Hello everyone, this is Father Paul, and I hope
you're having a good day. You're listening to
Cops in Conversation. To obtain a mindset, to
enter into a mystery, is so much different than
to say, well, where does it say what repentance
looks like? You know, apparently it looks like
crossing the Red Sea, but you could never use
that as just a here's the fact kind of argument,
right? You'd have to have all of this context
go, wow, that's the image. And that's where I
think reading the Church Fathers becomes an exercise
in changing who you are rather than learning
a few facts. And when people come to that, I
think people have their own motivation to be
like, yeah, this stuff is real. I want to keep
with it. And I think that's the beauty of doing
it. Absolutely. And speaking of lenses, I mean,
it's very rare today that we see people take
a step back and think about the lens through
which we... observe the world interact with the
world and that happens sometimes too when we
read the fathers that yes we use the same lens
that we're largely unaware of let's say you know
we've been formed by this consumerist lens so
we approach the fathers as you know modern consumers
and we're you know looking for a specific opinion
something that supports what we're trying to
say the way we live our lives rather than looking
to the fathers and reading with the fathers and
seeing what the fathers are are saying and experiencing
and inviting us to experience right we're just
looking to the fathers to kind of support what
we've already decided that we're gonna do or
how we're gonna live whereas being patient readers
allows us to just take a breath take a moment
and examine like how is it that i'm living my
life today how is it that they lived their lives
and do we have any common grounds are there any
issues that they're trying to warn me about and
are there any um kind of challenges that they've
already addressed that I'm experiencing today
and how is their experience helpful in helping
me navigate these challenges that I'm facing
today. For me today, I look at all the things
that are available to me and I say, you know
what, why not? If I have access to all of these
wonderful things, why not just... partake of
all the good stuff and just consume as much as
possible and i can consume information i can
consume products i can consume things and then
when i with the same mindset turn to the fathers
and say you know what i'm just i have access
to all of this uh stuff and i'm just gonna consume
as much of it as i can and just by consuming
it this is somehow going to change my life this
is somehow going to alter my the way i experience
church and my attendance in church where as i
see in the fathers they're trying to warn me
i guess as i say like don't turn this into kind
of this whole thing about who you are and affirming
who you are and where you're coming from this
is something else this is something that's transformative
you come to christ he's going to transform you
into what you were created to be you're going
to become a person by coming to christ not you
are coming to christ for him to pat you on the
shoulder on the back and say good job you know
uh you're doing great you're perfect you don't
need to change even like you know this kind of
self -affirming uh approach but with the fathers
it's different like with the fathers they they
challenge things they they really not just challenge
quote -unquote facts but they challenge um visions
and view of things and how we view things and
how we approach things and this is what's very
rare today because it's very dangerous for someone
uh to really present an honest opinion online
it's almost like they only present what's safe
and what's agreed upon why you know the online
mob and to be real to be uh honest is something
that's very rare otherwise they lose you know
followers they lose influence they lose you know
or they get canceled or they get canceled but
with the fathers i'm like They have their eye
on the prize. The prize is Christ and nothing
else to them matters. So they're giving us this
truthful vision of life, how it is, how it ought
to be, how we as Christians walking in their
footsteps, in their tradition, along with them,
ought to see Christ, ought to see our lives in
this world, our time in this world. So you've
really said something that I want to piggyback
off of. Anybody who knows me know I have a few
recycled things I like to say and that's it because
I find them so interesting. But there's this
sense, there's something I talk about with people
that I think could best be called iconic vision
or viewing things as icons in a sense. What we
have... is we think we look at the world objectively
because it is what it is. And that's a concept
that's given to us by materialist, rationalist
thought, right? The world is what you can measure
and break it down to its various million, billion
pieces. And what the Church Fathers do that's
so interesting is to go, look, what you're viewing
the world through is actually the impassioned
thoughts that you have, pathos being those sinful
thoughts that come to us from outside, if you
will. your world is shaped by something that
you don't even know you're wearing, right? You
don't even know you have those glasses on. And
so when I want to make this example for people,
I'll say like, look, the beauty of being Orthodox
is you have no farther to look than icons. I
cite the example of the fact that most of the
earliest depictions, as Sotak knows, of the crucifixion
have the Lord completely alive. So particularly
we still have some great depictions in Ravenna
where you have the Lord Jesus Christ on the cross.
He's not slouched. He's not bloodied. His eyes
are wide open. You know, there's still actually
like real color to his flesh. He's not paled
or anything. And he's looking out at the individual
viewing the icon or sometimes at those at the
foot of the cross. And it's so funny because
art historians and other scholars have taken
that as a sign that Christians were, quote unquote,
offended by the cross. And so they didn't want
to depict Jesus being bloodied. I think that's
so funny because St. Paul already from the very
beginning has talked about the fact that he's
not offended whatsoever, but he glories in the
cross of Christ. And so it would be a real step
back if only, you know, 50 years later, people
are going, oh, let's not depict him, you know,
crucified. But what you actually have, is a vision
of reality that we can't see physically. And
I think that's something that people really struggle
with. The icons, and the Church Fathers teach
us to do the same, but the icons, to go with
this example, show us reality as it is, not as
we see it. And as we see it, reality is not always
as it seems. And we know this from our experience.
