WEBVTT

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If you want to learn more about the topics of

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today's episode, visit the podcast website at

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naturessecretservice .com. Thanks for listening.

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Okay, people, listen up. Here we go. This is

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Nature's Secret Service, the podcast that puts

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you in the room with the men and women of wildlife

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law enforcement. I'm your host, Ed Newcomer.

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And tonight we have a fabulous guest, Tony Latham.

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He is a retired state game warden with the state

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of Idaho. He's got over 25 years of experience

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working as a game warden, doing a lot of undercover

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work on some of Idaho's craziest cases in some

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of the wildest public lands. And he's pursued

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some of the worst violators you can imagine.

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He has a very long history of working cooperatively

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with US Fish and Wildlife Service special agents.

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And while I was an agent, I actually followed

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his exploits quite closely and with a lot of

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admiration. There was a lot you could learn from

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paying attention to what Tony Latham was doing

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in the state of Idaho. Tony, thanks so much for

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being on the podcast. I really appreciate it.

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Thanks for being here. Hey, I'm really excited

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to be here and I hope to be the man you just

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described. Well, trust me, let me tell a little

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anecdotal story. So every every year US Fish

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and Wildlife Service agents generally got together

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for what they called an in -service session and

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basis lasts about a week 40 hours of training

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and During that time we we would have a day or

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so of case presentations So you'd hear about

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what other people were doing around the country

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Most of the time it was US Fish and Wildlife

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Service agents who came to talk about their cases

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but for some reason Tony Latham showed up at

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a lot of those in -service sessions to talk about

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cases he was working on and I'll tell you the

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room was always very quiet and very wrapped and

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and captured by what you're saying because you

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worked on some cool stuff and most importantly

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you really like I think you led by example in

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terms of how States and the feds can work successfully

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together, which I always admired. So yeah, I

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thought it was great necessary thing back in

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the day whether it was You know Lacey act cases

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especially before we had the interstate compact

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thing amongst the states. Because there was no

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reason for a guy to come back to Idaho without

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that thing hanging over him. And then when ESA

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became a thing, and certainly in my neck of the

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woods with wolves, grizzlies, and on the NOAA

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side, salmon and steelhead, it was here. Yeah,

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right. I didn't even I didn't even think about

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that. But for sure Yeah, there's no I wouldn't

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have thought that Noah would be involved in Idaho,

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but you're absolutely right Yeah, you guys did

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bull trout for us and they know it didn't say

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I'm gonna steal Ed. Yeah, which was kind of it's

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kind of always interesting where the jurisdictional

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boundaries were for Noah and US Fish and Wildlife

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Service, but Yeah, I think I think to be a successful

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criminal investigator in the wildlife world,

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you do really have to be pretty savvy at working

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across agencies. You can't just be a lone wolf

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ranger out there by yourself, right? No, no.

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It'd be really stupid. Let's put it that way.

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It would indeed. So tell us a little bit about

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your career trajectory. I mentioned you were

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a starter, you know, you were an Idaho State

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game warden But you originally served in a uniformed

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position right as a uniformed warden Yeah, in

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fact I served as a uniform officer most of my

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career just the last five years is what we called

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a regional investigator position and the story

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behind that it's kind of funny because I put

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in for this district conservation officer job.

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Some states would call it a sergeant or a caddis,

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yeah, sergeant, first level supervisor, and I

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didn't get it. And I was rather stunned. And

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in the same conversation that I got that I didn't

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get the job, this was coming from Boise, I was

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told, we want you to be in a new position, a

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regional investigator job. And I said, what?

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What is that job? Yeah. Yeah. And so I was that

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first one in Idaho. And within six months, we

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had seven more open or six other open positions.

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But that job was in a sense, it was just like

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a special agent in Fish and Wildlife Service.

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We did cases that took longer, that took deeper.

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They were just bigger cases. Now, early in my

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uniform days, I got the lucky nod to work undercover.

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And the way that came about was I went to an

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undercover training session and our SIU group

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had failed miserably about a year before that.

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In fact, I was one of the guys that got sued

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for conspiracy to take somebody's property or

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something. Oh boy. I was in a takedown raid and

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my job was to go seize a moose liver out of somebody's

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house. We did that and had a warrant, of course.

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Then this guy sued us. Of course, that suit went

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away within two months, but that is never a fun

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thing to get a paper served on you from a deputy

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that you know. So our SIU group crashed. Then

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about a year later, we hired a new operator who

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became a good friend of mine. He was a retired

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Secret Service agent. They asked who wants to

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go to this undercover training. I said, sure,

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that sounds cool. I always wanted to be James

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Bond. I think that's what the job was. You lived

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to regret that, right? Yeah. I went there and

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met our new undercover, Mike Best, and we hit

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it off. And about, I don't know, too much later,

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he calls me up and says, hey, you want to do

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a case with me? I said, yeah. And so we did that

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case in Orfino, Idaho. And it was a huge success.

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And it was a huge success because of Mike and

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because of the targets. They were so, so crooked.

