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OK, people, listen up. Here we go. This is Nature's
Secret Service, the podcast that puts you in
the room with the men and women of wildlife law
enforcement. I'm your host, Ed Newcomer. And
today our guest is Doug McKenna. former special
agent with the US Fish and Wildlife Service,
Doug actually got his start in public service
working for the Youth Conservation Corps. I think
Doug might be the first person I've ever met
who I can confirm worked for the Youth Conservation
Corps. It's still a project or a program that's
around. It's a great way for young people to
get involved, particularly with conservation
issues. It's a great place for people to get
a start with kind of a professional career. He
then went on to work for the US Forest Service
as a wildland firefighter, and then became a
Montana State Game Warden. And he did that job
before he was hired to be a US Fish and Wildlife
Service Special Agent. And then he did 25 years
as a Special Agent for the US Fish and Wildlife
Service, which is awesome. Most of his experience
was in the Western United States, a lot of it
in the Southwest. He worked in Colorado, Utah,
Texas, New Mexico, and Arizona. He's here today
to talk to us about a Mexican gray wolf case,
which is going to be great. So obviously, it
was while he was working in the Southwest. Doug,
thank you so much for being on the podcast. It's
great to see you again, and I appreciate you
being on. Yeah, thank you. It's a true honor.
I appreciate the invite. Thank you. Doug, you
and I, we never worked together in the field
as agents, because we were in two different regions.
And we just, for whatever reasons, we crossed
paths during training and stuff. But we never
worked in the same region on a case together.
But we did have a fantastic experience working
together. Not, I guess, more than 10 years ago
now. But we both went on an assignment to Indonesia
together. And that was one of the most memorable
experiences of my career. I don't know if you
agree that you had a good time on that trip,
but I sure did. No, I did. It's something I always
remember. It was the ultimate experience. It
really was. And I did enjoy working with you.
You know, we were in the jungles of Sumatra and
the big city of Jakarta. And I think about it
often. I really enjoyed it. And I actually learned
a lot. I really did over there. Yeah, so did
I. And I am the same. I reminisce to myself about
that a lot. And I tell stories about that trip
to other people quite a bit. So listeners know
we were over there to do kind of a survey on
Indonesia's capacity to respond to wildlife trafficking.
So we weren't working on a case. We just were
over there talking to different. members of Indonesian
law enforcement. So we were all over the country
and it's a country of what, 17 ,000 islands.
So obviously we didn't head every island, but
we were in Jakarta, we were in Sulawesi, we were
all over. Do you remember, do you remember that
ranger station where we stayed? We in a remote
part of the jungle, we stayed with some rangers
for a night or two. Do you remember that? I do.
I do remember that. I think they were, they were
protecting the Sumatra Rhino. especially from
the people from Vietnam. Remember, they were
coming over to poach them and take their horns
and we stayed in the jungles with them. And I
remember that sleeping on a reed mat in a little,
I wouldn't even call it a cabin. No, you could
see moonlight through the side of the cabin.
Yeah, exactly. I don't know if you remember this
part, but I remember that laying on those grass
mats, totally dark, you know. And you could hear
the sound of insects in the jungle. And all of
a sudden, just kind of the time you and I were
talking, but then we kind of got quiet, ready
to go to sleep. And a giant freaking beetle flew
through the room. It sounded like an Apache attack
helicopter going through the room. I do remember
that, yes. All I remember is there was this moment
of silence. This thing buzzed through the room.
There's this moment of silence because it landed
somewhere. And you said, it was just quiet. And
you just said, What was that? We just, we just
both burst out laughing, but I remember thinking
the whole night, where is this thing going to
land? You know? No, that's true. And a lot of
things in that jungle, of course could eat you.
And I just remember the huge blood suckers and
everything else. Oh yeah. Leaches and whatnot.
What an experience. Yes. Very different than
the, uh, environs you were used to working in
the Southwestern United States. That's for sure.
So, okay, one of the fondest memories I have
from my career as a service special agent was
sleeping in a, you know. a shack that was about
to fall down and being worried about giant beetles
flying through the air. Anyway, we're talking
with you today, Doug, about Mexican gray wolves.
That's kind of where we are in our season three
about wolves. And just so listeners refresh their
memory, Mexican gray wolves were reintroduced
to Arizona in the spring of 1998. Where were
you stationed in spring of 1998? Well, let's
see. In 1998, I was stationed in a substation
of El Paso, which was Santa Teresa, New Mexico,
and that was a brand new customs facility. It
was an expansion of border facilities that went
into New Mexico, so. In essence, I was still
under the El Paso office, but I was, I was kind
of building a new program over there in the New
Mexico border country. Right. So you were pretty
far south. Yeah, I was at that time. There was
a, I think there was an agent in a supervisor
in Albuquerque. And I think that was it. I want
to say there was probably two, maybe three agents
in New Mexico. two or three agents over in Arizona.
So there wasn't a lot of us. So one of the big
things that happened in 1998, of course, we assumed
the responsibility of the enforcement of any
mortality or wolf mortality that would occur
either in Arizona or New Mexico. Right. Right.
Yeah. With the reintroduction. Yeah. Right. So,
but so my listeners have a sense on what, what
does an agent do in that duty station? What you're
down there near the border. So typically you're
not working wolf cases, what would you normally
be working on down in a station like that? Some
of the huge things that we did that we got involved
in was parrot smuggling from Mexico and Latin
America and South America. And the reason why
it was so important is because a lot of them
carry Newcastle's disease. So it was a huge priority
with the Fish and Wildlife Service because any
outbreak of that would decimate the poultry industry
in the United States. And so a lot of our time
was spent either doing undercover work in that
regard or investigations on the smuggling of
parrots, which happened quite a bit, right? Yeah.
I mean, that was 98. I came on in 2002 and was
sent to Los Angeles. And I remember it seemed
like just about every agent in the Southwest
and Southern California was working on either
directly working on a parrot smuggling case or
was supporting another agent. I came on as a
brand new person. And the first thing I did,
I was assigned to do is support other agents
who were working parrot smuggling cases. A lot
of with illegal sales of migratory birds down
in that portion of the country was a big deal
too. There were a lot of songbirds that were
being put in the commercial arena where people
would buy them to take them home as pets. And
so that was another big thing that we did. And
of course, Uh, you know, we did a lot of what
was called Lacey at cases with the big game animals
such as elk and big trophy deer coming out, uh,
coming out illegally, coming out of New Mexico
in the Texas. We spent a lot of time that because
the state officers couldn't cross state lines.
