WEBVTT

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And I think everyone, everyone should have the

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same drive. If you're able to tell a story and

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you know these stories of the faith, it is your

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duty to tell that story. Because if you didn't,

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then these stories might die. And that's where

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you have things like people specifically, like

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Abba Pavnotius was led by the Spirit specifically

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to go in the desert, take down and write down

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the stories of the saints. And that's how we

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know the story of Abba Nofer. the anchorite so

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it's like if these people who are writers like

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like let's not view them in that shell of a saint

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who are writers painters artists the ones who

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painted the walls and frescoes in the monasteries

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if these people chose not to tell stories we

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would have had a huge huge gaps in our in our

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in our tradition huge gaps in in the beautiful

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tapestry that is Coptic orthodoxy. And so that's

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the way that I view it. I don't so much view

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it as, oh, there's social media. Let's do something

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cool there. Let's have an account. Let's run

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it. Let's make pictures. I just view it as the

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church itself and our faith is story. And if

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I can, and I love this stuff and I enjoy it,

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that's my hobby. I will tell these stories. Hello,

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everyone. This is Father Paul, and I hope you're

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having a good day. You're listening to Coptic

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Conversation. All right, so today I have the

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pleasure of speaking with Michael Elgamon. And

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if you don't know this young man, he is a Coptic

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Orthodox writer and artist. And before I tell

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you his big project, let me tell you that he

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published picture books for children, graphic

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novels for all ages. And one of his most recent

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works is Anastasis and The Life of St. John the

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Short. If you haven't guessed by now, yes, it's

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Michael from Creative Orthodox. And under Creative

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Orthodox, he published Anastasis and The Life

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of St. John the Short and other visual works

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such as Ascent, a documentary on St. Anthony

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the Great. He lives in Kitchener, Ontario, Canada

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with his wife, Marjorie, and two children. So

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thank you for being here, Michael. I'm looking

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forward to our conversation. And like digital

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media meets the Orthodox faith and, you know,

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bringing them both together. How did all this

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come about? First of all, thank you so much,

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Abuna, for having me. It is a pleasure. And I

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love that we can have these conversations and

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have these. projects so near to home. It was

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an hour drive for me. So it's so encouraging

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that so much is happening in this area, art and

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media wise. And as far as when Creative Orthodox

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and how Creative Orthodox started, it was actually

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from a negative experience. So it was I was let

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go out of my first job out of university. So

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I have a marketing background. So it was an entry

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level marketing position. And I was let go from

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that first role and it took me a very long time

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to find a job around a year and a half and so

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unemployment it's it's a tougher cross to bear

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mentally more so where the day -to -day starts

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blending you you stop having having reason to

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to wake up early you stop having reasons to have

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discipline right and things start things start

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meshing together and you can very easily um lose

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lose your way and lose focus and so at the time

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i wanted something to keep me disciplined to

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give me a schedule to have to have a job other

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than applying for jobs and so i wanted to um

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i i I've been drawing all my life. So I said,

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okay, I'll just, and I love comics. So I said,

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I'll start drawing comics. And I actually wanted

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to start with the, one of my favorite saints

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and Anthony the Great. And then I got to drawing

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and one of my closest friends, Anthony Paul,

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I would take to him the drawing and I'd be like,

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here, here are some sketches. He's like, no.

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No, that's not Saint Anthony. It doesn't look

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like him. And so I realized that, okay, maybe

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not my first project out the gate, I'll be able

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to get this right. And I can't get it right unless

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Abuna Anthony felt like it's close to the saint.

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um and so i was like okay let's do the second

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the the let's do another one of the great saints

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and i found that saint john the short had um

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an awesome thorough translation of the manuscript

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we have we have his entire life translated and

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so there's a lot A lot to work with. A lot to

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work with, exactly. And so I started doing that.

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And then over six years, I was drawing day in,

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day out. Obviously found a job a year and a half

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in, but continued doing so. And while I was working

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on the book, I started illustrating saints on

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the Orthodox calendar year. So whenever a feast

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day comes, I would illustrate that saint. You

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would release that. Exactly. And so over the

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years, it just built up from there and then got

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into Anastasis. And it sort of just became a

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way, a creative outlet for me. And to a lesser

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extent, for my personal service. But it's just

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my entire life I've been telling stories. And

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so I kind of very naturally fell into Creative

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Orthodox. And it's interesting that you're coming

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from a marketing background. I thought for sure

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you'd have some sort of artistic training or

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training in the arts or digital media, even something.

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But coming from marketing, how did that help?

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Yeah, so marketing is actually storytelling.

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And I would say this about most projects and

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things that I make. It's actually... It's actually

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stronger from a storytelling perspective than

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the artistic and the technical standpoint. And

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so in everything I do, even even at work, it's

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all it's I live and die by story from marketing

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to grow in marketing. You have to know your audience.

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You have to know what they're what you're trying

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to say, the concise message that you're trying

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to deliver. And it's the same thing. And it God

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has sort of. worked with me in this way in my

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life where the things that I need to learn to

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help me with my projects or service or help me

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grow um end up working their way into all aspects

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of my life and so when at a time where I need

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to get into filmmaking I would get a project

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at work to start going and shooting commercials

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at a time where I would need to start getting

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into audio same thing at work and so and and

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vice versa so things that I would do for creative

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orthodox help helped me go further in my career

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so is it was sort of this mutually beneficial

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relationship between my work and other aspects

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of my life and creative orthodox very nice and

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you know the challenges of trying to find work

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and all that stuff to be able to to channel all

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that creative energy into something like this.

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You channeled it into the faith and produced

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something and created something that's truly

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remarkable and unique. I don't know of any other

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illustrator or digital media creator out there

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that's Orthodox and creating, at least Coptic

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Orthodox, and creating similar things. And it's

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amazing. And my question is, with all of the

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things that the church does, where does digital

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media fit into the grand scheme of things? I

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mean, I know a lot of people who have artistic

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ability and they usually tend to go into the

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route of iconography. So I'll sidestep your question

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to frame my answer. I actually think this storytelling

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is in the fabric of the church. 20 steps back.

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Actually, I actually think storytelling is every

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human's way of communicating, disseminating information

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and building, passing down culture and tradition.

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So that's just the natural human way of communicating.

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But I actually think specifically story and narrative

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is a way of action. A way that the Holy Spirit

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takes action in our lives. Christ could have

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used any way of communicating, but he chose story,

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he chose parables. I actually think this is fascinating.

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In stories of a lot of the saints, you have the

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Spirit guiding someone specifically to get the

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story. In the life of St. Mary of Egypt, Abba

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Zosimas, specifically, all he did in her life.

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Well, he gave them communion, so there's that.

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But all he did in her life is led by the spirit

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to get her story down. And that was it. That

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was the end of their interaction. And so even

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when you take a look at the life of St. John

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the Short, it was written by a saint, Zachariah

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of Sacha. And he was just a well -learned man,

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a rarity at the time. He worked for the government

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because he knew how to read and write. And he

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was called by the Spirit to become a monk. And

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then the monks passed down the story of St. John

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the Short. And that's how we have his story today.

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And so I feel like that's one explicit thread

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when it comes to storytelling. The church itself,

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we have the institution narrative every liturgy.

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So story permeates every aspect of our faith.

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And I feel like the Holy Spirit uses story to

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bring humans, to bring us closer to God. And

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so when I think of creative orthodox, I don't

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just think of it as a way of digital media. I

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almost feel compelled to, and I think everyone

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should have the same drive. If you're able to

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tell a story and you know these stories of the

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faith, it is your duty to tell that story. Because

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if you didn't, then these stories might die.

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And that's where you have things like people

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specifically, like Abba Pavnotius, like was led

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by the spirit specifically to go in the desert,

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take down and write down the stories of the saints.

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And that's how we know the story of Abba Nofer,

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the anchorite. So it's like if these people who

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are writers, like let's not view them in that

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shell of a saint, who are writers, painters,

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artists, the ones who painted the walls and frescoes

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in the monasteries. If these people chose not

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to tell stories. we would have had huge gaps

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in our tradition, huge gaps in the beautiful

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tapestry that is Coptic Orthodoxy. And so that's

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the way that I view it. I don't so much view

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it as, oh, there's social media. Let's do something

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cool there. Let's have an account. Let's run

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it. Let's make pictures. I just view it as the

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church itself and our faith is story. And if

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I can, and I love this stuff and I enjoy it,

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that's my hobby. I will tell these stories. Right.

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And it's actually, it's a way of bringing us

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into that grander story, the story of salvation.

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Yep. Right. And I love, of course, how you mentioned

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how that common element in many of the same stories

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about someone's only role in the story is to

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go get the story. Like St. Julius Al -Aqfasi,

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who is the biographer of the saints, who is...

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Every time he appears in a story, his role is

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to look at the story, just to write it down,

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write down what happened, and to witness for

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that, to provide that witness and to say, this

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is what happened. And it's not just as a way

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of documenting history. there's a purpose to

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it right like it's hagiography it's bringing

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us into the story it's pushing us forward towards

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something towards holiness towards righteousness

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right so it's not like like you're saying it's

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not just digital media for its own sake yep I

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love how there's a purpose behind it. It's something

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that draws you in. Whenever you see one of those

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paintings, drawings for one of the saints, illustrations,

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thank you. So whenever you see one of those illustrations

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for one of the feasts of the church, one of the

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saints, it draws you into the story of the saint.

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It's not just about reminding us, yeah, today

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is the feast of St. Anthony or today is the feast

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of St. Moses. It draws you into a story, into

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the life of the saint. yeah and so two two points

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here that i want to bring forward and and you

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remind me of that i'm actually very careful not

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calling any of the work i do icons and i'm actually

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relatively inconsistent with this but sometimes

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i make the decision to not have a halo to be

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to purposefully say this is not an icon this

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is not a an object of prayer Sometimes I add

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the halo. It's inconsistent. But the times that

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I do ignore it is because that's on my mind.

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And I am not illustrating within the trained

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and the incredible tradition of iconography.

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It's story. It actually is story. And that's

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also an extension of how I was raised. I immigrated

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to Canada when I was 14 years old. um and so

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i in in egypt i have really fond memories of

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my geddo he would um he he lived in shobra we

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lived in maedi and he would bring after he would

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come visit us um in our home over the weekend

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he will go to a liturgy and he would come back

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and i remember he he comes back and i'd be very

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excited because he gets a full urban um from

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the hamel so i'd be really excited for the full

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urban and then he would come in we'd go into

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a room and he had he had a a brown briefcase

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i remember vividly and the briefcase the plastic

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and had like a leather texture to it he would

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sit down very slowly very carefully open it up

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and he would he would So the back of the briefcase

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is to me, so I can't see what he's picking up.

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And so it was very exciting for me. And he would

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take out pictures of the saints that he picked

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up at the bookstore. And every week he would

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do this. He would go get different pictures,

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pick them up and would bring them. And every

00:14:50.970 --> 00:14:52.769
time he would pass them to me, tell me their

00:14:52.769 --> 00:14:57.440
story and we'll go from there. At the same time,

00:14:57.500 --> 00:15:02.460
my tita's brother was a monk at Dera Suryan,

00:15:02.559 --> 00:15:05.240
so Abuna Personofius. And then whenever he would

00:15:05.240 --> 00:15:08.600
have any medical procedures to do in the city,

00:15:08.740 --> 00:15:11.539
he would come, he would visit, and he would always

00:15:11.539 --> 00:15:14.639
sit us down and he would start telling these

00:15:14.639 --> 00:15:17.000
stories. And whoever remembers details of the

00:15:17.000 --> 00:15:19.100
story, he would give them a picture of the saint

00:15:19.100 --> 00:15:21.740
from his pocket. And I didn't realize this at

00:15:21.740 --> 00:15:23.559
the time. And the things that he was giving away

00:15:23.559 --> 00:15:26.269
was the things that he had. had collected along

00:15:26.269 --> 00:15:28.169
the visit so he can go back to the monastery

00:15:28.169 --> 00:15:31.289
empty pockets same way he left exactly so he

00:15:31.289 --> 00:15:33.549
would he would visit people accumulate things

00:15:33.549 --> 00:15:35.809
and then as he asked question he just gives them

00:15:35.809 --> 00:15:39.129
back as he's as he's moving and so i was raised

00:15:39.129 --> 00:15:42.490
on on story in this way and that's why that's

00:15:42.490 --> 00:15:45.269
sort of the place that i operate and not not

00:15:45.269 --> 00:15:48.330
iconography i feel like this is its own pillar

00:15:48.330 --> 00:15:51.820
in our In our tradition. But there's also the

00:15:51.820 --> 00:15:55.279
aspect of story that is a very big part of why

00:15:55.279 --> 00:15:58.299
such a small collection of persecuted people

00:15:58.299 --> 00:16:01.659
in Egypt made it over the centuries. Because

00:16:01.659 --> 00:16:03.840
the story. Because they told their story. Yeah.

00:16:04.360 --> 00:16:07.960
And so I would assume you would see yourself

00:16:07.960 --> 00:16:10.519
as a storyteller. Yep. More than anything else.

