Hello everyone, this is Father Paul, and I hope
you're having a good day. You're listening to
Copts in Conversation. Hello everyone, today
I have the pleasure of speaking with Archdeacon
Mark Solomon, who is a prominent figure in the
Coptic Orthodox Church Diocese of LA, and he
serves under the guidance of his eminence, Metropolitan
Serapion. archdeacon mark is deeply committed
to his spiritual work and community engagement
he is well known for his passion in engaging
and connecting with young adults across the diocese
and through the coptic clubs at various universities
his home parish is the st paul coptic american
church in Irvine, California. In addition to
his religious service, Mark is a triathlete.
He has completed an Ironman, and he's also an
accounting and finance professor at USC Marshall
School of Business. And probably his most prominent
role and the one that's relevant to our conversation
today is him being director of the Department
of Church and Culture, known as Rediscover IM,
within the Coptic Orthodox Diocese of Los Angeles.
And this department is dedicated to addressing
the unique needs of Copts in the American diaspora
through a variety of ministries. Welcome, Marty.
Thank you very much. It's a pleasure to have
you here. It's a pleasure to be here, Abuna.
And I know you've been to Canada a few times.
And I don't know, did you ever come to Canada
during winter? Yeah, I think last year. For some
reason, I only seem to come during the winter.
Last year, I came, I think, in February for a
family retreat as well. It's cold, but I've lived
in Michigan. I've lived in Chicago, so I'm kind
of used to the weather. Well, the joke's on you.
It's always winter in Canada. We have a couple
of weeks that we call summer, but mostly it's
winter. So this Department of Church and Culture
caught my attention because I've never seen anything
like it in any other diocese. and it seems like
this is exactly what we need the kind of conversation
the kind of issues that we need to tackle and
um what's the story here how did it begin where
did it come from So, His Eminence Metropolitan
Serapion, he's quite a visionary, I have to say.
He approached me a little over a year ago and
asked me if I would sort of head up a ministry
devoted to, and it started with kind of youth,
maybe what we call GYP, graduate and up. And
then it quickly, as we started having discussions
as to what this would look like, it quickly emerged
into something a bit bigger. And it wasn't just
a youth issue, but it became a cultural issue.
Like, how do we serve these people? And I think,
you know, the conversation started with, we need
to figure out why the youth are leaving. And
to that end, I spent several months. just doing
research, talking to lots of people who left
the church, people who left and came back, going
on, looking at surveys online, Orthodox Church
stuff, reading all kinds of documentation, and
really put together a very long list of reasons
why youth are leaving. And then I had AI sort
of morph that down into like nine or ten major
points. And then I gave several actually talks
about this topic, like why are they youth leaving?
And those talks kind of went viral. And so I
presented MSRP and sort of the results of all
of this stuff. And he looked at it for like 30
seconds and he said, OK, what are you going to
do about it? And then that's sort of what we
devoted the next year. uh two which is you know
obviously the parish church and the parish priest
that's the that's the bread and butter that's
the meat and potatoes of the spiritual life and
so that's there and that's that's where people
go to be fed and so you can't replace that you
know that's the sacraments but what you what
you can do is look for places where you can be
a resource to that process right so the priests
and the churches all overwhelmed all you know
under a lot of pressure and they're just kind
of hanging on to hold on to doing services. And
so some churches are big, have a lot of resources,
some don't. So providing resources that maybe
don't make sense for a particular parish to spearhead
themselves, but you can have the diocese pull
together some of the best resources we have in
the diocese and then organize it such that everyone
can benefit from these individuals that we have
and kind of coordinate the effort. So the idea
was to sort of serve the people in North America,
the American, you know, the American people in
the way they need to be served, you know, think
about how they need to hear orthodoxy and how
they need to understand it and approach it from
that kind of Western ear. And, you know, in Ambassadabian's
words, to be very orthodox, yet very American.
Right. You know, and in your case, Canadian.
And, you know, and he told me a story that he,
you know, he shared it and said he went to someone's
house once. And, you know, he's saying, you know,
how are the kids? You know, just a simple. And
they said, oh, you know, the great Satan, they're
not Americanized. And he said, what do you mean
by that sentence? And they said, oh, they don't
do drugs. They don't sleep around. They don't.
And he goes, oh, so in your mind, the word American
means sin. Right. You know, they're not sinners.
You know, when they said. And it bothered him.
Like, we have this very negative view. Like,
American is the devil. American is the enemy.
And what it creates is a very us versus them
culture, right? So then if they're all the bad
guys, then we need to isolate our kids, protect
our kids from them. And unfortunately, that just
approach just doesn't work because our kids like
it or not. If not this generation, the one after.
They are Canadian or American. And we have to
relate to them the way they need to be related
to and talk to the way they need to be talked
to. And preach just like Christ did and like
St. Paul did. Preach the gospel to them in a
way that they can understand. In the case of
Christ, really simple examples about farming
and fishing and stuff they got. And we have to...
continue to be innovative and and this is what
we see in the fathers you know the fathers were
so innovative right um they quoted modern people
they quoted modern thinkers modern right they
quoted philosophy Plato they knew that's what
the people understood and so they would teach
You know, Athanasius in particular would teach
through this philosophy and try to free the theology
from the philosophy and pull it all out. So this
is ultimately the big vision of what we're trying
to do. Absolutely. And this is exactly the kind
of thing I see in my own ministry, that in some
people, their vision of the larger community
is that, no, the... This is evil. This is something
that we just need to isolate from. But at the
same time, the irony is that this is the place
that you left everything to immigrate to. And
in the minds of most people, the West is Christian.
So it's kind of like a paradox or there's inconsistency
there. How is it that you chose to leave? the
the the comfort and safety and the relative you
know spirituality of the east of egypt and then
come to a place where you know this kind of stuff
is happening why would you put your family in
that in that kind of place so it doesn't really
make sense right and the point of uh of us being
here is almost always lost like i'm here for
me to take as much of this place as i can it's
for my own benefit but as you can see like we're
This is the water we swim in now. We're all westernized
to one degree or another, to one level or another,
in one way or another. This is how we think.
And we need to take that seriously rather than
thinking that this is something that I need to
weed out of my children. Rather that the question
is like, what am I called to do here? What's
the point of me being here? It's not just because
somehow I won the lottery and I got it. a visa,
a ticket to America or to Canada if I couldn't
get into America. And then, you know, that's
it. But there's a reason I'm here. And I think
some of those reasons are, you know, we talked
about it a little bit general, but in the vision
statement of the ministry, it gets a little bit
more detailed. So when you say things like, you
know, we need to speak with them as they see
themselves, as they are, meet the people where
they are, How do you flesh this out? What exactly
do you mean by that? I mean, you know, this is
a great point because, you know, when we immigrated
to the United States, we came as immigrants.
We didn't come as missionaries. Had we come as
missionaries, and so like when the Coptic Church
goes to any other country, it doesn't go to conquer
another country. It goes and, you know, you look
at what they're doing in Africa, right, for example.
It's presenting, you know, Kenyans, for example,
with orthodoxy and letting them be Kenyan. and
not trying to convert them to being cops. And
so we have to, as Christians, I mean, that's
the Great Commission. We're to go and baptize
all nations in the name of the Father, the Son,
and the Holy Spirit. And so we have a responsibility
as Christians not to isolate. I mean, we are
called to be the light of the world. We're not
called to isolate. And in the history of the
church, starting with the apostles, and we're
an apostolic church, starting with the apostles,
they were just spreading out everywhere, talking
and preaching and being light to this world.
And so this is a duty that we have. It isn't
so much even, you know, we need to protect ourselves.
