And I think everyone, everyone should have the
same drive. If you're able to tell a story and
you know these stories of the faith, it is your
duty to tell that story. Because if you didn't,
then these stories might die. And that's where
you have things like people specifically, like
Abba Pavnotius was led by the Spirit specifically
to go in the desert, take down and write down
the stories of the saints. And that's how we
know the story of Abba Nofer. the anchorite so
it's like if these people who are writers like
like let's not view them in that shell of a saint
who are writers painters artists the ones who
painted the walls and frescoes in the monasteries
if these people chose not to tell stories we
would have had a huge huge gaps in our in our
in our tradition huge gaps in in the beautiful
tapestry that is Coptic orthodoxy. And so that's
the way that I view it. I don't so much view
it as, oh, there's social media. Let's do something
cool there. Let's have an account. Let's run
it. Let's make pictures. I just view it as the
church itself and our faith is story. And if
I can, and I love this stuff and I enjoy it,
that's my hobby. I will tell these stories. Hello,
everyone. This is Father Paul, and I hope you're
having a good day. You're listening to Coptic
Conversation. All right, so today I have the
pleasure of speaking with Michael Elgamon. And
if you don't know this young man, he is a Coptic
Orthodox writer and artist. And before I tell
you his big project, let me tell you that he
published picture books for children, graphic
novels for all ages. And one of his most recent
works is Anastasis and The Life of St. John the
Short. If you haven't guessed by now, yes, it's
Michael from Creative Orthodox. And under Creative
Orthodox, he published Anastasis and The Life
of St. John the Short and other visual works
such as Ascent, a documentary on St. Anthony
the Great. He lives in Kitchener, Ontario, Canada
with his wife, Marjorie, and two children. So
thank you for being here, Michael. I'm looking
forward to our conversation. And like digital
media meets the Orthodox faith and, you know,
bringing them both together. How did all this
come about? First of all, thank you so much,
Abuna, for having me. It is a pleasure. And I
love that we can have these conversations and
have these. projects so near to home. It was
an hour drive for me. So it's so encouraging
that so much is happening in this area, art and
media wise. And as far as when Creative Orthodox
and how Creative Orthodox started, it was actually
from a negative experience. So it was I was let
go out of my first job out of university. So
I have a marketing background. So it was an entry
level marketing position. And I was let go from
that first role and it took me a very long time
to find a job around a year and a half and so
unemployment it's it's a tougher cross to bear
mentally more so where the day -to -day starts
blending you you stop having having reason to
to wake up early you stop having reasons to have
discipline right and things start things start
meshing together and you can very easily um lose
lose your way and lose focus and so at the time
i wanted something to keep me disciplined to
give me a schedule to have to have a job other
than applying for jobs and so i wanted to um
i i I've been drawing all my life. So I said,
okay, I'll just, and I love comics. So I said,
I'll start drawing comics. And I actually wanted
to start with the, one of my favorite saints
and Anthony the Great. And then I got to drawing
and one of my closest friends, Anthony Paul,
I would take to him the drawing and I'd be like,
here, here are some sketches. He's like, no.
No, that's not Saint Anthony. It doesn't look
like him. And so I realized that, okay, maybe
not my first project out the gate, I'll be able
to get this right. And I can't get it right unless
Abuna Anthony felt like it's close to the saint.
um and so i was like okay let's do the second
the the let's do another one of the great saints
and i found that saint john the short had um
an awesome thorough translation of the manuscript
we have we have his entire life translated and
so there's a lot A lot to work with. A lot to
work with, exactly. And so I started doing that.
And then over six years, I was drawing day in,
day out. Obviously found a job a year and a half
in, but continued doing so. And while I was working
on the book, I started illustrating saints on
the Orthodox calendar year. So whenever a feast
day comes, I would illustrate that saint. You
would release that. Exactly. And so over the
years, it just built up from there and then got
into Anastasis. And it sort of just became a
way, a creative outlet for me. And to a lesser
extent, for my personal service. But it's just
my entire life I've been telling stories. And
so I kind of very naturally fell into Creative
Orthodox. And it's interesting that you're coming
from a marketing background. I thought for sure
you'd have some sort of artistic training or
training in the arts or digital media, even something.
But coming from marketing, how did that help?
Yeah, so marketing is actually storytelling.
And I would say this about most projects and
things that I make. It's actually... It's actually
stronger from a storytelling perspective than
the artistic and the technical standpoint. And
so in everything I do, even even at work, it's
all it's I live and die by story from marketing
to grow in marketing. You have to know your audience.
You have to know what they're what you're trying
to say, the concise message that you're trying
to deliver. And it's the same thing. And it God
has sort of. worked with me in this way in my
life where the things that I need to learn to
help me with my projects or service or help me
grow um end up working their way into all aspects
of my life and so when at a time where I need
to get into filmmaking I would get a project
at work to start going and shooting commercials
at a time where I would need to start getting
into audio same thing at work and so and and
vice versa so things that I would do for creative
orthodox help helped me go further in my career
so is it was sort of this mutually beneficial
relationship between my work and other aspects
of my life and creative orthodox very nice and
you know the challenges of trying to find work
and all that stuff to be able to to channel all
that creative energy into something like this.
You channeled it into the faith and produced
something and created something that's truly
remarkable and unique. I don't know of any other
illustrator or digital media creator out there
that's Orthodox and creating, at least Coptic
Orthodox, and creating similar things. And it's
amazing. And my question is, with all of the
things that the church does, where does digital
media fit into the grand scheme of things? I
mean, I know a lot of people who have artistic
ability and they usually tend to go into the
route of iconography. So I'll sidestep your question
to frame my answer. I actually think this storytelling
is in the fabric of the church. 20 steps back.
Actually, I actually think storytelling is every
human's way of communicating, disseminating information
and building, passing down culture and tradition.
So that's just the natural human way of communicating.
But I actually think specifically story and narrative
is a way of action. A way that the Holy Spirit
takes action in our lives. Christ could have
used any way of communicating, but he chose story,
he chose parables. I actually think this is fascinating.
In stories of a lot of the saints, you have the
Spirit guiding someone specifically to get the
story. In the life of St. Mary of Egypt, Abba
Zosimas, specifically, all he did in her life.
Well, he gave them communion, so there's that.
But all he did in her life is led by the spirit
to get her story down. And that was it. That
was the end of their interaction. And so even
when you take a look at the life of St. John
the Short, it was written by a saint, Zachariah
of Sacha. And he was just a well -learned man,
a rarity at the time. He worked for the government
because he knew how to read and write. And he
was called by the Spirit to become a monk. And
then the monks passed down the story of St. John
the Short. And that's how we have his story today.
And so I feel like that's one explicit thread
when it comes to storytelling. The church itself,
we have the institution narrative every liturgy.
So story permeates every aspect of our faith.
