WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:01.500 Hey, everyone. Welcome to the show. Great to 00:00:01.500 --> 00:00:04.860 be here. So imagine this for a second. The very 00:00:04.860 --> 00:00:09.480 foundations of American democracy may be slowly 00:00:09.480 --> 00:00:13.320 being chipped away at, not by some external enemy, 00:00:13.439 --> 00:00:17.359 but by this really well -funded, deeply connected 00:00:17.359 --> 00:00:20.600 network working right here. That kind of chilling 00:00:20.600 --> 00:00:23.179 idea is really central to Catherine Stewart's 00:00:23.179 --> 00:00:25.940 book, Money, Lies, and God. It's quite something. 00:00:26.079 --> 00:00:28.539 It really is. And this deep dive, it falls squarely 00:00:28.539 --> 00:00:30.600 into investigative journalism, maybe some political 00:00:30.600 --> 00:00:33.759 analysis, too. Right. Stewart's core argument 00:00:33.759 --> 00:00:37.320 is that what some might see as an anti -democratic 00:00:37.320 --> 00:00:40.219 movement in the U .S., it isn't just the spontaneous 00:00:40.219 --> 00:00:42.960 thing like concerned people just popping up everywhere. 00:00:43.200 --> 00:00:45.600 Not just grassroots. Exactly. She argues it's, 00:00:45.600 --> 00:00:47.619 well, carefully built. It's leadership driven, 00:00:47.780 --> 00:00:50.020 fueled by some serious money and a whole web 00:00:50.020 --> 00:00:52.420 of interconnected organizations. OK. OK. Let's 00:00:52.420 --> 00:00:54.979 unpack that a bit because Stewart kind of. Gives 00:00:54.979 --> 00:00:57.380 us a framework, doesn't she, for understanding 00:00:57.380 --> 00:00:59.520 how this works. She does. She breaks it down 00:00:59.520 --> 00:01:02.159 into key players. Yeah, like the funders. These 00:01:02.159 --> 00:01:05.920 are the wealthy donors, the money behind it all. 00:01:06.000 --> 00:01:08.579 The fuel, basically. Then you've got the thinkers. 00:01:08.859 --> 00:01:11.239 The ones shaping the ideology, pushing the core 00:01:11.239 --> 00:01:14.099 ideas. Precisely. Crafting and spreading the 00:01:14.099 --> 00:01:16.459 message. And then there are the power players. 00:01:16.760 --> 00:01:19.379 Okay, who are they? These are the leaders. often 00:01:19.379 --> 00:01:21.659 of Christian nationalist groups who are really 00:01:21.659 --> 00:01:25.159 skilled at mobilizing what Stewart calls the 00:01:25.159 --> 00:01:28.239 infantry, the infantry, the grassroots supporters, 00:01:28.540 --> 00:01:31.659 the base. Yeah. And the book just meticulously 00:01:31.659 --> 00:01:35.700 traces how this whole network pushes its influence, 00:01:36.040 --> 00:01:39.200 you know, everywhere. Elections, education policy. 00:01:40.159 --> 00:01:42.579 Lots of areas of American life. What really stands 00:01:42.579 --> 00:01:44.400 out, I think, and Stuart does a great job here, 00:01:44.500 --> 00:01:47.180 is how she connects the dots. You see these seemingly 00:01:47.180 --> 00:01:49.400 separate events, different people. And she shows 00:01:49.400 --> 00:01:51.599 how they're actually linked. It's quite revealing. 00:01:51.640 --> 00:01:54.620 She lays bare the sort of underlying structure 00:01:54.620 --> 00:01:56.900 of the whole thing. Totally. It shows how these 00:01:56.900 --> 00:01:58.659 different parts work together, like a coordinated 00:01:58.659 --> 00:02:01.980 strategy. You really see the financial side, 00:02:02.180 --> 00:02:04.260 the organizational structure holding it all up. 00:02:04.359 --> 00:02:06.340 Things that might otherwise just look like random 00:02:06.340 --> 00:02:09.129 noise. Yeah, it takes away that randomness. Absolutely. 