No, no, it's the opposite. We need to go into
the world. And this large fear of us versus them,
you know, it paralyzes us, right? And at its
core, it's actually not Christian, you know,
to say an us versus them. It's all us. There
is no them. You know, we're all God's sons and
we're all sinners and we're all broken and we
all need each other in different ways. So I think
that the first... way that we start this process
is is seeing the world around us for actually
what it is the reality is there is no enemy here
right these are these are the sons of god just
like i'm the sons of god you know christ didn't
come for the the northeast corner of africa you
know um he came for the whole world you know
saint athanasius says his arms were open when
he was crucified you know so um that's the that
that i think is our first objective is is once
we can stop demonizing everyone else um uh it
works and and i think part of the issue that
we found is many parents have tried this approach
and you know we you know i was you know i was
born in jersey city you know 54 years ago right
and and i've watched generations of people lost
you know i think of my own youth group growing
up lost right because All we did is demonize
the outsiders. Don't be like the Americans. Americans
are bad. They're going to blah, blah, blah. And
then the kids go out in school and they're like,
you know, these kids aren't bad. Their parents
are really nice. This guy actually serves the
poor. And now you've spent all your time telling
everyone how bad these people are. And then they
realize you're wrong. And now you lose credibility
as a parent. And now the church loses credibility
because the church may have even, your Sunday
school teacher may have demonized everybody else.
And then you attend and you hear and you talk
and you're like, these people are great. So that
ability to just see God's image in everybody,
I think that's that first step. And Christ took
it to the extreme and he said, not only just
everybody, the enemy. The enemy you have to love,
right? And that's the guy who's got a sword who's
coming at you. You know, forget, you know, the
liberals or the whatever community. So I think
that has to be our first step is just to remove
that. You know, that's why when we started our
American Coptic churches in Los Angeles, you
know, we're very particular to put the word American
in the name. And to a lot of people, this was
scandalous. It's kind of like saying American
Coptic is the same as saying devil Christ. How
could you put those two together? But Satan was
very purposeful. He's like, we need to destigmatize
that word. By putting it in the name. By putting
it in the name. Because we're all Americans.
And we're citizens of this country. And he always
quotes Pope Shenouda, who used to talk about
how cops love their country of Egypt. That was
okay. And if he said, can I take what Pope Shenouda
said and just replace the word America, since
that's where I live now, or Canada, and we should
be able to do that. If we truly are a Catholic
Church, as we say, if we're a universal church
and not, again, limited to a particular country,
then we need to be able to adapt and go anywhere.
And if we can't, and all we can do is isolate
ourselves and huddle around our old culture and
our own traditions and ourselves. Then we may
suffer the fate of some of these other Eastern
Orthodox churches who have come before us. Some
of those, like the Russian church, it was decimated
at some point. There's nobody in it but three
old ladies for a while just because they insisted,
no, no, no, we're Russians. We pray Russian,
we sing Russian. Everything. And all their kids
are like, actually, we're not Russian. That's
the outcome. So it behooves us, it helps us to
look at history. Forget long -term history, just
the history of America and what worked and what
didn't. And not make the same mistakes. Because
our churches are packed because of immigration.
But they won't be for long. Can we take that
as a sign that we're doing something right? It's
bolstered by immigration as soon as it slows
down. And in some cases, starting to reverse
where people are like, hey, you know what? Life
in Egypt, if I can get a salary from the U .S.
and get paid in Canadian dollar and live in Egypt,
that's the dream. Yeah. Yeah. And so, you know,
the churches are full. There's lots of money.
Everyone's happy. But, you know, to use an expression
I heard, it's like there's internal bleeding
and the patient looks fine. Right. You don't
see any blood on the outside. there's internal
bleeding and something bad's happening yeah and
you know i mean i i talk with so many people
and i'm sure you come up i mean so many kids
are just slow exodus right in their 20s they
just kind of drift away like slow and silent
slow and silent silent exodus um and it's uh
and because the churches are full we're not noticing
as much uh it takes a lot of work to get those
youth back and um but that's our that's our future
and we have to be aware because You know, when
you're successful, that's the most dangerous
time, right? It's because then you take your
eye off the corner. What's coming around the
corner, you know, churches are full, lots of
money, we're building buildings, wonderful. That's
when you're most vulnerable if you're not seeing
what's coming next. Because you tend to look
at short -term things and short -term objectives
because what's happening right now is great and
I have all of... all these people in the church
every Sunday. So that's great. But what's coming
around the corner should be of great concern
to all of us, right? And we do hear that a lot.
I mean, in conversations, especially with young
people that come and ask, you know, my friends
from school are good people. They're not as bad
as you described them. They're not as bad as
you said they were. It's not all bad outside
and all good inside. In fact, some of my friends
from outside of the church are better than my
friends inside the church. And this reminds me
of this Russian Gulag survivor, Shulnitsyn, after
he came out of the... of the work camp in Siberia
and he returned to his Orthodox faith and he
wrote his memoirs. He said, I discovered, I thought
it used to, the line separating good and evil,
you know, runs between countries or between people,
you know, between the guards and the prisoners,
between those in power and those who are being
oppressed. It doesn't. It runs through our very
hearts. Every heart has good and evil. And unfortunately,
if we have this impression of the West that it's
dark and it's evil and we even see it. in the
doxology of St. Athanasius, the dark west. It's
enshrined in our prayers. But at the same time,
this is where we chose to come. This is where
we are choosing to live. And if this is how we
see it, then it's logical that we're going to
be isolating and staying in our ethnic enclaves
and staying within that bubble and trying to
recreate a piece of back home for the sake of
not having to interact. with outside world so
like you were saying like we didn't come as missionaries
we we came as immigrants and as immigrants seeking
a better life and the anything that threatens
that vision that dream is a problem right anything
that takes our focus off of that dream is a problem
so uh you know the great commission And while
great, it's secondary to the primary goal of
why we're here. We're here to make a great life
for ourselves. And if we're able to put a light
on that and reverse that and say, no, our focus
is not economic prosperity, but it's the Great
Commission. We start to see the image of God
in every single person that we meet. Well, and
the sad part is so many people, they come for
the wealth and the prosperity and they achieve
it. And then they lose their kids. And then it's
like, what did we do all this for? My sons or
whatever, my daughters, whatever. And I've lost
them and they're drug addicts or they're married
outside the church or they don't come anymore.
And so it actually turns out if you want to capture
your kids, you have to be that example, right?
They have to see you. in love with Christ, not
just in love with preserving a heritage of, you
know, what we did in Chopra. And if we can just
do it like we did in recreate Chopra, we win,
you know, they need to see you serving, they
need to see you loving, they need to see you
helping people. And that's the impression, right?
So, you know, it turns out when you When you
take your eye off the ball and the Great Commission
becomes number two, you actually might lose your
kid too, you know, and despite gaining. And then
you feel, you know, at the end of your life,
like, why did I come here and why did all this
happen? What's the point of all of this? What's
the point of all this, you know? Absolutely.
So I want to just pause for a second and go back
to something you said about the time you spend
researching why kids are leaving church. And
you said you distilled it down to nine and ten
points. If you're able to take us briefly through
those, that would be great. Or at least highlights
of those. Yeah. Okay. Let me see if I can think
of them. There's several of them. I think the
big ones come down to... Seeing the church as
a means, sorry, as the end, as the goal. A lot
of the youth see things as being overly ritualistic
and losing the focus on what really matters.
And it turns out it's sort of a good sign when
our kids say, you know what, we're doing all
these things, but there's no love in your heart,
Dad. You know, where's the caring for the poor?
Where's the, where's the things that Christ said
in Matthew 25? Um, that means you raise them
right. You know, that means that's a good thing,
you know? And, um, and I think sometimes they
get, uh, disillusioned when they see us, the
adults not focused on those things. And they're
like, you know, I'm reading my Bible, like you
told me, and I'm actually reading it. I think
better than you are dad and mom. And, uh, and
this is what. This is what I'm seeing, but I'm
not seeing it in you. I'm not seeing it in the
services. I'm not seeing it. So that's one reason.
Another one is they're looking for an example
of Christ in the church. Someone who will...
Be that light to them, just an example of what
it's supposed to look like. And it doesn't take
many. You know, you can have a church full of
people judging you and all this other stuff.
