WEBVTT 00:00:00.140 --> 00:00:02.540 If you want to learn more about the topics of 00:00:02.540 --> 00:00:06.219 today's episode, visit the podcast website at 00:00:06.219 --> 00:00:09.300 naturessecretservice .com. Thanks for listening. 00:00:42.000 --> 00:00:45.719 OK, people, listen up. Here we go. This is Nature's 00:00:45.719 --> 00:00:47.500 Secret Service, the podcast that puts you in 00:00:47.500 --> 00:00:49.600 the room with the men and women of wildlife law 00:00:49.600 --> 00:00:52.740 enforcement. I'm Ed Newcomer, your host. And 00:00:52.740 --> 00:00:55.659 we are continuing with season three in our deep 00:00:55.659 --> 00:00:58.420 dive on wolves in the United States and their 00:00:58.420 --> 00:01:01.329 return to the wild. It's time we start talking 00:01:01.329 --> 00:01:04.390 about Mexican gray wolves because a lot of what 00:01:04.390 --> 00:01:07.430 we've talked about so far has been the Wolves 00:01:07.430 --> 00:01:10.010 that were released in Yellowstone and the Yellowstone 00:01:10.010 --> 00:01:13.269 ecosystem up there in 1995 the northern gray 00:01:13.269 --> 00:01:16.849 wolves and now it's time to focus on the Mexican 00:01:16.849 --> 00:01:22.069 wolves Joining us today is a fantastic guest 00:01:22.069 --> 00:01:24.329 Sherry Barrett. I've known Sherry for a long 00:01:24.329 --> 00:01:27.209 time She was a biologist with the US Fish and 00:01:27.209 --> 00:01:31.219 Wildlife Service and has been involved in the 00:01:31.219 --> 00:01:33.700 protection and recovery of endangered and threatened 00:01:33.700 --> 00:01:36.200 species throughout the southwestern United States 00:01:36.200 --> 00:01:41.500 for, geez, three decades. She has worked on multi 00:01:41.500 --> 00:01:44.180 -species conservation plans in southern California, 00:01:44.659 --> 00:01:47.959 desert conservation plans in the southwest, dealing 00:01:47.959 --> 00:01:51.700 with everything from desert tortoises to Mexican 00:01:51.700 --> 00:01:55.739 gray wolves. And in fact, from 2011 until she 00:01:55.739 --> 00:01:59.780 retired in 2018, She was the recovery coordinator 00:01:59.780 --> 00:02:03.239 for the Mexican gray wolf program, which I mean, 00:02:03.459 --> 00:02:05.420 I could have her talk about it, but we want to 00:02:05.420 --> 00:02:07.579 jump into the meat of our conversation today. 00:02:07.579 --> 00:02:09.860 But basically as the director of that program, 00:02:10.340 --> 00:02:14.639 she was responsible for all of it. Field activities, 00:02:14.860 --> 00:02:18.439 the captive breeding program, development of 00:02:18.439 --> 00:02:21.060 the endangered species policies around Mexican 00:02:21.060 --> 00:02:24.300 wolves. And now even in retirement, she's still 00:02:24.300 --> 00:02:27.270 involved volunteering her time to help. with 00:02:27.270 --> 00:02:29.330 the recovery of Mexican wolves. In fact, before 00:02:29.330 --> 00:02:32.090 we came on air, she just told me that just yesterday 00:02:32.090 --> 00:02:35.430 she was out helping to capture a Mexican gray 00:02:35.430 --> 00:02:38.849 wolf. So Sherry, welcome to the podcast. Thank 00:02:38.849 --> 00:02:40.870 you very much for agreeing to be on. I think 00:02:40.870 --> 00:02:43.090 you're such a valuable part of the story we're 00:02:43.090 --> 00:02:46.770 trying to tell in season three. Thank you. Thank 00:02:46.770 --> 00:02:48.509 you, Ed. It's a pleasure to be here. Yeah, and 00:02:48.509 --> 00:02:50.750 great to see you again. I think it's been many 00:02:50.750 --> 00:02:55.360 years since I saw you. We went through some programs 00:02:55.360 --> 00:02:58.159 together in the Fish and Wildlife Service. And 00:02:58.159 --> 00:03:02.039 we stayed in touch for a long time. And it's 00:03:02.039 --> 00:03:03.659 been a while, though, since we actually saw each 00:03:03.659 --> 00:03:06.439 other in person. So great to see you today. Yeah. 00:03:07.000 --> 00:03:10.379 Good to see you too. Can you tell us, so we're 00:03:10.379 --> 00:03:12.680 really launching now into a discussion about 00:03:12.680 --> 00:03:17.780 the Mexican gray wolves. Can you just tell us, 00:03:18.000 --> 00:03:20.740 first of all, a little bit about Mexican gray 00:03:20.740 --> 00:03:23.490 wolves versus what's up? in the northern part 00:03:23.490 --> 00:03:29.210 of the US, the northern gray wolf. So Mexican 00:03:29.210 --> 00:03:32.610 gray wolves are a subspecies of the northern 00:03:32.610 --> 00:03:36.430 gray wolf. And so they're genetically unique. 00:03:36.949 --> 00:03:40.169 They're a smaller animal. They're golden retriever 00:03:40.169 --> 00:03:44.389 size, 50 to 80 pounds, whereas those in the northern 00:03:44.389 --> 00:03:47.349 gray wolf population, they're easily 100 pounds 00:03:47.349 --> 00:03:51.240 or more. And so it's a smaller animal, and they 00:03:51.240 --> 00:03:55.020 don't come in all gray or all blacks colors. 00:03:55.360 --> 00:03:57.620 They're gray, sometimes a little bit of cinnamon 00:03:57.620 --> 00:04:01.680 in there. Interesting. OK. So if you were to 00:04:01.680 --> 00:04:05.539 see one in the wild next to a northern gray wolf, 00:04:05.979 --> 00:04:08.060 would you know instantly, oh, I'm looking at 00:04:08.060 --> 00:04:12.139 a different species or different animal? It would 00:04:12.139 --> 00:04:15.020 depend on if that was a smaller northern. you 00:04:15.020 --> 00:04:20.180 know, or younger northern gray wolf. So yeah, 00:04:20.240 --> 00:04:24.279 and then the range of the Mexican wolf was kind 00:04:24.279 --> 00:04:29.139 of central Mexico, north into southern New Mexico, 00:04:30.600 --> 00:04:33.300 western, southwestern, excuse me, southeastern 00:04:33.300 --> 00:04:36.360 Arizona, and then into western Texas. Okay, yeah, 00:04:36.360 --> 00:04:38.019 that was my next question. What was kind of the 00:04:38.019 --> 00:04:40.259 history of the Mexican gray wolf? What was its 00:04:40.259 --> 00:04:45.569 range in the U .S.? And like, why Why do we need 00:04:45.569 --> 00:04:47.750 a reintroduction program for the Mexican gray 00:04:47.750 --> 00:04:49.509 wolf? So what what's their history? Can you tell 00:04:49.509 --> 00:04:52.750 us a little bit more about that? Yeah, the history 00:04:52.750 --> 00:04:58.550 of the Mexican gray wolf is pretty bleak it back 00:04:58.550 --> 00:05:03.930 in the mid to late 1800s there was extensive 00:05:03.930 --> 00:05:07.370 livestock grazing in southwestern United States 00:05:07.370 --> 00:05:12.370 and Mexico You know going from numbers of livestock 00:05:12.370 --> 00:05:16.240 in the tens of thousands up in just maybe a couple 00:05:16.240 --> 00:05:19.480 of decades to over a million. And so it was extensive. 00:05:19.699 --> 00:05:24.060 It caused a lot of erosion. But it also depleted 00:05:24.060 --> 00:05:27.860 the native animals, the prey base for Mexican 00:05:27.860 --> 00:05:31.860 wolves. And so they did turn to some livestock 00:05:31.860 --> 00:05:36.579 depredation. And that triggered a really hard 00:05:36.579 --> 00:05:42.370 effort to remove predators from the wild. These 00:05:42.370 --> 00:05:46.470 were often not only bounties, but also federal 00:05:46.470 --> 00:05:49.529 employees that were hired or people that were 00:05:49.529 --> 00:05:53.029 contracted to go down. And they targeted bears, 00:05:53.389 --> 00:05:59.250 wolves, cougars, coyotes. And so they, by the 00:05:59.250 --> 00:06:05.089 mid 1900s, Mexican wolves were pretty much eradicated 00:06:05.089 --> 00:06:09.250 from the United States. There were still a few 00:06:09.250 --> 00:06:14.300 in... Mexico. And so things change. Mindsets 00:06:14.300 --> 00:06:17.500 of people in the United States changed over time. 00:06:17.540 --> 00:06:21.019 And in the 60s, there was the Starker -Leopold 00:06:21.019 --> 00:06:24.959 report that really criticized the federal policies 00:06:24.959 --> 00:06:28.079 for getting rid of predators. And other things 00:06:28.079 --> 00:06:32.759 happened in the 1970s. That was under President 00:06:32.759 --> 00:06:37.490 Nixon. We got the environmental protection agency, 00:06:38.089 --> 00:06:41.230 and also signed into law the National Environmental 00:06:41.230 --> 00:06:44.089 Policy Act, the Clean Air Act, and importantly 00:06:44.089 --> 00:06:47.990 for this, the Endangered Species Act. And so 00:06:47.990 --> 00:06:53.250 all of that was a major mindset change from those 00:06:53.250 --> 00:06:58.250 massive predator elimination policies of previously 00:06:58.250 --> 00:07:03.529 moving forward. And so in about 1977, the Fish 00:07:03.529 --> 00:07:07.250 and Wildlife Service hired Roy McBride, who was 00:07:07.250 --> 00:07:13.970 previously a federal predator trapper involved 00:07:13.970 --> 00:07:16.410 in killing off some of these predators. But they 00:07:16.410 --> 00:07:18.870 hired him to go down into Mexico and trap some 00:07:18.870 --> 00:07:21.569 of the last remaining Mexican wolves in the wild. 00:07:22.350 --> 00:07:26.990 And he brought back over three years, 77 to 80s, 00:07:27.050 --> 00:07:30.670 he brought back five animals. And from those 00:07:30.670 --> 00:07:33.410 five, there were three founders, and that's just 00:07:33.410 --> 00:07:35.850 because some of them are related. One was a pregnant 00:07:35.850 --> 00:07:39.370 female also, and so they actually never trapped 00:07:39.370 --> 00:07:43.829 her mate, but he was a founder because the offspring. 00:07:44.170 --> 00:07:47.240 So it's a little complicated there, but... three 00:07:47.240 --> 00:07:50.100 of those animals. And then they found four more 00:07:50.100 --> 00:07:53.660 later on in captive populations that were determined 00:07:53.660 --> 00:07:56.639 by genetics to be pure Mexican wolves. Interesting. 00:07:56.699 --> 00:07:59.620 So those seven animals became the founding population 00:07:59.620 --> 00:08:02.600 for all Mexican wolves now. Wow. So when you 00:08:02.600 --> 00:08:04.600 say founders in that first group, that first 00:08:04.600 --> 00:08:07.279 five that were captured in the wild down in Mexico, 00:08:07.699 --> 00:08:09.819 when you say founders, what does that mean exactly? 00:08:09.920 --> 00:08:12.240 I'm not really sure what that means. Well, it 00:08:12.240 --> 00:08:14.120 means that those are the animals from which all 00:08:14.120 --> 00:08:16.660 the genetics are derived into the current population. 00:08:16.660 --> 00:08:21.019 I see. So they started and were mating those, 00:08:21.259 --> 00:08:25.240 breeding those together to create a captive population. 