Catherine Kuhlman often stated, I believe in
miracles. In this informative discussion at a
Melodyland conference, Ms. Kuhlman shared the
deepest insights of her heart on the ministry
of healing. This is part two of that series.
The next question here was, is it God's will
to heal all of the sick? You know, we'll get
there. The real answer from the master one of
these days. The real answer. If I could answer
all of these questions, I would be God. There's
only one who's perfect wisdom. There's only one
who is perfect knowledge. To the answer to that
question, I can only give you my personal opinion.
That's all. You see... When you're young and
you're inexperienced, you are very quick to answer
questions. You think you have all the answers.
But when you get more mature and you have deeper
experiences and you become better acquainted
with the Holy Spirit, you see things very differently.
Years ago, I wrote a little book. Let me see.
The name of the book was... Oh. It's a little
red book. That's all that I know. It was about
Lydia, and she touched the hem of a garment.
It's been so many years ago. And in that book,
I made a very definite statement. It was so definite.
It was so... I said that definitely. It was the
perfect will of God that all be healed. That's
when I was young and inexperienced. Today, those
who read that little tiny booklet, It's just
only a few pages. It's red. I want you to know
that I'm not so sure. In this, and this is very
personal. This, again, is personal. I can only
tell you from personal experiences how one lives.
There is someone that I know. A young man, 19
years of age, who just a couple of weeks ago
had a very serious accident. Very serious. In
fact, the accident was so serious that had it
not been for the mercy of God, there might have
been a leg amputation. 19 years of age. But what
nobody knew was the fact that just three months
ago, that same young man came to me and questioned
the reality of God. It's another thing that has
taken place in college. It's another thing, the
influence of a psychology teacher. I'm telling
you what I know. I'm telling you from personal
experience. Here's a young man who was brought
up, a Christian mother who's had all the influence
of spiritual things, a young man marvelously
born again. The influence of the spirit has stood
up and spoken before Christian young people groups
and yet came to me not more than three months
ago and said to me, how do I know? How do I know?
How can I be? I said, as I look at... Ain't never
so shocked in my life. Exactly two weeks ago,
that young man had an accident, and they thought
for a while that leg would have to be amputated.
The good -looking, handsome young fella, 19 years
of age, for two weeks. He's been there on the
flat of his back for two weeks. And even now,
there's a crisis. And just a few days ago, somebody
said, why does God allow things to happen to
his children? Why? Why? I know why God allowed
that to happen to that young man. It's the only
way he could get him to think. It's the only
way. Child of mine, I love you enough. And I
believe in the love of God. I believe whom the
Lord loveth, he chasteneth. I would believe me
if I... could this very hour. If my mama were
standing right here, unashamedly, I would kneel
and kiss my mother's feet and say to her mama,
I'm glad you disciplined me. I'm glad you were
strict with me. I'm glad you didn't let me do
what the other kids did. And for that day, when
that Rother girl came to our home and begged
and begged and begged for you to let me stay
all night at her house when we were just 13 -year
-old kids. And I bawled and I said, Mama, but
all the other kids are doing it. All of the other
kids are doing it. Mama, please. The other kids
are doing it. And Mama just stood there and shook
her. We said, no. I don't care what the other
children are doing. You're not going to stay
all night. When night comes, your bed is here.
You're going to be home at the age of 15. That
girl was rushed to the hospital. They removed
her illegitimate child, and the child, the unborn
child, was so eaten with disease, they had to
remove it piece by piece. Peace. And she died
on the operating table. I'm glad for a mother
who loved me enough to be strict with me. I thank
my mother that she loved me enough not to let
me do whatever I wanted to do. Whom the Lord
loveth, he chasteth. And, beloved, a God in perfect
wisdom and perfect knowledge, it's the same thing
as somebody said, if I had a million dollars,
what I'd do with it. If you had a million dollars,
you'd backslide. Because you aren't being faithful
with the $10 you have now. He couldn't trust
you with anymore. I cannot say this is my own
personal answer. I cannot say it is God's perfect
will because God knows how you would use your
healing and what you would do if. You were healed.
