WEBVTT

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If you want to learn more about the topics of

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today's episode, visit the podcast website at

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naturessecretservice .com. Thanks for listening.

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OK, people, listen up. Here we go. This is Nature's

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Secret Service, the podcast that puts you in

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the room with the men and women of wildlife law

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enforcement. I'm your host, Ed Newcomer. And

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today our guest is Doug McKenna. former special

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agent with the US Fish and Wildlife Service,

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Doug actually got his start in public service

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working for the Youth Conservation Corps. I think

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Doug might be the first person I've ever met

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who I can confirm worked for the Youth Conservation

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Corps. It's still a project or a program that's

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around. It's a great way for young people to

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get involved, particularly with conservation

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issues. It's a great place for people to get

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a start with kind of a professional career. He

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then went on to work for the US Forest Service

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as a wildland firefighter, and then became a

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Montana State Game Warden. And he did that job

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before he was hired to be a US Fish and Wildlife

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Service Special Agent. And then he did 25 years

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as a Special Agent for the US Fish and Wildlife

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Service, which is awesome. Most of his experience

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was in the Western United States, a lot of it

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in the Southwest. He worked in Colorado, Utah,

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Texas, New Mexico, and Arizona. He's here today

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to talk to us about a Mexican gray wolf case,

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which is going to be great. So obviously, it

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was while he was working in the Southwest. Doug,

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thank you so much for being on the podcast. It's

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great to see you again, and I appreciate you

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being on. Yeah, thank you. It's a true honor.

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I appreciate the invite. Thank you. Doug, you

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and I, we never worked together in the field

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as agents, because we were in two different regions.

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And we just, for whatever reasons, we crossed

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paths during training and stuff. But we never

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worked in the same region on a case together.

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But we did have a fantastic experience working

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together. Not, I guess, more than 10 years ago

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now. But we both went on an assignment to Indonesia

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together. And that was one of the most memorable

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experiences of my career. I don't know if you

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agree that you had a good time on that trip,

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but I sure did. No, I did. It's something I always

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remember. It was the ultimate experience. It

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really was. And I did enjoy working with you.

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You know, we were in the jungles of Sumatra and

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the big city of Jakarta. And I think about it

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often. I really enjoyed it. And I actually learned

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a lot. I really did over there. Yeah, so did

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I. And I am the same. I reminisce to myself about

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that a lot. And I tell stories about that trip

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to other people quite a bit. So listeners know

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we were over there to do kind of a survey on

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Indonesia's capacity to respond to wildlife trafficking.

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So we weren't working on a case. We just were

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over there talking to different. members of Indonesian

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law enforcement. So we were all over the country

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and it's a country of what, 17 ,000 islands.

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So obviously we didn't head every island, but

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we were in Jakarta, we were in Sulawesi, we were

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all over. Do you remember, do you remember that

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ranger station where we stayed? We in a remote

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part of the jungle, we stayed with some rangers

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for a night or two. Do you remember that? I do.

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I do remember that. I think they were, they were

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protecting the Sumatra Rhino. especially from

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the people from Vietnam. Remember, they were

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coming over to poach them and take their horns

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and we stayed in the jungles with them. And I

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remember that sleeping on a reed mat in a little,

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I wouldn't even call it a cabin. No, you could

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see moonlight through the side of the cabin.

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Yeah, exactly. I don't know if you remember this

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part, but I remember that laying on those grass

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mats, totally dark, you know. And you could hear

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the sound of insects in the jungle. And all of

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a sudden, just kind of the time you and I were

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talking, but then we kind of got quiet, ready

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to go to sleep. And a giant freaking beetle flew

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through the room. It sounded like an Apache attack

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helicopter going through the room. I do remember

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that, yes. All I remember is there was this moment

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of silence. This thing buzzed through the room.

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There's this moment of silence because it landed

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somewhere. And you said, it was just quiet. And

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you just said, What was that? We just, we just

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both burst out laughing, but I remember thinking

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the whole night, where is this thing going to

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land? You know? No, that's true. And a lot of

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things in that jungle, of course could eat you.

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And I just remember the huge blood suckers and

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everything else. Oh yeah. Leaches and whatnot.

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What an experience. Yes. Very different than

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the, uh, environs you were used to working in

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the Southwestern United States. That's for sure.

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So, okay, one of the fondest memories I have

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from my career as a service special agent was

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sleeping in a, you know. a shack that was about

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to fall down and being worried about giant beetles

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flying through the air. Anyway, we're talking

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with you today, Doug, about Mexican gray wolves.

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That's kind of where we are in our season three

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about wolves. And just so listeners refresh their

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memory, Mexican gray wolves were reintroduced

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to Arizona in the spring of 1998. Where were

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you stationed in spring of 1998? Well, let's

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see. In 1998, I was stationed in a substation

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of El Paso, which was Santa Teresa, New Mexico,

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and that was a brand new customs facility. It

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was an expansion of border facilities that went

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into New Mexico, so. In essence, I was still

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under the El Paso office, but I was, I was kind

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of building a new program over there in the New

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Mexico border country. Right. So you were pretty

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far south. Yeah, I was at that time. There was

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a, I think there was an agent in a supervisor

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in Albuquerque. And I think that was it. I want

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to say there was probably two, maybe three agents

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in New Mexico. two or three agents over in Arizona.

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So there wasn't a lot of us. So one of the big

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things that happened in 1998, of course, we assumed

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the responsibility of the enforcement of any

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mortality or wolf mortality that would occur

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either in Arizona or New Mexico. Right. Right.

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Yeah. With the reintroduction. Yeah. Right. So,

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but so my listeners have a sense on what, what

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does an agent do in that duty station? What you're

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down there near the border. So typically you're

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not working wolf cases, what would you normally

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be working on down in a station like that? Some

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of the huge things that we did that we got involved

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in was parrot smuggling from Mexico and Latin

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America and South America. And the reason why

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it was so important is because a lot of them

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carry Newcastle's disease. So it was a huge priority

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with the Fish and Wildlife Service because any

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outbreak of that would decimate the poultry industry

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in the United States. And so a lot of our time

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was spent either doing undercover work in that

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regard or investigations on the smuggling of

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parrots, which happened quite a bit, right? Yeah.

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I mean, that was 98. I came on in 2002 and was

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sent to Los Angeles. And I remember it seemed

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like just about every agent in the Southwest

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and Southern California was working on either

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directly working on a parrot smuggling case or

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was supporting another agent. I came on as a

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brand new person. And the first thing I did,

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I was assigned to do is support other agents

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who were working parrot smuggling cases. A lot

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of with illegal sales of migratory birds down

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in that portion of the country was a big deal

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too. There were a lot of songbirds that were

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being put in the commercial arena where people

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would buy them to take them home as pets. And

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so that was another big thing that we did. And

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of course, Uh, you know, we did a lot of what

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was called Lacey at cases with the big game animals

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such as elk and big trophy deer coming out, uh,

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coming out illegally, coming out of New Mexico

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in the Texas. We spent a lot of time that because

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the state officers couldn't cross state lines.

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So they would refer those cases to us and we

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would look at those as what we call Lacey at

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violence. And that was another, that was a big

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part of our work. Yeah. And typically I always

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describe that, you know, special agents with

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Fish and Wildlife Service, we assist the states

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with big game cross border or interstate movement,

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a big game, illegally taking big game in the

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same way that the FBI might assist local law

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enforcement with stolen vehicles or anything

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that crosses state lines. Because the Lacey Act,

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once you cross a state line, it becomes a federal

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offense. And we can help the states. Yeah. because

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we have that jurisdiction and they don't. Absolutely.

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And another big priority was contaminant investigations

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at that time. And with the potash industry and

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the silver and gold mines, there was a lot of

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take of migratory birds that were flying through

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that would get, in essence, poisoned or die from

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contaminants. And we did a lot of work in that

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regard with a lot of major copper companies and

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potash companies and such. Oh my gosh, Doug,

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the potash issue makes me sigh because I think

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that is definitely something we should get into

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in season four maybe of this podcast with at

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least one episode. But it's heartbreaking. What

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happens to migratory birds when they land on

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these catch ponds at potash mining facilities?

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is it'll break your heart when you see the dead

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birds encased in salts, and it's awful. No, absolutely.

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And to see how they die in some of the pH levels

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on some of the silver and gold mines and things

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like that. Yeah, they land on water, and they're

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burned before they can even take off. So that's

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one that really has always bothered me as an

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agent, because they're hard cases to make against

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those companies. So basically, you're down closer

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to the border. You're working on cross -border

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smuggling, trafficking stuff. How far away from

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the release areas are you? Yeah, where I was

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stationed was three or four hours. That was all

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to the north of me. And of course, that was a

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priority with the, at that time, the division

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of law enforcement under the service because

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it was part of a recovery effort. And, you know,

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that was one of the highest priorities the region

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had. So we were all pretty much advised that

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if assistance was needed, we would be called

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to do that. You'd make the drive if you had to,

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right? Yeah, so that brings us to October 1998,

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and you received a report about a dead Mexican

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wolf being found. Tell us about that. What was

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the report? What was the information you got

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initially in October 1998? Well, at that time,

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during the release of Mexican gray wolves, every

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one of them was fitted with a radio collar. And

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so what the biologists would do is they'd follow

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they'd follow the wolves with their radio gear

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and their antennas and they would mark the locations

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of the wolves and of course if a wolf didn't

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move for a certain amount of time it would send

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out what was called a mortality signal. If it

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sent out a mortality signal the biologist would

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try to see if they could get eyes on it or what

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but the service agents would be notified of that.

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And it was our job to respond, especially if

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a mortality signal was being heard. And the reason

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for that was if a wolf did die, then we would

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assess a crime scene and start collecting evidence

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in that regard to see, number one, what it died

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from. And if it was shot or killed illegally,

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then we would pursue a criminal investigation.

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Awesome. So when you got this report, what did

00:12:54.399 --> 00:12:57.100
you do? What's the next step? Yeah, I got the

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report. And back in the mid 90s or late 90s,

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of course, the states didn't want a lot of their

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people involved in the wolf reintroduction thing.

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So it all kind of went back at that time, went

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back on the feds or the Fish and Wildlife Service

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to work on. And so what happened is, a biologist

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got a wolf mortality signal in the upper part

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of the Gila, which is part of the Gila wilderness,

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which is on this. This area was on the Arizona,

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New Mexico state line. So the biologist was trying

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to get a hold of someone because we were supposed

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to report as soon as we could upon a notification.

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And there was actually a state. New Mexico game

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and fish guy on scene who had a big interest

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in wolves who later became a wolf biologist,

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but at the time was a conservation officer. He

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called me also. So I said I would respond. So

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I, I drove up, probably took me three or four

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hours to get up there. It's almost midnight.

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That's, that's a mountain road. Why near than

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heck. And I will tell you this story is before

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the wolves were released, it was my job. to contact

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the sheriff's offices of the different counties.

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And this occurred in Catron County where I went

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in to see the sheriff to tell him we're going

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to have public meetings and we might need a little

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bit of help if they get out of hand because everything

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was so polarized with people. We might. need

00:14:29.740 --> 00:14:32.519
them for security help. And another thing is

00:14:32.519 --> 00:14:34.539
just to let him know that this was all going

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to occur. And his name was Bob Wellborn, who

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has passed away. I remember he pointed down the

00:14:40.700 --> 00:14:42.940
hall and he said, if you ever come into my county,

00:14:43.279 --> 00:14:49.620
I'm going to put you in there. Wow. So unbelievable.

00:14:49.879 --> 00:14:54.080
As I'm in a hurry in my government unmarked vehicle

00:14:54.080 --> 00:14:57.240
to get up there. I knew I couldn't get a speeding

00:14:57.240 --> 00:15:03.080
ticket. The whole wolf reintroduction thing is

00:15:03.080 --> 00:15:08.059
kind of riddled with stories like that. Normally,

00:15:08.519 --> 00:15:11.100
fish and wildlife agents build very good relationships

00:15:11.100 --> 00:15:13.080
with the local law enforcement that they work

00:15:13.080 --> 00:15:16.639
with, whether it's LAPD or the small town local

00:15:16.639 --> 00:15:19.620
sheriff. We usually never have a problem. But

00:15:19.620 --> 00:15:21.940
for some reason, when it comes to endangered

00:15:21.940 --> 00:15:26.610
species work, sometimes We do run into these,

00:15:26.750 --> 00:15:29.009
particularly in small rural areas, these sheriffs

00:15:29.009 --> 00:15:33.750
who really take this, I don't know what the right

00:15:33.750 --> 00:15:36.330
word is. I guess it's just a real hard -headed

00:15:36.330 --> 00:15:40.250
position. And they'll almost tell you right to

00:15:40.250 --> 00:15:41.909
their face that they're going to violate the

00:15:41.909 --> 00:15:44.809
law. They're going to obstruct your investigation.

