Hey, everyone. Welcome to the show. Great to
be diving in again. So picture this. Two women,
empresses really, living these incredibly grand
lives, but under this constant microscope, everything
they did, watched. Elizabeth of Austria and Eugenie
of France. Yeah, huge figures. And their stories,
well, they're packed with dazzling highs, but
also some really crushing lows. It's quite something.
Absolutely. And today we're getting into that
through the lens of... biography in history specifically
nancy goldstone's book the rebel empresses it
was a really compelling read it is goldstone
gives you this like amazing window into empress
elizabeth cc you know and empress eugenie and
the research is just so thorough you see these
moments where their lives kind of intersect yeah
and you understand the shared pressures they
faced imperial life the public eye oh and the
personal tragedies too Big ones. Definitely.
What I really loved reading it was how Goldstone
brings them to life. You get their strengths,
sure, but also their vulnerabilities. It feels
very human. Right. And it's not just personal
stories in a vacuum. Yeah. She does a great job
placing them within that whole sweep of European
politics at the time. You see the bigger picture.
Exactly. And another thing, the parallels between
them. Yeah. You wouldn't necessarily expect it,
right? Different backgrounds, different empires.
But the challenges they faced, surprisingly similar
sometimes. Yeah. The book really draws those
connections out well. It gives you a unique angle
on them. Now, one thing maybe, not a criticism
exactly, but something to be aware of. Go on.
Sometimes the amount of historical detail. Yeah.
It can feel a little dense, you know? Okay. Yeah,
I can see that. Goldstone definitely did her
homework. It's packed. But like you said, it
does enrich the story in the end. It gives you
that full context. Totally agree. So overall
rating? I'd give it a solid four out of five
stars. Really strong. Yeah, me too. Definitely
a four. Okay, so let's dive in a bit. The book
kicks off with this really specific scene, doesn't
it? August 1867, Salzburg Station. Ah, yes, the
big meeting. Elizabeth of Austria, Eugenie of
France, wives of these two major emperors meeting.
And what's immediately striking is how everyone,
the public, the press, they basically treated
it like, well, like a beauty pageant. It's incredible,
isn't it? There were serious political talks
happening, huge European powers meeting, but...
The main fascination. Who looked better? It just
shows you the kind of scrutiny they were under.
So intense and often so superficial. They even
had a life -size statue of CeCe there. In the
waiting room. Decked out with flowers. Talk about
home field advantage, right. And the press covers,
like you said, all about appearance. The Daily
Telegraph guy. Oh yeah, noting CeCe was taller,
slender. And that rather mean comment about Eugenie
looking stout of late. Ouch. It's quite something.
Reading that kind of personal commentary passed
off as news, and they were annoyed Eugenie wore
a veil at first, couldn't immediately judge her
looks. But quick to praise Elizabeth's spirited,
refined countenance, you just feel the pressure
quicker they lived in, always having to look
perfect. Exactly, like their main job was just
to be decorative. But the book, thankfully, goes
way beyond that. It looks at where they came
from, how they ended up in these positions. Let's
start with Elizabeth, with Cece. Her father,
Duke Max in Bavaria. He sounds, well, unconventional.
Oh, completely. Goldstone paints him as almost
operatic, doesn't she? Handsome, loves sports,
music. A real character. Yeah, and desperate
to escape the eternal uniformity of an everyday
life, as he put it. That quote says it all. Really?
Yeah. And him taking off for Egypt for eight
months, just weeks after Sisi was born with a
huge entourage. Yeah. It gives you a sense straight
away that her childhood probably wasn't your
standard stuffy royal upbringing. And it wasn't.
Her mother, Ludovica, had a very different path.
Her own marriage prospects were sort of sacrificed
for family politics, weren't they? Right. She
was meant for the crown prince of Portugal, but
her mother thought Lisbon was too far, the prince
unsuitable. So she ends up married to her cousin,
Duke Max. A man she was apparently indifferent
to. And she even lost her title. Princess of
Bavaria. You can imagine there might have been
some resentment there. Sounds incredibly frustrating.