So they would refer those cases to us and we
would look at those as what we call Lacey at
violence. And that was another, that was a big
part of our work. Yeah. And typically I always
describe that, you know, special agents with
Fish and Wildlife Service, we assist the states
with big game cross border or interstate movement,
a big game, illegally taking big game in the
same way that the FBI might assist local law
enforcement with stolen vehicles or anything
that crosses state lines. Because the Lacey Act,
once you cross a state line, it becomes a federal
offense. And we can help the states. Yeah. because
we have that jurisdiction and they don't. Absolutely.
And another big priority was contaminant investigations
at that time. And with the potash industry and
the silver and gold mines, there was a lot of
take of migratory birds that were flying through
that would get, in essence, poisoned or die from
contaminants. And we did a lot of work in that
regard with a lot of major copper companies and
potash companies and such. Oh my gosh, Doug,
the potash issue makes me sigh because I think
that is definitely something we should get into
in season four maybe of this podcast with at
least one episode. But it's heartbreaking. What
happens to migratory birds when they land on
these catch ponds at potash mining facilities?
is it'll break your heart when you see the dead
birds encased in salts, and it's awful. No, absolutely.
And to see how they die in some of the pH levels
on some of the silver and gold mines and things
like that. Yeah, they land on water, and they're
burned before they can even take off. So that's
one that really has always bothered me as an
agent, because they're hard cases to make against
those companies. So basically, you're down closer
to the border. You're working on cross -border
smuggling, trafficking stuff. How far away from
the release areas are you? Yeah, where I was
stationed was three or four hours. That was all
to the north of me. And of course, that was a
priority with the, at that time, the division
of law enforcement under the service because
it was part of a recovery effort. And, you know,
that was one of the highest priorities the region
had. So we were all pretty much advised that
if assistance was needed, we would be called
to do that. You'd make the drive if you had to,
right? Yeah, so that brings us to October 1998,
and you received a report about a dead Mexican
wolf being found. Tell us about that. What was
the report? What was the information you got
initially in October 1998? Well, at that time,
during the release of Mexican gray wolves, every
one of them was fitted with a radio collar. And
so what the biologists would do is they'd follow
they'd follow the wolves with their radio gear
and their antennas and they would mark the locations
of the wolves and of course if a wolf didn't
move for a certain amount of time it would send
out what was called a mortality signal. If it
sent out a mortality signal the biologist would
try to see if they could get eyes on it or what
but the service agents would be notified of that.
And it was our job to respond, especially if
a mortality signal was being heard. And the reason
for that was if a wolf did die, then we would
assess a crime scene and start collecting evidence
in that regard to see, number one, what it died
from. And if it was shot or killed illegally,
then we would pursue a criminal investigation.
Awesome. So when you got this report, what did
you do? What's the next step? Yeah, I got the
report. And back in the mid 90s or late 90s,
of course, the states didn't want a lot of their
people involved in the wolf reintroduction thing.
So it all kind of went back at that time, went
back on the feds or the Fish and Wildlife Service
to work on. And so what happened is, a biologist
got a wolf mortality signal in the upper part
of the Gila, which is part of the Gila wilderness,
which is on this. This area was on the Arizona,
New Mexico state line. So the biologist was trying
to get a hold of someone because we were supposed
to report as soon as we could upon a notification.
And there was actually a state. New Mexico game
and fish guy on scene who had a big interest
in wolves who later became a wolf biologist,
but at the time was a conservation officer. He
called me also. So I said I would respond. So
I, I drove up, probably took me three or four
hours to get up there. It's almost midnight.
That's, that's a mountain road. Why near than
heck. And I will tell you this story is before
the wolves were released, it was my job. to contact
the sheriff's offices of the different counties.
And this occurred in Catron County where I went
in to see the sheriff to tell him we're going
to have public meetings and we might need a little
bit of help if they get out of hand because everything
was so polarized with people. We might. need
them for security help. And another thing is
just to let him know that this was all going
to occur. And his name was Bob Wellborn, who
has passed away. I remember he pointed down the
hall and he said, if you ever come into my county,
I'm going to put you in there. Wow. So unbelievable.
As I'm in a hurry in my government unmarked vehicle
to get up there. I knew I couldn't get a speeding
ticket. The whole wolf reintroduction thing is
kind of riddled with stories like that. Normally,
fish and wildlife agents build very good relationships
with the local law enforcement that they work
with, whether it's LAPD or the small town local
sheriff. We usually never have a problem. But
for some reason, when it comes to endangered
species work, sometimes We do run into these,
particularly in small rural areas, these sheriffs
who really take this, I don't know what the right
word is. I guess it's just a real hard -headed
position. And they'll almost tell you right to
their face that they're going to violate the
law. They're going to obstruct your investigation.
They're going to violate the law. They might
even try to arrest you if you come into their
county, which is absurd. It must have been frustrating
to hear that. Well, I knew a little bit about
Bob Wellborn because I had spent time up in the
Gila on some other cases that were non related
with the wolf. And really, that's what it all
ends up being is your your personal connections
with people, even though they might be against
the saying endangered species reintroduction
program. He said that. But later on. he got to
know me and I guess he tolerated me and you know
that the state knew me personally so they did
favors to me and I remember they would say to
me all the time is the New Mexico guys would
say don't tell Santa Fe because that was the
headquarters and the Arizona guys would tell
me Doug don't tell Phoenix so we kind of had
this hidden relationship which really helped
and That's all just interaction as you as an
agent with people that you're working with. Yeah,
yeah. Yeah, and for sure. That all changed over
time. But back in the 90s, that's the way it
was. Yeah, for sure. Relationships between fish
and wildlife agents and state game wardens, local,
is usually really good. And I want to talk about
that a little bit. You mentioned that the state
of New Mexico really was reluctant to have their
wardens assisting Fish and Wildlife Service with
this. Why? Why was that? Did you have any idea?
I just think they were afraid of the ranchers
and the public perception of the people that
were against the program. So politically, I think
it even went up to the politicians in the state
that weren't really supportive of the program.
And of course, they got to go in front of the
state legislature to get funding and programs.
like New Mexico sponsored by the hunters, by
the elk, deer, antelope hunters. And so they
were getting a little bit of negative feedback
from the sportsmen. So I think it puts, at that
time, put them in a pretty difficult position.
It sounds like the local wardens were like, eh,
we're going to work with them anyway. We're just
not going to talk about it. I will tell you this,
is a local warden who was a friend of mine used
to tell me, a poacher is a poacher. Yeah. Whether
they're taking elk or deer, Doug, or antelope
or birds, taking wolves, the poacher is a poacher.