00:15:44.909 --> 00:15:46.250
They're going to violate the law. They might

00:15:46.250 --> 00:15:48.210
even try to arrest you if you come into their

00:15:48.210 --> 00:15:51.730
county, which is absurd. It must have been frustrating

00:15:51.730 --> 00:15:54.620
to hear that. Well, I knew a little bit about

00:15:54.620 --> 00:15:57.019
Bob Wellborn because I had spent time up in the

00:15:57.019 --> 00:15:59.379
Gila on some other cases that were non related

00:15:59.379 --> 00:16:02.519
with the wolf. And really, that's what it all

00:16:02.519 --> 00:16:06.039
ends up being is your your personal connections

00:16:06.039 --> 00:16:08.500
with people, even though they might be against

00:16:08.500 --> 00:16:11.259
the saying endangered species reintroduction

00:16:11.259 --> 00:16:15.070
program. He said that. But later on. he got to

00:16:15.070 --> 00:16:17.929
know me and I guess he tolerated me and you know

00:16:17.929 --> 00:16:20.629
that the state knew me personally so they did

00:16:20.629 --> 00:16:22.870
favors to me and I remember they would say to

00:16:22.870 --> 00:16:25.830
me all the time is the New Mexico guys would

00:16:25.830 --> 00:16:28.210
say don't tell Santa Fe because that was the

00:16:28.210 --> 00:16:31.370
headquarters and the Arizona guys would tell

00:16:31.370 --> 00:16:34.750
me Doug don't tell Phoenix so we kind of had

00:16:34.750 --> 00:16:37.669
this hidden relationship which really helped

00:16:37.669 --> 00:16:41.830
and That's all just interaction as you as an

00:16:41.830 --> 00:16:43.789
agent with people that you're working with. Yeah,

00:16:43.830 --> 00:16:46.970
yeah. Yeah, and for sure. That all changed over

00:16:46.970 --> 00:16:49.509
time. But back in the 90s, that's the way it

00:16:49.509 --> 00:16:52.350
was. Yeah, for sure. Relationships between fish

00:16:52.350 --> 00:16:54.690
and wildlife agents and state game wardens, local,

00:16:54.809 --> 00:16:57.889
is usually really good. And I want to talk about

00:16:57.889 --> 00:17:00.789
that a little bit. You mentioned that the state

00:17:00.789 --> 00:17:04.910
of New Mexico really was reluctant to have their

00:17:04.910 --> 00:17:07.559
wardens assisting Fish and Wildlife Service with

00:17:07.559 --> 00:17:10.079
this. Why? Why was that? Did you have any idea?

00:17:10.400 --> 00:17:13.980
I just think they were afraid of the ranchers

00:17:13.980 --> 00:17:16.539
and the public perception of the people that

00:17:16.539 --> 00:17:20.039
were against the program. So politically, I think

00:17:20.039 --> 00:17:23.759
it even went up to the politicians in the state

00:17:23.759 --> 00:17:26.440
that weren't really supportive of the program.

00:17:26.460 --> 00:17:28.460
And of course, they got to go in front of the

00:17:28.460 --> 00:17:31.700
state legislature to get funding and programs.

00:17:33.349 --> 00:17:36.049
like New Mexico sponsored by the hunters, by

00:17:36.049 --> 00:17:39.109
the elk, deer, antelope hunters. And so they

00:17:39.109 --> 00:17:41.569
were getting a little bit of negative feedback

00:17:41.569 --> 00:17:44.849
from the sportsmen. So I think it puts, at that

00:17:44.849 --> 00:17:47.250
time, put them in a pretty difficult position.

00:17:47.569 --> 00:17:50.170
It sounds like the local wardens were like, eh,

00:17:50.349 --> 00:17:51.730
we're going to work with them anyway. We're just

00:17:51.730 --> 00:17:53.990
not going to talk about it. I will tell you this,

00:17:54.289 --> 00:17:57.930
is a local warden who was a friend of mine used

00:17:57.930 --> 00:18:01.700
to tell me, a poacher is a poacher. Yeah. Whether

00:18:01.700 --> 00:18:04.259
they're taking elk or deer, Doug, or antelope

00:18:04.259 --> 00:18:08.019
or birds, taking wolves, the poacher is a poacher.

00:18:08.160 --> 00:18:10.440
Poacher is a poacher. Exactly. Yeah. If they'll

00:18:10.440 --> 00:18:12.000
shoot at one thing illegally, they'll probably

00:18:12.000 --> 00:18:14.039
shoot at anything else illegally. Which ended

00:18:14.039 --> 00:18:16.599
up being true, but we can talk about it. Yeah,

00:18:16.599 --> 00:18:19.019
yeah, it often it is true. Yeah, it often is

00:18:19.019 --> 00:18:21.380
true. Okay, so you mentioned you got up there

00:18:21.380 --> 00:18:23.160
late because it's a long hour drive. I mean,

00:18:23.180 --> 00:18:25.019
it was like midnight before you got up there.

00:18:25.019 --> 00:18:26.839
It was midnight. And I remember I pulled up and

00:18:26.839 --> 00:18:29.140
of course, you know, the banter that you have

00:18:29.140 --> 00:18:31.660
with your fellow law enforcement or biologists

00:18:31.660 --> 00:18:37.319
is I've come at you so long. Exactly. Got up

00:18:37.319 --> 00:18:39.880
there. And actually, the guy from New Mexico

00:18:39.880 --> 00:18:44.880
helped me a lot. The CEO, he brought in his supervisor

00:18:44.880 --> 00:18:48.559
was there. And all three of us started working

00:18:48.559 --> 00:18:52.279
kind of a crime scene kind of thing. Cause we

00:18:52.279 --> 00:18:54.619
walk us through that. What do you, what are you

00:18:54.619 --> 00:18:57.400
doing? It's dark. Would you walk us through what

00:18:57.400 --> 00:18:59.099
it's like to do a crime scene like that out in

00:18:59.099 --> 00:19:01.740
the woods? Yeah, we taped it all off, asked the

00:19:01.740 --> 00:19:05.019
biologist to back off a little bit, walked up,

00:19:05.299 --> 00:19:07.900
but tried to be real careful where we walk, stay

00:19:07.900 --> 00:19:11.279
off the road. Cause this, this wolf that was

00:19:11.440 --> 00:19:14.900
had died was near a road down a hill from a road.

00:19:15.460 --> 00:19:20.039
And so walked in, looked at it, saw some things

00:19:20.039 --> 00:19:22.839
that seemed kind of out of ordinary. The snout

00:19:22.839 --> 00:19:26.220
of the wolf looked like it was pressed down into

00:19:26.220 --> 00:19:30.099
the ground, which told me that it probably didn't

00:19:30.099 --> 00:19:32.660
die there, or if it did, someone manipulated

00:19:32.660 --> 00:19:36.200
it. So anyways, you start taking pictures. And

00:19:36.200 --> 00:19:38.759
then we kind of take everything off, ask everybody

00:19:38.759 --> 00:19:42.069
to go home. had someone stay there that night

00:19:42.069 --> 00:19:45.549
and then decided, you know what, we'll reconvene.

00:19:45.589 --> 00:19:47.849
I think I stayed up there that night, but we'll

00:19:47.849 --> 00:19:50.349
wait for the sun to come up because it's really

00:19:50.349 --> 00:19:53.609
hard to do in the middle of the night when it's

00:19:53.609 --> 00:19:56.390
dark and on a mountain with a flashlight. So

00:19:56.390 --> 00:20:00.490
we regrouped first thing in the morning and started

00:20:00.490 --> 00:20:06.029
to pick up what we thought was pieces of me.

00:20:06.119 --> 00:20:10.279
a beer can here or there, cigarette butts, anything

00:20:10.279 --> 00:20:13.480
we could do, roll the wolf over, look for bullet

00:20:13.480 --> 00:20:16.400
holes, look, well, maybe it was shot over here,

00:20:16.420 --> 00:20:18.700
but none of that at that time made any sense.

00:20:19.319 --> 00:20:21.359
Interesting. Then the next thing it decided to

00:20:21.359 --> 00:20:25.059
do is after documenting what we call the crime

00:20:25.059 --> 00:20:29.640
scene, it decided that who would know about this

00:20:29.640 --> 00:20:32.359
in the middle of nowhere? Now, there was an elk

00:20:32.359 --> 00:20:36.529
hunt underway I think it was a muzzle loader

00:20:36.529 --> 00:20:40.369
type elk hunt in unit, in the unit 15 or whatever.

00:20:40.809 --> 00:20:45.769
So I decided to start contacting hunters and

00:20:45.769 --> 00:20:47.849
all the camps that surrounded where the dead.

00:20:48.049 --> 00:20:51.150
Nice. Good thinking. Before we get to that, Doug,

00:20:51.190 --> 00:20:54.450
let me just ask you. So at the scene, did you

00:20:54.450 --> 00:20:57.390
see anything on the wolf carcass you mentioned

00:20:57.390 --> 00:20:59.650
shot? Did you see evidence that it might've been

00:20:59.650 --> 00:21:03.349
shot? Uh, it looked to me like there, there was,

00:21:03.430 --> 00:21:05.809
there was a hole in it. Right. Uh -huh. Okay.

00:21:06.029 --> 00:21:10.150
So I assume it was a small, small hole, which

00:21:10.150 --> 00:21:12.329
at that time we were kind of learning that a

00:21:12.329 --> 00:21:14.910
lot of the wool Mexican gray wolves were being

00:21:14.910 --> 00:21:17.890
shot with 17 caliber rifles, which is a smaller

00:21:17.890 --> 00:21:21.250
caliber, a little, little up from a 22. And I

00:21:21.250 --> 00:21:24.450
really kind of assumed that had been shot with

00:21:24.450 --> 00:21:27.789
that. Interesting. So we bag, we bag the wolf

00:21:27.789 --> 00:21:30.500
up. I made arrangements to get it to Albuquerque,

00:21:30.660 --> 00:21:32.940
because the first thing I needed was to get it

00:21:32.940 --> 00:21:36.960
to the forensics lab in Ashland, Oregon, so that

00:21:36.960 --> 00:21:40.000
an examiner could tell me really how it died.

00:21:40.420 --> 00:21:42.819
Because that, of course, as you know, would set

00:21:42.819 --> 00:21:45.079
up which direction you're going to go in the

00:21:45.079 --> 00:21:47.299
investigation. Because there were wolves that

00:21:47.299 --> 00:21:49.960
we had picked up. that weren't shot that died

00:21:49.960 --> 00:21:53.259
by different causes, natural causes or fighting

00:21:53.259 --> 00:21:57.339
with a mountain lion or other wolves will kill

00:21:57.339 --> 00:21:59.900
wolves too. But it looked to me like it had been

00:21:59.900 --> 00:22:03.559
probably transported to that location and it

00:22:03.559 --> 00:22:06.359
was shot with, I thought maybe a 17 caliber.

00:22:06.779 --> 00:22:10.539
So after it was We put them in body bags after

00:22:10.539 --> 00:22:13.579
it was put in a body bag. We do that so that

00:22:13.579 --> 00:22:15.579
if there's anything in the fur that comes out

00:22:15.579 --> 00:22:18.559
during transport, it's caught in the bag. What

00:22:18.559 --> 00:22:22.519
we call as evidence. After doing all that, we

00:22:22.519 --> 00:22:25.319
started contacting camps. If you know anything

00:22:25.319 --> 00:22:28.319
about elk hunting camps, during the day, there's

00:22:28.319 --> 00:22:31.480
not a lot of people there. All your contacts

00:22:31.480 --> 00:22:34.579
are done at night. People come in to eat dinner,

00:22:34.960 --> 00:22:38.319
they're there. We were out till 12, one o 'clock

00:22:38.319 --> 00:22:40.440
in the morning. And what I really wanted to do

00:22:40.440 --> 00:22:43.640
was try to get who was there when they were there.

