WEBVTT 00:00:00.699 --> 00:00:03.740 Hello everyone, this is Father Paul, and I hope 00:00:03.740 --> 00:00:05.780 you're having a good day. You're listening to 00:00:05.780 --> 00:00:10.640 Cops in Conversation. To obtain a mindset, to 00:00:10.640 --> 00:00:13.179 enter into a mystery, is so much different than 00:00:13.179 --> 00:00:15.439 to say, well, where does it say what repentance 00:00:15.439 --> 00:00:18.039 looks like? You know, apparently it looks like 00:00:18.039 --> 00:00:21.239 crossing the Red Sea, but you could never use 00:00:21.239 --> 00:00:24.460 that as just a here's the fact kind of argument, 00:00:24.539 --> 00:00:26.379 right? You'd have to have all of this context 00:00:26.379 --> 00:00:29.910 go, wow, that's the image. And that's where I 00:00:29.910 --> 00:00:32.829 think reading the Church Fathers becomes an exercise 00:00:32.829 --> 00:00:37.090 in changing who you are rather than learning 00:00:37.090 --> 00:00:39.490 a few facts. And when people come to that, I 00:00:39.490 --> 00:00:41.170 think people have their own motivation to be 00:00:41.170 --> 00:00:42.770 like, yeah, this stuff is real. I want to keep 00:00:42.770 --> 00:00:44.929 with it. And I think that's the beauty of doing 00:00:44.929 --> 00:00:48.810 it. Absolutely. And speaking of lenses, I mean, 00:00:48.829 --> 00:00:53.350 it's very rare today that we see people take 00:00:53.350 --> 00:00:56.649 a step back and think about the lens through 00:00:56.649 --> 00:01:01.299 which we... observe the world interact with the 00:01:01.299 --> 00:01:05.219 world and that happens sometimes too when we 00:01:05.219 --> 00:01:07.819 read the fathers that yes we use the same lens 00:01:07.819 --> 00:01:12.159 that we're largely unaware of let's say you know 00:01:12.159 --> 00:01:15.540 we've been formed by this consumerist lens so 00:01:15.540 --> 00:01:20.989 we approach the fathers as you know modern consumers 00:01:20.989 --> 00:01:26.230 and we're you know looking for a specific opinion 00:01:26.230 --> 00:01:28.090 something that supports what we're trying to 00:01:28.090 --> 00:01:31.989 say the way we live our lives rather than looking 00:01:31.989 --> 00:01:35.390 to the fathers and reading with the fathers and 00:01:35.390 --> 00:01:39.090 seeing what the fathers are are saying and experiencing 00:01:39.090 --> 00:01:42.709 and inviting us to experience right we're just 00:01:42.709 --> 00:01:47.430 looking to the fathers to kind of support what 00:01:47.430 --> 00:01:50.540 we've already decided that we're gonna do or 00:01:50.540 --> 00:01:54.099 how we're gonna live whereas being patient readers 00:01:54.099 --> 00:01:57.620 allows us to just take a breath take a moment 00:01:57.620 --> 00:02:01.060 and examine like how is it that i'm living my 00:02:01.060 --> 00:02:04.260 life today how is it that they lived their lives 00:02:04.260 --> 00:02:08.039 and do we have any common grounds are there any 00:02:08.039 --> 00:02:11.340 issues that they're trying to warn me about and 00:02:11.340 --> 00:02:17.430 are there any um kind of challenges that they've 00:02:17.430 --> 00:02:19.889 already addressed that I'm experiencing today 00:02:19.889 --> 00:02:26.330 and how is their experience helpful in helping 00:02:26.330 --> 00:02:29.229 me navigate these challenges that I'm facing 00:02:29.229 --> 00:02:33.969 today. For me today, I look at all the things 00:02:33.969 --> 00:02:36.050 that are available to me and I say, you know 00:02:36.050 --> 00:02:40.569 what, why not? If I have access to all of these 00:02:40.569 --> 00:02:43.229 wonderful things, why not just... partake of 00:02:43.229 --> 00:02:46.469 all the good stuff and just consume as much as 00:02:46.469 --> 00:02:48.930 possible and i can consume information i can 00:02:48.930 --> 00:02:51.590 consume products i can consume things and then 00:02:51.590 --> 00:02:54.650 when i with the same mindset turn to the fathers 00:02:54.650 --> 00:02:57.030 and say you know what i'm just i have access 00:02:57.030 --> 00:03:02.090 to all of this uh stuff and i'm just gonna consume 00:03:02.090 --> 00:03:06.020 as much of it as i can and just by consuming 00:03:06.020 --> 00:03:10.080 it this is somehow going to change my life this 00:03:10.080 --> 00:03:12.860 is somehow going to alter my the way i experience 00:03:12.860 --> 00:03:17.460 church and my attendance in church where as i 00:03:17.460 --> 00:03:19.400 see in the fathers they're trying to warn me 00:03:19.400 --> 00:03:22.560 i guess as i say like don't turn this into kind 00:03:22.560 --> 00:03:26.159 of this whole thing about who you are and affirming 00:03:26.159 --> 00:03:27.800 who you are and where you're coming from this 00:03:27.800 --> 00:03:30.699 is something else this is something that's transformative 00:03:31.280 --> 00:03:33.939 you come to christ he's going to transform you 00:03:33.939 --> 00:03:37.539 into what you were created to be you're going 00:03:37.539 --> 00:03:41.300 to become a person by coming to christ not you 00:03:41.300 --> 00:03:43.319 are coming to christ for him to pat you on the 00:03:43.319 --> 00:03:46.159 shoulder on the back and say good job you know 00:03:46.159 --> 00:03:49.479 uh you're doing great you're perfect you don't 00:03:49.479 --> 00:03:53.039 need to change even like you know this kind of 00:03:53.039 --> 00:03:57.379 self -affirming uh approach but with the fathers 00:03:57.379 --> 00:03:59.180 it's different like with the fathers they they 00:03:59.180 --> 00:04:03.960 challenge things they they really not just challenge 00:04:03.960 --> 00:04:08.460 quote -unquote facts but they challenge um visions 00:04:08.460 --> 00:04:11.000 and view of things and how we view things and 00:04:11.000 --> 00:04:13.319 how we approach things and this is what's very 00:04:13.319 --> 00:04:16.420 rare today because it's very dangerous for someone 00:04:17.240 --> 00:04:20.240 uh to really present an honest opinion online 00:04:20.240 --> 00:04:23.740 it's almost like they only present what's safe 00:04:23.740 --> 00:04:26.480 and what's agreed upon why you know the online 00:04:26.480 --> 00:04:31.360 mob and to be real to be uh honest is something 00:04:31.360 --> 00:04:33.600 that's very rare otherwise they lose you know 00:04:33.600 --> 00:04:35.819 followers they lose influence they lose you know 00:04:35.819 --> 00:04:38.379 or they get canceled or they get canceled but 00:04:38.379 --> 00:04:41.199 with the fathers i'm like They have their eye 00:04:41.199 --> 00:04:43.879 on the prize. The prize is Christ and nothing 00:04:43.879 --> 00:04:46.339 else to them matters. So they're giving us this 00:04:46.339 --> 00:04:50.319 truthful vision of life, how it is, how it ought 00:04:50.319 --> 00:04:54.980 to be, how we as Christians walking in their 00:04:54.980 --> 00:04:57.480 footsteps, in their tradition, along with them, 00:04:57.560 --> 00:05:00.720 ought to see Christ, ought to see our lives in 00:05:00.720 --> 00:05:04.279 this world, our time in this world. So you've 00:05:04.279 --> 00:05:06.060 really said something that I want to piggyback 00:05:06.060 --> 00:05:10.120 off of. Anybody who knows me know I have a few 00:05:10.120 --> 00:05:12.139 recycled things I like to say and that's it because 00:05:12.139 --> 00:05:16.519 I find them so interesting. But there's this 00:05:16.519 --> 00:05:18.519 sense, there's something I talk about with people 00:05:18.519 --> 00:05:21.019 that I think could best be called iconic vision 00:05:21.019 --> 00:05:26.540 or viewing things as icons in a sense. What we 00:05:26.540 --> 00:05:29.399 have... is we think we look at the world objectively 00:05:29.399 --> 00:05:32.319 because it is what it is. And that's a concept 00:05:32.319 --> 00:05:34.540 that's given to us by materialist, rationalist 00:05:34.540 --> 00:05:36.699 thought, right? The world is what you can measure 00:05:36.699 --> 00:05:38.800 and break it down to its various million, billion 00:05:38.800 --> 00:05:41.160 pieces. And what the Church Fathers do that's 00:05:41.160 --> 00:05:44.100 so interesting is to go, look, what you're viewing 00:05:44.100 --> 00:05:46.439 the world through is actually the impassioned 00:05:46.439 --> 00:05:49.220 thoughts that you have, pathos being those sinful 00:05:49.220 --> 00:05:52.259 thoughts that come to us from outside, if you 00:05:52.259 --> 00:05:56.360 will. your world is shaped by something that 00:05:56.360 --> 00:05:58.120 you don't even know you're wearing, right? You 00:05:58.120 --> 00:06:00.439 don't even know you have those glasses on. And 00:06:00.439 --> 00:06:02.180 so when I want to make this example for people, 00:06:02.259 --> 00:06:04.579 I'll say like, look, the beauty of being Orthodox 00:06:04.579 --> 00:06:08.699 is you have no farther to look than icons. I 00:06:08.699 --> 00:06:10.959 cite the example of the fact that most of the 00:06:10.959 --> 00:06:14.839 earliest depictions, as Sotak knows, of the crucifixion 00:06:14.839 --> 00:06:18.199 have the Lord completely alive. So particularly 00:06:18.199 --> 00:06:20.199 we still have some great depictions in Ravenna 00:06:20.199 --> 00:06:22.980 where you have the Lord Jesus Christ on the cross. 