But despite their own issues, it seems they didn't
let it poison the kids' childhoods. Apparently
not. Goldstone says Cece had a really happy,
almost idyllic childhood. Big family, lots of
life that probably shaped her quite a bit. Definitely.
And Duke Max, despite his travels, took his procreation
duties seriously. Seems like it. A baby every
couple of years. Cece had loads of siblings by
the time she was seven. That close, lively family
must have fostered her independence. Okay, now
let's switch to Eugenie. Her father, Don Cipriano,
Count of Taba, also quite a history there, lost
an arm at Trafalgar. Yeah. and got tangled up
in all that Spanish political turmoil. Power
struggles between King Carlos and his son Ferdinand
ended up arrested. So Eugenie's early life had
this undercurrent of instability right from the
start. Absolutely. And it sounds like her mother,
Maria Manuela, was the real powerhouse navigating
all that. Appealing directly to Don Cipriano's
brother to get him out of prison, that takes
guts. She seems incredibly resourceful, moved
the family strategically. inherited money, ended
up in Paris. Her social skills and connections
were clearly key. And brought her into contact
with people like Prosper Merrimay, the writer.
Right, who was apparently totally charmed by
her and became a family friend, even played games
with young Eugenie. Little details like that.
They really help you connect, don't they? But
for both women, becoming empresses, that was
the huge turning point. And maybe neither was
fully prepared. Sisi's marriage to Franz Joseph
sounds like a whirlwind. Especially since she
wasn't the one he was supposed to be marrying.
Right. It was meant to be her older sister, Helene.
Nene. Ludovica brought them both, hoping the
emperor would choose Helene. And Helene seemed,
on paper, the more obvious choice. Older, poised,
more royal. Even Franz Joseph's tough mother,
Archduchess Sophia, approved of her conversation
skills. Looked like it was all set. But nope.
Franz Joseph sees Elizabeth, and bam. instantly
smitten. One day, one carriage ride. And he just
announces, I'm marrying Elizabeth. Imagine the
shock. Totally. And Cece's reaction is so telling,
isn't it? When her mother told her, she apparently
said something like, but how can he think of
me? I'm so insignificant. It really shows her
youth, maybe a lack of self -awareness about
the impression she made. Definitely. And while
the wedding news made headlines, Goldstone points
out it wasn't actually the biggest news out of
Austria then. No, that was the emperor's upcoming
meeting with the czar. Politics always simmering
in the background. Always. So while friends,
Joseph is falling in love. There are these huge
international stakes. And the prep for Sisi becoming
empress sounds intense. Especially with Archduchess
Sophia overseeing things. She knew Elizabeth
wasn't trained for the role. Not at all. Wedding
date set fast, but then it was all about rigorous
training, this enormous trousseau. Even Elizabeth's
teeth needed attention, apparently. The pressure
to fit the Habsburg mold must have been immense.
Yellow teeth, wow. Right. Now, Eugenie's path
to empress. Quite different, not a prearranged
royal match. No, she married Louis -Napoleon
Bonaparte, who became Emperor Napoleon III after,
well, a lot of political maneuvering. And her
family's move to Paris, her mother's connections,
that put her right in the center of French high
society. She became a real figure, admired for
her beauty, fashion, spirit. But the courtship
with Louis Napoleon wasn't straightforward, was
it? He had a bit of a reputation. A bit. Yeah,
no one ladies, man. There was even that rumor
he was initially after Eugenie just to get closer
to her sister. Which led to that awful incident.
Eugenie thinking he liked her, finding out it
was her sister, and then... Taking poison. In
despair. It's a shocking story. Yeah. Shows the
intense emotions even before she became empress.
A really stark reminder of vulnerability. But
eventually he did propose. They married in 1853.
Big turning point for France and for her. And
notice the timing again. Just like Sisi's wedding
happened amid political tension, Eugenie's marriage
came as Louis -Napoleon was cementing his power
as the new emperor. Some saw the marriage as
strategic, right? To soften his image, maybe?