00:22:43.779 --> 00:22:48.420
And I wanted a database so that how things would

00:22:48.420 --> 00:22:52.720
go later on, at least I could go back. And so,

00:22:53.019 --> 00:22:55.259
and a lot of people said, oh, we heard a wolf

00:22:55.259 --> 00:22:59.319
howl or we heard whatever, you know, some people

00:22:59.319 --> 00:23:01.400
liked it. And then of course, I'd have to stand

00:23:01.400 --> 00:23:04.079
there and listen to people that didn't like the

00:23:04.079 --> 00:23:06.259
wolves because that's part of your job. Because

00:23:06.259 --> 00:23:07.920
you got to remember, you're the ambassador of

00:23:07.920 --> 00:23:09.960
the Fish and Wildlife Service in that kind of,

00:23:09.960 --> 00:23:12.180
you know, in that kind of environment. So anyways,

00:23:13.240 --> 00:23:17.859
probably contacted 10 to 15 camps. Wow. That's

00:23:17.859 --> 00:23:19.500
good. That was good thinking, Doug. That was

00:23:19.500 --> 00:23:22.039
a good strategy. But ended up staying there for

00:23:22.039 --> 00:23:25.029
a week, doing nothing but that. And I just wanted

00:23:25.029 --> 00:23:26.890
to get as much information for me, because who

00:23:26.890 --> 00:23:29.410
knows? You know what? I was hoping a guy would

00:23:29.410 --> 00:23:32.589
say, hey, I saw a blue truck, you know, that

00:23:32.589 --> 00:23:36.710
evening. And then, well, you know, but I didn't

00:23:36.710 --> 00:23:41.750
get that. And I'll tell you a funny story. I

00:23:41.750 --> 00:23:43.950
called Santa. Well, I didn't because they wouldn't

00:23:43.950 --> 00:23:47.809
give it to me. But the conservation officer got

00:23:47.809 --> 00:23:51.069
the hunting list for that unit. So we had a list

00:23:51.069 --> 00:23:54.920
of all the hunters. Well, I probably contacted

00:23:54.920 --> 00:23:57.859
less than 10 % of them where I was at. So, but

00:23:57.859 --> 00:24:00.819
that came up later. Cause I continued that even

00:24:00.819 --> 00:24:03.480
when I got home, I, I went and talked to hunters

00:24:03.480 --> 00:24:06.519
that were from Deming, Las Cruces, Albuquerque,

00:24:06.519 --> 00:24:09.460
uh, just to get statements to see if they heard

00:24:09.460 --> 00:24:11.799
anything. So in the end, probably interviewed

00:24:11.799 --> 00:24:14.140
over a hunt, probably over a hundred people in

00:24:14.140 --> 00:24:17.559
that case. You know, that's what I call. old

00:24:17.559 --> 00:24:20.740
fashioned shoe leather detective work. And it's

00:24:20.740 --> 00:24:25.259
so critical to do. It is so critical to get out

00:24:25.259 --> 00:24:28.019
and talk to people and just find out, because

00:24:28.019 --> 00:24:29.680
you never know what gem you're going to find

00:24:29.680 --> 00:24:32.920
out. And I think, you told me this story before,

00:24:33.039 --> 00:24:36.619
but I remember, didn't you say that like, Sometimes

00:24:36.619 --> 00:24:39.000
you were out talking to these elk hunters and

00:24:39.000 --> 00:24:40.579
they would think you were there for something

00:24:40.579 --> 00:24:43.259
else and you'd uncover some state violation that

00:24:43.259 --> 00:24:46.220
the local ordinance would write a ticket for.

00:24:46.880 --> 00:24:48.960
You know, I'd say, well, you know, why I'm here.

00:24:49.359 --> 00:24:51.400
And that was, and I kind of learned that to me,

00:24:51.539 --> 00:24:54.519
the intro question, you know, why I'm here. Cause

00:24:54.519 --> 00:24:57.140
you know, cops used to do that to me on a traffic

00:24:57.140 --> 00:25:00.339
pullover, like, you know why I stopped you? Right.

00:25:00.339 --> 00:25:02.319
Yeah, exactly. You know why I'm here. Right.

00:25:03.000 --> 00:25:05.240
And then they would confess to something totally

00:25:05.240 --> 00:25:09.099
different. And I'd have, I'd have the state conservation

00:25:09.099 --> 00:25:12.119
officer with me and the guy would say, well,

00:25:12.259 --> 00:25:15.720
you know, I didn't mean to shoot my uncle's elk.

00:25:15.740 --> 00:25:19.359
And if you like, what? And so I said, you need

00:25:19.359 --> 00:25:21.660
to talk to this guy here and you get a statement.

00:25:21.880 --> 00:25:24.480
He'd write you a ticket to him. And I spent more

00:25:24.480 --> 00:25:29.079
time in Catherine County, Catherine County court.

00:25:29.359 --> 00:25:31.900
on the state violations because I have to go

00:25:31.900 --> 00:25:34.039
in and testify of what I heard during the interview.

00:25:34.059 --> 00:25:36.579
So yeah, I made a lot of money for the state.

00:25:37.960 --> 00:25:40.380
But it was, you know, it was a great decision

00:25:40.380 --> 00:25:42.519
to do that, Doug, because it takes a lot of work

00:25:42.519 --> 00:25:44.680
to do the shoe leather detective work where you're

00:25:44.680 --> 00:25:47.119
out talking to people and then, you know, knocking

00:25:47.119 --> 00:25:51.099
on doors or knocking on tents and it, but it

00:25:51.099 --> 00:25:54.240
really has the potential to pay off or at least

00:25:54.240 --> 00:25:57.180
guide you in what you might tell you as much

00:25:57.180 --> 00:26:00.000
about. what didn't happen as what did happen.

00:26:00.099 --> 00:26:01.799
You know, it's just really important to do that.

00:26:01.799 --> 00:26:05.920
Yeah. And doing investigations before I had always

00:26:05.920 --> 00:26:09.180
learned by interviewing people, you scratch suspects

00:26:09.180 --> 00:26:12.480
off the list. So you have a list of maybe 20

00:26:12.480 --> 00:26:15.220
people. And then by the time you're done, you're

00:26:15.220 --> 00:26:17.779
maybe down to two or three people. I will say

00:26:17.779 --> 00:26:21.859
in this investigation, the suspect list grew.

00:26:23.230 --> 00:26:26.329
It didn't shrink. It grew. OK. Because a lot

00:26:26.329 --> 00:26:29.089
of people were anti -wolf. They didn't like the

00:26:29.089 --> 00:26:33.069
wolf. It was going to inhibit their hunting because

00:26:33.069 --> 00:26:35.670
the wolves will eat the elk. And so anyways,

00:26:36.150 --> 00:26:39.289
you know. And interestingly, what's really interesting

00:26:39.289 --> 00:26:41.470
about that is when everybody you contact there

00:26:41.470 --> 00:26:44.650
who's anti -wolf, there's kind of three things

00:26:44.650 --> 00:26:47.049
you look for when you're looking at a suspect.

00:26:47.190 --> 00:26:51.079
Did they have motive? Did they have the ability

00:26:51.079 --> 00:26:53.619
to do the crime and then the opportunity to do

00:26:53.619 --> 00:26:56.059
the crime? And if you're out there in the woods

00:26:56.059 --> 00:26:58.380
as an elk hunter and you hate wolves, you have

00:26:58.380 --> 00:27:00.400
all three of those things automatically. You

00:27:00.400 --> 00:27:04.539
got motive, opportunity and ability. Um, no,

00:27:04.700 --> 00:27:09.019
absolutely. Yeah. So, yeah. So, you know, pretty

00:27:09.019 --> 00:27:12.480
hard, uh, you know, and I will say that the game

00:27:12.480 --> 00:27:15.079
or the conservation officer, he lived in Kamado.

00:27:15.140 --> 00:27:18.630
I stayed at his house. We didn't have any money

00:27:18.630 --> 00:27:24.430
then and so we were on travel restrictions and

00:27:24.430 --> 00:27:27.650
of course there's not many hotels so I camped

00:27:27.650 --> 00:27:29.890
a little bit and then he invited me and he lived

00:27:29.890 --> 00:27:33.009
in a cabin up by Kamado Lake and I ended up staying

00:27:33.009 --> 00:27:35.109
at his house which I'm really grateful for. I

00:27:35.109 --> 00:27:37.529
slept on the floor next to a wood burning stove.

00:27:38.150 --> 00:27:40.309
You know the big takeaway I got from that was

00:27:40.559 --> 00:27:43.640
I learned to pack my clothes and my G ride. Yes,

00:27:43.640 --> 00:27:45.960
exactly. Clothes for probably 10 days straight.

00:27:46.380 --> 00:27:48.319
He gave me a set of clothes out because he felt

00:27:48.319 --> 00:27:51.519
so sorry. I guess I stunk, but yeah, probably.

00:27:51.720 --> 00:27:54.220
I didn't feel sorry for you, Doug. You stunk.

00:27:54.319 --> 00:27:57.599
He definitely stank, but I did the same. You

00:27:57.599 --> 00:27:59.640
know, even though I was in LA, I always had a

00:27:59.640 --> 00:28:02.380
bag in my car that had at least three changes

00:28:02.380 --> 00:28:04.420
of clothes in it that I could, you know, I used

00:28:04.420 --> 00:28:06.640
to have in a suit coat, you know, in case the.

00:28:06.700 --> 00:28:09.099
courts called or the US attorney, I could put

00:28:09.099 --> 00:28:11.839
it on even if I had a pair of Wranglers on, but

00:28:11.839 --> 00:28:14.960
I didn't have anything else. But, but lived out

00:28:14.960 --> 00:28:18.440
of my truck eight, uh, you know, eight cans soup.

00:28:18.460 --> 00:28:21.480
And I had some old, what? C rations from the

00:28:21.480 --> 00:28:25.220
army. And anyways, I said, of course, management's

00:28:25.220 --> 00:28:27.180
calling. They want updates and that I totally

00:28:27.180 --> 00:28:29.859
understand that we didn't have cell phones then.

00:28:30.460 --> 00:28:32.279
You know, we tried to get them, they wouldn't

00:28:32.279 --> 00:28:34.720
give them, they were too expensive. Anyways,

00:28:34.920 --> 00:28:37.160
there was no coverage for that up there anyways.

00:28:37.500 --> 00:28:40.900
So anyways, I think after 10 or 14 days got done,

00:28:41.259 --> 00:28:44.940
I thought I had done everything I could do. So

00:28:44.940 --> 00:28:49.599
went back to my station and compiled. Kind of

00:28:49.599 --> 00:28:51.279
a dead end though, right? You didn't come up

00:28:51.279 --> 00:28:54.480
with, yeah, dead ended. You mentioned this wolf

00:28:54.480 --> 00:28:57.259
had a radio collar on it. What did you learn

00:28:57.259 --> 00:29:01.670
about the wolf in terms of like, like what number

00:29:01.670 --> 00:29:03.650
it was. I assume they numbered their wolves like

00:29:03.650 --> 00:29:05.869
they did up in the northern Rockies. This was

00:29:05.869 --> 00:29:07.990
an interesting story because when I got back

00:29:07.990 --> 00:29:13.990
I had time to do that. It was 493 wolf 493. It

00:29:13.990 --> 00:29:17.230
was it was brought in. It was a lot of people

00:29:17.230 --> 00:29:19.849
don't understand that the Mexican gray wolves

00:29:19.849 --> 00:29:22.369
at the beginning weren't wild. They came from

00:29:22.369 --> 00:29:27.849
zoos, animal parks, and this came from some wolf

00:29:27.849 --> 00:29:31.480
haven in Washington. So when it was a pup, it

00:29:31.480 --> 00:29:34.380
came in that way. So it was learning to live

00:29:34.380 --> 00:29:37.980
in the wild. It really was. Got it. With that,

00:29:38.039 --> 00:29:40.680
met with the biologist, tried to look at their

00:29:40.680 --> 00:29:43.500
records to see because they do write down where

00:29:43.500 --> 00:29:46.700
they're getting the rate. And that wolf was coming

00:29:46.700 --> 00:29:49.480
from the Eskadia mountain, which is on the Arizona

00:29:49.480 --> 00:29:51.359
side. And I'll tell you an interesting thing

00:29:51.359 --> 00:29:54.640
about that is Escadia Mountain is famous because

00:29:54.640 --> 00:29:58.339
that's the famous Aldo Leopold story that when

00:29:58.339 --> 00:30:01.220
he shot a wolf, he saw the green in his eyes

00:30:01.220 --> 00:30:05.519
and he said he'll never shoot another wolf. And

00:30:05.519 --> 00:30:08.819
it kind of changed his philosophy on wolf management.

00:30:09.420 --> 00:30:11.779
And I always thought that was what a connection.

00:30:13.119 --> 00:30:15.460
That's the kind of the last place that wolf,

00:30:15.859 --> 00:30:17.980
and then they were getting mortality signals

00:30:17.980 --> 00:30:20.220
and there was some periods of time they didn't

00:30:20.220 --> 00:30:24.119
get anything. And as the story progressed, we

00:30:24.119 --> 00:30:26.859
know why now. But at that time, we didn't. Yeah,

00:30:27.039 --> 00:30:30.099
OK. Yeah, you know, I love that Leopold connection.

