Welcome back, deep divers.
Ready for another deep dive?
Always.
Okay, so today we're gonna be tackling AI
and the future of jobs.
Ooh, interesting.
Yeah, we've got the super interesting interview
with Gilbert Hungbo.
Okay.
He's the director general
of the international labor organization, the ILO.
Right, right.
And by the end of this deep dive,
I think we'll have a much better understanding
of how AI is going to reshape the career landscape.
I'm ready.
All right, so right off the bat,
Hungbo doesn't sugarcoat anything.
He's like, yeah, AI is gonna lead
to millions of jobs being lost.
Wow, he just puts it out there, huh?
But, and here's the thing.
He also says that AI is gonna create millions of jobs.
Okay, so it's kind of, it's a double-edged sword then.
It is, he calls it a job churn.
A job churn, so it's not just a simple,
like robots are taking over.
No, no.
It's more nuanced, like a shift.
Exactly, yeah, some jobs go away,
but different ones are created.
Like a wave, you know?
Okay.
Like a big wave hitting the shore.
Okay.
And some people, unfortunately, they get swept away.
Yeah.
But some people learn how to ride that wave.
I like that analogy.
And they find new opportunities.
And that's really what he's emphasized.
Yeah.
Like being adaptable and always learning new skills.
Like you have to be ready to learn new things
your whole career.
Exactly, it's not enough to just learn one thing and be set.
And this isn't just about factory jobs, right?
Right, not at all.
This is impacting everyone.
Absolutely, it's across the board.
Yeah, so Hungbo gives some examples.
He talks about interpreters, like translators,
being replaced by AI powered translation tools.
Yeah, that makes sense.
And then recruiters using AI to like go through tons
of resumes.
Right, to sort through them all.
And even speech writers feeling the pressure of AI.
Speech writers, so even creative jobs.
Yeah, yeah.
That's why.
It's a little unsettling to me, honestly.
I mean, I work in communications.
Right.
So the idea of like an AI writing a speech first,
it's a little scary.
Is it really that good though, these AI writers?
Well, I mean, they're getting better all the time.
Yeah, that's true.
Technology is always changing.
But the important thing to remember
is that for now, it's more about augmentation, not
replacement.
So AI is like a tool.
Exactly.
Not a replacement.
Like a powerful tool that we can use to be more efficient.
OK, I like that.
Like think of it like a carpenter with a new power foe.
OK, yeah.
It makes their job e-ear, but it doesn't replace the carpenter.
Right, the carpenter still has to know what they're doing.
Exactly.
They just have a new tool to help them do it better.
So it's more about humans and AI working together.
Like a partnership.
Yeah.
But I do wonder about how this will
affect different groups of workers.
Oh, yeah, for sure.
Humbo actually expresses concern about women
being disproportionately impacted.
Oh, that's interesting.
Why?
Well, he points out that a lot of women currently
have clerical jobs.
OK.
Like administrative work.
And those are the jobs that could be most easily automated.
Exactly.
If you think about a big company and all the admin tasks,
a lot of those could be done by AI.
And that could lead to job losses in those areas.
Right.
And if women are predominantly holding those jobs,
then they would be the one that most affected.
It's a real concern.
Yeah.
That raises a lot of quenches about how
we can ensure a fair transition as AI becomes more integrated.
Absolutely.
And this is where he talks about the ILO's
tripartite structure.
OK, what's that?
So they bring together governments, employers,
and trade unions to discuss these issues
and find solutions that work for everyone.
So it's like everyone has a C at the table.
It is.
It's like a three-legged stool.
You need all three legs to be strong.
I see.
So governments can set policies, employers
can invest in training.
OK.
And unions can fight for workers' rights.
So it's not just about the technology.
It's about the social impact.
Exactly.
We have to develop new models of work, education,
and social safety nets.
So everyone benefits from this revolution.
Right.
Not just to select few.
I bet some people are listening and thinking,
well, if AI is such a threat, why haven't we
seen mass layoffs yet?
Yeah, that's a good point.
Like, where is the evidence of this happening?
Well, Hungbo acknowledges that.
OK.
He argues that the changes are already happening.
OK.
But they're often subtle and gradual.
So it's not enmermatic as we might imagine.
Right.
He gives the example of international organizations
replacing interpreters.