00:08:25.800 --> 00:08:28.399 So what you did basically was you took seven 00:08:28.399 --> 00:08:31.660 animals and you had to grow a captive population 00:08:31.660 --> 00:08:35.799 first. Right. And so from those then you could 00:08:35.799 --> 00:08:37.899 eventually release into the wild. But first you 00:08:37.899 --> 00:08:41.100 had to have a population in the captive breeding 00:08:41.100 --> 00:08:46.279 program that was sustainable. So right now there's 00:08:46.279 --> 00:08:48.659 still a captive breeding program and there's 00:08:48.659 --> 00:08:54.259 about 350 Mexican wolves in about 60 facilities 00:08:54.259 --> 00:08:57.340 in the United States and Mexico. And these facilities, 00:08:57.679 --> 00:08:59.659 what are they? Are they zoos? Is that what I'm 00:08:59.659 --> 00:09:03.769 assuming? Some are, yes. Most of them are zoos, 00:09:03.850 --> 00:09:08.970 and some are wolf breeding facilities. OK. And 00:09:08.970 --> 00:09:11.210 was that part of something you were responsible 00:09:11.210 --> 00:09:13.850 for kind of coordinating and overseeing as the 00:09:13.850 --> 00:09:17.389 recovery coordinator? It was under my purview. 00:09:17.590 --> 00:09:21.190 I had an excellent staff who had been working 00:09:21.190 --> 00:09:23.909 with these facilities for many years. And she 00:09:23.909 --> 00:09:26.049 was the one that worked directly with them. OK. 00:09:27.210 --> 00:09:31.440 So they coordinate. It's under the auspices of 00:09:31.440 --> 00:09:35.600 the American Aquarium and Zoos Association. And 00:09:35.600 --> 00:09:40.840 so they have a program for individual endangered 00:09:40.840 --> 00:09:45.340 animals. And from that, it's a computer stud 00:09:45.340 --> 00:09:49.100 book. And they know which animals need to be 00:09:49.100 --> 00:09:52.379 bred each year to maintain the genetic diversity 00:09:52.379 --> 00:09:55.480 as much as possible. So with only seven founders, 00:09:55.539 --> 00:09:57.879 you're not going to increase that genetic diversity 00:09:57.879 --> 00:10:01.080 unless you find a new animal, which we know we 00:10:01.080 --> 00:10:04.720 won't now. It's been too many years. But you 00:10:04.720 --> 00:10:06.919 can maintain as much as possible. And that's 00:10:06.919 --> 00:10:09.240 one of the goals of the recovery program, is 00:10:09.240 --> 00:10:13.860 to maintain that genetic diversity to the extent 00:10:13.860 --> 00:10:16.840 you can. You will always lose some each year, 00:10:17.080 --> 00:10:19.299 some percent. Yeah, I think the Fish and Wildlife 00:10:19.299 --> 00:10:22.639 Service has had a similar problem, or not problem, 00:10:22.820 --> 00:10:26.309 but we'll call it a challenge, with other species 00:10:26.309 --> 00:10:28.769 that were almost completely extinct, like the 00:10:28.769 --> 00:10:31.350 black -footed ferret, and I think even the California 00:10:31.350 --> 00:10:34.269 condor, they've had to really juggle the genetics 00:10:34.269 --> 00:10:38.570 to make sure that they don't end up with negative 00:10:38.570 --> 00:10:42.169 consequences from inbreeding, right? Correct. 00:10:42.389 --> 00:10:45.610 Yeah. All of those, yeah. Must be a huge challenge 00:10:45.610 --> 00:10:48.090 to do that, especially, I assume, computerization 00:10:48.090 --> 00:10:51.029 has helped. But can you imagine, like in the 00:10:51.029 --> 00:10:53.409 70s and 80s, trying to sort this out with no 00:10:53.409 --> 00:10:55.190 computers, and you're trying to keep all this 00:10:55.190 --> 00:10:57.330 straight? Right. Must have been crazy. It would 00:10:57.330 --> 00:10:59.490 be more challenging. And the other thing that 00:10:59.490 --> 00:11:02.169 happens each year then is you're transferring 00:11:02.169 --> 00:11:05.110 these animals among these different, 60 different 00:11:05.110 --> 00:11:10.389 facilities. Right. And, you know, it's a lot 00:11:10.389 --> 00:11:12.389 of work. Because some of them are all the way 00:11:12.389 --> 00:11:14.970 in New York, St. Louis, State of Washington, 00:11:15.649 --> 00:11:19.350 down here in Arizona and New Mexico. There are 00:11:19.350 --> 00:11:24.030 several different locations. And so we also are 00:11:24.030 --> 00:11:27.649 benefited by the lighthawk, which is a group 00:11:27.649 --> 00:11:30.149 of volunteer pilots. Oh, cool. Who use their 00:11:30.149 --> 00:11:33.450 own planes. And they help transport these animals 00:11:33.450 --> 00:11:36.289 around, which is really great. And sometimes, 00:11:36.549 --> 00:11:39.870 although it's just a very long drive in a van 00:11:39.870 --> 00:11:42.090 with wolves in the back. Right, right. And I'm 00:11:42.090 --> 00:11:45.350 sure that could blow your budget pretty fast 00:11:45.350 --> 00:11:48.929 if you were trying to move, fly animals around 00:11:48.929 --> 00:11:51.590 just to maintain the genetics. Your recovery 00:11:51.590 --> 00:11:53.629 budget could get blown through pretty quickly, 00:11:53.730 --> 00:11:56.289 I assume, right? Correct. So volunteers like 00:11:56.289 --> 00:11:59.330 that are very helpful. I want to back up just 00:11:59.330 --> 00:12:01.490 for a second because I don't think we can stress 00:12:01.490 --> 00:12:04.429 enough. And of course, in other episodes, we've 00:12:04.429 --> 00:12:09.090 talked about this too in this season. This all 00:12:09.090 --> 00:12:11.610 out assault on predators in the Western United 00:12:11.610 --> 00:12:14.950 States, like you said, starting in the late 1800s. 00:12:15.330 --> 00:12:17.830 And just for background, and correct me if I'm 00:12:17.830 --> 00:12:21.460 wrong on this, but you know, The earliest as 00:12:21.460 --> 00:12:24.480 the United States was starting to move into you 00:12:24.480 --> 00:12:29.159 know beef production The cowboy culture really 00:12:29.159 --> 00:12:33.120 got started because This cattle as you mentioned 00:12:33.120 --> 00:12:35.580 these cattle ranches and these cattle operations 00:12:35.580 --> 00:12:38.600 that were operating in the southwest You know 00:12:38.600 --> 00:12:40.919 throughout, you know, Texas and the southwest 00:12:40.919 --> 00:12:44.850 and Mexico Once a year, twice a year, they would 00:12:44.850 --> 00:12:46.889 have these huge, they'd move their cattle in 00:12:46.889 --> 00:12:51.669 huge drives to cities like Dodge City, the classic 00:12:51.669 --> 00:12:54.850 frontier towns where all these lawmen got their 00:12:54.850 --> 00:12:57.970 names dealing with rowdy cowboys that were coming 00:12:57.970 --> 00:13:01.289 up from the Southwest, right? And so like you 00:13:01.289 --> 00:13:03.789 said, a lot of environmental damage caused by 00:13:03.789 --> 00:13:06.490 just that many hoofed animals moving, very different 00:13:06.490 --> 00:13:10.639 than bison. And along the way, Cowboys were killing 00:13:10.639 --> 00:13:12.639 every predator they could find because they didn't 00:13:12.639 --> 00:13:15.740 want their calves to hit. And this then morphed 00:13:15.740 --> 00:13:18.759 into the actual government policy to eliminate 00:13:18.759 --> 00:13:21.960 predators, cougars, coyotes, foxes, badgers, 00:13:22.620 --> 00:13:24.980 anything that would prey, eagles, anything that 00:13:24.980 --> 00:13:29.379 would prey on a cow would be a target for this 00:13:29.379 --> 00:13:33.919 operation. And that included wolves. Do you know, 00:13:33.980 --> 00:13:38.039 I think the last recorded gray wolf was killed 00:13:38.039 --> 00:13:41.399 in Yellowstone in 1926, I believe. Do you know 00:13:41.399 --> 00:13:43.600 when the last Mexican gray wolf was known to 00:13:43.600 --> 00:13:47.179 be roaming around the wild? Well, it would have 00:13:47.179 --> 00:13:50.059 been with Roy McBride, and so it would have been 00:13:50.059 --> 00:13:53.519 down towards Durango. OK, but Mexico. What about 00:13:53.519 --> 00:13:55.159 in the 80s? What about in the United States? 00:13:55.179 --> 00:14:00.960 Oh, in the United States. It was around mid -1900s, 00:14:00.960 --> 00:14:05.179 so about 1950. OK, yeah. I think Aldo Leopold 00:14:05.179 --> 00:14:07.399 even documented, I can't remember what year, 00:14:07.639 --> 00:14:11.399 he's kind of famously documented himself as killing 00:14:11.399 --> 00:14:14.799 a wolf once. And I believe that was in New Mexico. 00:14:15.519 --> 00:14:18.720 I think it was a northern gray wolf. And he regretted 00:14:18.720 --> 00:14:23.519 that later in his career. And I think that was 00:14:23.519 --> 00:14:26.279 after 1926. I can't remember exactly. But yeah, 00:14:26.320 --> 00:14:29.779 between 1920 and 1940, pretty much the last wolves 00:14:29.779 --> 00:14:36.120 in the United States were gone. They were pretty 00:14:36.120 --> 00:14:40.500 effective with gassing pups, poisoning, trapping, 00:14:40.779 --> 00:14:46.139 hunting, everything. Coyotes are kind of famous 00:14:46.139 --> 00:14:49.539 for responding with larger litters under pressure. 00:14:50.100 --> 00:14:51.779 So the more pressure you put on coyotes, the 00:14:51.779 --> 00:14:54.740 more coyotes they produce. I assume that is that 00:14:54.740 --> 00:14:56.899 not true for wolves or how do they if they're 00:14:56.899 --> 00:15:00.019 under pressure to the no wolves are pretty susceptible 00:15:00.019 --> 00:15:04.759 to especially poison And they only breed once 00:15:04.759 --> 00:15:08.259 a year. I see Coyotes I believe can breed more 00:15:08.259 --> 00:15:11.919 than once a year if necessary as well You know 00:15:11.919 --> 00:15:14.200 you and I'm gonna jump ahead to something I was 00:15:14.200 --> 00:15:16.460 going to talk about later because you you told 00:15:16.460 --> 00:15:19.759 me about this and I didn't know this before but 00:15:19.899 --> 00:15:22.779 gray wolves, meaning the northern gray wolf and 00:15:22.779 --> 00:15:25.539 the Mexican gray wolf, do they, I think a myth 00:15:25.539 --> 00:15:28.220 out there among anti -wolf people and ranchers 00:15:28.220 --> 00:15:30.460 is that they will interbreed with coyotes. And 00:15:30.460 --> 00:15:32.659 you told me that's not true. And they don't. 00:15:32.679 --> 00:15:38.379 They don't. No. And Mexican wolves, every animal 00:15:38.379 --> 00:15:43.320 that's ever captured or encountered, there's 00:15:43.320 --> 00:15:47.220 blood drawn. And so they run genetics on every 00:15:47.220 --> 00:15:50.889 Mexican wolf that's ever in hand. And there's 00:15:50.889 --> 00:15:55.669 never been any incident of coyote genes in those 00:15:55.669 --> 00:15:59.009 wolves. OK. But from that blood DNA test, they 00:15:59.009 --> 00:16:01.230 can also figure out parentage. So that's also 00:16:01.230 --> 00:16:04.129 helpful in figuring out the genetic diversity, 00:16:04.169 --> 00:16:06.549 et cetera, in the wild. Yeah. So modern science 00:16:06.549 --> 00:16:09.230 has really solved that question forever. Yeah. 00:16:09.590 --> 00:16:14.289 OK. Yeah. Interesting. OK. So now, after this 00:16:14.289 --> 00:16:19.779 capture, there's been captive breeding. At some 00:16:19.779 --> 00:16:21.860 point, Fish