WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:01.940 Hey everyone, welcome to the show. Great to be 00:00:01.940 --> 00:00:04.780 here. Imagine the roar of a 1920s courtroom. 00:00:05.280 --> 00:00:09.539 Uh, packed. But not for some gangster, you know, 00:00:09.619 --> 00:00:13.000 for a preacher. Yeah, a firebrand pastor, J. 00:00:13.119 --> 00:00:16.399 Frank Norris, accused of gunning down a prominent 00:00:16.399 --> 00:00:19.300 lumberman. It's quite the setup. Definitely not 00:00:19.300 --> 00:00:21.579 your typical Sunday morning story. This isn't 00:00:21.579 --> 00:00:23.859 just history, it's, well, it's a true crime story. 00:00:24.320 --> 00:00:28.059 Faith, fury, death. All set against the wild 00:00:28.059 --> 00:00:30.760 backdrop of the roaring 20s. Absolutely. A really 00:00:30.760 --> 00:00:34.320 fervent time, socially, religiously. So if this 00:00:34.320 --> 00:00:36.840 kind of intense, surprising history grabs you, 00:00:36.960 --> 00:00:39.679 definitely hit that like and subscribe button. 00:00:39.740 --> 00:00:41.700 We do deep dives like this all the time. Good 00:00:41.700 --> 00:00:44.219 stuff. Today, yeah, we're jumping into The Shooting 00:00:44.219 --> 00:00:46.799 Salvationist by David R. Stokes. There's an Amazon 00:00:46.799 --> 00:00:48.479 link in the description, by the way. And it's 00:00:48.479 --> 00:00:50.509 meticulously researched, isn't it? Yeah. Uses 00:00:50.509 --> 00:00:52.729 only direct quotes from the time. Exactly. Which 00:00:52.729 --> 00:00:55.570 is amazing. It brings this like sensational case 00:00:55.570 --> 00:00:57.689 you've probably never heard of right back to 00:00:57.689 --> 00:00:59.310 life. And it's more than just the shooting itself. 00:00:59.469 --> 00:01:02.030 Oh, way more. Beyond the shock, you get this 00:01:02.030 --> 00:01:05.469 incredible clash of personalities, huge egos. 00:01:05.689 --> 00:01:08.870 In a city, Fort Worth, just grappling with massive 00:01:08.870 --> 00:01:11.709 change. The oil boom was transforming everything. 00:01:12.010 --> 00:01:14.989 Right. And you see the power of religion, obviously, 00:01:15.030 --> 00:01:18.069 but also the media shaping how everyone saw things. 00:01:18.329 --> 00:01:21.750 We're going to unpack what this forgotten drama 00:01:21.750 --> 00:01:24.090 really tells us about America back then in the 00:01:24.090 --> 00:01:26.769 Jazz Age. As always, we're your guides. We'll 00:01:26.769 --> 00:01:28.569 sift through the details, pull out the juicy 00:01:28.569 --> 00:01:31.170 bits for you. And I'm here to help connect the 00:01:31.170 --> 00:01:33.549 dots. Look at the bigger picture, the significance 00:01:33.549 --> 00:01:36.909 of it all. Okay, so our exploration today. We'll 00:01:36.909 --> 00:01:38.890 look at the key players. You mentioned J. Frank 00:01:38.890 --> 00:01:41.129 Norris, this controversial pastor. Then there's 00:01:41.129 --> 00:01:43.670 Mayor H .C. Meacham, respected guy, owner of 00:01:43.670 --> 00:01:46.370 a big department store. The victim, D .E. Chicks, 00:01:46.549 --> 00:01:50.010 wealthy lumberman. And Fort Worth itself, Texas 00:01:50.010 --> 00:01:53.230 in the 1920s, a really volatile atmosphere. We'll 00:01:53.230 --> 00:01:55.290 dig into what led up to the shooting, the immediate 00:01:55.290 --> 00:01:57.709 aftermath, you know, the chaos. And that sensational 00:01:57.709 --> 00:02:00.459 trial. gripped the whole nation, apparently. 00:02:00.599 --> 00:02:03.319 Our mission really is not just what happened, 00:02:03.379 --> 00:02:07.019 but why it mattered, and maybe what echoes we 00:02:07.019 --> 00:02:09.560 still hear today. We've got bits from the book, 00:02:09.699 --> 00:02:12.360 old news articles, even some personal accounts. 00:02:12.620 --> 00:02:15.300 It's going to be fascinating. Okay, let's unpack 00:02:15.300 --> 00:02:17.979 this. Where do we start? The city. Yeah, let's 00:02:17.979 --> 00:02:20.020 start with Fort Worth, because the setting is 00:02:20.020 --> 00:02:22.900 crucial. Like you said, 1920s Fort Worth wasn't 00:02:22.900 --> 00:02:25.379 some quiet little town. Right, oil money flowing. 