WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:01.439 Hey, everyone. Welcome to the show. Great to 00:00:01.439 --> 00:00:05.000 be here. Imagine the terror of a knock on the 00:00:05.000 --> 00:00:07.960 door, knowing it could mean losing absolutely 00:00:07.960 --> 00:00:10.240 everything you own. Everything. Just because 00:00:10.240 --> 00:00:13.179 you fell maybe a little behind on rent. For so 00:00:13.179 --> 00:00:15.439 many families in America, this isn't hypothetical. 00:00:15.880 --> 00:00:20.120 It's real. It's a monthly fear. It really is. 00:00:20.519 --> 00:00:23.460 And today's deep dive. It actually comes as a 00:00:23.460 --> 00:00:26.179 special request from our friend Celestial Circle 00:00:26.179 --> 00:00:29.760 Dance over on YouTube. Ah, fantastic. Shout out 00:00:29.760 --> 00:00:32.219 to Celestial Circle Dance. Yeah. And this one, 00:00:32.219 --> 00:00:36.299 it tackles a really powerful, often kind of unseen 00:00:36.299 --> 00:00:39.380 issue in our society. It definitely does. We're 00:00:39.380 --> 00:00:41.859 stepping into, well, the world of social science, 00:00:41.880 --> 00:00:44.119 I guess, and investigative reporting. Definitely 00:00:44.119 --> 00:00:46.619 investigative reporting. Yeah. With Matthew Desmond's 00:00:46.619 --> 00:00:50.100 really groundbreaking work, Evicted. Poverty 00:00:50.100 --> 00:00:52.460 and Profit in the American City. A truly eye 00:00:52.460 --> 00:00:55.159 -opening book. Absolutely. So if this kind of 00:00:55.159 --> 00:00:57.500 in -depth exploration, the kind that really makes 00:00:57.500 --> 00:00:59.159 you think about the world, if that sparks your 00:00:59.159 --> 00:01:01.219 curiosity, please do hit that like button. And 00:01:01.219 --> 00:01:03.159 subscribe. It helps us keep doing these deep 00:01:03.159 --> 00:01:07.420 dives. It really does. Now, Evicted. We've put 00:01:07.420 --> 00:01:09.299 a link in the description below. It isn't just 00:01:09.299 --> 00:01:12.359 data or statistics. No, not at all. It's incredibly 00:01:12.359 --> 00:01:14.599 immersive. It follows the lives of eight different 00:01:14.599 --> 00:01:17.219 families in Milwaukee. Right. Families grappling 00:01:17.219 --> 00:01:19.959 with eviction. And it also looks at two landlords 00:01:19.959 --> 00:01:23.459 who are navigating the complexities of renting 00:01:23.459 --> 00:01:26.480 to the poor. It's raw, very unflinching. It really 00:01:26.480 --> 00:01:29.120 shows how eviction isn't just like something 00:01:29.120 --> 00:01:31.799 that happens because you're poor. Exactly. It 00:01:31.799 --> 00:01:34.780 argues eviction is a major driver of poverty. 00:01:35.390 --> 00:01:38.209 Not just a consequence. That's the key shift 00:01:38.209 --> 00:01:41.390 in perspective. Yeah. We're going to unpack some 00:01:41.390 --> 00:01:43.810 of the really surprising, sometimes deeply moving 00:01:43.810 --> 00:01:45.730 stories from the book. And show those connections, 00:01:45.870 --> 00:01:48.349 right, between housing, poverty, opportunity, 00:01:48.549 --> 00:01:51.329 things maybe people haven't quite connected in 00:01:51.329 --> 00:01:54.069 the same way before. That's the goal. Our mission 00:01:54.069 --> 00:01:56.469 today, really, is to pull out the crucial insights 00:01:56.469 --> 00:01:59.090 from Evicted. Insights that might just reshape 00:01:59.090 --> 00:02:01.409 how you understand poverty in America. Moving 00:02:01.409 --> 00:02:03.629 beyond maybe the common assumptions. Exactly. 