WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:02.080 ever get that feeling. Like what we call reality 00:00:02.080 --> 00:00:06.019 is maybe a bit more bizarre than we usually think 00:00:06.019 --> 00:00:08.320 about. Like there's this whole other level of 00:00:08.320 --> 00:00:10.619 stuff going on right under our noses, right under 00:00:10.619 --> 00:00:13.099 what we normally see in here. Like kind of mind 00:00:13.099 --> 00:00:15.220 bending territory. That's exactly what we're 00:00:15.220 --> 00:00:18.039 all about here on the deep dive. And today we're 00:00:18.039 --> 00:00:21.480 going deep. really deep into some truly fascinating 00:00:21.480 --> 00:00:23.920 stuff that you, our listeners, sent our way. 00:00:24.280 --> 00:00:26.379 We're talking big, big questions about consciousness, 00:00:26.780 --> 00:00:28.539 how we perceive the world around us or think 00:00:28.539 --> 00:00:31.179 we perceive it, the whole slippery idea of free 00:00:31.179 --> 00:00:34.340 will, and the ever -changing world of AI, artificial 00:00:34.340 --> 00:00:36.439 intelligence. And all of this is coming from 00:00:36.439 --> 00:00:38.200 a document with a title that pretty much sums 00:00:38.200 --> 00:00:41.979 it up. Reality is stranger than you think. Consciousness, 00:00:42.119 --> 00:00:45.700 perception, free will, ai .pdf. And to help us 00:00:45.700 --> 00:00:49.159 navigate this seriously dense intellectual jungle, 00:00:49.380 --> 00:00:52.740 we are so excited to welcome Anu K. Harris. Anu 00:00:52.740 --> 00:00:54.399 Karak, you're the New York Times bestselling 00:00:54.399 --> 00:00:57.840 author of Conscious, a brief guide to the fundamental 00:00:57.840 --> 00:01:00.560 mystery of the mind. It's an amazing read, really 00:01:00.560 --> 00:01:02.820 clear and concise, but it makes you think, really 00:01:02.820 --> 00:01:05.739 think. And you're also the creator of the upcoming 00:01:05.739 --> 00:01:09.159 podcast documentary series Lights On, which dives 00:01:09.159 --> 00:01:11.840 into the bleeding edge of neuroscience, meditation, 00:01:11.959 --> 00:01:14.659 and the philosophy of mind. Anik, it is such 00:01:14.659 --> 00:01:16.219 a pleasure to have you with us for this deep 00:01:16.219 --> 00:01:18.140 dive. It's a pleasure to be here. Thanks for 00:01:18.140 --> 00:01:20.319 having me. We are just so excited to pick your 00:01:20.319 --> 00:01:22.859 brain about all these weird, strange, mind blowing 00:01:22.859 --> 00:01:25.040 aspects of consciousness and what they could 00:01:25.040 --> 00:01:27.540 mean for how we see ourselves and literally everything 00:01:27.540 --> 00:01:30.459 around us. So Anik, to kick things off, how about 00:01:30.459 --> 00:01:32.799 we start with a basic definition? When we talk 00:01:32.799 --> 00:01:34.879 about consciousness here, what exactly are we 00:01:34.879 --> 00:01:36.480 talking about? It's one of those words that can 00:01:36.480 --> 00:01:38.500 mean so many different things to different people. 00:01:38.730 --> 00:01:41.569 That is such a crucial first step. Right. So 00:01:41.569 --> 00:01:43.290 often when people hear the word consciousness, 00:01:43.409 --> 00:01:46.170 they automatically jump to complex thoughts, 00:01:46.650 --> 00:01:48.370 self -awareness, things like that. You know, 00:01:48.450 --> 00:01:50.390 things we typically associate with being human. 00:01:51.189 --> 00:01:53.010 But the way I think about it, the real heart 00:01:53.010 --> 00:01:55.709 of this whole mystery is something much more 00:01:55.709 --> 00:01:58.430 fundamental. It's about felt experience, that 00:01:58.430 --> 00:02:01.129 raw basic sense of what it's like to be to exist. 00:02:01.349 --> 00:02:04.290 Felt experience. OK, I like that. Let's dig a 00:02:04.290 --> 00:02:05.790 little deeper into what that actually means. 00:02:06.010 --> 00:02:08.810 sure think about a bee right just a bee bumping 00:02:08.810 --> 00:02:11.389 into a flower or picture a worm moving through 00:02:11.389 --> 00:02:13.789 the soil they probably have some kind of very 00:02:13.789 --> 00:02:16.610 basic level of consciousness even if it's just 00:02:16.610 --> 00:02:19.669 a simple feeling of pressure When a simple organism 00:02:19.669 --> 00:02:21.590 like that moves towards something that's going 00:02:21.590 --> 00:02:24.349 to nourish it, there's probably some kind of 00:02:24.349 --> 00:02:26.490 fundamental feeling of hunger that's motivating 00:02:26.490 --> 00:02:29.990 that action. Even something as small as the impulse 00:02:29.990 --> 00:02:32.610 to move away from danger that could be a super 00:02:32.610 --> 00:02:35.710 rudimentary form of felt experience. Neuroscientists 00:02:35.710 --> 00:02:38.870 are still trying to figure out just how far consciousness 00:02:38.870 --> 00:02:41.830 extends in these simpler systems. But this basic 00:02:41.830 --> 00:02:44.050 sense of what it's like to be that organism, 00:02:44.069 --> 00:02:45.810 that's what I'm talking about when I say consciousness 00:02:45.810 --> 00:02:49.039 at its core, it's the sheer fact of having an 00:02:49.039 --> 00:02:51.280 experience, any kind of experience. It's the 00:02:51.280 --> 00:02:53.099 difference between, say, processing light waves 00:02:53.099 --> 00:02:55.259 bouncing off this microphone and actually seeing 00:02:55.259 --> 00:02:56.939 it. Like, I'm not just processing those light 00:02:56.939 --> 00:02:59.840 waves. I'm seeing its color, its shape. I'm having 00:02:59.840 --> 00:03:02.460 this internal subjective experience of it. And 00:03:02.460 --> 00:03:04.780 that feels completely different from how a computer 00:03:04.780 --> 00:03:08.080 might analyze the same visual data. Gotcha. So 00:03:08.080 --> 00:03:11.939 when we talk about sentience, Awareness. Are 00:03:11.939 --> 00:03:14.060 we basically using those terms interchangeably 00:03:14.060 --> 00:03:17.240 with this idea of felt experience for our conversation 00:03:17.240 --> 00:03:19.639 here? Yeah, for our purposes today, think of 00:03:19.639 --> 00:03:22.120 sentience, awareness, felt experience. They're 00:03:22.120 --> 00:03:24.900 all getting at the same basic capacity, that 00:03:24.900 --> 00:03:27.080 fundamental ability to have any kind of sensation, 00:03:27.379 --> 00:03:29.479 that possibility of subjective experience. You 00:03:29.479 --> 00:03:31.180 know, this makes me think of that famous thought 00:03:31.180 --> 00:03:33.939 experiment. What is it like to be a bat? Oh, 00:03:33.939 --> 00:03:35.680 absolutely. Yeah, it's from the philosopher Thomas 00:03:35.680 --> 00:03:39.259 Nagel, and it really nails this idea of how personal, 00:03:39.439 --> 00:03:42.659 how subjective, conscious experience truly is. 00:03:43.039 --> 00:03:45.539 A bat experiences the world through sonar. It's 00:03:45.539 --> 00:03:47.319 a sense that's so incredibly different from our 00:03:47.319 --> 00:03:50.259 own vision -heavy experience. So we can try to 00:03:50.259 --> 00:03:52.139 intellectually understand what it might feel 00:03:52.139 --> 00:03:54.800 like to experience the world through echolocation, 00:03:54.919 --> 00:03:57.400 through sound, but we can never truly know it 00:03:57.400 --> 00:03:59.300 in the same way a bat does. And there's this 00:03:59.300 --> 00:04:02.199 great German word umwelt, which captures this 00:04:02.199 --> 00:04:04.900 idea of each organism's unique sensory world. 