WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:01.860 Hey everyone, welcome to the show. Great to be 00:00:01.860 --> 00:00:03.560 here. Have you ever looked at someone who's, 00:00:03.680 --> 00:00:06.000 you know, wildly successful and just thought, 00:00:06.099 --> 00:00:08.359 they've got it easy. They were just born with 00:00:08.359 --> 00:00:11.019 that magic touch. Oh, definitely. It's a common 00:00:11.019 --> 00:00:13.000 feeling, right? That some people just have it. 00:00:13.060 --> 00:00:15.560 What if that feeling, that whole assumption that 00:00:15.560 --> 00:00:19.359 talent is the golden ticket, is actually selling 00:00:19.359 --> 00:00:22.320 yourself short? What if the real power lies in 00:00:22.320 --> 00:00:25.899 something, well, something far more accessible 00:00:25.899 --> 00:00:29.280 to all of us? That feeling of innate talent. 00:00:29.679 --> 00:00:33.500 Being the only thing that matters. It's everywhere, 00:00:33.560 --> 00:00:36.320 isn't it? Yeah. We see the final result, the 00:00:36.320 --> 00:00:38.539 like effortless performance, and we kind of forget 00:00:38.539 --> 00:00:40.520 everything that went into it beforehand. Right. 00:00:40.579 --> 00:00:42.579 But underneath all that, there's usually the 00:00:42.579 --> 00:00:47.100 story of just relentless dedication and unwavering 00:00:47.100 --> 00:00:49.179 focus. Well, get ready to have those assumptions 00:00:49.179 --> 00:00:51.899 challenged. This deep dive is your backstage 00:00:51.899 --> 00:00:54.520 pass to the psychology of achievement. And trust 00:00:54.520 --> 00:00:57.369 me, the view is pretty surprising. We're dissecting 00:00:57.369 --> 00:01:01.009 the core ideas from a really captivating nonfiction 00:01:01.009 --> 00:01:04.390 book. It's completely reshaped how I think about 00:01:04.390 --> 00:01:07.049 what really separates those who reach their goals 00:01:07.049 --> 00:01:10.109 from those who, well, who don't. And if you're 00:01:10.109 --> 00:01:12.670 ready to unlock those hidden drivers of success, 00:01:13.049 --> 00:01:15.150 you know, the things that really make the difference 00:01:15.150 --> 00:01:17.730 when things get tough. Yeah. Then make sure you 00:01:17.730 --> 00:01:19.890 hit that like and subscribe button. We've got 00:01:19.890 --> 00:01:22.329 plenty more of these in -depth explorations coming 00:01:22.329 --> 00:01:24.870 your way, all designed to give you a fresh perspective. 00:01:25.290 --> 00:01:28.450 Absolutely. Today, we're plunging into Grit, 00:01:28.469 --> 00:01:31.530 the Power of Passion and Perseverance by Angela 00:01:31.530 --> 00:01:33.870 Duckworth. Great book. It really is. You can 00:01:33.870 --> 00:01:35.890 find a link to grab a copy on Amazon right there 00:01:35.890 --> 00:01:37.829 in the description below. And look, this isn't 00:01:37.829 --> 00:01:40.689 your typical feel -good self -help guide. No, 00:01:40.730 --> 00:01:43.189 it's got real research behind it. Exactly. Duckworth, 00:01:43.250 --> 00:01:45.370 she's a psychologist, and she dives deep into 00:01:45.370 --> 00:01:47.810 rigorous research to show that it's not just 00:01:47.810 --> 00:01:50.709 about how smart or talented you are. Right. It's 00:01:50.709 --> 00:01:53.349 about how consistently and passionately you pursue 00:01:53.349 --> 00:01:56.420 your long -term goals. Get ready for some serious 00:01:56.420 --> 00:01:59.519 aha moments about what truly sets high achievers 00:01:59.519 --> 00:02:02.280 apart. Our mission today is pretty straightforward, 00:02:02.579 --> 00:02:05.459 really. We want to extract the most crucial insights 00:02:05.459 --> 00:02:08.860 from Duckworth's work on talent versus what she 00:02:08.860 --> 00:02:12.419 calls grit. Right. Grit. And her research, it 00:02:12.419 --> 00:02:15.460 spans this fascinating range of high stakes environments. 00:02:15.840 --> 00:02:19.060 We're talking the intense pressure cooker of 00:02:19.060 --> 00:02:21.759 West Point's training. Wow. The national spelling, 00:02:21.900 --> 00:02:24.879 you know, all that pressure. Oh, yeah. Salespeople 00:02:24.879 --> 00:02:29.039 facing constant rejection, even the extreme demands 00:02:29.039 --> 00:02:32.500 on. green berets. So a huge range. A huge range. 00:02:32.699 --> 00:02:35.060 And our goal is to basically distill these findings 00:02:35.060 --> 00:02:38.080 into actionable knowledge, stuff you can actually 00:02:38.080 --> 00:02:40.719 use for your own ambitions. Okay, let's dive 00:02:40.719 --> 00:02:42.240 right in then. One of the things that really 00:02:42.240 --> 00:02:45.340 grabbed me early on was Duckworth's own personal 00:02:45.340 --> 00:02:48.120 story. Kind of kicks off the book. She talks 00:02:48.120 --> 00:02:52.099 about her father having a... a pretty direct 00:02:52.099 --> 00:02:54.319 opinion about her intellectual gifts or maybe 00:02:54.319 --> 00:02:56.340 lack thereof. What was that about? Yeah, it's 00:02:56.340 --> 00:02:59.159 quite a story. Her father pretty bluntly told 00:02:59.159 --> 00:03:01.860 her she wasn't a genius. Ouch. Yeah. I mean, 00:03:01.860 --> 00:03:03.400 for a lot of people, that can be really discouraging, 00:03:03.400 --> 00:03:05.780 right? Totally. But Duckworth's reaction was, 00:03:06.000 --> 00:03:08.639 well, it was pivotal. Instead of just accepting 00:03:08.639 --> 00:03:11.080 that label, she made a conscious decision. Which 00:03:11.080 --> 00:03:13.680 was? She decided she would be the grittiest person 00:03:13.680 --> 00:03:16.699 she knew. Ah, okay. So it wasn't about proving 00:03:16.699 --> 00:03:18.879 him wrong on the talent front. Exactly. It wasn't 00:03:18.879 --> 00:03:21.949 about... innate talent at all. It was about embracing 00:03:21.949 --> 00:03:25.289 the power of sheer determination and this personal 00:03:25.289 --> 00:03:29.090 drive, this ambition. It really became the seed 00:03:29.090 --> 00:03:31.889 for all her groundbreaking research on what she 00:03:31.889 --> 00:03:34.830 calls grit. So let's define that in her own words. 00:03:34.930 --> 00:03:37.689 What exactly is grit? Duckworth defines grit 00:03:37.689 --> 00:03:40.949 as this really potent blend of passion and perseverance 00:03:40.949 --> 00:03:44.490 specifically applied to long -term goals. It's 00:03:44.490 --> 00:03:47.229 not about those short, intense bursts of effort 00:03:47.229 --> 00:03:50.050 we sometimes manage. It's about sustained commitment, 00:03:50.289 --> 00:03:52.590 that unwavering dedication to something that 00:03:52.590 --> 00:03:54.990 really matters to you, even when you hit those 00:03:54.990 --> 00:03:57.870 inevitable roadblocks and setbacks. And one of 00:03:57.870 --> 00:03:59.810 the most compelling pieces of evidence she uses 00:03:59.810 --> 00:04:02.490 early on comes from her work with cadets at West 00:04:02.490 --> 00:04:04.150 Point. You've got to paint a picture of that 00:04:04.150 --> 00:04:06.270 environment. What's Beast Barracks? Right, West 00:04:06.270 --> 00:04:09.409 Point. It's famous for its incredibly rigorous 00:04:09.409 --> 00:04:12.759 standards, both academic and physical. Beast 00:04:12.759 --> 00:04:14.900 Barracks is basically the initial summer training 00:04:14.900 --> 00:04:17.500 for new cadets. OK. And it's intentionally designed 00:04:17.500 --> 00:04:19.860 to be just brutally demanding, pushing them to 00:04:19.860 --> 00:04:22.019 their absolute limits mentally and physically. 00:04:22.339 --> 00:04:25.019 A significant chunk of cadets actually don't 00:04:25.019 --> 00:04:27.839 make it through this initial trial by fire. Wow. 00:04:28.139 --> 00:04:31.519 Now, West Point has this super selective admissions 00:04:31.519 --> 00:04:33.399 process, right? They're looking for the absolute 00:04:33.399 --> 00:04:36.029 best. What kinds of things do they look at? Oh, 00:04:36.050 --> 00:04:38.069 absolutely. They use this comprehensive metric 00:04:38.069 --> 00:04:40.529 called the hold candidate score. Think of it 00:04:40.529 --> 00:04:43.069 like trying to get a 360 degree view of an applicant. 