Poacher is a poacher. Exactly. Yeah. If they'll
shoot at one thing illegally, they'll probably
shoot at anything else illegally. Which ended
up being true, but we can talk about it. Yeah,
yeah, it often it is true. Yeah, it often is
true. Okay, so you mentioned you got up there
late because it's a long hour drive. I mean,
it was like midnight before you got up there.
It was midnight. And I remember I pulled up and
of course, you know, the banter that you have
with your fellow law enforcement or biologists
is I've come at you so long. Exactly. Got up
there. And actually, the guy from New Mexico
helped me a lot. The CEO, he brought in his supervisor
was there. And all three of us started working
kind of a crime scene kind of thing. Cause we
walk us through that. What do you, what are you
doing? It's dark. Would you walk us through what
it's like to do a crime scene like that out in
the woods? Yeah, we taped it all off, asked the
biologist to back off a little bit, walked up,
but tried to be real careful where we walk, stay
off the road. Cause this, this wolf that was
had died was near a road down a hill from a road.
And so walked in, looked at it, saw some things
that seemed kind of out of ordinary. The snout
of the wolf looked like it was pressed down into
the ground, which told me that it probably didn't
die there, or if it did, someone manipulated
it. So anyways, you start taking pictures. And
then we kind of take everything off, ask everybody
to go home. had someone stay there that night
and then decided, you know what, we'll reconvene.
I think I stayed up there that night, but we'll
wait for the sun to come up because it's really
hard to do in the middle of the night when it's
dark and on a mountain with a flashlight. So
we regrouped first thing in the morning and started
to pick up what we thought was pieces of me.
a beer can here or there, cigarette butts, anything
we could do, roll the wolf over, look for bullet
holes, look, well, maybe it was shot over here,
but none of that at that time made any sense.
Interesting. Then the next thing it decided to
do is after documenting what we call the crime
scene, it decided that who would know about this
in the middle of nowhere? Now, there was an elk
hunt underway I think it was a muzzle loader
type elk hunt in unit, in the unit 15 or whatever.
So I decided to start contacting hunters and
all the camps that surrounded where the dead.
Nice. Good thinking. Before we get to that, Doug,
let me just ask you. So at the scene, did you
see anything on the wolf carcass you mentioned
shot? Did you see evidence that it might've been
shot? Uh, it looked to me like there, there was,
there was a hole in it. Right. Uh -huh. Okay.
So I assume it was a small, small hole, which
at that time we were kind of learning that a
lot of the wool Mexican gray wolves were being
shot with 17 caliber rifles, which is a smaller
caliber, a little, little up from a 22. And I
really kind of assumed that had been shot with
that. Interesting. So we bag, we bag the wolf
up. I made arrangements to get it to Albuquerque,
because the first thing I needed was to get it
to the forensics lab in Ashland, Oregon, so that
an examiner could tell me really how it died.
Because that, of course, as you know, would set
up which direction you're going to go in the
investigation. Because there were wolves that
we had picked up. that weren't shot that died
by different causes, natural causes or fighting
with a mountain lion or other wolves will kill
wolves too. But it looked to me like it had been
probably transported to that location and it
was shot with, I thought maybe a 17 caliber.
So after it was We put them in body bags after
it was put in a body bag. We do that so that
if there's anything in the fur that comes out
during transport, it's caught in the bag. What
we call as evidence. After doing all that, we
started contacting camps. If you know anything
about elk hunting camps, during the day, there's
not a lot of people there. All your contacts
are done at night. People come in to eat dinner,
they're there. We were out till 12, one o 'clock
in the morning. And what I really wanted to do
was try to get who was there when they were there.
And I wanted a database so that how things would
go later on, at least I could go back. And so,
and a lot of people said, oh, we heard a wolf
howl or we heard whatever, you know, some people
liked it. And then of course, I'd have to stand
there and listen to people that didn't like the
wolves because that's part of your job. Because
you got to remember, you're the ambassador of
the Fish and Wildlife Service in that kind of,
you know, in that kind of environment. So anyways,
probably contacted 10 to 15 camps. Wow. That's
good. That was good thinking, Doug. That was
a good strategy. But ended up staying there for
a week, doing nothing but that. And I just wanted
to get as much information for me, because who
knows? You know what? I was hoping a guy would
say, hey, I saw a blue truck, you know, that
evening. And then, well, you know, but I didn't
get that. And I'll tell you a funny story. I
called Santa. Well, I didn't because they wouldn't
give it to me. But the conservation officer got
the hunting list for that unit. So we had a list
of all the hunters. Well, I probably contacted
less than 10 % of them where I was at. So, but
that came up later. Cause I continued that even
when I got home, I, I went and talked to hunters
that were from Deming, Las Cruces, Albuquerque,
uh, just to get statements to see if they heard
anything. So in the end, probably interviewed
over a hunt, probably over a hundred people in
that case. You know, that's what I call. old
fashioned shoe leather detective work. And it's
so critical to do. It is so critical to get out
and talk to people and just find out, because
you never know what gem you're going to find
out. And I think, you told me this story before,
but I remember, didn't you say that like, Sometimes
you were out talking to these elk hunters and
they would think you were there for something
else and you'd uncover some state violation that
the local ordinance would write a ticket for.
You know, I'd say, well, you know, why I'm here.
And that was, and I kind of learned that to me,
the intro question, you know, why I'm here. Cause
you know, cops used to do that to me on a traffic
pullover, like, you know why I stopped you? Right.
Yeah, exactly. You know why I'm here. Right.
And then they would confess to something totally
different. And I'd have, I'd have the state conservation
officer with me and the guy would say, well,
you know, I didn't mean to shoot my uncle's elk.
And if you like, what? And so I said, you need
to talk to this guy here and you get a statement.
He'd write you a ticket to him. And I spent more
time in Catherine County, Catherine County court.
on the state violations because I have to go
in and testify of what I heard during the interview.
So yeah, I made a lot of money for the state.
But it was, you know, it was a great decision
to do that, Doug, because it takes a lot of work
to do the shoe leather detective work where you're
out talking to people and then, you know, knocking
on doors or knocking on tents and it, but it
really has the potential to pay off or at least
guide you in what you might tell you as much
about. what didn't happen as what did happen.
You know, it's just really important to do that.
Yeah. And doing investigations before I had always
learned by interviewing people, you scratch suspects
off the list. So you have a list of maybe 20
people. And then by the time you're done, you're
maybe down to two or three people. I will say
in this investigation, the suspect list grew.
