WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:01.919 Hey everyone, welcome to the show. Great to be 00:00:01.919 --> 00:00:04.620 here. Imagine generations of families placing 00:00:04.620 --> 00:00:08.119 just this unwavering trust in a company. Yeah. 00:00:08.240 --> 00:00:10.800 Only to discover that behind that comforting 00:00:10.800 --> 00:00:13.820 image lay, well, a really disturbing pattern 00:00:13.820 --> 00:00:19.140 of concealed risks and prioritized profits. That's 00:00:19.140 --> 00:00:21.379 quite a hook, isn't it? What's fascinating right 00:00:21.379 --> 00:00:24.199 from the start is that sheer betrayal of trust. 00:00:24.620 --> 00:00:27.440 For so many people, Johnson & Johnson wasn't 00:00:27.440 --> 00:00:30.000 just, you know, a corporation. It was sort of 00:00:30.000 --> 00:00:32.939 woven into the fabric of daily life. Like mother 00:00:32.939 --> 00:00:35.299 and medicine. Right. A symbol of reliability, 00:00:35.679 --> 00:00:39.079 baby care, medicine, everything. And that's why 00:00:39.079 --> 00:00:41.079 this book, No More Tears, The Dark Secrets of 00:00:41.079 --> 00:00:44.000 Johnson & Johnson by Gardner Harris. Well, it 00:00:44.000 --> 00:00:46.159 hits hard. It's investigative journalism, right? 00:00:46.219 --> 00:00:48.560 Really digging deep. Oh, absolutely. Impactful 00:00:48.560 --> 00:00:50.520 stuff. Very compelling read. Yeah, it really 00:00:50.520 --> 00:00:53.979 is. This book takes us on a deep dive into the 00:00:53.979 --> 00:00:57.299 history of this iconic company. And it reveals 00:00:57.299 --> 00:01:00.020 this long series of instances where decisions 00:01:00.020 --> 00:01:02.880 allegedly favored financial gain. Sometimes with 00:01:02.880 --> 00:01:05.060 really serious consequences for consumers, it 00:01:05.060 --> 00:01:07.579 seems. Yeah. We're talking controversies spanning 00:01:07.579 --> 00:01:11.500 decades and across like a whole range of their 00:01:11.500 --> 00:01:13.599 products. And the author meticulously pieces 00:01:13.599 --> 00:01:17.120 together this narrative. Yeah. Suggesting these 00:01:17.120 --> 00:01:19.379 weren't just isolated incidents. Right. Not just 00:01:19.379 --> 00:01:22.620 one offs. No. More indicative of a perhaps a 00:01:22.620 --> 00:01:25.280 broader corporate culture. It really makes you, 00:01:25.319 --> 00:01:28.040 you know, the listener question how these things 00:01:28.040 --> 00:01:30.500 can persist inside such a well, well regarded 00:01:30.500 --> 00:01:33.159 company. What I particularly appreciated about 00:01:33.159 --> 00:01:35.040 it, and no spoilers here, was just the sheer 00:01:35.040 --> 00:01:38.480 depth of the investigation. The research. Yeah. 00:01:38.560 --> 00:01:40.980 Harris clearly did an incredible amount of work 00:01:40.980 --> 00:01:44.219 uncovering internal documents, testimonies. It 00:01:44.219 --> 00:01:46.219 takes serious effort. It really does. And it's 00:01:46.219 --> 00:01:48.340 the way he connects these seemingly separate 00:01:48.340 --> 00:01:51.819 events across time that really stood out. It 00:01:51.819 --> 00:01:54.480 reveals this consistent pattern of behavior. 00:01:54.920 --> 00:01:57.060 And that kind of rigorous research is just... 00:01:57.260 --> 00:01:59.939 essential, isn't it, for understanding the complexities 00:01:59.939 --> 00:02:02.700 of a huge corporation with such a long history? 00:02:02.819 --> 00:02:04.900 Totally. It lets us get beyond the surface, you 00:02:04.900 --> 00:02:07.140 know. Look at the internal workings, the decisions 00:02:07.140 --> 00:02:09.419 that led to these controversies. On the other 00:02:09.419 --> 00:02:13.159 hand, though, what I found maybe disheartening, 00:02:13.199 --> 00:02:15.719 again, not getting into specifics yet, was just 00:02:15.719 --> 00:02:19.080 the sheer volume of instances where it really 00:02:19.080 --> 00:02:22.360 looked like financial interest just took precedence 00:02:22.360 --> 00:02:25.300 over, you know, ethical considerations. That's 00:02:25.300 --> 00:02:27.360 a heavy thing. It is. It's a lot to process. 