WEBVTT

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If you want to learn more about the topics of

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today's episode, visit the podcast website at

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naturessecretservice .com. Thanks for listening.

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Okay, people, listen up. Here we go. This is

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Nature's Secret Service, the podcast that puts

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you in the room with the men and women of wildlife

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law enforcement. I'm Ed Newcomer, your host,

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and I was a special agent with the US Fish and

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Wildlife Service for more than 20 years. Our

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guest today is former special agent Steve Stowinski.

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You might remember Steve from season one of Nature's

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Secret Service. He's been on the podcast before,

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and I'm sure he'll be on the podcast again. But

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I'm super excited to have him here today as part

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of our season on wolves. Steve, thank you so

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much for being back on the podcast. It's always

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a pleasure to talk to you and see you. And I

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really appreciate you being part of this. Well,

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thanks for having me. Good to see you again.

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Absolutely. Hey, refresh everybody's memory.

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How long were you a special agent for US Fish

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and Wildlife Service? Just about 25 years. Yeah.

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You came on before me and I can't remember what

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year you were hired. Was it late 90s? 98. 98.

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Okay. Yeah. We were talking the other day about

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what special agent class we were in. And I think

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I was in 26 and you were in 23 or two, something

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like that. Yeah. I think 23. Okay. 23. Yep, special

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agent, basic school, SABs. And before that, you

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were a state officer with two different states.

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Which states? It was Utah and which other? Wisconsin.

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Yeah. So you had experience as a uniformed patrol

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officer in the West and the Midwest, and then

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a long career as a special agent with US Fish

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and Wildlife Service. And most of the time, while

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you were an agent, you were based in areas that

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where wolves occurred. Yeah, it was Wyoming,

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which is kind of like ground zero for wolf reintroduction

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in the US. And then where was the other place

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that there were wolves with that while you were

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an agent? Alaska had wolves, but they were a

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huntable population that protected under the

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Endangered Species Act. And then Wisconsin, that

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other stronghold of wolves on the lower 48 in

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the Great Lakes, Western Great Lakes. Right.

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And you bring up an interesting point that we

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probably haven't talked about enough during this

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season of the podcast. And that is a reminder

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that when wolves were reintroduced into the lower

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48 states, so below Alaska or below Canada, that

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was 1995. They were automatically listed. That

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population was listed under the Endangered Species

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Act. But there had already been a small population

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in the Great Lakes area that had persisted and

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managed to survive the predator extirpation efforts

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of the early 20th century. And those wolves,

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of course, were listed. But wolves up in Alaska,

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like you mentioned, they're plentiful enough

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that they're hunted. So they're not covered by

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the Endangered Species Act. That population in

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Alaska, is that right? That's right. Yeah. And

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an important thing that I reminded myself of

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just the other day, I went online and I looked

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up the Endangered Species Act and I searched

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wolves. And yeah, it reminded me that wolves

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were listed under the Endangered Species Act

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going back to 1967. And then they were relisted

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in the 1973 amendments to the act. And so even

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though we hadn't gone through wolf reintroduction

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yet, That of course covered the Great Lakes wolves

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and then every once in a while wolves would naturally

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migrate down from Canada into the US maybe northern

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Washington or northern Idaho or Montana and once

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they cross that international border They were

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automatically listed under the ESA for protection

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couldn't be killed. So that was even before reintroduction,

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but Anyway, I got a little off there. You worked

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in some really important areas for wolf reintroduction

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and wolf conservation during your career. How

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many wolf cases or wolf investigations do you

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think you were involved in during your career

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as an agent, just as an agent? Well, excluding

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the ones that might have been LACIAC related

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in Alaska, I'm going to guess somewhere between

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50 and 75. wolf investigations. I say that not

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including the number of wolves because some cases

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had multiple wolves as part of that investigation,

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but every wolf that got killed in one way shape

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or form, my office or another agent's office

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in Wisconsin or Minnesota was notified. Here

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in Wyoming, I and another agent were point agents

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for wolf killings here, right before they got

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delisted again in 2017. Right. Yeah. I mean,

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you worked basically in the Lander, Wyoming area,

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which is, you know, I don't know what your particular

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area of responsibility was as an agent, but if

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you look at a map of Wyoming, Lander is kind

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of like, Dead center south east of Yellowstone

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National Park. So of course, as wolf populations

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grew, lander was ideal habitat, or that area

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around lander. So you have an interesting, the

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Fish and Wildlife Service, US Fish and Wildlife

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Service has a national forensics laboratory.

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And they've always said something interesting

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about you. What is it they say about you and

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evidence? I got to know everybody on staff there

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really well, and I didn't really know. I just

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thought everybody was sending stuff in, and they

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do. But several of the pathologists and the vets

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there and the forensics folks said, you send

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in more evidence than anybody we know. And a

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lot of it had to do with the number of eagles

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that were here in Wyoming or in Wisconsin or

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the number of wolves especially, because every

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wolf I sent in to get an official. um, autopsy

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for humans, but knee crapsies for wolves. And

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they helped me figure out what caused the death

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of each wolf that we recovered. So, yeah. I love

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it. I didn't know. I was hoping that that was

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a compliment or just bearing them with too much

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work. No, you know what? I think that definitely

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was a compliment because, you know, in the service,

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as we've talked about before on this podcast,

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it's a small agency. Everybody knows each other.

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And I think the greatest compliment any agent

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could ever receive is something along the lines

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of, you're a worker. And when you're sending

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stuff to the lab, you're working. Obviously,

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you're producing. You're doing stuff. And I think

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that is a compliment when somebody says, man,

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you're producing above and beyond what everybody

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else is. That's a compliment. Yeah, true. Thanks.

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Yeah, of course. It's also interesting because

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we've talked also before on this podcast about

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the diversity of work between agents depending

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on where they were in the country. And you were

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sending a lot of animals to the lab for necropsies,

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whether it was bald eagles or wolves or maybe

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grizzly bears or whatever, for cause of death

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analysis, bullet trajectories, whatever. And

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where I was in Southern California, Most of the

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lab work we were doing was probably DNA related,

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because we had a lot of animal parts coming in

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and out that we didn't know what they were. And

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we did a lot of caviar cases. And so all of that

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requires DNA work. So it's kind of funny, because

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different sections of our lab probably knew different

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agents based on what the majority of. of lab

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requests related to their particular niche was,

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you know? Yeah, that's interesting. And I just

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thought of something when you said that. In all

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the years of working there, I never got to visit

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the lab. You never visited the lab? No. I wish

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I did. Because so much work got done there without

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their help. My god. It just would have been so

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invaluable. And I always wanted to go there.

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I never got a chance to see the lab with all

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that stuff they did to help us in the field.

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I just never had to see it. I was kind of a bummer.

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Yeah, that's a shame. I mean, I think maybe I

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got to go there because I worked in the same

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region that the lab was located in. So I got

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to go there two or three times. And yeah, every

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time I went, it's just so impressive because,

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I mean, it is a totally legit crime lab. It's

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just completely dedicated to wildlife crime.

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It's a pretty impressive facility. In fact, I'm

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supposed to go up there soon to volunteer to

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help them mount some butterflies for their morphology

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section. I just need to find the time. If you

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need help, I am retiring. We'll travel, so no

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one gets to see the place. Yeah. Well, I'm going

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to try to do it this summer, so we'll be in touch.

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But hey, before you and I get off talking about

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other things like we tend to do when we're together,

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let's get back to Wolves. of these wolf cases

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that you've done, obviously you and I have talked

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about some of them. And I think there were two

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that we really wanted to talk about today. And

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one's kind of unique because of how it involves

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Canada. So let's talk about these two wolf cases

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that you and I talked about before. Which one

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do you want to start with? You want to start

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with the one that involved Canada? Let's talk

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about the one involved with Wisconsin, because

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that one helps set the stage for some of the

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things that we did in Canada. OK, perfect. When

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you get experience as an agent, sometimes the

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lessons you learn from one investigation help

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you on another one. And so I think that order

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would be helpful in this instance. OK, let's

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do that. So let's start with the year. And then

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also, before we jump right into the facts of

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that case, can you just refresh listeners a little

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bit about the population of wolves there in the

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Great Lakes area? So my understanding is back

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in the day, pre -European settlement, I don't

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know how they estimate this, but they estimated

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that there was between 250 to maybe a million

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wolves in North America, which is pretty remarkable.

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And currently they estimate the population in

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the lower 48 to be around 6 ,000. And that would

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be roughly 3 ,500 in the Great Lakes area, and

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then another 2 ,500 here in the Western states.

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And they had population goals for each area.

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I don't remember what the population goal was

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in the Great Lakes. It seems to me that each

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state had their own that they could handle. And

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I don't remember what each individual state said,

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Michigan, Minnesota, and Wisconsin. And being

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assigned to Wisconsin, I mostly paid attention

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to Wisconsin wolves. Gotcha. And when you say

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population goals, you're talking about like recovery

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under the Endangered Species Act, right? Yeah,

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what they were shooting for and trying to reach

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those goals. And then when they did reach the

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goal, sometimes there were court cases to keep

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them going. Because even though they expanded

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in Wisconsin, they may not have reached the population

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goal in Michigan. And the packs were usually

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interrelated. impact will travel. So, you know,

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they set up territories and there's a lot of

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territorialism between wolves and wolf packs.

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Right. So, yeah, so there was back and forth,

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like, right around, like in Wyoming, I, if I

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recall correctly, the population goal was 300

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wolves. And when at list, at delisting time,

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they had exceeded that. And then Wyoming promptly

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tried to get them back down to 300. And I think

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we're hovering on that now. So. Okay. OK, yeah,

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we'll talk a little bit about that at the end

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of this episode about, you know, Wyoming's current

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wolf management plans and things like that. Yeah.

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OK, so yeah, tell us about it. Great Lakes is

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rated around $2 ,500. OK. So tell us about this

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first case we want to talk about that involved

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Great Lakes wolves. You know, one of the bigger

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challenges of agents is trying to catch people

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that poison wildlife. And poisoning cases can

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be challenging. Having to link the victims, the

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dead animals, to the poison site, and then the

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poison in the baits or whatever they put out

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there to the person who put it there. And as

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you know, out in nature, there's nobody hiding

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around the corner. There's no... And we have

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trail camps now, but for the most part in the

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early days, you know, nobody came out of the

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woods and said, Hey, somebody's poisoning all

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of our friends here in the wool and the woods.

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So it's a quiet place to commit a crime. Exactly.

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This is around. So it's a tough challenge. I

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always liked the challenges of those and poisoning

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cases are pretty upsetting. If you've ever worked

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on one and this in particular, this case. It

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was an 8 ,000 acre farm in North Central Wisconsin.

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So it was in the heart of Wolf, you know, recovery

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area for Wisconsin. And this 8 ,000 acre farm,

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they grew potatoes there. And in addition to

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the potato farming, By the way, the potatoes

00:14:07.820 --> 00:14:09.860
are grown for Frito Lay. So every time I see

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a Frito Lay package, I think of this case. So

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I'm haunted by that. So in a nutshell, this 8

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,000 acre farm had tons of great deer habitat.

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And the owners, the father in particular, he

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wanted to raise these pheasants to release on

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the 8 ,000 acre farm. And they were a unique

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pheasant. They were like a blue phased pheasant.

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And I remember walking around out there on the

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property looking for poisons. I haven't seen

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these blue pheasants. It was just weird to see

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a bird hails out of Asia in a blue phase running

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around the woods of northern Wisconsin. But the

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deer population was very important to this family

00:14:52.909 --> 00:14:57.330
and this domesticated pen -raised pheasant release

00:14:57.330 --> 00:15:00.789
program. So any predator on that property was

00:15:00.789 --> 00:15:04.779
to be eliminated. had their own predator management

00:15:04.779 --> 00:15:08.600
program on this property. And in particular,

00:15:08.620 --> 00:15:11.539
in that area, they really despised wolves because

00:15:11.539 --> 00:15:15.000
wolves were a threat to their deer herd. And

00:15:15.000 --> 00:15:17.899
anything else that might kill a pheasant or a

00:15:17.899 --> 00:15:21.940
deer needed to be killed. So this is the goal

00:15:21.940 --> 00:15:24.299
of the poisoning, right, is to eliminate predators.

00:15:25.559 --> 00:15:27.960
And astonishingly, these aren't even North American

00:15:27.960 --> 00:15:30.259
pheasant. These are like exotic pheasant that

00:15:30.259 --> 00:15:32.919
are not native. to the United States. And they're

00:15:32.919 --> 00:15:35.259
going to kill native wildlife to protect that.

00:15:35.480 --> 00:15:39.840
Yeah. So we have this basically an unauthorized

00:15:39.840 --> 00:15:43.419
release of a wild pen -raised animal on this

00:15:43.419 --> 00:15:46.059
farm. There are no permits for it. Releasing

00:15:46.059 --> 00:15:48.440
these pheasants on this farm and then killing

00:15:48.440 --> 00:15:51.139
our native wildlife to protect this pen -raised

00:15:51.139 --> 00:15:55.039
animal seems, you know. Uh, just a contradiction

00:15:55.039 --> 00:16:00.960
and conservation. So anyhow, the Wisconsin DNR,

00:16:00.960 --> 00:16:03.519
uh, there was an officer there. Um, probably

00:16:03.519 --> 00:16:05.080
won't say his name just in case he doesn't want

00:16:05.080 --> 00:16:08.740
to any publicity, but he was a good officer and

00:16:08.740 --> 00:16:10.840
he worked in this area at the time and he had

00:16:10.840 --> 00:16:13.120
gotten, uh, you know, he had some good informants

00:16:13.120 --> 00:16:16.320
in the area and this family was, uh, pretty well

00:16:16.320 --> 00:16:19.019
known, very powerful politically, financially

00:16:19.019 --> 00:16:22.539
land base wise. And it's hard to work on this

00:16:22.539 --> 00:16:24.950
property without. you know, being questioned

00:16:24.950 --> 00:16:27.769
or stopped. And he had gotten a report that there

00:16:27.769 --> 00:16:30.529
were some dead animals somebody had seen. And

00:16:30.529 --> 00:16:33.610
he went to look at this scene where these animals

00:16:33.610 --> 00:16:37.269
were dead. He found a dead deer there. And then

00:16:37.269 --> 00:16:40.129
around the dead deer, he found a bald eagle,

00:16:40.389 --> 00:16:44.909
a crow, a squirrel and a bobcat. And the further

00:16:44.909 --> 00:16:47.669
around the circle of this deer carcass, we called

00:16:47.669 --> 00:16:51.190
it the circle of death, where this and he suspected

00:16:51.190 --> 00:16:54.220
maybe this was poison. So he called my office

00:16:54.220 --> 00:16:56.980
and asked for help because there was a bald eagle

00:16:56.980 --> 00:16:59.659
involved. And at that time, bald and golden eagles

00:16:59.659 --> 00:17:02.399
were still listed as threatened and protected

00:17:02.399 --> 00:17:07.259
under the ESA. And wolves as well were protected

00:17:07.259 --> 00:17:10.660
under that. He had known as the local game warden

00:17:10.660 --> 00:17:12.539
there, the conservation warden in Wisconsin,

00:17:12.619 --> 00:17:15.400
he had known through the community that this

00:17:15.400 --> 00:17:18.740
family hated wolves. And most of their, as you

00:17:18.740 --> 00:17:21.079
said, most of their poison activities were to

00:17:21.079 --> 00:17:24.789
target wolves and any other predator that prey

00:17:24.789 --> 00:17:29.130
upon the deer or these pheasants. Ironically,

00:17:29.269 --> 00:17:31.210
I remember him telling me this, this was shocking.