It didn't shrink. It grew. OK. Because a lot
of people were anti -wolf. They didn't like the
wolf. It was going to inhibit their hunting because
the wolves will eat the elk. And so anyways,
you know. And interestingly, what's really interesting
about that is when everybody you contact there
who's anti -wolf, there's kind of three things
you look for when you're looking at a suspect.
Did they have motive? Did they have the ability
to do the crime and then the opportunity to do
the crime? And if you're out there in the woods
as an elk hunter and you hate wolves, you have
all three of those things automatically. You
got motive, opportunity and ability. Um, no,
absolutely. Yeah. So, yeah. So, you know, pretty
hard, uh, you know, and I will say that the game
or the conservation officer, he lived in Kamado.
I stayed at his house. We didn't have any money
then and so we were on travel restrictions and
of course there's not many hotels so I camped
a little bit and then he invited me and he lived
in a cabin up by Kamado Lake and I ended up staying
at his house which I'm really grateful for. I
slept on the floor next to a wood burning stove.
You know the big takeaway I got from that was
I learned to pack my clothes and my G ride. Yes,
exactly. Clothes for probably 10 days straight.
He gave me a set of clothes out because he felt
so sorry. I guess I stunk, but yeah, probably.
I didn't feel sorry for you, Doug. You stunk.
He definitely stank, but I did the same. You
know, even though I was in LA, I always had a
bag in my car that had at least three changes
of clothes in it that I could, you know, I used
to have in a suit coat, you know, in case the.
courts called or the US attorney, I could put
it on even if I had a pair of Wranglers on, but
I didn't have anything else. But, but lived out
of my truck eight, uh, you know, eight cans soup.
And I had some old, what? C rations from the
army. And anyways, I said, of course, management's
calling. They want updates and that I totally
understand that we didn't have cell phones then.
You know, we tried to get them, they wouldn't
give them, they were too expensive. Anyways,
there was no coverage for that up there anyways.
So anyways, I think after 10 or 14 days got done,
I thought I had done everything I could do. So
went back to my station and compiled. Kind of
a dead end though, right? You didn't come up
with, yeah, dead ended. You mentioned this wolf
had a radio collar on it. What did you learn
about the wolf in terms of like, like what number
it was. I assume they numbered their wolves like
they did up in the northern Rockies. This was
an interesting story because when I got back
I had time to do that. It was 493 wolf 493. It
was it was brought in. It was a lot of people
don't understand that the Mexican gray wolves
at the beginning weren't wild. They came from
zoos, animal parks, and this came from some wolf
haven in Washington. So when it was a pup, it
came in that way. So it was learning to live
in the wild. It really was. Got it. With that,
met with the biologist, tried to look at their
records to see because they do write down where
they're getting the rate. And that wolf was coming
from the Eskadia mountain, which is on the Arizona
side. And I'll tell you an interesting thing
about that is Escadia Mountain is famous because
that's the famous Aldo Leopold story that when
he shot a wolf, he saw the green in his eyes
and he said he'll never shoot another wolf. And
it kind of changed his philosophy on wolf management.
And I always thought that was what a connection.
That's the kind of the last place that wolf,
and then they were getting mortality signals
and there was some periods of time they didn't
get anything. And as the story progressed, we
know why now. But at that time, we didn't. Yeah,
OK. Yeah, you know, I love that Leopold connection.
Because in previous episodes in this season,
we've talked a little bit about Aldo Leopold.
It was 1909 that he actually was a ranger there
in the Apache National Forest. And one of his
jobs was to shoot predators. And he shot this
wolf. And he lived to regret it. And he ultimately
became a strong advocate of wolf reintroduction
and also is one of the most celebrated naturalists
in the country. But it's such an interesting
story. I think we all know people, even my dad
stopped hunting because he had an incident where
he shot an animal and he just said to himself,
I'm not doing that anymore. Totally understandable.
Yeah. I assume the lab got back to you with information.
What information did you get back from the lab
about the wolf's necropsy and all that? Yeah,
they believed it had been shot with a .22 caliber.
.22 caliber, OK. And one of the big problems
we had, and I hope I'm not giving out secrets,
even though this was a long time ago, but one
of the problems we have with Mexican gray wolves
because of their size, you're talking about a
40 to 50 pound animal, not 120 pounds like a
northern wolf, is a lot of times the bullets
went through them. So we had a, it was very frustrating
on other wolf cases that you, even this wolf
case, you couldn't find a bullet unless you were
lucky to know where maybe the bullet would pass
through the, the wolf and you could find it in
the dirt or sitting in a tree or something. So
it made it a little bit more difficult. So knowing
that it was like, who would have a 22 because
That kind of pulls it out of being a predator
hunter. Now a 17, 22, 250 or whatever would put
it into maybe a predator hunter shot it by accident
or however you want to put it. But anyways, knowing
that, but so that case dead ended. I mean, it
did. So what I would do is they were putting
us on wolf patrols to protect the wolf. because
they were losing quite a few wolves on other
cases. Of course, I, some of them are, I was
involved in, but I wasn't the case agent. But
anyways, so spent a lot of time in there, um,
you know, uh, in that country, you know, watching
and monitoring wolves and talking to people.
And I'd always bring up the wolf. I was interested
in to see, because we, at that time we called
it the gyms was found on Jim Smith peak. So it
was called the Jim Smith peak. Wolf and it had
made the paper on several occasions, but I will
tell you a funny story I was doing quite a bit
undercover work then I was buying mountain lions
for the state of New Mexico further south and
They had a responder on me where I could talk
to the state guys sitting in the truck up on
the mountain and they were directing me when
I was in there and I got the guy talking and
he started talking about Kamado and he started
talking about the Hilo wilderness his dislike
for wolves and I started really kind of asking
them a bunch of questions. And I remember, I
think he was the chief of law enforcement or
assistant chief. I remember on the mic in my
ear, he's like, don't go down that road. Interesting.
He didn't want you working at your Wolf case
on his mountain lion case. That's hilarious.
Didn't the lab report also give you information
about what the wolf had been eating just before
it died? Yeah, I did. What did they find about
that? Because I think that's kind of an interesting
side note. I think what elk and deer meat. Elk
and deer, right? Yeah. Elk and deer, right. Which
is a good sign, right? It's not full of cattle.
No, there weren't any cattle. There was no cattle
or sheep or anything like that. That's good.
It was doing what it was supposed to do. Doing
what it was supposed to do. So I think one of
the things that is interesting, you and I know
how this works. Other fish and wildlife agents
know how it works, state officers. But it's not
like you see on TV where you're working one case
and that's all you're working all the time. No.
