If you want to learn more about the topics of
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Okay, people, listen up. Here we go. This is
Nature's Secret Service, the podcast that puts
you in the room with the men and women of wildlife
law enforcement. I'm your host, Ed Newcomer.
And tonight we have a fabulous guest, Tony Latham.
He is a retired state game warden with the state
of Idaho. He's got over 25 years of experience
working as a game warden, doing a lot of undercover
work on some of Idaho's craziest cases in some
of the wildest public lands. And he's pursued
some of the worst violators you can imagine.
He has a very long history of working cooperatively
with US Fish and Wildlife Service special agents.
And while I was an agent, I actually followed
his exploits quite closely and with a lot of
admiration. There was a lot you could learn from
paying attention to what Tony Latham was doing
in the state of Idaho. Tony, thanks so much for
being on the podcast. I really appreciate it.
Thanks for being here. Hey, I'm really excited
to be here and I hope to be the man you just
described. Well, trust me, let me tell a little
anecdotal story. So every every year US Fish
and Wildlife Service agents generally got together
for what they called an in -service session and
basis lasts about a week 40 hours of training
and During that time we we would have a day or
so of case presentations So you'd hear about
what other people were doing around the country
Most of the time it was US Fish and Wildlife
Service agents who came to talk about their cases
but for some reason Tony Latham showed up at
a lot of those in -service sessions to talk about
cases he was working on and I'll tell you the
room was always very quiet and very wrapped and
and captured by what you're saying because you
worked on some cool stuff and most importantly
you really like I think you led by example in
terms of how States and the feds can work successfully
together, which I always admired. So yeah, I
thought it was great necessary thing back in
the day whether it was You know Lacey act cases
especially before we had the interstate compact
thing amongst the states. Because there was no
reason for a guy to come back to Idaho without
that thing hanging over him. And then when ESA
became a thing, and certainly in my neck of the
woods with wolves, grizzlies, and on the NOAA
side, salmon and steelhead, it was here. Yeah,
right. I didn't even I didn't even think about
that. But for sure Yeah, there's no I wouldn't
have thought that Noah would be involved in Idaho,
but you're absolutely right Yeah, you guys did
bull trout for us and they know it didn't say
I'm gonna steal Ed. Yeah, which was kind of it's
kind of always interesting where the jurisdictional
boundaries were for Noah and US Fish and Wildlife
Service, but Yeah, I think I think to be a successful
criminal investigator in the wildlife world,
you do really have to be pretty savvy at working
across agencies. You can't just be a lone wolf
ranger out there by yourself, right? No, no.
It'd be really stupid. Let's put it that way.
It would indeed. So tell us a little bit about
your career trajectory. I mentioned you were
a starter, you know, you were an Idaho State
game warden But you originally served in a uniformed
position right as a uniformed warden Yeah, in
fact I served as a uniform officer most of my
career just the last five years is what we called
a regional investigator position and the story
behind that it's kind of funny because I put
in for this district conservation officer job.
Some states would call it a sergeant or a caddis,
yeah, sergeant, first level supervisor, and I
didn't get it. And I was rather stunned. And
in the same conversation that I got that I didn't
get the job, this was coming from Boise, I was
told, we want you to be in a new position, a
regional investigator job. And I said, what?
What is that job? Yeah. Yeah. And so I was that
first one in Idaho. And within six months, we
had seven more open or six other open positions.
But that job was in a sense, it was just like
a special agent in Fish and Wildlife Service.
We did cases that took longer, that took deeper.
They were just bigger cases. Now, early in my
uniform days, I got the lucky nod to work undercover.
And the way that came about was I went to an
undercover training session and our SIU group
had failed miserably about a year before that.
In fact, I was one of the guys that got sued
for conspiracy to take somebody's property or
something. Oh boy. I was in a takedown raid and
my job was to go seize a moose liver out of somebody's
house. We did that and had a warrant, of course.
Then this guy sued us. Of course, that suit went
away within two months, but that is never a fun
thing to get a paper served on you from a deputy
that you know. So our SIU group crashed. Then
about a year later, we hired a new operator who
became a good friend of mine. He was a retired
Secret Service agent. They asked who wants to
go to this undercover training. I said, sure,
that sounds cool. I always wanted to be James
Bond. I think that's what the job was. You lived
to regret that, right? Yeah. I went there and
met our new undercover, Mike Best, and we hit
it off. And about, I don't know, too much later,
he calls me up and says, hey, you want to do
a case with me? I said, yeah. And so we did that
case in Orfino, Idaho. And it was a huge success.
And it was a huge success because of Mike and
because of the targets. They were so, so crooked.
They were killing, killing and selling moose
and elk literally by the ton. So the department
loved that case. The legislature loved the case.
And that's the case that gave Idaho its felony
statutes for wildlife crimes. No kidding. But
after that case, I was allowed to work undercover
as a uniform guy the rest of my career. And then
certainly when I became a regional investigator.
So it was kind of a crazy time period because,
you know, that was pretty self... phone days.
Right. I had one phone in my house. Right. It
could either have rung from somebody calling
me up about an elk case or whatever, or it could
have been my undercover line coming into the
house. So I know you've done a lot of undercover
work, and there's a point where you've got to
change characters. Yes. And so, you know, if
somebody called in and got the answering machine,
it was just, Hi, Tony, please leave a message.