00:04:43.230 --> 00:04:46.769 Gotcha. They look at SAT or ACT scores, high 00:04:46.769 --> 00:04:49.410 school rank, leadership potential evaluations, 00:04:49.790 --> 00:04:52.709 physical fitness tests. Basically, on paper, 00:04:52.850 --> 00:04:54.569 these are individuals who look like they have 00:04:54.569 --> 00:04:57.009 all the ingredients for success. OK, so here's 00:04:57.009 --> 00:04:59.779 where it gets really interesting. What did Duckworth 00:04:59.779 --> 00:05:02.920 find when she looked at how these whole candidate 00:05:02.920 --> 00:05:06.079 scores actually correlated with who persevered 00:05:06.079 --> 00:05:09.220 through Beast Barracks? This is the kicker. In 00:05:09.220 --> 00:05:11.720 a really surprising finding, she discovered virtually 00:05:11.720 --> 00:05:14.779 no correlation between that whole candidate score 00:05:14.779 --> 00:05:17.540 and who successfully completed Beast Barracks. 00:05:17.639 --> 00:05:20.910 Seriously, none. Pretty much none. Let that sink 00:05:20.910 --> 00:05:23.790 in. All those carefully measured indicators of 00:05:23.790 --> 00:05:26.189 talent and potential. Yeah. They didn't predict 00:05:26.189 --> 00:05:29.509 who had the sheer willpower to stick it out through 00:05:29.509 --> 00:05:32.790 that incredibly tough initial phase. Wow. OK, 00:05:32.850 --> 00:05:34.689 so what did predict it? What about the grit scores? 00:05:34.850 --> 00:05:37.290 How did she measure that? So Duckworth developed 00:05:37.290 --> 00:05:39.509 this grit scale, right? It's a questionnaire 00:05:39.509 --> 00:05:41.889 designed to assess someone's level of passion 00:05:41.889 --> 00:05:45.230 and perseverance for long term goals. OK. And 00:05:45.230 --> 00:05:48.370 what she found was first. These grit scores were 00:05:48.370 --> 00:05:50.629 totally separate from the whole candidate scores, 00:05:50.790 --> 00:05:53.730 like no relationship. Independent factors. Completely 00:05:53.730 --> 00:05:56.810 independent. And second, crucially, the grit 00:05:56.810 --> 00:05:59.170 scores emerged as a significant predictor of 00:05:59.170 --> 00:06:00.790 who would actually make it through B's barracks. 00:06:00.910 --> 00:06:03.850 So the takeaway for you listening is don't let 00:06:03.850 --> 00:06:07.670 a perceived lack of initial talent stop you from 00:06:07.670 --> 00:06:10.009 tackling something tough. Duckworth's research 00:06:10.009 --> 00:06:12.629 really suggests your willingness to just stick 00:06:12.629 --> 00:06:16.000 with it. Your grit might be a way more powerful 00:06:16.000 --> 00:06:18.279 predictor of getting through that initial hurdle. 00:06:18.420 --> 00:06:20.379 Yeah. But the story doesn't end there, right? 00:06:20.680 --> 00:06:22.839 What about the cadets who did make it through 00:06:22.839 --> 00:06:25.500 BEAST? Exactly. That's the next fascinating layer. 00:06:26.100 --> 00:06:28.600 Among those cadets who showed that initial grit 00:06:28.600 --> 00:06:31.180 and actually completed BEAST barracks, then the 00:06:31.180 --> 00:06:33.600 whole candidate score did become a good predictor. 00:06:33.620 --> 00:06:35.920 It predicted their later performance at West 00:06:35.920 --> 00:06:38.519 Point, their grades, their military evaluations, 00:06:38.860 --> 00:06:40.819 their physical fitness rankings. So it's like 00:06:40.819 --> 00:06:43.860 talent matters. But only if you have the grit 00:06:43.860 --> 00:06:46.920 to get past the initial challenges first. That's 00:06:46.920 --> 00:06:49.360 a great way to put it. Initial talent might predict 00:06:49.360 --> 00:06:51.740 later success, but only if you have the grit 00:06:51.740 --> 00:06:55.100 to survive the tough stuff up front. So grit. 00:06:55.689 --> 00:06:58.750 not the initial measured talent, seems key for 00:06:58.750 --> 00:07:02.269 overcoming that first huge obstacle. But Duckworth 00:07:02.269 --> 00:07:04.350 didn't just stop at West Point, did she? She 00:07:04.350 --> 00:07:06.370 wanted to see if this held true elsewhere. Right. 00:07:06.449 --> 00:07:08.329 She took her research into completely different 00:07:08.329 --> 00:07:10.790 demanding fields. She went into the world of 00:07:10.790 --> 00:07:13.230 sales, specifically looking at salespeople at 00:07:13.230 --> 00:07:16.069 a vacation timeshare company. Okay, that sounds 00:07:16.069 --> 00:07:18.879 challenging. Lots of rejection, I imagine. That's 00:07:18.879 --> 00:07:21.439 exactly. It's a profession notorious for high 00:07:21.439 --> 00:07:23.620 rates of rejection. It could be incredibly draining 00:07:23.620 --> 00:07:25.860 and a lot of people quit pretty quickly. So what 00:07:25.860 --> 00:07:28.160 did she find there? Did grit matter for these 00:07:28.160 --> 00:07:30.879 salespeople? She had hundreds of them fill out 00:07:30.879 --> 00:07:32.920 personality questionnaires, including her grit 00:07:32.920 --> 00:07:35.379 scale. Then she followed up six months later 00:07:35.379 --> 00:07:38.279 and a huge number, over half, had already left 00:07:38.279 --> 00:07:41.800 the company. But the key finding. The salespeople 00:07:41.800 --> 00:07:44.160 who scored higher on the grit scale were far 00:07:44.160 --> 00:07:46.540 more likely to still be there after those six 00:07:46.540 --> 00:07:49.040 tough months. Wow. More likely than other factors. 00:07:49.259 --> 00:07:51.660 Yeah. Grit actually turned out to be a better 00:07:51.660 --> 00:07:54.699 predictor of job retention than other personality 00:07:54.699 --> 00:07:56.480 traits you might think are important for sales, 00:07:56.680 --> 00:07:59.319 like extroversion or even emotional stability. 00:07:59.639 --> 00:08:03.060 That's powerful. It shows grit isn't just about 00:08:03.060 --> 00:08:06.060 physical endurance like at West Point. It's about... 00:08:06.250 --> 00:08:09.149 Handling the emotional grind, the constant setbacks. 00:08:09.350 --> 00:08:12.250 Precisely. And she also briefly mentions doing 00:08:12.250 --> 00:08:14.649 work with another incredibly resilient group, 00:08:14.910 --> 00:08:17.589 the Green Berets. Right, the U .S. Army Special 00:08:17.589 --> 00:08:20.990 Operations Forces. Exactly. Their selection process 00:08:20.990 --> 00:08:24.290 is famously grueling, even after extensive military 00:08:24.290 --> 00:08:27.149 training. While she doesn't detail the data in 00:08:27.149 --> 00:08:29.589 the parts we're looking at, the implication is 00:08:29.589 --> 00:08:32.269 clear. That grit is probably essential there, 00:08:32.309 --> 00:08:34.549 too. You have to assume it plays a huge role 00:08:34.549 --> 00:08:37.470 in getting through. that kind of extreme mental 00:08:37.470 --> 00:08:40.429 and physical test. OK, so these big studies give 00:08:40.429 --> 00:08:43.190 us the broad picture, but sometimes, you know, 00:08:43.190 --> 00:08:46.509 a single story really brings it home. Duckworth 00:08:46.509 --> 00:08:48.990 talks about one of her seventh grade math students, 00:08:49.210 --> 00:08:52.419 David. What was his deal initially? Right, David. 00:08:52.519 --> 00:08:54.360 Initially, he was one of those kids who just 00:08:54.360 --> 00:08:56.100 seemed to struggle with math concepts compared 00:08:56.100 --> 00:08:58.259 to his classmates. We all knew kids like that. 00:08:58.340 --> 00:09:00.779 Or maybe we were kids like that. Exactly. And 00:09:00.779 --> 00:09:03.580 he was actually labeled as not ready for the 00:09:03.580 --> 00:09:05.840 advanced math classes. It looked like he just 00:09:05.840 --> 00:09:08.620 didn't have that initial, you know, spark of 00:09:08.620 --> 00:09:11.179 aptitude that some others seemed to have so effortlessly. 