WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:03.399 All right, so today we're gonna be taking a deep 00:00:03.399 --> 00:00:08.460 dive into the work of Roger Penrose. And for 00:00:08.460 --> 00:00:11.140 folks who might not be familiar, Roger Penrose 00:00:11.140 --> 00:00:14.019 won the Nobel Prize for his work in physics, 00:00:14.619 --> 00:00:18.699 specifically for black holes. But he also has 00:00:18.699 --> 00:00:24.079 some really interesting ideas about AI. And some 00:00:24.079 --> 00:00:26.859 might say controversial ideas about AI. Yeah, 00:00:27.140 --> 00:00:31.160 absolutely. So what's the big idea here? Well, 00:00:31.260 --> 00:00:35.700 I mean, Penrose, he's really not afraid to challenge 00:00:35.700 --> 00:00:39.359 the mainstream view of things. And I think when 00:00:39.359 --> 00:00:43.719 it comes to AI, his big claim is that human consciousness 00:00:43.719 --> 00:00:45.719 relies on something that computers fundamentally 00:00:45.719 --> 00:00:48.149 can't replicate. So he's not just saying that, 00:00:48.149 --> 00:00:50.090 you know, AI needs to catch up. He's saying there's 00:00:50.090 --> 00:00:52.130 like a fundamental difference. Right. Even like 00:00:52.130 --> 00:00:54.109 a super advanced computer is missing something. 00:00:54.109 --> 00:00:55.869 Yeah. For real intelligence. Right. It's not, 00:00:55.929 --> 00:00:57.590 it's not just a matter of like, oh, well, you 00:00:57.590 --> 00:00:59.170 know, we'll just build a bigger computer and 00:00:59.170 --> 00:01:01.170 then it'll be conscious. Right. Saying like, 00:01:01.429 --> 00:01:03.630 no. There's something else going on. There's 00:01:03.630 --> 00:01:06.689 a wall there. Yeah. OK. And so his big idea is 00:01:06.689 --> 00:01:10.109 that the human brain uses these processes that 00:01:10.109 --> 00:01:13.450 are rooted in quantum mechanics. OK. What he 00:01:13.450 --> 00:01:15.609 calls uncomputable physics that are kind of like 00:01:15.609 --> 00:01:18.390 beyond the reach of any algorithm. OK. So this 00:01:18.390 --> 00:01:20.430 is where I need a little bit of help. Sure. I 00:01:20.430 --> 00:01:24.269 get that quantum mechanics is super complicated. 00:01:24.569 --> 00:01:27.010 It's mind boggling. But how does that connect 00:01:27.010 --> 00:01:30.750 to consciousness? Yeah. So. Penrose is pointing 00:01:30.750 --> 00:01:32.390 to this thing called the collapse of the wave 00:01:32.390 --> 00:01:35.390 function. Okay, which is this mysterious process 00:01:35.390 --> 00:01:38.969 in quantum physics as Potentially playing a role 00:01:38.969 --> 00:01:42.209 in our conscious experience. Okay, and so he's 00:01:42.209 --> 00:01:45.430 arguing that this process is fundamentally different 00:01:45.430 --> 00:01:48.500 from the way computers work OK, but haven't we 00:01:48.500 --> 00:01:51.340 seen AI doing amazing things lately? I mean, 00:01:51.379 --> 00:01:53.540 they use large language models that can hold 00:01:53.540 --> 00:01:55.599 complex conversations, write different kinds 00:01:55.599 --> 00:01:57.700 of creative content, and even seem to understand 00:01:57.700 --> 00:02:00.719 what words mean, like solving what philosophers 00:02:00.719 --> 00:02:03.980 call the symbol grounding problem. Isn't that 00:02:03.980 --> 00:02:07.760 a sign that AI is kind of on the right track, 00:02:07.780 --> 00:02:10.479 even without quantum mechanics? I think that's 00:02:10.479 --> 00:02:12.819 a really great point. I mean, if Penrose is right, 00:02:13.740 --> 00:02:16.629 it kind of seems like our brains are taking the 00:02:16.629 --> 00:02:19.569 scenic route to consciousness. Like we're using 00:02:19.569 --> 00:02:22.550 this really complex, mysterious quantum process 00:02:22.550 --> 00:02:26.889 to achieve what AI might be doing through just 00:02:26.889 --> 00:02:29.729 simpler, computable