But in case that was a bad guy. But so I never
really knew when I was picking up that phone,
was this going to be a normal call or was this
going to be one of my so -called best friends
wanting to go rape the woods? But that was always
interesting and I had to quickly jump into character.
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, I really appreciated having
that opportunity to do that because Those cases
a lot of them turned into huge cases and they're
the ones that I probably remember the best. Yeah
Yeah, because you kind of live them in a little
bit longer term than you do when you're just
doing Reuniform Patrol work, right? You can't
really get into it. Yeah, you know what you what
you described there is I'm sure a lot of listeners
are kind of like, you know clutching their pearls
and gasping because What you see on TV about
undercover work is that, you know, the agency
rents a house and you the undercover agents living
in a house with it's all wired with cameras and
they've got they've got 10 people backing them
up at all times. And that is not the case. No,
no, no. And it was lucky when I go work a UC
case across the state, I was lucky to be able
to tell the local guy I was going in. and that
I'd call him when I came out. I was lucky to
do that. I mean, there wasn't any, it wasn't
wearing a body wire with some guys in a van or
anything like that, no. No, it's not like somebody's
going to say, he's in trouble, send in the team.
It doesn't work that way. You are on your own.
And even when you do have backup, I mean, even
when I did undercover work in LA, my backup often
did not have eyes on me. The only way they'd
know I was in trouble is if I didn't check in
in a few hours. So a lot of trouble can happen
in a few hours. So okay, that's interesting.
So even while you were a uniformed warden, you
were kind of detailed or allowed to do a lot
of undercover work and essentially work plain
clothes, yeah? I've always had a UC case going
during my uniform days. That's awesome. Very
cool. Then explain, I think he used the term
SIU. What does that stand for? I don't know.
Special Investigative Unit, excuse me. Yeah.
These days, those guys are ripping lips. What
does that mean? Well, we got two full -times
and a supervisor, and those guys are making major
case after major case after major case. Yeah.
And I assume like... other states and U .S. Fish
and Wildlife Service special agents do, they
pretty much are focusing on the most egregious
cases and the commercialization of wildlife,
right? So when you were a state game warden and
an SIU investigator, how did you interact with
U .S. Fish and Wildlife Services agents that
were based up there in Idaho? Well, you know,
early on in my career, it was probably more common
than because where I live and worked was in Salmon,
Idaho and Salmon is a huge vacuum to bring in
non -residents. We have great hunting here. Don't
tell anybody. Don't worry. I only have five people.
A huge volume of non -residents. They come in
and break the law. Now if we just arrested them
and they bonded out or we wrote them a ticket
or whatever and they go back to Tennessee or
wherever You could bet we would never see them
again. And so what we always did is call up you
guys and you guys would start a lazy act with
that thing going on in the background. And that's
how we enforced the law of guys that had the
potential to not come back. And it worked great.
And we did that up until about the late 80s.
when we got the interstate compact amongst all
the states, to where if you didn't appear on
your ticket in Idaho and you lived in Tennessee,
you'd lose your hunting privileges in every state
in the Union until you got that addressed. And
that worked great. Now, sometime about in there
is, you know, 95, the wolf thing. So that became
a huge deal with you guys. And right in there,
we're dealing with listed bull trout, dealing
with you guys using your powers. And like I said,
with the NOAA agents, with Endangered Sam and
Chinook and Steelhead. So, yeah, but it was it
was a constant thing. Yeah. Yeah, I think I've
always described to people, you know, the best
way to think about Fish and Wildlife Service
and state wildlife agencies is comparing FBI
with local law enforcement. We. The feds definitely
need the states for assistance with what they
do, but the feds can be very valuable to the
states in terms of dealing with state crimes
that cross state lines. You mean hugely valuable.
And then I always thought it was the same way
with you guys, because you guys had offices,
an agent in Idaho Falls, a couple in Boise, and
I think that was it as far as Idaho goes. And
how in the heck would your agents know what's
going on in Salmon or Coeur d 'Alene or wherever
without the local officers. Yeah. Couldn't. Couldn't.
And, you know, yeah, for officer safety reasons
and a lot of other investigative reasons, you
got to have those liaisons. So so you mentioned
Wolves 95, their released Return to the Wild
in Idaho and the Yellowstone area. Yeah. When
if you remember when wolves were reintroduced
in Idaho there, what was the immediate reaction
of the officials at Idaho Fish and Game? Well,
I don't know if I picked up on anything from
the officials. But locally. It was it was pretty
crazy. And I think it was I guess it was afterwards
with the talk of a grisly reintroduction. But
anyway. Uh, locally there was, uh, it was bad.
I'm talking local locals. You're talking about
local, local citizens. Yeah. Yes. Yes. Okay.
Yes. Now what was going on in Boise? I don't
know. Okay. But, uh, the wool, the first release
was in my patrol area. Oh, okay. Yeah. Wow. And
so From what I was hearing on the ground I called
up agent McGone Steve McGone my good friend in
Idaho Falls and said hey You guys might want
to be there at the release because this is what
I'm hearing I'm hearing those guys are talking
about shooting them coming out of the boxes Wow,
and Steve asked me Will you come down there with
us? Well, hell yeah, of course. Yeah sounds like
fun Yeah, I'll be with you, but I thought for
a moment I said well I better call my boss I
Called my boss and he said well Let me call my
boss and those phone calls went all the way the
boy seeing the phone to call I got was Not only
no, but hell no Seriously, yeah, they did not
want to have an idol fishing game shield on a
truck at the release site Wow, what do you think
that was about controversial? Yeah Too much.
