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I think the biggest problem is that we introduce things without thinking about their consequence.

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Like we introduce microphones for instance.

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The biggest church before the big cathedral that we have in Egypt was Al-Izbakiya.

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Like what happened when we introduced microphones?

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We got these huge cathedrals that we can't do liturgy in.

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They don't work with liturgy.

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People can't see, the scales are weird.

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The icon to space scales are weird.

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Like everything is far, everyone is associated from it.

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And I understand in Egypt it might be different because it was difficult to build churches

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for a while.

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So maybe they had to sort of settle for larger churches.

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So there was an opportunity.

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Maybe, maybe that's true.

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But we're not in the same situation today and we're trying to mimic all these things

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without thinking about the consequences of what we're doing.

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Hello everyone.

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This is Father Paul and I hope you're having a good day.

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You're listening to Copts in Conversation.

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Welcome to this episode of Copts in Conversation where it's basically two cops sitting across

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the table, across the desk and having a conversation.

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Today I have the pleasure of having a conversation with Kareem Girgis.

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He is a software engineer who moonlights as a PhD student, patristic scholar, extraordinary

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liturgical scholar at Trinity College, U of T. And you're looking to produce an edition,

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a liturgical theological study of the Eucologian of the White Monastery.

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Very impressive.

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If all goes well.

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If all goes well, God willing.

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In your MTS at the Orthodox School of Theology at Trinity, your thesis was on the formative

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telus of liturgy and was under the supervision of Father Jeffrey Reddy.

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And I'm very excited to hear about this and about your conclusions.

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Full-time software engineer, graduated from McMaster University and married.

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Your parish is St. Mary and St. John of Lovett in Pickering.

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Awesome.

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So what drives a software engineer to study theology academically, more than beyond just

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reading a book or two here and there?

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God.

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Yeah, no, no.

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It happened almost very haphazardly, to be honest.

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You know, I first just, I was reading here and there.

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I was no, by no means a prolific reader or anything.

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I just read a few things and I was interested.

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I just wanted to say, you know, is there, I had a very, I think, restricted and incomplete

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vision of what orthodox theology would look like.

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But with that incomplete vision, I thought maybe I can, maybe it could be exhausted.

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Maybe I could read a book or take a course or something and I can just know orthodox

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theology.

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Yeah.

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And then to us studying it academically, I'm like, is there a course I can just take?

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Just one course, audit or something, and I can get like the highlights, get the spark

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notes of whatever belief you know.

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He's like, you know, why don't you masters?

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And in my mind, I'm an engineer.

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I'm like, what do you mean, man?

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I'm just an engineer.

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From the other side of the aisle, the sciences and you know, analytical thinking.

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Yeah, exactly.

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And in my mind, you know, a master's is a professional degree.

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Like if I do a master's degree in my engineering life, it will be because I want to get a better

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job if I want to, you know, maybe go into academia, but it's never, you know, for fun

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or it's never just personal development.

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Yeah, I'm just going to do a master's.

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But he really sold me well on it.

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He sold me, you know, it's just in the evening.

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You don't need to, you know, you're already reading already.

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It's not too much more reading.

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You're already doing the amount of reading.

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So why not, you know, it would just be asked to write a paper here and there or something.

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You could do as slow as you want.

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He told me, you know, he did the he said he gave me the bad advice of saying, you know,

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if you if you if you don't like it, you just like you're paying per course.

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Right.

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You could you could take a course like get admitted into the master's program.

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You could take the course that you want to take.

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Yeah.

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And then you're done.

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That's it.

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It can end there if you want.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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And he's like, this is the first step really for taking a course instead of just doing

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it for for ordering or something.

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But again, it makes sense.

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Yeah.

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OK, I'll just I'll enroll and I'll do the one course.

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And if I'm convinced, I'll like in my mind, there's no one going to be convinced.

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There's no one going to do a master's degree in theology for fun, for fun, especially.

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Yeah.

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And yeah, I enrolled in two courses that first semester.

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And yeah, it's one thing led to another and one course.

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We are on your second degree.

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Like a graduate degree, a PhD in theology.

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It's amazing.

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Well, thank God.

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Yeah, but really it was by God's.

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I think that's the answer.

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That's what leads someone to just one step at a time.

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Yeah, even in my master's, I didn't consider doing a PhD.

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It was just sort of a last minute decision, really.

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In my last semester, I thought, you know, maybe I'll apply and we'll see how it goes.

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I'm still seeing how it's going.

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I can definitely read like coming from an engineering background, too, like we don't

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take courses for fun.

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Like the only courses that you're required to take.

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And after a lot of negotiating with the department, I really have to take this course.

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Once it's settled, you have to take it, then you take it.

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But the idea of taking a course just for fun, for interest, that was something new for me

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as well.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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So I'm glad.

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I'm glad.

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You know, this is a very inspiring story because it just it starts with that one course.

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And that's why I tell people all the time, like, try this one course.

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You don't even have to take it for credit.

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Take it as audit.

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So you don't have to be responsible.

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So the thing is, when you audit a course versus taking it for credit, you know, you're not

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really you're losing on accountability and you might find yourself just not taking it

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as seriously as you would if it was for credit.

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And don't worry, these courses are, you know, for beginners, for people, for non specialists,

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for people who are just coming off the street.

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And you know, this is your first course in theology.

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You take it.

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They take you one step at a time and then you go from there.

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And before you know it, you're doing PhD in theology.

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Just you.

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Yeah, it's it's it's certainly interesting looking back even, you know, because it's

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as you said, you know, you know, and even even you or I at least didn't anticipate any

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of the things and who knows what happens next.

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You know, God does what he does.

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Absolutely.

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Absolutely.

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That's amazing.

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And the second is the environment at U of T in terms of, you know, were they helpful,

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you know, guiding you along the process?

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Because I can imagine this is something like this was brand new territory for you.

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You're an engineer.

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Yeah.

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This is like you're venturing literally, you know, blind into this area where you've never

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ventured before beyond, you know, reading, of course, you know, just for personal interest.

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And now you're like taking it like academically.

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Did you have any help with anyone kind of?

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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For assistance.

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To be honest, I read my first paper that I wrote and I was disgusted by it.

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It's terrible.

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I don't know how and it makes sense.

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An engineer writing a paper, it doesn't, it doesn't naturally flow.

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You only write equations, by the way, for the record, just equations.

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Papers are like this thing that like we hear about people do sometimes or may have done

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in the past, but we don't do.

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We don't do papers.

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Yeah.

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It's funny.

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I read engineering papers every now and then and it's just all equations and I compare

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it with the theology papers.

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I mean, it's just complete.

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It's such a stark difference.

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It's two different worlds really.

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But yeah, I read those papers and I think...

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Especially those first ones, right?

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Oh my goodness.

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I'm surprised they passed me even.

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It was, they were not good at all.

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But certainly, yes, there was a lot of guidance from really two sides.

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I started and my first couple of semesters, it was just me and one other, that other friend.

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Actually it was his last semester was my first semester and he went on to do a PhD after

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that and he just finished recently.

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And so there was that side of support.

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You have a familiar face, someone who can relate to the background you're coming from.

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There's many tropes that we hear in the Coptic Church and there's many patterns of what we

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do and stuff.

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So it was easy to confide in someone who's familiar with all these things, all these

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patterns and tropes and ways of life and liturgical things that we do.

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Liturgical not in ritual liturgy but we're very liturgical beings, there are things that

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we just do.

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But it was easy to confide in someone who understands all this background.

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And you know, and he's my friend, he knows that I'm an engineer, he knows I can't write,

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he knows these things and he can...

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He knows those weaknesses and he overlooks them.

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But he knows, at least intellectually, the concerns that I have.

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But there's also lots of support that I found in the school itself.

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For instance, Fr.

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Jeffrey, who we mentioned, supervised my thesis, he really sort of guided me through the program.

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And there's an admission interview at the beginning of the program, I know you're familiar

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with it.

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So he was asking me, you're coming from an engineering background, are you going to be

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able to...

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Are you not...

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What's the word?

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Intimidated by the readings and writing that you might be required to do.

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And I said yes.

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So he advised that the first two courses I took were by him.

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He said, just come to my courses for the first semester and I'll...

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Walk you through the process sort of step by step.

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I think he just took it easy on me and I'm thankful for it.

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But he's certainly been a great help along with all the other faculty there.

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They've really been role models in how someone can really be in academia and still not be

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detached from the church or from the life of...

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Oftentimes these things are separated, but it was very good seeing people who really

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enact the things they do.

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So that was very, I think...

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And that's been my experience too, that the experience there is very liturgical.

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It's not just an academic exercise.

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It's very much participation in what we're learning and a lived theology.

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And Father Jeffrey is the director now of the program.

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He was a joint director with the late Professor Schneider who recently passed away and he

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was also a world class scholar.

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Yeah, yeah.

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Actually in...

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So after that first semester or those first couple of semesters that I had alone, there

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was a sort of influx of cops that happened in the school.

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So that...

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It really created an environment, I think, to promote that first aspect of support, I

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think that I mentioned.

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For instance, after lectures in the evening, we'll finish at nine or 10 or something.

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We'll go to pray tazbaha together or something.

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And it was very encouraging and it was very good.

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In the symposium in honor of Professor Schneider, there were quite a few cops who actually presented

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papers and stuff.

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Yeah, no, it was...

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Absolutely.

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And at U of T in St. Michael's, we have a Coptic Chapel where we prayed there and tazbaha

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and everything.

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So as an environment, they were very supportive and they took you from the gate and walked

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you through step by step.

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And I'm sure these first few papers were just...

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Atrocious.

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I wish the pain of reading them on no one.

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But you can only imagine the pain of someone going and correcting them and going through

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them and reading them.

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And for that same person like Father Jeffrey, as you mentioned, he was the thesis advisor.

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So to see your development over the years and over time over all these courses and then

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your final product as your thesis.

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And I'm sure in his mind, I compare like, wow, very proud, where he came from and where

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he is now.

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That's amazing, an amazing journey.

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And all the different parts that came together for this to work, your support group, your

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friends.

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And I want to ask you also, how has the support been from church?

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Father confession, how did that play into it?

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So when I first applied Father Daniel from St. Mary's and St. John's blot and bickering,

244
00:13:55,680 --> 00:13:57,960
I asked him, what do you think?

245
00:13:57,960 --> 00:13:59,960
And he said, yes, I absolutely do it.

246
00:13:59,960 --> 00:14:00,960
And he was going to apply with me.

247
00:14:00,960 --> 00:14:01,960
He actually applied.

248
00:14:01,960 --> 00:14:03,760
He went through the application process so we could do it together.

249
00:14:03,760 --> 00:14:04,800
I didn't know that.

250
00:14:04,800 --> 00:14:10,480
But then his second letter of recommendation didn't go through on time.

251
00:14:10,480 --> 00:14:12,760
So they told him, okay, apply next semester.

252
00:14:12,760 --> 00:14:16,000
And then he was overwhelmed with things to do and stuff.

253
00:14:16,000 --> 00:14:19,880
But he was very, very supportive of it in terms of encouragement.

254
00:14:19,880 --> 00:14:24,360
And he's like, hey, I absolutely should do it.

255
00:14:24,360 --> 00:14:32,680
And other sort of spiritual ventures and stuff, whom I spoke with about the masters, but also

256
00:14:32,680 --> 00:14:38,160
after I was considering doing the PhD and stuff, it's certainly been very encouraging.

257
00:14:38,160 --> 00:14:44,840
And I know and I realize it's not always consistent with everybody's experience, but I found it

258
00:14:44,840 --> 00:14:53,200
to be thank God, very encouraged and very well supported in it.

259
00:14:53,200 --> 00:14:54,200
Thank God.

260
00:14:54,200 --> 00:14:55,200
Thank God.

261
00:14:55,200 --> 00:14:56,200
That's amazing.

262
00:14:56,200 --> 00:14:57,200
Yeah.

263
00:14:57,200 --> 00:15:06,840
So after having gone through the experience of going through MTS master's degree and then

264
00:15:06,840 --> 00:15:19,040
going through the advanced degree of the PhD, how has this affected your service and liturgical

265
00:15:19,040 --> 00:15:20,760
participation in your life in church?

266
00:15:20,760 --> 00:15:22,960
What was the impact on that?

267
00:15:22,960 --> 00:15:31,280
Oh, you should ask my wife, I complain about things all the time now.

268
00:15:31,280 --> 00:15:35,280
It's very interesting because it happened at a very particular time.

269
00:15:35,280 --> 00:15:37,680
So we lived in Ajax for a very long time.

270
00:15:37,680 --> 00:15:40,360
We got married in 2020 and we lived in Ajax.

271
00:15:40,360 --> 00:15:42,000
We both lived in Ajax from before that.

272
00:15:42,000 --> 00:15:49,960
But since we got married, we lived in Ajax until two years ago where I got a job offer

273
00:15:49,960 --> 00:15:50,960
in Kitchener.

274
00:15:50,960 --> 00:15:51,960
I was still doing my masters.

275
00:15:51,960 --> 00:15:54,000
I was finishing it up.

276
00:15:54,000 --> 00:15:57,560
So we lived there for a year for that job.

277
00:15:57,560 --> 00:16:03,120
And that's when I would have started applying for the PhD programs.

278
00:16:03,120 --> 00:16:07,460
In Kitchener, it was such a great community and everything, but just because of the time

279
00:16:07,460 --> 00:16:09,120
that we stayed, it was very brief.

280
00:16:09,120 --> 00:16:13,180
It was just a year and our families were in Ajax and Toronto and wherever.

281
00:16:13,180 --> 00:16:14,680
So we would try to come back on weekends.

282
00:16:14,680 --> 00:16:15,680
Cool.

283
00:16:15,680 --> 00:16:16,920
Lots of driving back and forth.

284
00:16:16,920 --> 00:16:17,920
Exactly.

285
00:16:17,920 --> 00:16:23,040
And driving tended to be concentrated on the weekends when you would otherwise go to the

286
00:16:23,040 --> 00:16:24,040
parish locally.

287
00:16:24,040 --> 00:16:25,040
Exactly.

288
00:16:25,040 --> 00:16:32,840
So we ended up going to the parish in Kitchener very little.

289
00:16:32,840 --> 00:16:34,640
We weren't very consistent in one parish.

290
00:16:34,640 --> 00:16:38,800
Sometimes we'd go to Kitchener, sometimes we'd go to St Mark's because my family goes

291
00:16:38,800 --> 00:16:39,800
there.

292
00:16:39,800 --> 00:16:42,200
Sometimes we'd go to St Mary's and St John's and blah blah blah because some of our friends

293
00:16:42,200 --> 00:16:44,040
and some of her family and stuff go there.

294
00:16:44,040 --> 00:16:50,280
So the timelines really conflicted.

295
00:16:50,280 --> 00:16:54,480
And that year, we attended liturgies consistently, but we never actually got very integrated

296
00:16:54,480 --> 00:16:55,480
in a community.

297
00:16:55,480 --> 00:17:03,320
We were able to serve in the same way that we were serving before leaving Ajax.

298
00:17:03,320 --> 00:17:10,080
So we stayed there for a year and went back to Ajax.

299
00:17:10,080 --> 00:17:19,880
And it's interesting to look at the service aspect of it because just before we left,

300
00:17:19,880 --> 00:17:21,160
it was the end of COVID.

301
00:17:21,160 --> 00:17:24,360
You were just starting to come back from home.

302
00:17:24,360 --> 00:17:27,880
Services weren't fully up and running again.

303
00:17:27,880 --> 00:17:28,880
Not yet.

304
00:17:28,880 --> 00:17:30,800
They're slowly coming back in person.

305
00:17:30,800 --> 00:17:34,480
So it wasn't just the one year that we weren't serving in this traditional way that one

306
00:17:34,480 --> 00:17:35,640
would serve.

307
00:17:35,640 --> 00:17:36,880
It was for a very long time.

308
00:17:36,880 --> 00:17:40,720
It was like three years.

309
00:17:40,720 --> 00:17:46,040
So it was interesting because the people now that you served three years ago are now serving

310
00:17:46,040 --> 00:17:47,040
themselves.

311
00:17:47,040 --> 00:17:48,040
They're old.

312
00:17:48,040 --> 00:17:49,040
They're adults.

313
00:17:49,040 --> 00:17:52,880
I will never consider them adults.

314
00:17:52,880 --> 00:17:57,440
No, they're incredible.

315
00:17:57,440 --> 00:18:09,240
And I find that my service is much less contained in a sort of didactic classroom setting that

316
00:18:09,240 --> 00:18:10,600
you would in Sunday school or something.

317
00:18:10,600 --> 00:18:15,640
You would go stand up and say, here's the lesson for today and whatever.

318
00:18:15,640 --> 00:18:26,160
It shifted a lot more to being just sort of more colloquial, to put it crudely.

319
00:18:26,160 --> 00:18:28,760
I don't know how you would explain it.

320
00:18:28,760 --> 00:18:29,760
Less formal maybe.

321
00:18:29,760 --> 00:18:30,760
Yes, absolutely.

322
00:18:30,760 --> 00:18:35,720
And it became, for instance, like I help out with the bookstore.

323
00:18:35,720 --> 00:18:41,720
These are the quote unquote formalized things.

324
00:18:41,720 --> 00:18:47,960
But as you said, the more relational aspect of it has been very, very de-formalized.

325
00:18:47,960 --> 00:18:53,840
And the quote unquote didactic piece became just me sort of ranting sometimes.

326
00:18:53,840 --> 00:19:00,960
My wife hears lots of it and she's like, it's her loss.

327
00:19:00,960 --> 00:19:03,280
What brings you to my next question?

328
00:19:03,280 --> 00:19:06,440
None of this would have been possible without her support.

329
00:19:06,440 --> 00:19:13,840
And I'm sure she read a lot of papers and helped you edit things and read things and

330
00:19:13,840 --> 00:19:16,680
she's back.

331
00:19:16,680 --> 00:19:18,720
She's incredible in every way.

332
00:19:18,720 --> 00:19:23,520
I married up in every single definition of it.

333
00:19:23,520 --> 00:19:24,960
She's absolutely wonderful.

334
00:19:24,960 --> 00:19:32,920
So she has earned honorary degrees, several degrees through the course of your studies.

335
00:19:32,920 --> 00:19:34,480
She's so much above this whole thing.

336
00:19:34,480 --> 00:19:38,560
She has, of course, she's earned all these degrees.

337
00:19:38,560 --> 00:19:39,560
It's nothing to her.

338
00:19:39,560 --> 00:19:42,560
She's way above that.

339
00:19:42,560 --> 00:19:49,600
No, no, yeah, no, she's incredible.

340
00:19:49,600 --> 00:20:00,680
And she's much, I think she provides the impetus always to bring back the head knowledge into

341
00:20:00,680 --> 00:20:02,240
sort of a practical sense.

342
00:20:02,240 --> 00:20:03,240
I'm usually the one.

343
00:20:03,240 --> 00:20:04,560
She keeps you grounded.

344
00:20:04,560 --> 00:20:08,280
She brings you back to the real, how do we put this into practice?

345
00:20:08,280 --> 00:20:09,280
Yeah.

346
00:20:09,280 --> 00:20:10,280
And I'm terrible.

347
00:20:10,280 --> 00:20:19,160
I have this very bad tendency to look at, I don't know, the way the architecture of

348
00:20:19,160 --> 00:20:23,400
our church maybe doesn't help our literature or something.

349
00:20:23,400 --> 00:20:24,400
And start grumbling and complaining.

350
00:20:24,400 --> 00:20:26,360
And she's like, are you going to go change it?

351
00:20:26,360 --> 00:20:27,360
Are you going to take the kit?

352
00:20:27,360 --> 00:20:30,520
Like are you going to break down the church and put it back up?

353
00:20:30,520 --> 00:20:31,520
Exactly.

354
00:20:31,520 --> 00:20:32,520
Good point.

355
00:20:32,520 --> 00:20:33,520
I guess.

356
00:20:33,520 --> 00:20:34,520
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

357
00:20:34,520 --> 00:20:35,520
It's humbling.

358
00:20:35,520 --> 00:20:36,520
Yeah.

359
00:20:36,520 --> 00:20:37,520
And it makes it real.

360
00:20:37,520 --> 00:20:49,080
It's not just I'm writing a paper or thinking about something and then stopping there.

361
00:20:49,080 --> 00:20:52,320
That's obviously what she means.

362
00:20:52,320 --> 00:20:55,280
She doesn't mean like go break the church down and build it up.

363
00:20:55,280 --> 00:20:59,680
But what she means is that ultimately value isn't in the thing that you do.

364
00:20:59,680 --> 00:21:02,120
If there's nothing that you can do, then pray.

365
00:21:02,120 --> 00:21:09,360
And if there's something that you do, that's the value.

366
00:21:09,360 --> 00:21:10,360
Very nice.

367
00:21:10,360 --> 00:21:14,480
And God bless her and bless all the spouses.

368
00:21:14,480 --> 00:21:17,320
Whether the husband is studying or the wife is studying.

369
00:21:17,320 --> 00:21:20,960
It's the spouse really that carries the lion's share of the load.

370
00:21:20,960 --> 00:21:23,880
So God bless them.

371
00:21:23,880 --> 00:21:29,520
I wanted to ask you about your MTS thesis.

372
00:21:29,520 --> 00:21:32,760
What got you interested in liturgical theology?

373
00:21:32,760 --> 00:21:35,520
What got you...

374
00:21:35,520 --> 00:21:41,240
Before we get into that, white monastery.

375
00:21:41,240 --> 00:21:42,240
What is that?

376
00:21:42,240 --> 00:21:48,800
Oh, the white monastery is one of the major monasteries in Stoheg, Egypt.

377
00:21:48,800 --> 00:21:59,320
It's the monastery that had Amashnouda, essentially the Arkhmai Rite, Beats Abbot.

378
00:21:59,320 --> 00:22:06,880
And he's the one with the sort of the largest literary corpus in Coptic, really.

379
00:22:06,880 --> 00:22:11,240
I was reading a book about it and it's estimated that he's written...

380
00:22:11,240 --> 00:22:15,040
I forget, but like hundreds of manuscripts or something.

381
00:22:15,040 --> 00:22:18,000
It's incredible.

382
00:22:18,000 --> 00:22:27,480
And it really houses most, if not all, the Sahi'itic sort of Coptic manuscripts that

383
00:22:27,480 --> 00:22:32,640
we have.

384
00:22:32,640 --> 00:22:33,640
It's really incredible.

385
00:22:33,640 --> 00:22:39,680
It houses so much, like liturgical manuscripts, hagiographies, like as I said, sort of literary

386
00:22:39,680 --> 00:22:41,280
things by Amashnouda.

387
00:22:41,280 --> 00:22:50,000
Otherwise it's quite a place.

388
00:22:50,000 --> 00:22:58,840
It was interesting to learn that it was in the council, I think, who's in Constantinople?

389
00:22:58,840 --> 00:23:09,600
Yeah, it's said that he was there and they entrusted the care of Nestorius to him.

390
00:23:09,600 --> 00:23:18,720
To keep him on a short leash, so to speak, to give the expression, to manage the situation,

391
00:23:18,720 --> 00:23:23,720
manage his rehabilitation.

392
00:23:23,720 --> 00:23:29,080
Anywhere in the empire, it was, let's send him to upper Egypt with San Shinouda.

393
00:23:29,080 --> 00:23:31,560
San Shinouda actually was very...

394
00:23:31,560 --> 00:23:37,280
He's one of the people who was very adamant on removing the Coptic church into actually

395
00:23:37,280 --> 00:23:39,720
using Coptic as opposed to Greek.

396
00:23:39,720 --> 00:23:40,720
He was one of those people.

397
00:23:40,720 --> 00:23:47,880
And that's why, for instance, I know when I was learning Coptic, there's two levels

398
00:23:47,880 --> 00:23:50,680
of Coptic, learning because they had a Coptic and then learning because they had a Coptic

399
00:23:50,680 --> 00:23:55,120
to understand San Shinouda because he uses this sort of high rhetoric and very complicated

400
00:23:55,120 --> 00:24:00,120
things to really sell you on the language, to say like, oh, look, we're just as good

401
00:24:00,120 --> 00:24:01,120
as the Greeks.

402
00:24:01,120 --> 00:24:07,200
And for a man in upper Egypt to use such highfalutin language, very philosophical, very philosophical,

403
00:24:07,200 --> 00:24:08,200
it's amazing.

404
00:24:08,200 --> 00:24:12,360
He was very well educated.

405
00:24:12,360 --> 00:24:13,360
And he knew Greek.

406
00:24:13,360 --> 00:24:14,360
He did.

407
00:24:14,360 --> 00:24:18,000
It's sort of generally accepted that he's, from the way he writes and stuff.

408
00:24:18,000 --> 00:24:22,840
It's not that he chose Coptic because he didn't know anything else, but he's fluent.

409
00:24:22,840 --> 00:24:27,520
No, no, he's certainly a very incredible character in history.

410
00:24:27,520 --> 00:24:29,560
And so much interest in his work these days.

411
00:24:29,560 --> 00:24:34,800
There's a whole host of scholars just focused on his work and translation and cataloging,

412
00:24:34,800 --> 00:24:42,680
manuscripts and archaeology and also there was a recent expedition, I think it was Yale

413
00:24:42,680 --> 00:24:44,960
University that restored the Red Monastery.

414
00:24:44,960 --> 00:24:46,320
Yes, yes, yes.

415
00:24:46,320 --> 00:24:51,440
Stephen Davis, I know you and I were attending the conference and he was presenting about

416
00:24:51,440 --> 00:24:54,040
the restoration there.

417
00:24:54,040 --> 00:24:55,040
It was unfortunate.

418
00:24:55,040 --> 00:25:02,360
One of the walls fell because of many factors and it was difficult to keep up because of

419
00:25:02,360 --> 00:25:06,760
limitations with COVID and travel restrictions and whatnot.

420
00:25:06,760 --> 00:25:15,680
But thankfully they seem to be putting it back together or somewhat at least trying to avoid

421
00:25:15,680 --> 00:25:16,680
further damage.

422
00:25:16,680 --> 00:25:19,680
Have you had a chance to go?

423
00:25:19,680 --> 00:25:22,920
I have not, but we're going to Egypt soon, God willing.

424
00:25:22,920 --> 00:25:23,920
We're going in August.

425
00:25:23,920 --> 00:25:26,880
I'm sure there's going to be one of the stops.