00:02:04.079 --> 00:02:06.739 And really revealing the powerful role housing 00:02:06.739 --> 00:02:08.800 plays. Yeah. Especially for the most vulnerable 00:02:08.800 --> 00:02:12.500 people. Yeah. What's so compelling about Evicted 00:02:12.500 --> 00:02:14.580 right from the start is how it just throws you 00:02:14.580 --> 00:02:16.680 into the daily struggle. Instantly. You take 00:02:16.680 --> 00:02:19.120 Arlene, for instance. She's a mom, low -income 00:02:19.120 --> 00:02:21.280 neighborhood in Milwaukee. Her total welfare 00:02:21.280 --> 00:02:25.599 income, $628 a month. Okay. Now, the cheapest 00:02:25.599 --> 00:02:27.580 apartment she could find, a two -bedroom that 00:02:27.580 --> 00:02:31.719 would actually take her and her kids. $550 a 00:02:31.719 --> 00:02:37.360 month. Wow. So, wait. $550 from $628. That leaves... 00:02:37.360 --> 00:02:41.379 $78. $78. For everything else. For everything 00:02:41.379 --> 00:02:44.680 else. Food, clothes, bus fare, diapers, and, 00:02:44.719 --> 00:02:47.919 critically, utilities. Heat, electricity. That's 00:02:47.919 --> 00:02:49.939 not a margin. That's a cliff edge. It just shows 00:02:49.939 --> 00:02:52.520 how incredibly thin things are. Razor thin. And 00:02:52.520 --> 00:02:54.500 it's not just the rent figure itself, as the 00:02:54.500 --> 00:02:55.900 book points out. Right. You mentioned utilities. 00:02:55.919 --> 00:02:58.199 Those costs have gone up like crazy too, haven't 00:02:58.199 --> 00:03:00.520 they? Dramatically. Since like the year 2000, 00:03:00.740 --> 00:03:04.360 fuel and utility costs jumped over 50%. 50%. 00:03:04.360 --> 00:03:07.120 So you can just picture Arlene constantly trying 00:03:07.120 --> 00:03:10.580 to juggle, pay the rent, or keep the lights on. 00:03:10.659 --> 00:03:12.620 Especially with those Milwaukee winters coming. 00:03:12.719 --> 00:03:14.800 It's this constant high stress balancing act. 00:03:15.099 --> 00:03:17.139 Yeah. A tightrope walk where one slip means, 00:03:17.379 --> 00:03:22.210 well. Potentially disaster. Exactly. And it forces 00:03:22.210 --> 00:03:25.569 these impossible choices. Pay rent, risk getting 00:03:25.569 --> 00:03:28.610 the heat shut off, or pay the utility bill and 00:03:28.610 --> 00:03:30.909 fall behind on rent, getting closer to eviction. 00:03:31.030 --> 00:03:33.189 There's no winning move there. None. The book 00:03:33.189 --> 00:03:35.090 even talks about people doing desperate things 00:03:35.090 --> 00:03:37.770 just to get basic utilities back on. Which really 00:03:37.770 --> 00:03:39.810 highlights how fundamental shelter and basic 00:03:39.810 --> 00:03:42.409 services are. You can't have stability without 00:03:42.409 --> 00:03:44.669 them. And how tied they are to this whole issue 00:03:44.669 --> 00:03:47.389 of poverty. Which leads us to Desmond's central 00:03:47.389 --> 00:03:49.770 argument, doesn't it? It really does. We talk 00:03:49.770 --> 00:03:51.830 a lot about poverty in terms of jobs, right? 00:03:52.009 --> 00:03:55.090 Or welfare programs, maybe incarceration rates. 00:03:55.129 --> 00:03:56.870 All important factors, absolutely. For sure. 00:03:57.110 --> 00:03:59.849 But Desmond says, hang on, we've kind of overlooked 00:03:59.849 --> 00:04:03.189 something huge and foundational. Housing. He 00:04:03.189 --> 00:04:05.949 argues quite strongly that we haven't really 00:04:05.949 --> 00:04:08.969 grasped how housing instability, especially eviction, 00:04:09.129 --> 00:04:12.310 actively creates poverty. It's not just a symptom. 