Yeah, okay too much negative publicity. They
just didn't want to deal with it Well, no, I
think it was just they were worried about the
controversy Interesting. Okay. Yeah, there was
so much negative blowback from hunters in Idaho
You know and I looking back on it, you know,
I think those guys thought That their baseline
of all these elk and deer in Idaho Sheep and
everything else was all gonna go away with these
crazy wolves Yeah, they were gonna eat their
way through Idaho. Yeah. Yeah that there would
be no more elk and no more deer. Yeah. Yeah Yeah,
didn't have what's what's astonishing is what
are we on now? We are 30 years on past 31 years
past and Astonishingly there are still elk and
deer in the state of Idaho quite a few And I'm
still killing elk This is my own two -bit theory
is it made wolves a little bit wilder. Years
ago, I was trying to get my niece, she was probably
22 at the time, a cow elk. We started cutting,
smoking hot, fresh elk tracks on this ridge and
seeing pretty fresh beds. There were elk on that
ridge, and then we cut a wolf track. Then we
cut another wolf track. And then we boogered
those elk and they they they I don't think they
smelled us They sensed or heard or something
like that something other than an elk And they
got out there way faster than what I thought
they should have And I think it's because there
were wolves in the area Yeah, you know, that's
that's what they say is, you know the wolves
in the area changed the elk and deer behavior
And that's why you see if you were because they
move quick and they stay on the move, right?
Yes Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And you know, that's so
interesting to me that the, you know, you were
kind of told specifically, don't go participate
in the wolf reintroduction or release, even though,
you know, potentially I think one of the other
things Steve McGone's been on the on the podcast
on this season, one of the things they talked
about was they were actually not only afraid
for the wolves, but there were some threats against
US Fish and Wildlife Service personnel. being
involved. So, you know, it goes beyond a wolf
protection thing. It's a public safety thing
and an officer safety thing. So I remember you
were even involved with Agent Scott Bergonier's
investigation of the Tim Sundals case, which
is kind of the infamous poison involved. Yeah,
deeply involved, right? On that thing. Yeah,
I'm sorry. Well, he needed us and we needed him
desperately. Mm hmm. So there was. What we needed
from you guys is we needed access to the Ashland
lab. The Idaho State Crime Lab was not going
to deal with, they had no knowledge of poison.
Interesting. Okay. Plus we needed DNA from the
meatballs. Right. And so we needed that resource,
which we didn't have at that point in time, without
a federal nexus. And then we desperately needed
a potential jury. outside this county. Mmm. You
wanted a federal jury. Yeah. You know, so that
first investigative day, I think there was four
of us uniform guys. So three of us in the uniform,
myself as a regional investigator and Scott on
the scene, which was a, it was like a four mile
scene in February. And finally, I found a bait
that had been pecked on by a bird. I looked over
at the nearest ponderosa pine, walked over there,
and sure enough, there was a dead magpie. And
that was the golden goose, because that magpie
was the federal nexus. And Scott was very pleased,
and so was I. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah, even though
you suspect those meatballs are being put out
for wolves without a dead wolf. You don't have
the ESA, so you've got Migratory Bird Treaty
Act puts the case in federal hands. Yes, exactly.
Fascinating. That's fascinating. He never did
kill a wolf on that thing. We saw wolf tracks
that were older from when he put them down. The
whole case started when a kid was up there looking
for deer antlers, sheds, and his dog got poisoned.
Dog got poisoned, yeah. That's how we got the
call. Yeah. Yeah. There's so many things about
that case that are so interesting, but, you know,
to you and me to hear about, oh, it got a four
mile wide crime scene. That's like that means
nothing to us because that kind of happens occasionally,
right? With wildlife stuff, you might have a
pretty big crime scene. But for a local police
officer or a local detective, that's like mind
blowing to have a crime scene. That you're going
to process with five officers. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. So given what your agency had told you
about not just no, but hell no, don't go anywhere
near the wolf release. What was their reaction
to you being involved in this case? Well, fortunately,
by then that smoke had blown away. OK. Earlier
on. After the release, we were told to not assist
you guys at all. Wow, you guys were my friends
that I'd worked numerous cases on right, you
know I'm living in the backyard of these wolves
and and there was a few wolves dying and so What
I did and I suspect my fellow officers here state
guys When something happened I did as much under
the covers as possible as far as running guys
hunting licenses maybe even taking a picture
of a residence, getting vehicle descriptions
or whatever I could do without letting my bosses
know what's going on. Yeah. Wow. I mean, at some
point in time, the state saw the writing on the
wall that we were going to be taken over after
delisting and we needed to get our acts together.
So fortunately, that period had transitioned
when Sundals did his little magic meatball trick.
Yeah. Gotcha. Okay. So by that time you guys
realize we got to, we got to step up our game
on getting familiar with the Wolf cases and involved
in them. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um, let me ask you
something about the Sandals case. Cause by, uh,
we did talk about that in a previous episode
this season. Uh, there was, there was this, uh,
collection or this Maybe a little bit of a joke
about the collection of some yellow snow at the
scene. Do you remember the story behind that?