And I feel like the Holy Spirit uses story to
bring humans, to bring us closer to God. And
so when I think of creative orthodox, I don't
just think of it as a way of digital media. I
almost feel compelled to, and I think everyone
should have the same drive. If you're able to
tell a story and you know these stories of the
faith, it is your duty to tell that story. Because
if you didn't, then these stories might die.
And that's where you have things like people
specifically, like Abba Pavnotius, like was led
by the spirit specifically to go in the desert,
take down and write down the stories of the saints.
And that's how we know the story of Abba Nofer,
the anchorite. So it's like if these people who
are writers, like let's not view them in that
shell of a saint, who are writers, painters,
artists, the ones who painted the walls and frescoes
in the monasteries. If these people chose not
to tell stories. we would have had huge gaps
in our tradition, huge gaps in the beautiful
tapestry that is Coptic Orthodoxy. And so that's
the way that I view it. I don't so much view
it as, oh, there's social media. Let's do something
cool there. Let's have an account. Let's run
it. Let's make pictures. I just view it as the
church itself and our faith is story. And if
I can, and I love this stuff and I enjoy it,
that's my hobby. I will tell these stories. Right.
And it's actually, it's a way of bringing us
into that grander story, the story of salvation.
Yep. Right. And I love, of course, how you mentioned
how that common element in many of the same stories
about someone's only role in the story is to
go get the story. Like St. Julius Al -Aqfasi,
who is the biographer of the saints, who is...
Every time he appears in a story, his role is
to look at the story, just to write it down,
write down what happened, and to witness for
that, to provide that witness and to say, this
is what happened. And it's not just as a way
of documenting history. there's a purpose to
it right like it's hagiography it's bringing
us into the story it's pushing us forward towards
something towards holiness towards righteousness
right so it's not like like you're saying it's
not just digital media for its own sake yep I
love how there's a purpose behind it. It's something
that draws you in. Whenever you see one of those
paintings, drawings for one of the saints, illustrations,
thank you. So whenever you see one of those illustrations
for one of the feasts of the church, one of the
saints, it draws you into the story of the saint.
It's not just about reminding us, yeah, today
is the feast of St. Anthony or today is the feast
of St. Moses. It draws you into a story, into
the life of the saint. yeah and so two two points
here that i want to bring forward and and you
remind me of that i'm actually very careful not
calling any of the work i do icons and i'm actually
relatively inconsistent with this but sometimes
i make the decision to not have a halo to be
to purposefully say this is not an icon this
is not a an object of prayer Sometimes I add
the halo. It's inconsistent. But the times that
I do ignore it is because that's on my mind.
And I am not illustrating within the trained
and the incredible tradition of iconography.
It's story. It actually is story. And that's
also an extension of how I was raised. I immigrated
to Canada when I was 14 years old. um and so
i in in egypt i have really fond memories of
my geddo he would um he he lived in shobra we
lived in maedi and he would bring after he would
come visit us um in our home over the weekend
he will go to a liturgy and he would come back
and i remember he he comes back and i'd be very
excited because he gets a full urban um from
the hamel so i'd be really excited for the full
urban and then he would come in we'd go into
a room and he had he had a a brown briefcase
i remember vividly and the briefcase the plastic
and had like a leather texture to it he would
sit down very slowly very carefully open it up
and he would he would So the back of the briefcase
is to me, so I can't see what he's picking up.
And so it was very exciting for me. And he would
take out pictures of the saints that he picked
up at the bookstore. And every week he would
do this. He would go get different pictures,
pick them up and would bring them. And every
time he would pass them to me, tell me their
story and we'll go from there. At the same time,
my tita's brother was a monk at Dera Suryan,
so Abuna Personofius. And then whenever he would
have any medical procedures to do in the city,
he would come, he would visit, and he would always
sit us down and he would start telling these
stories. And whoever remembers details of the
story, he would give them a picture of the saint
from his pocket. And I didn't realize this at
the time. And the things that he was giving away
was the things that he had. had collected along
the visit so he can go back to the monastery
empty pockets same way he left exactly so he
would he would visit people accumulate things
and then as he asked question he just gives them
back as he's as he's moving and so i was raised
on on story in this way and that's why that's
sort of the place that i operate and not not
iconography i feel like this is its own pillar
in our In our tradition. But there's also the
aspect of story that is a very big part of why
such a small collection of persecuted people
in Egypt made it over the centuries. Because
the story. Because they told their story. Yeah.
And so I would assume you would see yourself
as a storyteller. Yep. More than anything else.
You're a storyteller. And this happens to be
your vehicle, your medium, the way you're telling
the story. And it's actually probably frustrating
for... For anyone who follows my work, if they
had liked one thing or another, because I keep
switching the mode. I did graphic novels, and
then I switched to coloring books and picture
books for children, then switched to the documentary,
so a bit of filmmaking, and then switched into
the audio drama, pure audio. And actually in
Kitchener several years ago, we made a dinner,
and it was the story of salvation told through
the meals. So we would have every course, it
was a nine course. um dinner and every one is
part of the story of salvation it was the garden
of eden was a garden salad as an appetizer and
then we had the the ark as as first um soup but
without the water and then servers would go around
and drown drown the the soup and so it kept going
and then the we were very careful in the application
i'm giving a very blunt summary of it but um
then it comes to the the sacrifice and resurrection
resurrection being a dessert so it's a sweetness
we actually had in the fall we had a salad and
in it we had very bitter flavors so the person
would start getting into it and then all of a
sudden they start tasting like the apple but
then also and fruit and then they would start
tasting bitterness so i i actually i don't i
i don't stick with one vehicle just because it's
whatever i'm into at the time whatever mode tells
the story the best. It usually starts with what
story am I trying to tell and then it sort of
dictates what. um what the vehicle is but yeah
it must be frustrating for someone who likes
one thing and is expecting more of it and he's
and someone who's following your work and then
to see like okay now he's switching lanes yep
he's still telling stories but he's doing something
else with it i love how you're doing it with
food even that's amazing was this something at
your home or a church it was a church it was
a church and we actually i mean there's so much
involved with it but we actually wanted to um
expand it to name like the neighboring churches
in the gta as well and then we also explored
well what if we go to churches use their kitchens
and tell the story there so there's a lot of
unexplored territory there for that project specifically
um but yeah and speaking of influences you have
you mentioned your grandfather and your uncle
correct my teta's brother teta's brother Both
of these were in Egypt. When you immigrated,
you came here at 14 years old, around that time.
So what kind of things influenced your thinking
as you went through the high school, university
kind of years? Yeah, so to a very large degree,
it was a combination of... It continued being
my grandfather until the end of high school when
he... and then my father he is very well learned
in theology so our home is riddled um my parents
home is riddled with books on theology and such
and him and i have a very funny way of communicating
where if i even express a secondary thought of
a question about the faith that i have um He
wouldn't sit me down and start explaining it
to me because that's not how either of us kind
of think and approach it. I would start seeing
trickles of these books appearing all around
me, stacks of these books appearing around me.