00:16:10.539 --> 00:16:13.059
You're a storyteller. And this happens to be

00:16:13.059 --> 00:16:15.519
your vehicle, your medium, the way you're telling

00:16:15.519 --> 00:16:18.320
the story. And it's actually probably frustrating

00:16:18.320 --> 00:16:24.409
for... For anyone who follows my work, if they

00:16:24.409 --> 00:16:26.490
had liked one thing or another, because I keep

00:16:26.490 --> 00:16:29.470
switching the mode. I did graphic novels, and

00:16:29.470 --> 00:16:32.049
then I switched to coloring books and picture

00:16:32.049 --> 00:16:34.990
books for children, then switched to the documentary,

00:16:35.289 --> 00:16:38.250
so a bit of filmmaking, and then switched into

00:16:38.250 --> 00:16:41.029
the audio drama, pure audio. And actually in

00:16:41.029 --> 00:16:43.710
Kitchener several years ago, we made a dinner,

00:16:43.789 --> 00:16:47.169
and it was the story of salvation told through

00:16:47.169 --> 00:16:52.320
the meals. So we would have every course, it

00:16:52.320 --> 00:16:55.789
was a nine course. um dinner and every one is

00:16:55.789 --> 00:16:57.570
part of the story of salvation it was the garden

00:16:57.570 --> 00:17:00.830
of eden was a garden salad as an appetizer and

00:17:00.830 --> 00:17:05.609
then we had the the ark as as first um soup but

00:17:05.609 --> 00:17:07.670
without the water and then servers would go around

00:17:07.670 --> 00:17:11.789
and drown drown the the soup and so it kept going

00:17:11.789 --> 00:17:16.390
and then the we were very careful in the application

00:17:16.390 --> 00:17:19.769
i'm giving a very blunt summary of it but um

00:17:19.769 --> 00:17:23.690
then it comes to the the sacrifice and resurrection

00:17:23.690 --> 00:17:27.869
resurrection being a dessert so it's a sweetness

00:17:27.869 --> 00:17:30.809
we actually had in the fall we had a salad and

00:17:30.809 --> 00:17:34.210
in it we had very bitter flavors so the person

00:17:34.210 --> 00:17:36.069
would start getting into it and then all of a

00:17:36.069 --> 00:17:38.369
sudden they start tasting like the apple but

00:17:38.369 --> 00:17:40.109
then also and fruit and then they would start

00:17:40.109 --> 00:17:43.549
tasting bitterness so i i actually i don't i

00:17:43.549 --> 00:17:46.930
i don't stick with one vehicle just because it's

00:17:46.930 --> 00:17:51.059
whatever i'm into at the time whatever mode tells

00:17:51.059 --> 00:17:53.319
the story the best. It usually starts with what

00:17:53.319 --> 00:17:54.940
story am I trying to tell and then it sort of

00:17:54.940 --> 00:17:58.339
dictates what. um what the vehicle is but yeah

00:17:58.339 --> 00:18:00.099
it must be frustrating for someone who likes

00:18:00.099 --> 00:18:02.140
one thing and is expecting more of it and he's

00:18:02.140 --> 00:18:04.019
and someone who's following your work and then

00:18:04.019 --> 00:18:06.200
to see like okay now he's switching lanes yep

00:18:06.200 --> 00:18:08.079
he's still telling stories but he's doing something

00:18:08.079 --> 00:18:10.400
else with it i love how you're doing it with

00:18:10.400 --> 00:18:12.859
food even that's amazing was this something at

00:18:12.859 --> 00:18:15.420
your home or a church it was a church it was

00:18:15.420 --> 00:18:18.180
a church and we actually i mean there's so much

00:18:18.180 --> 00:18:20.299
involved with it but we actually wanted to um

00:18:23.270 --> 00:18:26.329
expand it to name like the neighboring churches

00:18:26.329 --> 00:18:28.829
in the gta as well and then we also explored

00:18:28.829 --> 00:18:31.630
well what if we go to churches use their kitchens

00:18:31.630 --> 00:18:33.650
and tell the story there so there's a lot of

00:18:33.650 --> 00:18:36.069
unexplored territory there for that project specifically

00:18:36.069 --> 00:18:40.849
um but yeah and speaking of influences you have

00:18:40.849 --> 00:18:44.450
you mentioned your grandfather and your uncle

00:18:44.450 --> 00:18:49.359
correct my teta's brother teta's brother Both

00:18:49.359 --> 00:18:52.759
of these were in Egypt. When you immigrated,

00:18:52.779 --> 00:18:56.279
you came here at 14 years old, around that time.

00:18:56.420 --> 00:18:59.259
So what kind of things influenced your thinking

00:18:59.259 --> 00:19:04.640
as you went through the high school, university

00:19:04.640 --> 00:19:08.220
kind of years? Yeah, so to a very large degree,

00:19:08.480 --> 00:19:12.619
it was a combination of... It continued being

00:19:12.619 --> 00:19:16.819
my grandfather until the end of high school when

00:19:16.819 --> 00:19:23.240
he... and then my father he is very well learned

00:19:23.240 --> 00:19:29.359
in theology so our home is riddled um my parents

00:19:29.359 --> 00:19:32.819
home is riddled with books on theology and such

00:19:32.819 --> 00:19:35.420
and him and i have a very funny way of communicating

00:19:35.420 --> 00:19:39.640
where if i even express a secondary thought of

00:19:39.640 --> 00:19:44.309
a question about the faith that i have um He

00:19:44.309 --> 00:19:46.150
wouldn't sit me down and start explaining it

00:19:46.150 --> 00:19:48.750
to me because that's not how either of us kind

00:19:48.750 --> 00:19:51.809
of think and approach it. I would start seeing

00:19:51.809 --> 00:19:54.309
trickles of these books appearing all around

00:19:54.309 --> 00:19:56.930
me, stacks of these books appearing around me.

00:19:56.970 --> 00:19:59.849
And so it's a very fun way of communicating where

00:19:59.849 --> 00:20:03.309
if I have a project, I just, and from watching

00:20:03.309 --> 00:20:07.460
him, he's been writing. for i think for 20 plus

00:20:07.460 --> 00:20:11.220
years um for a publication egypt so i would see

00:20:11.220 --> 00:20:13.759
him sit down with these books preparing writing

00:20:13.759 --> 00:20:18.220
in egypt he he wrote plays he so that that sort

00:20:18.220 --> 00:20:22.420
of space um in a way i was just echoing what

00:20:22.420 --> 00:20:25.700
i see my father what i saw my father do And then

00:20:25.700 --> 00:20:29.480
the other huge influence was Father Anthony Paul,

00:20:29.680 --> 00:20:33.339
where he was part of our close friends group.

00:20:33.400 --> 00:20:38.220
And all together, we saw his love for St. Anthony.

00:20:38.420 --> 00:20:45.200
And all of us converged on that love so much

00:20:45.200 --> 00:20:49.079
so that it became a fabric of all of who we are.

00:20:49.450 --> 00:20:52.190
as as people whenever he had a feast we would

00:20:52.190 --> 00:20:54.849
have a cake we would a cake for ava anthony and

00:20:54.849 --> 00:20:59.609
then we'd read his life um and do tasbah had

00:20:59.609 --> 00:21:02.250
the night before it it became a non -negotiable

00:21:02.250 --> 00:21:05.910
for us as a group of friends um and so that that

00:21:05.910 --> 00:21:09.349
was another that was another huge influence on

00:21:09.349 --> 00:21:11.869
me and that's that's why i sort of gravitated

00:21:11.869 --> 00:21:14.269
to this place i'm in with the desert fathers

00:21:14.269 --> 00:21:18.269
um and patristics and such And I noticed that

00:21:18.269 --> 00:21:21.730
in your work, Desert Fathers occupy a large portion.

00:21:22.089 --> 00:21:25.390
It's mostly Desert Fathers. Yeah. And you focus

00:21:25.390 --> 00:21:28.390
so much on their lives. And it started with St.

00:21:28.509 --> 00:21:32.470
Anthony. Yeah. And then it went to other Desert

00:21:32.470 --> 00:21:36.190
Fathers. So what's your preparation process like?

00:21:36.630 --> 00:21:40.569
So this is the part where I actually, I take

00:21:40.569 --> 00:21:42.170
a step back and I notice that the things that

00:21:42.170 --> 00:21:44.210
I'm making are the things that I would have loved

00:21:44.210 --> 00:21:50.420
to consume when I was younger. I loved comics.

00:21:50.539 --> 00:21:53.920
I still love comics. I grew up on both Disney,

00:21:54.099 --> 00:21:56.640
superheroes, love Batman, all of these things.

00:21:57.200 --> 00:22:03.740
Lord of the Rings. These things are the way that

00:22:03.740 --> 00:22:07.559
I find, that I interpret and find meaning in

00:22:07.559 --> 00:22:11.920
life or find life's meaning kind of thing. And

00:22:11.920 --> 00:22:17.079
so when it comes to... illustrating the life

00:22:17.079 --> 00:22:19.039
of a saint or researching the life of a saint

00:22:19.039 --> 00:22:24.039
usually I start with the church calendar because

00:22:24.039 --> 00:22:27.640
again the church is such an amazing storyteller

00:22:28.000 --> 00:22:30.380
throughout the year the way that the saints the

00:22:30.380 --> 00:22:32.539
way that the different the different saints are

00:22:32.539 --> 00:22:34.599
interwoven in what the church is celebrating

00:22:34.599 --> 00:22:37.720
now even the way that we when when it comes to

00:22:37.720 --> 00:22:40.640
holy week we change the curtains to black to

00:22:40.640 --> 00:22:42.900
white like there's a there's this incredible

00:22:42.900 --> 00:22:44.599
narrative throughout the year that the church

00:22:44.599 --> 00:22:47.380
um that is right in front of our eyes but is

00:22:47.380 --> 00:22:51.380
really easy to to kind of miss um and so that's

00:22:51.380 --> 00:22:52.859
usually where i start where it's like what's

00:22:52.859 --> 00:22:55.859
coming up when it like what's a feast day that's

00:22:55.859 --> 00:22:58.140
coming up From there, I usually take a look at

00:22:58.140 --> 00:23:03.240
the Synexarium. Most often, the Synexarium doesn't

00:23:03.240 --> 00:23:08.900
have a lot of detail, doesn't have a lot of historical

00:23:08.900 --> 00:23:12.160
grounding. And so then I'd start taking a look

00:23:12.160 --> 00:23:14.420
at manuscripts. I'd start looking at translations,

00:23:15.200 --> 00:23:20.839
works by Tim Vivian, Deacon Severus. Michael,

00:23:21.140 --> 00:23:24.180
there's so much out there. And this is where

00:23:24.180 --> 00:23:27.980
younger me would have been so thankful. It's

00:23:27.980 --> 00:23:30.180
just reading these things is tough. You're reading

00:23:30.180 --> 00:23:32.579
something. I experienced this when drawing The

00:23:32.579 --> 00:23:35.240
Life of St. John the Short. The manuscript is

00:23:35.240 --> 00:23:38.099
not written how we interpret stories today. obviously

00:23:38.099 --> 00:23:41.299
it was in the fourth century it's written as

00:23:41.299 --> 00:23:44.720
um more like a mosaic of like saint john did

00:23:44.720 --> 00:23:47.839
this saint john did this and he did this and

00:23:47.839 --> 00:23:49.980
then did this and then he died let us emulate

00:23:49.980 --> 00:23:52.640
him and that's the way that they consume story

00:23:52.640 --> 00:23:55.940
back then it's changed right now we have a very

00:23:55.940 --> 00:24:00.339
tight um way of story whereas someone woke up

00:24:00.339 --> 00:24:02.619
something changed the way that something changed

00:24:02.619 --> 00:24:05.299
the way their day -to -day they went on an adventure

00:24:05.299 --> 00:24:07.700
they refused the adventure they decided to take

00:24:07.700 --> 00:24:10.700
it on they grew they fought there was a darkest

00:24:10.700 --> 00:24:14.039
night they chose to overcome and then they changed

00:24:14.039 --> 00:24:16.299
and they became a different person and rinse

00:24:16.299 --> 00:24:18.299
and repeat that's just the the story cycle and

00:24:18.299 --> 00:24:20.940
so when you take that and you apply it to a manuscript

00:24:20.940 --> 00:24:25.710
you see you see that it's a very different um

00:24:25.710 --> 00:24:28.369
a very different way of telling the story and

00:24:28.369 --> 00:24:31.309
so that's i think where the bulk of my work goes

00:24:31.309 --> 00:24:35.230
into it's let's look at the original um text

00:24:35.230 --> 00:24:37.849
let's look at the the translated text english

00:24:37.849 --> 00:24:41.490
or arabic and let's find a narrative in there

00:24:41.490 --> 00:24:44.730
and translate it to whatever medium that uh that

00:24:44.730 --> 00:24:49.430
comes out of it very nice and obviously it goes

00:24:49.430 --> 00:24:51.490
without saying that there's a lot of work there's

00:24:51.490 --> 00:24:54.420
a lot of reading that goes into it consuming

00:24:54.420 --> 00:24:56.660
everything that you can get your hands on trying

00:24:56.660 --> 00:24:59.799
to get as much data as much information is there

00:24:59.799 --> 00:25:04.539
someone that kind of like a reference at the

00:25:04.539 --> 00:25:08.960
rate at the rate i go i usually finish it depends

00:25:08.960 --> 00:25:12.640
on big projects i have i have a a group of close

00:25:12.640 --> 00:25:15.119
friends and harsh critics um where i where i

00:25:15.119 --> 00:25:18.420
send i send the the work and kind of get their

00:25:18.420 --> 00:25:22.579
get their feedback And my parents as well and

00:25:22.579 --> 00:25:25.400
my sister. If you want to know the pure opinion

00:25:25.400 --> 00:25:28.039
about anything in life, just ask your family.

00:25:28.299 --> 00:25:31.680
They will not sugarcoat anything. Absolutely.

00:25:32.960 --> 00:25:37.180
So I have a circle where I do send these things.

00:25:37.259 --> 00:25:40.779
The smaller stuff like the day -to -day, I sort

00:25:40.779 --> 00:25:44.059
of just get the small stories out there. But

00:25:44.059 --> 00:25:47.500
for bigger projects, absolutely. It's so easy

00:25:47.500 --> 00:25:53.079
to make mistakes, especially since there's so

00:25:53.079 --> 00:25:55.339
much about the faith. I'll give you an example.

00:25:55.460 --> 00:26:00.140
At some point, I was excited about representing

00:26:00.140 --> 00:26:06.579
an Orthodox family. And so I drew the Holy Family.