I leave it to God's perfect wisdom and God's
perfect knowledge. How many understand? Put it
back. Someone wants to know how old you are,
Ms. Kuhlman. I'm old enough to vote. Good enough.
That's good enough. And as a woman, it's a wolf.
A man wouldn't dare. I'll stay. When do you think
Jesus is coming back in person? The approximate
year. I think one would be very foolish. Remember
something. Say, how many are enjoying this? Put
up a hand. Oh, that's good. I sure am. Now remember
something. Stay with the scripture. And I want
to say to you folks, let me just give you this
word of advice. When anybody starts making a
definite prediction as to a given date, a given
time, that one is speaking in error because the
Bible says the times and the seasons will know.
We don't know the times and the seasons, and
we know, we know if you've got an ounce of spirituality.
If you know the scripture at all, you know that
when the leaves begin to turn, you know that,
of course, out here in California, I'm talking
about the folks in the east. When the leaves
begin to turn, somebody says, well. We're coming
into fall now, you know. Sure. And at the close
of winter, when you begin to see the trees begin
to bud, you say, well, we're not going to have
to travel over ice much longer. We're not going
to have snow much longer. Why? Because it's spring,
the times and the seasons, and we know. We know
without fear of contradiction that we're at the
very threshold of the rapture of the church.
We know that. We know that. It can take place.
We can have the break catching up. We can have
the rapture of the church before I will have
finished speaking. And no Bible student can say
that he had the rapture. Too soon. So far as
I know, not one thing has to be fulfilled because,
beloved, the tribulation begins after the great
catching up, as it was in the days of Noah. Remember,
the warning was given, and the door of the ark
was shut. Before the rains came, not a drop of
water got in the ark. Not a drop of the floodwaters
got into the ark. God shut the door. God closed
that door. The great rapture of the church is
a way of escape. It isn't. a time for the perfecting
of the saints. Know that. There are those who
feel that the saints have to go through the great
tribulation. We're not having the tribulation
for the perfecting of the saints. If you aren't
ready right now, if you aren't ready right now,
going through the tribulation will not make you
any more ready. It is not for the perfecting
of the saints. or this church. It's the time
when God keeps his earthly covenants with the
Jews, with Israel. And we have the great catching
up before judgment strikes. And I don't want
to be here one second after the rapture of the
church because this great constraining power,
the Holy Spirit, will be gone. But the Bible
says, the day and the hour knoweth no man. The
day and the hour, not even the angels in heaven.
If God hasn't told the angels in glory, what
month, what day, what hour, he's not going to
tell you and he's not going to tell me. How many
believe I'm right? That is one thing that he
has reserved unto himself. That is one thing
that he's reserved. So that when anybody comes
and says, the Lord is going to come, we're going
to have the rapture of the church, such and such
a day, such and such a month, such and such an
hour, you say, brother, That is not scripture.
The times, the seasons, we know. But the day
and the hour knoweth no man. I'm talking about
the rapture. When it comes to the second coming
of the Lord Jesus Christ, and it comes back to
earth in bodily form, that will take place exactly
seven years. after the rapture of the church,
the great catching up. How many say that? Put
up a hand. Now, be careful. Let the enemy get
you off on a limb and somebody begins predicting
a month, a day, or an hour. If somebody gets
a message and you think it's from God, And in
that message, and you think it's of the Spirit,
and in that message, there's a definite day and
a definite hour you've heard from the wrong spirit.
Amen. Thank you, Catherine Cuban. We're in the
Charismatic Clinic and Christian Center in Anaheim.
And someone said that in the shrine service that
you have each month in Los Angeles, They wanted
to know, do you actually see the man or the woman
in the spirit when you say that someone up in
a certain section is receiving his healing? Or
do you experience some reaction in your own physical
body that you know about it? How does this work?
All right, I'll answer this as the best that
I can. I tried to talk about that this morning.