00:04:05.539 --> 00:04:09.439 Our human welt is totally different from a bat's 00:04:09.439 --> 00:04:11.919 welt, which is different from, say, a dog's welt, 00:04:12.199 --> 00:04:14.419 where smell is so dominant. Each creature is 00:04:14.419 --> 00:04:16.259 basically living in its own little subjective 00:04:16.259 --> 00:04:18.759 sensory reality. OK, so we're talking about this 00:04:18.759 --> 00:04:21.600 fundamental subjective felt experience. Now, 00:04:21.600 --> 00:04:23.360 this naturally leads us to what's often called 00:04:23.360 --> 00:04:25.379 the hard problem of consciousness. What makes 00:04:25.379 --> 00:04:28.399 this so, well, so hard? Right. The philosopher 00:04:28.399 --> 00:04:31.060 David Chalmers coined that term, the hard problem. 00:04:31.240 --> 00:04:33.439 though people have been wrestling with this underlying 00:04:33.439 --> 00:04:37.240 puzzle for centuries. Chalmers contrasts it with 00:04:37.240 --> 00:04:41.199 what he calls the easy problems. Neuroscience 00:04:41.199 --> 00:04:43.240 now, I'm not saying these easy problems are actually 00:04:43.240 --> 00:04:45.540 easy. They're incredibly complex Yeah, but they're 00:04:45.540 --> 00:04:48.459 all about figuring out which brain states consistently 00:04:48.459 --> 00:04:51.439 happen when someone is having a particular conscious 00:04:51.439 --> 00:04:54.560 experience what scientists call the neural correlates 00:04:54.560 --> 00:04:57.079 of consciousness and we're making progress and 00:04:57.079 --> 00:04:59.100 finding these connections between What's going 00:04:59.100 --> 00:05:01.060 on in the brain and what people are experiencing? 00:05:01.579 --> 00:05:04.139 But the hard problem it's completely different 00:05:04.139 --> 00:05:07.180 beast It asks why is there any felt experience 00:05:07.180 --> 00:05:09.300 at all associated with what's happening in the 00:05:09.300 --> 00:05:11.579 brain? or with any kind of activity for that 00:05:11.579 --> 00:05:14.160 matter. Why aren't we just incredibly complex 00:05:14.160 --> 00:05:17.480 biological machines processing information without 00:05:17.480 --> 00:05:19.180 any inner life, without any feeling, without 00:05:19.180 --> 00:05:21.600 any experience whatsoever? Why is there this 00:05:21.600 --> 00:05:23.959 movie playing in our heads? It really does cut 00:05:23.959 --> 00:05:26.079 right to the chase, doesn't it? Why this inner 00:05:26.079 --> 00:05:29.300 world? Why this feeling of experience? Exactly. 00:05:29.420 --> 00:05:32.620 And for some people, that mystery is just immediately, 00:05:32.800 --> 00:05:35.980 obviously, there. But for others, It takes a 00:05:35.980 --> 00:05:38.279 little more effort to grasp what the puzzle even 00:05:38.279 --> 00:05:41.319 is. But when you start comparing our human experience 00:05:41.319 --> 00:05:45.660 to other systems, AI, plants, even insects, the 00:05:45.660 --> 00:05:48.819 question really starts to take shape. Intuitively, 00:05:49.040 --> 00:05:50.920 We suspect that these other systems, even though 00:05:50.920 --> 00:05:52.560 they might have some really complex behaviors, 00:05:53.060 --> 00:05:55.379 might not actually have this inner felt experience. 00:05:55.740 --> 00:05:57.920 Like, a sophisticated AI might be able to understand 00:05:57.920 --> 00:05:59.879 language, write stories, even compose music, 00:06:00.180 --> 00:06:02.139 but do we really think it feels anything while 00:06:02.139 --> 00:06:04.720 it's doing that? It seems natural to assume that 00:06:04.720 --> 00:06:07.560 humans, and maybe other mammals, do have this 00:06:07.560 --> 00:06:10.009 inner life. But figuring out the fundamental 00:06:10.009 --> 00:06:11.910 difference that explains why some processing 00:06:11.910 --> 00:06:14.149 is accompanied by experience and other processing 00:06:14.149 --> 00:06:16.990 isn't, that's the essence of the hard problem. 00:06:17.410 --> 00:06:19.329 The big takeaway here is that science can explain 00:06:19.329 --> 00:06:22.110 how the brain works, how it processes information, 00:06:22.430 --> 00:06:24.529 but not why we have this subjective experience 00:06:24.529 --> 00:06:27.029 of it all. And it seems like science, in its 00:06:27.029 --> 00:06:29.990 purest form, with its focus on external observation, 00:06:30.410 --> 00:06:32.430 might just be inherently limited when it comes 00:06:32.430 --> 00:06:34.329 to tackling this, right? You're right on the 00:06:34.329 --> 00:06:37.519 money there. Science, and even just our everyday 00:06:37.519 --> 00:06:40.500 way of making sense of the world, relies on studying 00:06:40.500 --> 00:06:43.600 things from the outside in. We observe behavior. 00:06:44.120 --> 00:06:46.040 We look at physical properties. Now luckily, 00:06:46.379 --> 00:06:48.740 with other humans, we have this incredibly complex 00:06:48.740 --> 00:06:51.120 system of communication. We can talk to each 00:06:51.120 --> 00:06:53.319 other, share our experiences, and that gives 00:06:53.319 --> 00:06:56.180 us a pretty good, though imperfect, sense of 00:06:56.180 --> 00:06:59.060 each other's inner lives. Because we're similar 00:06:59.060 --> 00:07:01.180 enough, we have a common ground for understanding 00:07:01.180 --> 00:07:03.600 feelings. We have a shared language for it all. 00:07:03.920 --> 00:07:06.259 But at the end of the day, I can never directly 00:07:06.259 --> 00:07:08.560 experience your experience just like you can't 00:07:08.560 --> 00:07:10.980 directly experience mine. And this problem gets 00:07:10.980 --> 00:07:12.879 even harder when we think about organisms that 00:07:12.879 --> 00:07:15.180 are very different from us. Imagine trying to 00:07:15.180 --> 00:07:18.180 explain the feeling of seeing, of color, to someone 00:07:18.180 --> 00:07:21.019 who's been blind from birth. Analogies and metaphors 00:07:21.019 --> 00:07:23.399 can only take you so far. So this brings us to 00:07:23.399 --> 00:07:25.379 one of the fundamental questions that you explore 00:07:25.379 --> 00:07:28.120 in your book. Can we ever truly definitively 00:07:28.120 --> 00:07:30.100 prove from the outside, just by looking at something, 00:07:30.240 --> 00:07:32.439 that it has consciousness? Exactly, that's the 00:07:32.439 --> 00:07:34.040 first big question I wanted to tackle in the 00:07:34.040 --> 00:07:35.980 book and it's a question that really challenges 00:07:35.980 --> 00:07:39.579 our deepest intuitions about consciousness Because 00:07:39.579 --> 00:07:42.019 intuitively we feel like the answer is a big 00:07:42.019 --> 00:07:45.160 fat. Yes Especially when it comes to other humans 00:07:45.160 --> 00:07:48.139 and maybe other mammals But the reality is with 00:07:48.139 --> 00:07:50.819 our current scientific understanding particularly 00:07:50.819 --> 00:07:53.860 in neuroscience It's actually impossible to prove 00:07:53.860 --> 00:07:56.560 for sure as we've been talking about all we really 00:07:56.560 --> 00:07:59.459 have to go on is behavior things we can observe 00:07:59.459 --> 00:08:02.629 and communication if that's possible. But behavior 00:08:02.629 --> 00:08:05.329 alone is not a foolproof indicator. And you use 00:08:05.329 --> 00:08:07.129 the example of locked -in syndrome in the book, 00:08:07.269 --> 00:08:09.850 right? It's such a powerful example of how outward 00:08:09.850 --> 00:08:12.649 appearance and inner experience can be so different. 