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OK, people, listen up. Here we go. This is Nature's
Secret Service, the podcast that puts you in
the room with the men and women of wildlife law
enforcement. I'm Ed Newcomer, your host. And
we are continuing with season three in our deep
dive on wolves in the United States and their
return to the wild. It's time we start talking
about Mexican gray wolves because a lot of what
we've talked about so far has been the Wolves
that were released in Yellowstone and the Yellowstone
ecosystem up there in 1995 the northern gray
wolves and now it's time to focus on the Mexican
wolves Joining us today is a fantastic guest
Sherry Barrett. I've known Sherry for a long
time She was a biologist with the US Fish and
Wildlife Service and has been involved in the
protection and recovery of endangered and threatened
species throughout the southwestern United States
for, geez, three decades. She has worked on multi
-species conservation plans in southern California,
desert conservation plans in the southwest, dealing
with everything from desert tortoises to Mexican
gray wolves. And in fact, from 2011 until she
retired in 2018, She was the recovery coordinator
for the Mexican gray wolf program, which I mean,
I could have her talk about it, but we want to
jump into the meat of our conversation today.
But basically as the director of that program,
she was responsible for all of it. Field activities,
the captive breeding program, development of
the endangered species policies around Mexican
wolves. And now even in retirement, she's still
involved volunteering her time to help. with
the recovery of Mexican wolves. In fact, before
we came on air, she just told me that just yesterday
she was out helping to capture a Mexican gray
wolf. So Sherry, welcome to the podcast. Thank
you very much for agreeing to be on. I think
you're such a valuable part of the story we're
trying to tell in season three. Thank you. Thank
you, Ed. It's a pleasure to be here. Yeah, and
great to see you again. I think it's been many
years since I saw you. We went through some programs
together in the Fish and Wildlife Service. And
we stayed in touch for a long time. And it's
been a while, though, since we actually saw each
other in person. So great to see you today. Yeah.
Good to see you too. Can you tell us, so we're
really launching now into a discussion about
the Mexican gray wolves. Can you just tell us,
first of all, a little bit about Mexican gray
wolves versus what's up? in the northern part
of the US, the northern gray wolf. So Mexican
gray wolves are a subspecies of the northern
gray wolf. And so they're genetically unique.
They're a smaller animal. They're golden retriever
size, 50 to 80 pounds, whereas those in the northern
gray wolf population, they're easily 100 pounds
or more. And so it's a smaller animal, and they
don't come in all gray or all blacks colors.
They're gray, sometimes a little bit of cinnamon
in there. Interesting. OK. So if you were to
see one in the wild next to a northern gray wolf,
would you know instantly, oh, I'm looking at
a different species or different animal? It would
depend on if that was a smaller northern. you
know, or younger northern gray wolf. So yeah,
and then the range of the Mexican wolf was kind
of central Mexico, north into southern New Mexico,
western, southwestern, excuse me, southeastern
Arizona, and then into western Texas. Okay, yeah,
that was my next question. What was kind of the
history of the Mexican gray wolf? What was its
range in the U .S.? And like, why Why do we need
a reintroduction program for the Mexican gray
wolf? So what what's their history? Can you tell
us a little bit more about that? Yeah, the history
of the Mexican gray wolf is pretty bleak it back
in the mid to late 1800s there was extensive
livestock grazing in southwestern United States
and Mexico You know going from numbers of livestock
in the tens of thousands up in just maybe a couple
of decades to over a million. And so it was extensive.
It caused a lot of erosion. But it also depleted
the native animals, the prey base for Mexican
wolves. And so they did turn to some livestock
depredation. And that triggered a really hard
effort to remove predators from the wild. These
were often not only bounties, but also federal
employees that were hired or people that were
contracted to go down. And they targeted bears,
wolves, cougars, coyotes. And so they, by the
mid 1900s, Mexican wolves were pretty much eradicated
from the United States. There were still a few
in... Mexico. And so things change. Mindsets
of people in the United States changed over time.
And in the 60s, there was the Starker -Leopold
report that really criticized the federal policies
for getting rid of predators. And other things
happened in the 1970s. That was under President
Nixon. We got the environmental protection agency,
and also signed into law the National Environmental
Policy Act, the Clean Air Act, and importantly
for this, the Endangered Species Act. And so
all of that was a major mindset change from those
massive predator elimination policies of previously
moving forward. And so in about 1977, the Fish
and Wildlife Service hired Roy McBride, who was
previously a federal predator trapper involved
in killing off some of these predators. But they
hired him to go down into Mexico and trap some
of the last remaining Mexican wolves in the wild.
And he brought back over three years, 77 to 80s,
he brought back five animals. And from those
five, there were three founders, and that's just
because some of them are related. One was a pregnant
female also, and so they actually never trapped
her mate, but he was a founder because the offspring.
So it's a little complicated there, but... three
of those animals. And then they found four more
later on in captive populations that were determined
by genetics to be pure Mexican wolves. Interesting.
So those seven animals became the founding population
for all Mexican wolves now. Wow. So when you
say founders in that first group, that first
five that were captured in the wild down in Mexico,
when you say founders, what does that mean exactly?
I'm not really sure what that means. Well, it
means that those are the animals from which all
the genetics are derived into the current population.
I see. So they started and were mating those,
breeding those together to create a captive population.