and Wildlife Service in the states 00:16:21.860 --> 00:16:23.840 get to a point where they think there's enough 00:16:23.840 --> 00:16:27.120 wolves that they can release into the wild. When 00:16:27.120 --> 00:16:29.679 was the first year that the Mexican gray wolf 00:16:29.679 --> 00:16:35.820 was returned to wild places? It was 1998, and 00:16:35.820 --> 00:16:38.720 it was under President Clinton and Secretary 00:16:38.720 --> 00:16:42.759 of the Interior Bruce Babbitt. Secretary Babbitt 00:16:42.759 --> 00:16:47.730 was very, very interested in returning Mexican 00:16:47.730 --> 00:16:50.450 gray wolves and other wolves as well to the wild 00:16:50.450 --> 00:16:57.070 to address the sins of the past. And so they 00:16:57.070 --> 00:17:01.970 released two families of Mexican wolves into 00:17:01.970 --> 00:17:07.970 forest service lands in Arizona. And remarkably, 00:17:09.529 --> 00:17:11.430 those wolves had never been in the wild. They 00:17:11.430 --> 00:17:13.630 came from captivity. They were reared in the, 00:17:13.630 --> 00:17:18.589 you know, in captivity. But their instincts for, 00:17:18.589 --> 00:17:23.029 uh, through the prey drive became almost instant 00:17:23.029 --> 00:17:26.390 and they were killing elk. No kidding. And in 00:17:26.390 --> 00:17:29.569 fact, the down in Mexico, there aren't elk. Well, 00:17:29.569 --> 00:17:32.750 there's some private herds now, but, uh, Mexican 00:17:32.750 --> 00:17:35.630 wolves, especially down in Mexico did not evolve 00:17:35.630 --> 00:17:38.990 with elk. And so they more with, um, white tail 00:17:38.990 --> 00:17:44.779 deer and have Alina. Um, and so that people weren't 00:17:44.779 --> 00:17:49.599 really sure what the smaller Mexican gray wolf 00:17:49.599 --> 00:17:52.720 was going to prey on. But in fact, it is elk. 00:17:52.759 --> 00:17:55.099 That's interesting. 80 % of their diet is elk. 00:17:55.640 --> 00:17:58.819 And a lot of that's during when elk calves. Right. 00:17:59.559 --> 00:18:03.579 They do go after elk calves and also gut piles 00:18:03.579 --> 00:18:06.299 during the hunting season in the fall. Right. 00:18:06.339 --> 00:18:09.099 Right. So that's part of their elk diet. But 00:18:09.099 --> 00:18:12.190 they also can... a pack of wolves can take down 00:18:12.190 --> 00:18:16.089 an adult. Interesting. So they're primarily evolved 00:18:16.089 --> 00:18:19.089 around deer, but presumably some elk as well. 00:18:19.769 --> 00:18:23.690 But even the ones raised in captivity quickly 00:18:23.690 --> 00:18:27.609 adapted to killing large ungulates, huh? Yes. 00:18:28.250 --> 00:18:30.069 That's interesting. And of course, that's going 00:18:30.069 --> 00:18:35.089 to raise red flags with every hunter who's going 00:18:35.089 --> 00:18:37.529 to try to claim that these wolves destroy elk 00:18:37.529 --> 00:18:41.119 populations. We're going to jump around a little 00:18:41.119 --> 00:18:45.279 bit here. But you were the coordinator from 2011 00:18:45.279 --> 00:18:48.599 to 2018. So that's seven years, give or take. 00:18:49.279 --> 00:18:51.940 And obviously, you've been in the service much 00:18:51.940 --> 00:18:56.859 longer. What's your experience with the Mexican 00:18:56.859 --> 00:19:00.240 gray wolves' impact on elk populations in Arizona 00:19:00.240 --> 00:19:04.339 and New Mexico? The elk populations are actually 00:19:04.339 --> 00:19:07.619 monitored and managed by the state game departments, 00:19:07.859 --> 00:19:11.200 both in New Mexico and Arizona. And they monitor 00:19:11.200 --> 00:19:14.420 individual populations. And they're showing that 00:19:14.420 --> 00:19:18.299 the elk populations are stable, are increasing 00:19:18.299 --> 00:19:21.900 in both states. So that's a good thing. But hunters 00:19:21.900 --> 00:19:25.200 will say that elk are not in the places that 00:19:25.200 --> 00:19:27.640 they used to find them. And that's probably true. 00:19:27.960 --> 00:19:31.640 Because elk, if left alone, they will just stay 00:19:31.640 --> 00:19:37.299 in meadows and riparian ecosystems where they 00:19:37.299 --> 00:19:40.480 find a lot of good browse. And that can be very 00:19:40.480 --> 00:19:44.119 detrimental to those ecosystems. So elk move 00:19:44.119 --> 00:19:46.480 them around, make them go to different places. 00:19:46.559 --> 00:19:50.079 And I'm sure that that does seem like there's 00:19:50.079 --> 00:19:53.259 fewer elk than where hunters used to find them. 00:19:53.420 --> 00:19:56.200 Yep, absolutely. And this is something that I 00:19:56.170 --> 00:19:59.730 has always kind of befuddled me about the hunters 00:19:59.730 --> 00:20:04.329 who claim that the wolves are depleting the elk 00:20:04.329 --> 00:20:07.289 and deer populations. Because not just in New 00:20:07.289 --> 00:20:10.369 Mexico and Arizona, but Wyoming, Idaho, Montana, 00:20:14.190 --> 00:20:16.910 the counts every year and the number of deer 00:20:16.910 --> 00:20:20.549 taken by hunters, et cetera, do not support that 00:20:20.549 --> 00:20:24.779 conclusion. Anybody who hunts or enjoys the outdoors, 00:20:25.160 --> 00:20:27.660 it just doesn't take that much brain power to 00:20:27.660 --> 00:20:32.140 understand that, yeah, 30 years ago, 25 years 00:20:32.140 --> 00:20:34.799 ago, even before wolves were growing in numbers, 00:20:34.880 --> 00:20:37.940 if you went out, you'd see large herds of elk 00:20:37.940 --> 00:20:40.539 hanging out in a meadow. It's pretty unconcerned 00:20:40.539 --> 00:20:43.180 with everything. Pretty easy to shoot them. Pretty 00:20:43.180 --> 00:20:45.299 easy to stalk them and hunt them and shoot them. 00:20:45.880 --> 00:20:48.259 Now, wolves are causing them to disperse. They 00:20:48.259 --> 00:20:50.920 have to stay on the move. And so, yeah, of course. 00:20:51.879 --> 00:20:56.599 Me with my binoculars, you with your rifle, somebody 00:20:56.599 --> 00:20:58.900 else with their bow and arrow, they're not seeing 00:20:58.900 --> 00:21:01.480 as much elk as they used to because the elk are 00:21:01.480 --> 00:21:06.480 moving. So this is what gets me is the fact that 00:21:06.480 --> 00:21:08.099 you don't see as many elk doesn't necessarily 00:21:08.099 --> 00:21:11.099 mean they aren't there. It's just something's 00:21:11.099 --> 00:21:15.779 changed and it's movement. So to me, it's like 00:21:15.779 --> 00:21:18.960 this rumor has gone around that pretty much started 00:21:18.960 --> 00:21:21.900 with probably two guys at a bar drinking a beer 00:21:21.900 --> 00:21:24.059 talking about hunting and how they don't see 00:21:24.059 --> 00:21:26.579 as many elk as they used to 20 years ago. And 00:21:26.579 --> 00:21:29.079 somehow that morphed into that must be because 00:21:29.079 --> 00:21:31.900 the wolves are killing them all, which doesn't 00:21:31.900 --> 00:21:35.359 follow, right? Anyway, I think it's interesting 00:21:35.359 --> 00:21:39.259 because it's part of the other side of the biological 00:21:39.259 --> 00:21:42.880 discussion because there is another very valid 00:21:43.150 --> 00:21:46.309 Argument that's probably true that the elk are 00:21:46.309 --> 00:21:48.349 actually benefited by having these predators 00:21:48.349 --> 00:21:51.109 in their environment in terms of healthier herds, 00:21:51.109 --> 00:21:55.690 right? Healthier stronger herds Yeah, and I think 00:21:55.690 --> 00:21:58.430 it's interesting because How many wolves were 00:21:58.430 --> 00:22:01.750 released in? The Mexican gray wolves in 1998. 00:22:01.750 --> 00:22:06.069 It was how many well, there's two families Yeah, 00:22:06.609 --> 00:22:10.329 so small and just to clarify that a family a 00:22:10.329 --> 00:22:14.190 pack is two breeding adults their offspring usually 00:22:14.190 --> 00:22:18.089 from a year before or so, and then pups of the 00:22:18.089 --> 00:22:22.109 year. So, not large. That first year, how many 00:22:22.109 --> 00:22:23.950 you think we would have been talking about released? 00:22:24.069 --> 00:22:26.970 Less than 10 for sure, right? Yeah, I think there 00:22:26.970 --> 00:22:30.650 was maybe, I think it was five to seven per pack. 00:22:31.130 --> 00:22:33.890 And there was two packs released. So maybe 10 00:22:33.890 --> 00:22:37.410 to 14. About 14 animals, I think. And now that 00:22:37.410 --> 00:22:41.250 was 1998. Now how many Mexican wolves are estimated 00:22:41.250 --> 00:22:44.369 to be running loose in in New Mexico and Arizona. 00:22:45.970 --> 00:22:47.890 Well, so the interesting thing with wolves is 00:22:47.890 --> 00:22:50.170 it's not an estimate, it's actual count. And 00:22:50.170 --> 00:22:54.170 they do a count once a year in January, February. 00:22:54.589 --> 00:22:57.529 And that's for the previous year. So January, 00:22:57.529 --> 00:23:02.170 February of 26 tells you what wolves were alive 00:23:02.170 --> 00:23:07.230 through December 31st of 2025. I see. OK. And 00:23:07.230 --> 00:23:12.170 so they do it based on uh, camera traps and, 00:23:12.170 --> 00:23:15.809 uh, sightings and then also, uh, generally from 00:23:15.809 --> 00:23:18.990 helicopter and fixed wing to, cause there, the 00:23:18.990 --> 00:23:22.130 goal is to have at least one caller, radio caller, 00:23:22.150 --> 00:23:25.970 uh, per pack. And then, you know, you can that 00:23:25.970 --> 00:23:28.269 pack and then count the individuals, especially 00:23:28.269 --> 00:23:31.430 from the air, um, to find out how many are out 00:23:31.430 --> 00:23:33.650 there. So what is the, it's harder as the, as 00:23:33.650 --> 00:23:37.670 the population gets larger. What was the number 00:23:37.670 --> 00:23:43.720 in most recent count? 319 319 so gone from 14 00:23:43.720 --> 00:23:47.759 animals to 319 wolves and still the elk populations 00:23:47.759 --> 00:23:51.440 are stable and or growing Correct. Do you know 00:23:51.440 --> 00:23:53.960 if that is also true of deer populations in those 00:23:53.960 --> 00:23:57.859 two states? I Don't know. I don't know the statistics 00:23:57.859 --> 00:24:01.140 on the deer. Okay What's the primary prey species 00:24:01.140 --> 00:24:04.400 of the Mexican gray wolves currently in New Mexico 00:24:04.400 --> 00:24:07.019 and Arizona? Is it primarily deer or is it primarily 00:24:07.019 --> 00:24:11.079 elk or do you know elk? 80 % of their diet is 00:24:11.079 --> 00:24:14.380 interesting. Okay. So can you explain, I think 00:24:14.380 --> 00:24:17.000 a lot of people like myself before I personally 00:24:17.000 --> 00:24:20.000 visited it years ago, actually, do you know when 00:24:20.000 --> 00:24:22.500 I visited Northern Arizona for the first time, 00:24:22.539 --> 00:24:24.259 it was when you and I were going through the 00:24:24.259 --> 00:24:27.960 advanced leadership development program. I was 00:24:27.960 --> 00:24:30.500 did part of my detail at the one of the field 00:24:30.500 --> 00:24:32.759 offices there in Phoenix and on a long weekend, 00:24:32.759 --> 00:24:38.220 I went up to Northern Arizona. Yeah. I was surprised 00:24:38.220 --> 00:24:40.660 at the habitat up there. Can you just describe 00:24:40.660 --> 00:24:42.779 what the habitat's like, where these wolves are? 00:24:43.079 --> 00:24:45.779 I think a lot of times people assume it's very 00:24:45.779 --> 00:24:49.740 deserty and cactus everywhere. But that's not 00:24:49.740 --> 00:24:51.420 necessarily true, is it, for that part of the 00:24:51.420 --> 00:24:54.480 world? No. And in fact, the wolves really aren't 00:24:54.480 --> 00:24:58.599 in the deserts. They are in the forest. Alpine, 00:24:58.640 --> 00:25:04.400 Arizona is where the field office is, the group 00:25:04.400 --> 00:25:08.269 that manages the animals in the wild. But they're 00:25:08.269 --> 00:25:10.910 in the forested areas. Yeah. And it can be very 00:25:10.910 --> 00:25:13.809 heavily forested up in those areas. I was surprised. 