Do you understand there's some things that are
of the spirit? For instance, a few minutes ago,
when these men were telling of their experiences,
those who went on the power for the very first
time, could you really, do you have it in your
vocabulary to really express what happened when
you were filled with the Spirit? Could you really?
You can't. And when it comes to that which I
experience, Sometimes for 15 minutes at a time,
after a service was over, somebody will say,
well, you remember that woman that did so -and
-so and so -and -so? I don't know one thing about
it. Or someone will testify and say, Ms. Kuhlman
said that there is so -and -so over here to her
right. And she said that person and described
me and all about it. I have no recollection of
it whatsoever. None. I can go through 15, 20
minutes, 30 minutes of a service and not be aware
of a single personality. Take for instance the
Shrine Auditorium. 7 ,000 people there. I can
go over that length of time and not be conscious
of a single personality, not one. I am only conscious
of the Holy Spirit. I am following Him. I don't
know if you understand what I mean or not. You
become, the best I can say, a violin. That violin
means nothing. Absolutely. Unless there is the
master hand that takes that bow. And when that
master violinist takes that bow and those strings
key so perfectly those strings are so tight they're
sensitive to the master who holds that oh i'm
nothing but the old violin case and i become
so sensitive I follow him. I watch him. That's
the reason sometimes all I can say is, it's waves
of glory in this place. It's waves of glory in
this place. There is something that almost lifts
me out of my body. You say to me, Catherine Kuhlman,
how can you work the way you do? You still live?
15, 16 years ago, Dr. Miller visited me and he
said, I can't let you die. I can't let you die.
I've watched you work as surgeon in Pittsburgh
for years on the stack of Shadyside Hospital.
He said I know enough about the physical body
that no physical body can take the beating that
your body takes. I know the physical body. I
can't stand by and see a body beaten like yours
and take what your body is taking. You've got
the letter. Dr. Miller's dead and I'm still going.
I'll tell you what it is. Something happens to
me. There is a refreshee in my own body. It's
the resurrection power that goes through my own
body. You men who get so whipped after 30 minutes.
that you have to take the rest of the week off
to rest. You make me sick. You haven't learned
the secret. You haven't learned the secret. If
you're a pastor, after 30 minutes, If all that
he preaches is from half past 11 to 12 o 'clock,
30 minutes, and he's memorized his sermon at
that, and after those 30 minutes, he has to take
six days off to rest from the 30 minutes, there's
something wrong someplace. For when you preach
in the Spirit, There is a refreshing for your
own body that comes from the spirit. And it's
just like that. No. There is no sensation in
my own body. If you want to know whether there's
some sensation in my hand. No. No. Is there some
power flowing through my... No. No. All I can
tell you is that sometimes I get so filled with
the Spirit I can hardly stand on my feet, you
know. And I think, oh dear, Jesus is going to
look just awful if I'm flat here on the flat
of my back like a lizard flattened out in the
sun before all these people. What am I going
to do, you know? It's just kind of like this.
Somebody, you know, and there are times when
my own body Every part of me just vibrates with
the power of God. But it isn't that there's any
healing virtue that flows through my hands. It's
the power of the Holy Spirit who does it. And
he is the one who gives the spiritual revelation.
Not me. How many stand? Put up a hand. Stand
up just for a moment. Stretch, huh? Wonderful.
You're listening to Charismatic Clinic and I'm
Christian Sinner. And tonight, Reverend David
Duplessis will be here with us. Final night of
the clinic. I love your plan to be with us. Radio
station KHOF 99 .5 Los Angeles. You may be seated,
folks. Oh, dear goodness, the light. All right,
sit down, because I'm only going to go on about
seven minutes longer, and that's all. Seven minutes.
Yeah, that's all. Somebody said, oh, sit down.
