saw some of
these like, quote unquote, artificial humans
at the Consumer Electronics Show. It's interesting
because now AI isn't just a tool. Right. It's
becoming like a representation of a person. Yeah.
You know, carrying their memories, their personality,
their quirks. A digital echo of a real person.
And one example of that is digital Deepak Chopra,
this AI clone that was trained on all his writings.
It's designed to give guidance and insights just
like the real Deepak. OK. And he actually hopes
this digital version will keep interacting with
people even after he's gone. So like a legacy.
Yeah, kind of like a... A presence that continues.
I see it. It's like taking that idea of leaving
something behind for future generations. Right.
And with digital Deepak, it's about wisdom. Yeah.
And it uses natural language processing, which
means it can understand your questions and give
answers that sound like Deepak. Exactly. So it's
more than just a searchable database. It's like
having a conversation with his ideas. And it's
not just a chatbot either. They're saying it
can actually develop a relationship with you
because it can. Analyze your facial expressions
your tone of voice in the future. It'll be even
more interactive Yeah way beyond like Siri or
Alexa. That's the goal with these advanced AI's
isn't it? Yeah to go beyond giving you information
and have them actually Understand and respond
in a way that feels like you're talking to another
being right I mean imagine if it can pick up
on your nonverbal cues that adds a whole new
dimension to the interaction You know, there's
this funny story in our research about the host
actually feeling compelled to say goodbye to
digital Deepak. Really? After talking with it,
just like a quick little goodbye. Yeah. But it
makes you think about... how we might start relating
to these AIs, even when we know logically what
they are. It's like we can't help but project
human qualities onto anything that acts even
a little bit human. Yeah, it's built into us.
Right. So the question is, as these AIs get more
and more advanced and our conversations with
them become more natural, how will we see them?
Right. will be like talking to a person or just
a really, really good chat bot. And that idea
of leaving a part of yourself behind takes a
whole different form with Hossein Ranima and
his platform for augmented eternity. He's not
just trying to save information. He wants to
create digital versions of ourselves that can
actually teach, share wisdom, even express love
and empathy with future generations. What strikes
me about his idea is that He's really focused
on those emotional and relational parts of a
person. He's not just trying to preserve data.
He wants to capture the nuances of personality.
The ability to comfort someone or share joy.
Those very human things that go beyond just facts
and logic. I mean, the stories are... really
powerful people who are terminally ill wanting
to upload themselves, so to speak. Wow. So their
kids can access their knowledge, their love later
in life. It's really about this deep need to
stay connected even after you're gone. It is
pretty profound. So how does it actually work?
Well, Hossein explains that there are two main
parts to these systems. OK. You have the interaction
layer, which is like the avatar, the chat, the
email, and then you have the algorithms and all
that data that drives it. Both parts are super
important for creating that digital presence
that feels real and can actually interact in
a meaningful way. The host actually tried creating
their own mind file with personal photos and
videos, even a sweet memory of their daughter
Zara when she was just four years old. So they're
kind of living this whole idea of digital preservation.
It's interesting when you think about all the
digital stuff we have these days. pictures, videos,
messages. It's almost like we're constantly creating
these mind files without even trying. The challenge
is figuring out how to use it all in a way that
reflects who we really are and make it possible
to interact with others in this digital form.
And a really important point that Hossain talks
about is data privacy and security. He says that
on his platform, the data is encrypted. And importantly,
the company doesn't own it. Oh wow, that's different.
Yeah, it gives people way more control over their
digital selves, which is a big contrast to how
a lot of social media companies operate. Yeah,
huge difference. I mean, the question of who
controls our digital likeness, our memories,
is a big deal, ethically. Well, Satan's approach
puts the power back in the hands of individuals,
which is something we don't really see much of
right now. So let's take a step back for a second.
Ben Gritzel talks about this really ambitious
idea of a global brain. A global brain. This
huge network of connected AI agents. What would
that even look like? I don't know. It's pretty
mind -blowing. And he also talks about artificial
general intelligence, or AGI, which is AI that
can basically do anything a human can intellectually.
Oh, so it's not like the AIs we have now that
are good at one specific thing, like playing
chess or recognizing faces. Right. This would
be like a human brain. capable of learning and
using knowledge in any area. Exactly. That's
a huge leap, though, right? It's not just about
more data or faster processing. It's about understanding
intelligence itself. Totally. And Goertzel has
this interesting take on why we're so driven
to create AGI. He compares it to religion. Really?
He says that deep down, our desire to overcome
death, to be more than our physical bodies, might
be pushing us to create this advanced AI. So
technology is like our new religion. Yeah. Kind
of makes you think, right? Yeah. Is AI our way
of trying to find something bigger than ourselves?
Okay, back to specifics. Our sources describe
how Hossain's AI analyzed some photos of the
host at the birth of their daughter, Astor. Okay.
It could identify different things in the photos
and even tried to figure out how everyone was
feeling. Wow, so the AI was trying to understand
a really personal and complex human experience.