00:08:13.230 --> 00:08:15.410 Exactly. Locked -in syndrome, which is usually 00:08:15.410 --> 00:08:18.110 caused by damage to specific parts of the brain, 00:08:18.629 --> 00:08:21.569 it's this really strange condition where a person 00:08:21.569 --> 00:08:24.209 is completely paralyzed, completely unable to 00:08:24.209 --> 00:08:27.399 move, but their consciousness is completely intact. 00:08:28.040 --> 00:08:30.279 Now from the outside, someone in a locked -in 00:08:30.279 --> 00:08:32.539 state looks unconscious. They can't move, they 00:08:32.539 --> 00:08:35.059 can't communicate, but we know now that many, 00:08:35.159 --> 00:08:36.919 many of these individuals are having a full, 00:08:37.379 --> 00:08:40.120 rich, conscious experience. They can see, hear, 00:08:40.259 --> 00:08:42.179 think, feel everything happening around them, 00:08:42.440 --> 00:08:44.320 but they just have no way to express it. This 00:08:44.320 --> 00:08:46.720 just shows how big the gap can be between how 00:08:46.720 --> 00:08:48.840 something looks on the outside and what's actually 00:08:48.840 --> 00:08:51.720 going on inside. subjectively. And it really 00:08:51.720 --> 00:08:54.220 emphasizes how hard it is to determine for sure 00:08:54.220 --> 00:08:56.019 whether something is conscious just by looking 00:08:56.019 --> 00:08:58.240 at it from the outside. That's a really heavy, 00:08:58.480 --> 00:09:00.740 thought -provoking example for sure. So what's 00:09:00.740 --> 00:09:03.340 the second key question you explore? The second 00:09:03.340 --> 00:09:05.500 question, it's closely related to the first. 00:09:05.940 --> 00:09:07.639 And it kind of looks at our intuitions from a 00:09:07.639 --> 00:09:10.500 slightly different angle, it asks. Is consciousness 00:09:10.500 --> 00:09:13.639 actually doing anything? Like is it really the 00:09:13.639 --> 00:09:15.679 thing that's driving our behavior like we feel 00:09:15.679 --> 00:09:18.740 so strongly that it is is this felt experience 00:09:18.740 --> 00:09:21.559 this inner world is it the thing that's actually 00:09:21.559 --> 00:09:25.039 causing us to act in the world and Again, our 00:09:25.039 --> 00:09:28.240 first gut level reaction is probably a resounding. 00:09:28.360 --> 00:09:31.620 Yes, you got it We feel so strongly that our 00:09:31.620 --> 00:09:33.740 thoughts our feelings our intentions that all 00:09:33.740 --> 00:09:36.000 comes from our conscious minds And that's what's 00:09:36.000 --> 00:09:38.379 causing us to do what we do But just like with 00:09:38.379 --> 00:09:40.519 the first question when we start to really dig 00:09:40.519 --> 00:09:43.539 into the evidence The support for this intuition 00:09:43.539 --> 00:09:46.100 isn't quite as rock -solid as we might think. 00:09:46.340 --> 00:09:47.879 I was thinking about that earlier, like just 00:09:47.879 --> 00:09:50.039 waking up and getting ready to have this conversation 00:09:50.039 --> 00:09:52.559 with you. It felt so clearly like it was my conscious 00:09:52.559 --> 00:09:54.440 intention to get ready that made me actually 00:09:54.440 --> 00:09:57.679 do it. Exactly. It feels almost impossible to 00:09:57.679 --> 00:09:59.559 imagine doing all those things without being 00:09:59.559 --> 00:10:02.360 aware of them, without consciously choosing to 00:10:02.360 --> 00:10:05.220 do them. But... There are areas of neuroscience 00:10:05.220 --> 00:10:07.259 that are really starting to challenge that assumption, 00:10:07.480 --> 00:10:09.179 that deep -seated intuition. Let's take fear, 00:10:09.179 --> 00:10:12.259 for example. Fear, yeah, it's a pretty primal 00:10:12.259 --> 00:10:14.519 emotion, one that seems to just take over and 00:10:14.519 --> 00:10:16.259 dictate what we do, especially in those fight 00:10:16.259 --> 00:10:18.419 -or -flight situations. Right, totally. If you 00:10:18.419 --> 00:10:20.139 suddenly come across something dangerous, that 00:10:20.139 --> 00:10:21.960 feeling of fear, it seems like that's the thing 00:10:21.960 --> 00:10:24.279 that triggers that whole fight -or -flight response. 00:10:24.799 --> 00:10:27.000 But when you look at what's going on in the brain 00:10:27.000 --> 00:10:30.059 at a deeper level, the conscious experience of 00:10:30.059 --> 00:10:32.240 fear is actually one of the last things to happen. 00:10:32.399 --> 00:10:35.139 Our bodies are actually reacting to potential 00:10:35.139 --> 00:10:38.480 threats way way faster. We're talking 300 to 00:10:38.480 --> 00:10:40.820 500 milliseconds That's less than a half a second 00:10:40.820 --> 00:10:43.340 Our nervous system is already detecting danger 00:10:43.340 --> 00:10:46.000 and starting that whole physical response before 00:10:46.000 --> 00:10:49.360 we even consciously register the feeling of fear 00:10:49.549 --> 00:10:52.269 There's a neuroscientist, David Eagleman, who 00:10:52.269 --> 00:10:54.090 talks about this idea that we're actually living 00:10:54.090 --> 00:10:56.009 slightly in the past because of all the time 00:10:56.009 --> 00:10:58.450 it takes for the brain to process sensory information 00:10:58.450 --> 00:11:01.269 and weave it all together. He talks about these 00:11:01.269 --> 00:11:03.690 things called binding processes. Binding processes, 00:11:03.769 --> 00:11:06.889 what are those? So binding processes, they're 00:11:06.889 --> 00:11:08.809 basically how the brain takes all this sensory 00:11:08.809 --> 00:11:12.509 information, sight, sound, touch, all that, and 00:11:12.509 --> 00:11:15.230 integrates it all into a single coherent experience. 00:11:15.919 --> 00:11:18.399 But the thing is, different types of sensory 00:11:18.399 --> 00:11:20.519 information, they travel at different speeds 00:11:20.519 --> 00:11:22.580 and take different amounts of time to process. 00:11:23.100 --> 00:11:25.220 So the brain has to do all this behind -the -scenes 00:11:25.220 --> 00:11:28.019 work to bind everything together so we experience 00:11:28.019 --> 00:11:30.909 that all is happening simultaneously. Eagleman 00:11:30.909 --> 00:11:33.110 gives this great example of the starting blocks 00:11:33.110 --> 00:11:35.610 at a race. Like, if you're standing at the starting 00:11:35.610 --> 00:11:37.990 blocks and you hear the starting pistol, your 00:11:37.990 --> 00:11:40.990 brain actually processes that sound faster than 00:11:40.990 --> 00:11:42.769 it processes the light from the flash of the 00:11:42.769 --> 00:11:44.570 gun. So even though they happen at the same time, 00:11:44.590 --> 00:11:46.990 we actually hear it before we see it. Exactly. 00:11:47.870 --> 00:11:50.899 And because sound gets processed faster, We actually 00:11:50.899 --> 00:11:54.299 react faster to sounds than we do to visual cues. 00:11:54.820 --> 00:11:56.919 This makes sense from an evolutionary perspective, 00:11:57.240 --> 00:11:59.460 too. It's more important to react quickly to 00:11:59.460 --> 00:12:01.679 a sudden rustle in the bushes, which could be 00:12:01.679 --> 00:12:04.059 a predator, than it is to react quickly to seeing 00:12:04.059 --> 00:12:07.080 something move. So all this is happening unconsciously, 00:12:07.080 --> 00:12:09.080 milliseconds before we even have the conscious 00:12:09.080 --> 00:12:11.740 experience of what's going on. Like, think about 00:12:11.740 --> 00:12:13.960 playing tennis. You see the ball, you feel the 00:12:13.960 --> 00:12:16.259 racket hit it, you hear the sound of the impact, 00:12:16.399 --> 00:12:18.600 all seemingly at the same time. But in reality, 00:12:18.940 --> 00:12:21.029 those different sensory inputs are all arriving 00:12:21.029 --> 00:12:23.169 at your brain at slightly different times, and 00:12:23.169 --> 00:12:25.330 your brain is binding them together to give you 00:12:25.330 --> 00:12:27.509 this seamless experience of the present moment. 