It ended up getting collected, but did everybody
agree that it was going to be valuable or was
it worthwhile to pick up? No, no, it was. It
was pretty crazy because. One of our guys, Dane
Cook, went up there with another guy, another
officer, to make sure we hadn't left any meatballs
up there. Of course, they found five or something
like that. Wow. At one point, Dane found a place
where whoever did it walked over with his air
bob boots and pushed one of the meatballs under
the snow crust and took a pee. Dane took a urine
sample. We just wrote a report, being the good
officer of the IS. And so that just sat there.
And of course, when we eventually charged Sundles,
that went on discovery and it just sat out there.
And I think at one point in time, I Googled DNA
urine. And normally, you don't get DNA out of
urine because your kidneys cut it all up. Very
hard to get it, yeah. And then out of the blue,
Sundel's attorney said, we want that urine tested.
They did? It shocked us. Yeah, it shocked me.
And for a long time, I wondered why he wanted
that. And I think I know. I think he realized
the odds of having Sundel's DNA in there was
virtually nil. And yet, could Dane Cook's DNA
be in there? Could the guy doing the test, could
he get his DNA in there or whatever? Right. And
so we did it. And I take it as a compliment because
his attorney said absolutely no way was Tony
Latham going to be the one to swab Tim Sundles.
We got to back up. Because the the really coolest
part of that whole urine story is that the reason
that the DNA ended up in the urine is because
Sundles had a cold the week before. Right. And
that's when DNA ends up in your urine. And we
knew he'd get a cold because we were watching
him. I had been watching him before the poison
on a forum that he kept posting on. And that
turned out to be a huge bit of our search warrant.
What he said on there. So we knew, he said he's
feeling measly or something, but something to
that effect. And because of that, he's just peeing
out DNA left and right. Yeah, it was unbelievable.
In fact, when Scott called me up and said, we
just got the information on the DNA from the
urine. And he said, I'm going to read this to
you and tell me if I'm seeing what I think it
says. You know, he disbelieved. this lab report
saying, yeah, Tim Sundl's DNA was in the urine,
you know? Yeah. Yeah. So that was amazing. And
right after that, Sundl's agreed to play. And
that was that. The one thing I always heard and
I. Did you guys make fun of Dane Cook for collecting
that urine when he first did it? Or did you think?
What the hell did you get that for? So funny.
He must have loved that DNA, but it was from
Elk and deer and whatnot. Yeah, yeah. Dane must
have loved that. He got teased for it and it
turned out to be like the big piece of evidence.
It was the big hammer in the end. Well, we're
actually, I had Jan not necessarily talk about
the Sundles case, but I think your perspective
on it is really good because we have talked about
it. When it comes to predators that are listed
as endangered and threatened in the in the west
the predators that can kill people there is an
interesting provision in the u .s. fish and wildlife
service the federal rules. That one of the exceptions
one of the times you can kill them is in self
defense right which makes sense of course is
a grizzly bear sure kill you so a lot of times
when when grizzly bears are killed. state officers
or US Fish and Wildlife Service agents, one of
the first things they do is they open an investigation
and they're going to, part of that investigation
is going to try to either confirm or disprove
a claim of self -defense. So those are carefully
investigated, almost like murder investigations,
just to see what the evidence supports. Wolves
don't really, they don't attack people. Technically
speaking, that defense could be available if
a person killed a wolf that was trying to kill
the person. And in fact, if I remember correctly,
there was some incident involving this notorious
Sundals years before where he had admitted to
killing a wolf, but he claimed he did it in self
-defense. Do you remember the facts around that?
I think it was about 18 months before he put
the poison down. And he came out in a public
big game meeting, if I recall first, and admitted
killing it. I think he said it veered in towards
his wife. Yeah. And so it was a stunning thing.
And he announced that like a month after it happened.
And it was a radio -collared wolf. became certainly
regional in the Northwest information that this
guy had admitted killing a wolf that had attacked
his wife. It was a huge news thing. I lost track
of how many newspapers covered it, but it was
huge. Yeah. Yeah. I think, if I remember right,
that might've been Agent McGone investigated
that. I'm not sure he might've, but my recollection
is that It couldn't be proved one way or the
other that it was self -defense or not. So they
just kind of dropped. He burned the radio caller
and he didn't do it for a month. And then when
McGone went in there, he wouldn't take him to
the kill site without the sheriff there because
he said that they were going to do him in or
something. Yeah. Yeah, this is a guy who had
bumper stickers on his car actually encouraging
people to eliminate a fed. He was selling those.
Yeah. And I don't think he was afraid of feds.
I think feds should have been afraid of him.
Well, I don't know if you remember, but there
was a period there about this time where feds
were reported were termed jackbooted thugs. Oh,
yeah. Yeah, yeah. I was going on. It was. Idaho
representative, I think by the name of Helen
Chanowith was pushing that and Yeah, yeah. Oh
it made its way all the way to LA. I've been
called Jack Boots on your closet back there.
Yeah Yeah, I've been called that a few times
by people who ended up being convicted in trial
So yeah, but later you were involved in another
interesting investigation that involved the wolf
killing where the person who killed the wolf
claimed self -defense. Yeah. Tell us about that.