Fish and wildlife agents, we don't have that
luxury. We're working on multiple cases at one
time, sometimes too many cases at one time. And
so when you run into a dead end like this, you
go back to your duty station on the border. you
go back to doing what you're usually doing, right?
You probably had five, six, maybe more other
open cases that you start to work on. Cause the
Wolf case was at a dead end, right? No, absolutely.
I mean, I think I had sea turtle boots, sea turtle
products. Uh, I think, uh, you know, I, yeah,
I mean, I had, I was in an office probably no
bigger than a closet. Actually, I could. I could
work my printer, my computer, get in the file
cabinet, get my cup of coffee and never leave
my chair. That's how small it was. So that office
was jam packed of all kinds of stuff. I could
picture it. I could picture it. I was lucky.
I was in a big field office. Yeah. So you're,
you're working on a lot of different things,
but as you said just a second ago, This case
never kind of left your mind, right? Like, as
you worked on other things, you always thought,
is there a way to come back to this case? And
as happens a lot of times in our job, if you
don't completely abandon something, eventually
something clicks. And at some point, you got
a lead about this case that sounded interesting.
When did you get that lead? Like, what was the
lead and when did you get it? Because it was
about two years later. Two years. Two years later,
I was in the markets in El Paso, working the
flea markets, working parrots. Yeah. And there
were a couple of people in there that I had worked
undercover, bought parrots. They actually went
to jail, but they were out and they were back
being vendors. And so I had to be a little careful
because they knew who I was. So I was videoing
them from a location where they couldn't see
me because they were back to doing the same thing.
Cause the money, the profit was so good. Right.
I remember I went around the corner and one of
the bad guys who was from El Paso in broken English
says, dog, he found me, busted me. But anyways,
so I was wrapping up, putting stuff in my truck
in the parking lot. And I got a call from Curtis
Graves because in the meanwhile, there were so
many wolves that were disappearing. And you got
to remember that. A couple of things were happening
is the congressional delegations in Washington
DC were, and the nonprofit groups were putting
so much pressure on them, they wanted stuff to
be done. They wanted wolf investigations to be
done, completed, and they wanted people prosecuted.
And so there was a lot of heat in the headquarters
in the Albuquerque SAC office or the regional
office. So we were under a lot of heat to make
cases. With that being said is a supervisor at
the time, Had developed this scan scan letter
that was being sent out to hunters where they
would answer it. And that supervisor thought
that she could look at the letter and see who
was lying in cases that way. This is a true story.
And they wanted me on this case to do that. Oh
boy. And being old school, as you say, I refuse
to, even though I didn't tell him that, but I
dragged my feet. And she would call me every
month and where are you with, how come I'm not
getting scan letters? Oh, I'm working on it,
I'm working on it. And then one night at my house
at about 10 o 'clock at night, a supervisor from
DC called me and said, where are you at on those
scan letters? And I'm like, oh no, I'm getting
heat on this from DC now. And he's like, don't
send any. And I was like, why? And he said, he
was just in a congressional committee meeting.
That was brought up and there was so much. The
sportsmen in New Mexico were complaining so bad.
The Fish and Wildlife Service said they will
never send any of those letters. So a scan letter,
I assume that's kind of like spam, right? It's
just like you're just blasting this same letter
off to all the hunters you you know of in that.
Yeah, did you hunt? Did you see? I mean, you
know, I I don't even remember a lot of it because
I I wasn't interested. I I didn't believe in
it because I always believe that you need to
go. and talk to people in person. Because as
you know, as an investigator, there's signs that
you see when you talk to people, how they react
or whatever. But that was a huge deal. Thank
God I didn't send it on this case, because it
really would have gone in the way later on. Interesting.
You mentioned Curtis Graves. Curtis Graves was
a special agent with the US Fish and Wildlife
Service. He was the very first agent assigned
to that area specifically to work on wolf cases,
right? Yeah, because of the problem of all the
wolves that were being killed, the Fish and Wildlife
Service decided to put an agent as a resident
agent in the town, which would have been Pinetop,
Springerville area. that would be interconnections,
working with it. It was more of a community,
community policing idea. I was, I love that idea.
I really did. I do too. Yeah, I do too. I think
it's, I think it worked right. Yeah. It's critically
important. And I, what, I don't know, we're going
to get off on a little sidetrack here. One of
the things that always irritated me is that sometimes
other agents in the service, sometimes even other
supervisors would kind of like, not criticize,
but not even belittle, I don't know what the
right word is, but would somehow refer to those
agents that were assigned to work on specific
endangered species issues. Maybe it was manatee
issues in Florida, where we had agents assigned
only to work on manatee issues, where we still
do. And we have the dedicated wolf agents. I'd
hear people say, well, They're not working GS13
level cases like the agents in LA or New York.
And I'm like, that's bullshit. They're working
on a very high priority species. They're dedicating
their time to do those cases, which are really
freaking hard cases to make. I never did a crime
scene on a big animal in Los Angeles. These guys
are out in the field doing crime scenes at midnight
like you were. I was like, let's stop the bullshit
and let's just pay our agents. all the same that
are doing field agent work. Yeah. They're, they're,
they're bringing their families into these smaller
ones. Everybody, you know, it's, you can't be
hidden. Everybody knows what to do and who you
do and who your kids are and what your wife does.
And so there's a lot more, I think of a commitment
that some people don't understand. Yeah. And
if you want the agents to do it right and put
their heart and soul into it, you better treat
it. You better treat them like you think they're
important. Exactly. Curtis is like one of the,
he was one of my all time favorite agents to
work with. I never, I never got a chance to work
with him that much, but he came to LA a few times
when he was in special operations. Sure. And
I loved working with Curtis. Just a great guy.
Yeah. He, he called me and said he had heard
a rumor that some guy had killed a wolf and he
thought it was the part of my wolf case. Awesome.
We could come up and do an interview and that
all occurred while I was at the flea market.
So I ran home. Of course. Got a bunch of clothes,
of course. I learned that. It's got you learned
your lesson. The three or four hours I met Curtis.
He gave me some of the information. It wasn't
a lot, but it was a little bit of information.
What I had learned over the years of being a
game warden, an agent is sometimes the smallest
information you get makes the biggest case. Sometimes
the biggest information you get. Doesn't work
out, but anyways, what was the tip? What's the
tip that came in? What was it was that there
was a guy in town. that was that told somebody
that he'd been a part of, uh, of the killing
of a wolf had been interviewed before by an agent.