But man, there's that one guy every Sunday, he
sees you and he gives you that hug and he really
wants to hear about your week. And you almost
want to go just to see that one person, you know,
and we can all think of that one Sunday school
teacher that changed us and not because they
gave good lessons, you know, because they loved.
And I don't remember any of my other Sunday school
teachers. Or do I remember any of the lessons?
But I remember he loved me. And those are the
kinds of touches that they're really looking
for. Another reason people leave is they view
the church as bigoted, homophobic, racist. And
there's aspects of that, unfortunately, that
I would say are true. There's some language I'll
hear sometimes. And let me step back here. When
I say the church, I usually don't mean the church.
I mean... the parents right forgive me um and
uh the they hear things from the parents about
uh you know homosexuals or about black people
or about whatever it's and it's just over the
top and unfortunately because of the cultural
the way the culture is it the parents don't see
it they're like well you know what's wrong with
saying those things but when you live in a multicultural
society like you know canada or the united states
you know we've been taught from the early ages
you must tolerate everyone every religion every
language every color every everything right otherwise
we all just start fighting you know right that's
how a multicultural has to stay together we tolerate
everyone there's no right or wrong um and then
you come along and you say well you know all
black people are whatever right it's like holy
moly you know i can't believe you just said that
yeah so that's another thing uh that that's that's
perceived that way um a lot of youth have very
judgmental experiences at church. They're scared
of the people at church. They're scared of being
found out at church. I know parents that tell
their kids don't post anything on Instagram because
what if someone at church sees it? Which means
the person you're scared of is the body of Christ
that's standing next to you on Sunday. That's
your biggest fear on earth. And so this whole
idea of let's look at perceptions and what are
people going to think of us and our family and
our reputation. This stuff is destroying families
completely. And so then you become scared of
the people at church. You're judged by the people
at church. And then after a while, you get in
your 20s and you're like, I'm not interested.
And this is why, and I can speak, I don't know
how it is in Canada, but in... la you have a
lot of kids who college kids who they their best
friends aren't coptic their best friends are
at school their roommate in college in the dorm
someone in class because they don't want to tell
the coptic kid something because that if that
coptic kid tells his mom his mom's going to tell
planet earth you know so you got to hide stuff
from the coptic kids right so your good friends
are not coptic My Coptic friends, I keep them
on a short leash, on a need -to -know basis,
right? Very few I trust. And eventually, even
the ones I trust burn me and talk because we
have a gossip culture. So then it creates very
superficial relationships between the youth.
There's no, you know, like the way St. James
talks about the church of confess your sins to
one another, right? Of this community of... believers
of sinners who opened up to one another and love
and try to help each other like a real community
in christ right um you know they don't have that
they have the you know how are you good how are
you good the fake stuff the superficial stuff
and then you go into the houses and the homes
and it's a fire you know it's a disaster um but
people aren't talking and all of a sudden you
hear oh we're getting divorced it's like we had
no idea there was a problem well i was scared
to tell you i'm fighting with my husband because
you're gonna gossip and so i don't have a community
you know and so the youth really don't react
well to that because in western society we don't
have that kind of stigma you know like you'll
you'll meet someone you'll just meet him like
two days and he'll go yeah you know i'm an alcoholic
i'm a recovering alcoholic and he'll just say
that yeah you know no No Egyptian guy will tell
you I'm a recovering alcoholic at church, right?
He's just not going to bring that up. Because
that threatens that sanitized image, right? Exactly,
right? And then my kids won't get married because
abuham, you know, khumargi or whatever, right?
So that kind of openness and transparency, that's
something in Western culture. It's actually very
nice. It's very freeing and you know what you're
getting and no one's trying to play games and
no one's trying to hide anything. um you know
you don't get that and so the kids are used to
that openness and then they come to church and
everybody's locked down their parents are scaring
them don't wear this the people will talk about
you you know and then we impose things and we
say okay dress really good for church so that
people don't talk about you you know instead
of saying dress really respectful for church
because you're standing before god and do this
from your heart and dress wear whatever you want
but do it from your heart for god that's a beautiful
way to say it versus the people are going to
talk about you and have a reputation. And even
if people don't talk, when you're thinking that
way, you're going to see every look, every gesture.
That's judgment. Yeah, you've taught the girl,
every time a tant or someone turns around at
you, oh, there she goes judging you, she's going
to talk about you. And I've had young girls say,
I stood there at a wedding, and I just felt 30
eyes behind me. And I think half of it was in
her imagination. Doesn't matter. Her mom has
fed her that everyone there is out to get you.
And this is not the loving community. This isn't
the hospital St. John Chrysostom talked about.
Exactly. It's more like a courthouse. It's a
courthouse, exactly. And there's actually some
similarities between this book I read recently,
You Lost Me. And it talks about why young Christians
are leaving church and rethinking faith. And
some of those reasons you mentioned. are highlighted
in the book as well so the church overprotective
relationships are shallow repressive anti -science
exclusive the church is doubtless meaning does
not allow them to express their doubts right
they feel the the church's response to doubt
is um that you can be talking about doubt right
and It's these things that keep coming again
over and over in research, in surveys, Barna
Group, Pew Research. This stuff keeps happening.
But there's a tendency to think, not us, never
us. This is other churches that have to deal
with these issues. The Coptic Orthodox Church
is strong, is protected by God from all of this.
But in reality, we have... We're all swimming
in the same water and our children are facing
these issues. And if we don't come face to face
with them, if we're hiding from them or pretending
that they don't exist, I don't see any other
way it could end. But services like this that
tackle these things, these very uncomfortable
ideas head on, this is exactly what's needed
to move the conversation forward. I mean, I think
that's actually one of the other things that
came up in the surveys is, you know, sexual topics,
for example, very taboo. We don't talk about
them. And I think we sometimes, you know, have
a misguided understanding and saying, you know,
well, if I talk to someone about. homosexuality,
if we talk about this topic, what if the kids
want to try it out and become gay or something?
It just doesn't work like that. And so I think
the youth are very keen of what we are and are
not talking about. And they notice we're not
talking about things. And like you mentioned,
science. And sometimes you'll hear people just
attack evolution as if it's from the devil. And
there's nothing to hide from Darwin's theories.
And without getting into it, they're fine. Natural
selection, sure. The bird with the big beak can
eat, and the bird with the small beak can't,
so the bird with the small beak dies. That's
not going to threaten my belief in God in any
way. And when our kids see us scared, Of evolution,
scared of these things. They're kind of curious,
why are you so scared? And when they see us fearless,
they're not. My son was in eighth grade and he
came up to me and said, I don't know if I believe
in God because my biology teacher taught us about
evolution. And I had to take a deep breath. That's
not something you want to hear your eighth grader
say. And I took a deep breath and I was like,
oh yeah, evolution. Natural selection, survival
of the fittest. He goes, oh, you know about those.
And I go, of course. And I told him all about
it. I said, those are fine. There's nothing wrong
with those. Those are great theories. And does
that mean there's no creator? I don't think so.
In fact, it's not scientific for you to extrapolate
from those theories to say there is no creator.
And I talked about the hypothesis development
and the scientific method. And he's like, oh,
you heard about it. So when he saw me calm, he
was calm. And he wasn't scared. He saw I wasn't
scared of these things. And so he wasn't scared
of these things. So I don't know if I got off
on that. No, but that's perfect. Because you
taught him more by how you responded rather than
just the content of the response. But how you
responded, that was an equally important lesson.
You know, and if I'd gone off and like these
teachers are teaching you, they're from the devil.
Call the principal. I'm going to pull you out
of the class. I'm going to embarrass you. So
then the kid goes, oh, okay, I'm not going to
talk to my dad about this topic anymore because
he's kind of crazy, right? So I'm going to, this
topic is off limits for my dad. Oh, no, no, dad,
I believe in God. Don't worry about it. Yes.
And I'm not going to talk to you about it, right?
And so we've actually taught them not to talk
to us by our reactions. Right. You know, and
so this is, I think, you know. Again, one of
the many things. And so that's why the ministry
now has moved into, because when Satan started,
he said, start with the 22s and up. And I was
like, Satan, the problem started in eighth grade.