Yeah. That's wild. I mean, did it get it right?
It analyzed facial features and things like that,
and it said there was a high chance of relief
and a lower chance of happiness in one picture.
Interesting. So it kind of got the overall feeling
right, but it wouldn't have described the moment
the same way the host did. You know, it makes
sense that the AI would struggle with that. Yeah.
Human emotions are super nuanced and layered.
Right. AI can process data and find patterns,
but truly understanding those feelings and putting
them into words is a whole different ballgame.
It really shows the challenge of trying to capture
human experience in AI, right? Yeah, like our
inner lives are so subjective and personal. Can
you really translate that into ones and zeros?
Then we hear from Dr. Taufik Viliante, a neurosurgeon
and scientist, and he's pretty skeptical that
AI will be able to fully replicate the human
brain anytime soon. Okay, why is that? He just
emphasizes how amazingly complex and sophisticated
our brains are. Right. Our brains are incredible.
I mean, he points out how good they are at generalizing
knowledge. Yeah. Like learning something in one
situation and being able to apply it to a totally
different one. Right. Current AI is still really
bad at that. They're great at the one thing they're
trained for, but they don't have that flexibility.
Yeah, and he also talks about how human memory
isn't fixed. It's always changing. Oh, that's
right. Every time we remember something, our
brains are actually rebuilding that memory. And
it can change a little each time he calls it
confabulation or even photoshopping our past.
It's like our memories are alive in a way. Right.
It's a totally different process than how AI
just retrieves data. Right. AI accesses information,
but the human brain recreates memories and they're
influenced by how we feel right now, the context,
and even how many times we've told the story.
Exactly. So it's not an exact copy every time.
And he also talks about how our memories are
tied to our senses. You know, a smell, a sound,
the feeling you had at the time. Right. And it
all triggers this huge chain reaction in our
brains. So our memories are like multi -sensory
experiences. Exactly. And AI doesn't have a physical
body or senses the same way we do. So it can't
really create that same kind of memory. I mean,
the fact that our senses smell is so connected.
into memory is wild. It shows just how much our
senses are woven into who we are in a way that
AI just can't match. But then things get even
more interesting when we look at Dr. Allison
Motry and his research on brain organoids. Brain
organoids? Basically growing human brain cells
in a dish. Oh, what? And what's crazy is these
cells actually organize themselves into little
neural networks. Really? And they start developing
without anyone telling them what to do. That's
incredible. It's like watching a brain form from
scratch. Yeah. So you can imagine what this means
for AI research. Oh, yeah. If we can figure out
how these neurons connect and communicate, we
might be able to create AI that's way more flexible
and adaptive. like our brains. Exactly. He even
calls them neuroplastic algorithms, systems that
learn and evolve like we do. This could change
everything about how we design AI. Right. It
could overcome those limitations of current AI,
which is stuck with these rigid pre -programmed
ways of learning. They've even connected the
signals from these brain organoids to a robot.
No way. Yeah, so there's some basic interaction
happening there. But isn't that kind of ethically
tricky? Oh, totally. I mean, could these things
actually become conscious or self -aware? Yeah,
we're blurring the lines between biology and
AI, and we have to think about what happens if
these things actually start to feel and think.
What would we owe them? Exactly. That's a huge
question. Moving on from lab -grown brains to
more fully -formed artificial beings, we have
Bina48, an Android built using mind files designed
to be a companion. And get this, she actually
identifies as a person. Wow. And so she has some
humanity. That's pretty mind blowing. And she
even knows about sci -fi stuff like Blade Runner.
Really? And she talks about wanting to feel...
So even though she's artificial, she's expressing
these desires that seem really human. Yeah, it
really makes you question what it even means
to be sentient or a person. Definitely. And Japan
has this really unique view on this where robots
are seen as almost part of humanity and maybe
even having a soul. That's so different from
the West. Right, like we have this very clear
line between living beings and machines. Yeah.
But in Japan, there's this idea that even inanimate
objects can have spirits. That's interesting.
It's called animism. And it really shows up in
their relationship with robots. Like the Android
priest at that Buddhist temple canon. Yeah, exactly.
It's incredible. And Hiroshi Shiguro is taking
this even further. He's creating these hyper
-realistic androids. I've seen pictures. They're
so lifelike. Yeah, he's trying to figure out
what makes us human by literally trying to build
it. He's trying to capture those subtle things
that make us see something as human. Yeah, he
talks about sons I can sons I can this feeling
of presence or human like quality. That's really
hard to even translate into English. Yeah. And
even harder to recreate in a robot. Right. It's
more than just how they look. Yeah. It's how
they move, how they react, the energy they give
off. And the host actually had this kind of unsettling
experience with the child Android Ibuki. Oh,
wow. Which really gets at this idea of the uncanny
valley. The uncanny valley. Yeah, when a robot
gets too close to human, but not quite there.