With AI.
Yeah, with AI-powered tools.
So it's not mass layoffs, but it's a shift in demand.
It's like a slow burn.
It's a gradual process.
Exactly.
He describes it like a fast-moving train that's
picking up steam.
Ooh, I like that visual.
You might not see the full impact
until it's right in front of you.
Wow.
So just because we don't see those big headlines
about job losses.
That doesn't mean it's not happening.
Exactly.
It might just be less obvious.
Yeah.
It's a little happening.
And that makes it even more important to be proactive.
Absolutely.
We can't just wait and react.
We need to prepare for these changes.
Exactly.
And that's what we're going to talk about next.
OK.
I'm ready.
So it feels like we're at this crossroads.
You know?
Like, we've got this amazed to technology AI.
But there's all this anxiety about what
it means for jobs, for society.
Like a real tension, right?
And I think Honbo, he gets that.
He acknowledges it.
He's not like, oh, Ro-Ra, AI is going to fix everything.
But he's also not like doom and gloom.
Yeah.
He's looking for that balance.
Exactly.
Yeah.
He's saying, embrace the innovation.
But be aware of the risks.
Right.
Exactly.
And there's this really interesting thing he brings up
about AI, maybe not just increasing productivity,
but actually reducing working hours.
Oh, wow.
While keeping salaries the same.
Yeah.
That's a different perspective.
Yeah.
It's like, whoa, what does AI actually gave us more free time?
Instead of just making us work harder and faster.
Exactly.
Like, it challenges the whole idea of work-life balance.
It does.
It really does.
Like, what if work was just one part of a fulfilling life,
not the whole thing?
It's like, AI could give us the tools to rethink everything.
Yeah.
But I'm sure some people will be like, no way.
That'll ruin the economy.
I'll be different.
Like, less work equals less productivity.
That's the traditional thinking.
Right.
But Hongbo is saying, let's at least have the conversation.
We can challenge those assumptions.
Yeah.
Like, what do we actually value?
Is it just about working all the time?
That's a good question.
Or is it about, like, living a good life?
Right.
And maybe AI can help us achieve that.
And I think a lot of people are worried that, you know,
AI is just going to make inequality worse.
Oh, absolutely.
That's a huge concern.
Like, the rich get richer, the poor get poorer.
Yeah.
And Hongbo talks about the digital divide.
The what?
The digital divide.
So, like, not everyone has equal access to technology and data.
Ah.
OK.
So if AI is built on data from wealthy countries,
then it's likely that those countries will benefit the most.
And everyone else gets left behind.
It's a real danger.
Yeah.
So it's not just the tech itself.
It's who has access to it.
That's a crucial point.
Absolutely.
Well, it's not all bad news, right?
No.
Not at all.
Hongbo does highlight some positive examples.
Oh, good.
Like what?
He talks about this partnership in France
between Mistral AI and the employment agency.
OK.
And they're using chat bots to help people find jobs.
Interesting.
How does that work?
So imagine you're looking for a job.
Yeah.
And you don't have time to look through all the job boards.
It can be so overwhelming.
Yeah.
So this chat bot talks to you, figures out your skills.
OK.
And then matches you with potential jobs.
Oh, that's actually really cool.
Yeah.
It could be a really helpful tool.
Especially if it's accessible to everyone.
Exactly.
That's the key.
Like, it has to be designed in a way that's fair and equitable.
So it's not about the AI being good or bad.
It's about how we use it.
It's a tool.
And we have to use it responsibly.
Right.
We have to think about the consequences.
And that brings us back to those conversations
between governments, employers, and unions.
Right.
That tripartite structure that Humbo emphasized.
Yeah.
Like, everyone needs to be involved.
To ensure that AI benefits everyone.
He said that companies are, like, generally open to these ideas.
OK.
That's good.
But actually putting them into action, that's the hard part.
Yeah.
It's always easier said than done.
And I think education has a big role to play here.
Oh, absolutely.
On multiple levels.
Yeah.
Like, preparing young people for these new jobs.
That's essential.
But it's also about educating everyone.
But AI.
Yeah.
Like, regardless of your age or job.
So we can all understand what's happening.
And participate in shaping the future of AI.
It's like we need a new kind of literacy.
AI literacy.
I love that.
AI literacy, yes.