00:25:14.029 --> 00:25:16.230 Correct. I was also surprised at how big the 00:25:16.230 --> 00:25:20.329 elk are up there. I saw a few bull elk while 00:25:20.329 --> 00:25:22.490 I was there. And I, having grown up in Colorado, 00:25:22.569 --> 00:25:24.710 I'm used to seeing big bull elk. But I was shocked 00:25:24.710 --> 00:25:27.309 how big the elk are there in Alpine, Arizona. 00:25:27.309 --> 00:25:29.450 Yeah. And those have also recovered because they 00:25:29.450 --> 00:25:32.309 were, the Miriam's elk were eliminated in Arizona 00:25:32.309 --> 00:25:37.900 and then reestablished. some elk from north. 00:25:38.319 --> 00:25:40.420 So they've also done well. They're doing very 00:25:40.420 --> 00:25:41.960 well right now. Yeah. And then, you know, that 00:25:41.960 --> 00:25:44.740 reminds me too of you mentioned that another 00:25:44.740 --> 00:25:47.319 contributor to the loss of the Mexican gray wolf 00:25:47.319 --> 00:25:50.819 in the late 1800s, early 1900s was depletion 00:25:50.819 --> 00:25:55.019 of the prey species, deer and elk. And, you know, 00:25:55.299 --> 00:25:58.200 in a previous episode on this podcast, we talked 00:25:58.200 --> 00:26:00.539 with Mark Madison at the U .S. Fish and Wildlife 00:26:00.539 --> 00:26:04.059 Service. He's the historian. He talked a lot 00:26:04.059 --> 00:26:06.660 about the impact of market hunting in the late 00:26:06.660 --> 00:26:11.220 1800s and early 1900s. And for anybody listening 00:26:11.220 --> 00:26:13.440 or watching this podcast, you really have to 00:26:13.440 --> 00:26:16.839 put yourself in the place in America at that 00:26:16.839 --> 00:26:20.839 time. And deer and elk, ducks, wild animals were 00:26:20.839 --> 00:26:25.140 being slaughtered in unsustainable numbers just 00:26:25.140 --> 00:26:28.140 to supply the restaurant market on the East Coast 00:26:28.140 --> 00:26:31.420 and Chicago area. And elk and deer were part 00:26:31.420 --> 00:26:35.400 of that. It was as we were transitioning to a 00:26:35.400 --> 00:26:41.099 industrial beef -based meat supply system, a 00:26:41.099 --> 00:26:43.380 lot of the meat that was showing up in restaurants 00:26:43.380 --> 00:26:46.599 around the country was wild game. And it was 00:26:46.599 --> 00:26:49.519 having a dramatic impact not just on the species, 00:26:49.700 --> 00:26:51.720 but other species. Like you start to take the 00:26:51.720 --> 00:26:53.940 elk and the deer out, it affects the wolves that 00:26:53.940 --> 00:26:56.720 are preying on them. And of course, they're going 00:26:56.720 --> 00:26:59.140 to turn to whatever's available. And what's walking 00:26:59.140 --> 00:27:03.450 around at the time were Cattle. Lots of them. 00:27:03.829 --> 00:27:06.170 Which now brings me to the next question. In 00:27:06.170 --> 00:27:08.190 your experience with the wolf recovery program, 00:27:08.410 --> 00:27:11.170 we talk now a little bit about their impact on 00:27:11.170 --> 00:27:14.569 deer and elk. In your experience, what was their 00:27:14.569 --> 00:27:18.009 impact on domestic cattle and sheep in the Arizona, 00:27:18.009 --> 00:27:21.650 New Mexico area? Yeah, so they do definitely 00:27:21.650 --> 00:27:26.980 prey on and depredate cattle and livestock. There 00:27:26.980 --> 00:27:30.440 are fewer sheep operations now than there used 00:27:30.440 --> 00:27:36.359 to be in Arizona and New Mexico, mostly cattle. 00:27:36.799 --> 00:27:42.259 And so that is a major management focus of the 00:27:42.259 --> 00:27:46.000 interagency field team, which is comprised of 00:27:46.000 --> 00:27:50.299 both state game agencies, White Mountain Apache 00:27:50.299 --> 00:27:52.740 Tribe, Forest Service, Wildlife Services, and 00:27:52.740 --> 00:27:56.359 the Fish and Wildlife Service. And jointly, those 00:27:56.359 --> 00:28:00.900 agencies all work to minimize those depredations 00:28:00.900 --> 00:28:04.680 on livestock. And a lot of, some of the most 00:28:04.680 --> 00:28:08.299 effective is human presence. And so they hire 00:28:08.299 --> 00:28:11.140 range riders to have that presence. But there's 00:28:11.140 --> 00:28:17.140 also, wolves are really afraid of flapping flags. 00:28:17.440 --> 00:28:22.859 So in small areas, you can use flattery. But 00:28:22.859 --> 00:28:24.039 of course, you're not going to be able to use 00:28:24.039 --> 00:28:29.140 that on very large areas of livestock operations, 00:28:29.380 --> 00:28:35.920 right, but there's loud noises just different 00:28:35.920 --> 00:28:41.420 techniques that they deploy to help the ranchers 00:28:41.420 --> 00:28:44.140 and then there's also of course depredation compensation 00:28:44.140 --> 00:28:48.680 and so There's a the Wildlife Services often 00:28:48.680 --> 00:28:50.799 confused with Fish and Wildlife Service, but 00:28:50.799 --> 00:28:52.920 Wildlife Services is Department of Agriculture 00:28:52.920 --> 00:28:55.960 and they'll go out and determine whether or not 00:28:55.960 --> 00:29:01.579 a cow has been or and kind of cattle have been 00:29:01.579 --> 00:29:04.799 Depredated by a wolf or by something else. I 00:29:04.799 --> 00:29:08.160 see and Because wolves also will scavenge and 00:29:08.160 --> 00:29:10.119 so it could have died from something else and 00:29:10.119 --> 00:29:14.039 the wolf is nearby or has the print nearby Because 00:29:14.039 --> 00:29:18.529 they do But they can determine that if the bite 00:29:18.529 --> 00:29:20.990 has hemorrhaging underneath it, that means the 00:29:20.990 --> 00:29:23.950 animal was alive when that bite occurred. Right, 00:29:23.950 --> 00:29:26.630 right, right. But anyways, based on that, then 00:29:26.630 --> 00:29:29.950 these livestock operators can be compensated 00:29:29.950 --> 00:29:33.390 for the cost of that animal. I see. OK. And there's 00:29:33.390 --> 00:29:35.829 programs now in both Arizona and New Mexico that 00:29:35.829 --> 00:29:40.349 are set up for that. And that's another good 00:29:40.349 --> 00:29:43.869 point to remember is that A lot of these cattle 00:29:43.869 --> 00:29:47.750 are run on US government leases on US Forest 00:29:47.750 --> 00:29:51.269 Service property rate. So I remember this growing 00:29:51.269 --> 00:29:54.329 up in Colorado. You go hiking in the forest, 00:29:54.549 --> 00:29:56.509 any of the national forests in Colorado, and 00:29:56.509 --> 00:29:58.829 it's pretty likely you're going to run into some 00:29:58.829 --> 00:30:02.630 sheep or some cows. And it's because the US Forest 00:30:02.630 --> 00:30:07.190 Service leases their property to ranchers. And 00:30:07.190 --> 00:30:09.069 basically, the ranchers in the spring, they just 00:30:09.069 --> 00:30:11.900 let their cattle go. And they roam around all 00:30:11.900 --> 00:30:14.500 summer getting fat on federally owned grass. 00:30:16.000 --> 00:30:18.759 But historically, they just let them go because 00:30:18.759 --> 00:30:21.339 there weren't predators out there. So they didn't 00:30:21.339 --> 00:30:23.279 need range riders. And they didn't need all these 00:30:23.279 --> 00:30:26.619 things in the past. But they're getting the benefit 00:30:26.619 --> 00:30:30.200 of really cheap leases on federal land and running 00:30:30.200 --> 00:30:33.319 their cattle in pretty wild areas. So yeah, they're 00:30:33.319 --> 00:30:35.819 running into cougars and wolves and things like 00:30:35.819 --> 00:30:42.490 that, bears, as they would. How, as the coordinator, 00:30:43.410 --> 00:30:46.049 certainly you had to kind of work with stakeholders 00:30:46.049 --> 00:30:48.630 and local landowners and ranchers, right? Yeah. 00:30:49.269 --> 00:30:51.410 How did you balance? We spent a lot. I bet you 00:30:51.410 --> 00:30:55.029 did. What kind of things did you do to kind of 00:30:55.029 --> 00:30:58.450 build relationships with those people and stay 00:30:58.450 --> 00:31:01.750 informed about what their concerns were and inform 00:31:01.750 --> 00:31:05.230 them about what the goals were and what the realities 00:31:05.230 --> 00:31:08.420 were for wolf reintroduction? How did you? What 00:31:08.420 --> 00:31:14.279 was that like? Yeah, with a lot of meetings in 00:31:14.279 --> 00:31:20.859 ranchers' homes and stuff. They're good people. 00:31:22.059 --> 00:31:24.140 It's a small business for the most part. There 00:31:24.140 --> 00:31:27.779 are corporate ranchers out there, but they're 00:31:27.779 --> 00:31:33.180 good people for the most part. An extra predator 00:31:33.180 --> 00:31:36.539 on the land is going to affect their bottom line. 00:31:36.880 --> 00:31:39.900 And so that's why we worked hard to find some 00:31:39.900 --> 00:31:42.579 programs that would help them. And we did put 00:31:42.579 --> 00:31:46.099 together a council when I first came on that 00:31:46.099 --> 00:31:49.380 brought together some environmental groups, ranchers, 00:31:49.759 --> 00:31:52.819 some of the White Mountain Apache tribe, and 00:31:52.819 --> 00:31:54.759 tried to come up with some of these programs. 00:31:54.859 --> 00:31:58.019 What would really be beneficial to them? Not 00:31:58.019 --> 00:32:00.180 us telling them what it would be, but them telling 00:32:00.180 --> 00:32:03.059 us what would help them. And that's where we 00:32:03.059 --> 00:32:06.779 came to. Depredation compensation, of course, 00:32:06.839 --> 00:32:10.619 but then also Payments for presents so there 00:32:10.619 --> 00:32:12.940 there is a program in New Mexico now I'm not 00:32:12.940 --> 00:32:15.960 sure there is one in Arizona right now, but recognizing 00:32:15.960 --> 00:32:21.319 that if livestock are run more by wolves Then 00:32:21.319 --> 00:32:24.579 they're going to lose weight and it's also true 00:32:24.579 --> 00:32:27.339 that we don't find or they don't find all of 00:32:27.339 --> 00:32:30.200 the Carcasses so they don't find all the the 00:32:30.200 --> 00:32:32.660 animals that have been depredated. So there's 00:32:32.660 --> 00:32:35.549 trying to The payments for presence is trying 00:32:35.549 --> 00:32:40.349 to offset some of those additional issues that 00:32:40.349 --> 00:32:42.730 they experience with another predator on the 00:32:42.730 --> 00:32:45.890 land. And then there's also programs for them 00:32:45.890 --> 00:32:50.349 to help with funding for like range riders or 00:32:50.349 --> 00:32:55.630 other programs to try and deter the depredations. 