426
00:25:26,880 --> 00:25:29,720
I'm really pushing for it.

427
00:25:29,720 --> 00:25:37,320
It seems like I'm winning, but I won't rest until it's conclusive.

428
00:25:37,320 --> 00:25:40,640
You're in the process of negotiating.

429
00:25:40,640 --> 00:25:41,640
Exactly.

430
00:25:41,640 --> 00:25:42,640
Negotiating the itinerary.

431
00:25:42,640 --> 00:25:44,880
The problem is that it's summer.

432
00:25:44,880 --> 00:25:47,880
We're going in August, so it's very hot.

433
00:25:47,880 --> 00:25:48,880
It's quite...

434
00:25:48,880 --> 00:25:53,840
Yeah, I mean, it's nothing like Canada summer, nothing like Canada heat.

435
00:25:53,840 --> 00:25:56,800
It's hot here, it's humid, but nothing like upper Egypt.

436
00:25:56,800 --> 00:25:58,840
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

437
00:25:58,840 --> 00:26:01,680
I was pushing for even further south.

438
00:26:01,680 --> 00:26:05,880
I was pushing for Luxor and Aswan and everything, but that's being feared at the moment.

439
00:26:05,880 --> 00:26:13,160
It's so weird because when I was in Egypt, I came very young, but even then, it's not

440
00:26:13,160 --> 00:26:16,920
something that a lot of Egyptians who live in Egypt do.

441
00:26:16,920 --> 00:26:21,240
My parents never took me and none of my friends, their parents took them to Luxor, Aswan, all

442
00:26:21,240 --> 00:26:22,920
of these places.

443
00:26:22,920 --> 00:26:31,720
I think the maximum Egyptians do is the pyramids, if that, but most of the time, we don't.

444
00:26:31,720 --> 00:26:37,080
It's all tourists and it's all Egyptians from abroad coming, visiting and going.

445
00:26:37,080 --> 00:26:39,560
It's such a strange phenomenon because same with us.

446
00:26:39,560 --> 00:26:41,320
I came, I was young.

447
00:26:41,320 --> 00:26:46,440
I came when I was 11 or 12, 11, I think, and we didn't do any of this until we knew we

448
00:26:46,440 --> 00:26:47,440
were coming to Canada.

449
00:26:47,440 --> 00:26:50,080
Then we went to Luxor and Aswan, we went to the pyramids.

450
00:26:50,080 --> 00:26:53,720
Because you're thinking, I was going to be there, I'll go later.

451
00:26:53,720 --> 00:26:54,720
Exactly.

452
00:26:54,720 --> 00:26:58,840
So we went to all these places.

453
00:26:58,840 --> 00:27:04,880
So in the process of writing your thesis for the MTS, what was your aim?

454
00:27:04,880 --> 00:27:06,080
What was your direction?

455
00:27:06,080 --> 00:27:11,800
What did you want to accomplish and what did you find through the writing and research?

456
00:27:11,800 --> 00:27:20,480
So to preface, I guess, many of the courses that I took were initially very scandalizing

457
00:27:20,480 --> 00:27:21,480
to me.

458
00:27:21,480 --> 00:27:22,480
They were very shocking.

459
00:27:22,480 --> 00:27:24,640
It was like, what are you saying?

460
00:27:24,640 --> 00:27:26,840
How can you say this?

461
00:27:26,840 --> 00:27:30,800
For the liturgy course was one of those.

462
00:27:30,800 --> 00:27:33,360
And it was the first course, it was one of those first two courses that I took.

463
00:27:33,360 --> 00:27:36,920
I took the Eucharistic Liturgies course and the Pastoral course called the Church of the

464
00:27:36,920 --> 00:27:41,480
Margins.

465
00:27:41,480 --> 00:27:45,680
The Eucharistic Liturgies course was extremely scandalizing to me because one of the theses

466
00:27:45,680 --> 00:27:54,880
was, well, we have a tendency sometimes to look at liturgy as the word that was used

467
00:27:54,880 --> 00:27:59,320
in the class and because it's used by Father Alexander Schramm, who wrote a lot about liturgy

468
00:27:59,320 --> 00:28:06,280
in the Eastern Orthodox Church, that we perceive it often as illustratively symbolic.

469
00:28:06,280 --> 00:28:10,640
Whereas we should view it as what he calls symbolically real.

470
00:28:10,640 --> 00:28:16,520
And the distinction he makes is that the illustratively symbolic is when we imagine things that are

471
00:28:16,520 --> 00:28:17,520
not there.

472
00:28:17,520 --> 00:28:18,520
Right.

473
00:28:18,520 --> 00:28:27,080
You know, we hold the lefepha and we flap it around to imagine the Shirebun.

474
00:28:27,080 --> 00:28:33,480
We, I don't know, you know, there's all sorts of things like that.

475
00:28:33,480 --> 00:28:38,920
And it's not to remove from the rites that we do, but it's actually to add to it.

476
00:28:38,920 --> 00:28:43,280
That it's not just, we're not just imagining something that it's not there, but things,

477
00:28:43,280 --> 00:28:50,320
there's actually something happening that maybe it might be valuable to look at.

478
00:28:50,320 --> 00:28:52,880
So I had a hard time distinguishing between these two things.

479
00:28:52,880 --> 00:28:57,800
I was asking myself, like, why don't we aren't the Shirebun there?

480
00:28:57,800 --> 00:29:04,200
And why is that different than anything else that we call symbolically real?

481
00:29:04,200 --> 00:29:09,880
But I think intuitively we still, despite the intellectual sort of block, intuitively

482
00:29:09,880 --> 00:29:10,880
we understand.

483
00:29:10,880 --> 00:29:15,040
Like I understand that this is different than the Eucharist being the body and blood, you

484
00:29:15,040 --> 00:29:17,600
know, and nobody will question that.

485
00:29:17,600 --> 00:29:23,920
Like I can, people can forget to, you know, to wave the lefepha around and the liturgy

486
00:29:23,920 --> 00:29:28,160
would still be the liturgy, but you can't forget the bread and the wine.

487
00:29:28,160 --> 00:29:32,200
There's obviously something different.

488
00:29:32,200 --> 00:29:36,320
And it's not to ask, you know, how much can we take away from the liturgy before it becomes

489
00:29:36,320 --> 00:29:45,480
liturgy, but it's what is the liturgy providing for us?

490
00:29:45,480 --> 00:29:48,200
That was a very crude way of saying it, because it's not really about what it gives us.

491
00:29:48,200 --> 00:29:52,400
It's about what we are giving ourselves to.

492
00:29:52,400 --> 00:29:56,200
And what's happening in liturgy, what's happening in elements.

493
00:29:56,200 --> 00:29:57,200
Yeah.

494
00:29:57,200 --> 00:30:05,960
So that was sort of the ground that I was still sort of wrestling with.

495
00:30:05,960 --> 00:30:13,160
So I wanted to sort of understand, like, okay, we say there are things that are symbolically

496
00:30:13,160 --> 00:30:14,160
real.

497
00:30:14,160 --> 00:30:18,040
We say there are things that are illustratively symbolic.

498
00:30:18,040 --> 00:30:19,040
And it's about interpretation.

499
00:30:19,040 --> 00:30:23,120
It's about how we read liturgy, how we interpret and internalize it.

500
00:30:23,120 --> 00:30:29,920
So there's then a way that we should internalize liturgy and experience it.

501
00:30:29,920 --> 00:30:30,920
But why?

502
00:30:30,920 --> 00:30:32,560
Why is that the better way?

503
00:30:32,560 --> 00:30:37,040
Why should I then not imagine the sherbim doing the rings?

504
00:30:37,040 --> 00:30:40,760
Why should I not?

505
00:30:40,760 --> 00:30:44,840
You know, the example given by Shmemmin is like, you know, when they're processing in,

506
00:30:44,840 --> 00:30:47,320
it's like for Christ's burial and things like that.

507
00:30:47,320 --> 00:30:50,480
They have their own versions of these things.

508
00:30:50,480 --> 00:30:52,440
So why should I not do this?

509
00:30:52,440 --> 00:30:54,000
What happens when I not do this?

510
00:30:54,000 --> 00:30:56,560
What happens when I do the other thing?

511
00:30:56,560 --> 00:31:00,880
So that's the question that I'm trying to understand.

512
00:31:00,880 --> 00:31:02,600
Like, what is the end of liturgy?

513
00:31:02,600 --> 00:31:06,960
What does it do?

514
00:31:06,960 --> 00:31:09,680
And in a sense, what, like purpose?

515
00:31:09,680 --> 00:31:11,680
Yeah, like telescope.

516
00:31:11,680 --> 00:31:16,640
Like, what's the, what's the, where are we moving towards?

517
00:31:16,640 --> 00:31:18,440
What's the end of this quote unquote end of this road?

518
00:31:18,440 --> 00:31:21,560
It's not the end of liturgy, like this missile like I'm going to say.

519
00:31:21,560 --> 00:31:24,400
No, no, no, sorry.

520
00:31:24,400 --> 00:31:26,400
It's a bad source of words.

521
00:31:26,400 --> 00:31:29,400
No, it's perfect.

522
00:31:29,400 --> 00:31:33,440
Christ is the end of liturgy.

523
00:31:33,440 --> 00:31:34,440
Right.

524
00:31:34,440 --> 00:31:39,440
But yeah, that was the question I was trying to understand.

525
00:31:39,440 --> 00:31:45,640
And it's, it's, it's to put it in a one-liner.

526
00:31:45,640 --> 00:31:57,080
I think the proposition that I made based off of, I tried to, to not keep it, there's

527
00:31:57,080 --> 00:32:00,000
a lot of modern liturgical theology, so to speak.

528
00:32:00,000 --> 00:32:02,520
There's a lot of people in the modern times that took an interest in liturgy and wrote

529
00:32:02,520 --> 00:32:03,520
a lot about it.

530
00:32:03,520 --> 00:32:08,280
There's people like Father Alexander Schremen, you know, David Fagerberg, Father Aiden Kavanagh,

531
00:32:08,280 --> 00:32:11,800
Father Louis Bouillet, there's so many.

532
00:32:11,800 --> 00:32:14,760
Even in the Coptic Church, I know Abouna Thedros wrote about liturgy beautifully.

533
00:32:14,760 --> 00:32:19,560
Abouna Pshoye Kamel has some sermons that were transcribed.

534
00:32:19,560 --> 00:32:24,960
A lot of modern people that wrote beautifully about liturgy.

535
00:32:24,960 --> 00:32:29,640
But also the fathers didn't miss these things either.

536
00:32:29,640 --> 00:32:34,200
And I think one of the, the character, like one of the benefits of being Orthodox, I think,

537
00:32:34,200 --> 00:32:41,160
is that we don't distinguish between modern and ancient as much as, as we like to think

538
00:32:41,160 --> 00:32:45,000
or others like to think or do.

539
00:32:45,000 --> 00:32:50,240
You know, it's ultimately a church, you know, there's many voices that speak and harmonize

540
00:32:50,240 --> 00:32:51,240
with each other.

541
00:32:51,240 --> 00:32:57,840
I think that's the key that I think makes us identify tradition.

542
00:32:57,840 --> 00:33:03,120
You know, like there's all these famous quotes, what tradition is, you know, there's like

543
00:33:03,120 --> 00:33:07,000
an Eastern Orthodox author, Vladimir Lossky says, you know, tradition is the life of the

544
00:33:07,000 --> 00:33:08,360
Holy Spirit in the church.

545
00:33:08,360 --> 00:33:16,440
Yaroslav Felikian also famously says, you know, it's tradition is the life, the living

546
00:33:16,440 --> 00:33:22,480
faith of the dead and traditionalism is the dead faith of the living.

547
00:33:22,480 --> 00:33:28,120
And I think both of these speak to the fact that it begins, quote unquote, traditionally,

548
00:33:28,120 --> 00:33:34,800
it begins with what's old because, you know, it was true, it's always true, Orthodoxy,

549
00:33:34,800 --> 00:33:36,560
Christianity is always true.

550
00:33:36,560 --> 00:33:41,440
So it begins with what's true then, but every sort of new voice comes in and doesn't add

551
00:33:41,440 --> 00:33:48,720
something new, but it harmonizes with what's old, you know, and sort of to carry the symphonic

552
00:33:48,720 --> 00:33:54,880
effect of a whole sort of symphony.

553
00:33:54,880 --> 00:33:59,040
And those kind of along the lines of, you know, early Christians, early church fathers

554
00:33:59,040 --> 00:34:04,640
who thought of the bishop as, you know, the conductor of the orchestra and the harmony

555
00:34:04,640 --> 00:34:10,240
of the church and, you know, harmonizes, you know, all the sheep in a flock and getting

556
00:34:10,240 --> 00:34:14,960
them to be, you know, one voice that, you know, noise, their voices are all, you know,

557
00:34:14,960 --> 00:34:15,960
in unison in harmony.

558
00:34:15,960 --> 00:34:16,960
Yeah.

559
00:34:16,960 --> 00:34:21,760
I was reading actually, sorry, I'm going on a tangent, but I was reading this, the life

560
00:34:21,760 --> 00:34:24,960
of Hilaria, the Coptic life of St. Hilaria.

561
00:34:24,960 --> 00:34:33,200
And in the opening lines, it describes God as Khurige, as the word, it's a Greek word

562
00:34:33,200 --> 00:34:37,200
that God sort of borrowed into the Coptic.

563
00:34:37,200 --> 00:34:44,400
And in the Greek, it's used to describe the person leading an orchestra or like organizing

564
00:34:44,400 --> 00:34:49,640
choir, the person who does the choir, like sort of the choir leader, so to speak.

565
00:34:49,640 --> 00:34:54,760
And I found that to be a beautiful image, very consistent, again, I'm going on another

566
00:34:54,760 --> 00:34:58,720
tangent, like Saint Jacob of Sarug in the sixth century.

567
00:34:58,720 --> 00:35:05,440
Also like in his text on creation, he talks about how God is directing this beautiful

568
00:35:05,440 --> 00:35:06,560
liturgy at the beginning.

569
00:35:06,560 --> 00:35:10,760
The creation is really God creating a liturgy, doing a liturgy.

570
00:35:10,760 --> 00:35:15,280
But sorry, I'll go off the statements.

571
00:35:15,280 --> 00:35:23,720
And I did hear, you know, that first chapter of Genesis being this liturgical hymn, you

572
00:35:23,720 --> 00:35:27,200
know, with the chorus, you know, it was evening, it was morning.

573
00:35:27,200 --> 00:35:28,200
Exactly.

574
00:35:28,200 --> 00:35:32,080
It's a very, like, it's a trope of rhetoric.

575
00:35:32,080 --> 00:35:36,160
There is that, it's to someone who knows the language and knows the patterns and stuff,

576
00:35:36,160 --> 00:35:37,160
it's an obvious pattern.

577
00:35:37,160 --> 00:35:38,160
Right.

578
00:35:38,160 --> 00:35:47,840
This is a liturgical hymn, there's something to be sung and said, what's the word?

579
00:35:47,840 --> 00:35:48,840
Rhythmically.

580
00:35:48,840 --> 00:35:49,840
Yeah, yeah.

581
00:35:49,840 --> 00:35:51,400
There's like it's prose.

582
00:35:51,400 --> 00:35:57,680
It's not just like, you know, I think one thing we lose is when we take it out of the

583
00:35:57,680 --> 00:36:02,000
book, like, especially for example, like with the songs, if you read in your Bible, often

584
00:36:02,000 --> 00:36:11,480
times you'll find it, again, written in prose, but then sometimes we lose these tropes.

585
00:36:11,480 --> 00:36:15,360
But we didn't lose them, like we lost them in print, really.

586
00:36:15,360 --> 00:36:16,840
It's the way it's printed, that's right.

587
00:36:16,840 --> 00:36:17,840
Yeah.

588
00:36:17,840 --> 00:36:22,960
Like I was looking at like an Arabic 19th century, like very late manuscript that preserved

589
00:36:22,960 --> 00:36:23,960
these prose.

590
00:36:23,960 --> 00:36:28,720
It was all in text because, you know, they try to say paper and stuff, but they broke

591
00:36:28,720 --> 00:36:33,160
them up in red dots to distinguish the...

592
00:36:33,160 --> 00:36:38,240
Yeah, but like in my experience, Psalm 117, like it's not this acrostic, no, it's like

593
00:36:38,240 --> 00:36:40,680
all just one big block of text.

594
00:36:40,680 --> 00:36:41,680
Exactly.

595
00:36:41,680 --> 00:36:42,680
And it loses that.

596
00:36:42,680 --> 00:36:43,680
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

597
00:36:43,680 --> 00:36:48,080
There is a beauty that's preserved in the text that we sort of lose sometimes.

598
00:36:48,080 --> 00:36:55,240
There's an English version of the Bible, I think the John Dock version that he translates

599
00:36:55,240 --> 00:37:01,120
from the Vulgate, from the Latin, but he consults the Greek, like the Septuagint in the Old

600
00:37:01,120 --> 00:37:10,840
Testament and the Masoretic Hebrew to try to preserve the rhetorical elements of it.

601
00:37:10,840 --> 00:37:13,880
So for example, Psalm 118 is acrostic.

602
00:37:13,880 --> 00:37:20,120
He tried in English, like he preserves all these rhetorical devices that are used that

603
00:37:20,120 --> 00:37:22,400
we miss otherwise.

604
00:37:22,400 --> 00:37:26,320
Because it only works in Hebrew, so to get it to work in English, that's not easy.

605
00:37:26,320 --> 00:37:27,320
It's very good.

606
00:37:27,320 --> 00:37:28,320
It was beautiful.

607
00:37:28,320 --> 00:37:30,320
It's available online, like if you go there.

608
00:37:30,320 --> 00:37:34,240
I'm sorry, I went on like three tangents.

609
00:37:34,240 --> 00:37:35,240
My thesis.

610
00:37:35,240 --> 00:37:36,240
Back to your thesis.

611
00:37:36,240 --> 00:37:44,040
Yeah, so I tried to really make use of this sort of Orthodox framework that we have, that

612
00:37:44,040 --> 00:37:46,760
these voices are meant to harmonize with each other.

613
00:37:46,760 --> 00:37:49,720
So I tried to answer this question looking that way.

614
00:37:49,720 --> 00:37:54,520
So it's not exclusively, you know, patristic, it's not exclusively modern, it's not exclusively

615
00:37:54,520 --> 00:38:01,000
anything other than Orthodox, I think, because that's the methodology that we've lived with,

616
00:38:01,000 --> 00:38:04,800
you know, for like 2000 years.

617
00:38:04,800 --> 00:38:18,640
And so the, I think that the end that I think this methodology reaches is really that liturgy

618
00:38:18,640 --> 00:38:25,040
is made to form us.

619
00:38:25,040 --> 00:38:29,080
And it's not arbitrary.

620
00:38:29,080 --> 00:38:37,100
It really forms us into Christ, and it's not a passive formation.

621
00:38:37,100 --> 00:38:42,440
It puts us in this environment that we're able to sort of internalize all these stimuli

622
00:38:42,440 --> 00:38:46,560
that push us on the story that we're sort of participating in, that we're enacting,

623
00:38:46,560 --> 00:38:47,560
that we're doing something.

624
00:38:47,560 --> 00:38:50,360
It's a choreographed dance, if you will.

625
00:38:50,360 --> 00:38:56,800
You know, we prostrate, we kiss icons going to processions, we kiss each other, like with

626
00:38:56,800 --> 00:39:02,480
the kiss of peace, we smell incense, we hear...

627
00:39:02,480 --> 00:39:03,840
Engages all of the senses.

628
00:39:03,840 --> 00:39:04,840
Everything.

629
00:39:04,840 --> 00:39:06,640
When we were moving, we're doing all these things.

630
00:39:06,640 --> 00:39:11,480
Historically, liturgy was also like the procession that we enter with in every feast was the

631
00:39:11,480 --> 00:39:13,320
thing that happened in every liturgy.

632
00:39:13,320 --> 00:39:17,760
And liturgy was sort of broken up into two places.

633
00:39:17,760 --> 00:39:21,760
So the time, you know, that we go around with the gospel book inside the altar before the

634
00:39:21,760 --> 00:39:26,320
litany of the gospel, or after the litany of the gospel, before the reading of the gospel,

635
00:39:26,320 --> 00:39:29,240
that was another pivotal point of procession in liturgy.

636
00:39:29,240 --> 00:39:32,720
We didn't have benches.

637
00:39:32,720 --> 00:39:35,360
The pews just restrict so much of the movement.

638
00:39:35,360 --> 00:39:36,360
Exactly.

639
00:39:36,360 --> 00:39:39,120
You know, to sit is not the same as to prostrate.

640
00:39:39,120 --> 00:39:41,160
If I'm tired at home, I'm not going to prostrate.

641
00:39:41,160 --> 00:39:42,560
I'm going to sit.

642
00:39:42,560 --> 00:39:44,680
And I perceive that differently, completely.

643
00:39:44,680 --> 00:39:49,280
So when I go and sit in liturgy, that's not the same as prostrating.

644
00:39:49,280 --> 00:39:51,520
And I pretend like it is, but it's not.

645
00:39:51,520 --> 00:39:53,520
Yeah, pews suck.

646
00:39:53,520 --> 00:39:56,000
Get rid of pews.

647
00:39:56,000 --> 00:39:58,440
And while we get rid of the pews, get rid of the crying room.

648
00:39:58,440 --> 00:40:01,720
Oh, crying, the microphones, electrical lighting.

649
00:40:01,720 --> 00:40:09,120
And I, my wife makes the joke, says if I ever am giving the key to design churches, nobody

650
00:40:09,120 --> 00:40:10,120
will come.

651
00:40:10,120 --> 00:40:15,960
I've heard actually of one bishop saying to his choir, this is an Eastern Orthodox church,

652
00:40:15,960 --> 00:40:19,400
saying to his choir, you can only have what the apostles had.

653
00:40:19,400 --> 00:40:21,160
So they didn't have microphones.

654
00:40:21,160 --> 00:40:25,720
You can't have microphones if, you know, they don't have any digital.

655
00:40:25,720 --> 00:40:30,320
You know, iPads, whatever screens, you can't have that.

656
00:40:30,320 --> 00:40:31,320
Whatever they had, you can have.

657
00:40:31,320 --> 00:40:33,840
Yeah, I think there's so much wisdom in this.

658
00:40:33,840 --> 00:40:37,320
It seems, you know, someone might hear it and say that's just fundamentalist, traditionalist.

659
00:40:37,320 --> 00:40:42,440
He doesn't understand, you know, that they use the letter over spirit type.

660
00:40:42,440 --> 00:40:43,440
Yeah.

661
00:40:43,440 --> 00:40:45,560
Or like, you know, they like it.

662
00:40:45,560 --> 00:40:49,560
Someone might say dismisses the fact that they use their own technology or electric

663
00:40:49,560 --> 00:40:50,560
candles.

664
00:40:50,560 --> 00:40:51,560
Oh my goodness.

665
00:40:51,560 --> 00:40:52,560
Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh,

666
00:40:52,560 --> 00:40:53,560
oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh,

667
00:40:53,560 --> 00:40:55,760
oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh,

668
00:40:55,760 --> 00:40:56,800
oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh

669
00:40:56,800 --> 00:40:58,880
Oh, oh, oh, oh oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, ohoh oh, oh oh, oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh o

670
00:40:58,880 --> 00:40:59,800
oh oh oh oh ohoh ohoh ohoh ohoh ohoh ohoh ohoh

671
00:40:59,800 --> 00:41:00,800
ohoh ohoh ohoh ohoh ohoh ohoh ohoh ohoh ohoh nine oh oh oh ohoh ohoh ohoh and

672
00:41:00,800 --> 00:41:01,800
you want to know how to turn them on.

673
00:41:01,800 --> 00:41:06,280
It demands that I'm not playing around with it.

674
00:41:06,280 --> 00:41:08,640
It demands that people around me are watching me

675
00:41:08,640 --> 00:41:11,880
to make sure I'm not gonna burn anyone or anything.

676
00:41:11,880 --> 00:41:12,720
It actually can't do anything.

677
00:41:12,720 --> 00:41:13,560
It's light and fire.

678
00:41:13,560 --> 00:41:17,600
It's not this passive thing that's just been declawed

679
00:41:17,600 --> 00:41:21,160
and the threat of it, the danger of it has been removed

680
00:41:21,160 --> 00:41:25,040
in order just to mimic something,

681
00:41:25,040 --> 00:41:26,720
a shadow of itself kind of thing.

682
00:41:26,720 --> 00:41:27,960
Exactly, exactly.

683
00:41:28,920 --> 00:41:31,600
And there's a natural response to fire.

684
00:41:31,600 --> 00:41:33,560
I feel it, it's hot.

685
00:41:33,560 --> 00:41:37,400
I know that the wax is melting on my hand

686
00:41:37,400 --> 00:41:39,400
to tell me this is dangerous.

687
00:41:39,400 --> 00:41:41,800
I know people, like uncle is gonna yell at me

688
00:41:41,800 --> 00:41:43,120
if I hold it close to my hair

689
00:41:43,120 --> 00:41:44,760
because it's gonna catch on fire.

690
00:41:45,520 --> 00:41:47,800
If we're walking in a procession,

691
00:41:47,800 --> 00:41:49,880
somebody's hair is gonna go on fire if I get too close.

692
00:41:49,880 --> 00:41:51,600
If I'm not careful, I'm not paying attention.

693
00:41:51,600 --> 00:41:52,440
Exactly.

694
00:41:52,440 --> 00:41:53,920
If I'm distracted, it demands that.

695
00:41:53,920 --> 00:41:55,360
It demands, yeah, it demands attention.

696
00:41:55,360 --> 00:41:57,040
It demands care.

697
00:41:57,040 --> 00:41:58,440
It demands a lot of things

698
00:41:58,440 --> 00:42:01,040
that are not demanded by electrical candles.

699
00:42:01,040 --> 00:42:04,600
And we do this with so many aspects of liturgy.

700
00:42:04,600 --> 00:42:07,720
We do this with electrical lighting.

701
00:42:08,880 --> 00:42:11,040
I can go on this, like a similar rant with that.

702
00:42:11,040 --> 00:42:13,400
I can go on rants on anything.

703
00:42:13,400 --> 00:42:14,240
My poor wife.

704
00:42:15,280 --> 00:42:16,960
She gets to hear all these rants.