00:06:23.160 --> 00:06:25.759 He's not slouched. He's not bloodied. His eyes 00:06:25.759 --> 00:06:28.379 are wide open. You know, there's still actually 00:06:28.379 --> 00:06:31.519 like real color to his flesh. He's not paled 00:06:31.519 --> 00:06:35.040 or anything. And he's looking out at the individual 00:06:35.040 --> 00:06:37.139 viewing the icon or sometimes at those at the 00:06:37.139 --> 00:06:40.019 foot of the cross. And it's so funny because 00:06:40.019 --> 00:06:43.019 art historians and other scholars have taken 00:06:43.019 --> 00:06:45.220 that as a sign that Christians were, quote unquote, 00:06:45.439 --> 00:06:48.100 offended by the cross. And so they didn't want 00:06:48.100 --> 00:06:50.259 to depict Jesus being bloodied. I think that's 00:06:50.259 --> 00:06:52.519 so funny because St. Paul already from the very 00:06:52.519 --> 00:06:55.180 beginning has talked about the fact that he's 00:06:55.180 --> 00:06:57.620 not offended whatsoever, but he glories in the 00:06:57.620 --> 00:07:00.660 cross of Christ. And so it would be a real step 00:07:00.660 --> 00:07:02.959 back if only, you know, 50 years later, people 00:07:02.959 --> 00:07:04.819 are going, oh, let's not depict him, you know, 00:07:04.819 --> 00:07:09.079 crucified. But what you actually have, is a vision 00:07:09.079 --> 00:07:13.199 of reality that we can't see physically. And 00:07:13.199 --> 00:07:15.079 I think that's something that people really struggle 00:07:15.079 --> 00:07:17.899 with. The icons, and the Church Fathers teach 00:07:17.899 --> 00:07:19.800 us to do the same, but the icons, to go with 00:07:19.800 --> 00:07:23.220 this example, show us reality as it is, not as 00:07:23.220 --> 00:07:27.259 we see it. And as we see it, reality is not always 00:07:27.259 --> 00:07:29.399 as it seems. And we know this from our experience. 00:07:30.839 --> 00:07:33.199 We know that people can look on the exact same 00:07:33.199 --> 00:07:35.120 thing and interpret it in two completely different 00:07:35.120 --> 00:07:38.069 ways. If you're a devout, christian you look 00:07:38.069 --> 00:07:41.810 at the poor man as christ if you're a billionaire 00:07:41.810 --> 00:07:44.970 techie you may you may look at him as somebody 00:07:44.970 --> 00:07:46.569 who needs help but you may also just look at 00:07:46.569 --> 00:07:48.290 him as a guy who couldn't make in the world he 00:07:48.290 --> 00:07:50.350 wasn't cut out for it and that's what the greco 00:07:50.350 --> 00:07:53.430 -roman pagans did right they they thought that 00:07:53.430 --> 00:07:55.329 that was just the work of fate and the poor guy 00:07:55.329 --> 00:07:57.930 sucks to suck and you know he's poor that's why 00:07:57.930 --> 00:08:00.310 there was no point really for the hospital for 00:08:00.310 --> 00:08:03.529 exactly until the fourth century so but what 00:08:03.529 --> 00:08:06.110 the icons do is is i and i tell people this i'm 00:08:06.110 --> 00:08:08.379 like look If you were at the foot of the cross 00:08:08.379 --> 00:08:11.779 and you're looking at Jesus, you're looking at 00:08:11.779 --> 00:08:14.060 a dead guy, you know, for all intents and purposes. 00:08:14.220 --> 00:08:16.139 May God forgive me for speaking like this. But 00:08:16.139 --> 00:08:19.279 if you're really physically there, you know, 00:08:19.300 --> 00:08:21.060 if you're going to take a snapshot, it's a dead 00:08:21.060 --> 00:08:24.670 guy. if you can see with the eyes of faith, if 00:08:24.670 --> 00:08:27.670 you can see reality as it actually is, you actually 00:08:27.670 --> 00:08:29.790 have the icon, which is the Lord of glory who 00:08:29.790 --> 00:08:32.129 is fully alive, enters into death, that he might 00:08:32.129 --> 00:08:34.029 destroy death by death, as we've been singing 00:08:34.029 --> 00:08:38.169 these 50 days and will continue to. And so the 00:08:38.169 --> 00:08:41.950 icon of Christ crucified fully alive is actually 00:08:41.950 --> 00:08:45.820 showing you reality. The snapshot... If you took 00:08:45.820 --> 00:08:50.899 a Polaroid in the year 33 AD, whatever date it's 00:08:50.899 --> 00:08:53.259 debated to be, if you took a snapshot of Jesus 00:08:53.259 --> 00:08:55.440 crucified, you're not seeing that. You're just 00:08:55.440 --> 00:08:59.720 seeing a quote -unquote dead guy. Where the eyes 00:08:59.720 --> 00:09:03.299 of faith, the eyes of virtue, allow us to see 00:09:03.299 --> 00:09:05.740 reality as it actually is, not just as it appears 00:09:05.740 --> 00:09:09.299 physically. And so there's this distinction that... 00:09:09.940 --> 00:09:12.000 St. Gregory of Nyssa makes in the life of Moses 00:09:12.000 --> 00:09:14.179 where he goes why does Moses come and meet God 00:09:14.179 --> 00:09:17.220 at the top of the mountain and he goes you know 00:09:17.220 --> 00:09:19.120 what do I tell them you are who do I tell them 00:09:19.120 --> 00:09:21.340 what's your name and what not and the Lord says 00:09:21.340 --> 00:09:23.559 to him God says to him out of the burning bush 00:09:23.559 --> 00:09:26.440 literally well I am that I am is most of our 00:09:26.440 --> 00:09:28.679 translations but if you will he literally tells 00:09:28.679 --> 00:09:32.120 him I is right in the present tense existing 00:09:32.120 --> 00:09:37.570 is what I am and it's like You know, it's like, 00:09:37.610 --> 00:09:40.509 well, that's the most disappointing answer. What 00:09:40.509 --> 00:09:42.490 do you mean? This guy just found a burning bush 00:09:42.490 --> 00:09:45.210 and now it's just Ayes? But in reality, Gregor 00:09:45.210 --> 00:09:47.929 of Nyssa goes, look, true reality is things that 00:09:47.929 --> 00:09:51.929 exist as they are, not... as they appear by deception. 00:09:52.250 --> 00:09:54.669 And God, therefore, is the only thing that truly 00:09:54.669 --> 00:09:57.190 exists and gives life to all things that are. 00:09:57.350 --> 00:09:58.889 And then he takes that to the spiritual life 00:09:58.889 --> 00:10:00.970 and he goes, the problem in the spiritual life, 00:10:01.129 --> 00:10:03.289 and he says this in his homilies on the Beatitudes, 00:10:03.429 --> 00:10:05.789 he goes, is not that we need to be convinced 00:10:05.789 --> 00:10:08.409 to pursue good. The problem in the spiritual 00:10:08.409 --> 00:10:11.570 life is that we need to stop being deceived as 00:10:11.570 --> 00:10:14.450 to that which is really good by nature. And so 00:10:14.450 --> 00:10:17.649 that's iconic vision, where you're like, this 00:10:17.649 --> 00:10:20.269 looks like it's going to satisfy me. It's not, 00:10:20.309 --> 00:10:22.909 though, because I can now see with the eyes of 00:10:22.909 --> 00:10:26.409 virtue. I can take off the passionate lens that 00:10:26.409 --> 00:10:29.750 I have. You were talking about consumerism, and 00:10:29.750 --> 00:10:34.529 there's the writings of a lesser -known desert 00:10:34.529 --> 00:10:36.350 ascetic, but who becomes the source of the whole 00:10:36.350 --> 00:10:39.850 desert tradition, is Evagris of Pontus. And he 00:10:39.850 --> 00:10:43.350 dies in 399. He's responsible for a list of eight 00:10:43.350 --> 00:10:46.009 generic or passionate thoughts that are the basis 00:10:46.009 --> 00:10:48.620 or the root. of all of the other thoughts that 00:10:48.620 --> 00:10:51.460 we struggle with. It is the basis for where the 00:10:51.460 --> 00:10:53.820 Catholic Church gets the seven deadly sins, but 00:10:53.820 --> 00:10:55.980 he didn't mean it that way in any way, and that 00:10:55.980 --> 00:10:58.059 comes through. And the list is slightly different 00:10:58.059 --> 00:11:00.139 in the West. It is, exactly, right? Because the 00:11:00.139 --> 00:11:04.600 seven, he has eight. They combine two, and then 00:11:04.600 --> 00:11:07.720 they add one. So they combine sadness and acedia, 00:11:07.860 --> 00:11:11.500 and they also combine, rather, pride and vainglory. 00:11:11.860 --> 00:11:14.899 Sadness and acedia just becomes sloth, what the 00:11:14.899 --> 00:11:17.960 West calls sloth. Pride and vainglory just becomes 00:11:17.960 --> 00:11:22.139 pride, and then they add envy. And so minus two, 00:11:22.179 --> 00:11:25.629 add one, you get seven. But in any case, in his 00:11:25.629 --> 00:11:27.690 system, he starts with gluttony. He goes, look, 00:11:27.789 --> 00:11:30.129 the very first of the passion thoughts is gluttony. 00:11:30.190 --> 00:11:32.129 And we think we know what gluttony is today, 00:11:32.269 --> 00:11:34.509 right? We think, okay, cool, that's Mandarin 00:11:34.509 --> 00:11:38.129 before Lent. You know, that's gluttony. And what 00:11:38.129 --> 00:11:40.289 I find fascinating about Evagrius is he's like, 00:11:40.450 --> 00:11:43.750 no, no, no, no. Gluttony is an attitude towards 00:11:43.750 --> 00:11:46.450 all of reality. It's not just what you put in 00:11:46.450 --> 00:11:48.870 your mouth, although that's the basic root. Because 00:11:48.870 --> 00:11:51.289 gluttony is an attitude of saying, I need to 00:11:51.289 --> 00:11:53.090 consume what's in front of me. In fact, the whole 00:11:53.090 --> 00:11:56.490 world is made for me to consume. It's made for 00:11:56.490 --> 00:11:59.789 my entertainment. The world is a plaything that 00:11:59.789 --> 00:12:02.409 should be subject to my every whim. And then 00:12:02.409 --> 00:12:04.309 he says that leads to lust, because naturally 00:12:04.309 --> 00:12:07.870 lust is the belief then that the human being 00:12:07.870 --> 00:12:09.830 made in the image and likeness of God is also 00:12:09.830 --> 00:12:12.950 made for my consumption. And so what he says 00:12:12.950 --> 00:12:17.049 is when we... tear away these veils as the veil 00:12:17.049 --> 00:12:20.269 from Moses' face was taken away in Christ, if 00:12:20.269 --> 00:12:24.070 you will, as St. Paul says. If you tear away 00:12:24.070 --> 00:12:25.769 all these veils, all these different lenses, 00:12:25.929 --> 00:12:29.129 all these different colorings or whatever we 00:12:29.129 --> 00:12:31.409 have to our vision, you can start to see reality 00:12:31.409 --> 00:12:34.509 as it is and not as the things that we've become 00:12:34.509 --> 00:12:36.789 subject to through our own slavery, our own wishes. 