Yeah. Because I heard about the report and Dane
Cook there again was going to go out and investigate
this. And I was thinking baloney because I'd
worked in Alaska. Hold on a sec. So first of
all, Dane Cook, he's a uniformed game warden,
right? So it's kind of like, yeah, first responders
that you don't want to go shoplift in his candy
store. He was a really good game warden. He too
is retired now, but he went out and I'm hearing
the stories. I'm just I'm not believing it because
I had worked in Alaska as a wildland firefighter
for a decade and. There was a few times I was
scared to death of grizzlies. And I had this
fear up there of two things, burning in a helicopter
or being mauled by a grizzly. Those two things
I feared. But never once was I in fear of wolves.
You know, I was around a lot of Inuit people,
a lot of Athabaskans. We talked a lot about a
lot of things and nobody was afraid of wolves.
Nobody. And looking back, during those years
where now, it was no different than me being
afraid of coyotes or a skunk or something. I
got more fear of a skunk maybe, I don't know.
But it just wasn't a thing. So we get this call
from an outfitter and said, we had to kill a
wolf in self -defense. And I didn't know that
outfitter real well at the time, but Dane went
up to investigate it. And what the outfitter
said is he and his client were sitting in sagebrush
on top of a hill and hunting deer. They're both
wearing camouflage. There was several inches
of fresh snow on the ground and suddenly a hundred
or two hundred yards below them out of a stringer
of timber. Two wolves came out and the hunter
stepped up a little bit to look and one of those
wolves caught that movement and came charging
up the hill hmm, and then went out of sight because
the the hill was at a curvature and that so for
a bit the wolf was out of sight and then suddenly
that wolf was on them and that the client was
the only one of the rifle brought his gun up
from the hip and cut one off and killed that
wolf at 10 yards. Wow, 10 yards. Yeah. And Dane
went up there and investigated it. He interviewed
both of them separately. He went at the outfitter
caped into the kill site. It was beautifully
preserved as far as where the two wolves had
come out, where the one wolf had come roaring
up the hill with long strides and then the dead
wolf 10 yards from where those guys were sitting
in the sagebrush. Wow. 10 yards. And I don't
know how fast the wolf runs, but pretty fast.
It's pretty fast. So it sounds like Dane did
a pretty thorough investigation. He looked at
wolf tracks to see that it was running toward
them and all of that, right? Yeah. Yeah. But
I'm going, yeah, I don't believe this. 10 years
playing with wolves or being around wolves. Wait,
before you talk about your investigation, big
difference here between what happened with Tim
Sundals and these two hunters. By the way, when
you say an outfitter, you're talking about basically
a hunting guide that somebody hires to take you
out. No, it's okay. Most of my listeners will
know that, but not all of them. No, no, it's
okay. That's my job to like fix them. But, um,
unlike Sundles, these, these two hunters, when
they shot this wolf, they immediately self -reported.
They didn't destroy any collars. They didn't
try to hide the body. It didn't wait for a month.
Yeah, exactly. Yeah, exactly. Okay. But you're
still suspicious just because you know wolf behavior
and wolves don't attack people. So what did you
do? Got to keep in mind, this is in that time
period where my neighbors, the residents of Lemhi
County in central Idaho, didn't take their kids
to the school bus drop and leave them there because
they believed the wolves were going to come kill
their kids. That was kind of a general belief.
They had these new four -legged... Animals with
giant fangs that ate everything and it was no
longer safe to be out there Unbelievable, you
know, which is crazy for me, you know and in
but That's why I just I just didn't believe the
whole thing happened You know Dane said it happened
the way those guys said it happened and Dane's
a great interviewer and so there was that end
of it But so I went out and got that wolf put
him on the tailgate of my truck and skinned it
back, because the wound was through the neck.
And I skinned that thing back and found the entrance
wound, found the exit wound, and I put a quarter
inch dowel through that bullet wound. And it
told the story, the rest of the story. As soon
as that guy stood up and brought his rifle up,
in that instant, that... Tenth of a second that
wolf realized it wasn't a trail mix mule deer.
He was gonna have as a snack and Turned and took
that bullet as he as he turned that that that
wolf was Beyond 90 degrees and it was already
in retreat and had realized its mistake that
these were humans Not food. I see It is and I
was so pleased to do that And I actually took
the photographs that I think I gave to you on
your webpage and I took them back to the outfitter
and sat those guys, him down, I think the client
was still there, sat them down individually in
my truck, showed them those pictures and their
jaws dropped. They realized at that point in
time, that wolf wasn't going to get them. And
there was a, this is near Gibbonsville, which
is, you can't even buy gas there. But there's
a great restaurant there, The Broken Arrow. I
went up there. I knew the owner quite well. And
I said, Rose, because the news was all over the
world about this wolf attack. And everybody was
going, yeah, we're right. We can't drop our kids
off the bus. And I went up there and I said,
Rose, this is what happened. And here's where
the bullet went after the wolf had realized what
was going on and was trying to get away. And
boom. The wolf was dead and I actually left that
photograph. She posted it up on her board and
and I I think I'm pretty sure that de -escalated
that. Good for you. Of course, it's good for
you. Yeah. Yeah, I saw you really hate black
wolf. Yeah, you did send me the photos which
I will put on the website. There are there, you
know, there the skin is peeled off. So anybody
who looks should be prepared but. It does show
the dowel going through it, which I think is
a really great investigative step that you took
because it does show the direction of the bullet.