705
00:42:16,960 --> 00:42:19,720
All these random tangents happening.

706
00:42:22,160 --> 00:42:24,480
But it's important thoughts to have

707
00:42:24,480 --> 00:42:26,680
and discussions to have and to engage in

708
00:42:26,680 --> 00:42:28,920
to think about why we do the things that we do

709
00:42:28,920 --> 00:42:32,920
and if doing them different changes the experience

710
00:42:32,920 --> 00:42:36,400
and if these changes are significant

711
00:42:36,400 --> 00:42:39,360
or if they just don't matter.

712
00:42:39,360 --> 00:42:41,480
These are very important conversations.

713
00:42:41,480 --> 00:42:44,040
I think the biggest problem is that we introduce things

714
00:42:44,040 --> 00:42:46,680
without thinking about the consequence.

715
00:42:46,680 --> 00:42:48,640
Like we introduce microphones, for instance.

716
00:42:48,640 --> 00:42:51,000
The biggest church before the big cathedral

717
00:42:51,000 --> 00:42:53,600
that we have in Egypt was Al-Azbakiya.

718
00:42:53,600 --> 00:42:55,320
Like what happened when we introduced microphones?

719
00:42:55,320 --> 00:42:59,320
We got these huge cathedrals that we can't do liturgy in.

720
00:42:59,320 --> 00:43:00,760
They don't work with liturgy.

721
00:43:02,120 --> 00:43:02,960
People can't see.

722
00:43:02,960 --> 00:43:04,560
The scales are weird.

723
00:43:04,560 --> 00:43:07,920
The icon to space scales are weird.

724
00:43:07,920 --> 00:43:10,480
Like everything is far.

725
00:43:10,480 --> 00:43:12,000
Everyone's associated from it.

726
00:43:13,520 --> 00:43:16,600
And I understand in Egypt it might be different

727
00:43:16,600 --> 00:43:18,600
because it was difficult to build churches for a while.

728
00:43:18,600 --> 00:43:21,680
So maybe they had to sort of settle for larger churches.

729
00:43:21,680 --> 00:43:23,000
So there was an opportunity.

730
00:43:23,000 --> 00:43:23,880
Maybe that's true.

731
00:43:23,880 --> 00:43:25,480
But we're not in the same situation today

732
00:43:25,480 --> 00:43:28,280
and we're trying to mimic all these things

733
00:43:28,280 --> 00:43:30,760
without thinking about the consequences of what we're doing.

734
00:43:30,760 --> 00:43:35,600
And you don't find large cathedrals often in the East.

735
00:43:35,600 --> 00:43:39,440
And when you do, it's not used in the same way

736
00:43:39,440 --> 00:43:40,640
or even in the West actually.

737
00:43:40,640 --> 00:43:43,000
Even in the West when you have large cathedrals,

738
00:43:43,000 --> 00:43:46,280
they're not actually used as like parish churches.

739
00:43:47,280 --> 00:43:50,600
You have, to say an old trope,

740
00:43:50,600 --> 00:43:55,520
oftentimes European cities are built around churches,

741
00:43:55,520 --> 00:43:56,720
large cathedrals.

742
00:43:56,720 --> 00:43:59,360
But the town churches are not the large cathedrals.

743
00:43:59,360 --> 00:44:02,240
People would go on Sunday in the local churches

744
00:44:02,240 --> 00:44:03,360
and the local parishes.

745
00:44:03,360 --> 00:44:05,800
In the small places where you're able to do liturgy,

746
00:44:05,800 --> 00:44:10,160
the large cathedrals were exclusive for high feasts

747
00:44:10,160 --> 00:44:11,800
when you're processing through the town or something

748
00:44:11,800 --> 00:44:13,680
and you end in the cathedral.

749
00:44:13,680 --> 00:44:14,520
In the cathedral, right.

750
00:44:14,520 --> 00:44:17,240
Or, and they had multiple altars.

751
00:44:17,240 --> 00:44:18,880
You notice, especially in the West,

752
00:44:18,880 --> 00:44:21,920
there's like five or six altars all around the cathedral

753
00:44:21,920 --> 00:44:23,920
because the main-

754
00:44:23,920 --> 00:44:24,880
Different feasts, right?

755
00:44:24,880 --> 00:44:26,560
Yeah, and the main altar,

756
00:44:26,560 --> 00:44:28,400
that implies that you're using the fullness

757
00:44:28,400 --> 00:44:31,600
of the cathedral is impractical.

758
00:44:31,600 --> 00:44:32,600
That's right, yeah.

759
00:44:34,400 --> 00:44:36,200
Especially given the fact that you don't have mics

760
00:44:36,200 --> 00:44:37,040
for a very long time.

761
00:44:37,040 --> 00:44:38,440
And you have side chapels

762
00:44:38,440 --> 00:44:41,440
and chapels behind the main sanctuary.

763
00:44:41,440 --> 00:44:42,280
Right.

764
00:44:42,280 --> 00:44:45,320
Notre Dame has all sorts of different areas

765
00:44:45,320 --> 00:44:48,000
and chapels and places and altars all over.

766
00:44:48,000 --> 00:44:49,600
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

767
00:44:49,600 --> 00:44:51,800
We, in the Co-op Church,

768
00:44:51,800 --> 00:44:53,040
we've introduced these large cathedrals

769
00:44:53,040 --> 00:44:55,720
without thinking about what this is doing to liturgy.

770
00:44:55,720 --> 00:44:58,680
Our experience is completely different

771
00:44:58,680 --> 00:45:00,800
than what others might've experienced.

772
00:45:00,800 --> 00:45:03,960
And we forget that this experience is the way

773
00:45:03,960 --> 00:45:08,160
that we're sort of internalizing our knowledge of liturgy.

774
00:45:09,440 --> 00:45:10,600
You know, no one is just sitting there

775
00:45:10,600 --> 00:45:11,560
reading books about liturgy.

776
00:45:11,560 --> 00:45:12,560
How should I understand this?

777
00:45:12,560 --> 00:45:13,720
How should I do this?

778
00:45:14,920 --> 00:45:16,920
And I don't think everyone should.

779
00:45:16,920 --> 00:45:19,680
Like, I don't think you need that to actually appreciate,

780
00:45:19,680 --> 00:45:21,360
to be formed by liturgy.

781
00:45:21,360 --> 00:45:23,920
Like, liturgy doesn't require that you've read

782
00:45:23,920 --> 00:45:25,840
all these like books about how it works.

783
00:45:25,840 --> 00:45:27,000
Kavanaugh or Schmemann.

784
00:45:27,000 --> 00:45:28,000
Yeah. Right.

785
00:45:28,000 --> 00:45:29,960
Like, liturgy works because it works.

786
00:45:31,240 --> 00:45:33,600
People were formed by liturgy before any books

787
00:45:33,600 --> 00:45:35,000
about liturgy were written.

788
00:45:35,000 --> 00:45:36,600
In the early centuries, for instance,

789
00:45:36,600 --> 00:45:38,320
like Cyril of Jerusalem,

790
00:45:38,320 --> 00:45:40,640
he has these catechetical orations.

791
00:45:40,640 --> 00:45:42,000
And the five mystological orations,

792
00:45:42,000 --> 00:45:43,440
like the ones, the last,

793
00:45:43,440 --> 00:45:45,320
so basically those orations or sermons

794
00:45:45,320 --> 00:45:48,640
that he gave to people being baptized into Christianity.

795
00:45:48,640 --> 00:45:50,320
The last five were about the mysteries.

796
00:45:50,320 --> 00:45:51,160
Yeah.

797
00:45:51,160 --> 00:45:54,400
He didn't give those before people were baptized.

798
00:45:54,400 --> 00:45:57,120
People were first baptized, went to liturgy,

799
00:45:57,120 --> 00:45:59,480
had communion, did all the things.

800
00:45:59,480 --> 00:46:00,960
And then he took them, okay,

801
00:46:00,960 --> 00:46:02,520
this is what just happened to you.

802
00:46:02,520 --> 00:46:03,800
And he explains it to them.

803
00:46:03,800 --> 00:46:05,280
Because liturgy speaks for itself.

804
00:46:05,280 --> 00:46:06,800
Like, experience comes first

805
00:46:06,800 --> 00:46:08,760
and then we try and understand it.

806
00:46:08,760 --> 00:46:11,320
But when we disrupt this experience,

807
00:46:12,640 --> 00:46:13,960
we have to say in the books,

808
00:46:13,960 --> 00:46:15,840
like imagine it was dark.

809
00:46:15,840 --> 00:46:17,680
Imagine fire burned you.

810
00:46:17,680 --> 00:46:21,040
Imagine you couldn't see outside from the windows.

811
00:46:21,040 --> 00:46:22,680
Imagine all these things.

812
00:46:23,800 --> 00:46:25,280
And it becomes very inorganic.

813
00:46:26,360 --> 00:46:27,360
Right.

814
00:46:27,360 --> 00:46:31,680
And it becomes almost like performative almost.

815
00:46:33,680 --> 00:46:36,240
You have the electric candle or the electric screen.

816
00:46:36,240 --> 00:46:41,240
I'm not against using modern technology,

817
00:46:41,240 --> 00:46:44,240
but it has to be thoughtfully used,

818
00:46:44,240 --> 00:46:46,960
not just randomly haphazardly.

819
00:46:46,960 --> 00:46:50,440
Like, we use it just because we can.

820
00:46:50,440 --> 00:46:54,440
Just because it's available, we use it and it's fine.

821
00:46:54,440 --> 00:46:56,600
And it makes the liturgy,

822
00:46:56,600 --> 00:46:59,760
like it doesn't affect it in any way.

823
00:46:59,760 --> 00:47:00,600
That's not true.

824
00:47:00,600 --> 00:47:02,400
And oftentimes, like when I have these conversations

825
00:47:02,400 --> 00:47:03,240
with people, they tell me,

826
00:47:03,240 --> 00:47:04,640
well, you're just trying to make liturgy.

827
00:47:04,640 --> 00:47:05,840
It's all about comfort.

828
00:47:05,840 --> 00:47:07,400
It's because it's comfortable.

829
00:47:07,400 --> 00:47:10,000
People are gonna be standing, it's gonna hurt their legs.

830
00:47:10,000 --> 00:47:12,760
Microphones, it's because they're uncomfortable.

831
00:47:12,760 --> 00:47:14,480
People are not gonna hear.

832
00:47:14,480 --> 00:47:16,120
You're making it difficult for people.

833
00:47:16,120 --> 00:47:18,520
Candles, it's because it's uncomfortable.

834
00:47:18,520 --> 00:47:19,600
Someone's gonna get burned.

835
00:47:19,600 --> 00:47:22,160
Something's gonna happen, whatever.

836
00:47:22,160 --> 00:47:23,680
But liturgy is not about comfort.

837
00:47:23,680 --> 00:47:26,080
Love is actually very uncomfortable.

838
00:47:26,080 --> 00:47:30,440
Christ is in fact, up on our churches on a cross,

839
00:47:30,440 --> 00:47:31,880
which is quite uncomfortable.

840
00:47:33,440 --> 00:47:35,640
And we say that this is love,

841
00:47:35,640 --> 00:47:37,520
because it's uncomfortable,

842
00:47:37,520 --> 00:47:39,480
to really, really reduce what it is.

843
00:47:39,480 --> 00:47:40,640
Because it's uncomfortable.

844
00:47:40,640 --> 00:47:41,720
It's not just uncomfortable.

845
00:47:41,720 --> 00:47:42,920
It's much more than that.

846
00:47:44,840 --> 00:47:48,840
And if comfort then becomes the ultimate measure

847
00:47:48,840 --> 00:47:53,440
of how successful or accommodating a church is,

848
00:47:53,440 --> 00:47:55,200
then we've lost the point.

849
00:47:55,200 --> 00:47:56,200
Then why do liturgy?

850
00:47:56,200 --> 00:47:58,840
It's not about comfort or convenience.

851
00:47:58,840 --> 00:48:01,320
Like there's nothing convenient about waking up at six

852
00:48:01,320 --> 00:48:03,440
in the morning and praying prime.

853
00:48:03,440 --> 00:48:07,640
There's nothing comfortable about tasbih midnight prayer.

854
00:48:07,640 --> 00:48:08,760
Like it's not about that.

855
00:48:08,760 --> 00:48:09,600
That's not the goal.

856
00:48:09,600 --> 00:48:10,440
That's not the point.

857
00:48:10,440 --> 00:48:11,960
There's nothing comfortable about fasting,

858
00:48:11,960 --> 00:48:13,840
or at least it shouldn't be.

859
00:48:13,840 --> 00:48:18,120
If it's comfortable, I think we might be doing something else.

860
00:48:18,120 --> 00:48:19,520
Have you tried those Beyond Meat burgers?

861
00:48:19,520 --> 00:48:20,360
Oh, Beyond Meat.

862
00:48:20,360 --> 00:48:21,360
It's Beyond Meat.

863
00:48:23,360 --> 00:48:24,200
It's Beyond Meat.

864
00:48:24,200 --> 00:48:25,040
Beyond Meat.

865
00:48:25,040 --> 00:48:25,880
Yeah.

866
00:48:27,000 --> 00:48:27,840
Absolutely.

867
00:48:27,840 --> 00:48:31,680
And I think it's because we're not having these conversations

868
00:48:31,680 --> 00:48:33,840
before we implement changes,

869
00:48:33,840 --> 00:48:37,680
that by the time we realize something is off

870
00:48:37,680 --> 00:48:40,640
or something's different, we might not even realize that.

871
00:48:41,800 --> 00:48:44,800
I know that in many churches, for example, the icons,

872
00:48:44,800 --> 00:48:47,640
they're not Orthodox icons.

873
00:48:47,640 --> 00:48:50,560
They're Western paintings.

874
00:48:51,920 --> 00:48:53,120
And not even good ones.

875
00:48:53,120 --> 00:48:54,400
And sometimes, yeah.

876
00:48:54,400 --> 00:48:57,840
And sometimes they're not even good copies

877
00:48:57,840 --> 00:49:01,880
or prints of really nice ones.

878
00:49:01,880 --> 00:49:05,920
But when people ask, it becomes aesthetics.

879
00:49:05,920 --> 00:49:08,040
It becomes whatever is pleasing to the eye,

880
00:49:08,040 --> 00:49:11,120
whatever looks nice, whatever people are used to.

881
00:49:11,120 --> 00:49:14,840
And instead of the icon pointing you somewhere,

882
00:49:14,840 --> 00:49:16,440
taking you somewhere,

883
00:49:16,440 --> 00:49:20,000
the icon becomes almost like a stumbling block.

884
00:49:20,000 --> 00:49:23,080
Like you get caught up in the detail.

885
00:49:23,080 --> 00:49:26,440
Instead of the icon leading you to a deeper mystery,

886
00:49:26,440 --> 00:49:28,440
it just catches your senses and says,

887
00:49:28,440 --> 00:49:30,080
no, you're gonna stay here.

888
00:49:30,080 --> 00:49:31,400
You're not going anywhere else.

889
00:49:31,400 --> 00:49:32,720
Look at all the detail.

890
00:49:32,720 --> 00:49:37,360
Look at all the artistic expression that's included

891
00:49:37,360 --> 00:49:41,120
and all the beautiful detail that's included.

892
00:49:41,120 --> 00:49:45,640
And to be honest, like I heard this before

893
00:49:45,640 --> 00:49:50,360
about the icon of Christ and how the Orthodox icon,

894
00:49:50,360 --> 00:49:53,920
it looks like the proportions are off

895
00:49:53,920 --> 00:49:58,920
and the eyes are different and there's something there.

896
00:49:59,320 --> 00:50:01,360
Why is it the way it is?

897
00:50:01,360 --> 00:50:06,040
Versus when you see something that's like a Western painting,

898
00:50:06,040 --> 00:50:07,720
it's pleasing to the eye.

899
00:50:07,720 --> 00:50:10,600
And both are of the same subject,

900
00:50:10,600 --> 00:50:13,160
but they're doing something different, right?

901
00:50:13,160 --> 00:50:14,720
Yeah, and I think like there's something

902
00:50:14,720 --> 00:50:15,720
to be said about beauty.

903
00:50:15,720 --> 00:50:18,040
Like, liturgy is supposed to be very beautiful.

904
00:50:18,040 --> 00:50:21,480
Liturgy is very beautiful to correct myself,

905
00:50:21,480 --> 00:50:23,880
but like it's designed to be so.

906
00:50:26,320 --> 00:50:30,520
But beauty ultimately

907
00:50:30,520 --> 00:50:34,560
is nothing other than God himself.

908
00:50:34,560 --> 00:50:37,240
Like Gregory of Nyssa says this and Dionysius

909
00:50:37,240 --> 00:50:39,160
and all these great fathers.

910
00:50:41,280 --> 00:50:43,320
That it's not to be removed from God.

911
00:50:43,320 --> 00:50:47,760
And when it becomes self-referential,

912
00:50:50,640 --> 00:50:53,960
it almost becomes an imitation of beauty.

913
00:50:53,960 --> 00:50:55,520
Is it really beautiful even?

914
00:50:55,520 --> 00:51:00,520
And I'm not saying that you can't have icons

915
00:51:00,640 --> 00:51:03,440
that point to Christ in a Western style.

916
00:51:03,440 --> 00:51:06,840
Like there are some beautifully painted

917
00:51:06,840 --> 00:51:10,360
and decorated Western churches in their Western style.

918
00:51:10,360 --> 00:51:11,680
But the problem is in the Coptic Church,

919
00:51:11,680 --> 00:51:16,080
we've sort of, unfortunately, sometimes we forget

920
00:51:17,920 --> 00:51:20,040
how an icon points to Christ.

921
00:51:20,040 --> 00:51:22,680
And we look at the stylistic elements of a Western,

922
00:51:22,680 --> 00:51:23,880
not even a Renaissance painting,

923
00:51:23,880 --> 00:51:26,800
like a badly imitated Baroque painting

924
00:51:27,800 --> 00:51:31,120
with all the extravagant sort of exaggerated movements

925
00:51:31,120 --> 00:51:33,000
and whatever.

926
00:51:33,000 --> 00:51:34,520
It becomes just sort of loud.

927
00:51:35,960 --> 00:51:40,880
When something is loud, it points to itself.

928
00:51:40,880 --> 00:51:43,680
If someone comes in the middle of the church and yells,

929
00:51:45,920 --> 00:51:47,280
actually, I'm sure we have experience of this

930
00:51:47,280 --> 00:51:48,960
as cops all over the place.

931
00:51:48,960 --> 00:51:52,320
When you have a chorus of chanters singing,

932
00:51:52,320 --> 00:51:56,440
you have one guy just really off key or really off beat.

933
00:51:57,320 --> 00:51:58,200
And he's super loud.

934
00:51:58,200 --> 00:51:59,880
He's not like quiet, very loud.

935
00:52:00,880 --> 00:52:02,600
Points to himself.

936
00:52:02,600 --> 00:52:07,600
It highlights the disruption of that otherwise harmonious,

937
00:52:08,520 --> 00:52:09,800
exactly, image.

938
00:52:11,920 --> 00:52:15,120
And I think that's what loud icons do.

939
00:52:15,120 --> 00:52:18,760
They don't point to something else.

940
00:52:18,760 --> 00:52:21,560
Like the whole liturgy is designed to point to God.

941
00:52:21,560 --> 00:52:23,600
I think everyone would agree to this.

942
00:52:23,600 --> 00:52:26,800
But when something is loud and obnoxious

943
00:52:26,800 --> 00:52:29,480
and sort of stands in contradistinction

944
00:52:29,480 --> 00:52:30,840
to the rest of this pattern,

945
00:52:32,760 --> 00:52:34,560
it doesn't point to the thing anymore.

946
00:52:34,560 --> 00:52:37,960
The person singing off key and off beat

947
00:52:37,960 --> 00:52:40,720
isn't pointing to that hymn

948
00:52:40,720 --> 00:52:42,400
that you're recognizing otherwise.

949
00:52:42,400 --> 00:52:43,880
It's something that seems different

950
00:52:43,880 --> 00:52:44,920
than the thing that you're listening.

951
00:52:44,920 --> 00:52:46,840
That's what makes it weird.

952
00:52:46,840 --> 00:52:50,440
For these icons, so to speak,

953
00:52:50,440 --> 00:52:52,920
I use icons simply as images.

954
00:52:58,320 --> 00:52:59,920
Don't point in the same direction

955
00:52:59,920 --> 00:53:02,280
that the rest of the liturgy is pointing anymore.

956
00:53:04,240 --> 00:53:05,680
And it's not just about style.

957
00:53:05,680 --> 00:53:09,840
It's about the way they're organized,

958
00:53:09,840 --> 00:53:10,760
the way they're patterned,

959
00:53:10,760 --> 00:53:12,960
the way they're sort of quote unquote programmed.

960
00:53:14,360 --> 00:53:16,160
You can have badly programmed icons

961
00:53:16,160 --> 00:53:17,760
even in a Coptic style, I think.

962
00:53:17,760 --> 00:53:20,120
So just for reference, when you say

963
00:53:20,120 --> 00:53:22,600
an icon is programmed, what do you mean?

964
00:53:23,280 --> 00:53:25,200
It's designed intentionally.

965
00:53:25,200 --> 00:53:27,080
I think, for instance,

966
00:53:29,920 --> 00:53:31,000
to give some examples,

967
00:53:31,000 --> 00:53:33,000
I think they just help illustrate the point.

968
00:53:33,000 --> 00:53:36,840
Like, oftentimes, again, this is not a rule,

969
00:53:36,840 --> 00:53:38,280
but oftentimes Christ is painted

970
00:53:38,280 --> 00:53:40,240
in Coptic iconography with open eyes

971
00:53:40,240 --> 00:53:43,440
to say, look, despite the fact that

972
00:53:43,440 --> 00:53:46,080
he's obviously dead on a cross, he's alive.

973
00:53:46,080 --> 00:53:46,920
He's alive.

974
00:53:48,920 --> 00:53:51,760
You know, you'll have angels or St. Mary

975
00:53:51,760 --> 00:53:55,040
holding a chalice, catching the blood

976
00:53:55,040 --> 00:53:56,880
and the water from Christ.

977
00:53:56,880 --> 00:53:59,480
So look, he is the Eucharist.

978
00:53:59,480 --> 00:54:00,560
This is programming.

979
00:54:00,560 --> 00:54:03,080
Like, it's not just haphazard artistic sort of

980
00:54:05,280 --> 00:54:06,280
like salad.

981
00:54:08,560 --> 00:54:10,080
We're saying something.

982
00:54:10,080 --> 00:54:12,600
In the same way that we say things rhetorically in text,

983
00:54:12,600 --> 00:54:16,160
we say things rhetorically through visual stimuli.

984
00:54:16,160 --> 00:54:19,280
And the program can encompass the whole church as well,

985
00:54:19,280 --> 00:54:21,000
like all the icons working together.

986
00:54:21,000 --> 00:54:21,840
Exactly.

987
00:54:21,840 --> 00:54:23,840
Saying something, leading you to...

988
00:54:23,840 --> 00:54:24,880
That's what it should be.

989
00:54:24,880 --> 00:54:25,720
Right.

990
00:54:26,680 --> 00:54:28,240
Like, you were there in the conference

991
00:54:30,120 --> 00:54:33,560
that we heard Dr. Ineme speak

992
00:54:33,560 --> 00:54:36,600
about the programming of the Syrian monastery in Egypt,

993
00:54:36,600 --> 00:54:37,680
the Restorian.

994
00:54:37,680 --> 00:54:38,520
That was incredible.

995
00:54:38,520 --> 00:54:40,000
That was beautiful.

996
00:54:40,000 --> 00:54:41,320
And that was obviously programmed.

997
00:54:41,320 --> 00:54:44,280
He just pointed to this whole program of iconography

998
00:54:44,280 --> 00:54:45,960
in the Syrian monastery and how it all

999
00:54:45,960 --> 00:54:48,880
like sort of participates liturgically,

1000
00:54:48,880 --> 00:54:50,280
how it works in the terms of liturgy

1001
00:54:50,280 --> 00:54:52,440
and how all the icons are related to each other

1002
00:54:52,440 --> 00:54:54,520
and they're pointing to this thing.

1003
00:54:54,520 --> 00:54:57,560
It wasn't just a random selection of icons here and there

1004
00:54:57,560 --> 00:54:58,480
just to fill space.

1005
00:54:58,480 --> 00:54:59,320
Exactly.

1006
00:54:59,320 --> 00:55:00,160
They work together.

1007
00:55:00,160 --> 00:55:01,000
They do something together.

1008
00:55:01,000 --> 00:55:01,840
Exactly.

1009
00:55:01,840 --> 00:55:04,320
I know there's also a paper written by Dr. Mehdi Farag

1010
00:55:06,320 --> 00:55:09,040
relating the liturgy of St. Thomas, I believe.

1011
00:55:09,040 --> 00:55:10,680
I think it is the liturgy of St. Thomas,

1012
00:55:10,680 --> 00:55:11,960
which is one of the liturgies

1013
00:55:11,960 --> 00:55:14,200
in the Ithlokion of the White Monastery.

1014
00:55:15,440 --> 00:55:17,160
And otherwise it's in other places,

1015
00:55:17,160 --> 00:55:19,240
but it's one of the liturgies there.

1016
00:55:20,400 --> 00:55:23,240
To the iconographic program in the White Monastery.

1017
00:55:25,640 --> 00:55:28,920
To show like, yeah, it's all like,

1018
00:55:28,920 --> 00:55:30,280
iconography is part of liturgy.

1019
00:55:30,280 --> 00:55:31,840
Right.

1020
00:55:31,840 --> 00:55:34,200
Architecture is part of liturgy.

1021
00:55:34,200 --> 00:55:35,360
Our movements are part of liturgy.

1022
00:55:35,360 --> 00:55:37,320
That's why benches matter.

1023
00:55:37,320 --> 00:55:38,400
Right. Or don't.

1024
00:55:38,400 --> 00:55:41,680
And that's why any of these elements that,

1025
00:55:41,680 --> 00:55:44,200
like a new element that's introduced,

1026
00:55:44,200 --> 00:55:46,400
we always have to think like, how does it work?

1027
00:55:46,400 --> 00:55:48,200
Does it maintain the harmony?

1028
00:55:48,200 --> 00:55:49,640
Does it break the harmony?

1029
00:55:49,640 --> 00:55:51,760
And if so, in what way?