We know that people can look on the exact same
thing and interpret it in two completely different
ways. If you're a devout, christian you look
at the poor man as christ if you're a billionaire
techie you may you may look at him as somebody
who needs help but you may also just look at
him as a guy who couldn't make in the world he
wasn't cut out for it and that's what the greco
-roman pagans did right they they thought that
that was just the work of fate and the poor guy
sucks to suck and you know he's poor that's why
there was no point really for the hospital for
exactly until the fourth century so but what
the icons do is is i and i tell people this i'm
like look If you were at the foot of the cross
and you're looking at Jesus, you're looking at
a dead guy, you know, for all intents and purposes.
May God forgive me for speaking like this. But
if you're really physically there, you know,
if you're going to take a snapshot, it's a dead
guy. if you can see with the eyes of faith, if
you can see reality as it actually is, you actually
have the icon, which is the Lord of glory who
is fully alive, enters into death, that he might
destroy death by death, as we've been singing
these 50 days and will continue to. And so the
icon of Christ crucified fully alive is actually
showing you reality. The snapshot... If you took
a Polaroid in the year 33 AD, whatever date it's
debated to be, if you took a snapshot of Jesus
crucified, you're not seeing that. You're just
seeing a quote -unquote dead guy. Where the eyes
of faith, the eyes of virtue, allow us to see
reality as it actually is, not just as it appears
physically. And so there's this distinction that...
St. Gregory of Nyssa makes in the life of Moses
where he goes why does Moses come and meet God
at the top of the mountain and he goes you know
what do I tell them you are who do I tell them
what's your name and what not and the Lord says
to him God says to him out of the burning bush
literally well I am that I am is most of our
translations but if you will he literally tells
him I is right in the present tense existing
is what I am and it's like You know, it's like,
well, that's the most disappointing answer. What
do you mean? This guy just found a burning bush
and now it's just Ayes? But in reality, Gregor
of Nyssa goes, look, true reality is things that
exist as they are, not... as they appear by deception.
And God, therefore, is the only thing that truly
exists and gives life to all things that are.
And then he takes that to the spiritual life
and he goes, the problem in the spiritual life,
and he says this in his homilies on the Beatitudes,
he goes, is not that we need to be convinced
to pursue good. The problem in the spiritual
life is that we need to stop being deceived as
to that which is really good by nature. And so
that's iconic vision, where you're like, this
looks like it's going to satisfy me. It's not,
though, because I can now see with the eyes of
virtue. I can take off the passionate lens that
I have. You were talking about consumerism, and
there's the writings of a lesser -known desert
ascetic, but who becomes the source of the whole
desert tradition, is Evagris of Pontus. And he
dies in 399. He's responsible for a list of eight
generic or passionate thoughts that are the basis
or the root. of all of the other thoughts that
we struggle with. It is the basis for where the
Catholic Church gets the seven deadly sins, but
he didn't mean it that way in any way, and that
comes through. And the list is slightly different
in the West. It is, exactly, right? Because the
seven, he has eight. They combine two, and then
they add one. So they combine sadness and acedia,
and they also combine, rather, pride and vainglory.
Sadness and acedia just becomes sloth, what the
West calls sloth. Pride and vainglory just becomes
pride, and then they add envy. And so minus two,
add one, you get seven. But in any case, in his
system, he starts with gluttony. He goes, look,
the very first of the passion thoughts is gluttony.
And we think we know what gluttony is today,
right? We think, okay, cool, that's Mandarin
before Lent. You know, that's gluttony. And what
I find fascinating about Evagrius is he's like,
no, no, no, no. Gluttony is an attitude towards
all of reality. It's not just what you put in
your mouth, although that's the basic root. Because
gluttony is an attitude of saying, I need to
consume what's in front of me. In fact, the whole
world is made for me to consume. It's made for
my entertainment. The world is a plaything that
should be subject to my every whim. And then
he says that leads to lust, because naturally
lust is the belief then that the human being
made in the image and likeness of God is also
made for my consumption. And so what he says
is when we... tear away these veils as the veil
from Moses' face was taken away in Christ, if
you will, as St. Paul says. If you tear away
all these veils, all these different lenses,
all these different colorings or whatever we
have to our vision, you can start to see reality
as it is and not as the things that we've become
subject to through our own slavery, our own wishes.