00:26:06.740 --> 00:26:09.269
And I was so excited about it. let's do this

00:26:09.269 --> 00:26:11.549
then i then i started getting the feedback that

00:26:11.549 --> 00:26:14.930
actually we don't really love illustrating um

00:26:14.930 --> 00:26:17.849
saint joseph with christ and saint mary because

00:26:17.849 --> 00:26:21.130
it doesn't communicate the true nature the true

00:26:21.130 --> 00:26:23.470
nature of christ so even though it's right it's

00:26:23.470 --> 00:26:25.670
not we don't really typically do it in this form

00:26:25.670 --> 00:26:27.849
and so these subtle things there's so much of

00:26:27.849 --> 00:26:32.349
it in in all in all the stories of the saints

00:26:32.349 --> 00:26:34.670
and so it is very easy to make a mistake and

00:26:34.670 --> 00:26:37.230
that's why i have great respect for iconography

00:26:37.230 --> 00:26:40.990
because it has these parameters where which a

00:26:40.990 --> 00:26:44.569
master or a master iconographer would teach those

00:26:44.569 --> 00:26:49.710
those rules um to to a student and so for lack

00:26:49.710 --> 00:26:52.910
of that i i've i make i've made i can i will

00:26:52.910 --> 00:26:54.630
continue making these mistakes i'm trying to

00:26:54.630 --> 00:26:59.109
learn learn from it um as i as i tell these stories

00:26:59.710 --> 00:27:01.910
And I think that's where you probably grow the

00:27:01.910 --> 00:27:07.470
most is from learning. And as a modern person

00:27:07.470 --> 00:27:09.430
reading something from the 4th century, from

00:27:09.430 --> 00:27:12.829
the 7th century, it's so hard to not read something

00:27:12.829 --> 00:27:15.670
into the story. Right. Like you want to read

00:27:15.670 --> 00:27:18.509
it this way because this is how you would react

00:27:18.509 --> 00:27:20.250
if you were there. If you were the person in

00:27:20.250 --> 00:27:22.930
the story, what would I do? Right. And it's very

00:27:22.930 --> 00:27:25.049
difficult to kind of read it on its own terms.

00:27:25.250 --> 00:27:27.509
And I love how you're able to do that and then

00:27:27.509 --> 00:27:30.650
present it in a way so that someone from the

00:27:30.650 --> 00:27:33.509
21st century is able to read that and not misunderstand,

00:27:33.869 --> 00:27:37.609
not kind of read something into the story. Absolutely.

00:27:38.049 --> 00:27:39.789
I'll give you an example. And I still struggle

00:27:39.789 --> 00:27:41.890
with this. I struggle with my decision, but you

00:27:41.890 --> 00:27:45.029
make it, you move on. In the life of St. John

00:27:45.029 --> 00:27:47.630
the Short, Abba Amoy, when he first sees him,

00:27:48.109 --> 00:27:52.150
Abba Amoy kicks him out. After St. John the Short

00:27:52.150 --> 00:27:57.210
made a 12 -day journey to reach the monastery,

00:27:57.609 --> 00:28:00.569
and then Abba Amoy ignored him. He told him,

00:28:00.650 --> 00:28:02.769
you're not going to be a monk. You're not going

00:28:02.769 --> 00:28:06.509
to last a day. And then he kicked John out. John

00:28:06.509 --> 00:28:10.309
sat outside of his cell praying. And Abba Amoy,

00:28:10.410 --> 00:28:14.329
every day, for weeks at a time he would go out

00:28:14.329 --> 00:28:18.430
with um with branches and he would beat saint

00:28:18.430 --> 00:28:22.950
john away from near his cell every day he opens

00:28:22.950 --> 00:28:25.109
the door of his cell beats saint john saint john

00:28:25.109 --> 00:28:27.910
goes and then comes back continues praying until

00:28:27.910 --> 00:28:30.190
after that period of time about one went out

00:28:30.190 --> 00:28:32.750
and saw saint john praying and then he's surrounded

00:28:32.750 --> 00:28:35.380
by seven angels praying with him he was like

00:28:35.380 --> 00:28:38.960
okay wait a minute um but for me when i made

00:28:38.960 --> 00:28:41.680
the the graphic novel i actually chose not to

00:28:41.680 --> 00:28:44.779
not to include that and for better for worse

00:28:44.779 --> 00:28:48.119
i felt like i'm from a narrative perspective

00:28:48.119 --> 00:28:50.400
usually this is the point the point where you

00:28:50.400 --> 00:28:53.740
have that father figure come in that sensei that

00:28:53.740 --> 00:28:58.440
that teacher and um you want to communicate to

00:28:58.440 --> 00:29:00.559
the reader how incredible they are how much they're

00:29:00.559 --> 00:29:04.839
building um the protagonist and so at at the

00:29:04.839 --> 00:29:06.799
point of making the book i decided not to include

00:29:06.799 --> 00:29:09.839
that i figured it's it paints about moi in a

00:29:09.839 --> 00:29:13.480
very harsh way exactly and the modern the modern

00:29:13.480 --> 00:29:15.460
reader might not see through that they might

00:29:15.460 --> 00:29:18.250
say like How are you teaching love when this

00:29:18.250 --> 00:29:19.990
is how you're welcoming someone who comes to

00:29:19.990 --> 00:29:23.890
your monastery? And so I made the decision not

00:29:23.890 --> 00:29:26.210
to include it. I don't know. I still think about

00:29:26.210 --> 00:29:28.750
it sometimes. I think maybe, you know, you're

00:29:28.750 --> 00:29:31.589
representing the part of discipline, the part

00:29:31.589 --> 00:29:35.369
of chose the seriousness of taking that vow of

00:29:35.369 --> 00:29:37.799
poverty and becoming a monk. I don't know if

00:29:37.799 --> 00:29:39.660
it was the right decision or wrong, but that's

00:29:39.660 --> 00:29:41.299
what I mean is that there are so many chances

00:29:41.299 --> 00:29:45.180
to make these little decisions and cloud the

00:29:45.180 --> 00:29:48.519
story with my own interpretation. But I think

00:29:48.519 --> 00:29:51.339
this must have happened in the same manuscript

00:29:51.339 --> 00:29:54.700
of the St. John the Short. There is a huge paragraph.

00:29:56.140 --> 00:29:59.799
that that goes on basically a rant an anti -chalcedonian

00:29:59.799 --> 00:30:02.079
rant and it was obviously just the interpretation

00:30:02.079 --> 00:30:05.859
of of saint zacharias that's he was feeling at

00:30:05.859 --> 00:30:08.319
the time and it's a it's the same with on the

00:30:08.319 --> 00:30:11.180
incarnation You have St. Athanasius communicating

00:30:11.180 --> 00:30:17.960
how St. Anthony and he reacted towards the Arians.

00:30:18.259 --> 00:30:21.039
And so no matter what, whenever someone sits

00:30:21.039 --> 00:30:24.099
down to write a story, it obviously takes their

00:30:24.099 --> 00:30:29.170
own personal lens. And that's scary. for me it's

00:30:29.170 --> 00:30:31.650
a lot of responsibility on your shoulders exactly

00:30:31.650 --> 00:30:33.950
but we do have a lot of that like we have in

00:30:33.950 --> 00:30:36.549
the story of saint moses and the the treatment

00:30:36.549 --> 00:30:39.069
he receives in the monastery i mean like you

00:30:39.069 --> 00:30:42.250
know uh it seems like i mean this must have been

00:30:42.250 --> 00:30:45.470
such a harsh thing like to come in earnestly

00:30:45.470 --> 00:30:48.369
seeking god and then you know being put through

00:30:48.369 --> 00:30:50.990
all these tests and then still enduring any you

00:30:50.990 --> 00:30:53.130
see this like you hear stories about like sanctuary

00:30:53.130 --> 00:30:56.130
right to your stories even about saint cyril

00:30:56.779 --> 00:30:58.799
of Alexandria. And, you know, for the longest

00:30:58.799 --> 00:31:01.180
time in the West, he's vilified because, you

00:31:01.180 --> 00:31:05.059
know, harshness of, you know, it's so easy to

00:31:05.059 --> 00:31:06.779
fall into that mistake that, you know, as a modern,

00:31:06.839 --> 00:31:08.980
you're reading a lot into the story and not reading

00:31:08.980 --> 00:31:12.240
it necessarily on its own terms. And if you,

00:31:12.259 --> 00:31:15.200
if you hear stories today, not stories from the

00:31:15.200 --> 00:31:18.740
fourth century, but today, you know, about monastic

00:31:18.740 --> 00:31:21.339
communities and how they function and, you know,

00:31:21.359 --> 00:31:24.240
the kind of seriousness that they approach monasticism.

00:31:25.200 --> 00:31:28.440
This is not something interpreted as like, you

00:31:28.440 --> 00:31:32.059
know, you have to be nice and polite and you

00:31:32.059 --> 00:31:35.160
have to be like, these are people who are going

00:31:35.160 --> 00:31:39.359
out there to be tested to their limit, to face,

00:31:39.359 --> 00:31:42.079
you know, the spiritual battle at its harshest,

00:31:42.079 --> 00:31:44.599
right? They're not there, you know, to be coddled.

00:31:44.859 --> 00:31:47.099
They're there to be tested and that's why they

00:31:47.099 --> 00:31:50.000
go there to be tested, right? I see also that...

00:31:50.509 --> 00:31:55.410
You do focus a lot on earlier saints, but there

00:31:55.410 --> 00:31:58.009
are a few modern saints that you've included,

00:31:58.130 --> 00:32:01.430
like Father Saman Shahata. What was the motivation

00:32:01.430 --> 00:32:04.529
behind that? Kind of do an illustration for him.

00:32:04.789 --> 00:32:09.390
It's still this line that I try to walk, where

00:32:09.390 --> 00:32:15.309
I called the platform or brand, whatever, Creative

00:32:15.309 --> 00:32:18.890
Orthodox. To be able to tell the stories of our

00:32:18.890 --> 00:32:23.589
saints and not offend people who might, for example,

00:32:23.589 --> 00:32:26.190
shun it just if it's called Coptic Orthodox,

00:32:26.529 --> 00:32:31.690
for example. I didn't call it like creative Christian,

00:32:31.890 --> 00:32:33.690
for example, because I feel like there are so

00:32:33.690 --> 00:32:35.769
many artists that are way and storytellers way

00:32:35.769 --> 00:32:38.910
better than I am telling those stories at that

00:32:38.910 --> 00:32:42.630
level. And so that's that's sort of why I focus

00:32:42.630 --> 00:32:45.470
on creative Orthodox. and at the same time i

00:32:45.470 --> 00:32:47.869
focus on early fathers because they are the ones

00:32:47.869 --> 00:32:52.069
that are common across um eastern and oriental

00:32:52.069 --> 00:32:54.890
orthodoxy so it's a good it's a good way to tell

00:32:54.890 --> 00:32:57.509
these stories of these incredible saints away

00:32:57.509 --> 00:33:00.269
from any preconceived notions away from that

00:33:00.269 --> 00:33:02.710
right from all the polemics and all that exactly

00:33:02.710 --> 00:33:06.230
um and sort of do that one work telling that

00:33:06.230 --> 00:33:09.490
story and serve a bigger a bigger portion of

00:33:09.490 --> 00:33:16.130
um of christians on the other hand When I think

00:33:16.130 --> 00:33:19.269
an advantage of social media is the speed with

00:33:19.269 --> 00:33:24.549
which it goes. I think an iconographer would

00:33:24.549 --> 00:33:27.769
write an incredible icon for these martyrs, but

00:33:27.769 --> 00:33:30.529
it might take a week, it might take a month.

00:33:30.690 --> 00:33:36.190
And so something that I feel is within the limits

00:33:36.190 --> 00:33:38.710
of my service is when there's a modern martyr.

00:33:39.409 --> 00:33:42.910
I like to illustrate a picture so the picture

00:33:42.910 --> 00:33:44.670
of them, if there's a picture of them bloody,

00:33:45.210 --> 00:33:49.230
like from the investigation, from whatever, I

00:33:49.230 --> 00:33:51.930
wouldn't want that to be a thing. You wouldn't

00:33:51.930 --> 00:33:53.490
feel comfortable sharing it with your kids, for

00:33:53.490 --> 00:33:57.009
example. So I usually do it under the guise of

00:33:57.009 --> 00:34:01.009
let's put something quick together, simple, but

00:34:01.009 --> 00:34:06.150
an image to put them in context with the rest

00:34:06.150 --> 00:34:08.170
of the cloud of witnesses. Like these same saints

00:34:08.170 --> 00:34:10.250
that I'm drawing, The church hasn't stopped.

00:34:10.409 --> 00:34:12.309
It's still going and we're still telling these

00:34:12.309 --> 00:34:16.550
stories and adding them to the same larger picture

00:34:16.550 --> 00:34:18.550
and the same cloud of witnesses that we have.

00:34:18.730 --> 00:34:22.849
And so that's the main reason why I tend to illustrate

00:34:22.849 --> 00:34:26.570
also modern saints to kind of tell that story

00:34:26.570 --> 00:34:29.909
of it's still going. It didn't stop in the fourth

00:34:29.909 --> 00:34:32.050
century. It's bringing people into that reality

00:34:32.050 --> 00:34:34.389
that we're still in the church. There's still

00:34:34.389 --> 00:34:37.210
the cloud of witnesses is growing. Exactly. But

00:34:37.210 --> 00:34:39.869
at the same time, I usually have the same challenges

00:34:39.869 --> 00:34:45.889
that we just talked about. I try to pause, investigate,

00:34:46.070 --> 00:34:50.030
look into it. How did the martyr die? Is it verified

00:34:50.030 --> 00:34:52.110
by the church? Like all these things. I don't

00:34:52.110 --> 00:34:55.050
want to rush just because of how fast things

00:34:55.050 --> 00:35:00.090
may go, how fast news can go and falsehoods can

00:35:00.090 --> 00:35:06.280
go around. I don't like it too much, that part,

00:35:07.179 --> 00:35:09.079
how quick these things make go. It's like a double

00:35:09.079 --> 00:35:11.420
-edged sword. Exactly, exactly. So sometimes

00:35:11.420 --> 00:35:15.019
you'll notice that sometimes I would have forgone

00:35:15.019 --> 00:35:18.940
drawing a person or another just because I just

00:35:18.940 --> 00:35:20.619
wasn't comfortable with the whole thing. But

00:35:20.619 --> 00:35:23.800
if it is, if the church came out and identified

00:35:23.800 --> 00:35:26.119
them as a martyr, I love to have this thing to

00:35:26.119 --> 00:35:28.860
share with children that is not graphic or scary.