1030
00:55:51,760 --> 00:55:54,560
And this is really important to think about

1031
00:55:54,560 --> 00:55:56,560
before kind of making changes,

1032
00:55:56,560 --> 00:56:00,000
introducing new elements, things like that.

1033
00:56:00,000 --> 00:56:02,320
How does it work with the rest of the elements?

1034
00:56:02,320 --> 00:56:04,080
With the rest of the liturgy?

1035
00:56:04,080 --> 00:56:05,360
What we're trying to do here?

1036
00:56:05,360 --> 00:56:06,560
No, absolutely.

1037
00:56:06,560 --> 00:56:08,920
And it's, and like I mentioned, you know,

1038
00:56:08,920 --> 00:56:13,200
you can have beautiful Western style images, icons,

1039
00:56:14,400 --> 00:56:15,960
even statues, everything.

1040
00:56:15,960 --> 00:56:16,880
You can have that.

1041
00:56:16,880 --> 00:56:21,880
But given the beauty of liturgy,

1042
00:56:22,240 --> 00:56:23,840
given the beauty of liturgy,

1043
00:56:23,840 --> 00:56:24,760
not just Eucharistic liturgy,

1044
00:56:24,760 --> 00:56:26,640
but liturgy in all that the church does,

1045
00:56:26,640 --> 00:56:28,640
everything the church does is liturgy in a sense.

1046
00:56:28,640 --> 00:56:29,480
Right.

1047
00:56:31,240 --> 00:56:32,280
You know, that's why as you come through,

1048
00:56:32,280 --> 00:56:35,840
we say Christ, or God creates a liturgy in the world.

1049
00:56:35,840 --> 00:56:36,800
We're living in liturgy,

1050
00:56:36,800 --> 00:56:38,160
because we are the church and we're living,

1051
00:56:38,160 --> 00:56:40,560
but you know, that's neither you nor there now.

1052
00:56:46,960 --> 00:56:49,120
We live currently today, for instance,

1053
00:56:49,120 --> 00:56:51,080
I am part of the Coptic church.

1054
00:56:51,080 --> 00:56:53,800
So I practice and experience liturgy

1055
00:56:53,800 --> 00:56:56,840
in its Coptic sort of notes.

1056
00:56:59,640 --> 00:57:02,440
It would be weird then to introduce something

1057
00:57:02,440 --> 00:57:07,440
that's not in that same sort of stylistic vocabulary

1058
00:57:09,120 --> 00:57:11,360
in that pattern.

1059
00:57:11,360 --> 00:57:14,600
Like imagine you're listening to Om Kalsoum

1060
00:57:15,600 --> 00:57:17,240
who has beautiful music,

1061
00:57:17,240 --> 00:57:20,320
and then introducing like, I don't know,

1062
00:57:20,320 --> 00:57:22,680
Nat King Cole, like the jazz musician,

1063
00:57:22,680 --> 00:57:23,600
also beautiful music,

1064
00:57:23,600 --> 00:57:24,520
but it would be really weird

1065
00:57:24,520 --> 00:57:27,040
if you try to like play them together.

1066
00:57:27,040 --> 00:57:29,480
Or even just like in a single playlist,

1067
00:57:29,480 --> 00:57:30,560
that would be strange to us.

1068
00:57:30,560 --> 00:57:32,400
Both very beautiful music.

1069
00:57:32,400 --> 00:57:33,240
But it would be weird,

1070
00:57:33,240 --> 00:57:36,520
and it would be very sort of abrupt

1071
00:57:36,520 --> 00:57:40,560
and like takes us aback when we listen,

1072
00:57:40,560 --> 00:57:43,120
when we transition from the one style to the next.

1073
00:57:44,680 --> 00:57:49,680
So I think, yeah, like maybe that's why orthodoxy,

1074
00:57:50,800 --> 00:57:52,600
you know, even the Roman rites,

1075
00:57:55,800 --> 00:57:57,200
but like I think it's highlighted

1076
00:57:57,200 --> 00:57:58,480
in Oriental orthodoxy specifically,

1077
00:57:58,480 --> 00:58:00,720
has so many different styles and tunes

1078
00:58:00,720 --> 00:58:02,400
and ways of doing things.

1079
00:58:04,040 --> 00:58:06,720
Because liturgy is the same.

1080
00:58:06,720 --> 00:58:08,720
It just gets enacted in all these flavors.

1081
00:58:08,720 --> 00:58:13,160
But the problem is when we forget about it,

1082
00:58:13,160 --> 00:58:14,720
when we're enacting,

1083
00:58:14,720 --> 00:58:19,160
when I forget about how iconography fits in this thing

1084
00:58:19,160 --> 00:58:20,320
that I'm enacting,

1085
00:58:20,320 --> 00:58:23,760
I just do it as like a decoration to it,

1086
00:58:23,760 --> 00:58:25,960
as opposed to an integral part of it.

1087
00:58:25,960 --> 00:58:27,720
When really everything is integral to it.

1088
00:58:27,720 --> 00:58:29,280
There's nothing that's not integral to liturgy.

1089
00:58:29,280 --> 00:58:30,920
There's nothing superficial, there's nothing aesthetic.

1090
00:58:30,920 --> 00:58:35,360
It's all like designed to make you an active participant

1091
00:58:35,360 --> 00:58:37,880
of what is happening at this moment.

1092
00:58:37,880 --> 00:58:41,800
Yeah, even aesthetics are part of the, you know,

1093
00:58:41,800 --> 00:58:45,600
I think it's a completely like ridiculous distinction

1094
00:58:45,600 --> 00:58:47,080
between like when we asked like,

1095
00:58:47,080 --> 00:58:48,720
oh, is it really form or function?

1096
00:58:48,720 --> 00:58:49,560
Right.

1097
00:58:49,560 --> 00:58:51,680
Like form functions.

1098
00:58:51,680 --> 00:58:54,160
Yeah, it's yes and it's both.

1099
00:58:54,160 --> 00:58:56,920
Yeah, like form is totally functional.

1100
00:58:56,920 --> 00:58:59,640
Like that's why the father would say like,

1101
00:58:59,640 --> 00:59:02,120
look at creation and you'll know God, you know?

1102
00:59:03,520 --> 00:59:08,120
It's unfortunate because we take these things for granted

1103
00:59:08,120 --> 00:59:10,920
and we don't really take the time to criticize them

1104
00:59:10,920 --> 00:59:12,760
or think about whether they're true or not.

1105
00:59:12,760 --> 00:59:13,800
I don't think they're true.

1106
00:59:13,800 --> 00:59:17,560
I think if I go into an unfinished basement,

1107
00:59:17,560 --> 00:59:19,920
I'm gonna have a very different experience

1108
00:59:19,920 --> 00:59:23,800
from when I go into like, you know, like beds, you know,

1109
00:59:23,800 --> 00:59:26,400
the rocky mountains and just walk through there.

1110
00:59:26,400 --> 00:59:27,760
It's a completely different experience

1111
00:59:27,760 --> 00:59:31,080
and that speaks to the functional difference.

1112
00:59:31,080 --> 00:59:31,920
Right.

1113
00:59:31,920 --> 00:59:33,320
Like it functioned differently on me

1114
00:59:33,320 --> 00:59:34,520
and I experienced things differently,

1115
00:59:34,520 --> 00:59:36,120
I appreciated things differently.

1116
00:59:37,280 --> 00:59:41,800
I was speaking with a friend, his name is Joe.

1117
00:59:42,720 --> 00:59:44,800
And you know, he was reading this book,

1118
00:59:44,800 --> 00:59:47,400
I forget what it was called, but it speaks about, you know,

1119
00:59:47,400 --> 00:59:52,200
how the gifts, for example, are often very,

1120
00:59:52,200 --> 00:59:56,880
they're not a quote, to contradict what we just said,

1121
00:59:56,880 --> 00:59:57,720
not really though.

1122
00:59:59,800 --> 01:00:00,960
They're not really functional, you know,

1123
01:00:00,960 --> 01:00:02,800
like you don't buy somebody socks.

1124
01:00:02,800 --> 01:00:05,000
Like if I'm gonna get my wife like a Rolanda a gift,

1125
01:00:05,000 --> 01:00:07,280
I'm not gonna get her like a pack of socks.

1126
01:00:07,280 --> 01:00:10,080
I'm not gonna get her like, I don't know,

1127
01:00:10,080 --> 01:00:11,360
a really cool vacuum.

1128
01:00:11,360 --> 01:00:12,520
I'm not gonna get her like things

1129
01:00:12,520 --> 01:00:13,760
that are quote unquote functional.

1130
01:00:13,760 --> 01:00:15,560
I'm gonna get her something that's beautiful.

1131
01:00:15,560 --> 01:00:18,120
I'm gonna get her a stone that she can't use,

1132
01:00:18,120 --> 01:00:19,960
like a really shiny stone that she won't do anything with.

1133
01:00:19,960 --> 01:00:22,360
I'm gonna get her like a bunch of flowers

1134
01:00:22,360 --> 01:00:24,360
that are gonna die in like a week.

1135
01:00:24,360 --> 01:00:25,320
I'm gonna get her things

1136
01:00:25,320 --> 01:00:27,320
that she won't be able to do things with.

1137
01:00:28,960 --> 01:00:31,240
Because the expression of love shows us

1138
01:00:31,240 --> 01:00:33,920
that you're worth wasting on.

1139
01:00:33,920 --> 01:00:35,640
Right, I see what you mean.

1140
01:00:35,640 --> 01:00:37,680
And in a sense that makes it functional.

1141
01:00:39,800 --> 01:00:42,800
I don't like the word because of how we scandalized it,

1142
01:00:46,200 --> 01:00:49,760
that function became devoid of beauty, devoid of form.

1143
01:00:49,760 --> 01:00:52,640
But in a sense, the flowers become functional.

1144
01:00:52,640 --> 01:00:55,240
It expresses that I love her.

1145
01:00:55,240 --> 01:00:58,920
It expresses that she's worth things that I can give her

1146
01:00:58,920 --> 01:01:03,040
that she won't otherwise need or use.

1147
01:01:05,560 --> 01:01:07,880
And I think in a sense, the aesthetics,

1148
01:01:07,880 --> 01:01:11,200
the beauty of liturgy are an expression of this.

1149
01:01:11,200 --> 01:01:13,840
We're like sort of wasting quote unquote on God.

1150
01:01:14,880 --> 01:01:16,080
We're like giving him flowers

1151
01:01:16,080 --> 01:01:19,040
and giving him like diamond rings and whatever.

1152
01:01:19,040 --> 01:01:21,160
Really, he's the one giving us all these things.

1153
01:01:21,160 --> 01:01:23,280
That's why we say, we offer it to you from what is yours.

1154
01:01:23,280 --> 01:01:25,640
It's really, these are the things that he's given us.

1155
01:01:25,640 --> 01:01:27,960
And we're sort of, when I give my wife the flowers

1156
01:01:27,960 --> 01:01:31,160
and she puts them in a vase in the house or something.

1157
01:01:31,160 --> 01:01:32,880
And we are drawn in by that beauty.

1158
01:01:34,040 --> 01:01:37,480
It's not just something that's there and it's wasted

1159
01:01:37,480 --> 01:01:39,960
and it's just something that has no function.

1160
01:01:39,960 --> 01:01:41,360
We're drawn in by that.

1161
01:01:41,360 --> 01:01:43,360
And the reason we're drawn in by that

1162
01:01:43,360 --> 01:01:46,600
should alert us to the fact that we're drawn in by that.

1163
01:01:46,600 --> 01:01:49,480
You feel like there's something different here

1164
01:01:49,480 --> 01:01:52,760
when you experience that majestic scene

1165
01:01:52,760 --> 01:01:53,920
in the Rocky Mountain.

1166
01:01:53,920 --> 01:01:56,920
You look and you say, wow, this is beautiful.

1167
01:01:56,920 --> 01:02:01,200
The creation and the work of God, this is amazing.

1168
01:02:01,200 --> 01:02:04,360
We forget that we're in God's image and likeness sometimes.

1169
01:02:04,360 --> 01:02:07,920
We forget that the things, when I appreciate beauty,

1170
01:02:07,920 --> 01:02:09,720
it's because I'm in God's image.

1171
01:02:09,720 --> 01:02:12,720
I forget that the pattern of me giving my wife the flowers

1172
01:02:12,720 --> 01:02:14,440
and her decorating the house with it.

1173
01:02:14,440 --> 01:02:18,480
I forget that this relationship is really an icon of God.

1174
01:02:18,480 --> 01:02:21,440
I forget that this is, that it's real,

1175
01:02:21,440 --> 01:02:23,720
that I'm really created in His image.

1176
01:02:23,720 --> 01:02:27,440
That what I do in church really should reflect the same thing.

1177
01:02:27,440 --> 01:02:30,360
Like we forget that He puts all these seeds of Himself

1178
01:02:30,360 --> 01:02:34,360
in all things, in all creation to show us who He is.

1179
01:02:34,360 --> 01:02:38,600
Like, you know, like Gregory of Nyssa says,

1180
01:02:38,600 --> 01:02:40,560
what God is, this is what He does.

1181
01:02:41,800 --> 01:02:43,760
This tells us something that, you know,

1182
01:02:43,760 --> 01:02:45,840
what He does is in fact He creates.

1183
01:02:45,840 --> 01:02:48,560
So when we see His creation, we should see who He is.

1184
01:02:48,560 --> 01:02:49,440
It reveals Him.

1185
01:02:49,440 --> 01:02:50,960
Yeah, and we are His creation.

1186
01:02:50,960 --> 01:02:53,080
Like we are His creation.

1187
01:02:53,080 --> 01:02:55,160
Not just that, we're sort of the crown of creation

1188
01:02:55,160 --> 01:02:58,400
that exists as spiritual and physical

1189
01:02:58,400 --> 01:03:01,000
and takes all these things together and offers it to us.

1190
01:03:01,000 --> 01:03:02,960
So beauty, truth and goodness.

1191
01:03:03,840 --> 01:03:05,240
Can they be separated?

1192
01:03:05,240 --> 01:03:07,000
Do they work together?

1193
01:03:07,000 --> 01:03:08,760
Are they all one and the same?

1194
01:03:08,760 --> 01:03:10,240
They're the same thing.

1195
01:03:10,240 --> 01:03:11,800
It's the good, the truth, the beautiful.

1196
01:03:11,800 --> 01:03:15,120
Yeah, you know, and this is so, I mean,

1197
01:03:15,120 --> 01:03:17,840
they borrow obviously from Hellenic philosophy,

1198
01:03:17,840 --> 01:03:19,000
but this is true.

1199
01:03:19,000 --> 01:03:20,440
Like the fathers would look at it and say,

1200
01:03:20,440 --> 01:03:22,320
well, like, you know, God is truth, God is beauty,

1201
01:03:22,320 --> 01:03:24,320
God is goodness, He's good itself.

1202
01:03:24,320 --> 01:03:28,880
You know, they look at the verse from Exodus,

1203
01:03:28,880 --> 01:03:30,320
like when God reveals Himself to Moses,

1204
01:03:30,320 --> 01:03:32,080
as I am who I am, and they say,

1205
01:03:32,080 --> 01:03:33,200
well, like, yeah, that's what it is.

1206
01:03:33,200 --> 01:03:36,680
Like He's being, He's goodness, He's truth, He's beauty.

1207
01:03:38,360 --> 01:03:40,880
I think one of the people who fleshes out the most

1208
01:03:40,880 --> 01:03:44,760
is the Dynasius, like, you know, the Dynasian text.

1209
01:03:46,560 --> 01:03:48,560
Suda, Dynasius is gonna be technical.

1210
01:03:48,560 --> 01:03:50,280
Probably a sixth century author

1211
01:03:50,280 --> 01:03:52,280
who probably knew Severus, people say.

1212
01:03:54,720 --> 01:03:56,200
He fleshes it out so much and I hate,

1213
01:03:56,200 --> 01:03:57,920
like it bothers me so much when people try to like,

1214
01:03:57,920 --> 01:03:59,880
oh, look, you know, look at his philosophy,

1215
01:03:59,880 --> 01:04:02,480
look at really how Hellenic or, you know,

1216
01:04:02,480 --> 01:04:05,640
whatever he is or, I'm like, okay, sure.

1217
01:04:05,640 --> 01:04:08,520
Like, okay, like he took the Greek language

1218
01:04:08,520 --> 01:04:10,080
to express these truths,

1219
01:04:10,080 --> 01:04:12,320
but does that make them any less real?

1220
01:04:13,960 --> 01:04:15,920
You know, when I speak in English about God today,

1221
01:04:15,920 --> 01:04:18,360
is it less real that I'm using sort of

1222
01:04:21,160 --> 01:04:23,800
metaphors and analogies from the world that we live in?

1223
01:04:23,800 --> 01:04:26,880
Like, I don't know, it would be weird if like,

1224
01:04:26,880 --> 01:04:30,520
in 1500 years someone does like a study on how,

1225
01:04:30,520 --> 01:04:33,040
how affected am I by like, you know,

1226
01:04:33,040 --> 01:04:36,080
the English language or something, it would be kind of strange.

1227
01:04:36,080 --> 01:04:38,640
And you know, it's these categories of thought

1228
01:04:38,640 --> 01:04:41,640
that are brought into communion with the revelation,

1229
01:04:41,640 --> 01:04:44,800
the biblical revelation with scripture and with the tradition.

1230
01:04:44,800 --> 01:04:46,520
And that's how it function,

1231
01:04:46,520 --> 01:04:49,360
like it's brought into conversation with it.

1232
01:04:49,360 --> 01:04:52,480
The Father's, you know, using a co-optic and expression,

1233
01:04:52,480 --> 01:04:56,320
changing its meaning, changing its use and using it, you know.

1234
01:04:56,320 --> 01:04:59,080
Like, I can't speak about God, I can't pray liturgy,

1235
01:04:59,080 --> 01:05:01,720
I can't do anything outside of my culture, really.

1236
01:05:01,720 --> 01:05:04,240
Because like, what does culture encompass?

1237
01:05:04,240 --> 01:05:05,280
It encompasses language,

1238
01:05:05,280 --> 01:05:07,880
it encompasses like patterns of thought,

1239
01:05:07,880 --> 01:05:12,880
it encompasses like, you know, all sorts of things.

1240
01:05:13,160 --> 01:05:16,200
All the sorts of things that I will use to pray.

1241
01:05:16,200 --> 01:05:19,240
If I remove culture, I remove language, for instance.

1242
01:05:19,240 --> 01:05:20,120
How am I gonna pray?

1243
01:05:20,120 --> 01:05:23,640
Like, I remove the incarnational aspect of...

1244
01:05:23,640 --> 01:05:25,320
Then worship becomes, you know, yeah.

1245
01:05:25,320 --> 01:05:27,160
Intellectual, it becomes a thing that's in my mind.

1246
01:05:27,160 --> 01:05:28,600
It's like something foreign, something alien,

1247
01:05:28,600 --> 01:05:30,200
something that's not incarnational.

1248
01:05:30,200 --> 01:05:31,040
Right.

1249
01:05:31,040 --> 01:05:31,880
Absolutely.

1250
01:05:31,880 --> 01:05:35,480
I like, of course, of course he used the language

1251
01:05:35,480 --> 01:05:37,280
that he used, of course I use the language that I use,

1252
01:05:37,280 --> 01:05:38,120
of course.

1253
01:05:38,120 --> 01:05:40,960
You know, in 500 years, if...

1254
01:05:44,400 --> 01:05:48,720
You know, orthodoxy goes into some like unknown place,

1255
01:05:48,720 --> 01:05:50,640
it's gonna incarnate in the same way.

1256
01:05:50,640 --> 01:05:51,680
Like, that's why, for instance,

1257
01:05:51,680 --> 01:05:54,000
you have all these missions that go to Africa from Egypt,

1258
01:05:54,000 --> 01:05:57,080
or like, you know, the southern places in Africa from Egypt,

1259
01:05:57,080 --> 01:05:58,200
and they pray in their languages,

1260
01:05:58,200 --> 01:05:59,600
and they have the drums and stuff and liturgies,

1261
01:05:59,600 --> 01:06:01,560
and it's perfectly fine.

1262
01:06:01,560 --> 01:06:04,440
Because it incarnate in the culture in which they live.

1263
01:06:04,440 --> 01:06:07,440
I was just there recently in Kenya with Mbabulis,

1264
01:06:07,440 --> 01:06:10,880
and the liturgy was, I think, seven, eight hours,

1265
01:06:10,880 --> 01:06:13,200
and the entire time, you know,

1266
01:06:13,200 --> 01:06:15,720
the energy level is like right at max,

1267
01:06:15,720 --> 01:06:18,520
and, you know, no one taking a break, no one, right?

1268
01:06:18,520 --> 01:06:20,880
It was just, it goes on,

1269
01:06:20,880 --> 01:06:23,880
and people are in full participation,

1270
01:06:24,760 --> 01:06:26,280
and there is no one watching,

1271
01:06:26,280 --> 01:06:28,840
there's no one just sitting and observing what's like,

1272
01:06:28,840 --> 01:06:32,680
except, of course, for the people who came from Canada,

1273
01:06:32,680 --> 01:06:36,880
from abroad, they're just in awe of all that is happening,

1274
01:06:36,880 --> 01:06:39,080
and to see this level of participation

1275
01:06:39,080 --> 01:06:41,200
for that amount of time, whereas here,

1276
01:06:41,200 --> 01:06:44,920
like, if the liturgy goes over time by like 15 minutes,

1277
01:06:44,920 --> 01:06:46,120
we started getting looks like,

1278
01:06:46,120 --> 01:06:48,640
I'm gonna like, yo, that's 15 minutes,

1279
01:06:48,640 --> 01:06:50,560
you better play next week.

1280
01:06:50,560 --> 01:06:53,280
It's like, we expect liturgy to be 15 minutes less,

1281
01:06:53,280 --> 01:06:55,080
because this week, we're gonna be over.

1282
01:06:56,560 --> 01:06:57,840
Oh my goodness.

1283
01:06:57,840 --> 01:07:00,880
And, you know, on days like, you know, Good Friday,

1284
01:07:00,880 --> 01:07:04,080
and we have to be cognizant of the time,

1285
01:07:04,080 --> 01:07:05,680
we don't want it to be, you know,

1286
01:07:06,680 --> 01:07:10,160
that's why I have like this running joke with the deacons,

1287
01:07:10,160 --> 01:07:12,040
like, we have a starting time,

1288
01:07:12,920 --> 01:07:16,720
and then we end when we end, we'll say all the hymns,

1289
01:07:16,720 --> 01:07:18,840
and we'll say them, you know, at a good rhythm,

1290
01:07:18,840 --> 01:07:20,520
not too slow, not too fast,

1291
01:07:20,520 --> 01:07:23,520
a good rhythm where we can all participate,

1292
01:07:23,520 --> 01:07:25,360
and at the same time, like,

1293
01:07:25,360 --> 01:07:28,240
we're not worshiping to the clock,

1294
01:07:28,240 --> 01:07:30,280
like, the clock is an afterthought,

1295
01:07:30,280 --> 01:07:32,520
like, just be in the moment,

1296
01:07:32,520 --> 01:07:35,000
don't worry about like, am I on time, am I too early,

1297
01:07:35,000 --> 01:07:35,960
am I too late,

1298
01:07:36,800 --> 01:07:39,960
am I, you know, starting, you know, ninth hour,

1299
01:07:39,960 --> 01:07:43,120
a bit too late, or too early, or this,

1300
01:07:43,120 --> 01:07:45,560
and it takes you out of worship,

1301
01:07:45,560 --> 01:07:49,160
it takes you out of the liturgy, it takes you out of that.

1302
01:07:49,160 --> 01:07:50,680
I stopped wearing my watch, to be honest,

1303
01:07:50,680 --> 01:07:51,560
for that particular reason,

1304
01:07:51,560 --> 01:07:53,360
I found myself in church sometimes looking at my watch,

1305
01:07:53,360 --> 01:07:56,920
and I'm like, there's no, what do I have to do?

1306
01:07:56,920 --> 01:08:00,560
What's so important that I have next, it's Sunday, like, I'm off.

1307
01:08:00,560 --> 01:08:03,080
What am I so behind on?

1308
01:08:03,080 --> 01:08:04,440
Why do I need to know the time?

1309
01:08:04,440 --> 01:08:06,000
Why do I need to know when we started the gospel,

1310
01:08:06,000 --> 01:08:08,160
or whatever, how long of a sermon was,

1311
01:08:08,160 --> 01:08:09,640
what did that benefit me?

1312
01:08:10,800 --> 01:08:12,440
In fact, it didn't benefit at all,

1313
01:08:12,440 --> 01:08:13,880
in fact, it actually took away from me.

1314
01:08:13,880 --> 01:08:14,880
It takes away, right?

1315
01:08:14,880 --> 01:08:18,880
But it's hard, it's hard to let go of that, like,

1316
01:08:18,880 --> 01:08:20,760
you know, you step into the liturgy,

1317
01:08:20,760 --> 01:08:23,960
you step into church, and it's different,

1318
01:08:23,960 --> 01:08:27,120
like, it's a break in the normal flow of things

1319
01:08:27,120 --> 01:08:28,840
that you have throughout the week,

1320
01:08:28,840 --> 01:08:32,560
and it's this encounter with Christ.

1321
01:08:32,560 --> 01:08:34,960
And then you look at him and straight in the eyes,

1322
01:08:34,960 --> 01:08:39,120
and you tell him, you know what, I have no practice,

1323
01:08:39,120 --> 01:08:43,600
I have activities, I have to go, you don't do that.

1324
01:08:43,600 --> 01:08:46,880
So, but it's hard to get out of that mode of, you know,

1325
01:08:49,000 --> 01:08:52,600
Kronos and getting into the Kairos type of mode,

1326
01:08:52,600 --> 01:08:55,800
and just stopping everything, like I'm here,

1327
01:08:55,800 --> 01:08:58,920
being in the moment, present in this moment, fully,

1328
01:08:58,920 --> 01:09:01,760
not just, you know, part of me is here,

1329
01:09:01,760 --> 01:09:04,000
but another part of me, like, I'm distracted

1330
01:09:04,000 --> 01:09:05,800
by a million other thoughts and all the things,

1331
01:09:05,800 --> 01:09:07,080
and all of the responsibilities,

1332
01:09:07,080 --> 01:09:09,840
and all the cares and worries, and, you know,

1333
01:09:09,840 --> 01:09:13,240
I'm bringing them all to throw at the feet of Christ,

1334
01:09:13,240 --> 01:09:15,520
but at the same time, I'm still keeping them,

1335
01:09:15,520 --> 01:09:18,880
I'm holding onto them, and I hold onto them so tight

1336
01:09:18,880 --> 01:09:20,640
that it just takes me out of the liturgy,

1337
01:09:20,640 --> 01:09:23,600
because I'm just so focused on everything else

1338
01:09:23,600 --> 01:09:27,040
that's happening before and after and outside of the liturgy.