00:02:09.610 --> 00:02:12.110 Now, what I personally found fascinating, and 00:02:12.110 --> 00:02:14.569 this isn't really a spoiler, is just the sheer 00:02:14.569 --> 00:02:18.569 scale of it all. The interconnectedness is, well, 00:02:18.689 --> 00:02:20.669 it's kind of mind boggling. It can feel overwhelming. 00:02:20.909 --> 00:02:23.229 It can. Though, credit where it's due, Stewart 00:02:23.229 --> 00:02:25.550 makes this really complex picture pretty understandable. 00:02:27.520 --> 00:02:30.500 the flip side what felt a bit unsettling again 00:02:30.500 --> 00:02:33.860 no spoilers is realizing how many of these key 00:02:33.860 --> 00:02:36.039 figures and especially where the money comes 00:02:36.039 --> 00:02:38.120 from it's hidden a lot of it operates in the 00:02:38.120 --> 00:02:40.439 shadows you know there's a real lack of transparency 00:02:40.439 --> 00:02:42.759 which definitely makes you think about our political 00:02:42.759 --> 00:02:45.039 processes and that's a key tension in the book 00:02:45.039 --> 00:02:47.120 isn't it the difference between the public face 00:02:47.120 --> 00:02:52.319 the rhetoric and the uh Hidden mechanics, the 00:02:52.319 --> 00:02:55.319 funding, the organization. Yeah, exactly. And 00:02:55.319 --> 00:02:57.379 Stewart is super clear. This isn't just like 00:02:57.379 --> 00:02:59.919 popular opinion bubbling up. She really hammers 00:02:59.919 --> 00:03:02.460 the point that it's leadership driven. Very much 00:03:02.460 --> 00:03:05.120 so. It depends heavily on the money, the infrastructure 00:03:05.120 --> 00:03:07.439 these groups build and the specific goals of, 00:03:07.500 --> 00:03:09.919 you know, certain key people. So let's talk about 00:03:09.919 --> 00:03:11.819 those categories again. The funders. Who does 00:03:11.819 --> 00:03:14.439 she actually point to? Well, she named some prominent 00:03:14.439 --> 00:03:16.620 figures, people like Betsy DeVos, the Wilkes 00:03:16.620 --> 00:03:20.620 Brothers, Rebecca Mercer, Tim Dunn, the Cooks. 00:03:21.080 --> 00:03:24.060 you know, familiar names, but also less visible 00:03:24.060 --> 00:03:26.919 ones who funnel money through what's often called 00:03:26.919 --> 00:03:31.080 dark money channels. Ah, dark money. That phrase 00:03:31.080 --> 00:03:33.710 keeps popping up. What does that mean in this 00:03:33.710 --> 00:03:37.909 context? It's basically this complex maze of 00:03:37.909 --> 00:03:41.090 organizations, often set up as nonprofits, that 00:03:41.090 --> 00:03:43.569 aren't legally required to say who their donors 00:03:43.569 --> 00:03:45.810 are. So you can't follow the money easily? Not 00:03:45.810 --> 00:03:47.430 at all. It makes it really tough to see where 00:03:47.430 --> 00:03:49.270 the funding is coming from or just how much there 00:03:49.270 --> 00:03:51.849 is. Okay, so that's the money. What about the 00:03:51.849 --> 00:03:54.539 thinkers? The idea people. Stewart generally 00:03:54.539 --> 00:03:56.719 places them under the banner of the new right, 00:03:56.800 --> 00:03:59.099 although she adds a caveat that the label might 00:03:59.099 --> 00:04:01.879 be a bit misleading, doesn't always fit traditional 00:04:01.879 --> 00:04:04.319 conservatism. Interesting. So what's their main 00:04:04.319 --> 00:04:06.879 idea, according to her? A big part of it, she 00:04:06.879 --> 00:04:09.840 argues, is this belief in an all -powerful, woke 00:04:09.840 --> 00:04:13.979 elite that supposedly