00:12:37.389 --> 00:12:39.429 And I think that's something where reading the 00:12:39.429 --> 00:12:41.309 Church Fathers allows you to go, I didn't even 00:12:41.309 --> 00:12:44.710 realize I was struggling with this sin. And that's 00:12:44.710 --> 00:12:47.070 why I was so enslaved to this or to that bad 00:12:47.070 --> 00:12:50.750 relationship or to that desire for a car of a 00:12:50.750 --> 00:12:54.809 particular make or whatever. You know, it's not 00:12:54.809 --> 00:12:57.409 that other people are bad. It's not that cars 00:12:57.409 --> 00:12:59.330 are bad. It's not that music is bad. It's not 00:12:59.330 --> 00:13:00.909 that any of these things in and of themselves 00:13:00.909 --> 00:13:03.309 is bad. It's just that I've become enslaved to 00:13:03.309 --> 00:13:05.549 them and put them above Christ. And now I've 00:13:05.549 --> 00:13:09.450 let them become an idol in my life. And so reading 00:13:09.450 --> 00:13:12.110 with the church fathers, I think allows us to 00:13:12.110 --> 00:13:14.879 go. I didn't even know that I was looking at 00:13:14.879 --> 00:13:17.340 the world this way. And that's why I think, and 00:13:17.340 --> 00:13:19.360 I keep citing the life of Moses, but it's just 00:13:19.360 --> 00:13:24.019 because it's on your desk here. But I think reading 00:13:24.019 --> 00:13:25.379 with the church fathers, and there are a number 00:13:25.379 --> 00:13:26.940 of works that do this, allow you to go, wow. 00:13:27.580 --> 00:13:31.059 I didn't even pay attention to that in my life. 00:13:31.519 --> 00:13:35.399 There's another book. It's titled today by Popular 00:13:35.399 --> 00:13:38.990 Patristic Series. It's on social justice. It's 00:13:38.990 --> 00:13:40.809 a series of homilies by St. Basil the Great. 00:13:40.970 --> 00:13:43.149 He never gave a homily called On Social Justice, 00:13:43.370 --> 00:13:46.190 but that's what the compiler and translator called 00:13:46.190 --> 00:13:51.169 it. And he says something, again, very stark. 00:13:51.389 --> 00:13:54.789 He goes, look, if you look in your closet and 00:13:54.789 --> 00:13:56.889 you see that you have two coats, just understand 00:13:56.889 --> 00:13:59.570 that you stole one of them from the poor. And 00:13:59.570 --> 00:14:02.009 none of us would naturally look at our closets 00:14:02.009 --> 00:14:03.470 and think that. We'd think, why do I only have 00:14:03.470 --> 00:14:05.909 two coats? But it's when you read something like 00:14:05.909 --> 00:14:07.070 that that you have to step back and be like, 00:14:07.110 --> 00:14:09.669 okay, whoa, whoa, whoa. What what's so different 00:14:09.669 --> 00:14:12.710 about me and the way I live that I'm suddenly, 00:14:12.789 --> 00:14:15.330 you know, I'm in such a different worldview I'm 00:14:15.330 --> 00:14:17.590 in such a different place than them that I view 00:14:17.590 --> 00:14:19.870 the poor or my own possessions or whatever So 00:14:19.870 --> 00:14:22.250 differently and then later in the same collection 00:14:22.250 --> 00:14:24.909 will be like if you take the rich man The real 00:14:24.909 --> 00:14:26.970 trouble with him isn't that he's rich. It's that 00:14:26.970 --> 00:14:29.529 if you take away his riches, it would be better 00:14:29.929 --> 00:14:31.950 if you've taken away his arm for him, because 00:14:31.950 --> 00:14:34.309 the agony he suffers at the removal of his wealth 00:14:34.309 --> 00:14:37.070 is unbearable to him. He goes, that's an indication 00:14:37.070 --> 00:14:39.669 to you of what your problem is. And that's something 00:14:39.669 --> 00:14:42.789 we could all read and go, okay, my relationship 00:14:42.789 --> 00:14:45.309 with these things is the issue, my attachment, 00:14:45.409 --> 00:14:48.389 my slavery, my willingness to let them control 00:14:48.389 --> 00:14:51.090 me. That's really where the problem is. And that, 00:14:51.129 --> 00:14:52.590 again, is something that you get from reading 00:14:52.590 --> 00:14:54.730 somebody who writes in a completely different 00:14:54.730 --> 00:14:57.250 time, thinks in a completely different way than 00:14:57.250 --> 00:14:59.960 us. But also it was clearly a man dedicated to 00:14:59.960 --> 00:15:01.860 social causes. Like he opened the world's first 00:15:01.860 --> 00:15:04.799 hospital, you know? Right, right. And someone 00:15:04.799 --> 00:15:09.980 like that in his position and with access to 00:15:09.980 --> 00:15:13.480 all of these resources and then telling us moderns 00:15:13.480 --> 00:15:16.639 today that, you know, it's better if you take 00:15:16.639 --> 00:15:18.779 someone's arm than if you take, you know, the 00:15:18.779 --> 00:15:21.799 content of his bank account. You know, he's not 00:15:21.799 --> 00:15:25.399 wrong. Like a lot of people would rather... And 00:15:25.399 --> 00:15:29.080 in fact, it does happen more often than not. 00:15:29.159 --> 00:15:31.539 Unfortunately, people take their lives when they 00:15:31.539 --> 00:15:35.039 lose large sums of money because they say life 00:15:35.039 --> 00:15:37.779 is unbearable. If I do not have these resources, 00:15:38.000 --> 00:15:42.639 I cannot live. If I don't have this standard 00:15:42.639 --> 00:15:45.379 of living, life is not worth living. What's the 00:15:45.379 --> 00:15:48.259 point? What's the point? And he's speaking to 00:15:48.259 --> 00:15:50.220 that. They're all speaking to that. They're saying 00:15:50.220 --> 00:15:53.940 that this is a problem with the way we view life. 00:15:54.080 --> 00:15:55.720 This is a problem with the way we approach life. 00:15:56.620 --> 00:16:02.440 And the problem is also, I think, if we read 00:16:02.440 --> 00:16:06.860 from within our own culture, whatever it is we're 00:16:06.860 --> 00:16:10.240 reading is tainted by the same lens that's blinding 00:16:10.240 --> 00:16:15.039 us. And it's only from reading from outside of... 00:16:15.720 --> 00:16:21.559 our culture our time bubble then we begin to 00:16:21.559 --> 00:16:26.100 see like here's someone looking at our life today 00:16:26.100 --> 00:16:30.700 from the outside and he's helping us see how 00:16:30.700 --> 00:16:36.210 ridiculous it all is St. John Chrysostom Again, 00:16:37.029 --> 00:16:40.529 it's a bunch of homilies that they call on marriage 00:16:40.529 --> 00:16:43.009 and family life. I love that book. So one of 00:16:43.009 --> 00:16:45.730 the sermons is on marriage, and he writes about 00:16:45.730 --> 00:16:50.769 the wedding reception. Yes, that's the best. 00:16:50.929 --> 00:16:52.370 Whenever I want to show people, I'll be like, 00:16:52.429 --> 00:16:53.929 you know the church fathers knew what we would 00:16:53.929 --> 00:16:55.350 be like? And they'll be like, what do you mean? 00:16:55.470 --> 00:16:57.309 He knew that there would be an open bar. He knew 00:16:57.309 --> 00:16:59.909 all the dancing and the music and the songs. 00:17:00.009 --> 00:17:04.400 He knew. And then he writes it in such vivid 00:17:04.400 --> 00:17:08.220 language, like you're basically inviting the 00:17:08.220 --> 00:17:10.339 devil. You invite Christ to the altar and say 00:17:10.339 --> 00:17:14.500 like, you know, I want to start my marriage at 00:17:14.500 --> 00:17:19.220 the altar, sacramentally. And then a day later 00:17:19.220 --> 00:17:23.359 at the reception, I invite the devil and his 00:17:23.359 --> 00:17:26.819 pomp and his music and all this stuff. And then 00:17:26.819 --> 00:17:29.750 I begin to wonder. you know why are things going 00:17:29.750 --> 00:17:31.549 wrong in my marriage well you know if i started 00:17:31.549 --> 00:17:35.650 off on the wrong foot and and he tells us like 00:17:35.650 --> 00:17:39.109 you know you can say to me that it's tradition 00:17:39.109 --> 00:17:41.509 just this is how people are doing things everybody 00:17:41.509 --> 00:17:43.990 does it he says the exact same thing we say to 00:17:43.990 --> 00:17:46.210 each other today exactly he's saying it and he's 00:17:46.210 --> 00:17:48.109 saying do you know how ridiculous you sound like 00:17:48.109 --> 00:17:50.349 if there's good tradition keep it but if there's 00:17:50.349 --> 00:17:53.789 bad tradition break it and by all means if there's 00:17:53.789 --> 00:17:55.490 something that's good that's not traditional 00:17:55.490 --> 00:17:59.559 start it like how ridiculous how crazy would 00:17:59.559 --> 00:18:02.660 it be if you have a reception and invite poor 00:18:02.660 --> 00:18:06.559 people yeah how how insane would that be you 00:18:06.559 --> 00:18:09.279 know this is not traditional but hey you know 00:18:09.279 --> 00:18:11.859 it will be attributed to you as you are the person 00:18:11.859 --> 00:18:15.220 who started that tradition and it takes someone 00:18:15.220 --> 00:18:18.519 like that with such you know a crisp presentation 00:18:18.519 --> 00:18:24.220 of our reality to kind of uh make us take a double 00:18:24.220 --> 00:18:27.019 take almost something like when like why am i 00:18:27.019 --> 00:18:30.460 doing what i'm doing like is it really the right 00:18:30.460 --> 00:18:32.740 approach the right way of doing things the right 00:18:32.740 --> 00:18:35.200 thing to do here am i just doing it just because 00:18:35.200 --> 00:18:37.180 everybody else is doing it yeah i never thought 00:18:37.180 --> 00:18:38.799 of it this way and it takes someone like that 00:18:38.799 --> 00:18:41.359 who was able to phrase it like that for me to 00:18:41.359 --> 00:18:44.299 start thinking that way and that's really the 00:18:44.299 --> 00:18:47.319 the you know i'm not going to say the but one 00:18:47.319 --> 00:18:51.500 of The most important aspects of reading the 00:18:51.500 --> 00:18:54.119 Fathers, living with the Fathers. To tack on 00:18:54.119 --> 00:18:57.200 to that, you and I know that St. John Chrysostom 00:18:57.200 --> 00:19:00.099 suffered for doing that. I think that's the beautiful 00:19:00.099 --> 00:19:03.960 thing about reading real people. Sometimes our 00:19:03.960 --> 00:19:06.079 idea of the saint, as they said or did things, 00:19:06.220 --> 00:19:08.339 and then it was like... Yeah, then they went 00:19:08.339 --> 00:19:10.059 to heaven and died and whatever and everything 00:19:10.059 --> 00:19:12.799 was good. And instead you have St. John Chrysostom 00:19:12.799 --> 00:19:15.180 who got into arguments with the empress, particularly 00:19:15.180 --> 00:19:18.039 after she put up a statue of herself in front 00:19:18.039 --> 00:19:21.279 of the church, right? And he goes, this is wrong. 