So what you did basically was you took seven
animals and you had to grow a captive population
first. Right. And so from those then you could
eventually release into the wild. But first you
had to have a population in the captive breeding
program that was sustainable. So right now there's
still a captive breeding program and there's
about 350 Mexican wolves in about 60 facilities
in the United States and Mexico. And these facilities,
what are they? Are they zoos? Is that what I'm
assuming? Some are, yes. Most of them are zoos,
and some are wolf breeding facilities. OK. And
was that part of something you were responsible
for kind of coordinating and overseeing as the
recovery coordinator? It was under my purview.
I had an excellent staff who had been working
with these facilities for many years. And she
was the one that worked directly with them. OK.
So they coordinate. It's under the auspices of
the American Aquarium and Zoos Association. And
so they have a program for individual endangered
animals. And from that, it's a computer stud
book. And they know which animals need to be
bred each year to maintain the genetic diversity
as much as possible. So with only seven founders,
you're not going to increase that genetic diversity
unless you find a new animal, which we know we
won't now. It's been too many years. But you
can maintain as much as possible. And that's
one of the goals of the recovery program, is
to maintain that genetic diversity to the extent
you can. You will always lose some each year,
some percent. Yeah, I think the Fish and Wildlife
Service has had a similar problem, or not problem,
but we'll call it a challenge, with other species
that were almost completely extinct, like the
black -footed ferret, and I think even the California
condor, they've had to really juggle the genetics
to make sure that they don't end up with negative
consequences from inbreeding, right? Correct.
Yeah. All of those, yeah. Must be a huge challenge
to do that, especially, I assume, computerization
has helped. But can you imagine, like in the
70s and 80s, trying to sort this out with no
computers, and you're trying to keep all this
straight? Right. Must have been crazy. It would
be more challenging. And the other thing that
happens each year then is you're transferring
these animals among these different, 60 different
facilities. Right. And, you know, it's a lot
of work. Because some of them are all the way
in New York, St. Louis, State of Washington,
down here in Arizona and New Mexico. There are
several different locations. And so we also are
benefited by the lighthawk, which is a group
of volunteer pilots. Oh, cool. Who use their
own planes. And they help transport these animals
around, which is really great. And sometimes,
although it's just a very long drive in a van
with wolves in the back. Right, right. And I'm
sure that could blow your budget pretty fast
if you were trying to move, fly animals around
just to maintain the genetics. Your recovery
budget could get blown through pretty quickly,
I assume, right? Correct. So volunteers like
that are very helpful. I want to back up just
for a second because I don't think we can stress
enough. And of course, in other episodes, we've
talked about this too in this season. This all
out assault on predators in the Western United
States, like you said, starting in the late 1800s.
And just for background, and correct me if I'm
wrong on this, but you know, The earliest as
the United States was starting to move into you
know beef production The cowboy culture really
got started because This cattle as you mentioned
these cattle ranches and these cattle operations
that were operating in the southwest You know
throughout, you know, Texas and the southwest
and Mexico Once a year, twice a year, they would
have these huge, they'd move their cattle in
huge drives to cities like Dodge City, the classic
frontier towns where all these lawmen got their
names dealing with rowdy cowboys that were coming
up from the Southwest, right? And so like you
said, a lot of environmental damage caused by
just that many hoofed animals moving, very different
than bison. And along the way, Cowboys were killing
every predator they could find because they didn't
want their calves to hit. And this then morphed
into the actual government policy to eliminate
predators, cougars, coyotes, foxes, badgers,
anything that would prey, eagles, anything that
would prey on a cow would be a target for this
operation. And that included wolves. Do you know,
I think the last recorded gray wolf was killed
in Yellowstone in 1926, I believe. Do you know
when the last Mexican gray wolf was known to
be roaming around the wild? Well, it would have
been with Roy McBride, and so it would have been
down towards Durango. OK, but Mexico. What about
in the 80s? What about in the United States?
Oh, in the United States. It was around mid -1900s,
so about 1950. OK, yeah. I think Aldo Leopold
even documented, I can't remember what year,
he's kind of famously documented himself as killing
a wolf once. And I believe that was in New Mexico.
I think it was a northern gray wolf. And he regretted
that later in his career. And I think that was
after 1926. I can't remember exactly. But yeah,
between 1920 and 1940, pretty much the last wolves
in the United States were gone. They were pretty
effective with gassing pups, poisoning, trapping,
hunting, everything. Coyotes are kind of famous
for responding with larger litters under pressure.
So the more pressure you put on coyotes, the
more coyotes they produce. I assume that is that
not true for wolves or how do they if they're
under pressure to the no wolves are pretty susceptible
to especially poison And they only breed once
a year. I see Coyotes I believe can breed more
than once a year if necessary as well You know
you and I'm gonna jump ahead to something I was
going to talk about later because you you told
me about this and I didn't know this before but
gray wolves, meaning the northern gray wolf and
the Mexican gray wolf, do they, I think a myth
out there among anti -wolf people and ranchers
is that they will interbreed with coyotes. And
you told me that's not true. And they don't.
They don't. No. And Mexican wolves, every animal
that's ever captured or encountered, there's
blood drawn. And so they run genetics on every
Mexican wolf that's ever in hand. And there's
never been any incident of coyote genes in those
wolves. OK. But from that blood DNA test, they
can also figure out parentage. So that's also
helpful in figuring out the genetic diversity,
et cetera, in the wild. Yeah. So modern science
has really solved that question forever. Yeah.