00:35:29.599 --> 00:35:33.599
And you mentioned how we used to give out pictures

00:35:33.599 --> 00:35:36.519
in Sunday school. I miss that. Growing up, I

00:35:36.519 --> 00:35:39.199
used to get all these pictures and go home with

00:35:39.199 --> 00:35:42.380
all of them. But I don't know if we do that anymore.

00:35:42.400 --> 00:35:44.460
I don't think we do much of those. I don't think

00:35:44.460 --> 00:35:47.400
so. And if we do it, it's from an ancient...

00:35:47.400 --> 00:35:49.460
We have this stack that we haven't... We do,

00:35:49.539 --> 00:35:51.820
yeah. It's not a new... We don't make any new

00:35:51.820 --> 00:35:53.760
ones. We just use the ones we already have. Because

00:35:53.760 --> 00:35:56.639
everything is going digital now. So did you ever

00:35:56.639 --> 00:35:58.940
consider doing something that's not digital?

00:35:59.550 --> 00:36:02.369
taking it and maybe doing something in print

00:36:02.369 --> 00:36:06.250
absolutely and that that's why i also started

00:36:06.250 --> 00:36:10.550
um exploring carving recently there's there's

00:36:10.550 --> 00:36:13.670
a fleeting quality of digital like drawing with

00:36:13.670 --> 00:36:20.230
pixels um and so recently i've started um exploring

00:36:20.230 --> 00:36:23.730
exploring carving or doing ink prints so to carve

00:36:23.730 --> 00:36:26.940
a block and then put ink on it and then you put

00:36:26.940 --> 00:36:29.360
the paper so you produce something tangible something

00:36:29.360 --> 00:36:32.719
you're able you're able to hold um with this

00:36:32.719 --> 00:36:36.320
stuff i i have limitation logistical limitations

00:36:36.320 --> 00:36:40.320
as in i i do everything related to creative orthodox

00:36:40.320 --> 00:36:42.820
and so When it comes to shipping, when it comes

00:36:42.820 --> 00:36:45.260
to store setup and all of these things, finding

00:36:45.260 --> 00:36:48.320
good rates. And again, being an individual rather

00:36:48.320 --> 00:36:50.940
than a company means things are expensive. You're

00:36:50.940 --> 00:36:52.019
the only employee in the whole company. Exactly.

00:36:52.440 --> 00:36:56.579
I'm HR. All of them. Yeah. R &D, everything.

00:36:56.920 --> 00:36:59.119
Marketing. Exactly. You're meeting the whole

00:36:59.119 --> 00:37:06.079
team right now. So it's harder for me to find

00:37:06.079 --> 00:37:09.500
economies of scale and make it available at a

00:37:09.500 --> 00:37:13.340
good rate. And so I try as much as possible to

00:37:13.340 --> 00:37:18.119
make the books available cheaply, accessible

00:37:18.119 --> 00:37:20.460
and such. But at the end of the day, nothing

00:37:20.460 --> 00:37:25.280
is as easy as here is a $2 PDF. Here is this

00:37:25.280 --> 00:37:29.360
thing. It's just so much easier to do it digitally,

00:37:29.579 --> 00:37:36.099
right? Exactly. one of your illustrations for

00:37:36.099 --> 00:37:40.699
saint anthony uh the way you had the light focus

00:37:40.699 --> 00:37:43.360
in and then like everything else is darkness

00:37:43.360 --> 00:37:46.340
and saint anthony and then all the demons are

00:37:46.340 --> 00:37:48.420
you know in the periphery and then saint anthony

00:37:48.420 --> 00:37:51.679
is in the middle and you know there's light how

00:37:51.679 --> 00:37:53.800
were you able to make that happen and do that

00:37:53.800 --> 00:37:56.619
without formal training in this kind of thing

00:37:56.619 --> 00:37:58.880
is this doable like if someone has the passion

00:37:58.880 --> 00:38:00.599
someone would like to be a storyteller and you

00:38:00.599 --> 00:38:03.840
know go into these kinds of illustrations. How

00:38:03.840 --> 00:38:07.400
doable is this? It is so incredibly accessible

00:38:07.400 --> 00:38:11.519
and I think I'm the best example because my drawing

00:38:12.299 --> 00:38:14.619
and I say this with all objectivity, it is so

00:38:14.619 --> 00:38:16.780
bad. It is a child's drawing. If you actually

00:38:16.780 --> 00:38:20.280
see, I have a sketch of St. Paul that I did when

00:38:20.280 --> 00:38:25.119
I was very young. My mother usually, my parents

00:38:25.119 --> 00:38:27.900
always encouraged me to keep drawing and draw

00:38:27.900 --> 00:38:30.579
comics and such. And so my mom kept this, I believe

00:38:30.579 --> 00:38:34.199
I was four years old, but it must've been a bit

00:38:34.199 --> 00:38:36.179
after. But anyways, it was St. Paul and it was

00:38:36.179 --> 00:38:39.360
drawing. it looks exactly as how how i would

00:38:39.360 --> 00:38:42.619
draw him today i haven't changed one bit and

00:38:42.619 --> 00:38:45.900
so i and but what is encouraging to me so so

00:38:45.900 --> 00:38:48.340
that's one thing i mean i i don't think i'm particularly

00:38:48.340 --> 00:38:51.320
good at illustration but what is encouraging

00:38:51.320 --> 00:38:54.659
to me is that i and it brings me even a little

00:38:54.659 --> 00:38:56.780
bit of pride is that when i look at the frescoes

00:38:56.780 --> 00:38:59.900
in san antonis in in bowit when i look at all

00:38:59.900 --> 00:39:03.400
of these wall paintings um they look the same

00:39:03.400 --> 00:39:06.000
there it's not i mean obviously there's so much

00:39:06.000 --> 00:39:08.920
more artistry that goes into putting a fresco

00:39:08.920 --> 00:39:11.179
on a wall mixing the colors and painting them

00:39:11.179 --> 00:39:15.059
but the line the line work is simple it is it

00:39:15.059 --> 00:39:19.800
is a nice um unobstructed childish look at the

00:39:19.800 --> 00:39:22.780
story it is simple it's and that's what i love

00:39:22.780 --> 00:39:26.260
about the old coptic the old coptic art is that

00:39:26.260 --> 00:39:30.340
it is so deep but so accessible And so anyone

00:39:30.340 --> 00:39:33.559
can sit down and draw. And there are so many

00:39:33.559 --> 00:39:38.219
tutorials online now. It is so accessible. You

00:39:38.219 --> 00:39:40.699
can get a drawing tablet for, I don't know, $70.

00:39:40.699 --> 00:39:43.699
And that's it. You don't even need a drawing

00:39:43.699 --> 00:39:46.800
tablet. You can draw, scan, take a picture, and

00:39:46.800 --> 00:39:50.360
that's it. And so when it comes to that, I think

00:39:50.360 --> 00:39:55.480
the beginning is really easy. And then knowing

00:39:55.480 --> 00:39:59.730
how to... How to tell the story that you're trying

00:39:59.730 --> 00:40:03.070
to tell. This comes from practice. You'll see

00:40:03.070 --> 00:40:06.929
that I've drawn some things where I take a step

00:40:06.929 --> 00:40:09.889
back and I say, okay, the eye isn't going to

00:40:09.889 --> 00:40:12.510
the saint first. Something needs to change there.

00:40:13.769 --> 00:40:16.889
From us growing, looking at iconography, all

00:40:16.889 --> 00:40:20.880
of that. it must be entrenched in us to be able

00:40:20.880 --> 00:40:23.159
to, it's a language. And I think that our church

00:40:23.159 --> 00:40:24.880
is really good at teaching us that language.

00:40:25.079 --> 00:40:27.920
And so I think anyone who is familiar with that

00:40:27.920 --> 00:40:30.559
imagery were to sit down and start drawing and

00:40:30.559 --> 00:40:33.760
practice a little bit. With time, they'll easily,

00:40:34.059 --> 00:40:36.260
I mean, very quickly, they'll draw better than

00:40:36.260 --> 00:40:38.880
I draw. And then with time, they can even start

00:40:38.880 --> 00:40:42.000
exploring iconography wherever their heart goes.

00:40:42.650 --> 00:40:45.530
um and then you can get into a formal the formal

00:40:45.530 --> 00:40:50.050
artistic areas where when you draw something

00:40:50.050 --> 00:40:53.309
you make it black and white take a look at where

00:40:53.309 --> 00:40:57.750
what these um gradients are telling you what

00:40:57.750 --> 00:40:59.429
story these gradients are saying what's coming

00:40:59.429 --> 00:41:03.769
out what's falling in the back um and so right

00:41:03.769 --> 00:41:06.429
now my general process for for creative work

00:41:06.429 --> 00:41:09.369
and i apply this to film i apply this to scripts

00:41:09.369 --> 00:41:13.880
i apply this to any any media is um doing different

00:41:13.880 --> 00:41:17.139
like finishing the work very quickly don't don't

00:41:17.139 --> 00:41:20.440
edit too much and then just staying in editing

00:41:20.440 --> 00:41:24.559
and doing many passes of did i make any theological

00:41:24.559 --> 00:41:28.159
mistake did i is this out of the ordinary um

00:41:28.159 --> 00:41:31.420
are the colors that telling the right story like

00:41:31.420 --> 00:41:36.179
color temperature and such um or is the picture

00:41:36.179 --> 00:41:38.719
um or am i emphasizing the elements i want to

00:41:38.719 --> 00:41:40.679
emphasize that sort of thing and then just taking

00:41:40.679 --> 00:41:43.840
all these different passes of editing and at

00:41:43.840 --> 00:41:45.619
that it's so much easier at that point because

00:41:45.619 --> 00:41:48.900
you're not you're not in the in the mode of like

00:41:48.900 --> 00:41:52.119
creative expression and and focusing on drawing

00:41:52.119 --> 00:41:54.099
at that point you're just looking at it as any

00:41:54.099 --> 00:41:58.400
other um as any disconnected audience member.

00:41:58.579 --> 00:42:00.300
And so you can take a look at it and say, okay,

00:42:00.340 --> 00:42:03.059
this is right, this is wrong. And you do it separately.

00:42:03.219 --> 00:42:05.880
You do a pass for color, do a pass for values,

00:42:06.019 --> 00:42:08.460
do a pass for the line work. And so it becomes

00:42:08.460 --> 00:42:11.000
easy that way when you break it down into those

00:42:11.000 --> 00:42:12.880
different phases. And this process developed

00:42:12.880 --> 00:42:16.119
obviously over time. Absolutely. Trial and error.

00:42:16.400 --> 00:42:19.449
And it's amazing. how simple the the drawings

00:42:19.449 --> 00:42:22.610
are but they speak a lot they say a lot and they

00:42:22.610 --> 00:42:26.269
really do effectively draw you into that story

00:42:26.269 --> 00:42:31.530
and you know it's every time i look at part of

00:42:31.530 --> 00:42:34.150
the illustration like i can draw that yeah like

00:42:34.150 --> 00:42:37.989
i i and that's the like it's deceptively simple

00:42:37.989 --> 00:42:42.630
like like i can like and then yet at the same

00:42:42.630 --> 00:42:44.789
time all these elements work so well together

00:42:45.360 --> 00:42:48.480
to really bring you into that. And illustration

00:42:48.480 --> 00:42:51.820
itself doesn't become kind of like an obstacle.

00:42:52.239 --> 00:42:55.599
It draws you deeper than actual illustration,

00:42:55.840 --> 00:42:58.480
right? And it definitely helps to look at it

00:42:58.480 --> 00:43:01.719
with the liturgical, like liturgically our senses

00:43:01.719 --> 00:43:06.199
are being trained. And for someone to start doing

00:43:06.199 --> 00:43:08.099
this kind of thing, like you're not starting

00:43:08.099 --> 00:43:10.000
from scratch, like you've been in, you've been

00:43:10.000 --> 00:43:12.670
churched. You've been in a church, you're born

00:43:12.670 --> 00:43:15.730
and raised, and your eyes, your ears, your senses

00:43:15.730 --> 00:43:19.429
are being focused towards this. So when you approach

00:43:19.429 --> 00:43:23.710
this, men speak a lot, right? And the choice

00:43:23.710 --> 00:43:26.570
of colors, all of that, like the composition,

00:43:26.730 --> 00:43:30.630
it's just beautiful. And I do want to get into

00:43:30.630 --> 00:43:34.489
your big work, Anastasis, but before, I also

00:43:34.489 --> 00:43:37.730
want to ask if you consider doing something contemporary.

00:43:38.460 --> 00:43:41.019
using the same you know same techniques you know

00:43:41.019 --> 00:43:43.260
your same kind of visual have you considered

00:43:43.260 --> 00:43:47.219
doing something in it absolutely um so one i'm

00:43:47.219 --> 00:43:49.460
still trying to figure out how to tell that story

00:43:49.460 --> 00:43:52.159
is the story of saint moses the strong scene

00:43:52.159 --> 00:43:56.980
in a contemporary um present -day context and

00:43:56.980 --> 00:43:59.599
i think for this one specifically it's so easy

00:43:59.599 --> 00:44:03.440
when we talk about the saints i mean kind of

00:44:03.440 --> 00:44:05.059
it's kind of the other side of what we were just

00:44:05.059 --> 00:44:08.769
talking about where it you don't you don't think

00:44:08.769 --> 00:44:11.929
of them as this could be my dad this could be

00:44:11.929 --> 00:44:14.989
my uncle this could be someone an elder at church

00:44:14.989 --> 00:44:17.650
you just see them wearing their tunics their

00:44:17.650 --> 00:44:21.469
big crosses the halos you you separate yourself

00:44:21.469 --> 00:44:24.989
from them yeah and and even more so for the saints

00:44:24.989 --> 00:44:28.590
that that their writers made sure to say they

00:44:28.590 --> 00:44:32.469
were born praying they were since a very young

00:44:32.469 --> 00:44:36.179
age they loved god And so I think the strength

00:44:36.179 --> 00:44:38.719
of the story of St. Moses is that he didn't.

00:44:39.280 --> 00:44:41.860
And we have enough detail. We have other examples,

00:44:41.980 --> 00:44:44.760
but we have enough detail in the life of St.