controls everything, institutions, 00:04:14.280 --> 00:04:16.800 culture. That sounds familiar, this sort of cancel 00:04:16.800 --> 00:04:19.819 culture idea, but really amplified. Kind of, 00:04:19.819 --> 00:04:22.779 yeah. Framed as this huge systemic threat. But 00:04:22.779 --> 00:04:25.500 Stewart flips that script a bit. How so? She 00:04:25.500 --> 00:04:27.800 suggests that these thinkers, the ones pushing 00:04:27.800 --> 00:04:30.060 this narrative, are actually a powerful elite 00:04:30.060 --> 00:04:32.660 themselves. They're embedded in think tanks, 00:04:32.899 --> 00:04:35.139 advocacy groups. Funded by the same billionaires. 00:04:35.259 --> 00:04:37.939 Heavily funded by them, yes. So she frames their 00:04:37.939 --> 00:04:41.240 anti -woke campaign less as a defense against 00:04:41.240 --> 00:04:45.339 some outside force and more like an, uh... intra 00:04:45.339 --> 00:04:47.939 -elite struggle. A fight within the elite. Using 00:04:47.939 --> 00:04:50.399 the funders' money and the grassroots supporters 00:04:50.399 --> 00:04:53.079 almost as weapons in what she calls an intellectual 00:04:53.079 --> 00:04:56.139 culture war. The key takeaway she offers is that 00:04:56.139 --> 00:04:59.300 this anti -woke stuff often presented as coming 00:04:59.300 --> 00:05:01.399 from the ground up. Might actually be a tool 00:05:01.399 --> 00:05:04.100 used in these power struggles higher up. That's 00:05:04.100 --> 00:05:06.199 her argument. That it's driven from within these 00:05:06.199 --> 00:05:08.540 elite circles. Wow. Okay. That is another layer. 00:05:08.660 --> 00:05:12.689 So money, ideas. than the power players, the 00:05:12.689 --> 00:05:14.709 ones making it happen. Exactly. These are the 00:05:14.709 --> 00:05:17.230 heads of organizations Stewart identifies as 00:05:17.230 --> 00:05:19.310 Christian nationalists. Meaning groups that believe 00:05:19.310 --> 00:05:21.629 Christian values should basically be U .S. law 00:05:21.629 --> 00:05:24.189 and government. That's the core idea. Yeah. Stuart 00:05:24.189 --> 00:05:27.149 mentions figures like, you know, celebrity preachers, 00:05:27.149 --> 00:05:30.230 influential lobbyists, Ralph Reed, Tony Perkins, 00:05:30.269 --> 00:05:32.769 her name she brings up. They hold a lot of personal 00:05:32.769 --> 00:05:35.029 sway, mobilizing their followers. Ready, Courtney. 00:05:35.189 --> 00:05:37.870 Oh, yeah. They meet at places like the Council 00:05:37.870 --> 00:05:40.509 for National Policy, the National Prayer Breakfast. 00:05:41.069 --> 00:05:43.829 These are hubs where we turn financial backing 00:05:43.829 --> 00:05:47.269 and voter enthusiasm into actual political clout. 00:05:47.329 --> 00:05:49.930 So they're the strategists connecting the money 00:05:49.930 --> 00:05:54.160 and the energy to specific. You got it. Stewart 00:05:54.160 --> 00:05:56.500 gives some really vivid examples. She talks about 00:05:56.500 --> 00:05:59.160 attending events where people like Tim Barton 00:05:59.160 --> 00:06:02.000 push this very specific version of American history. 00:06:02.160 --> 00:06:03.939 What kind of version? Asserting the founders 00:06:03.939 --> 00:06:05.620 were all devout Christians. The Constitution 00:06:05.620 --> 00:06:07.920 comes straight from the Bible while painting 00:06:07.920 --> 00:06:11.660 standard U .S. history courses as like. liberal 00:06:11.660 --> 00:06:15.120 brainwashing. And Stewart's point is this isn't 00:06:15.120 --> 00:06:17.399 just some random history talk. It's one piece 00:06:17.399 --> 00:06:20.740 of a much larger coordinated effort to shape 00:06:20.740 --> 00:06:23.379 how people see the world, how they understand 00:06:23.379 --> 00:06:25.779 America. It's about building a whole alternative 00:06:25.779 --> 00:06:29.139 reality almost. Absolutely. And she says this 00:06:29.139 --> 00:06:31.819 gets reinforced by creating an information bubble. 