00:12:27.730 --> 00:12:29.090 So what you're saying is that our bodies are 00:12:29.090 --> 00:12:32.309 already reacting, making decisions even, before 00:12:32.309 --> 00:12:34.789 our conscious mind even catches up. Pretty much, 00:12:34.909 --> 00:12:36.730 yeah. It's kind of like our conscious experience 00:12:36.730 --> 00:12:38.850 is always playing catch -up, always slightly 00:12:38.850 --> 00:12:40.429 behind the curve of what's already happening 00:12:40.429 --> 00:12:43.029 in our bodies. That's a pretty wild realization, 00:12:43.149 --> 00:12:46.190 isn't it? How has that understanding, how has 00:12:46.190 --> 00:12:48.289 knowing this, how has it changed how you operate? 00:12:48.610 --> 00:12:50.269 It's kind of unsettling, you know, realizing 00:12:50.269 --> 00:12:52.870 that your experience is the last to know, as 00:12:52.870 --> 00:12:55.850 you put it earlier. It can definitely be destabilizing. 00:12:56.039 --> 00:12:58.360 Like the first time you really grasp it, it can 00:12:58.360 --> 00:13:00.860 make you feel a little uneasy for sure. I've 00:13:00.860 --> 00:13:02.980 been there. But I think it's really important 00:13:02.980 --> 00:13:05.100 to also recognize that this understanding can 00:13:05.100 --> 00:13:07.659 have some really positive psychological effects 00:13:07.659 --> 00:13:10.580 too. It can shift your perspective in some pretty 00:13:10.580 --> 00:13:13.039 profound ways. In what ways? Like how has it 00:13:13.039 --> 00:13:14.759 shifted your perspective? Well, for one thing, 00:13:14.980 --> 00:13:16.720 it could really help you feel more connected 00:13:16.720 --> 00:13:20.360 to everything. Less like you're this solid, isolated 00:13:20.360 --> 00:13:23.649 self. This ties into the whole idea of the illusion 00:13:23.649 --> 00:13:25.629 of a solid self, which you've talked about on 00:13:25.629 --> 00:13:28.350 previous deep dives, right? When you start to 00:13:28.350 --> 00:13:30.950 really understand how the brain works, how our 00:13:30.950 --> 00:13:33.990 physiology works, it starts to reveal that this 00:13:33.990 --> 00:13:36.509 feeling we have of being this fixed, unchanging 00:13:36.509 --> 00:13:39.990 entity, moving through time all on our own, it's 00:13:39.990 --> 00:13:43.149 more of a useful mental construct than a true 00:13:43.149 --> 00:13:45.809 reflection of reality. And realizing that can 00:13:45.809 --> 00:13:47.769 be kind of uncomfortable at first. Like, wait, 00:13:47.950 --> 00:13:50.480 what do you mean there's no solid me? But in 00:13:50.480 --> 00:13:52.019 the long run, I think it can lead to a greater 00:13:52.019 --> 00:13:54.740 sense of oneness, a feeling of interconnectedness, 00:13:54.759 --> 00:13:56.919 and even a sense of inner freedom. It can actually 00:13:56.919 --> 00:13:58.820 reduce the amount of psychological suffering 00:13:58.820 --> 00:14:01.700 we experience. That suffering that comes from 00:14:01.700 --> 00:14:04.080 feeling fundamentally separate and alone. Because 00:14:04.080 --> 00:14:06.220 you start to see how deeply intertwined we are 00:14:06.220 --> 00:14:08.480 with everything else. That really resonates with 00:14:08.480 --> 00:14:10.159 me. I remember you mentioning that you'd love 00:14:10.159 --> 00:14:12.320 to have some kind of visual representation of 00:14:12.320 --> 00:14:14.299 this interconnectedness. Like, if we could actually 00:14:14.299 --> 00:14:16.440 see it, it would change everything. Oh, yeah, 00:14:16.440 --> 00:14:18.779 absolutely. I often imagine how different our 00:14:18.779 --> 00:14:20.919 experience would be. if we could actually see 00:14:20.919 --> 00:14:23.500 the sound waves of our voices, like literally 00:14:23.500 --> 00:14:25.600 interacting with the air between us. Or if we 00:14:25.600 --> 00:14:27.279 could see the air we're breathing flowing in 00:14:27.279 --> 00:14:29.340 and out of each other, this constant, subtle 00:14:29.340 --> 00:14:31.539 exchange we're having with the environment all 00:14:31.539 --> 00:14:33.539 the time. I think that would cultivate a much 00:14:33.539 --> 00:14:36.080 stronger, more visceral sense that we're not 00:14:36.080 --> 00:14:38.879 just separate beings in nature. We are nature. 00:14:39.679 --> 00:14:42.470 Now, let's shift gears a little bit. A lot of 00:14:42.470 --> 00:14:44.710 people have this really strong intuitive sense 00:14:44.710 --> 00:14:48.090 that consciousness, or some form of it, exists 00:14:48.090 --> 00:14:50.909 in other living things, particularly plants and 00:14:50.909 --> 00:14:53.909 fungi. We hear about trees communicating with 00:14:53.909 --> 00:14:57.190 each other, the huge complex networks of mycelium 00:14:57.190 --> 00:14:59.259 underground. What are your thoughts on that? 00:14:59.360 --> 00:15:00.840 You know, it's fascinating how powerful these 00:15:00.840 --> 00:15:03.200 intuitions can be. Like you mentioned feeling 00:15:03.200 --> 00:15:05.759 that trees have some form of consciousness. Interestingly, 00:15:06.019 --> 00:15:08.120 my own initial intuition actually went the other 00:15:08.120 --> 00:15:09.860 way. I never really felt strongly that plants 00:15:09.860 --> 00:15:12.320 were conscious. But I've been reading a lot about 00:15:12.320 --> 00:15:14.799 the latest research on plant behavior. And it's 00:15:14.799 --> 00:15:18.340 really started to challenge those initial assumptions 00:15:18.340 --> 00:15:21.279 I held. So you're saying we can't always trust 00:15:21.279 --> 00:15:24.600 our gut feelings, our intuitions in these matters. 00:15:24.779 --> 00:15:27.019 Exactly. And intuition, it's basically a feeling 00:15:27.019 --> 00:15:30.399 that something is true. But that feeling, it 00:15:30.399 --> 00:15:33.399 doesn't automatically equal accurate information 00:15:33.399 --> 00:15:36.720 about the world. The astrophysicist Sarah Walker, 00:15:37.100 --> 00:15:39.600 she recently said on social media that intuitions 00:15:39.600 --> 00:15:42.620 are our best guide as scientists. And, you know, 00:15:42.700 --> 00:15:44.320 my first reaction to that was, well, there's 00:15:44.320 --> 00:15:46.519 some truth to that, but unfortunately, they can 00:15:46.519 --> 00:15:49.490 also be our worst guide sometimes. I mean, think 00:15:49.490 --> 00:15:52.309 about it. So much of scientific progress has 00:15:52.309 --> 00:15:55.090 come from directly challenging our most cherished 00:15:55.090 --> 00:15:58.070 intuitions, like accepting that the earth is 00:15:58.070 --> 00:16:01.549 a sphere, not flat, or trying to wrap our heads 00:16:01.549 --> 00:16:03.549 around the fact that there's this whole microscopic 00:16:03.549 --> 00:16:05.490 world we can't even see with our naked eyes. 00:16:05.950 --> 00:16:09.029 Our intuitions can, and often do, change quite 00:16:09.029 --> 00:16:11.129 dramatically when we're presented with compelling 00:16:11.129 --> 00:16:13.590 new evidence, new information that challenges 00:16:13.590 --> 00:16:15.889 those old ways of thinking. And that kind of 00:16:15.889 --> 00:16:18.389 intellectual understanding, it's not always necessary 00:16:18.389 --> 00:16:20.730 to have that, to actually feel a sense of connection 00:16:20.730 --> 00:16:23.330 with something, is it? No, not at all. You can 00:16:23.330 --> 00:16:26.090 have this incredibly powerful, deeply felt experience 00:16:26.090 --> 00:16:29.389 of interconnectedness, of oneness, without needing 00:16:29.389 --> 00:16:32.029 to have a complete intellectual grasp of all 00:16:32.029 --> 00:16:34.149 the science and philosophy behind it. There's 00:16:34.149 --> 00:16:36.470 a quote by the Indian philosopher Srimasargadatta 00:16:36.470 --> 00:16:39.250 Maharaj that I think speaks to this. He said, 00:16:39.549 --> 00:16:41.570 the search for reality is the most dangerous 00:16:41.570 --> 00:16:43.789 of all undertakings, for it destroys the world 00:16:43.789 --> 00:16:46.309 in which you live. But I see that destruction 00:16:46.309 --> 00:16:49.169 not as a bad thing, but as a necessary opening. 