00:44:44.900 --> 00:44:49.039
Moses to know what he did before he started turning

00:44:49.039 --> 00:44:50.659
towards God. He was definitely a sinner before

00:44:50.659 --> 00:44:53.519
he became a saint. Yeah, and he would have done

00:44:53.519 --> 00:44:58.159
things way worse than most of us would. Not that

00:44:58.159 --> 00:45:01.139
that matters, but it's a good example. It's sincerely

00:45:01.139 --> 00:45:06.480
a good, relatable example. um i'm really passionate

00:45:06.480 --> 00:45:08.940
about and i've had this this idea for for about

00:45:08.940 --> 00:45:12.179
seven years where to tell his story in in present

00:45:12.179 --> 00:45:16.539
day showing him struggling with drugs with gang

00:45:16.539 --> 00:45:22.519
activity stealing with um with lust and the things

00:45:22.519 --> 00:45:26.500
that are like pornography as it as it it's ravaging

00:45:26.500 --> 00:45:31.079
the young like the younger um yeah young people

00:45:31.079 --> 00:45:35.190
these days and so showing showing him going through

00:45:35.190 --> 00:45:41.630
that and showing how he turned to God. Again,

00:45:41.710 --> 00:45:43.650
there are logistical limitations that I have

00:45:43.650 --> 00:45:47.789
there. I've always envisioned it as a film. And

00:45:47.789 --> 00:45:51.389
I know that actually a filmmaker from the Eastern

00:45:51.389 --> 00:45:54.909
Church started making a film exactly the same

00:45:54.909 --> 00:45:59.289
way, the same story as told in Chicago. And so

00:45:59.289 --> 00:46:02.429
I think this is another thing that kind of goes

00:46:02.429 --> 00:46:04.909
to the beginning of our conversation. The spirit

00:46:04.909 --> 00:46:09.659
finds a way to tell the story. And so that's

00:46:09.659 --> 00:46:11.880
one way. The story is still in my heart and it's

00:46:11.880 --> 00:46:16.019
been in my mind for a long time. So I think I

00:46:16.019 --> 00:46:19.159
wanted to start exploring telling it in other

00:46:19.159 --> 00:46:22.300
formats, maybe audio. So that's one idea. But

00:46:22.300 --> 00:46:24.440
another one that I'm really passionate about,

00:46:24.619 --> 00:46:29.280
we've actually made it as a film for our church's

00:46:29.280 --> 00:46:32.420
kids camp years ago. It's called The Keepers

00:46:32.420 --> 00:46:34.880
of the Word. And the story is in a dystopian

00:46:34.880 --> 00:46:40.269
future where... all the big companies and the

00:46:40.269 --> 00:46:43.909
governments merged into one entity and in order

00:46:43.909 --> 00:46:48.230
to avoid fake news and all of these things anything

00:46:48.230 --> 00:46:51.750
that is not scientifically proven is purged and

00:46:51.750 --> 00:46:54.610
information is disseminated from one governing

00:46:54.610 --> 00:46:58.909
body of the world and so sort of taking all our

00:46:58.909 --> 00:47:04.019
present day uh scenarios and kind of taking them

00:47:04.019 --> 00:47:08.719
to a to a characterized extreme um and then showing

00:47:08.719 --> 00:47:12.300
how christianity lived at that time or how it

00:47:12.300 --> 00:47:14.420
survived and the way that i'm structuring it

00:47:14.420 --> 00:47:17.179
it actually mirrors early christianity's rise

00:47:17.179 --> 00:47:21.659
um in the in the roman empire and so it's um

00:47:21.659 --> 00:47:25.219
it it takes it it follows it follows this group

00:47:25.219 --> 00:47:27.860
of christians that identified the last remaining

00:47:27.860 --> 00:47:31.329
bible um months before it gets purged and then

00:47:31.329 --> 00:47:33.329
all of christianity because it can't be proven

00:47:33.329 --> 00:47:36.429
so it's part of that thing that is um that is

00:47:36.429 --> 00:47:40.429
getting purged yeah exactly and their their story

00:47:40.429 --> 00:47:43.150
for how to uh how to revive the word and how

00:47:43.150 --> 00:47:46.750
how does this group of people live in this um

00:47:46.750 --> 00:47:50.340
hostile environment how are they living their

00:47:50.340 --> 00:47:52.440
faith and how are they containing their tradition

00:47:52.440 --> 00:47:56.039
and and the bottom line that i'm hoping of currently

00:47:56.039 --> 00:47:58.739
i'm doing it as a graphic novel the bottom line

00:47:58.739 --> 00:48:00.840
that i'm hoping to communicate with that with

00:48:00.840 --> 00:48:04.460
that work is if you are not taking specific actions

00:48:04.460 --> 00:48:08.000
today to learn your faith tell tell the story

00:48:08.000 --> 00:48:12.179
of your faith and live out your faith um explicitly

00:48:12.179 --> 00:48:15.380
and not compartmentalize it and just your weekend

00:48:15.380 --> 00:48:20.889
or or such um then then the faith is at at a

00:48:20.889 --> 00:48:23.690
risk but more so your life and your spiritual

00:48:23.690 --> 00:48:26.389
life is is at risk and there are implications

00:48:26.389 --> 00:48:29.909
for our children and and the future of the the

00:48:29.909 --> 00:48:34.949
church so when you say you wanted to do a film

00:48:34.949 --> 00:48:39.269
and you mentioned doing some audio uh what was

00:48:39.269 --> 00:48:42.389
how's the transition from just like a digital

00:48:42.389 --> 00:48:44.969
illustration now you're putting in audio adding

00:48:44.969 --> 00:48:49.920
another dimension yeah so And the transition

00:48:49.920 --> 00:48:54.920
between one medium to another is not hard in

00:48:54.920 --> 00:48:57.280
the way that if you have the core story, it doesn't

00:48:57.280 --> 00:48:59.019
matter what you're... You can do interpretive

00:48:59.019 --> 00:49:00.440
dance. You're telling... If you have the story

00:49:00.440 --> 00:49:03.219
down, you're... You could, but probably shouldn't.

00:49:03.219 --> 00:49:04.840
You could, but shouldn't. And it's not something

00:49:04.840 --> 00:49:06.440
that I'd be particularly good at. Would that

00:49:06.440 --> 00:49:08.519
be something maybe down the line for you? No,

00:49:08.519 --> 00:49:09.719
no. I don't think that's something we're going

00:49:09.719 --> 00:49:11.539
to explore. We're going to rule it out. Yeah.

00:49:13.619 --> 00:49:19.050
But... the the core of the story is there then

00:49:19.050 --> 00:49:21.090
it's easy to tell that same thing in whatever

00:49:21.090 --> 00:49:24.389
in whatever format the hard work comes into actually

00:49:24.389 --> 00:49:28.630
um sitting down writing that script or drawing

00:49:28.630 --> 00:49:32.530
the day -to -day a lot a lot of making these

00:49:32.530 --> 00:49:37.059
things come together comes in like showing up

00:49:37.059 --> 00:49:39.880
every day and it's really hard to carve out that

00:49:39.880 --> 00:49:43.000
time and even even now more so that that i have

00:49:43.000 --> 00:49:46.380
a baby daughter it's um it's it's hard and i

00:49:46.380 --> 00:49:48.780
have to be purposeful and at times actually at

00:49:48.780 --> 00:49:50.480
the end of every project and you can you can

00:49:50.480 --> 00:49:54.380
ask my wife my my entire family actively sacrifices

00:49:54.380 --> 00:49:57.139
to get these things out the door so when when

00:49:57.139 --> 00:50:00.059
there is a release i start sleeping later i can't

00:50:00.059 --> 00:50:02.800
help in the morning so my wife has to do more

00:50:02.800 --> 00:50:07.960
my my son has to forego an activity or two. All

00:50:07.960 --> 00:50:11.539
of us have to sacrifice to kind of put that thing,

00:50:11.679 --> 00:50:15.260
get that project to an end. And so I think the

00:50:15.260 --> 00:50:17.420
hard part isn't actually in taking a story and

00:50:17.420 --> 00:50:19.139
telling it in different formats. I think the

00:50:19.139 --> 00:50:22.579
hard part is show up and do that every day. And

00:50:22.579 --> 00:50:26.159
to me, oddly enough, I feel like the content

00:50:26.159 --> 00:50:28.539
actually helps me get through it where in some

00:50:28.539 --> 00:50:31.519
of the fathers, it's just water the tree. Show

00:50:31.519 --> 00:50:33.980
up and water the dead stick, like as in Abba

00:50:33.980 --> 00:50:36.280
John's life. And so I think a lot of these things,

00:50:36.340 --> 00:50:38.440
it's not about the grand, what's the great idea.

00:50:38.739 --> 00:50:41.039
Ideas are easy. Ideas are quick. Ideas come all

00:50:41.039 --> 00:50:44.099
the time. It's like, are you watering that dead

00:50:44.099 --> 00:50:46.860
stick without really, without having anything

00:50:46.860 --> 00:50:49.420
to show for it for six years, for two years,

00:50:49.460 --> 00:50:52.420
for whatever, how long a project takes? Are you

00:50:52.420 --> 00:50:54.579
showing up and doing that little bit of work

00:50:54.579 --> 00:50:57.949
to move it? forward kind of thing and you know

00:50:57.949 --> 00:51:00.730
having a family with young children it must be

00:51:00.730 --> 00:51:03.389
difficult of course to find that time and motivation

00:51:03.389 --> 00:51:06.369
any sort of time you're conflicted like do I

00:51:06.369 --> 00:51:09.909
spend time on this or with the kids and how much

00:51:09.909 --> 00:51:14.090
of this is for the people within the church and

00:51:14.090 --> 00:51:17.789
how much of it is consumed by people who are

00:51:17.789 --> 00:51:21.679
just like maybe seekers or people who are just

00:51:21.679 --> 00:51:24.699
getting exposed to the orthodox faith have you

00:51:24.699 --> 00:51:27.800
seen your work being used this way have you considered

00:51:27.800 --> 00:51:30.300
your work being as a sort of like a missionary

00:51:30.300 --> 00:51:33.679
tool or something using like missionary efforts

00:51:33.679 --> 00:51:37.019
absolutely and people have reached out in that

00:51:37.019 --> 00:51:40.760
capacity and such i try not to think about it

00:51:40.760 --> 00:51:43.960
it is so easy especially in the realm of social

00:51:43.960 --> 00:51:50.139
media um to first of all harm harm a ton of people

00:51:50.139 --> 00:51:55.559
but harm myself like it's so easy to just obsess

00:51:55.559 --> 00:51:58.460
about the wrong things and and i i have at times

00:51:58.460 --> 00:52:02.659
and that's why i i i try to put um i try to put

00:52:02.659 --> 00:52:05.099
guardrails for myself to kind of just stay within

00:52:05.099 --> 00:52:06.860
their own i'll just tell the story and nothing

00:52:06.860 --> 00:52:11.840
else matters um from how many people are watching

00:52:11.840 --> 00:52:14.800
this oh the funnier stuff gets a lot more engagement

00:52:14.800 --> 00:52:18.099
i should do more funny stuff um people like this

00:52:18.099 --> 00:52:19.840
don't really like that i should do more of this

00:52:19.840 --> 00:52:22.840
than that i should do more for converts rather

00:52:22.840 --> 00:52:26.380
than believers i try not to think about any of

00:52:26.380 --> 00:52:29.659
that some sometimes it's it screams at me and

00:52:29.659 --> 00:52:32.579
i it's just a very dangerous place it's also

00:52:32.579 --> 00:52:34.679
why i try not to use my first name last name

00:52:34.679 --> 00:52:38.139
so i don't trick myself into thinking that it's

00:52:38.139 --> 00:52:41.000
the person So I try to separate myself from the

00:52:41.000 --> 00:52:42.639
platform. That's funny. Sometimes people come

00:52:42.639 --> 00:52:44.840
after me. It's like you're being subversive on

00:52:44.840 --> 00:52:47.059
purpose. Like, why are you hiding? I'm trying

00:52:47.059 --> 00:52:51.159
to separate myself from it. Some sort of conspiracy

00:52:51.159 --> 00:52:53.980
theory. He's putting this stuff out there. Exactly.

00:52:55.599 --> 00:52:59.340
But I try as much as possible not to let myself

00:52:59.340 --> 00:53:02.260
get distracted with all of the things that an

00:53:02.260 --> 00:53:06.119
ego can feed off of on social media. So I don't

00:53:06.119 --> 00:53:08.219
think about it much. But I know for sure that

00:53:08.219 --> 00:53:12.280
the saints are the saints. Saint Anthony is going

00:53:12.280 --> 00:53:16.320
to continue drawing millions of people over the

00:53:16.320 --> 00:53:20.039
ages. It's Saint Anthony. His story, it's so

00:53:20.039 --> 00:53:23.880
funny. When you start looking into the history

00:53:23.880 --> 00:53:28.260
of Saint Anthony and how it started with Saint

00:53:28.260 --> 00:53:32.320
Athanasius writing the story in the early...

00:53:33.869 --> 00:53:37.909
Third century, late third century. And it caught

00:53:37.909 --> 00:53:41.449
like wildfire. Went to Europe and they did the

00:53:41.449 --> 00:53:45.530
Golden Legend. Caught like wildfire. You see

00:53:45.530 --> 00:53:47.869
St. Augustine. St. Augustine reads it and says,

00:53:47.989 --> 00:53:50.210
I am compelled. He uses the same words that we

00:53:50.210 --> 00:53:52.269
use today. That myself and my group of friends,

00:53:52.449 --> 00:53:54.769
we felt the same way. Like you read St. Augustine's

00:53:54.769 --> 00:53:57.929
reading of it. And that was shortly after. Same

00:53:57.929 --> 00:54:00.239
thing. and it doesn't matter ever since then

00:54:00.239 --> 00:54:03.159
till today the same story someone reads it oh

00:54:03.159 --> 00:54:06.639
my god what is in that story it's a story like

00:54:06.639 --> 00:54:08.880
any other story but for some reason this one

00:54:08.880 --> 00:54:12.400
stayed centuries this egyptian peasant in the

00:54:12.400 --> 00:54:14.760
middle of nowhere there is no reason why we should

00:54:14.760 --> 00:54:17.619
be talking about him today but we are yeah and

00:54:17.619 --> 00:54:20.239
so that's why i think it's not really about it's

00:54:20.239 --> 00:54:24.269
not really about the The vehicle, it's the content.