00:09:11.440 --> 00:09:14.159 But David's story takes a really inspiring turn, 00:09:14.340 --> 00:09:16.879 doesn't it? What happened later on? It's an amazing 00:09:16.879 --> 00:09:19.399 transformation, really. Even when he did get 00:09:19.399 --> 00:09:21.419 into a more advanced class, he still struggled. 00:09:21.580 --> 00:09:24.639 He got a B in geometry, even failed his first 00:09:24.639 --> 00:09:28.600 test in the next class. Got a D. Oof. That could 00:09:28.600 --> 00:09:31.090 easily make someone give up on math. It could 00:09:31.090 --> 00:09:33.710 have. But instead of throwing in the towel, David 00:09:33.710 --> 00:09:36.769 showed incredible grit. He actively sought help. 00:09:36.830 --> 00:09:39.250 He analyzed his mistakes. He just persistently 00:09:39.250 --> 00:09:41.889 worked at understanding the material. And the 00:09:41.889 --> 00:09:44.629 result. By his senior year, he wasn't just taking 00:09:44.629 --> 00:09:47.049 the hardest honors calculus course. He aced the 00:09:47.049 --> 00:09:50.789 AP calculus exam. Perfect score. No way. Yep. 00:09:50.870 --> 00:09:53.090 And it didn't stop there. He went on to get dual 00:09:53.090 --> 00:09:55.250 degrees in engineering and economics, then a 00:09:55.250 --> 00:09:58.590 Ph .D. in mechanical engineering. And today he's 00:09:58.590 --> 00:10:01.649 literally working as a rocket scientist. That's 00:10:01.649 --> 00:10:03.570 incredible. David's story is such a powerful 00:10:03.570 --> 00:10:06.409 reminder. Perceived lack of initial talent doesn't 00:10:06.409 --> 00:10:08.289 have to be the end of the story. Not at all. 00:10:08.370 --> 00:10:10.710 His perseverance, his willingness to learn and 00:10:10.710 --> 00:10:12.850 put in the effort, that was the real engine of 00:10:12.850 --> 00:10:15.009 his success. And this whole question, you know, 00:10:15.009 --> 00:10:18.070 what drives achievement? It's not exactly new, 00:10:18.149 --> 00:10:20.350 is it? Yeah. Duckworth looks back at some history, 00:10:20.470 --> 00:10:23.429 too. She does. She goes back to Francis Galton 00:10:23.429 --> 00:10:27.090 in the 19th century. He was a pioneer in scientifically 00:10:27.090 --> 00:10:30.070 studying high achievement. What did he conclude 00:10:30.070 --> 00:10:32.870 were the key traits? Galton identified this combination. 00:10:33.110 --> 00:10:36.610 He saw unusual ability, which we'd probably call 00:10:36.610 --> 00:10:39.769 talent, but also exceptional zeal, and something 00:10:39.769 --> 00:10:42.940 he called the capacity for hard labor. Zeal and 00:10:42.940 --> 00:10:45.620 hard labor. So even back then, effort was clearly 00:10:45.620 --> 00:10:48.080 part of the equation. Right. And it's fascinating 00:10:48.080 --> 00:10:50.559 what Charles Darwin, who was actually Galden's 00:10:50.559 --> 00:10:53.399 half cousin, thought about this. What was Darwin's 00:10:53.399 --> 00:10:56.159 take? Darwin's view was pretty surprising. He 00:10:56.159 --> 00:10:58.299 wrote to Galton saying he was surprised intellect 00:10:58.299 --> 00:11:01.080 was even on the shortlist. Really? Darwin? Yeah. 00:11:01.159 --> 00:11:04.159 He famously said that accepting fools, men did 00:11:04.159 --> 00:11:06.580 not differ much in intellect, only in zeal and 00:11:06.580 --> 00:11:08.799 hard work. He thought that difference in zeal 00:11:08.799 --> 00:11:11.840 and hard work was eminently important. Wow. That's 00:11:11.840 --> 00:11:14.279 a huge endorsement from Darwin himself. Basically 00:11:14.279 --> 00:11:17.080 saying sustained effort might be even more important 00:11:17.080 --> 00:11:19.419 than raw intelligence. It really challenges that 00:11:19.419 --> 00:11:21.580 deep -seated bias we have towards innate talent. 00:11:22.080 --> 00:11:24.200 And speaking of biases, Duckworth explores this 00:11:24.200 --> 00:11:26.679 natural versus striber thing. What's that about? 00:11:26.960 --> 00:11:29.559 This is fascinating research by Chiao Yun -se. 00:11:30.080 --> 00:11:32.240 She looked at professional musicians and business 00:11:32.240 --> 00:11:35.559 execs and found this weird contradiction. Okay. 00:11:35.779 --> 00:11:37.659 When you asked them directly, they all said, 00:11:37.799 --> 00:11:40.259 oh yeah, dedication, effort, training, that's 00:11:40.259 --> 00:11:42.460 way more important than natural talent. Makes 00:11:42.460 --> 00:11:45.039 sense. They'd know, right? You'd think. But when 00:11:45.039 --> 00:11:47.679 Say used more subtle ways to gauge their unconscious 00:11:47.679 --> 00:11:50.860 attitudes, she found this strong hidden bias 00:11:50.860 --> 00:11:55.100 favoring people presented as naturals, those 00:11:55.100 --> 00:11:58.360 perceived to have innate talent. How did she 00:11:58.360 --> 00:12:00.340 show that? Like, how did the experiments work? 00:12:00.600 --> 00:12:03.159 Well, with the musicians, they listened to recordings 00:12:03.159 --> 00:12:06.000 of the exact same pianist playing. But some were 00:12:06.000 --> 00:12:07.799 told the pianist was a natural, you know, showed 00:12:07.799 --> 00:12:10.539 amazing talent really early. Others were told 00:12:10.539 --> 00:12:13.429 the same performance came from a striver. Someone 00:12:13.429 --> 00:12:15.629 who got there through sheer hard work and perseverance. 00:12:16.049 --> 00:12:18.889 And the result, even though the music was identical. 00:12:19.110 --> 00:12:22.129 Yep, identical performance. But musicians consistently 00:12:22.129 --> 00:12:24.850 rated the natural as having more potential and 00:12:24.850 --> 00:12:27.470 being more hireable. Same thing with business 00:12:27.470 --> 00:12:31.009 pros evaluating entrepreneurs. The strivers needed 00:12:31.009 --> 00:12:33.289 way more experience, way more initial funding, 00:12:33.389 --> 00:12:36.470 just to be seen as equal to the naturals, even 00:12:36.470 --> 00:12:39.740 with identical proposals. That really shows how 00:12:39.740 --> 00:12:42.480 deep that bias runs, doesn't it? Even when we 00:12:42.480 --> 00:12:45.139 consciously know effort is crucial. It's deep. 00:12:45.320 --> 00:12:48.059 And Duckworth even saw this emphasis on talent 00:12:48.059 --> 00:12:50.519 firsthand when she worked at McKinsey, the big 00:12:50.519 --> 00:12:52.639 consulting firm. Right. She mentions that. What 00:12:52.639 --> 00:12:54.919 was her observation there? She reflected on their 00:12:54.919 --> 00:12:58.179 intense interview process and how much they seem 00:12:58.179 --> 00:13:01.659 to rely on things like SAT scores for that first 00:13:01.659 --> 00:13:04.419 cut. Like they were prioritizing raw brain power. 00:13:04.539 --> 00:13:08.039 And she had this really... telling internal thought 00:13:08.039 --> 00:13:11.379 during a tough case interview, one with a complex 00:13:11.379 --> 00:13:13.980 math problem. What did she realize? Her thought 00:13:13.980 --> 00:13:16.899 was basically, OK, the math here isn't that hard 00:13:16.899 --> 00:13:19.779 for me. But if you actually wanted the real answer, 00:13:19.940 --> 00:13:22.019 you know what I'd really do? I'd just call someone 00:13:22.019 --> 00:13:23.759 who actually knows the answer. That's brilliant. 00:13:23.980 --> 00:13:26.460 It highlights that practical knowledge, resourcefulness, 00:13:26.659 --> 00:13:29.179 knowing who to ask. That might be more valuable 00:13:29.179 --> 00:13:32.080 than just raw analytical ability sometimes. Absolutely. 