OK. Yeah. Interesting. OK. So now, after this
capture, there's been captive breeding. At some
point, Fish and Wildlife Service in the states
get to a point where they think there's enough
wolves that they can release into the wild. When
was the first year that the Mexican gray wolf
was returned to wild places? It was 1998, and
it was under President Clinton and Secretary
of the Interior Bruce Babbitt. Secretary Babbitt
was very, very interested in returning Mexican
gray wolves and other wolves as well to the wild
to address the sins of the past. And so they
released two families of Mexican wolves into
forest service lands in Arizona. And remarkably,
those wolves had never been in the wild. They
came from captivity. They were reared in the,
you know, in captivity. But their instincts for,
uh, through the prey drive became almost instant
and they were killing elk. No kidding. And in
fact, the down in Mexico, there aren't elk. Well,
there's some private herds now, but, uh, Mexican
wolves, especially down in Mexico did not evolve
with elk. And so they more with, um, white tail
deer and have Alina. Um, and so that people weren't
really sure what the smaller Mexican gray wolf
was going to prey on. But in fact, it is elk.
That's interesting. 80 % of their diet is elk.
And a lot of that's during when elk calves. Right.
They do go after elk calves and also gut piles
during the hunting season in the fall. Right.
Right. So that's part of their elk diet. But
they also can... a pack of wolves can take down
an adult. Interesting. So they're primarily evolved
around deer, but presumably some elk as well.
But even the ones raised in captivity quickly
adapted to killing large ungulates, huh? Yes.
That's interesting. And of course, that's going
to raise red flags with every hunter who's going
to try to claim that these wolves destroy elk
populations. We're going to jump around a little
bit here. But you were the coordinator from 2011
to 2018. So that's seven years, give or take.
And obviously, you've been in the service much
longer. What's your experience with the Mexican
gray wolves' impact on elk populations in Arizona
and New Mexico? The elk populations are actually
monitored and managed by the state game departments,
both in New Mexico and Arizona. And they monitor
individual populations. And they're showing that
the elk populations are stable, are increasing
in both states. So that's a good thing. But hunters
will say that elk are not in the places that
they used to find them. And that's probably true.
Because elk, if left alone, they will just stay
in meadows and riparian ecosystems where they
find a lot of good browse. And that can be very
detrimental to those ecosystems. So elk move
them around, make them go to different places.
And I'm sure that that does seem like there's
fewer elk than where hunters used to find them.
Yep, absolutely. And this is something that I
has always kind of befuddled me about the hunters
who claim that the wolves are depleting the elk
and deer populations. Because not just in New
Mexico and Arizona, but Wyoming, Idaho, Montana,
the counts every year and the number of deer
taken by hunters, et cetera, do not support that
conclusion. Anybody who hunts or enjoys the outdoors,
it just doesn't take that much brain power to
understand that, yeah, 30 years ago, 25 years
ago, even before wolves were growing in numbers,
if you went out, you'd see large herds of elk
hanging out in a meadow. It's pretty unconcerned
with everything. Pretty easy to shoot them. Pretty
easy to stalk them and hunt them and shoot them.
Now, wolves are causing them to disperse. They
have to stay on the move. And so, yeah, of course.
Me with my binoculars, you with your rifle, somebody
else with their bow and arrow, they're not seeing
as much elk as they used to because the elk are
moving. So this is what gets me is the fact that
you don't see as many elk doesn't necessarily
mean they aren't there. It's just something's
changed and it's movement. So to me, it's like
this rumor has gone around that pretty much started
with probably two guys at a bar drinking a beer
talking about hunting and how they don't see
as many elk as they used to 20 years ago. And
somehow that morphed into that must be because
the wolves are killing them all, which doesn't
follow, right? Anyway, I think it's interesting
because it's part of the other side of the biological
discussion because there is another very valid
Argument that's probably true that the elk are
actually benefited by having these predators
in their environment in terms of healthier herds,
right? Healthier stronger herds Yeah, and I think
it's interesting because How many wolves were
released in? The Mexican gray wolves in 1998.
It was how many well, there's two families Yeah,
so small and just to clarify that a family a
pack is two breeding adults their offspring usually
from a year before or so, and then pups of the
year. So, not large. That first year, how many
you think we would have been talking about released?
Less than 10 for sure, right? Yeah, I think there
was maybe, I think it was five to seven per pack.
And there was two packs released. So maybe 10
to 14. About 14 animals, I think. And now that
was 1998. Now how many Mexican wolves are estimated
to be running loose in in New Mexico and Arizona.
Well, so the interesting thing with wolves is
it's not an estimate, it's actual count. And
they do a count once a year in January, February.
And that's for the previous year. So January,
February of 26 tells you what wolves were alive
through December 31st of 2025. I see. OK. And
so they do it based on uh, camera traps and,
uh, sightings and then also, uh, generally from
helicopter and fixed wing to, cause there, the
goal is to have at least one caller, radio caller,
uh, per pack. And then, you know, you can that
pack and then count the individuals, especially
from the air, um, to find out how many are out
there. So what is the, it's harder as the, as
the population gets larger. What was the number
in most recent count? 319 319 so gone from 14
animals to 319 wolves and still the elk populations
are stable and or growing Correct. Do you know
if that is also true of deer populations in those
two states? I Don't know. I don't know the statistics
on the deer. Okay What's the primary prey species
of the Mexican gray wolves currently in New Mexico
and Arizona? Is it primarily deer or is it primarily
elk or do you know elk? 80 % of their diet is
interesting. Okay. So can you explain, I think
a lot of people like myself before I personally
visited it years ago, actually, do you know when
I visited Northern Arizona for the first time,
it was when you and I were going through the
advanced leadership development program. I was
did part of my detail at the one of the field
offices there in Phoenix and on a long weekend,
I went up to Northern Arizona. Yeah. I was surprised
at the habitat up there. Can you just describe
what the habitat's like, where these wolves are?
