WEBVTT

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Hey, everyone. Welcome to the show. Glad to be

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here. So think the way the world works now. You

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know, countries interacting, trade, international

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rules is purely a Western invention. Hmm. Yeah,

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that's a common thought. Well, prepare to have

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that picture flipped on its head. Today, we're

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digging into Amitav Acharya's The Once and Future

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World Order. It's a really interesting book.

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Nonfiction sort of history meets political science.

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Exactly. And it basically argues that the global

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system we have isn't just from Europe and North

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America. Far from it, actually. Yeah. The core

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idea is that. loads of different civilizations

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chipped in over time, it suggests that maybe

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this long period of Western dominance is shifting.

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And, well, we need to understand that shift.

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Right. It's like the book is tackling this kind

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of historical amnesia about all the non -Western

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contributions. Precisely. He sees the international

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order less as a Western blueprint and more like

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a mosaic, different pieces from different places

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and times. I love that aspect. The way it uncovered

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non -Western roots for things I always thought

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were, you know, Western diplomacy, trade ideas.

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Oh, absolutely. That was a big one for me, too.

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The sheer historical sweep, going through so

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many different cultures and seeing their contributions

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laid out. Yeah, that historical detail was amazing,

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though I'll admit sometimes it felt like, wow,

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this is a lot of information. I get that. It

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can be dense. You definitely need to pay attention

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because some arguments are quite complex, quite

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nuanced. True. And because it covers so much

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ground. Some parts maybe feel a bit less explored

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than others, but that's probably unavoidable

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with such a big scope. Fair point. But back to

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the core, this idea that concepts like diplomacy

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or trade principles didn't just spring up in

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Enlightenment Europe. Exactly. Acharya takes

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us way back into Mesopotamia, Egypt, then Persia,

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India, China. the Islamic world, even Africa

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and pre -Columbian America. Showing how all these

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societies had their own ways of thinking about

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order, peace, interacting with neighbors. It

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really challenges that whole Western exceptionalism

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idea, doesn't it? The notion that the West somehow

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uniquely invented the rules for international

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relations. Totally. The book digs into how different

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cultures faced similar problems, organizing politically,

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managing relations between groups, setting up

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rules of behavior. What really jumped out at

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me early on, was how he finds non -Western origins

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for stuff we link to the West, like early Mesopotamia

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and Egypt. Right, the emergence of something

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that looks a lot like independent states. Yeah,

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and divine rulers, even early cooperation between

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big powers. It makes you rethink where the basic

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building blocks actually come from. So what specifically

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stood out from those early examples? Well, those

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Amarna letters. The messages between rulers in

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the ancient Near East, they show a surprisingly

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sophisticated diplomatic setup. Expectations

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of give and take, mutual respect. Right. Like

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that king of Babylon complaining to the pharaoh

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about a cheap gift. It sounds so human. So much

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like today's diplomacy just thousands of years

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earlier. And importantly, between non -Western

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powers. Exactly. It suggests these fundamental

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challenges of how states get along, the need

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for rules. It's not unique to one culture or

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time. And Acharya stresses that these developments

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aren't isolated. There's always borrowing, adapting

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across cultures. Like Akkadian becoming the diplomatic

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language back then. That's a great example of

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that exchange. Precisely. But it wasn't all cooperation,

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obviously. The book talks about empires rising

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like Sargon of Akkad. The empire concept, a recurring

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theme. Yeah. And the justification was often

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about bringing order to chaos. We see that story

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again and again, right? That chaos versus order

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narrative is key. It often legitimized rulers,

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framing them as needed, even divinely chosen

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to impose order. And well, to expand their power.

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It shows how ideas about legitimacy and power

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were linked way back then across different cultures.

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Definitely. Another thing I found really interesting

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was the discussion on divine monarchy. Oh, yeah.