That's all right. Oh, God love you. How many
really are enjoying this? When I say three, say
amen. No, I haven't said three yet. When I say
three, say amen. And there was a preacher that
started with that amen. All right. One, two,
three. Well, if you aren't, get up and go out
because there's some people on the outside who'd
love to come in, you know. He's coming here learning
something. Put up a hand. All right. Say hi to
all those over in the annex, Ms. Kuhlman, will
you? Just wave at them. They're on the closed
door. Hi. Thank you. Come on over if you can
get in. They can't. Ms. Kuhlman, they say here
they recognize God's power in the services here
at Christian Center. and also at the shrine.
Is not this same manifestation of the Spirit
needed in our denominational churches today?
And you say it is, but how can we get it into
these churches, and how can this happen? Now
remember, of this ministry, of praying for the
sick, there's a plan in God's Word for the church.
Call for the elders of the church. Anointing
them with oil. And the prayer of faith shall
save the sick. I wouldn't have a man on my board.
I wouldn't have a deacon. I wouldn't have an
elder. Now we get into some deep things. I could
talk like this because I don't have a church.
It was never in the plan of God. Never. I'd be
completely out of the will of the Lord if I were
to build a church. That's not my calling. That
is not my ministry. Very definitely it is not.
Understand that. If I would go off... and build
a church. Reverend Mr. Wilkerson is a pastor.
He's a pastor. Now, back home in Pittsburgh,
there are literally hundreds of people who call
me a pastor. But I don't have a church. You understand?
I have never, and I'll tell you why. I, Carnegie
Ritramnar's side, is a city -owned building.
Big Carnegie Music Hall, we rent that. The Stambaugh
Auditorium, we rent that. Wherever I go, I take
civic auditoriums because that is my ministry.
And in ready -lease auditoriums, then I get everybody.
I get people who do not feel free to attend a
church. People who haven't been in church in
years and years will come to a public auditorium.
And then I go fishing. Do you understand that?
Yeah. And so, even though some may call me a
pastor, instead of building a church here in
the United States, this ministry has built...
21 mission stations on foreign fields. I build
all my churches on foreign fields. How many think
that's a good idea? And it's just like that.
But would it be something if everybody built
their churches on foreign fields? That's the
reason we thank God for Pastor Wilkerson. And
we thank our God for the pastors here. That is
a part of God's great plan. But I was never called
to be a pastor. Never. Never. God has certain
work for certain individuals. Certain colleagues.
I've been asked over and over again, why, Ms.
Coleman, why do you think that Billy Graham doesn't
pray for the sick? Is it a lack of spirituality?
A thousand times no. Don't you ever question
his spirituality because he doesn't pray for
the sick. That is his ministry. Don't you ever.
There are those who'd be quick to say if he were
more spiritual. Don't you dare. I cannot feel
his shoes and neither can he feel my shoes. His
ministry is a ministry of salvation. How many
understand that? Put up a hand. His calling is
one thing. My calling is another. God has given
me this ministry. Whatever it is, I wonder myself,
what is it? Whatever it is, Rel, but for every
pastor in the country to try to either imitate
Billy Graham or to imitate me, you may be out
of the will of God in doing so. How many understand
that? Put up a hand. And it's like that. you
dare not get anyone on your board unless that
one is in perfect harmony and unity with you.
If I had a church, if I was a pastor, I would
not have a man serving on the board who was not
in one accord with me. I'd get rid of that man
so fast you wouldn't see him. I don't care what
influence he has. That is one of the secrets
if I could tell you, if I could only tell you.
How can I say there is a secret in oneness in
the spirit? There has got to be a oneness in
the spirit. There has got to be. It's got to
be. It's got to be. It's just got to be. It's
just got to be. One man can throw a monkey wrench
in the whole thing. One man can read the Holy
Spirit. Rap as long as you have men on your board.
As long as you have men working with you. For
in oneness of the Spirit with you, there's no
limit to what God will do for you. But the very
second you get somebody in who'll throw a monkey
wrench in the thing, because you see, the Holy
Spirit is easily grieved. I don't think any of
you know how sensitive the Holy Spirit is. Well,
in the Bible, he's likened unto a dove. The gentlest
of all birds. I wish I could tell you. That's
the reason you may feel that I'm very strict
in the service. Because I don't allow certain
things. It isn't me. Whispering. When people
are talking. Two people are talking. It can greet
the Holy Spirit just like that. I can tell you.