00:02:25.599 --> 00:02:28.560 Exactly. Texas -most city, as they called it, 00:02:28.580 --> 00:02:32.099 just booming. And this rapid growth, well, it 00:02:32.099 --> 00:02:35.500 forced changes. Like in city government. Precisely. 00:02:35.520 --> 00:02:37.840 But in the council manager system, trying to 00:02:37.840 --> 00:02:40.280 professionalize things, manage the growth. Which 00:02:40.280 --> 00:02:42.419 probably ruffled some feathers, shifted power 00:02:42.419 --> 00:02:45.270 dynamics. It will have. It created perhaps new 00:02:45.270 --> 00:02:47.349 ways for someone like Norris to challenge the 00:02:47.349 --> 00:02:49.550 old guard. He could engage with the city manager 00:02:49.550 --> 00:02:52.449 and the mayor. It was dynamic, maybe unstable, 00:02:52.650 --> 00:02:55.150 too. Makes sense. And right into the swirling 00:02:55.150 --> 00:02:58.210 pot steps, J. Frank Norris. The book calls him 00:02:58.210 --> 00:03:01.150 a very fundamentalist pastor during the Roaring 00:03:01.150 --> 00:03:03.509 Twenties. Uh -huh. And known for controversy 00:03:03.509 --> 00:03:05.569 and sensationalism, he wasn't exactly low -key. 00:03:05.770 --> 00:03:08.620 No kidding. powerful speaker, great organizer. 00:03:08.840 --> 00:03:12.379 He built First Baptist Church in Fort Worth into, 00:03:12.500 --> 00:03:14.939 well, they called it America's first megachurch. 00:03:15.020 --> 00:03:16.900 Which is incredible for that time. Think about 00:03:16.900 --> 00:03:20.400 that scale. It's striking how he mixed this like 00:03:20.400 --> 00:03:25.000 super conservative doctrine with really modern 00:03:25.000 --> 00:03:28.159 ways of promoting himself. How did that work? 00:03:28.219 --> 00:03:30.939 Why was that combo so potent then? Well, I think 00:03:30.939 --> 00:03:32.539 a couple of things were going on. First, you 00:03:32.539 --> 00:03:34.939 had the rise of fundamentalism itself. It was 00:03:34.939 --> 00:03:37.300 a reaction, right? People felt traditional values 00:03:37.300 --> 00:03:39.060 were under threat. All the change happening, 00:03:39.379 --> 00:03:42.599 prohibition, evolution, debates. Exactly. People 00:03:42.599 --> 00:03:44.979 wanted certainty, strong leaders. Morris gave 00:03:44.979 --> 00:03:47.620 them that, uncompromising. But second, he wasn't 00:03:47.620 --> 00:03:50.199 just preaching in church. He used modern media. 00:03:50.419 --> 00:03:52.500 The newspaper, the radio. Right. The Searchlight 00:03:52.500 --> 00:03:55.379 paper, his radio station. That let him reach 00:03:55.379 --> 00:03:58.259 way beyond the church walls, build a personal 00:03:58.259 --> 00:04:01.159 brand almost. Bypass the usual gatekeeper. So 00:04:01.159 --> 00:04:02.599 it wasn't just sermons. It was building a whole 00:04:02.599 --> 00:04:05.099 movement. Absolutely. They called him a go -getting, 00:04:05.099 --> 00:04:07.860 up -and -coming, fire -eating parson. Even Sinclair 00:04:07.860 --> 00:04:09.740 Lewis, you know, the novelist. He came to Fort 00:04:09.740 --> 00:04:12.240 Worth when he was researching Elmer Gantry. And 00:04:12.240 --> 00:04:15.900 he noted Norris' fame for his flamboyant anti 00:04:15.900 --> 00:04:19.319 -vice crusades. Norris was already a big deal. 00:04:19.720 --> 00:04:22.519 Wow. Okay, so you have Norris. Then there's H 00:04:22.519 --> 00:04:25.019 .C. Meacham, first mayor under the new system, 00:04:25.079 --> 00:04:26.720 owns the department store. Their relationship 00:04:26.720 --> 00:04:30.550 sounds tense. Oh. Definitely fraught. Norris 00:04:30.550 --> 00:04:32.170 wasn't afraid to fight City Hall, that's for 00:04:32.170 --> 00:04:34.990 sure. Classic Clash, really. Established power 00:04:34.990 --> 00:04:38.389 versus this rising, unconventional religious 00:04:38.389 --> 00:04:41.009 force. And there was a city manager, too. O .E. 00:04:41.029 --> 00:04:43.589 Carr. Yes, the first one. His job was efficient 00:04:43.589 --> 00:04:45.689 revenue collection. And pretty soon, he started 00:04:45.689 --> 00:04:48.629 looking into Norris' various enterprises. Tax 00:04:48.629 --> 00:04:50.829 questions, maybe? Uh -uh. That never goes well. 00:04:51.189 --> 00:04:53.610 And don't forget Eamon G. Carter. Huge figure. 