00:13:32.200 --> 00:13:34.759 It's about applying knowledge, not just having 00:13:34.759 --> 00:13:37.879 it. And from all this, her research, these observations, 00:13:38.259 --> 00:13:41.399 Duckworth starts building her main argument about 00:13:41.399 --> 00:13:44.820 effort. What's the core message? The core message 00:13:44.820 --> 00:13:47.820 is that our society's obsession with talent, 00:13:47.960 --> 00:13:50.820 it kind of winds us. It distracts us from how 00:13:50.820 --> 00:13:53.759 incredibly important effort is. Right. She starts 00:13:53.759 --> 00:13:56.080 arguing that effort isn't just as important as 00:13:56.080 --> 00:13:58.600 talent. In many ways, it's maybe even more important. 00:13:58.720 --> 00:14:02.049 And that. leads to her big claim which is that 00:14:02.049 --> 00:14:04.990 effort counts twice effort counts twice okay 00:14:04.990 --> 00:14:07.129 that's a big statement what does she mean by 00:14:07.129 --> 00:14:09.049 that and how does she back it up well she kicks 00:14:09.049 --> 00:14:11.210 it off with a relatable example think about how 00:14:11.210 --> 00:14:13.269 people talked about bill and hillary clinton 00:14:13.269 --> 00:14:15.929 okay a radio commentator noted yeah both are 00:14:15.929 --> 00:14:18.029 skilled communicators but bill was always seen 00:14:18.029 --> 00:14:21.409 as the natural politician right effortless yeah 00:14:21.409 --> 00:14:23.509 i remember that perception while hillary was 00:14:23.509 --> 00:14:26.789 often portrayed as someone who had to like contort 00:14:26.789 --> 00:14:29.350 herself into the role, she was just a striver. 00:14:29.470 --> 00:14:31.809 The implication being she'd never quite measure 00:14:31.809 --> 00:14:34.509 up to the natural. It reinforces that bias. Ah, 00:14:34.690 --> 00:14:38.190 okay. So it illustrates how we value that perceived 00:14:38.190 --> 00:14:41.909 effortlessness. Exactly. And to really dig into 00:14:41.909 --> 00:14:45.070 what fuels top performance, Duckworth talks to 00:14:45.070 --> 00:14:47.809 Dan Chambliss, the famous Olympic swimming coach. 00:14:48.009 --> 00:14:51.250 What were his big insights? Chambliss acknowledged, 00:14:51.549 --> 00:14:53.470 yeah, maybe some people have slight physical 00:14:53.470 --> 00:14:56.820 advantages to start, but... He strongly believed 00:14:56.820 --> 00:15:00.179 that greatness is doable for many. He described 00:15:00.179 --> 00:15:03.480 it as an accretion of mundane acts. Basically, 00:15:03.500 --> 00:15:06.059 the consistent, often unglamorous dedication 00:15:06.059 --> 00:15:08.860 to mastering the tiny details over and over again. 00:15:08.980 --> 00:15:11.659 So not magic in the pool. Not magic. It's the 00:15:11.659 --> 00:15:14.340 cumulative effect of focused, repetitive effort 00:15:14.340 --> 00:15:17.220 day after day. He even tells that story comparing 00:15:17.220 --> 00:15:19.960 Mark Spitz and Rowdy Games, two swimming legends. 00:15:20.320 --> 00:15:22.759 Games was a gold medal favorite. But what happened 00:15:22.759 --> 00:15:25.419 when the team saw Spitz swim? Yeah. Even though 00:15:25.419 --> 00:15:27.399 they trained with the incredibly talented gains, 00:15:27.559 --> 00:15:29.799 they were just blown away by Spitz's seemingly 00:15:29.799 --> 00:15:32.600 effortless grace in the water. One teammate apparently 00:15:32.600 --> 00:15:36.200 just said, my God, he's a fish. Wow. That perception 00:15:36.200 --> 00:15:38.840 of natural, almost supernatural talent. Right. 00:15:38.919 --> 00:15:41.639 Even Chambliss, who's all about the mundanity 00:15:41.639 --> 00:15:44.399 of excellence, admitted he was momentarily swayed 00:15:44.399 --> 00:15:46.899 by that talent explanation. But he also connects 00:15:46.899 --> 00:15:50.240 this to the philosopher Nietzsche, right? What 00:15:50.240 --> 00:15:52.240 was Nietzsche's take on achieving greatness? 00:15:52.809 --> 00:15:55.309 Nietzsche basically reached a similar conclusion. 00:15:55.730 --> 00:15:58.809 He argued great accomplishments come from relentless 00:15:58.809 --> 00:16:01.429 intellectual work, active thinking, constant 00:16:01.429 --> 00:16:05.159 observation, learning tirelessly trying different 00:16:05.159 --> 00:16:08.320 approaches. So like a craftsman. Exactly. Nietzsche 00:16:08.320 --> 00:16:11.139 urged us to see great individuals as craftsmen 00:16:11.139 --> 00:16:14.019 who meticulously learn all the parts before they 00:16:14.019 --> 00:16:16.539 build the whole thing. He valued the process, 00:16:16.879 --> 00:16:20.200 the often unseen work, more than just the dazzling 00:16:20.200 --> 00:16:22.539 final result. And Duckworth herself had this 00:16:22.539 --> 00:16:25.039 key moment developing her theory, getting feedback 00:16:25.039 --> 00:16:28.200 from psychologist Marty Seligman. What did he 00:16:28.200 --> 00:16:30.779 tell her? Well, despite all the data and insights 00:16:30.779 --> 00:16:32.639 she had gathered, Seligman was pretty blunt. 00:16:32.759 --> 00:16:34.700 He basically said, you don't have a theory. You 00:16:34.700 --> 00:16:36.539 don't have a theory for the psychology of achievement. 00:16:36.899 --> 00:16:40.059 Ouch. Tough feedback. Tough, but crucial. It 00:16:40.059 --> 00:16:42.840 pushed her beyond just describing things to actually 00:16:42.840 --> 00:16:45.440 explaining the underlying mechanisms. And what 00:16:45.440 --> 00:16:48.519 was his advice on how to actually get a theory? 00:16:48.759 --> 00:16:52.500 His advice was surprisingly simple, maybe a bit 00:16:52.500 --> 00:16:55.200 intimidating. Stop reading so much and go think. 00:16:55.440 --> 00:16:58.600 Just think? Yep. forced her into this period 00:16:58.600 --> 00:17:00.960 of intense reflection. And that's what ultimately 00:17:00.960 --> 00:17:03.659 led her to her core equations, the ones linking 00:17:03.659 --> 00:17:07.240 talent, effort, skill, and achievement. Can you 00:17:07.240 --> 00:17:09.400 lay those out? Okay, so the two equations are 00:17:09.400 --> 00:17:13.299 talent times effort equals skill. Right. And 00:17:13.299 --> 00:17:16.200 then skill times effort equals achievement. Notice 00:17:16.200 --> 00:17:18.359 effort is in both equations. Ah, okay. That's 00:17:18.359 --> 00:17:20.480 the effort counts twice part. Exactly. Talent 00:17:20.480 --> 00:17:22.339 gives you a starting point, maybe makes learning 00:17:22.339 --> 00:17:25.500 faster. But without consistent effort, that talent 00:17:25.500 --> 00:17:28.109 doesn't become real skill. And even once you 00:17:28.109 --> 00:17:30.829 have the skill, you still need sustained effort 00:17:30.829 --> 00:17:33.589 to actually turn that skill into tangible achievements. 00:17:33.829 --> 00:17:36.349 Effort is the engine twice over. And she backs 00:17:36.349 --> 00:17:38.529 this up with real world examples, right? People 00:17:38.529 --> 00:17:41.230 who got amazing results through sheer effort, 00:17:41.349 --> 00:17:43.509 not necessarily because they started out as prodigies. 00:17:43.710 --> 00:17:46.009 Absolutely. She points to Washington Irving, 00:17:46.150 --> 00:17:48.690 the writer. He basically transformed himself 00:17:48.690 --> 00:17:51.410 into a master through dedicated daily writing 00:17:51.410 --> 00:17:53.890 practice. And she quotes Will Smith, who's pretty 00:17:53.890 --> 00:17:55.549 open about not seeing himself as exceptionally 00:17:55.549 --> 00:17:59.440 talented. He credits his huge success to a, quote, 00:17:59.500 --> 00:18:03.740 ridiculous, sickening work ethic. For him, accomplishment 00:18:03.740 --> 00:18:07.380 is just about going the distance. And she uses 00:18:07.380 --> 00:18:09.779 that treadmill analogy too, right? Yeah. Comparing 00:18:09.779 --> 00:18:12.339 staying on it versus eagerly getting back on 00:18:12.339 --> 00:18:14.279 tomorrow. What's the difference? Right. Staying 00:18:14.279 --> 00:18:16.420 on the treadmill, that's commitment. Sticking 00:18:16.420 --> 00:18:18.400 with your goals even when it's boring or hard. 00:18:18.519 --> 00:18:21.339 Got it. But eagerly stepping back on that treadmill 00:18:21.339 --> 00:18:24.099 the next day, ready for more work. That, for 00:18:24.099 --> 00:18:27.599 Duckworth, embodies true grit. It's that resilience, 00:18:27.700 --> 00:18:29.880 that consistent return to effort, even after 00:18:29.880 --> 00:18:32.160 setbacks, that really makes the difference. Because 00:18:32.160 --> 00:18:34.759 if you give up entirely, effort drops to zero. 00:18:34.940 --> 00:18:37.200 And then achievement drops to zero, too. Exactly. 