00:02:27.460 --> 00:02:30.560 And it can leave you feeling a bit uneasy, frankly, 00:02:30.719 --> 00:02:33.479 about corporate responsibility. Understandable. 00:02:33.599 --> 00:02:36.259 Also, I was kind of left feeling that even after 00:02:36.259 --> 00:02:39.419 all that digging, some crucial questions about 00:02:39.419 --> 00:02:42.759 accountability, they still feel a bit elusive. 00:02:42.800 --> 00:02:44.939 That sense of ambiguity, yeah, around accountability. 00:02:45.020 --> 00:02:46.919 That's often a challenge in these kinds of deep 00:02:46.919 --> 00:02:49.729 dogs, isn't it? I guess so. I mean, large corporate 00:02:49.729 --> 00:02:51.949 structures can sometimes obscure responsibility, 00:02:52.349 --> 00:02:55.349 maybe even intentionally. Makes it hard to pinpoint 00:02:55.349 --> 00:02:58.250 who made the final call, even with documents. 00:02:58.610 --> 00:03:01.389 Right. So overall, I give No More Tears a strong 00:03:01.389 --> 00:03:03.750 four out of five stars. Solid rating. Yeah, I 00:03:03.750 --> 00:03:05.509 think it's a really significant piece of work 00:03:05.509 --> 00:03:07.250 for anyone who wants to understand, you know, 00:03:07.250 --> 00:03:09.370 the potential dark side of major corporations, 00:03:09.789 --> 00:03:11.810 especially in health care. And the importance 00:03:11.810 --> 00:03:14.949 of ethics in business. Definitely. A strong ethical 00:03:14.949 --> 00:03:18.150 compass. So as you get into the book, one of 00:03:18.150 --> 00:03:20.349 the early things that sort of sets the stage, 00:03:20.490 --> 00:03:24.650 this tension between profit and ethics. It involves 00:03:24.650 --> 00:03:26.750 the company's initial reluctance, apparently, 00:03:26.830 --> 00:03:30.770 to widely share patents for HIV AIDS meds. Oh, 00:03:30.770 --> 00:03:33.409 wow. Yeah. With the UN program aimed at saving 00:03:33.409 --> 00:03:36.169 lives in Africa. It raises that huge question, 00:03:36.229 --> 00:03:38.729 right? Global health crisis versus proprietary 00:03:38.729 --> 00:03:41.610 interests. How do you balance that? That's a 00:03:41.610 --> 00:03:43.509 tough one right off the bat. Okay, so let's talk 00:03:43.509 --> 00:03:46.009 about that brand image, J &J's image. Crucial. 00:03:46.090 --> 00:03:48.930 The book really highlights how vital that perception 00:03:48.930 --> 00:03:51.990 of trust was, especially with the baby products. 00:03:52.349 --> 00:03:55.370 The golden egg. Yes. You remember that bit? The 00:03:55.370 --> 00:03:58.189 2008 internal slide deck calling the Johnsons' 00:03:58.210 --> 00:04:00.370 names linked to the mother -infant bond, their 00:04:00.370 --> 00:04:02.810 golden egg. Creating this almost unbreakable 00:04:02.810 --> 00:04:05.509 emotional dawn. Exactly. And that emotional connection, 00:04:05.750 --> 00:04:08.090 it's incredibly powerful in marketing, isn't 00:04:08.090 --> 00:04:09.990 it? Totally bypasses rational thought sometimes. 00:04:10.530 --> 00:04:13.479 Right. it taps into fundamental feelings security 00:04:13.479 --> 00:04:18.180 well -being especially with babies this Emotional 00:04:18.180 --> 00:04:21.079 trust, as they called it, gave them a huge edge 00:04:21.079 --> 00:04:24.199 over competitors who maybe just relied on rational 00:04:24.199 --> 00:04:27.160 trust, like product effectiveness. And they deliberately 00:04:27.160 --> 00:04:29.920 built that image from way back. Pioneers, really. 