And so it's a very fun way of communicating where
if I have a project, I just, and from watching
him, he's been writing. for i think for 20 plus
years um for a publication egypt so i would see
him sit down with these books preparing writing
in egypt he he wrote plays he so that that sort
of space um in a way i was just echoing what
i see my father what i saw my father do And then
the other huge influence was Father Anthony Paul,
where he was part of our close friends group.
And all together, we saw his love for St. Anthony.
And all of us converged on that love so much
so that it became a fabric of all of who we are.
as as people whenever he had a feast we would
have a cake we would a cake for ava anthony and
then we'd read his life um and do tasbah had
the night before it it became a non -negotiable
for us as a group of friends um and so that that
was another that was another huge influence on
me and that's that's why i sort of gravitated
to this place i'm in with the desert fathers
um and patristics and such And I noticed that
in your work, Desert Fathers occupy a large portion.
It's mostly Desert Fathers. Yeah. And you focus
so much on their lives. And it started with St.
Anthony. Yeah. And then it went to other Desert
Fathers. So what's your preparation process like?
So this is the part where I actually, I take
a step back and I notice that the things that
I'm making are the things that I would have loved
to consume when I was younger. I loved comics.
I still love comics. I grew up on both Disney,
superheroes, love Batman, all of these things.
Lord of the Rings. These things are the way that
I find, that I interpret and find meaning in
life or find life's meaning kind of thing. And
so when it comes to... illustrating the life
of a saint or researching the life of a saint
usually I start with the church calendar because
again the church is such an amazing storyteller
throughout the year the way that the saints the
way that the different the different saints are
interwoven in what the church is celebrating
now even the way that we when when it comes to
holy week we change the curtains to black to
white like there's a there's this incredible
narrative throughout the year that the church
um that is right in front of our eyes but is
really easy to to kind of miss um and so that's
usually where i start where it's like what's
coming up when it like what's a feast day that's
coming up From there, I usually take a look at
the Synexarium. Most often, the Synexarium doesn't
have a lot of detail, doesn't have a lot of historical
grounding. And so then I'd start taking a look
at manuscripts. I'd start looking at translations,
works by Tim Vivian, Deacon Severus. Michael,
there's so much out there. And this is where
younger me would have been so thankful. It's
just reading these things is tough. You're reading
something. I experienced this when drawing The
Life of St. John the Short. The manuscript is
not written how we interpret stories today. obviously
it was in the fourth century it's written as
um more like a mosaic of like saint john did
this saint john did this and he did this and
then did this and then he died let us emulate
him and that's the way that they consume story
back then it's changed right now we have a very
tight um way of story whereas someone woke up
something changed the way that something changed
the way their day -to -day they went on an adventure
they refused the adventure they decided to take
it on they grew they fought there was a darkest
night they chose to overcome and then they changed
and they became a different person and rinse
and repeat that's just the the story cycle and
so when you take that and you apply it to a manuscript
you see you see that it's a very different um
a very different way of telling the story and
so that's i think where the bulk of my work goes
into it's let's look at the original um text
let's look at the the translated text english
or arabic and let's find a narrative in there
and translate it to whatever medium that uh that
comes out of it very nice and obviously it goes
without saying that there's a lot of work there's
a lot of reading that goes into it consuming
everything that you can get your hands on trying
to get as much data as much information is there
someone that kind of like a reference at the
rate at the rate i go i usually finish it depends
on big projects i have i have a a group of close
friends and harsh critics um where i where i
send i send the the work and kind of get their
get their feedback And my parents as well and
my sister. If you want to know the pure opinion
about anything in life, just ask your family.
They will not sugarcoat anything. Absolutely.
So I have a circle where I do send these things.
The smaller stuff like the day -to -day, I sort
of just get the small stories out there. But
for bigger projects, absolutely. It's so easy
to make mistakes, especially since there's so
much about the faith. I'll give you an example.
At some point, I was excited about representing
an Orthodox family. And so I drew the Holy Family.
And I was so excited about it. let's do this
then i then i started getting the feedback that
actually we don't really love illustrating um
saint joseph with christ and saint mary because
it doesn't communicate the true nature the true
nature of christ so even though it's right it's
not we don't really typically do it in this form
and so these subtle things there's so much of
it in in all in all the stories of the saints
and so it is very easy to make a mistake and
that's why i have great respect for iconography
because it has these parameters where which a
master or a master iconographer would teach those
those rules um to to a student and so for lack
of that i i've i make i've made i can i will
continue making these mistakes i'm trying to
learn learn from it um as i as i tell these stories
And I think that's where you probably grow the
most is from learning. And as a modern person
reading something from the 4th century, from
the 7th century, it's so hard to not read something
into the story. Right. Like you want to read
it this way because this is how you would react
if you were there. If you were the person in
the story, what would I do? Right. And it's very
difficult to kind of read it on its own terms.
And I love how you're able to do that and then
present it in a way so that someone from the
21st century is able to read that and not misunderstand,
not kind of read something into the story. Absolutely.
I'll give you an example. And I still struggle
with this. I struggle with my decision, but you
make it, you move on. In the life of St. John
the Short, Abba Amoy, when he first sees him,
Abba Amoy kicks him out. After St. John the Short
made a 12 -day journey to reach the monastery,
and then Abba Amoy ignored him. He told him,
you're not going to be a monk. You're not going
to last a day. And then he kicked John out. John
sat outside of his cell praying. And Abba Amoy,
every day, for weeks at a time he would go out
with um with branches and he would beat saint
john away from near his cell every day he opens
the door of his cell beats saint john saint john
goes and then comes back continues praying until
after that period of time about one went out
and saw saint john praying and then he's surrounded
by seven angels praying with him he was like
okay wait a minute um but for me when i made
the the graphic novel i actually chose not to
not to include that and for better for worse
i felt like i'm from a narrative perspective
usually this is the point the point where you
have that father figure come in that sensei that
that teacher and um you want to communicate to
the reader how incredible they are how much they're
building um the protagonist and so at at the
point of making the book i decided not to include
that i figured it's it paints about moi in a
very harsh way exactly and the modern the modern
reader might not see through that they might
say like How are you teaching love when this
is how you're welcoming someone who comes to
your monastery? And so I made the decision not
to include it. I don't know. I still think about
it sometimes. I think maybe, you know, you're
representing the part of discipline, the part
of chose the seriousness of taking that vow of
poverty and becoming a monk. I don't know if
it was the right decision or wrong, but that's
what I mean is that there are so many chances
to make these little decisions and cloud the
story with my own interpretation. But I think
this must have happened in the same manuscript
of the St. John the Short. There is a huge paragraph.
that that goes on basically a rant an anti -chalcedonian
rant and it was obviously just the interpretation
of of saint zacharias that's he was feeling at
the time and it's a it's the same with on the
incarnation You have St. Athanasius communicating
how St. Anthony and he reacted towards the Arians.