And I think that's something where reading the
Church Fathers allows you to go, I didn't even
realize I was struggling with this sin. And that's
why I was so enslaved to this or to that bad
relationship or to that desire for a car of a
particular make or whatever. You know, it's not
that other people are bad. It's not that cars
are bad. It's not that music is bad. It's not
that any of these things in and of themselves
is bad. It's just that I've become enslaved to
them and put them above Christ. And now I've
let them become an idol in my life. And so reading
with the church fathers, I think allows us to
go. I didn't even know that I was looking at
the world this way. And that's why I think, and
I keep citing the life of Moses, but it's just
because it's on your desk here. But I think reading
with the church fathers, and there are a number
of works that do this, allow you to go, wow.
I didn't even pay attention to that in my life.
There's another book. It's titled today by Popular
Patristic Series. It's on social justice. It's
a series of homilies by St. Basil the Great.
He never gave a homily called On Social Justice,
but that's what the compiler and translator called
it. And he says something, again, very stark.
He goes, look, if you look in your closet and
you see that you have two coats, just understand
that you stole one of them from the poor. And
none of us would naturally look at our closets
and think that. We'd think, why do I only have
two coats? But it's when you read something like
that that you have to step back and be like,
okay, whoa, whoa, whoa. What what's so different
about me and the way I live that I'm suddenly,
you know, I'm in such a different worldview I'm
in such a different place than them that I view
the poor or my own possessions or whatever So
differently and then later in the same collection
will be like if you take the rich man The real
trouble with him isn't that he's rich. It's that
if you take away his riches, it would be better
if you've taken away his arm for him, because
the agony he suffers at the removal of his wealth
is unbearable to him. He goes, that's an indication
to you of what your problem is. And that's something
we could all read and go, okay, my relationship
with these things is the issue, my attachment,
my slavery, my willingness to let them control
me. That's really where the problem is. And that,
again, is something that you get from reading
somebody who writes in a completely different
time, thinks in a completely different way than
us. But also it was clearly a man dedicated to
social causes. Like he opened the world's first
hospital, you know? Right, right. And someone
like that in his position and with access to
all of these resources and then telling us moderns
today that, you know, it's better if you take
someone's arm than if you take, you know, the
content of his bank account. You know, he's not
wrong. Like a lot of people would rather... And
in fact, it does happen more often than not.
Unfortunately, people take their lives when they
lose large sums of money because they say life
is unbearable. If I do not have these resources,
I cannot live. If I don't have this standard
of living, life is not worth living. What's the
point? What's the point? And he's speaking to
that. They're all speaking to that. They're saying
that this is a problem with the way we view life.
This is a problem with the way we approach life.
And the problem is also, I think, if we read
from within our own culture, whatever it is we're
reading is tainted by the same lens that's blinding
us. And it's only from reading from outside of...
our culture our time bubble then we begin to
see like here's someone looking at our life today
from the outside and he's helping us see how
ridiculous it all is St. John Chrysostom Again,
it's a bunch of homilies that they call on marriage
and family life. I love that book. So one of
the sermons is on marriage, and he writes about
the wedding reception. Yes, that's the best.
Whenever I want to show people, I'll be like,
you know the church fathers knew what we would
be like? And they'll be like, what do you mean?
He knew that there would be an open bar. He knew
all the dancing and the music and the songs.
He knew. And then he writes it in such vivid
language, like you're basically inviting the
devil. You invite Christ to the altar and say
like, you know, I want to start my marriage at
the altar, sacramentally. And then a day later
at the reception, I invite the devil and his
pomp and his music and all this stuff. And then
I begin to wonder. you know why are things going
wrong in my marriage well you know if i started
off on the wrong foot and and he tells us like
you know you can say to me that it's tradition
just this is how people are doing things everybody
does it he says the exact same thing we say to
each other today exactly he's saying it and he's
saying do you know how ridiculous you sound like
if there's good tradition keep it but if there's
bad tradition break it and by all means if there's
something that's good that's not traditional
start it like how ridiculous how crazy would
it be if you have a reception and invite poor
people yeah how how insane would that be you
know this is not traditional but hey you know
it will be attributed to you as you are the person
who started that tradition and it takes someone
like that with such you know a crisp presentation
of our reality to kind of uh make us take a double
take almost something like when like why am i
doing what i'm doing like is it really the right
approach the right way of doing things the right
thing to do here am i just doing it just because
everybody else is doing it yeah i never thought
of it this way and it takes someone like that
who was able to phrase it like that for me to
start thinking that way and that's really the
the you know i'm not going to say the but one
of The most important aspects of reading the
Fathers, living with the Fathers. To tack on
to that, you and I know that St. John Chrysostom
suffered for doing that. I think that's the beautiful
thing about reading real people. Sometimes our
idea of the saint, as they said or did things,
and then it was like... Yeah, then they went
to heaven and died and whatever and everything
was good. And instead you have St. John Chrysostom
who got into arguments with the empress, particularly
after she put up a statue of herself in front
of the church, right? And he goes, this is wrong.