It didn't start at 22. When they left isn't when
the problem started. So if you can get to the
kid before that, and you get to the parent before
that, and try to give them these tips and try
to help them out, at least try a different approach
than what did work in Egypt. And it did. It was
successful. But it worked in that culture because
that culture thought a certain way. And so it
worked beautifully. And there was a reason it
worked in Egypt. And it actually evolved in Egypt
to work. They tried different things that didn't
work. And this is the one that worked. And so,
you know, when someone says, well, it's worked
for 2 ,000 years, you know, in Egypt, why, you
know, it should work here. It's like, well, you
know, we moved, right? And in the history of
the church, right, it doesn't happen ever that
a church, you know, is integrated in a culture
for 2 ,000 years and then just switches continents
like that. That's never happened. That's an experiment
we've never seen before. So culture and religion
always mix. And that's healthy and it's beautiful.
And we express our Christianity culturally. You
go to Ethiopia, it looks Ethiopian. You go to
Russia, it looks Russian. You go to Syria, it
looks Syrian. You go to Egypt, it looks Egyptian.
It's beautiful. That's the way it should be.
But now you're... in America or Canada. And so
it's got to look American, right? And you can't
be scared of that sentence because that's the
way it is in every other country. I mean, if
history will tell us anything, in Syria when
the Arabs came, by the 8th century, they had
a Syrian Bible. For us in Egypt, it wasn't until
the 10th century. So we had a couple of hundred
years to see if this whole Arab thing is going
to stick around or maybe they'll move on. Something
else will happen. So we don't have to translate.
We kept things in Coptic. But we begin to see
these Copto -Arabic translations and writings
pop up around the 10th century. So does that
mean we have to wait a couple of hundred years
to see? authentic American orthodoxy. And part
of the context, it's important to highlight that
in Egypt, when the Sunday school movement began
to take root, Egypt is very, it's bicultural.
The dividing line is very clear. We know where
we are, where the other camp is, Christians and
Muslims and relations. questions that keep popping
back and forth between the two camps and what
to say and the mentality is that no no it's not
about interaction it's about knowing how to defend
that line how to stay on your line and not to
lose any ground to the other camp but here in
in america especially in canada is very multicultural
yeah you know how many lines are around you that
you must maintain. What are you going to say
to this group of people? In GTA alone, in the
greater Toronto area, we have over 70 languages
being spoken. Imagine how many groups and how
many ideas about things and about life and about
God and about everything surround us and how
you intelligently and thoughtfully interact with
all of these rather than just being, I'm scared
of everyone, I'm just going to keep everyone
out, I'm going to stay within my own bubble.
my own echo chamber and just hear my own voice
being echoed back to me. I mean, a very simple
example where we're, we're building a church
in our church in LA and, and the, the, you know,
I'm on the board and we discussed putting up
a fence around the church and, you know, St.
Paul's right at St. Paul's. Yeah. And, and, and,
you know, and then lots of churches, there's
a fence, you know, and you go to Egypt, there's
a big fence with, you know, steel. swords on
top of it right and it's like this is us and
you guys stay outside right you know but when
i drive around the united states and i look at
lots of different churches there's no fences
it's open the parking lot's open it's welcoming
there isn't this big wall between us and them
with not a gated community exactly right it's
like welcome come we're part of the community
Whereas our churches feel sometimes like, okay,
we're in your community, but we don't want you
in here. And we're Egyptian here. And if you're
not, if you're one of those other 230 countries,
we're not really interested. And that's the feeling
you get. And it's difficult to understand that
when you're in it. But I always give people the
thought experiment. I say, walk into a Chinese
church. Just go in there. And I'm sure everyone's
talking Chinese. And you walk up to a conversation.
It's all Chinese in the hall. And then someone
looks at you and goes, oh, hi, welcome, happy
you're here. And then they turn around and they're
talking Chinese. You're not going to stay there
very long, right? I mean, two or three weeks.
And you'll be like, hey, I don't think this is
the church for me. I'm not fitting in. I don't
fit in here, right? And they're nice. They didn't
do anything wrong. They're not trying to alienate
you. And I think we have to realize that when
people from the outside come into our churches,
that's how they feel. No one's trying to alienate
them. But it can be exclusionary, just the language,
just the gates, the fences, the certain things
are, this is, you know. Not for everybody. All
these obstacles that you must overcome before
you're accepted into the group. And then, you
know, what happens when you have this discussion
is people quickly say, oh, okay, so do you want
to just give up the sacraments now and become
Protestant? And you're like, eh, habibi. Like
taking it to the extreme. Who said any of these
things? Like equating, you know, the Coptic.
with the sacrament exactly and and it's like
no you know i mean saint mark when he came to
egypt he picked up these high you know uh these
pharaonic hymns i mean let's think about this
pharaonic hymns that's paganism right and these
things are from the devil and he said you guys
have these devil hymns no problem these are pharaonic
worship songs let's let's let's use them I mean,
if we did that now, people would go crazy. Right.
Of course, right. But look at the open -mindedness
of how you approach another country. So you go
in and you morph into their culture, not try
to isolate yourselves from it. Right. I mean,
it's hard to do that when you actually know very
little about the culture. You're engaged on a
very superficial level with the culture. And
then you try to separate, you know, the wheat
from the chaff. You're trying to separate what
is elements that are, you know, light bearing
or capable of bearing the light of the gospel
from elements that really just all darkness.
And you throw the baby with the bathwater and
you just it's easier, more comfortable to say,
like, I don't want any of this. Just get rid
of it all. And, you know, the funny thing is,
you know, so like in the 1970s, when people first
immigrated. uh to the united states and you know
my dad came in 1968 or something wow the church
there's two extremes that evolved and back then
that a more popular extreme was hey we're american
now forget the coptic church let's break away
let's do protestant songs let's do worship let's
do blah blah blah right so either extreme is
dangerous right which is the let's you know let's
throw everything out and and just dissolve into
this culture versus the let's completely isolate
from this culture and i think the process that
you're talking about is going to take a while
like we have to be thoughtful about it and think
about it prayer prayerfully look at every little
piece of it and say, is this a good thing or
a bad thing? Is this beautiful or not? And there
can be elements of beauty in things that are
secular. And this is what we saw the ancient
fathers, St. John Chrysostom, St. Athanasius,
do all the time in their writings, is find beauty,
godly beauty in the secular. And so plenty of
that is here. There's plenty of Christmas carols
that are just... beyond deep beyond beautiful
like really amazing theology so enlightening
you know and then there's you know the the reindeer
and the and the christmas tree and whatever right
so you know does that either extreme is christmas
carols are haram okay bad extreme or let's just
sing rudolph the red -nosed reindeer in church
yeah both of them are during the distribution
yeah they're both bad solutions right but so
either extreme it's always in the middle right
and i think we we but we need to allow we need
to allow ourselves that that opening to say can
i look for good here and be very rooted and and
this is where why education is so important it's
very rooted in your orthodoxy and i find that
when people go to seminary and they really read
and they really learn they become more open -minded
not less because they understand okay the church
is very adaptive you know you know when you hear
someone say like oh this is the way we've done
it since the time of the apostles well you know
that's not true right anyone who's read a book
knows that's not true and so then that's just
ignorance speaking and then as soon as i do read
a book i realize oh that's wrong you know so
i think education is is the solution here education
and spirituality right and you know learn about
your faith learn what's right and what's wrong
and don't equate things you know like if i if
i get rid of this then i might as well get rid
of the eucharist well what happened you know
why are you saying these crazy things so and
you know the sunday school really something very
new mm -hmm we did not have it since the time
of the Apostles it has not been in Egypt for
2 ,000 years doesn't mean the education is in
their religious education upbringing and formation
was in there no it was there it just wasn't done
this way and the reason it's done this way is
important to consider whether it still makes
sense again made sense in the mid 20th century
Egypt does it still make sense in 21st century
multicultural America I agree with you a thousand
percent. We have to ask that question. But to
be honest, when I read this in Exerium, and this
is my little rant that I have to do in every
episode, is that I see that parents taught the
child the ways of God. Parents taught the child
the books of the church. I never see parents
took the children to someone to teach them. We
have that. very important vocation of being incarnating
the light of the gospel in the lives of the children
right and if we don't do if we outsource it if
we just tell them you know get someone else to
teach you i'll be the chauffeur i'll drive you
to church and they can teach you something drops
in all of this then it just becomes like this
head knowledge faith is just about knowing some
facts and information dissemination and basically
once you have the right amount of information
that's good enough that's really all that religious
upbringing is all about just having the right
information whereas uh when we read the history
of the church and especially in the cynic serum
especially and the lives of the saints we see
that it did not happen this way you know they
had an example at home they had a mom and dad
who would pray they had a mom and dad who would
give alms they had a mom and dad who would forgive
and they had a mom who would practice the virtues
right it's not just about taking them to sunday
school yeah no i i agree a thousand percent with
that i mean when when uh You know, Habib Gerges,
St. Habib Gerges and Pope Shenouda and Zergey,
you know, they started this Sunday school movement.