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Acharya argues it's been like the most common

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and lasting political system ever popping up

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everywhere. Pharaohs, Indian god kings, European

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divine right. Exactly. This idea of rule being

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backed by a higher power just kept going. What

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does that tell us? Well, it does make you wonder

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about how societies historically sought authority

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and stability. Maybe a deep need to look beyond

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just human power for legitimacy. Hmm. Interesting

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point. Now, shifting slightly ancient Greece,

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the book makes you rethink that, too. How so?

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We usually see it as the birthplace of democracy

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and Western thought. Right. But Acharya argues

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we often overplay Greece's uniqueness and downplay

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its links to older civilizations like Egypt and

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Mesopotamia. So the idea is that Western thought

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has more diverse non -Western roots than we usually

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admit. Pretty much. He emphasizes Greece as a

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Mediterranean civilization with lots of interaction

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with Africa and Asia, not just some isolated

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European ancestor. That selective view does tend

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to ignore those connections. And it wasn't just

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ideas. He points out Greek colonization was often

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different from, say, Persian or Indian influence

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spreading. Different how? Greek colonization

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often seemed more focused on keeping a distinct

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Greek identity, less on cultural mixing. Ah,

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interesting. Compared to, say, Indian culture

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spreading in Southeast Asia, which often blended

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with local traditions. Exactly. It highlights

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different approaches empires took to expansion

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and dealing with other peoples. That comparison

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is quite revealing. And Persia, the book really

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flips the script on the usual Persia versus democratic

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Greece narrative. Yeah, often painted as the

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total opposite. But Asharia highlights their

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indirect rule. letting cultures keep customs,

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even supporting Greek thinkers in Anatolia. He

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quotes Plato praising Persian freedom of speech

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under Cyrus. Wow, that's definitely not the standard

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picture. Makes you wonder how much perspective

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shapes history, doesn't it? It certainly challenges

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inherited narratives and their potential biases.

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Persia shows there were different ways to run

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an empire, maybe more focused on accommodation

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sometimes. Then there's Ancient India. The book

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covers Republican traditions, the Ganasangas

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with assemblies, voting. And Ashoka's ethical

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rule based on Buddhist ideas. Right. Ashoka turning

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to nonviolence after that brutal war. It's such

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a different leadership model. It shows these

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ideas about republics and ethical governance

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weren't just Western. They have roots elsewhere,

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too. Ashoka's focus on ethics and people's welfare

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laid out in his edicts is a powerful early example.

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of morality and governance stands out against

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the usual focus on conquest it really does and

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indian philosophy like the samkhya school suggesting

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natural explanations for the universe not divine

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ones that was another eye -opener seeing that

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kind of rational secular thinking emerging outside

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the west so early on it suggests that trying

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to understand the world through reason is well

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a global thing with diverse origins not just

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a greek thing that led to western science Fascinating

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to see those parallel tracks of inquiry across

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civilizations. It just underlines that curiosity

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isn't confined to one tradition. Okay, then China.

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A long, complex history of world order concepts

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there. The mandate of heaven, Tianxia. Yeah,

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the mandate of heaven legitimizing rule based

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on governing justly, caring for the people. And

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Tianxia thinking the whole world is the unit

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aiming for harmony. Very different from the Westphalian

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state system. How would you say the key difference

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plays out? Well, the Chinese concept seemed to

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lean towards a hierarchical order, but one that's

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potentially morally accountable. Westphalia is

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more about equal, sovereign states not interfering

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with each other. And the mandate of heaven allowed

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for rebellion against bad rulers, right? Which

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is different from the more absolute divine right

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of kings in Europe. Good point. And Tianxia,

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focusing on harmony, is just a different vibe

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than the Western focus on state competition.