1339
01:09:27,040 --> 01:09:29,240
Yeah, and we know this intuitively, you know what I mean?

1340
01:09:29,240 --> 01:09:31,040
Like if I ever go on a date with my wife,

1341
01:09:31,040 --> 01:09:32,760
and like I start looking at the time,

1342
01:09:32,760 --> 01:09:33,600
I'm like, oh, of course.

1343
01:09:33,600 --> 01:09:34,600
When, not if.

1344
01:09:34,600 --> 01:09:37,600
When I go on a date with my wife?

1345
01:09:37,600 --> 01:09:38,440
When?

1346
01:09:38,440 --> 01:09:39,840
That's what I meant, that's what I meant.

1347
01:09:39,840 --> 01:09:40,680
Of course, of course.

1348
01:09:40,680 --> 01:09:41,520
Is that what I said?

1349
01:09:41,520 --> 01:09:42,360
Is that what I said?

1350
01:09:42,360 --> 01:09:45,600
Why did I go on a date with my wife?

1351
01:09:45,600 --> 01:09:46,680
And I, I-

1352
01:09:46,680 --> 01:09:47,520
Rookie mistake.

1353
01:09:47,520 --> 01:09:51,960
Yeah, if I start looking at the watch.

1354
01:09:51,960 --> 01:09:53,440
Can you imagine, you know, you're on a date

1355
01:09:53,440 --> 01:09:56,400
and you start looking at your watch, it's, what is this?

1356
01:09:56,400 --> 01:09:59,480
We didn't start the, I don't know, the dinner, yeah,

1357
01:09:59,480 --> 01:10:00,920
we're gonna be late.

1358
01:10:00,920 --> 01:10:02,240
Imagine, imagine I did that.

1359
01:10:02,240 --> 01:10:03,080
Of course.

1360
01:10:03,080 --> 01:10:04,680
And she's loving and great,

1361
01:10:04,680 --> 01:10:07,440
and she wouldn't even bat an eye because she's incredible,

1362
01:10:07,440 --> 01:10:12,000
but colloquially we speak of it,

1363
01:10:12,000 --> 01:10:13,840
and people would be like, oh my goodness,

1364
01:10:13,840 --> 01:10:14,840
how could he do this?

1365
01:10:14,840 --> 01:10:16,400
If somebody's sitting on the table next to us,

1366
01:10:16,400 --> 01:10:18,040
like, what does he have?

1367
01:10:18,040 --> 01:10:20,040
You remember when, you know, there was a,

1368
01:10:21,080 --> 01:10:22,480
there was a joke going around,

1369
01:10:22,480 --> 01:10:24,480
like when Morsi was president in Egypt,

1370
01:10:24,480 --> 01:10:26,600
and he went to Germany to ask for money,

1371
01:10:26,600 --> 01:10:29,400
and he started looking at the clock, at his watch,

1372
01:10:29,400 --> 01:10:30,920
and there was like all these memes that came up,

1373
01:10:30,920 --> 01:10:31,760
like, what do you have to do?

1374
01:10:31,760 --> 01:10:32,600
Like, are you busy?

1375
01:10:32,600 --> 01:10:34,600
Are you, like, and we make,

1376
01:10:34,600 --> 01:10:36,520
and we understand this intuitively.

1377
01:10:36,520 --> 01:10:38,560
We understand that this is ridiculous,

1378
01:10:38,560 --> 01:10:40,200
but like, we come out on the noon,

1379
01:10:40,200 --> 01:10:41,840
forget all about this, and we do it.

1380
01:10:41,840 --> 01:10:42,680
I was reading this book-

1381
01:10:42,680 --> 01:10:44,080
But it's the force of habit, right?

1382
01:10:44,080 --> 01:10:47,120
Yeah, but for some reason,

1383
01:10:47,120 --> 01:10:48,680
it only takes over in liturgy.

1384
01:10:48,680 --> 01:10:50,360
It doesn't take over on my date with my wife,

1385
01:10:50,360 --> 01:10:51,480
doesn't take over.

1386
01:10:51,480 --> 01:10:53,760
Maybe it takes over when I meet with the German,

1387
01:10:53,760 --> 01:10:55,840
I don't know, lady, but,

1388
01:10:56,760 --> 01:10:58,480
but it doesn't take over otherwise.

1389
01:10:58,480 --> 01:11:02,240
It just takes over, for some reason, in liturgy,

1390
01:11:02,240 --> 01:11:04,680
and I was reading this book by Mr. Paul Martin Paulus

1391
01:11:04,680 --> 01:11:07,240
Margergourios, who's an Indian Orthodox,

1392
01:11:07,240 --> 01:11:11,440
like Molankara bishop, who passed away,

1393
01:11:11,440 --> 01:11:15,080
and he says, and the beginning of the book

1394
01:11:15,080 --> 01:11:16,800
really like took me aback, and he says,

1395
01:11:16,800 --> 01:11:19,320
we don't go to liturgy to benefit.

1396
01:11:19,320 --> 01:11:20,160
And I was very scandalous.

1397
01:11:20,160 --> 01:11:21,000
What do you mean?

1398
01:11:21,000 --> 01:11:23,040
Like, yes, we do go to liturgy to benefit,

1399
01:11:23,040 --> 01:11:24,680
but for all the small gregarious.

1400
01:11:26,320 --> 01:11:29,280
He says, no, no, we don't go to benefit.

1401
01:11:29,280 --> 01:11:33,240
Imagine you go on, like, he doesn't say this,

1402
01:11:33,240 --> 01:11:34,880
but this is how I sort of internalize it,

1403
01:11:34,880 --> 01:11:36,760
but the pericope is mine.

1404
01:11:36,760 --> 01:11:38,720
He didn't say this, but imagine,

1405
01:11:38,720 --> 01:11:43,000
I go on a date with my wife, and I tell her,

1406
01:11:43,000 --> 01:11:46,600
hey, I'm here because it's, I'm in it for me, you know?

1407
01:11:46,600 --> 01:11:47,880
This is for me.

1408
01:11:47,880 --> 01:11:49,920
I'm here because, whatever.

1409
01:11:51,720 --> 01:11:53,120
I don't know what, you know?

1410
01:11:55,120 --> 01:11:56,360
I'm in it for a free dinner or something.

1411
01:11:56,360 --> 01:11:58,920
You're gonna pay for me today, I'm in it for whatever.

1412
01:12:00,560 --> 01:12:02,520
Or if she tells me, I'm in it for a free dinner,

1413
01:12:02,520 --> 01:12:03,880
it will be very strange.

1414
01:12:03,880 --> 01:12:05,040
Like, what do you mean?

1415
01:12:06,840 --> 01:12:07,680
Right?

1416
01:12:07,680 --> 01:12:10,520
I'm in it, like, we're not in liturgy for the benefits.

1417
01:12:10,520 --> 01:12:13,120
We're actually in liturgy to love.

1418
01:12:13,120 --> 01:12:14,240
It's the complete opposite.

1419
01:12:14,240 --> 01:12:15,560
I'm not in it to benefit something.

1420
01:12:15,560 --> 01:12:17,600
I'm in it to give myself.

1421
01:12:17,600 --> 01:12:19,880
I'm not in it to, like, to give my time,

1422
01:12:19,880 --> 01:12:23,640
to give my effort, to give my, like,

1423
01:12:23,640 --> 01:12:27,280
sort of the little that I have to give it,

1424
01:12:27,280 --> 01:12:28,240
because that's what love is.

1425
01:12:28,240 --> 01:12:30,360
It's not to gain something, it's not whatever.

1426
01:12:30,360 --> 01:12:32,880
It happens that God is so generous and loving

1427
01:12:32,880 --> 01:12:35,280
and gives himself completely to us,

1428
01:12:35,280 --> 01:12:36,640
and really the exchange that happens

1429
01:12:36,640 --> 01:12:38,160
when He loves us and we love Him,

1430
01:12:38,160 --> 01:12:39,680
we're the ones really benefiting.

1431
01:12:39,680 --> 01:12:40,840
But I'm not there to benefit.

1432
01:12:40,840 --> 01:12:42,440
I'm there, He does give it to me.

1433
01:12:42,440 --> 01:12:44,320
He gives me all that He is all the time,

1434
01:12:44,320 --> 01:12:46,640
eternally, in Keros, and on the cross.

1435
01:12:46,640 --> 01:12:49,600
He did the liturgy and He gave Himself to us.

1436
01:12:49,600 --> 01:12:50,680
But I'm there to love.

1437
01:12:53,160 --> 01:12:56,920
And then I look at my watch.

1438
01:12:56,920 --> 01:12:57,760
And then you look at your watch.

1439
01:12:57,760 --> 01:13:00,880
In the midst of all of this, all this is happening.

1440
01:13:00,880 --> 01:13:03,400
And then, you know, for some reason,

1441
01:13:03,400 --> 01:13:07,960
it's almost like, you know, that habit of checking your phone.

1442
01:13:07,960 --> 01:13:09,480
You check it every two seconds.

1443
01:13:09,480 --> 01:13:10,320
Yeah.

1444
01:13:10,320 --> 01:13:13,080
And it becomes like this stumbling block.

1445
01:13:13,080 --> 01:13:14,200
Like you're in the liturgy,

1446
01:13:14,200 --> 01:13:17,040
but this little devil in your pocket

1447
01:13:17,040 --> 01:13:17,880
keeps taking you out.

1448
01:13:17,880 --> 01:13:21,600
It's like, hey, you haven't checked me in three seconds.

1449
01:13:21,600 --> 01:13:22,440
Check again.

1450
01:13:22,440 --> 01:13:23,280
Maybe something happened.

1451
01:13:23,280 --> 01:13:25,520
Maybe someone sent a notification.

1452
01:13:25,520 --> 01:13:27,840
Some app is telling you something.

1453
01:13:27,840 --> 01:13:29,840
And if we were to take this sort of idea

1454
01:13:29,840 --> 01:13:32,960
of what's symbolically real happening in liturgy,

1455
01:13:32,960 --> 01:13:33,920
what's happening in liturgy?

1456
01:13:33,920 --> 01:13:35,880
Like it's the cross and resurrection of Christ.

1457
01:13:35,880 --> 01:13:39,600
Imagine, you know, I'm at the cross.

1458
01:13:39,600 --> 01:13:41,160
Christ is being crucified.

1459
01:13:41,160 --> 01:13:42,360
And I'm like looking at my watch.

1460
01:13:42,360 --> 01:13:43,200
I'm like, I'll manage.

1461
01:13:43,200 --> 01:13:44,040
I have a brunch.

1462
01:13:44,040 --> 01:13:47,840
I mean, after like Christ, like, come on, like, hurry up.

1463
01:13:47,840 --> 01:13:49,280
I have a brunch to go after.

1464
01:13:49,280 --> 01:13:50,120
I have like, I don't know,

1465
01:13:50,120 --> 01:13:53,320
to see my friend after my family or whatever.

1466
01:13:53,320 --> 01:13:54,920
Like how lunatic would that be?

1467
01:13:54,920 --> 01:13:57,680
Like we look at scriptures and we're surprised.

1468
01:13:57,680 --> 01:13:59,320
Like, how could they not recognize Him?

1469
01:13:59,320 --> 01:14:01,840
How could they be so foolish

1470
01:14:01,840 --> 01:14:05,240
when the disciples are in sort of the synoptic gospels?

1471
01:14:05,240 --> 01:14:07,920
Like, how could they be so foolish?

1472
01:14:07,920 --> 01:14:10,520
And then I do this exact same thing in liturgy.

1473
01:14:10,520 --> 01:14:12,800
You know, someone, a spiritual advisor was telling me,

1474
01:14:12,800 --> 01:14:17,360
you know, if you don't recognize Christ on the altar,

1475
01:14:17,360 --> 01:14:18,360
you would not have recognized,

1476
01:14:18,360 --> 01:14:19,200
you would have done the same.

1477
01:14:19,200 --> 01:14:21,760
You would have never recognized Him 2000 years ago,

1478
01:14:21,760 --> 01:14:24,040
walking around Judea.

1479
01:14:24,040 --> 01:14:25,400
Like, don't kid yourself.

1480
01:14:25,400 --> 01:14:27,920
Like every week He's on the cross and you're on your phone

1481
01:14:27,920 --> 01:14:29,720
or you're looking at your watch and you're doing whatever.

1482
01:14:29,720 --> 01:14:33,040
Of course, like the thing that you think they're ridiculous

1483
01:14:33,040 --> 01:14:36,440
for, you're doing that every single week, not just once.

1484
01:14:36,440 --> 01:14:39,440
And it's the disciples, they recognized Him

1485
01:14:39,440 --> 01:14:41,000
when He broke the bread.

1486
01:14:41,000 --> 01:14:41,920
Exactly.

1487
01:14:41,920 --> 01:14:44,240
It happened like at the breaking of the bread,

1488
01:14:44,240 --> 01:14:46,280
the disciples of Immo, at the breaking of the bread,

1489
01:14:46,280 --> 01:14:47,640
they're like, it's Him.

1490
01:14:47,640 --> 01:14:48,480
Yeah.

1491
01:14:48,480 --> 01:14:50,080
And then He vanishes.

1492
01:14:50,080 --> 01:14:51,080
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1493
01:14:51,080 --> 01:14:54,760
So keep your gaze on Him, keep looking at Him.

1494
01:14:54,760 --> 01:14:55,600
Right. Yes.

1495
01:14:55,600 --> 01:14:56,840
Imagine they're on their phones.

1496
01:14:56,840 --> 01:14:58,320
Imagine, yeah.

1497
01:14:58,320 --> 01:14:59,160
And then they say to each other,

1498
01:14:59,160 --> 01:15:02,960
like weren't our hearts burning when He was speaking?

1499
01:15:02,960 --> 01:15:04,800
But if they were on their phone,

1500
01:15:04,800 --> 01:15:07,560
if they had whatever distraction they were into,

1501
01:15:07,560 --> 01:15:11,840
if they were giving themselves to those distractions,

1502
01:15:11,840 --> 01:15:12,960
would their hearts be burning?

1503
01:15:12,960 --> 01:15:14,000
Would they experience it?

1504
01:15:14,000 --> 01:15:15,280
Would they miss out on the experience?

1505
01:15:15,280 --> 01:15:17,520
Would the experience be lessened somehow?

1506
01:15:17,520 --> 01:15:20,320
And in fact, what happens is while they were walking,

1507
01:15:20,320 --> 01:15:21,800
like socializing and doing whatever

1508
01:15:21,800 --> 01:15:23,400
and not doing the Eucharist,

1509
01:15:23,400 --> 01:15:24,680
that's when they didn't recognize Him.

1510
01:15:24,680 --> 01:15:26,560
It's only when they stopped doing that,

1511
01:15:26,560 --> 01:15:29,920
when they stopped being on the sort of proverbial phones,

1512
01:15:29,920 --> 01:15:31,280
that's when they really recognized Him.

1513
01:15:31,280 --> 01:15:34,200
That's when they stopped looking down on the phone.

1514
01:15:34,200 --> 01:15:37,200
It's weird that looking down on our phone

1515
01:15:37,200 --> 01:15:39,280
is sort of mimics frustrations in a sense,

1516
01:15:39,280 --> 01:15:40,120
or bowing down.

1517
01:15:40,120 --> 01:15:41,840
It's very strange.

1518
01:15:41,840 --> 01:15:42,960
It's a liturgical action,

1519
01:15:42,960 --> 01:15:44,240
but it's a different kind of liturgy.

1520
01:15:44,240 --> 01:15:45,080
Yeah.

1521
01:15:45,080 --> 01:15:47,880
It's, yeah, exactly that.

1522
01:15:48,920 --> 01:15:50,520
And if we start looking down

1523
01:15:50,520 --> 01:15:53,840
and look up at the Eucharist for a moment being offered,

1524
01:15:53,840 --> 01:15:56,280
at the cross, Christ being offered,

1525
01:15:56,280 --> 01:15:59,320
then maybe we will recognize Him.

1526
01:15:59,320 --> 01:16:00,680
And speaking of technology,

1527
01:16:00,680 --> 01:16:05,680
like Coptic reader revolutionized the Hulegi.

1528
01:16:06,080 --> 01:16:06,920
Oh my goodness.

1529
01:16:06,920 --> 01:16:11,720
And everyone has all the books, all the prayers,

1530
01:16:11,720 --> 01:16:14,800
everything in an app, right?

1531
01:16:14,800 --> 01:16:15,840
And in Eastern Orthodox Church,

1532
01:16:15,840 --> 01:16:19,440
they have tons of books for service books

1533
01:16:19,440 --> 01:16:22,800
and all sorts of occasions and cycles and everything.

1534
01:16:22,800 --> 01:16:27,040
And they're so impressive, like I was talking

1535
01:16:27,040 --> 01:16:28,120
with Father Jeffrey and he was like,

1536
01:16:28,120 --> 01:16:30,880
I can't believe you're able to fit everything in one app.

1537
01:16:30,880 --> 01:16:33,480
How convenient, how amazing, how wonderful.

1538
01:16:33,480 --> 01:16:34,680
But at the end of the day,

1539
01:16:34,680 --> 01:16:37,400
like it, you know, as convenient as it,

1540
01:16:37,400 --> 01:16:38,560
and I use it all the time,

1541
01:16:38,560 --> 01:16:40,080
and all the fathers, we all use all the time.

1542
01:16:40,080 --> 01:16:44,080
And any service, you know, outside of the church,

1543
01:16:44,080 --> 01:16:46,520
it's exclusively Coptic reader.

1544
01:16:46,520 --> 01:16:48,760
Like we don't carry books with us anymore.

1545
01:16:48,760 --> 01:16:51,480
It's just using app on the phone.

1546
01:16:51,480 --> 01:16:55,680
But the price of that is that you're looking down

1547
01:16:55,680 --> 01:16:57,360
at your phone, right?

1548
01:16:57,360 --> 01:17:02,360
Like, and it does happen from time to time,

1549
01:17:03,160 --> 01:17:05,480
like as you're praying, maybe you get a notification,

1550
01:17:05,480 --> 01:17:07,600
you can, you know, go into airplane mode

1551
01:17:07,600 --> 01:17:08,600
and do all of that stuff.

1552
01:17:08,600 --> 01:17:11,520
But it's still like, you're training your mind,

1553
01:17:11,520 --> 01:17:13,400
like, you know, just stare at your phone.

1554
01:17:13,400 --> 01:17:15,040
Like you stare at your phone for prayer,

1555
01:17:15,040 --> 01:17:16,840
you stare at your phone for entertainment,

1556
01:17:16,840 --> 01:17:18,320
you stare at your phone for distraction.

1557
01:17:18,320 --> 01:17:21,840
Like it's all one direction, one gaze.

1558
01:17:21,840 --> 01:17:22,880
I completely agree.

1559
01:17:22,880 --> 01:17:25,480
And I, this might be a hot thing.

1560
01:17:25,480 --> 01:17:26,800
I don't like Coptic reader.

1561
01:17:26,800 --> 01:17:30,400
I don't know how to hear first folks.

1562
01:17:30,400 --> 01:17:31,960
I don't know how controversial this is yet.

1563
01:17:31,960 --> 01:17:35,120
Maybe I'll find out next week or something.

1564
01:17:35,120 --> 01:17:37,720
I don't like Coptic reader, but for a few reasons,

1565
01:17:37,720 --> 01:17:39,600
but apart from the practical reasons,

1566
01:17:39,600 --> 01:17:42,000
but apart from the technical reasons,

1567
01:17:44,120 --> 01:17:47,640
as you said, like I'm in liturgy,

1568
01:17:47,640 --> 01:17:50,160
I've stopped looking at the liturgy.

1569
01:17:50,160 --> 01:17:52,760
I started looking at the screen.

1570
01:17:52,760 --> 01:17:56,200
At some point I used to listen to the words.

1571
01:17:57,800 --> 01:18:00,320
Of course we had books and stuff,

1572
01:18:00,320 --> 01:18:02,760
but most of the theoretical experience for up until,

1573
01:18:02,760 --> 01:18:04,920
I don't know what year the Coptic reader was done,

1574
01:18:04,920 --> 01:18:09,280
people predominantly experienced liturgy audibly.

1575
01:18:09,280 --> 01:18:11,800
Now people just read it.

1576
01:18:11,800 --> 01:18:16,800
Oftentimes we don't even recognize the words at all.

1577
01:18:21,880 --> 01:18:23,240
If somebody just reading the gospel

1578
01:18:23,240 --> 01:18:24,280
and it's not a Coptic reader,

1579
01:18:24,280 --> 01:18:27,440
somebody put the wrong gospel up by accident or something.

1580
01:18:27,440 --> 01:18:28,560
Oh my goodness.

1581
01:18:28,560 --> 01:18:32,480
How could I even interpret what this person is reading?

1582
01:18:32,480 --> 01:18:35,080
It provokes even like mumbling, for instance, at church,

1583
01:18:35,080 --> 01:18:38,480
I don't need to speak clearly anymore because I,

1584
01:18:38,480 --> 01:18:43,080
so they have the screen, they could read.

1585
01:18:43,080 --> 01:18:46,240
People forget the liturgical patterns that we have.

1586
01:18:46,240 --> 01:18:47,080
Oh, what?

1587
01:18:47,080 --> 01:18:52,040
People used to know this stuff.

1588
01:18:52,040 --> 01:18:53,200
Oh, the struggle is real.

1589
01:18:53,200 --> 01:18:56,480
This is a struggle that has so many times of like,

1590
01:18:56,480 --> 01:18:57,320
which one is it?

1591
01:18:57,320 --> 01:19:00,960
It's Saturday, not Saturday, but we're lent.

1592
01:19:00,960 --> 01:19:01,800
Okay.

1593
01:19:01,800 --> 01:19:02,640
Exactly.

1594
01:19:04,080 --> 01:19:06,480
And people used to know these things.

1595
01:19:06,480 --> 01:19:08,200
And there's value in knowing them

1596
01:19:08,200 --> 01:19:09,560
because then I can interpret them

1597
01:19:09,560 --> 01:19:11,120
and understand why we do these things

1598
01:19:11,120 --> 01:19:13,280
and then get a full understanding of our liturgy.

1599
01:19:13,280 --> 01:19:14,120
But we don't know these things.

1600
01:19:14,120 --> 01:19:15,760
It's like, we're just saying the words.

1601
01:19:15,760 --> 01:19:17,600
It's still, it was magic.

1602
01:19:17,600 --> 01:19:18,920
I'll just say the right words today

1603
01:19:18,920 --> 01:19:20,480
and the magic will happen

1604
01:19:20,480 --> 01:19:22,880
and I'll eat the body and the blood and I'll go home.

1605
01:19:22,880 --> 01:19:24,160
I don't need, I could do whatever.

1606
01:19:24,160 --> 01:19:25,000
It's fine.

1607
01:19:25,000 --> 01:19:26,520
As long as I'm eating the Eucharist at the end.

1608
01:19:29,000 --> 01:19:30,320
It's terrible.

1609
01:19:30,320 --> 01:19:32,640
As you said, it conditions us to look down.

1610
01:19:32,640 --> 01:19:34,880
It conditions us to be on our phones.

1611
01:19:34,880 --> 01:19:39,800
It conditions us to not experience the world

1612
01:19:39,800 --> 01:19:41,520
in an analog way anymore.

1613
01:19:41,520 --> 01:19:45,280
At some point, you know, what's the word?

1614
01:19:45,280 --> 01:19:46,640
Admittedly, a very long time ago,

1615
01:19:46,640 --> 01:19:48,760
there was no electrical lighting.

1616
01:19:48,760 --> 01:19:50,480
The people would bring up the agbeas out

1617
01:19:50,480 --> 01:19:51,920
and hold the candle to see.

1618
01:19:53,840 --> 01:19:55,760
And that's how we experienced the worlds.

1619
01:19:55,760 --> 01:19:57,760
When we prayed, oh, true light,

1620
01:19:57,760 --> 01:20:00,880
who enlightens every man coming into the world.

1621
01:20:00,880 --> 01:20:02,720
In fact, the light was coming up.

1622
01:20:02,720 --> 01:20:03,600
The sun was coming up.

1623
01:20:03,600 --> 01:20:08,160
And I saw and sort of related my experience

1624
01:20:08,160 --> 01:20:09,200
with what I'm saying.

1625
01:20:10,720 --> 01:20:12,600
But now, no, I have my electrical light on.

1626
01:20:12,600 --> 01:20:17,000
I'm looking at my phone lighting up and all these things.

1627
01:20:17,000 --> 01:20:20,200
It feels almost like synthetic, like artificial.

1628
01:20:20,200 --> 01:20:22,560
It's not as organic.

1629
01:20:22,560 --> 01:20:24,560
Which brings me to my next point

1630
01:20:24,560 --> 01:20:27,280
is that the language of the liturgy

1631
01:20:27,280 --> 01:20:29,960
is seen as this obstacle.

1632
01:20:29,960 --> 01:20:31,600
If I don't pray, like,

1633
01:20:31,600 --> 01:20:35,080
it's a controversial topic in many circles.

1634
01:20:35,080 --> 01:20:37,640
Like, what language do you pray in?

1635
01:20:37,640 --> 01:20:42,640
But the fact is that even if 100% of the liturgy

1636
01:20:43,200 --> 01:20:45,840
is translated, this is still a mystical experience.

1637
01:20:45,840 --> 01:20:49,280
You're still encountering the mystery of Christ.

1638
01:20:49,280 --> 01:20:52,720
And even if the words you understand

1639
01:20:52,720 --> 01:20:55,080
the literal meaning of it,

1640
01:20:55,080 --> 01:20:58,200
all of them are, you know, signposts on the road,

1641
01:20:58,200 --> 01:21:00,000
pointing you to this deeper mystery

1642
01:21:00,000 --> 01:21:02,960
to participate, to be active in this mystery.