It was in a time of massive ignorance in the
church. You know, the priests were ignorant.
They didn't give sermons. There weren't any books.
People were illiterate. It was a bad time in
the church. And they were solving that problem.
And again, this is the beauty of tradition, right?
Tradition is not the same as imitation. You don't
just do what the, you know, if they had stopped
and said, well, you know, the apostles didn't
have Sunday school, so we're not going to have
Sunday school. I mean, no, they saw a problem
and they innovated, you know, they fixed it.
And this kind of this closed mindedness of tradition
is imitation is dangerous, right? Because it's
not the history of the church. It's not orthodoxy.
In fact, you know, when you look at the Quran,
it's not one word of the Quran is to be changed,
altered, edited, deleted, added to blah, blah,
blah. And then you say, oh, is this where we're
getting our thinking about tradition? We're not
one word. I have to give it exactly as I received
it. Well, that's not necessarily true. if what
with the situation has changed you know um you
know the example that you know that you know
ambassador up you'd actually you know said to
me was like look at saint anthony he's like he
invented monast he didn't you know he just made
it up he just started it and then the church
saw it he didn't go and get you know approval
from the synod and you know and he innovated
and that innovation caught on you know right
um and people imitated obviously so You know,
going back to Sunday school, you know, not only
does the cynics are, you know, it doesn't even
just say taught them. It didn't say speak about
God. They lived it. And the kids breathed it.
And they knew that their parents didn't talk
badly about people. And they saw people coming
over their house at 1 o 'clock in the morning
because they're fighting with their spouse and
their mom handling the situation and bringing
in this person who's a beggar off the street.
And that's what they saw. They saw their parents
live it, not just talk about it, not just say,
go to Sunday school. I'm going to go to Starbucks.
And when Sunday school's over, call me. And I'll
come get you. I'm going to go to my own thing.
And so that constant kind of innovation, that's
truly traditional. That's what the church always
does. And we needed information dissemination
back then because there was no books in the country.
So these people would drive to a central location,
read a book, write it down on a piece of paper,
and then drive to whatever village and say the
words. But now I've got Google. I've got every
book known to man on PDF. We have a flood of
information. Information is not our problem anymore.
So Sunday school is kind of solving that issue.
Let's tell the kids a Bible story. All these
kids, their parents read Bibles at home. There's
tons of kids' Bibles and picture Bibles and all
the videos and games and puzzles, everything.
Now the kids' issues, it's depression, it's anxiety,
it's loneliness. These are the issues of our
day. The issues of the day, that's what I was
going to say. And we need to pivot. We can't
just say, well, this is what worked. It worked
in the 50s in Egypt, but we have a different
issue now. If I want a lesson on St. Athanasius,
I'll Google it. There's a one -page summary,
a 10 -page summary, and a 1 ,000 -page summary,
and everything in between. And that word that
you started, like, if. yeah if i want exactly
right if i want do i do i want do i want and
so inspiration is the key now right if i can
inspire the kid and feel love in me and and he
gets that spark of the holy spirit sky's the
limit kid can be a phd scholar whatever right
after being a drug addict But we have to give
them that spark. And the spark, and what all
the kids are saying, especially in these surveys,
is I want to see a spark in someone else. And
that spark is infectious. And it just communicates
itself from person to person. And you see this.
You see someone like Abunabshoi Kamen. He goes,
everyone around him becomes a priest, bishop,
or a monk. It's like, what happened? He infected
them all with that spark of the Holy Spirit.
absolutely so clearly this ministry is not one
of those safe ministries where it's straightforward
what to do how to address issues that you're
constantly getting challenged with very complex
issues and how to deal with them you know must
place a lot of weight on your shoulders how do
you navigate all the complexities i mean it it
can be easy it can be simple straightforward
um It isn't. You know, there's lots of opinions.
And, you know, I have to say that a huge, huge
part of this is his eminence, Ambassador Opion.
He's so supportive and so encouraging. And I
won't share all the things he says when we meet
privately, but he's very encouraging. One of
the things he said, he's the one who said that
example about internal bleeding. He said, some
people, when you say, look, that guy over there
is bleeding. They're looking for blood. They
don't see blood. They're like, he's not bleeding.
There's no problem. I don't see the problem.
But you do see the problem. So you have to, as
a doctor, address that problem. Because you know
that guy's about to drop. And so the encouragement
is always, you just do what's right. And you
can't necessarily wait for consensus. This is
a safe place, if you will, to innovate. I run
everything by him. I run everything by his greatest
bishop, Kryllos, as well. I have a group of people
that I trust dearly, a few clergy, a few lay
people. we think a lot about everything and we
talk a lot about everything and we, you know,
we sift through it. And of course, we're going
to make lots of mistakes. And, you know, someone's
going to say, that's a really bad idea. And I'm
going to say, you're probably right. Then we'll
probably scrap it. And there's already been a
few ideas we've thought about and just scrapped
or sidelined for another time. And so I think,
you know, one of the beautiful things about the
way. I keep talking about the LA Diocese, I'm
sorry, but the way it's sort of managed is it's
managed like a portfolio, right? There is no
single solution here, right? You have people
that were in Egypt two days ago, and there's
people who were on the streets of Canada and
America two days ago who are new to the church
and married an Egyptian or whatever. You can't
serve them the same. And then everything in between.
The person's been here five years, 10 years,
15 years, 20 years. They're all different. So
the best solution isn't trying to find a solution.
It's to find a portfolio of solutions, right?
Everyone serves in different ways. And the people
who have that need will gravitate toward that
service. So you don't have to limit it. Because
we're in a 50 -year transition period, right?
This is going to take a while to flesh out. There's
all levels. And so you just have to meet everyone
where they're at the way Christ did. It's just
a challenging time for the church. And I think
we're doing a decent job meeting the people who
come from Egypt, serving them the way they were
served in Egypt. And that's what they want. And
that's what they deserve. And that's what they
should get. I'm all for Arabic liturgies. In
fact, I love Arabic liturgies personally. But
that's the language. That's how they pray. And
don't ever take that away from them. In our diocese,
we have Arabic youth meetings. And they're youth
meetings for kids in their 20s, 30s. And they
speak Arabic. And that's their primary language.
And when they go to the English meeting, and
you can make the argument they need to learn
English, they need to adapt. They go to the English
meeting, and people make fun of their accent.
And they're not funny. And their jokes don't
land. They just don't fit in. And so I actually
personally, I love to go to the Arabic retreats.
I give talks in Arabic. And I enjoy that vibe.