00:19:21.460 --> 00:19:22.759 What you're doing is wrong because he wasn't 00:19:22.759 --> 00:19:24.940 ashamed to speak the truth. And he eventually 00:19:24.940 --> 00:19:27.819 gets exiled and he dies in exile, right? And 00:19:27.819 --> 00:19:30.539 you're like... saint john chrysostom bishop of 00:19:30.539 --> 00:19:33.819 constantinople big deal right the the city of 00:19:33.819 --> 00:19:37.799 cities in the ancient world and um and he suffers 00:19:37.799 --> 00:19:40.539 and he's exiled and his life sucks as a result 00:19:40.539 --> 00:19:43.079 of speaking the truth and we have his letters 00:19:43.079 --> 00:19:46.839 to olympia the deaconess um that you can still 00:19:46.839 --> 00:19:48.579 read today from that journey right that's where 00:19:48.579 --> 00:19:50.599 that classic phrase glory to god for all things 00:19:50.599 --> 00:19:54.200 comes from while he's in chains in in exile and 00:19:54.200 --> 00:19:56.740 um And you just have this fact that he's like, 00:19:56.880 --> 00:20:01.579 it doesn't matter. I knew when I said those things 00:20:01.579 --> 00:20:04.339 that were quote -unquote inflammatory that I 00:20:04.339 --> 00:20:06.319 was going to suffer for it. There's a real cost 00:20:06.319 --> 00:20:08.799 to it. This is real preaching, not empty preaching, 00:20:08.940 --> 00:20:11.779 you know, from the safety of, you know, distance. 00:20:11.920 --> 00:20:14.039 And I'm just saying stuff and it's really not 00:20:14.039 --> 00:20:15.480 going to cost me anything. No, this is going 00:20:15.480 --> 00:20:17.500 to cost me everything. And I'm still willing 00:20:17.500 --> 00:20:19.599 to say it. And we may think, well, he's the patriarch 00:20:19.599 --> 00:20:22.339 of Constantinople. Like, I mean, that guy can 00:20:22.339 --> 00:20:24.099 say whatever he wants. It's like, no, even he 00:20:24.099 --> 00:20:26.400 wasn't safe. And he was actually less safe because 00:20:26.400 --> 00:20:28.079 he was a member, an important member of clergy. 00:20:28.700 --> 00:20:31.599 And so the impetus for the rest of us as Christians 00:20:31.599 --> 00:20:34.079 is to be like. Let's speak the truth in love 00:20:34.079 --> 00:20:37.519 and let's speak reality because that's how the 00:20:37.519 --> 00:20:40.359 world will be saved. If you and I are going to 00:20:40.359 --> 00:20:43.500 be like, okay, well, I'm just not the person 00:20:43.500 --> 00:20:46.420 to do it. And it is a God -given vocation. And 00:20:46.420 --> 00:20:48.660 some of us are called to witness in a particular 00:20:48.660 --> 00:20:52.240 way at particular times. But if we all assume 00:20:52.240 --> 00:20:53.980 it's somebody else, it's never going to happen. 00:20:54.200 --> 00:20:57.180 And Chrysostom shows us that even though the 00:20:57.180 --> 00:20:59.119 church remembers him as John of golden mouth, 00:20:59.299 --> 00:21:02.569 which is just what Chrysostom means, He was going 00:21:02.569 --> 00:21:04.829 to suffer for that witness. Even though later 00:21:04.829 --> 00:21:06.569 memory would go, wow, everything came out of 00:21:06.569 --> 00:21:08.130 his mouth is golden. And it's like, yeah, he 00:21:08.130 --> 00:21:10.690 was persecuted for it. At the time, it wasn't 00:21:10.690 --> 00:21:13.369 so golden. Yeah, right. Some people took very 00:21:13.369 --> 00:21:16.250 real offense with it, the empress. There's another 00:21:16.250 --> 00:21:18.869 text from Gregory the Theologian in some of his 00:21:18.869 --> 00:21:22.109 homilies on the love of the poor. And you people 00:21:22.109 --> 00:21:25.170 decorate your houses with stones that preserve 00:21:25.170 --> 00:21:29.390 temperature. Stones that preserve the warmth 00:21:29.390 --> 00:21:33.390 in winter and the cold in summer and comfort. 00:21:33.480 --> 00:21:36.160 comfortable mattresses and and linens from the 00:21:36.160 --> 00:21:37.960 far east where they were getting silk and things 00:21:37.960 --> 00:21:39.920 like that and you read it you're like man yeah 00:21:39.920 --> 00:21:42.579 that's how people build houses today you know 00:21:42.579 --> 00:21:45.759 and and he was like it is what it is truth is 00:21:45.759 --> 00:21:48.609 truth And I think that's something that when 00:21:48.609 --> 00:21:51.509 you read real living people, St. Gregory the 00:21:51.509 --> 00:21:53.190 Theologian is a funny example, too, because he 00:21:53.190 --> 00:21:55.609 didn't want to be a bishop. You remember, right, 00:21:55.690 --> 00:21:57.670 that he ran away when he was ordained a priest. 00:21:57.789 --> 00:21:59.369 And then he had to come back and go, okay, sorry, 00:21:59.470 --> 00:22:03.190 guys, whatever. My bad. I'm here again. And then 00:22:03.190 --> 00:22:05.250 when he's made the bishop of Constantinople, 00:22:05.470 --> 00:22:08.029 he goes to a city that at the time was actually 00:22:08.029 --> 00:22:10.450 full of heresy. He wasn't even allowed to go 00:22:10.450 --> 00:22:13.569 to the patriarchy, if you will. And he had to 00:22:13.569 --> 00:22:15.329 go preach in a tiny little church. And he says, 00:22:15.369 --> 00:22:18.950 this sucks. wanted any of this. And he's so real. 00:22:19.289 --> 00:22:23.930 And that makes his witness to truth all the more 00:22:23.930 --> 00:22:27.789 real. I think for a lot of people, one of the 00:22:27.789 --> 00:22:30.869 favorite weeks for some in our patristics meeting 00:22:30.869 --> 00:22:33.849 is when we do an intro to a church father, some 00:22:33.849 --> 00:22:36.269 of whom we know more facts than others. So sometimes 00:22:36.269 --> 00:22:40.589 we can introduce more detail. But like Gregor 00:22:40.589 --> 00:22:43.069 the Theologian has some autobiographical poetry 00:22:43.069 --> 00:22:45.349 that he's written where he documents the fact 00:22:45.349 --> 00:22:47.450 that he didn't want to believe. He didn't want 00:22:47.450 --> 00:22:50.329 to come to faith. And then he nearly got crashed 00:22:50.329 --> 00:22:53.390 on a boat heading to go to education. Essentially, 00:22:53.410 --> 00:22:55.660 he was going off to uni, if you will. and he 00:22:55.660 --> 00:22:57.359 nearly dies, and he goes, look, if you allow 00:22:57.359 --> 00:22:59.420 me to survive this, my life is yours. I hope 00:22:59.420 --> 00:23:02.339 he survives, and now he's stuck. Now he has to 00:23:02.339 --> 00:23:04.880 keep his word. Right, and then after that, he's 00:23:04.880 --> 00:23:06.539 like, he didn't want the priesthood, and they 00:23:06.539 --> 00:23:08.240 made him a priest, and his father did, actually, 00:23:08.339 --> 00:23:10.519 who was also Gregory, which makes church history 00:23:10.519 --> 00:23:13.240 a lot of fun, because everybody's, Basil has 00:23:13.240 --> 00:23:16.240 a Basil, Gregory has a Gregory, and so on, and 00:23:16.240 --> 00:23:18.740 then he doesn't want to be a bishop, and every 00:23:18.740 --> 00:23:21.720 single time, God's like, look, this is not your 00:23:21.720 --> 00:23:24.039 will, it's mine, and he goes, fine, this sucks, 00:23:24.059 --> 00:23:26.359 and I hate it, it but i'm gonna do it um and 00:23:26.359 --> 00:23:28.819 when when when we do those weeks together where 00:23:28.819 --> 00:23:30.960 we introduce a church father a lot of people 00:23:30.960 --> 00:23:34.019 are like that was really cool i didn't know gregory 00:23:34.019 --> 00:23:36.940 was such a baby about you know being ordained 00:23:36.940 --> 00:23:39.079 a bishop and it's like yeah he hated it he hated 00:23:39.079 --> 00:23:41.980 every minute of it um he even left the council 00:23:41.980 --> 00:23:44.740 of constantinople that happened in 381 because 00:23:44.740 --> 00:23:46.339 he didn't want anything to do with it and so 00:23:46.339 --> 00:23:49.980 on so it's one of those really funny kind of 00:23:49.980 --> 00:23:51.880 situations where you have the opportunity to 00:23:51.880 --> 00:23:54.059 read these real people be actually very real 00:23:54.059 --> 00:23:56.819 and to struggle, but still to pursue the life 00:23:56.819 --> 00:24:01.380 of virtue. We could cite other examples, but 00:24:01.380 --> 00:24:04.880 I don't want to just keep rambling here. That's 00:24:04.880 --> 00:24:10.579 actually very interesting because these are not... 00:24:13.400 --> 00:24:17.400 uh ideal figures that are you know uh perfectly 00:24:17.400 --> 00:24:20.880 packaged story these are real lives people who 00:24:20.880 --> 00:24:23.980 put their lives where their mouth was and they 00:24:23.980 --> 00:24:28.799 and they spoke the truth and it cost them and 00:24:28.799 --> 00:24:31.380 it takes us back to the very disciples themselves 00:24:31.380 --> 00:24:35.619 who you know were preaching the crucified lord 00:24:35.619 --> 00:24:39.079 and the risen lord and uh it wasn't something 00:24:39.079 --> 00:24:43.869 that was you know without cost. It cost them 00:24:43.869 --> 00:24:46.670 their very lives. And this was the witness. This 00:24:46.670 --> 00:24:52.289 is the witness that they left us. And only from 00:24:52.289 --> 00:24:56.369 within can their witness be seen as witness. 00:24:56.950 --> 00:25:00.809 From without, it's weakness. And St. Paul said 00:25:00.809 --> 00:25:04.170 it. To the world, for the Greeks, the cross is 00:25:04.170 --> 00:25:07.170 foolishness. But to us, it's the very power of 00:25:07.170 --> 00:25:10.250 God. And you mentioned a story before. There's 00:25:10.250 --> 00:25:14.309 a similar story. From Father John Bear wrote 00:25:14.309 --> 00:25:17.190 a commentary, sort of commentary on the Gospel 00:25:17.190 --> 00:25:19.089 of John. And in it, he talks about the story 00:25:19.089 --> 00:25:22.490 of Blandina. Yes, I love that story. And that 00:25:22.490 --> 00:25:26.730 story is like it encompasses all of like this 00:25:26.730 --> 00:25:34.049 young slave girl who is being martyred and basically 00:25:34.049 --> 00:25:39.059 is hanging in the middle of the arena. And, you 00:25:39.059 --> 00:25:41.039 know, all the people sitting around like all 00:25:41.039 --> 00:25:42.920 those billionaires and saying, oh, you know, 00:25:42.920 --> 00:25:45.839 poor girl. Or perhaps they're thinking, oh, it's 00:25:45.839 --> 00:25:48.420 her fate. There's nothing really that could be 00:25:48.420 --> 00:25:51.420 done for her. Like it's her fate to be, you know, 00:25:51.440 --> 00:25:55.559 food for the beast, for our entertainment. But 00:25:55.559 --> 00:25:58.920 as St. Irenaeus relates to us, he tells us like. 00:25:59.500 --> 00:26:02.539 The people who were hanging on the floor of the 00:26:02.539 --> 00:26:04.980 arena with her to be martyred, they saw something 00:26:04.980 --> 00:26:07.740 else. Something that no one else saw. They saw 00:26:07.740 --> 00:26:10.660 Christ. Yeah. And I think one of the best parts 00:26:10.660 --> 00:26:13.279 about the letter of Irenaeus about her is he 00:26:13.279 --> 00:26:15.619 also shares that although she's being beaten 00:26:15.619 --> 00:26:19.480 down, you know, by the whatever you call them, 00:26:19.519 --> 00:26:21.559 the guys that are doing the torture before she 00:26:21.559 --> 00:26:25.500 gets eaten. He narrates that they were beaten. 