And so no matter what, whenever someone sits
down to write a story, it obviously takes their
own personal lens. And that's scary. for me it's
a lot of responsibility on your shoulders exactly
but we do have a lot of that like we have in
the story of saint moses and the the treatment
he receives in the monastery i mean like you
know uh it seems like i mean this must have been
such a harsh thing like to come in earnestly
seeking god and then you know being put through
all these tests and then still enduring any you
see this like you hear stories about like sanctuary
right to your stories even about saint cyril
of Alexandria. And, you know, for the longest
time in the West, he's vilified because, you
know, harshness of, you know, it's so easy to
fall into that mistake that, you know, as a modern,
you're reading a lot into the story and not reading
it necessarily on its own terms. And if you,
if you hear stories today, not stories from the
fourth century, but today, you know, about monastic
communities and how they function and, you know,
the kind of seriousness that they approach monasticism.
This is not something interpreted as like, you
know, you have to be nice and polite and you
have to be like, these are people who are going
out there to be tested to their limit, to face,
you know, the spiritual battle at its harshest,
right? They're not there, you know, to be coddled.
They're there to be tested and that's why they
go there to be tested, right? I see also that...
You do focus a lot on earlier saints, but there
are a few modern saints that you've included,
like Father Saman Shahata. What was the motivation
behind that? Kind of do an illustration for him.
It's still this line that I try to walk, where
I called the platform or brand, whatever, Creative
Orthodox. To be able to tell the stories of our
saints and not offend people who might, for example,
shun it just if it's called Coptic Orthodox,
for example. I didn't call it like creative Christian,
for example, because I feel like there are so
many artists that are way and storytellers way
better than I am telling those stories at that
level. And so that's that's sort of why I focus
on creative Orthodox. and at the same time i
focus on early fathers because they are the ones
that are common across um eastern and oriental
orthodoxy so it's a good it's a good way to tell
these stories of these incredible saints away
from any preconceived notions away from that
right from all the polemics and all that exactly
um and sort of do that one work telling that
story and serve a bigger a bigger portion of
um of christians on the other hand When I think
an advantage of social media is the speed with
which it goes. I think an iconographer would
write an incredible icon for these martyrs, but
it might take a week, it might take a month.
And so something that I feel is within the limits
of my service is when there's a modern martyr.
I like to illustrate a picture so the picture
of them, if there's a picture of them bloody,
like from the investigation, from whatever, I
wouldn't want that to be a thing. You wouldn't
feel comfortable sharing it with your kids, for
example. So I usually do it under the guise of
let's put something quick together, simple, but
an image to put them in context with the rest
of the cloud of witnesses. Like these same saints
that I'm drawing, The church hasn't stopped.
It's still going and we're still telling these
stories and adding them to the same larger picture
and the same cloud of witnesses that we have.
And so that's the main reason why I tend to illustrate
also modern saints to kind of tell that story
of it's still going. It didn't stop in the fourth
century. It's bringing people into that reality
that we're still in the church. There's still
the cloud of witnesses is growing. Exactly. But
at the same time, I usually have the same challenges
that we just talked about. I try to pause, investigate,
look into it. How did the martyr die? Is it verified
by the church? Like all these things. I don't
want to rush just because of how fast things
may go, how fast news can go and falsehoods can
go around. I don't like it too much, that part,
how quick these things make go. It's like a double
-edged sword. Exactly, exactly. So sometimes
you'll notice that sometimes I would have forgone
drawing a person or another just because I just
wasn't comfortable with the whole thing. But
if it is, if the church came out and identified
them as a martyr, I love to have this thing to
share with children that is not graphic or scary.
And you mentioned how we used to give out pictures
in Sunday school. I miss that. Growing up, I
used to get all these pictures and go home with
all of them. But I don't know if we do that anymore.
I don't think we do much of those. I don't think
so. And if we do it, it's from an ancient...
We have this stack that we haven't... We do,
yeah. It's not a new... We don't make any new
ones. We just use the ones we already have. Because
everything is going digital now. So did you ever
consider doing something that's not digital?
taking it and maybe doing something in print
absolutely and that that's why i also started
um exploring carving recently there's there's
a fleeting quality of digital like drawing with
pixels um and so recently i've started um exploring
exploring carving or doing ink prints so to carve
a block and then put ink on it and then you put
the paper so you produce something tangible something
you're able you're able to hold um with this
stuff i i have limitation logistical limitations
as in i i do everything related to creative orthodox
and so When it comes to shipping, when it comes
to store setup and all of these things, finding
good rates. And again, being an individual rather
than a company means things are expensive. You're
the only employee in the whole company. Exactly.
I'm HR. All of them. Yeah. R &D, everything.
Marketing. Exactly. You're meeting the whole
team right now. So it's harder for me to find
economies of scale and make it available at a
good rate. And so I try as much as possible to
make the books available cheaply, accessible
and such. But at the end of the day, nothing
is as easy as here is a $2 PDF. Here is this
thing. It's just so much easier to do it digitally,
right? Exactly. one of your illustrations for
saint anthony uh the way you had the light focus
in and then like everything else is darkness
and saint anthony and then all the demons are
you know in the periphery and then saint anthony
is in the middle and you know there's light how
were you able to make that happen and do that
without formal training in this kind of thing
is this doable like if someone has the passion
someone would like to be a storyteller and you
know go into these kinds of illustrations. How
doable is this? It is so incredibly accessible
and I think I'm the best example because my drawing
and I say this with all objectivity, it is so
bad. It is a child's drawing. If you actually
see, I have a sketch of St. Paul that I did when
I was very young. My mother usually, my parents
always encouraged me to keep drawing and draw
comics and such. And so my mom kept this, I believe
I was four years old, but it must've been a bit
after. But anyways, it was St. Paul and it was
drawing. it looks exactly as how how i would
draw him today i haven't changed one bit and
so i and but what is encouraging to me so so
that's one thing i mean i i don't think i'm particularly
good at illustration but what is encouraging
to me is that i and it brings me even a little
bit of pride is that when i look at the frescoes
in san antonis in in bowit when i look at all
of these wall paintings um they look the same
there it's not i mean obviously there's so much
more artistry that goes into putting a fresco
on a wall mixing the colors and painting them
but the line the line work is simple it is it
is a nice um unobstructed childish look at the
story it is simple it's and that's what i love
about the old coptic the old coptic art is that
it is so deep but so accessible And so anyone
can sit down and draw. And there are so many
tutorials online now. It is so accessible. You
can get a drawing tablet for, I don't know, $70.
And that's it. You don't even need a drawing
tablet. You can draw, scan, take a picture, and
that's it. And so when it comes to that, I think
the beginning is really easy. And then knowing
how to... How to tell the story that you're trying
to tell. This comes from practice. You'll see
that I've drawn some things where I take a step
back and I say, okay, the eye isn't going to
the saint first. Something needs to change there.
From us growing, looking at iconography, all
of that. it must be entrenched in us to be able
to, it's a language. And I think that our church
is really good at teaching us that language.