00:18:37.420 --> 00:18:40.359 Game over. Okay, so we've established grit. This 00:18:40.359 --> 00:18:42.700 mix of passion and perseverance is incredibly 00:18:42.700 --> 00:18:45.500 important. But Duckworth actually breaks grit 00:18:45.500 --> 00:18:48.559 down into those two parts. What does she mean 00:18:48.559 --> 00:18:50.839 by passion here? How is it different from perseverance? 00:18:50.839 --> 00:18:53.869 So she defines grit as... working on something 00:18:53.869 --> 00:18:55.829 you care about so much that you're willing to 00:18:55.829 --> 00:18:57.990 stay loyal to it, like staying in love with it. 00:18:58.089 --> 00:19:00.730 Okay. And her grit scale measures both passion 00:19:00.730 --> 00:19:04.789 and perseverance separately. Interestingly, people 00:19:04.789 --> 00:19:07.450 often score higher on perseverance than passion. 00:19:07.650 --> 00:19:10.950 They're related but distinct. So what is passion 00:19:10.950 --> 00:19:13.769 in the grit sense? The key thing is it's not 00:19:13.769 --> 00:19:17.150 about fleeting, intense emotion. It's not like 00:19:17.150 --> 00:19:18.910 falling head over heels for something new every 00:19:18.910 --> 00:19:21.950 week. In the context of grit, passion means a 00:19:21.950 --> 00:19:24.730 consistent, enduring interest over a long time, 00:19:24.849 --> 00:19:27.609 a sustained commitment to a particular field 00:19:27.609 --> 00:19:30.309 or a big overarching goal. And she uses Jeffrey 00:19:30.309 --> 00:19:32.230 Gettleman, the New York Times journalist, as 00:19:32.230 --> 00:19:34.990 an example of this long -term passion. Gettleman, 00:19:35.130 --> 00:19:37.529 the Pulitzer Prize -winning East Africa bureau 00:19:37.529 --> 00:19:40.890 chief, his journey was like a decade -long step 00:19:40.890 --> 00:19:43.369 -by -step process. He started writing for his 00:19:43.369 --> 00:19:46.269 student newspaper, then did internships at small 00:19:46.269 --> 00:19:48.710 papers, gradually worked his way up through bigger 00:19:48.710 --> 00:19:52.990 outlets, until finally, years later, he landed 00:19:52.990 --> 00:19:55.730 his dream job covering East Africa for The Times. 00:19:55.970 --> 00:19:59.210 Wow. So it wasn't overnight. Not at all. He faced 00:19:59.210 --> 00:20:02.049 tons of obstacles, rejections, even dangerous 00:20:02.049 --> 00:20:05.509 situations. But his consistent effort... driven 00:20:05.509 --> 00:20:08.069 by that deep, enduring passion for international 00:20:08.069 --> 00:20:11.049 journalism, kept him moving towards his ultimate 00:20:11.049 --> 00:20:14.069 concern. Ultimate concern. That's a key concept. 00:20:14.390 --> 00:20:17.009 Duckworth talks about a goal hierarchy to explain 00:20:17.009 --> 00:20:19.890 how passion and perseverance connect. Can you 00:20:19.890 --> 00:20:21.940 break that down? Yeah, the goal hierarchy. Imagine 00:20:21.940 --> 00:20:25.599 a pyramid. At the very top is your single overarching 00:20:25.599 --> 00:20:27.900 top -level goal. That's your ultimate concern. 00:20:27.940 --> 00:20:30.200 It's like your personal North Star, giving meaning 00:20:30.200 --> 00:20:32.480 and direction to everything underneath it. So 00:20:32.480 --> 00:20:34.980 for Gettleman, maybe it was be an impactful international 00:20:34.980 --> 00:20:37.480 journalist. All his internships, his early jobs, 00:20:37.619 --> 00:20:39.960 those were the mid -level and low -level goals 00:20:39.960 --> 00:20:42.220 supporting that big one. She also uses Tom Seaver, 00:20:42.259 --> 00:20:44.299 the baseball pitcher. Right, the Hall of Fame 00:20:44.299 --> 00:20:47.730 pitcher Tom Seaver. His top level goal was incredibly 00:20:47.730 --> 00:20:51.009 simple. Pitch the best I possibly can day after 00:20:51.009 --> 00:20:53.990 day, year after year. And that single focus shaped 00:20:53.990 --> 00:20:55.910 everything else, his training, his preparation, 00:20:56.289 --> 00:20:59.029 all the smaller goals. And she says a lack of 00:20:59.029 --> 00:21:02.250 grit often isn't about lacking a big dream, but 00:21:02.250 --> 00:21:05.769 lacking the supporting goals, the plan. Exactly. 00:21:05.789 --> 00:21:08.190 People might have a top level goal, but no clear 00:21:08.190 --> 00:21:11.130 mid -level or low -level goals, no concrete steps 00:21:11.130 --> 00:21:13.990 to actually get there. But she also makes a crucial 00:21:13.990 --> 00:21:17.299 point. Grit isn't about being stubborn about 00:21:17.299 --> 00:21:19.599 every little goal. Right. It's not just blindly 00:21:19.599 --> 00:21:22.140 pushing forward on everything. Precisely. Grit 00:21:22.140 --> 00:21:25.259 involves wisdom, knowing when to prune, when 00:21:25.259 --> 00:21:27.799 to let go of a lower level goal or maybe change 00:21:27.799 --> 00:21:29.900 your tactics if they aren't serving that higher 00:21:29.900 --> 00:21:33.259 level ultimate concern. It's about unwavering 00:21:33.259 --> 00:21:35.859 commitment to the big aim, but being flexible 00:21:35.859 --> 00:21:38.079 on how you get there. OK, so we get what grit 00:21:38.079 --> 00:21:40.660 is, why it's so powerful. Now, the big question 00:21:40.660 --> 00:21:42.759 for everyone listening, how do we actually get 00:21:42.759 --> 00:21:45.099 more grit? Duckworth says we can grow it from 00:21:45.099 --> 00:21:46.839 the inside out. What are the key psychological 00:21:46.839 --> 00:21:49.859 assets she identifies? Right. Growing grit from 00:21:49.859 --> 00:21:52.920 within. She identifies four key psychological 00:21:52.920 --> 00:21:55.839 assets. Think of them as antidotes to quitting. 00:21:55.900 --> 00:21:59.579 They are. Interest, practice, purpose, and hope. 00:21:59.900 --> 00:22:02.619 Interest, practice, purpose, hope. And she suggests 00:22:02.619 --> 00:22:04.900 they tend to develop kind of sequentially, building 00:22:04.900 --> 00:22:06.960 on each other. Okay, let's start with interest. 00:22:07.180 --> 00:22:09.480 We always hear that advice, follow your passion. 00:22:09.799 --> 00:22:13.029 What's Duckworth's take on... interest, and grit. 00:22:13.230 --> 00:22:16.250 She agrees. Genuine passion starts with really 00:22:16.250 --> 00:22:19.029 enjoying what you do. Every gritty person she 00:22:19.029 --> 00:22:21.349 studied could point to parts of their work they're 00:22:21.349 --> 00:22:23.750 truly loved. Like who? She gives examples like 00:22:23.750 --> 00:22:26.390 Will Shortz, the famous crossword puzzle editor 00:22:26.390 --> 00:22:28.589 for the New York Times, or Jeff Bezos, founder 00:22:28.589 --> 00:22:32.009 of Amazon. Both built huge careers on deep -seated 00:22:32.009 --> 00:22:34.170 interests. Okay. But she cautions that finding 00:22:34.170 --> 00:22:37.150 your passion isn't always some big dramatic light 00:22:37.150 --> 00:22:39.349 bulb moment. Right, it can be subtle. Often it's 00:22:39.349 --> 00:22:41.579 more subtle, gradual, and early in Interests 00:22:41.579 --> 00:22:44.000 are usually pretty fragile. They need years of 00:22:44.000 --> 00:22:47.180 nurturing and exploration to really bloom. Think 00:22:47.180 --> 00:22:49.119 of it like finding a partner the first meeting 00:22:49.119 --> 00:22:51.720 is just the start. The relationship needs time 00:22:51.720 --> 00:22:54.299 and effort to grow. And she stresses how important 00:22:54.299 --> 00:22:56.880 encouragement and some freedom are in those early 00:22:56.880 --> 00:23:00.259 stages, right? To let interest take root. Absolutely 00:23:00.259 --> 00:23:02.559 critical. Research shows that supportive mentors, 00:23:02.859 --> 00:23:05.400 parents, teachers, early bosses who make learning 00:23:05.400 --> 00:23:07.940 fun and give you some autonomy to explore, they 00:23:07.940 --> 00:23:10.019 play a huge role. Versus being too controlling. 