00:17:31.890 --> 00:17:34.390
They had so many deer on this property, you know,

00:17:34.410 --> 00:17:37.450
it was really well populated with deer. And then

00:17:37.450 --> 00:17:41.809
they would file for crop damage reimbursement

00:17:41.809 --> 00:17:44.430
from the state. So here they're like growing

00:17:44.430 --> 00:17:47.720
the herd and then filing claims to collect, you

00:17:47.720 --> 00:17:50.940
know, crop damage from the deer and eliminating

00:17:50.940 --> 00:17:53.339
all the predators that might keep the deer herd

00:17:53.339 --> 00:17:56.380
in check. It was just a fiasco. And then they're

00:17:56.380 --> 00:17:58.980
hunting the deer, of course, too. So correct.

00:17:59.160 --> 00:18:01.259
And it was a lot. Wisconsin's a big deer hunting

00:18:01.259 --> 00:18:04.059
state. And this was important to the, you know,

00:18:04.660 --> 00:18:06.559
important tradition and families come out for

00:18:06.559 --> 00:18:08.619
the big deer hunt and having all the deer was

00:18:08.619 --> 00:18:15.099
important. So this officer, he He kept track

00:18:15.099 --> 00:18:18.880
of finding eagles near the property, other birds,

00:18:19.500 --> 00:18:21.420
and for about a couple of years, we didn't have

00:18:21.420 --> 00:18:23.819
enough to figure out how we're going to figure

00:18:23.819 --> 00:18:27.119
out how they're poisoning these things. But we

00:18:27.119 --> 00:18:29.460
caught a break in this case, and there's how

00:18:29.460 --> 00:18:32.359
this happened. He had heard through the community

00:18:32.359 --> 00:18:35.440
that this family was looking for people to come

00:18:35.440 --> 00:18:38.359
and hunt and trap predators on their property.

00:18:38.619 --> 00:18:40.960
And I'm like, jackpot, I know what to do here.

00:18:41.000 --> 00:18:45.220
Perfect. So we found us a very knowledgeable

00:18:45.220 --> 00:18:47.819
state game warden who wanted to try his hand

00:18:47.819 --> 00:18:51.680
at undercover work. Perfect. But he was an avid

00:18:51.680 --> 00:18:58.660
trapper and he liked trapping and the whole fur

00:18:58.660 --> 00:19:01.420
trade. Right, so he could talk the talk and walk

00:19:01.420 --> 00:19:03.799
the walk. Absolutely. Yeah. So we asked him if

00:19:03.799 --> 00:19:05.619
he'd be willing. He's like, heck yeah, let's

00:19:05.619 --> 00:19:08.140
try it. So we had a meeting between, oh, and

00:19:08.140 --> 00:19:09.779
by the way, because there was poison involved,

00:19:09.880 --> 00:19:12.700
I involved the APA. So the Fish and Wildlife

00:19:12.700 --> 00:19:15.140
Service took the lead on the case. And then the

00:19:15.140 --> 00:19:18.240
Wisconsin DNR participated. They provided us

00:19:18.240 --> 00:19:21.519
with a lot of support. And in such, we used this

00:19:21.519 --> 00:19:24.720
undercover guy to go out there. It was so easy.

00:19:24.960 --> 00:19:28.220
It was just, he went up like, Anybody else would

00:19:28.220 --> 00:19:30.240
go up and ask for permission to hunt or trap

00:19:30.240 --> 00:19:32.740
on someone's property. He went up and said he

00:19:32.740 --> 00:19:36.720
wanted to I catch some coyotes and that kind

00:19:36.720 --> 00:19:38.819
of thing and told him what he wants to kill some

00:19:38.819 --> 00:19:41.140
predators and they all but hugged him practically

00:19:41.140 --> 00:19:44.839
when he showed up right and A bummer in this

00:19:44.839 --> 00:19:47.339
part of it. He was nervous about doing this undercover

00:19:47.339 --> 00:19:49.220
thing and he didn't want to wear a recording

00:19:49.220 --> 00:19:52.380
device So he was just nervous that he'd get checked

00:19:52.380 --> 00:19:55.460
or something. So right he went with the father

00:19:55.460 --> 00:19:59.289
of this property and Inside of 15 minutes, he

00:19:59.289 --> 00:20:02.049
had gotten the whole story of how they poisoned

00:20:02.049 --> 00:20:04.849
wildlife on this farm. Unbelievable. And just

00:20:04.849 --> 00:20:06.950
told them everything they did, what kind of animals,

00:20:07.089 --> 00:20:08.710
what kind of baits, what they were targeting,

00:20:09.309 --> 00:20:11.089
how much he hated wolves. They wanted to kill

00:20:11.089 --> 00:20:13.450
all the bears. They want to kill coyotes, eagles

00:20:13.450 --> 00:20:17.430
they don't care about, fishers, you know, anything

00:20:17.430 --> 00:20:20.369
that would kill ravens, anything that would prey

00:20:20.369 --> 00:20:24.980
on, you know. animals, they wanted dead. Wow.

00:20:25.039 --> 00:20:27.440
So he got all of this and probably inside of

00:20:27.440 --> 00:20:29.900
30 minutes when he came back so quickly, I thought,

00:20:29.900 --> 00:20:33.380
Oh God, it didn't go well. He came back. He says,

00:20:33.599 --> 00:20:35.759
Steve, he goes, you were right. I should have

00:20:35.759 --> 00:20:37.759
worn a recorder. I'm like, why? He goes, he told

00:20:37.759 --> 00:20:40.779
me everything. Wow. So we had this admission,

00:20:40.779 --> 00:20:42.960
but still we have a ways to go. You know, we

00:20:42.960 --> 00:20:46.039
got to connect them to it. So he began trapping

00:20:46.039 --> 00:20:49.079
out there on the farm. And in short order, he

00:20:49.079 --> 00:20:53.240
had won this, the father and his elder son. When

00:20:53.240 --> 00:20:55.240
I say son, he was in his forties probably at

00:20:55.240 --> 00:20:58.779
the time and the dad was in his seventies. And

00:20:58.779 --> 00:21:02.519
old family established up there in Northern Wisconsin.

00:21:02.720 --> 00:21:05.740
So our undercover guy got to know them and won

00:21:05.740 --> 00:21:10.400
them over. And to tip them over to his side,

00:21:10.849 --> 00:21:13.809
We sent him out there with a dead wolf that we

00:21:13.809 --> 00:21:15.990
had given him to make it look like he killed

00:21:15.990 --> 00:21:18.690
it because we wanted them to have confidence

00:21:18.690 --> 00:21:20.750
in them. And they gave him all the instructions

00:21:20.750 --> 00:21:23.049
in the world to kill wolves. If he found them,

00:21:23.130 --> 00:21:24.970
leave them there and they'll help take care of

00:21:24.970 --> 00:21:27.630
it. So he went out there with this wolf and he

00:21:27.630 --> 00:21:30.910
was, he portrayed it like he killed it, trapped

00:21:30.910 --> 00:21:33.880
it and shot it. And they, they bought it. And

00:21:33.880 --> 00:21:37.759
they were all happy to hear about it. And then

00:21:37.759 --> 00:21:40.140
he said, oh, just don't go on this side of the

00:21:40.140 --> 00:21:41.779
farm. This is where we're putting our poison.

00:21:41.900 --> 00:21:44.299
We don't want you to get hurt or anything like

00:21:44.299 --> 00:21:46.039
that, which was a green light for us to go out

00:21:46.039 --> 00:21:49.640
and try and find active poison sites. So we went

00:21:49.640 --> 00:21:52.359
out there in teams, a couple, like three man

00:21:52.359 --> 00:21:56.299
teams. And, you know, we don't want to get caught

00:21:56.299 --> 00:21:58.839
there. So we'd go on a day when we knew he was

00:21:58.839 --> 00:22:01.309
out there trapping. and which part of the farm

00:22:01.309 --> 00:22:04.029
the father and son would probably be on so we

00:22:04.029 --> 00:22:07.190
could get our field inspections for these poison

00:22:07.190 --> 00:22:10.750
sites. And we found 10 of them. Okay. Wow. Around

00:22:10.750 --> 00:22:13.970
these 10 poison sites in the first few weeks

00:22:13.970 --> 00:22:16.890
that we found them and monitored them, we found

00:22:16.890 --> 00:22:21.630
29 dead animals ranging from, you know, bobcats,

00:22:22.089 --> 00:22:28.009
coyotes, wolves, no wolves, ravens, crows. songbirds,

00:22:28.309 --> 00:22:31.769
like chickadees, any bird that would eat like

00:22:31.769 --> 00:22:35.230
suet from a bird feeder will feed on like carrion

00:22:35.230 --> 00:22:39.130
or meat they find in the woods, skunks, weasels.

00:22:40.109 --> 00:22:43.549
You know, even in the warmer weather, the insects

00:22:43.549 --> 00:22:46.230
would land on these poison beaver carcasses,

00:22:46.529 --> 00:22:49.210
ground up meat, deer parts, and they would die

00:22:49.210 --> 00:22:52.490
right on top of the carcass. The poison was so

00:22:52.490 --> 00:22:54.970
lethal. I left out an important detail. And that

00:22:54.970 --> 00:22:57.730
first poison site that the officer found, when

00:22:57.730 --> 00:23:00.789
we sent it to the lab, they confirmed that all

00:23:00.789 --> 00:23:03.009
the animals were, in fact, poisoned. And the

00:23:03.009 --> 00:23:06.329
deer carcass that they laced was covered in this

00:23:06.329 --> 00:23:10.650
compound called carbophuran, which became a discontinued

00:23:10.650 --> 00:23:14.089
pesticide used in agriculture because of its

00:23:14.089 --> 00:23:17.849
lethality. That would kill you guys as officers

00:23:17.849 --> 00:23:20.230
if you mistakenly touched it or did something.

00:23:20.849 --> 00:23:24.549
Yeah, there's like horror stories surrounding

00:23:24.549 --> 00:23:26.990
that where one officer walked through a bait

00:23:26.990 --> 00:23:29.069
site and came home and had the stuff on his shoes

00:23:29.069 --> 00:23:32.150
and his toddler crawling on the floor, put his

00:23:32.150 --> 00:23:34.730
hands in his mouth and you know. had to rush

00:23:34.730 --> 00:23:37.650
the baby to the hospital and the stuff's just

00:23:37.650 --> 00:23:40.390
horrible. So they were using this carbofuran

00:23:40.390 --> 00:23:43.869
and it was in all the animals. And then we started

00:23:43.869 --> 00:23:46.029
finding more of these bait sites and then dead

00:23:46.029 --> 00:23:48.750
animals sent them all to the lab. This is probably

00:23:48.750 --> 00:23:52.250
why the lab said that when you do a poisoning

00:23:52.250 --> 00:23:54.130
case, you're sending them a lot of dead stuff.

00:23:54.289 --> 00:23:56.650
Exactly. And they were testing everything and

00:23:56.650 --> 00:23:59.210
it was all coming back to this. Now we know that

00:23:59.210 --> 00:24:01.230
they're actively poisoning. They said they were.

00:24:01.230 --> 00:24:03.049
We've got the admission of it, but we've got

00:24:03.049 --> 00:24:04.839
to put that. in the poison site because they

00:24:04.839 --> 00:24:06.920
had helpers there that could have been doing

00:24:06.920 --> 00:24:09.740
it that we just needed to pin them to it. So

00:24:09.740 --> 00:24:12.759
when we found a few of these poison sites, we

00:24:12.759 --> 00:24:15.539
did the throw down kind of like we do with the

00:24:15.539 --> 00:24:18.079
wolf. We did that with a bald eagle. I took a

00:24:18.079 --> 00:24:21.119
bald eagle from my freezer that we had collected

00:24:21.119 --> 00:24:23.819
and I also had a pelican band and I took the

00:24:23.819 --> 00:24:26.259
pelican band off the pelican and put it on the

00:24:26.259 --> 00:24:28.940
eagle because we had heard rumors that they were

00:24:28.940 --> 00:24:31.099
collecting eagle bands from the eagles they had

00:24:31.099 --> 00:24:33.700
killed over the years. I thought if we ever get

00:24:33.700 --> 00:24:36.039
a chance to find the eagle bands, I want this

00:24:36.039 --> 00:24:38.920
one to be unique to that. Like, this was ours.

00:24:39.319 --> 00:24:42.759
So we weren't using that eagle or that wolf to

00:24:42.759 --> 00:24:45.960
charge them with a crime. They were just to establish

00:24:45.960 --> 00:24:48.960
credibility or to show, like, where did this

00:24:48.960 --> 00:24:51.400
animal go after they recovered it? Or what did

00:24:51.400 --> 00:24:53.940
they do with it? Yeah, you're doing that last

00:24:53.940 --> 00:24:55.720
element where you got to connect the suspect

00:24:55.720 --> 00:24:59.240
to the crime scene. Correct. So the way we did

00:24:59.240 --> 00:25:03.140
that is we found a poison bait site and we set

00:25:03.140 --> 00:25:06.460
this eagle as if the eagle had fed on the bait

00:25:06.460 --> 00:25:09.259
and died there. And it had been hit by a car,

00:25:09.319 --> 00:25:12.339
I think. And we were using this car to kill the

00:25:12.339 --> 00:25:16.200
eagle with a pelican band on it. And we set it

00:25:16.200 --> 00:25:17.980
in front of the bait site, but then we set up

00:25:17.980 --> 00:25:21.599
a surveillance camera so we could watch it. And

00:25:21.599 --> 00:25:25.630
sadly, the sun... in his 40s came out there with

00:25:25.630 --> 00:25:28.950
his 10 -year -old boy at the time. And they saw

00:25:28.950 --> 00:25:32.029
the eagle, picked it up. We had no audio in those

00:25:32.029 --> 00:25:33.670
days. And we were just holding up the eagle,

00:25:33.829 --> 00:25:36.509
showing his kid this eagle. And then they went

00:25:36.509 --> 00:25:38.890
off camera with the eagle. We recovered it later.

00:25:39.250 --> 00:25:41.650
They tossed it in the woods away from the bait

00:25:41.650 --> 00:25:44.309
site to get it out of plain view where the bait

00:25:44.309 --> 00:25:46.670
site was at, just kind of cleaning up the dead

00:25:46.670 --> 00:25:49.890
animals. So we put the son at the crime scene.

00:25:49.890 --> 00:25:52.529
He was out inspecting and teaching. So you have

00:25:52.529 --> 00:25:55.619
the father. He's one generation, his son, the

00:25:55.619 --> 00:25:57.680
guy picking up the eagles, the next generation.

00:25:57.779 --> 00:25:59.359
And then we got the 10 year old boy learning

00:25:59.359 --> 00:26:03.440
the tricks of the trade to erase their landscape

00:26:03.440 --> 00:26:05.839
of predators. Unbelievable. Which is a sad story

00:26:05.839 --> 00:26:09.940
in and of itself. That is a sad story. Yeah.

00:26:10.279 --> 00:26:14.059
So with that said, the covert investigation.

00:26:15.240 --> 00:26:18.119
got us the emissions, got us more details of

00:26:18.119 --> 00:26:20.680
where to find the poison, and now we put them

00:26:20.680 --> 00:26:23.200
in the crime scene. So now it was search warrant

00:26:23.200 --> 00:26:31.559
time. So we had, we still, this was, so much

00:26:31.559 --> 00:26:34.359
was talked about in wolves between the farmer

00:26:34.359 --> 00:26:37.259
and our undercover guy, but we had not found

00:26:37.259 --> 00:26:39.690
one dead wolf at this point. OK, that was going

00:26:39.690 --> 00:26:41.589
to be my next question is, where's the wolf come

00:26:41.589 --> 00:26:45.130
in here? Right. So they talked about how they

00:26:45.130 --> 00:26:47.369
had killed wolves, and who had killed them, and

00:26:47.369 --> 00:26:48.910
what they did with them. They buried them on

00:26:48.910 --> 00:26:51.809
the farm. So we knew wolf killing was going on.