00:32:56.309 --> 00:32:58.589 What do you think among the landowners and ranchers 00:32:58.589 --> 00:33:02.190 and hunters, what's the number one misperception 00:33:03.310 --> 00:33:06.390 You know, yeah misperception among their ideas 00:33:06.390 --> 00:33:08.970 about wolves and their interaction with cattle 00:33:08.970 --> 00:33:12.089 or the environment Well a lot of we hear a lot 00:33:12.089 --> 00:33:16.569 that wolves kill for fun, right? They don't wolves 00:33:16.569 --> 00:33:22.130 are killing to eat Feed their their offspring. 00:33:22.569 --> 00:33:25.250 It's it's interesting, you know, there's probably 00:33:25.250 --> 00:33:27.329 lots of things you run into but if you think 00:33:27.329 --> 00:33:29.309 trying to think of something else or another 00:33:29.309 --> 00:33:33.619 one well I was kind of preparing for the season. 00:33:33.740 --> 00:33:35.819 I just kind of snooped around on public records 00:33:35.819 --> 00:33:38.339 that are available online from the US Department 00:33:38.339 --> 00:33:41.099 of Agriculture. And they keep pretty specific 00:33:41.099 --> 00:33:45.759 data about the causes of death of domestic cattle 00:33:45.759 --> 00:33:49.859 in this country, sheep and cattle. And for both 00:33:49.859 --> 00:33:55.279 sheep and cattle, the number one cause of death 00:33:55.279 --> 00:34:00.480 is respiratory disease. And literally, it's like 00:34:00.480 --> 00:34:04.980 over 90 % is respiratory disease. And that's 00:34:04.980 --> 00:34:08.019 cattle that are roaming around loose all summer. 00:34:08.239 --> 00:34:09.980 They're not monitored. They're not medicated 00:34:09.980 --> 00:34:13.000 for anything. They're just living pretty much 00:34:13.000 --> 00:34:16.699 like a wild domestic animal, a feral cow out 00:34:16.699 --> 00:34:19.000 there in the wild. And yeah, they come down with 00:34:19.000 --> 00:34:22.860 diseases. They have injuries. That's the primary. 00:34:23.199 --> 00:34:25.219 There's local weed out there. There's poisonous 00:34:25.219 --> 00:34:29.280 plants. Yeah. Bears actually take a lot of calves, 00:34:30.320 --> 00:34:34.300 and feral dogs do, too. Yeah, the real interesting 00:34:34.300 --> 00:34:37.139 numbers, the USDA numbers up in Wyoming and Idaho 00:34:37.139 --> 00:34:40.320 and Montana specifically address bear depredation. 00:34:40.340 --> 00:34:42.360 And they don't divide it into black bear or grizzly 00:34:42.360 --> 00:34:45.599 bear. They just say bears. And it's there, but 00:34:45.599 --> 00:34:48.239 it's usually around 2%, 3 % of the deaths are 00:34:48.239 --> 00:34:52.349 caused by bears. Then you look at the other causes, 00:34:52.650 --> 00:34:56.590 and it's like 90 % is respiratory disease. And 00:34:56.590 --> 00:34:59.170 then there's others in there that still outstrip 00:34:59.170 --> 00:35:02.949 what bears and predators cause. Even coyotes 00:35:02.949 --> 00:35:06.210 don't cause that much damage to calves. But it's 00:35:06.210 --> 00:35:08.409 kind of interesting. If anybody is interested 00:35:08.409 --> 00:35:11.369 in that kind of thing, because that, to me, is 00:35:11.369 --> 00:35:13.690 a number one misperception that I hear a lot 00:35:13.690 --> 00:35:16.789 from people who are anti -wolf. And all I have 00:35:16.789 --> 00:35:20.480 to say is, Just spend 20 minutes, go to the USDA 00:35:20.480 --> 00:35:24.440 website, and start snooping around in old historical 00:35:24.440 --> 00:35:27.659 data. It goes back to the 90s before wolves were 00:35:27.659 --> 00:35:30.360 even reintroduced. It's not hard to look at what's 00:35:30.360 --> 00:35:35.840 causing cattle death on public land. Anyway, 00:35:36.219 --> 00:35:39.480 interesting. OK, so the killing for fun. Yeah, 00:35:39.480 --> 00:35:41.519 I've heard that one too, but that's not true, 00:35:41.900 --> 00:35:48.960 huh? No. OK. Animals, in general, don't expend 00:35:48.960 --> 00:35:53.139 energy that they don't need to expend. Yes. Because 00:35:53.139 --> 00:35:56.000 it's survival. The reverse of that. You're working 00:35:56.000 --> 00:35:57.840 with stakeholders. You're having these meetings. 00:35:58.679 --> 00:36:01.219 Is there anything like, I assume there are some 00:36:01.219 --> 00:36:03.539 ranchers out there who are not anti -wolf. Did 00:36:03.539 --> 00:36:05.579 you ever run into people who kind of got sold 00:36:05.579 --> 00:36:09.780 on the idea or supportive of the program? Yeah, 00:36:09.980 --> 00:36:14.539 definitely. And they are. They're very helpful 00:36:14.539 --> 00:36:17.159 because they're willing to try a lot of these 00:36:17.159 --> 00:36:21.280 new techniques that may come around and deploy 00:36:21.280 --> 00:36:26.659 them on their landscape and work closely with 00:36:26.659 --> 00:36:30.380 the field team. That's really key is to have 00:36:30.380 --> 00:36:33.079 the ranchers call the field team when there's 00:36:33.079 --> 00:36:36.059 a problem and the field team will help them try 00:36:36.059 --> 00:36:39.179 and figure it out. Interesting. And I assume 00:36:39.179 --> 00:36:41.739 these are like just regular ranchers, right? 00:36:41.860 --> 00:36:45.260 Not mega rich people who own big, big ranches 00:36:45.260 --> 00:36:47.039 and they can afford to lose cattle. These are 00:36:47.039 --> 00:36:49.280 regular people. Some of them you've won over, 00:36:49.460 --> 00:36:51.340 yeah? Like I said, both. Yeah, OK. There are 00:36:51.340 --> 00:36:53.760 ranchers that fly helicopters back and forth 00:36:53.760 --> 00:36:56.679 to their land and stuff. So there are ranchers 00:36:56.679 --> 00:37:01.559 that have, you know, it's a secondary to their 00:37:01.559 --> 00:37:05.639 real job someplace else. But those aren't necessarily 00:37:05.639 --> 00:37:07.980 the only ranchers you've won over in your time? 00:37:10.349 --> 00:37:13.289 No, it becomes a personal thing. The more time 00:37:13.289 --> 00:37:16.469 you spend with people, the more you get to know 00:37:16.469 --> 00:37:21.510 each other and trust each other and be able to 00:37:21.510 --> 00:37:25.110 have conversations about what's necessary and 00:37:25.110 --> 00:37:27.050 understand where they're coming from. Exactly. 00:37:27.449 --> 00:37:29.750 And I think that's also true for, believe it 00:37:29.750 --> 00:37:32.230 or not, wolves. In my conversation with Rick 00:37:32.230 --> 00:37:34.869 McIntyre, I mean, It's really clear that, and 00:37:34.869 --> 00:37:36.610 from my personal experience, too, the more time 00:37:36.610 --> 00:37:39.929 you spend with wolves in the wild, watching them, 00:37:40.849 --> 00:37:42.869 the more your attitude changes about them in 00:37:42.869 --> 00:37:46.769 terms of how they behave and what your own personal 00:37:46.769 --> 00:37:50.030 fears and biases might be against wolves. Definitely 00:37:50.030 --> 00:37:51.610 changes how you look at them. Learning about 00:37:51.610 --> 00:37:55.670 wolves, I think. Ranchers, they're pretty much, 00:37:55.690 --> 00:38:00.139 they love the landscape being outdoors. there, 00:38:00.519 --> 00:38:02.300 many of them are very interested in learning 00:38:02.300 --> 00:38:06.019 about wolves. Yeah. And you know, just the whole 00:38:06.019 --> 00:38:09.980 nature of wolves with their family ties and structure 00:38:09.980 --> 00:38:13.260 that's not that different than humans is very 00:38:13.260 --> 00:38:16.019 compelling to people once they learn about it. 00:38:16.079 --> 00:38:19.159 Hey, there's a reason that domestic dogs descend 00:38:19.159 --> 00:38:22.460 from wolves, right? They are very, if you really 00:38:22.460 --> 00:38:25.360 start to look at it, wild wolves are very closely 00:38:25.360 --> 00:38:28.619 intertwined with human beings in terms of behavior 00:38:28.619 --> 00:38:32.480 and the way they work the landscape, right? Yeah, 00:38:32.480 --> 00:38:38.340 it's kind of cool. OK, so the program's been 00:38:38.340 --> 00:38:42.360 pretty successful. What's the number you have 00:38:42.360 --> 00:38:45.219 to get to for Mexican wolves to be considered 00:38:45.219 --> 00:38:51.860 recovered? The number is an average of 320 in 00:38:51.860 --> 00:38:56.099 the United States over eight years. So that 319 00:38:56.099 --> 00:39:00.139 that the program just hit for 2025, can start 00:39:00.139 --> 00:39:04.059 factoring into that average for a delisting. 00:39:04.300 --> 00:39:09.119 But it's also making sure that the genetic representation 00:39:09.119 --> 00:39:12.119 from the captive population has been put into 00:39:12.119 --> 00:39:15.480 the wild population. Because you can control 00:39:15.480 --> 00:39:18.519 who breeds in the captive population, the captive 00:39:18.519 --> 00:39:22.280 population has a higher genetic diversity than 00:39:22.280 --> 00:39:26.360 the wild population, which breeds with you know, 00:39:26.500 --> 00:39:30.760 as they want. Whoever they want to, right? Just 00:39:30.760 --> 00:39:35.800 not coyotes. Yeah, just not coyotes. So the goal 00:39:35.800 --> 00:39:38.579 has been to try and get that genetic representation 00:39:38.579 --> 00:39:41.840 from the captive population into the wild. And 00:39:41.840 --> 00:39:45.960 they've been doing that with fostering of pups 00:39:45.960 --> 00:39:49.440 more recently. I mean, to establish the whole 00:39:49.440 --> 00:39:51.940 population, it had to be packs. It had to be 00:39:51.940 --> 00:39:53.940 families of wolves that were put out in the wild. 00:39:55.039 --> 00:39:57.820 to get that population started and that was successful. 00:39:58.860 --> 00:40:03.380 And now they're more focused on putting pups 00:40:03.380 --> 00:40:07.960 which are less than 14 days old from these breeding 00:40:07.960 --> 00:40:11.480 facilities and the ones that are of important 00:40:11.480 --> 00:40:14.840 genetic, their parents were bred specifically 00:40:14.840 --> 00:40:18.360 to maintain that genetic diversity. Those pups 00:40:18.360 --> 00:40:24.530 are then taken into the wild and the smallest 00:40:24.530 --> 00:40:28.010 usually of the Mexican wolf staff, they go into 00:40:28.010 --> 00:40:31.429 the dens and the wolves are afraid of people. 