means. It does feel like 00:02:29.729 --> 00:02:32.789 Penrose is going for the most complex explanation 00:02:32.789 --> 00:02:34.569 possible. He does have a bit of a reputation 00:02:34.569 --> 00:02:36.030 for that. Yeah, maybe that's just how his mind 00:02:36.030 --> 00:02:41.150 works. But he also leans heavily on Gödel's incompleteness 00:02:41.150 --> 00:02:43.650 theorem to support his argument, right? Yeah. 00:02:43.740 --> 00:02:46.659 Yeah, absolutely. So Godel's theorem kind of 00:02:46.659 --> 00:02:49.539 simplified states that any complex logical system 00:02:49.539 --> 00:02:51.539 is going to have some true statements that it 00:02:51.539 --> 00:02:55.139 can't prove. OK. And so Penrose is using this 00:02:55.139 --> 00:02:58.259 to argue that humans can kind of intuitively 00:02:58.259 --> 00:03:01.180 grasp the truth of these unprovable statements, 00:03:01.319 --> 00:03:03.699 showing a level of insight that computers can 00:03:03.699 --> 00:03:06.560 never have. So are humans somehow outside of 00:03:06.560 --> 00:03:09.120 the system? Well, computers are stuck inside, 00:03:09.680 --> 00:03:12.099 unable to see the bigger picture. That's what 00:03:12.099 --> 00:03:15.099 he's saying. OK. And he uses this example of 00:03:15.099 --> 00:03:18.800 a Godel statement, called G, which he says only 00:03:18.800 --> 00:03:21.639 humans can understand is true, even though it's 00:03:21.639 --> 00:03:24.840 unprovable within its own system. But here's 00:03:24.840 --> 00:03:28.460 where the counter -argument comes in. Godel's 00:03:28.460 --> 00:03:30.360 theorem is kind of like setting a logical trap. 00:03:30.740 --> 00:03:33.580 Okay, now I'm intrigued. Explain the trap. Okay, 00:03:34.219 --> 00:03:37.280 so imagine you're punching a punching bag. It's 00:03:37.280 --> 00:03:39.080 not that impressive that the bag doesn't fight 00:03:39.080 --> 00:03:42.099 back, right? So Godel is creating a statement 00:03:42.099 --> 00:03:45.120 that is specifically designed to be unprovable 00:03:45.120 --> 00:03:48.500 within a given system. It's not that humans have 00:03:48.500 --> 00:03:51.479 some mystical insight. It's more that the statement 00:03:51.479 --> 00:03:54.819 is a clever paradox. So if AI is the punching 00:03:54.819 --> 00:03:58.139 bag, Penrose is basically rigging the game. Exactly. 00:03:58.460 --> 00:04:01.439 And here's the fun part. You can turn that same 00:04:01.439 --> 00:04:05.300 Godel -style logic back on Denros. Oh. So let's 00:04:05.300 --> 00:04:07.599 create a statement P that says Penrose can't 00:04:07.599 --> 00:04:10.659 prove me. Ooh, I like where this is going. OK, 00:04:10.719 --> 00:04:13.919 so think about it. Yeah. If Penrose tries to 00:04:13.919 --> 00:04:17.560 prove that P is true, he's proven that he can't 00:04:17.560 --> 00:04:20.180 prove it. Right. Which is a contradiction. Right. 00:04:20.519 --> 00:04:22.500 If he tries to prove that it's false. Uh -huh. 00:04:22.600 --> 00:04:25.079 Well, then he's proven it, which is, again, a 00:04:25.079 --> 00:04:26.959 contradiction. So he gets caught in the same 00:04:26.959 --> 00:04:29.720 logical loop that he's claiming demonstrates 00:04:29.720 --> 00:04:32.360 the superiority of human consciousness. So if 00:04:32.360 --> 00:04:35.360 this uncomputable consciousness doesn't limit 00:04:35.360 --> 00:04:39.279 what AI can actually do, then what's the point 00:04:39.279 --> 00:04:42.399 of Penrose's argument? Yeah, I think that's the 00:04:42.399 --> 00:04:46.100 real question here. Yeah. We see AI doing these 00:04:46.100 --> 00:04:50.769 incredible things. driving cars, writing code, 00:04:51.290 --> 00:04:53.750 potentially even passing the Turing test, which 00:04:53.750 --> 00:04:56.610 means being indistinguishable from a human in 00:04:56.610 --> 00:04:59.649 conversation. Doesn't this suggest that something 00:04:59.649 --> 00:05:01.930 impressive is happening regardless of quantum 00:05:01.930 --> 00:05:04.029 microtubules? Yeah, I'm starting to think that 00:05:04.029 --> 00:05:07.149 maybe Penrose is so focused on this one difference 00:05:07.149 --> 00:05:10.110 that he's missing the bigger picture of just 00:05:10.110 --> 00:05:12.870 how capable AI is becoming. Yeah, I think it 00:05:12.870 --> 00:05:14.629 raises a really big question for you, the listener. 