00:04:12.449 --> 00:04:14.189 That's such a crucial distinction he makes, yeah. 00:04:14.560 --> 00:04:16.639 He's not saying jobs don't matter. Not at all. 00:04:16.699 --> 00:04:19.379 But he's asking us to reexamine where we put 00:04:19.379 --> 00:04:22.060 our focus. He points out, look, not everyone 00:04:22.060 --> 00:04:24.600 in poor communities deals with the justice system 00:04:24.600 --> 00:04:28.000 or even social services directly. But pretty 00:04:28.000 --> 00:04:32.000 much all of them have a landlord. That relationship, 00:04:32.180 --> 00:04:35.000 tenant and landlord, that's universal in that 00:04:35.000 --> 00:04:37.459 context. Exactly. And he uses that relationship 00:04:37.459 --> 00:04:40.980 as a critical lens, a way to understand how poverty 00:04:40.980 --> 00:04:44.139 gets sustained, how it's perpetuated day to day. 00:04:44.399 --> 00:04:46.379 And Evicted just brings that to life with these 00:04:46.379 --> 00:04:49.199 incredibly personal stories. You see families 00:04:49.199 --> 00:04:52.839 like Doreen's just constantly moving, forced 00:04:52.839 --> 00:04:55.100 into worse and worse places because they can't 00:04:55.100 --> 00:04:57.329 keep up with rent. And the instability, it just 00:04:57.329 --> 00:04:59.110 ripples through everything, doesn't it? Everything. 00:04:59.250 --> 00:05:01.689 Kid schooling gets messed up. Holding down a 00:05:01.689 --> 00:05:04.250 job becomes nearly impossible. Health suffers, 00:05:04.410 --> 00:05:06.870 mental and physical. It's a cascade effect. It 00:05:06.870 --> 00:05:08.709 really is. And then there's the eviction record 00:05:08.709 --> 00:05:11.350 itself. Oh, yeah. That's a huge piece of it. 00:05:11.430 --> 00:05:13.889 The book shows how that record can be like a 00:05:13.889 --> 00:05:17.470 brand. Oh, so? Well, landlords use these databases, 00:05:17.730 --> 00:05:21.509 right, to screen tenants. And just having an 00:05:21.509 --> 00:05:23.730 eviction filed against you, even if you weren't 00:05:23.730 --> 00:05:25.629 ultimately kicked out. Even just the filing. 00:05:25.829 --> 00:05:28.290 Often, yes. It makes it incredibly difficult 00:05:28.290 --> 00:05:31.730 to find decent housing later. Karen, one of the 00:05:31.730 --> 00:05:33.709 landlords in the book, she puts it bluntly. What 00:05:33.709 --> 00:05:36.269 does she say? Something like, if they have an 00:05:36.269 --> 00:05:38.350 eviction, what makes you think they're going 00:05:38.350 --> 00:05:41.889 to pay you? Wow. So it creates this cycle. You 00:05:41.889 --> 00:05:45.189 get evicted, maybe unfairly, maybe not. And suddenly 00:05:45.189 --> 00:05:47.720 you're locked out of the market. Or pushed into 00:05:47.720 --> 00:05:49.899 even worse options. It makes it so much harder 00:05:49.899 --> 00:05:52.160 to get back on your feet. So the system meant 00:05:52.160 --> 00:05:55.420 to resolve disputes actually ends up trapping 00:05:55.420 --> 00:05:58.060 people. That's a key insight, definitely. It 00:05:58.060 --> 00:06:00.579 can inadvertently perpetuate instability. It 00:06:00.579 --> 00:06:02.860 feels almost designed to keep people down sometimes. 00:06:03.160 --> 00:06:05.560 And to be fair, Desmond shows the landlord's 00:06:05.560 --> 00:06:08.040 side too, right? Shereen and Tobin. Yes, he does. 00:06:08.459 --> 00:06:10.839 He's careful to show their perspective. They're 00:06:10.839 --> 00:06:13.639 operating in the same tough market, trying to 00:06:13.639 --> 00:06:16.269 make a living. But their decisions... even if 00:06:16.269 --> 00:06:18.110 they make business sense to them. Have these 00:06:18.110 --> 00:06:21.069 massive, life -altering consequences for their 00:06:21.069 --> 00:06:23.769 tenants. Yeah. What's really insightful is how 00:06:23.769 --> 00:06:26.730 he portrays that whole landlord -tenant dynamic. 