00:54:24.809 --> 00:54:27.710
The content itself is St. Anthony, St. Moses

00:54:27.710 --> 00:54:31.469
the Strong, St. Mary of Egypt. And I see the

00:54:31.469 --> 00:54:35.230
same thing with St. Macarius the Great in the

00:54:35.230 --> 00:54:40.710
intro to the 50s spiritual homilies about how

00:54:40.710 --> 00:54:48.579
his impact in post -reformation West is... great

00:54:48.579 --> 00:54:51.280
to the extent that there are some pastors who

00:54:51.280 --> 00:54:55.139
have memorized large chunks of these and again

00:54:55.139 --> 00:54:58.360
like in your mind you think like what does east

00:54:58.360 --> 00:55:00.460
have to do with west what does city have to do

00:55:00.460 --> 00:55:03.320
with desert but the connection is there and it

00:55:03.320 --> 00:55:07.039
deep it's much deeper you know than than just

00:55:07.039 --> 00:55:10.820
the words it's in a connection in the heart essentially

00:55:10.820 --> 00:55:16.050
and it draws people in but i wonder if the Elements

00:55:16.050 --> 00:55:18.389
you draw on obviously come from your own background,

00:55:18.469 --> 00:55:21.030
from your own tradition, growing up in a Coptic

00:55:21.030 --> 00:55:24.030
Orthodox church. Have you considered doing something,

00:55:24.110 --> 00:55:27.650
drawing on a different tradition? Elements from

00:55:27.650 --> 00:55:30.909
South America, from a different culture, essentially

00:55:30.909 --> 00:55:33.989
to do the same illustrations, to tell the same

00:55:33.989 --> 00:55:37.469
story, right? It has, absolutely. I've illustrated

00:55:37.469 --> 00:55:40.690
saints like St. Olga of Alaska, who was recently

00:55:40.690 --> 00:55:47.820
canonized in the Eastern Church. Saints like

00:55:47.820 --> 00:55:54.639
St. Morwina, who is a European saint. So absolutely.

00:55:56.219 --> 00:56:00.199
At the same time, I just feel who's going to

00:56:00.199 --> 00:56:02.239
tell their story? Who's going to tell the story

00:56:02.239 --> 00:56:07.880
of the cots? Right. And I feel such allegiance

00:56:07.880 --> 00:56:11.460
to the... The father of my father's father's

00:56:11.460 --> 00:56:17.480
father. I feel like for this small population

00:56:17.480 --> 00:56:20.360
of people, again, said that, lived centuries

00:56:20.360 --> 00:56:22.480
ago, have been persecuted their entire life.

00:56:22.699 --> 00:56:25.960
Our iconography completely wiped out under that

00:56:25.960 --> 00:56:29.699
persecution. Manuscripts gone with the different

00:56:29.699 --> 00:56:33.909
raids. Who's going to tell our story? But at

00:56:33.909 --> 00:56:38.030
the same time, again, in terms of the content

00:56:38.030 --> 00:56:41.389
that I choose to do, I go to the early centuries.

00:56:41.409 --> 00:56:44.070
If not, then if there's a recent Orthodox saint

00:56:44.070 --> 00:56:48.130
that their life touches my own, and I find that

00:56:48.130 --> 00:56:50.730
they fit within the paradigm of our beliefs and

00:56:50.730 --> 00:56:54.590
our church. Absolutely. There's no hard line

00:56:54.590 --> 00:56:58.449
in that way. And again, I do see an advantage

00:56:58.449 --> 00:57:01.349
to what I do is being outside of the paradigm

00:57:01.349 --> 00:57:04.969
of iconography for good reason. I mean, iconographers

00:57:04.969 --> 00:57:07.210
are great at what they do and they're necessary

00:57:07.210 --> 00:57:11.570
and credible for that specific place they fulfill.

00:57:11.869 --> 00:57:14.590
The same thing with me. in terms of those light

00:57:14.590 --> 00:57:18.130
illustration accessible and and it can it can

00:57:18.130 --> 00:57:20.409
veer on more contemporary saints older saints

00:57:20.409 --> 00:57:23.090
it's a it's a more nimble format and so i do

00:57:23.090 --> 00:57:25.610
play i if there is a if i feel like there's a

00:57:25.610 --> 00:57:27.989
story that needs selling there and a role for

00:57:27.989 --> 00:57:30.130
me to play i absolutely yeah more nimble there's

00:57:30.130 --> 00:57:33.110
more flexibility with you know with your medium

00:57:33.110 --> 00:57:36.829
right so now let's move into you know your magnus

00:57:36.829 --> 00:57:41.039
opal mirror uh anastasis how did that come about

00:57:41.039 --> 00:57:44.639
this was actually a two -month project two months

00:57:44.639 --> 00:57:47.380
wow yeah and it it was so fast that published

00:57:47.380 --> 00:57:52.940
before um saint john the short where it was just

00:57:52.940 --> 00:57:55.420
a year before the six year like the sixth year

00:57:55.420 --> 00:57:58.420
where i finished that work um the story i was

00:57:58.420 --> 00:58:01.199
told years and years ago by a dear friend of

00:58:01.199 --> 00:58:06.059
mine who told me this story of a play she saw

00:58:06.059 --> 00:58:09.150
in egypt And I promised her and I promised her

00:58:09.150 --> 00:58:11.690
husband I will illustrate this story. And then

00:58:11.690 --> 00:58:15.809
she passed away from cancer. And then years and

00:58:15.809 --> 00:58:18.389
years later into Creative Orthodox, it started

00:58:18.389 --> 00:58:23.030
gnawing at me. And so I got together with her

00:58:23.030 --> 00:58:28.550
husband, Deacon John, and he... And he managed

00:58:28.550 --> 00:58:30.969
to whip me into shape within two months to do

00:58:30.969 --> 00:58:34.570
it. It was this collaborative flowing work every

00:58:34.570 --> 00:58:37.989
night, sending drawings and then getting feedback,

00:58:38.269 --> 00:58:44.250
the script. I think we hit kind of a state of

00:58:44.250 --> 00:58:47.050
flow for the two months and then out came that

00:58:47.050 --> 00:58:51.110
work. But that story is the story of stories.

00:58:51.909 --> 00:58:54.710
We can talk for hours about just that story.

00:58:55.440 --> 00:58:58.099
It's funny because some people look at the descent

00:58:58.099 --> 00:59:01.820
and think, oh, this is just copying the same

00:59:01.820 --> 00:59:04.960
story that are in other cultures with Osiris,

00:59:04.980 --> 00:59:10.340
the god of the dead, and how he goes with Eurydice

00:59:10.340 --> 00:59:14.500
from the Greek, where Orpheus goes into the dead

00:59:14.500 --> 00:59:17.940
and brings her back. Every culture has this.

00:59:18.019 --> 00:59:21.079
But what people aren't seeing is that every culture...

00:59:21.480 --> 00:59:24.559
is trying and straining to tell the story of

00:59:24.559 --> 00:59:28.340
Christ's descent into Hades. And even when you

00:59:28.340 --> 00:59:31.059
take a look at narrative, the hero's journey,

00:59:31.219 --> 00:59:40.239
it is that story. Whenever I encounter the story

00:59:40.239 --> 00:59:43.480
of Christ's descent into Hades from even a slightly

00:59:43.480 --> 00:59:46.820
different angle, I get overtaken with so much

00:59:46.820 --> 00:59:50.809
emotion at how powerful. that story is it it's

00:59:50.809 --> 00:59:56.030
yeah and and i love i love saint macarius's commentary

00:59:56.030 --> 00:59:58.610
on it where he says when you read the story of

00:59:58.610 --> 01:00:00.869
the descent don't think that this is a tale that

01:00:00.869 --> 01:00:03.789
happened thousands of years ago christ is descending

01:00:03.789 --> 01:00:07.230
into your heart if you let him and he will harrow

01:00:07.230 --> 01:00:09.969
the hades of your heart and that to me again

01:00:09.969 --> 01:00:12.349
like you can experience the story as as this

01:00:12.349 --> 01:00:16.860
um As the story that transcends culture, it is

01:00:16.860 --> 01:00:20.139
all of humanity. It includes the patriarchs.

01:00:20.139 --> 01:00:22.460
And then you pause and you start looking at what

01:00:22.460 --> 01:00:23.840
the church is trying to tell you. And you're

01:00:23.840 --> 01:00:29.420
like, wait a minute. Hades is my heart. The darkness

01:00:29.420 --> 01:00:33.900
that I'm in is me. And Christ comes into that

01:00:33.900 --> 01:00:39.360
darkness. and raises and extends his hand and

01:00:39.360 --> 01:00:43.280
I grasp it. It's funny, I do come bearing gifts.

01:00:43.340 --> 01:00:47.300
I brought you one of the Prince of St. Anthony.

01:00:47.579 --> 01:00:53.460
And that sort of, that was the summation of the

01:00:53.460 --> 01:00:56.960
documentary work on St. Anthony. But for me...

01:00:57.210 --> 01:00:59.650
thinking of the story of Antony being fought

01:00:59.650 --> 01:01:03.510
by, actually beaten by the demons and him at

01:01:03.510 --> 01:01:06.010
his lowest point, it tells you that he started

01:01:06.010 --> 01:01:09.010
seeing Christ as a light and then he had that

01:01:09.010 --> 01:01:11.289
moment. And to me, it's exactly that moment of

01:01:11.289 --> 01:01:13.909
Anastasis. He's experiencing Christ's descent

01:01:13.909 --> 01:01:17.389
into Hades and Christ raises him like Adam. And

01:01:17.389 --> 01:01:20.309
to me, that moment of Christ raising the fallen

01:01:20.309 --> 01:01:25.940
like Adam is a big part. It is a big point of

01:01:25.940 --> 01:01:28.179
spiritual transformation. Right. And so I think

01:01:28.179 --> 01:01:30.679
that's, again, the personal part of it, the part

01:01:30.679 --> 01:01:35.199
that really hits home for me is that the human

01:01:35.199 --> 01:01:39.300
heart and how... And St. Macarius is all about

01:01:39.300 --> 01:01:41.559
the heart. The heart is where everything happens.

01:01:41.960 --> 01:01:43.920
The dragons are there, the angels are there,

01:01:43.960 --> 01:01:46.119
the fights, everything is happening in the heart.

01:01:46.619 --> 01:01:51.159
And to speak to the flexibility of your medium,

01:01:51.980 --> 01:01:56.219
you know this motif is applied like perfectly

01:01:56.219 --> 01:01:59.940
with saint anthony we we only see this you know

01:01:59.940 --> 01:02:03.860
in an iconography uh with adam and eve and and

01:02:03.860 --> 01:02:06.039
how you use that and apply that and took it and

01:02:06.039 --> 01:02:08.539
and incorporated in the story of saint anthony

01:02:08.539 --> 01:02:14.219
right and at the same time saint micarius's words

01:02:14.219 --> 01:02:16.840
are like the whole universe is in our heart right

01:02:16.840 --> 01:02:19.420
like we're on the microcosm like everything is

01:02:19.420 --> 01:02:22.840
happening there and it doesn't take away from

01:02:22.840 --> 01:02:25.360
the story that all of these things happen on

01:02:25.360 --> 01:02:26.920
a different level but at the same time they're

01:02:26.920 --> 01:02:29.280
still happening in your heart that christ is

01:02:29.280 --> 01:02:31.840
descending to the depth of your heart and raising

01:02:31.840 --> 01:02:35.480
you know your your dead soul from the depth of

01:02:35.480 --> 01:02:39.380
hades from the chains and and and setting you

01:02:39.380 --> 01:02:41.889
free and Then breaking down all those chains.

01:02:42.710 --> 01:02:47.769
So Anastasis, it's a beautiful story, beautifully

01:02:47.769 --> 01:02:50.750
illustrated. There's different kinds of illustrations.

01:02:51.150 --> 01:02:55.829
There are things there that are, you know, like

01:02:55.829 --> 01:03:00.949
conversational. And then you go into like different

01:03:00.949 --> 01:03:03.510
kinds of illustrations. How did you bring all

01:03:03.510 --> 01:03:07.230
this together? Yeah, so it started with the manuscript.

01:03:07.489 --> 01:03:10.539
This one is... chiefly from the Gospel of Nicodemus,

01:03:10.659 --> 01:03:14.440
not to say that that specific piece of work is

01:03:14.440 --> 01:03:18.619
100 % accepted and it's not 100 % right, but

01:03:18.619 --> 01:03:22.519
the fact that it's there and so many of our fathers

01:03:22.519 --> 01:03:25.480
corroborate the same language, the same story,

01:03:25.599 --> 01:03:28.000
it tells that there is a source for these things,

01:03:28.139 --> 01:03:31.280
that there is a very early tradition for that

01:03:31.280 --> 01:03:39.110
story. And so I had to be careful with... adding

01:03:39.110 --> 01:03:41.769
visuals to that. I had to make a lot of decisions.

01:03:42.130 --> 01:03:46.170
Even while the graphic novel seven years ago

01:03:46.170 --> 01:03:49.130
was the start of it, but recently, a few months

01:03:49.130 --> 01:03:53.369
ago, I made it into an audio drama. And so even

01:03:53.369 --> 01:03:56.570
when we translated it to the audio format, we

01:03:56.570 --> 01:04:00.230
had to have really interesting questions around,

01:04:00.349 --> 01:04:06.159
okay, so Hades, are people in anguish? are the

01:04:06.159 --> 01:04:09.059
good is there there is a separation between the

01:04:09.059 --> 01:04:12.179
good and the bad are the bad people being tortured

01:04:12.179 --> 01:04:16.719
do they their spirits are they feeling that torture

01:04:16.719 --> 01:04:20.079
do they walk around do they have so many questions

01:04:20.079 --> 01:04:22.099
that you now have to answer because you're putting

01:04:22.099 --> 01:04:25.440
it in a narrative format right and there is i'd

01:04:25.440 --> 01:04:27.360
say the easy way out which is kind of taking

01:04:27.360 --> 01:04:30.489
a look at all the interpretations by the european

01:04:30.489 --> 01:04:33.550
artists the medieval artists but there's so much

01:04:33.550 --> 01:04:35.510
noise that happened in these and there's a lot

01:04:35.510 --> 01:04:37.369
of the imagination that goes into that right

01:04:37.369 --> 01:04:39.469
exactly and the harrowing of hades specifically

01:04:39.469 --> 01:04:45.389
artists loved it because of how um how how vivid

01:04:45.389 --> 01:04:47.349
of a story it is and it allows them to like do

01:04:47.349 --> 01:04:49.570
whatever they want license just do yeah exactly

01:04:49.570 --> 01:04:52.610
as imaginative as creative as you can Absolutely.