00:05:14.629 --> 00:05:19.980 Yeah. AI can do all these things. Does it even 00:05:19.980 --> 00:05:22.339 matter how it's achieving them? Right. Or are 00:05:22.339 --> 00:05:24.560 we witnessing like a new kind of intelligence 00:05:24.560 --> 00:05:28.500 regardless of whether it mirrors our own? And 00:05:28.500 --> 00:05:30.459 that brings us to another important aspect of 00:05:30.459 --> 00:05:34.439 this conversation, AI risk. Yes. Penrose does 00:05:34.439 --> 00:05:38.180 express concern about AI risk. He does. But his 00:05:38.180 --> 00:05:41.879 focus is primarily on the potential dangers of 00:05:41.879 --> 00:05:44.720 like this hypothetical conscious AI we might 00:05:44.720 --> 00:05:47.060 create in the future. So he's less concerned 00:05:47.060 --> 00:05:50.100 about the AI that we have now, which is already 00:05:50.100 --> 00:05:53.180 showing signs of being pretty powerful. And he's 00:05:53.180 --> 00:05:56.100 more worried about some future like. you know, 00:05:56.420 --> 00:05:58.100 super intelligence. Yeah, that's right. And I 00:05:58.100 --> 00:06:00.620 think a lot of AI researchers today are really 00:06:00.620 --> 00:06:03.040 worried about the risks of current AI systems, 00:06:03.660 --> 00:06:05.220 even if they're not conscious in the way that 00:06:05.220 --> 00:06:07.560 Penrose is defining it. So things like algorithmic 00:06:07.560 --> 00:06:11.560 bias, displacement of jobs, even the possibility 00:06:11.560 --> 00:06:14.300 of these systems being used for malicious purposes, 00:06:14.860 --> 00:06:17.259 like they're worried about unintended consequences 00:06:17.259 --> 00:06:20.120 that could arise from the AI that already exists. 00:06:20.139 --> 00:06:22.819 It makes sense to address both present and future 00:06:22.819 --> 00:06:26.029 concerns, but I can see why. why some AI experts 00:06:26.029 --> 00:06:28.389 might feel like Penrose is overlooking these 00:06:28.389 --> 00:06:32.370 immediate challenges. So, where do we go from 00:06:32.370 --> 00:06:36.810 here? We've explored Penrose's ideas, we even 00:06:36.810 --> 00:06:40.410 challenged his logic a bit. What are the key 00:06:40.410 --> 00:06:42.449 takeaways for our listeners? Well, I think that 00:06:42.449 --> 00:06:44.889 the big takeaway here is that Penrose's focus 00:06:44.889 --> 00:06:47.910 on uncomputable consciousness might be distracting 00:06:47.910 --> 00:06:51.439 us from the... more pressing ethical considerations 00:06:51.439 --> 00:06:54.639 surrounding AI development. Even if he's right 00:06:54.639 --> 00:06:57.199 about the nature of human consciousness, it doesn't 00:06:57.199 --> 00:06:59.500 mean that non -conscious AI is inherently harmless. 00:06:59.939 --> 00:07:02.120 So we shouldn't get lost in this philosophical 00:07:02.120 --> 00:07:04.439 debate while ignoring the practical implications 00:07:04.439 --> 00:07:07.879 of this increasingly powerful AI. Absolutely. 00:07:08.019 --> 00:07:10.639 It's crucial to ponder those big questions about 00:07:10.639 --> 00:07:13.139 consciousness and intelligence. But we also need 00:07:13.139 --> 00:07:16.800 to be mindful of the potential consequences of 00:07:16.800 --> 00:07:19.040 AI that's already shaping our world. It's like 00:07:19.040 --> 00:07:20.939 arguing about the definition of fire while your 00:07:20.939 --> 00:07:22.939 house is burning down. You've got to deal with 00:07:22.939 --> 00:07:25.399 the immediate threat first. Right. Yeah. And 00:07:25.399 --> 00:07:27.699 that brings us back to you, dear listener. Right. 