00:26:52.349 --> 00:26:54.549
Interestingly, when we went back in the records,

00:26:54.710 --> 00:26:58.809
there was a wolf pack in 1998 that lived in and

00:26:58.809 --> 00:27:01.549
around this potato farm. And they just mysteriously,

00:27:01.609 --> 00:27:04.369
the whole pack disappeared. and we had no idea

00:27:04.369 --> 00:27:06.950
how that happened. So we're thinking we'll find

00:27:06.950 --> 00:27:10.970
a wolf if they're actually on the property, but

00:27:10.970 --> 00:27:12.789
there's still, remember these are threatened

00:27:12.789 --> 00:27:14.569
and endangered. There's not a lot of them. And

00:27:14.569 --> 00:27:18.289
then if the whole pack disappears in 1998, there's

00:27:18.289 --> 00:27:22.309
not a lot of wolf victims. So anyhow, so we...

00:27:22.349 --> 00:27:24.990
Got search warrants. We ended up with seven search

00:27:24.990 --> 00:27:27.849
warrants to execute at the father and the son's

00:27:27.849 --> 00:27:30.569
residences Outbuildings and then the property

00:27:30.569 --> 00:27:33.089
itself, even though we had open fields we could

00:27:33.089 --> 00:27:36.009
use we still Got an additional search warrant.

00:27:36.009 --> 00:27:39.569
We had it up getting 60 officers for the takedown

00:27:39.569 --> 00:27:42.990
Wow and they came from the Environmental Protection

00:27:42.990 --> 00:27:45.430
Agency, the Wisconsin DNR and Fish and Wildlife

00:27:45.430 --> 00:27:47.950
Service. So we all, and I think there were some

00:27:47.950 --> 00:27:50.289
from state parks, I mean, we needed all the help

00:27:50.289 --> 00:27:52.230
we could because we're gonna be in the field.

00:27:53.170 --> 00:27:55.509
I'm glad EPA was involved because they sent out

00:27:55.509 --> 00:27:58.809
a super fun like cleanup team that they contracted

00:27:58.809 --> 00:28:01.289
with to handle all of the poisons. Cause they

00:28:01.289 --> 00:28:03.529
knew we were gonna find these chemicals either

00:28:03.529 --> 00:28:05.910
in the buildings or especially in the field.

00:28:05.950 --> 00:28:08.390
Cause we already had evidence of that. So we

00:28:08.390 --> 00:28:11.549
had a super fun team. do the handling and we

00:28:11.549 --> 00:28:14.049
did the crime scene without having to touch anything.

00:28:14.529 --> 00:28:17.470
Awesome, huge relief. Yeah, it was really helpful.

00:28:18.210 --> 00:28:22.250
So we did the raid, interviewed anybody associated

00:28:22.250 --> 00:28:24.250
with the farm hunters, people that they give

00:28:24.250 --> 00:28:26.690
permission to, people who got named for killing

00:28:26.690 --> 00:28:29.809
wolves and we rounded up everybody on take down

00:28:29.809 --> 00:28:34.529
day. And at the end of the day, we found a total

00:28:34.529 --> 00:28:37.849
of 14 bait sites, including the 10 we knew about.

00:28:37.849 --> 00:28:40.829
So we had four additional ones. And at the end

00:28:40.829 --> 00:28:45.710
of the tally was over 75 animals were found in

00:28:45.710 --> 00:28:48.769
total on these points. And none of them were

00:28:48.769 --> 00:28:52.829
wolves. We had seven eagles. And I don't know

00:28:52.829 --> 00:28:57.329
if your viewers know this, but one eagle is a

00:28:57.329 --> 00:29:01.539
misdemeanor. two eagles is a felony. We didn't

00:29:01.539 --> 00:29:05.980
know about the other five. I know people will

00:29:05.980 --> 00:29:07.900
always ask this, like, what took you so long

00:29:07.900 --> 00:29:10.480
to go out there and clean this up? But the hardest

00:29:10.480 --> 00:29:14.240
part is putting those elements together. At times

00:29:14.240 --> 00:29:16.839
we collected the poison bait to get it off the

00:29:16.839 --> 00:29:18.740
landscape, but they would just replace it with

00:29:18.740 --> 00:29:21.380
more. They just assumed some animal drug it off.

00:29:21.680 --> 00:29:24.019
There's some horrific things that you see there.

00:29:24.539 --> 00:29:27.380
When you find a dead animal, that's been poisoned,

00:29:27.759 --> 00:29:31.279
they die a horrible death. They throw up and

00:29:31.279 --> 00:29:34.960
they defecate out, it comes out both ends. And

00:29:34.960 --> 00:29:37.700
the worst, I'm still haunted by this. I know

00:29:37.700 --> 00:29:40.599
a lot of people hate coyotes for the same reason

00:29:40.599 --> 00:29:43.059
they hate wolves. And we can talk about that

00:29:43.059 --> 00:29:45.740
later. But the hard part, Ed, was when I found

00:29:45.740 --> 00:29:47.839
a bait site when I was on one of the field teams

00:29:47.839 --> 00:29:51.259
before the take down, I found a coyote that was

00:29:51.259 --> 00:29:55.170
still half alive, half dead. and you know coyotes

00:29:55.170 --> 00:29:58.049
are pretty cagey they see you they're gone this

00:29:58.049 --> 00:30:00.190
coyote had jumped over a log it scared me because

00:30:00.190 --> 00:30:01.730
it was on the other side of the log i jumped

00:30:01.730 --> 00:30:03.690
over and was just laying there it kind of flinched

00:30:03.690 --> 00:30:06.150
a little but you know its eyes were like when

00:30:06.150 --> 00:30:09.170
your dog's sick you know and this thing just

00:30:09.170 --> 00:30:11.269
couldn't get up even and we had to we ended up

00:30:11.269 --> 00:30:14.269
having to dispatch it to put out of its misery

00:30:14.269 --> 00:30:17.710
and then we sent it off to the lab and it had

00:30:17.710 --> 00:30:20.109
a bunch of beaver beaver was like a good bait

00:30:20.109 --> 00:30:23.980
that they used a skin beaver and the beaver was

00:30:23.980 --> 00:30:26.420
laced with carbofuran, and he had ingested a

00:30:26.420 --> 00:30:30.059
whole stomach full of beaver. So it's just hard

00:30:30.059 --> 00:30:32.519
to watch these animals die, regardless of what

00:30:32.519 --> 00:30:34.740
they are or what people's value are from that.

00:30:34.740 --> 00:30:37.859
Yeah, when you see a sentient being suffering,

00:30:39.460 --> 00:30:42.420
nobody should take any pleasure in that, that's

00:30:42.420 --> 00:30:45.519
for sure. You would think. You'd think, but there

00:30:45.519 --> 00:30:47.079
are a lot of people that do, particularly with

00:30:47.079 --> 00:30:49.220
predators, that the more they suffer, the more.

00:30:49.769 --> 00:30:52.130
glee these people get out of it, which I find

00:30:52.130 --> 00:30:54.849
particularly kind of important. Yeah. And it

00:30:54.849 --> 00:30:57.670
doesn't play well to most juries either. No,

00:30:57.670 --> 00:31:01.569
no, it doesn't. That's true. That's true. And

00:31:01.569 --> 00:31:06.329
the worst thing about a poisoning case, targeting

00:31:06.329 --> 00:31:09.660
predators. They don't care what they kill. Right.

00:31:09.759 --> 00:31:12.160
That's probably the most infuriating thing about

00:31:12.160 --> 00:31:14.980
these individuals who think poisoning is a good

00:31:14.980 --> 00:31:18.000
idea. I'm going to get rid of this particular

00:31:18.000 --> 00:31:21.240
predator to make a deer hunting mecca for myself.

00:31:21.339 --> 00:31:24.000
And then they end up killing so many other animals

00:31:24.000 --> 00:31:26.539
in the forest. Blue jays, black cat chickadees,

00:31:26.720 --> 00:31:31.660
night hatches, skunks, weasels, you know, bobcats.

00:31:31.720 --> 00:31:34.920
And as far as this family was concerned, the

00:31:34.920 --> 00:31:37.920
best predator was a dead one. and but everything

00:31:37.920 --> 00:31:41.299
else that was victim of their poisoning nothing

00:31:41.299 --> 00:31:43.759
deserved to be poisoned like that and they killed

00:31:43.759 --> 00:31:46.920
so much without even even knowing it so on the

00:31:46.920 --> 00:31:50.160
takedown um we didn't we still did not find a

00:31:50.160 --> 00:31:53.259
wolf but we found a black bear and they had poisoned

00:31:53.259 --> 00:31:56.740
the black bear and they'd kill and during uh

00:31:56.740 --> 00:31:58.640
interviews with them you know they estimated

00:31:58.640 --> 00:32:01.160
that they at one time during the undercover thing

00:32:01.160 --> 00:32:03.680
the the farmer bragged he killed over 80 wolves

00:32:03.680 --> 00:32:07.890
i found that When we did, uh, after we ended

00:32:07.890 --> 00:32:11.210
up rounding them up and charging them, we did

00:32:11.210 --> 00:32:13.769
a proffer and they told me and he, they admitted

00:32:13.769 --> 00:32:16.630
they killed at least five wolves. Okay. Still

00:32:16.630 --> 00:32:19.029
unable to find the carcasses cause it was over

00:32:19.029 --> 00:32:21.450
the span of like 10 years. So we didn't have

00:32:21.450 --> 00:32:24.849
any tangible proof, but so much of what motivated

00:32:24.849 --> 00:32:27.710
this poisoning case was the demise of wolves

00:32:27.710 --> 00:32:31.450
and everything other than a wolf bought the farm,

00:32:31.549 --> 00:32:33.690
if you will. Yeah. It was collateral damage,

00:32:33.690 --> 00:32:37.130
right? lateral damage. So what they ended up

00:32:37.130 --> 00:32:41.130
getting charged with was felonies under the Eagle

00:32:41.130 --> 00:32:46.970
Protection Act. Nice, okay. And they added the

00:32:46.970 --> 00:32:51.329
misuse of pesticides as part of it and they ended

00:32:51.329 --> 00:32:55.599
up entering to a plea agreement. And the plea

00:32:55.599 --> 00:32:59.140
was for the father. He ended up with a misdemeanor

00:32:59.140 --> 00:33:02.259
Eagle Act conviction. He was 74 years old at

00:33:02.259 --> 00:33:06.500
the time. Right. He had to pay $100 ,000 in restitution.

00:33:06.519 --> 00:33:10.180
That's good. $30 ,000 in fines. And then he lost

00:33:10.180 --> 00:33:12.599
his hunting, fishing, and trapping privileges

00:33:12.599 --> 00:33:14.900
for seven years. Nice. OK. He was placed on a

00:33:14.900 --> 00:33:19.630
one -year probation. The son a similar sentence

00:33:19.630 --> 00:33:22.730
for him. He pled to a misdemeanor Eagle Act violation

00:33:22.730 --> 00:33:27.349
as well hundred thousand dollars for him Ten

00:33:27.349 --> 00:33:29.890
thousand dollars in fines. He got revoked for

00:33:29.890 --> 00:33:32.910
five years Hunting fishing and trapping and a

00:33:32.910 --> 00:33:35.970
one -year probation. The reason his was a little

00:33:35.970 --> 00:33:40.630
less he wasn't the father was the driving force

00:33:40.630 --> 00:33:43.779
behind it right and then the son was just kind

00:33:43.779 --> 00:33:46.119
of doing his dad's bidding at his dad's direction

00:33:46.119 --> 00:33:48.680
mostly. And that's what they maintained throughout

00:33:48.680 --> 00:33:50.880
the prosecution. So they ended up leading to

00:33:50.880 --> 00:33:54.200
it. But that whole investigation centered on

00:33:54.200 --> 00:33:56.640
the killing of wolves. That's what started it.

00:33:56.680 --> 00:34:01.500
OK, so those are good monetary penalties. That's

00:34:01.500 --> 00:34:06.240
for sure. Those are huge. So how did this case

00:34:06.240 --> 00:34:08.940
inform you kind of moving forward on future wolf

00:34:08.940 --> 00:34:13.579
investigations? Well, the mindset of people um,

00:34:13.980 --> 00:34:17.500
that don't like wolves and it's no secret there's

00:34:17.500 --> 00:34:21.380
pro wolf groups and there's, you know, anti -wolf

00:34:21.380 --> 00:34:24.460
groups out there. And the job of the fish and

00:34:24.460 --> 00:34:27.079
wildlife service was to try and balance, you

00:34:27.079 --> 00:34:29.780
know, the interests of people and wolves. That's

00:34:29.780 --> 00:34:33.500
what makes them so controversial. Right. Being

00:34:33.500 --> 00:34:36.280
in and around the recordings and the statements

00:34:36.280 --> 00:34:39.380
of these people, the interviews, it gives you

00:34:39.380 --> 00:34:42.440
a glimpse into the mindset of wolf haters. Yeah.

00:34:42.619 --> 00:34:47.900
And so much of it is based in, there was a, I

00:34:47.900 --> 00:34:50.880
had a saying in Wisconsin, everybody was a wildlife

00:34:50.880 --> 00:34:54.219
management expert within 200 yards of their deer

00:34:54.219 --> 00:34:57.579
stand. And some of them stretched it out to 200

00:34:57.579 --> 00:35:00.750
miles. I always thought, like, you know, I don't

00:35:00.750 --> 00:35:02.829
go into my dentist office and tell them how to

00:35:02.829 --> 00:35:05.730
fill my cavity. Why is this guy who's a mechanic

00:35:05.730 --> 00:35:08.190
telling me how to manage a wolf herd? You know,

00:35:08.250 --> 00:35:10.710
because he wants better deer hunting. It could

00:35:10.710 --> 00:35:13.730
be really frustrating. So I got to understand

00:35:13.730 --> 00:35:18.190
the wolf mindset and mentality there. Yeah. Because,

00:35:18.469 --> 00:35:21.610
well, Aldo Leopold said it best in Thinking Like

00:35:21.610 --> 00:35:23.670
a Mountain. If any of your readers want to read

00:35:23.670 --> 00:35:25.889
a good essay about wolves, there's a great essay.

00:35:26.469 --> 00:35:30.320
You know, He thought in the days of his early

00:35:30.320 --> 00:35:32.360
forest service career that killing the wolves

00:35:32.360 --> 00:35:36.320
meant more deer and at hunter's mecca. And he

00:35:36.320 --> 00:35:39.079
found out that wolves played a bigger role in

00:35:39.079 --> 00:35:41.320
the ecosystem than he understood it in those

00:35:41.320 --> 00:35:45.039
days. Great lesson there. Yeah, Aldo Leopold

00:35:45.039 --> 00:35:47.579
is a great lesson because I think wolf haters

00:35:47.579 --> 00:35:52.239
would characterize him as kind of like the prototypical

00:35:52.239 --> 00:35:55.579
environmentalist that their knee -jerk reaction

00:35:55.579 --> 00:35:59.170
would be crazy. left winger, we don't like him.

00:35:59.869 --> 00:36:03.030
But in reality, Aldo Leopold's early life was

00:36:03.030 --> 00:36:05.650
spent killing wolves. I mean, that was his job,

00:36:05.650 --> 00:36:08.630
and he believed in it. And he changed his opinion

00:36:08.630 --> 00:36:12.090
on that, which is kind of something that everybody

00:36:12.090 --> 00:36:14.670
should maybe pay attention to because he was

00:36:14.670 --> 00:36:17.349
a trained environmentalist biologist who was

00:36:17.349 --> 00:36:21.969
a ranger. And there was some, it hurts me to

00:36:21.969 --> 00:36:24.929
say this, but I worked with some people. who

00:36:24.929 --> 00:36:27.849
felt the same way these farmers felt about wolves.