And so I think anyone who is familiar with that
imagery were to sit down and start drawing and
practice a little bit. With time, they'll easily,
I mean, very quickly, they'll draw better than
I draw. And then with time, they can even start
exploring iconography wherever their heart goes.
um and then you can get into a formal the formal
artistic areas where when you draw something
you make it black and white take a look at where
what these um gradients are telling you what
story these gradients are saying what's coming
out what's falling in the back um and so right
now my general process for for creative work
and i apply this to film i apply this to scripts
i apply this to any any media is um doing different
like finishing the work very quickly don't don't
edit too much and then just staying in editing
and doing many passes of did i make any theological
mistake did i is this out of the ordinary um
are the colors that telling the right story like
color temperature and such um or is the picture
um or am i emphasizing the elements i want to
emphasize that sort of thing and then just taking
all these different passes of editing and at
that it's so much easier at that point because
you're not you're not in the in the mode of like
creative expression and and focusing on drawing
at that point you're just looking at it as any
other um as any disconnected audience member.
And so you can take a look at it and say, okay,
this is right, this is wrong. And you do it separately.
You do a pass for color, do a pass for values,
do a pass for the line work. And so it becomes
easy that way when you break it down into those
different phases. And this process developed
obviously over time. Absolutely. Trial and error.
And it's amazing. how simple the the drawings
are but they speak a lot they say a lot and they
really do effectively draw you into that story
and you know it's every time i look at part of
the illustration like i can draw that yeah like
i i and that's the like it's deceptively simple
like like i can like and then yet at the same
time all these elements work so well together
to really bring you into that. And illustration
itself doesn't become kind of like an obstacle.
It draws you deeper than actual illustration,
right? And it definitely helps to look at it
with the liturgical, like liturgically our senses
are being trained. And for someone to start doing
this kind of thing, like you're not starting
from scratch, like you've been in, you've been
churched. You've been in a church, you're born
and raised, and your eyes, your ears, your senses
are being focused towards this. So when you approach
this, men speak a lot, right? And the choice
of colors, all of that, like the composition,
it's just beautiful. And I do want to get into
your big work, Anastasis, but before, I also
want to ask if you consider doing something contemporary.
using the same you know same techniques you know
your same kind of visual have you considered
doing something in it absolutely um so one i'm
still trying to figure out how to tell that story
is the story of saint moses the strong scene
in a contemporary um present -day context and
i think for this one specifically it's so easy
when we talk about the saints i mean kind of
it's kind of the other side of what we were just
talking about where it you don't you don't think
of them as this could be my dad this could be
my uncle this could be someone an elder at church
you just see them wearing their tunics their
big crosses the halos you you separate yourself
from them yeah and and even more so for the saints
that that their writers made sure to say they
were born praying they were since a very young
age they loved god And so I think the strength
of the story of St. Moses is that he didn't.
And we have enough detail. We have other examples,
but we have enough detail in the life of St.
Moses to know what he did before he started turning
towards God. He was definitely a sinner before
he became a saint. Yeah, and he would have done
things way worse than most of us would. Not that
that matters, but it's a good example. It's sincerely
a good, relatable example. um i'm really passionate
about and i've had this this idea for for about
seven years where to tell his story in in present
day showing him struggling with drugs with gang
activity stealing with um with lust and the things
that are like pornography as it as it it's ravaging
the young like the younger um yeah young people
these days and so showing showing him going through
that and showing how he turned to God. Again,
there are logistical limitations that I have
there. I've always envisioned it as a film. And
I know that actually a filmmaker from the Eastern
Church started making a film exactly the same
way, the same story as told in Chicago. And so
I think this is another thing that kind of goes
to the beginning of our conversation. The spirit
finds a way to tell the story. And so that's
one way. The story is still in my heart and it's
been in my mind for a long time. So I think I
wanted to start exploring telling it in other
formats, maybe audio. So that's one idea. But
another one that I'm really passionate about,
we've actually made it as a film for our church's
kids camp years ago. It's called The Keepers
of the Word. And the story is in a dystopian
future where... all the big companies and the
governments merged into one entity and in order
to avoid fake news and all of these things anything
that is not scientifically proven is purged and
information is disseminated from one governing
body of the world and so sort of taking all our
present day uh scenarios and kind of taking them
to a to a characterized extreme um and then showing
how christianity lived at that time or how it
survived and the way that i'm structuring it
it actually mirrors early christianity's rise
um in the in the roman empire and so it's um
it it takes it it follows it follows this group
of christians that identified the last remaining
bible um months before it gets purged and then
all of christianity because it can't be proven
so it's part of that thing that is um that is
getting purged yeah exactly and their their story
for how to uh how to revive the word and how
how does this group of people live in this um
hostile environment how are they living their
faith and how are they containing their tradition
and and the bottom line that i'm hoping of currently
i'm doing it as a graphic novel the bottom line
that i'm hoping to communicate with that with
that work is if you are not taking specific actions
today to learn your faith tell tell the story
of your faith and live out your faith um explicitly
and not compartmentalize it and just your weekend
or or such um then then the faith is at at a
risk but more so your life and your spiritual
life is is at risk and there are implications
for our children and and the future of the the
church so when you say you wanted to do a film
and you mentioned doing some audio uh what was
how's the transition from just like a digital
illustration now you're putting in audio adding
another dimension yeah so And the transition
between one medium to another is not hard in
the way that if you have the core story, it doesn't
matter what you're... You can do interpretive
dance. You're telling... If you have the story
down, you're... You could, but probably shouldn't.
You could, but shouldn't. And it's not something
that I'd be particularly good at. Would that
be something maybe down the line for you? No,
no. I don't think that's something we're going
to explore. We're going to rule it out. Yeah.
But... the the core of the story is there then
it's easy to tell that same thing in whatever
in whatever format the hard work comes into actually
um sitting down writing that script or drawing
the day -to -day a lot a lot of making these
things come together comes in like showing up
every day and it's really hard to carve out that
time and even even now more so that that i have
a baby daughter it's um it's it's hard and i
have to be purposeful and at times actually at
the end of every project and you can you can
ask my wife my my entire family actively sacrifices
to get these things out the door so when when
there is a release i start sleeping later i can't
help in the morning so my wife has to do more
my my son has to forego an activity or two. All
of us have to sacrifice to kind of put that thing,
get that project to an end. And so I think the
hard part isn't actually in taking a story and
telling it in different formats. I think the
hard part is show up and do that every day. And
to me, oddly enough, I feel like the content
actually helps me get through it where in some
of the fathers, it's just water the tree. Show
up and water the dead stick, like as in Abba
John's life. And so I think a lot of these things,
it's not about the grand, what's the great idea.