00:16:49.389 --> 00:16:52.210 It allows us to see this much bigger, more expansive 00:16:52.210 --> 00:16:55.289 horizon. So coming back to plants and fungi, 00:16:55.570 --> 00:16:57.730 when we see these complex behaviors they exhibit, 00:16:58.309 --> 00:17:00.129 how do you interpret them in terms of consciousness? 00:17:00.250 --> 00:17:02.399 How are you thinking about it these days? Honestly, 00:17:02.600 --> 00:17:04.740 my initial interest in plant behavior actually 00:17:04.740 --> 00:17:07.460 came from this underlying sense that plants probably 00:17:07.460 --> 00:17:09.779 weren't conscious, at least not the way we typically 00:17:09.779 --> 00:17:12.119 think about it. I was really curious to see if 00:17:12.119 --> 00:17:14.660 they exhibited any behaviors that seemed analogous 00:17:14.660 --> 00:17:17.000 to things we often associate with consciousness 00:17:17.000 --> 00:17:20.140 and animals, like, for example, parental care. 00:17:20.410 --> 00:17:23.069 We might not use the word love to describe what 00:17:23.069 --> 00:17:25.670 plants do, but the behaviors themselves, they 00:17:25.670 --> 00:17:28.690 could be remarkably similar in some cases. Now 00:17:28.690 --> 00:17:30.970 historically plant research, it's suffered from 00:17:30.970 --> 00:17:33.789 a bit of pseudoscience, but there's been this 00:17:33.789 --> 00:17:36.250 huge resurgence of really solid scientifically 00:17:36.250 --> 00:17:38.950 rigorous research in recent years. I was reading 00:17:38.950 --> 00:17:40.769 the work of plant biologist Daniel Chamovitz, 00:17:41.069 --> 00:17:43.109 and I learned that we actually share a surprisingly 00:17:43.109 --> 00:17:46.630 significant amount of DNA with plants. like even 00:17:46.630 --> 00:17:49.049 genes related to light detection, which suggests 00:17:49.049 --> 00:17:51.269 that we share some very fundamental biological 00:17:51.269 --> 00:17:53.509 building blocks for certain types of behavior. 00:17:53.789 --> 00:17:56.049 So yes, plants definitely show complex behaviors, 00:17:56.410 --> 00:17:58.329 they respond to their environment in sophisticated 00:17:58.329 --> 00:18:00.869 ways, but that doesn't automatically mean they 00:18:00.869 --> 00:18:03.170 have the kind of rich, intersubjective experience 00:18:03.170 --> 00:18:05.089 that we usually associate with consciousness. 00:18:05.769 --> 00:18:08.609 So, given that it's basically impossible to get 00:18:08.609 --> 00:18:11.529 definitive proof that something other than ourselves 00:18:11.529 --> 00:18:13.930 is conscious just by looking at it from the outside, 00:18:14.430 --> 00:18:17.309 What do you think is the best way to try to figure 00:18:17.309 --> 00:18:19.569 out whether an intelligent life form might have 00:18:19.569 --> 00:18:21.730 that inner experience? That's the million dollar 00:18:21.730 --> 00:18:23.609 question, isn't it? And it really highlights 00:18:23.609 --> 00:18:25.630 why the study of consciousness is so important, 00:18:25.670 --> 00:18:28.130 so crucial. Neuroscience is still a relatively 00:18:28.130 --> 00:18:30.329 young field, and we're really just starting to 00:18:30.329 --> 00:18:32.509 understand the incredible complexity of the brain. 00:18:33.049 --> 00:18:35.849 But as we've been discussing, there's this fundamental 00:18:35.849 --> 00:18:38.789 obstacle to studying consciousness using the 00:18:38.789 --> 00:18:40.950 traditional scientific method, which relies on 00:18:40.950 --> 00:18:44.410 this third person objective observation. However, 00:18:44.589 --> 00:18:46.769 I do think we're on the verge of a major shift 00:18:46.769 --> 00:18:48.829 in the sciences, maybe even a paradigm shift 00:18:48.829 --> 00:18:50.690 like we've seen throughout history, that will 00:18:50.690 --> 00:18:52.670 allow us to develop better ways of understanding 00:18:52.670 --> 00:18:55.349 consciousness in all its forms. What exactly 00:18:55.349 --> 00:18:57.769 that shift will look like? It's hard to say, 00:18:58.170 --> 00:19:00.910 but I'm optimistic that new, more effective approaches 00:19:00.910 --> 00:19:03.539 will emerge. This whole deeper exploration of 00:19:03.539 --> 00:19:05.740 consciousness, it raises some really big ethical 00:19:05.740 --> 00:19:07.980 questions, too. Especially when we think about 00:19:07.980 --> 00:19:10.059 things like animal agriculture and the potential 00:19:10.059 --> 00:19:13.059 for suffering in beings whose inner lives we 00:19:13.059 --> 00:19:15.920 might be totally underestimating. Yeah, absolutely. 00:19:16.240 --> 00:19:18.819 If consciousness is more widespread in the natural 00:19:18.819 --> 00:19:21.259 world than we currently think, then it becomes 00:19:21.259 --> 00:19:23.319 even more important to try to understand suffering. 00:19:23.500 --> 00:19:25.779 Like, what does it actually mean to suffer? And 00:19:25.779 --> 00:19:29.019 where does it actually exist in nature? Unfortunately, 00:19:29.180 --> 00:19:31.140 the way life on Earth works, it often involves 00:19:31.140 --> 00:19:34.099 competition for resources, survival of the fittest, 00:19:34.400 --> 00:19:36.920 and that inevitably leads to some degree of suffering, 00:19:37.359 --> 00:19:39.519 at least at the animal level. There's this really 00:19:39.519 --> 00:19:41.759 disturbing example in Zoe Schlanger's book, The 00:19:41.759 --> 00:19:44.440 Light Eaters, about these cannibalistic caterpillars. 00:19:44.900 --> 00:19:47.180 And their behavior, it's actually triggered by 00:19:47.180 --> 00:19:49.269 this chemical. that a certain plant releases. 00:19:49.829 --> 00:19:52.470 It's a stark reminder of how complex and sometimes 00:19:52.470 --> 00:19:55.450 brutal the dynamics in nature can be. And it 00:19:55.450 --> 00:19:57.150 really forces us to confront our own ethical 00:19:57.150 --> 00:19:59.690 responsibility, our role in potentially reducing 00:19:59.690 --> 00:20:02.109 suffering when we become aware of it. And this 00:20:02.109 --> 00:20:03.650 line of thinking, it doesn't have to stop in 00:20:03.650 --> 00:20:06.130 animals. We can even consider the potential experiences 00:20:06.130 --> 00:20:08.609 of other forms of life, like parasites and viruses, 00:20:09.069 --> 00:20:11.150 which adds even more layers of complexity to 00:20:11.150 --> 00:20:13.609 the whole conversation. You've talked about how... 00:20:13.630 --> 00:20:16.269 Your own meditation practice has made you more 00:20:16.269 --> 00:20:18.410 sensitive to the presence of life around you. 00:20:18.710 --> 00:20:22.089 It has, yeah. Through meditation, through just 00:20:22.089 --> 00:20:23.910 trying to be more present when I'm walking in 00:20:23.910 --> 00:20:25.890 nature, I've definitely felt a deepening of my 00:20:25.890 --> 00:20:28.130 own sense of connection to everything around 00:20:28.130 --> 00:20:31.529 me. And also a stronger sense of wanting to minimize 00:20:31.529 --> 00:20:34.480 harm whenever possible. The yogic system, for 00:20:34.480 --> 00:20:36.279 example, describes these different levels of 00:20:36.279 --> 00:20:38.700 mind going beyond just the intellectual level. 