00:23:10.359 --> 00:23:12.559 Right. Environments that are too controlling 00:23:12.559 --> 00:23:15.099 or directive can actually crush that intrinsic 00:23:15.099 --> 00:23:18.940 motivation. Kids and young adults need some agency 00:23:18.940 --> 00:23:21.960 to explore what genuinely grabs them if those 00:23:21.960 --> 00:23:23.940 interests are going to become lasting passions. 00:23:24.279 --> 00:23:27.859 OK. Second asset, practice. And not just any 00:23:27.859 --> 00:23:30.099 practice, but deliberate practice like Anders 00:23:30.099 --> 00:23:32.079 Ericsson talked about. What makes deliberate 00:23:32.079 --> 00:23:35.769 practice different? The huge difference is intentionality 00:23:35.769 --> 00:23:38.490 and focused effort. Experts don't just practice 00:23:38.490 --> 00:23:40.890 more hours, they practice differently. How so? 00:23:41.170 --> 00:23:43.430 Deliberate practice means setting clear stretch 00:23:43.430 --> 00:23:46.170 goals, specific targets just beyond your current 00:23:46.170 --> 00:23:49.220 reach. It demands intense concentration, zero 00:23:49.220 --> 00:23:52.579 distractions. You actively seek immediate feedback, 00:23:52.759 --> 00:23:55.259 especially on your mistakes. Focusing on mistakes. 00:23:55.539 --> 00:23:58.460 Yes. And then you repeat and refine based on 00:23:58.460 --> 00:24:00.859 that feedback. Duckworth uses her own jogging 00:24:00.859 --> 00:24:03.619 as an example. Just running the same route, same 00:24:03.619 --> 00:24:06.720 pace for years. That won't make you faster or 00:24:06.720 --> 00:24:09.200 improve endurance much. You need focused effort 00:24:09.200 --> 00:24:11.640 on improvement. And that focus on weaknesses 00:24:11.640 --> 00:24:13.700 is key, right? Not just doing what you're already 00:24:13.700 --> 00:24:16.500 good at. Exactly. Deliberate practice is about 00:24:16.500 --> 00:24:18.839 actively hunting down your errors because that's 00:24:18.839 --> 00:24:21.220 where the improvement happens. Analyzing the 00:24:21.220 --> 00:24:24.559 feedback is crucial. She mentions that virtual 00:24:24.559 --> 00:24:27.160 reality train game for doctors. Oh, yeah. It's 00:24:27.160 --> 00:24:30.160 designed specifically to force doctors to confront 00:24:30.160 --> 00:24:32.240 and learn from their doubts and mistakes in a 00:24:32.240 --> 00:24:35.559 safe space. Now, deliberate practice sounds, 00:24:35.720 --> 00:24:39.829 well, hard, effortful. But gritty people also 00:24:39.829 --> 00:24:42.809 report experiencing more flow, right? That feeling 00:24:42.809 --> 00:24:44.829 of being totally absorbed. Yeah. How do those 00:24:44.829 --> 00:24:46.930 fit together? That's a great question. Duckworth 00:24:46.930 --> 00:24:49.250 clarifies, deliberate practice is a behavior. 00:24:49.509 --> 00:24:52.309 Flow is an experience. They don't always happen 00:24:52.309 --> 00:24:54.769 at the same time. In fact, they often don't. 00:24:55.049 --> 00:24:57.369 Deliberate practice is about pushing your limits, 00:24:57.569 --> 00:25:00.589 focusing on errors that can feel difficult, require 00:25:00.589 --> 00:25:04.049 intense concentration. Flow usually happens when 00:25:04.049 --> 00:25:06.430 you're using well -honed skills in a situation 00:25:06.430 --> 00:25:08.769 that's challenging but manageable. So the hard 00:25:08.769 --> 00:25:11.950 practice leads to more flow later. Exactly. Years 00:25:11.950 --> 00:25:14.049 of deliberate practice build the skills that 00:25:14.049 --> 00:25:15.829 allow you to enter flow more easily when you're 00:25:15.829 --> 00:25:18.230 performing. But she also points out deliberate 00:25:18.230 --> 00:25:20.710 practice itself can be really gratifying in its 00:25:20.710 --> 00:25:23.890 own way. Just seeing yourself get better is rewarding. 00:25:24.359 --> 00:25:26.119 And routines help make this happen consistently, 00:25:26.380 --> 00:25:28.839 like with Charles Schultz or Maya Angelou. Yes, 00:25:29.079 --> 00:25:32.099 routines are huge. They help automate the showing 00:25:32.099 --> 00:25:35.079 up part. These super successful people had very 00:25:35.079 --> 00:25:37.200 structured days that helped them dedicate time 00:25:37.200 --> 00:25:39.839 and energy to that focused work day after day. 00:25:40.059 --> 00:25:43.339 Okay, third asset, purpose. How does connecting 00:25:43.339 --> 00:25:46.220 our work to something bigger than ourselves help 00:25:46.220 --> 00:25:49.710 build grit? Right purpose. Duckworth found that 00:25:49.710 --> 00:25:52.109 beyond just enjoying the work interest, real 00:25:52.109 --> 00:25:54.710 grit often involves the strong desire to connect 00:25:54.710 --> 00:25:56.589 with and contribute to something larger than 00:25:56.589 --> 00:25:59.170 yourself. Sort of mission. Kind of, yeah. Many 00:25:59.170 --> 00:26:01.650 super gritty people have top level goals deeply 00:26:01.650 --> 00:26:05.210 rooted in a sense of purpose. She mentions Antonio 00:26:05.210 --> 00:26:08.069 Galoni, the wine critic. His passion for wine 00:26:08.069 --> 00:26:10.269 is tied to his mission of sharing that appreciation, 00:26:10.750 --> 00:26:13.670 helping others understand their own tastes. Does 00:26:13.670 --> 00:26:17.359 the purpose have to be, like, altruistic? Helping 00:26:17.359 --> 00:26:19.579 others? Not strictly required. You could have 00:26:19.579 --> 00:26:23.460 a gritty villain, maybe. But generally, Duckworth 00:26:23.460 --> 00:26:26.220 suggests our most profound, most sustaining grit 00:26:26.220 --> 00:26:29.059 experiences often do involve benefiting others 00:26:29.059 --> 00:26:31.619 in some way. Amy Rusesniewski's research fits 00:26:31.619 --> 00:26:35.079 here, too. The jobs, careers, and callings work. 00:26:35.500 --> 00:26:37.900 Exactly. People who see their work as a calling, 00:26:37.960 --> 00:26:39.720 something that makes the world better, they tend 00:26:39.720 --> 00:26:42.079 to be grittier, more satisfied, miss less work. 00:26:42.319 --> 00:26:44.769 And Rusesniewski believed... Almost any job could 00:26:44.769 --> 00:26:46.789 become a calling, right? Depending on how you 00:26:46.789 --> 00:26:48.589 frame it. Absolutely. It's not about the job 00:26:48.589 --> 00:26:51.150 title. It's about your perspective, how you connect 00:26:51.150 --> 00:26:53.509 it to others, to deeper values. Remember the 00:26:53.509 --> 00:26:56.029 parable of the bricklayers. Laying bricks versus 00:26:56.029 --> 00:26:59.529 building a cathedral. Right. Same job. Totally 00:26:59.529 --> 00:27:02.609 different sense of purpose. She also tells the 00:27:02.609 --> 00:27:05.609 story of Joe Leder, the NYC subway engineer. 00:27:06.650 --> 00:27:09.150 His motivation started as just paying off loans. 