So we will put that on the website. Thanks for
sending those to me. So I have a couple of questions
about that. One is, you know, based on your investigation,
it sounds like your conclusion was that the wolf
was not attacking the hunters. Absolutely. It
was not. No question. But I know. Know some of
my listeners might say well, why did they shoot
it then? So were they justified in shooting it
in your opinion? Absolutely. Absolutely. I may
have done that with a wolf charging at full speed
and at 10 yards I get my gun up and here it comes
and it's right on top of me. Yeah, I thought
it was justified. Yeah Yeah, so then the next
question I know some people are gonna have and
you and I are gonna explain a little bit of what
a law enforcement tactic or law enforcement,
something we're taught that is true. And that
is someone will say, okay, well, if this wolf
turned, why did the hunter shoot? And so do you
remember from your academy or tactical training
days, something called the OODA loop? Do you
remember that? You know, I think I recall that,
but I don't know what it is at this point in
my life. Thank goodness. Please tell me. Yeah,
I think we should explain it a little because
I used to I used to be a tactical instructor
so OODA loop is O O D A and it stands for observe
orient decide and act and It's really a fascinating
thing if you stand with your you know any listener
today who listens this podcast I want you to
do this experiment with your best friend your
spouse girlfriend boyfriend, whatever Have them
stand right in front of you within arms reach
and tell them that you're gonna reach out and
touch them With your left hand on their right
shoulder. Tell them I'm gonna do that I'm gonna
reach out and touch you on your right shoulder
with my left hand Okay, don't let me do it. Don't
hurt me, but don't let me do it Even with them
not knowing your hands both you got your hands
at the side You will be able to touch their shoulder
before they'll be able to block your hand and
the reason for that is because. Yeah and you
are ahead of them on the loop and what we do
when we when we just be exist in a conscious
state day to day walking down the street going
into a seven eleven whatever it is you're always
observing orienting deciding and acting and it
might just be walking and stepping up on a curb
when you. Observe the curb coming you orient
to the fact that you're gonna need to step up
You decide to step and then you do it The problem
is that when you are reacting to somebody else's
you're behind them on the OODA loop So that's
why I will always be able to touch you on the
shoulder always Yeah, yeah, and so what happened
movies were the gunslinger sees the guy drawing
and out draws him doesn't never gonna happen.
Yeah Yeah, exactly. And police are taught this
because it's very important because television
will teach you that you should not. You're not
authorized to shoot someone until they point
a gun at you. And that's not true, because if
you wait for somebody to raise, if you see somebody
with a gun and you wait for them to raise it,
they will shoot you before you can shoot them.
It will happen. So. The wolf was ahead of the
hunters on the OODA loop. And by the time the
hunters observed and oriented and decided to
act, you know, the wolf had turned, but they
hadn't acted yet. You know what I mean? It had
to happen based on what Dean's diagrams and photographs
and the bullet track information. It all happened
in a millisecond. When when that guy probably
started to pull the trigger it was a front on
assault and by the time that bullet went off.
The wolf was scared to death. Yeah yeah I think
that's a really interesting case but the best
part about it for me is that the hunters self
self -reported. Did you get a sense from them
whether they were like excited that they'd killed
a wolf, that they were pissed off at wolves?
Because they were out there deer hunting. What
was there? Did you get any sense from them? I
think they they kind of reveled in the in the
moment that they'd been attacked by a wolf and
then, you know, we were able to defend themselves.
They were. Yeah, but they were still in shock
over the whole thing when I showed them the pictures.
Yeah. Yeah, I mean and seem to be bragging about
it or or you know Aren't we really cool and we
finally got one of those buggers or anything
like that? No Right and and you mentioned this
was a black wolf and and anybody who has not
seen a wolf in the wild Wolves are big. They're
really big and They're really tall. Yeah, they're
tall feet Yes, you know, but I've got a fat black
lab actually she's brown And you know one point
in time she was 90 pounds and that's a wolf Yeah,
the big or weight wise isn't any bigger than
any smaller than a gray wolf Yeah, I think they're
really big male wolves. Maybe get to 120 something
like that Yeah, sure. Yes, that'd be a huge wolf
rarely though. Yeah And, you know, I've personally
encountered wolves on foot in Yellowstone on
a trail back country. And I had an incident where
14 wolves came out of the woods pretty much right
in front of me. And it's you can tell instantly
it's not a dog. They're very intimidating because
they're big. But, you know, I would never felt
threatened for a moment because they just looked
at me and then they howled and then they walked
away. As long as you don't make eye contact.
And I'm saying that as a joke. Or as long as
you're not wearing a little red riding hood cape
and carrying a basket. Right. You've talked to
me before about something you call the Wolf Wars.
What do you talk about? In that entire period
of my career, where the whole issue was so blown
up, so blown out of proportion, it was just crazy
times. And it didn't make it easy for Game Wardens
because a lot of people were blaming the release
on Game Wardens. But I look back on it as I'm
damn glad I was there during the Wolf Wars because
it made life more interesting. It was a crazy
period. I'm glad I'm there. I'm glad I'm not
in that wolf war anymore. But anyway, it was
interesting. Yeah. So why do you think there
is such hatred of wolves in states like Idaho,
Montana, and Wyoming? Well, you know, I've been
thinking about that for a long time. And certainly
yesterday and today, knowing that we're going
to be talking about that, I've been doing some
thinking. And I think what it was... is everybody's
got their baseline. And those guys, the hunters,
the sportsmen of Idaho, probably non -residents,
were thinking that the wolves were going to eat
everything and those days were all over with.