00:04:30.079 --> 00:04:32.800 The book talks about them mass producing sterile 00:04:32.800 --> 00:04:35.279 surgical dressings, supplying the army and navy 00:04:35.279 --> 00:04:38.079 during the Spanish -American War. That Fred Kilmer 00:04:38.079 --> 00:04:40.620 quote. Oh, yeah. Offering millions of pounds 00:04:40.620 --> 00:04:43.800 of cotton, millions of yards of gauze, plasters 00:04:43.800 --> 00:04:46.100 enough to encircle the earth. To the nation. 00:04:46.339 --> 00:04:49.000 It really paints a picture, doesn't it? A company 00:04:49.000 --> 00:04:52.220 deeply tied to American values. Public service. 00:04:52.459 --> 00:04:55.699 It does. And that early history is so important 00:04:55.699 --> 00:04:57.819 for understanding why their positive reputation 00:04:57.819 --> 00:05:00.399 lasted so long. Right. Resilience. They positioned 00:05:00.399 --> 00:05:03.120 themselves as partners. Public health. national 00:05:03.120 --> 00:05:06.060 efforts, built up this deep well of goodwill 00:05:06.060 --> 00:05:09.000 they could draw on for decades. Even when, as 00:05:09.000 --> 00:05:11.500 the book suggests, internal practices maybe didn't 00:05:11.500 --> 00:05:14.120 always match that image. Exactly. Yeah. Which 00:05:14.120 --> 00:05:16.000 brings us to where the narrative takes that sharp 00:05:16.000 --> 00:05:18.540 turn. Yeah, the clash between the image and the 00:05:18.540 --> 00:05:21.199 internal stuff. And one of the first big areas, 00:05:21.500 --> 00:05:24.920 one of the most significant, centers around asbestos 00:05:24.920 --> 00:05:28.079 and their talc -based baby powder. Right. The 00:05:28.079 --> 00:05:30.459 talc issue. The timeline the book lays out around 00:05:30.459 --> 00:05:33.639 this alleged asbestos contamination is, well, 00:05:33.740 --> 00:05:36.319 it's deeply concerning. What does it say? It 00:05:36.319 --> 00:05:38.879 presents evidence suggesting that as early as 00:05:38.879 --> 00:05:43.160 the 1970s, internal documents, scientific findings, 00:05:43.339 --> 00:05:46.660 pointed to asbestos in the talc. Seventies. Wow. 00:05:47.019 --> 00:05:48.699 Yeah. And, you know, for everyone listening, 00:05:48.800 --> 00:05:51.480 it's crucial to understand asbestos is a known 00:05:51.480 --> 00:05:54.980 carcinogen. Absolutely. Deadly stuff. So finding 00:05:54.980 --> 00:05:57.639 it in baby powder, that raises huge health questions. 00:05:57.819 --> 00:06:00.759 The book even mentions a 71 study, Tenovus Cancer 00:06:00.759 --> 00:06:03.720 Research Institute, reportedly found talc particles 00:06:03.720 --> 00:06:06.899 deep inside ovarian tumors, hinting at a potential 00:06:06.899 --> 00:06:09.540 link between talc use and cancer. And it wasn't 00:06:09.540 --> 00:06:12.420 like this was totally unknown inside J &J itself. 00:06:12.740 --> 00:06:15.420 Apparently not. The book details internal memos, 00:06:15.420 --> 00:06:18.160 one from a company scientist in 71, raising the 00:06:18.160 --> 00:06:20.120 possibility of litigation. Litigation because 00:06:20.120 --> 00:06:22.660 of tech. Potential links between their powder 00:06:22.660 --> 00:06:25.560 formulas and pulmonary disease. So this wasn't 00:06:25.560 --> 00:06:27.740 some sudden crisis that blindsided them. No, 00:06:27.759 --> 00:06:30.139 there were internal warnings, discussions happening 00:06:30.139 --> 00:06:32.500 decades before it all blew up publicly. Exactly. 00:06:32.500 --> 00:06:34.579 And here's a crucial point the book highlights. 