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It's interesting, too, how some of those Chinese

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ideas influenced Enlightenment thinkers in Europe,

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like Voltaire, seeing China as a model of rational

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rule. It really highlights the connections, doesn't

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it? How non -Western ideas shaped Western thought,

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even if it's not always acknowledged. Definitely

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underscores that point. Moving to the Islamic

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world. The book details its huge expansion and

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becoming this major learning hub when Europe

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was in its so -called dark ages. The translation

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work, preserving Greek, Persian, Indian texts,

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crucial. Absolutely. And the contributions of

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Islamic scholars, plus concepts like Etihad,

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that independent reasoning and law showing intellectual

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energy. And places like Cordoba with the Convivencia.

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Yeah, that peaceful coexistence between religions.

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A powerful contrast to religious conflicts in

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Europe then. What's the lasting impact? Well,

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that knowledge transfer was vital for the European

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Renaissance. Fundamental, really. The preservation,

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advancement, and transmission of knowledge to

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Europe set the stage for so much later development.

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The book also looks at the Indian Ocean trade

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network, thriving for centuries without one dominant

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power controlling it. That idea of the sea as

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a shared space. So different from the European

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approach, which often became about dominance

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and control, that quote from the Sultan of Goa,

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God made the sea common, sums it up perfectly.

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It suggests stable, prosperous global systems

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can exist without one big boss, one hegemon.

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Yeah, the system relied more on shared institutions,

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mutual interests. Yeah. But then the Europeans

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arrived. Seeking monopolies, using force, fundamentally

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changing that more open system. Which brings

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us to colonialism, a huge theme. Acharya details

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how exploiting the Americas, especially with

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the slave trade, fueled Europe's rise. The sheer

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amount of resources, silver especially, pouring

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into Europe. It reshaped economies. But, as the

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book stresses, at a horrific cost to indigenous

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peoples in the Americas. The Aztec example, their

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sophistication surprising Cortes, really highlights

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the tragedy. So the takeaway about the West's

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rise. It was deeply tied to exploiting and subjugating

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other parts of the world. Inextricably linked.

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That wealth transfer was a critical foundation

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for Europe's later dominance. And Africa's contributions

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often ignored in Western histories. But Acharya

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points to empires like Ghana and Mali. Complex

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political and cultural systems. Right. And principles

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of justice in some African traditions, too. It

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shows the history of governance is much richer

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than a purely Western view suggests. It really

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challenges that idea of Africa being somehow

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less developed before Europeans showed up. But

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the slave trade and then the scramble for Africa

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were catastrophic. Disrupting societies, economies.

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Those arbitrary borders drawn in Berlin still

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cause problems today. That colonial period cast

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a very long shadow, lasting instability, economic

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challenges. A profound and enduring legacy. The

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book highlights a crucial double standard with

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the Peace of West Dalia. How so? Well, it set

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up this anti -hegemonic order in Europe based

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on sovereign states. While at the same time,

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European powers ramped up colonization outside

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Europe. Peace at home, subjugation abroad. That's

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a critical tension, isn't it? A fundamental contradiction

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in how the modern system developed. And the standard

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of civilization concept justified this inequality,

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dividing the world into civilized and not based

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on racist criteria. Japan's attempt to join the

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club by westernizing is a fascinating, if complicated,

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example of navigating that. Yeah, it shows the

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pressure on non -Western nations to conform just

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to get recognition. Underscores the power dynamics

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and the costs involved. Racism is another key

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thread, obviously tied to colonialism and slavery.

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Acharya shows how European thinkers even justified

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slavery, how racial hierarchies got baked into

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Western structures, like in the U .S. Even with

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its ideals, the U .S. had its own civilizing

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mission against nations. of Americans and the

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Monroe Doctrine asserting dominance. It mirrors

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European spheres of influence and the shadow

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of that racism. It still shapes global inequalities

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today. A long and damaging legacy. Absolutely.

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The book also questions if the post -WWII American

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liberal order was ever truly universal or equally

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good for everyone. More like a club good for

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certain nations. Exactly. And now the rise of

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powers like China and India is challenging that

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order, pushing towards a more multipolar world.