00:06:26.829 --> 00:06:29.089 Yeah. It's often so fraught. You see Sharina, 00:06:29.089 --> 00:06:31.870 for example. She's dealing with real issues. 00:06:32.209 --> 00:06:35.589 Late rent, property damage, tenants leaving unexpectedly. 00:06:35.730 --> 00:06:37.970 Sure, those are real business challenges. Absolutely. 00:06:38.250 --> 00:06:40.410 And sometimes she tries to help, shows empathy. 00:06:40.649 --> 00:06:42.790 But at the end of the day, the economic pressure, 00:06:42.910 --> 00:06:45.860 the legal system... It often pushes her towards 00:06:45.860 --> 00:06:48.120 eviction. He also points out the tight margins 00:06:48.120 --> 00:06:50.459 they operate on sometimes in these low income 00:06:50.459 --> 00:06:53.160 areas. Yeah. A few missed payments can hurt the 00:06:53.160 --> 00:06:55.620 landlord's bottom line significantly, too. It's 00:06:55.620 --> 00:06:58.240 tough on both sides in different ways. And then 00:06:58.240 --> 00:07:00.339 you have Tobin, the mobile home park owner. He 00:07:00.339 --> 00:07:04.420 seems different. Much more direct, aggressive 00:07:04.420 --> 00:07:07.139 even sometimes in his rent collection methods. 00:07:07.480 --> 00:07:09.500 Yeah. The book describes him relentlessly chasing 00:07:09.500 --> 00:07:12.879 tenants for rent, even calling their jobs. It 00:07:12.879 --> 00:07:15.240 paints a really stark picture of the power imbalance. 00:07:15.699 --> 00:07:19.079 Totally unequal. The tenants are often just desperate. 00:07:19.160 --> 00:07:22.600 Very few options. Little power when facing eviction 00:07:22.600 --> 00:07:25.740 or bad living conditions. And the legal system. 00:07:26.439 --> 00:07:29.019 Desmond's portrayal of eviction court is just. 00:07:30.200 --> 00:07:32.740 Sobering. Oh, so? Well, he describes these scenes. 00:07:33.339 --> 00:07:36.000 Landlords usually have lawyers looking professional. 00:07:36.259 --> 00:07:38.779 Okay. Tenants often show up alone, confused, 00:07:39.000 --> 00:07:42.079 overwhelmed by the legal jargon, the process. 00:07:42.500 --> 00:07:44.879 Right. And the court often just focuses on one 00:07:44.879 --> 00:07:48.779 thing. Was the rent paid? Yes or no? Not why 00:07:48.779 --> 00:07:51.000 it wasn't paid or the conditions they were living 00:07:51.000 --> 00:07:54.029 in. Often no. There's this moment in the book 00:07:54.029 --> 00:07:56.050 a court commissioner says to a tenant trying 00:07:56.050 --> 00:07:58.509 to explain she had no electricity for a month. 00:07:58.730 --> 00:08:01.009 What does he say? He basically dismisses it. 00:08:01.089 --> 00:08:03.290 Yeah. That isn't necessarily a fact we need to 00:08:03.290 --> 00:08:06.389 work out today. Oof. Chilling. That just sums 00:08:06.389 --> 00:08:08.230 it up, doesn't it? Yeah. The system focusing 00:08:08.230 --> 00:08:10.529 on the transaction, ignoring the human suffering. 00:08:10.709 --> 00:08:12.990 Exactly. It shows how the system can be blind 00:08:12.990 --> 00:08:15.370 to the reality on the ground. And the consequences 00:08:15.370 --> 00:08:18.350 of that eviction when it happens. Mm -hmm. The 00:08:18.350 --> 00:08:20.490 book details them meticulously. They're catastrophic. 