00:40:31.690 --> 00:40:36.150 So the parents, they run away. The small person 00:40:36.150 --> 00:40:39.010 goes into the den and pulls out the puppies that 00:40:39.010 --> 00:40:43.050 are in there. And they have to be within a few 00:40:43.050 --> 00:40:47.670 days of those 14 day or less. pups that are coming 00:40:47.670 --> 00:40:49.369 from captivity. So they're all about the same 00:40:49.369 --> 00:40:52.489 size, because they grow pretty quickly. So a 00:40:52.489 --> 00:40:55.030 few days can mean a pretty big difference in 00:40:55.030 --> 00:41:00.690 size. So then they make sure that they all smell 00:41:00.690 --> 00:41:03.510 the same. So you make them all kind of pee and 00:41:03.510 --> 00:41:07.130 stuff from the den on everybody so they all smell 00:41:07.130 --> 00:41:09.150 the same. That's incredible. And they never put 00:41:09.150 --> 00:41:11.469 more than eight back in. They might take some 00:41:11.469 --> 00:41:13.650 of those pups from the wild and take them back 00:41:13.650 --> 00:41:18.989 to captivity. And they know when the female whelps 00:41:18.989 --> 00:41:22.670 because of her radio collar, it stops moving 00:41:22.670 --> 00:41:24.690 around as much. And so they know that she's gone 00:41:24.690 --> 00:41:29.489 into a den. Interesting. And so put the pups 00:41:29.489 --> 00:41:33.469 back in the den and then leave. And then not 00:41:33.469 --> 00:41:36.590 long after, the mother will come back. And she's 00:41:36.590 --> 00:41:40.239 got very strong maternal instincts. at that stage 00:41:40.239 --> 00:41:43.179 right after, and that's why they have 14 days 00:41:43.179 --> 00:41:46.019 or less strong maternal instincts. She can't 00:41:46.019 --> 00:41:50.659 count. And so she just starts nursing those pups. 00:41:50.739 --> 00:41:53.000 And then they're raised as wild pups by those 00:41:53.000 --> 00:41:56.139 parents. Fascinating. So you're, I mean, this 00:41:56.139 --> 00:41:59.579 is so crazy. You're talking about to maintain 00:41:59.579 --> 00:42:02.980 genetic diversity. Sometimes you take puppies 00:42:02.980 --> 00:42:07.420 from a breeding facility. And you time it just 00:42:07.420 --> 00:42:12.159 right with a wild female that's also just given 00:42:12.159 --> 00:42:15.000 birth. And you kind of swap out and intermix 00:42:15.000 --> 00:42:18.780 the puppies to keep things. The logistics of 00:42:18.780 --> 00:42:22.440 that sound incredible. I don't know how you do 00:42:22.440 --> 00:42:25.760 that. Yeah, it is. It's an exhausting, because 00:42:25.760 --> 00:42:28.760 it all happens. Wolves, like I said, they breed 00:42:28.760 --> 00:42:31.199 once a year. So they're pretty much breeding. 00:42:33.610 --> 00:42:37.429 around Valentine's Day, really. But they gestate 00:42:37.429 --> 00:42:41.789 63 days and then have their pups pretty close 00:42:41.789 --> 00:42:44.449 together. So if this is going to work, you're 00:42:44.449 --> 00:42:49.110 doing several animals, packs, within a few weeks. 00:42:49.110 --> 00:42:51.150 Like a week for a few days? Yeah, a few weeks. 00:42:51.550 --> 00:42:56.250 OK. Incredible. Yeah. And so I think by the larger 00:42:56.250 --> 00:43:00.190 numbers, I remember in one year was 22 pups coming. 00:43:00.559 --> 00:43:04.000 into some of these dens. But the important thing 00:43:04.000 --> 00:43:09.800 is that they've done at least 140 different pups 00:43:09.800 --> 00:43:16.039 into these dens now, and they have about 20 that 00:43:16.039 --> 00:43:18.920 have survived to breeding age. So it's not a 00:43:18.920 --> 00:43:20.579 huge number, but those are also just the ones 00:43:20.579 --> 00:43:24.480 that they have detected, because you can't put 00:43:24.480 --> 00:43:27.610 a radio collar on a little pup. But you can put 00:43:27.610 --> 00:43:29.489 microchips in them. So when you encounter them 00:43:29.489 --> 00:43:31.289 again, you know where they came from. You also 00:43:31.289 --> 00:43:34.289 know their genetics from that blood draw. So 00:43:34.289 --> 00:43:40.030 they know at least 20 have made it to two years, 00:43:40.210 --> 00:43:43.210 which is breeding age. And of those, there have 00:43:43.210 --> 00:43:49.880 been at least 20 litters of... of new pups in 00:43:49.880 --> 00:43:52.539 the wild based from these fosters. That is so 00:43:52.539 --> 00:43:55.420 cool. This is such an awesome story. And it kind 00:43:55.420 --> 00:43:57.619 of fits, because I know there's been some examples 00:43:57.619 --> 00:44:00.840 up in Yellowstone of one wolf, a female wolf, 00:44:01.000 --> 00:44:03.599 will raise the puppies of another wolf. If that 00:44:03.599 --> 00:44:06.320 other female has died, they'll actually adopt 00:44:06.320 --> 00:44:10.519 different wolves from a different mother. So 00:44:10.519 --> 00:44:13.420 yeah, that maternal instinct is very strong. 00:44:13.710 --> 00:44:16.969 And I assume pups have a fairly high mortality 00:44:16.969 --> 00:44:21.610 rate their first year. They do. It's about 50%. 00:44:21.610 --> 00:44:25.730 And what they're finding is that the fostered 00:44:25.730 --> 00:44:29.289 pups' mortality is just about the same as the 00:44:29.289 --> 00:44:31.630 pups in the wild. And you know, most species 00:44:31.630 --> 00:44:35.449 have, they often have about a 50%. It's not uncommon. 00:44:35.630 --> 00:44:38.329 Especially predators. Yeah, but there's kind 00:44:38.329 --> 00:44:41.010 of a feast and famine type situation with them. 00:44:41.389 --> 00:44:47.250 So speaking of mortalities, in the wild released 00:44:47.250 --> 00:44:51.090 now wild Mexican wolves, aside from what would 00:44:51.090 --> 00:44:54.949 be expected mortality of old age or encounters 00:44:54.949 --> 00:44:58.190 with other wolves, what's the number one cause 00:44:58.190 --> 00:45:01.789 of wolf mortality among the released wolves? 00:45:03.010 --> 00:45:06.349 It would be human cause mortality. So that hasn't 00:45:06.349 --> 00:45:09.769 changed. Wolves are, yeah, they do get shot. 00:45:10.650 --> 00:45:15.250 And there's been cases, there's one case of a 00:45:15.250 --> 00:45:22.210 rancher who killed a wolf with a shovel and he 00:45:22.210 --> 00:45:25.710 did plead guilty and he ended up losing his forest 00:45:25.710 --> 00:45:28.489 service grazing lease. The leases we were talking 00:45:28.489 --> 00:45:32.070 about. Yeah. People have also shot wolves that 00:45:32.070 --> 00:45:36.710 are wearing radio collars and they've also sometimes 00:45:36.710 --> 00:45:40.739 removed those collars. But it still becomes a 00:45:40.739 --> 00:45:45.880 difficult task to take those cases to court. 00:45:45.880 --> 00:45:50.679 And it's because evidence is often scarce. Smaller 00:45:50.679 --> 00:45:53.980 animals, if you shoot them, the bullet goes on 00:45:53.980 --> 00:45:56.239 through often. And wolves are smaller than Mexican 00:45:56.239 --> 00:46:00.400 wolves. So you don't have the bullet even. They're 00:46:00.400 --> 00:46:03.320 out in the middle of nowhere. They're very remote. 00:46:04.809 --> 00:46:09.849 And then, you know, when you do get a case, it's 00:46:09.849 --> 00:46:12.449 difficult because you're taking it to a US attorney 00:46:12.449 --> 00:46:15.530 who's also dealing with pornography, child abuse, 00:46:15.769 --> 00:46:18.489 all sorts of other pretty important issues also. 00:46:18.489 --> 00:46:21.869 Exactly. And so you're up against that plate 00:46:21.869 --> 00:46:27.250 of other stuff. And then, as you know, the... 00:46:27.000 --> 00:46:30.940 The other challenge is the McKittrick policy 00:46:30.940 --> 00:46:34.739 that says they have to have known that it was 00:46:34.739 --> 00:46:39.260 an endangered animal and it was a wolf. And so 00:46:39.260 --> 00:46:41.519 that's also a challenge. I know I think you've 00:46:41.519 --> 00:46:43.860 talked about that on some of your other podcasts. 00:46:44.440 --> 00:46:46.940 Yeah, the McKittrick policy has come up before 00:46:46.940 --> 00:46:50.059 and it is an anomaly that is causing a lot of 00:46:50.059 --> 00:46:52.539 problems with the prosecution of endangered species, 00:46:52.579 --> 00:46:55.440 not just wolves. But it has particularly impacted 00:46:55.440 --> 00:46:59.139 wolf investigations and prosecutions. Like you 00:46:59.139 --> 00:47:02.019 mentioned, some of these people are removing 00:47:02.019 --> 00:47:04.239 collars and trying to hide the collars or destroy 00:47:04.239 --> 00:47:06.159 the collars, which kind of is an indicator that 00:47:06.159 --> 00:47:08.860 they know they killed a wolf versus something 00:47:08.860 --> 00:47:12.400 else. But just like here's some just anecdotal 00:47:12.400 --> 00:47:14.480 statistics from just talking to different people. 00:47:14.500 --> 00:47:17.800 And these are very informal. But there's an estimate 00:47:17.800 --> 00:47:22.619 among Law enforcement people that between 2017 00:47:22.619 --> 00:47:28.920 and 2022 Sorry, 2020 2017 2022 there were about 00:47:28.920 --> 00:47:32.480 61 suspicious wolf mortality So they were suspected 00:47:32.480 --> 00:47:35.559 of being what we call illegal take which is poaching 00:47:35.559 --> 00:47:37.920 either a shooting or a trapping or something 00:47:37.920 --> 00:47:43.260 of that so 61 only two of those cases were prosecuted 00:47:43.260 --> 00:47:46.920 and That's a lot of that has to do with proof 00:47:46.920 --> 00:47:49.260 problems because they're difficult cases to make 00:47:49.500 --> 00:47:53.900 And also McKittrick played a big role in a lot 00:47:53.900 --> 00:47:56.460 of that because they get what are called declinations 00:47:56.460 --> 00:48:00.019 from the US attorney's office because the US 00:48:00.019 --> 00:48:02.559 attorney is basically nervous about going forward 00:48:02.559 --> 00:48:05.940 where there could be this defense raised by the 00:48:05.940 --> 00:48:09.480 defendant. And you bring up a great point. We've 00:48:09.480 --> 00:48:11.840 talked about this before in previous seasons, 00:48:12.079 --> 00:48:14.559 how the US attorney's offices are set up around 00:48:14.559 --> 00:48:17.159 the country. And these are remote areas where 00:48:17.159 --> 00:48:20.980 these wolves are released. So there's probably 00:48:20.980 --> 00:48:24.019 no environmental crimes unit. It's probably a 00:48:24.019 --> 00:48:26.460 smaller US attorney's office. And they do everything. 