00:30:30.259 --> 00:30:32.920
Because in previous episodes in this season,

00:30:33.039 --> 00:30:34.980
we've talked a little bit about Aldo Leopold.

00:30:35.599 --> 00:30:39.519
It was 1909 that he actually was a ranger there

00:30:39.519 --> 00:30:42.700
in the Apache National Forest. And one of his

00:30:42.700 --> 00:30:45.500
jobs was to shoot predators. And he shot this

00:30:45.500 --> 00:30:49.079
wolf. And he lived to regret it. And he ultimately

00:30:49.079 --> 00:30:52.240
became a strong advocate of wolf reintroduction

00:30:52.240 --> 00:30:55.819
and also is one of the most celebrated naturalists

00:30:55.819 --> 00:30:58.019
in the country. But it's such an interesting

00:30:58.019 --> 00:31:02.640
story. I think we all know people, even my dad

00:31:02.640 --> 00:31:06.039
stopped hunting because he had an incident where

00:31:06.039 --> 00:31:09.519
he shot an animal and he just said to himself,

00:31:09.759 --> 00:31:13.900
I'm not doing that anymore. Totally understandable.

00:31:15.839 --> 00:31:19.000
Yeah. I assume the lab got back to you with information.

00:31:19.220 --> 00:31:21.099
What information did you get back from the lab

00:31:21.099 --> 00:31:23.019
about the wolf's necropsy and all that? Yeah,

00:31:23.019 --> 00:31:25.480
they believed it had been shot with a .22 caliber.

00:31:25.960 --> 00:31:28.500
.22 caliber, OK. And one of the big problems

00:31:28.500 --> 00:31:31.519
we had, and I hope I'm not giving out secrets,

00:31:31.519 --> 00:31:33.680
even though this was a long time ago, but one

00:31:33.680 --> 00:31:35.460
of the problems we have with Mexican gray wolves

00:31:35.460 --> 00:31:37.960
because of their size, you're talking about a

00:31:37.960 --> 00:31:41.019
40 to 50 pound animal, not 120 pounds like a

00:31:41.019 --> 00:31:43.680
northern wolf, is a lot of times the bullets

00:31:43.680 --> 00:31:47.549
went through them. So we had a, it was very frustrating

00:31:47.549 --> 00:31:50.650
on other wolf cases that you, even this wolf

00:31:50.650 --> 00:31:53.769
case, you couldn't find a bullet unless you were

00:31:53.769 --> 00:31:56.230
lucky to know where maybe the bullet would pass

00:31:56.230 --> 00:31:58.390
through the, the wolf and you could find it in

00:31:58.390 --> 00:32:01.049
the dirt or sitting in a tree or something. So

00:32:01.049 --> 00:32:03.670
it made it a little bit more difficult. So knowing

00:32:03.670 --> 00:32:07.529
that it was like, who would have a 22 because

00:32:07.769 --> 00:32:10.349
That kind of pulls it out of being a predator

00:32:10.349 --> 00:32:15.349
hunter. Now a 17, 22, 250 or whatever would put

00:32:15.349 --> 00:32:18.589
it into maybe a predator hunter shot it by accident

00:32:18.589 --> 00:32:22.650
or however you want to put it. But anyways, knowing

00:32:22.650 --> 00:32:25.789
that, but so that case dead ended. I mean, it

00:32:25.789 --> 00:32:28.430
did. So what I would do is they were putting

00:32:28.430 --> 00:32:32.240
us on wolf patrols to protect the wolf. because

00:32:32.240 --> 00:32:34.779
they were losing quite a few wolves on other

00:32:34.779 --> 00:32:37.220
cases. Of course, I, some of them are, I was

00:32:37.220 --> 00:32:39.660
involved in, but I wasn't the case agent. But

00:32:39.660 --> 00:32:43.119
anyways, so spent a lot of time in there, um,

00:32:43.400 --> 00:32:46.700
you know, uh, in that country, you know, watching

00:32:46.700 --> 00:32:49.119
and monitoring wolves and talking to people.

00:32:49.220 --> 00:32:51.740
And I'd always bring up the wolf. I was interested

00:32:51.740 --> 00:32:54.539
in to see, because we, at that time we called

00:32:54.539 --> 00:32:57.680
it the gyms was found on Jim Smith peak. So it

00:32:57.680 --> 00:33:00.099
was called the Jim Smith peak. Wolf and it had

00:33:00.099 --> 00:33:02.980
made the paper on several occasions, but I will

00:33:02.980 --> 00:33:04.900
tell you a funny story I was doing quite a bit

00:33:04.900 --> 00:33:07.799
undercover work then I was buying mountain lions

00:33:07.799 --> 00:33:11.599
for the state of New Mexico further south and

00:33:11.599 --> 00:33:15.140
They had a responder on me where I could talk

00:33:15.140 --> 00:33:17.180
to the state guys sitting in the truck up on

00:33:17.180 --> 00:33:19.339
the mountain and they were directing me when

00:33:19.339 --> 00:33:21.900
I was in there and I got the guy talking and

00:33:21.900 --> 00:33:23.960
he started talking about Kamado and he started

00:33:23.960 --> 00:33:26.400
talking about the Hilo wilderness his dislike

00:33:26.400 --> 00:33:29.349
for wolves and I started really kind of asking

00:33:29.349 --> 00:33:31.470
them a bunch of questions. And I remember, I

00:33:31.470 --> 00:33:33.470
think he was the chief of law enforcement or

00:33:33.470 --> 00:33:35.549
assistant chief. I remember on the mic in my

00:33:35.549 --> 00:33:39.390
ear, he's like, don't go down that road. Interesting.

00:33:43.470 --> 00:33:45.250
He didn't want you working at your Wolf case

00:33:45.250 --> 00:33:50.069
on his mountain lion case. That's hilarious.

00:33:51.329 --> 00:33:53.950
Didn't the lab report also give you information

00:33:53.950 --> 00:33:56.109
about what the wolf had been eating just before

00:33:56.109 --> 00:33:59.309
it died? Yeah, I did. What did they find about

00:33:59.309 --> 00:34:01.210
that? Because I think that's kind of an interesting

00:34:01.210 --> 00:34:04.109
side note. I think what elk and deer meat. Elk

00:34:04.109 --> 00:34:06.269
and deer, right? Yeah. Elk and deer, right. Which

00:34:06.269 --> 00:34:09.449
is a good sign, right? It's not full of cattle.

00:34:09.730 --> 00:34:12.869
No, there weren't any cattle. There was no cattle

00:34:12.869 --> 00:34:15.489
or sheep or anything like that. That's good.

00:34:15.570 --> 00:34:17.460
It was doing what it was supposed to do. Doing

00:34:17.460 --> 00:34:20.139
what it was supposed to do. So I think one of

00:34:20.139 --> 00:34:22.539
the things that is interesting, you and I know

00:34:22.539 --> 00:34:24.460
how this works. Other fish and wildlife agents

00:34:24.460 --> 00:34:27.599
know how it works, state officers. But it's not

00:34:27.599 --> 00:34:30.280
like you see on TV where you're working one case

00:34:30.280 --> 00:34:32.880
and that's all you're working all the time. No.

00:34:32.880 --> 00:34:34.559
Fish and wildlife agents, we don't have that

00:34:34.559 --> 00:34:37.079
luxury. We're working on multiple cases at one

00:34:37.079 --> 00:34:41.239
time, sometimes too many cases at one time. And

00:34:41.239 --> 00:34:43.400
so when you run into a dead end like this, you

00:34:43.400 --> 00:34:46.019
go back to your duty station on the border. you

00:34:46.019 --> 00:34:48.440
go back to doing what you're usually doing, right?

00:34:48.480 --> 00:34:51.320
You probably had five, six, maybe more other

00:34:51.320 --> 00:34:54.400
open cases that you start to work on. Cause the

00:34:54.400 --> 00:34:56.920
Wolf case was at a dead end, right? No, absolutely.

00:34:57.019 --> 00:34:59.539
I mean, I think I had sea turtle boots, sea turtle

00:34:59.539 --> 00:35:03.119
products. Uh, I think, uh, you know, I, yeah,

00:35:03.219 --> 00:35:06.639
I mean, I had, I was in an office probably no

00:35:06.639 --> 00:35:10.840
bigger than a closet. Actually, I could. I could

00:35:10.840 --> 00:35:13.440
work my printer, my computer, get in the file

00:35:13.440 --> 00:35:15.920
cabinet, get my cup of coffee and never leave

00:35:15.920 --> 00:35:19.460
my chair. That's how small it was. So that office

00:35:19.460 --> 00:35:26.059
was jam packed of all kinds of stuff. I could

00:35:26.059 --> 00:35:28.519
picture it. I could picture it. I was lucky.

00:35:28.579 --> 00:35:31.739
I was in a big field office. Yeah. So you're,

00:35:31.739 --> 00:35:33.920
you're working on a lot of different things,

00:35:34.119 --> 00:35:38.409
but as you said just a second ago, This case

00:35:38.409 --> 00:35:40.329
never kind of left your mind, right? Like, as

00:35:40.329 --> 00:35:42.329
you worked on other things, you always thought,

00:35:42.789 --> 00:35:45.469
is there a way to come back to this case? And

00:35:45.469 --> 00:35:48.590
as happens a lot of times in our job, if you

00:35:48.590 --> 00:35:51.250
don't completely abandon something, eventually

00:35:51.250 --> 00:35:54.969
something clicks. And at some point, you got

00:35:54.969 --> 00:35:57.489
a lead about this case that sounded interesting.

00:35:58.309 --> 00:36:00.730
When did you get that lead? Like, what was the

00:36:00.730 --> 00:36:02.630
lead and when did you get it? Because it was

00:36:02.630 --> 00:36:06.070
about two years later. Two years. Two years later,

00:36:06.070 --> 00:36:10.190
I was in the markets in El Paso, working the

00:36:10.190 --> 00:36:13.789
flea markets, working parrots. Yeah. And there

00:36:13.789 --> 00:36:15.730
were a couple of people in there that I had worked

00:36:15.730 --> 00:36:17.869
undercover, bought parrots. They actually went

00:36:17.869 --> 00:36:19.929
to jail, but they were out and they were back

00:36:19.929 --> 00:36:22.989
being vendors. And so I had to be a little careful

00:36:22.989 --> 00:36:25.130
because they knew who I was. So I was videoing

00:36:25.130 --> 00:36:27.349
them from a location where they couldn't see

00:36:27.349 --> 00:36:29.449
me because they were back to doing the same thing.

00:36:29.469 --> 00:36:31.929
Cause the money, the profit was so good. Right.

00:36:33.010 --> 00:36:35.250
I remember I went around the corner and one of

00:36:35.250 --> 00:36:40.030
the bad guys who was from El Paso in broken English

00:36:40.030 --> 00:36:43.730
says, dog, he found me, busted me. But anyways,

00:36:44.190 --> 00:36:46.630
so I was wrapping up, putting stuff in my truck

00:36:46.630 --> 00:36:48.889
in the parking lot. And I got a call from Curtis

00:36:48.889 --> 00:36:51.789
Graves because in the meanwhile, there were so

00:36:51.789 --> 00:36:55.650
many wolves that were disappearing. And you got

00:36:55.650 --> 00:36:59.469
to remember that. A couple of things were happening

00:36:59.469 --> 00:37:02.329
is the congressional delegations in Washington

00:37:02.329 --> 00:37:05.349
DC were, and the nonprofit groups were putting

00:37:05.349 --> 00:37:07.909
so much pressure on them, they wanted stuff to

00:37:07.909 --> 00:37:10.769
be done. They wanted wolf investigations to be

00:37:10.769 --> 00:37:13.889
done, completed, and they wanted people prosecuted.

00:37:14.190 --> 00:37:17.389
And so there was a lot of heat in the headquarters

00:37:17.389 --> 00:37:20.550
in the Albuquerque SAC office or the regional

00:37:20.550 --> 00:37:22.670
office. So we were under a lot of heat to make

00:37:22.670 --> 00:37:26.170
cases. With that being said is a supervisor at

00:37:26.170 --> 00:37:31.070
the time, Had developed this scan scan letter

00:37:31.070 --> 00:37:34.409
that was being sent out to hunters where they

00:37:34.409 --> 00:37:37.269
would answer it. And that supervisor thought

00:37:37.269 --> 00:37:41.710
that she could look at the letter and see who

00:37:41.710 --> 00:37:45.389
was lying in cases that way. This is a true story.