I think a lot of times people assume it's very
deserty and cactus everywhere. But that's not
necessarily true, is it, for that part of the
world? No. And in fact, the wolves really aren't
in the deserts. They are in the forest. Alpine,
Arizona is where the field office is, the group
that manages the animals in the wild. But they're
in the forested areas. Yeah. And it can be very
heavily forested up in those areas. I was surprised.
Correct. I was also surprised at how big the
elk are up there. I saw a few bull elk while
I was there. And I, having grown up in Colorado,
I'm used to seeing big bull elk. But I was shocked
how big the elk are there in Alpine, Arizona.
Yeah. And those have also recovered because they
were, the Miriam's elk were eliminated in Arizona
and then reestablished. some elk from north.
So they've also done well. They're doing very
well right now. Yeah. And then, you know, that
reminds me too of you mentioned that another
contributor to the loss of the Mexican gray wolf
in the late 1800s, early 1900s was depletion
of the prey species, deer and elk. And, you know,
in a previous episode on this podcast, we talked
with Mark Madison at the U .S. Fish and Wildlife
Service. He's the historian. He talked a lot
about the impact of market hunting in the late
1800s and early 1900s. And for anybody listening
or watching this podcast, you really have to
put yourself in the place in America at that
time. And deer and elk, ducks, wild animals were
being slaughtered in unsustainable numbers just
to supply the restaurant market on the East Coast
and Chicago area. And elk and deer were part
of that. It was as we were transitioning to a
industrial beef -based meat supply system, a
lot of the meat that was showing up in restaurants
around the country was wild game. And it was
having a dramatic impact not just on the species,
but other species. Like you start to take the
elk and the deer out, it affects the wolves that
are preying on them. And of course, they're going
to turn to whatever's available. And what's walking
around at the time were Cattle. Lots of them.
Which now brings me to the next question. In
your experience with the wolf recovery program,
we talk now a little bit about their impact on
deer and elk. In your experience, what was their
impact on domestic cattle and sheep in the Arizona,
New Mexico area? Yeah, so they do definitely
prey on and depredate cattle and livestock. There
are fewer sheep operations now than there used
to be in Arizona and New Mexico, mostly cattle.
And so that is a major management focus of the
interagency field team, which is comprised of
both state game agencies, White Mountain Apache
Tribe, Forest Service, Wildlife Services, and
the Fish and Wildlife Service. And jointly, those
agencies all work to minimize those depredations
on livestock. And a lot of, some of the most
effective is human presence. And so they hire
range riders to have that presence. But there's
also, wolves are really afraid of flapping flags.
So in small areas, you can use flattery. But
of course, you're not going to be able to use
that on very large areas of livestock operations,
right, but there's loud noises just different
techniques that they deploy to help the ranchers
and then there's also of course depredation compensation
and so There's a the Wildlife Services often
confused with Fish and Wildlife Service, but
Wildlife Services is Department of Agriculture
and they'll go out and determine whether or not
a cow has been or and kind of cattle have been
Depredated by a wolf or by something else. I
see and Because wolves also will scavenge and
so it could have died from something else and
the wolf is nearby or has the print nearby Because
they do But they can determine that if the bite
has hemorrhaging underneath it, that means the
animal was alive when that bite occurred. Right,
right, right. But anyways, based on that, then
these livestock operators can be compensated
for the cost of that animal. I see. OK. And there's
programs now in both Arizona and New Mexico that
are set up for that. And that's another good
point to remember is that A lot of these cattle
are run on US government leases on US Forest
Service property rate. So I remember this growing
up in Colorado. You go hiking in the forest,
any of the national forests in Colorado, and
it's pretty likely you're going to run into some
sheep or some cows. And it's because the US Forest
Service leases their property to ranchers. And
basically, the ranchers in the spring, they just
let their cattle go. And they roam around all
summer getting fat on federally owned grass.
But historically, they just let them go because
there weren't predators out there. So they didn't
need range riders. And they didn't need all these
things in the past. But they're getting the benefit
of really cheap leases on federal land and running
their cattle in pretty wild areas. So yeah, they're
running into cougars and wolves and things like
that, bears, as they would. How, as the coordinator,
certainly you had to kind of work with stakeholders
and local landowners and ranchers, right? Yeah.
How did you balance? We spent a lot. I bet you
did. What kind of things did you do to kind of
build relationships with those people and stay
informed about what their concerns were and inform
them about what the goals were and what the realities
were for wolf reintroduction? How did you? What
was that like? Yeah, with a lot of meetings in
ranchers' homes and stuff. They're good people.
It's a small business for the most part. There
are corporate ranchers out there, but they're
good people for the most part. An extra predator
on the land is going to affect their bottom line.
And so that's why we worked hard to find some
programs that would help them. And we did put
together a council when I first came on that
brought together some environmental groups, ranchers,
some of the White Mountain Apache tribe, and
tried to come up with some of these programs.