Ideas are easy. Ideas are quick. Ideas come all
the time. It's like, are you watering that dead
stick without really, without having anything
to show for it for six years, for two years,
for whatever, how long a project takes? Are you
showing up and doing that little bit of work
to move it? forward kind of thing and you know
having a family with young children it must be
difficult of course to find that time and motivation
any sort of time you're conflicted like do I
spend time on this or with the kids and how much
of this is for the people within the church and
how much of it is consumed by people who are
just like maybe seekers or people who are just
getting exposed to the orthodox faith have you
seen your work being used this way have you considered
your work being as a sort of like a missionary
tool or something using like missionary efforts
absolutely and people have reached out in that
capacity and such i try not to think about it
it is so easy especially in the realm of social
media um to first of all harm harm a ton of people
but harm myself like it's so easy to just obsess
about the wrong things and and i i have at times
and that's why i i i try to put um i try to put
guardrails for myself to kind of just stay within
their own i'll just tell the story and nothing
else matters um from how many people are watching
this oh the funnier stuff gets a lot more engagement
i should do more funny stuff um people like this
don't really like that i should do more of this
than that i should do more for converts rather
than believers i try not to think about any of
that some sometimes it's it screams at me and
i it's just a very dangerous place it's also
why i try not to use my first name last name
so i don't trick myself into thinking that it's
the person So I try to separate myself from the
platform. That's funny. Sometimes people come
after me. It's like you're being subversive on
purpose. Like, why are you hiding? I'm trying
to separate myself from it. Some sort of conspiracy
theory. He's putting this stuff out there. Exactly.
But I try as much as possible not to let myself
get distracted with all of the things that an
ego can feed off of on social media. So I don't
think about it much. But I know for sure that
the saints are the saints. Saint Anthony is going
to continue drawing millions of people over the
ages. It's Saint Anthony. His story, it's so
funny. When you start looking into the history
of Saint Anthony and how it started with Saint
Athanasius writing the story in the early...
Third century, late third century. And it caught
like wildfire. Went to Europe and they did the
Golden Legend. Caught like wildfire. You see
St. Augustine. St. Augustine reads it and says,
I am compelled. He uses the same words that we
use today. That myself and my group of friends,
we felt the same way. Like you read St. Augustine's
reading of it. And that was shortly after. Same
thing. and it doesn't matter ever since then
till today the same story someone reads it oh
my god what is in that story it's a story like
any other story but for some reason this one
stayed centuries this egyptian peasant in the
middle of nowhere there is no reason why we should
be talking about him today but we are yeah and
so that's why i think it's not really about it's
not really about the The vehicle, it's the content.
The content itself is St. Anthony, St. Moses
the Strong, St. Mary of Egypt. And I see the
same thing with St. Macarius the Great in the
intro to the 50s spiritual homilies about how
his impact in post -reformation West is... great
to the extent that there are some pastors who
have memorized large chunks of these and again
like in your mind you think like what does east
have to do with west what does city have to do
with desert but the connection is there and it
deep it's much deeper you know than than just
the words it's in a connection in the heart essentially
and it draws people in but i wonder if the Elements
you draw on obviously come from your own background,
from your own tradition, growing up in a Coptic
Orthodox church. Have you considered doing something,
drawing on a different tradition? Elements from
South America, from a different culture, essentially
to do the same illustrations, to tell the same
story, right? It has, absolutely. I've illustrated
saints like St. Olga of Alaska, who was recently
canonized in the Eastern Church. Saints like
St. Morwina, who is a European saint. So absolutely.
At the same time, I just feel who's going to
tell their story? Who's going to tell the story
of the cots? Right. And I feel such allegiance
to the... The father of my father's father's
father. I feel like for this small population
of people, again, said that, lived centuries
ago, have been persecuted their entire life.
Our iconography completely wiped out under that
persecution. Manuscripts gone with the different
raids. Who's going to tell our story? But at
the same time, again, in terms of the content
that I choose to do, I go to the early centuries.
If not, then if there's a recent Orthodox saint
that their life touches my own, and I find that
they fit within the paradigm of our beliefs and
our church. Absolutely. There's no hard line
in that way. And again, I do see an advantage
to what I do is being outside of the paradigm
of iconography for good reason. I mean, iconographers
are great at what they do and they're necessary
and credible for that specific place they fulfill.
The same thing with me. in terms of those light
illustration accessible and and it can it can
veer on more contemporary saints older saints
it's a it's a more nimble format and so i do
play i if there is a if i feel like there's a
story that needs selling there and a role for
me to play i absolutely yeah more nimble there's
more flexibility with you know with your medium
right so now let's move into you know your magnus
opal mirror uh anastasis how did that come about
this was actually a two -month project two months
wow yeah and it it was so fast that published
before um saint john the short where it was just
a year before the six year like the sixth year
where i finished that work um the story i was
told years and years ago by a dear friend of
mine who told me this story of a play she saw
in egypt And I promised her and I promised her
husband I will illustrate this story. And then
she passed away from cancer. And then years and
years later into Creative Orthodox, it started
gnawing at me. And so I got together with her
husband, Deacon John, and he... And he managed
to whip me into shape within two months to do
it. It was this collaborative flowing work every
night, sending drawings and then getting feedback,
the script. I think we hit kind of a state of
flow for the two months and then out came that
work. But that story is the story of stories.
We can talk for hours about just that story.
It's funny because some people look at the descent
and think, oh, this is just copying the same
story that are in other cultures with Osiris,
the god of the dead, and how he goes with Eurydice
from the Greek, where Orpheus goes into the dead
and brings her back. Every culture has this.
But what people aren't seeing is that every culture...
is trying and straining to tell the story of
Christ's descent into Hades. And even when you
take a look at narrative, the hero's journey,
it is that story. Whenever I encounter the story
of Christ's descent into Hades from even a slightly
different angle, I get overtaken with so much
emotion at how powerful. that story is it it's
yeah and and i love i love saint macarius's commentary
on it where he says when you read the story of
the descent don't think that this is a tale that
happened thousands of years ago christ is descending
into your heart if you let him and he will harrow
the hades of your heart and that to me again
like you can experience the story as as this
um As the story that transcends culture, it is
all of humanity. It includes the patriarchs.
And then you pause and you start looking at what
the church is trying to tell you. And you're
like, wait a minute. Hades is my heart. The darkness
that I'm in is me. And Christ comes into that
darkness. and raises and extends his hand and
I grasp it. It's funny, I do come bearing gifts.
I brought you one of the Prince of St. Anthony.
And that sort of, that was the summation of the
documentary work on St. Anthony. But for me...
thinking of the story of Antony being fought
by, actually beaten by the demons and him at
his lowest point, it tells you that he started
seeing Christ as a light and then he had that
moment. And to me, it's exactly that moment of
Anastasis. He's experiencing Christ's descent
into Hades and Christ raises him like Adam. And
to me, that moment of Christ raising the fallen
like Adam is a big part. It is a big point of
spiritual transformation. Right. And so I think
that's, again, the personal part of it, the part
that really hits home for me is that the human
heart and how... And St. Macarius is all about
the heart. The heart is where everything happens.
The dragons are there, the angels are there,
the fights, everything is happening in the heart.