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They were killing, killing and selling moose

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and elk literally by the ton. So the department

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loved that case. The legislature loved the case.

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And that's the case that gave Idaho its felony

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statutes for wildlife crimes. No kidding. But

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after that case, I was allowed to work undercover

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as a uniform guy the rest of my career. And then

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certainly when I became a regional investigator.

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So it was kind of a crazy time period because,

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you know, that was pretty self... phone days.

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Right. I had one phone in my house. Right. It

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could either have rung from somebody calling

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me up about an elk case or whatever, or it could

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have been my undercover line coming into the

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house. So I know you've done a lot of undercover

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work, and there's a point where you've got to

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change characters. Yes. And so, you know, if

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somebody called in and got the answering machine,

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it was just, Hi, Tony, please leave a message.

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But in case that was a bad guy. But so I never

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really knew when I was picking up that phone,

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was this going to be a normal call or was this

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going to be one of my so -called best friends

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wanting to go rape the woods? But that was always

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interesting and I had to quickly jump into character.

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Yeah. Yeah, yeah, I really appreciated having

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that opportunity to do that because Those cases

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a lot of them turned into huge cases and they're

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the ones that I probably remember the best. Yeah

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Yeah, because you kind of live them in a little

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bit longer term than you do when you're just

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doing Reuniform Patrol work, right? You can't

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really get into it. Yeah, you know what you what

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you described there is I'm sure a lot of listeners

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are kind of like, you know clutching their pearls

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and gasping because What you see on TV about

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undercover work is that, you know, the agency

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rents a house and you the undercover agents living

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in a house with it's all wired with cameras and

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they've got they've got 10 people backing them

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up at all times. And that is not the case. No,

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no, no. And it was lucky when I go work a UC

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case across the state, I was lucky to be able

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to tell the local guy I was going in. and that

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I'd call him when I came out. I was lucky to

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do that. I mean, there wasn't any, it wasn't

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wearing a body wire with some guys in a van or

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anything like that, no. No, it's not like somebody's

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going to say, he's in trouble, send in the team.

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It doesn't work that way. You are on your own.

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And even when you do have backup, I mean, even

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when I did undercover work in LA, my backup often

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did not have eyes on me. The only way they'd

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know I was in trouble is if I didn't check in

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in a few hours. So a lot of trouble can happen

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in a few hours. So okay, that's interesting.

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So even while you were a uniformed warden, you

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were kind of detailed or allowed to do a lot

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of undercover work and essentially work plain

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clothes, yeah? I've always had a UC case going

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during my uniform days. That's awesome. Very

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cool. Then explain, I think he used the term

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SIU. What does that stand for? I don't know.

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Special Investigative Unit, excuse me. Yeah.

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These days, those guys are ripping lips. What

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does that mean? Well, we got two full -times

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and a supervisor, and those guys are making major

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case after major case after major case. Yeah.

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And I assume like... other states and U .S. Fish

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and Wildlife Service special agents do, they

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pretty much are focusing on the most egregious

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cases and the commercialization of wildlife,

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right? So when you were a state game warden and

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an SIU investigator, how did you interact with

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U .S. Fish and Wildlife Services agents that

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were based up there in Idaho? Well, you know,

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early on in my career, it was probably more common

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than because where I live and worked was in Salmon,

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Idaho and Salmon is a huge vacuum to bring in

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non -residents. We have great hunting here. Don't

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tell anybody. Don't worry. I only have five people.

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A huge volume of non -residents. They come in

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and break the law. Now if we just arrested them

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and they bonded out or we wrote them a ticket

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or whatever and they go back to Tennessee or

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wherever You could bet we would never see them

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again. And so what we always did is call up you

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guys and you guys would start a lazy act with

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that thing going on in the background. And that's

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how we enforced the law of guys that had the

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potential to not come back. And it worked great.

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And we did that up until about the late 80s.

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when we got the interstate compact amongst all

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the states, to where if you didn't appear on

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your ticket in Idaho and you lived in Tennessee,

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you'd lose your hunting privileges in every state

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in the Union until you got that addressed. And

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that worked great. Now, sometime about in there

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is, you know, 95, the wolf thing. So that became

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a huge deal with you guys. And right in there,

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we're dealing with listed bull trout, dealing

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with you guys using your powers. And like I said,

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with the NOAA agents, with Endangered Sam and

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Chinook and Steelhead. So, yeah, but it was it

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was a constant thing. Yeah. Yeah, I think I've

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always described to people, you know, the best

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way to think about Fish and Wildlife Service

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and state wildlife agencies is comparing FBI

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with local law enforcement. We. The feds definitely

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need the states for assistance with what they

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do, but the feds can be very valuable to the

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states in terms of dealing with state crimes

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that cross state lines. You mean hugely valuable.