00:27:09.349 --> 00:27:12.529 But over time, he came to see his work as absolutely 00:27:12.529 --> 00:27:15.670 vital to the whole city. That shift gave him 00:27:15.670 --> 00:27:17.950 a powerful sense of purpose. And finding that 00:27:17.950 --> 00:27:20.250 purpose can be a journey itself, like with Michael 00:27:20.250 --> 00:27:22.750 Bain. Yes, it took him years. He was interested 00:27:22.750 --> 00:27:25.349 in mindfulness, but it took time to integrate 00:27:25.349 --> 00:27:27.750 that interest with a clear purpose of using it 00:27:27.750 --> 00:27:30.789 to help others' well -being. When those clicked, 00:27:30.890 --> 00:27:33.680 he found his calling. Duckworth also saw this 00:27:33.680 --> 00:27:35.519 with the Summer Bridge program, the shared purpose 00:27:35.519 --> 00:27:37.359 of helping the kids fuel their perseverance. 00:27:37.619 --> 00:27:41.500 OK, the final asset, hope. How does this rising 00:27:41.500 --> 00:27:44.079 to the occasion kind of perseverance fit in? 00:27:44.200 --> 00:27:46.460 Hope is absolutely crucial, really, at every 00:27:46.460 --> 00:27:48.500 stage. It's the belief that you can improve, 00:27:48.599 --> 00:27:50.779 you can ultimately succeed, even when things 00:27:50.779 --> 00:27:52.880 get really tough. Like that Japanese proverb. 00:27:53.099 --> 00:27:55.579 Fall seven, rise eight. Exactly. It perfectly 00:27:55.579 --> 00:27:58.259 captures that hopeful resilience. Duckworth shares 00:27:58.259 --> 00:28:01.240 her own story of struggling in a hard neurobiology 00:28:01.240 --> 00:28:04.279 class. And getting a B. Yeah, and feeling immense 00:28:04.279 --> 00:28:07.500 pride in that hard one B. It was proof she could 00:28:07.500 --> 00:28:10.160 persevere through difficulty. She also brings 00:28:10.160 --> 00:28:12.319 in the classic learned helplessness experiments 00:28:12.319 --> 00:28:15.460 with dogs. Right, where control mattered. Huge 00:28:15.460 --> 00:28:18.059 discovery. Dogs who had some control over shocks 00:28:18.059 --> 00:28:21.559 didn't give up. Those who had no control learned 00:28:21.559 --> 00:28:24.380 to be helpless. That led to Seligman's work on 00:28:24.380 --> 00:28:26.839 learned optimism. Optimists versus pessimists 00:28:26.839 --> 00:28:29.740 and how they explain bad events. Right. Optimists 00:28:29.740 --> 00:28:32.240 tend to see bad stuff as temporary and specific. 00:28:32.940 --> 00:28:35.299 Pessimists see it as permanent and pervasive, 00:28:35.420 --> 00:28:37.680 affecting everything. And this optimism connects 00:28:37.680 --> 00:28:40.240 directly to grit. like in the Teach for America 00:28:40.240 --> 00:28:42.759 study. It does. That study found teachers who 00:28:42.759 --> 00:28:45.319 started out more optimistic were also grittier 00:28:45.319 --> 00:28:47.839 and more effective in the classroom. Their students 00:28:47.839 --> 00:28:50.720 made more progress. Duckworth even talks about 00:28:50.720 --> 00:28:53.339 battling her own negative self -talk as a teacher. 00:28:53.519 --> 00:28:55.880 But choosing to try new things anyway. Exactly. 00:28:56.079 --> 00:28:58.680 Choosing to experiment, to try new tactics instead 00:28:58.680 --> 00:29:01.339 of giving up, that's hope in action. And Carol 00:29:01.339 --> 00:29:03.819 Dweck's work on mindset is huge here too, right? 00:29:03.880 --> 00:29:07.579 Growth versus fixed. Fundamental. A growth mindset 00:29:07.579 --> 00:29:09.619 believing your abilities can be developed through 00:29:09.619 --> 00:29:12.880 hard work is absolutely key for navigating setbacks. 00:29:13.160 --> 00:29:15.119 Which are inevitable if you're chasing big goals. 00:29:15.319 --> 00:29:17.980 Totally inevitable. With a growth mindset, failure 00:29:17.980 --> 00:29:20.619 isn't proof you're not talented. It's a signal. 00:29:20.819 --> 00:29:23.920 Try harder, learn something new. Duckworth points 00:29:23.920 --> 00:29:27.220 to key PPP schools, how they explicitly praise 00:29:27.220 --> 00:29:30.140 effort and learning over natural talent to build 00:29:30.140 --> 00:29:32.440 that mindset. She even gives tips for cultivating 00:29:32.440 --> 00:29:34.759 it. Like reframing those fixed mindset thoughts. 00:29:34.900 --> 00:29:37.000 Yeah, recognizing them and actively challenging 00:29:37.000 --> 00:29:39.559 them. And she shares great examples of Bill McNabb 00:29:39.559 --> 00:29:41.700 learning to row as an adult and shifting his 00:29:41.700 --> 00:29:44.720 mindset. Outward bound programs, building resilience. 00:29:44.720 --> 00:29:46.839 It shows hope and mindset aren't fixed. They 00:29:46.839 --> 00:29:48.940 can be learned. Definitely. They can be cultivated. 00:29:49.279 --> 00:29:51.779 She even touches on Steve Mayer's later brain 00:29:51.779 --> 00:29:53.859 research showing how control over stress can 00:29:53.859 --> 00:29:57.119 build lasting resilience. And Kevan Asimani's 00:29:57.119 --> 00:30:00.160 amazing story of overcoming adversity with optimism. 00:30:00.750 --> 00:30:03.329 She wraps up with practical advice. Update your 00:30:03.329 --> 00:30:05.890 beliefs about intelligence, brain plasticity, 00:30:05.930 --> 00:30:08.789 practice optimistic self -talk, get support if 00:30:08.789 --> 00:30:11.390 you need it. Okay, so that's growing grit from 00:30:11.390 --> 00:30:14.109 the inside. Interest, practice, purpose, hope. 00:30:14.869 --> 00:30:17.910 But Duckworth also says our environment, the 00:30:17.910 --> 00:30:21.190 people around us, shape our grit from the outside 00:30:21.190 --> 00:30:25.430 in. What are those key external influences? Right, 00:30:25.509 --> 00:30:28.750 the outside influences. Huge impact from parents, 00:30:29.029 --> 00:30:31.869 coaches, teachers, bosses, mentors, even friends. 00:30:32.289 --> 00:30:35.950 She looks at that whole debate, strict versus 00:30:35.950 --> 00:30:39.269 more liberal parenting for fostering grit. Using 00:30:39.269 --> 00:30:41.910 examples like Steve Young and Francesca Martinez. 00:30:42.289 --> 00:30:44.910 Exactly. Steve Young's dad was super demanding, 00:30:45.109 --> 00:30:47.009 wouldn't let him quit. But it came from a place 00:30:47.009 --> 00:30:49.789 of wanting him to succeed. Francesca Martinez's 00:30:49.789 --> 00:30:51.690 parents were more encouraging of her pursuing 00:30:51.690 --> 00:30:54.269 her dreams, but still instilled a strong work 00:30:54.269 --> 00:30:56.450 ethic. So different styles, but maybe a common 00:30:56.450 --> 00:30:58.650 thread. What does Duckworth call it? She calls 00:30:58.650 --> 00:31:00.809 the pattern wise parenting. It's this effective 00:31:00.809 --> 00:31:03.190 blend of being supportive and warm and having 00:31:03.190 --> 00:31:06.230 high expectations, demanding effort. Nancy Darling's 00:31:06.230 --> 00:31:08.349 parenting assessment tool helps think about that 00:31:08.349 --> 00:31:10.410 balance. And wise parenting encourages kids to 00:31:10.410 --> 00:31:13.549 copy parents who model hard work. Yes. Kids emulate 00:31:13.549 --> 00:31:15.950 parents who work hard and believe in long -term 00:31:15.950 --> 00:31:18.769 goals. Mentors beyond parents are huge, too, 00:31:18.849 --> 00:31:21.549 like Juergen for Toby Litke. And then there's 00:31:21.549 --> 00:31:24.549 wise feedback. What makes feedback wise? Wise 00:31:24.549 --> 00:31:26.710 feedback gives you the critical stuff you need 00:31:26.710 --> 00:31:28.809 to hear, but delivers it with high expectations 00:31:28.809 --> 00:31:31.730 and a clear belief that you can reach those expectations. 00:31:32.289 --> 00:31:35.049 It's not just criticism. It's criticism paired 00:31:35.049 --> 00:31:37.930 with confidence in your potential. The Post -it 00:31:37.930 --> 00:31:40.529 notes study she mentions shows how powerful that 00:31:40.529 --> 00:31:43.329 is. And doing hard things you actually like outside 00:31:43.329 --> 00:31:45.670 of school is important, too. That's so. Sports. 