00:04:53.920 --> 00:04:55.839 Owned the Fort Worth Star -Telegram radio station 00:04:55.839 --> 00:04:58.939 WBAP, the city's main booster. How did he fit 00:04:58.939 --> 00:05:01.819 in with Norris? Complex. Often tense. Norris 00:05:01.819 --> 00:05:03.620 wasn't exactly his biggest fan, especially when 00:05:03.620 --> 00:05:05.939 it came to media competition. Okay, so a lot 00:05:05.939 --> 00:05:08.120 of powerful men circling each other. And then, 00:05:08.220 --> 00:05:11.639 caught in a crossfire, Dee Chips. The victim. 00:05:12.000 --> 00:05:13.759 Wealthy lumberman. Part of the establishment 00:05:13.759 --> 00:05:16.160 member of the Fort Worth Club. And importantly, 00:05:16.459 --> 00:05:19.279 a friend of Mayor Meacham. So taking sides was 00:05:19.279 --> 00:05:20.800 almost inevitable, it sounds like. Faints that 00:05:20.800 --> 00:05:22.939 picture, yeah. Clear social circles connections. 00:05:23.319 --> 00:05:26.199 And the legal eagles got involved too. Like wild 00:05:26.199 --> 00:05:28.759 Bill McLean. Sounds like a character. Definitely. 00:05:28.899 --> 00:05:31.399 Well -known lawyer. Apparently hated Norris. 00:05:31.480 --> 00:05:33.860 He later became a special prosecutor in the trial. 00:05:34.019 --> 00:05:36.800 And Norris' lawyer. Dayton Moses. Very popular, 00:05:36.879 --> 00:05:39.319 respected Texas lawyer. Took on a huge challenge 00:05:39.319 --> 00:05:41.519 defending Norris. And one more figure you mentioned. 00:05:41.839 --> 00:05:46.360 Lloyd P. Bloodworth. This is wild. Methodist 00:05:46.360 --> 00:05:49.899 minister turned Baptist under Norris. Yeah. And 00:05:49.899 --> 00:05:53.560 the local KKK Grand Dragon. Yeah. That connection 00:05:53.560 --> 00:05:57.800 is stark. It really shines a light on the darker 00:05:57.800 --> 00:06:00.439 undercurrents, the prejudices, the social tensions 00:06:00.439 --> 00:06:03.319 of that time. It's disturbing. Absolutely. So 00:06:03.319 --> 00:06:05.839 Norris' style. Conservative doctrine, modern 00:06:05.839 --> 00:06:07.819 promotion. Comfortable everywhere, it seems. 00:06:08.060 --> 00:06:10.000 Right. Pulpit, political backrooms, boards of 00:06:10.000 --> 00:06:11.959 trade. He knew how to work the system, how to 00:06:11.959 --> 00:06:14.199 use platforms. Like that newspaper, The X -Ray. 00:06:14.319 --> 00:06:16.899 Yeah. He saw its potential early on. Seems like 00:06:16.899 --> 00:06:20.170 it. Initially contributed. Saw it as a tool for, 00:06:20.209 --> 00:06:23.589 quote, public accountability. He always had an 00:06:23.589 --> 00:06:25.389 eye for media leverage. Then there were those 00:06:25.389 --> 00:06:29.490 fires in 1912 at the church, at his home. Yes, 00:06:29.610 --> 00:06:32.569 very mysterious. And anonymous threatening notes 00:06:32.569 --> 00:06:35.910 he supposedly received. Supposedly. Well, the 00:06:35.910 --> 00:06:38.209 book raises the possibility, based on sources 00:06:38.209 --> 00:06:41.389 from the time, that maybe, just maybe, Norris 00:06:41.389 --> 00:06:44.310 had a hand in it himself. Wow. For the trauma. 00:06:44.529 --> 00:06:47.500 For sympathy. Perhaps. It speaks to his understanding 00:06:47.500 --> 00:06:50.500 of narrative, of how to generate support, deflect 00:06:50.500 --> 00:06:53.500 suspicion maybe. Hard to know for sure, but it 00:06:53.500 --> 00:06:55.740 adds a layer. It's a volatile mix. But despite 00:06:55.740 --> 00:06:58.459 all this, his church just kept growing. The world's 00:06:58.459 --> 00:07:00.500 largest Sunday school. Incredible, isn't it? 00:07:00.519 --> 00:07:02.560 It shows his charisma, his connection with his 00:07:02.560 --> 00:07:04.860 followers. They stuck by him through thick and 00:07:04.860 --> 00:07:07.100 thin. And this is all happening against the backdrop 00:07:07.100 --> 00:07:10.540 of rising fundamentalism. Exactly. A major reaction 00:07:10.540 --> 00:07:13.660 to cultural change. Big issues were prohibition. 