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And then I always thought it was the same way

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with you guys, because you guys had offices,

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an agent in Idaho Falls, a couple in Boise, and

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I think that was it as far as Idaho goes. And

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how in the heck would your agents know what's

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going on in Salmon or Coeur d 'Alene or wherever

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without the local officers. Yeah. Couldn't. Couldn't.

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And, you know, yeah, for officer safety reasons

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and a lot of other investigative reasons, you

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got to have those liaisons. So so you mentioned

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Wolves 95, their released Return to the Wild

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in Idaho and the Yellowstone area. Yeah. When

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if you remember when wolves were reintroduced

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in Idaho there, what was the immediate reaction

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of the officials at Idaho Fish and Game? Well,

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I don't know if I picked up on anything from

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the officials. But locally. It was it was pretty

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crazy. And I think it was I guess it was afterwards

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with the talk of a grisly reintroduction. But

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anyway. Uh, locally there was, uh, it was bad.

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I'm talking local locals. You're talking about

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local, local citizens. Yeah. Yes. Yes. Okay.

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Yes. Now what was going on in Boise? I don't

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know. Okay. But, uh, the wool, the first release

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was in my patrol area. Oh, okay. Yeah. Wow. And

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so From what I was hearing on the ground I called

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up agent McGone Steve McGone my good friend in

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Idaho Falls and said hey You guys might want

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to be there at the release because this is what

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I'm hearing I'm hearing those guys are talking

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about shooting them coming out of the boxes Wow,

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and Steve asked me Will you come down there with

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us? Well, hell yeah, of course. Yeah sounds like

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fun Yeah, I'll be with you, but I thought for

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a moment I said well I better call my boss I

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Called my boss and he said well Let me call my

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boss and those phone calls went all the way the

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boy seeing the phone to call I got was Not only

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no, but hell no Seriously, yeah, they did not

00:15:56.799 --> 00:15:59.779
want to have an idol fishing game shield on a

00:15:59.779 --> 00:16:03.399
truck at the release site Wow, what do you think

00:16:03.399 --> 00:16:08.740
that was about controversial? Yeah Too much.

00:16:08.879 --> 00:16:11.039
Yeah, okay too much negative publicity. They

00:16:11.039 --> 00:16:14.019
just didn't want to deal with it Well, no, I

00:16:14.019 --> 00:16:15.919
think it was just they were worried about the

00:16:15.919 --> 00:16:19.000
controversy Interesting. Okay. Yeah, there was

00:16:19.000 --> 00:16:22.340
so much negative blowback from hunters in Idaho

00:16:22.340 --> 00:16:25.740
You know and I looking back on it, you know,

00:16:25.740 --> 00:16:29.820
I think those guys thought That their baseline

00:16:29.820 --> 00:16:33.360
of all these elk and deer in Idaho Sheep and

00:16:33.360 --> 00:16:36.000
everything else was all gonna go away with these

00:16:36.000 --> 00:16:38.659
crazy wolves Yeah, they were gonna eat their

00:16:38.659 --> 00:16:40.720
way through Idaho. Yeah. Yeah that there would

00:16:40.720 --> 00:16:43.559
be no more elk and no more deer. Yeah. Yeah Yeah,

00:16:43.580 --> 00:16:45.799
didn't have what's what's astonishing is what

00:16:45.799 --> 00:16:52.779
are we on now? We are 30 years on past 31 years

00:16:52.779 --> 00:16:55.899
past and Astonishingly there are still elk and

00:16:55.899 --> 00:16:59.960
deer in the state of Idaho quite a few And I'm

00:16:59.960 --> 00:17:06.539
still killing elk This is my own two -bit theory

00:17:07.079 --> 00:17:13.519
is it made wolves a little bit wilder. Years

00:17:13.519 --> 00:17:17.339
ago, I was trying to get my niece, she was probably

00:17:17.339 --> 00:17:23.859
22 at the time, a cow elk. We started cutting,

00:17:24.000 --> 00:17:27.559
smoking hot, fresh elk tracks on this ridge and

00:17:27.559 --> 00:17:32.099
seeing pretty fresh beds. There were elk on that

00:17:32.099 --> 00:17:35.319
ridge, and then we cut a wolf track. Then we

00:17:35.319 --> 00:17:39.009
cut another wolf track. And then we boogered

00:17:39.009 --> 00:17:42.250
those elk and they they they I don't think they

00:17:42.250 --> 00:17:45.329
smelled us They sensed or heard or something

00:17:45.329 --> 00:17:48.869
like that something other than an elk And they

00:17:48.869 --> 00:17:51.869
got out there way faster than what I thought

00:17:51.869 --> 00:17:54.569
they should have And I think it's because there

00:17:54.569 --> 00:17:57.670
were wolves in the area Yeah, you know, that's

00:17:57.670 --> 00:17:59.369
that's what they say is, you know the wolves

00:17:59.369 --> 00:18:01.690
in the area changed the elk and deer behavior

00:18:01.690 --> 00:18:03.609
And that's why you see if you were because they

00:18:03.609 --> 00:18:05.589
move quick and they stay on the move, right?