00:48:27.260 --> 00:48:29.639 So like you said, when the special agent comes 00:48:29.639 --> 00:48:31.800 in with a case, they're competing against bank 00:48:31.800 --> 00:48:34.679 robbers, child pornographers, smugglers, drug 00:48:34.679 --> 00:48:38.440 dealers, terrorists even, that the office has 00:48:38.440 --> 00:48:40.920 got conflicting. And what are they going to go 00:48:40.920 --> 00:48:43.190 with? They're going to go with the higher profile 00:48:43.190 --> 00:48:46.429 case that maybe is easier to make. They're looking 00:48:46.429 --> 00:48:49.429 at an Endangered Species Act misdemeanor involving 00:48:49.429 --> 00:48:51.909 a wolf that's going to be very difficult to prove 00:48:51.909 --> 00:48:55.309 because of the Department of Justice's own constraints. 00:48:56.409 --> 00:49:00.210 So yeah, it must be really frustrating as a recovery 00:49:00.210 --> 00:49:04.030 coordinator, right? Well, it was very frustrating 00:49:04.030 --> 00:49:08.510 for us and the staff. It's also very frustrating 00:49:08.510 --> 00:49:12.420 for the law enforcement. These cases are not 00:49:12.420 --> 00:49:17.179 for lack of action by law enforcement and Fish 00:49:17.179 --> 00:49:19.960 and Wildlife Service. They really put a lot of 00:49:19.960 --> 00:49:22.900 effort into them. And even though they had very 00:49:22.900 --> 00:49:27.460 few that got convictions, they still would investigate 00:49:27.460 --> 00:49:30.179 and get out there as soon as they could. And 00:49:30.179 --> 00:49:32.820 it was always impressive, really. Good. So you 00:49:32.820 --> 00:49:35.239 always had a good relationship between the recovery 00:49:35.239 --> 00:49:37.480 program and the law enforcement officers who 00:49:37.480 --> 00:49:40.679 were out there. Yes, very much so. And the service, 00:49:41.219 --> 00:49:43.900 the agents that work in New Mexico and Arizona, 00:49:44.159 --> 00:49:45.639 regardless of where they are, they might be in 00:49:45.639 --> 00:49:48.320 Phoenix, they might be in Albuquerque. Every 00:49:48.320 --> 00:49:51.480 agent I know who has been assigned over the years 00:49:51.480 --> 00:49:54.119 to New Mexico or Arizona has worked a wolf case. 00:49:55.099 --> 00:49:57.840 They all kind of like it. It's all hands on deck 00:49:57.840 --> 00:50:00.380 when there's a suspicious wolf and whoever's 00:50:00.380 --> 00:50:03.820 closest, they'll handle it. Plus, Currently the 00:50:03.820 --> 00:50:06.860 service does have one dedicated agent who works, 00:50:07.159 --> 00:50:09.320 you know, primarily his primary responsibility 00:50:09.320 --> 00:50:12.300 is to work on Mexican gray wolf cases and he's 00:50:12.300 --> 00:50:15.320 Based right there in Alpine. So that's good. 00:50:15.320 --> 00:50:18.480 You have somebody who can respond quickly Well, 00:50:18.480 --> 00:50:21.000 and that's another important part of the we talked 00:50:21.000 --> 00:50:23.920 earlier about the To get the animals recovered 00:50:23.920 --> 00:50:26.719 in the other criteria that's in the recovery 00:50:26.719 --> 00:50:30.719 plan is that the states Arizona New Mexico the 00:50:30.719 --> 00:50:34.269 White Mountain Apache tribe who has a good population 00:50:34.269 --> 00:50:38.650 out there, and also Mexico, all need to have 00:50:38.650 --> 00:50:43.730 regulations in place that will ensure that human 00:50:43.730 --> 00:50:46.570 -caused mortality is not going to lead to the 00:50:46.570 --> 00:50:49.869 decline of the population. For delisting, there 00:50:49.869 --> 00:50:52.730 also has to be a population in Mexico. Oh, really? 00:50:52.809 --> 00:50:55.710 I want to make sure I brought that in of 200 00:50:55.710 --> 00:50:59.150 animals over eight years with the same goals. 00:50:59.150 --> 00:51:04.369 OK. And so that's been another key element to 00:51:04.369 --> 00:51:06.449 the recovery of the Mexican wolf. Perfect, because 00:51:06.449 --> 00:51:08.630 this is exactly what I wanted to talk about next 00:51:08.630 --> 00:51:10.590 is, you know, we talked about where we need to 00:51:10.590 --> 00:51:13.929 be to get recovery. And as a biologist who works 00:51:13.929 --> 00:51:15.650 for the Fish and Wildlife Service and spent her 00:51:15.650 --> 00:51:18.110 whole career working on endangered species issues, 00:51:18.809 --> 00:51:21.550 you know, what's the goal of the Endangered Species 00:51:21.550 --> 00:51:24.809 Act? Is it to get animals on the list or off 00:51:24.809 --> 00:51:27.989 the list? Off the list. That is recovery. Exactly. 00:51:28.789 --> 00:51:31.329 Well, getting animals off the list through recovery. 00:51:31.329 --> 00:51:34.019 Yes. Right. I have to put that in because there 00:51:34.019 --> 00:51:37.400 is a bill right now to delist the Mexican wolf 00:51:37.400 --> 00:51:40.480 before the House. Yes. But that would not be 00:51:40.480 --> 00:51:42.539 based on recovery. Right. That's not based on 00:51:42.539 --> 00:51:45.079 science. That's based on politics. And boy, we 00:51:45.079 --> 00:51:46.920 could spend a whole episode talking about the 00:51:46.920 --> 00:51:49.179 myths that have infiltrated the political parties 00:51:49.179 --> 00:51:51.800 of this country regarding Mexican wolves and 00:51:51.800 --> 00:51:54.800 gray wolves in the North, too. But yeah, you're 00:51:54.800 --> 00:51:58.559 right. So the goal of the service and the ESA 00:51:58.559 --> 00:52:01.480 is to get animals off once they are recovered. 00:52:02.269 --> 00:52:04.730 So once they meet that threshold, they can be 00:52:04.730 --> 00:52:07.170 delisted. And then, as you mentioned, properly 00:52:07.170 --> 00:52:09.869 managed by the states. Because we don't want 00:52:09.869 --> 00:52:11.650 to turn it back to the states and then have them 00:52:11.650 --> 00:52:14.750 allow depletion of the animals again. And the 00:52:14.750 --> 00:52:16.550 Fish and Wildlife Service has to come back and 00:52:16.550 --> 00:52:18.769 spend millions of dollars to save them again. 00:52:19.130 --> 00:52:22.710 We don't want that to happen. And we were really 00:52:22.710 --> 00:52:27.030 fortunate that the states and also the tribes 00:52:27.030 --> 00:52:31.679 around were very key to us putting together our 00:52:31.679 --> 00:52:35.980 recovery plan. And so they're on board with where 00:52:35.980 --> 00:52:39.599 the recovery plan is going. Very good. And all 00:52:39.599 --> 00:52:42.500 that with the regulations as well. It is neat 00:52:42.500 --> 00:52:45.800 that the White Mountain Apache Reservations right 00:52:45.800 --> 00:52:48.099 there, because my understanding is they've taken 00:52:48.099 --> 00:52:50.719 a real strong interest in wolf recovery up there. 00:52:51.880 --> 00:52:53.920 Yes. Yes, they've been really good partners. 00:52:54.000 --> 00:52:56.699 That's awesome. And so that gives, you know, 00:52:56.920 --> 00:52:58.820 They, of course, have their own law enforcement. 00:52:59.119 --> 00:53:01.460 They have tribal police. And then, of course, 00:53:01.579 --> 00:53:04.000 Arizona Game and Fish and New Mexico have their 00:53:04.000 --> 00:53:07.119 own state wildlife officers. Have they also been 00:53:07.119 --> 00:53:09.980 supportive of conducting investigations of illegal 00:53:09.980 --> 00:53:14.820 take? Yes, they have been. They partner with 00:53:14.820 --> 00:53:16.639 the law enforcement agents from the Fish and 00:53:16.639 --> 00:53:19.239 Wildlife Service. And Mexico, as well, has their 00:53:19.239 --> 00:53:23.150 own Endangered Species Act. I can't tell you 00:53:23.150 --> 00:53:24.670 the name of it right now off the top of my head, 00:53:25.110 --> 00:53:31.110 but they also have, through their federal government, 00:53:32.130 --> 00:53:35.110 an endangered species act in the listing of the 00:53:35.110 --> 00:53:37.809 Mexican wolf. So what do you think? Are we headed 00:53:37.809 --> 00:53:40.250 in the right direction for Mexican gray wolf 00:53:40.250 --> 00:53:43.349 recovery? Well, we are. I mean, you think about 00:53:43.349 --> 00:53:47.730 it. We started in 98 with zero in the wild. Right. 00:53:48.079 --> 00:53:52.219 Zero in the wild and now we're up to 319 in the 00:53:52.219 --> 00:53:55.159 United States and just in the last two months 00:53:55.159 --> 00:53:58.780 They just released two families of wolves down 00:53:58.780 --> 00:54:01.039 into Mexico I think one still in a pre -release 00:54:01.039 --> 00:54:04.639 pen, but one is in the wild now They released 00:54:04.639 --> 00:54:07.800 a pregnant female and she's welping from what 00:54:07.800 --> 00:54:11.619 I understand right now. So that's great And they're 00:54:11.619 --> 00:54:16.530 released in a new area Durango So we're hopeful 00:54:16.530 --> 00:54:18.969 that that's going to be a positive step forward 00:54:18.969 --> 00:54:22.150 for Mexico, which has been a little more problematic 00:54:22.150 --> 00:54:25.489 at times with poisoning of animals. So yeah, 00:54:25.610 --> 00:54:27.150 we were talking about that a little bit before 00:54:27.150 --> 00:54:29.429 we started recording today and that there's not 00:54:29.429 --> 00:54:34.070 as many regulations on. poisons and poison access 00:54:34.070 --> 00:54:36.809 in Mexico is there, is in the US. And a lot of 00:54:36.809 --> 00:54:39.570 it's illegal, you know, so they, yeah, so it's, 00:54:40.050 --> 00:54:42.670 I don't know what their restrictions are completely, 00:54:42.670 --> 00:54:45.670 but I know a lot of that poisoning is not even 00:54:45.670 --> 00:54:48.909 legal under their laws. And of course, yeah, 00:54:49.210 --> 00:54:51.070 the really insidious thing about poisoning is 00:54:51.070 --> 00:54:52.909 you might not even be targeting wolves. You might 00:54:52.909 --> 00:54:55.090 be targeting some other species and you kill 00:54:55.090 --> 00:54:59.230 whatever comes by. Yeah, we've had another wolf 00:54:59.230 --> 00:55:01.289 case that we talked about earlier in the season 00:55:01.289 --> 00:55:05.050 that was a wolf, attempted wolf poisoning case, 00:55:05.050 --> 00:55:06.769 and it killed a whole lot of other animals in 00:55:06.769 --> 00:55:10.829 the process. It's pretty depressing. And like 00:55:10.829 --> 00:55:12.909 you mentioned, that Mexican release is a key 00:55:12.909 --> 00:55:15.050 component to recovery, right? Because there have 00:55:15.050 --> 00:55:18.389 to be wild wolves there too. And Mexico's been 00:55:18.389 --> 00:55:21.309 a good partner over the years as well. We do 00:55:21.309 --> 00:55:27.250 a lot of meetings with Mexico. Arizona Game and 00:55:27.250 --> 00:55:30.469 Fish as well does a lot of work down helping 00:55:30.469 --> 00:55:35.230 Mexican counterparts. Very cool. So before we 00:55:35.230 --> 00:55:38.070 wrap up, we're almost out of time. As a resident 00:55:38.070 --> 00:55:40.750 in the Southwest, you know, you live in Arizona 00:55:40.750 --> 00:55:43.090 currently, right? Or do you live in New Mexico? 00:55:44.050 --> 00:55:45.769 You're all over the place. You're all over the 00:55:45.769 --> 00:55:51.510 place. Okay, but the Southwest, as a resident, 00:55:51.949 --> 00:55:55.269 longtime resident of the Southwest, what's your 00:55:55.230 --> 00:55:58.190 What's your view on Mexican wolves? What's their 00:55:58.190 --> 00:56:01.110 place? Do they have a place? What do you think? 