They told him it was a dog and that was it. And
so I met with Curtis, got the name, two names,
the two individuals. And he said, well, what
do you want to do? And I said, well, let's go
interview. Let's go re -interview them a hundred
percent. And he said, well, they were interviewed
a couple of years ago. And you know, nothing
happened. I said, well, let's go try it again.
So that's absolutely nice. Again, great detective
work, right? There's nothing wrong with re -interviewing
somebody that you've already talked to or somebody
else has talked to. Right. So, okay. So you go,
you go re -interview this subject. What'd you
learn? Well, interviewed a subject. Of course,
he told us that he was interviewed before by
an agent said it was a dog kept with that story.
So I thought, okay. So I asked the guy, I said,
Why don't you take me to the site where you killed
the dog. Nice. Good idea. You want to know where
I killed the dog? I said, yeah, take me up there.
Guess where he took me. He took me to Eskadiah
Mountain to a trailer park at the basis. Eskadiah
Mountain. And I said, tell me what happened.
He said the dog was over here. And I remember
Curtis looking at me like, why are we doing this
about a dog? But wait, I want to clarify something.
Escondido Mountain, you know, is where this 493
started out. It's not where the body was found,
right? But I knew there was a wolf there. Yes.
My lines were starting to match up. So I knew
there was more to this story than what he was
telling me. So spending a couple hours with him,
he was a nice kid. I liked him a lot. He was
a good kid. Had some hardships in his life, but
I liked the kid. You know, he's a local small
town kid, didn't have a lot of opportunities,
but I liked them. So we go back to town. I'm
taking them back to his apartment. And I said,
this is what I said to him. I said, your story
doesn't match up, but you know, my job is to
fit stuff in a puzzle, done it a hundred times
and your story doesn't match up. I think there's
a lot more that you would like to tell me and
get it off your chest. So he looked at me, closed
the door and said, uh, Let's go to the rodeo
grounds. So we went to the rodeo grounds in Springville,
which nobody was there and pulled up. And he
told me the whole story. He told me the story
of him and another guy who was his cousin. We're
at the trailer at Eskidia Mountain subdivision.
There was a rancher that drove by with the horse
trailer, told him there was a wolf in the subdivision.
They were cutting firewood. The guy who was with
said, you know, let's get rid of these wolves
went in got a sks rifle and a 22 they saw the
wolf at the fence line they shot it they ran
over to it they killed it and this was broad
day in the middle of the day they got really
nervous on what to do they left it there and
that night they loaded a bunch of firewood in
the back of their truck put the wolf in the middle
of the firewood and drove it to new mexico and
Whoa. They drove it across the state line in
a back road. They never hit the highway. Went
up to the Jim Smith peak, dumped it out. And
they did, uh, push its nose into the ground because
of their hatred to the wolves. And I was like,
wow. So in those days, I don't, it's kind of
a hidden art. And I will say this got it all
in an ad written affidavit. Cause you had him
write it out. Beautiful written affidavit. He
signed it. I had it. So, so the other guy, uh,
the main shooter, kind of the organizer of it
was in the whole brick power plant. They were
shut down. He was scraping the sulfuric acid
out of the, out of the big towers. What was his
name? His name was James Rogers. Hey, before
we get to this, so now you're going to go interview
James Rogers, who's like your prime suspect,
right? Yes. I want to point something out for
listeners. You mentioned that you keyed in on
the importance of things like the nose pushed
down and the root, this wolf was shot in Escondido
and ends up over in New Mexico, which matched
the radio collar data. The important thing to
remember here is when people sometimes think
about confessions. We know this, but a lot of
people kind of forget, or maybe they just don't
know. A confession by itself is not enough to
convict somebody. You have to have corroborating
evidence. And so when you were out at that crime
scene and you were smart enough to note fine
details such as the nose was pushed into the
dirt and that seemed unusual, that became actually
very, very important later because that corroborates
his confession. Correct, right. Because who else
would know that fact, right? Right. So that was
a very, what I love about this case that you
did, Doug, is from beginning to end, it was very
smartly done. It was very intelligently handled.
You document these small things that maybe might
not even turn out to be important, but maybe
they are. And you noticed that that nose pushed
in the dirt was unusual. You documented it. Two
years later, this guy confesses, and part of
his confession is, we pushed the nose into the
dirt. That is corroborating evidence of the confession.
Now you can use the confession to convict him.
Right. Beautiful. Beautiful work. Beautiful work.
Thank you. I appreciate that. Yeah. It's good
detective work, man. OK. I thought I was just
lucky. Well, there's always luck in good detective
work. There's always luck, 100%. We all, we all
know that. So Doug, we'll just whisper that part.
There's a lot of luck in detective work. Okay.
You said this, you said the quiet part out loud.
Okay. Okay. So now we're going to go interview
James Rogers. You go to this plant where he's
working with his hard hat. It's the power plant
in Holbrook, Arizona, which is closed because
they're working on the, you know, it closes.
But I remember I went to the gate. And the guy,
I had long hair there and a big bushy beard and
a big green coat. And he's like, what are you
a bounty hunter? And then I said, no, I'm here
to interview a guy about a wolf. And I never
forget the security guy says who gives a damn
about a wolf, but I go boy. So anyways, they
let me use the security trailer. He came down
and he denied it. Of course. Uh, denied it quite
a bit. And then I did show him the affidavit
that his co -conspirers or his partner had written,
still denied it. Still denied it. Still denied
it. And so we talked a little bit more. I was
about ready to leave. And I said, at that time,
and I know you've probably interviewed other
people on this in Montana, but there was the
McKittrick decision or the McKittrick thing was
going on. At that time, McKittrick was They were
putting his face on t -shirts and posters. He
was kind of the poster boy of anti wolf in Montana.
I told him that I said, you know, they've even
written a book on this guy. He's written a book
about how he hates wolves. And I went through
the whole thing. I'll never forget it. And the
guy looked at me and he said, really? Is that
true? And I said, yeah, it is true. I I'm not
telling you anything that's false. And he said,
I killed the damn wolf. You've got to be kidding.
I said, really tell me about it. Told me the
same story. The other guy told me, uh, he added
a few things in the end, got an affidavit. He
signed it. And I, then I said, well, where's
the SKS and where's the 22 right? Yeah. And he
said, well, when the first guy, the first agent
interviewed us, I got so nervous. I drove it
to Pueblo, Colorado. and got rid of him and gave
him to a relative. I don't remember if it was
a cousin or father or mother. He said, after
a year went by and nothing happened, I went and
got him back. And so he said, I got a little
nervous and I don't know why, but he got nervous
a week before I showed up. I have no idea why.