00:18:06.130 --> 00:18:10.630
Yes Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And you know, that's so

00:18:10.630 --> 00:18:12.789
interesting to me that the, you know, you were

00:18:12.789 --> 00:18:16.910
kind of told specifically, don't go participate

00:18:16.910 --> 00:18:21.109
in the wolf reintroduction or release, even though,

00:18:21.109 --> 00:18:23.990
you know, potentially I think one of the other

00:18:23.990 --> 00:18:26.569
things Steve McGone's been on the on the podcast

00:18:26.569 --> 00:18:28.690
on this season, one of the things they talked

00:18:28.690 --> 00:18:31.190
about was they were actually not only afraid

00:18:31.190 --> 00:18:33.230
for the wolves, but there were some threats against

00:18:33.230 --> 00:18:36.599
US Fish and Wildlife Service personnel. being

00:18:36.599 --> 00:18:39.119
involved. So, you know, it goes beyond a wolf

00:18:39.119 --> 00:18:41.000
protection thing. It's a public safety thing

00:18:41.000 --> 00:18:45.180
and an officer safety thing. So I remember you

00:18:45.180 --> 00:18:48.519
were even involved with Agent Scott Bergonier's

00:18:48.519 --> 00:18:50.700
investigation of the Tim Sundals case, which

00:18:50.700 --> 00:18:53.599
is kind of the infamous poison involved. Yeah,

00:18:53.880 --> 00:18:57.160
deeply involved, right? On that thing. Yeah,

00:18:57.200 --> 00:19:00.079
I'm sorry. Well, he needed us and we needed him

00:19:00.079 --> 00:19:07.390
desperately. Mm hmm. So there was. What we needed

00:19:07.390 --> 00:19:11.210
from you guys is we needed access to the Ashland

00:19:11.210 --> 00:19:15.210
lab. The Idaho State Crime Lab was not going

00:19:15.210 --> 00:19:18.569
to deal with, they had no knowledge of poison.

00:19:19.109 --> 00:19:22.109
Interesting. Okay. Plus we needed DNA from the

00:19:22.109 --> 00:19:26.029
meatballs. Right. And so we needed that resource,

00:19:26.029 --> 00:19:28.509
which we didn't have at that point in time, without

00:19:28.509 --> 00:19:33.609
a federal nexus. And then we desperately needed

00:19:33.609 --> 00:19:39.490
a potential jury. outside this county. Mmm. You

00:19:39.490 --> 00:19:42.549
wanted a federal jury. Yeah. You know, so that

00:19:42.549 --> 00:19:46.769
first investigative day, I think there was four

00:19:46.769 --> 00:19:52.529
of us uniform guys. So three of us in the uniform,

00:19:52.589 --> 00:19:58.329
myself as a regional investigator and Scott on

00:19:58.329 --> 00:20:02.009
the scene, which was a, it was like a four mile

00:20:02.009 --> 00:20:10.440
scene in February. And finally, I found a bait

00:20:10.440 --> 00:20:13.240
that had been pecked on by a bird. I looked over

00:20:13.240 --> 00:20:16.599
at the nearest ponderosa pine, walked over there,

00:20:16.619 --> 00:20:19.720
and sure enough, there was a dead magpie. And

00:20:19.720 --> 00:20:23.279
that was the golden goose, because that magpie

00:20:23.279 --> 00:20:27.839
was the federal nexus. And Scott was very pleased,

00:20:27.859 --> 00:20:31.380
and so was I. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah, even though

00:20:31.380 --> 00:20:33.299
you suspect those meatballs are being put out

00:20:33.299 --> 00:20:36.049
for wolves without a dead wolf. You don't have

00:20:36.049 --> 00:20:38.589
the ESA, so you've got Migratory Bird Treaty

00:20:38.589 --> 00:20:42.470
Act puts the case in federal hands. Yes, exactly.

00:20:43.430 --> 00:20:48.170
Fascinating. That's fascinating. He never did

00:20:48.170 --> 00:20:50.549
kill a wolf on that thing. We saw wolf tracks

00:20:50.549 --> 00:20:53.509
that were older from when he put them down. The

00:20:53.509 --> 00:20:57.509
whole case started when a kid was up there looking

00:20:57.509 --> 00:21:01.809
for deer antlers, sheds, and his dog got poisoned.