It's a very energetic vibe. And we're meeting
them. That's their need. Yeah, they'll be American
someday. And when they are, they'll go to the
other meeting. And so I don't think there is
a solution. you know there's just a ton and the
the more solutions you can put out there you're
gonna find a small pocket of people you know
like this um like the his beloved group that
we that we have right this is a group for you
know uh people who are lgbtq and and struggling
and um it's a support group we meet twice you
know once every two weeks and um you know it's
again it's not for everybody it's for a very
small pocket it's a group of lepers you know
who can't come to church or you know are known
or ostracized and so we reach out and find them
where they are you know and and so i think that's
kind of the key is to is to produce as many services
as possible um and if someone says well you know
that's we don't need that you know the answer
is someone may need that right and if a small
enough group of a group needs it then we'll we'll
try to provide something right you know for that
group and i can imagine you know a lot of trust
and and is required for a meeting for a service
like this yeah and anonymity perhaps is also
absolutely yeah so you know i'll i'll do a shameless
plug the group is called his beloved website
hisbeloved .co and uh it's a support group and
and obviously confidentiality is a huge part
of it everybody in the group actually knows everyone
like they they they don't hide their cameras
and they don't hide their names they're actually
um you know open with with one another and it's
it's it's the most beautiful service i'm a part
of because you know here's a group of people
who's really really struggling and they want
to be true to their faith they want to and and
they don't you know want to be like this and
and you know we don't it's not conversion therapy
we're not trying to change them we're not trying
to shame them and you know we just offer them
the gospel we present christ to them and we meet
them where they are and we're there and we're
just going to walk on that journey with them
And that's all we can do, you know. And just
be friends, you know. And it's, again, a community
of sinners. And we're all bound together, you
know, trying to help one another. And so, yeah.
there might be some people like, oh, look at
what these people are, you know, and, and, you
know, our community loves to fill in the blanks
right there. They're supporting whatever and
they're, you know, and people can say whatever
they want. Right. But again, having the, the,
the blessing of, of Ambasarapio, you know, he
went through our website, you know, and, and
we've had, we have a different clergy member
attend every two weeks, every other meeting.
Sorry. So like Amba Krulos has attended and lots
of different priests have attended from all over
the country, actually. And from Canada. This
is an online meeting. It's online. It's on Zoom.
And so, yeah, we try to keep that connection,
of course, with the church, but at the same time
meet them where they are. And so, yeah, there's
lots of opinions out there. I can imagine. But
this is exactly what a group like this needs,
is a group, is a community. It's very lonely
and isolating trying to go through something
like this all on your own and trying to figure
out. How do I do this? How can I make it? If
I'm expected to do it by myself, I don't know
if I have the strength. And things can get very
dark very quick. But with a group, a service
like this, I can imagine that it gives hope.
It provides light. Before I move on to another
question, I want to move back to something. You
mentioned His Eminence a few times. And I've
met Sayyidina. A couple of times in the past,
he's a lovely person. And he has a vision about
what American Orthodox means. And this is something
I took from his inaugural message to the Rediscover
I Am on YouTube. He said the early immigrants,
they came, established churches. And how they
essentially established the churches was as their
churches in Egypt. But now with a new generation
coming. we have these issues coming not only
related to the language whether we use english
or not but also is related to the culture where
we are in this society and it was very simple
for the kids in early time of the immigration
to ask about their identity are we american or
egyptians now we are trying to solve this problem
by saying we are christian we are orthodox christian
we live in america and we are americans but what
is important is that we are christian orthodox
the challenge for us is how the faith which we
received from egypt how we present it without
any change in the american culture where we live
today how we express our orthodox faith in the
american culture discern or discernment is really
what's needed what is related to the culture
sayidna says and what is related to the faith
and from the culture here what is the positive
things in the culture and what are the negative
things in the culture which we have to overcome
so this is satan's vision this is how he's approaching
it that we're american we can't pretend that
we are in the diaspora and our roots lie in egypt
in the sense that we are egyptians but egyptians
living in america we are americans and we need
to see ourselves as this but there's another
vision and this is something that came up recently
and it you know it was something that happened
in canada and it was when his holiness visited
canada in 2014 and there was a story about One
of the churches he visited, he was here for about
a month, and he visited almost all the churches
in Canada, which is a huge feat. So one of the
churches, a youth choir presented, and one of
the songs was all about the trees in Canada and
the rivers in Canada and the weather in Canada.
And Sayyidina realized that there's nothing mentioned
about Egypt. There's a lack of connectedness.
There's no prayer about... you know egypt and
the nile and the weather in egypt nothing about
egypt so a lack of connectedness and this is
what prompted him to do the logos youth forum
where he invited youth from all over the world
in order to re -establish that connection with
egypt now whether or not this was effective and
how effective really is up for debate but you
see like it's a different approach like we are
egyptians living abroad or no we're american
that this is where we are and we need to meet
the people that expression you keep saying any
expression i heard from others as well if you
um be aware of um that was his thing that was
his motto meet the people where they are and
for for us living you know in the west thinking
of ourselves as easterners living in the west
or you know coming to the realization that we
actually live in the west this is where we are
this is how we see ourselves it's two different
visions there are some common elements but we
see something like the american or the establishment
of the american orthodox church and i remember
when that when news of that came out it was like
you mentioned it was scandalous it was something
like what's going on like are we abandoning the
faith are we no longer calling ourselves coptic
And this happened in L .A. and I believe also
happened in S .U .S. clubs with Mba Youssef.
And for something like this, to put American
in the name is not only, like you mentioned,
destigmatizing what we think of the West, what
we think of America, but it's also providing
this way of making a footprint that is uniquely
and authentically. American Orthodox. So in doing
this, do you find that the pushback on this idea
is coming from, well, rather than pushback, you
find acceptance for this idea limited to a certain
age group, or is it more widespread? how are
people receiving this idea? How have people received
it? I believe it's been in practice for a few
years now, for a number of years, maybe five
years? No, no, no. More? Oh, the American Coptic
Church. Yeah. No, our church is, ours is the
first church, the first American Coptic Church,
and we're 12 years old. 12 years old. Okay. So
how has this... So the American Coptic Church
experiment, I think is... If I had to characterize
it, I'd say it was successful. I think when we
first came out, it was scandalous, as I'm sure
you guessed. And people would just say all kinds
of things. But one of the things we focused on
at St. Paul's a lot was being very orthodox.
And so we actually focused more on... the teachings
of the fathers and sort of deep spirituality
and just simply didn't talk about culture. You
know, like the amount of debates every church
has about English versus Coptic versus Arabic.
I mean, how much time is wasted between deacons
and people and fighting. We just, we no longer
had to have that debate. So all that time, we
then shifted to, you know, a women's meeting
and a men's meeting and study of the fathers
and studies of the liturgy and kind of digging
deeper into the faith. So I think very quickly
people realized, oh, you know, in fact, you know,
as evidence, you know, what I was joking and
someone made a comment about the American church
or about our church. And he said, I love this
comment. He said, uh, the St. Paul's is the most
Orthodox church I have in my diocese. You know,
it's a beautiful little comment. And so, um,
I think that's people quickly realize, you know,
we're not out trying to change the world. And,
um, and we're also not saying that you have to
be like us, you know, we're not saying anyone
else is wrong. You know, it's a group of people
saying, this is how we want to worship. This
is just a small piece. And, you know, if you
don't want to, if that's not, that's great. You
know, you prefer Arabic. That's good. I prefer
English. That's good too, right? You know, just
like you prefer Arabic, I can prefer English.
And so that's it, you know. And so there isn't,
at some level, you know, when you attend an American
Coptic church, it's kind of, It's not a big deal.
It's anticlimactic. You get there and you're
waiting for fireworks to go off. I'm waiting
for the heresy. Yeah, and it's just an English
liturgy. Nothing has happened that's unique.
And we throw a few in. Disappointed. I didn't
see anything scandalous. Yeah, it's really nothing
exciting. But what's nice about it isn't the
liturgy. Every church has an English liturgy.
That's not a big deal. I mean, every church in
our diocese, it's really the hall after. Because
when you go in the hall after, everyone's speaking
English, you can relate to people, there are
people that you can find community with, that
understand you, that get your jokes, and that
you're funny too. And so you feel home. You feel
welcome. You know, like everybody's, oh, everyone's
like me. And that's it. That's the big difference.