00:31:45.960 --> 00:31:49.819 Music, clubs. Definitely. These extracurriculars 00:31:49.819 --> 00:31:52.359 offer that perfect mix of challenge and intrinsic 00:31:52.359 --> 00:31:54.839 motivation. There are great training grounds 00:31:54.839 --> 00:31:57.059 for grit because you want to be there, but you 00:31:57.059 --> 00:31:59.500 still have to persevere. And research backs this 00:31:59.500 --> 00:32:03.210 up. Better outcomes later. Yeah. She talks about 00:32:03.210 --> 00:32:05.170 Willingham's follow through rating, basically 00:32:05.170 --> 00:32:07.529 sticking with a few activities purposefully and 00:32:07.529 --> 00:32:10.269 making real progress. And her own grit grid study 00:32:10.269 --> 00:32:12.210 showed that making multi -year commitments with 00:32:12.210 --> 00:32:13.970 achievement in high school strongly predicted 00:32:13.970 --> 00:32:16.569 sticking with college. She also mentions just 00:32:16.569 --> 00:32:19.920 needing a decent childhood as a foundation. Support 00:32:19.920 --> 00:32:22.519 and opportunities. Yeah, Jeff Canada's perspective. 00:32:22.759 --> 00:32:25.519 Having basic support is crucial. And she even 00:32:25.519 --> 00:32:28.299 includes that fascinating rat study by Eisenberger. 00:32:28.460 --> 00:32:30.519 Where working hard on one thing made them tougher 00:32:30.519 --> 00:32:32.460 on the next thing. Yeah, suggesting that overcoming 00:32:32.460 --> 00:32:34.839 challenges might build a more general capacity 00:32:34.839 --> 00:32:38.220 for grit that transfers. She uses ballet class 00:32:38.220 --> 00:32:41.160 as an example. It's a place to practice interest, 00:32:41.319 --> 00:32:44.480 deliberate practice, purpose, performing, and 00:32:44.480 --> 00:32:47.549 hope. dealing with setbacks all at once. Finally, 00:32:47.630 --> 00:32:49.849 she talks about the power of culture, like Pete 00:32:49.849 --> 00:32:52.190 Carroll with the Seahawks or Anson Dorrance with 00:32:52.190 --> 00:32:55.329 UNC soccer. Culture is huge. It shapes our norms, 00:32:55.349 --> 00:32:58.250 our identities. Pete Carroll emphasizing great 00:32:58.250 --> 00:33:00.910 competitors who are resilient and always expect 00:33:00.910 --> 00:33:03.789 to succeed. Anson Dorrance deliberately building 00:33:03.789 --> 00:33:06.410 a gritty culture with core values. So being around 00:33:06.410 --> 00:33:09.079 gritty people makes you grittier. It's like conformity 00:33:09.079 --> 00:33:11.880 can be an easy way to get grit. The group's norms 00:33:11.880 --> 00:33:15.200 become your norms. Over time, the way we do things 00:33:15.200 --> 00:33:17.240 around here becomes the way I do things. Your 00:33:17.240 --> 00:33:19.480 identity shifts. You make decisions based on 00:33:19.480 --> 00:33:22.259 what does someone like me do now? She gives examples 00:33:22.259 --> 00:33:24.400 like Tom Dyerline, the West Pointer and Ranger, 00:33:24.599 --> 00:33:28.390 defining himself by grit. Or Jamie Dimon at J 00:33:28.390 --> 00:33:31.250 .P. Morgan talking about fierce resolve. Exactly. 00:33:31.450 --> 00:33:34.390 And leaders set the tone. Kaslan at West Point 00:33:34.390 --> 00:33:36.849 leading from the front. Dyerline recalling an 00:33:36.849 --> 00:33:38.950 instructor who believed in him during ranger 00:33:38.950 --> 00:33:41.690 training, helping him push past his limits. Even 00:33:41.690 --> 00:33:44.230 Pete Carroll sees opponents as creating challenges 00:33:44.230 --> 00:33:47.009 that help the team become its best. OK, so wrapping 00:33:47.009 --> 00:33:49.990 up, what are the main takeaways on how we can 00:33:49.990 --> 00:33:52.490 actually grow more grit, looking both inward 00:33:52.490 --> 00:33:56.150 and outward? OK, so two main paths. Inside out. 00:33:56.730 --> 00:33:59.490 Actively find and develop your interests. Commit 00:33:59.490 --> 00:34:02.130 to that tough but rewarding deliberate practice. 00:34:02.349 --> 00:34:04.690 Connect your work to a meaningful purpose beyond 00:34:04.690 --> 00:34:07.430 just yourself. And learn to cultivate hope and 00:34:07.430 --> 00:34:09.969 a growth mindset, especially when you fail. Right. 00:34:10.010 --> 00:34:12.530 And outside in. Surround yourself with the right 00:34:12.530 --> 00:34:15.170 people supportive but demanding wise influences 00:34:15.170 --> 00:34:18.050 like good parents or mentors. And immerse yourself 00:34:18.050 --> 00:34:20.530 in cultures, groups, or environments that genuinely 00:34:20.530 --> 00:34:23.110 value and reward perseverance and learning from 00:34:23.110 --> 00:34:25.429 mistakes. And she adds that important caveat 00:34:25.429 --> 00:34:28.090 at the end. Grit isn't about stubbornly finishing 00:34:28.090 --> 00:34:30.980 everything you start. Crucial point. It's about 00:34:30.980 --> 00:34:34.360 holding fast to that top level ultimate concern, 00:34:34.480 --> 00:34:37.360 that big goal, while being smart and flexible 00:34:37.360 --> 00:34:40.099 enough to adjust the smaller, lower level goals 00:34:40.099 --> 00:34:42.539 along the way if needed. It's strategic perseverance. 00:34:42.980 --> 00:34:45.780 Exactly. And she offers some reassurance. An 00:34:45.780 --> 00:34:48.860 epidemic of grit isn't likely. Many people still 00:34:48.860 --> 00:34:51.159 struggle with commitment. And finally, remember, 00:34:51.400 --> 00:34:54.039 grit isn't everything. Character is complex. 00:34:54.480 --> 00:34:57.199 Self -control, relating to others, intellectual 00:34:57.199 --> 00:35:00.079 curiosity, they all matter. or two. Grit is part 00:35:00.079 --> 00:35:02.659 of performance character, those resume virtues. 00:35:03.000 --> 00:35:05.239 And she leaves us with that big question. Yeah, 00:35:05.280 --> 00:35:07.599 basically asking, is there anything as interesting 00:35:07.599 --> 00:35:09.500 as the psychology of achievement? Could there 00:35:09.500 --> 00:35:11.719 be anything more important? And she throws in 00:35:11.719 --> 00:35:14.219 that bit about Ta -Nehisi Coates viewing failure 00:35:14.219 --> 00:35:17.639 as crucial fuel, driven by curiosity, a good 00:35:17.639 --> 00:35:20.539 reminder that the path isn't smooth. And of course, 00:35:20.559 --> 00:35:22.300 she thanks all the researchers who contributed. 00:35:22.519 --> 00:35:24.099 Well, this has been an incredibly insightful 00:35:24.099 --> 00:35:27.079 deep dive into the power of grit. Thank you so 00:35:27.079 --> 00:35:28.960 much for breaking it all down. I've definitely 00:35:28.960 --> 00:35:31.219 got a lot to think about. My pleasure. It's powerful 00:35:31.219 --> 00:35:33.000 stuff. And hopefully our listeners found some 00:35:33.000 --> 00:35:35.199 valuable takeaways, too. We would absolutely 00:35:35.199 --> 00:35:37.340 love to hear from you all. What was your biggest 00:35:37.340 --> 00:35:41.900 aha moment from this discussion or your key takeaway? 00:35:42.199 --> 00:35:44.059 Drop your thoughts in the comments below. Yeah, 00:35:44.119 --> 00:35:46.400 let us know. And if you found this deep dive 00:35:46.400 --> 00:35:48.440 valuable, please hit that like button and maybe 00:35:48.440 --> 00:35:49.980 share it with someone else who could benefit 00:35:49.980 --> 00:35:52.239 from understanding the real power behind passion 00:35:52.239 --> 00:35:54.780 and perseverance. So here's a final thought to 00:35:54.780 --> 00:35:57.530 chew on. Now that you've explored the science 00:35:57.530 --> 00:36:01.230 of grit, what's maybe one small doable step you 00:36:01.230 --> 00:36:04.130 can take today to cultivate just a little more 00:36:04.130 --> 00:36:06.769 passion or a little more perseverance in an area 00:36:06.769 --> 00:36:08.809 of your life that truly matters to you? Great 00:36:08.809 --> 00:36:10.429 challenge. That's your challenge for the week. 00:36:10.630 --> 00:36:13.730 Until our next deep dive, keep exploring and 00:36:13.730 --> 00:36:14.269 keep striving.