So we can be informed, engaged citizens.
And advocates for responsible development.
And we can start by asking questions, right?
Absolutely.
Like, what are the potential biases in AI?
How do we make sure it benefits everyone?
Those are the important questions.
Yeah.
And they're not easy to answer.
No. But we have to grapple with them.
If we want AI to make the world a better place.
Exactly.
That's the goal.
And that brings us to another big question.
What's that?
What about the impact of AI on education itself?
Oh, yeah.
Like, are robots going to replace teachers?
Will our kids be learning from algorithms?
That's a scary thought for some people.
Yeah.
And Hanungo, he doesn't think human teachers are going away
anytime soon.
OK.
That's good to hear.
But he does think AI will transform education.
So how will it change?
Well, imagine personalized learning.
Oh, wow.
Where AI tailors the content to each student.
Like a personal tutor for everyone?
Yeah.
And it could make education more accessible.
To people who maybe can't go to traditional schools?
Exactly.
Like in remote areas or conflict zones.
That would be amazing.
But there are downsides too, right?
Of course we can't forget that them an element.
Like, teachers do so much more than just deliver information.
They nurture critical thinking, empathy,
all those important things.
That AI can't replicate.
At least not yet.
So it's about finding that balance again.
Right.
Technology and humanity working together.
And that's a theme that keeps coming up, right?
It does, yeah.
Like with AI and jobs, AI and education.
It's about finding the right way
to integrate these technologies into our lives.
And Hanungo's final point is really important.
What's that?
He says AI isn't inherently good or bad.
It's a tool.
Exactly.
And it's up to us to decide how we use it.
To shape the future we want.
So deep divers, we've covered a lot today.
We have.
It's been a wild ride.
From the threats to the opportunities of AI.
The ethical dilemmas, the philosophical questions.
And one thing is clear.
AI is here to stay.
It's not science fiction anymore.
It's already impacting our lives.
And it's only going to become more powerful.
So the question is, what are we going to do about it?
How are we going to navigate this new world?
Yeah, it does feel like we're standing on the edge
of this massive change.
Right, like this huge shift.
And it's both exciting and kind of scary.
Yeah, I get that.
So how do we even begin to navigate this,
this new world with AI everywhere?
Well, I think what Humbo is saying
is that we have more power than we think.
It's not like this predetermined future.
We actually get to make choices that shape it.
So we're not just like, along for the ride.
Nope, we're not passive passengers.
We can actually steer the direction of it.
Yeah, exactly.
We can grab the wheel, so to speak.
How do we do that?
Like, how do we take control?
Well, it starts with being informed.
Like, actually understanding how AI works, what it can
and can't do.
So like, doing our own research.
Yeah, and not being afraid to ask questions.
To be critical, to think for ourselves.
Exactly, because there's so much hype around AI.
Yeah, it's hard to know what to believe sometimes.
Right, so we need to develop that critical thinking.
Like, what did you call it before?
AI literacy?
Yeah, AI literacy.
We need to be able to spot the BS.
Exactly, to separate the reel from the exaggerated claims.
OK, so Deep Divers, we've been on this journey today with AI.
We have, we've gone deep.
Explored the potential job losses, the new opportunities.
Talk about the ethical challenges,
the philosophical questions.
And I think we can all agree, AI is here to stay.
It's not going anywhere.
It's already changing the world as we know it.
And it's likely going to get more powerful.
So what does this mean for you listening right now?
What can you do to get ready for this AI-powered future?
Yeah, like, practical steps.
Well, first of all, stay curious.
OK.
Keep learning, read articles, listen to podcasts like this one.
Chainless plug.
Maybe take some online courses.
Yeah, there's so much information out there.
And don't be afraid to talk about it.
Have conversations.
Yeah, with your friends, family, colleagues.
Like, what do you think about all this?
Exactly, because the more we talk about it,
the more prepared we'll be.
And the better choices we can make.
So it's about taking action, not just sitting back
and letting it happen.
Right, we have agency.
We can shape this future.
And ultimately, it's about using AI for good.
To make the world a better place.
And on that note, Deep Divers, we've
reached the end of our Deep Dive.
It's been a pleasure diving deep with you.
We hope you've learned something new today.
And that you feel inspired to take action.
Thanks for joining us.
Until next time.
Bye.