00:36:27.969 --> 00:36:30.650
And they were game wardens and conservationists

00:36:30.650 --> 00:36:34.429
or claimed to be. A lot of the hunting public

00:36:34.429 --> 00:36:37.409
did not like wolves. And I just, I had a hard

00:36:37.409 --> 00:36:40.050
time understanding that as a fellow hunter. I

00:36:40.050 --> 00:36:42.889
don't understand the hunting public's attitude

00:36:42.889 --> 00:36:45.650
towards not valuing wolves more. That always

00:36:45.650 --> 00:36:47.429
reflects me. And I got to see that firsthand

00:36:47.429 --> 00:36:50.329
in this poisoning investigation. Tell me about

00:36:50.329 --> 00:36:53.769
this next case then that's involved. A little

00:36:53.769 --> 00:36:58.309
less verbose on this one. That's okay. I received

00:36:58.309 --> 00:37:02.489
a phone call from the Ontario Ministry of Natural

00:37:02.489 --> 00:37:05.110
Resources. And where were you then? This is when

00:37:05.110 --> 00:37:06.829
you were? I was still in Wisconsin. You're still

00:37:06.829 --> 00:37:11.760
in Wisconsin. Okay. Yeah. they had information

00:37:11.760 --> 00:37:15.940
that several residents of Wisconsin, um, had

00:37:15.940 --> 00:37:18.099
killed several wolves and brought them back to

00:37:18.099 --> 00:37:21.860
the U S and killed them in Canada, killed them

00:37:21.860 --> 00:37:25.599
in Canada. So the long and short of that one

00:37:25.599 --> 00:37:29.260
was, um, these U S citizens were killing wolves

00:37:29.260 --> 00:37:32.099
in Canada and they only knew of two at the time

00:37:32.099 --> 00:37:34.380
and they wanted me to interview them. One of

00:37:34.380 --> 00:37:38.730
them was the son of a guy who took over a lodge

00:37:38.730 --> 00:37:40.670
up there, it was called the Andy Meyers Lodge.

00:37:42.090 --> 00:37:45.789
And the owners at the time, I can say their names,

00:37:45.829 --> 00:37:49.210
these folks were convicted, right? So his father

00:37:49.210 --> 00:37:52.269
and son were the Herbecks, Steve and Danny Herbeck.

00:37:52.789 --> 00:37:55.670
And Danny had killed a wolf and it looked like,

00:37:55.690 --> 00:37:58.210
according to Ontario, a client of his who was

00:37:58.210 --> 00:38:00.670
a friend of his named Chris Fetterman had shot

00:38:00.670 --> 00:38:02.989
a wolf, posed with it, and then brought them

00:38:02.989 --> 00:38:07.079
back to the U .S. And they didn't have any wolf

00:38:07.079 --> 00:38:10.780
tags, but they were given their wolves. And then

00:38:10.780 --> 00:38:14.960
they got export permits from Canada, import export

00:38:14.960 --> 00:38:17.059
permits to bring them across the Canadian -U

00:38:17.059 --> 00:38:20.739
.S. border back into the states. And the paperwork

00:38:20.739 --> 00:38:23.139
said that they were gifts from Canadian residents.

00:38:24.559 --> 00:38:27.639
The logic behind this is, okay, a non -resident

00:38:27.639 --> 00:38:30.360
is going to pay upwards of $300 for a wolf tag

00:38:30.360 --> 00:38:32.860
and a resident is only going to pay 10 bucks.

00:38:33.900 --> 00:38:36.820
So, you know, and chances of seeing a wolf while

00:38:36.820 --> 00:38:40.199
you're hunting up there are pretty slim. So shoot

00:38:40.199 --> 00:38:43.099
one first and then get a tag afterwards was kind

00:38:43.099 --> 00:38:46.280
of what the conservation officer, his name was

00:38:46.280 --> 00:38:48.679
Rob Winter. He's a good egg. And he had called

00:38:48.679 --> 00:38:51.539
me up and he had this case he wanted help with.

00:38:51.840 --> 00:38:54.019
And he asked if I could interview these people.

00:38:54.960 --> 00:38:57.920
And so I called the, uh, where these guys live

00:38:57.920 --> 00:39:00.860
down by Madison, Wisconsin. I called a state,

00:39:00.860 --> 00:39:04.500
uh, Wisconsin officer there, Joe Frost. And Joe

00:39:04.500 --> 00:39:07.800
had told me that he had had dealings with this

00:39:07.800 --> 00:39:10.340
family and this Chris Fetterman and the Herbacks.

00:39:10.519 --> 00:39:12.559
And he said, they ain't going to talk to you.

00:39:12.559 --> 00:39:14.699
And he goes, they've been caught before they've

00:39:14.699 --> 00:39:16.159
been through the ring or that you're not going

00:39:16.159 --> 00:39:18.820
to get anywhere. And I always took look at that

00:39:18.820 --> 00:39:23.010
as a challenge, but of course. So before I interviewed,

00:39:23.070 --> 00:39:24.769
I tried to do a little background, and I found

00:39:24.769 --> 00:39:28.329
out that they go to an All Canada show over in

00:39:28.329 --> 00:39:30.469
Green Bay, which was where I was stationed. An

00:39:30.469 --> 00:39:32.550
All Canada show is all these hunting and fishing

00:39:32.550 --> 00:39:35.710
guides show up by a facility near Lambeau Field

00:39:35.710 --> 00:39:37.969
where the Packers play, and they put up these

00:39:37.969 --> 00:39:39.710
booths and they advertise hunts. So I thought,

00:39:39.789 --> 00:39:41.670
I'll just go in and see if I could talk to one

00:39:41.670 --> 00:39:44.960
of these guys as an undercover guy. looking to

00:39:44.960 --> 00:39:48.539
go on a hunt. So that was my tactic. And as fate

00:39:48.539 --> 00:39:50.659
would have it, I went there and Danny Herbeck,

00:39:50.659 --> 00:39:53.300
the son, was there at the booth manning it. And

00:39:53.300 --> 00:39:55.119
I came up to the booth. They had a big banner,

00:39:55.320 --> 00:39:59.059
Annie Myers Lodge. Long story short, he's talking

00:39:59.059 --> 00:40:00.659
to a couple of hunters there and I'm listening

00:40:00.659 --> 00:40:03.739
in. He's talking about wolves. And so my end

00:40:03.739 --> 00:40:06.000
with him was I wanted to go on a, I was interested

00:40:06.000 --> 00:40:08.420
in a hunt fishing trip with him up in Canada.

00:40:08.889 --> 00:40:11.469
And I've never done one of those. And I always

00:40:11.469 --> 00:40:13.690
wanted to go. I told him, I went on a caribou

00:40:13.690 --> 00:40:15.809
hunt in Alaska because I was stationed there.

00:40:15.809 --> 00:40:18.670
Right. And I tried to kill a wolf there, but

00:40:18.670 --> 00:40:20.949
I never saw one and never came to my caribou

00:40:20.949 --> 00:40:23.190
gut pile. I told him, he goes, and I just made

00:40:23.190 --> 00:40:26.230
the tip of, because of the Swinski case, the

00:40:26.230 --> 00:40:29.670
farmer case, I thought, you know, I'm going to

00:40:29.670 --> 00:40:31.849
hate wolves just like everybody else. So I use

00:40:31.849 --> 00:40:35.880
that as my persona. Hate them goddamn things.

00:40:36.000 --> 00:40:37.820
You know, I tried to kill one in Alaska I'd like

00:40:37.820 --> 00:40:40.199
to kill one here in Wisconsin and that opened

00:40:40.199 --> 00:40:42.579
the door and the floodgates open with this guy

00:40:42.579 --> 00:40:45.719
and he told me Between you and I don't tell anybody

00:40:45.719 --> 00:40:47.659
but if you want to come home with us and you

00:40:47.659 --> 00:40:49.619
kill the wolf, you know We'll take care of it.

00:40:49.699 --> 00:40:51.659
Don't buy a tag until you kill it. He told me

00:40:51.659 --> 00:40:54.659
what their MO was I killed a couple wolves balls

00:40:54.659 --> 00:40:56.980
up there I go and ask what he did with them.

00:40:57.079 --> 00:40:58.679
He brought them back to the state. So I kind

00:40:58.679 --> 00:41:01.440
of knew that he had done this. And then he told

00:41:01.440 --> 00:41:03.780
me how they do it and how many wolves they're

00:41:03.780 --> 00:41:06.780
killing, all the other animals and fishing opportunities.

00:41:07.219 --> 00:41:09.760
So I just wrote this up as a report, sent it

00:41:09.760 --> 00:41:12.940
to the Canadians, and they're like, Okay, this

00:41:12.940 --> 00:41:15.280
is too good to pass up. Do you guys want to help

00:41:15.280 --> 00:41:18.360
us with an undercover operation? Nice. So we

00:41:18.360 --> 00:41:21.940
set up an agreement between the US and the province

00:41:21.940 --> 00:41:25.320
of Ontario and we developed this undercover project.

00:41:25.760 --> 00:41:27.820
And I would just go, they asked if I would do

00:41:27.820 --> 00:41:31.119
the undercover work. So I and another agent booked

00:41:31.119 --> 00:41:33.960
a hunt with Andy Myers to go on a cast and blast.

00:41:34.320 --> 00:41:36.179
They didn't want us to go wolf hunting right

00:41:36.179 --> 00:41:38.300
away. They want us to build up the rapport. So

00:41:38.300 --> 00:41:41.469
we went one year. We hunted waterfowl and we

00:41:41.469 --> 00:41:44.530
went fishing and we hunted grouse and we did

00:41:44.530 --> 00:41:48.289
nothing legal. That's what you call a cast and

00:41:48.289 --> 00:41:50.630
blast where you're fishing and shooting and hunting,

00:41:51.050 --> 00:41:54.429
right? Correct. Got it. Got it. OK. Go on a hunting

00:41:54.429 --> 00:41:59.630
trip and then go fishing. Eagle Lake up there

00:41:59.630 --> 00:42:01.909
in Ontario is where we went. It's a beautiful

00:42:01.909 --> 00:42:05.150
rustic lodge. Andy Myers, he started that lodge

00:42:05.150 --> 00:42:08.630
way back in the day. It sold chance for hands.

00:42:08.650 --> 00:42:10.409
And that's how the Hurbecks ended up with it.

00:42:10.409 --> 00:42:12.130
It's a legendary lodge. It was like one of the

00:42:12.130 --> 00:42:14.409
first ones in like 1910 or something, if I remember

00:42:14.409 --> 00:42:17.710
right. But it's a beautiful place. So you're

00:42:17.710 --> 00:42:20.690
up there and nothing legal is happening up in

00:42:20.690 --> 00:42:24.250
a. So in other words, they're violating Canadian

00:42:24.250 --> 00:42:30.349
hunting laws, right? Yes. We were shooting. One

00:42:30.349 --> 00:42:32.670
year there was three of them. There was Danny

00:42:32.670 --> 00:42:35.599
Hurbeck. And Fetterman and another guy named

00:42:35.599 --> 00:42:37.880
Travis Rundee, they were high school friends

00:42:37.880 --> 00:42:42.579
or something from Wisconsin. Fetterman and Purbeck

00:42:42.579 --> 00:42:45.800
were guides for the business. And then their

00:42:45.800 --> 00:42:48.380
friend came up. So here we booked this undercover

00:42:48.380 --> 00:42:50.599
hunt with them, me and the other agent. We're

00:42:50.599 --> 00:42:53.139
paying clients, and these guys are guiding, but

00:42:53.139 --> 00:42:55.719
they're hunting with us. So we decided on one

00:42:55.719 --> 00:42:58.119
of our hunts not to shoot anything, to miss.

00:42:58.539 --> 00:43:01.440
And they shot all of our geese. And we didn't

00:43:01.440 --> 00:43:03.949
hit a one. And then the next day they let us

00:43:03.949 --> 00:43:05.710
shoot a bunch of theirs, you know, like they,

00:43:05.710 --> 00:43:08.289
they felt like game hogs, I guess. So we were,

00:43:08.429 --> 00:43:11.090
there was just this mixing of limits and we killed

00:43:11.090 --> 00:43:13.630
an excess of the limit. And then when we get

00:43:13.630 --> 00:43:15.510
back to the lodge, we went out grouse hunting

00:43:15.510 --> 00:43:17.869
and we're shooting from vehicles and anything

00:43:17.869 --> 00:43:20.369
they said went, they were drinking and driving

00:43:20.369 --> 00:43:22.869
and shooting stuff off the road. And this is

00:43:22.869 --> 00:43:24.789
like, these are supposed to be professional guides

00:43:24.789 --> 00:43:27.329
here. They're just pillaging the resource for

00:43:27.329 --> 00:43:28.909
money and breaking the laws while they're doing

00:43:28.909 --> 00:43:32.570
it. Yeah, you've got the in now. You've established

00:43:32.570 --> 00:43:34.130
that they're willing to break the law in front

00:43:34.130 --> 00:43:36.510
of you. And because they're Americans traveling

00:43:36.510 --> 00:43:39.090
up there, they're committing Lacey Act violations

00:43:39.090 --> 00:43:43.190
if they bring any game back. And then falsifying

00:43:43.190 --> 00:43:46.230
documents. And falsifying documents, import violations,

00:43:46.429 --> 00:43:49.989
which is smuggling, exactly. Who had her foot

00:43:49.989 --> 00:43:52.409
in the door? Yeah, yeah. And that leads you then

00:43:52.409 --> 00:43:56.849
to a wolf hunt, huh? Yes, and then it's so they

00:43:56.849 --> 00:44:00.269
trusted us. did things wrong with them and everybody

00:44:00.269 --> 00:44:03.909
was cool with that. So the next year we went

00:44:03.909 --> 00:44:08.030
up on a deer hunt slash wolf hunt. And this is

00:44:08.030 --> 00:44:10.590
where things got interesting. So the Canadians

00:44:10.590 --> 00:44:14.269
wanted us to shoot a wolf if we saw one. So we

00:44:14.269 --> 00:44:17.079
hunted like... three days and didn't hear or

00:44:17.079 --> 00:44:19.039
see a wolf. It's pretty hard to do. Yeah, it

00:44:19.039 --> 00:44:22.559
is hard to do. To see one in the wild. Some people

00:44:22.559 --> 00:44:25.860
say they're everywhere. It's not easy. So they

00:44:25.860 --> 00:44:28.079
gave us calls to try and call a wolf in. They

00:44:28.079 --> 00:44:30.559
wanted us to kill a wolf just to see what the

00:44:30.559 --> 00:44:34.960
herbex would do with it. So by the fourth day,

00:44:35.139 --> 00:44:39.599
we had a meeting and I said, because of the farmer

00:44:39.599 --> 00:44:42.360
poisoning case, I said, you guys got any throw

00:44:42.360 --> 00:44:45.440
down wolves we could use? And they're like, yeah,

00:44:45.519 --> 00:44:47.699
we do. We just got one here this year. There's

00:44:47.699 --> 00:44:50.760
a mangy female that someone had shot with a 12

00:44:50.760 --> 00:44:53.320
gauge shotgun in the neck and blew a big hole

00:44:53.320 --> 00:44:57.199
in it. So the Canadian officers had this in their

00:44:57.199 --> 00:44:59.460
freezer. They're going to give it to you as a

00:44:59.460 --> 00:45:01.780
throw down, which you can put down and then claim

00:45:01.780 --> 00:45:05.599
to your targets that you killed it. Correct.