00:37:45.989 --> 00:37:49.429
And they wanted me on this case to do that. Oh

00:37:49.429 --> 00:37:53.670
boy. And being old school, as you say, I refuse

00:37:53.670 --> 00:37:55.909
to, even though I didn't tell him that, but I

00:37:55.909 --> 00:37:59.579
dragged my feet. And she would call me every

00:37:59.579 --> 00:38:01.900
month and where are you with, how come I'm not

00:38:01.900 --> 00:38:03.760
getting scan letters? Oh, I'm working on it,

00:38:03.760 --> 00:38:06.840
I'm working on it. And then one night at my house

00:38:06.840 --> 00:38:10.280
at about 10 o 'clock at night, a supervisor from

00:38:10.280 --> 00:38:13.119
DC called me and said, where are you at on those

00:38:13.119 --> 00:38:15.340
scan letters? And I'm like, oh no, I'm getting

00:38:15.340 --> 00:38:18.639
heat on this from DC now. And he's like, don't

00:38:18.639 --> 00:38:23.380
send any. And I was like, why? And he said, he

00:38:23.380 --> 00:38:25.719
was just in a congressional committee meeting.

00:38:26.000 --> 00:38:29.960
That was brought up and there was so much. The

00:38:29.960 --> 00:38:32.400
sportsmen in New Mexico were complaining so bad.

00:38:32.400 --> 00:38:34.039
The Fish and Wildlife Service said they will

00:38:34.039 --> 00:38:37.280
never send any of those letters. So a scan letter,

00:38:37.280 --> 00:38:39.300
I assume that's kind of like spam, right? It's

00:38:39.300 --> 00:38:41.460
just like you're just blasting this same letter

00:38:41.460 --> 00:38:44.559
off to all the hunters you you know of in that.

00:38:44.659 --> 00:38:47.619
Yeah, did you hunt? Did you see? I mean, you

00:38:47.619 --> 00:38:49.639
know, I I don't even remember a lot of it because

00:38:49.639 --> 00:38:52.159
I I wasn't interested. I I didn't believe in

00:38:52.159 --> 00:38:54.320
it because I always believe that you need to

00:38:54.320 --> 00:38:57.610
go. and talk to people in person. Because as

00:38:57.610 --> 00:39:00.389
you know, as an investigator, there's signs that

00:39:00.389 --> 00:39:05.329
you see when you talk to people, how they react

00:39:05.329 --> 00:39:08.889
or whatever. But that was a huge deal. Thank

00:39:08.889 --> 00:39:11.030
God I didn't send it on this case, because it

00:39:11.030 --> 00:39:13.690
really would have gone in the way later on. Interesting.

00:39:14.130 --> 00:39:16.269
You mentioned Curtis Graves. Curtis Graves was

00:39:16.269 --> 00:39:17.869
a special agent with the US Fish and Wildlife

00:39:17.869 --> 00:39:20.750
Service. He was the very first agent assigned

00:39:21.070 --> 00:39:24.230
to that area specifically to work on wolf cases,

00:39:24.289 --> 00:39:28.110
right? Yeah, because of the problem of all the

00:39:28.110 --> 00:39:31.010
wolves that were being killed, the Fish and Wildlife

00:39:31.010 --> 00:39:34.110
Service decided to put an agent as a resident

00:39:34.110 --> 00:39:37.809
agent in the town, which would have been Pinetop,

00:39:37.989 --> 00:39:42.119
Springerville area. that would be interconnections,

00:39:42.119 --> 00:39:44.079
working with it. It was more of a community,

00:39:44.079 --> 00:39:48.000
community policing idea. I was, I love that idea.

00:39:48.179 --> 00:39:51.139
I really did. I do too. Yeah, I do too. I think

00:39:51.139 --> 00:39:53.599
it's, I think it worked right. Yeah. It's critically

00:39:53.599 --> 00:39:56.400
important. And I, what, I don't know, we're going

00:39:56.400 --> 00:39:58.860
to get off on a little sidetrack here. One of

00:39:58.860 --> 00:40:01.800
the things that always irritated me is that sometimes

00:40:01.800 --> 00:40:04.239
other agents in the service, sometimes even other

00:40:04.239 --> 00:40:09.239
supervisors would kind of like, not criticize,

00:40:09.260 --> 00:40:13.110
but not even belittle, I don't know what the

00:40:13.110 --> 00:40:17.030
right word is, but would somehow refer to those

00:40:17.030 --> 00:40:19.829
agents that were assigned to work on specific

00:40:19.829 --> 00:40:22.590
endangered species issues. Maybe it was manatee

00:40:22.590 --> 00:40:24.989
issues in Florida, where we had agents assigned

00:40:24.989 --> 00:40:28.090
only to work on manatee issues, where we still

00:40:28.090 --> 00:40:32.710
do. And we have the dedicated wolf agents. I'd

00:40:32.710 --> 00:40:36.889
hear people say, well, They're not working GS13

00:40:36.889 --> 00:40:39.710
level cases like the agents in LA or New York.

00:40:39.989 --> 00:40:44.309
And I'm like, that's bullshit. They're working

00:40:44.309 --> 00:40:47.869
on a very high priority species. They're dedicating

00:40:47.869 --> 00:40:50.909
their time to do those cases, which are really

00:40:50.909 --> 00:40:53.789
freaking hard cases to make. I never did a crime

00:40:53.789 --> 00:40:57.150
scene on a big animal in Los Angeles. These guys

00:40:57.150 --> 00:40:59.250
are out in the field doing crime scenes at midnight

00:40:59.250 --> 00:41:02.630
like you were. I was like, let's stop the bullshit

00:41:02.630 --> 00:41:06.119
and let's just pay our agents. all the same that

00:41:06.119 --> 00:41:08.739
are doing field agent work. Yeah. They're, they're,

00:41:08.760 --> 00:41:10.659
they're bringing their families into these smaller

00:41:10.659 --> 00:41:13.239
ones. Everybody, you know, it's, you can't be

00:41:13.239 --> 00:41:15.539
hidden. Everybody knows what to do and who you

00:41:15.539 --> 00:41:18.139
do and who your kids are and what your wife does.

00:41:18.320 --> 00:41:20.920
And so there's a lot more, I think of a commitment

00:41:20.920 --> 00:41:22.820
that some people don't understand. Yeah. And

00:41:22.820 --> 00:41:24.739
if you want the agents to do it right and put

00:41:24.739 --> 00:41:26.739
their heart and soul into it, you better treat

00:41:26.739 --> 00:41:28.280
it. You better treat them like you think they're

00:41:28.280 --> 00:41:31.659
important. Exactly. Curtis is like one of the,

00:41:31.820 --> 00:41:33.659
he was one of my all time favorite agents to

00:41:33.659 --> 00:41:35.800
work with. I never, I never got a chance to work

00:41:35.800 --> 00:41:37.960
with him that much, but he came to LA a few times

00:41:37.960 --> 00:41:40.500
when he was in special operations. Sure. And

00:41:40.500 --> 00:41:42.719
I loved working with Curtis. Just a great guy.

00:41:42.900 --> 00:41:45.699
Yeah. He, he called me and said he had heard

00:41:45.699 --> 00:41:49.199
a rumor that some guy had killed a wolf and he

00:41:49.199 --> 00:41:52.579
thought it was the part of my wolf case. Awesome.

00:41:52.679 --> 00:41:55.119
We could come up and do an interview and that

00:41:55.119 --> 00:41:57.159
all occurred while I was at the flea market.

00:41:57.199 --> 00:41:59.960
So I ran home. Of course. Got a bunch of clothes,

00:41:59.960 --> 00:42:02.139
of course. I learned that. It's got you learned

00:42:02.139 --> 00:42:04.940
your lesson. The three or four hours I met Curtis.

00:42:05.500 --> 00:42:07.940
He gave me some of the information. It wasn't

00:42:07.940 --> 00:42:10.360
a lot, but it was a little bit of information.

00:42:10.360 --> 00:42:12.400
What I had learned over the years of being a

00:42:12.400 --> 00:42:15.360
game warden, an agent is sometimes the smallest

00:42:15.360 --> 00:42:18.960
information you get makes the biggest case. Sometimes

00:42:18.960 --> 00:42:22.039
the biggest information you get. Doesn't work

00:42:22.039 --> 00:42:24.739
out, but anyways, what was the tip? What's the

00:42:24.739 --> 00:42:26.679
tip that came in? What was it was that there

00:42:26.679 --> 00:42:30.599
was a guy in town. that was that told somebody

00:42:30.599 --> 00:42:35.159
that he'd been a part of, uh, of the killing

00:42:35.159 --> 00:42:38.480
of a wolf had been interviewed before by an agent.

00:42:38.760 --> 00:42:42.300
They told him it was a dog and that was it. And

00:42:42.300 --> 00:42:45.519
so I met with Curtis, got the name, two names,

00:42:45.679 --> 00:42:48.139
the two individuals. And he said, well, what

00:42:48.139 --> 00:42:49.780
do you want to do? And I said, well, let's go

00:42:49.780 --> 00:42:51.920
interview. Let's go re -interview them a hundred

00:42:51.920 --> 00:42:53.880
percent. And he said, well, they were interviewed

00:42:53.880 --> 00:42:56.679
a couple of years ago. And you know, nothing

00:42:56.679 --> 00:42:58.460
happened. I said, well, let's go try it again.

00:42:58.619 --> 00:43:02.340
So that's absolutely nice. Again, great detective

00:43:02.340 --> 00:43:04.500
work, right? There's nothing wrong with re -interviewing

00:43:04.500 --> 00:43:06.280
somebody that you've already talked to or somebody

00:43:06.280 --> 00:43:09.699
else has talked to. Right. So, okay. So you go,

00:43:09.699 --> 00:43:12.780
you go re -interview this subject. What'd you

00:43:12.780 --> 00:43:16.500
learn? Well, interviewed a subject. Of course,

00:43:16.500 --> 00:43:18.699
he told us that he was interviewed before by

00:43:18.699 --> 00:43:21.460
an agent said it was a dog kept with that story.

00:43:21.500 --> 00:43:24.940
So I thought, okay. So I asked the guy, I said,

00:43:25.070 --> 00:43:27.670
Why don't you take me to the site where you killed

00:43:27.670 --> 00:43:30.710
the dog. Nice. Good idea. You want to know where

00:43:30.710 --> 00:43:33.070
I killed the dog? I said, yeah, take me up there.

00:43:33.389 --> 00:43:35.989
Guess where he took me. He took me to Eskadiah

00:43:35.989 --> 00:43:40.170
Mountain to a trailer park at the basis. Eskadiah

00:43:40.170 --> 00:43:41.710
Mountain. And I said, tell me what happened.

00:43:41.889 --> 00:43:44.030
He said the dog was over here. And I remember

00:43:44.030 --> 00:43:46.449
Curtis looking at me like, why are we doing this

00:43:46.449 --> 00:43:51.159
about a dog? But wait, I want to clarify something.

00:43:51.739 --> 00:43:55.260
Escondido Mountain, you know, is where this 493

00:43:55.260 --> 00:43:58.719
started out. It's not where the body was found,

00:43:58.980 --> 00:44:02.039
right? But I knew there was a wolf there. Yes.

00:44:02.119 --> 00:44:05.019
My lines were starting to match up. So I knew

00:44:05.019 --> 00:44:07.760
there was more to this story than what he was

00:44:07.760 --> 00:44:10.719
telling me. So spending a couple hours with him,

00:44:10.860 --> 00:44:13.260
he was a nice kid. I liked him a lot. He was

00:44:13.260 --> 00:44:16.199
a good kid. Had some hardships in his life, but

00:44:16.199 --> 00:44:18.980
I liked the kid. You know, he's a local small

00:44:18.980 --> 00:44:21.219
town kid, didn't have a lot of opportunities,

00:44:21.500 --> 00:44:24.699
but I liked them. So we go back to town. I'm

00:44:24.699 --> 00:44:27.880
taking them back to his apartment. And I said,

00:44:27.940 --> 00:44:29.960
this is what I said to him. I said, your story

00:44:29.960 --> 00:44:32.199
doesn't match up, but you know, my job is to

00:44:32.199 --> 00:44:34.940
fit stuff in a puzzle, done it a hundred times

00:44:34.940 --> 00:44:37.679
and your story doesn't match up. I think there's

00:44:37.679 --> 00:44:39.559
a lot more that you would like to tell me and

00:44:39.559 --> 00:44:42.320
get it off your chest. So he looked at me, closed

00:44:42.320 --> 00:44:45.679
the door and said, uh, Let's go to the rodeo

00:44:45.679 --> 00:44:48.760
grounds. So we went to the rodeo grounds in Springville,

00:44:49.079 --> 00:44:54.380
which nobody was there and pulled up. And he

00:44:54.380 --> 00:44:56.460
told me the whole story. He told me the story

00:44:56.460 --> 00:44:59.880
of him and another guy who was his cousin. We're

00:44:59.880 --> 00:45:02.960
at the trailer at Eskidia Mountain subdivision.