00:26:26.119 --> 00:26:30.119 with sweat and physical exhaustion as they were 00:26:30.119 --> 00:26:33.880 beating her down. And that all those in the arena 00:26:33.880 --> 00:26:36.700 who could were seeing Christ suffering for their 00:26:36.700 --> 00:26:40.339 sake in the person of the weakest of the weak. 00:26:40.640 --> 00:26:42.839 Blandina is a slave girl. Not only is she a woman, 00:26:42.940 --> 00:26:45.579 which of course are not even second -rate citizens 00:26:45.579 --> 00:26:47.599 in the ancient Greco -Roman world. Contrary to 00:26:47.599 --> 00:26:49.500 most people's thought, it's Christianity that 00:26:49.500 --> 00:26:52.930 transforms the position of women. but she's a 00:26:52.930 --> 00:26:55.609 woman and she's a slave girl. She's good for 00:26:55.609 --> 00:26:58.289 service or prostitution at best, you know, in 00:26:58.289 --> 00:27:01.930 that context. And it's her, the weakest of the 00:27:01.930 --> 00:27:05.789 weak, who can really show us who Christ is and 00:27:05.789 --> 00:27:08.269 that he comes and descends to that place to raise 00:27:08.269 --> 00:27:13.029 us up out of it. And those around her, not the 00:27:13.029 --> 00:27:19.460 pagans, are able to see reality as it is. It's 00:27:19.460 --> 00:27:22.059 like the anecdote about Polycarp, Saint Polycarp 00:27:22.059 --> 00:27:26.079 of Smyrna. He's being martyred. And the emperor 00:27:26.079 --> 00:27:29.859 of the time goes, repent, man, like just change 00:27:29.859 --> 00:27:32.180 and deny Christ and we'll leave you alone. Because 00:27:32.180 --> 00:27:33.859 he was old at the time, right? Saint Polycarp 00:27:33.859 --> 00:27:36.440 was aged. And he looks at him and he goes, you 00:27:36.440 --> 00:27:38.759 know, 86 years I've served him and he's done 00:27:38.759 --> 00:27:41.230 me no evil. why would I deny him now? You may 00:27:41.230 --> 00:27:42.970 leave him now after all these years. Exactly. 00:27:42.970 --> 00:27:45.230 And then the emperor looks at him and goes, okay, 00:27:45.269 --> 00:27:47.650 well, at least curse the infidel and the atheist, 00:27:47.690 --> 00:27:49.210 which is what they called the Christians, right? 00:27:49.369 --> 00:27:51.509 So he points to the pagans of the audience and 00:27:51.509 --> 00:27:55.049 he's, I love St. John, St. Chrysostom, St. Polycarp, 00:27:55.049 --> 00:27:59.140 sorry, because he's, He's got cheek. He points 00:27:59.140 --> 00:28:01.480 to the pagans and goes, cursed be the infidelity. 00:28:03.160 --> 00:28:06.519 And it's like that example is left to us and 00:28:06.519 --> 00:28:08.259 people still read it. And they're like, look 00:28:08.259 --> 00:28:10.819 at the man of faith and bravery. And everybody 00:28:10.819 --> 00:28:12.980 around him in the Colosseum is like, that guy's 00:28:12.980 --> 00:28:14.779 an idiot. Look, he was just offered freedom. 00:28:14.900 --> 00:28:18.680 Why didn't he pursue it? And then it's only with 00:28:18.680 --> 00:28:20.680 the eyes of faith. It's only in reading the church 00:28:20.680 --> 00:28:22.920 fathers and discipling our minds and our wills 00:28:22.920 --> 00:28:24.839 that we can see and be like, he's the one that's 00:28:24.839 --> 00:28:27.599 really free. right the rest of us are enslaved 00:28:27.599 --> 00:28:29.480 to something a fear that somebody's going to 00:28:29.480 --> 00:28:31.920 come and take something from me a fear that this 00:28:31.920 --> 00:28:33.839 relationship is going to end and i won't find 00:28:33.839 --> 00:28:36.900 anyone a fear that this pleasure that i'm attached 00:28:36.900 --> 00:28:39.680 to might get removed or found out or or i might 00:28:39.680 --> 00:28:41.960 be embarrassed by it it's the rest of us who 00:28:41.960 --> 00:28:43.980 are slaves it's polycarp standing in the arena 00:28:43.980 --> 00:28:47.700 without fear it goes okay cool i've been with 00:28:47.700 --> 00:28:49.819 him my whole life i know nothing's changing today 00:28:50.400 --> 00:28:54.119 You can't scare the person who believes in Christ. 00:28:54.480 --> 00:28:57.579 And that's what, at the very start of the conversation, 00:28:57.740 --> 00:29:01.480 I said, St. Athanasius, you know, he says this 00:29:01.480 --> 00:29:04.059 thing about proving the resurrection. And I was 00:29:04.059 --> 00:29:07.079 expecting a philosophical proof. And he goes, 00:29:07.220 --> 00:29:09.500 the real proof of the resurrection is that people 00:29:09.500 --> 00:29:13.519 who were aforetime, previously, afraid. now go 00:29:13.519 --> 00:29:16.740 to their death willingly. Even happily, they 00:29:16.740 --> 00:29:18.619 profess their faith in Christ. Not because they're 00:29:18.619 --> 00:29:20.799 sadists, masochists, or whatever. It's because 00:29:20.799 --> 00:29:22.819 these people know that Christ is the reality 00:29:22.819 --> 00:29:25.400 of all things. And what they're doing is pursuing 00:29:25.400 --> 00:29:29.400 truth. And so I've always taken that text as 00:29:29.400 --> 00:29:32.200 a maxim in reverse to be like, so if I believe 00:29:32.200 --> 00:29:34.539 the resurrection to be true, if I think Christ 00:29:34.539 --> 00:29:37.299 is truly risen, then I shouldn't be bound by 00:29:37.299 --> 00:29:40.779 fear or by slavery. Because that's actually the 00:29:40.779 --> 00:29:43.019 proof, apparently. that the resurrection is true, 00:29:43.099 --> 00:29:45.160 is that the Christians are free of any of these 00:29:45.160 --> 00:29:47.519 chains. And it's like when you take that in reverse, 00:29:47.619 --> 00:29:49.359 you're like, that just left the realm of theology 00:29:49.359 --> 00:29:51.460 and became super, what we would call today, a 00:29:51.460 --> 00:29:53.500 quote -unquote practical. You know, suddenly 00:29:53.500 --> 00:29:58.160 that's real. And all the church fathers and mothers, 00:29:58.299 --> 00:30:00.700 when you're reading even the most philosophical 00:30:00.700 --> 00:30:02.559 of texts, it's going to come back to something 00:30:02.559 --> 00:30:05.500 that is real, that says like, look, if you say 00:30:05.500 --> 00:30:08.279 this, you're saying something dramatically different 00:30:08.279 --> 00:30:10.779 about what it is to believe in Christ, who he 00:30:10.779 --> 00:30:13.259 is, and how we live the life in him. That's something 00:30:13.259 --> 00:30:15.480 where I think when we teach church councils in 00:30:15.480 --> 00:30:17.859 Sunday school, a lot of people leave and they're 00:30:17.859 --> 00:30:19.160 like, there's a good guy, there's a bad guy, 00:30:19.220 --> 00:30:21.039 there's a date, there's an emperor, there's a 00:30:21.039 --> 00:30:24.359 place. Done. And what I try to impress on people 00:30:24.359 --> 00:30:26.119 is I'm like, no, guys. The what, where, when, 00:30:26.180 --> 00:30:29.539 just kind of a laundry list of facts. I'll be 00:30:29.539 --> 00:30:33.559 like, guys, look, you didn't get... 300 bishops 00:30:33.559 --> 00:30:36.299 from all across the known world some of whom 00:30:36.299 --> 00:30:38.880 died on the way you know to get together in one 00:30:38.880 --> 00:30:40.880 place to be like guys we're all agreed right 00:30:40.880 --> 00:30:43.420 it's all cool consubstantial okay awesome let's 00:30:43.420 --> 00:30:45.799 go home you know it's because they thought this 00:30:45.799 --> 00:30:47.559 stuff mattered because they were like the christ 00:30:47.559 --> 00:30:50.680 you believe in dramatically changes the rest 00:30:50.680 --> 00:30:53.460 of your life and everything about it you know 00:30:53.460 --> 00:30:56.299 including how you're going to act tomorrow, including 00:30:56.299 --> 00:30:57.880 the Eucharist, including what you're going to 00:30:57.880 --> 00:31:00.400 sing, so on and so forth. And I think it's that 00:31:00.400 --> 00:31:02.359 depth of reality that we're trying to communicate 00:31:02.359 --> 00:31:04.059 to people. We're talking like, hey, read the 00:31:04.059 --> 00:31:06.240 Church Fathers. This stuff is important because 00:31:06.240 --> 00:31:09.319 we want to see where all of that fits in this 00:31:09.319 --> 00:31:11.539 grand schema that is the life of the Church, 00:31:11.740 --> 00:31:15.119 of which the Church Fathers are beautiful witnesses, 00:31:15.299 --> 00:31:16.900 but they're not the whole life of the Church, 00:31:17.019 --> 00:31:20.740 right? I'll often cite to people just one stanza 00:31:20.740 --> 00:31:23.190 from Tasbeha, and I'll be like... Just think 00:31:23.190 --> 00:31:25.849 of this one stanza. You and I just read pages 00:31:25.849 --> 00:31:28.849 of the Church Fathers. And this one stanza here 00:31:28.849 --> 00:31:31.690 has in this beautiful little short form summary 00:31:31.690 --> 00:31:35.009 all of these thoughts in it. If you can get that 00:31:35.009 --> 00:31:37.210 context. You know, and so there'll be some people 00:31:37.210 --> 00:31:40.130 who go to Tasbeha and got that. And then there'll 00:31:40.130 --> 00:31:42.710 be a bunch of people who are like, now my mind 00:31:42.710 --> 00:31:45.190 is opened. Now I really understand that that 00:31:45.190 --> 00:31:49.170 has so much depth. Right. You know, there is 00:31:49.170 --> 