00:20:38.700 --> 00:20:40.900 It suggests that there are deeper levels of intelligence 00:20:40.900 --> 00:20:44.259 that can tap into this direct intuitive knowing 00:20:44.259 --> 00:20:47.140 of interconnectedness. And I think meditation 00:20:47.140 --> 00:20:49.660 can play a role in shifting our intuitions about 00:20:49.660 --> 00:20:52.000 consciousness, about our relationship to the 00:20:52.000 --> 00:20:54.059 world. There's even this concept in Buddhism 00:20:54.059 --> 00:20:57.380 called non -conceptual valid cognition. And that 00:20:57.380 --> 00:20:59.420 refers to a kind of intuitive knowing that comes 00:20:59.420 --> 00:21:01.299 through our body, through our felt experience, 00:21:01.539 --> 00:21:04.349 not just our intellect. For me personally, just 00:21:04.349 --> 00:21:06.609 being open to the possibility that consciousness 00:21:06.609 --> 00:21:08.789 might be this fundamental aspect of reality, 00:21:09.390 --> 00:21:11.170 it's already led to new questions, a whole different 00:21:11.170 --> 00:21:13.089 way of seeing the world. This brings us to a 00:21:13.089 --> 00:21:17.170 really interesting debate. Is consciousness ultimately 00:21:17.170 --> 00:21:20.329 something that emerges from more basic unconscious 00:21:20.329 --> 00:21:23.690 processes? Or is it actually a fundamental building 00:21:23.690 --> 00:21:25.950 block of the universe itself? Can you unpack 00:21:25.950 --> 00:21:29.009 those two contrasting views for us? Sure, so 00:21:29.009 --> 00:21:31.430 the traditional view in science has been that 00:21:31.430 --> 00:21:34.069 consciousness is what we call an emergent property. 00:21:34.809 --> 00:21:36.970 It arises from a certain level of complexity 00:21:36.970 --> 00:21:39.670 in the organization of matter, like all the intricate 00:21:39.670 --> 00:21:41.809 activity happening in the human brain, even though 00:21:41.809 --> 00:21:43.710 the underlying matter itself isn't conscious. 00:21:44.309 --> 00:21:45.950 But there's another perspective that's been getting 00:21:45.950 --> 00:21:48.529 more attention lately, and that's the idea that 00:21:48.529 --> 00:21:50.250 consciousness might be fundamental, like it's 00:21:50.250 --> 00:21:52.509 just built into the fabric of the universe, as 00:21:52.509 --> 00:21:55.130 basic as space -time -gravity. You've mentioned 00:21:55.130 --> 00:21:56.869 before that you're not a huge fan of the term 00:21:56.869 --> 00:22:00.650 panpsychism. Can you tell us why? You know, panpsychism, 00:22:00.990 --> 00:22:03.470 broadly speaking, it refers to this idea that 00:22:03.470 --> 00:22:06.170 consciousness or mind -like qualities are fundamental. 00:22:06.319 --> 00:22:08.700 that they exist to some degree in everything 00:22:08.700 --> 00:22:11.220 in the universe. But personally, I'm not crazy 00:22:11.220 --> 00:22:14.099 about the term. It has some baggage from older 00:22:14.099 --> 00:22:17.099 philosophical debates, from a time when our understanding 00:22:17.099 --> 00:22:19.140 of the universe was very different, and that 00:22:19.140 --> 00:22:21.279 Kantikism at the end, it makes it sound like 00:22:21.279 --> 00:22:23.920 a rigid belief system. Whereas I see this question, 00:22:24.019 --> 00:22:26.039 is consciousness more fundamental than we currently 00:22:26.039 --> 00:22:30.019 think, as a really open, active, incredibly important 00:22:30.019 --> 00:22:31.980 scientific question that we need to be exploring. 00:22:32.319 --> 00:22:34.359 Why do you think the traditional scientific view 00:22:34.359 --> 00:22:36.680 has tended to favor this idea of consciousness 00:22:36.680 --> 00:22:38.839 as an emergent property? What's the thinking 00:22:38.839 --> 00:22:41.440 behind that? I think it's largely because the 00:22:41.440 --> 00:22:44.200 most direct way we know about consciousness is 00:22:44.200 --> 00:22:46.759 through first -hand reports, people telling us 00:22:46.759 --> 00:22:49.279 what they're experiencing. And historically those 00:22:49.279 --> 00:22:51.500 reports have mostly come from beings very similar 00:22:51.500 --> 00:22:54.420 to us other humans. So it's understandable that 00:22:54.420 --> 00:22:56.680 scientists have assumed that consciousness is 00:22:56.680 --> 00:22:59.180 probably linked to really complex systems like 00:22:59.180 --> 00:23:01.220 brains, but that's where we have the clearest 00:23:01.220 --> 00:23:03.720 confirmation that it exists, because people can 00:23:03.720 --> 00:23:07.059 talk about it. But, and this is important, even 00:23:07.059 --> 00:23:09.099 when we're dealing with other humans, it can 00:23:09.099 --> 00:23:11.759 be really hard to communicate about completely 00:23:11.759 --> 00:23:13.720 new experiences. Like remember that study we 00:23:13.720 --> 00:23:15.579 talked about earlier where people were given 00:23:15.579 --> 00:23:18.240 the ability to sense magnetic north? Oh yeah, 00:23:18.339 --> 00:23:20.980 that was fascinating. Right. They could develop 00:23:20.980 --> 00:23:23.240 the sense of magnetic north, but they really 00:23:23.240 --> 00:23:25.559 struggled to describe what it actually felt like. 00:23:25.680 --> 00:23:28.420 And that was with other humans. This suggests 00:23:28.420 --> 00:23:30.400 that there could be all sorts of conscious experiences 00:23:30.400 --> 00:23:32.599 happening even within our own species that we 00:23:32.599 --> 00:23:36.019 just don't have the capacity to recognize, understand, 00:23:36.420 --> 00:23:38.960 or communicate about effectively with our current 00:23:38.960 --> 00:23:41.299 methods. Just like we've come to realize that 00:23:41.299 --> 00:23:42.980 we're not the center of the universe, that we're 00:23:42.980 --> 00:23:44.819 not made of fundamentally different stuff than 00:23:44.819 --> 00:23:47.619 everything else, it's a valid question to ask. 00:23:48.119 --> 00:23:51.460 Could consciousness also be a more basic aspect 00:23:51.460 --> 00:23:54.250 of reality? Like maybe it's more like gravity, 00:23:54.369 --> 00:23:56.029 which seems to affect everything in the universe. 00:23:56.299 --> 00:23:58.539 You mentioned that Magnetic North study, and 00:23:58.539 --> 00:24:00.880 it made me think about how amazingly adaptable 00:24:00.880 --> 00:24:03.420 the brain is, like what we see in the research 00:24:03.420 --> 00:24:06.619 on sensory addition and substitution. Yeah, it's 00:24:06.619 --> 00:24:08.519 mind -blowing, isn't it? David Eagleman and other 00:24:08.519 --> 00:24:10.880 researchers have shown just how flexible the 00:24:10.880 --> 00:24:13.319 brain really is, like how it can adapt to completely 00:24:13.319 --> 00:24:16.400 new types of sensory input. For example, there's 00:24:16.400 --> 00:24:19.380 this device called BrainPort, and it uses electro 00:24:19.380 --> 00:24:21.960 -tactile signals on the tongue to create a kind 00:24:21.960 --> 00:24:24.730 of vision for people who are blind. It's incredible. 