00:45:05.599 --> 00:45:07.179
Is that right? OK. And then you're going to see

00:45:07.179 --> 00:45:09.039
what their reaction is. OK, got it. That's the

00:45:09.039 --> 00:45:11.440
perfect definition of a throw down. Yeah, yeah.

00:45:11.440 --> 00:45:13.440
I just make sure my listeners understand what

00:45:13.440 --> 00:45:15.179
we're talking about. I got where you were going.

00:45:15.840 --> 00:45:18.800
But yeah. And so the other thing is, so listeners,

00:45:18.840 --> 00:45:21.239
this is a common law enforcement technique. And

00:45:21.239 --> 00:45:24.739
it's not to frame the people for anything related

00:45:24.739 --> 00:45:28.739
to that dead wolf you got from Canadian law enforcement

00:45:28.739 --> 00:45:32.360
officer's freezer. It's basically to demonstrate

00:45:32.360 --> 00:45:37.070
what they do with it after. after you as an undercover

00:45:37.070 --> 00:45:39.110
officer claim that you killed it. And this is

00:45:39.110 --> 00:45:42.510
something I did during my career. You get a roadkill

00:45:42.510 --> 00:45:45.949
animal and you claim you killed it to build credibility

00:45:45.949 --> 00:45:50.030
or to just push it along to show the culpability

00:45:50.030 --> 00:45:52.190
and what the bad guys are going to do once they

00:45:52.190 --> 00:45:54.889
think you've actually violated the law. Right.

00:45:54.969 --> 00:45:56.750
And a lot of people would think, oh, that was

00:45:56.750 --> 00:45:58.389
like an entrapment. Yeah, it's not entrapment.

00:45:58.389 --> 00:46:00.630
In no way, shape, or form were we using that

00:46:00.630 --> 00:46:05.510
wolf to Developed charges or raise against the

00:46:05.510 --> 00:46:07.949
the suspects or the targets of the investigation

00:46:07.949 --> 00:46:10.469
Yeah, it was just to establish like you said

00:46:10.469 --> 00:46:12.849
credibility to make it look like we killed one

00:46:12.849 --> 00:46:15.469
exactly just to see where it went so we were

00:46:15.469 --> 00:46:17.510
running out of time to do the wolf killing so

00:46:17.510 --> 00:46:21.030
we got this throwdown wolf and Rob winter carry

00:46:21.030 --> 00:46:23.889
this thing in like two miles in a backpack He

00:46:23.889 --> 00:46:26.150
dumps it on the ground by my dear Stan and it

00:46:26.150 --> 00:46:29.059
looked terrible But he was a clever game warden,

00:46:29.079 --> 00:46:31.400
and he found a roadkill that morning, a deer.

00:46:31.920 --> 00:46:35.619
And he collected some fresh blood from that in

00:46:35.619 --> 00:46:39.000
a Coca -Cola bottle. So we could create, like,

00:46:39.139 --> 00:46:40.900
to make this wolf look like it was freshly killed.

00:46:40.920 --> 00:46:42.780
Because it had been frozen, and they had thawed

00:46:42.780 --> 00:46:46.139
it out the night before. And it was mangy, and

00:46:46.139 --> 00:46:48.500
the hole was like... The size of a softball from

00:46:48.500 --> 00:46:50.880
a 12 gauge slug, they said, and I'm shooting

00:46:50.880 --> 00:46:53.119
a small rifle. I got to make this look good.

00:46:53.500 --> 00:46:55.719
So I broke the tips off my bullets to say they

00:46:55.719 --> 00:46:57.559
were hollow points that were blowing up when

00:46:57.559 --> 00:46:59.940
they hit something. A hollow point bullet expands.

00:47:00.440 --> 00:47:02.539
That's the only thing I did. That was the longest

00:47:02.539 --> 00:47:04.880
day of my career. Cause he dumped that off about

00:47:04.880 --> 00:47:07.920
eight 30 in the morning. And Danny Herbeck was

00:47:07.920 --> 00:47:10.800
my guide and he was coming back around five o

00:47:10.800 --> 00:47:12.559
'clock in the evening when it got dark to pick

00:47:12.559 --> 00:47:15.670
me up. My eye just sat on that tree stand. I

00:47:15.670 --> 00:47:17.829
didn't see another deer once the wolf was dumped

00:47:17.829 --> 00:47:19.530
on the ground. The deer stopped coming around

00:47:19.530 --> 00:47:22.150
because they could smell the wolf. And I was

00:47:22.150 --> 00:47:23.909
just, you know, I was starting to get inside

00:47:23.909 --> 00:47:27.440
my own head. is this going to work? Right. The

00:47:27.440 --> 00:47:29.599
last thing Rob Winter said to me, he goes, are

00:47:29.599 --> 00:47:31.340
you okay with doing this? You sure you want to

00:47:31.340 --> 00:47:33.219
do this? I'm like, let's give it a try. I go,

00:47:33.280 --> 00:47:35.239
if it doesn't work and something happens to me,

00:47:35.280 --> 00:47:37.920
just tell my wife in case I love them. You know,

00:47:37.980 --> 00:47:41.780
don't say that. Don't say that, Steve. But then

00:47:41.780 --> 00:47:43.659
I thought about that the rest of the day. Like,

00:47:43.820 --> 00:47:47.559
do I really want to do this? And so I could hear

00:47:47.559 --> 00:47:49.719
Danny coming at five o 'clock. I could hear the

00:47:49.719 --> 00:47:52.139
ATV coming down the, through the woods and my

00:47:52.139 --> 00:47:54.940
heart's pounding. Like, So which actually worked

00:47:54.940 --> 00:47:57.099
to my advantage because I acted like a nervous

00:47:57.099 --> 00:48:01.199
hunter. And something I should emphasize when

00:48:01.199 --> 00:48:04.099
we got to that camp that year, they said you

00:48:04.099 --> 00:48:06.260
see a wolf, you kill it. We'll take care of it.

00:48:06.260 --> 00:48:08.699
We want all the wolves dead. We hate them here.

00:48:08.820 --> 00:48:11.159
They're wrecking our deer hunting. They emphasize

00:48:11.159 --> 00:48:13.320
that to the nth degree. So if you see one, shoot

00:48:13.320 --> 00:48:15.579
one. And everybody in camp, there are other hunters

00:48:15.579 --> 00:48:18.759
in camp. Every one of us got the same. briefing

00:48:18.759 --> 00:48:20.519
before we went out to your hunting. If you see

00:48:20.519 --> 00:48:23.119
a wolf kill it, we don't want him around. Okay.

00:48:23.300 --> 00:48:25.800
If you want it, you can get a tag later or we'll

00:48:25.800 --> 00:48:28.239
get you one. We'll take care of it. So we had

00:48:28.239 --> 00:48:30.639
the directive from the guides to tell us how

00:48:30.639 --> 00:48:33.699
to poach a wolf. Right. So we just thought we'd

00:48:33.699 --> 00:48:35.599
play along and show them we got a wolf and see

00:48:35.599 --> 00:48:38.940
where it went. Well, Danny shows up to pick me

00:48:38.940 --> 00:48:41.280
up. He goes, how'd it go today? I go, Ah, pretty

00:48:41.280 --> 00:48:45.260
bad. He goes, you see any big deer? I hardly

00:48:45.260 --> 00:48:47.539
saw any deer. I saw a wolf, though. He goes,

00:48:47.619 --> 00:48:49.719
did you kill that son of a bitch? And I'm like,

00:48:50.360 --> 00:48:53.019
I'm afraid to tell you. He's like, don't be.

00:48:53.179 --> 00:48:55.960
And so I tell him, I go, I'm afraid I'm going

00:48:55.960 --> 00:48:57.920
to get in trouble. He's like. He goes, did you

00:48:57.920 --> 00:49:00.300
kill it? I'm like, yeah. He goes, God damn good.

00:49:00.360 --> 00:49:02.960
Where's it at? I go, I hid it in the bushes over

00:49:02.960 --> 00:49:06.780
there. You know, we created a drag trade. So

00:49:06.780 --> 00:49:09.420
he goes over, there's dim light. He sees it.

00:49:09.420 --> 00:49:11.619
All right. That's the second wolf that got killed

00:49:11.619 --> 00:49:15.079
today. I'm in the fold now because I'm a wolf

00:49:15.079 --> 00:49:19.320
killer with my throw down wolf and I'm into the

00:49:19.320 --> 00:49:24.119
fold. Anyhow. to speed this along. Some guys

00:49:24.119 --> 00:49:26.840
hunting from New York, one of them had shot a

00:49:26.840 --> 00:49:33.449
wolf that same day. Then I was introduced to

00:49:33.449 --> 00:49:35.630
him and him and I were kindred souls now because

00:49:35.630 --> 00:49:38.030
and we were like getting pats on the back from

00:49:38.030 --> 00:49:40.630
all the other hunters in camp and you guys killed

00:49:40.630 --> 00:49:42.929
the wolf. And then I was starting to hear all

00:49:42.929 --> 00:49:45.269
the stories that we needed to hear about of who

00:49:45.269 --> 00:49:47.730
killed a wolf, who got a tag for so and so. They

00:49:47.730 --> 00:49:49.969
were telling us everything because we were the

00:49:49.969 --> 00:49:53.730
trusted group of wolf killers. Fast forward,

00:49:54.150 --> 00:49:58.000
this New York guy, his friend. owned a bar and

00:49:58.000 --> 00:50:00.079
he wanted to keep the wolf and get it back to

00:50:00.079 --> 00:50:03.400
the U .S. So we had to go buy tags after the

00:50:03.400 --> 00:50:06.440
fact. My wolf was so beat up that they didn't

00:50:06.440 --> 00:50:07.780
say, don't waste your time with it. We'll give

00:50:07.780 --> 00:50:09.920
you a better hide when you get back to the States.

00:50:10.219 --> 00:50:11.860
We're just gonna throw your wolf in a ditch.

00:50:12.300 --> 00:50:15.260
So they did. The New York guy killed a really

00:50:15.260 --> 00:50:18.639
nice big wolf and he was gonna get it. Then his

00:50:18.639 --> 00:50:20.199
friend, when he started to see how much it was

00:50:20.199 --> 00:50:22.239
costing for the permits and all that, he didn't

00:50:22.239 --> 00:50:25.880
want it. And the guy who shot it was really upset

00:50:25.880 --> 00:50:29.579
with Steve her back that the dad because he was

00:50:29.579 --> 00:50:31.679
telling everybody shoot a wolf and I've got a

00:50:31.679 --> 00:50:34.280
tag I'll give it to you and now he didn't want

00:50:34.280 --> 00:50:36.840
to give him his tag and now he's getting kind

00:50:36.840 --> 00:50:38.820
of annoyed because you told me to shoot a wolf

00:50:38.820 --> 00:50:40.539
I shoot one now you're telling me got a pay to

00:50:40.539 --> 00:50:42.619
go buy these permits and I got a lie that this

00:50:42.619 --> 00:50:45.400
Government about these forms and it was a it

00:50:45.400 --> 00:50:47.860
was a mess and he was really upset and by the

00:50:47.860 --> 00:50:51.019
time he went through the process You know in

00:50:51.019 --> 00:50:52.280
hearing about the process. He didn't want to

00:50:52.280 --> 00:50:56.269
do it. So the next day Um, he was supposed to

00:50:56.269 --> 00:50:59.190
go into the natural resource office to fill out

00:50:59.190 --> 00:51:02.769
the paperwork, to get a tag. So I quick got a

00:51:02.769 --> 00:51:06.269
deer that next morning, came back and I asked

00:51:06.269 --> 00:51:08.409
him if he wanted company. And he said, Oh, I'd

00:51:08.409 --> 00:51:10.590
love it. So I went with this guy from New York.

00:51:10.969 --> 00:51:13.550
We went into this, the office. I watched him

00:51:13.550 --> 00:51:16.030
lie about everything, fill out all the forms.

00:51:16.469 --> 00:51:18.929
And we're in Canada, in Canada, you can't record

00:51:18.929 --> 00:51:20.909
anybody. So you have to like watch and see it

00:51:20.909 --> 00:51:24.519
and then write it all down. Got it. We he's gonna

00:51:24.519 --> 00:51:26.639
go back and go tag his wolf and bring it back

00:51:26.639 --> 00:51:31.199
to the lodge. So I went with them and He was

00:51:31.199 --> 00:51:34.000
starting to get cold feet about taking it back

00:51:34.000 --> 00:51:35.260
now He's starting to get nervous even though

00:51:35.260 --> 00:51:38.179
he had a tag and he asked me if I'd be interested

00:51:38.179 --> 00:51:40.179
in it I said, yeah if you don't want if your

00:51:40.179 --> 00:51:42.719
friend doesn't want to let me know so I was able

00:51:42.719 --> 00:51:45.409
to get hidden with the wolf and a picture of

00:51:45.409 --> 00:51:48.070
him closing with the wolf. So I had, I didn't

00:51:48.070 --> 00:51:50.090
know where this was going to go. Long story short,

00:51:50.610 --> 00:51:52.650
the whole thing blew up between the New York

00:51:52.650 --> 00:51:56.070
guys and the Herbex and they didn't want the

00:51:56.070 --> 00:51:57.849
wolf anymore. And they asked me if I wanted it.

00:51:57.929 --> 00:52:01.130
So I paid the guy back for his licenses and then

00:52:01.130 --> 00:52:03.389
he went with me to the office the next morning

00:52:03.389 --> 00:52:06.309
to get an export permit and the state then the

00:52:06.309 --> 00:52:08.210
wardens, they're just videotaped. It's like a

00:52:08.210 --> 00:52:12.420
drug deal in the parking lot. Right. getting

00:52:12.420 --> 00:52:14.699
the paperwork, getting the wolf, and then we

00:52:14.699 --> 00:52:17.239
went our separate ways. And the Hurbecks gave

00:52:17.239 --> 00:52:19.699
us all this direction on how to beat the system

00:52:19.699 --> 00:52:22.079
at the border and all that. We had the paperwork

00:52:22.079 --> 00:52:23.579
in order and they said they'd been doing it for

00:52:23.579 --> 00:52:26.559
years. So we had the case. Now let's take downtime.

00:52:27.519 --> 00:52:30.079
So the Herbecks are in Wisconsin. They got their

00:52:30.079 --> 00:52:32.420
lodge in Canada. The Canadians handled search

00:52:32.420 --> 00:52:35.579
warrants up in Canada, Wisconsin, and the Fish

00:52:35.579 --> 00:52:38.139
and Wildlife Service. We got federal warrants

00:52:38.139 --> 00:52:40.480
there and we did a raid down there, interviewed

00:52:40.480 --> 00:52:42.940
dozens of clients that hunted wolves, killed

00:52:42.940 --> 00:52:46.639
animals, and it was a big raid. The unique part

00:52:46.639 --> 00:52:48.960
about all of that was the number of wolves that

00:52:48.960 --> 00:52:50.579
we ended up with. I think there was like seven

00:52:50.579 --> 00:52:52.539
or eight wolves that were able to track down

00:52:52.539 --> 00:52:55.079
that they had killed illegally in Canada. And

00:52:55.079 --> 00:52:56.840
they were US hunters, and every one of them had

00:52:56.840 --> 00:52:59.280
the same attitude. The best wolf is a dead wolf.