In fact, some of those claims that the wolves
were reintroduced to make it so there was no
wildlife to hunt so the government can take the
guns away. Don't know whether he actually believed
that but he said it and You know, I'm sure some
of his followers cult members Sucked up on that.
Yeah, so I think that's what it was. They're
baseline They were worried that all the elk were
gonna be the deer would go away. Yeah, and Life
would no longer be good So that's what amazes
me is we know we talked about that was 30 years
ago that has not proven to be true No, you know
And so why is it persisting? Why is the wolf
hatred persisting, do you think? Well, it's certainly
calmed down. You know, there's a fair amount
of interest in trapping here. There's a fair
amount of people. I wouldn't say a fair. You
know, there might be like 10 guys around here
trying to trap wolves and there might be. There's
a lot of hunters here, I'm sure, buy a wolf tag
in the fall under the hope they'll be able to
harvest a wolf. Now wolves are fun. They can
go trap them. They can go shoot them. It's no
longer this taboo thing they can't legally do
anything with. It's definitely changed. There's
still a deep hatred for them. But it's nothing
like it was. Yeah. A friend of mine has always
pointed out, he's also a retired Fish and Wildlife
Special Agent, but he points out that hunters
in this country can really take a lot of pride
historically in the things that them and their
organizations have accomplished. A lot of hunting
money and a lot of hunters give money to organizations
that have historically promoted deer habitat
protection, elk habitat protection, and the growth
of those species or the thriving of those species.
And they can take pride in that. Ducks Unlimited,
classic example, helping set aside habitat for
ducks. Yes that helps hunters or benefits hunters
but also benefits anybody who just wants to go
photograph ducks or sea ducks so they can take
a lot of pride in bringing helping to bring species
back or contributing to habitat protection and
growth. They could do the same thing with walls
they could really take a lot of pride in getting
behind making sure that wolves are established
and prosperous and healthy populations in the
west in part. to give them opportunities to hunt
them. There's nothing like hearing a wolf howl
when you're out. Yes, you are not the first person
to say that. And I agree with you. There is nothing
like hearing a wolf howl in the wild. Nothing.
No. So Idaho, I'm not sure what Idaho's rules
are. Wyoming's rules are pretty, in my opinion,
pretty crazy outside of a trophy area that borders
the Yellowstone National Park. All wolves fall
into what they call a predator zone, which means
you can hunt them year round and kill as many
as you want pretty much. That to me doesn't sound
like managing wolves. How's Idaho doing in terms
of managing their wolf population? Well, I want
to use the word extinct, but the numbers here
are so low. It used to be I could do this big
loop from my house and go down the Salmon River
Road. towards corn crick where they were first
reintroduced turn up panther crick and come down
here to my house, which is probably a Three quarters
of a day drive I could do that in the winter
and I could find wolf tracks. I could probably
find a wolf kill but no more You know my wife
and I hunt elk Cow elk in December in the snow
And in the last 10 years, I don't recall seeing
a wolf track. We see lion tracks, but not wolf
tracks. I've got a friend that traps, and he
has trapped maybe three wolves since it became
legal, and for the last two years he's put sets
up out and then pulled them because he can't
find a track. They're very scarce here now. And
I think it's been a political thing for Idaho
to put them in this place. You know what seems
crazy to me too is from the state's perspective,
the states wanted the wolves delisted so they
could get management of them. But what really
boggles my mind is if the states mismanage them,
there's really no question that they're going
to go back on the endangered species list and
the Fish and Wildlife Service will take them
over again. I can see that happening down the
road. You bet. I don't understand why the states
are intentionally mismanaging wolves to the point
that they may lose control over them. Why not
keep control and have a reasonable biology -based
hunting season? I think they're just responding
to the politics. Yeah, it's politicized their
management to appease the wolf haters. That's
that's what I would might call it I don't know.
Yeah. Yeah. Okay, so that brings me back to In
my opinion a lot of the wolf hating is based
on really absurd myths What what are your what
do you think are the most absurd myths being
told out there about wolves today? The biggest
thing I think is that these are not the wolves
we used to have. A lot of these people call these
Canadian gray wolves, and they're much bigger,
much more ferocious, and it's just not true.
We had wolves here before the reintroduction.
We had two wolves in Stanley Basin, I don't know,
75 miles to my west, that were poisoned by a
sheep herder, and we couldn't quite make that
case. Those wolves were the same dang wolves
that we've got here now. You know, anybody that
thinks those wolves north of the Canadian border
are different than these wolves are nuts. They
don't know what that line is, where that line
is. They're just like elk. The elk in British
Columbia are the same elk as in Idaho. You know,
across the border, you know, and the wolves maybe
even more so because they travel. over great
distances under certain circumstances. We had
a pair of wolves that were both collared and
the female was killed. And I saw a map where
that male had gone and it was all around central
Idaho. It's huge, I don't know, three, four hundred
miles journey. And I assume he was looking for
his mate. He was a broken -hearted wolf. When
I was working that first undercover case in Orfino,
one of those guys was a Nez Perce tribal member
who was selling like 12 moose a year. But anyway,
he never lied, and I'll give him that credit.
He was not a BSer. He showed me where he'd seen
a wolf. I'm sure that was probably a young male
that had come down from Canada looking for a
female to find that he probably never found.