00:07:27.939 --> 00:07:31.480 Because the question of whether AI is truly intelligent 00:07:31.480 --> 00:07:34.939 in the same way as humans might be less important 00:07:34.939 --> 00:07:37.139 than the question of how we're going to coexist 00:07:37.139 --> 00:07:39.480 with it safely and ethically as it continues 00:07:39.480 --> 00:07:41.699 to evolve. Yeah, that's the real challenge. Right. 00:07:41.779 --> 00:07:44.399 It demands our attention whether or not we agree 00:07:44.399 --> 00:07:47.189 with Penrose's specific theories. So what do 00:07:47.189 --> 00:07:49.810 you think? Is Penrose right about this fundamental 00:07:49.810 --> 00:07:52.410 difference between human and artificial intelligence? 00:07:52.589 --> 00:07:55.430 Right. Or are we on the verge of something far 00:07:55.430 --> 00:07:58.129 more powerful than we realize, regardless of 00:07:58.129 --> 00:08:00.529 how it works on the inside? This is a deep dive 00:08:00.529 --> 00:08:02.470 that doesn't end with today's episode. Yeah. 00:08:02.629 --> 00:08:04.750 It's a journey of exploration and questioning. 00:08:05.110 --> 00:08:07.490 Absolutely. We'll continue to explore these topics 00:08:07.490 --> 00:08:09.970 in future episodes. Yeah. The nature of intelligence, 00:08:10.209 --> 00:08:13.310 the capabilities of current AI, the potential 00:08:13.310 --> 00:08:15.649 risks, and of course, the ethical considerations 00:08:15.649 --> 00:08:19.019 we we absolutely cannot ignore. We'll be diving 00:08:19.019 --> 00:08:22.199 into these fascinating and sometimes unnerving 00:08:22.199 --> 00:08:24.860 topics together, so stay tuned. Definitely. Yeah. 00:08:25.019 --> 00:08:27.040 We'd love to hear your thoughts. Absolutely. 00:08:27.279 --> 00:08:30.480 What struck you about Penrose's ideas? Yeah. 00:08:30.540 --> 00:08:32.259 What are you thinking about? Do you think he's 00:08:32.259 --> 00:08:34.799 onto something with this uncomputable consciousness? 00:08:34.980 --> 00:08:37.559 Right. Or is he kind of overthinking things while 00:08:37.559 --> 00:08:40.370 AI keeps advancing? Yeah. What do you think? 00:08:40.490 --> 00:08:42.990 Hit us up in the comments, send a voice message. 00:08:43.169 --> 00:08:45.889 Whatever works. Whatever works. We really value 00:08:45.889 --> 00:08:48.330 your perspective. Yes, we do. This isn't just 00:08:48.330 --> 00:08:50.990 about dissecting one brilliant physicist's view. 00:08:51.070 --> 00:08:53.429 Right. It's about wrestling with some of the 00:08:53.429 --> 00:08:55.590 biggest questions facing humanity right now. 00:08:55.950 --> 00:08:58.230 Absolutely. Speaking of which, before we move 00:08:58.230 --> 00:09:01.490 on, let's touch on one of Penrose's more intriguing 00:09:01.490 --> 00:09:04.269 points. Okay. The idea that even if he's wrong 00:09:04.269 --> 00:09:07.690 about the how the quantum stuff, he might be 00:09:07.690 --> 00:09:09.570 accidentally right about something else entirely. 00:09:09.809 --> 00:09:12.370 Oh, interesting. OK. What if there is a limit 00:09:12.370 --> 00:09:16.429 to what AI can achieve through pure computation? 00:09:17.029 --> 00:09:21.269 What if some problems, some insights require 00:09:21.269 --> 00:09:24.429 something more? Maybe not quantum weirdness, 00:09:24.549 --> 00:09:27.190 but something we haven't even imagined yet. Right. 00:09:28.090 --> 00:09:30.830 That's a really fascinating possibility. What 00:09:30.830 --> 00:09:34.649 if there's like a seizing to computable intelligence, 00:09:35.409 --> 00:09:37.409 even if it's much higher than we currently think. 00:09:37.970 --> 00:09:42.570 Could that be what truly separates human intelligence 00:09:42.570 --> 00:09:45.679 from anything that we can create? artificially. 