00:06:35.339 --> 00:06:38.259 J &J allegedly chose not to publicly disclose 00:06:38.259 --> 00:06:42.019 findings suggesting asbestos contamination. So 00:06:42.019 --> 00:06:45.720 they kept it quiet. Reportedly, yes. And even 00:06:45.720 --> 00:06:48.259 discouraged researchers from making these findings 00:06:48.259 --> 00:06:51.699 public. Wow. What that reveals, and this is a 00:06:51.699 --> 00:06:54.620 key insight for you listening, is how longstanding 00:06:54.620 --> 00:06:57.300 internal knowledge of a potential harm can maybe 00:06:57.300 --> 00:07:00.000 be suppressed, especially when a product is so 00:07:00.000 --> 00:07:03.589 tied to the brand, to profits. It suggests it 00:07:03.589 --> 00:07:05.829 wasn't just one bad decision, maybe. It suggests 00:07:05.829 --> 00:07:09.029 a potential systemic bias, perhaps, against acknowledging 00:07:09.029 --> 00:07:11.410 negative findings that could hurt a core product. 00:07:11.649 --> 00:07:13.649 The story gets even twistier with researchers 00:07:13.649 --> 00:07:16.810 like Dr. Arthur Langer. Right, the microscopist. 00:07:17.129 --> 00:07:20.250 Interesting story. Early in his career, he accidentally 00:07:20.250 --> 00:07:22.889 grew talc, trying to grow asbestos in the lab. 00:07:23.029 --> 00:07:25.089 Shows how similar they are, minerally speaking. 00:07:25.389 --> 00:07:29.680 Later, working with Dr. Irving Selikoff. A huge 00:07:29.680 --> 00:07:33.139 name in asbestos research. Right. Selikoff. Groundbreaking 00:07:33.139 --> 00:07:36.040 work. Their findings about potential asbestos 00:07:36.040 --> 00:07:39.560 in talc were reportedly met with resistance from 00:07:39.560 --> 00:07:42.620 J &J. Resistance? How? Well, Selikoff's work 00:07:42.620 --> 00:07:45.740 showed the dangers of even minimal asbestos exposure. 00:07:46.160 --> 00:07:48.459 He and Langer apparently share their concerns 00:07:48.459 --> 00:07:50.779 about talc with New York City's top environmental 00:07:50.779 --> 00:07:54.180 official back in 71. Leading to a public announcement. 00:07:54.500 --> 00:07:56.680 Yeah, about potential asbestos in cosmetic talc. 00:07:57.529 --> 00:07:59.490 So the alarm bells were ringing in parts of the 00:07:59.490 --> 00:08:01.930 scientific community, even if the companies seemed 00:08:01.930 --> 00:08:03.889 to be downplaying it. The book also goes into 00:08:03.889 --> 00:08:06.550 how J &J responded to these pressures, right? 00:08:06.670 --> 00:08:09.329 Like with the FDA. There's mention of them telling 00:08:09.329 --> 00:08:11.769 FDA officials their talc had only minor amounts 00:08:11.769 --> 00:08:14.589 of bestis, less than 1%. But wait, wasn't their 00:08:14.589 --> 00:08:16.850 public stance that it was completely asbestos 00:08:16.850 --> 00:08:20.009 -free? Exactly. That discrepancy. Internal communications 00:08:20.009 --> 00:08:23.100 versus public statements. It's a recurring theme, 00:08:23.259 --> 00:08:25.579 raising big questions about transparency. Yeah, 00:08:25.579 --> 00:08:27.959 it really is. That inconsistency is right at 00:08:27.959 --> 00:08:29.560 the heart of the ethical concerns, isn't it? 00:08:29.639 --> 00:08:33.139 Seems like it. I mean, maybe early on, some executives 00:08:33.139 --> 00:08:35.240 genuinely believed the levels were negligible. 00:08:35.360 --> 00:08:38.139 That's conceivable. Okay. But the continued denial, 00:08:38.259 --> 00:08:41.019 the alleged suppression of research as more evidence 00:08:41.019 --> 00:08:43.299 came out. Yeah. That gets harder and harder to 00:08:43.299 --> 00:08:45.659 square with that carefully built image of trustworthiness. 