Interesting. He took them all apart, put them
in a plastic bag and buried them in his backyard
at a trailer park. I said, well, I need those.
He said, well, I'm working. I can't get them
now. But get a hold of my wife. She's in the
trailer park. And he gave me her information.
So after I got the affidavit and everything,
I started to leave. And so went over to her house.
OK, wait. Go ahead. I still, I just got to reiterate.
All right. You got this guy's confession because
you told him. that McKittrick was a hero among
anti -wolf people and he wanted to be a hero
among anti -wolf people. He wanted to be the
hero in Arizona as an anti -wolf, get support
from all the ranchers and all the people that
hated wolves. That's what he believed. He believed,
actually believed in that. He kept saying that
over and over again, I'm going to be a hero.
And I kept saying, you got to make sure what
you're telling me is true. Don't make anything
up to be the hero. And he's like, no, I'm going
to tell you. And he did. It was identical to
what the statement that we had got before. And
did you kind of have that, when you started to
tell him about McKittrick, did you kind of think
maybe this guy's got an ego on him and he'll
want to be famous? That was smart, Doug. He's
going to be in a book. I loved it. I love it.
Okay. Later, the ranchers didn't support him
and little did he know. Well, you know, a little
bit of information I got later on about them
was from a rancher. But anyway, interesting.
Okay. So they weren't okay. Well, that's good.
Yeah. Anyway, so went to the house. He was there
and there was a little baby there and, and I,
you know, young, young gal. And she's like, let's
go out. So we went in the backyard. Now it's
dark. It's like 11, 12 o 'clock at night. We're
shining flashlights and we couldn't find, she
couldn't remember exactly. I couldn't find an
indentate. I mean, couldn't find them. But she
was willing to help you. That's good. She really
was. She was real cool about it. And then I said,
you know, if you remember where they're at, where
he gets home from work or whatever, could you
dig them up and take them to the police department?
And then I left and you know, that night I'm
like, they're gone. You're never going to see
those guns. Next morning, the Springerville Police
Department lady called me and said, hey, I got
a couple of guns that are taken apart in plastic
bags. They're sitting out front. I was like,
seriously? So I went and got them and there they
were. There was an SKS and the 22. So this is
where we say the quiet part out loud. That was
freaking lucky. That's awesome, Doug. Okay. So
she actually found them. Somebody dug them up
and turned it was him or her. I don't know, but
she's the one who brought them by to the police
department. That is freaking amazing. Right.
So then I had a supervisor, Steve Middleton out
of Phoenix, Arizona, who came up and I liked
Steve because you know, anything big, he would
come up and get involved in. And I appreciate
that. I mean, he'd come out into the field. And
I remember when I got the affidavit, he was sitting
there and he's like, how'd you do? And he was
from the Southeast, had that accent. And I said,
Steve didn't get, didn't work out. And he's like,
damn it, you know, that always happens on these
cases. And I handed him the affidavit and he's
like, I'll be gone. That's awesome. So anyways,
what a great case, man. Yeah. So, you know, had
to put all, put all the fit, all the pieces together
to make the case. Uh, and then of course the
big, the big thing for, for agents in the fish
and wildlife service and wildlife cases is getting
it accepted by the U S attorneys. Yeah, that
was my next question is when presumably now you
go to a United States attorney to prosecute,
what, what was the, who'd you run into? at the
U .S. Attorney's office. What was the response?
Again, you know, I was up helping Curtis on another
Wolf case and it had snowed like a foot and I
was up in Pinetop and I got a call. U .S. Attorney
wants to meet with you first thing at eight o
'clock in the morning and I drove by the Mogollon
Rim in a snowstorm following a semi. I didn't
know I was going to make it. And so I pull into
Phoenix, my whole bed on my truck's full of snow.
Of course, Phoenix is melting like crazy. And
one of the local agents there let me stay at
his house. Cause of course we're still on travel
restrictions. And so I went to the U S attorney's
office, met assistant U S attorney for the first
time, uh, Camille Bible. She's now the magistrate
and flag staff. I got lucky, you know, again,
her dad used to be I had met her dad years ago.
He was the BLM state director. So she had a huge
background in natural resources and worked with
her with the case. And she did a phenomenal job
of helping. Fantastic. She charged him. She did.
And he was charged in Flagstaff in Arizona. And
the magistrate at that time had grown up. His
dad was the head of concessions at Grand Canyon.
So he had a huge interest in natural resources.
And when the defendant came and now we got, you
know, this is unusual for wildlife cases. We
got, we got news trucks from Phoenix and reporters.
And I mean, this is going to, I'm not used to
this in a magistrate court hearing. Anyways,
the guy went up, pled not guilty and whatever.
And then later on he pled guilty. in front of
the judge, and he told the judge if it was to
happen again, it'd still kill a wolf. And I sat
there thinking, okay, so then the judge gave
him a six month sentence, I think four in prison
and six at home confinement or whatever, and
so much probation, and sent him off to federal
prison, which is unheard of because a lot of
people don't realize, you know, A violation of
the Endangered Species Act is a misdemeanor.
It's a misdemeanor. And of course, when Mexican
gray wolves are special rule wolves that we call,
so it makes them threatened. So the penalty for
threatened is up to six months. And I remember
after all this was being done, reporters were
calling biologists, managers, why didn't he get
more time? And I'm like, this is all that the
law allows. which is the maximum, so let's be
happy with that. But a lot of people, even within
the service, didn't understand. Yeah, they don't
even understand. That's the penalty. Yeah, when
I speak to the public and you talk to them about
that, even if you were to kill the last rhinoceros
or the last tiger or the last grizzly bear in
the world, under the Endangered Species Act,
you'd be facing a maximum penalty of one year
in jail. That's it. It's a Class A misdemeanor.