00:09:45.960 --> 00:09:48.639 Right. What if there's a whole realm of understanding 00:09:48.639 --> 00:09:51.179 that's inaccessible to even the most advanced 00:09:51.179 --> 00:09:54.139 algorithms? A realm that requires something uniquely 00:09:54.139 --> 00:09:56.879 human, something that goes beyond pure computation. 00:09:57.159 --> 00:10:00.019 It's a really thought provoking idea. It suggests 00:10:00.019 --> 00:10:03.070 that even if Penrose is wrong, about the details, 00:10:03.529 --> 00:10:05.649 he might be pointing us towards a deeper truth 00:10:05.649 --> 00:10:08.129 about the nature of consciousness and intelligence. 00:10:08.309 --> 00:10:11.070 So as AI continues to develop at this incredible 00:10:11.070 --> 00:10:14.009 pace, it begs the question, is there something 00:10:14.009 --> 00:10:16.950 fundamental about human intelligence that will 00:10:16.950 --> 00:10:19.649 always remain beyond the reach of machines? Or 00:10:19.649 --> 00:10:23.490 will AI eventually surpass us in every way, proving 00:10:23.490 --> 00:10:26.330 Penrose completely wrong? Yeah, these are great 00:10:26.330 --> 00:10:28.649 questions to keep in mind as you go about your 00:10:28.649 --> 00:10:34.070 week. You know what surprises you about AI's 00:10:34.070 --> 00:10:37.649 progress? What triggers that aha moment of insight 00:10:37.649 --> 00:10:41.009 in your own mind? Maybe just maybe those moments 00:10:41.009 --> 00:10:46.090 hold a clue. And until next time, keep diving 00:10:46.090 --> 00:10:48.450 deep. Keep those questions coming. Keep those 00:10:48.450 --> 00:10:50.330 questions coming and keep those brains buzzing. 00:10:52.350 --> 00:10:56.629 All right, so we've explored Penrose's fascinating 00:10:56.629 --> 00:11:01.889 and maybe slightly frustrating ideas about consciousness 00:11:01.889 --> 00:11:05.629 and AI. He's made us think about the potential 00:11:05.629 --> 00:11:08.570 limits of computation and whether there's something 00:11:08.570 --> 00:11:11.029 special about human intelligence that might always 00:11:11.029 --> 00:11:13.929 elude machines. It's definitely a conversation 00:11:13.929 --> 00:11:15.950 that could go on for hours. Yeah, for sure. But 00:11:15.950 --> 00:11:18.029 let's try to distill some key insights for our 00:11:18.029 --> 00:11:20.210 listeners to take away. Okay, sounds good. What 00:11:20.210 --> 00:11:21.830 are the biggest things we should be mulling over 00:11:21.830 --> 00:11:24.409 after this deep dive? Well, first, I think Pedro's 00:11:24.409 --> 00:11:27.320 challenges us to consider whether current AI 00:11:27.320 --> 00:11:32.159 is truly intelligent or really a very sophisticated 00:11:32.159 --> 00:11:36.120 mimicry of human thought processes. He argues 00:11:36.120 --> 00:11:39.860 that without incorporating these uncomputable 00:11:39.860 --> 00:11:43.419 processes, AI might always fall short. Right. 00:11:43.679 --> 00:11:45.419 Of genuine understanding. He's basically saying 00:11:45.419 --> 00:11:48.159 there's a qualitative difference. Yes. Not just 00:11:48.159 --> 00:11:50.899 a quantitative one. Exists. Between human and 00:11:50.899 --> 00:11:54.019 artificial intelligence. Right. And that difference, 00:11:54.299 --> 00:11:56.500 according to Penrose, hinges on the mysteries 00:11:56.500 --> 00:11:59.539 of quantum mechanics. Yes. Specifically, the 00:11:59.539 --> 00:12:01.960 collapse of the wave function. Yeah. Which he 00:12:01.960 --> 00:12:04.779 believes plays a role in consciousness. OK. Now 00:12:04.779 --> 00:12:06.620 not everyone agrees with him on this. Right. 