What would really be beneficial to them? Not
us telling them what it would be, but them telling
us what would help them. And that's where we
came to. Depredation compensation, of course,
but then also Payments for presents so there
there is a program in New Mexico now I'm not
sure there is one in Arizona right now, but recognizing
that if livestock are run more by wolves Then
they're going to lose weight and it's also true
that we don't find or they don't find all of
the Carcasses so they don't find all the the
animals that have been depredated. So there's
trying to The payments for presence is trying
to offset some of those additional issues that
they experience with another predator on the
land. And then there's also programs for them
to help with funding for like range riders or
other programs to try and deter the depredations.
What do you think among the landowners and ranchers
and hunters, what's the number one misperception
You know, yeah misperception among their ideas
about wolves and their interaction with cattle
or the environment Well a lot of we hear a lot
that wolves kill for fun, right? They don't wolves
are killing to eat Feed their their offspring.
It's it's interesting, you know, there's probably
lots of things you run into but if you think
trying to think of something else or another
one well I was kind of preparing for the season.
I just kind of snooped around on public records
that are available online from the US Department
of Agriculture. And they keep pretty specific
data about the causes of death of domestic cattle
in this country, sheep and cattle. And for both
sheep and cattle, the number one cause of death
is respiratory disease. And literally, it's like
over 90 % is respiratory disease. And that's
cattle that are roaming around loose all summer.
They're not monitored. They're not medicated
for anything. They're just living pretty much
like a wild domestic animal, a feral cow out
there in the wild. And yeah, they come down with
diseases. They have injuries. That's the primary.
There's local weed out there. There's poisonous
plants. Yeah. Bears actually take a lot of calves,
and feral dogs do, too. Yeah, the real interesting
numbers, the USDA numbers up in Wyoming and Idaho
and Montana specifically address bear depredation.
And they don't divide it into black bear or grizzly
bear. They just say bears. And it's there, but
it's usually around 2%, 3 % of the deaths are
caused by bears. Then you look at the other causes,
and it's like 90 % is respiratory disease. And
then there's others in there that still outstrip
what bears and predators cause. Even coyotes
don't cause that much damage to calves. But it's
kind of interesting. If anybody is interested
in that kind of thing, because that, to me, is
a number one misperception that I hear a lot
from people who are anti -wolf. And all I have
to say is, Just spend 20 minutes, go to the USDA
website, and start snooping around in old historical
data. It goes back to the 90s before wolves were
even reintroduced. It's not hard to look at what's
causing cattle death on public land. Anyway,
interesting. OK, so the killing for fun. Yeah,
I've heard that one too, but that's not true,
huh? No. OK. Animals, in general, don't expend
energy that they don't need to expend. Yes. Because
it's survival. The reverse of that. You're working
with stakeholders. You're having these meetings.
Is there anything like, I assume there are some
ranchers out there who are not anti -wolf. Did
you ever run into people who kind of got sold
on the idea or supportive of the program? Yeah,
definitely. And they are. They're very helpful
because they're willing to try a lot of these
new techniques that may come around and deploy
them on their landscape and work closely with
the field team. That's really key is to have
the ranchers call the field team when there's
a problem and the field team will help them try
and figure it out. Interesting. And I assume
these are like just regular ranchers, right?
Not mega rich people who own big, big ranches
and they can afford to lose cattle. These are
regular people. Some of them you've won over,
yeah? Like I said, both. Yeah, OK. There are
ranchers that fly helicopters back and forth
to their land and stuff. So there are ranchers
that have, you know, it's a secondary to their
real job someplace else. But those aren't necessarily
the only ranchers you've won over in your time?
No, it becomes a personal thing. The more time
you spend with people, the more you get to know
each other and trust each other and be able to
have conversations about what's necessary and
understand where they're coming from. Exactly.
And I think that's also true for, believe it
or not, wolves. In my conversation with Rick
McIntyre, I mean, It's really clear that, and
from my personal experience, too, the more time
you spend with wolves in the wild, watching them,
the more your attitude changes about them in
terms of how they behave and what your own personal
fears and biases might be against wolves. Definitely
changes how you look at them. Learning about
wolves, I think. Ranchers, they're pretty much,
they love the landscape being outdoors. there,
many of them are very interested in learning
about wolves. Yeah. And you know, just the whole
nature of wolves with their family ties and structure
that's not that different than humans is very
compelling to people once they learn about it.
Hey, there's a reason that domestic dogs descend
from wolves, right? They are very, if you really
start to look at it, wild wolves are very closely
intertwined with human beings in terms of behavior
and the way they work the landscape, right? Yeah,
it's kind of cool. OK, so the program's been
pretty successful. What's the number you have
to get to for Mexican wolves to be considered
recovered? The number is an average of 320 in
the United States over eight years. So that 319
that the program just hit for 2025, can start
factoring into that average for a delisting.
But it's also making sure that the genetic representation
from the captive population has been put into
the wild population. Because you can control
who breeds in the captive population, the captive
population has a higher genetic diversity than
the wild population, which breeds with you know,
as they want. Whoever they want to, right? Just
not coyotes. Yeah, just not coyotes. So the goal
has been to try and get that genetic representation
from the captive population into the wild. And
they've been doing that with fostering of pups
more recently. I mean, to establish the whole
population, it had to be packs. It had to be
families of wolves that were put out in the wild.
to get that population started and that was successful.