00:07:14.000 --> 00:07:16.100 keeping it strong, and fighting the teaching 00:07:16.100 --> 00:07:18.319 of evolution. And Norris was a leader in that 00:07:18.319 --> 00:07:21.720 movement. A huge voice, articulating those anxieties, 00:07:21.899 --> 00:07:24.579 offering what felt like solid ground in changing 00:07:24.579 --> 00:07:28.439 times. And part of that, a really big part in 00:07:28.439 --> 00:07:31.139 the mid -20s, was his anti -Catholicism. Oh, 00:07:31.160 --> 00:07:34.519 very much so. A central theme. He talked constantly 00:07:34.519 --> 00:07:37.240 about the menace of Catholicism, this alleged 00:07:37.240 --> 00:07:39.579 plot for the Pope to take over America. Which 00:07:39.579 --> 00:07:44.279 aligned with the KKK's views. Directly. And we 00:07:44.279 --> 00:07:46.879 know about his connections there. He even let 00:07:46.879 --> 00:07:49.660 the Klan use church buildings for an event. It's 00:07:49.660 --> 00:07:51.879 jarring to hear that now. It reflects the time, 00:07:51.920 --> 00:07:54.680 unfortunately, and shows how intertwined some 00:07:54.680 --> 00:07:57.300 religious movements were with those prejudices. 00:07:57.480 --> 00:07:59.279 OK, so he's clashing with the Klan's enemies 00:07:59.279 --> 00:08:01.279 and also with the city's establishment figures 00:08:01.279 --> 00:08:03.439 like Eamon Carter. Right. Their relationship 00:08:03.439 --> 00:08:07.519 was rocky. Norris apparently hoped Hearst buying 00:08:07.519 --> 00:08:10.060 a rival paper would sink Carter's Star -Telegram. 00:08:10.639 --> 00:08:13.009 Didn't happen, though. Carter bought it back. 00:08:13.209 --> 00:08:15.509 Power struggles everywhere. And he took on City 00:08:15.509 --> 00:08:18.410 Hall directly. Oh, yeah. A tap to previous mayor, 00:08:18.550 --> 00:08:21.569 Davis, over city funds. Then went after Mayor 00:08:21.569 --> 00:08:24.670 Meacham and city manager Carr. Taxes, alleged 00:08:24.670 --> 00:08:27.089 misuse of funds. Like a donation to a Catholic 00:08:27.089 --> 00:08:28.829 school. That would definitely get Norris fired 00:08:28.829 --> 00:08:32.330 up. Precisely. He positioned himself as the city's 00:08:32.330 --> 00:08:35.110 moral watchdog, you could say. Holding power 00:08:35.110 --> 00:08:38.110 accountable, in his view. But the feud with Meacham 00:08:38.110 --> 00:08:41.360 got personal, didn't it? Extremely. Norris didn't 00:08:41.360 --> 00:08:44.019 just stick to policy. He went after Meacham's 00:08:44.019 --> 00:08:46.559 private life, brought up a past affair publicly. 00:08:46.940 --> 00:08:50.100 Oof. That's crossing a line. It felt like a real 00:08:50.100 --> 00:08:53.639 escalation. Meacham was, understandably, very 00:08:53.639 --> 00:08:56.059 uncomfortable. Started looking for ways to deal 00:08:56.059 --> 00:08:58.279 with the Norris problem. Including that closed 00:08:58.279 --> 00:09:00.240 -door meeting at the Fort Worth Club. Yeah, trying 00:09:00.240 --> 00:09:02.279 to figure out what to do. It shows the level 00:09:02.279 --> 00:09:04.879 of concern among the city's elite about Norris' 00:09:05.000 --> 00:09:07.789 influence and tactics. And... Then the spark 00:09:07.789 --> 00:09:10.509 that lit the final fuse. Meacham's store manager, 00:09:10.789 --> 00:09:13.850 who was Catholic. Right. He fired eight employees. 00:09:14.190 --> 00:09:16.649 And these employees were all active members of 00:09:16.649 --> 00:09:19.350 Norris' First Baptist Church. Wow. Whether it 00:09:19.350 --> 00:09:21.269 was purely about religion or not, Norris must 00:09:21.269 --> 00:09:23.330 have seized on that immediately. Absolutely. 