00:45:03.380 --> 00:45:05.539
There was a rancher that drove by with the horse

00:45:05.539 --> 00:45:08.019
trailer, told him there was a wolf in the subdivision.

00:45:08.420 --> 00:45:11.179
They were cutting firewood. The guy who was with

00:45:11.179 --> 00:45:13.690
said, you know, let's get rid of these wolves

00:45:13.690 --> 00:45:19.349
went in got a sks rifle and a 22 they saw the

00:45:19.349 --> 00:45:23.110
wolf at the fence line they shot it they ran

00:45:23.110 --> 00:45:25.630
over to it they killed it and this was broad

00:45:25.630 --> 00:45:27.630
day in the middle of the day they got really

00:45:27.630 --> 00:45:30.769
nervous on what to do they left it there and

00:45:30.769 --> 00:45:33.429
that night they loaded a bunch of firewood in

00:45:33.429 --> 00:45:35.989
the back of their truck put the wolf in the middle

00:45:35.989 --> 00:45:38.889
of the firewood and drove it to new mexico and

00:45:39.039 --> 00:45:42.260
Whoa. They drove it across the state line in

00:45:42.260 --> 00:45:45.340
a back road. They never hit the highway. Went

00:45:45.340 --> 00:45:49.019
up to the Jim Smith peak, dumped it out. And

00:45:49.019 --> 00:45:52.019
they did, uh, push its nose into the ground because

00:45:52.019 --> 00:45:54.800
of their hatred to the wolves. And I was like,

00:45:55.280 --> 00:45:58.599
wow. So in those days, I don't, it's kind of

00:45:58.599 --> 00:46:01.960
a hidden art. And I will say this got it all

00:46:01.960 --> 00:46:04.739
in an ad written affidavit. Cause you had him

00:46:04.739 --> 00:46:08.380
write it out. Beautiful written affidavit. He

00:46:08.380 --> 00:46:12.840
signed it. I had it. So, so the other guy, uh,

00:46:13.760 --> 00:46:16.699
the main shooter, kind of the organizer of it

00:46:16.699 --> 00:46:20.639
was in the whole brick power plant. They were

00:46:20.639 --> 00:46:23.860
shut down. He was scraping the sulfuric acid

00:46:23.860 --> 00:46:27.300
out of the, out of the big towers. What was his

00:46:27.300 --> 00:46:31.860
name? His name was James Rogers. Hey, before

00:46:31.860 --> 00:46:33.980
we get to this, so now you're going to go interview

00:46:33.980 --> 00:46:36.239
James Rogers, who's like your prime suspect,

00:46:36.380 --> 00:46:39.360
right? Yes. I want to point something out for

00:46:39.360 --> 00:46:42.800
listeners. You mentioned that you keyed in on

00:46:42.800 --> 00:46:45.099
the importance of things like the nose pushed

00:46:45.099 --> 00:46:49.800
down and the root, this wolf was shot in Escondido

00:46:49.800 --> 00:46:52.619
and ends up over in New Mexico, which matched

00:46:52.619 --> 00:46:56.199
the radio collar data. The important thing to

00:46:56.199 --> 00:46:59.980
remember here is when people sometimes think

00:46:59.980 --> 00:47:03.460
about confessions. We know this, but a lot of

00:47:03.460 --> 00:47:06.199
people kind of forget, or maybe they just don't

00:47:06.199 --> 00:47:10.510
know. A confession by itself is not enough to

00:47:10.510 --> 00:47:14.050
convict somebody. You have to have corroborating

00:47:14.050 --> 00:47:17.710
evidence. And so when you were out at that crime

00:47:17.710 --> 00:47:20.809
scene and you were smart enough to note fine

00:47:20.809 --> 00:47:23.590
details such as the nose was pushed into the

00:47:23.590 --> 00:47:26.849
dirt and that seemed unusual, that became actually

00:47:26.849 --> 00:47:29.730
very, very important later because that corroborates

00:47:29.730 --> 00:47:33.010
his confession. Correct, right. Because who else

00:47:33.010 --> 00:47:35.769
would know that fact, right? Right. So that was

00:47:35.769 --> 00:47:39.210
a very, what I love about this case that you

00:47:39.210 --> 00:47:43.289
did, Doug, is from beginning to end, it was very

00:47:43.289 --> 00:47:45.869
smartly done. It was very intelligently handled.

00:47:46.570 --> 00:47:50.969
You document these small things that maybe might

00:47:50.969 --> 00:47:53.590
not even turn out to be important, but maybe

00:47:53.590 --> 00:47:57.090
they are. And you noticed that that nose pushed

00:47:57.090 --> 00:48:00.940
in the dirt was unusual. You documented it. Two

00:48:00.940 --> 00:48:03.440
years later, this guy confesses, and part of

00:48:03.440 --> 00:48:05.920
his confession is, we pushed the nose into the

00:48:05.920 --> 00:48:08.920
dirt. That is corroborating evidence of the confession.

00:48:09.039 --> 00:48:11.099
Now you can use the confession to convict him.

00:48:11.099 --> 00:48:13.920
Right. Beautiful. Beautiful work. Beautiful work.

00:48:13.920 --> 00:48:16.019
Thank you. I appreciate that. Yeah. It's good

00:48:16.019 --> 00:48:18.960
detective work, man. OK. I thought I was just

00:48:18.960 --> 00:48:22.800
lucky. Well, there's always luck in good detective

00:48:22.800 --> 00:48:27.349
work. There's always luck, 100%. We all, we all

00:48:27.349 --> 00:48:29.429
know that. So Doug, we'll just whisper that part.

00:48:29.769 --> 00:48:34.829
There's a lot of luck in detective work. Okay.

00:48:35.150 --> 00:48:36.989
You said this, you said the quiet part out loud.

00:48:39.289 --> 00:48:42.170
Okay. Okay. So now we're going to go interview

00:48:42.170 --> 00:48:45.489
James Rogers. You go to this plant where he's

00:48:45.489 --> 00:48:47.389
working with his hard hat. It's the power plant

00:48:47.389 --> 00:48:49.630
in Holbrook, Arizona, which is closed because

00:48:49.630 --> 00:48:51.849
they're working on the, you know, it closes.

00:48:52.250 --> 00:48:55.460
But I remember I went to the gate. And the guy,

00:48:55.460 --> 00:48:57.840
I had long hair there and a big bushy beard and

00:48:57.840 --> 00:49:00.639
a big green coat. And he's like, what are you

00:49:00.639 --> 00:49:06.480
a bounty hunter? And then I said, no, I'm here

00:49:06.480 --> 00:49:08.239
to interview a guy about a wolf. And I never

00:49:08.239 --> 00:49:10.820
forget the security guy says who gives a damn

00:49:10.820 --> 00:49:14.360
about a wolf, but I go boy. So anyways, they

00:49:14.360 --> 00:49:17.579
let me use the security trailer. He came down

00:49:17.579 --> 00:49:21.119
and he denied it. Of course. Uh, denied it quite

00:49:21.119 --> 00:49:24.769
a bit. And then I did show him the affidavit

00:49:24.769 --> 00:49:29.050
that his co -conspirers or his partner had written,

00:49:29.570 --> 00:49:32.110
still denied it. Still denied it. Still denied

00:49:32.110 --> 00:49:34.809
it. And so we talked a little bit more. I was

00:49:34.809 --> 00:49:38.010
about ready to leave. And I said, at that time,

00:49:38.349 --> 00:49:39.730
and I know you've probably interviewed other

00:49:39.730 --> 00:49:42.150
people on this in Montana, but there was the

00:49:42.150 --> 00:49:44.489
McKittrick decision or the McKittrick thing was

00:49:44.489 --> 00:49:47.929
going on. At that time, McKittrick was They were

00:49:47.929 --> 00:49:50.829
putting his face on t -shirts and posters. He

00:49:50.829 --> 00:49:53.909
was kind of the poster boy of anti wolf in Montana.

00:49:54.230 --> 00:49:56.570
I told him that I said, you know, they've even

00:49:56.570 --> 00:49:58.989
written a book on this guy. He's written a book

00:49:58.989 --> 00:50:01.449
about how he hates wolves. And I went through

00:50:01.449 --> 00:50:03.909
the whole thing. I'll never forget it. And the

00:50:03.909 --> 00:50:06.929
guy looked at me and he said, really? Is that

00:50:06.929 --> 00:50:10.090
true? And I said, yeah, it is true. I I'm not

00:50:10.090 --> 00:50:12.329
telling you anything that's false. And he said,

00:50:12.570 --> 00:50:15.690
I killed the damn wolf. You've got to be kidding.

00:50:16.250 --> 00:50:19.090
I said, really tell me about it. Told me the

00:50:19.090 --> 00:50:23.150
same story. The other guy told me, uh, he added

00:50:23.150 --> 00:50:26.070
a few things in the end, got an affidavit. He

00:50:26.070 --> 00:50:28.409
signed it. And I, then I said, well, where's

00:50:28.409 --> 00:50:31.929
the SKS and where's the 22 right? Yeah. And he

00:50:31.929 --> 00:50:34.989
said, well, when the first guy, the first agent

00:50:34.989 --> 00:50:39.070
interviewed us, I got so nervous. I drove it

00:50:39.070 --> 00:50:42.550
to Pueblo, Colorado. and got rid of him and gave

00:50:42.550 --> 00:50:44.809
him to a relative. I don't remember if it was

00:50:44.809 --> 00:50:47.869
a cousin or father or mother. He said, after

00:50:47.869 --> 00:50:50.530
a year went by and nothing happened, I went and

00:50:50.530 --> 00:50:54.590
got him back. And so he said, I got a little

00:50:54.590 --> 00:50:57.349
nervous and I don't know why, but he got nervous

00:50:57.349 --> 00:51:00.550
a week before I showed up. I have no idea why.

00:51:00.889 --> 00:51:02.929
Interesting. He took them all apart, put them

00:51:02.929 --> 00:51:05.309
in a plastic bag and buried them in his backyard

00:51:05.309 --> 00:51:08.280
at a trailer park. I said, well, I need those.

00:51:08.679 --> 00:51:10.159
He said, well, I'm working. I can't get them

00:51:10.159 --> 00:51:13.239
now. But get a hold of my wife. She's in the

00:51:13.239 --> 00:51:16.239
trailer park. And he gave me her information.

00:51:16.619 --> 00:51:19.739
So after I got the affidavit and everything,

00:51:19.800 --> 00:51:24.860
I started to leave. And so went over to her house.

00:51:25.119 --> 00:51:29.179
OK, wait. Go ahead. I still, I just got to reiterate.

00:51:29.300 --> 00:51:31.780
All right. You got this guy's confession because

00:51:31.780 --> 00:51:35.519
you told him. that McKittrick was a hero among

00:51:35.519 --> 00:51:37.800
anti -wolf people and he wanted to be a hero

00:51:37.800 --> 00:51:40.119
among anti -wolf people. He wanted to be the

00:51:40.119 --> 00:51:43.940
hero in Arizona as an anti -wolf, get support

00:51:43.940 --> 00:51:45.980
from all the ranchers and all the people that

00:51:45.980 --> 00:51:48.639
hated wolves. That's what he believed. He believed,

00:51:48.900 --> 00:51:50.880
actually believed in that. He kept saying that

00:51:50.880 --> 00:51:52.659
over and over again, I'm going to be a hero.

00:51:52.960 --> 00:51:55.260
And I kept saying, you got to make sure what

00:51:55.260 --> 00:51:57.179
you're telling me is true. Don't make anything

00:51:57.179 --> 00:51:59.820
up to be the hero. And he's like, no, I'm going

00:51:59.820 --> 00:52:01.860
to tell you. And he did. It was identical to

00:52:01.860 --> 00:52:04.739
what the statement that we had got before. And

00:52:04.739 --> 00:52:06.900
did you kind of have that, when you started to

00:52:06.900 --> 00:52:09.159
tell him about McKittrick, did you kind of think

00:52:09.159 --> 00:52:11.500
maybe this guy's got an ego on him and he'll

00:52:11.500 --> 00:52:15.480
want to be famous? That was smart, Doug. He's

00:52:15.480 --> 00:52:18.260
going to be in a book. I loved it. I love it.

00:52:18.269 --> 00:52:21.170
Okay. Later, the ranchers didn't support him

00:52:21.170 --> 00:52:25.110
and little did he know. Well, you know, a little

00:52:25.110 --> 00:52:27.269
bit of information I got later on about them

00:52:27.269 --> 00:52:29.469
was from a rancher. But anyway, interesting.