What you're doing is wrong because he wasn't
ashamed to speak the truth. And he eventually
gets exiled and he dies in exile, right? And
you're like... saint john chrysostom bishop of
constantinople big deal right the the city of
cities in the ancient world and um and he suffers
and he's exiled and his life sucks as a result
of speaking the truth and we have his letters
to olympia the deaconess um that you can still
read today from that journey right that's where
that classic phrase glory to god for all things
comes from while he's in chains in in exile and
um And you just have this fact that he's like,
it doesn't matter. I knew when I said those things
that were quote -unquote inflammatory that I
was going to suffer for it. There's a real cost
to it. This is real preaching, not empty preaching,
you know, from the safety of, you know, distance.
And I'm just saying stuff and it's really not
going to cost me anything. No, this is going
to cost me everything. And I'm still willing
to say it. And we may think, well, he's the patriarch
of Constantinople. Like, I mean, that guy can
say whatever he wants. It's like, no, even he
wasn't safe. And he was actually less safe because
he was a member, an important member of clergy.
And so the impetus for the rest of us as Christians
is to be like. Let's speak the truth in love
and let's speak reality because that's how the
world will be saved. If you and I are going to
be like, okay, well, I'm just not the person
to do it. And it is a God -given vocation. And
some of us are called to witness in a particular
way at particular times. But if we all assume
it's somebody else, it's never going to happen.
And Chrysostom shows us that even though the
church remembers him as John of golden mouth,
which is just what Chrysostom means, He was going
to suffer for that witness. Even though later
memory would go, wow, everything came out of
his mouth is golden. And it's like, yeah, he
was persecuted for it. At the time, it wasn't
so golden. Yeah, right. Some people took very
real offense with it, the empress. There's another
text from Gregory the Theologian in some of his
homilies on the love of the poor. And you people
decorate your houses with stones that preserve
temperature. Stones that preserve the warmth
in winter and the cold in summer and comfort.
comfortable mattresses and and linens from the
far east where they were getting silk and things
like that and you read it you're like man yeah
that's how people build houses today you know
and and he was like it is what it is truth is
truth And I think that's something that when
you read real living people, St. Gregory the
Theologian is a funny example, too, because he
didn't want to be a bishop. You remember, right,
that he ran away when he was ordained a priest.
And then he had to come back and go, okay, sorry,
guys, whatever. My bad. I'm here again. And then
when he's made the bishop of Constantinople,
he goes to a city that at the time was actually
full of heresy. He wasn't even allowed to go
to the patriarchy, if you will. And he had to
go preach in a tiny little church. And he says,
this sucks. wanted any of this. And he's so real.
And that makes his witness to truth all the more
real. I think for a lot of people, one of the
favorite weeks for some in our patristics meeting
is when we do an intro to a church father, some
of whom we know more facts than others. So sometimes
we can introduce more detail. But like Gregor
the Theologian has some autobiographical poetry
that he's written where he documents the fact
that he didn't want to believe. He didn't want
to come to faith. And then he nearly got crashed
on a boat heading to go to education. Essentially,
he was going off to uni, if you will. and he
nearly dies, and he goes, look, if you allow
me to survive this, my life is yours. I hope
he survives, and now he's stuck. Now he has to
keep his word. Right, and then after that, he's
like, he didn't want the priesthood, and they
made him a priest, and his father did, actually,
who was also Gregory, which makes church history
a lot of fun, because everybody's, Basil has
a Basil, Gregory has a Gregory, and so on, and
then he doesn't want to be a bishop, and every
single time, God's like, look, this is not your
will, it's mine, and he goes, fine, this sucks,
and I hate it, it but i'm gonna do it um and
when when when we do those weeks together where
we introduce a church father a lot of people
are like that was really cool i didn't know gregory
was such a baby about you know being ordained
a bishop and it's like yeah he hated it he hated
every minute of it um he even left the council
of constantinople that happened in 381 because
he didn't want anything to do with it and so
on so it's one of those really funny kind of
situations where you have the opportunity to
read these real people be actually very real
and to struggle, but still to pursue the life
of virtue. We could cite other examples, but
I don't want to just keep rambling here. That's
actually very interesting because these are not...
uh ideal figures that are you know uh perfectly
packaged story these are real lives people who
put their lives where their mouth was and they
and they spoke the truth and it cost them and
it takes us back to the very disciples themselves
who you know were preaching the crucified lord
and the risen lord and uh it wasn't something
that was you know without cost. It cost them
their very lives. And this was the witness. This
is the witness that they left us. And only from
within can their witness be seen as witness.
From without, it's weakness. And St. Paul said
it. To the world, for the Greeks, the cross is
foolishness. But to us, it's the very power of
God. And you mentioned a story before. There's
a similar story. From Father John Bear wrote
a commentary, sort of commentary on the Gospel
of John. And in it, he talks about the story
of Blandina. Yes, I love that story. And that
story is like it encompasses all of like this
young slave girl who is being martyred and basically
is hanging in the middle of the arena. And, you
know, all the people sitting around like all
those billionaires and saying, oh, you know,
poor girl. Or perhaps they're thinking, oh, it's
her fate. There's nothing really that could be
done for her. Like it's her fate to be, you know,
food for the beast, for our entertainment. But
as St. Irenaeus relates to us, he tells us like.