Goldstone suggests that, yeah, show a more personable
side. And those early years of their reign seemed
full of optimism. Big plans for France. Railway
expansion. The Exposition Universelle planning.
Trying to rival London's great exhibition. And
the huge modernization of Paris under Baron Haussmann
starting then too. New boulevards, sewers, markets.
A real sense of progress. Establishing France
as a modern power. But Eugénie's early years
as empress. Also marked by personal tragedy,
that miscarriage. Yes, relatively early on, a
huge emotional blow, adding to the pressure she
was already under. That letter she wrote to her
sister, Paka. It's heartbreaking. You feel her
longing for an heir, but also her fear, thinking
about Louis VII, Marie Antoinette. It reveals
those deep anxieties beneath the surface of imperial
life. It's just fascinating seeing these parallels
and contrasts, both thrust into these demanding
roles, complex politics, public scrutiny, and
dealing with personal joy and sorrow. And for
both, their mothers -in -law played such a huge
role, especially Archdiocese Sophia for Assisi.
What a presence. Formidable is the word. Sophia
had basically engineered Franz Joseph's succession,
and she had very firm ideas about how things
should be done, how an empress should act. And
she clearly had a huge influence over Franz Joseph,
and definitely over the young Elizabeth initially.
You can just feel the tension brewing. Yeah,
the book mentions Cece hugging cousins at her
wedding, and Sophia immediately shuts it down.
Breach of protocol. Even the wedding night sounds
incredibly stiff and controlled, orchestrated
by Sophia. It paints this picture of a super
rigid court. And Cece, with her freer Bavarian
background, she must have chafed against it constantly.
That honeymoon at Luxembourg sounds anything
but romantic. Constantly watched, judged by Sophia.
Even minor things becoming affairs of state.
She ended up going on long rides with Franz Joseph
just to escape, apparently. Or hiding in her
rooms with her parrots on rainy days, writing
letters home, so isolated. You really feel for
her. Now, Eugenie, she didn't have quite the
same domineering mother -in -law figure. No,
but she had other challenges as an outsider.
Dealing with snobbery from some of the established
Bonaparte family, right, because she wasn't royalty
by birth. Exactly. That was a key difference.
Right. But the pressure to produce an heir, that
was intense for both of them. And for Eugenie,
that early miscarriage just made it worse. It
wasn't until after that trip to London and getting
advice from Queen Victoria herself. That she
finally conceived successfully. The birth of
the Prince Imperial in 1856. Huge relief and
celebration in France. Secured the succession.
Massive moment for them. And similarly. The pressure
on Sisi for an heir in Austria was immense. And
the dynamic with Sofia over the children, that
became a real battleground. Oh, absolutely. When
her first daughters, Sophie and Casella, were
born, Sofia just took over their upbringing.
Believed Cece wasn't capable? Imagine. Elizabeth
must have been furious, resentful, wanting a
say in her own kids' lives. Which led to conflict.
Like when Elizabeth insisted on taking little
Sophie to Italy for her health, against Sophia's
wishes. That was a bold move. Pushing back directly.
And crucially, Franz Joseph actually sided with
Elizabeth on that one. Which was huge. A real
turning point. Showing Elizabeth she could sometimes
challenge Sophia's authority. A small victory.
But significant. So both women in their different
ways found strategies to navigate these constraints,
sometimes conforming, sometimes rebelling subtly
or not so subtly. And they both grew into influential
figures beyond just being wives and mothers.
But their lives remain tangled up with political
upheaval and sadly, more tragedy. Yeah. That
rise of nationalism across Europe, shifting alliances.
It made things increasingly volatile for both
empires. Definitely. Napoleon III wanted to reassert
French power, which led to involvement in the
Crimean War, the war in Italy. Which brought
glory, yes, but also cost a lot, financially
and in lives. And it stirred up tensions with
other powers. And that Italian war directly hit
Austria too. Franz Josef lost Lombardy and Venetia.