I can tell you like that. When I walk on the
platform and the power of God begins falling,
if there's anybody sitting behind me who is not
with me in the Spirit, I can tell you. I can
tell you. I can tell you. Many a time I could
stop. and point to someone sitting on the preacher's
row and point my finger right at them and rebuke
that critical spirit. In the upper room, they
were all with one accord. The Holy Spirit did
not descend upon them. until they were all with
one accord. Oh, the early church was glorious.
They had all things in common. Oh, it was marvelous.
It was glorious. As long as they all had that
wonderful love of Jesus and there was perfect
unity there, it was glorious. But, beloved, just
as soon... As one of them started to pull. And
another. And another. That's when any church
will begin losing out spiritually. When they
are no longer in one accord. How many of you
preachers understand? Put up a hand. I don't
care how much your geekity gets. I don't care
how much that elder gives. He's not with you
and there's not the oneness in the spirit. Call
them aside and say, Brother, there must be perfect
harmony, even as the Father, the Son, and the
Holy Spirit. Remember, separate persons, separate
personalities, but the Holy Spirit never works
apart from the Father. He never works apart from
Jesus. Jesus never worked apart from the Holy
Spirit nor the Father. Three persons, but the
three in one. One in unity and harmony. Want
me to quit on that? Ms. Cooman, we're getting
too much out of it. How many of you would like
for it to go on ten more minutes, huh? It'll
be four o 'clock then. That's when we're supposed
to go off. Okay. Could you allow four minutes?
How many are getting tired of it? Stand up. Nobody
stands. All right. Just ten more minutes. All
right. Please explain why women are to preach
the gospel and are not to keep silent in the
church. Why they're not to keep silent in the
church. Why women... preach the gospel and i
don't know they're trying to bring up the verse
well i still think if he could have found a man
to do the job that i'm doing he never would have
called me i think the answer that came one day
in the shrine was one of pastor came up and said
you just declare you're a handmaiden but he says
he wished he could do as much as a handmaiden
Here's another question about a person wanting
to know, why is it that some people in the services
receive the gift of the Holy Spirit, some of
them do not when you're praying for them? Why
some receive the gift. Now, of course, you see,
you're talking about the baptism of the Holy
Spirit, right, Ralph? Right. Of course, now this.
Why did they have to tarry in the upper room?
I can just imagine in that upper room. Do you
see they tarried? And I can imagine John praying
like a house of fire when he's got... Time to
rest a bit. He opened his eyes and looked around.
He saw Peter praying. He thought, you old rascal,
you'll never be filled with the Holy Spirit.
I know so many bad things about you. Oh. I do
not believe that one is filled with the Spirit.
until they are in a position to be filled with
the Spirit. Do you understand what I'm talking
about? This thing of being filled with the Holy
Spirit is something very precious. And you don't
put something very precious In an old dirty container.
You don't do it. If you've got something very
precious. There's got to be a cleansing. There
has got to be a cleansing. Before that. Wine,
take that miracle at the wedding at Cana. We
talk about the wine, Jesus turning the water
into wine. But had you ever thought, and so much
emphasis is placed on the wine. But before there
was ever the wine, that's the symbol of the Holy
Spirit. And Jesus could have just spoken the
word. And those empty bottles, those empty containers,
those empty pots could have immediately been
filled with the wine. He could have spoken just
one word. And he had the power in that split
second to have filled every... empty pot to have
filled every empty bottle to have filled every
empty vessel with wine. But he didn't. There
was water first. There was water first. And it
takes the blood of Jesus Christ, God's Son, to
cleanse us. the water of everlasting life, the
water that I shall give. And when there is that
glorious cleansing by the blood of the Son of
the living God, and when you're in that position
where you can look up and say, none of self.