00:09:23.529 --> 00:09:26.049 It was perfect fodder for him. Proof in his narrative 00:09:26.049 --> 00:09:28.129 that his people were being persecuted for their 00:09:28.129 --> 00:09:30.570 faith. It enraged his followers. You can just 00:09:30.570 --> 00:09:33.990 feel the tension ratcheting up. Exactly. This 00:09:33.990 --> 00:09:37.110 incredibly volatile atmosphere sets the stage 00:09:37.110 --> 00:09:42.429 for the fatal encounter. July 17th, 1926. D .E. 00:09:42.450 --> 00:09:45.110 Chips goes to J. Frank Norris' office. And what 00:09:45.110 --> 00:09:47.669 happened inside? That's the core of it. Accounts 00:09:47.669 --> 00:09:50.149 differ, naturally. Naturally. But the outcome 00:09:50.149 --> 00:09:54.509 is clear. Norris fired three shots. D .E. Chips 00:09:54.509 --> 00:09:56.009 was killed right there in the pastor's study. 00:09:56.409 --> 00:09:58.529 The immediate aftermath must have been chaos. 00:09:58.649 --> 00:10:01.409 Total chaos. Chips was taken to a Catholic hospital, 00:10:01.610 --> 00:10:04.429 St. Joseph's, where he was pronounced dead. That 00:10:04.429 --> 00:10:06.929 detail itself probably inflamed tensions. And 00:10:06.929 --> 00:10:09.769 Mayor Meacham. Reportedly devastated. Emotional. 00:10:10.330 --> 00:10:12.230 Apparently he feared Chips had died defending 00:10:12.230 --> 00:10:14.029 him, trying to confront Norris on his behalf. 00:10:14.370 --> 00:10:16.610 Heavy. What did Norris do? Right after shooting 00:10:16.610 --> 00:10:18.710 someone. Conducted Sunday service the next day. 00:10:19.019 --> 00:10:21.419 Declared his faith was unshaken. Unbelievable. 00:10:21.759 --> 00:10:23.379 Though the book notes, interestingly, that the 00:10:23.379 --> 00:10:25.259 number of converts that day was unusually low. 00:10:25.460 --> 00:10:27.620 Maybe even his flock was a bit stunned. And he 00:10:27.620 --> 00:10:29.539 immediately started framing it as self -defense. 00:10:29.720 --> 00:10:32.100 Right away. Claimed self -defense. Talked about 00:10:32.100 --> 00:10:34.899 a deep, dark -laid conspiracy against him. The 00:10:34.899 --> 00:10:37.500 narrative started instantly. What was his specific 00:10:37.500 --> 00:10:41.500 story to the press? He claimed Chips had called 00:10:41.500 --> 00:10:44.240 him, made threats, then came to his office, was 00:10:44.240 --> 00:10:47.750 angry, and, quote, lunged at him. That's when 00:10:47.750 --> 00:10:50.009 he fired. The classic self -defense posture, 00:10:50.169 --> 00:10:52.909 victim of aggression. Exactly. That was crucial 00:10:52.909 --> 00:10:55.149 for his defense. So the grand jury gets involved. 00:10:55.429 --> 00:10:57.690 Were there immediate questions about his story? 00:10:58.049 --> 00:11:00.710 Oh, yeah. Rumors flew. Like, was there a mystery 00:11:00.710 --> 00:11:03.389 man in the office during the shooting? Things 00:11:03.389 --> 00:11:07.049 like that. But Norris, he wanted to be indicted. 00:11:07.049 --> 00:11:09.309 That seems counterintuitive. It does, but it 00:11:09.309 --> 00:11:11.889 fits his personality, perhaps. The book suggests 00:11:11.889 --> 00:11:14.990 he saw a trial as his ultimate stage. A chance 00:11:14.990 --> 00:11:17.529 to expose this conspiracy he kept talking about 00:11:17.529 --> 00:11:20.649 and rally his base. Precisely. Turn the tables, 00:11:20.769 --> 00:11:23.149 paint himself as the persecuted one on a national 00:11:23.149 --> 00:11:25.950 scale. He got his wish. Indicted for murder. 00:11:26.110 --> 00:11:28.110 And the stakes were incredibly high. The death 00:11:28.110 --> 00:11:30.049 penalty was on the table. Absolutely. This wasn't 00:11:30.049 --> 00:11:32.029 just a scandal. It was life and death. And the 00:11:32.029 --> 00:11:34.529 media just exploded, right? National news. Totally. 00:11:34.730 --> 00:11:37.690 Fort Worth became ground zero for a media frenzy. 00:11:37.889 --> 00:11:39.870 Reporters flooded in. It was a huge sensation. 00:11:40.230 --> 00:11:43.009 And Norris knew how to play that game. Masterfully. 