And now they're more focused on putting pups
which are less than 14 days old from these breeding
facilities and the ones that are of important
genetic, their parents were bred specifically
to maintain that genetic diversity. Those pups
are then taken into the wild and the smallest
usually of the Mexican wolf staff, they go into
the dens and the wolves are afraid of people.
So the parents, they run away. The small person
goes into the den and pulls out the puppies that
are in there. And they have to be within a few
days of those 14 day or less. pups that are coming
from captivity. So they're all about the same
size, because they grow pretty quickly. So a
few days can mean a pretty big difference in
size. So then they make sure that they all smell
the same. So you make them all kind of pee and
stuff from the den on everybody so they all smell
the same. That's incredible. And they never put
more than eight back in. They might take some
of those pups from the wild and take them back
to captivity. And they know when the female whelps
because of her radio collar, it stops moving
around as much. And so they know that she's gone
into a den. Interesting. And so put the pups
back in the den and then leave. And then not
long after, the mother will come back. And she's
got very strong maternal instincts. at that stage
right after, and that's why they have 14 days
or less strong maternal instincts. She can't
count. And so she just starts nursing those pups.
And then they're raised as wild pups by those
parents. Fascinating. So you're, I mean, this
is so crazy. You're talking about to maintain
genetic diversity. Sometimes you take puppies
from a breeding facility. And you time it just
right with a wild female that's also just given
birth. And you kind of swap out and intermix
the puppies to keep things. The logistics of
that sound incredible. I don't know how you do
that. Yeah, it is. It's an exhausting, because
it all happens. Wolves, like I said, they breed
once a year. So they're pretty much breeding.
around Valentine's Day, really. But they gestate
63 days and then have their pups pretty close
together. So if this is going to work, you're
doing several animals, packs, within a few weeks.
Like a week for a few days? Yeah, a few weeks.
OK. Incredible. Yeah. And so I think by the larger
numbers, I remember in one year was 22 pups coming.
into some of these dens. But the important thing
is that they've done at least 140 different pups
into these dens now, and they have about 20 that
have survived to breeding age. So it's not a
huge number, but those are also just the ones
that they have detected, because you can't put
a radio collar on a little pup. But you can put
microchips in them. So when you encounter them
again, you know where they came from. You also
know their genetics from that blood draw. So
they know at least 20 have made it to two years,
which is breeding age. And of those, there have
been at least 20 litters of... of new pups in
the wild based from these fosters. That is so
cool. This is such an awesome story. And it kind
of fits, because I know there's been some examples
up in Yellowstone of one wolf, a female wolf,
will raise the puppies of another wolf. If that
other female has died, they'll actually adopt
different wolves from a different mother. So
yeah, that maternal instinct is very strong.
And I assume pups have a fairly high mortality
rate their first year. They do. It's about 50%.
And what they're finding is that the fostered
pups' mortality is just about the same as the
pups in the wild. And you know, most species
have, they often have about a 50%. It's not uncommon.
Especially predators. Yeah, but there's kind
of a feast and famine type situation with them.
So speaking of mortalities, in the wild released
now wild Mexican wolves, aside from what would
be expected mortality of old age or encounters
with other wolves, what's the number one cause
of wolf mortality among the released wolves?
It would be human cause mortality. So that hasn't
changed. Wolves are, yeah, they do get shot.
And there's been cases, there's one case of a
rancher who killed a wolf with a shovel and he
did plead guilty and he ended up losing his forest
service grazing lease. The leases we were talking
about. Yeah. People have also shot wolves that
are wearing radio collars and they've also sometimes
removed those collars. But it still becomes a
difficult task to take those cases to court.
And it's because evidence is often scarce. Smaller
animals, if you shoot them, the bullet goes on
through often. And wolves are smaller than Mexican
wolves. So you don't have the bullet even. They're
out in the middle of nowhere. They're very remote.
And then, you know, when you do get a case, it's
difficult because you're taking it to a US attorney
who's also dealing with pornography, child abuse,
all sorts of other pretty important issues also.
Exactly. And so you're up against that plate
of other stuff. And then, as you know, the...
The other challenge is the McKittrick policy
that says they have to have known that it was
an endangered animal and it was a wolf. And so
that's also a challenge. I know I think you've
talked about that on some of your other podcasts.
Yeah, the McKittrick policy has come up before
and it is an anomaly that is causing a lot of
problems with the prosecution of endangered species,
not just wolves. But it has particularly impacted
wolf investigations and prosecutions. Like you
mentioned, some of these people are removing
collars and trying to hide the collars or destroy
the collars, which kind of is an indicator that
they know they killed a wolf versus something
else. But just like here's some just anecdotal
statistics from just talking to different people.
And these are very informal. But there's an estimate
among Law enforcement people that between 2017
and 2022 Sorry, 2020 2017 2022 there were about
61 suspicious wolf mortality So they were suspected
of being what we call illegal take which is poaching
either a shooting or a trapping or something
of that so 61 only two of those cases were prosecuted
and That's a lot of that has to do with proof
problems because they're difficult cases to make
And also McKittrick played a big role in a lot
of that because they get what are called declinations
from the US attorney's office because the US
attorney is basically nervous about going forward
where there could be this defense raised by the
defendant. And you bring up a great point. We've
talked about this before in previous seasons,
how the US attorney's offices are set up around
the country. And these are remote areas where
these wolves are released. So there's probably
no environmental crimes unit. It's probably a
smaller US attorney's office. And they do everything.