Let self be crucified, but all of thee. And there's
that complete surrender. And you give yourself
completely unto him, for he feels that which
you yield unto him. He'll never feel an unclean
vest, never with the Holy Spirit. But when you
get to that place, you've been cleansed by the
blood of Jesus Christ. And you become yielded
unto him. And that hunger, blessed is he who
hungers and thirsts after righteousness. There
must be that hunger. But beloved, when that hunger
comes, keep your eyes on Jesus. is the one to
be filled, you praise Jesus. And in that moment,
you will receive that for which every atom of
your being longs for. Here's the final question.
A person has had a real experience with God in
the charismatic clinic. But is still having some
problem with the cigarette habit. He wants to
know, is this an addiction, or is it demonically
caused, or what can he do about it? That's a
good question. All right, I'll be very frank.
This is my last question. I've enjoyed today.
I've enjoyed this. I have never in my life ever
preached a sermon. against cigarettes. I've never
preached a sermon against dress. I've never preached
a sermon against liquor. I have never preached
a sermon against these things. I'll tell you
why. And yet, beloved, watch something. Don't
you dare... Use that which I have said as the
license for doing any of these. I'm not talking
about that. I believe that we need to preach
a positive gospel. It's positive. It's positive.
It's a positive gospel. It is not my business
to preach a negative gospel. To preach against
it. It is my business to lift up Jesus Christ.
I lift up Jesus. I lift up Jesus. Pastor, if
all you've got to preach about when you get up
in the pulpit is about the miniskirts and the
long hair and the way people look, I still contend
that... When you are born again, you'll get a
new plumage. I believe that. You'll never hear
Catherine Pullman ever preach against these things.
Never. As long as I'm faithful in lifting up
Jesus, I lift up Jesus, I lift up Jesus in all
of his beauty. And I, if I be lifted up, I will
draw all men unto me. And when you get that wonderful
experience and your life is transformed by the
power of God, there's something about it. And
you've listened to the radio and you've heard
the testimony over and over and over again of
many a man who has said, You know something wonderful?
I went out of that service, that miracle service,
I lit up my cigarette and it didn't taste good.
It was just awful. And then instead I tried a
different brand. You know, the filter kind. And
that didn't work. And then I tried another. did
you hear the man and i said to him well i didn't
say anything about cigarettes no you didn't say
anything about cigarettes you didn't say a thing
about cigarettes i didn't say it but when that
man was born again and when the spirit of the
living god got hold of him These old feathers
just naturally dropped off. He became a new creature
in Christ Jesus and the things you once loved,
you now hate. All right, I'm going to answer
a question. I do not know who answered that question.
I do not know who asked it. I do know that one
day a pastor stood in the center aisle of Carnegie
Auditorium. And his wife brought him. He'd been
living in adultery. And they stood there. She
was crying. She said, my husband. And the only
reason he was there was because he'd been caught.
I said, sir, to tell the truth, it would do me
no good to pray for you because you are enjoying
your sin and because you are enjoying it, you're
going to continue, you're going to walk out of
here and continue doing it just the same. It
would be insulting God for me to stand here and
make a mockery of this. I said, you're enjoying
your sin, aren't you? He said, I sure am. I said,
I can pray till I'm blue in the face. Your wife
can cry until there's no longer tears left in
her eyes. But you have to make the decision.
You have got to do it. When you are willing to
surrender that sin, God will give you deliverance.
God will give you deliverance, but he's not going
to knock you in the head and say, you know, if
you're waiting for God to take it away from you
and force you to give it up. But I'll promise
any man, I don't care who you are. I'll promise
any person that if with all of your heart, not
mine, but with all of your heart, you look out
and you really want deliverance. You really want
it. I love it. challenge me on that because God's
Word backs it up. If we confess our sins, He's
able and just to forgive us our sins. He'll set
you free. And whom the Son sets free is free
indeed. And when you're willing to give it up,
beloved, all you have to do is to furnish the
willingness and He will give the deliverance.
Amen and amen and amen.