So it isn't even the English part. I mean, it's
not like we teach anything or do anything different.
It's just the culture in the hall afterwards,
right? And so everyone is someone you can relate
to. And the youth like it because, you know,
there's a lot more harmony between the youth
and the adults because the adults are all like
me, you know, old men who grew up in the United
States. And, you know, we tell jokes and we know
who's playing on Sunday and we know what football's
going on. And, you know, we can talk about Taylor
Swift and we can do all the things. So I think
now I think it's settled down a little bit. I
don't think people see it as the threat that
it used to be. And now I think most of the new
churches that have started in the Diocese are
actually American churches. And we do find that
the youth, they kind of grow up in the traditional
church. I don't want to say traditional, another
church. A lot of them will sometimes just, as
they get married and they have kids, they'll
start to come to it. They gravitate towards it.
It's very, very slow, right? There wasn't a lot
of quick movement, which is good. The church
shouldn't have a lot of quick movement. It's
dangerous to move too quickly in the church.
It's a slow -moving thing. And so changes have
to be made slowly and methodically, and then
you make a change and then you wait. And then
you kind of watch how it happens, right? It's
kind of like a big oil tanker. You just can't
turn it very quickly. So you make a change, you
wait, you look at what things you didn't think
about, what are the unintended consequences,
what went right, what went wrong, and then you
adjust on the next one, right? And then that's
sort of the way you operate. And so even with
this ministry, we decided we had lots of ideas
of things to do, and we were just going to go
crazy. And then, like, no, we're going to do
three. this year you know and we're just going
to focus and and execute on each one slowly and
see how it's received and see what the feedback
is and and thank god you know most of the stuff
we're doing is on parenting and on relationships
and we see this as a big need there's just lots
of divorces and fights and all kinds of things
um and the reception has been very very good
like just overwhelmingly good And so we're happy
with that. And so we're continuing that. And
we're slowly kind of adding ministries one at
a time after we think about them carefully. through
your prayers and you know and god's grace we
yeah god yeah yeah so the the first one was the
parents ministry and focusing on that yeah yeah
so you know we started an instagram page uh rediscover
i am just one word there's another shameless
plug um and then the website rediscoveriam .org
i'm sure you'll post all these things but um
and then uh yeah the parenting ministry was was
very important because you know everyone's suffering
you know and um And, you know, we had already
started the His Beloved ministry. Was it also
part of the department? It got morphed into the
department because I was part of its launch,
you know, outside of before the department. This
was a few years ago when we launched His Beloved.
And then it just sort of, you know, melded its
way into the department. And so I think at some
level, it's sort of picking up different ministries
that have the same cohesive theme and it's organizing
them. You know, so, you know, we're trying and
we have lots of different ideas, especially around
new couples and premarital counseling. And that
seems to be like a focus that we're, you know,
really hitting because I think, you know, strong
families make strong churches, you know, and
like you said earlier, right? It's every story
in the cynics are. So if you can get the family
going and you got to teach them how to be. a
strong family when they're in the eighth grade
you know that's when it starts and if i don't
see that example at home to the best of the ability
the church can supplement and try to inject what
that looks like and if we can create these mature
emotionally spiritual people that eventually
become great husbands and great mothers and sacrificial
and christ -like then the kids just naturally
just you know you know uh you know when i do
with lemme has this great thing he says you know
you know um you know this you know upbringing
just gets absorbed by the kids you know so as
a parent you don't have to do much you just have
to be you just have to be you know and and the
kids just absorb it that's right they're not
going to listen to you as much as they follow
your examples yeah let's do it all in fact if
you say it they won't do it but if you do it
they'll do it they'll do it so parents is um
one of the areas that you focus on what are the
other two um well we also focus on cop the club
so the you know kind of that campus ministry
campus ministry how has that been um was it just
started with the uh launch of the department
or has it been no no it started um actually you
know a funny story ember is grace ember carlos
and i started cop the clubs at the same time
he started in ucla i started at cal poly pomona
in 1993. That's when you were in school, in college.
Yeah. So we, that was when the first Coptic clubs
started and then quickly after, you know, several
other Coptic clubs. And now I think we have like
16 Coptic clubs. Recently we're, we're organizing,
we've assigned the Coptic clubs into regions.
So there's three regions. All in LA. All in LA.
LA is a big place. So the Southern region, the
Eastern region and the Western region. And we've
also have, we now have two priests assigned to
each region. And the job of the priests, you
know, again, the Coptic Club isn't really part
of the church. It's the kids are doing it. And
we sort of want to protect that. Like, it's their
thing. And they're going to make mistakes, and
that's okay. We're going to let them learn and
grow. And the priest's job... Space for that.
Give them space, right? But the priest's job
is just to be there as a... to meet them where
they are, meet them on campus. So we encourage
the clergy to go meet them for confession, meet
them for coffee, show up to campus, pray liturgies
there, be a presence on the campus, not there
to get involved in the politics of the club or
the running or what should we do, not try to
control them, but rather just to serve them where
they are. And then we're looking at other ministries.
We're looking at creating a discipleship program
for, we think discipleship is key. And it's the
model that Christ used. It's the model that the
monks used. It's the model that the fathers used.
It's the model. Go and make disciples. It's more
straightforward than that. And it's what Jesus
did. And so right now our model is more of give
talks, give lessons, give classes, give lectures,
which is okay. And I think when the ratio of
speakers to... People served is not good. You
know, a lecture to 200 people is the most efficient
way to get there, right? I can't disciple 200
people. But as that number increases and I have
more people, then God willing, I can have more
discipleship and sort of break the world up into
smaller pieces. So one of the things we really
want to figure out how to do is add more discipleship
to the model. in particular um and whether that
be youth or even couples you know um i actually
got this idea from my my uncle uh abu antonius
in mansoura he did this 50 years ago he every
time a couple got married he would assign them
to a senior couple in the church and he said
you know you meet with them once a month you
guys have dinner if you have a problem they're
your first call and they mentored them you know
and He said his number of marital problems dropped
dramatically. Makes sense. And now it's creating
community, right? There's a bond between you
and another couple. And they don't have to be
old. They could be five, ten years married, whatever.
But just assigning them to someone, that's your
first line of defense, right? So we want to formalize
a program like that throughout the diocese, maybe
pilot it in a few churches. But if we can get
every church to pick four or five couples, and
when you get married, you say, here's your five
couples. Pick one, the one you're comfortable
with. And that's your mentors. And you can train
those couples and say, here's the things we elevate
to a buna. Here's the things you don't talk about.
Here's the things we don't get involved with.
If you see this. call us a therapist you know
so there's bigger but most things are you know
when the first that first couple years of marriage
he fights about this and then you know I'm upset
about that and then you just need someone to
tub tub and say it's okay you know like we fight
about the same things like oh okay this is normal
yeah helps put things in perspective everyone
calms down you know you know the Syriac Orthodox
Church they have that assigned senior couple
As part of the ceremony. Oh, wow. So they have
the couple standing before the altar with the
bride and groom. Really? And they also have prayers
for them. Really? And it's like sponsors for
the guardians for baptism. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
But they have them for the couple. Yeah, that's
perfect. And before the altar, they have this
responsibility given to them that you're going
to care for them. You're their sponsor. You need
to follow up with them and take care of them.
It's beautiful and it makes sense. It makes perfect
sense. No one knows how to be married until you're
married. And then you have all these questions.
Who do I go ask? I can maybe go ask Abuna, but
I can't ask him for every single question. And
that when you have a couple like that, it makes
perfect sense. I mean, and I think one of the
things that I see a lot is people don't want
to serve. They think a buna has to do everything.
And it's just not the case. I mean, the clergy's
job is the mysteries. It's the sacraments. And
outside of that, do they need to teach every
class at the seminary? No. You can have a scholar
who teaches something. Do they have to do your
kids on... on drugs do you call it no there's
there's a treatment center for that you know
you're having marital problems okay maybe there's
a spiritual component but the rest of it could
be couples therapy right so um this whole idea
of just going back to buna as as it it floods
abuna with stuff that doesn't necessarily have
to be him you know and i love the idea of anish
being you know um for uh for this maybe something
we can right you know and and the role of deacon
What I see mostly today is that the deacon is
just a liturgy helper, like communion helper.