00:21:01.970 --> 00:21:04.289
Dog got poisoned, yeah. That's how we got the

00:21:04.289 --> 00:21:07.549
call. Yeah. Yeah. There's so many things about

00:21:07.549 --> 00:21:09.769
that case that are so interesting, but, you know,

00:21:10.029 --> 00:21:12.690
to you and me to hear about, oh, it got a four

00:21:12.690 --> 00:21:15.390
mile wide crime scene. That's like that means

00:21:15.390 --> 00:21:18.029
nothing to us because that kind of happens occasionally,

00:21:18.029 --> 00:21:20.950
right? With wildlife stuff, you might have a

00:21:20.950 --> 00:21:24.369
pretty big crime scene. But for a local police

00:21:24.369 --> 00:21:27.710
officer or a local detective, that's like mind

00:21:27.710 --> 00:21:31.180
blowing to have a crime scene. That you're going

00:21:31.180 --> 00:21:35.420
to process with five officers. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

00:21:35.420 --> 00:21:38.460
Yeah. So given what your agency had told you

00:21:38.460 --> 00:21:41.480
about not just no, but hell no, don't go anywhere

00:21:41.480 --> 00:21:44.359
near the wolf release. What was their reaction

00:21:44.359 --> 00:21:47.119
to you being involved in this case? Well, fortunately,

00:21:47.299 --> 00:21:52.420
by then that smoke had blown away. OK. Earlier

00:21:52.420 --> 00:21:57.880
on. After the release, we were told to not assist

00:21:57.880 --> 00:22:02.380
you guys at all. Wow, you guys were my friends

00:22:02.380 --> 00:22:05.359
that I'd worked numerous cases on right, you

00:22:05.359 --> 00:22:07.980
know I'm living in the backyard of these wolves

00:22:07.980 --> 00:22:13.460
and and there was a few wolves dying and so What

00:22:13.460 --> 00:22:17.579
I did and I suspect my fellow officers here state

00:22:17.579 --> 00:22:23.039
guys When something happened I did as much under

00:22:23.039 --> 00:22:26.440
the covers as possible as far as running guys

00:22:26.440 --> 00:22:31.700
hunting licenses maybe even taking a picture

00:22:31.700 --> 00:22:35.500
of a residence, getting vehicle descriptions

00:22:35.500 --> 00:22:39.180
or whatever I could do without letting my bosses

00:22:39.180 --> 00:22:42.940
know what's going on. Yeah. Wow. I mean, at some

00:22:42.940 --> 00:22:45.900
point in time, the state saw the writing on the

00:22:45.900 --> 00:22:48.420
wall that we were going to be taken over after

00:22:48.420 --> 00:22:51.339
delisting and we needed to get our acts together.

00:22:51.940 --> 00:22:54.039
So fortunately, that period had transitioned

00:22:54.039 --> 00:22:57.480
when Sundals did his little magic meatball trick.

00:22:58.000 --> 00:23:01.230
Yeah. Gotcha. Okay. So by that time you guys

00:23:01.230 --> 00:23:03.769
realize we got to, we got to step up our game

00:23:03.769 --> 00:23:06.950
on getting familiar with the Wolf cases and involved

00:23:06.950 --> 00:23:12.089
in them. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um, let me ask you

00:23:12.089 --> 00:23:14.829
something about the Sandals case. Cause by, uh,

00:23:14.829 --> 00:23:16.769
we did talk about that in a previous episode

00:23:16.769 --> 00:23:19.849
this season. Uh, there was, there was this, uh,

00:23:19.930 --> 00:23:22.720
collection or this Maybe a little bit of a joke

00:23:22.720 --> 00:23:25.440
about the collection of some yellow snow at the

00:23:25.440 --> 00:23:30.740
scene. Do you remember the story behind that?

00:23:31.460 --> 00:23:33.920
It ended up getting collected, but did everybody

00:23:33.920 --> 00:23:35.980
agree that it was going to be valuable or was

00:23:35.980 --> 00:23:38.519
it worthwhile to pick up? No, no, it was. It

00:23:38.519 --> 00:23:43.950
was pretty crazy because. One of our guys, Dane

00:23:43.950 --> 00:23:46.250
Cook, went up there with another guy, another

00:23:46.250 --> 00:23:49.329
officer, to make sure we hadn't left any meatballs

00:23:49.329 --> 00:23:51.410
up there. Of course, they found five or something

00:23:51.410 --> 00:23:56.150
like that. Wow. At one point, Dane found a place

00:23:56.150 --> 00:23:59.609
where whoever did it walked over with his air

00:23:59.609 --> 00:24:03.029
bob boots and pushed one of the meatballs under

00:24:03.029 --> 00:24:09.289
the snow crust and took a pee. Dane took a urine

00:24:09.289 --> 00:24:15.900
sample. We just wrote a report, being the good

00:24:15.900 --> 00:24:20.000
officer of the IS. And so that just sat there.

00:24:20.019 --> 00:24:22.920
And of course, when we eventually charged Sundles,

00:24:23.220 --> 00:24:26.180
that went on discovery and it just sat out there.

00:24:26.819 --> 00:24:31.680
And I think at one point in time, I Googled DNA

00:24:31.680 --> 00:24:37.500
urine. And normally, you don't get DNA out of

00:24:37.500 --> 00:24:40.829
urine because your kidneys cut it all up. Very

00:24:40.829 --> 00:24:43.930
hard to get it, yeah. And then out of the blue,

00:24:44.490 --> 00:24:48.849
Sundel's attorney said, we want that urine tested.

00:24:49.750 --> 00:24:54.210
They did? It shocked us. Yeah, it shocked me.