01:04:52.610 --> 01:04:56.349
You have Dante's Inferno, another piece of work

01:04:56.349 --> 01:05:02.329
structured around the story of the descent. But

01:05:02.329 --> 01:05:06.750
I had to be very careful. I didn't want to put

01:05:06.750 --> 01:05:08.989
too much of an interpretation. And that's why

01:05:08.989 --> 01:05:11.150
actually I look back at that book and I see it

01:05:11.150 --> 01:05:12.909
kind of empty. Like when you look at behind,

01:05:13.090 --> 01:05:14.989
like in the back of the panels, the backgrounds.

01:05:15.849 --> 01:05:18.250
It's actually kind of sparse. I didn't really

01:05:18.250 --> 01:05:21.010
put too much form to Hades. In the audio format,

01:05:21.150 --> 01:05:22.909
I tried to add a little bit with the screams

01:05:22.909 --> 01:05:26.769
and such to kind of paint a picture. But generally,

01:05:26.789 --> 01:05:29.769
I was just very careful not to make assumptions.

01:05:30.530 --> 01:05:32.929
But then some of the fathers actually got creative

01:05:32.929 --> 01:05:35.510
with the story. You have Santa Fran, who has

01:05:35.510 --> 01:05:41.090
hilarious poems where the devil and death personified

01:05:41.090 --> 01:05:43.590
are having the conversation. And it's such a

01:05:43.590 --> 01:05:46.260
funny conversation where death is like, Listen,

01:05:46.320 --> 01:05:48.059
I trusted you. Are you sure this isn't Jesus?

01:05:48.400 --> 01:05:51.699
And Satan is like, 100%. This is not Jesus. I

01:05:51.699 --> 01:05:55.519
saw him. I tempted him. He bleeds. There's no

01:05:55.519 --> 01:05:58.199
problem. And then death is like, Satan, you're

01:05:58.199 --> 01:06:00.519
easily tricked. And then Satan's like, death,

01:06:00.619 --> 01:06:04.820
you're just a brute. You're a blunt instrument.

01:06:04.980 --> 01:06:07.019
You're not cunning. And so this back and forth.

01:06:07.449 --> 01:06:09.550
and it's incredibly creative and it's from one

01:06:09.550 --> 01:06:11.690
of the fathers so i took that and then made it

01:06:11.690 --> 01:06:13.630
again both into the audio drama and the graphic

01:06:13.630 --> 01:06:17.909
novel um and so wherever i tried to put that

01:06:17.909 --> 01:06:22.530
to to kind of illustrate that world i tried not

01:06:22.530 --> 01:06:26.170
to veer too much from existing um existing manuscripts

01:06:26.170 --> 01:06:28.289
and media you don't want to go too much into

01:06:28.289 --> 01:06:30.710
like speculative theology and go beyond right

01:06:30.710 --> 01:06:36.860
but again like because of how you tell your story

01:06:36.860 --> 01:06:39.480
the medium kind of affords you a bit of flexibility

01:06:39.480 --> 01:06:42.900
in how you tell it and gives you the ability

01:06:42.900 --> 01:06:45.760
kind of to go and you know focus in as much as

01:06:45.760 --> 01:06:49.699
you want or zoom out and put as much detail or

01:06:49.699 --> 01:06:53.360
as little as you want and at the end of the day

01:06:53.360 --> 01:06:57.579
the story is doing what it's supposed to do like

01:06:57.579 --> 01:07:01.389
it's drawing you in it's taking you into what's

01:07:01.389 --> 01:07:04.349
into the events right and the nature of that

01:07:04.349 --> 01:07:06.730
story too it's sort of it's kind of like the

01:07:06.730 --> 01:07:10.429
avengers of biblical stories except it's true

01:07:10.429 --> 01:07:14.489
it's truth but when you start hearing of what

01:07:14.489 --> 01:07:17.869
happened with these um saints what about the

01:07:17.869 --> 01:07:20.309
prophets king david he wrote the songs he did

01:07:20.309 --> 01:07:23.050
this he did that he's in hades And then what

01:07:23.050 --> 01:07:25.170
is he thinking? He wrote all of these things.

01:07:25.309 --> 01:07:27.530
They have prophecies. What are they thinking?

01:07:27.710 --> 01:07:29.769
And it's so incredible to think, oh, we're sitting

01:07:29.769 --> 01:07:32.929
in darkness. We've been waiting for so many years,

01:07:32.949 --> 01:07:35.889
kind of like us living our life. And we've been

01:07:35.889 --> 01:07:39.579
waiting and we're done. like god hasn't really

01:07:39.579 --> 01:07:42.599
come and appeared and and whatever where is the

01:07:42.599 --> 01:07:44.920
salvation we were promised we're in hades this

01:07:44.920 --> 01:07:47.619
is not how is this a loving god and then someone

01:07:47.619 --> 01:07:49.599
comes and it's like oh i saw the messiah another

01:07:49.599 --> 01:07:51.820
person comes saying john the forerunner he was

01:07:51.820 --> 01:07:53.480
the forerunner on earth he is the forerunner

01:07:53.480 --> 01:07:55.639
in hades goes and he's like there's one coming

01:07:55.639 --> 01:07:58.800
after me and so taking these stories it is actually

01:07:58.800 --> 01:08:01.199
like the avengers it has these incredible characters

01:08:01.199 --> 01:08:03.880
that we know and we we grow up learning about

01:08:03.880 --> 01:08:06.639
learning their stories moses david and then just

01:08:07.000 --> 01:08:09.019
thinking and trying to continue their story to

01:08:09.019 --> 01:08:12.239
say, okay, well, how are they dealing with this?

01:08:12.539 --> 01:08:16.020
And then, oh goodness, the moment where Christ...

01:08:16.350 --> 01:08:19.050
goes down and descends into hades this place

01:08:19.050 --> 01:08:21.569
of darkness and i love the way that our church

01:08:21.569 --> 01:08:24.930
again the the church being an incredible storyteller

01:08:24.930 --> 01:08:28.770
um christ trampling death by death and and for

01:08:28.770 --> 01:08:31.510
those in the tombs bestowing life he shattered

01:08:31.510 --> 01:08:35.229
the iron gates even the both in the eastern church

01:08:35.229 --> 01:08:38.329
and and and now we do it as well like the the

01:08:38.329 --> 01:08:42.010
drama um but more so the the patristic reflection

01:08:42.010 --> 01:08:45.210
of that story it's such a it's such a strong

01:08:45.710 --> 01:08:48.350
victorious reflection of the story of christ

01:08:48.350 --> 01:08:51.869
that i think it just takes that story and and

01:08:51.869 --> 01:08:55.069
no matter how it's told i i think that that tale

01:08:55.069 --> 01:08:57.449
kind of it's this it really is the story of stories

01:08:57.449 --> 01:09:00.270
but a little a little bit that i actually want

01:09:00.270 --> 01:09:03.289
to make obvious and bring to the forefront is

01:09:03.289 --> 01:09:07.029
i was careful to continue drawing christ not

01:09:07.029 --> 01:09:11.130
just as a victor but as a wounded a wounded christ

01:09:11.130 --> 01:09:15.609
and Um, I, I even corrected that further in the

01:09:15.609 --> 01:09:19.250
audio drama where Eve sees our mother, Eve sees

01:09:19.250 --> 01:09:21.689
him and she says like, like you're, what have

01:09:21.689 --> 01:09:24.210
they done to you? My son and my Lord, like they

01:09:24.210 --> 01:09:27.399
bruised you, they, they scourged you. what what

01:09:27.399 --> 01:09:30.279
happened and i i think this is a healthier and

01:09:30.279 --> 01:09:32.119
that's the kind of the the way that the church

01:09:32.119 --> 01:09:34.720
likes to look at atonement it's not just this

01:09:34.720 --> 01:09:38.140
victorious superhero coming down and destroying

01:09:38.140 --> 01:09:41.800
everything the it's it's the wounded christ our

01:09:41.800 --> 01:09:45.420
victory is through the sacrifice and so i didn't

01:09:45.420 --> 01:09:47.720
want to lose the sacrifice too much they don't

01:09:47.720 --> 01:09:50.539
want the comic book medium to kind of it's funny

01:09:50.539 --> 01:09:52.159
there are parallel stories in superman where

01:09:52.159 --> 01:09:55.130
he's almost you know dying and dead and such

01:09:55.130 --> 01:09:57.489
and through his death he goes near the sun gets

01:09:57.489 --> 01:10:01.789
empowered and that's but it's not that it's it's

01:10:01.789 --> 01:10:04.949
victory through brokenness victory through sacrifice

01:10:04.949 --> 01:10:07.270
and through his death and so i wanted to keep

01:10:07.270 --> 01:10:09.670
a little bit of that and i'm actually starting

01:10:09.670 --> 01:10:15.180
the process of working on a deluxe whatever it

01:10:15.180 --> 01:10:17.760
is version of the graphic novel where i take

01:10:17.760 --> 01:10:21.100
the redone script for the audio drama and kind

01:10:21.100 --> 01:10:24.859
of bolster the original graphic novel and reprint

01:10:24.859 --> 01:10:28.260
it reprint it do volume printing instead because

01:10:28.260 --> 01:10:31.199
right now it's print on demand which as a self

01:10:31.199 --> 01:10:33.140
-published author it's the way to make it available

01:10:33.140 --> 01:10:36.399
cheaply but you'll see that the ink is faded

01:10:36.399 --> 01:10:39.180
the print the paper isn't great so not the same

01:10:39.180 --> 01:10:41.859
quality exactly so i want to give that book new

01:10:41.859 --> 01:10:45.260
life but also take that redone script and it's

01:10:45.260 --> 01:10:47.460
actually very different than like if you listen

01:10:47.460 --> 01:10:50.100
to the audio drama it's a very different script

01:10:50.100 --> 01:10:53.460
than the than the graphic novel and i want to

01:10:53.460 --> 01:10:55.159
bring that back to the graphic novel and make

01:10:55.159 --> 01:10:58.840
sure i i believe it's a stronger story so did

01:10:58.840 --> 01:11:01.100
that take you longer to kind of put together

01:11:01.100 --> 01:11:05.279
in terms of script and planning no i most of

01:11:05.279 --> 01:11:08.319
my projects take years to think about and then

01:11:09.069 --> 01:11:12.590
I put immense pressure on myself, on my family

01:11:12.590 --> 01:11:14.350
and everyone around me and just get it done in

01:11:14.350 --> 01:11:17.210
several months. It's the way that I work. I work

01:11:17.210 --> 01:11:19.090
really well under pressure and almost not at

01:11:19.090 --> 01:11:22.289
all without the pressure. And so this is usually

01:11:22.289 --> 01:11:25.310
how it happens. It's thinking Easter and then

01:11:25.310 --> 01:11:27.390
being Easter six weeks away. I need to reach

01:11:27.390 --> 01:11:30.170
out to voice actors, that kind of thing. And

01:11:30.170 --> 01:11:33.689
then finally, you know, a few days or a few weeks

01:11:33.689 --> 01:11:36.210
and then, you know, everything starts action.

01:11:37.339 --> 01:11:40.119
The illustration that you have, if you were to

01:11:40.119 --> 01:11:44.760
say how much of it is from extra biblical sources,

01:11:44.800 --> 01:11:47.500
like you mentioned the Gospel of Nicodemus. What

01:11:47.500 --> 01:11:49.680
kind of elements did you choose to include and

01:11:49.680 --> 01:11:52.939
how did you make that choice? So at the end of

01:11:52.939 --> 01:11:55.399
the book, there's a page with all the references.

01:11:56.520 --> 01:12:02.079
I would go to say almost 80 % of every word in

01:12:02.079 --> 01:12:04.979
that book is sourced from a patristic source.

01:12:06.190 --> 01:12:08.949
Which is really impressive given that sometimes

01:12:08.949 --> 01:12:17.010
it sounds so casual and conversational. That's

01:12:17.010 --> 01:12:19.770
Santa Fran. And I love that. I feel like younger

01:12:19.770 --> 01:12:23.630
me would have loved that. I wasn't one to sit

01:12:23.630 --> 01:12:25.390
down and read the manuscripts and read the poetry

01:12:25.390 --> 01:12:27.189
Santa Fran. I would have just read the comic

01:12:27.189 --> 01:12:29.909
book and loved it and consumed it. And to think

01:12:29.909 --> 01:12:32.619
that... Making the fathers conversational is

01:12:32.619 --> 01:12:35.159
definitely a plus. Exactly. And you would have

01:12:35.159 --> 01:12:40.819
no idea. And even near the end, in the narration,

01:12:40.899 --> 01:12:43.739
it says Christ became the first fruit and he

01:12:43.739 --> 01:12:46.819
became the door. These are the words of Saint

01:12:46.819 --> 01:12:49.159
Cyril. You're reading a comic book, it's fitting,

01:12:49.300 --> 01:12:51.300
it's flowing, and it's the words of Saint Cyril.