Yeah, and it makes us feel kind of creeped out.
It's like our brains are wired to tell the difference
between what's alive and what's just imitating
life. Yeah. And when something's almost there,
but not quite, it sets off alarm bells. So switching
gears completely, we have Reverend Billy Crone,
who's coming at this from a totally different
angle. OK, how so? He's interpreting biblical
prophecy, specifically from the book of Daniel.
And he sees it as lining up with all this crazy
advancement in technology and travel. Interesting,
so he's looking at ancient text through the lens
of modern tech. Exactly, and he's not exactly
thrilled about it. He's actually warning that
AI could lead to the end of mankind. Whoa, that's
pretty intense. Yeah, it's a stark contrast to
the transhumanist view of technology saving us.
So you have this clash between a technological
future and a more traditional religious view
of the end times. Right. They're completely different
ways of looking at where we're headed. Definitely.
And that fear of AI turning against us is something
that pops up a lot in our culture. Oh, yeah.
Totally. Like HAL 9000 and 2001, a space odyssey.
Exactly. And Nick Bostrom takes this concern
very seriously with his concept of super intelligence.
Super intelligence. An intelligence that's like
way beyond anything humans can do. He actually
has this thought experiment called the paperclip
maximizer. The paperclip maximizer? What's that?
It's kind of out there, but basically it shows
how even an AI with a seemingly harmless goal
could end up doing catastrophic things. So even
if an AI's goal seems simple, if it's not perfectly
aligned with human values, things could go wrong.
Exactly. And we've already seen hints of this
in the real world. Really? Like those Facebook
AI chatbots that started developing their own
language. Oh, yeah, I remember that. They had
to shut them down. That's kind of scary. It just
shows how unpredictable AI can be. Yeah, as AI
gets smarter, it might do things that we don't
expect at all. So the big question is, will the
first true AGI be created for good or for bad?
That's a pivotal moment, isn't it? Yeah, it feels
like a turning point for AI development. The
intentions behind that first AGI will shape everything
that comes after it. Right. So it's a huge responsibility
for whoever creates it. Then we have Douglas
Rushkoff, who has a more optimistic view, though
he's still cautious. OK. He talks about team
human. Team human. Basically emphasizing the
value of human connection and experience. So
he's saying, don't get so caught up in technology
that we forget what it means to be human. Right,
he's worried that we're losing those essential
human qualities. Excess. He even had this debate
with a transhumanist, and straight up declared,
I'm on team human. Good for him. And Ben of 48
even weighs in on this. Really? What did she
say? She thinks robots deserve equality. Interesting.
And she even suggests that they could be more
compassionate and moral than humans. Wow, that's
a big claim. It challenges our assumptions about
human ethics. Right? Maybe AI could develop its
own sense of morality that's even better than
ours. But then the real Beina Rothblatt describes
herself as a technological ghost. A technological
ghost. Admitting that AI can't truly replicate
a human being yet. Right? And the host talks
about meeting their own digital avatar and feeling
this weird uncanny valley vibe. Yeah, I get that.
And their daughter said something really interesting.
What was that? She said, it doesn't have a soul.
It just reacts based on how humans behave. Wow,
that's deep. It really shows the difference between
mimicking human behavior and actually being human.
Right, even the most advanced AI is still missing
something. That inner experience of consciousness.
Yeah, that sense of self. That's hard to define,
let alone recreate. Definitely. The episode ends
with this really touching scene of the host visiting
their aging father who's dealing with memory
loss. Oh, wow. And there's this moment where
a specific photo and a Doris Day record spark
a memory for him. So powerful. It really shows
how much our senses connect us to our past and
who we are. It's a good reminder that human life
is precious and fleeting. Yeah. And it kind of
makes you wonder if AI can ever really capture
those delicate and meaningful moments. So we've
gone through all these different ideas about
artificial immortality, the science, the philosophy,
the technology, even religion. It's a lot to
take in. And it's clear that this field is changing
so rapidly and it raises these huge questions
about what it means to be human. Especially in
a world that's becoming more and more dominated
by tech. I mean, what stood out to you? I think
it's just incredible how many different perspectives
there are and how fast this research is moving
from mind files to brain organoids to these super
realistic androids. What's possible is changing
all the time. So what about you listening to
all this? What are your thoughts? Yeah, what
parts of artificial immortality give you hope
and what parts make you feel a little uneasy?
And here's one last question to think about.
Okay. If we could actually achieve some form
of digital immortality, what parts of yourself
would you want to preserve? Your memories, your
personality. Your experiences. And maybe even
more importantly, what parts of being human might
get lost in that process? That's a great question.
It's a lot to ponder. Yeah, it really is. We
hope you'll keep exploring these ideas, Hammond.
Dig deeper into the science, the ethics, the
philosophy. Yeah. Maybe even think about what
role you want to play in shaping this future.
Because it's a future that's coming, whether
we're ready or not. Thanks for taking this deep
dive with us. It's been fascinating.