00:24:25.150 --> 00:24:27.289 The brain learns to make sense of this totally 00:24:27.289 --> 00:24:30.150 foreign sensory information, and it does it in 00:24:30.150 --> 00:24:32.130 a way that feels intuitive. It usually takes 00:24:32.130 --> 00:24:34.789 about six weeks for the brain to adapt. And people 00:24:34.789 --> 00:24:37.029 using BrainPort have even learned to do things 00:24:37.029 --> 00:24:39.630 like shoot basketballs using this new form of 00:24:39.630 --> 00:24:41.990 vision. It really opens up the possibility that 00:24:41.990 --> 00:24:44.089 humans could develop all sorts of new senses, 00:24:44.450 --> 00:24:46.529 new intuitions for information we don't currently 00:24:46.529 --> 00:24:49.279 perceive at all. So, let's say consciousness 00:24:49.279 --> 00:24:52.319 is fundamental, as fundamental as gravity. Why 00:24:52.319 --> 00:24:54.599 would it be that some collections of atoms, like 00:24:54.599 --> 00:24:56.900 a human brain, seem to have so much more self 00:24:56.900 --> 00:24:59.859 -awareness than, say, a rock? That is the central 00:24:59.859 --> 00:25:01.680 question, isn't it? The big mystery we're still 00:25:01.680 --> 00:25:04.160 trying to figure out. I don't have a definitive 00:25:04.160 --> 00:25:07.299 answer yet, but the main idea is that the specific 00:25:07.299 --> 00:25:09.500 structure of those collections of atoms, or maybe 00:25:09.500 --> 00:25:11.299 some deeper underlying structure that we don't 00:25:11.299 --> 00:25:14.440 even understand yet, plays a huge role in creating 00:25:14.440 --> 00:25:17.000 those more complex forms of conscious experience. 00:25:17.390 --> 00:25:19.230 I've been developing a way of thinking about 00:25:19.230 --> 00:25:21.750 the universe where consciousness is fundamental, 00:25:22.509 --> 00:25:24.250 and it suggests that what we think of as physical 00:25:24.250 --> 00:25:26.730 matter might actually be more like representations 00:25:26.730 --> 00:25:28.730 or expressions of conscious experience at its 00:25:28.730 --> 00:25:30.930 core. Kind of like how, when we look at another 00:25:30.930 --> 00:25:33.049 person, we're taking in all this visual information, 00:25:33.549 --> 00:25:35.890 their facial expressions, their movements, and 00:25:35.890 --> 00:25:38.450 it all represents this incredibly rich inner 00:25:38.450 --> 00:25:41.549 world of thoughts, feelings, sensations. Maybe 00:25:41.549 --> 00:25:43.930 this same principle applies to all matter. Simpler 00:25:43.930 --> 00:25:46.750 systems might have more basic rudimentary experiences, 00:25:47.170 --> 00:25:48.970 while more complex systems have more complex 00:25:48.970 --> 00:25:51.609 experiences. Memory also seems to be crucial 00:25:51.609 --> 00:25:54.289 for our sense of self, that feeling of continuity 00:25:54.289 --> 00:25:57.009 through time. If we didn't have at least a little 00:25:57.009 --> 00:25:59.470 bit of memory, linking one moment to the next, 00:25:59.869 --> 00:26:01.849 we probably wouldn't have this sense of a solid 00:26:01.849 --> 00:26:05.430 me moving through time. So maybe the me we experience 00:26:05.430 --> 00:26:07.549 is more like a thread of memory woven through 00:26:07.549 --> 00:26:11.150 this huge sea of countless other conscious experiences 00:26:11.150 --> 00:26:12.950 that are happening all the time within our own 00:26:12.950 --> 00:26:15.109 bodies, but that we don't necessarily remember. 00:26:16.170 --> 00:26:19.829 The really big question then becomes, if consciousness 00:26:19.829 --> 00:26:22.890 is fundamental, why does it have the specific 00:26:22.890 --> 00:26:24.990 structures and organization that we see in the 00:26:24.990 --> 00:26:27.950 universe? math and physics, they've been incredibly 00:26:27.950 --> 00:26:30.289 successful at describing these fundamental structures. 00:26:30.750 --> 00:26:32.869 Maybe the future of science is about understanding 00:26:32.869 --> 00:26:35.309 why consciousness takes these specific forms 00:26:35.309 --> 00:26:37.970 with those structures described by math and physics 00:26:37.970 --> 00:26:40.430 being the most basic elements. You brought up 00:26:40.430 --> 00:26:43.369 the example of gravity before, how our understanding 00:26:43.369 --> 00:26:46.450 of it evolved from Newton's view of it as a force 00:26:46.450 --> 00:26:48.750 to Einstein's view of it as the warping of space 00:26:48.750 --> 00:26:51.109 -time. Exactly. It's like our everyday experience 00:26:51.109 --> 00:26:53.309 of gravity, that feeling of being pulled down, 00:26:53.789 --> 00:26:56.250 it was pointing to a much deeper more fundamental 00:26:56.250 --> 00:26:59.250 truth about the nature of reality, about space 00:26:59.250 --> 00:27:02.130 -time itself, and maybe our experience of space 00:27:02.130 --> 00:27:04.410 and time, it's pointing to something even more 00:27:04.410 --> 00:27:07.230 fundamental. Maybe space itself isn't truly fundamental, 00:27:07.650 --> 00:27:09.609 but rather it emerges from something else, something 00:27:09.609 --> 00:27:12.490 we don't fully grasp yet. And if consciousness 00:27:12.490 --> 00:27:15.470 is fundamental, then the idea that space is emergent, 00:27:15.710 --> 00:27:17.670 that it's a kind of mapping our brains create, 00:27:18.089 --> 00:27:21.160 it starts to make a bit more sense. It also connects 00:27:21.160 --> 00:27:23.700 to the ideas of physicists like Maastegmark, 00:27:24.119 --> 00:27:26.160 who argues that mathematical structures are actually 00:27:26.160 --> 00:27:29.079 fundamental aspects of reality. Now, that's hard 00:27:29.079 --> 00:27:30.940 to wrap our heads around with our current understanding 00:27:30.940 --> 00:27:33.819 of physics. But what if those mathematical structures 00:27:33.819 --> 00:27:36.140 are actually describing different types of fundamental 00:27:36.140 --> 00:27:38.680 experiences in a universe where consciousness 00:27:38.680 --> 00:27:41.079 is the basic building block? This could even 00:27:41.079 --> 00:27:42.980 relate to the idea of multiple dimensions that 00:27:42.980 --> 00:27:45.460 comes up in quantum mechanics, which are so hard 00:27:45.460 --> 00:27:47.500 to reconcile with our everyday experience of 00:27:47.500 --> 00:27:49.640 three -dimensional space. It's amazing how these 00:27:49.640 --> 00:27:52.210 ideas from cutting -edge science They seem to 00:27:52.210 --> 00:27:54.450 resonate with some of the ancient wisdom traditions. 00:27:54.750 --> 00:27:56.809 Oh, yeah, absolutely. The idea of a fundamental 00:27:56.809 --> 00:27:59.130 consciousness. It's a core concept in a lot of 00:27:59.130 --> 00:28:01.970 Eastern philosophies. They talk about the illusory 00:28:01.970 --> 00:28:04.329 nature of the self, the limitations of free will, 00:28:04.630 --> 00:28:06.869 and they point to this more fundamental aspect 00:28:06.869 --> 00:28:10.089 of being, often called the witness or pure awareness. 00:28:10.269 --> 00:28:12.849 And they suggest that understanding this deeply 00:28:12.849 --> 00:28:16.089 can lead to a profound sense of liberation and 00:28:16.089 --> 00:28:18.650 freedom. freedom that's not dependent on the 00:28:18.650 --> 00:28:21.349 ego, on the idea of a separate self. So Enoch, 00:28:21.769 --> 00:28:23.710 if consciousness is as fundamental as you're 00:28:23.710 --> 00:28:26.430 suggesting, what would you say is the most fundamental 00:28:26.430 --> 00:28:29.609 aspect of your own nature? For me, it comes down 00:28:29.609 --> 00:28:31.750 to those moments of deep stillness when the mind 00:28:31.750 --> 00:28:34.609 is quiet. There's this sense of presence, of 00:28:34.609 --> 00:28:36.809 awareness, that remains even when there are no 00:28:36.809 --> 00:28:39.960 specific thoughts, no sensory input. It suggests 00:28:39.960 --> 00:28:42.440 that this basic awareness, this pure, unconditioned 00:28:42.440 --> 00:28:45.000 capacity for experience, might be the most fundamental 00:28:45.000 --> 00:28:48.119 thing about me, about all of us. So, if this 00:28:48.119 --> 00:28:51.400 is true, if consciousness is fundamental, wouldn't 00:28:51.400 --> 00:28:54.400 that mean that directly exploring our own first 00:28:54.400 --> 00:28:56.660 -person experience through things like meditation 00:28:56.660 --> 00:28:59.319 could give us insights into the nature of reality 00:28:59.319 --> 00:29:01.180 that we couldn't get through traditional science? 