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The Bandim conference back in 55 was a key moment

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there. Right. Newly independent nations speaking

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up, linking colonialism, human rights, racism,

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a real assertion of non -Western agency. A turning

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point, pushing back against Western dominance,

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setting a different agenda. So ultimately, Acharya

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argues the current world order isn't just Western.

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It's shared with input from many places. The

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shift away from Western dominance might not be

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bad, could lead to something more inclusive.

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He talks about a multiplex world, multiple power

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centers, different nations leading on different

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issues. Yeah. And he seems skeptical that China,

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for instance, could or would recreate a purely

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Sinocentric system. The world's just too diverse

00:13:01.960 --> 00:13:04.700
now. The likely future seems more complex, more

00:13:04.700 --> 00:13:07.659
multipolar than the last few centuries, a more

00:13:07.659 --> 00:13:10.750
diffused power structure. So after digging into

00:13:10.750 --> 00:13:13.509
all this history, my final take on the once and

00:13:13.509 --> 00:13:16.710
future world order, I find it incredibly insightful.

00:13:16.909 --> 00:13:19.029
Really challenged my assumptions. It does make

00:13:19.029 --> 00:13:20.990
you think differently. The sheer amount of history

00:13:20.990 --> 00:13:23.590
was impressive. Like I said, maybe a bit dense

00:13:23.590 --> 00:13:26.629
sometimes. Needed focus. Understandable. But

00:13:26.629 --> 00:13:29.730
the way it presented this nuanced view on Western

00:13:29.730 --> 00:13:33.200
dominance, its rise, its potential shift. really

00:13:33.200 --> 00:13:35.899
thought -provoking. So for that eye -opening

00:13:35.899 --> 00:13:38.840
journey, I'm giving it a solid 4 .5 out of 5

00:13:38.840 --> 00:13:41.720
stars. It definitely encourages a more critical,

00:13:41.919 --> 00:13:44.779
more inclusive look at global history and where

00:13:44.779 --> 00:13:46.639
we might be heading. Okay, so what's the big

00:13:46.639 --> 00:13:49.240
takeaway here? It's that the way the world works

00:13:49.240 --> 00:13:52.259
comes from contributions all over, not just one

00:13:52.259 --> 00:13:55.190
corner. A truly global story. That's all the

00:13:55.190 --> 00:13:57.870
time we have for today's Deep Dive. If this discussion

00:13:57.870 --> 00:13:59.350
got you interested and you want to check out

00:13:59.350 --> 00:14:01.850
Amita Vicharya's The Once and Future World Order

00:14:01.850 --> 00:14:04.429
yourself, there's an Amazon link down in the

00:14:04.429 --> 00:14:06.129
description. And please do like and subscribe

00:14:06.129 --> 00:14:08.309
to the show for more discussions like this. We

00:14:08.309 --> 00:14:11.149
hope this gave you maybe a new angle on global

00:14:11.149 --> 00:14:13.110
history and what's happening now. Thanks for

00:14:13.110 --> 00:14:15.669
joining us. Yeah, thanks for tuning in. We'd

00:14:15.669 --> 00:14:18.110
love to know what struck you the most. Was there

00:14:18.110 --> 00:14:20.990
a favorite moment or something that really surprised

00:14:20.990 --> 00:14:23.529
you from this whole discussion about world order

00:14:23.529 --> 00:14:26.250
history? let us know in the comments please do

00:14:26.250 --> 00:14:28.710
share your thoughts below and yeah like and share

00:14:28.710 --> 00:14:30.409
this deep dive so we can keep the conversation

00:14:30.409 --> 00:14:32.809
going definitely and maybe just think about this

00:14:32.809 --> 00:14:37.289
how might understanding all these diverse historical

00:14:37.289 --> 00:14:41.070
contributions change how we look at global challenges

00:14:41.070 --> 00:14:45.529
today and the world order yet to come a good

00:14:45.529 --> 00:14:48.090
thought to end on until our next deep dive