00:12:06.779 --> 00:12:09.980 But it's a provocative idea that pushes us to 00:12:09.980 --> 00:12:11.980 examine our assumptions about how the brain and 00:12:11.980 --> 00:12:13.860 AI work. Yeah, it certainly makes you wonder 00:12:13.860 --> 00:12:16.519 if there are aspects of reality and consciousness 00:12:16.519 --> 00:12:18.980 that we're not even equipped to understand yet, 00:12:19.399 --> 00:12:21.879 let alone replicate in machines. Exactly. And 00:12:21.879 --> 00:12:23.879 this leads to the second big takeaway. Even if 00:12:23.879 --> 00:12:27.340 Penrose is wrong about the specifics of his argument, 00:12:27.539 --> 00:12:30.139 he might be accidentally right about the potential 00:12:30.139 --> 00:12:33.019 limits of computation. So even without invoking 00:12:33.019 --> 00:12:35.379 quantum mechanics, there could be a ceiling to 00:12:35.379 --> 00:12:37.740 what AI can achieve through sheer processing 00:12:37.740 --> 00:12:40.940 power. Precisely. Perhaps there are types of 00:12:40.940 --> 00:12:43.580 problems there, right? Creative leaps or intuitive 00:12:43.580 --> 00:12:47.659 insights that require something more than just 00:12:47.659 --> 00:12:50.129 crunching numbers and manipulating symbols. It 00:12:50.129 --> 00:12:51.929 makes you wonder if there are certain realms 00:12:51.929 --> 00:12:54.830 of human experience like art music. Right. Or 00:12:54.830 --> 00:12:57.149 even the feeling of love that might always remain 00:12:57.149 --> 00:12:59.990 beyond the grasp of AI no matter how sophisticated 00:12:59.990 --> 00:13:02.490 it becomes. It's a humbling thought. It is. And 00:13:02.490 --> 00:13:04.470 it opens up a whole new set of questions about 00:13:04.470 --> 00:13:06.450 the nature of intelligence and consciousness. 00:13:06.610 --> 00:13:09.129 Right. Maybe Penrose is pushing us to consider 00:13:09.129 --> 00:13:11.230 that true intelligence might involve something 00:13:11.230 --> 00:13:13.370 more than just computation. Yeah. Something we 00:13:13.370 --> 00:13:16.029 haven't fully grasped yet. That's a pretty profound 00:13:16.029 --> 00:13:18.610 thought to end on. It is, and it's one that each 00:13:18.610 --> 00:13:21.590 of us can continue to ponder as AI continues 00:13:21.590 --> 00:13:24.470 to evolve at this astonishing rate. Right. It's 00:13:24.470 --> 00:13:26.190 worth paying attention to what surprises us. 00:13:26.309 --> 00:13:29.710 OK. What evokes a sense of wonder? What seems 00:13:29.710 --> 00:13:33.070 to defy explanation? Yeah. Those moments might 00:13:33.070 --> 00:13:34.710 just be pointing us toward the answer. I think 00:13:34.710 --> 00:13:37.590 that's a perfect note to wrap up on keep questioning. 00:13:37.899 --> 00:13:40.700 Keep exploring, and we'll see you next time for 00:13:40.700 --> 00:13:43.440 another deep dive into the mysteries of the universe 00:13:43.440 --> 00:13:47.389 and the human mind. So we made it folks we did 00:13:47.389 --> 00:13:52.029 the final part of our deep dive into Roger Penrose's 00:13:52.029 --> 00:13:54.970 wild ride That's right through the world of consciousness 00:13:54.970 --> 00:13:58.029 and AI. Yeah, he really got us thinking he did 00:13:58.029 --> 00:14:00.590 I mean, you know, he's this brilliant physicist 00:14:00.590 --> 00:14:03.149 yet Nobel Prize winner Nobel Prize winner not 00:14:03.149 --> 00:14:06.230 afraid of big ideas not afraid of big ideas Yeah, 00:14:06.389 --> 00:14:08.509 and he really kind of threw down the gauntlet 00:14:08.509 --> 00:14:11.220 he did saying that like You know, current AI, 00:14:11.440 --> 00:14:13.200 it's not really intelligent. Yeah, he's not buying 00:14:13.200 --> 00:14:15.500 it. It's just a really, really good imitation. 00:14:15.820 --> 00:14:18.200 Right, like a sophisticated mimicry. Yeah. But 00:14:18.200 --> 00:14:20.279 not the real deal. Not the real deal. And that 00:14:20.279 --> 00:14:23.159 like, you know, even if we keep making computers 00:14:23.159 --> 00:14:26.000 bigger, faster. Yeah. there's gonna be this wall. 00:14:26.179 --> 00:14:28.679 Right, fundamental limit. Yeah, and he's putting 00:14:28.679 --> 00:14:31.559 his money on quantum mechanics as the reason 00:14:31.559 --> 00:14:34.139 why. Yeah, the quantum realm. Yeah, specifically 00:14:34.139 --> 00:14:36.500 this thing called the collapse of the wave function. 