00:06:32.000 --> 00:06:35.500 OK. Like how? Right wing media. That's part of 00:06:35.500 --> 00:06:39.689 it. Sure. But also. The internal networks within 00:06:39.689 --> 00:06:42.750 the Christian nationalist movement itself. Think 00:06:42.750 --> 00:06:45.050 about pastors who attend these big conferences. 00:06:45.389 --> 00:06:47.129 They go back to their churches. And they have 00:06:47.129 --> 00:06:50.569 direct access to millions of people every single 00:06:50.569 --> 00:06:53.430 week. They can deliver a steady stream of political 00:06:53.430 --> 00:06:55.790 messages. And there are groups specifically for 00:06:55.790 --> 00:06:58.649 that, right? Like Faith Wins, Pastors for Trump, 00:06:58.829 --> 00:07:01.290 getting religious leaders involved. Exactly. 00:07:01.290 --> 00:07:05.310 Because for many in their target audience, pastors, 00:07:05.430 --> 00:07:07.990 their church community. Those are the most trusted 00:07:07.990 --> 00:07:10.509 sources. It creates this powerful echo chamber. 00:07:10.649 --> 00:07:13.129 Makes sense. Very effective. Stewart also argues 00:07:13.129 --> 00:07:14.709 they're trying to shift something fundamental, 00:07:14.850 --> 00:07:17.329 like where political legitimacy comes from. Yeah, 00:07:17.389 --> 00:07:19.170 away from the usual democratic stuff, elections, 00:07:19.350 --> 00:07:21.870 courts, law enforcement. And towards what? Towards 00:07:21.870 --> 00:07:24.029 what they see as higher authorities, a sort of 00:07:24.029 --> 00:07:26.629 true spirit of the nation, often framed as God 00:07:26.629 --> 00:07:29.610 -given, divinely ordained. So it allows a minority 00:07:29.610 --> 00:07:31.629 group to feel like they have a right to rule 00:07:31.629 --> 00:07:34.439 regardless of vote counts. That's the implication 00:07:34.439 --> 00:07:37.500 Stewart draws, this belief in a kind of providential 00:07:37.500 --> 00:07:39.399 right to govern. You know, when you hear someone 00:07:39.399 --> 00:07:42.439 like Steve Bannon talking about building a governing 00:07:42.439 --> 00:07:45.420 coalition for 100 years, that sounds like it 00:07:45.420 --> 00:07:47.959 taps into that same kind of thinking. It certainly 00:07:47.959 --> 00:07:51.199 seems to align with that belief in a predetermined, 00:07:51.199 --> 00:07:55.639 almost divinely backed political future. Stewart 00:07:55.639 --> 00:07:58.259 also touches on how the movement reacted to the 00:07:58.259 --> 00:08:00.379 2020 election loss. Right, because if they saw 00:08:00.379 --> 00:08:02.540 their candidate as chosen, losing must have... 00:08:02.699 --> 00:08:04.879 caused some issues it did create some conflict 00:08:04.879 --> 00:08:07.199 yeah though stewart observes that the period 00:08:07.199 --> 00:08:09.560 of uncertainty for most in those circles was 00:08:09.560 --> 00:08:12.019 pretty short -lived really yeah while maybe a 00:08:12.019 --> 00:08:14.240 few initially said okay biden won let's pray 00:08:14.240 --> 00:08:17.639 the vast majority very quickly jumped onto the 00:08:17.639 --> 00:08:20.839 stolen election narrative any initial hesitation 00:08:20.839 --> 00:08:23.560 as stewart puts it didn't stick around long so 00:08:23.560 --> 00:08:25.839 okay Bringing this all together, what's the big 00:08:25.839 --> 00:08:27.699 picture Stewart is painting for us, the listeners? 