00:52:29.809 --> 00:52:32.789
Okay. So they weren't okay. Well, that's good.

00:52:32.929 --> 00:52:36.190
Yeah. Anyway, so went to the house. He was there

00:52:36.190 --> 00:52:39.130
and there was a little baby there and, and I,

00:52:39.429 --> 00:52:42.469
you know, young, young gal. And she's like, let's

00:52:42.469 --> 00:52:44.949
go out. So we went in the backyard. Now it's

00:52:44.949 --> 00:52:47.570
dark. It's like 11, 12 o 'clock at night. We're

00:52:47.570 --> 00:52:50.150
shining flashlights and we couldn't find, she

00:52:50.150 --> 00:52:52.429
couldn't remember exactly. I couldn't find an

00:52:52.429 --> 00:52:55.210
indentate. I mean, couldn't find them. But she

00:52:55.210 --> 00:52:57.010
was willing to help you. That's good. She really

00:52:57.010 --> 00:53:00.690
was. She was real cool about it. And then I said,

00:53:00.690 --> 00:53:03.289
you know, if you remember where they're at, where

00:53:03.289 --> 00:53:07.809
he gets home from work or whatever, could you

00:53:07.809 --> 00:53:09.889
dig them up and take them to the police department?

00:53:09.960 --> 00:53:11.900
And then I left and you know, that night I'm

00:53:11.900 --> 00:53:13.639
like, they're gone. You're never going to see

00:53:13.639 --> 00:53:17.880
those guns. Next morning, the Springerville Police

00:53:17.880 --> 00:53:20.639
Department lady called me and said, hey, I got

00:53:20.639 --> 00:53:23.940
a couple of guns that are taken apart in plastic

00:53:23.940 --> 00:53:26.920
bags. They're sitting out front. I was like,

00:53:27.219 --> 00:53:29.360
seriously? So I went and got them and there they

00:53:29.360 --> 00:53:32.739
were. There was an SKS and the 22. So this is

00:53:32.739 --> 00:53:35.380
where we say the quiet part out loud. That was

00:53:35.380 --> 00:53:41.239
freaking lucky. That's awesome, Doug. Okay. So

00:53:41.239 --> 00:53:43.920
she actually found them. Somebody dug them up

00:53:43.920 --> 00:53:46.179
and turned it was him or her. I don't know, but

00:53:46.179 --> 00:53:49.260
she's the one who brought them by to the police

00:53:49.260 --> 00:53:52.099
department. That is freaking amazing. Right.

00:53:52.340 --> 00:53:55.940
So then I had a supervisor, Steve Middleton out

00:53:55.940 --> 00:53:59.000
of Phoenix, Arizona, who came up and I liked

00:53:59.000 --> 00:54:02.210
Steve because you know, anything big, he would

00:54:02.210 --> 00:54:05.150
come up and get involved in. And I appreciate

00:54:05.150 --> 00:54:07.550
that. I mean, he'd come out into the field. And

00:54:07.550 --> 00:54:10.369
I remember when I got the affidavit, he was sitting

00:54:10.369 --> 00:54:12.929
there and he's like, how'd you do? And he was

00:54:12.929 --> 00:54:16.429
from the Southeast, had that accent. And I said,

00:54:16.690 --> 00:54:19.110
Steve didn't get, didn't work out. And he's like,

00:54:19.130 --> 00:54:21.250
damn it, you know, that always happens on these

00:54:21.250 --> 00:54:24.289
cases. And I handed him the affidavit and he's

00:54:24.289 --> 00:54:30.500
like, I'll be gone. That's awesome. So anyways,

00:54:30.960 --> 00:54:34.280
what a great case, man. Yeah. So, you know, had

00:54:34.280 --> 00:54:37.559
to put all, put all the fit, all the pieces together

00:54:37.559 --> 00:54:40.780
to make the case. Uh, and then of course the

00:54:40.780 --> 00:54:43.420
big, the big thing for, for agents in the fish

00:54:43.420 --> 00:54:45.739
and wildlife service and wildlife cases is getting

00:54:45.739 --> 00:54:48.300
it accepted by the U S attorneys. Yeah, that

00:54:48.300 --> 00:54:51.000
was my next question is when presumably now you

00:54:51.000 --> 00:54:53.300
go to a United States attorney to prosecute,

00:54:53.460 --> 00:54:56.349
what, what was the, who'd you run into? at the

00:54:56.349 --> 00:54:57.869
U .S. Attorney's office. What was the response?

00:54:58.070 --> 00:55:02.889
Again, you know, I was up helping Curtis on another

00:55:02.889 --> 00:55:07.829
Wolf case and it had snowed like a foot and I

00:55:07.829 --> 00:55:11.090
was up in Pinetop and I got a call. U .S. Attorney

00:55:11.090 --> 00:55:12.969
wants to meet with you first thing at eight o

00:55:12.969 --> 00:55:15.429
'clock in the morning and I drove by the Mogollon

00:55:15.429 --> 00:55:18.849
Rim in a snowstorm following a semi. I didn't

00:55:18.849 --> 00:55:21.409
know I was going to make it. And so I pull into

00:55:21.409 --> 00:55:24.070
Phoenix, my whole bed on my truck's full of snow.

00:55:24.230 --> 00:55:27.250
Of course, Phoenix is melting like crazy. And

00:55:27.250 --> 00:55:29.210
one of the local agents there let me stay at

00:55:29.210 --> 00:55:31.230
his house. Cause of course we're still on travel

00:55:31.230 --> 00:55:35.369
restrictions. And so I went to the U S attorney's

00:55:35.369 --> 00:55:38.530
office, met assistant U S attorney for the first

00:55:38.530 --> 00:55:43.070
time, uh, Camille Bible. She's now the magistrate

00:55:43.070 --> 00:55:47.039
and flag staff. I got lucky, you know, again,

00:55:47.500 --> 00:55:50.159
her dad used to be I had met her dad years ago.

00:55:50.179 --> 00:55:53.739
He was the BLM state director. So she had a huge

00:55:53.739 --> 00:55:56.599
background in natural resources and worked with

00:55:56.599 --> 00:55:58.860
her with the case. And she did a phenomenal job

00:55:58.860 --> 00:56:02.800
of helping. Fantastic. She charged him. She did.

00:56:02.840 --> 00:56:06.800
And he was charged in Flagstaff in Arizona. And

00:56:06.800 --> 00:56:10.480
the magistrate at that time had grown up. His

00:56:10.480 --> 00:56:13.179
dad was the head of concessions at Grand Canyon.

00:56:13.320 --> 00:56:16.039
So he had a huge interest in natural resources.

00:56:16.320 --> 00:56:19.420
And when the defendant came and now we got, you

00:56:19.420 --> 00:56:21.500
know, this is unusual for wildlife cases. We

00:56:21.500 --> 00:56:25.880
got, we got news trucks from Phoenix and reporters.

00:56:25.880 --> 00:56:29.000
And I mean, this is going to, I'm not used to

00:56:29.000 --> 00:56:32.400
this in a magistrate court hearing. Anyways,

00:56:33.039 --> 00:56:36.019
the guy went up, pled not guilty and whatever.

00:56:36.519 --> 00:56:40.840
And then later on he pled guilty. in front of

00:56:40.840 --> 00:56:43.940
the judge, and he told the judge if it was to

00:56:43.940 --> 00:56:47.380
happen again, it'd still kill a wolf. And I sat

00:56:47.380 --> 00:56:52.320
there thinking, okay, so then the judge gave

00:56:52.320 --> 00:56:55.780
him a six month sentence, I think four in prison

00:56:55.780 --> 00:56:59.980
and six at home confinement or whatever, and

00:56:59.980 --> 00:57:03.619
so much probation, and sent him off to federal

00:57:03.619 --> 00:57:06.679
prison, which is unheard of because a lot of

00:57:06.679 --> 00:57:11.190
people don't realize, you know, A violation of

00:57:11.190 --> 00:57:13.550
the Endangered Species Act is a misdemeanor.

00:57:13.610 --> 00:57:16.630
It's a misdemeanor. And of course, when Mexican

00:57:16.630 --> 00:57:20.429
gray wolves are special rule wolves that we call,

00:57:20.710 --> 00:57:23.710
so it makes them threatened. So the penalty for

00:57:23.710 --> 00:57:26.909
threatened is up to six months. And I remember

00:57:26.909 --> 00:57:29.230
after all this was being done, reporters were

00:57:29.230 --> 00:57:32.329
calling biologists, managers, why didn't he get

00:57:32.329 --> 00:57:35.090
more time? And I'm like, this is all that the

00:57:35.090 --> 00:57:38.159
law allows. which is the maximum, so let's be

00:57:38.159 --> 00:57:40.940
happy with that. But a lot of people, even within

00:57:40.940 --> 00:57:43.159
the service, didn't understand. Yeah, they don't

00:57:43.159 --> 00:57:46.719
even understand. That's the penalty. Yeah, when

00:57:46.719 --> 00:57:49.079
I speak to the public and you talk to them about

00:57:49.079 --> 00:57:52.679
that, even if you were to kill the last rhinoceros

00:57:52.679 --> 00:57:55.219
or the last tiger or the last grizzly bear in

00:57:55.219 --> 00:57:57.800
the world, under the Endangered Species Act,

00:57:57.880 --> 00:58:00.099
you'd be facing a maximum penalty of one year

00:58:00.099 --> 00:58:03.289
in jail. That's it. It's a Class A misdemeanor.

00:58:03.469 --> 00:58:05.429
And then like you said with wolves, because they're

00:58:05.429 --> 00:58:07.929
reintroduced and they're being, there have to

00:58:07.929 --> 00:58:10.050
be some special rules, like you said, for management

00:58:10.050 --> 00:58:13.090
in case there's conflict with livestock. They

00:58:13.090 --> 00:58:15.869
actually end up with a threatened status, which

00:58:15.869 --> 00:58:18.409
if it's an endangered animal, the maximum penalty

00:58:18.409 --> 00:58:21.829
is one year in jail, $100 ,000 fine. If it's

00:58:21.829 --> 00:58:24.289
a threatened animal, it's a Class B misdemeanor,

00:58:24.349 --> 00:58:28.570
which is six months in jail, max, and $25 ,000

00:58:28.570 --> 00:58:33.170
fine. $25 ,000, that's right. You know, so that's

00:58:33.170 --> 00:58:35.869
kind of one of the things that does help a little

00:58:35.869 --> 00:58:39.449
bit is under the CFR, the Code of Federal Regulations

00:58:39.449 --> 00:58:43.489
under special rules had certain guidelines. Like

00:58:43.489 --> 00:58:47.409
if you were to walk up to a wolf and say, oh,

00:58:47.449 --> 00:58:50.429
it's a wolf and not report it within so many

00:58:50.429 --> 00:58:55.130
hours to the service, that's a violation. You're

00:58:55.130 --> 00:58:57.659
like, oh, it's a wolf. Throw it in your truck

00:58:57.659 --> 00:58:59.940
or your possess it. That's another violation

00:58:59.940 --> 00:59:02.059
So yeah, so time out here because I want to wait

00:59:02.059 --> 00:59:04.239
for a second to talk about this because this

00:59:04.239 --> 00:59:07.340
relates to another I think in my opinion very

00:59:07.340 --> 00:59:10.539
intelligent way you approach this case because

00:59:10.539 --> 00:59:14.059
First of all, let me just say this first You

00:59:14.059 --> 00:59:17.599
put a guy in jail for a Mexican gray wolf take

00:59:17.599 --> 00:59:22.250
case or a poaching case and to my knowledge That

00:59:22.250 --> 00:59:24.710
is the only case where a Fish and Wildlife Service

00:59:24.710 --> 00:59:27.610
agent has actually put somebody in jail for killing

00:59:27.610 --> 00:59:30.309
a Mexican gray wolf since reintroduction. Now,

00:59:30.369 --> 00:59:34.250
I may be wrong. If I am, any agent who has put

00:59:34.250 --> 00:59:36.489
somebody in jail, please email me and we'll make

00:59:36.489 --> 00:59:39.449
a correction on a future episode. But I don't

00:59:39.449 --> 00:59:41.690
think anybody else has put anybody in jail for

00:59:41.690 --> 00:59:43.329
a Mexican gray wolf. They might have gotten a

00:59:43.329 --> 00:59:46.269
conviction, but they probably didn't get a sentence

00:59:46.269 --> 00:59:49.150
of actual jail time. So kudos to you for actually

00:59:49.150 --> 00:59:52.849
putting somebody in jail. Good for you. Well,

00:59:52.889 --> 00:59:55.590
no, I appreciate that. And of course, are you

00:59:55.590 --> 00:59:58.269
aware of any other cases where an agent I am

00:59:58.269 --> 01:00:03.969
not most get probation $500 fine or pay restitution

01:00:03.969 --> 01:00:05.769
or something like that. I think some of the other

01:00:05.769 --> 01:00:07.829
cases we did that was kind of the end result

01:00:07.829 --> 01:00:11.230
of it. So first of all, we call them pretrial

01:00:11.230 --> 01:00:13.530
diversion program. Oh, yeah, don't even get me

01:00:13.530 --> 01:00:17.570
started. You know, so kudos to you. The guy starts

01:00:17.570 --> 01:00:19.750
out pleading not guilty and then he changes his

01:00:19.750 --> 01:00:22.900
plea to guilty. That's a very tight case you

01:00:22.900 --> 01:00:25.599
made, because what that means is he saw the discovery.