00:14:36.840 --> 00:14:38.639 Right, which he thinks is like the secret sauce 00:14:38.639 --> 00:14:41.159 of consciousness. Right, and it's like this process 00:14:41.159 --> 00:14:44.360 that's so weird. It really is. So mysterious 00:14:44.360 --> 00:14:46.840 that like our current computers can't even touch 00:14:46.840 --> 00:14:49.840 it. Like it's operating on a whole other level. 00:14:49.980 --> 00:14:51.519 A whole other level, and it makes you wonder 00:14:51.519 --> 00:14:55.929 like... you know, maybe there are parts of reality, 00:14:56.129 --> 00:14:58.049 parts of consciousness that we haven't even begun 00:14:58.049 --> 00:15:01.129 to understand. Absolutely. Let alone like program 00:15:01.129 --> 00:15:03.350 into a machine. Right, like we're still figuring 00:15:03.350 --> 00:15:05.230 out the basics of what's going on in our own 00:15:05.230 --> 00:15:08.210 heads. Right, exactly. So Penrose might be right 00:15:08.210 --> 00:15:10.929 about the quantum stuff, or he might be wrong. 00:15:10.950 --> 00:15:14.009 Yeah. But I think what's really interesting is 00:15:14.009 --> 00:15:16.389 that even if he's wrong about the specifics, 00:15:16.990 --> 00:15:18.830 he might still be pointing to something really 00:15:18.830 --> 00:15:21.639 important. I agree with you. Like this idea that 00:15:21.639 --> 00:15:24.159 maybe there's a limit to what computers can do. 00:15:24.259 --> 00:15:26.379 Right, even without the quantum stuff. Even without 00:15:26.379 --> 00:15:28.679 the quantum stuff. You know, like a ceiling to 00:15:28.679 --> 00:15:30.519 computable intelligence. Yeah. What if there 00:15:30.519 --> 00:15:33.740 are some problems, some kinds of creative leaps 00:15:33.740 --> 00:15:36.320 or intuitive insights that you just can't get? 00:15:36.340 --> 00:15:38.799 Right. Through pure number crunching. Maybe there's 00:15:38.799 --> 00:15:40.200 something more. Something more, and it makes 00:15:40.200 --> 00:15:43.360 you think about, like, art. music, love. Those 00:15:43.360 --> 00:15:45.899 deep human experiences. Yeah, there's deep human 00:15:45.899 --> 00:15:50.139 experiences that maybe AI just can't replicate. 00:15:50.179 --> 00:15:52.879 Maybe. No matter how sophisticated it gets. Yeah, 00:15:53.000 --> 00:15:55.279 it's humbling. It is. It's really humbling. Yeah. 00:15:55.480 --> 00:15:59.580 And I think it's a good reminder that as we get 00:15:59.580 --> 00:16:03.190 swept up in all this AI... That's all the amazing 00:16:03.190 --> 00:16:05.809 things it can do. We need to take a step back 00:16:05.809 --> 00:16:09.190 and appreciate those unique qualities. Yeah, 00:16:09.210 --> 00:16:11.370 those unique qualities that might actually be 00:16:11.370 --> 00:16:15.389 beyond the reach of machines. Right. So to wrap 00:16:15.389 --> 00:16:18.309 this all up, I think the big question Penrose 00:16:18.309 --> 00:16:20.970 leaves us with is, is there something fundamentally 00:16:20.970 --> 00:16:25.149 different about human intelligence that will 00:16:25.149 --> 00:16:29.789 always set us apart? Yeah. from AI, or will machines 00:16:29.789 --> 00:16:32.389 eventually catch up? And surpass us. And surpass 00:16:32.389 --> 00:16:34.730 us proving Penrose wrong. It's a question we'll 00:16:34.730 --> 00:16:37.129 have to keep exploring. Exactly. So keep those 00:16:37.129 --> 00:16:39.450 brains buzzing. Keep asking those tough questions. 00:16:39.590 --> 00:16:42.549 And until next time, keep diving deep. Yeah, 00:16:42.750 --> 00:16:44.370 stay curious out there, folks. We'll see you 00:16:44.370 --> 00:16:45.490 on the next deep dive.