So like you said, when the special agent comes
in with a case, they're competing against bank
robbers, child pornographers, smugglers, drug
dealers, terrorists even, that the office has
got conflicting. And what are they going to go
with? They're going to go with the higher profile
case that maybe is easier to make. They're looking
at an Endangered Species Act misdemeanor involving
a wolf that's going to be very difficult to prove
because of the Department of Justice's own constraints.
So yeah, it must be really frustrating as a recovery
coordinator, right? Well, it was very frustrating
for us and the staff. It's also very frustrating
for the law enforcement. These cases are not
for lack of action by law enforcement and Fish
and Wildlife Service. They really put a lot of
effort into them. And even though they had very
few that got convictions, they still would investigate
and get out there as soon as they could. And
it was always impressive, really. Good. So you
always had a good relationship between the recovery
program and the law enforcement officers who
were out there. Yes, very much so. And the service,
the agents that work in New Mexico and Arizona,
regardless of where they are, they might be in
Phoenix, they might be in Albuquerque. Every
agent I know who has been assigned over the years
to New Mexico or Arizona has worked a wolf case.
They all kind of like it. It's all hands on deck
when there's a suspicious wolf and whoever's
closest, they'll handle it. Plus, Currently the
service does have one dedicated agent who works,
you know, primarily his primary responsibility
is to work on Mexican gray wolf cases and he's
Based right there in Alpine. So that's good.
You have somebody who can respond quickly Well,
and that's another important part of the we talked
earlier about the To get the animals recovered
in the other criteria that's in the recovery
plan is that the states Arizona New Mexico the
White Mountain Apache tribe who has a good population
out there, and also Mexico, all need to have
regulations in place that will ensure that human
-caused mortality is not going to lead to the
decline of the population. For delisting, there
also has to be a population in Mexico. Oh, really?
I want to make sure I brought that in of 200
animals over eight years with the same goals.
OK. And so that's been another key element to
the recovery of the Mexican wolf. Perfect, because
this is exactly what I wanted to talk about next
is, you know, we talked about where we need to
be to get recovery. And as a biologist who works
for the Fish and Wildlife Service and spent her
whole career working on endangered species issues,
you know, what's the goal of the Endangered Species
Act? Is it to get animals on the list or off
the list? Off the list. That is recovery. Exactly.
Well, getting animals off the list through recovery.
Yes. Right. I have to put that in because there
is a bill right now to delist the Mexican wolf
before the House. Yes. But that would not be
based on recovery. Right. That's not based on
science. That's based on politics. And boy, we
could spend a whole episode talking about the
myths that have infiltrated the political parties
of this country regarding Mexican wolves and
gray wolves in the North, too. But yeah, you're
right. So the goal of the service and the ESA
is to get animals off once they are recovered.
So once they meet that threshold, they can be
delisted. And then, as you mentioned, properly
managed by the states. Because we don't want
to turn it back to the states and then have them
allow depletion of the animals again. And the
Fish and Wildlife Service has to come back and
spend millions of dollars to save them again.
We don't want that to happen. And we were really
fortunate that the states and also the tribes
around were very key to us putting together our
recovery plan. And so they're on board with where
the recovery plan is going. Very good. And all
that with the regulations as well. It is neat
that the White Mountain Apache Reservations right
there, because my understanding is they've taken
a real strong interest in wolf recovery up there.
Yes. Yes, they've been really good partners.
That's awesome. And so that gives, you know,
They, of course, have their own law enforcement.
They have tribal police. And then, of course,
Arizona Game and Fish and New Mexico have their
own state wildlife officers. Have they also been
supportive of conducting investigations of illegal
take? Yes, they have been. They partner with
the law enforcement agents from the Fish and
Wildlife Service. And Mexico, as well, has their
own Endangered Species Act. I can't tell you
the name of it right now off the top of my head,
but they also have, through their federal government,
an endangered species act in the listing of the
Mexican wolf. So what do you think? Are we headed
in the right direction for Mexican gray wolf
recovery? Well, we are. I mean, you think about
it. We started in 98 with zero in the wild. Right.
Zero in the wild and now we're up to 319 in the
United States and just in the last two months
They just released two families of wolves down
into Mexico I think one still in a pre -release
pen, but one is in the wild now They released
a pregnant female and she's welping from what
I understand right now. So that's great And they're
released in a new area Durango So we're hopeful
that that's going to be a positive step forward
for Mexico, which has been a little more problematic
at times with poisoning of animals. So yeah,
we were talking about that a little bit before
we started recording today and that there's not
as many regulations on. poisons and poison access
in Mexico is there, is in the US. And a lot of
it's illegal, you know, so they, yeah, so it's,
I don't know what their restrictions are completely,
but I know a lot of that poisoning is not even
legal under their laws. And of course, yeah,
the really insidious thing about poisoning is
you might not even be targeting wolves. You might
be targeting some other species and you kill
whatever comes by. Yeah, we've had another wolf
case that we talked about earlier in the season
that was a wolf, attempted wolf poisoning case,
and it killed a whole lot of other animals in
the process. It's pretty depressing. And like
you mentioned, that Mexican release is a key
component to recovery, right? Because there have
to be wild wolves there too. And Mexico's been
a good partner over the years as well. We do
a lot of meetings with Mexico. Arizona Game and
Fish as well does a lot of work down helping
Mexican counterparts. Very cool. So before we
wrap up, we're almost out of time. As a resident
in the Southwest, you know, you live in Arizona
currently, right? Or do you live in New Mexico?