1643
01:21:02,960 --> 01:21:07,120
And sometimes it feels like, you know,

1644
01:21:07,120 --> 01:21:09,320
it's a red herring, like we're looking at the wrong thing.

1645
01:21:09,320 --> 01:21:12,880
We're focusing on just getting, you know,

1646
01:21:12,880 --> 01:21:17,560
the basic translation done so that it just, you know,

1647
01:21:17,560 --> 01:21:21,080
instead of saying, Erini Pasi, say, peace be with you all.

1648
01:21:21,080 --> 01:21:24,600
And somehow saying, peace be with you

1649
01:21:24,600 --> 01:21:27,200
means that I understand.

1650
01:21:27,200 --> 01:21:32,200
But where I pray, I keep certain things in Coptic

1651
01:21:35,560 --> 01:21:40,560
so that, and these are things like we all know 100%.

1652
01:21:40,840 --> 01:21:44,840
And they're not, you know, very, like I just said,

1653
01:21:44,840 --> 01:21:46,560
like Erini Pasi is peace be with you.

1654
01:21:46,560 --> 01:21:48,440
But I don't say peace be with you, I say Erini Pasi.

1655
01:21:48,440 --> 01:21:51,360
It retains some of the alerts us at least,

1656
01:21:51,360 --> 01:21:54,760
like not all of it is gonna be in English.

1657
01:21:54,760 --> 01:21:56,920
Because even if it were in English,

1658
01:21:56,920 --> 01:22:01,920
it doesn't mean or guarantee 100% participation

1659
01:22:02,160 --> 01:22:03,640
in the liturgy or understanding.

1660
01:22:03,640 --> 01:22:07,680
Yeah, and actually that mirrors the liturgy better.

1661
01:22:07,680 --> 01:22:09,600
Like if we were to pray the whole liturgy

1662
01:22:09,600 --> 01:22:11,840
in not English and not Arabic,

1663
01:22:11,840 --> 01:22:14,640
we weren't, we're actually not praying in all Coptic.

1664
01:22:14,640 --> 01:22:16,720
We're praying in Coptic in Greek.

1665
01:22:16,720 --> 01:22:17,880
Right.

1666
01:22:17,880 --> 01:22:20,440
Erini Pasi is a Greek sentence.

1667
01:22:20,440 --> 01:22:22,280
It's not a Coptic sentence.

1668
01:22:22,280 --> 01:22:23,760
It's not Coptic, that's right.

1669
01:22:23,760 --> 01:22:27,000
Yeah, it would be like, you know, peace,

1670
01:22:27,000 --> 01:22:28,240
forgetting the word, but whatever.

1671
01:22:28,240 --> 01:22:29,480
It will be something else.

1672
01:22:31,960 --> 01:22:33,600
Actually translated as Erini,

1673
01:22:33,600 --> 01:22:35,640
but it's okay, it's neither here nor there.

1674
01:22:35,640 --> 01:22:40,640
And like it makes one wonder,

1675
01:22:45,000 --> 01:22:47,520
were they not concerned with understanding

1676
01:22:47,520 --> 01:22:49,520
when they were praying in Greek and Coptic?

1677
01:22:49,520 --> 01:22:52,000
Why were they praying in Greek and Coptic?

1678
01:22:52,000 --> 01:22:55,800
Yeah, I know there's certain sort of justifications

1679
01:22:55,800 --> 01:22:57,600
that people bring up saying, you know,

1680
01:22:57,600 --> 01:23:00,000
it was at the time when they were shifting from Greek

1681
01:23:00,000 --> 01:23:01,120
to Coptic and the Coptic church,

1682
01:23:01,120 --> 01:23:02,640
people didn't understand the Greek,

1683
01:23:02,640 --> 01:23:04,680
sorry, the Coptic that people were saying,

1684
01:23:04,680 --> 01:23:05,920
presbyters were praying in.

1685
01:23:05,920 --> 01:23:09,320
So, you know, deacons, chanters, subdeacons,

1686
01:23:09,320 --> 01:23:10,200
whatever, readers, whatever,

1687
01:23:10,200 --> 01:23:12,880
were translating into Greek.

1688
01:23:12,880 --> 01:23:14,160
And that's a hypothesis perhaps,

1689
01:23:14,160 --> 01:23:17,520
but that certainly didn't persist for a very long time.

1690
01:23:17,520 --> 01:23:19,880
It wasn't, you know, very quickly,

1691
01:23:19,880 --> 01:23:22,480
Greek was lost from Egypt.

1692
01:23:22,480 --> 01:23:24,320
That didn't stay for a very long time.

1693
01:23:24,320 --> 01:23:27,200
And you had Coptic up until like the 10th century,

1694
01:23:27,200 --> 01:23:30,000
Masan, when you have Soezim Qafi, I believe,

1695
01:23:30,000 --> 01:23:32,480
who laments the loss of Coptic even.

1696
01:23:32,480 --> 01:23:34,400
And, you know, but it's like,

1697
01:23:34,400 --> 01:23:35,400
oh, nobody understands anything

1698
01:23:35,400 --> 01:23:37,240
because we're praying in Coptic,

1699
01:23:37,240 --> 01:23:38,520
and nobody knows Coptic anymore.

1700
01:23:38,520 --> 01:23:41,040
Yeah, everybody's speaking Arabic now.

1701
01:23:41,040 --> 01:23:41,880
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1702
01:23:41,880 --> 01:23:44,040
We're still getting Coptic Arabic,

1703
01:23:44,040 --> 01:23:45,440
you know, manuscripts and literature

1704
01:23:45,440 --> 01:23:46,360
and the writings and things like that.

1705
01:23:46,360 --> 01:23:47,920
Exactly, and it was so interesting

1706
01:23:47,920 --> 01:23:50,160
because like Ibn Kabir, I think in the 14th century says,

1707
01:23:50,160 --> 01:23:55,160
you know, now about the readings specifically.

1708
01:23:55,160 --> 01:23:57,000
Now we read the readings both in Coptic and Arabic

1709
01:23:57,000 --> 01:24:00,080
because people don't know Coptic anymore,

1710
01:24:00,080 --> 01:24:01,440
except for the St. Macarius monastery.

1711
01:24:01,440 --> 01:24:03,200
They still do just in Coptic.

1712
01:24:03,200 --> 01:24:04,240
It's very interesting.

1713
01:24:06,640 --> 01:24:07,480
But-

1714
01:24:07,480 --> 01:24:10,400
And actually the Maaseri of Al-Muharrq.

1715
01:24:10,400 --> 01:24:11,240
Yeah.

1716
01:24:11,240 --> 01:24:16,000
I prayed the liturgy once on the altar, St. Mary.

1717
01:24:16,000 --> 01:24:17,040
You remember the name of the altar?

1718
01:24:17,040 --> 01:24:17,880
I can't remember.

1719
01:24:17,880 --> 01:24:20,800
The altar that was consecrated by our Lord

1720
01:24:20,800 --> 01:24:22,080
during the visit of the Holy Family.

1721
01:24:22,080 --> 01:24:27,080
And I prayed there and it's all Coptic.

1722
01:24:29,200 --> 01:24:30,960
It's all supposed to be in Coptic.

1723
01:24:30,960 --> 01:24:34,880
Now, when I went, it was right after my ordination,

1724
01:24:34,880 --> 01:24:36,560
so I didn't know.

1725
01:24:36,560 --> 01:24:41,560
So like they gave me a part in commemoration

1726
01:24:43,080 --> 01:24:45,680
just to make sure like I'm saying names, so it's fine.

1727
01:24:45,680 --> 01:24:48,560
Like if I say the names and a little bit

1728
01:24:48,560 --> 01:24:51,800
of an English accent or whatever, it still passes.

1729
01:24:51,800 --> 01:24:52,640
It's fine.

1730
01:24:52,640 --> 01:24:56,520
But in other places, like in some places,

1731
01:24:56,520 --> 01:24:57,920
it's 100% Coptic.

1732
01:24:57,920 --> 01:24:58,960
That's incredible.

1733
01:25:00,080 --> 01:25:02,840
I think there's a lot of value in that otherwise.

1734
01:25:02,840 --> 01:25:04,680
Even like in terms, for instance, of,

1735
01:25:05,880 --> 01:25:07,440
I'm not imagining we're gonna revive the language

1736
01:25:07,440 --> 01:25:09,960
or anything, but there's value in being able

1737
01:25:09,960 --> 01:25:11,760
to preserve the language, at least to be able

1738
01:25:11,760 --> 01:25:14,760
to translate things and understand the nuances

1739
01:25:14,760 --> 01:25:17,400
of the texts and being able to interpret liturgies

1740
01:25:17,400 --> 01:25:18,520
and whatnot.

1741
01:25:20,440 --> 01:25:21,960
So there's lots of value, I think,

1742
01:25:21,960 --> 01:25:23,920
in preserving it at least partially.

1743
01:25:24,960 --> 01:25:28,560
But I mean, yeah, like it leads to the question,

1744
01:25:28,560 --> 01:25:30,560
I think of the fact that there's Greek in Coptic.

1745
01:25:30,560 --> 01:25:33,920
It's like, well, for those few hundred years

1746
01:25:33,920 --> 01:25:36,440
between the point where Greek was lost in Egypt

1747
01:25:36,440 --> 01:25:41,440
and people knew Coptic, why was there Greek?

1748
01:25:41,640 --> 01:25:43,600
And how did people just not participate

1749
01:25:43,600 --> 01:25:45,400
for a few hundred years in liturgy?

1750
01:25:48,120 --> 01:25:50,480
I don't think the answer was,

1751
01:25:50,480 --> 01:25:52,320
yeah, they just didn't know anything.

1752
01:25:52,320 --> 01:25:54,320
They just didn't understand anything or participate fully

1753
01:25:54,320 --> 01:25:56,360
or they were not formed by liturgy.

1754
01:25:56,360 --> 01:25:58,360
It just literally stopped working for a few hundred years.

1755
01:25:58,360 --> 01:25:59,400
I don't think that's the answer.

1756
01:25:59,400 --> 01:26:00,400
That would be silly.

1757
01:26:02,040 --> 01:26:03,400
And it applies to us today.

1758
01:26:03,400 --> 01:26:06,400
Like today, for instance, a lot of people in Canada,

1759
01:26:06,400 --> 01:26:09,760
and I'm sure elsewhere, there are congregations

1760
01:26:09,760 --> 01:26:11,560
that are split between, for instance,

1761
01:26:11,560 --> 01:26:13,800
Arabic and English in Canada.

1762
01:26:15,000 --> 01:26:17,800
Like, are you saying you're only participating

1763
01:26:17,800 --> 01:26:21,080
in half the liturgy, the half of your understanding

1764
01:26:21,080 --> 01:26:23,520
if we're doing liturgy, sorry.

1765
01:26:23,520 --> 01:26:24,800
If you do a fully English liturgy

1766
01:26:24,800 --> 01:26:26,280
and somebody only speaks Arabic,

1767
01:26:26,280 --> 01:26:27,800
they're just not participating today?

1768
01:26:27,800 --> 01:26:30,040
And other like vice versa, some Arabic.

1769
01:26:30,040 --> 01:26:33,200
The question is, does understanding

1770
01:26:35,080 --> 01:26:36,600
the words of the liturgy,

1771
01:26:38,040 --> 01:26:40,400
prerequisite for participation?

1772
01:26:40,400 --> 01:26:43,680
And in what sense is that understanding required

1773
01:26:43,680 --> 01:26:45,400
and to what extent?

1774
01:26:45,400 --> 01:26:46,240
I don't think so.

1775
01:26:46,240 --> 01:26:48,480
My opinion, this is, I take it with a grain of salt.

1776
01:26:48,480 --> 01:26:49,320
I don't think it's

1777
01:26:51,240 --> 01:26:55,640
like necessarily required in a sense.

1778
01:26:55,640 --> 01:26:58,560
But this is like, like there's a huge caveat to this.

1779
01:27:00,440 --> 01:27:05,440
Understanding the words alone doesn't mean I participate.

1780
01:27:06,440 --> 01:27:08,480
Doesn't guarantee participation.

1781
01:27:08,480 --> 01:27:13,480
And with that, I don't think participation

1782
01:27:14,800 --> 01:27:17,760
is completely precluded, but it becomes more difficult,

1783
01:27:17,760 --> 01:27:18,720
I think.

1784
01:27:18,720 --> 01:27:21,240
For instance, I went to an Ethiopian liturgy

1785
01:27:22,480 --> 01:27:24,360
and I understood nothing.

1786
01:27:26,080 --> 01:27:29,120
But I understand that I've been in enough liturgies

1787
01:27:29,120 --> 01:27:32,120
that I'm able to recognize the patterns of what's going on.

1788
01:27:33,280 --> 01:27:37,080
And because there's a similar sort of rhetorical style,

1789
01:27:37,080 --> 01:27:40,280
so to speak, between the Coptic church and the Ethiopian church,

1790
01:27:40,280 --> 01:27:42,320
I kind of understood what's going on

1791
01:27:42,320 --> 01:27:43,880
without understanding the words.

1792
01:27:46,080 --> 01:27:47,800
And the experience is universal.

1793
01:27:47,800 --> 01:27:51,480
Like there's always the experience of hymns and beauty.

1794
01:27:51,480 --> 01:27:53,920
There's always the experience of icons.

1795
01:27:53,920 --> 01:27:55,440
There's always the experience of incense.

1796
01:27:55,440 --> 01:27:56,600
There's always the experience of movement

1797
01:27:56,600 --> 01:27:57,880
and kissing and whatever.

1798
01:27:59,320 --> 01:28:02,640
And I think there's all these three levels of liturgy

1799
01:28:02,640 --> 01:28:07,640
have their own rhetorical sets through which they

1800
01:28:08,080 --> 01:28:10,840
sort of communicate what's going on.

1801
01:28:10,840 --> 01:28:14,960
Icons, hymns, experience, or words,

1802
01:28:14,960 --> 01:28:19,480
sort of auditory stimuli, such as words,

1803
01:28:19,480 --> 01:28:24,480
visual stimuli, such as icons and sort of ones of movement.

1804
01:28:26,240 --> 01:28:28,560
Like when I kiss, when I prostrate,

1805
01:28:28,560 --> 01:28:32,720
when I walk around in a circle as I process or something.

1806
01:28:34,440 --> 01:28:36,200
Each of those has their own rhetorical sets

1807
01:28:36,200 --> 01:28:37,840
that they communicate things with.

1808
01:28:37,840 --> 01:28:39,520
So I lose something, of course,

1809
01:28:39,520 --> 01:28:41,000
when I just lose one of those.

1810
01:28:42,320 --> 01:28:43,800
Even though the auditory has two levels,

1811
01:28:43,800 --> 01:28:48,360
as the hymnographic sense that sometimes I'm singing

1812
01:28:48,360 --> 01:28:51,000
melismatically in very long tunes and whatever.

1813
01:28:51,000 --> 01:28:52,720
Sometimes I'm singing somnolatically very quickly.

1814
01:28:52,720 --> 01:28:53,760
Sometimes I'm singing chorally.

1815
01:28:53,760 --> 01:28:55,360
Sometimes I'm singing by myself.

1816
01:28:55,360 --> 01:28:58,840
And all these, again, add a dimension to

1817
01:29:00,280 --> 01:29:01,200
how I experience liturgy.

1818
01:29:01,200 --> 01:29:02,840
But of course I'm losing something

1819
01:29:02,840 --> 01:29:04,760
when I just don't understand anything.

1820
01:29:04,760 --> 01:29:08,880
So that's the question is that kind of like scripture.

1821
01:29:08,880 --> 01:29:13,880
Scripture is not self-explanatory in a sense where,

1822
01:29:14,200 --> 01:29:15,800
like the Ethiopian eunuch clearly says,

1823
01:29:15,800 --> 01:29:19,640
how can I understand unless someone explains it to me?

1824
01:29:19,640 --> 01:29:21,600
Is the liturgy self-explanatory?

1825
01:29:21,600 --> 01:29:24,800
Is it supposed to be this standalone experience

1826
01:29:24,800 --> 01:29:29,800
where you just go and it will work on its own

1827
01:29:31,280 --> 01:29:33,360
regardless of your understanding,

1828
01:29:33,360 --> 01:29:35,280
regardless of your participation,

1829
01:29:35,280 --> 01:29:38,960
or is religious education for people coming into it,

1830
01:29:38,960 --> 01:29:43,200
like catechumen it, is that a necessary component

1831
01:29:43,200 --> 01:29:44,720
in being able to participate?

1832
01:29:44,720 --> 01:29:46,440
I think yes and no.

1833
01:29:46,440 --> 01:29:48,880
Yes, I'll start with the no.

1834
01:29:50,520 --> 01:29:54,440
The no because we begin with experience ultimately.

1835
01:29:54,440 --> 01:29:56,000
And ultimately liturgy is the place

1836
01:29:56,000 --> 01:29:58,040
through which scripture is interpreted.

1837
01:29:58,040 --> 01:29:59,080
Right.

1838
01:29:59,080 --> 01:29:59,920
Like, aslo.

1839
01:29:59,920 --> 01:30:00,880
Yeah.

1840
01:30:00,880 --> 01:30:03,520
You know, at some point scripture is only read

1841
01:30:03,520 --> 01:30:05,840
in liturgy for a very long time.

1842
01:30:05,840 --> 01:30:07,360
Liturgy is the starting point.

1843
01:30:07,360 --> 01:30:08,200
Yeah.

1844
01:30:08,200 --> 01:30:09,040
That's the experience of it.

1845
01:30:09,040 --> 01:30:10,000
And it interprets other things.

1846
01:30:10,000 --> 01:30:12,480
Liturgy is not something like I hate when we,

1847
01:30:12,480 --> 01:30:13,440
hate is a strong word.

1848
01:30:13,440 --> 01:30:18,440
I get bothered when we separate liturgy from patristics,

1849
01:30:19,520 --> 01:30:21,040
from like Christology.

1850
01:30:21,040 --> 01:30:23,840
And there's all these different sources, different, you know.

1851
01:30:23,840 --> 01:30:26,160
Yeah, like all these quote unquote fields of theology.

1852
01:30:26,160 --> 01:30:28,040
That's silly, like ascetic theology.

1853
01:30:28,040 --> 01:30:29,600
I don't know.

1854
01:30:29,600 --> 01:30:31,920
That's a very artificial separation.

1855
01:30:31,920 --> 01:30:34,960
Systematic theology and all these different categorizations.

1856
01:30:34,960 --> 01:30:38,760
I think it's kind of very artificial, very synthetic.

1857
01:30:40,200 --> 01:30:42,840
In reality, it's all the same thing.

1858
01:30:42,840 --> 01:30:47,120
Liturgy shows us what it means for Christ to be incarnate.

1859
01:30:47,120 --> 01:30:49,880
It showed us what it is that the Father does all things

1860
01:30:49,880 --> 01:30:50,720
through the Spirit.

1861
01:30:50,720 --> 01:30:54,760
It shows us scripture, interprets for a scripture.

1862
01:30:54,760 --> 01:30:59,760
It shows us, if you want to sort of speak patristically,

1863
01:31:00,320 --> 01:31:02,880
like, you know, it shows us, I mean, there's two sentences

1864
01:31:02,880 --> 01:31:04,960
in that, you know, in the Holy Week,

1865
01:31:04,960 --> 01:31:06,440
we have all these homilies, but also it shows us

1866
01:31:06,440 --> 01:31:08,080
how the Fathers might have approached liturgy

1867
01:31:08,080 --> 01:31:10,080
because these are very old texts.

1868
01:31:10,080 --> 01:31:12,240
It shows us all sorts of things.

1869
01:31:12,240 --> 01:31:14,360
It shows us, you know, how to live.

1870
01:31:14,360 --> 01:31:19,200
It shows us what asceticism is, what the cross is,

1871
01:31:19,200 --> 01:31:20,680
because that's asceticism.

1872
01:31:20,680 --> 01:31:22,000
Like, there's no separation.

1873
01:31:22,000 --> 01:31:24,400
So liturgy really is the place, I think,

1874
01:31:24,400 --> 01:31:26,360
through which we enact theology.

1875
01:31:26,360 --> 01:31:28,920
And if we let it affect our lives,

1876
01:31:28,920 --> 01:31:33,640
then it becomes the sort of grander macrocosmic liturgy

1877
01:31:33,640 --> 01:31:36,080
that Jacob of Syrup might have explained,

1878
01:31:36,080 --> 01:31:38,360
that life is in fact a liturgy.

1879
01:31:38,360 --> 01:31:40,560
And this microcosmic ritual liturgy

1880
01:31:40,560 --> 01:31:44,560
just sort of shapes this grander one.

1881
01:31:44,560 --> 01:31:46,400
If we understand liturgy properly

1882
01:31:46,400 --> 01:31:48,040
and move with it properly,

1883
01:31:48,040 --> 01:31:49,920
we're sort of being conditioned and habituated

1884
01:31:49,920 --> 01:31:53,360
to move in our lives otherwise correctly.

1885
01:31:53,360 --> 01:31:55,320
But I also think, yes,

1886
01:31:55,320 --> 01:31:57,640
it also needs to be interpreted for us in a sense.

1887
01:31:57,640 --> 01:32:01,120
Like, that's why you have the serial of Jerusalem

1888
01:32:01,120 --> 01:32:06,120
explaining the mysteries to his newly baptized catechumens

1889
01:32:06,200 --> 01:32:07,880
or Gregor of Nyssa doing the same,

1890
01:32:07,880 --> 01:32:09,560
and all these sort of catechetical orations

1891
01:32:09,560 --> 01:32:14,560
are for newly baptized catechumens by all sorts of Fathers.

1892
01:32:15,320 --> 01:32:16,880
Those are very sort of common.

1893
01:32:16,880 --> 01:32:21,880
Yeah, like literary texts that we have from the Fathers.

1894
01:32:25,920 --> 01:32:27,280
But I think it comes second.

1895
01:32:29,600 --> 01:32:31,000
So experience comes first.

1896
01:32:31,000 --> 01:32:32,000
Yes.

1897
01:32:32,000 --> 01:32:35,360
But education secondary to that?

1898
01:32:35,360 --> 01:32:37,680
Secondary, but also happens second,

1899
01:32:37,680 --> 01:32:39,960
like in terms of the chronological sets.

1900
01:32:39,960 --> 01:32:42,520
Like, I go to liturgy, I do the thing,

1901
01:32:42,520 --> 01:32:43,760
and then my Father of Confession,

1902
01:32:43,760 --> 01:32:48,160
or maybe the priest in the sermon, or I don't know,

1903
01:32:48,160 --> 01:32:53,000
in whatever venue for education that we're experiencing,

1904
01:32:53,000 --> 01:32:53,960
then they explain, like, actually,

1905
01:32:53,960 --> 01:32:55,360
what just happened is this.

1906
01:32:55,360 --> 01:32:57,520
What you just experienced is this.

1907
01:32:57,520 --> 01:32:58,720
This is what's going on.

1908
01:33:01,000 --> 01:33:04,120
And we see this pattern also in sort of ascetic literature.

1909
01:33:07,120 --> 01:33:09,560
Like, for example, there's the famous story

1910
01:33:09,560 --> 01:33:13,200
of Abba John the Short, you know, with the stick.

1911
01:33:13,200 --> 01:33:15,200
You know, being told, okay, you know,

1912
01:33:15,200 --> 01:33:18,200
go and water the stick every day

1913
01:33:18,200 --> 01:33:20,440
for like three years or something.

1914
01:33:20,440 --> 01:33:21,920
And he goes every day, waters the stick,

1915
01:33:21,920 --> 01:33:25,280
and eventually the stick becomes a tree,

1916
01:33:25,280 --> 01:33:27,480
it freezes fruit, so your Father takes it,

1917
01:33:27,480 --> 01:33:30,800
so the monk says, look, here's the fruit of obedience.

1918
01:33:33,480 --> 01:33:36,240
What happened in the story is that ritual came first.

1919
01:33:36,240 --> 01:33:37,920
He was told, just do the thing.

1920
01:33:37,920 --> 01:33:39,640
Just go and water this every day.

1921
01:33:39,640 --> 01:33:41,080
And that was the ritual, that was the liturgy,

1922
01:33:41,080 --> 01:33:43,320
so to speak, that he did.

1923
01:33:43,320 --> 01:33:46,600
It was only afterwards that he took the lesson.

1924
01:33:46,600 --> 01:33:50,360
And like, look, this is what happens when you do the thing.

1925
01:33:51,320 --> 01:33:54,400
This is what happens when you're obedient, in this case.

1926
01:33:54,400 --> 01:33:59,400
And obedience was necessary, right?

1927
01:34:00,000 --> 01:34:05,000
Like it was, the ritual was also interpreted correctly.

1928
01:34:06,040 --> 01:34:08,840
That's one key thing that I wanted to highlight too,

1929
01:34:08,840 --> 01:34:12,400
is that like had, I was on the short thought,

1930
01:34:12,400 --> 01:34:14,960
oh, like maybe misunderstood his spiritual father.

1931
01:34:14,960 --> 01:34:16,520
And like, oh, he really doesn't want me to.

1932
01:34:16,520 --> 01:34:17,560
And he did it like out of spite,

1933
01:34:17,560 --> 01:34:20,720
like I'm gonna show him, I'm gonna water it anyways.

1934
01:34:20,720 --> 01:34:22,880
That then, like we could conclude,

1935
01:34:22,880 --> 01:34:24,280
like of course this wasn't a frown,

1936
01:34:24,280 --> 01:34:27,080
it was a fruit of obedience, as the spiritual father said.

1937
01:34:28,680 --> 01:34:33,680
So we do only correctly understood through the experience.

1938
01:34:33,680 --> 01:34:38,680
Yeah, it's liturgy that we do, ritual that we do,

1939
01:34:39,480 --> 01:34:42,320
with our end being Christ.

1940
01:34:42,320 --> 01:34:46,480
But if we understand the end, if we understand the goal,

1941
01:34:46,480 --> 01:34:48,440
the goal for him was the obedience.

1942
01:34:48,440 --> 01:34:50,720
The goal for him was like he didn't have any other thing

1943
01:34:50,720 --> 01:34:52,720
that he was expecting out of this ritual.

1944
01:34:52,720 --> 01:34:54,960
He's like, I'm gonna be obedient to my spiritual father.

1945
01:34:54,960 --> 01:34:58,440
I think if we understand the goal, that's the requirement.