00:11:43.440 --> 00:11:45.580 He actually started selling stock in his newspaper, 00:11:45.779 --> 00:11:47.799 The Searchlight, to raise money for his defense 00:11:47.799 --> 00:11:51.299 fund. Wow. Framing it as investing in the fight 00:11:51.299 --> 00:11:54.419 for truth. Essentially, yes. Defending him was 00:11:54.419 --> 00:11:57.399 defending truth against modern infidelity, as 00:11:57.399 --> 00:11:59.840 he put it. He knew how to mobilize his supporters 00:11:59.840 --> 00:12:02.279 financially and emotionally. They even planned 00:12:02.279 --> 00:12:05.059 a parade for him. A parade of the faithful. They 00:12:05.059 --> 00:12:07.559 did. Initially denied a permit, but they pushed 00:12:07.559 --> 00:12:10.679 and got it granted. Imagine that a parade for 00:12:10.679 --> 00:12:14.039 a man on trial for murder. shows the depth of 00:12:14.039 --> 00:12:16.379 his support. The book mentions how the wives 00:12:16.379 --> 00:12:19.179 were portrayed differently. Mrs. Chips, the widow, 00:12:19.360 --> 00:12:21.519 versus Mrs. Norris. Yeah, that's interesting. 00:12:21.679 --> 00:12:23.879 Mae Chips got the sympathetic treatment, naturally. 00:12:24.899 --> 00:12:27.120 Lillian Norris, the pastor's wife, was often 00:12:27.120 --> 00:12:31.000 depicted as more stoic, tough. A Spartan image. 00:12:31.240 --> 00:12:33.179 Public perception being shaped right there. So 00:12:33.179 --> 00:12:35.320 the trial begins. They tried to move it out of 00:12:35.320 --> 00:12:37.820 Fort Worth. His defense team did, yeah. Argued 00:12:37.820 --> 00:12:40.120 the local feeling was too intense, too biased 00:12:40.120 --> 00:12:42.840 for a fair trial. Motioned for a change of venue. 00:12:43.100 --> 00:12:46.460 But it was denied. Denied. So the trial happened 00:12:46.460 --> 00:12:48.720 right there in Fort Worth. The heart of the storm. 00:12:48.820 --> 00:12:51.659 Made it even more dramatic. Jury selection must 00:12:51.659 --> 00:12:55.139 have been intense. Painstaking. Huge pool of 00:12:55.139 --> 00:12:58.570 potential jurors. Both sides scrutinizing every 00:12:58.570 --> 00:13:01.129 single one, trying to find people not already 00:13:01.129 --> 00:13:03.950 completely decided. And the testimonies must 00:13:03.950 --> 00:13:06.370 have been fireworks. Mayor Meacham testified. 00:13:06.830 --> 00:13:09.590 He did. Talked about why he hired special prosecutors, 00:13:09.629 --> 00:13:12.110 including Wild Bill McLean, denied ever -threatening 00:13:12.110 --> 00:13:14.450 Norris, denied firing those employees just for 00:13:14.450 --> 00:13:16.870 being church members. Did he attack Norris? He 00:13:16.870 --> 00:13:18.690 actually questioned Norris' sanity on the stand, 00:13:18.909 --> 00:13:22.149 raised doubts about his mental state. Ouch. And 00:13:22.149 --> 00:13:24.169 witnesses backed up the idea that a fair trial 00:13:24.169 --> 00:13:26.809 was impossible there. Yes. Several testified 00:13:26.809 --> 00:13:28.889 for the change of venue motion, saying opinions 00:13:28.889 --> 00:13:30.789 in Fort Worth were just too strong, too divided. 00:13:31.009 --> 00:13:33.169 It was hard to find anyone neutral on J. Frank 00:13:33.169 --> 00:13:35.789 Norris. Okay. Key witnesses. Norris' secretary, 00:13:36.070 --> 00:13:38.389 L .H. Nutt, he backed up the self -defense story. 00:13:38.490 --> 00:13:41.429 He did. Claimed chips, made verbal threats, made 00:13:41.429 --> 00:13:43.889 that hip pocket move, suggesting he was going 00:13:43.889 --> 00:13:47.360 for a gun. Crucial for the defense. Yes. Under 00:13:47.360 --> 00:13:50.100 cross -examination, some inconsistencies apparently 00:13:50.100 --> 00:13:52.919 came out in his story. Cracks started to show. 00:13:53.179 --> 00:13:56.259 Then Roxy E. Parker. Her testimony sounded critical. 00:13:56.460 --> 00:13:58.980 Very critical for the prosecution. She said she 00:13:58.980 --> 00:14:02.120 saw Chips leaving the office with a hand raised, 00:14:02.460 --> 00:14:05.639 not lunging forward, right before the shot. That 00:14:05.639 --> 00:14:08.700 directly contradicts Norris' core claim. Directly. 