And then like you said with wolves, because they're
reintroduced and they're being, there have to
be some special rules, like you said, for management
in case there's conflict with livestock. They
actually end up with a threatened status, which
if it's an endangered animal, the maximum penalty
is one year in jail, $100 ,000 fine. If it's
a threatened animal, it's a Class B misdemeanor,
which is six months in jail, max, and $25 ,000
fine. $25 ,000, that's right. You know, so that's
kind of one of the things that does help a little
bit is under the CFR, the Code of Federal Regulations
under special rules had certain guidelines. Like
if you were to walk up to a wolf and say, oh,
it's a wolf and not report it within so many
hours to the service, that's a violation. You're
like, oh, it's a wolf. Throw it in your truck
or your possess it. That's another violation
So yeah, so time out here because I want to wait
for a second to talk about this because this
relates to another I think in my opinion very
intelligent way you approach this case because
First of all, let me just say this first You
put a guy in jail for a Mexican gray wolf take
case or a poaching case and to my knowledge That
is the only case where a Fish and Wildlife Service
agent has actually put somebody in jail for killing
a Mexican gray wolf since reintroduction. Now,
I may be wrong. If I am, any agent who has put
somebody in jail, please email me and we'll make
a correction on a future episode. But I don't
think anybody else has put anybody in jail for
a Mexican gray wolf. They might have gotten a
conviction, but they probably didn't get a sentence
of actual jail time. So kudos to you for actually
putting somebody in jail. Good for you. Well,
no, I appreciate that. And of course, are you
aware of any other cases where an agent I am
not most get probation $500 fine or pay restitution
or something like that. I think some of the other
cases we did that was kind of the end result
of it. So first of all, we call them pretrial
diversion program. Oh, yeah, don't even get me
started. You know, so kudos to you. The guy starts
out pleading not guilty and then he changes his
plea to guilty. That's a very tight case you
made, because what that means is he saw the discovery.
He pled not guilty, and then the government turned
over discovery, and him and his lawyer went through
it and were like, we're screwed. You better plead.
But then he was stupid enough to stand in front
of a judge and say he'll do it again if he had
the opportunity. Yeah, and there was no misidentification
when he pulled the trigger. He knew it was a
wolf. He just know it was a wolf. Yeah, and that's
the next thing I want to talk about is that this
is 1998. This is post the McKittrick case and
appeals. And we now have a memo issued by the
Department of Justice saying that US prosecutors
will no longer seek a jury instruction that says
that the government does not need to prove that
a defendant knew the identity of the species
when they took it or killed it. So in other words,
what this means is when McKittrick was convicted,
The jury did not have to conclude that he knew
it was a wolf, only that he intentionally killed
an animal. Right. But because of this memo, the
McKittrick memo, on its own, the US Department
of Justice decided, no, now we do have to prove
that. We do have to prove that when a person
killed a wolf, they knew the identity of it when
they shot it, which is not what the law says.
And that's not what Congress intended. That's
correct. And you had some evidence that they
did know it was a wolf when they shot it, which
is great. But what I love about you telling this
story when you and I have talked about it before,
you say, I don't care if he knew. And the reason
why is because under the prohibited acts in the
Endangered Species Act, there's a lot of things
that are prohibited. Aside from just killing
the animal. And so tell us a little bit about
that. Why weren't you concerned about the McKittrick
memo interfering with the Mexican gray wolf because
of the special rules under the CFR is the code
of federal regulations. There's certain things
like, like you, you got to call within so much
time. You got to notify the sir. And I don't
remember if it was 48 hours, 72 hours. I don't
remember, but it was something like that. And
the other thing was possession. And so. Those
are kind of things that happen after the killing
of the wolf, which are different. They're different
violations, but I'm going to put a button here.
Same penalty. Yeah, exactly. Same penalty. Whether
you didn't report it within a certain amount
of time is still six months or $25 ,000 under
the special rule. So and possessing it when they,
when they killed it over in Escondido and they
picked it up and put it in their pickup truck,
they're in possession now of a Wolf that was
illegally killed. Beautiful. So you don't care
about McKittrick? No, I didn't. Because once
they walked up and they're like, hey, that's
a wolf. I didn't talk about McKittrick to the
US Attorney's office because of course that's
on their radar. But they concurred and they went
with the case. And there's another element to
this too, the transport, right? So the transport
becomes a Laciak violation as well. Yeah. And
I want to say, I think the Laciak was charged,
I don't know if He was, I don't think he was
convicted of that. I think upfront it was talked
about with, with the defense attorneys. Uh, and
you're, you're absolutely right. Because of course
the Lacey act has certain law predications and
one, of course, is a predication of the Lacey
act is a, is another federal wildlife law as
it was tribal law or state law. Right. Right.
So the illegal possession and then driving it
to New Mexico would have triggered the Lacey
act. So they probably pled that out as part of.
agreement to plead guilty. I think it was, yeah.
Well, Doug, this case, I love this case. I love
hearing you tell it. I think it should be an
encouraging case. Anybody who's currently working
on Mexican gray wolf cases, they can be made.
You did a great job on it. I've been asking all
my guests, what do you personally think? As a
former Fish and Wildlife agent, as just a citizen,
What are your views on the Mexican gray wolf
reintroduction and how it's going? Well, I got
to give kudos to the people that have been involved
with it from the start because politically it
was a nightmare. Sometimes, you know, and there's
people that are still working in the project
that I still hear from. They still call me. But
I give them a lot of credit for sticking with
it, because I think it's one of those things
that it would have been easy to walk away from.
Now, do I believe in the Mexican gray wolf program?
Of course I do. Do I believe the way it's managed?
I'm sure there's different ways or it can be
it can be realigned maybe differently. But, you
know, yeah, you know, I'm going to tell you this.
I'm really proud that I was a part of it. I really
am, you know. Here I am retired doing other things.
And, and, and I, I still, I'm, you know, I had
done grizzly bear enforcement, which was a lot
like this with when in Montana, when I was a
state officer, but, but with the Mexican gray
wolf, it, uh, you know, highly complex, highly
challenging. And I think a lot of people that
are still in that program, we got to give them
a lot of credit for, for keeping with it. Absolutely.
I was talking about grizzly bears in New Mexico.
I'm like, uh -oh. Well, yeah, here I am in California,
and we're starting to talk about bringing grizzly
bears back to California. We were all like, same
thing. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And we have,
there's at least 78, maybe closer to 100 wolves
have reclaimed parts of California. I didn't
know. I knew some had moved into yours. to California,
but I didn't know that many. Yeah, I was surprised
to hear that, too. There's three or four packs
living in northeastern California, which is,
in my view, pretty cool. There's a lot of conflict
with cattle industry, but hopefully it'll get
worked out. Right, exactly. But Doug McKenna,
thank you so much for being on the show. This
was a great case. Loved hearing about it. I appreciate
you taking the time to tell us the story. Thank
you for being on. And I really appreciate the
invite. So thank you very much. Great seeing
you again. You bring back a lot of old memories.
And I appreciate that. Thank you. Good memories,
right? Absolutely. All right. All right. Doug,
thanks so much for being on the show. Everybody,
we'll see you next time. Nature's Secret Service
is written and produced by me, Ed Newcomer, and
is co -produced by the DHTV team here at California
State University, Dominguez Hills. Follow us
on social media and connect with us online at
naturessecretservice .com.