Big defeat, fueling internal dissent in the Habsburg
Empire. And it's fascinating how both women got
drawn into these politics, sometimes deliberately,
sometimes not. Eugenie had strong opinions. And
tried to influence Napoleon III, though maybe
not always subtly. That incident where she tried
to suggest Archduke Maximilian for the Spanish
throne. Huh. Yeah, apparently baffling the Austrian
ambassador. A bit clumsy, maybe. But it showed
she was engaged. Elizabeth, though, found her
cause more with Hungary, didn't she? Yes, she
played a really key role in the compromise that
created the dual Austro -Hungarian empire. Her
empathy for Hungarians, learning the language,
it made her hugely popular there. After years
of tension, that trip she and friends Joseph
took to Pest. They were greeted with such enthusiasm,
her presence was seen as crucial in healing that
rift. It really is remarkable. Both women, initially
valued for beauty and airs, carved out real influence.
But that thread of tragedy, it keeps running
through. Maximilian in Mexico is just heartbreaking.
France, Joseph's brother, accepting that doomed
title, emperor of Mexico. And the French intervention,
pushed by Napoleon III and Eugenie, is a total
disaster. Maximilian ended up captured and executed.
A devastating blow for both the French and Austrian
imperial families shows the danger of these ambitions.
And for Eugenie, who championed the Mexican venture,
it must have been personally shattering. You
read about Charlotte's letters, Maximilian's
wife going from hopeful to just despair. That
failure in Mexico was just one challenge. Then
came the rise of Prussia under Bismarck, a huge
threat to both Austria and France. Leading to
the Austro -Prussian War and then the big one,
the Franco -Prussian War. Which was catastrophic
for France. The end of the Second Empire, exile
for Napoleon III and Eugenie. It happened so
fast. Yeah, Bismarck's manipulation of that Ems
telegram, masterful. In a dark way. And Eugenie
acting as regent while Napoleon III is at the
front. She was basically ignored by her own government.
Yeah. And then the French army just collapsed.
Napoleon III captured it sedan. The news hitting
Paris. Revolt, the Third Republic proclaimed.
Eugenie had to flee the Tuileries Palace. That
scene Goldstone describes. Escaping with just
one lady in waiting. Recognized by a kid in the
street. Bundled into a carriage. The end of an
era. Just like that. So dramatic. And Elizabeth.
Her own huge personal tragedy came later with
Crown Prince Rudolf. Her only son. His suicide
at Meierling. The grief must have been unbearable.
Compounded by the public scrutiny, the hostility
she faced in Austria afterwards. And that official
verdict of temporary derangement. Yeah. Echoing
the rumors around King Ludwig II's suicide earlier.
Haunting her with this fear she'd pass on some
insanity. Her isolation then sounds profound.
Both women lost their sons. Unimaginable pain.
Eugenie's son, the Prince Imperial, died years
later too, fighting for the British in South
Africa. Tragic echoes. But despite everything,
the fall of empires, the personal losses, both
women lived long lives afterwards. Eugenie in
exile in England, still a respected figure in
royal circles. And Elizabeth becoming more withdrawn.
Eccentric maybe, but still traveling, still fascinating
the public right up until her assassination in
Geneva in 1898. A shocking end. It really is.
A poignant finish to a life of such contrasts.
Goldstone mentions how even late in life, Eugenie
would visit a memorial to Elizabeth. A silent
nod to that connection they shared. Wow. just
incredible lives. So if this glimpse has intrigued
you, you really should pick up Nancy Goldstone's
The Rebel Empresses to get the full rich story.
Absolutely. We've put an Amazon link down in
the description for you. Make it easy. And hey,
if you enjoyed this deep dive, please do give
us a like and definitely subscribe so you don't
miss our future explorations. We really appreciate
it. We do. Thank you so much for joining us today
as we just scratched the surface of this amazing
historical account. We genuinely love to hear
what stood out most to you about Elizabeth and
Eugenie. Was there a particular moment or maybe
you have questions? Yeah. Drop your thoughts,
your favorite bits, any questions in the comments
below. We love reading them and hearing what
you think. Your engagement really makes this
worthwhile. So until next time. Until next time.
Thanks for listening.