00:08:45.940 --> 00:08:48.139 And didn't someone eventually admit in court 00:08:48.139 --> 00:08:50.940 that earlier statements were false? Yes. The 00:08:50.940 --> 00:08:53.039 later acknowledgement and testimony that previous 00:08:53.039 --> 00:08:55.460 sworn statements about bogey powder never containing 00:08:55.460 --> 00:08:58.940 asbestos were false. That's a huge turning point 00:08:58.940 --> 00:09:01.080 in the story. It's quite striking, too, that 00:09:01.080 --> 00:09:03.360 even when other companies started switching to 00:09:03.360 --> 00:09:06.779 cornstarch baby powders, it's like. late 80s, 00:09:06.799 --> 00:09:10.360 J &J stuck with talc. By then, everyone knew 00:09:10.360 --> 00:09:13.700 asbestos was dangerous. The idea of it possibly 00:09:13.700 --> 00:09:16.200 being in baby powder just seems unthinkable. 00:09:16.340 --> 00:09:18.580 It does. Why did they persist? Did the book offer 00:09:18.580 --> 00:09:21.100 any reasons? It suggests there's no single simple 00:09:21.100 --> 00:09:25.600 answer, but it points to maybe deeply ingrained 00:09:25.600 --> 00:09:28.759 brand loyalty. The company's long -held belief 00:09:28.759 --> 00:09:32.309 that their talc product was just superior. It 00:09:32.309 --> 00:09:34.730 speaks to how hard it can be for huge corporations 00:09:34.730 --> 00:09:37.370 to change course, even when evidence is mounting. 00:09:37.669 --> 00:09:41.409 OK, so moving beyond baby powder, the book covers 00:09:41.409 --> 00:09:44.830 other major scandals, too, right? Oh, yeah. Risperdal, 00:09:44.929 --> 00:09:48.070 the antipsychotic drug. Medical devices like 00:09:48.070 --> 00:09:50.789 the ProLift vaginal mesh. Pinnacle hip implants. 00:09:51.169 --> 00:09:53.509 And does it suggest a similar pattern? It seems 00:09:53.509 --> 00:09:56.850 to. Aggressive marketing. Allegedly downplaying 00:09:56.850 --> 00:10:00.149 risks. A focus on profit. That narrative seems 00:10:00.149 --> 00:10:02.500 to repeat. Tell me about Risperdal. What were 00:10:02.500 --> 00:10:05.100 the issues there? The narrative around Risperdal 00:10:05.100 --> 00:10:08.519 is particularly troubling. The book presents 00:10:08.519 --> 00:10:11.960 allegations that J &J marketed it for uses not 00:10:11.960 --> 00:10:14.620 approved by the FDA. Off -label marketing. Exactly. 00:10:14.720 --> 00:10:16.559 Promoting a drug for something it wasn't officially 00:10:16.559 --> 00:10:19.580 approved for, which carries big risks because 00:10:19.580 --> 00:10:21.940 the safety and effectiveness for those uses haven't 00:10:21.940 --> 00:10:24.049 been fully checked out. And who are they marketing 00:10:24.049 --> 00:10:26.809 it to off -label? The book suggests this included 00:10:26.809 --> 00:10:29.309 marketing to elderly patients with dementia and 00:10:29.309 --> 00:10:31.450 also to children with behavioral issues. Oh, 00:10:31.450 --> 00:10:34.450 wow. Vulnerable groups. Yes. And that these efforts 00:10:34.450 --> 00:10:37.350 allegedly involved maybe inappropriate tactics 00:10:37.350 --> 00:10:40.570 like incentivizing doctors to prescribe it. And 00:10:40.570 --> 00:10:43.090 the consequences. Were there side effects? Yes. 00:10:43.529 --> 00:10:45.830 As detailed in the book, they were significant. 00:10:46.610 --> 00:10:48.730 Risperdal was shown to have serious side effects, 00:10:48.870 --> 00:10:51.649 especially in those groups. Like what? Reports 00:10:51.649 --> 00:10:54.789 of increased risk of strokes, even death in elderly 00:10:54.789 --> 00:10:57.669 patients with dementia, and issues like major 00:10:57.669 --> 00:11:02.889 weight gain and gynecomastia, breast development 00:11:02.889 --> 00:11:05.350 in young boys taking the drug. That's awful. 00:11:05.450 --> 00:11:07.690 And the prolift vaginal mesh, what was the story 00:11:07.690 --> 00:11:10.820 there? Another concerning picture. The book describes 00:11:10.820 --> 00:11:13.120 how the company apparently kept marketing the 00:11:13.120 --> 00:11:15.700 mesh despite early reports from surgeons about 00:11:15.700 --> 00:11:18.299 really serious complications. Like the mesh eroding. 