00:56:02.929 --> 00:56:05.409 I think they're incredibly important. They're 00:56:05.409 --> 00:56:10.530 an apex predator, an iconic apex predator. They're 00:56:10.530 --> 00:56:15.130 important for maintaining the ecosystem, keystone 00:56:15.130 --> 00:56:20.170 species, making sure that the elk are not degrading 00:56:20.170 --> 00:56:26.070 the ecosystems in the southwest. There's also 00:56:26.070 --> 00:56:30.630 other arguments that are really relevant. A lot 00:56:30.630 --> 00:56:33.150 of people find them spiritual. They'll see their 00:56:33.150 --> 00:56:36.650 first wolf in the wild, and it's the most impactful 00:56:36.650 --> 00:56:41.190 thing that's happened to them. And it's also 00:56:41.190 --> 00:56:43.650 just getting these animals back into the wild 00:56:43.650 --> 00:56:48.530 is correcting what humans did in the past by 00:56:48.530 --> 00:56:50.489 almost causing the extinction of the Mexican 00:56:50.489 --> 00:56:57.789 wolf. down to five animals. It's important, I 00:56:57.789 --> 00:57:01.710 think, that we correct those things that we have 00:57:01.710 --> 00:57:05.130 done in the past that were wrong. Wolves are 00:57:05.130 --> 00:57:09.230 very recoverable. They're over -harvested. I 00:57:09.230 --> 00:57:12.710 mean, there's really three ways that, probably 00:57:12.710 --> 00:57:15.050 more, but three basic ways that animals become 00:57:15.050 --> 00:57:20.260 endangered from poisons, toxins like DDT. in 00:57:20.260 --> 00:57:23.239 the environment from over -harvesting and then 00:57:23.239 --> 00:57:26.099 from loss and degradation of habitat. And the 00:57:26.099 --> 00:57:29.840 first two, you can stop putting those toxic things 00:57:29.840 --> 00:57:33.800 into the wild. Like DDT, we stopped that, and 00:57:33.800 --> 00:57:36.980 a lot of species recovered. Peregrines and... 00:57:36.980 --> 00:57:41.739 Eagles, yeah. Pelicans. And you can stop over 00:57:41.739 --> 00:57:46.500 -harvesting to whales and wolves. You can stop... 00:57:46.650 --> 00:57:49.829 doing that and they will recover. The things 00:57:49.829 --> 00:57:52.010 that are harder, the species that are harder 00:57:52.010 --> 00:57:54.429 to recover, those where you have to, they've 00:57:54.429 --> 00:57:56.929 lost their habitat and you don't know where else 00:57:56.929 --> 00:57:59.829 to get it back or it's degraded to the point 00:57:59.829 --> 00:58:02.929 you have to restore it. And we're just not, we're 00:58:02.929 --> 00:58:05.630 not smart enough. We're not that good at restoring 00:58:05.630 --> 00:58:08.349 habitats. There's so many components that we 00:58:08.349 --> 00:58:11.070 just don't really even know what they are. And 00:58:11.070 --> 00:58:13.650 so we try hard, but we don't always make it. 00:58:14.650 --> 00:58:18.809 Wolves are very recoverable. I think that's a 00:58:18.809 --> 00:58:22.110 that's a great statement that people need to 00:58:22.110 --> 00:58:25.250 remember is that if we and it kind of fits with 00:58:25.250 --> 00:58:27.730 what I've always said is that a role that law 00:58:27.730 --> 00:58:31.090 enforcement plays in recovery is that we can 00:58:31.090 --> 00:58:33.610 sometimes give the animals the breathing room 00:58:33.610 --> 00:58:36.469 they need to make that because we take we can 00:58:36.469 --> 00:58:38.670 help take away some of those pressures of the 00:58:38.670 --> 00:58:41.130 overharvest. Yes. Gives them just that enough 00:58:41.130 --> 00:58:43.710 breathing room to make that next leap to recovery. 00:58:43.789 --> 00:58:46.599 Right. And that's, as human beings, that's all 00:58:46.599 --> 00:58:49.900 we really need to do, you know? Yeah. So let 00:58:49.900 --> 00:58:52.800 me ask you this. What would you say to somebody, 00:58:53.019 --> 00:58:57.579 those are great, very valid reasons. What would 00:58:57.579 --> 00:58:59.840 you say to somebody who lives in Miami or New 00:58:59.840 --> 00:59:03.280 York City or downtown Seattle or downtown LA, 00:59:03.360 --> 00:59:05.420 why should they care about Mexican gray wolves? 00:59:06.739 --> 00:59:09.500 You know, it's interesting. We get a lot of support 00:59:09.500 --> 00:59:12.199 from all over the country for the Mexican wolf 00:59:12.199 --> 00:59:18.420 and all over the world. because people, they 00:59:18.420 --> 00:59:23.639 feel that they feel that bond with wolves. And 00:59:23.639 --> 00:59:25.559 of course, people, you know, out here will say, 00:59:25.719 --> 00:59:27.420 Okay, well, go put them in Miami, then you don't 00:59:27.420 --> 00:59:29.860 put them in their backyards. I get that. I hear 00:59:29.860 --> 00:59:33.980 that a lot, too. But the reality is, is that 00:59:33.980 --> 00:59:44.000 people do still care about wolves. And That howl 00:59:44.000 --> 00:59:48.239 in the wild is pretty incredible to hear. And 00:59:48.239 --> 00:59:50.880 some people just want to know that that howl 00:59:50.880 --> 00:59:54.320 in the wild is out there. Exactly. I have always 00:59:54.320 --> 00:59:58.219 said that about tigers. I have never seen a tiger 00:59:58.219 --> 01:00:00.480 in the wild, and I'm pretty confident I never 01:00:00.480 --> 01:00:02.940 will. But it's really important to me to know 01:00:02.940 --> 01:00:04.920 that they're there. I don't know why. I just 01:00:04.920 --> 01:00:07.340 want to know that there are tigers there. I could 01:00:07.340 --> 01:00:10.889 go see. If I had the money, the time, and the 01:00:10.889 --> 01:00:14.050 luck. That's exactly right. And one last thing 01:00:14.050 --> 01:00:15.849 I'll say too on wolves, and then I'll let you 01:00:15.849 --> 01:00:20.630 have the last word, is that I consider, like 01:00:20.630 --> 01:00:23.150 you said, people that are out there, they see 01:00:23.150 --> 01:00:24.869 a wolf for the first time. They're kind of moved. 01:00:25.269 --> 01:00:27.829 For me, it wasn't seeing a wolf for the first 01:00:27.829 --> 01:00:31.409 time. I was hearing one. And I was hiking in 01:00:31.409 --> 01:00:34.260 the back country in Yellowstone. You're out there. 01:00:34.260 --> 01:00:36.519 You're feeling vulnerable anyway. And then you 01:00:36.519 --> 01:00:38.719 hear this very deep howl that's very different 01:00:38.719 --> 01:00:42.760 than a coyote howl. And it just was a, it's one 01:00:42.760 --> 01:00:45.619 of those moments in your life where you remember 01:00:45.619 --> 01:00:48.300 every aspect of that moment. And it's just a 01:00:48.300 --> 01:00:51.019 reminder that you're part of the natural environment. 01:00:51.820 --> 01:00:54.500 And this is triggering something in you that's 01:00:54.500 --> 01:00:58.400 very primal that goes back. thousands of years 01:00:58.400 --> 01:01:02.559 in your DNA. And I kind of put it up there with 01:01:02.559 --> 01:01:05.260 other experiences. Being on foot in Africa and 01:01:05.260 --> 01:01:09.119 encountering an elephant, that's a very moving 01:01:09.119 --> 01:01:12.800 experience too. Not in a vehicle, but on foot. 01:01:13.260 --> 01:01:15.679 That's a very moving experience that'll change 01:01:15.679 --> 01:01:20.219 your life in a hurry. But it also gives you an 01:01:20.219 --> 01:01:23.059 incredible appreciation for the animal and the 01:01:23.059 --> 01:01:25.099 environment that that animal needs and lives 01:01:25.099 --> 01:01:28.900 in, right? Anyway. So last word, Sheri, I'll 01:01:28.900 --> 01:01:31.320 give you the last word. What haven't I asked 01:01:31.320 --> 01:01:33.360 you or what do you wish I would have asked you 01:01:33.360 --> 01:01:38.360 in this interview? Well, you know, wolves, they 01:01:38.360 --> 01:01:42.099 get a lot of attention from a lot of different 01:01:42.099 --> 01:01:47.000 realms, politically, from the public and everything. 01:01:47.659 --> 01:01:49.559 You know, a lot of species don't get any attention. 01:01:49.699 --> 01:01:52.599 You know, you think about some of our... endangered 01:01:52.599 --> 01:01:55.679 isopods and plants and stuff and very sure I 01:01:55.679 --> 01:01:58.340 get it that they're they you know all of our 01:01:58.340 --> 01:02:01.860 endangered species need more resources to get 01:02:01.860 --> 01:02:05.079 to recovery and a lot of them are simply forgotten 01:02:05.079 --> 01:02:07.480 almost not by the biologists but by the public. 01:02:07.980 --> 01:02:11.679 So wolves get more attention than most others 01:02:11.679 --> 01:02:15.500 and sometimes more than you want. It's nice to 01:02:15.500 --> 01:02:18.760 have the the backing but you know it's a challenging 01:02:18.760 --> 01:02:22.110 program and I just have So much respect for all 01:02:22.110 --> 01:02:24.150 the staff. A lot of them have been there a long 01:02:24.150 --> 01:02:27.550 time and been through bringing these wolves back 01:02:27.550 --> 01:02:34.849 into the wild. It's a great program. It's a challenging 01:02:34.849 --> 01:02:37.309 program because there is so much going on all 01:02:37.309 --> 01:02:40.969 the time, but it is also very rewarding to especially 01:02:40.969 --> 01:02:45.710 see that population growing in the wild. Perfect. 01:02:45.989 --> 01:02:48.449 And you know, no doubt the people like you and 01:02:48.449 --> 01:02:51.130 the people who worked with you put a whole lot 01:02:51.130 --> 01:02:53.090 of blood, sweat, and tears into this program. 01:02:53.550 --> 01:02:56.789 And why? To help wolves recover, but really why 01:02:56.789 --> 01:03:00.809 is for the American people, which that's amazing. 01:03:00.849 --> 01:03:06.110 That's a huge thing that you do for us. And so 01:03:06.110 --> 01:03:08.530 thank you, Sheri, for everything you've done 01:03:08.530 --> 01:03:10.190 in that program and all the people that worked 01:03:10.190 --> 01:03:14.449 with you. Really appreciate it. Thank you. 100%. 01:03:14.449 --> 01:03:17.699 Thank you for being on the episode. Ladies and 01:03:17.699 --> 01:03:20.019 gentlemen coming up next week We are going to 01:03:20.019 --> 01:03:22.199 jump back into a law enforcement case and we're 01:03:22.199 --> 01:03:24.219 going to talk about a law enforcement case involving 01:03:24.219 --> 01:03:27.300 a Mexican gray wolf So thank you for tuning in. 01:03:27.300 --> 01:03:30.719 We'll see you next week Nature's Secret Service 01:03:30.719 --> 01:03:33.320 is written and produced by me at newcomer and 01:03:33.320 --> 01:03:36.460 is co -produced by the DH TV team here at California 01:03:36.460 --> 01:03:39.219 State University Dominguez Hills Follow us on 01:03:39.219 --> 01:03:42.400 social media and connect with us online at naturesecretservice 01:03:42.400 --> 01:03:42.980 .com