And to speak to the flexibility of your medium,
you know this motif is applied like perfectly
with saint anthony we we only see this you know
in an iconography uh with adam and eve and and
how you use that and apply that and took it and
and incorporated in the story of saint anthony
right and at the same time saint micarius's words
are like the whole universe is in our heart right
like we're on the microcosm like everything is
happening there and it doesn't take away from
the story that all of these things happen on
a different level but at the same time they're
still happening in your heart that christ is
descending to the depth of your heart and raising
you know your your dead soul from the depth of
hades from the chains and and and setting you
free and Then breaking down all those chains.
So Anastasis, it's a beautiful story, beautifully
illustrated. There's different kinds of illustrations.
There are things there that are, you know, like
conversational. And then you go into like different
kinds of illustrations. How did you bring all
this together? Yeah, so it started with the manuscript.
This one is... chiefly from the Gospel of Nicodemus,
not to say that that specific piece of work is
100 % accepted and it's not 100 % right, but
the fact that it's there and so many of our fathers
corroborate the same language, the same story,
it tells that there is a source for these things,
that there is a very early tradition for that
story. And so I had to be careful with... adding
visuals to that. I had to make a lot of decisions.
Even while the graphic novel seven years ago
was the start of it, but recently, a few months
ago, I made it into an audio drama. And so even
when we translated it to the audio format, we
had to have really interesting questions around,
okay, so Hades, are people in anguish? are the
good is there there is a separation between the
good and the bad are the bad people being tortured
do they their spirits are they feeling that torture
do they walk around do they have so many questions
that you now have to answer because you're putting
it in a narrative format right and there is i'd
say the easy way out which is kind of taking
a look at all the interpretations by the european
artists the medieval artists but there's so much
noise that happened in these and there's a lot
of the imagination that goes into that right
exactly and the harrowing of hades specifically
artists loved it because of how um how how vivid
of a story it is and it allows them to like do
whatever they want license just do yeah exactly
as imaginative as creative as you can Absolutely.
You have Dante's Inferno, another piece of work
structured around the story of the descent. But
I had to be very careful. I didn't want to put
too much of an interpretation. And that's why
actually I look back at that book and I see it
kind of empty. Like when you look at behind,
like in the back of the panels, the backgrounds.
It's actually kind of sparse. I didn't really
put too much form to Hades. In the audio format,
I tried to add a little bit with the screams
and such to kind of paint a picture. But generally,
I was just very careful not to make assumptions.
But then some of the fathers actually got creative
with the story. You have Santa Fran, who has
hilarious poems where the devil and death personified
are having the conversation. And it's such a
funny conversation where death is like, Listen,
I trusted you. Are you sure this isn't Jesus?
And Satan is like, 100%. This is not Jesus. I
saw him. I tempted him. He bleeds. There's no
problem. And then death is like, Satan, you're
easily tricked. And then Satan's like, death,
you're just a brute. You're a blunt instrument.
You're not cunning. And so this back and forth.
and it's incredibly creative and it's from one
of the fathers so i took that and then made it
again both into the audio drama and the graphic
novel um and so wherever i tried to put that
to to kind of illustrate that world i tried not
to veer too much from existing um existing manuscripts
and media you don't want to go too much into
like speculative theology and go beyond right
but again like because of how you tell your story
the medium kind of affords you a bit of flexibility
in how you tell it and gives you the ability
kind of to go and you know focus in as much as
you want or zoom out and put as much detail or
as little as you want and at the end of the day
the story is doing what it's supposed to do like
it's drawing you in it's taking you into what's
into the events right and the nature of that
story too it's sort of it's kind of like the
avengers of biblical stories except it's true
it's truth but when you start hearing of what
happened with these um saints what about the
prophets king david he wrote the songs he did
this he did that he's in hades And then what
is he thinking? He wrote all of these things.
They have prophecies. What are they thinking?
And it's so incredible to think, oh, we're sitting
in darkness. We've been waiting for so many years,
kind of like us living our life. And we've been
waiting and we're done. like god hasn't really
come and appeared and and whatever where is the
salvation we were promised we're in hades this
is not how is this a loving god and then someone
comes and it's like oh i saw the messiah another
person comes saying john the forerunner he was
the forerunner on earth he is the forerunner
in hades goes and he's like there's one coming
after me and so taking these stories it is actually
like the avengers it has these incredible characters
that we know and we we grow up learning about
learning their stories moses david and then just
thinking and trying to continue their story to
say, okay, well, how are they dealing with this?
And then, oh goodness, the moment where Christ...
goes down and descends into hades this place
of darkness and i love the way that our church
again the the church being an incredible storyteller
um christ trampling death by death and and for
those in the tombs bestowing life he shattered
the iron gates even the both in the eastern church
and and and now we do it as well like the the
drama um but more so the the patristic reflection
of that story it's such a it's such a strong
victorious reflection of the story of christ
that i think it just takes that story and and
no matter how it's told i i think that that tale
kind of it's this it really is the story of stories
but a little a little bit that i actually want
to make obvious and bring to the forefront is
i was careful to continue drawing christ not
just as a victor but as a wounded a wounded christ
and Um, I, I even corrected that further in the
audio drama where Eve sees our mother, Eve sees
him and she says like, like you're, what have
they done to you? My son and my Lord, like they
bruised you, they, they scourged you. what what
happened and i i think this is a healthier and
that's the kind of the the way that the church
likes to look at atonement it's not just this
victorious superhero coming down and destroying
everything the it's it's the wounded christ our
victory is through the sacrifice and so i didn't
want to lose the sacrifice too much they don't
want the comic book medium to kind of it's funny
there are parallel stories in superman where
he's almost you know dying and dead and such
and through his death he goes near the sun gets
empowered and that's but it's not that it's it's
victory through brokenness victory through sacrifice
and through his death and so i wanted to keep
a little bit of that and i'm actually starting
the process of working on a deluxe whatever it
is version of the graphic novel where i take
the redone script for the audio drama and kind
of bolster the original graphic novel and reprint
it reprint it do volume printing instead because
right now it's print on demand which as a self
-published author it's the way to make it available
cheaply but you'll see that the ink is faded
the print the paper isn't great so not the same
quality exactly so i want to give that book new
life but also take that redone script and it's
actually very different than like if you listen
to the audio drama it's a very different script
than the than the graphic novel and i want to
bring that back to the graphic novel and make
sure i i believe it's a stronger story so did
that take you longer to kind of put together
in terms of script and planning no i most of
my projects take years to think about and then
I put immense pressure on myself, on my family
and everyone around me and just get it done in
several months. It's the way that I work. I work
really well under pressure and almost not at
all without the pressure. And so this is usually
how it happens. It's thinking Easter and then
being Easter six weeks away. I need to reach
out to voice actors, that kind of thing. And
then finally, you know, a few days or a few weeks
and then, you know, everything starts action.
The illustration that you have, if you were to
say how much of it is from extra biblical sources,
like you mentioned the Gospel of Nicodemus. What
kind of elements did you choose to include and
how did you make that choice? So at the end of
the book, there's a page with all the references.