00:24:54.569 --> 00:24:58.309
And for a long time, I wondered why he wanted

00:24:58.309 --> 00:25:04.390
that. And I think I know. I think he realized

00:25:04.390 --> 00:25:08.210
the odds of having Sundel's DNA in there was

00:25:10.270 --> 00:25:15.309
virtually nil. And yet, could Dane Cook's DNA

00:25:15.309 --> 00:25:18.390
be in there? Could the guy doing the test, could

00:25:18.390 --> 00:25:23.069
he get his DNA in there or whatever? Right. And

00:25:23.069 --> 00:25:27.750
so we did it. And I take it as a compliment because

00:25:27.750 --> 00:25:32.410
his attorney said absolutely no way was Tony

00:25:32.410 --> 00:25:35.690
Latham going to be the one to swab Tim Sundles.

00:25:36.710 --> 00:25:40.359
We got to back up. Because the the really coolest

00:25:40.359 --> 00:25:43.940
part of that whole urine story is that the reason

00:25:43.940 --> 00:25:46.660
that the DNA ended up in the urine is because

00:25:46.660 --> 00:25:49.039
Sundles had a cold the week before. Right. And

00:25:49.039 --> 00:25:51.619
that's when DNA ends up in your urine. And we

00:25:51.619 --> 00:25:53.980
knew he'd get a cold because we were watching

00:25:53.980 --> 00:25:56.759
him. I had been watching him before the poison

00:25:56.759 --> 00:26:00.720
on a forum that he kept posting on. And that

00:26:00.720 --> 00:26:05.119
turned out to be a huge bit of our search warrant.

00:26:05.380 --> 00:26:08.720
What he said on there. So we knew, he said he's

00:26:08.720 --> 00:26:11.380
feeling measly or something, but something to

00:26:11.380 --> 00:26:14.559
that effect. And because of that, he's just peeing

00:26:14.559 --> 00:26:18.720
out DNA left and right. Yeah, it was unbelievable.

00:26:18.859 --> 00:26:21.980
In fact, when Scott called me up and said, we

00:26:21.980 --> 00:26:24.519
just got the information on the DNA from the

00:26:24.519 --> 00:26:28.319
urine. And he said, I'm going to read this to

00:26:28.319 --> 00:26:32.099
you and tell me if I'm seeing what I think it

00:26:32.099 --> 00:26:36.170
says. You know, he disbelieved. this lab report

00:26:36.170 --> 00:26:39.369
saying, yeah, Tim Sundl's DNA was in the urine,

00:26:39.470 --> 00:26:44.130
you know? Yeah. Yeah. So that was amazing. And

00:26:44.130 --> 00:26:47.029
right after that, Sundl's agreed to play. And

00:26:47.029 --> 00:26:49.109
that was that. The one thing I always heard and

00:26:49.109 --> 00:26:52.589
I. Did you guys make fun of Dane Cook for collecting

00:26:52.589 --> 00:26:55.210
that urine when he first did it? Or did you think?

00:26:56.269 --> 00:26:59.650
What the hell did you get that for? So funny.

00:26:59.950 --> 00:27:02.230
He must have loved that DNA, but it was from

00:27:02.230 --> 00:27:05.660
Elk and deer and whatnot. Yeah, yeah. Dane must

00:27:05.660 --> 00:27:07.900
have loved that. He got teased for it and it

00:27:07.900 --> 00:27:11.200
turned out to be like the big piece of evidence.

00:27:11.339 --> 00:27:16.859
It was the big hammer in the end. Well, we're

00:27:16.859 --> 00:27:20.059
actually, I had Jan not necessarily talk about

00:27:20.059 --> 00:27:21.839
the Sundles case, but I think your perspective

00:27:21.839 --> 00:27:24.400
on it is really good because we have talked about

00:27:24.400 --> 00:27:28.279
it. When it comes to predators that are listed

00:27:28.279 --> 00:27:31.259
as endangered and threatened in the in the west

00:27:31.259 --> 00:27:34.099
the predators that can kill people there is an

00:27:34.099 --> 00:27:36.480
interesting provision in the u .s. fish and wildlife

00:27:36.480 --> 00:27:39.559
service the federal rules. That one of the exceptions

00:27:39.559 --> 00:27:41.980
one of the times you can kill them is in self

00:27:41.980 --> 00:27:44.200
defense right which makes sense of course is

00:27:44.200 --> 00:27:48.259
a grizzly bear sure kill you so a lot of times

00:27:48.259 --> 00:27:51.049
when when grizzly bears are killed. state officers

00:27:51.049 --> 00:27:53.170
or US Fish and Wildlife Service agents, one of

00:27:53.170 --> 00:27:55.470
the first things they do is they open an investigation