00:14:09.039 --> 00:14:11.480 Huge blow to the self -defense narrative. What 00:14:11.480 --> 00:14:14.340 about J .T. Pemberton? A deacon in Norris' church, 00:14:14.519 --> 00:14:17.070 but new Chips? Right. His testimony apparently 00:14:17.070 --> 00:14:19.669 didn't fit the defense's picture of Chips as 00:14:19.669 --> 00:14:22.590 this purely aggressive figure, complicated things. 00:14:22.789 --> 00:14:24.730 And they brought in people who saw Chips drinking, 00:14:25.009 --> 00:14:28.730 trying to discredit him. Seems like it. A barbershop 00:14:28.730 --> 00:14:31.110 quartet testified they saw him drinking earlier 00:14:31.110 --> 00:14:33.789 that day, trying to paint him maybe as unstable 00:14:33.789 --> 00:14:36.750 or aggressive due to alcohol. Any other corroboration 00:14:36.750 --> 00:14:39.669 of threats? Well, a city patrolman, John Woodruff, 00:14:39.809 --> 00:14:42.210 recalled Chips threatening Norris years before, 00:14:42.409 --> 00:14:45.330 saying he'd put Norris in a grave. Long time 00:14:45.330 --> 00:14:48.210 ago, but maybe relevant to a pattern. Hmm. And 00:14:48.210 --> 00:14:50.570 witnesses who heard the shots? J .M. Gilliam's 00:14:50.570 --> 00:14:53.009 wife heard them. Then saw a man stooping over 00:14:53.009 --> 00:14:56.690 outside. Picking something up. Or just reacting. 00:14:57.289 --> 00:15:00.350 Unclear. And the hotel clerk? L .S. Grubbenberg. 00:15:00.690 --> 00:15:02.629 Testified seeing Chips at the Westbrook Hotel 00:15:02.629 --> 00:15:05.809 twice that day. Potentially relevant to Norris 00:15:05.809 --> 00:15:07.590 claiming Chips called him threateningly from 00:15:07.590 --> 00:15:10.730 the hotel. Connecting dots. Then Norris himself 00:15:10.730 --> 00:15:13.580 takes the stand. The main event. He repeated 00:15:13.580 --> 00:15:16.720 his story, the threats, Chip's anger, the hip 00:15:16.720 --> 00:15:20.000 pocket move, pure self -defense. Did he seem 00:15:20.000 --> 00:15:23.200 convincing? Reports say he got emotional, sobbed 00:15:23.200 --> 00:15:25.799 on the stand, very dramatic performance. And 00:15:25.799 --> 00:15:28.559 he flatly denied saying, I have killed me a man, 00:15:28.700 --> 00:15:30.919 which some reports claimed he said right after. 00:15:31.059 --> 00:15:34.200 But the prosecution had a rebuttal, Clarence 00:15:34.200 --> 00:15:37.039 Wisecup. Yes, he testified seeing a woman run 00:15:37.039 --> 00:15:39.379 from the building right after the shots and hearing 00:15:39.379 --> 00:15:42.259 someone nearby say Norris had killed a man. contradicted 00:15:42.259 --> 00:15:43.980 Norris's version of the immediate aftermath. 00:15:44.259 --> 00:15:46.240 So conflicting accounts right down to the wire, 00:15:46.419 --> 00:15:48.820 closing arguments must have been fiery. Oh, absolutely. 00:15:49.159 --> 00:15:51.600 Dayton Moses for the defense, passionate plea 00:15:51.600 --> 00:15:54.440 for Norris, and wild Bill McLean for the prosecution, 00:15:54.639 --> 00:15:57.000 just tearing into Norris. Did McLean go after 00:15:57.000 --> 00:16:00.059 the defense lawyers too? He did. Accused Moses 00:16:00.059 --> 00:16:03.100 and another lawyer of just being Norris's mouthpieces. 00:16:03.240 --> 00:16:07.100 Real courtroom drama. Okay. The jury goes out. 00:16:07.120 --> 00:16:11.100 What happens? They deliberate. And then... They 00:16:11.100 --> 00:16:14.779 come back. The verdict. Not guilty. Not guilty. 00:16:14.779 --> 00:16:17.120 After all that, acquitted. Acquitted of murder. 00:16:17.500 --> 00:16:19.720 It must have stunned many, delighted others, 00:16:19.840 --> 00:16:21.919 a really shocking conclusion given everything 00:16:21.919 --> 00:16:24.279 presented. What happened to Norris after that? 00:16:24.340 --> 00:16:26.179 Did he just go back to preaching? Pretty much. 00:16:26.500 --> 00:16:28.860 His ministry continued, still full of controversy, 00:16:29.019 --> 00:16:31.240 though. He eventually moved his base to Detroit. 