The people who were hanging on the floor of the
arena with her to be martyred, they saw something
else. Something that no one else saw. They saw
Christ. Yeah. And I think one of the best parts
about the letter of Irenaeus about her is he
also shares that although she's being beaten
down, you know, by the whatever you call them,
the guys that are doing the torture before she
gets eaten. He narrates that they were beaten.
with sweat and physical exhaustion as they were
beating her down. And that all those in the arena
who could were seeing Christ suffering for their
sake in the person of the weakest of the weak.
Blandina is a slave girl. Not only is she a woman,
which of course are not even second -rate citizens
in the ancient Greco -Roman world. Contrary to
most people's thought, it's Christianity that
transforms the position of women. but she's a
woman and she's a slave girl. She's good for
service or prostitution at best, you know, in
that context. And it's her, the weakest of the
weak, who can really show us who Christ is and
that he comes and descends to that place to raise
us up out of it. And those around her, not the
pagans, are able to see reality as it is. It's
like the anecdote about Polycarp, Saint Polycarp
of Smyrna. He's being martyred. And the emperor
of the time goes, repent, man, like just change
and deny Christ and we'll leave you alone. Because
he was old at the time, right? Saint Polycarp
was aged. And he looks at him and he goes, you
know, 86 years I've served him and he's done
me no evil. why would I deny him now? You may
leave him now after all these years. Exactly.
And then the emperor looks at him and goes, okay,
well, at least curse the infidel and the atheist,
which is what they called the Christians, right?
So he points to the pagans of the audience and
he's, I love St. John, St. Chrysostom, St. Polycarp,
sorry, because he's, He's got cheek. He points
to the pagans and goes, cursed be the infidelity.
And it's like that example is left to us and
people still read it. And they're like, look
at the man of faith and bravery. And everybody
around him in the Colosseum is like, that guy's
an idiot. Look, he was just offered freedom.
Why didn't he pursue it? And then it's only with
the eyes of faith. It's only in reading the church
fathers and discipling our minds and our wills
that we can see and be like, he's the one that's
really free. right the rest of us are enslaved
to something a fear that somebody's going to
come and take something from me a fear that this
relationship is going to end and i won't find
anyone a fear that this pleasure that i'm attached
to might get removed or found out or or i might
be embarrassed by it it's the rest of us who
are slaves it's polycarp standing in the arena
without fear it goes okay cool i've been with
him my whole life i know nothing's changing today
You can't scare the person who believes in Christ.
And that's what, at the very start of the conversation,
I said, St. Athanasius, you know, he says this
thing about proving the resurrection. And I was
expecting a philosophical proof. And he goes,
the real proof of the resurrection is that people
who were aforetime, previously, afraid. now go
to their death willingly. Even happily, they
profess their faith in Christ. Not because they're
sadists, masochists, or whatever. It's because
these people know that Christ is the reality
of all things. And what they're doing is pursuing
truth. And so I've always taken that text as
a maxim in reverse to be like, so if I believe
the resurrection to be true, if I think Christ
is truly risen, then I shouldn't be bound by
fear or by slavery. Because that's actually the
proof, apparently. that the resurrection is true,
is that the Christians are free of any of these
chains. And it's like when you take that in reverse,
you're like, that just left the realm of theology
and became super, what we would call today, a
quote -unquote practical. You know, suddenly
that's real. And all the church fathers and mothers,
when you're reading even the most philosophical
of texts, it's going to come back to something
that is real, that says like, look, if you say
this, you're saying something dramatically different
about what it is to believe in Christ, who he
is, and how we live the life in him. That's something
where I think when we teach church councils in
Sunday school, a lot of people leave and they're
like, there's a good guy, there's a bad guy,
there's a date, there's an emperor, there's a
place. Done. And what I try to impress on people
is I'm like, no, guys. The what, where, when,
just kind of a laundry list of facts. I'll be
like, guys, look, you didn't get... 300 bishops
from all across the known world some of whom
died on the way you know to get together in one
place to be like guys we're all agreed right
it's all cool consubstantial okay awesome let's
go home you know it's because they thought this
stuff mattered because they were like the christ
you believe in dramatically changes the rest
of your life and everything about it you know
including how you're going to act tomorrow, including
the Eucharist, including what you're going to
sing, so on and so forth. And I think it's that
depth of reality that we're trying to communicate
to people. We're talking like, hey, read the
Church Fathers. This stuff is important because
we want to see where all of that fits in this
grand schema that is the life of the Church,
of which the Church Fathers are beautiful witnesses,
but they're not the whole life of the Church,
right? I'll often cite to people just one stanza
from Tasbeha, and I'll be like... Just think
of this one stanza. You and I just read pages
of the Church Fathers. And this one stanza here
has in this beautiful little short form summary
all of these thoughts in it. If you can get that
context. You know, and so there'll be some people
who go to Tasbeha and got that. And then there'll
be a bunch of people who are like, now my mind
is opened. Now I really understand that that
has so much depth. Right. You know, there is
a saying today. The hell you're willing to die
on. Yes. And it's not that people aren't willing
to die for what they believe. It's that what
they're willing to die for is not worth dying
for. And we mentioned already, you know, finances
and money. A lot of people today tie the concept
of freedom to money. Financial freedom. That's
what freedom means. to a lot of people. Yeah.