00:27:55.470 --> 00:27:58.410
and they're going to, part of that investigation

00:27:58.410 --> 00:28:02.089
is going to try to either confirm or disprove

00:28:02.089 --> 00:28:05.049
a claim of self -defense. So those are carefully

00:28:05.049 --> 00:28:07.170
investigated, almost like murder investigations,

00:28:07.269 --> 00:28:12.750
just to see what the evidence supports. Wolves

00:28:12.750 --> 00:28:18.549
don't really, they don't attack people. Technically

00:28:18.549 --> 00:28:21.549
speaking, that defense could be available if

00:28:21.549 --> 00:28:23.829
a person killed a wolf that was trying to kill

00:28:23.829 --> 00:28:27.150
the person. And in fact, if I remember correctly,

00:28:27.509 --> 00:28:29.930
there was some incident involving this notorious

00:28:29.930 --> 00:28:32.809
Sundals years before where he had admitted to

00:28:32.809 --> 00:28:34.670
killing a wolf, but he claimed he did it in self

00:28:34.670 --> 00:28:37.369
-defense. Do you remember the facts around that?

00:28:38.430 --> 00:28:41.690
I think it was about 18 months before he put

00:28:41.690 --> 00:28:46.220
the poison down. And he came out in a public

00:28:46.220 --> 00:28:50.579
big game meeting, if I recall first, and admitted

00:28:50.579 --> 00:28:54.779
killing it. I think he said it veered in towards

00:28:54.779 --> 00:28:59.420
his wife. Yeah. And so it was a stunning thing.

00:29:00.720 --> 00:29:04.859
And he announced that like a month after it happened.

00:29:05.339 --> 00:29:12.359
And it was a radio -collared wolf. became certainly

00:29:12.359 --> 00:29:17.500
regional in the Northwest information that this

00:29:17.500 --> 00:29:20.279
guy had admitted killing a wolf that had attacked

00:29:20.279 --> 00:29:23.940
his wife. It was a huge news thing. I lost track

00:29:23.940 --> 00:29:26.880
of how many newspapers covered it, but it was

00:29:26.880 --> 00:29:31.380
huge. Yeah. Yeah. I think, if I remember right,

00:29:31.680 --> 00:29:33.880
that might've been Agent McGone investigated

00:29:33.880 --> 00:29:37.619
that. I'm not sure he might've, but my recollection

00:29:37.619 --> 00:29:40.059
is that It couldn't be proved one way or the

00:29:40.059 --> 00:29:42.480
other that it was self -defense or not. So they

00:29:42.480 --> 00:29:48.740
just kind of dropped. He burned the radio caller

00:29:48.740 --> 00:29:53.819
and he didn't do it for a month. And then when

00:29:53.819 --> 00:29:57.700
McGone went in there, he wouldn't take him to

00:29:57.700 --> 00:30:00.019
the kill site without the sheriff there because

00:30:00.019 --> 00:30:03.619
he said that they were going to do him in or

00:30:03.619 --> 00:30:06.380
something. Yeah. Yeah, this is a guy who had

00:30:06.380 --> 00:30:08.680
bumper stickers on his car actually encouraging

00:30:08.680 --> 00:30:11.900
people to eliminate a fed. He was selling those.

00:30:11.980 --> 00:30:14.960
Yeah. And I don't think he was afraid of feds.

00:30:15.000 --> 00:30:16.759
I think feds should have been afraid of him.

00:30:17.079 --> 00:30:19.279
Well, I don't know if you remember, but there

00:30:19.279 --> 00:30:23.799
was a period there about this time where feds

00:30:23.799 --> 00:30:27.799
were reported were termed jackbooted thugs. Oh,

00:30:27.880 --> 00:30:32.839
yeah. Yeah, yeah. I was going on. It was. Idaho

00:30:32.839 --> 00:30:34.579
representative, I think by the name of Helen

00:30:34.579 --> 00:30:38.819
Chanowith was pushing that and Yeah, yeah. Oh

00:30:38.819 --> 00:30:40.640
it made its way all the way to LA. I've been

00:30:40.640 --> 00:30:46.539
called Jack Boots on your closet back there.

00:30:47.059 --> 00:30:50.400
Yeah Yeah, I've been called that a few times

00:30:50.400 --> 00:30:53.099
by people who ended up being convicted in trial

00:30:56.750 --> 00:31:00.190
So yeah, but later you were involved in another

00:31:00.190 --> 00:31:02.410
interesting investigation that involved the wolf

00:31:02.410 --> 00:31:04.769
killing where the person who killed the wolf

00:31:04.769 --> 00:31:09.529
claimed self -defense. Yeah. Tell us about that.