Those wolves were coming down from Canada all
the time, I'm sure. No doubt. Historically, for
sure. I agree with you on that myth. That's one
of the dumbest ones that I think is out there.
The big bad Canadian wolf. Because I mean, every
university and every museum in Idaho must have
a wolf pelt from the times in the early 1900s
when they were exterminating them. And we know
the DNA. Yeah, you know, the DNA, you know, they're
the same. And more importantly, if you just go
to the library and you look at an old black and
white photograph of somebody in 1918, 1915, 1920,
who killed a wolf, you'll see it's just. big
as they get. They're huge. Yeah, that one gets
me too. I totally agree with you on that. There's
a bunch of them that I just don't understand
how they keep getting perpetuated, but I think
it's a real shame that wolf conservation has
become politicized and it's not good. I think
the same thing's going on with lions in Utah
right now. It's coming. Yeah, it's coming. Lions
and grizzlies are going to be next. That's the
reason they're losing their mule deer. They don't
trust their own biologists. Your own biologists
are doing the studies and that's not their conclusion.
What is it they're doing? There's some game management
unit in Utah right now that's allowing take of
lions whenever and wherever and however you want
to do it because they want to see. They're going
to destroy all the lions just to see what happens
to the deer. houndsmen down there that love hunting
lions are very, very upset. Yeah, they're going
to lose all their lions. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I
mean, a good a good hunter, a true hunter is
all for, you know, biology based rational management
of game. The lion hunters I know here seldom
kill a lion. Yeah. Interesting. Well given that
I always ask I've asked my guests on every episode
of this season What's your view personally, you
know as a former game warden as a person who
lives in that community? As a person who hunts
what's your view on wolf introduction good bad.
What are your thoughts about it? I think looking
back I think was great. You know, I like wildlife
Yeah They were always here up until, you know,
maybe the last, I don't know, 100 years. But
they're native here. Elk evolved with them being
here. Deer evolved with them. Lions probably
kill a hell of a lot more deer than wolves will
ever kill. And wolves are more prey specific
here towards elk. And, you know, I'm 74 years
old. and I'm still killing elk. I've probably
killed five or six in the last 10 years and my
wife has probably killed nearly the same. Life
is good. These are the good old days with the
wolves. With the wolves. Yeah as a hunter in
Idaho, you're not you're not feeling like you're
missing out on anything because wolves are there,
right? I still got meat in the freezer Exactly.
Well, hey before we wrap up You I want to just
give you a brief second to talk briefly about
this new book you have out, because you are a
very prolific writer. So I'll post links to some
of your books or all of them actually on the
website, because you're a very prolific writer
and you have a new book coming out, which I think
is going to be really interesting to people.
Just can you briefly tell us, say the title and
tell us a little bit about what it's about? Yeah,
the title is A Case So Cold, the Murder of an
Idaho Game Ward. What happened, and curiously,
early in my career, I knew of an officer that
died in an airplane crash, Count Elm. I knew
of an officer that was killed when a horse reared
up and killed him. I knew of Bill Pogue and Connelly
Elms being murdered by a trapper. Claude and
Elms were... Connelly and Bill were just burned
into our DNA. And that was... six years before
I came on, but it was part of our DNA. And at
some point in time, early on, I'd heard that
one of our wardens had disappeared a long time
ago in North Idaho. And that was the entire statement,
the story. Nobody knew what happened. Nobody
knew his name. Nobody really knew where it was.
And what actually happened was that He did what
all game wardens do. He heard shots one afternoon,
evening from his house, and he chose what we
call chasing shots. He went up there. He found
three dead deer, August, way close season, and
nobody was around. So he goes back up at the
crack of dawn, tells his wife he'll be back by
to go to a funeral of theirs, their friends.
He never sees him ever again. They had a search
of over a thousand people looking for him, an
organized search by the sheriff. It went on for
weeks. It was the largest search for anybody
in the United States up till 1969, where some
kid got lost in the Appalachians. But it was
a huge search. Don't don't give away the ending
Tony for this thing away. Don't give it up Don't
give away the ending but it had done about a
cold case for a long time, right? But finally
I'll give I'll say it this way in that 89 years
later The murder was solved. Yeah, that's a good
way to end it. Yeah like that. Okay. Yeah. Yeah
to say the title one more time a case so cold
the murder of an Idaho game warden and it's truly
the oldest cold -case, solved murder in the state
of Idaho's history. Yeah. I love it. You were
kind enough to give me a free copy of it, which
I really appreciate. I'm looking forward to reading
it. Yeah, with my voice narrating it. Oh, even
better. Even better. Yeah. I feel like you're
tucking me in at night when you read me a chapter.
Listen to it while you're driving around. You'll
have me hiding under the seat. Yeah. That sounds
good. That sounds good. Hey, Tony Latham, thank
you so much for being on the podcast. I really
appreciate it. It's good to see you again, and
I hope you'll be back in season four or future
seasons. That'd be great. Sure. Yep. Thank you
so much for getting me on, Ed. Oh, my pleasure.
You were always on my list, but you're a perfect
fit for this season about wolves, so thank you
so much. Yeah, thank you. Okay, everybody. That'll
do it for this week. We'll see you next time.
Nature's Secret Service is written and produced
by me, Ed Newcomer, and is co -produced by the
DHTV team here at California State University
Dominguez Hills. Follow us on social media and
connect with us online at naturessecretservice
.com.