01:12:51.359 --> 01:12:53.520
And I think I would have loved to give younger

01:12:53.520 --> 01:12:59.000
me that gift of having... access to these manuscripts

01:12:59.000 --> 01:13:02.579
in a way that engaged me because i i love i love

01:13:02.579 --> 01:13:04.260
i've always loved stories i would have loved

01:13:04.260 --> 01:13:06.640
to have something like this that let me into

01:13:06.640 --> 01:13:08.899
the wealth of the fathers without the challenge

01:13:08.899 --> 01:13:11.100
of of having to read something that was written

01:13:11.100 --> 01:13:13.819
for an audience in like hundreds of years ago

01:13:13.819 --> 01:13:16.680
right in in a way that you're not accustomed

01:13:16.680 --> 01:13:19.439
to you're not used to like trained in a different

01:13:19.439 --> 01:13:22.260
way of thinking and that's beautiful and how

01:13:22.260 --> 01:13:24.520
did you structure that composition to like the

01:13:24.520 --> 01:13:28.109
actual illustrations like I'm very visual and

01:13:28.109 --> 01:13:31.270
I'm very obsessive. And so when there's a story,

01:13:31.409 --> 01:13:35.189
I usually watch it or continue experiencing it.

01:13:35.630 --> 01:13:38.710
for a long time before i put pen to paper and

01:13:38.710 --> 01:13:41.710
so it's the same i've watched this the the film

01:13:41.710 --> 01:13:43.789
of saint moses the strong in my head for years

01:13:43.789 --> 01:13:47.329
same with anastasis it's just i kind of do the

01:13:47.329 --> 01:13:50.069
research and start piecing it together in my

01:13:50.069 --> 01:13:52.430
mind in the way that i want to watch it in an

01:13:52.430 --> 01:13:55.909
exciting way and then i start um i do start with

01:13:55.909 --> 01:13:58.029
the script with saint john the short i actually

01:13:58.029 --> 01:13:59.909
started drawing right away i feel like that was

01:13:59.909 --> 01:14:03.270
my inexperience at the time um whereas i was

01:14:03.270 --> 01:14:05.470
writing and drawing the pages as they're going

01:14:05.470 --> 01:14:08.369
uh and that's saint john yeah saint john and

01:14:08.369 --> 01:14:10.609
i had to do go back and do a lot of rework because

01:14:10.609 --> 01:14:13.810
it didn't fit right now my process is to start

01:14:13.810 --> 01:14:20.050
with story and story story is easy to learn Like

01:14:20.050 --> 01:14:23.890
there are rules of story where, yeah. And it's

01:14:23.890 --> 01:14:26.289
the same thing in visuals where contrast is really

01:14:26.289 --> 01:14:29.050
important. That's why you were gravitating towards

01:14:29.050 --> 01:14:32.210
the image of St. Anthony in the middle because

01:14:32.210 --> 01:14:33.949
he's contrasting with everything else. There's

01:14:33.949 --> 01:14:36.829
a bit of space between him and everything else.

01:14:36.930 --> 01:14:39.210
Same thing with the audio drama, same thing with

01:14:39.210 --> 01:14:41.989
the graphic novel. I try to, if I put up a big

01:14:41.989 --> 01:14:44.109
paragraph and it's a bit of a heavier thing,

01:14:44.250 --> 01:14:48.329
I try to contrast it with like action or a lighter

01:14:48.329 --> 01:14:51.029
sentence. right after to kind of give it room

01:14:51.029 --> 01:14:53.909
to breathe so that's how I kind of figure figure

01:14:53.909 --> 01:14:57.250
out pacing and such and then it's the same process

01:14:57.250 --> 01:15:01.770
of editing over and over again trying to just

01:15:01.770 --> 01:15:04.789
like like putting on different hats it's funny

01:15:04.789 --> 01:15:06.390
because there's a way of teaching it in art where

01:15:06.390 --> 01:15:08.500
you literally make different different eyeglasses

01:15:08.500 --> 01:15:12.119
and title them differently to be like composition

01:15:12.119 --> 01:15:14.479
glasses and actually to teach yourself you put

01:15:14.479 --> 01:15:16.899
on the different glasses and and look at your

01:15:16.899 --> 01:15:18.739
work from that different perspective and that

01:15:18.739 --> 01:15:21.399
perspective only like not to get lost in all

01:15:21.399 --> 01:15:23.340
the different applications and so that's what

01:15:23.340 --> 01:15:26.539
i did to say okay well is your theme coming through

01:15:26.539 --> 01:15:30.479
is is your what about the emotion yes a lot of

01:15:30.479 --> 01:15:32.779
things i adjusted were came from that place of

01:15:32.779 --> 01:15:36.990
thinking um you started the story with isaiah

01:15:36.990 --> 01:15:39.770
and you have king david coming here and then

01:15:39.770 --> 01:15:41.310
you ended with christ coming down and that's

01:15:41.310 --> 01:15:43.989
it where is the rest of their story you need

01:15:43.989 --> 01:15:46.869
to finish their arcs and so a lot of that stuff

01:15:46.869 --> 01:15:50.109
i came back and and redid it from that angle

01:15:50.109 --> 01:15:52.689
of okay let's edit it with that in mind this

01:15:52.689 --> 01:15:56.729
in mind um and then yeah then if it's a if it's

01:15:56.729 --> 01:15:59.170
in a visual format that's when i start sketching

01:15:59.170 --> 01:16:01.550
little thumbnails and then from that i start

01:16:01.550 --> 01:16:04.189
drawing the bigger the bigger pieces and and

01:16:04.189 --> 01:16:06.800
getting it getting it done that way wow that's

01:16:06.800 --> 01:16:09.279
beautiful i respect how much effort you put into

01:16:09.279 --> 01:16:12.020
making sure that the way you're telling this

01:16:12.020 --> 01:16:14.520
you're not being carried away like you're very

01:16:14.520 --> 01:16:17.659
careful illustrator you're very careful storyteller

01:16:17.659 --> 01:16:21.819
like you take your work with a lot of responsibility

01:16:21.819 --> 01:16:24.279
that this is something that's going to influence

01:16:24.279 --> 01:16:26.359
the thinking and the faith of someone who's going

01:16:26.359 --> 01:16:29.279
to read this and i want to make sure i'm on the

01:16:29.279 --> 01:16:31.859
right track you know cross my t's and dot my

01:16:31.859 --> 01:16:35.529
eyes and make sure that what i'm saying fits

01:16:35.529 --> 01:16:37.609
there's so much room for error with this stuff

01:16:37.609 --> 01:16:40.710
it is especially with such a like an illustrative

01:16:40.710 --> 01:16:45.109
or uh interpretive medium right like it's a lot

01:16:45.109 --> 01:16:48.069
of it is with the reader yep right the second

01:16:48.069 --> 01:16:50.609
you're done the piece out of your hand piece

01:16:50.609 --> 01:16:52.909
of work is not even yours it's the readers you

01:16:52.909 --> 01:16:57.369
have very little control of any right yeah yeah

01:16:57.369 --> 01:17:02.930
and um with that i mean you're in the same kind

01:17:02.930 --> 01:17:08.029
of ballpark as the iconographer because you you

01:17:08.029 --> 01:17:10.329
produce something you make something and then

01:17:10.329 --> 01:17:15.430
you step back and it's the the person the worshiper

01:17:15.430 --> 01:17:20.390
who approaches the icon and the icon is used

01:17:20.390 --> 01:17:24.210
in prayer in worship it's used along with other

01:17:24.210 --> 01:17:27.909
icons it's used along you know with the hymns

01:17:27.909 --> 01:17:32.069
it's like it has its place in the liturgical

01:17:33.069 --> 01:17:37.409
space right and i think that digital illustration

01:17:37.409 --> 01:17:40.930
it's got so much potential it's able to step

01:17:40.930 --> 01:17:43.829
in all of these different places right it's accessible

01:17:43.829 --> 01:17:46.510
it's very accessible right like someone can pick

01:17:46.510 --> 01:17:49.970
this up who is not theologically trained who's

01:17:49.970 --> 01:17:51.909
not very familiar with the stories of the saints

01:17:51.909 --> 01:17:54.329
of the background with the tradition and be able

01:17:54.329 --> 01:17:59.109
to pick up like 80 90 percent of what you're

01:17:59.109 --> 01:18:04.810
trying to say in a way you want it to be told

01:18:04.810 --> 01:18:07.710
right or understood and that's why it's such

01:18:07.710 --> 01:18:11.329
a powerful media and i um i know of another digital

01:18:11.329 --> 01:18:14.970
illustrator his name is mina uh mina anton i

01:18:14.970 --> 01:18:18.510
believe but his work and his style very unique

01:18:18.510 --> 01:18:23.859
and definitely uh different than yours He also

01:18:23.859 --> 01:18:26.539
combines elements, but I feel like the storytelling

01:18:26.539 --> 01:18:30.340
that approach that where you come from, what

01:18:30.340 --> 01:18:34.039
you bring is something that has all this potential.

01:18:34.079 --> 01:18:37.819
And, you know, I'm looking forward to more work

01:18:37.819 --> 01:18:41.819
from you and to see what else your mind produces.

01:18:42.079 --> 01:18:46.399
And, you know, I remember every week I would

01:18:46.399 --> 01:18:49.319
have to go to like the newsstand. in Alexandria

01:18:49.319 --> 01:18:51.979
and just pick up the latest comic book. It's

01:18:51.979 --> 01:18:55.800
not even a question of... To me, it was more

01:18:55.800 --> 01:18:58.520
important than food. My parents would tell me,

01:18:58.539 --> 01:19:00.520
would you rather have this or food? I'm like,

01:19:00.579 --> 01:19:08.859
no, this. And the reason this was the case is

01:19:08.859 --> 01:19:12.640
because I was able to connect with it and I was

01:19:12.640 --> 01:19:17.670
able to... The ideas that it portrayed... It

01:19:17.670 --> 01:19:21.090
made sense to me, right? Even though, you know,

01:19:21.109 --> 01:19:23.090
I didn't know what the illustrator was. I didn't

01:19:23.090 --> 01:19:24.729
know who the storyteller was. I didn't know anything

01:19:24.729 --> 01:19:27.470
about the storyteller, but it's such a powerful

01:19:27.470 --> 01:19:31.310
medium that it was so effective and I just, I

01:19:31.310 --> 01:19:36.609
had to have it. Today, we have a lot more offerings.

01:19:36.689 --> 01:19:39.890
We have, you know, a lot of digital stuff out

01:19:39.890 --> 01:19:41.949
there. A lot of, like you mentioned before, a

01:19:41.949 --> 01:19:44.710
lot of noise. And with something like this coming

01:19:44.710 --> 01:19:48.649
along, kind of like, A voice in the wilderness

01:19:48.649 --> 01:19:51.270
and just there's all this stuff coming along

01:19:51.270 --> 01:19:53.250
and all this stuff happening and all these things

01:19:53.250 --> 01:19:56.489
bombarding us and our children and our youth.

01:19:56.869 --> 01:20:01.630
What I want to see is more of this kind of presence

01:20:01.630 --> 01:20:06.470
of these kind of stories on our bookshelves,

01:20:06.550 --> 01:20:10.430
you know, in our homes, in our bookstores, because

01:20:10.430 --> 01:20:12.949
where you might have, you know, kind of like

01:20:12.949 --> 01:20:17.619
an obstacle reading from reading San Siro. this

01:20:17.619 --> 01:20:20.479
is very accessible this makes it so that anyone

01:20:20.479 --> 01:20:23.260
from anywhere can pick it up and just understand

01:20:23.260 --> 01:20:25.319
what's being said what they're trying to say

01:20:25.319 --> 01:20:27.739
and on that note i really want to thank you for

01:20:27.739 --> 01:20:31.739
your time and i want to encourage everyone uh

01:20:31.739 --> 01:20:35.560
if you are interested in following michael's

01:20:35.560 --> 01:20:38.680
work it's creativeorthodox .com pick up a copy

01:20:38.680 --> 01:20:42.619
for yourself it's available on amazon and be

01:20:42.619 --> 01:20:45.859
on the lookout for his upcoming works be following

01:20:45.859 --> 01:20:48.119
your work with great interest and it's i've been

01:20:48.119 --> 01:20:50.680
following it for a while and please keep up the

01:20:50.680 --> 01:20:52.840
great work thank you so much for the encouragement

01:20:52.840 --> 01:20:56.000
abuna and thank you so much for having me i guess

01:20:56.000 --> 01:20:58.520
an extension of that is if you draw if you write

01:20:58.520 --> 01:21:01.640
if you make music then go and draw and write

01:21:01.640 --> 01:21:04.399
and make music you don't need to be good at it

01:21:04.399 --> 01:21:06.659
you don't it's it's if you have these stories

01:21:06.659 --> 01:21:08.619
if you're raised on these stories if you find

01:21:08.619 --> 01:21:12.619
these stories We need people to tell them in

01:21:12.619 --> 01:21:14.939
the faith without St. Athanasius sitting down

01:21:14.939 --> 01:21:18.140
to write, without Zacharias sitting down to write

01:21:18.140 --> 01:21:21.960
the story, without the iconographers in the caves.

01:21:22.779 --> 01:21:25.340
sitting down to draw these drawings that they

01:21:25.340 --> 01:21:28.340
were almost sure no one is going to see we wouldn't

01:21:28.340 --> 01:21:30.819
have had these stories and so if you're anywhere

01:21:30.819 --> 01:21:34.100
close to to that that creative realm in the realm

01:21:34.100 --> 01:21:36.720
of storytelling pick up the pen or go to your

01:21:36.720 --> 01:21:40.079
computer any means necessary start start telling

01:21:40.079 --> 01:21:42.020
these stories because that's the way that our

01:21:42.020 --> 01:21:45.060
church has lived and that's the way that the

01:21:45.060 --> 01:21:47.880
spirit talks to us and that's the way that we

01:21:47.880 --> 01:21:51.810
pass down the faith I hope you enjoyed listening

01:21:51.810 --> 01:21:54.649
to this episode for questions, comments, feedback,

01:21:54.829 --> 01:21:57.270
or if you'd like to make a suggestion on a topic

01:21:57.270 --> 01:21:59.550
for a future episode, please feel free to reach

01:21:59.550 --> 01:22:01.630
out to the email in the bio. And don't forget

01:22:01.630 --> 01:22:04.210
to subscribe to get a notification when new episodes

01:22:04.210 --> 01:22:06.649
drop. God bless you and have a great day.