00:08:20.910 --> 00:08:22.449 Absolutely. You don't just lose your home. You 00:08:22.449 --> 00:08:24.709 often lose your possession. Your job because 00:08:24.709 --> 00:08:27.269 of the disruption. Your community ties, your 00:08:27.269 --> 00:08:29.389 kids' school stability. Everything gets thrown 00:08:29.389 --> 00:08:31.709 into chaos. And it leads to more hardship, higher 00:08:31.709 --> 00:08:34.429 rates of homelessness, terrible impacts on health. 00:08:34.570 --> 00:08:36.830 Physical and mental health. Yeah. It's a downward 00:08:36.830 --> 00:08:40.169 spiral. So connecting this back to the bigger 00:08:40.169 --> 00:08:42.509 picture, Desmond did a lot of research beyond 00:08:42.509 --> 00:08:44.990 these stories, right? The Milwaukee Area Renter 00:08:44.990 --> 00:08:47.980 Study. He did. And his findings were stark. Eviction 00:08:47.980 --> 00:08:50.340 rates in Milwaukee were incredibly high. And 00:08:50.340 --> 00:08:53.139 was Milwaukee unique? No, that's the point. He 00:08:53.139 --> 00:08:55.139 found the rates were comparable to other big 00:08:55.139 --> 00:08:57.000 cities. This isn't just a Milwaukee problem. 00:08:57.179 --> 00:08:59.120 It's a national crisis. Pretty much. And the 00:08:59.120 --> 00:09:02.340 consequences he documents, the instability, the 00:09:02.340 --> 00:09:04.639 deprivation, they fuel that cycle of poverty. 00:09:04.759 --> 00:09:06.940 They make it incredibly hard for families to 00:09:06.940 --> 00:09:10.159 ever get ahead. It paints a really, really sobering 00:09:10.159 --> 00:09:13.210 picture. Evicted forces you to see that having 00:09:13.210 --> 00:09:15.850 a stable home isn't just about personal responsibility. 00:09:16.230 --> 00:09:19.230 No, it's deeply tangled up with systemic issues, 00:09:19.509 --> 00:09:22.250 policy failures. Like the lack of affordable 00:09:22.250 --> 00:09:26.350 housing? Definitely. And inadequate legal protections 00:09:26.350 --> 00:09:29.110 for tenants, the way the whole system is set 00:09:29.110 --> 00:09:31.889 up. It all plays a part in this crisis. Which 00:09:31.889 --> 00:09:33.429 brings up that fundamental question you mentioned 00:09:33.429 --> 00:09:35.570 earlier. Yeah, what does it mean to live in a 00:09:35.570 --> 00:09:39.809 society that promises opportunity, well -being? 00:09:40.549 --> 00:09:43.350 For everyone. Desmond connected right back to 00:09:43.350 --> 00:09:44.850 the Declaration of Independence, doesn't he? 00:09:45.370 --> 00:09:47.490 Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. 00:09:47.809 --> 00:09:50.750 He does. He argues that a stable home is essential 00:09:50.750 --> 00:09:53.309 for all of those things. How can you pursue happiness 00:09:53.309 --> 00:09:55.750 if you're constantly worried about losing your 00:09:55.750 --> 00:09:58.269 home? Exactly. Without that foundation, achieving 00:09:58.269 --> 00:10:02.529 security, opportunity, well -being, it becomes 00:10:02.529 --> 00:10:05.070 almost impossible. Okay, so if we boil it down, 00:10:05.250 --> 00:10:07.309 what are the main takeaways here? What does Desmond 00:10:07.309 --> 00:10:09.690 want us to understand? I think the biggest thing 00:10:09.690 --> 00:10:13.470 is if we're serious about tackling poverty, we 00:10:13.470 --> 00:10:16.230 have to rethink housing fundamentally. It can't 00:10:16.230 --> 00:10:18.669 just be about income or jobs. We need to ensure 00:10:18.669 --> 00:10:21.870 people have safe, stable, genuinely affordable 00:10:21.870 --> 00:10:24.529 places to live. Right. And the book does touch 00:10:24.529 --> 00:10:27.129 on potential solutions, doesn't it? Policy ideas. 