00:52:59.320 --> 00:53:02.719
And they'd like to have the trophy of it. One

00:53:02.719 --> 00:53:07.820
unique aspect of that case is Steve Herbeck never

00:53:07.820 --> 00:53:11.059
got an attorney. So he was calling clients, and

00:53:11.059 --> 00:53:14.019
I was one of them. And he knew that I was central

00:53:14.019 --> 00:53:17.670
to this wolf killing and so he was calling me

00:53:17.670 --> 00:53:21.289
and I was sitting there you know how raid days

00:53:21.289 --> 00:53:24.070
go and for your listeners that don't know on

00:53:24.070 --> 00:53:26.070
raid day like if you're the undercover guy you

00:53:26.070 --> 00:53:28.409
sit in the command post and just help pass out

00:53:28.409 --> 00:53:31.269
information and listen right and the searches

00:53:31.269 --> 00:53:33.409
are going on and if questions come up me and

00:53:33.409 --> 00:53:35.269
the other agent it would answer them the best

00:53:35.269 --> 00:53:38.070
we could to help interviewers or searchers or

00:53:38.070 --> 00:53:40.389
whatever and I'm sitting in a command post and

00:53:40.389 --> 00:53:42.630
I've got my undercover phone and Steve Herbeck's

00:53:42.630 --> 00:53:45.199
calling He's like, they're going to come for

00:53:45.199 --> 00:53:48.659
you. Watch out. And then, of course, it's all

00:53:48.659 --> 00:53:50.900
being recorded, him telling me how to lie to

00:53:50.900 --> 00:53:52.639
the game wardens when they come and how we're

00:53:52.639 --> 00:53:54.739
going to cover this up. Don't say this. You need

00:53:54.739 --> 00:53:57.599
to protect me and my kid. And he called me like

00:53:57.599 --> 00:54:00.639
four or five times after the raid to discuss

00:54:00.639 --> 00:54:04.969
defense strategies. That's the best. They said,

00:54:05.030 --> 00:54:07.969
record him until he lawyers up. And I kept asking

00:54:07.969 --> 00:54:10.309
him, do you have attorney? Because I'm thinking

00:54:10.309 --> 00:54:12.829
about getting one. This is getting scary. And

00:54:12.829 --> 00:54:15.449
he said, no, I don't have one. So until he finally

00:54:15.449 --> 00:54:17.510
said he had a lawyer, I had to stop taking his

00:54:17.510 --> 00:54:20.409
calls. But by the time it all came down, they

00:54:20.409 --> 00:54:23.429
were so caught. We didn't charge them with anything

00:54:23.429 --> 00:54:26.809
federally. They agreed to pay. all of the fines

00:54:26.809 --> 00:54:29.150
and restitution that Canada wanted to get out

00:54:29.150 --> 00:54:31.829
of Ontario. And then Wisconsin had a bunch of

00:54:31.829 --> 00:54:34.510
violations. So they got rung up pretty hard in

00:54:34.510 --> 00:54:37.730
that case. And what they ended up with was Ontario

00:54:37.730 --> 00:54:41.750
charged the lodge 50 counts. Wow. They charged

00:54:41.750 --> 00:54:44.570
the business for all the different violations

00:54:44.570 --> 00:54:50.730
we had documented. They paid 33 ,000 U .S. in

00:54:50.730 --> 00:54:53.769
fines, and then there's like a victim surcharge

00:54:53.769 --> 00:54:56.630
fee. I don't know what that amounted to. I didn't

00:54:56.630 --> 00:54:59.590
understand that in their system. And they ended

00:54:59.590 --> 00:55:02.530
up pleading to 15 ,000 and then they paid 23

00:55:02.530 --> 00:55:05.570
,000 in additional fines. Steve heard that, got

00:55:05.570 --> 00:55:09.389
charged with 24 charges. He pled to seven counts,

00:55:09.610 --> 00:55:14.429
paid $7 ,500 and then paid that victim surcharge.

00:55:14.469 --> 00:55:17.690
And then he got 10 year revocation. His son got

00:55:17.690 --> 00:55:23.190
27 charges. He pled to Looks like Seven or eight

00:55:23.190 --> 00:55:26.449
of those he paid seven thousand and then he got

00:55:26.449 --> 00:55:28.650
a four -year revocation He forfeited the wolves

00:55:28.650 --> 00:55:32.110
that he had killed and then Federman got pretty

00:55:32.110 --> 00:55:34.289
much the same thing and then they got charged

00:55:34.289 --> 00:55:37.650
in Wisconsin with some other stuff there so probably

00:55:37.650 --> 00:55:41.610
the best outcome of that is that It was so traumatic

00:55:41.610 --> 00:55:43.650
for them that they ended up selling the business

00:55:43.650 --> 00:55:46.329
right after the take down. So we basically put

00:55:46.329 --> 00:55:49.070
them out of business in Andy Meyers Lodge because

00:55:49.070 --> 00:55:51.969
it's so legendary. Some new owners came in. And

00:55:51.969 --> 00:55:55.030
in my last conversation with the Ontario officers,

00:55:55.949 --> 00:55:57.909
they, on the straight and narrow, they're trying

00:55:57.909 --> 00:56:00.190
to rebuild the reputation of the Andy Meyers

00:56:00.190 --> 00:56:02.449
Lodge. And it's, they said they're really good

00:56:02.449 --> 00:56:04.050
people to work with the people that have it now,

00:56:04.070 --> 00:56:06.349
but we took the Herbex out of the game. They

00:56:06.349 --> 00:56:08.730
cleaned it up. So yeah, and it was all about

00:56:08.730 --> 00:56:11.380
killing wolves to protect The deer herd. Yeah,

00:56:11.820 --> 00:56:14.420
that's a recurring recurring kind of theme built

00:56:14.420 --> 00:56:17.880
on a myth that wolves, you know, decimate deer

00:56:17.880 --> 00:56:20.460
herds. And so you have to eliminate wolves, which

00:56:20.460 --> 00:56:24.880
is so kind of I don't I don't understand how

00:56:24.880 --> 00:56:27.199
people get to that logic, because if you just

00:56:27.199 --> 00:56:32.599
look at the biology of it. That has not ever

00:56:32.599 --> 00:56:34.980
been proven to be true. You know what I mean?

00:56:35.460 --> 00:56:37.900
The deer populations were decimated in the early

00:56:37.900 --> 00:56:41.159
20th century by humans, not by predators who

00:56:41.159 --> 00:56:43.539
had been there for thousands of years alongside

00:56:43.539 --> 00:56:48.719
deer. You and I talked about this before, and

00:56:48.719 --> 00:56:52.760
I never really got to say it as an agent. And

00:56:52.760 --> 00:56:55.260
I want to say it now, and I hope your listeners

00:56:55.260 --> 00:56:58.099
take it with the appreciation that I hope that

00:56:58.099 --> 00:57:03.969
it has. In our country, the U .S., hunters and

00:57:03.969 --> 00:57:07.010
fishermen flipped the dime for a lot of conservation

00:57:07.010 --> 00:57:09.949
movements that happened in this country, bringing

00:57:09.949 --> 00:57:13.030
animals back, recovering deer and turkeys and

00:57:13.030 --> 00:57:15.829
things that hunters like to hunt. And they paid

00:57:15.829 --> 00:57:18.309
their way. The one thing that always bothered

00:57:18.309 --> 00:57:22.829
me is that in a part of that, wolves were recovered

00:57:22.829 --> 00:57:25.929
because of hunting and fishing dollars that funded,

00:57:25.929 --> 00:57:29.639
you know, Pittman Robertson funds that excise

00:57:29.639 --> 00:57:34.019
taxes and hunters helped recover wolves maybe

00:57:34.019 --> 00:57:36.820
unwittingly and maybe some a lot of hunters would

00:57:36.820 --> 00:57:39.099
say well this is stupid why the government kill

00:57:39.099 --> 00:57:41.219
them only to try and bring them back well we

00:57:41.219 --> 00:57:43.260
did that with a lot of wildlife yeah exactly

00:57:43.260 --> 00:57:47.780
and these wolves were protected as endangered

00:57:47.780 --> 00:57:50.900
and they recovered and hunters should have been

00:57:50.900 --> 00:57:54.059
waving the banner of success of another recovered

00:57:54.059 --> 00:57:57.179
species and we should have treated that animal

00:57:57.179 --> 00:58:00.909
the way that recovered animals are. We use them

00:58:00.909 --> 00:58:03.329
wisely. We don't need to exterminate them. We

00:58:03.329 --> 00:58:05.090
don't need to put poison on the landscape. We

00:58:05.090 --> 00:58:07.570
don't need to put baited fishing hooks hanging

00:58:07.570 --> 00:58:10.110
from a tree hoping a wolf will jump on and catch

00:58:10.110 --> 00:58:12.469
it. We don't have to shoot everyone. If we manage

00:58:12.469 --> 00:58:16.630
them wisely and we treat them as for the rarity

00:58:16.630 --> 00:58:19.130
that they are, the value and appreciation for

00:58:19.130 --> 00:58:22.090
them will go up. That is not what the ranching

00:58:22.090 --> 00:58:25.420
community or the livestock or the hunter groups

00:58:25.420 --> 00:58:28.579
were saying they wanted these wolves gone. Like

00:58:28.579 --> 00:58:31.500
Elder Leopold said, no wolves meant to hunt a

00:58:31.500 --> 00:58:34.619
deer hunter's mecca. No wolves meant no losses

00:58:34.619 --> 00:58:38.639
to livestock. And that mentality of wolves are

00:58:38.639 --> 00:58:41.699
killing everything just still permeates our society

00:58:41.699 --> 00:58:44.820
today. And hunters should be saying, we helped

00:58:44.820 --> 00:58:47.079
recover these things and we're proud of it and

00:58:47.079 --> 00:58:49.280
wave it as a banner of another success that hunters

00:58:49.280 --> 00:58:51.949
brought about on the landscape. It's just something

00:58:51.949 --> 00:58:53.789
I wish people understood a little more. And I

00:58:53.789 --> 00:58:56.949
just never heard that in my whole career. This

00:58:56.949 --> 00:58:59.389
is a good thing. So I know the people who love

00:58:59.389 --> 00:59:04.489
wolves for non -hunting reasons, they're wonderful

00:59:04.489 --> 00:59:07.269
people that support this. But then we have these

00:59:07.269 --> 00:59:10.510
diametric opposing forces. But there's a middle

00:59:10.510 --> 00:59:12.210
road there somewhere. And I wish we could have

00:59:12.210 --> 00:59:16.210
struck it, especially in Wyoming. Yeah. And I'm

00:59:16.210 --> 00:59:17.809
glad you said Wyoming, because I want to jump

00:59:17.809 --> 00:59:20.980
to Wyoming now. You having been there. I think

00:59:20.980 --> 00:59:23.840
one of the most perplexing things to me is when

00:59:23.840 --> 00:59:27.239
I heard, as a Fish and Wildlife Special Agent,

00:59:27.300 --> 00:59:29.619
who was accustomed to these concepts you're talking

00:59:29.619 --> 00:59:32.440
about, when I heard that wolf populations were

00:59:32.440 --> 00:59:35.039
recovering in Wyoming and were doing so well

00:59:35.039 --> 00:59:38.199
that they were going to be delisted there, my

00:59:38.199 --> 00:59:41.239
first thought was, well, this is great. Now,

00:59:41.239 --> 00:59:44.760
in the past, hunters have not been able to hunt

00:59:44.760 --> 00:59:46.900
wolves in Wyoming because they were endangered

00:59:46.900 --> 00:59:49.840
and threatened. Now, delisted, they will be able

00:59:49.840 --> 00:59:54.260
to hunt them. But in my mind, I'm thinking reasonably

00:59:54.260 --> 00:59:57.360
hunt them under a properly managed game management

00:59:57.360 --> 01:00:02.619
system like they do trophy animals. And by allowing

01:00:02.619 --> 01:00:04.719
a healthy wolf population to exist, you're going

01:00:04.719 --> 01:00:08.360
to end up getting some pretty monster big wolves

01:00:08.360 --> 01:00:12.739
that survive into adulthood. Seven, eight -year

01:00:12.739 --> 01:00:15.829
-old male wolf is going to be a big wolf. perfect

01:00:15.829 --> 01:00:20.530
trophy animal for a hunter to take pride in harvesting.

01:00:20.610 --> 01:00:23.050
I'm not a hunter, but I understand that that

01:00:23.050 --> 01:00:26.449
is an interest and that's fine. But what boggles

01:00:26.449 --> 01:00:29.989
my mind is the Wyoming approach has been, let's

01:00:29.989 --> 01:00:32.369
take it down to the bare minimum that is allowed

01:00:32.369 --> 01:00:36.389
under federal law, you know, and with no concept

01:00:36.389 --> 01:00:39.550
of proper balance for wolves in the environment.

01:00:39.610 --> 01:00:42.679
It's more along the lines of A good wolf is a

01:00:42.679 --> 01:00:46.460
dead wolf, and we don't want them here. I don't

01:00:46.460 --> 01:00:50.739
get that. It's hard to understand. And to take

01:00:50.739 --> 01:00:53.159
an animal like the wolf, where so much effort

01:00:53.159 --> 01:00:56.320
went to recover them in the greater Yellowstone

01:00:56.320 --> 01:00:58.679
area, Yellowstone Teton, and they're spreading

01:00:58.679 --> 01:01:02.800
out from there, much to the dismay of some people.

01:01:03.360 --> 01:01:06.539
This is a species that's still fairly rare. Yeah.

01:01:06.719 --> 01:01:09.289
It's kind of like a bighorn sheep. You know,

01:01:09.289 --> 01:01:12.690
to get a bighorn sheep in, you know, Wyoming,

01:01:13.230 --> 01:01:16.429
you have to apply and accumulate points, a point

01:01:16.429 --> 01:01:19.590
a year. A minimum of 20 points are needed to

01:01:19.590 --> 01:01:22.329
draw this tag. In my mind, I thought that's probably

01:01:22.329 --> 01:01:24.730
going to happen with wolves. That is not what

01:01:24.730 --> 01:01:27.610
happened. When Wyoming got control of wolves,

01:01:28.130 --> 01:01:30.110
they said, OK, we'll treat the wolves around

01:01:30.110 --> 01:01:33.409
the national parks like a trophy animal. We'll

01:01:33.409 --> 01:01:35.610
issue some permits there like we normally do.

01:01:35.610 --> 01:01:37.460
You can draw one. And that's how we're going

01:01:37.460 --> 01:01:40.239
to hunt those wolves there. But if they are outside

01:01:40.239 --> 01:01:43.079
of this little northwest corner of the state,

01:01:44.019 --> 01:01:47.519
it's wide open season. No season, no states,

01:01:47.800 --> 01:01:52.500
no methods. Everything goes. The only thing people

01:01:52.500 --> 01:01:54.780
had to, they were like coyotes. They went from

01:01:54.780 --> 01:01:57.559
threatened and endangered to coyote status. And

01:01:57.559 --> 01:01:59.900
for your listeners who don't know what coyote

01:01:59.900 --> 01:02:02.039
status means is you don't even need a hunting

01:02:02.039 --> 01:02:06.460
license to kill a wolf. Yeah, exactly. You don't

01:02:06.460 --> 01:02:08.820
need to register it. You don't, there's nothing

01:02:08.820 --> 01:02:11.239
required. You can kill a coyote any time of the

01:02:11.239 --> 01:02:14.420
year. And that's how coyotes are valued in our

01:02:14.420 --> 01:02:18.559
society. Wolves. they were one step above a coyote

01:02:18.559 --> 01:02:22.059
because Wyoming decided, well, we'll just have

01:02:22.059 --> 01:02:24.360
people who kill wolves report them and that's

01:02:24.360 --> 01:02:26.760
it. If you kill one, just let us know so we can

01:02:26.760 --> 01:02:29.340
keep track of what wolves are being killed. That's

01:02:29.340 --> 01:02:32.400
the bare minimum of wildlife management that

01:02:32.400 --> 01:02:35.239
the state chose to use once they got under control.