And then we meet with people, we encounter people
who had, you know, much more money than we're
ever going to see. And they tell us like these
church fathers, we have stories of saints who
left enormous amounts of resources. And these
fathers, they tell us, they explain why to us.
It's not just a matter of, you know, having the
right person in charge of the money. results
in good outcome is that it changes you. If you,
let's say you make $10 a month and you give to
the poor $1, you think if I make a hundred or
if I make a thousand, I would be giving more.
But the irony is, and what they teach us is that
you actually can end up giving less. So it changes
you and you wouldn't. you know instinctively
know that you know that something needs to be
looked at but what exactly and then when we when
we read the fathers when we experience what they're
experiencing and begin to kind of like you like
you said earlier be patient readers with them
we begin to see like why that change happens
and how that change happens. And in fact, you
know, kind of like a veil that's been being put
over our eyes just so we can think that the more
the better when it comes to finances, when it
comes to resources, right? When it comes to our
ability to consume, the more, you know, the better.
and they go in a completely different direction
and that's why it's so important and it's not
just you know important on a philosophical level
but very much practical it's not something that
you can say to yourself because some people i
i do encounter have convinced them i've written
off church father and saying like this is all
philosophical stuff it doesn't really impact
me practically speaking like my day -to -day
living my faith All I need is Christ and I believe
in Christ and my relationship is with Christ.
The rest of it is just secondary to that. It
doesn't, you know, impact that. Whereas these
were people who were. approached him not as a
sort of puzzle to be solved, but a mystery to
be experienced, right? To be encountered. They
knew that it's not just about getting the right
bits and pieces of information oriented in the
right way. And then we figure out what the Trinity
is. And we just know it and we write it off and
move on with our lives. This is an experience,
a mystery that you have to live with kind of
the discomfort of not knowing. And they tell
us what that's like. And they invite us. to share
in that mystery, to share in that experience.
And you have like St. John Chrysostom, one of
his famous sayings, he goes, look, any God you
can understand or comprehend is no God at all.
Yeah. You know, and it's like, wow. His point
is just to be like, you're not out here doing
an intellectual pursuit, trying to gain some
sort of intellectual knowledge and say, ah, there's
the Trinity. We had that. We had Gnosticism in
the first and second century, where Gnosticism
was an early body -denying heresy, if you will.
They denied the goodness of the material reality.
And they even really denied the incarnation,
therefore. But they also thought that one of
the ways to real salvation was secret knowledge.
That's where gnosis comes from, which is just
the Greek word for knowledge. And so the church
already experienced this sense of a faith that
is just a heady material where you kind of know
the right facts and then you're admitted to the
pearly gates. You know, Peter has the pop quiz
at the pearly gates, if you will, as the pop
image likes to go. And the church fathers and
mothers were like, no, we already experienced
that idea. We've already had this problem. And
we've given many answers as to why this isn't
the totality of the life in Christ. To cite another
example, you were talking about our attachment
to money. And what's really funny is when you
read somebody like St. John Cassian, who in the
4th century goes to the desert. He's from the
West. He goes to the desert of Egypt to be like,
we want to know what real monasticism looks like.
Because, of course, it started in Egypt, and
that's not an Egypt pride thing. It's just, you
know, we had the Desert Fathers. It is what it
is. And we had a desert. yeah well a lot of it
a lot of desert you know and and he goes out
there and he interviews different church fathers
right so we have the the interview with abba
moses is the beginning and and many scholars
take that to be our moses the strong right And
in his institutes, which is part one of the work,
he's got institutes, which is sort of how the
monks live. And part two is the conferences where
he's like, yo, what's what salvation look like?
How does that work? You know, they go sit down
with various fathers and they'll be like, so
how do I achieve purity of my eye? You know,
because I've tried and it's not working. And
in the institutes, they'll be like, what about
the monk that says, I don't need to work because
work isn't important. I just have to pursue God
and live a life of simple faith and all this
stuff. And he goes, no. In the Egyptian monasteries,
they were very clear. Every monk had to do some
sort of work to be able to make ends meet. And
one of the rules apparently at the time was the
monk had to have a little bit extra. So he could
donate to charity. And then in the text, they
go into the access. He goes, look, some monks
are now believing that they should actually dedicate
less time to prayer and more time to doing more
work so they can make more money because then
they'll give more to charity. And it's like all
of these weird ways that we formulated excuses
for how we want to live our lives, they've already
had, even in the monastery in the fourth century.