00:11:18.480 --> 00:11:22.080 Exactly. Erosion into surrounding tissues. The 00:11:22.080 --> 00:11:25.179 fact that at one medical conference, a high percentage 00:11:25.179 --> 00:11:27.840 of surgeons reportedly raised their hands when 00:11:27.840 --> 00:11:29.840 asked if they'd had to surgically manage mesh 00:11:29.840 --> 00:11:32.179 erosion. Yeah. Gives you a sense of the potential 00:11:32.179 --> 00:11:34.179 scale of the problem. That's alarming. And the 00:11:34.179 --> 00:11:36.899 hip implants. Pinnacle. Pinnacle, metal on metal 00:11:36.899 --> 00:11:39.600 hips. Yeah. The book details how an engineer 00:11:39.600 --> 00:11:42.620 reportedly spotted a potential design flaw right 00:11:42.620 --> 00:11:44.860 before they submitted it to the FDA. But they 00:11:44.860 --> 00:11:48.200 launched it anyway. Allegedly, yes. The issue 00:11:48.200 --> 00:11:51.200 was friction between the metal parts could release 00:11:51.200 --> 00:11:54.039 metal debris into patients' bodies. Leading to? 00:11:54.179 --> 00:11:56.720 Potentially devastating health problems, tissue 00:11:56.720 --> 00:11:59.820 damage, needing revision surgeries. Yeah. Just 00:11:59.820 --> 00:12:02.539 awful outcomes for some patients. And was this 00:12:02.539 --> 00:12:04.820 type of metal -on -metal implant known to have 00:12:04.820 --> 00:12:07.769 problems before? That's what's striking. The 00:12:07.769 --> 00:12:10.269 book reports comparisons to earlier metal -on 00:12:10.269 --> 00:12:12.750 -metal devices that had already failed significantly 00:12:12.750 --> 00:12:15.750 in the market. Did the FDA raise flags? Apparently, 00:12:15.850 --> 00:12:19.070 yes. The FDA reportedly raised concerns about 00:12:19.070 --> 00:12:22.190 the pinnacle design, but J &J allegedly downplayed 00:12:22.190 --> 00:12:24.570 them and kept marketing it aggressively. It just 00:12:24.570 --> 00:12:26.669 it becomes almost overwhelming, doesn't it? The 00:12:26.669 --> 00:12:29.529 sheer number of different product lines and these 00:12:29.529 --> 00:12:32.389 repeated allegations prioritizing profits over 00:12:32.389 --> 00:12:34.789 consumer well -being. The book really paints 00:12:34.789 --> 00:12:36.750 a picture of a company that may be strayed pretty 00:12:36.750 --> 00:12:39.090 far from that original trusted image. And it's 00:12:39.090 --> 00:12:40.309 important for listeners to understand the book 00:12:40.309 --> 00:12:42.070 also touches on the complexities of the whole 00:12:42.070 --> 00:12:44.830 regulatory landscape. The FDA's role. Yeah, the 00:12:44.830 --> 00:12:47.610 relationship between the FDA and these industries 00:12:47.610 --> 00:12:50.970 is multifaceted. The book raises questions about 00:12:50.970 --> 00:12:54.629 how effective oversight really is or was in certain 00:12:54.629 --> 00:12:56.769 cases. Didn't the book also mention their role 00:12:56.769 --> 00:12:59.769 in the opioid crisis? Briefly, yes. Through a 00:12:59.769 --> 00:13:02.129 subsidiary that became a major supplier of opioid 00:13:02.129 --> 00:13:04.929 ingredients. So not just Purdue Pharma. Right. 00:13:05.240 --> 00:13:07.919 While Purdue and OxyContin get most of the attention, 00:13:08.220 --> 00:13:10.659 the book points out J &J's role in supplying 00:13:10.659 --> 00:13:13.820 raw materials and allegedly mirroring some of 00:13:13.820 --> 00:13:16.299 Purdue's aggressive marketing tactics. It just 00:13:16.299 --> 00:13:18.440 shows how interconnected it all is. Absolutely. 00:13:18.559 --> 00:13:20.940 The opioid crisis wasn't just one company. It 00:13:20.940 --> 00:13:23.539 was a whole network. Manufacturers, distributors. 