01:02:35.659 --> 01:02:37.800
My biggest fear is they would do that with grizzly

01:02:37.800 --> 01:02:40.099
bears. I don't know what their plan is if they

01:02:40.099 --> 01:02:42.539
get control of grizzlies, but that's how they

01:02:42.539 --> 01:02:45.039
wanted to treat wolves. Most people that hate

01:02:45.039 --> 01:02:47.460
wolves would have applaud that management strategy,

01:02:47.739 --> 01:02:50.440
but those who care and want wolves on the landscape,

01:02:51.159 --> 01:02:54.219
you know, this is an abomination of wildlife

01:02:54.219 --> 01:02:58.199
management. Yeah, it's not management. Back to

01:02:58.199 --> 01:03:00.940
the numbers thing. I mean, we got 360 million

01:03:00.940 --> 01:03:04.539
people in the United States and we got 6 ,000

01:03:04.539 --> 01:03:06.559
wolves. And you mean to tell me we can't make

01:03:06.559 --> 01:03:08.699
room for them? Yeah, exactly. Share the landscape

01:03:08.699 --> 01:03:11.139
with them because they might eat an elk that

01:03:11.139 --> 01:03:14.320
some hunter might shoot or I mean, The livestock

01:03:14.320 --> 01:03:17.400
losses are pretty minimal. Yes. Or and they get

01:03:17.400 --> 01:03:20.159
and there's a compensation program in place for

01:03:20.159 --> 01:03:22.980
if a wolf does do damage. Right. And offending

01:03:22.980 --> 01:03:26.400
wolves get removed. So once they got to list

01:03:26.400 --> 01:03:29.380
it, it was it was really disappointing. Yeah.

01:03:29.699 --> 01:03:33.480
And it's I have to say this. It was disturbing

01:03:33.480 --> 01:03:35.519
to me that I have to tell you this one quick

01:03:35.519 --> 01:03:38.659
episode. Sure. I get a call from a state game

01:03:38.659 --> 01:03:41.179
warden. He and another warden had gone out hunting.

01:03:41.820 --> 01:03:44.699
for these two wolves that were found around this

01:03:44.699 --> 01:03:47.300
town called Cameroon, Wyoming, which is in southwest

01:03:47.300 --> 01:03:50.099
Wyoming. So these wolves had moved from the Yellowstone

01:03:50.099 --> 01:03:53.760
Valley moving south. And two wardens called and

01:03:53.760 --> 01:03:55.760
said, hey, we're out hunting. We're going to

01:03:55.760 --> 01:03:59.599
try and hunt these wolves. And we were sneaking

01:03:59.599 --> 01:04:02.699
up on them. And an airplane flew over, circled,

01:04:02.699 --> 01:04:06.519
and we heard gunshots. And then we looked over

01:04:06.519 --> 01:04:08.139
the hill and there was these two dead wolves

01:04:08.139 --> 01:04:10.579
on the ground and the airplane flew off. So we

01:04:10.579 --> 01:04:14.400
didn't get to hunt them. So it turns out that

01:04:14.400 --> 01:04:16.639
another warden who wasn't with these guys, the

01:04:16.639 --> 01:04:18.739
guy who was the warden in that area, had heard

01:04:18.739 --> 01:04:21.579
these two wolves had come around town there,

01:04:21.739 --> 01:04:24.500
and he didn't want the wolves near, he didn't

01:04:24.500 --> 01:04:27.239
want the wolves in his district. And he used

01:04:27.239 --> 01:04:30.909
this excuse, he said, I'm worried about the safety

01:04:30.909 --> 01:04:33.389
of the people in my community, and we need to

01:04:33.389 --> 01:04:36.110
kill these wolves. So he called Wildlife Services,

01:04:36.489 --> 01:04:39.050
a federal arm of the government, to fly out there

01:04:39.050 --> 01:04:43.070
and kill them. And he shot the federal government.

01:04:43.559 --> 01:04:45.840
Here we recovered them. We got the government

01:04:45.840 --> 01:04:48.119
going back out there to fly over them to shoot

01:04:48.119 --> 01:04:50.460
them and then he shoots them out from two game

01:04:50.460 --> 01:04:52.559
boards who are trying to like legitimately hunt.

01:04:52.860 --> 01:04:55.119
These are all government employees catching these

01:04:55.119 --> 01:04:58.320
two wolves. I'm like, wow, did we do a 180 on

01:04:58.320 --> 01:05:00.300
this? Unbelievable. It was really hard to watch

01:05:00.300 --> 01:05:03.260
after all the hard work and not just me, but

01:05:03.260 --> 01:05:07.900
all the other agents that predated my work here

01:05:07.900 --> 01:05:13.989
in Wyoming. offensive, is the way I would put

01:05:13.989 --> 01:05:16.969
it, and a disgrace to wildlife conservation to

01:05:16.969 --> 01:05:19.849
treat wolves in that manner after we had recovered

01:05:19.849 --> 01:05:22.750
them. Instead of using it to generate revenue

01:05:22.750 --> 01:05:24.969
to build the program and support for wolves,

01:05:25.400 --> 01:05:27.320
they didn't want that happening in this state.

01:05:27.619 --> 01:05:30.780
That's Steve Stowinski's opinion. People criticized

01:05:30.780 --> 01:05:33.019
me for it, but I can take it. I mean, I had a

01:05:33.019 --> 01:05:35.059
bullseye on my back my whole career because of

01:05:35.059 --> 01:05:39.119
wolves. And it was nice. I need to thank you,

01:05:39.219 --> 01:05:41.460
Ed. Thank you for letting me get that off my

01:05:41.460 --> 01:05:43.239
chest because I had to carry that around in my

01:05:43.239 --> 01:05:46.219
head for 25 years. No, I hear you. People thought

01:05:46.219 --> 01:05:49.420
that way. So thank you. No, totally. You're welcome.

01:05:49.500 --> 01:05:52.739
I hear you 100%. And that's my big beef is I

01:05:52.739 --> 01:05:57.539
just want the approach to wolves to be science

01:05:57.539 --> 01:06:03.239
-based, pragmatic, rationally based on what we

01:06:03.239 --> 01:06:05.860
know about wolf biology and their interaction

01:06:05.860 --> 01:06:09.179
with deer and not based on what somebody told

01:06:09.179 --> 01:06:12.119
you over a beer at the local bar about wolves.

01:06:12.719 --> 01:06:15.420
So much of the information about wolves and how

01:06:15.420 --> 01:06:18.239
they interact with deer and elk and their historic

01:06:18.239 --> 01:06:21.619
impact and their historic sizes and behaviors

01:06:21.619 --> 01:06:24.420
is based on what two people said over probably

01:06:24.420 --> 01:06:27.780
five beers at a local bar. And they completely

01:06:27.780 --> 01:06:32.320
ignore the many studies that have been done by

01:06:32.320 --> 01:06:35.719
state wildlife biologists who have looked at

01:06:35.719 --> 01:06:39.880
wolf behavior and habitat and biology and history.

01:06:40.599 --> 01:06:43.820
They just ignore that in favor of what their

01:06:43.820 --> 01:06:48.219
pal Jimmy said at the bar over a beer. And that

01:06:48.219 --> 01:06:52.960
to me is like, And as a conservation law enforcement

01:06:52.960 --> 01:06:57.360
professional myself, it's annoying. It's annoying.

01:06:57.820 --> 01:07:01.500
It just bothers me. And I want to take just a

01:07:01.500 --> 01:07:04.440
few more minutes, maybe like 10 more minutes.

01:07:04.900 --> 01:07:06.639
Toward the end of your career, you were involved

01:07:06.639 --> 01:07:10.219
in a case where wolves from Wyoming had moved

01:07:10.219 --> 01:07:12.599
down into Colorado naturally. This is before

01:07:12.599 --> 01:07:16.360
Colorado had voted to reintroduce them. And there

01:07:16.360 --> 01:07:21.619
was an incident where The wolves were intentionally

01:07:21.619 --> 01:07:24.780
lured out of Colorado back into Wyoming, where

01:07:24.780 --> 01:07:28.119
these extremely liberal lax rules about killing

01:07:28.119 --> 01:07:31.760
wolves applied, and those wolves were basically

01:07:31.760 --> 01:07:34.800
just wiped out. Can you just briefly, we have

01:07:34.800 --> 01:07:36.739
about 10 minutes, can you describe that case

01:07:36.739 --> 01:07:40.019
and that situation? Yeah, so as I'm describing

01:07:40.019 --> 01:07:43.489
the last episode with the wolves and getting

01:07:43.489 --> 01:07:46.849
shot. Wolves were moving their way south in Wyoming

01:07:46.849 --> 01:07:51.769
before delisting. And the loners head out. Well,

01:07:52.070 --> 01:07:54.130
I'm not really sure how this happened, but there's

01:07:54.130 --> 01:07:57.030
a drainage coming out of the Wyoming range and

01:07:57.030 --> 01:08:00.409
the Wind River Mountains that run through north

01:08:00.409 --> 01:08:02.610
and south in Wyoming. The wolves took one of

01:08:02.610 --> 01:08:04.710
those corridors or drainages down and they ended

01:08:04.710 --> 01:08:07.690
up in southern Wyoming and then eventually into

01:08:07.690 --> 01:08:12.539
Colorado is the best theory. Uh, spread out from

01:08:12.539 --> 01:08:17.020
there. So, um, best guess, uh, best estimates

01:08:17.020 --> 01:08:18.819
or best sightings. I don't remember if there

01:08:18.819 --> 01:08:21.739
were six wolves that had made their way to Colorado

01:08:21.739 --> 01:08:24.140
right on the border. We called it the three corners

01:08:24.140 --> 01:08:27.460
area between Utah, uh, Wyoming and Colorado.

01:08:27.460 --> 01:08:30.239
Right. And, uh, by Brown's park national wild

01:08:30.239 --> 01:08:33.319
effort, if you just north of that, and these

01:08:33.319 --> 01:08:35.920
six wolves had been seen or I can't remember

01:08:35.920 --> 01:08:39.920
how they were observed there. But this is a monumental

01:08:39.920 --> 01:08:43.119
episode for Colorado because that's like 150

01:08:43.119 --> 01:08:45.960
years. It's the first time they knew wolves had

01:08:45.960 --> 01:08:47.939
set foot there. So everybody's pretty excited

01:08:47.939 --> 01:08:52.680
about. So a lot of media around it. The excitement

01:08:52.680 --> 01:08:54.819
of wolves being back, but then a lot of dread

01:08:54.819 --> 01:08:57.079
that, oh, God, we got wolves, we got rid of them,

01:08:57.079 --> 01:08:59.079
now we're stuck with them. So, yeah, opposing

01:08:59.079 --> 01:09:02.760
things. So. But since there was no wolf population

01:09:02.760 --> 01:09:05.659
in Colorado, Colorado hadn't had any laws on

01:09:05.659 --> 01:09:07.479
the books to protect wolves. So they're behind

01:09:07.479 --> 01:09:10.600
the curve on this now. So the only law that protects

01:09:10.600 --> 01:09:13.319
them, even though wolves were delisted, they

01:09:13.319 --> 01:09:16.520
were delisted in specific states, Idaho, Montana,

01:09:17.199 --> 01:09:20.420
Wyoming, Colorado, New Game, they're listed as

01:09:20.420 --> 01:09:22.100
threatening in danger because they just showed

01:09:22.100 --> 01:09:26.770
up. Right. I mean, wolves were in 48 of the states.

01:09:26.890 --> 01:09:28.930
Now they're only in like a half a dozen. Right.

01:09:28.930 --> 01:09:31.649
So they make it to state number seven, and woo

01:09:31.649 --> 01:09:34.149
-hoo. But everybody else, wow, this is terrible.

01:09:35.229 --> 01:09:37.609
But it is interesting, because the minute they

01:09:37.609 --> 01:09:39.409
crossed the border from Wyoming to Colorado,

01:09:39.529 --> 01:09:42.729
they went from totally huntable, not protected,

01:09:44.289 --> 01:09:46.770
to threatened and endangered, covered under the

01:09:46.770 --> 01:09:50.920
Endangered Species Act. Yeah. So then these wolves

01:09:50.920 --> 01:09:54.479
started dying and they weren't being seen anymore.

01:09:55.720 --> 01:09:58.319
And being a hunter and knowing how the hunting

01:09:58.319 --> 01:10:01.560
mind works, I'm thinking, well, if I was in Colorado,

01:10:01.579 --> 01:10:03.479
and I used to be an agent there in Grand Junction

01:10:03.479 --> 01:10:06.020
on the West side, I thought, well, I know the

01:10:06.020 --> 01:10:08.939
mentality of the Western Colorado and who likes

01:10:08.939 --> 01:10:13.130
to hunt big game or is a rancher. was going to

01:10:13.130 --> 01:10:15.729
poach a wolf in Colorado, I'd shoot one there

01:10:15.729 --> 01:10:17.750
and bring it to Wyoming and say, I killed it

01:10:17.750 --> 01:10:21.329
there. That was just me thinking like, um, someone

01:10:21.329 --> 01:10:23.050
who might want to kill a wolf and get away with

01:10:23.050 --> 01:10:26.010
it. Right. So, um, why, one thing I didn't tell

01:10:26.010 --> 01:10:28.310
you, Wyoming passed as part of the law. If you

01:10:28.310 --> 01:10:30.930
killed a wolf and you read it and reported it,

01:10:31.409 --> 01:10:33.510
those records of your reporting were protected

01:10:33.510 --> 01:10:36.210
by state law. The state could not release that

01:10:36.210 --> 01:10:39.520
except for law enforcement purposes. Right. I

01:10:39.520 --> 01:10:42.880
was so I was able our biologist is a fishing

01:10:42.880 --> 01:10:46.439
wildlife biologist in lander He was responsible

01:10:46.439 --> 01:10:48.800
for those six wolves on the federal side and

01:10:48.800 --> 01:10:51.060
he said they're getting killed He says I need

01:10:51.060 --> 01:10:56.420
your help. So I said, okay, so Wyoming was able

01:10:56.420 --> 01:11:01.479
to share the records and three or four four wolves

01:11:01.479 --> 01:11:06.260
that were killed and they were Two were from

01:11:06.260 --> 01:11:11.109
coloradans and One was from a Wyoming guy. One

01:11:11.109 --> 01:11:14.670
Colorado killed two wolves. In Wyoming, allegedly.

01:11:16.350 --> 01:11:19.050
That's what the report said. So two wolves were

01:11:19.050 --> 01:11:21.609
killed in Wyoming, and his father killed a wolf

01:11:21.609 --> 01:11:25.449
in Wyoming, and then a guy from Wyoming killed

01:11:25.449 --> 01:11:27.949
a wolf in Wyoming in that southern, in that three

01:11:27.949 --> 01:11:32.050
corners area. So I thought, well, I'm just, not

01:11:32.050 --> 01:11:34.289
much I can, I have to prove this, so the best

01:11:34.289 --> 01:11:36.189
I can do is go talk to them. So I interviewed

01:11:36.189 --> 01:11:40.859
them. And these guys were guiding outfitters.

01:11:41.399 --> 01:11:45.979
And they wanted to protect their hunting interests.

01:11:46.039 --> 01:11:49.619
They didn't want them killing elk. And they had

01:11:49.619 --> 01:11:51.500
feverish nightmares of what these wolves were

01:11:51.500 --> 01:11:54.760
going to do. So they went out there and they've

01:11:54.760 --> 01:11:58.539
got recordings and calls and went out. I mean,

01:11:58.560 --> 01:12:02.279
they literally crossed over, drove their car

01:12:02.279 --> 01:12:04.600
up to the state line between Colorado, Wyoming.