I would go to say almost 80 % of every word in
that book is sourced from a patristic source.
Which is really impressive given that sometimes
it sounds so casual and conversational. That's
Santa Fran. And I love that. I feel like younger
me would have loved that. I wasn't one to sit
down and read the manuscripts and read the poetry
Santa Fran. I would have just read the comic
book and loved it and consumed it. And to think
that... Making the fathers conversational is
definitely a plus. Exactly. And you would have
no idea. And even near the end, in the narration,
it says Christ became the first fruit and he
became the door. These are the words of Saint
Cyril. You're reading a comic book, it's fitting,
it's flowing, and it's the words of Saint Cyril.
And I think I would have loved to give younger
me that gift of having... access to these manuscripts
in a way that engaged me because i i love i love
i've always loved stories i would have loved
to have something like this that let me into
the wealth of the fathers without the challenge
of of having to read something that was written
for an audience in like hundreds of years ago
right in in a way that you're not accustomed
to you're not used to like trained in a different
way of thinking and that's beautiful and how
did you structure that composition to like the
actual illustrations like I'm very visual and
I'm very obsessive. And so when there's a story,
I usually watch it or continue experiencing it.
for a long time before i put pen to paper and
so it's the same i've watched this the the film
of saint moses the strong in my head for years
same with anastasis it's just i kind of do the
research and start piecing it together in my
mind in the way that i want to watch it in an
exciting way and then i start um i do start with
the script with saint john the short i actually
started drawing right away i feel like that was
my inexperience at the time um whereas i was
writing and drawing the pages as they're going
uh and that's saint john yeah saint john and
i had to do go back and do a lot of rework because
it didn't fit right now my process is to start
with story and story story is easy to learn Like
there are rules of story where, yeah. And it's
the same thing in visuals where contrast is really
important. That's why you were gravitating towards
the image of St. Anthony in the middle because
he's contrasting with everything else. There's
a bit of space between him and everything else.
Same thing with the audio drama, same thing with
the graphic novel. I try to, if I put up a big
paragraph and it's a bit of a heavier thing,
I try to contrast it with like action or a lighter
sentence. right after to kind of give it room
to breathe so that's how I kind of figure figure
out pacing and such and then it's the same process
of editing over and over again trying to just
like like putting on different hats it's funny
because there's a way of teaching it in art where
you literally make different different eyeglasses
and title them differently to be like composition
glasses and actually to teach yourself you put
on the different glasses and and look at your
work from that different perspective and that
perspective only like not to get lost in all
the different applications and so that's what
i did to say okay well is your theme coming through
is is your what about the emotion yes a lot of
things i adjusted were came from that place of
thinking um you started the story with isaiah
and you have king david coming here and then
you ended with christ coming down and that's
it where is the rest of their story you need
to finish their arcs and so a lot of that stuff
i came back and and redid it from that angle
of okay let's edit it with that in mind this
in mind um and then yeah then if it's a if it's
in a visual format that's when i start sketching
little thumbnails and then from that i start
drawing the bigger the bigger pieces and and
getting it getting it done that way wow that's
beautiful i respect how much effort you put into
making sure that the way you're telling this
you're not being carried away like you're very
careful illustrator you're very careful storyteller
like you take your work with a lot of responsibility
that this is something that's going to influence
the thinking and the faith of someone who's going
to read this and i want to make sure i'm on the
right track you know cross my t's and dot my
eyes and make sure that what i'm saying fits
there's so much room for error with this stuff
it is especially with such a like an illustrative
or uh interpretive medium right like it's a lot
of it is with the reader yep right the second
you're done the piece out of your hand piece
of work is not even yours it's the readers you
have very little control of any right yeah yeah
and um with that i mean you're in the same kind
of ballpark as the iconographer because you you
produce something you make something and then
you step back and it's the the person the worshiper
who approaches the icon and the icon is used
in prayer in worship it's used along with other
icons it's used along you know with the hymns
it's like it has its place in the liturgical
space right and i think that digital illustration
it's got so much potential it's able to step
in all of these different places right it's accessible
it's very accessible right like someone can pick
this up who is not theologically trained who's
not very familiar with the stories of the saints
of the background with the tradition and be able
to pick up like 80 90 percent of what you're
trying to say in a way you want it to be told
right or understood and that's why it's such
a powerful media and i um i know of another digital
illustrator his name is mina uh mina anton i
believe but his work and his style very unique
and definitely uh different than yours He also
combines elements, but I feel like the storytelling
that approach that where you come from, what
you bring is something that has all this potential.
And, you know, I'm looking forward to more work
from you and to see what else your mind produces.
And, you know, I remember every week I would
have to go to like the newsstand. in Alexandria
and just pick up the latest comic book. It's
not even a question of... To me, it was more
important than food. My parents would tell me,
would you rather have this or food? I'm like,
no, this. And the reason this was the case is
because I was able to connect with it and I was
able to... The ideas that it portrayed... It
made sense to me, right? Even though, you know,
I didn't know what the illustrator was. I didn't
know who the storyteller was. I didn't know anything
about the storyteller, but it's such a powerful
medium that it was so effective and I just, I
had to have it. Today, we have a lot more offerings.
We have, you know, a lot of digital stuff out
there. A lot of, like you mentioned before, a
lot of noise. And with something like this coming
along, kind of like, A voice in the wilderness
and just there's all this stuff coming along
and all this stuff happening and all these things
bombarding us and our children and our youth.
What I want to see is more of this kind of presence
of these kind of stories on our bookshelves,
you know, in our homes, in our bookstores, because
where you might have, you know, kind of like
an obstacle reading from reading San Siro. this
is very accessible this makes it so that anyone
from anywhere can pick it up and just understand
what's being said what they're trying to say
and on that note i really want to thank you for
your time and i want to encourage everyone uh
if you are interested in following michael's
work it's creativeorthodox .com pick up a copy
for yourself it's available on amazon and be
on the lookout for his upcoming works be following
your work with great interest and it's i've been
following it for a while and please keep up the
great work thank you so much for the encouragement
abuna and thank you so much for having me i guess
an extension of that is if you draw if you write
if you make music then go and draw and write
and make music you don't need to be good at it
you don't it's it's if you have these stories
if you're raised on these stories if you find
these stories We need people to tell them in
the faith without St. Athanasius sitting down
to write, without Zacharias sitting down to write
the story, without the iconographers in the caves.
sitting down to draw these drawings that they
were almost sure no one is going to see we wouldn't
have had these stories and so if you're anywhere
close to to that that creative realm in the realm
of storytelling pick up the pen or go to your
computer any means necessary start start telling
these stories because that's the way that our
church has lived and that's the way that the
spirit talks to us and that's the way that we
pass down the faith I hope you enjoyed listening
to this episode for questions, comments, feedback,
or if you'd like to make a suggestion on a topic
for a future episode, please feel free to reach
out to the email in the bio. And don't forget
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drop. God bless you and have a great day.