00:08:27.920 --> 00:08:30.279 She's describing a very organized, extremely 00:08:30.279 --> 00:08:33.620 well -funded, and ideologically committed movement 00:08:33.620 --> 00:08:36.639 that, in her analysis, poses a real challenge 00:08:36.639 --> 00:08:39.679 to democratic norms in the U .S. And she backs 00:08:39.679 --> 00:08:42.340 it up. Oh, definitely. With a lot of evidence, 00:08:42.580 --> 00:08:45.539 naming names, organizations, showing the money 00:08:45.539 --> 00:08:48.259 trails, detailing the strategies they use to 00:08:48.259 --> 00:08:51.419 gain influence, it's a really thorough look at 00:08:51.419 --> 00:08:55.240 these forces at play. Yeah, for me, money, lies, 00:08:55.299 --> 00:08:59.120 and God felt like, well, essential reading. If 00:08:59.120 --> 00:09:00.480 you want to get a handle on the current political 00:09:00.480 --> 00:09:03.059 moment, I'd give it a solid 4 .5 out of 5 stars. 00:09:03.340 --> 00:09:06.960 High praise. Well, the research is just so meticulous. 00:09:06.960 --> 00:09:08.899 It's really impressive. And seeing her connect 00:09:08.899 --> 00:09:11.259 those dots, like we talked about, it really is 00:09:11.259 --> 00:09:14.019 eye -opening. Now, sure, the sheer scale can 00:09:14.019 --> 00:09:16.860 feel a bit daunting. It's a lot to take in. It 00:09:16.860 --> 00:09:19.120 is. And the fact that so much operates out of 00:09:19.120 --> 00:09:22.620 sight, that opacity. Yeah. That's genuinely concerning. 00:09:22.820 --> 00:09:24.740 Yeah. But the book gives you such a valuable 00:09:24.740 --> 00:09:26.980 framework for understanding these complex dynamics. 00:09:27.000 --> 00:09:29.419 It definitely pushes you to think more critically 00:09:29.419 --> 00:09:31.799 about the stories we hear in public life and 00:09:31.799 --> 00:09:34.220 to wonder about the forces often hidden that 00:09:34.220 --> 00:09:36.840 might be shaping them. Absolutely. So if this 00:09:36.840 --> 00:09:38.700 deep dive into these forces shaping democracy 00:09:38.700 --> 00:09:41.000 has got you thinking, definitely hit like and 00:09:41.000 --> 00:09:43.340 subscribe. Please do. We've also put a link to 00:09:43.340 --> 00:09:47.659 Catherine Stewart's Money, Lies and God on Amazon 00:09:47.659 --> 00:09:50.299 down in the description if you want to read it 00:09:50.299 --> 00:09:52.419 for yourself and explore more. And thanks for 00:09:52.419 --> 00:09:54.259 joining us for this deep dive. We always love 00:09:54.259 --> 00:09:56.100 hearing what part of the discussion stood out 00:09:56.100 --> 00:09:57.899 to you. Yeah. What was the most surprising connection 00:09:57.899 --> 00:10:01.720 for you or maybe the most revealing part of what 00:10:01.720 --> 00:10:03.600 we talked about today? Let us know in the comments 00:10:03.600 --> 00:10:06.220 below and please share this with anyone you think 00:10:06.220 --> 00:10:08.559 might find this useful or interesting. And maybe 00:10:08.559 --> 00:10:11.809 just leave you with this thought. Consider the 00:10:11.809 --> 00:10:13.889 impact of this kind of hidden funding, these 00:10:13.889 --> 00:10:16.570 organized networks, not just on who wins elections, 00:10:16.830 --> 00:10:19.950 but on the actual fabric of society. What does 00:10:19.950 --> 00:10:22.710 that make you wonder about transparency, about 00:10:22.710 --> 00:10:24.690 influence in our democracy today?