00:29:01.519 --> 00:29:04.299 Exactly. Practices like meditation, they're specifically 00:29:04.299 --> 00:29:07.259 designed to quiet the mind to explore the nature 00:29:07.259 --> 00:29:10.019 of experience directly. They could offer a unique 00:29:10.019 --> 00:29:13.140 and valuable path to understanding reality, a 00:29:13.140 --> 00:29:15.460 path that complements and maybe even informs 00:29:15.460 --> 00:29:17.440 traditional science. Let's talk more about this 00:29:17.440 --> 00:29:20.380 idea of the illusion of self. What exactly is 00:29:20.380 --> 00:29:21.920 the illusion here? What are we talking about 00:29:21.920 --> 00:29:24.240 when we say the self is an illusion? It's really 00:29:24.240 --> 00:29:26.819 important to make this clear. When we talk about 00:29:26.819 --> 00:29:29.119 the illusion of self, it doesn't mean that we 00:29:29.119 --> 00:29:31.720 don't exist as individuals, or the things we 00:29:31.720 --> 00:29:34.259 experience in the world aren't real. Think of 00:29:34.259 --> 00:29:37.109 it like waves in the ocean. Waves are real, they're 00:29:37.109 --> 00:29:39.630 dynamic, they're constantly changing, but ultimately 00:29:39.630 --> 00:29:41.750 they're just movements of the underlying water. 00:29:42.630 --> 00:29:45.170 The illusion is in thinking that the wave is 00:29:45.170 --> 00:29:48.369 a separate independent thing. So with the self, 00:29:48.769 --> 00:29:50.650 the illusion is this feeling we have of being 00:29:50.650 --> 00:29:53.809 a solid, unchanging, independent entity that 00:29:53.809 --> 00:29:56.750 moves through time in a straight line. Now our 00:29:56.750 --> 00:29:58.809 brains are constantly processing information, 00:29:59.109 --> 00:30:00.990 creating this sense of continuity, making everything 00:30:00.990 --> 00:30:04.160 feel coherent. But the self we experience, it's 00:30:04.160 --> 00:30:06.220 more like that way of constantly changing fluid 00:30:06.220 --> 00:30:08.920 than it is like a fixed object. Even the way 00:30:08.920 --> 00:30:12.299 we talk, like saying my brain, my body, it reinforces 00:30:12.299 --> 00:30:14.019 this idea that we're separate from our physical 00:30:14.019 --> 00:30:16.640 being. And this feeling of a solid, independent 00:30:16.640 --> 00:30:19.220 self is also tied to our sense of free will. 00:30:19.660 --> 00:30:21.359 The feeling that our conscious self is making 00:30:21.359 --> 00:30:23.680 decisions all on its own, independently of the 00:30:23.680 --> 00:30:25.759 physical world, independently of cause and effect. 00:30:25.920 --> 00:30:28.279 But what of consciousness is more like the canvas, 00:30:28.740 --> 00:30:31.059 the background on which the events of reality 00:30:31.059 --> 00:30:33.839 driven by our brain processes are playing out. 00:30:34.259 --> 00:30:37.200 That analogy of the self being like a wave, it's 00:30:37.200 --> 00:30:39.279 really helpful. And there's actually measurable 00:30:39.279 --> 00:30:41.640 evidence of this, too. Studies have shown that 00:30:41.640 --> 00:30:43.859 certain brain areas, particularly the default 00:30:43.859 --> 00:30:47.460 mode network, become less active in deep meditation 00:30:47.460 --> 00:30:50.420 and in psychedelic experiences. And this correlates 00:30:50.420 --> 00:30:52.779 with the feeling of the self dissolving. That's 00:30:52.779 --> 00:30:55.380 right. And the important thing is that This dissolving 00:30:55.380 --> 00:30:57.059 of the self, it doesn't mean we're not conscious 00:30:57.059 --> 00:30:59.700 anymore. We're still fully conscious. But it 00:30:59.700 --> 00:31:02.519 often leads to really positive experiences. People 00:31:02.519 --> 00:31:05.559 describe a sense of interconnectedness, of oneness, 00:31:06.039 --> 00:31:08.019 a feeling of being part of something much bigger. 00:31:08.440 --> 00:31:10.480 I actually had a really powerful experience of 00:31:10.480 --> 00:31:13.000 this myself at a silent meditation retreat a 00:31:13.000 --> 00:31:15.160 few years ago. Would you mind sharing that experience 00:31:15.160 --> 00:31:18.099 with us? Sure. I was doing walking meditation 00:31:18.099 --> 00:31:20.359 and suddenly it was like this light bulb went 00:31:20.359 --> 00:31:22.839 off. Not just an intellectual understanding, 00:31:23.200 --> 00:31:26.079 but a direct experience, that there was no me 00:31:26.079 --> 00:31:28.400 doing the walking. There was just the experience 00:31:28.400 --> 00:31:31.180 itself, the sensations in my feet, the movement 00:31:31.180 --> 00:31:33.059 of my body all happening on their own. It was 00:31:33.059 --> 00:31:35.720 like all these conscious experiences, the qualia, 00:31:35.759 --> 00:31:37.579 the thoughts, the sensations, they were just 00:31:37.579 --> 00:31:40.079 arising and passing away within the field of 00:31:40.079 --> 00:31:42.880 consciousness itself. Like bubbles forming and 00:31:42.880 --> 00:31:45.240 popping in a boiling pot of water, all happening 00:31:45.240 --> 00:31:48.000 within the same water, without any central self 00:31:48.000 --> 00:31:50.799 controlling it all. It brought this deep sense 00:31:50.799 --> 00:31:53.539 of peace, of non -attachment, and a feeling of 00:31:53.539 --> 00:31:56.220 just witnessing things arising and passing away. 00:31:56.640 --> 00:31:59.000 It's what Buddhists call Anicca. And with that 00:31:59.000 --> 00:32:01.380 came this incredible sense of freedom and a much 00:32:01.380 --> 00:32:03.440 more direct, intimate connection with the world, 00:32:03.799 --> 00:32:05.880 without all the usual filters and distortions 00:32:05.880 --> 00:32:08.680 created by my desires and expectations. It was 00:32:08.680 --> 00:32:10.460 like taking off a pair of glasses I didn't even 00:32:10.460 --> 00:32:12.599 know I was wearing. And there was this really 00:32:12.599 --> 00:32:15.160 strong feeling of oneness, like other beings 00:32:15.160 --> 00:32:17.599 were just part of that same interconnected web 00:32:17.599 --> 00:32:20.440 of experience. Not in a narcissistic way, but 00:32:20.440 --> 00:32:22.740 more like how you might identify with the past 00:32:22.740 --> 00:32:25.200 version of yourself. It even makes you think 00:32:25.200 --> 00:32:27.599 about what we might call experiential science. 00:32:28.240 --> 00:32:31.460 Like, what if in the future we could share memories 00:32:31.460 --> 00:32:33.940 directly? Would that give us a clearer view? 00:32:34.140 --> 00:32:36.660 of this underlying reality. We just strengthen 00:32:36.660 --> 00:32:38.500 our understanding that others are fundamentally 00:32:38.500 --> 00:32:40.759 similar to ourselves, just experiencing different 00:32:40.759 --> 00:32:43.559 moments in time. It sounds like a truly life 00:32:43.559 --> 00:32:45.880 -changing experience. It was. It changes how 00:32:45.880 --> 00:32:48.180 you relate to the world, how you relate to yourself.