And so it's one of those things where you read
and you're like, okay, as you said, Abuna. There
is really nothing new under the sun. We encountered
this idea. And I think the beautiful thing about
inhabiting or living in a tradition, as opposed
to, say, post -Reformation, where the individual
becomes the rule of the law, right? Here we mean
the Protestant Reformation, where the hierarchy
or the hierarchical status of the Catholic Church
is called into question, and the impetus is put
back to the individual believer as Martin Luther
leaves the Catholic Church. Even Western secular
scholars want to be like, look, maybe individualism
took its rise from around that time or something
like that. Because now suddenly you become the
measure. We're in the early church or we're in
an Orthodox church. You're like, you're not the
measure. Somebody else has asked that question.
And it's not because they were smarter than you
that they answered it. It's because they had
the answer that was given by the tradition, which
is the living faith of the church. is interesting.
It feels slavish to people today, right? Because
freedom has become the measure of reality. But
in fact, what the Church Fathers tell us is like,
this is liberty. You're not out here, you know,
struggling with a disease of your eyes in terms
of lust, let's say, and going, I can't figure
it out. What am I going to do? You know, is there
a good... whatever 30 -step program some modernists
come up with, they're like, no, we've been at
this now for 2 ,000 years, and we have solutions
for you. We have ways of freeing you. And I think
that's the beauty of Orthodox tradition in the
end, right? We have all these beautiful theological
writings and treatises and whatnot, and they
are very rich and deep and amazing. But I think
people often think that they stop there. where
it's like, no, the bleed down, if you will, from
those treatises is the everyday individual going,
I just don't know how to stop swearing. I can't
stop envying people that do well. And my vainglory
suffers when I hear something good said about
somebody else, and I just don't know how to cure
myself of this disease. And the church fathers
are like, yeah, we know. We've been doing this
for 2 ,000 years. Here are some solutions. Here's
a way of being freed. And I think... when people
really encounter that they suddenly start to
go like this is great i can finally be free of
my chains and i think that's the beauty of the
faith right as christ says that he has come that
we might we might be free that we might have
life right and He means that. An analogy, Abuna
Athanasios in Kitchener, he likes to use this.
He likes to go, you know, the church fathers
and mothers and the desert, that's like the university
ground, as universities used to be anyway, where
people went out and they did experiments and
they tried things and they went, you know, that
doesn't work. We did that one, that was really
bad. We did this, though, and it worked really
well. So that, if you will, out of that tradition,
out of that lived experience, we can go, okay,
there's a path. And some other people have trodden
the path and gotten so far and fallen and gotten
so much farther and fallen and some other people
have gotten the whole way. And we have their
example to be like, here's a way to track forward.
Here's a way to be freed. Here's a way to be
liberated. Here's a way to not let sin rule my
life. And it's like, well, we would be done if
we knew there was a way to real freedom, to real
true liberty in Christ, to be fully alive. And
we said, That seems inconvenient. I'm going to
leave all of that and figure out my own way.
I'll joke with people. We're a community of a
million pharmacists and other professions too,
of course. Not to hate on pharmacists, but organic
chemistry is one of the hardest things I ever
studied in my life. And I'll have people where
I'm like, physical chemistry is even harder.
Organic chemistry is one of the most difficult
subjects that ever existed. For the engineers
out there, sorry, Bona. You know, I'm like, physics
is the hardest thing I ever tried to do. And
I was terrible at it. And then I'll have people
that come from these backgrounds like, no, no,
no, I can't read. And I'm like, are you joking?
It took me hours to learn what a vector is. And
you're out here doing, you know, crazy, complicated
calculus. And you're telling me that you can't
read the life of Antony? No, man, come on. If
you knew what that holds, if you knew the treasure,
the pearl of great price, you'd be looking for
it. Absolutely. And I'm very glad that we had
this conversation because it's often been presented
as the Church Fathers is this kind of black box.
We really don't know how to access it, how it
works. work somehow as long as there's one person
in the church who knows what it is that's sufficient
and we don't all need to to know or to read or
to um get acquainted start getting familiar with
the fathers because it's just at the end of the
day you know it's really not that relevant or
accessible and it may be uh also a little bit
uh outdated and uh now we know so much more we're
so much more enlightened and and all of that
stuff and and the funny thing is this very thought
of now we know better yeah is uh is directly
confronted by the father's like now we know better
like you know you have christ who is um is alive
on the altar and you come to him and you say
like now we know better now we have all of these
different ways of living or different ways of
salvation or different you know path to to eternity
and no this isn't it this is the path this is
the way this is the way the truth and the life
right so i wanted to emphasize that This isn't
something that's reserved for a special group
in the church, either the professional, the ordained,
either priest or servant or deacon. Or the PhD.