1946
01:34:58,440 --> 01:35:01,520
I'm doing this because I'm obedient,

1947
01:35:01,520 --> 01:35:04,160
because I am emptying myself for God,

1948
01:35:04,160 --> 01:35:07,920
because I love God, because I'm his spouse,

1949
01:35:07,920 --> 01:35:11,680
because I long for union with him,

1950
01:35:11,680 --> 01:35:14,400
because that's what it is to live.

1951
01:35:14,400 --> 01:35:15,920
To live is in fact to die.

1952
01:35:17,840 --> 01:35:19,400
It's not about me, because I need to be formed.

1953
01:35:19,400 --> 01:35:21,880
All these things, if I understand the goal

1954
01:35:21,880 --> 01:35:26,680
of what I'm doing, then,

1955
01:35:26,680 --> 01:35:28,080
and I think obviously with guidance,

1956
01:35:28,080 --> 01:35:29,680
I don't just know things, you know,

1957
01:35:29,680 --> 01:35:31,120
I'm guided into knowing things.

1958
01:35:31,120 --> 01:35:32,280
I'm sure, I was on the show,

1959
01:35:32,280 --> 01:35:34,840
it was told that obedience is something that's desirable.

1960
01:35:37,160 --> 01:35:39,640
We do the thing and something happens.

1961
01:35:39,640 --> 01:35:41,120
And I think these things that happen

1962
01:35:41,120 --> 01:35:44,000
can only be described retroactively.

1963
01:35:44,000 --> 01:35:46,560
I can then be shown, you know,

1964
01:35:47,920 --> 01:35:50,160
what you just did, this is what happened.

1965
01:35:50,160 --> 01:35:51,520
You just went to liturgy.

1966
01:35:51,520 --> 01:35:55,040
You're just united to Christ because look at all this.

1967
01:35:55,040 --> 01:35:57,280
Because it's something that we experience first.

1968
01:35:57,280 --> 01:35:58,880
Like I'm going to experience the fruit first.

1969
01:35:58,880 --> 01:36:01,360
I'm going to experience the tree growing first.

1970
01:36:02,240 --> 01:36:04,440
It might sound ridiculous if my spiritual father comes

1971
01:36:04,440 --> 01:36:06,640
and tells me if you water this thick enough,

1972
01:36:06,640 --> 01:36:07,760
it will be a tree.

1973
01:36:08,760 --> 01:36:10,800
But it's not as ridiculous when I see it.

1974
01:36:10,800 --> 01:36:11,640
Right.

1975
01:36:12,560 --> 01:36:14,600
And it's a different kind of knowledge, you know.

1976
01:36:14,600 --> 01:36:16,280
Experiential knowledge is the kind of knowledge

1977
01:36:16,280 --> 01:36:17,720
that no one can take away from you.

1978
01:36:17,720 --> 01:36:19,240
It's something you've experienced.

1979
01:36:19,240 --> 01:36:20,080
Yeah.

1980
01:36:20,080 --> 01:36:23,480
And we don't think about it often,

1981
01:36:23,480 --> 01:36:26,320
but like there's, but we know this sort of again,

1982
01:36:26,320 --> 01:36:30,440
like from our day-to-day intuition, like, you know,

1983
01:36:30,440 --> 01:36:33,160
the first person who wrote a book about a tree

1984
01:36:33,160 --> 01:36:35,120
must have experienced the tree.

1985
01:36:35,120 --> 01:36:37,640
Like he didn't just come up with the idea of a tree

1986
01:36:37,640 --> 01:36:39,200
and then found the tree in the wild.

1987
01:36:39,200 --> 01:36:40,480
He first experienced the tree

1988
01:36:40,480 --> 01:36:41,560
and then wrote the book about the tree.

1989
01:36:41,560 --> 01:36:42,920
Experience comes first.

1990
01:36:42,920 --> 01:36:43,760
Yeah.

1991
01:36:43,760 --> 01:36:47,760
And I cannot come to the second point of knowledge.

1992
01:36:47,760 --> 01:36:50,360
Like there's no way to produce it

1993
01:36:50,360 --> 01:36:52,680
without the experience first.

1994
01:36:52,680 --> 01:36:56,240
Like I have to do the thing, I have to see the tree first.

1995
01:36:56,240 --> 01:36:58,360
And then I could write a book about trees.

1996
01:36:58,360 --> 01:36:59,520
But I can't write a book about trees

1997
01:36:59,520 --> 01:37:01,520
and then go look for a tree.

1998
01:37:01,520 --> 01:37:02,360
Right.

1999
01:37:04,200 --> 01:37:05,160
Then...

2000
01:37:05,160 --> 01:37:06,800
In the world of academia, you know,

2001
01:37:06,800 --> 01:37:08,360
there are a lot of liturgical scholars

2002
01:37:08,360 --> 01:37:10,400
who are non-practicing, they're non-Christian even.

2003
01:37:10,400 --> 01:37:13,840
And, you know, they take it as a study in, you know,

2004
01:37:13,840 --> 01:37:16,800
a historical study, you know, a sociological study

2005
01:37:16,800 --> 01:37:19,240
and to see how, you know, communities are formed

2006
01:37:19,240 --> 01:37:24,080
and how they organize themselves and all that stuff.

2007
01:37:24,080 --> 01:37:30,120
And it doesn't mean that their conclusion is Christ

2008
01:37:30,120 --> 01:37:33,440
because experience is no part of their process,

2009
01:37:33,440 --> 01:37:35,960
it is no part of their, you know, the research.

2010
01:37:35,960 --> 01:37:39,960
It's just purely just looking at data and analyzing

2011
01:37:39,960 --> 01:37:42,640
and, you know, saying like, this is how they pray

2012
01:37:42,640 --> 01:37:44,800
and this is how they structure their prayer

2013
01:37:44,800 --> 01:37:45,640
and all that stuff.

2014
01:37:45,640 --> 01:37:49,280
And, you know, end of the day.

2015
01:37:49,280 --> 01:37:51,720
That's the end of it.

2016
01:37:51,720 --> 01:37:52,560
Right.

2017
01:37:52,560 --> 01:37:53,560
I was speaking with a friend.

2018
01:37:53,560 --> 01:37:55,920
Actually, after that conference,

2019
01:37:55,920 --> 01:37:57,800
Coptic Studies, where we saw the, you know,

2020
01:37:57,800 --> 01:38:02,280
examples of the icons from the Syrian monastery.

2021
01:38:02,280 --> 01:38:02,880
Yeah.

2022
01:38:02,880 --> 01:38:07,080
And my friend was telling me, you know,

2023
01:38:07,080 --> 01:38:11,640
if someone from strictly sort of ritual studies

2024
01:38:11,640 --> 01:38:15,960
or, you know, from what you're describing,

2025
01:38:15,960 --> 01:38:19,080
comes and sees this, like, not the presentation,

2026
01:38:19,080 --> 01:38:22,440
but the iconography, their only conclusion would be like,

2027
01:38:22,440 --> 01:38:25,320
oh, the donor was rich.

2028
01:38:25,320 --> 01:38:27,280
Like that would be because the icons are so beautiful

2029
01:38:27,280 --> 01:38:28,160
because they're so elaborate.

2030
01:38:28,160 --> 01:38:29,760
Because they're all that stuff.

2031
01:38:29,760 --> 01:38:32,400
Like, oh, they must have been rich.

2032
01:38:32,400 --> 01:38:33,720
But that would be the conclusion.

2033
01:38:33,720 --> 01:38:36,720
But look how much more we're able to sort of to see

2034
01:38:36,720 --> 01:38:41,120
and understand when it's put in the context

2035
01:38:41,120 --> 01:38:43,920
of this matrix of interpretation.

2036
01:38:43,920 --> 01:38:45,120
Right.

2037
01:38:45,120 --> 01:38:47,320
When we're able to interpret it and understand it correctly,

2038
01:38:47,320 --> 01:38:51,760
then we glean all these things out of it.

2039
01:38:51,760 --> 01:38:54,680
And that's why I mean, the scripture itself,

2040
01:38:54,680 --> 01:38:56,600
outside of the tradition of the church,

2041
01:38:56,600 --> 01:38:58,080
is merely a historical book.

2042
01:38:58,080 --> 01:39:00,120
Like it's people looking, you know,

2043
01:39:00,120 --> 01:39:02,840
historical critical method and, you know,

2044
01:39:02,840 --> 01:39:05,920
the history of the Israelites and how they lived and,

2045
01:39:05,920 --> 01:39:07,920
you know, their habits and all that stuff.

2046
01:39:07,920 --> 01:39:11,960
And that's it, just like any other ancient group of people.

2047
01:39:11,960 --> 01:39:13,920
But there's no encounter with the risen Lord.

2048
01:39:13,920 --> 01:39:14,760
There's none of that.

2049
01:39:14,760 --> 01:39:19,200
There's just a flattened kind of, you know,

2050
01:39:19,200 --> 01:39:22,120
simplified version of what it is.

2051
01:39:22,120 --> 01:39:24,960
Which brings me to my last question.

2052
01:39:24,960 --> 01:39:32,080
Orders, major, minor orders, and specifically the deacons.

2053
01:39:32,080 --> 01:39:33,520
There are very few deacons.

2054
01:39:33,520 --> 01:39:34,920
There are few deacons.

2055
01:39:34,920 --> 01:39:37,680
And at the same time, we have a lot of deacons.

2056
01:39:37,680 --> 01:39:38,560
Right.

2057
01:39:38,560 --> 01:39:41,440
We have young deacons, we have old deacons.

2058
01:39:41,440 --> 01:39:44,800
We have deacons who read.

2059
01:39:44,800 --> 01:39:46,800
We have deacons who chant.

2060
01:39:46,800 --> 01:39:51,040
We have readers who chant, and chanters who read.

2061
01:39:51,040 --> 01:39:59,080
We have subdeacons who don't chant or read.

2062
01:39:59,080 --> 01:40:03,880
And we have deacons who are, for all intents and purposes,

2063
01:40:03,880 --> 01:40:06,080
are liturgical assistants.

2064
01:40:06,080 --> 01:40:11,880
And, you know, you read about St. Stephen the Archdeacon.

2065
01:40:11,880 --> 01:40:14,440
And you see the rank of deacons in the Book of Acts.

2066
01:40:14,440 --> 01:40:17,680
And you see what deacons were entrusted with,

2067
01:40:17,680 --> 01:40:19,600
and what the purpose of a deacon is.

2068
01:40:19,600 --> 01:40:22,680
And you see, like, it's not just a liturgical assistant.

2069
01:40:22,680 --> 01:40:24,840
There's so much more than that.

2070
01:40:24,840 --> 01:40:30,280
And then, yes, like rank and function are almost,

2071
01:40:30,280 --> 01:40:31,760
like, they're mismatched.

2072
01:40:31,760 --> 01:40:32,240
Right.

2073
01:40:32,240 --> 01:40:33,280
And why is that?

2074
01:40:33,280 --> 01:40:34,520
How did we get here?

2075
01:40:34,520 --> 01:40:35,440
Oh, my goodness.

2076
01:40:35,440 --> 01:40:36,120
It's such a...

2077
01:40:36,120 --> 01:40:38,920
It's a whole other conversation.

2078
01:40:38,920 --> 01:40:40,960
That's a whole other rant that I have.

2079
01:40:40,960 --> 01:40:44,280
You should ask for London.

2080
01:40:44,280 --> 01:40:46,360
Oh, yeah.

2081
01:40:46,360 --> 01:40:48,440
This is something that I think we really

2082
01:40:48,440 --> 01:40:51,200
need to fix in the Coptic Church.

2083
01:40:51,200 --> 01:40:56,320
Like, there's a reason why we have all these orders, right?

2084
01:40:56,320 --> 01:41:00,360
And orders were standardized very, very, very late.

2085
01:41:00,360 --> 01:41:02,600
Like, we have this imagination that this is, like,

2086
01:41:02,600 --> 01:41:04,080
from day one, it was like this.

2087
01:41:04,080 --> 01:41:09,000
Like, in medieval canons and commentaries and stuff,

2088
01:41:09,000 --> 01:41:10,960
I can think of Ibn Turek.

2089
01:41:10,960 --> 01:41:12,280
Like, he has canons about...

2090
01:41:12,280 --> 01:41:13,880
Ibn Turek is which century?

2091
01:41:13,880 --> 01:41:14,400
12th.

2092
01:41:14,400 --> 01:41:15,000
12th century.

2093
01:41:15,000 --> 01:41:16,400
Yeah.

2094
01:41:16,400 --> 01:41:18,280
He has canons about, for instance,

2095
01:41:18,280 --> 01:41:22,560
like another order of doorkeepers,

2096
01:41:22,560 --> 01:41:25,240
which is separate from the subdeacons.

2097
01:41:25,240 --> 01:41:28,120
The subdeacons were one of their tasks

2098
01:41:28,120 --> 01:41:30,040
for the stray cats and stray animals

2099
01:41:30,040 --> 01:41:32,080
to make sure they don't...

2100
01:41:32,080 --> 01:41:34,320
If you read the description, it's like, you know,

2101
01:41:34,320 --> 01:41:36,800
or not description, but if you read the commands

2102
01:41:36,800 --> 01:41:38,800
that they're given, you know, and you will keep out...

2103
01:41:38,800 --> 01:41:40,200
Dogs and heretics.

2104
01:41:40,200 --> 01:41:42,080
Dogs and heretics, right, yes.

2105
01:41:42,080 --> 01:41:45,640
It's very aggressive.

2106
01:41:45,640 --> 01:41:48,440
But there's this other rank where doorkeepers...

2107
01:41:48,440 --> 01:41:51,000
Yeah, there's all these variations,

2108
01:41:51,000 --> 01:41:52,520
and it's okay, and that's good.

2109
01:41:52,520 --> 01:41:54,280
And I think this highlights the point that I'm trying to make

2110
01:41:54,280 --> 01:41:58,560
is that there are things that we do in the church.

2111
01:41:58,560 --> 01:42:00,040
Like, for instance, when we make Qurbun,

2112
01:42:00,040 --> 01:42:04,520
we chant, we read, we keep the doors,

2113
01:42:04,520 --> 01:42:08,640
we clean the church, we have to fill up the oil in the candles,

2114
01:42:08,640 --> 01:42:10,240
we have to get new candles for the ones,

2115
01:42:10,240 --> 01:42:14,360
like the wax ones that, you know, burn up, we have to do...

2116
01:42:14,360 --> 01:42:16,120
All sorts of things.

2117
01:42:16,120 --> 01:42:20,760
And so the church just sort of puts...

2118
01:42:20,760 --> 01:42:22,640
Like, okay, you're gonna help out with the service,

2119
01:42:22,640 --> 01:42:24,400
you're gonna help out with the service, you're gonna do this,

2120
01:42:24,400 --> 01:42:26,480
you're gonna chant, because you're a good singer,

2121
01:42:26,480 --> 01:42:28,680
you're gonna read, because you're a good reader,

2122
01:42:28,680 --> 01:42:30,560
or you can read, or whatever reason, you know,

2123
01:42:30,560 --> 01:42:32,160
because you can...

2124
01:42:32,160 --> 01:42:33,000
What's the word?

2125
01:42:33,000 --> 01:42:33,840
You're literate.

2126
01:42:33,840 --> 01:42:35,800
Yeah, literate, but also, like, I think today,

2127
01:42:35,800 --> 01:42:39,400
and like most people are literate,

2128
01:42:39,400 --> 01:42:40,400
but they can't enunciate.

2129
01:42:40,400 --> 01:42:43,480
They're not the word, thank you.

2130
01:42:43,480 --> 01:42:45,040
Because you're a good enunciator.

2131
01:42:45,040 --> 01:42:48,720
Phonetically, you're very good, you know, people understand you.

2132
01:42:48,720 --> 01:42:50,120
Which is very important.

2133
01:42:50,120 --> 01:42:51,720
So important!

2134
01:42:51,720 --> 01:42:55,640
It makes a huge difference when a deacon reads well,

2135
01:42:55,640 --> 01:42:59,160
and, you know, when the reading is kind of done weakly

2136
01:42:59,160 --> 01:43:01,320
and not very strong.

2137
01:43:01,320 --> 01:43:02,720
100%.

2138
01:43:02,720 --> 01:43:04,880
It's different, I think, you know...

2139
01:43:04,880 --> 01:43:08,320
It's different, for example, if we speak about something

2140
01:43:08,320 --> 01:43:09,960
versus when I read about something.

2141
01:43:09,960 --> 01:43:10,800
Yes.

2142
01:43:10,800 --> 01:43:13,120
We experience the thing differently, so it's...

2143
01:43:16,280 --> 01:43:19,520
Again, if we just reduce it to me just following along

2144
01:43:19,520 --> 01:43:21,800
with Coptic Reader or something, it's not the same experience

2145
01:43:21,800 --> 01:43:23,320
that I'm having as someone reading,

2146
01:43:23,320 --> 01:43:26,040
and we're sort of dialoguing, in a sense.

2147
01:43:26,040 --> 01:43:30,160
Like, he reads to me, and I respond with the response.

2148
01:43:30,160 --> 01:43:31,960
It's a completely different...

2149
01:43:31,960 --> 01:43:35,040
way of doing things.

2150
01:43:35,040 --> 01:43:38,840
But yeah, it's unfortunate where we've come,

2151
01:43:38,840 --> 01:43:40,840
that, you know, it's...

2152
01:43:42,680 --> 01:43:44,200
Like, I understand the impetus.

2153
01:43:44,200 --> 01:43:47,160
I understand that we want to encourage little boys,

2154
01:43:47,160 --> 01:43:50,240
for example, to participate in the church,

2155
01:43:50,240 --> 01:43:54,200
and so we, like, taunt them,

2156
01:43:54,200 --> 01:43:56,400
chant their very young and whatever.

2157
01:43:56,400 --> 01:43:58,360
But I think there's two problems, though.

2158
01:43:58,360 --> 01:44:00,760
The first problem is that we're not doing

2159
01:44:00,760 --> 01:44:02,600
the same thing as we did before.

2160
01:44:02,600 --> 01:44:05,840
The first problem is that we're saying participation

2161
01:44:05,840 --> 01:44:09,000
is precluded outside of taunturing.

2162
01:44:09,000 --> 01:44:12,200
So then you have, like, all the girls

2163
01:44:12,200 --> 01:44:15,880
not considered as participants in the church implicitly.

2164
01:44:15,880 --> 01:44:17,000
Nobody says it.

2165
01:44:17,000 --> 01:44:19,080
But implicitly, like, yeah, you know, for example,

2166
01:44:19,080 --> 01:44:21,960
I used to teach, like, some hymns classes at church,

2167
01:44:21,960 --> 01:44:23,720
and, you know...

2168
01:44:23,720 --> 01:44:26,040
So it's something another uncle used to,

2169
01:44:26,040 --> 01:44:27,280
and I'd...

2170
01:44:27,280 --> 01:44:29,400
Like, a couple of weeks, I'd fill in for him

2171
01:44:29,400 --> 01:44:31,320
and go grab them, like, you guys are starting now,

2172
01:44:31,320 --> 01:44:32,440
and the girls would be like, no, no, no,

2173
01:44:32,440 --> 01:44:34,800
we're not koro koro, deacons.

2174
01:44:34,800 --> 01:44:37,640
I'm like, okay, but this is...

2175
01:44:38,960 --> 01:44:39,800
What's wrong?

2176
01:44:39,800 --> 01:44:40,640
Hands up for everyone, yeah.

2177
01:44:40,640 --> 01:44:41,640
Like, can you sing?

2178
01:44:41,640 --> 01:44:42,480
Yes.

2179
01:44:43,840 --> 01:44:45,040
I didn't know what to say.

2180
01:44:45,040 --> 01:44:46,160
I was sort of taken aback.

2181
01:44:46,160 --> 01:44:47,320
I'm like, it's fine, you can come.

2182
01:44:47,320 --> 01:44:48,480
It's okay, please come.

2183
01:44:51,880 --> 01:44:54,040
So even if we don't explicitly say it,

2184
01:44:54,040 --> 01:44:55,320
that's how it's perceived.

2185
01:44:55,320 --> 01:44:56,160
Yeah.

2186
01:44:56,160 --> 01:44:58,160
I don't need to chant, I don't need to respond.

2187
01:44:58,160 --> 01:44:59,000
That's what they do.

2188
01:44:59,000 --> 01:45:02,480
I'm just gonna be here on my phone, or whatever,

2189
01:45:02,480 --> 01:45:03,320
looking at my watch,

2190
01:45:03,320 --> 01:45:04,560
and I'll just wait for them to finish.

2191
01:45:04,560 --> 01:45:05,400
I can come later.

2192
01:45:05,400 --> 01:45:06,920
Because the chants are for the deacon.

2193
01:45:06,920 --> 01:45:07,760
Exactly.

2194
01:45:07,760 --> 01:45:08,600
The reading is for the deacons.

2195
01:45:08,600 --> 01:45:09,440
That's what they do.

2196
01:45:09,440 --> 01:45:12,720
You know, the liturgy essentially is for the ordained.

2197
01:45:12,720 --> 01:45:13,560
Exactly.

2198
01:45:13,560 --> 01:45:14,680
The laymen are...

2199
01:45:14,680 --> 01:45:15,520
Observers.

2200
01:45:15,520 --> 01:45:16,360
Observing.

2201
01:45:16,360 --> 01:45:17,200
Yeah.

2202
01:45:17,200 --> 01:45:19,080
And it's not helpful at all to think of it that way, right?

2203
01:45:19,080 --> 01:45:19,920
So...

2204
01:45:21,760 --> 01:45:22,880
Controversial thing.

2205
01:45:24,160 --> 01:45:28,040
I think it's fine to taunt your women, for instance,

2206
01:45:28,040 --> 01:45:29,440
as chanters.

2207
01:45:29,440 --> 01:45:30,960
But even if not...

2208
01:45:32,400 --> 01:45:35,040
Even if not,

2209
01:45:35,040 --> 01:45:37,360
we can't understand liturgical participation

2210
01:45:37,360 --> 01:45:39,320
as strictly singing, and only singing.

2211
01:45:40,920 --> 01:45:43,040
Because, again, it's implied by the fact

2212
01:45:43,040 --> 01:45:44,240
that we taunt our boys very young,

2213
01:45:44,240 --> 01:45:45,560
because that's the only way they're gonna participate

2214
01:45:45,560 --> 01:45:46,400
in the church.

2215
01:45:46,400 --> 01:45:48,120
And it works, right?

2216
01:45:48,120 --> 01:45:49,760
But I think it's because we understand

2217
01:45:49,760 --> 01:45:52,520
participation as singing, as chanting.

2218
01:45:52,520 --> 01:45:55,480
Like, go early, because Abunah's gonna start matins,

2219
01:45:55,480 --> 01:45:57,800
and he needs, quote unquote, deacons with him.

2220
01:45:57,800 --> 01:45:58,640
Right.

2221
01:45:59,480 --> 01:46:02,120
Like, go early, like go tzabaha,

2222
01:46:02,120 --> 01:46:05,760
because deacons are the ones singing.

2223
01:46:06,880 --> 01:46:08,240
All these sort of things.

2224
01:46:09,920 --> 01:46:13,120
If we understand participation as only singing,

2225
01:46:13,120 --> 01:46:17,880
then we first sort of remove all the people

2226
01:46:17,880 --> 01:46:20,440
who can't sing from participating.

2227
01:46:20,440 --> 01:46:23,480
And also, we limit participation.

2228
01:46:23,480 --> 01:46:25,040
That's when you have, for example,

2229
01:46:25,040 --> 01:46:28,080
chanters speaking to each other when Abunah's saying stuff,

2230
01:46:28,080 --> 01:46:29,520
because it's not my turn, I'm not participating now.

2231
01:46:29,520 --> 01:46:30,520
I'm waiting for my turn?

2232
01:46:30,520 --> 01:46:31,360
Yeah.

2233
01:46:31,360 --> 01:46:32,640
Like, what are we saying next?

2234
01:46:32,640 --> 01:46:33,480
What are we doing now?

2235
01:46:33,480 --> 01:46:34,880
What's going on?

2236
01:46:34,880 --> 01:46:35,880
You know, whatever.

2237
01:46:37,360 --> 01:46:39,320
That's because we misunderstood participation.

2238
01:46:39,320 --> 01:46:40,600
I'm not participating now, it's not my turn.

2239
01:46:40,600 --> 01:46:41,880
It's his turn, he's doing his thing.

2240
01:46:41,880 --> 01:46:43,720
When he's done, I'll participate, it'll be my turn,

2241
01:46:43,720 --> 01:46:44,760
and I'll say stuff.

2242
01:46:44,760 --> 01:46:47,200
We've conditioned ourselves to think of participation

2243
01:46:47,200 --> 01:46:48,800
as only singing.

2244
01:46:48,800 --> 01:46:49,640
Right.

2245
01:46:49,640 --> 01:46:51,520
Because we forgot all about the other things,

2246
01:46:51,520 --> 01:46:55,280
about the hearing, about the iconography,

2247
01:46:55,280 --> 01:46:57,040
the listening, the watching,

2248
01:46:57,040 --> 01:46:58,960
like all the perceptive pieces.

2249
01:46:58,960 --> 01:46:59,800
Right.

2250
01:47:02,200 --> 01:47:05,120
And it's ironic, because when we look at aesthetic texts,

2251
01:47:05,120 --> 01:47:10,120
for example, oftentimes we're told to be led to silence.

2252
01:47:12,600 --> 01:47:17,600
In a sense, this is liturgical silence.

2253
01:47:17,600 --> 01:47:21,120
Like malismatic hymns, when the chanter is reading

2254
01:47:21,120 --> 01:47:24,600
the psalm in Pascha, this is a form,

2255
01:47:24,600 --> 01:47:26,880
like he's the only one singing,

2256
01:47:26,880 --> 01:47:28,520
it doesn't mean I should just go pull up a book,

2257
01:47:28,520 --> 01:47:29,680
this is something I had to struggle with,

2258
01:47:29,680 --> 01:47:32,840
because I used to just read books during the psalm and stuff.

2259
01:47:34,280 --> 01:47:35,520
I don't just pull up a book,

2260
01:47:35,520 --> 01:47:37,640
I don't just speak to my friend, pull up my phone,

2261
01:47:37,640 --> 01:47:39,120
go to the bathroom, do whatever,

2262
01:47:39,120 --> 01:47:42,680
because this is an invitation to liturgical silence.