01:00:26.679 --> 01:00:28.739
He pled not guilty, and then the government turned

01:00:28.739 --> 01:00:30.820
over discovery, and him and his lawyer went through

01:00:30.820 --> 01:00:33.360
it and were like, we're screwed. You better plead.

01:00:33.739 --> 01:00:35.559
But then he was stupid enough to stand in front

01:00:35.559 --> 01:00:38.139
of a judge and say he'll do it again if he had

01:00:38.139 --> 01:00:40.059
the opportunity. Yeah, and there was no misidentification

01:00:40.059 --> 01:00:41.800
when he pulled the trigger. He knew it was a

01:00:41.800 --> 01:00:44.320
wolf. He just know it was a wolf. Yeah, and that's

01:00:44.320 --> 01:00:46.739
the next thing I want to talk about is that this

01:00:46.739 --> 01:00:51.360
is 1998. This is post the McKittrick case and

01:00:51.360 --> 01:00:55.199
appeals. And we now have a memo issued by the

01:00:55.199 --> 01:00:59.480
Department of Justice saying that US prosecutors

01:00:59.480 --> 01:01:03.260
will no longer seek a jury instruction that says

01:01:03.260 --> 01:01:07.940
that the government does not need to prove that

01:01:07.940 --> 01:01:11.239
a defendant knew the identity of the species

01:01:11.239 --> 01:01:14.199
when they took it or killed it. So in other words,

01:01:14.239 --> 01:01:17.539
what this means is when McKittrick was convicted,

01:01:17.880 --> 01:01:20.119
The jury did not have to conclude that he knew

01:01:20.119 --> 01:01:22.300
it was a wolf, only that he intentionally killed

01:01:22.300 --> 01:01:26.679
an animal. Right. But because of this memo, the

01:01:26.679 --> 01:01:30.579
McKittrick memo, on its own, the US Department

01:01:30.579 --> 01:01:32.860
of Justice decided, no, now we do have to prove

01:01:32.860 --> 01:01:34.699
that. We do have to prove that when a person

01:01:34.699 --> 01:01:36.659
killed a wolf, they knew the identity of it when

01:01:36.659 --> 01:01:38.940
they shot it, which is not what the law says.

01:01:39.000 --> 01:01:41.360
And that's not what Congress intended. That's

01:01:41.360 --> 01:01:44.539
correct. And you had some evidence that they

01:01:44.539 --> 01:01:46.400
did know it was a wolf when they shot it, which

01:01:46.400 --> 01:01:49.159
is great. But what I love about you telling this

01:01:49.159 --> 01:01:51.280
story when you and I have talked about it before,

01:01:51.760 --> 01:01:55.820
you say, I don't care if he knew. And the reason

01:01:55.820 --> 01:01:59.619
why is because under the prohibited acts in the

01:01:59.619 --> 01:02:01.960
Endangered Species Act, there's a lot of things

01:02:01.960 --> 01:02:05.219
that are prohibited. Aside from just killing

01:02:05.219 --> 01:02:07.239
the animal. And so tell us a little bit about

01:02:07.239 --> 01:02:09.659
that. Why weren't you concerned about the McKittrick

01:02:09.659 --> 01:02:12.480
memo interfering with the Mexican gray wolf because

01:02:12.480 --> 01:02:15.380
of the special rules under the CFR is the code

01:02:15.380 --> 01:02:18.599
of federal regulations. There's certain things

01:02:18.599 --> 01:02:22.699
like, like you, you got to call within so much

01:02:22.699 --> 01:02:26.139
time. You got to notify the sir. And I don't

01:02:26.139 --> 01:02:28.980
remember if it was 48 hours, 72 hours. I don't

01:02:28.980 --> 01:02:31.059
remember, but it was something like that. And

01:02:31.059 --> 01:02:33.929
the other thing was possession. And so. Those

01:02:33.929 --> 01:02:37.309
are kind of things that happen after the killing

01:02:37.309 --> 01:02:39.670
of the wolf, which are different. They're different

01:02:39.670 --> 01:02:42.110
violations, but I'm going to put a button here.

01:02:42.369 --> 01:02:46.250
Same penalty. Yeah, exactly. Same penalty. Whether

01:02:46.250 --> 01:02:48.789
you didn't report it within a certain amount

01:02:48.789 --> 01:02:52.710
of time is still six months or $25 ,000 under

01:02:52.710 --> 01:02:55.909
the special rule. So and possessing it when they,

01:02:55.949 --> 01:02:58.510
when they killed it over in Escondido and they

01:02:58.510 --> 01:03:01.170
picked it up and put it in their pickup truck,

01:03:01.349 --> 01:03:04.130
they're in possession now of a Wolf that was

01:03:04.130 --> 01:03:06.809
illegally killed. Beautiful. So you don't care

01:03:06.809 --> 01:03:09.110
about McKittrick? No, I didn't. Because once

01:03:09.110 --> 01:03:10.650
they walked up and they're like, hey, that's

01:03:10.650 --> 01:03:11.929
a wolf. I didn't talk about McKittrick to the

01:03:11.929 --> 01:03:14.170
US Attorney's office because of course that's

01:03:14.170 --> 01:03:17.190
on their radar. But they concurred and they went

01:03:17.190 --> 01:03:20.750
with the case. And there's another element to

01:03:20.750 --> 01:03:24.570
this too, the transport, right? So the transport

01:03:24.570 --> 01:03:28.670
becomes a Laciak violation as well. Yeah. And

01:03:28.670 --> 01:03:32.070
I want to say, I think the Laciak was charged,

01:03:32.070 --> 01:03:34.820
I don't know if He was, I don't think he was

01:03:34.820 --> 01:03:37.199
convicted of that. I think upfront it was talked

01:03:37.199 --> 01:03:40.019
about with, with the defense attorneys. Uh, and

01:03:40.019 --> 01:03:42.900
you're, you're absolutely right. Because of course

01:03:42.900 --> 01:03:46.400
the Lacey act has certain law predications and

01:03:46.400 --> 01:03:48.860
one, of course, is a predication of the Lacey

01:03:48.860 --> 01:03:51.699
act is a, is another federal wildlife law as

01:03:51.699 --> 01:03:54.260
it was tribal law or state law. Right. Right.

01:03:54.260 --> 01:03:56.639
So the illegal possession and then driving it

01:03:56.639 --> 01:03:58.340
to New Mexico would have triggered the Lacey

01:03:58.340 --> 01:04:01.519
act. So they probably pled that out as part of.

01:04:01.530 --> 01:04:04.570
agreement to plead guilty. I think it was, yeah.

01:04:06.170 --> 01:04:09.449
Well, Doug, this case, I love this case. I love

01:04:09.449 --> 01:04:13.150
hearing you tell it. I think it should be an

01:04:13.150 --> 01:04:16.010
encouraging case. Anybody who's currently working

01:04:16.010 --> 01:04:20.170
on Mexican gray wolf cases, they can be made.

01:04:20.309 --> 01:04:23.250
You did a great job on it. I've been asking all

01:04:23.250 --> 01:04:26.869
my guests, what do you personally think? As a

01:04:26.869 --> 01:04:29.969
former Fish and Wildlife agent, as just a citizen,

01:04:30.269 --> 01:04:32.829
What are your views on the Mexican gray wolf

01:04:32.829 --> 01:04:36.050
reintroduction and how it's going? Well, I got

01:04:36.050 --> 01:04:39.170
to give kudos to the people that have been involved

01:04:39.170 --> 01:04:42.150
with it from the start because politically it

01:04:42.150 --> 01:04:47.449
was a nightmare. Sometimes, you know, and there's

01:04:47.449 --> 01:04:49.269
people that are still working in the project

01:04:49.269 --> 01:04:52.250
that I still hear from. They still call me. But

01:04:52.250 --> 01:04:54.289
I give them a lot of credit for sticking with

01:04:54.289 --> 01:04:56.309
it, because I think it's one of those things

01:04:56.309 --> 01:04:58.469
that it would have been easy to walk away from.

01:04:58.510 --> 01:05:01.329
Now, do I believe in the Mexican gray wolf program?

01:05:01.409 --> 01:05:04.610
Of course I do. Do I believe the way it's managed?

01:05:04.650 --> 01:05:07.909
I'm sure there's different ways or it can be

01:05:07.909 --> 01:05:13.150
it can be realigned maybe differently. But, you

01:05:13.150 --> 01:05:16.449
know, yeah, you know, I'm going to tell you this.

01:05:16.610 --> 01:05:20.170
I'm really proud that I was a part of it. I really

01:05:20.170 --> 01:05:23.579
am, you know. Here I am retired doing other things.

01:05:24.179 --> 01:05:27.199
And, and, and I, I still, I'm, you know, I had

01:05:27.199 --> 01:05:29.340
done grizzly bear enforcement, which was a lot

01:05:29.340 --> 01:05:31.860
like this with when in Montana, when I was a

01:05:31.860 --> 01:05:34.679
state officer, but, but with the Mexican gray

01:05:34.679 --> 01:05:39.380
wolf, it, uh, you know, highly complex, highly

01:05:39.380 --> 01:05:42.920
challenging. And I think a lot of people that

01:05:42.920 --> 01:05:44.659
are still in that program, we got to give them

01:05:44.659 --> 01:05:48.039
a lot of credit for, for keeping with it. Absolutely.

01:05:49.000 --> 01:05:51.320
I was talking about grizzly bears in New Mexico.

01:05:51.360 --> 01:05:56.519
I'm like, uh -oh. Well, yeah, here I am in California,

01:05:56.579 --> 01:05:58.440
and we're starting to talk about bringing grizzly

01:05:58.440 --> 01:06:00.440
bears back to California. We were all like, same

01:06:00.440 --> 01:06:03.860
thing. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And we have,

01:06:03.860 --> 01:06:08.260
there's at least 78, maybe closer to 100 wolves

01:06:08.260 --> 01:06:11.179
have reclaimed parts of California. I didn't

01:06:11.179 --> 01:06:14.349
know. I knew some had moved into yours. to California,

01:06:14.409 --> 01:06:16.730
but I didn't know that many. Yeah, I was surprised

01:06:16.730 --> 01:06:19.190
to hear that, too. There's three or four packs

01:06:19.190 --> 01:06:23.130
living in northeastern California, which is,

01:06:23.130 --> 01:06:25.369
in my view, pretty cool. There's a lot of conflict

01:06:25.369 --> 01:06:28.210
with cattle industry, but hopefully it'll get

01:06:28.210 --> 01:06:31.929
worked out. Right, exactly. But Doug McKenna,

01:06:32.010 --> 01:06:33.489
thank you so much for being on the show. This

01:06:33.489 --> 01:06:36.230
was a great case. Loved hearing about it. I appreciate

01:06:36.230 --> 01:06:38.150
you taking the time to tell us the story. Thank

01:06:38.150 --> 01:06:41.510
you for being on. And I really appreciate the

01:06:41.510 --> 01:06:43.869
invite. So thank you very much. Great seeing

01:06:43.869 --> 01:06:46.650
you again. You bring back a lot of old memories.

01:06:46.849 --> 01:06:48.530
And I appreciate that. Thank you. Good memories,

01:06:49.030 --> 01:06:52.489
right? Absolutely. All right. All right. Doug,

01:06:52.570 --> 01:06:54.269
thanks so much for being on the show. Everybody,

01:06:54.550 --> 01:06:57.730
we'll see you next time. Nature's Secret Service

01:06:57.730 --> 01:07:00.309
is written and produced by me, Ed Newcomer, and

01:07:00.309 --> 01:07:03.449
is co -produced by the DHTV team here at California

01:07:03.449 --> 01:07:06.050
State University, Dominguez Hills. Follow us

01:07:06.050 --> 01:07:08.449
on social media and connect with us online at

01:07:08.449 --> 01:07:09.989
naturessecretservice .com.