Or the PhD, someone who's... you know interested
in this kind of stuff so much so that they go
and get a degree and study this is for everyone
and it's not just for everyone this is what we
do in the church it's not something separate
from what we do this is what we do and here we
have someone who's you know in his own words
Boringly average. Boringly average. Yes. In his
own words, boringly average and found, you know,
so much solace and so much depth and wealth in
the fathers and went so far as to take that to
his own community, to his own church, to have
a meeting, to have a way of bringing more people
in conversation with the fathers. And all I want
to say is this is... very doable why haven't
we thought of it before why haven't we done it
before and i pray my prayer is that every church
does something like this you know this is not
uh something that's copyright so you can all
go ahead and copy and do exactly the same thing
because it's wonderful it brings people into
such wonderful conversation important conversations
about real things things that really matter and
having conversations in a way that uh allows
us to go uh behind or beyond any sort of modern
veil that we have over our eyes and to experience
things and to see things for what they really
are so with that i want to just give peter uh
opportunity for any final words any encouragement
leave us with um i think i i think really like
what you said abuna is is very true i um i happened
on the church fathers as an accident of god's
grace and I didn't think at any point when I
was reading them that I was going to talk to
other people about them. I remember having a
very strong feeling at certain points. I'd read
things. I'd be like, I can't believe other people
don't know this. And it wasn't because I thought
they were stupid. I just thought it was so cool.
This is so rich. I can't believe nobody else
has taught other people this or said this. And
I didn't read so that I could educate other people.
But immediately what came to my mind was, wow,
really other people need to hear this. And by
God's grace, through certain avenues, an opportunity
came where it was like, okay, maybe there's room
for a meeting. And it didn't work at first. And
I'd show up to this meeting and it would just
be me. And I'd sit alone for 45 minutes or an
hour and go, okay, I'll go home. Or one or two
people would show up and I'd go, okay, let's
chat. Do you want to read the book together?
And that kind of thing. And for whatever reason,
God in his own time allowed it to be such that
more people were interested. And then people
have come in where I'm like, this is amazing.
I get to learn so much, A, from preparing the
content, but B, from listening to other people
reflect on the meaning of this text in their
lives and how the person in the group who's an
architect and who thinks about beauty and planning
and layout can read a text and be like, look.
This spoke to me in my career in the way that
I'm to live. It really reminds me of something
C .S. Lewis said. He makes the point in his time,
he goes, look, we have more than enough catechists
and people talking religion out there. We have
enough theological books. And of course, at his
time, there were more than there are now. But,
you know, in any case, I think his point is true.
He goes, what we really need is more people who
are like geologists. who are Christians and devout,
and are going to let that penetrate everything
that they write, who are going to live true,
authentic Christian lives, inspired maybe by
the church fathers, he didn't say that part,
but enlightened by their writings, that is going
to penetrate every aspect of society. Because
we have people out there who can write books
and this kind of stuff, maybe. But even though...
There are common folk, if you will, lay folk
like me, who don't have a degree or, you know,
I'm not a member of clergy and things like this,
where it's like, if we can live out our vocation
in Christ properly, inspired perhaps by the writings
of these church fathers and mothers, that's where
society will change. God bless our priests, you,
Abuna, all the other priests in our diocese.
You guys work laboriously and without end. But
there's only so much that the priests can do
if the rest of the body are going to go, okay,
let's leave it to those guys. You know, good
work, Abuna. And it's like, well, the rest of
us are called to work with you, to follow your
lead, to work wherever God has called us to say,
like, what else can I add? Following the lead
of the father in the church or in the diocese
and say, like, where's my two cents? it reminds
me of a text everybody knows i i i love this
text from the homilies of macarius i believe
it's homily too or he'll be like look some people
out there read some people pray and some people
work and that was in his monastery right and
he goes the one reading shouldn't look at the
one working and be like, that guy's an idiot.
He doesn't know anything. If only he read more.
But the guy working shouldn't look at the guy
praying and be like, wait, why is that guy not
working and helping me out? And better yet, he
even says of the guy praying, he shouldn't look
to the other two and say, you know, the... the
half wits over there who are not really doing
the real spiritual stuff they're only working
or praying he says the guy who's praying should
look to the one studying and say whatever he
reads will accrue to my benefit because what
he reads will be added to me through my learning
from him and the one who works should look at
the one praying and say That guy prays for me
so that the work may be blessed, and so on. And
he has this idea of a whole body coming together
and saying, like, let's actually work together.
Let's actually be the body of Christ, be inspired
by the saints, by the church fathers and mothers,
to be filled with the Spirit, to be able to continue
to pursue the life of virtue together with our
various vocations, following our fathers, the
priests, and the bishop, of course, and being
able to add what God has given to us to add to
the common work. Wow, that's beautiful. My prayer
is that we all do that. Thank you all for tuning
in and being part of this conversation. And I
want to thank Peter very much for your time.
Thank you for hanging out with me for so long.
My pleasure. Until next time. I hope you enjoyed
listening to this episode. For questions, comments,
feedback, or if you'd like to make a suggestion
on a topic for a future episode, please feel
free to reach out to the email in the bio. And
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a great day.