01:12:04.970 --> 01:12:07.930
walked into Wyoming with their calls and tried

01:12:07.930 --> 01:12:10.390
to call these wolves. There's a small mountain

01:12:10.390 --> 01:12:13.829
there where the wolves had been seen. And according

01:12:13.829 --> 01:12:17.510
to them, they lured these wolves into Wyoming

01:12:17.510 --> 01:12:20.909
from Colorado and shot them. And I'm thinking,

01:12:21.050 --> 01:12:24.949
holy crap, one guy killed two wolves. And most

01:12:24.949 --> 01:12:27.430
of the people in Colorado haven't even seen them

01:12:27.430 --> 01:12:29.649
yet. Exactly. This guy's already killed two.

01:12:29.890 --> 01:12:33.220
And it just, that just seems. ridiculous to me

01:12:33.220 --> 01:12:37.500
because Wyoming doesn't protect them. So, long

01:12:37.500 --> 01:12:40.159
story short, this investigation went on. We got

01:12:40.159 --> 01:12:42.180
other leads and tips about other wolves that

01:12:42.180 --> 01:12:44.539
had been killed that didn't really lead us to

01:12:44.539 --> 01:12:48.779
anything that we could charge anybody with. They

01:12:48.779 --> 01:12:51.619
did it legally. The closest I got on one of the

01:12:51.619 --> 01:12:54.420
wolves was the guy initially said he stood on

01:12:54.420 --> 01:12:56.979
the Colorado side, saw the wolf on the Wyoming

01:12:56.979 --> 01:13:01.079
side, shot from Colorado into Wyoming. splitting

01:13:01.079 --> 01:13:03.579
hairs. Splitting hairs. That's the best I could

01:13:03.579 --> 01:13:08.699
do as far as, you know, some bad act, but we

01:13:08.699 --> 01:13:12.180
didn't have enough to build a case. So what was

01:13:12.180 --> 01:13:15.140
frustrating about that case is that when we were

01:13:15.140 --> 01:13:17.579
done with it, it should have been closed. Right.

01:13:17.819 --> 01:13:20.840
And that I was the case agent on it. We were

01:13:20.840 --> 01:13:23.380
really short people. And that was right before

01:13:23.380 --> 01:13:26.359
I retired. So I started as the case agent of

01:13:26.359 --> 01:13:28.670
that. They gave it to the We usually have four

01:13:28.670 --> 01:13:30.710
agents in Colorado. We only have one. And that's

01:13:30.710 --> 01:13:33.189
why I was helping. I was covering Western Colorado,

01:13:33.649 --> 01:13:35.789
Utah and Southern Wyoming in the last two years

01:13:35.789 --> 01:13:39.130
of my career. Wow. Okay. And this Wolf case ended

01:13:39.130 --> 01:13:42.510
up going back to the Colorado based agent. He

01:13:42.510 --> 01:13:45.789
took it up to finish it up and I helped him as

01:13:45.789 --> 01:13:48.949
much as he needed. And we weren't able to put

01:13:48.949 --> 01:13:52.609
a Wolf case together. But the case was due to

01:13:52.609 --> 01:13:55.149
be closed. And you know, from working there,

01:13:55.529 --> 01:13:59.630
every 90 days, update it or close it. And it

01:13:59.630 --> 01:14:01.109
should have been closed. We had no other leads

01:14:01.109 --> 01:14:03.149
to follow. We had no case to bring forward. And

01:14:03.149 --> 01:14:05.689
you had done what's called a recommended foreclosure,

01:14:05.770 --> 01:14:08.989
right? So you've actually put on paper that you

01:14:08.989 --> 01:14:11.470
recommend this case be closed. Again, I wasn't

01:14:11.470 --> 01:14:14.750
the agent at that point. But we were done. And

01:14:14.750 --> 01:14:17.310
the agent who had it was responsible for closing

01:14:17.310 --> 01:14:22.699
it. orders from higher up than us said we're

01:14:22.699 --> 01:14:26.159
not closing that when I had the conversation

01:14:26.159 --> 01:14:28.180
with this individual and I said well why aren't

01:14:28.180 --> 01:14:31.180
we closing that and the reason I was given was

01:14:31.180 --> 01:14:34.420
that the wolf there's a wolf initiative on the

01:14:34.420 --> 01:14:37.460
ballot in Colorado put to the voters do we want

01:14:37.460 --> 01:14:41.939
to recover wolves or do we not and this individual

01:14:41.939 --> 01:14:44.220
didn't seem to have a lot of interest in seeing

01:14:44.220 --> 01:14:48.779
wolves recover he had told me and he left it

01:14:48.779 --> 01:14:52.119
open so you know and I know that we're not allowed

01:14:52.119 --> 01:14:55.180
to release information about open cases. He wanted

01:14:55.180 --> 01:14:57.640
to keep it open so no information about this

01:14:57.640 --> 01:15:01.060
Wolfenget investigation or these six brand new

01:15:01.060 --> 01:15:03.560
wolves to Colorado would get out to the public

01:15:03.560 --> 01:15:06.039
because he thought it might sway public opinion

01:15:06.039 --> 01:15:09.979
about wolves mainly in favor of bringing wolves

01:15:09.979 --> 01:15:12.140
back because people would have been outraged

01:15:12.140 --> 01:15:17.289
at hearing about this case and the initiative

01:15:17.289 --> 01:15:19.949
would have gained more momentum. And that's not

01:15:19.949 --> 01:15:22.949
what this person decided. It was my impression

01:15:22.949 --> 01:15:24.649
from our conversation. That's what I took away

01:15:24.649 --> 01:15:27.010
from it. So the case stayed open. So it never

01:15:27.010 --> 01:15:29.489
got publicly released until after the ballot

01:15:29.489 --> 01:15:33.050
initiative was voted. It passed anyways. But

01:15:33.050 --> 01:15:36.550
it was kept quiet so it wouldn't garner more

01:15:36.550 --> 01:15:38.890
support than it probably deserved. Yeah. You

01:15:38.890 --> 01:15:41.649
know, when you told me this story, it really

01:15:41.649 --> 01:15:44.359
infuriated me because The person we're talking

01:15:44.359 --> 01:15:45.840
about, we're not going to name him, but he was

01:15:45.840 --> 01:15:48.779
a special agent in charge for a region. He was

01:15:48.779 --> 01:15:50.560
actually a classmate of mine at the Academy.

01:15:50.920 --> 01:15:53.800
And even as early as 20 years earlier at the

01:15:53.800 --> 01:15:57.119
Academy, he had expressed anti -predator sentiments

01:15:57.119 --> 01:15:58.939
to me. And I remember arguing with him at the

01:15:58.939 --> 01:16:01.300
dining hall about it, because so many of his

01:16:01.300 --> 01:16:04.239
opinions about predators were based on just like

01:16:04.239 --> 01:16:08.619
fairy tales, grim fairy tales about the evils

01:16:08.619 --> 01:16:12.560
of predators. So when you told me this, I was

01:16:12.560 --> 01:16:14.239
like, gosh, this guy didn't learn anything in

01:16:14.239 --> 01:16:16.840
20 years of being a special agent for US Fish

01:16:16.840 --> 01:16:19.840
and Wildlife Service. And more importantly, he's

01:16:19.840 --> 01:16:22.859
manipulating public documents to fit his narrative

01:16:22.859 --> 01:16:26.680
of how things should come out in a state ballot

01:16:26.680 --> 01:16:31.300
initiative. Just very disappointing. And I think

01:16:31.300 --> 01:16:34.500
it's important for listeners to be aware that

01:16:34.500 --> 01:16:36.739
even among the ranks of people who are supposed

01:16:36.739 --> 01:16:41.819
to protect wildlife, sometimes you're You're

01:16:41.819 --> 01:16:44.380
fighting opinions within your own agencies that

01:16:44.380 --> 01:16:46.899
don't match the science that your agency is producing.

01:16:47.619 --> 01:16:51.720
Yeah, and I didn't expect that in my career.

01:16:51.880 --> 01:16:56.340
No, me neither. I remember one other quick little

01:16:56.340 --> 01:16:59.560
anecdote there. I picked up some eagles from

01:16:59.560 --> 01:17:04.020
a state warden, and that warden's daughter was

01:17:04.020 --> 01:17:06.960
writing a report on wolves at that time. And

01:17:06.960 --> 01:17:09.520
I was at their house and visiting with them.

01:17:10.410 --> 01:17:12.989
And the warden said, oh, you need to talk to

01:17:12.989 --> 01:17:15.810
him. He knows all about wolves. So I asked the

01:17:15.810 --> 01:17:17.829
daughter, I said, so what position are you taking

01:17:17.829 --> 01:17:20.989
on wolves? She goes that we should never allow

01:17:20.989 --> 01:17:24.170
wolves to be in Wyoming. And I said, why do you

01:17:24.170 --> 01:17:26.010
feel that way? She says, oh, because they're

01:17:26.010 --> 01:17:28.670
terrible for wildlife. They're terrible for livestock.

01:17:29.229 --> 01:17:31.829
We just don't need wolves. And that's the position

01:17:31.829 --> 01:17:36.310
I'm taking. And this is a young high school student.

01:17:37.000 --> 01:17:39.300
Have you ever seen a wolf in the wild or heard

01:17:39.300 --> 01:17:43.579
one call?" And her response was, no, I never

01:17:43.579 --> 01:17:50.439
want to either. And I thought, wow, the dynamic

01:17:50.439 --> 01:17:54.199
was the father was a guide, the mother was a

01:17:54.199 --> 01:17:58.000
game organ. And what influences were they having

01:17:58.000 --> 01:18:01.979
on this child? And I thought, they're prerogative.

01:18:02.180 --> 01:18:07.260
But I'm like, so conversely, my kids love to

01:18:07.260 --> 01:18:10.520
see wolves or hear about wolves because we valued

01:18:10.520 --> 01:18:13.060
them differently as a conservation success story.

01:18:13.660 --> 01:18:15.859
That's disturbing when people within our own

01:18:15.859 --> 01:18:18.180
ranks aren't even showing the support that they're

01:18:18.180 --> 01:18:19.859
charged with the responsibility of doing. And

01:18:19.859 --> 01:18:22.180
I don't mean to pick on them, but I have to live

01:18:22.180 --> 01:18:24.819
with that haunting of the officers I know. And

01:18:24.819 --> 01:18:26.680
there's more other, there's other stories of

01:18:26.680 --> 01:18:29.420
that lack of support for wolves even within our

01:18:29.420 --> 01:18:31.359
own ranks. And that was a, as I said, I felt

01:18:31.359 --> 01:18:33.739
like I had a bullseye on my back. Like, you know,

01:18:33.739 --> 01:18:35.720
when I go interview people, I'm like, yep, I'm

01:18:35.720 --> 01:18:38.819
the wolf guy and I go take your best shot. So

01:18:38.819 --> 01:18:41.340
yeah, predators are a tough thing to defend,

01:18:41.340 --> 01:18:44.460
but you know, I was the oldest. other in my family,

01:18:44.479 --> 01:18:46.619
and I stuck up for my siblings, and I felt the

01:18:46.619 --> 01:18:48.699
same calling for wolves. That's just the way

01:18:48.699 --> 01:18:52.960
it was. Yep. Yep, Steve, I totally agree with

01:18:52.960 --> 01:18:57.039
you. This has been an amazing conversation, and

01:18:57.039 --> 01:18:59.479
it's one that we're going to continue to have

01:18:59.479 --> 01:19:01.699
throughout the rest of this season on Nature's

01:19:01.699 --> 01:19:05.340
Secret Service with other guests. I will say,

01:19:05.380 --> 01:19:07.260
you and I have talked about this before, but

01:19:07.260 --> 01:19:10.579
the first time I heard a wolf in the wild, the

01:19:10.579 --> 01:19:13.300
first time I saw one and heard one howl, was

01:19:13.300 --> 01:19:17.979
2002, no, 2003. And it was in Yellowstone National

01:19:17.979 --> 01:19:21.380
Park. And yeah, it kind of changed my life, really,

01:19:21.460 --> 01:19:24.479
because I really had been in the woods and outdoors

01:19:24.479 --> 01:19:27.340
a lot prior to that, and had seen coyotes and

01:19:27.340 --> 01:19:30.560
different predators. But there's something very

01:19:30.560 --> 01:19:35.020
moving about a wolf howl as the sun sets and

01:19:35.020 --> 01:19:39.550
you're out on a trail on foot. It kind of re

01:19:39.550 --> 01:19:41.449
-centers you, I think, as a human being. At least

01:19:41.449 --> 01:19:43.569
it did for me. And anybody who has an opportunity

01:19:43.569 --> 01:19:47.869
to do that should do it. I could agree with you

01:19:47.869 --> 01:19:51.409
more. For every wolf that I saw dead, I was so

01:19:51.409 --> 01:19:53.609
thankful for the few that I got to see alive.

01:19:53.869 --> 01:19:56.470
Yep, exactly. Unfortunately, the dead ones outnumbered

01:19:56.470 --> 01:19:59.270
the live ones. But my family was elated with

01:19:59.270 --> 01:20:03.050
any wolf we ever saw in the wild. We still talk

01:20:03.050 --> 01:20:05.210
about it as if it was one of those things we

01:20:05.210 --> 01:20:08.010
checked off of our life list of things we were

01:20:08.010 --> 01:20:11.090
privileged enough to see alive. And that's pretty

01:20:11.090 --> 01:20:14.210
cool. Same here. But thank you very much for

01:20:14.210 --> 01:20:16.609
the work that you did in the Rocky Mountain states

01:20:16.609 --> 01:20:19.250
and the Great Lakes area on wolves. I never had

01:20:19.250 --> 01:20:22.189
a chance to work wolf cases myself. So I always

01:20:22.189 --> 01:20:24.149
appreciated that we had good agents out there

01:20:24.149 --> 01:20:26.590
standing up for our conservation efforts at the

01:20:26.590 --> 01:20:29.010
Fish and Wildlife Service. Thank you for doing

01:20:29.010 --> 01:20:30.909
that and thank you very much for being on another

01:20:30.909 --> 01:20:33.449
episode of the podcast. Well, thanks for having

01:20:33.449 --> 01:20:35.729
me and thanks for doing this and letting these

01:20:35.729 --> 01:20:38.569
stories come out through this program. I wish

01:20:38.569 --> 01:20:40.510
we could have done more of this when we were

01:20:40.510 --> 01:20:44.130
working just to let the public know what we were

01:20:44.130 --> 01:20:46.609
doing for their wildlife. Not about us, it was

01:20:46.609 --> 01:20:48.510
about the resource that we were trying to protect

01:20:48.510 --> 01:20:51.369
and we should have told more stories. And also

01:20:51.369 --> 01:20:53.649
I want to thank all the agents who came before

01:20:53.649 --> 01:20:56.449
me who shored up the whole wolf conservation

01:20:56.449 --> 01:20:59.859
movement before I... came into their positions

01:20:59.859 --> 01:21:01.739
behind them. I hope I did them proud because

01:21:01.739 --> 01:21:04.020
they did good work. So thanks for having me in.

01:21:04.060 --> 01:21:06.340
Absolutely, Steve. Anytime. You're welcome. Anytime.

01:21:07.060 --> 01:21:08.699
All right, everybody. Thank you very much for

01:21:08.699 --> 01:21:10.659
tuning in to another episode of Nature's Secret

01:21:10.659 --> 01:21:14.220
Service. We'll see you next time. Nature's Secret

01:21:14.220 --> 01:21:17.060
Service is written and produced by me, Ed Newcomer,

01:21:17.079 --> 01:21:20.039
and is co -produced by the DHTV team here at

01:21:20.039 --> 01:21:22.260
California State University Dominguez Hills.

01:21:22.539 --> 01:21:24.619
Follow us on social media and connect with us

01:21:24.619 --> 01:21:26.899
online at naturessecretservice .com.