00:13:23.720 --> 00:13:26.919 J &J's position as a key supplier put them right 00:13:26.919 --> 00:13:29.299 in that ecosystem. Even their attempt at a COVID 00:13:29.299 --> 00:13:31.519 vaccine, which seemed like a chance to maybe 00:13:31.519 --> 00:13:34.610 rebuild some trust. Yeah. That was hit by manufacturing 00:13:34.610 --> 00:13:37.070 problems and safety concerns, too, as the book 00:13:37.070 --> 00:13:39.129 details. It almost feels like a continuation 00:13:39.129 --> 00:13:42.370 of past issues with ensuring safety and reliability. 00:13:42.750 --> 00:13:45.330 That's a really sobering point, isn't it? Even 00:13:45.330 --> 00:13:47.289 in a global health crisis where you'd think a 00:13:47.289 --> 00:13:49.909 trusted health care company could shine, the 00:13:49.909 --> 00:13:52.830 book suggests those past patterns and challenges 00:13:52.830 --> 00:13:55.490 might have still been influential. It truly makes 00:13:55.490 --> 00:13:57.490 you reconsider that initial image, doesn't it? 00:13:57.549 --> 00:14:00.070 J &J as this universally benevolent corporation. 00:14:00.590 --> 00:14:02.750 Completely. The book presents a really compelling 00:14:02.750 --> 00:14:06.409 case for a much more complex and, yeah, sometimes 00:14:06.409 --> 00:14:10.440 troubling reality where. The pursuit of profit 00:14:10.440 --> 00:14:13.019 allegedly came at a significant cost. Public 00:14:13.019 --> 00:14:16.360 health, consumer trust. And that is the key takeaway, 00:14:16.500 --> 00:14:19.000 I think, for you, the listener. This deep dive 00:14:19.000 --> 00:14:21.960 into J &J's history, as laid out in No More Tears, 00:14:22.039 --> 00:14:24.860 it just raises fundamental questions. About corporate 00:14:24.860 --> 00:14:27.080 responsibility. Yeah, and about regulatory oversight. 00:14:27.320 --> 00:14:29.720 And just the very nature of the trust we place 00:14:29.720 --> 00:14:32.539 in these huge corporations that directly impact 00:14:32.539 --> 00:14:35.570 our health. our well -being. Absolutely critical 00:14:35.570 --> 00:14:39.370 question. So if this exploration into the dark 00:14:39.370 --> 00:14:41.690 secrets of Johnson & Johnson has intrigued you. 00:14:41.769 --> 00:14:44.610 Which it probably has. Yeah. Please be sure to 00:14:44.610 --> 00:14:46.970 like and subscribe. You can find a link to buy 00:14:46.970 --> 00:14:49.789 No More Tears, The Dark Secrets of Johnson & 00:14:49.789 --> 00:14:52.710 Johnson on Amazon right in the description below. 00:14:52.990 --> 00:14:55.350 And we really appreciate you joining us for this 00:14:55.350 --> 00:14:59.059 important and... frankly, thought -provoking 00:14:59.059 --> 00:15:00.740 discussion. We'd love to hear your thoughts, 00:15:00.779 --> 00:15:04.580 too. What was the most surprising or maybe impactful 00:15:04.580 --> 00:15:06.860 revelation for you in this deep dive? Yeah, let 00:15:06.860 --> 00:15:08.659 us know. Share your insights in the comments 00:15:08.659 --> 00:15:11.379 below. And please, feel free to share this with 00:15:11.379 --> 00:15:13.200 anyone who you think would find it valuable. 00:15:13.500 --> 00:15:16.399 Let's keep this crucial conversation going. Definitely. 00:15:16.440 --> 00:15:18.620 Your comments, your shares, they really help 00:15:18.620 --> 00:15:20.919 broaden the discussion and bring these important 00:15:20.919 --> 00:15:23.419 issues to more people. So here's a final thought. 00:15:23.639 --> 00:15:26.210 Knowing what we've uncovered today. What does 00:15:26.210 --> 00:15:28.769 it make you reconsider about the trust we place 00:15:28.769 --> 00:15:31.830 in major corporations, particularly those that 00:15:31.830 --> 00:15:34.129 have such a direct impact on our health? Something 00:15:34.129 --> 00:15:36.149 to chew on. It's definitely something to keep 00:15:36.149 --> 00:15:37.970 in mind. Thanks for listening, everyone.