00:31:52.759 a saying today. The hell you're willing to die 00:31:52.759 --> 00:31:56.599 on. Yes. And it's not that people aren't willing 00:31:56.599 --> 00:31:59.599 to die for what they believe. It's that what 00:31:59.599 --> 00:32:02.240 they're willing to die for is not worth dying 00:32:02.240 --> 00:32:07.940 for. And we mentioned already, you know, finances 00:32:07.940 --> 00:32:12.119 and money. A lot of people today tie the concept 00:32:12.119 --> 00:32:16.279 of freedom to money. Financial freedom. That's 00:32:16.279 --> 00:32:18.750 what freedom means. to a lot of people. Yeah. 00:32:18.930 --> 00:32:21.910 And then we meet with people, we encounter people 00:32:21.910 --> 00:32:26.829 who had, you know, much more money than we're 00:32:26.829 --> 00:32:29.970 ever going to see. And they tell us like these 00:32:29.970 --> 00:32:33.250 church fathers, we have stories of saints who 00:32:33.250 --> 00:32:36.890 left enormous amounts of resources. And these 00:32:36.890 --> 00:32:38.930 fathers, they tell us, they explain why to us. 00:32:39.009 --> 00:32:43.029 It's not just a matter of, you know, having the 00:32:43.029 --> 00:32:47.279 right person in charge of the money. results 00:32:47.279 --> 00:32:51.539 in good outcome is that it changes you. If you, 00:32:51.680 --> 00:32:57.420 let's say you make $10 a month and you give to 00:32:57.420 --> 00:33:00.619 the poor $1, you think if I make a hundred or 00:33:00.619 --> 00:33:02.579 if I make a thousand, I would be giving more. 00:33:03.319 --> 00:33:05.259 But the irony is, and what they teach us is that 00:33:05.259 --> 00:33:08.819 you actually can end up giving less. So it changes 00:33:08.819 --> 00:33:11.519 you and you wouldn't. you know instinctively 00:33:11.519 --> 00:33:15.299 know that you know that something needs to be 00:33:15.299 --> 00:33:17.880 looked at but what exactly and then when we when 00:33:17.880 --> 00:33:21.380 we read the fathers when we experience what they're 00:33:21.380 --> 00:33:24.700 experiencing and begin to kind of like you like 00:33:24.700 --> 00:33:27.460 you said earlier be patient readers with them 00:33:27.460 --> 00:33:29.890 we begin to see like why that change happens 00:33:29.890 --> 00:33:32.670 and how that change happens. And in fact, you 00:33:32.670 --> 00:33:34.710 know, kind of like a veil that's been being put 00:33:34.710 --> 00:33:38.410 over our eyes just so we can think that the more 00:33:38.410 --> 00:33:40.069 the better when it comes to finances, when it 00:33:40.069 --> 00:33:42.690 comes to resources, right? When it comes to our 00:33:42.690 --> 00:33:45.730 ability to consume, the more, you know, the better. 00:33:46.279 --> 00:33:48.819 and they go in a completely different direction 00:33:48.819 --> 00:33:51.779 and that's why it's so important and it's not 00:33:51.779 --> 00:33:55.740 just you know important on a philosophical level 00:33:55.740 --> 00:33:59.460 but very much practical it's not something that 00:33:59.460 --> 00:34:02.079 you can say to yourself because some people i 00:34:02.079 --> 00:34:05.079 i do encounter have convinced them i've written 00:34:05.079 --> 00:34:07.039 off church father and saying like this is all 00:34:07.039 --> 00:34:09.760 philosophical stuff it doesn't really impact 00:34:09.760 --> 00:34:12.820 me practically speaking like my day -to -day 00:34:12.820 --> 00:34:16.159 living my faith All I need is Christ and I believe 00:34:16.159 --> 00:34:18.719 in Christ and my relationship is with Christ. 00:34:18.920 --> 00:34:21.960 The rest of it is just secondary to that. It 00:34:21.960 --> 00:34:25.340 doesn't, you know, impact that. Whereas these 00:34:25.340 --> 00:34:28.469 were people who were. approached him not as a 00:34:28.469 --> 00:34:30.929 sort of puzzle to be solved, but a mystery to 00:34:30.929 --> 00:34:33.230 be experienced, right? To be encountered. They 00:34:33.230 --> 00:34:35.230 knew that it's not just about getting the right 00:34:35.230 --> 00:34:38.389 bits and pieces of information oriented in the 00:34:38.389 --> 00:34:40.670 right way. And then we figure out what the Trinity 00:34:40.670 --> 00:34:43.269 is. And we just know it and we write it off and 00:34:43.269 --> 00:34:45.349 move on with our lives. This is an experience, 00:34:45.369 --> 00:34:49.010 a mystery that you have to live with kind of 00:34:49.010 --> 00:34:52.750 the discomfort of not knowing. And they tell 00:34:52.750 --> 00:34:55.559 us what that's like. And they invite us. to share 00:34:55.559 --> 00:34:57.179 in that mystery, to share in that experience. 00:34:57.260 --> 00:34:59.219 And you have like St. John Chrysostom, one of 00:34:59.219 --> 00:35:02.059 his famous sayings, he goes, look, any God you 00:35:02.059 --> 00:35:05.079 can understand or comprehend is no God at all. 00:35:05.219 --> 00:35:08.030 Yeah. You know, and it's like, wow. His point 00:35:08.030 --> 00:35:11.570 is just to be like, you're not out here doing 00:35:11.570 --> 00:35:15.769 an intellectual pursuit, trying to gain some 00:35:15.769 --> 00:35:18.190 sort of intellectual knowledge and say, ah, there's 00:35:18.190 --> 00:35:21.429 the Trinity. We had that. We had Gnosticism in 00:35:21.429 --> 00:35:23.949 the first and second century, where Gnosticism 00:35:23.949 --> 00:35:27.710 was an early body -denying heresy, if you will. 00:35:27.829 --> 00:35:30.449 They denied the goodness of the material reality. 00:35:31.199 --> 00:35:33.300 And they even really denied the incarnation, 00:35:33.420 --> 00:35:36.019 therefore. But they also thought that one of 00:35:36.019 --> 00:35:38.579 the ways to real salvation was secret knowledge. 00:35:38.820 --> 00:35:40.440 That's where gnosis comes from, which is just 00:35:40.440 --> 00:35:43.440 the Greek word for knowledge. And so the church 00:35:43.440 --> 00:35:46.619 already experienced this sense of a faith that 00:35:46.619 --> 00:35:49.559 is just a heady material where you kind of know 00:35:49.559 --> 00:35:51.260 the right facts and then you're admitted to the 00:35:51.260 --> 00:35:53.119 pearly gates. You know, Peter has the pop quiz 00:35:53.119 --> 00:35:55.099 at the pearly gates, if you will, as the pop 00:35:55.099 --> 00:35:59.469 image likes to go. And the church fathers and 00:35:59.469 --> 00:36:02.130 mothers were like, no, we already experienced 00:36:02.130 --> 00:36:05.690 that idea. We've already had this problem. And 00:36:05.690 --> 00:36:08.369 we've given many answers as to why this isn't 00:36:08.369 --> 00:36:12.969 the totality of the life in Christ. To cite another 00:36:12.969 --> 00:36:15.110 example, you were talking about our attachment 00:36:15.110 --> 00:36:17.389 to money. And what's really funny is when you 00:36:17.389 --> 00:36:20.050 read somebody like St. John Cassian, who in the 00:36:20.050 --> 00:36:22.429 4th century goes to the desert. He's from the 00:36:22.429 --> 00:36:24.510 West. He goes to the desert of Egypt to be like, 00:36:24.550 --> 00:36:26.750 we want to know what real monasticism looks like. 00:36:27.030 --> 00:36:28.610 Because, of course, it started in Egypt, and 00:36:28.610 --> 00:36:30.550 that's not an Egypt pride thing. It's just, you 00:36:30.550 --> 00:36:32.190 know, we had the Desert Fathers. It is what it 00:36:32.190 --> 00:36:35.460 is. And we had a desert. yeah well a lot of it 00:36:35.460 --> 00:36:37.659 a lot of desert you know and and he goes out 00:36:37.659 --> 00:36:39.420 there and he interviews different church fathers 00:36:39.420 --> 00:36:41.280 right so we have the the interview with abba 00:36:41.280 --> 00:36:43.559 moses is the beginning and and many scholars 00:36:43.559 --> 00:36:47.079 take that to be our moses the strong right And 00:36:47.079 --> 00:36:49.519 in his institutes, which is part one of the work, 00:36:49.559 --> 00:36:51.639 he's got institutes, which is sort of how the 00:36:51.639 --> 00:36:53.920 monks live. And part two is the conferences where 00:36:53.920 --> 00:36:56.420 he's like, yo, what's what salvation look like? 00:36:56.739 --> 00:36:58.980 How does that work? You know, they go sit down 00:36:58.980 --> 00:37:00.639 with various fathers and they'll be like, so 00:37:00.639 --> 00:37:03.420 how do I achieve purity of my eye? You know, 00:37:03.420 --> 00:37:07.369 because I've tried and it's not working. And 00:37:07.369 --> 00:37:09.889 in the institutes, they'll be like, what about 00:37:09.889 --> 00:37:12.510 the monk that says, I don't need to work because 00:37:12.510 --> 00:37:14.789 work isn't important. I just have to pursue God 00:37:14.789 --> 00:37:17.909 and live a life of simple faith and all this 00:37:17.909 --> 00:37:20.550 stuff. And he goes, no. In the Egyptian monasteries, 00:37:20.550 --> 00:37:22.949 they were very clear. Every monk had to do some 00:37:22.949 --> 00:37:26.750 sort of work to be able to make ends meet. And 00:37:26.750 --> 00:37:29.110 one of the rules apparently at the time was the 00:37:29.110 --> 00:37:31.090 monk had to have a little bit extra. So he could 00:37:31.090 --> 00:37:33.349 donate to charity. And then in the text, they 00:37:33.349 --> 00:37:35.809 go into the access. He goes, look, some monks 00:37:35.809 --> 00:37:37.710 are now believing that they should actually dedicate 00:37:37.710 --> 00:37:40.829 less time to prayer and more time to doing more 00:37:40.829 --> 00:37:42.969 work so they can make more money because then 00:37:42.969 --> 00:37:45.110 they'll give more to charity. And it's like all 00:37:45.110 --> 00:37:48.010 of these weird ways that we formulated excuses 00:37:48.010 --> 00:37:50.650 for how we want to live our lives, they've already 00:37:50.650 --> 00:37:53.570 had, even in the monastery in the fourth century. 