That's about it. Whereas, you know, serving table
and serving, you know, the widows. And there's
a huge diaconal service ministry that is part
of this rank. And we're leaving all this undone.
falls usually back on abuna to manage it to handle
it to assign someone to do it um you're a deacon
you're an archdeacon so what does that mean what
does that entail in terms of services within
the community within the church so you do speak
um how how is it that the diaconal service kind
of plays out in your day -to -day I mean, I would
say that probably most of the archdeacons in
our diocese, I think we have like 20, you know,
sort of fit the mold that you talked about. They're
usually older and their job is primarily communion,
you know, giving the blood. And recently, you
know, Sedna has ordained now one or two of us
who our job is more about service and to truly
be a servant of the people. And so, you know,
I always kind of envision. the the the deacon
if you look at it historically you know the the
the priest was he's he's the mysteries he's he's
the church he's the sacraments um and the deacon
at some level becomes sort of this interface
between the mysteries and the people you know
and so the early church you know as you know
he the deacon would take communion to those who
were sick, those in prison, those who couldn't
come to the church. So he was that middle ground.
And so his job is always the service of the people
in any way. As far as I'm concerned, I mean,
I'm definitely, I attend St. Paul's and I've
been there since its inception. But certainly
this, and I've been an archdeacon for six years
or something, six or seven. But this new minute,
I've always sort of served the whole diocese.
And I go to lots of different churches and put
lots of miles on my car because I'm kind of running
around a little bit. But it's truly a great blessing.
Would it make your service easier if you had
a helicopter perhaps? I've said that to a few
churches. I'll go there and it's like a two and
a half hour drive. And then they'll say, you
know, can you come back every month? And I'm
like, you know, get me a helicopter and I'll
come back. No problem. But so there's a lot of
running around. But thank God there's such a
nice spirit. You know, there isn't my church,
your church, my youth, your youth, my meeting,
your meeting. The kids are running around between
meetings. There's a meeting every night at some
church. And some churches are like, why even
start a meeting? There's a meeting down the street
here and there's a meeting down the street here.
Why do we need our own meeting? And they encourage
their youth, go to that meeting, go to that meeting,
go to this meeting. So there's a beautiful...
uh canonia there right spirit of cooperation
yeah and no one's out you know grabbing all the
people and doing all sheep stealing or anything
yeah exactly right and and no one thinks of it
that way and there's lots of meetings you know
that are just for youth right whoever whoever
comes comes you know so um so that's nice so
i've been doing you know i do a lot of that type
of stuff i think And definitely this new ministry
is, you know, a lot. It's, you know, getting
something up and running just takes a lot of
time. And, you know, organizing and, you know,
I send 50 texts a day, you know, just trying
to keep up on different things and everything
is, you know, just takes time. Of course. And,
you know, it's not just starting a new service,
but a service that... where there are a lot of
opinions about which direction to take and you
know you have to think and consider all these
opinions and all these ways of doing this and
you know it puts a lot of responsibility on you
right so um do you have anything that's coming
down the pipe anything in the plans that you're
able to speak about oh like a new uh ministry
um Gee, I'm sort of drawing a blank right now
on all the different things we're doing. I'm
excited about sort of the Coptic club and discipleship
and, you know, being there for these kids, you
know, for the big things. Obviously, it doesn't
replace the confession father in any way, but
there's all these little things, you know, like,
you know, I want to talk to this girl and how
do I deal with the situation? And so it'd be
nice that if the community can give back to itself,
you know, we have so many people have graduated
from these colleges and so many people want to
give back. And I think giving them an outlet,
an ability to give back, you know, I mean, so
many adults, you know, 40s come up to me and
they're like, hey, anytime you need me. just
let me know how i can help you know so many people
say that right and then you see all that untapped
potential of all these people right and they're
they're successful spiritual great people they
aren't on the speaker you know circuit running
around giving talks but they're great great mentor
people and then you have you know the priest
buried you know underwater and unable to breathe
and you're like okay you know there's a disconnect
here right and so we've kind of gotten this mindset
of like well only the priest can serve you know
and and that's a bonus job and i'm not gonna
you know well there's a person who wants to you
know become an atheist you know you want to go
talk to him and you're like no no no abuna will
do that right it's like well you know not everybody
should talk to that person but there are some
people who can yeah um and relate their experience
and and handle it and listen you know why do
you become and then you find figure out it's
nothing with atheism it's about a problem i have
with this girl right or that or my parents or
and then that's why you want to become an atheist
right and so we're thinking atheism you know
we're scared of the word and all of a sudden
it's just well you know here's what your dad's
really trying to say right and he loves you very
much you know and oh okay i'm not an atheist
anymore you know so sometimes crises can be averted
just by having somebody there who can listen
absolutely 100 and with the with the priest like
you say being buried and then you have all this
untapped potential It takes a special person
to kind of be in the right place at the right
time to say, you know what, I can help you organize.
I can point you in the right direction. I have,
I know, I know where there is a need and you're
connecting, you know, the people with the time
to the people who have the need. And that's very
important. There's definitely something that,
you know, I have a long way to go in terms of
being organized and recognizing this and just.
you know not like taking things on my own shoulder
recognizing you know the the gifts that god is
giving to people to go and serve and minister
and and and be a light to the world discipleship
parenting and campus ministry and and i think
the last thing that we we the big one that i'm
eager to start um is really dealing with the
problem of pornography um it's just rampant and
um and figuring out a way to create something
that people won't be ashamed to come to, you
know, that maybe maintains your privacy in some
way, but something that pairs you with a mentor
or somebody who's another ish bean, maybe, you
know, someone who's responsible, someone you
can go to when you're tempted. And so I think
we really need to address this, this issue. not
just because, you know, lust and lust is bad.
It's because it's destroying marriages, right?
And destroying relationships and actually creating
a backlog because, you know, there are guys who
don't want to get married, you know, because
I have porn, you know, and whatever, right? So
it's creating all kinds of, you know, these issues.
And so that's the next thing that, you know,
God willing, we're... we're vetting, we're going
through, we're thinking about the best way to
do it. There's lots of churches, you know, Winnipeg
and DC has done some great stuff. Other churches
have done great stuff. There's lots of programs
out there. I think it's just a matter of time
to kind of go through and sort of institutionalize
something for our diocese. Again, be a resource,
right? You know, every priest hears it, every
confession. So if he can point and say, hey,
there's a program out there that might help you,
you know, and then offload it off his, you know,
I mean. Really, our job is to make Abuna's life
easier, honestly. If we can offload things, something
he trusts, something that's run by the diocese,
and say, hey, there's a program here by the diocese.
Check this out. See what you think. It's one
less headache for him. That's a big thing we
also want to work on. And with that, I want to
thank you very much for your time and your wisdom.
And I'm going to be continuing to look at your
ministry with great interest. This is a lot of
amazing stuff. So if there's one thing you want
to end with as a kind of message of hope when
it comes to church and culture, what would you
say? I think the message is sort of the... The
thing that we have on all of our merch, which
is see Christ, know Christ, be Christ, which
is actually the theme of the retreat that we're
going to attend you and I soon. But, you know,
I think we just have to go back to the basics.
And I think we keep our eye on him. And he will,
you know, he guides. And so seeking him and then
knowing him and then being him. I think if that's
our focus, then. all these things get solved
naturally and without too much problems. God
willing. Beautiful words to end on. Thank you
so much, Archie. Thank you so much. And I hope
you come visit back. Thank you very much. I'll
come in the summer. Yeah, I'd recommend waiting
until the summer. Thank you so much. Thank you,
Abhi. I hope you enjoyed listening to this episode.
For questions, comments, feedback, or if you'd
like to make a suggestion on a topic for a future
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God bless you and have a great day.