00:16:31.460 --> 00:16:33.460 Paced more trouble there. Another indictment, 00:16:33.460 --> 00:16:36.029 actually. Something different. But he was acquitted 00:16:36.029 --> 00:16:38.809 again. He remained a major figure in fundamentalism 00:16:38.809 --> 00:16:40.950 right up until he died. Did he keep the newspaper 00:16:40.950 --> 00:16:43.250 going? Oh, yeah. Changed the name a couple of 00:16:43.250 --> 00:16:45.909 times. The Fundamentalist of Texas. Then just 00:16:45.909 --> 00:16:48.409 The Fundamentalist. Started a seminary, too. 00:16:48.590 --> 00:16:51.269 Left a big, complicated legacy. And the church 00:16:51.269 --> 00:16:54.669 building in Fort Worth? The scene of the crime? 00:16:54.950 --> 00:16:57.529 First Baptist was rebuilt after the fire. But 00:16:57.529 --> 00:16:59.909 the new auditorium was more basic. Eventually, 00:16:59.909 --> 00:17:02.169 those downtown properties were sold off. And 00:17:02.169 --> 00:17:04.769 now a bank stands there. The Chase Bank building, 00:17:04.990 --> 00:17:08.190 right on the site where Norris shot chips. History 00:17:08.190 --> 00:17:12.750 buried under commerce. Wow. What a story. What 00:17:12.750 --> 00:17:14.630 do you think it all means, looking back? Well, 00:17:14.630 --> 00:17:16.509 the trial just ripped the cover off the deep 00:17:16.509 --> 00:17:18.910 divisions in that community. Religious, social, 00:17:19.089 --> 00:17:22.029 political. And it's a stark lesson in the power 00:17:22.029 --> 00:17:24.750 of personality, of rhetoric. How a charismatic 00:17:24.750 --> 00:17:27.769 figure could command such loyalty, even in the 00:17:27.769 --> 00:17:30.250 face of murder charges. Exactly. And influence 00:17:30.250 --> 00:17:33.740 opinion? maybe even justice it raises big questions 00:17:33.740 --> 00:17:37.960 about faith power the media celebrity things 00:17:37.960 --> 00:17:40.160 we still grapple with so for you listening this 00:17:40.160 --> 00:17:42.500 isn't just an old texas tale it's got layers 00:17:42.500 --> 00:17:45.799 absolutely so wrapping up this deep dive into 00:17:45.799 --> 00:17:48.480 the shooting salvationist it's just a gripping 00:17:48.480 --> 00:17:51.690 true story religious fervor, personal feuds, 00:17:51.730 --> 00:17:53.809 a trial that had the whole country talking. We 00:17:53.809 --> 00:17:55.990 saw this incredibly complex character, J. Frank 00:17:55.990 --> 00:17:58.549 Norris, build a megachurch, huge following, tons 00:17:58.549 --> 00:18:00.710 of controversy, then ends up in a murder trial. 00:18:00.869 --> 00:18:02.829 And it threw a spotlight on the 1920s, didn't 00:18:02.829 --> 00:18:05.150 it? Fundamentalism, the Klan, cities changing 00:18:05.150 --> 00:18:08.069 so fast, all those tensions boiling over. Which 00:18:08.069 --> 00:18:11.190 leads to a thought. Think about the media frenzy 00:18:11.190 --> 00:18:15.250 back then. National news, intense opinions. How 00:18:15.250 --> 00:18:17.549 would a case like this play out today? Oh, wow. 00:18:17.890 --> 00:18:21.609 With instant news, social media, 24 -7 commentary. 00:18:21.910 --> 00:18:24.289 Right. Would it be even more polarized, more 00:18:24.289 --> 00:18:27.170 of a spectacle? What parts of this 1920s drama, 00:18:27.410 --> 00:18:30.509 the faith, the power, the personality clashes, 00:18:30.529 --> 00:18:33.430 the fight for justice, feel surprisingly familiar 00:18:33.430 --> 00:18:35.390 now? That's definitely something to chew on. 00:18:35.450 --> 00:18:37.269 Great point. Thanks so much for joining us for 00:18:37.269 --> 00:18:39.430 this deep dive, everyone. Yeah, this is a fascinating 00:18:39.430 --> 00:18:41.670 one to explore. Really makes you think. We'd 00:18:41.670 --> 00:18:43.289 love to hear your thoughts. What was the most 00:18:43.289 --> 00:18:45.970 surprising detail for you? Or a moment that really 00:18:45.970 --> 00:18:47.990 stuck with you? Drop a comment below. And please, 00:18:48.049 --> 00:18:52.049 if you found this story as compelling and maybe 00:18:52.049 --> 00:18:54.190 as disturbing as we did, share it with someone 00:18:54.190 --> 00:18:55.990 else you think will be interested. Keep the conversation 00:18:55.990 --> 00:18:56.349 going.