00:37:54.070 --> 00:37:56.210 And so it's one of those things where you read 00:37:56.210 --> 00:37:59.260 and you're like, okay, as you said, Abuna. There 00:37:59.260 --> 00:38:01.659 is really nothing new under the sun. We encountered 00:38:01.659 --> 00:38:04.460 this idea. And I think the beautiful thing about 00:38:04.460 --> 00:38:07.599 inhabiting or living in a tradition, as opposed 00:38:07.599 --> 00:38:10.699 to, say, post -Reformation, where the individual 00:38:10.699 --> 00:38:13.300 becomes the rule of the law, right? Here we mean 00:38:13.300 --> 00:38:16.679 the Protestant Reformation, where the hierarchy 00:38:16.679 --> 00:38:18.840 or the hierarchical status of the Catholic Church 00:38:18.840 --> 00:38:21.440 is called into question, and the impetus is put 00:38:21.440 --> 00:38:23.639 back to the individual believer as Martin Luther 00:38:23.639 --> 00:38:27.760 leaves the Catholic Church. Even Western secular 00:38:27.760 --> 00:38:30.480 scholars want to be like, look, maybe individualism 00:38:30.480 --> 00:38:33.159 took its rise from around that time or something 00:38:33.159 --> 00:38:35.679 like that. Because now suddenly you become the 00:38:35.679 --> 00:38:38.719 measure. We're in the early church or we're in 00:38:38.719 --> 00:38:40.780 an Orthodox church. You're like, you're not the 00:38:40.780 --> 00:38:42.599 measure. Somebody else has asked that question. 00:38:43.000 --> 00:38:45.340 And it's not because they were smarter than you 00:38:45.340 --> 00:38:47.539 that they answered it. It's because they had 00:38:47.539 --> 00:38:49.659 the answer that was given by the tradition, which 00:38:49.659 --> 00:38:53.440 is the living faith of the church. is interesting. 00:38:53.480 --> 00:38:57.219 It feels slavish to people today, right? Because 00:38:57.219 --> 00:38:59.780 freedom has become the measure of reality. But 00:38:59.780 --> 00:39:01.579 in fact, what the Church Fathers tell us is like, 00:39:01.619 --> 00:39:04.239 this is liberty. You're not out here, you know, 00:39:04.260 --> 00:39:06.800 struggling with a disease of your eyes in terms 00:39:06.800 --> 00:39:09.219 of lust, let's say, and going, I can't figure 00:39:09.219 --> 00:39:11.380 it out. What am I going to do? You know, is there 00:39:11.380 --> 00:39:14.239 a good... whatever 30 -step program some modernists 00:39:14.239 --> 00:39:16.460 come up with, they're like, no, we've been at 00:39:16.460 --> 00:39:18.639 this now for 2 ,000 years, and we have solutions 00:39:18.639 --> 00:39:22.199 for you. We have ways of freeing you. And I think 00:39:22.199 --> 00:39:24.559 that's the beauty of Orthodox tradition in the 00:39:24.559 --> 00:39:27.019 end, right? We have all these beautiful theological 00:39:27.019 --> 00:39:30.019 writings and treatises and whatnot, and they 00:39:30.019 --> 00:39:33.199 are very rich and deep and amazing. But I think 00:39:33.199 --> 00:39:36.900 people often think that they stop there. where 00:39:36.900 --> 00:39:40.079 it's like, no, the bleed down, if you will, from 00:39:40.079 --> 00:39:42.840 those treatises is the everyday individual going, 00:39:43.000 --> 00:39:45.619 I just don't know how to stop swearing. I can't 00:39:45.619 --> 00:39:50.179 stop envying people that do well. And my vainglory 00:39:50.179 --> 00:39:52.480 suffers when I hear something good said about 00:39:52.480 --> 00:39:54.440 somebody else, and I just don't know how to cure 00:39:54.440 --> 00:39:56.139 myself of this disease. And the church fathers 00:39:56.139 --> 00:39:58.500 are like, yeah, we know. We've been doing this 00:39:58.500 --> 00:40:01.360 for 2 ,000 years. Here are some solutions. Here's 00:40:01.360 --> 00:40:05.469 a way of being freed. And I think... when people 00:40:05.469 --> 00:40:08.389 really encounter that they suddenly start to 00:40:08.389 --> 00:40:11.670 go like this is great i can finally be free of 00:40:11.670 --> 00:40:14.050 my chains and i think that's the beauty of the 00:40:14.050 --> 00:40:16.769 faith right as christ says that he has come that 00:40:16.769 --> 00:40:19.309 we might we might be free that we might have 00:40:19.309 --> 00:40:24.099 life right and He means that. An analogy, Abuna 00:40:24.099 --> 00:40:26.980 Athanasios in Kitchener, he likes to use this. 00:40:26.980 --> 00:40:28.219 He likes to go, you know, the church fathers 00:40:28.219 --> 00:40:31.820 and mothers and the desert, that's like the university 00:40:31.820 --> 00:40:35.039 ground, as universities used to be anyway, where 00:40:35.039 --> 00:40:37.239 people went out and they did experiments and 00:40:37.239 --> 00:40:40.079 they tried things and they went, you know, that 00:40:40.079 --> 00:40:41.980 doesn't work. We did that one, that was really 00:40:41.980 --> 00:40:44.179 bad. We did this, though, and it worked really 00:40:44.179 --> 00:40:47.300 well. So that, if you will, out of that tradition, 00:40:47.400 --> 00:40:49.260 out of that lived experience, we can go, okay, 00:40:49.340 --> 00:40:52.000 there's a path. And some other people have trodden 00:40:52.000 --> 00:40:54.159 the path and gotten so far and fallen and gotten 00:40:54.159 --> 00:40:57.219 so much farther and fallen and some other people 00:40:57.219 --> 00:40:59.039 have gotten the whole way. And we have their 00:40:59.039 --> 00:41:01.340 example to be like, here's a way to track forward. 00:41:01.820 --> 00:41:03.699 Here's a way to be freed. Here's a way to be 00:41:03.699 --> 00:41:06.360 liberated. Here's a way to not let sin rule my 00:41:06.360 --> 00:41:09.920 life. And it's like, well, we would be done if 00:41:09.920 --> 00:41:12.239 we knew there was a way to real freedom, to real 00:41:12.239 --> 00:41:15.639 true liberty in Christ, to be fully alive. And 00:41:15.639 --> 00:41:19.599 we said, That seems inconvenient. I'm going to 00:41:19.599 --> 00:41:21.420 leave all of that and figure out my own way. 00:41:22.219 --> 00:41:24.940 I'll joke with people. We're a community of a 00:41:24.940 --> 00:41:28.159 million pharmacists and other professions too, 00:41:28.199 --> 00:41:30.199 of course. Not to hate on pharmacists, but organic 00:41:30.199 --> 00:41:33.360 chemistry is one of the hardest things I ever 00:41:33.360 --> 00:41:35.480 studied in my life. And I'll have people where 00:41:35.480 --> 00:41:37.239 I'm like, physical chemistry is even harder. 00:41:37.440 --> 00:41:39.119 Organic chemistry is one of the most difficult 00:41:39.119 --> 00:41:41.719 subjects that ever existed. For the engineers 00:41:41.719 --> 00:41:44.260 out there, sorry, Bona. You know, I'm like, physics 00:41:44.260 --> 00:41:46.159 is the hardest thing I ever tried to do. And 00:41:46.159 --> 00:41:48.039 I was terrible at it. And then I'll have people 00:41:48.039 --> 00:41:49.539 that come from these backgrounds like, no, no, 00:41:49.579 --> 00:41:51.239 no, I can't read. And I'm like, are you joking? 00:41:51.699 --> 00:41:55.179 It took me hours to learn what a vector is. And 00:41:55.179 --> 00:41:58.239 you're out here doing, you know, crazy, complicated 00:41:58.239 --> 00:42:00.900 calculus. And you're telling me that you can't 00:42:00.900 --> 00:42:04.739 read the life of Antony? No, man, come on. If 00:42:04.739 --> 00:42:07.559 you knew what that holds, if you knew the treasure, 00:42:07.739 --> 00:42:10.440 the pearl of great price, you'd be looking for 00:42:10.440 --> 00:42:15.059 it. Absolutely. And I'm very glad that we had 00:42:15.059 --> 00:42:20.519 this conversation because it's often been presented 00:42:20.519 --> 00:42:24.099 as the Church Fathers is this kind of black box. 00:42:24.179 --> 00:42:26.579 We really don't know how to access it, how it 00:42:26.579 --> 00:42:29.940 works. work somehow as long as there's one person 00:42:29.940 --> 00:42:32.940 in the church who knows what it is that's sufficient 00:42:32.940 --> 00:42:36.840 and we don't all need to to know or to read or 00:42:36.840 --> 00:42:41.860 to um get acquainted start getting familiar with 00:42:41.860 --> 00:42:43.639 the fathers because it's just at the end of the 00:42:43.639 --> 00:42:47.860 day you know it's really not that relevant or 00:42:47.860 --> 00:42:51.860 accessible and it may be uh also a little bit 00:42:51.860 --> 00:42:57.300 uh outdated and uh now we know so much more we're 00:42:57.300 --> 00:43:00.039 so much more enlightened and and all of that 00:43:00.039 --> 00:43:03.760 stuff and and the funny thing is this very thought 00:43:03.760 --> 00:43:08.900 of now we know better yeah is uh is directly 00:43:08.900 --> 00:43:11.900 confronted by the father's like now we know better 00:43:11.900 --> 00:43:18.019 like you know you have christ who is um is alive 00:43:18.019 --> 00:43:20.380 on the altar and you come to him and you say 00:43:20.380 --> 00:43:23.159 like now we know better now we have all of these 00:43:23.159 --> 00:43:26.639 different ways of living or different ways of 00:43:26.639 --> 00:43:31.420 salvation or different you know path to to eternity 00:43:31.420 --> 00:43:35.320 and no this isn't it this is the path this is 00:43:35.320 --> 00:43:36.980 the way this is the way the truth and the life 00:43:36.980 --> 00:43:43.059 right so i wanted to emphasize that This isn't 00:43:43.059 --> 00:43:51.880 something that's reserved for a special group 00:43:51.880 --> 00:43:55.099 in the church, either the professional, the ordained, 00:43:55.099 --> 00:44:02.079 either priest or servant or deacon. Or the PhD. 00:44:02.400 --> 00:44:05.579 Or the PhD, someone who's... you know interested 00:44:05.579 --> 00:44:07.440 in this kind of stuff so much so that they go 00:44:07.440 --> 00:44:10.559 and get a degree and study this is for everyone 00:44:10.559 --> 00:44:14.280 and it's not just for everyone this is what we 00:44:14.280 --> 00:44:16.360 do in the church it's not something separate 00:44:16.360 --> 00:44:19.860 from what we do this is what we do and here we 00:44:19.860 --> 00:44:22.800 have someone who's you know in his own words 00:44:23.559 --> 00:44:25.699 Boringly average. Boringly average. Yes. In his 00:44:25.699 --> 00:44:29.420 own words, boringly average and found, you know, 00:44:29.420 --> 00:44:34.280 so much solace and so much depth and wealth in 00:44:34.280 --> 00:44:40.039 the fathers and went so far as to take that to 00:44:40.039 --> 00:44:42.219 his own community, to his own church, to have 00:44:42.219 --> 00:44:46.159 a meeting, to have a way of bringing more people 00:44:46.159 --> 00:44:49.480 in conversation with the fathers. And all I want 00:44:49.480 --> 00:44:52.510 to say is this is... very doable why haven't 00:44:52.510 --> 00:44:54.289 we thought of it before why haven't we done it 00:44:54.289 --> 00:44:58.250 before and i pray my prayer is that every church 00:44:58.250 --> 00:45:00.869 does something like this you know this is not 00:45:00.869 --> 00:45:03.590 uh something that's copyright so you can all 00:45:03.590 --> 00:45:06.989 go ahead and copy and do exactly the same thing 00:45:06.989 --> 00:45:08.789 because it's wonderful it brings people into 00:45:08.789 --> 00:45:11.650 such wonderful conversation important conversations 00:45:11.650 --> 00:45:14.690 about real things things that really matter and 00:45:14.690 --> 00:45:19.349 having conversations in a way that uh allows 00:45:19.349 --> 00:45:23.460 us to go uh behind or beyond any sort of modern 00:45:23.460 --> 00:45:26.559 veil that we have over our eyes and to experience 00:45:26.559 --> 00:45:28.579 things and to see things for what they really 00:45:28.579 --> 00:45:31.920 are so with that i want to just give peter uh 00:45:31.920 --> 00:45:35.000 opportunity for any final words any encouragement 00:45:35.000 --> 00:45:41.800 leave us with um i think i i think really like 00:45:41.800 --> 00:45:46.739 what you said abuna is is very true i um i happened 00:45:46.739 --> 00:45:48.840 on the church fathers as an accident of god's 00:45:48.840 --> 00:45:53.340 grace and I didn't think at any point when I 00:45:53.340 --> 00:45:56.440 was reading them that I was going to talk to 00:45:56.440 --> 00:45:58.780 other people about them. I remember having a 00:45:58.780 --> 00:46:00.940 very strong feeling at certain points. I'd read 00:46:00.940 --> 00:46:02.719 things. I'd be like, I can't believe other people 00:46:02.719 --> 00:46:05.039 don't know this. And it wasn't because I thought 00:46:05.039 --> 00:46:07.039 they were stupid. I just thought it was so cool. 00:46:07.380 --> 00:46:10.079 This is so rich. I can't believe nobody else 00:46:10.079 --> 00:46:12.860 has taught other people this or said this. And 00:46:12.860 --> 00:46:17.599 I didn't read so that I could educate other people. 00:46:17.880 --> 00:46:21.159 But immediately what came to my mind was, wow, 00:46:21.360 --> 00:46:24.380 really other people need to hear this. And by 00:46:24.380 --> 00:46:27.800 God's grace, through certain avenues, an opportunity 00:46:27.800 --> 00:46:30.300 came where it was like, okay, maybe there's room 00:46:30.300 --> 00:46:32.159 for a meeting. And it didn't work at first. And 00:46:32.159 --> 00:46:33.679 I'd show up to this meeting and it would just 00:46:33.679 --> 00:46:36.579 be me. And I'd sit alone for 45 minutes or an 00:46:36.579 --> 00:46:40.360 hour and go, okay, I'll go home. Or one or two 00:46:40.360 --> 00:46:42.239 people would show up and I'd go, okay, let's 00:46:42.239 --> 00:46:43.760 chat. Do you want to read the book together? 00:46:43.900 --> 00:46:47.719 And that kind of thing. And for whatever reason, 00:46:47.760 --> 00:46:50.860 God in his own time allowed it to be such that 00:46:50.860 --> 00:46:53.840 more people were interested. And then people 00:46:53.840 --> 00:46:55.840 have come in where I'm like, this is amazing. 00:46:56.019 --> 00:46:59.360 I get to learn so much, A, from preparing the 00:46:59.360 --> 00:47:01.579 content, but B, from listening to other people 00:47:01.579 --> 00:47:03.519 reflect on the meaning of this text in their 00:47:03.519 --> 00:47:06.920 lives and how the person in the group who's an 00:47:06.920 --> 00:47:10.000 architect and who thinks about beauty and planning 00:47:10.000 --> 00:47:13.300 and layout can read a text and be like, look. 00:47:13.659 --> 00:47:15.599 This spoke to me in my career in the way that 00:47:15.599 --> 00:47:18.519 I'm to live. It really reminds me of something 00:47:18.519 --> 00:47:22.340 C .S. Lewis said. He makes the point in his time, 00:47:22.420 --> 00:47:24.699 he goes, look, we have more than enough catechists 00:47:24.699 --> 00:47:27.019 and people talking religion out there. We have 00:47:27.019 --> 00:47:30.019 enough theological books. And of course, at his 00:47:30.019 --> 00:47:31.800 time, there were more than there are now. But, 00:47:31.840 --> 00:47:34.340 you know, in any case, I think his point is true. 00:47:34.400 --> 00:47:37.440 He goes, what we really need is more people who 00:47:37.440 --> 00:47:40.690 are like geologists. who are Christians and devout, 00:47:40.710 --> 00:47:43.210 and are going to let that penetrate everything 00:47:43.210 --> 00:47:46.010 that they write, who are going to live true, 00:47:46.110 --> 00:47:49.690 authentic Christian lives, inspired maybe by 00:47:49.690 --> 00:47:51.050 the church fathers, he didn't say that part, 00:47:51.150 --> 00:47:53.929 but enlightened by their writings, that is going 00:47:53.929 --> 00:47:56.849 to penetrate every aspect of society. Because 00:47:56.849 --> 00:47:59.969 we have people out there who can write books 00:47:59.969 --> 00:48:02.949 and this kind of stuff, maybe. But even though... 00:48:03.179 --> 00:48:06.119 There are common folk, if you will, lay folk 00:48:06.119 --> 00:48:10.039 like me, who don't have a degree or, you know, 00:48:10.039 --> 00:48:12.480 I'm not a member of clergy and things like this, 00:48:12.579 --> 00:48:16.840 where it's like, if we can live out our vocation 00:48:16.840 --> 00:48:20.559 in Christ properly, inspired perhaps by the writings 00:48:20.559 --> 00:48:22.699 of these church fathers and mothers, that's where 00:48:22.699 --> 00:48:26.360 society will change. God bless our priests, you, 00:48:26.460 --> 00:48:28.699 Abuna, all the other priests in our diocese. 00:48:28.699 --> 00:48:32.349 You guys work laboriously and without end. But 00:48:32.349 --> 00:48:35.050 there's only so much that the priests can do 00:48:35.050 --> 00:48:36.909 if the rest of the body are going to go, okay, 00:48:36.989 --> 00:48:39.630 let's leave it to those guys. You know, good 00:48:39.630 --> 00:48:42.349 work, Abuna. And it's like, well, the rest of 00:48:42.349 --> 00:48:45.110 us are called to work with you, to follow your 00:48:45.110 --> 00:48:49.070 lead, to work wherever God has called us to say, 00:48:49.090 --> 00:48:51.309 like, what else can I add? Following the lead 00:48:51.309 --> 00:48:53.750 of the father in the church or in the diocese 00:48:53.750 --> 00:48:57.880 and say, like, where's my two cents? it reminds 00:48:57.880 --> 00:49:00.380 me of a text everybody knows i i i love this 00:49:00.380 --> 00:49:02.179 text from the homilies of macarius i believe 00:49:02.179 --> 00:49:05.099 it's homily too or he'll be like look some people 00:49:05.099 --> 00:49:08.139 out there read some people pray and some people 00:49:08.139 --> 00:49:10.440 work and that was in his monastery right and 00:49:10.440 --> 00:49:12.889 he goes the one reading shouldn't look at the 00:49:12.889 --> 00:49:14.489 one working and be like, that guy's an idiot. 00:49:14.590 --> 00:49:16.849 He doesn't know anything. If only he read more. 00:49:17.210 --> 00:49:19.210 But the guy working shouldn't look at the guy 00:49:19.210 --> 00:49:21.349 praying and be like, wait, why is that guy not 00:49:21.349 --> 00:49:23.989 working and helping me out? And better yet, he 00:49:23.989 --> 00:49:26.429 even says of the guy praying, he shouldn't look 00:49:26.429 --> 00:49:29.860 to the other two and say, you know, the... the 00:49:29.860 --> 00:49:32.900 half wits over there who are not really doing 00:49:32.900 --> 00:49:34.679 the real spiritual stuff they're only working 00:49:34.679 --> 00:49:36.980 or praying he says the guy who's praying should 00:49:36.980 --> 00:49:39.119 look to the one studying and say whatever he 00:49:39.119 --> 00:49:41.760 reads will accrue to my benefit because what 00:49:41.760 --> 00:49:44.280 he reads will be added to me through my learning 00:49:44.280 --> 00:49:46.559 from him and the one who works should look at 00:49:46.559 --> 00:49:49.420 the one praying and say That guy prays for me 00:49:49.420 --> 00:49:51.360 so that the work may be blessed, and so on. And 00:49:51.360 --> 00:49:53.179 he has this idea of a whole body coming together 00:49:53.179 --> 00:49:55.239 and saying, like, let's actually work together. 00:49:55.440 --> 00:49:58.059 Let's actually be the body of Christ, be inspired 00:49:58.059 --> 00:50:00.559 by the saints, by the church fathers and mothers, 00:50:00.699 --> 00:50:03.500 to be filled with the Spirit, to be able to continue 00:50:03.500 --> 00:50:06.079 to pursue the life of virtue together with our 00:50:06.079 --> 00:50:07.980 various vocations, following our fathers, the 00:50:07.980 --> 00:50:11.039 priests, and the bishop, of course, and being 00:50:11.039 --> 00:50:13.880 able to add what God has given to us to add to 00:50:13.880 --> 00:50:18.090 the common work. Wow, that's beautiful. My prayer 00:50:18.090 --> 00:50:22.989 is that we all do that. Thank you all for tuning 00:50:22.989 --> 00:50:25.449 in and being part of this conversation. And I 00:50:25.449 --> 00:50:27.449 want to thank Peter very much for your time. 00:50:27.469 --> 00:50:30.170 Thank you for hanging out with me for so long. 00:50:30.289 --> 00:50:35.030 My pleasure. Until next time. I hope you enjoyed 00:50:35.030 --> 00:50:37.869 listening to this episode. For questions, comments, 00:50:38.030 --> 00:50:40.250 feedback, or if you'd like to make a suggestion 00:50:40.250 --> 00:50:42.650 on a topic for a future episode, please feel 00:50:42.650 --> 00:50:44.909 free to reach out to the email in the bio. And 00:50:44.909 --> 00:50:46.590 don't forget to subscribe to get a notification 00:50:47.210 --> 00:50:49.889 when new episodes drop. God bless you and have 00:50:49.889 --> 00:50:50.329 a great day.