00:10:27.409 --> 00:10:29.269 Yeah, like expanding housing voucher programs, 00:10:29.470 --> 00:10:32.009 making them work better. He talks about making 00:10:32.009 --> 00:10:34.309 them available to everyone who qualifies, which 00:10:34.309 --> 00:10:36.649 isn't the case now, and preventing landlords 00:10:36.649 --> 00:10:38.649 from just jacking up rents because someone has 00:10:38.649 --> 00:10:42.490 a voucher. That makes sense. And also providing 00:10:42.490 --> 00:10:45.470 legal help for tenants in housing court. Yeah, 00:10:45.570 --> 00:10:47.929 a universal right to counsel like you have in 00:10:47.929 --> 00:10:50.250 criminal cases, because right now that power 00:10:50.250 --> 00:10:53.169 imbalance in court is huge. Landlords have lawyers. 00:10:53.409 --> 00:10:56.399 Tenants usually don't. Exactly. And he points 00:10:56.399 --> 00:10:58.559 out other developed countries often have stronger 00:10:58.559 --> 00:11:01.120 housing policies. These aren't like radical, 00:11:01.240 --> 00:11:03.440 untested ideas. They're things that could actually 00:11:03.440 --> 00:11:06.159 make a difference. Potentially, yes. So ultimately, 00:11:06.419 --> 00:11:09.340 evicted just leaves you with this really profound, 00:11:09.679 --> 00:11:12.500 maybe uncomfortable understanding. Uncomfortable 00:11:12.500 --> 00:11:14.919 is a good word for it. Just how absolutely central 00:11:14.919 --> 00:11:18.259 housing is and how eviction acts like this major 00:11:18.259 --> 00:11:20.870 barrier keeping people trapped. It really pushes 00:11:20.870 --> 00:11:23.350 you past simplistic ideas about, you know, people 00:11:23.350 --> 00:11:25.570 just needing to try harder. Yeah, it forces you 00:11:25.570 --> 00:11:27.590 to look at the bigger structures, the policies, 00:11:27.690 --> 00:11:30.429 the societal choices that let this happen. And 00:11:30.429 --> 00:11:32.789 that brings us to the ethical side, right? If 00:11:32.789 --> 00:11:35.950 housing is so basic, so essential. What's our 00:11:35.950 --> 00:11:38.649 responsibility as a society? Do we have a moral 00:11:38.649 --> 00:11:41.090 obligation to make sure everyone has a roof over 00:11:41.090 --> 00:11:42.830 their head? The stories in the book, they're 00:11:42.830 --> 00:11:46.649 so human, so heartbreaking. They really force 00:11:46.649 --> 00:11:49.179 you to wrestle with that. It's hard not to. Seeing 00:11:49.179 --> 00:11:52.179 families just constantly churn through this cycle 00:11:52.179 --> 00:11:56.019 of displacement and hardship. Yeah. So let's 00:11:56.019 --> 00:11:58.080 leave our listeners with this thought. Consider 00:11:58.080 --> 00:12:02.500 this. If a stable home is so fundamental to life, 00:12:02.639 --> 00:12:05.080 liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, like the 00:12:05.080 --> 00:12:07.980 founders declared, what does it say about our 00:12:07.980 --> 00:12:11.620 society today when eviction is just routine? 00:12:12.589 --> 00:12:15.389 When it happens so often, casting families onto 00:12:15.389 --> 00:12:17.570 this path of deeper hardship. That's a powerful 00:12:17.570 --> 00:12:20.009 question. The stories, the insights from Evicted, 00:12:20.049 --> 00:12:21.669 they really challenge us to think hard about 00:12:21.669 --> 00:12:23.350 that, what it means for our communities. And 00:12:23.350 --> 00:12:26.049 maybe ask, what responsibilities do we have individually, 00:12:26.409 --> 00:12:28.590 collectively, to actually address this systemic 00:12:28.590 --> 00:12:30.230 issue? Something to definitely think about.