You're all over the place. You're all over the
place. Okay, but the Southwest, as a resident,
longtime resident of the Southwest, what's your
What's your view on Mexican wolves? What's their
place? Do they have a place? What do you think?
I think they're incredibly important. They're
an apex predator, an iconic apex predator. They're
important for maintaining the ecosystem, keystone
species, making sure that the elk are not degrading
the ecosystems in the southwest. There's also
other arguments that are really relevant. A lot
of people find them spiritual. They'll see their
first wolf in the wild, and it's the most impactful
thing that's happened to them. And it's also
just getting these animals back into the wild
is correcting what humans did in the past by
almost causing the extinction of the Mexican
wolf. down to five animals. It's important, I
think, that we correct those things that we have
done in the past that were wrong. Wolves are
very recoverable. They're over -harvested. I
mean, there's really three ways that, probably
more, but three basic ways that animals become
endangered from poisons, toxins like DDT. in
the environment from over -harvesting and then
from loss and degradation of habitat. And the
first two, you can stop putting those toxic things
into the wild. Like DDT, we stopped that, and
a lot of species recovered. Peregrines and...
Eagles, yeah. Pelicans. And you can stop over
-harvesting to whales and wolves. You can stop...
doing that and they will recover. The things
that are harder, the species that are harder
to recover, those where you have to, they've
lost their habitat and you don't know where else
to get it back or it's degraded to the point
you have to restore it. And we're just not, we're
not smart enough. We're not that good at restoring
habitats. There's so many components that we
just don't really even know what they are. And
so we try hard, but we don't always make it.
Wolves are very recoverable. I think that's a
that's a great statement that people need to
remember is that if we and it kind of fits with
what I've always said is that a role that law
enforcement plays in recovery is that we can
sometimes give the animals the breathing room
they need to make that because we take we can
help take away some of those pressures of the
overharvest. Yes. Gives them just that enough
breathing room to make that next leap to recovery.
Right. And that's, as human beings, that's all
we really need to do, you know? Yeah. So let
me ask you this. What would you say to somebody,
those are great, very valid reasons. What would
you say to somebody who lives in Miami or New
York City or downtown Seattle or downtown LA,
why should they care about Mexican gray wolves?
You know, it's interesting. We get a lot of support
from all over the country for the Mexican wolf
and all over the world. because people, they
feel that they feel that bond with wolves. And
of course, people, you know, out here will say,
Okay, well, go put them in Miami, then you don't
put them in their backyards. I get that. I hear
that a lot, too. But the reality is, is that
people do still care about wolves. And That howl
in the wild is pretty incredible to hear. And
some people just want to know that that howl
in the wild is out there. Exactly. I have always
said that about tigers. I have never seen a tiger
in the wild, and I'm pretty confident I never
will. But it's really important to me to know
that they're there. I don't know why. I just
want to know that there are tigers there. I could
go see. If I had the money, the time, and the
luck. That's exactly right. And one last thing
I'll say too on wolves, and then I'll let you
have the last word, is that I consider, like
you said, people that are out there, they see
a wolf for the first time. They're kind of moved.
For me, it wasn't seeing a wolf for the first
time. I was hearing one. And I was hiking in
the back country in Yellowstone. You're out there.
You're feeling vulnerable anyway. And then you
hear this very deep howl that's very different
than a coyote howl. And it just was a, it's one
of those moments in your life where you remember
every aspect of that moment. And it's just a
reminder that you're part of the natural environment.
And this is triggering something in you that's
very primal that goes back. thousands of years
in your DNA. And I kind of put it up there with
other experiences. Being on foot in Africa and
encountering an elephant, that's a very moving
experience too. Not in a vehicle, but on foot.
That's a very moving experience that'll change
your life in a hurry. But it also gives you an
incredible appreciation for the animal and the
environment that that animal needs and lives
in, right? Anyway. So last word, Sheri, I'll
give you the last word. What haven't I asked
you or what do you wish I would have asked you
in this interview? Well, you know, wolves, they
get a lot of attention from a lot of different
realms, politically, from the public and everything.
You know, a lot of species don't get any attention.
You know, you think about some of our... endangered
isopods and plants and stuff and very sure I
get it that they're they you know all of our
endangered species need more resources to get
to recovery and a lot of them are simply forgotten
almost not by the biologists but by the public.
So wolves get more attention than most others
and sometimes more than you want. It's nice to
have the the backing but you know it's a challenging
program and I just have So much respect for all
the staff. A lot of them have been there a long
time and been through bringing these wolves back
into the wild. It's a great program. It's a challenging
program because there is so much going on all
the time, but it is also very rewarding to especially
see that population growing in the wild. Perfect.
And you know, no doubt the people like you and
the people who worked with you put a whole lot
of blood, sweat, and tears into this program.
And why? To help wolves recover, but really why
is for the American people, which that's amazing.
That's a huge thing that you do for us. And so
thank you, Sheri, for everything you've done
in that program and all the people that worked
with you. Really appreciate it. Thank you. 100%.
Thank you for being on the episode. Ladies and
gentlemen coming up next week We are going to
jump back into a law enforcement case and we're
going to talk about a law enforcement case involving
a Mexican gray wolf So thank you for tuning in.
We'll see you next week Nature's Secret Service
is written and produced by me at newcomer and
is co -produced by the DH TV team here at California
State University Dominguez Hills Follow us on
social media and connect with us online at naturesecretservice
.com