2263
01:47:42,680 --> 01:47:44,880
This is a silence, this is an invitation

2264
01:47:44,880 --> 01:47:47,960
to the highest step of the ascetic life.

2265
01:47:47,960 --> 01:47:48,800
Right.

2266
01:47:48,800 --> 01:47:50,800
The one that leads to illumination.

2267
01:47:50,800 --> 01:47:51,640
Right.

2268
01:47:52,480 --> 01:47:54,920
This is what I actually need to step into,

2269
01:47:54,920 --> 01:47:56,840
to be able to fully participate in the liturgy,

2270
01:47:56,840 --> 01:47:59,080
if liturgy is in fact union with God,

2271
01:47:59,080 --> 01:48:04,080
which is what parallels illumination in the aesthetic text.

2272
01:48:05,480 --> 01:48:10,480
So just to get the illumination, purification, perfection.

2273
01:48:10,480 --> 01:48:11,320
Yeah.

2274
01:48:11,320 --> 01:48:13,160
Correct, that's the three,

2275
01:48:13,160 --> 01:48:15,520
the three stages of the spiritual.

2276
01:48:15,520 --> 01:48:17,280
Yeah, if you follow some of the,

2277
01:48:17,280 --> 01:48:19,680
yeah, some of the, like the Evangrian for example,

2278
01:48:19,680 --> 01:48:20,880
like model.

2279
01:48:22,120 --> 01:48:23,880
But it all starts with silence.

2280
01:48:23,880 --> 01:48:24,720
Right.

2281
01:48:24,720 --> 01:48:26,040
It's like lead to silence, remove, you know,

2282
01:48:26,040 --> 01:48:31,040
have imageless thoughts if you're a Vegas or others.

2283
01:48:31,080 --> 01:48:33,840
Which is kind of different from Western spirituality,

2284
01:48:33,840 --> 01:48:35,920
where it encourages the imagination,

2285
01:48:35,920 --> 01:48:38,280
encourages, you know, imagining a heavenly scene,

2286
01:48:38,280 --> 01:48:40,400
picturing yourself within it,

2287
01:48:40,400 --> 01:48:42,520
and having conversations and having interactions.

2288
01:48:42,520 --> 01:48:43,360
Exactly.

2289
01:48:43,360 --> 01:48:45,360
Actually you'll find for that reasons,

2290
01:48:45,360 --> 01:48:47,520
oftentimes Eastern writers would say,

2291
01:48:47,520 --> 01:48:49,200
don't close your eyes in prayer,

2292
01:48:49,200 --> 01:48:50,320
because you're not imagining things.

2293
01:48:50,320 --> 01:48:51,160
Right.

2294
01:48:51,160 --> 01:48:52,120
You look at what's happening.

2295
01:48:52,120 --> 01:48:53,640
Like imagination is discouraged.

2296
01:48:53,640 --> 01:48:54,480
Exactly.

2297
01:48:54,480 --> 01:48:55,320
Yeah.

2298
01:48:55,320 --> 01:48:56,160
Orthodox spirituality.

2299
01:48:56,160 --> 01:48:57,880
And I haven't, you know, I haven't,

2300
01:49:00,160 --> 01:49:03,360
you know, maybe there's a place for it in the,

2301
01:49:03,360 --> 01:49:05,480
maybe within the Western sort of front of my,

2302
01:49:05,480 --> 01:49:06,880
it makes sense, I don't know.

2303
01:49:06,880 --> 01:49:09,240
But certainly in the Eastern one, it doesn't make sense.

2304
01:49:09,240 --> 01:49:12,600
Yeah, like overall, like it's pretty hard to find

2305
01:49:12,600 --> 01:49:15,520
in Orthodox spirituality encouragement

2306
01:49:15,520 --> 01:49:17,560
for this kind of engagement,

2307
01:49:17,560 --> 01:49:20,440
where imagination is kind of, you know,

2308
01:49:20,440 --> 01:49:24,960
given preeminence and the lead kind of role

2309
01:49:24,960 --> 01:49:26,440
in this whole participation.

2310
01:49:26,440 --> 01:49:27,280
Yeah.

2311
01:49:27,280 --> 01:49:29,080
I think in liturgy,

2312
01:49:30,560 --> 01:49:32,280
we're encouraged to fully participate.

2313
01:49:32,280 --> 01:49:35,160
That doesn't mean we should always be singing,

2314
01:49:35,160 --> 01:49:37,760
or like always, we can only participate if we're singing.

2315
01:49:37,760 --> 01:49:39,360
Or if all these things.

2316
01:49:39,360 --> 01:49:41,080
Or if I'm a deacon, I'm only participating

2317
01:49:41,080 --> 01:49:42,160
if I'm holding a microphone.

2318
01:49:42,160 --> 01:49:45,760
Or if I have a task, if I have the Shoria, for example,

2319
01:49:45,760 --> 01:49:47,440
or lighting the candle, like,

2320
01:49:47,440 --> 01:49:50,160
if I'm only participating when I'm participating,

2321
01:49:50,160 --> 01:49:52,400
you know, to echo St. Gregory,

2322
01:49:52,400 --> 01:49:53,640
then I'm not really participating.

2323
01:49:53,640 --> 01:49:54,480
Right.

2324
01:49:54,480 --> 01:49:55,320
Right.

2325
01:49:55,320 --> 01:49:56,960
If I'm, yeah.

2326
01:49:56,960 --> 01:49:58,600
But I would take it even a step further.

2327
01:49:58,600 --> 01:50:03,400
I don't think counseling women or children

2328
01:50:03,400 --> 01:50:08,160
is necessarily like, is a solution,

2329
01:50:08,160 --> 01:50:13,160
because it pushes that thinking forward,

2330
01:50:13,320 --> 01:50:16,960
that you only participate if you're taught,

2331
01:50:16,960 --> 01:50:20,320
if you have a liturgical role, a text.

2332
01:50:20,320 --> 01:50:22,960
Like, if we, historically speaking,

2333
01:50:22,960 --> 01:50:25,120
you know, the role of the deaconess,

2334
01:50:25,120 --> 01:50:26,920
there are certain moments in time

2335
01:50:26,920 --> 01:50:29,960
where there were deaconesses ordained,

2336
01:50:29,960 --> 01:50:33,560
and there was a function, right?

2337
01:50:33,560 --> 01:50:37,440
Once that function stopped being there,

2338
01:50:37,440 --> 01:50:38,720
that necessity went away.

2339
01:50:38,720 --> 01:50:43,720
Like, so it's always the rank that followed the function.

2340
01:50:44,320 --> 01:50:45,920
Like, at least in my understanding,

2341
01:50:45,920 --> 01:50:47,880
is the rank that followed the function.

2342
01:50:47,880 --> 01:50:49,560
Once the function is not there,

2343
01:50:49,560 --> 01:50:52,720
it's not just for the sake of, you know,

2344
01:50:52,720 --> 01:50:54,520
equality is the goal.

2345
01:50:54,520 --> 01:50:56,840
Because, you know, what about all the men

2346
01:50:56,840 --> 01:50:58,360
who aren't deacons?

2347
01:50:58,360 --> 01:50:59,440
Are they not participating?

2348
01:50:59,440 --> 01:51:03,920
Are they forever, you know, sentenced to live out

2349
01:51:03,920 --> 01:51:07,640
the rest of their days in the name of the church,

2350
01:51:07,640 --> 01:51:10,880
just sitting somewhere and waiting out the liturgy,

2351
01:51:10,880 --> 01:51:12,000
waiting out Abunah Fabbun,

2352
01:51:12,000 --> 01:51:13,760
until he wants to pray Gregorian?

2353
01:51:13,760 --> 01:51:18,680
You know, just, or if, you know, during sermon time,

2354
01:51:18,680 --> 01:51:20,920
it's like, you know, you sit down, shut down,

2355
01:51:20,920 --> 01:51:24,240
and just Abunah's gonna finish when he finishes, and...

2356
01:51:24,240 --> 01:51:29,240
Yeah, no, no, I totally agree about the point of that,

2357
01:51:29,240 --> 01:51:33,200
of role follows need.

2358
01:51:33,200 --> 01:51:34,760
Need, exactly.

2359
01:51:34,760 --> 01:51:35,600
That's what I was trying to highlight

2360
01:51:35,600 --> 01:51:36,800
with the doorkeeper and the whatever,

2361
01:51:36,800 --> 01:51:38,960
and there's different rules came up and down and whatever.

2362
01:51:38,960 --> 01:51:42,800
It was out of need that these things came up.

2363
01:51:43,880 --> 01:51:47,480
And it stops us from looking at today's needs

2364
01:51:47,480 --> 01:51:50,360
and saying just like, whatever needs were in the church

2365
01:51:50,360 --> 01:51:52,800
at one point in time, one point in history,

2366
01:51:52,800 --> 01:51:55,760
then we have to have that.

2367
01:51:55,760 --> 01:52:00,200
And different periods of history had different things

2368
01:52:00,200 --> 01:52:02,400
happening because of different needs, right?

2369
01:52:02,400 --> 01:52:05,440
It doesn't mean that if we're not praying in the catacombs,

2370
01:52:05,440 --> 01:52:08,440
we're not praying, we're not faithfully praying the liturgy.

2371
01:52:08,440 --> 01:52:10,320
Like, no, we can pray above ground,

2372
01:52:10,320 --> 01:52:12,560
we can pray in daylight,

2373
01:52:12,560 --> 01:52:17,280
we can have the address of the church published on Google

2374
01:52:17,280 --> 01:52:20,280
without fear of the Romans coming down and, you know,

2375
01:52:20,280 --> 01:52:21,440
persecuting us.

2376
01:52:21,440 --> 01:52:26,040
Yeah, it's, and I agree with you that, you know,

2377
01:52:26,040 --> 01:52:27,720
the solution isn't just to taunt your women.

2378
01:52:27,720 --> 01:52:30,720
I think the solution is to taunt your people who can sing.

2379
01:52:32,920 --> 01:52:36,040
It's like if the need is for people to sing,

2380
01:52:38,400 --> 01:52:40,600
and to sing with the understanding that, like,

2381
01:52:40,600 --> 01:52:42,560
you're not doing this on behalf of the people,

2382
01:52:42,560 --> 01:52:44,960
but with the people, with the full participation

2383
01:52:44,960 --> 01:52:45,800
of the people.

2384
01:52:45,800 --> 01:52:46,640
Exactly.

2385
01:52:46,640 --> 01:52:50,920
As soon as it becomes like you're outsourcing chanting.

2386
01:52:50,920 --> 01:52:51,760
Yeah.

2387
01:52:51,760 --> 01:52:52,880
Like we don't have to chant because we have these

2388
01:52:52,880 --> 01:52:54,640
professional chanters.

2389
01:52:54,640 --> 01:52:56,000
So why would I chant?

2390
01:52:56,000 --> 01:52:58,000
There's so much better at it.

2391
01:52:58,000 --> 01:53:01,040
No, no, God wants your imperfect chant.

2392
01:53:01,040 --> 01:53:02,960
God wants your imperfect words.

2393
01:53:02,960 --> 01:53:04,760
And that's why we should remove mics.

2394
01:53:06,080 --> 01:53:07,560
I think, I don't know.

2395
01:53:07,560 --> 01:53:10,600
You know what, St. Paul told, like, you want to pray,

2396
01:53:10,600 --> 01:53:12,120
but you don't even know the words,

2397
01:53:12,120 --> 01:53:13,560
and the spirit gives you the word.

2398
01:53:13,560 --> 01:53:14,400
It's fine.

2399
01:53:14,400 --> 01:53:17,280
Just come in with your imperfect words,

2400
01:53:17,280 --> 01:53:19,560
imperfect hymns, and imperfect chants,

2401
01:53:19,560 --> 01:53:21,120
and just say them.

2402
01:53:21,120 --> 01:53:21,960
100%.

2403
01:53:21,960 --> 01:53:25,240
But say them wholeheartedly, where your heart is,

2404
01:53:25,240 --> 01:53:26,800
there your treasure will be also,

2405
01:53:26,800 --> 01:53:27,880
and it will be fine.

2406
01:53:27,880 --> 01:53:28,720
That'd be perfect.

2407
01:53:28,720 --> 01:53:29,960
That's exactly it.

2408
01:53:29,960 --> 01:53:31,280
That's what we're looking for.

2409
01:53:31,280 --> 01:53:32,480
I completely agree.

2410
01:53:32,480 --> 01:53:33,400
I completely agree.

2411
01:53:33,400 --> 01:53:36,200
But I think once we, but I think still,

2412
01:53:36,200 --> 01:53:41,200
once we taunt your people based off of the need.

2413
01:53:42,920 --> 01:53:45,000
Like for instance, the need is for someone

2414
01:53:45,000 --> 01:53:48,320
to be musically inclined and lead the rest

2415
01:53:48,320 --> 01:53:50,600
of the congregation in chants.

2416
01:53:50,600 --> 01:53:52,440
So you get people who are musically inclined.

2417
01:53:52,440 --> 01:53:54,440
When you're taunting based off of this,

2418
01:53:56,240 --> 01:53:57,640
then it becomes meaningful.

2419
01:53:57,640 --> 01:54:00,520
And then you're able to then say,

2420
01:54:00,520 --> 01:54:04,360
okay, we have the need for someone

2421
01:54:04,360 --> 01:54:06,040
to cook the aghaibi after church.

2422
01:54:06,040 --> 01:54:07,040
Maybe that will be a role.

2423
01:54:07,040 --> 01:54:08,400
Maybe, and I'm not saying, okay,

2424
01:54:08,400 --> 01:54:11,400
we'll come up with like taunting prayers and whatever.

2425
01:54:11,400 --> 01:54:13,400
But that's the idea.

2426
01:54:13,400 --> 01:54:14,840
That's how these came to be.

2427
01:54:16,520 --> 01:54:18,040
From the beginning, it's like there was a need

2428
01:54:18,040 --> 01:54:18,880
for people to chant.

2429
01:54:18,880 --> 01:54:20,440
So people are like, okay, these people can chant.

2430
01:54:20,440 --> 01:54:21,360
Let them chant.

2431
01:54:21,360 --> 01:54:24,280
Or they can sort of lead the people in chanting.

2432
01:54:24,280 --> 01:54:26,120
And the same thing, like, okay, we could say,

2433
01:54:26,120 --> 01:54:29,960
you know, the kitchen needs people to help us cook.

2434
01:54:29,960 --> 01:54:31,120
Okay, let's do that.

2435
01:54:31,120 --> 01:54:32,560
The church needs to be cleaned.

2436
01:54:32,560 --> 01:54:34,680
You know, maybe we should use the subdeacons

2437
01:54:34,680 --> 01:54:36,800
as the subdeacons we're supposed to be used.

2438
01:54:36,800 --> 01:54:38,760
Clean the church, fill the candles, do whatever,

2439
01:54:38,760 --> 01:54:39,600
make the urbon.

2440
01:54:41,560 --> 01:54:43,040
Maybe we should use the deacons as the deacons

2441
01:54:43,040 --> 01:54:46,320
which used to be sort of designed to be used.

2442
01:54:46,320 --> 01:54:49,280
But, you know, it's the arms of the church

2443
01:54:49,280 --> 01:54:52,160
that goes to the margins and extends the liturgy

2444
01:54:52,160 --> 01:54:53,000
to those people.

2445
01:54:53,000 --> 01:54:54,520
Like maybe the deacons should be the ones

2446
01:54:54,520 --> 01:54:57,040
going to the prisons, going to the orphanages,

2447
01:54:57,040 --> 01:54:59,440
going to the hospitals.

2448
01:54:59,440 --> 01:55:00,840
The hospitals.

2449
01:55:00,840 --> 01:55:03,920
Exactly, and taking the eucharists to those people.

2450
01:55:03,920 --> 01:55:05,680
That's how the deaconate began.

2451
01:55:05,680 --> 01:55:07,040
And that's one of the reasons actually

2452
01:55:07,040 --> 01:55:09,920
why you had the deaconesses, to like visit women.

2453
01:55:09,920 --> 01:55:11,240
Yeah, and widows and-

2454
01:55:11,240 --> 01:55:12,400
Exactly, widows and stuff, yeah.

2455
01:55:12,400 --> 01:55:13,240
Like you had-

2456
01:55:13,240 --> 01:55:14,320
And women's houses and-

2457
01:55:14,320 --> 01:55:15,160
Precisely.

2458
01:55:15,160 --> 01:55:18,560
Like actually Ibn Tureik, in his list of orders,

2459
01:55:18,560 --> 01:55:19,840
he has deaconesses.

2460
01:55:19,840 --> 01:55:22,600
And he includes the roles and all this stuff.

2461
01:55:22,600 --> 01:55:24,480
In the 12th century, that's very late.

2462
01:55:24,480 --> 01:55:25,320
Right.

2463
01:55:25,320 --> 01:55:27,320
Like, personally, until I read that,

2464
01:55:27,320 --> 01:55:29,080
I thought it was gone long before.

2465
01:55:29,080 --> 01:55:29,920
Yeah.

2466
01:55:31,560 --> 01:55:35,520
So yeah, like I think if we stop, quote unquote,

2467
01:55:35,520 --> 01:55:38,920
clericalizing all these roles,

2468
01:55:38,920 --> 01:55:42,200
if we start understanding them as different ways

2469
01:55:42,200 --> 01:55:47,200
that the body loves and extends itself to its members

2470
01:55:48,000 --> 01:55:49,520
and to the world as a whole,

2471
01:55:49,520 --> 01:55:52,960
then maybe we can begin sort of adjusting

2472
01:55:52,960 --> 01:55:57,960
and optimally performing these things.

2473
01:55:58,840 --> 01:56:01,680
Maybe the church can really then be able to

2474
01:56:02,880 --> 01:56:07,880
live in the margins as she might've done and does.

2475
01:56:07,880 --> 01:56:10,720
Right.

2476
01:56:10,720 --> 01:56:12,000
Like we do that very well in Egypt.

2477
01:56:12,000 --> 01:56:14,760
Maybe we could improve that here.

2478
01:56:14,760 --> 01:56:15,880
And maybe that might be a way

2479
01:56:15,880 --> 01:56:17,880
that we might be able to do this.

2480
01:56:17,880 --> 01:56:19,440
Right.

2481
01:56:19,440 --> 01:56:24,440
So with all this said, any concluding remarks,

2482
01:56:26,680 --> 01:56:30,040
anything, any advice for young up and comers,

2483
01:56:30,040 --> 01:56:35,040
any sort of encouragement for people who,

2484
01:56:35,040 --> 01:56:40,040
let's say, for lack of a better term,

2485
01:56:40,120 --> 01:56:43,520
middle-aged individuals who are well established

2486
01:56:43,520 --> 01:56:48,040
in their careers, is studying theology

2487
01:56:48,040 --> 01:56:50,360
a thing that they should be looking into?

2488
01:56:50,360 --> 01:56:51,600
Is it doable?

2489
01:56:51,600 --> 01:56:56,600
Is it only for a certain group of people

2490
01:56:56,920 --> 01:56:58,680
who have a certain kind of inclination,

2491
01:56:58,680 --> 01:57:00,080
or people who like to read,

2492
01:57:00,080 --> 01:57:02,480
or people who like to read history?

2493
01:57:02,480 --> 01:57:05,960
I think there's different, like,

2494
01:57:05,960 --> 01:57:09,480
I don't think there's a single way of doing even sort of

2495
01:57:09,480 --> 01:57:11,760
the quote unquote academic way of theology.

2496
01:57:11,760 --> 01:57:13,920
Like, you know, there's the,

2497
01:57:14,920 --> 01:57:17,000
like the MTS and the MDIF, for instance,

2498
01:57:17,000 --> 01:57:19,360
are understood to be vocational degrees.

2499
01:57:19,360 --> 01:57:21,680
Like they're not designed to be super duper academic

2500
01:57:21,680 --> 01:57:22,520
or anything.

2501
01:57:25,560 --> 01:57:27,520
They're not designed for beginners.

2502
01:57:27,520 --> 01:57:30,480
Yeah, they're designed, actually they're called colloquially

2503
01:57:30,480 --> 01:57:32,280
sort of basic degrees, because in Ontario,

2504
01:57:32,280 --> 01:57:35,720
you know, they don't require you to be,

2505
01:57:35,720 --> 01:57:37,960
to have done the previous degree in the same,

2506
01:57:37,960 --> 01:57:40,520
in the field, whereas, you know, the MA,

2507
01:57:40,520 --> 01:57:43,840
THM, Doctor of Ministry and PhD require you to do,

2508
01:57:43,840 --> 01:57:45,480
so they call them advanced degrees.

2509
01:57:45,480 --> 01:57:48,680
But the basic degrees, the MTS and the MDIF,

2510
01:57:48,680 --> 01:57:49,640
don't require that.

2511
01:57:49,640 --> 01:57:51,640
And so they, they, they cater for this.

2512
01:57:52,880 --> 01:57:55,120
In my opinion, I don't think they're,

2513
01:57:56,080 --> 01:57:58,360
they're strictly, I don't think their,

2514
01:57:58,360 --> 01:58:01,160
their goals should be strictly going into academia

2515
01:58:01,160 --> 01:58:02,440
or something.

2516
01:58:04,520 --> 01:58:08,760
I think they're beneficial in many ways, in my opinion,

2517
01:58:08,760 --> 01:58:10,760
but I still don't think they're required.

2518
01:58:10,760 --> 01:58:12,120
I think they're encouraged.

2519
01:58:12,120 --> 01:58:13,480
Like, obviously, like this is my opinion.

2520
01:58:13,480 --> 01:58:15,920
I don't know, I don't know anything.

2521
01:58:15,920 --> 01:58:20,800
But, you know, it's contextual, I think.

2522
01:58:20,800 --> 01:58:22,320
Father of Confession, I think, was my,

2523
01:58:22,320 --> 01:58:25,800
was my guide on taking it up.

2524
01:58:25,800 --> 01:58:30,480
But I think, regardless of, of,

2525
01:58:33,240 --> 01:58:35,320
doing something like that or not,

2526
01:58:37,800 --> 01:58:42,000
it's required, it's, it's, it's important for the church

2527
01:58:42,000 --> 01:58:46,280
as a community to, to, to, to take this,

2528
01:58:46,280 --> 01:58:50,480
I think, more seriously in the sense of being aware

2529
01:58:50,480 --> 01:58:55,480
of, of, of her theology, her, her, for lack of a better word,

2530
01:58:56,520 --> 01:58:59,440
her ritual, her, her movements, what she does

2531
01:58:59,440 --> 01:59:01,840
and, and how she does them.

2532
01:59:01,840 --> 01:59:05,040
Because these things are ultimately practical, I think.

2533
01:59:06,520 --> 01:59:09,320
And, and to think of them otherwise is

2534
01:59:09,320 --> 01:59:10,400
to not understand them.

2535
01:59:10,400 --> 01:59:12,720
Like, I think it's often the people who are,

2536
01:59:12,720 --> 01:59:15,080
who are not studying theology, who thinks theology

2537
01:59:15,080 --> 01:59:17,240
are strictly like a philosophical thing.

2538
01:59:17,240 --> 01:59:20,600
Again, this, and this is like a terrible disruption

2539
01:59:20,600 --> 01:59:22,800
of the word, like philosophy used to be a good thing.

2540
01:59:24,160 --> 01:59:26,000
It's pejorative now, it's like an insult.

2541
01:59:26,000 --> 01:59:28,960
Yeah, now it's like, oh, it's like, it's like,

2542
01:59:28,960 --> 01:59:31,040
people think of it now as a strictly intellectual thing.

2543
01:59:31,040 --> 01:59:31,880
Yeah.

2544
01:59:31,880 --> 01:59:34,000
Where it shouldn't be, and it's not.

2545
01:59:35,720 --> 01:59:40,720
So maybe, maybe it's with a sort of a sense of a reorientation

2546
01:59:40,840 --> 01:59:43,360
of how we perceive our theology as something enacted

2547
01:59:43,360 --> 01:59:47,560
and done, maybe it might be helpful.

2548
01:59:47,560 --> 01:59:50,520
And ultimately, you know, I go back to St. Macary's,

2549
01:59:50,520 --> 01:59:53,320
you know, who, the one who reads, let him read

2550
01:59:53,320 --> 01:59:55,200
for the, for the body, for the community.

2551
01:59:55,200 --> 01:59:57,760
The one who writes, let him write and read for the community.

2552
01:59:57,760 --> 02:00:00,320
The one who, who, who labors and does whatever.

2553
02:00:00,320 --> 02:00:02,760
Anyone who does something, he does it for the church.

2554
02:00:05,120 --> 02:00:10,120
So it's, it's, yeah, it shouldn't and isn't

2555
02:00:10,120 --> 02:00:13,200
something individualistic, be something individualistic

2556
02:00:13,200 --> 02:00:16,760
and it shouldn't and isn't something ethereal,

2557
02:00:16,760 --> 02:00:20,520
intellectual only, it's, it's, it's rather something communal

2558
02:00:20,520 --> 02:00:25,080
and liturgical and embodied and enacted and done

2559
02:00:25,080 --> 02:00:26,960
in every sense of the word, I think.

2560
02:00:26,960 --> 02:00:28,600
And for the benefit of the whole church.

2561
02:00:28,600 --> 02:00:29,720
Yeah, it should be.

2562
02:00:29,720 --> 02:00:30,560
It should be.

2563
02:00:30,560 --> 02:00:32,480
If done right.

2564
02:00:33,400 --> 02:00:34,680
Beautiful words.

2565
02:00:34,680 --> 02:00:37,200
So with that, I'd like to thank you, Karim,

2566
02:00:37,200 --> 02:00:44,200
for all the insights and awesome discussion and conversation.

2567
02:00:44,280 --> 02:00:45,480
Thank you so much, Karim.

2568
02:00:46,640 --> 02:00:49,040
I hope you enjoyed listening to this episode.

2569
02:00:49,040 --> 02:00:51,160
For questions, comments, feedback,

2570
02:00:51,160 --> 02:00:53,320
or if you'd like to make a suggestion on a topic

2571
02:00:53,320 --> 02:00:55,760
for a future episode, please feel free to reach out

2572
02:00:55,760 --> 02:00:57,120
to the email in the bio.

2573
02:00:57,120 --> 02:00:59,520
And don't forget to subscribe to get a notification

2574
02:00:59,520 --> 02:01:01,040
when new episodes drop.

2575
02:01:01,040 --> 02:01:09,040
God bless you and have a great day.