00:31:09.930 --> 00:31:15.970
Yeah. Because I heard about the report and Dane

00:31:15.970 --> 00:31:18.950
Cook there again was going to go out and investigate

00:31:18.950 --> 00:31:23.130
this. And I was thinking baloney because I'd

00:31:23.130 --> 00:31:28.259
worked in Alaska. Hold on a sec. So first of

00:31:28.259 --> 00:31:30.359
all, Dane Cook, he's a uniformed game warden,

00:31:30.440 --> 00:31:33.400
right? So it's kind of like, yeah, first responders

00:31:33.400 --> 00:31:37.960
that you don't want to go shoplift in his candy

00:31:37.960 --> 00:31:41.400
store. He was a really good game warden. He too

00:31:41.400 --> 00:31:44.819
is retired now, but he went out and I'm hearing

00:31:44.819 --> 00:31:47.160
the stories. I'm just I'm not believing it because

00:31:47.160 --> 00:31:50.480
I had worked in Alaska as a wildland firefighter

00:31:50.480 --> 00:31:55.400
for a decade and. There was a few times I was

00:31:55.400 --> 00:31:58.119
scared to death of grizzlies. And I had this

00:31:58.119 --> 00:32:00.940
fear up there of two things, burning in a helicopter

00:32:00.940 --> 00:32:05.140
or being mauled by a grizzly. Those two things

00:32:05.140 --> 00:32:11.160
I feared. But never once was I in fear of wolves.

00:32:11.779 --> 00:32:14.240
You know, I was around a lot of Inuit people,

00:32:14.339 --> 00:32:17.519
a lot of Athabaskans. We talked a lot about a

00:32:17.519 --> 00:32:20.200
lot of things and nobody was afraid of wolves.

00:32:20.440 --> 00:32:26.109
Nobody. And looking back, during those years

00:32:26.109 --> 00:32:30.430
where now, it was no different than me being

00:32:30.430 --> 00:32:34.049
afraid of coyotes or a skunk or something. I

00:32:34.049 --> 00:32:35.849
got more fear of a skunk maybe, I don't know.

00:32:36.670 --> 00:32:41.829
But it just wasn't a thing. So we get this call

00:32:41.829 --> 00:32:45.329
from an outfitter and said, we had to kill a

00:32:45.329 --> 00:32:48.029
wolf in self -defense. And I didn't know that

00:32:48.029 --> 00:32:50.529
outfitter real well at the time, but Dane went

00:32:50.529 --> 00:32:54.349
up to investigate it. And what the outfitter

00:32:54.349 --> 00:32:57.930
said is he and his client were sitting in sagebrush

00:32:57.930 --> 00:33:03.630
on top of a hill and hunting deer. They're both

00:33:03.630 --> 00:33:07.009
wearing camouflage. There was several inches

00:33:07.009 --> 00:33:11.789
of fresh snow on the ground and suddenly a hundred

00:33:11.789 --> 00:33:14.990
or two hundred yards below them out of a stringer

00:33:14.990 --> 00:33:19.180
of timber. Two wolves came out and the hunter

00:33:19.180 --> 00:33:23.339
stepped up a little bit to look and one of those

00:33:23.339 --> 00:33:26.339
wolves caught that movement and came charging

00:33:26.339 --> 00:33:30.500
up the hill hmm, and then went out of sight because

00:33:30.500 --> 00:33:34.960
the the hill was at a curvature and that so for

00:33:34.960 --> 00:33:38.579
a bit the wolf was out of sight and then suddenly

00:33:38.579 --> 00:33:42.900
that wolf was on them and that the client was

00:33:42.900 --> 00:33:45.480
the only one of the rifle brought his gun up

00:33:45.480 --> 00:33:48.279
from the hip and cut one off and killed that

00:33:48.279 --> 00:33:53.599
wolf at 10 yards. Wow, 10 yards. Yeah. And Dane

00:33:53.599 --> 00:33:57.740
went up there and investigated it. He interviewed

00:33:57.740 --> 00:34:01.559
both of them separately. He went at the outfitter

00:34:01.559 --> 00:34:04.500
caped into the kill site. It was beautifully

00:34:04.500 --> 00:34:08.139
preserved as far as where the two wolves had

00:34:08.139 --> 00:34:10.599
come out, where the one wolf had come roaring

00:34:10.599 --> 00:34:14.809
up the hill with long strides and then the dead

00:34:14.809 --> 00:34:17.730
wolf 10 yards from where those guys were sitting

00:34:17.730 --> 00:34:22.090
in the sagebrush. Wow. 10 yards. And I don't

00:34:22.090 --> 00:34:24.389
know how fast the wolf runs, but pretty fast.

00:34:24.670 --> 00:34:27.989
It's pretty fast. So it sounds like Dane did

00:34:27.989 --> 00:34:31.309
a pretty thorough investigation. He looked at

00:34:31.309 --> 00:34:33.250
wolf tracks to see that it was running toward

00:34:33.250 --> 00:34:36.130
them and all of that, right? Yeah. Yeah. But

00:34:36.130 --> 00:34:43.400
I'm going, yeah, I don't believe this. 10 years

00:34:43.400 --> 00:34:48.599
playing with wolves or being around wolves. Wait,

00:34:48.619 --> 00:34:52.179
before you talk about your investigation, big

00:34:52.179 --> 00:34:54.480
difference here between what happened with Tim

00:34:54.480 --> 00:34:56.760
Sundals and these two hunters. By the way, when

00:34:56.760 --> 00:34:58.739
you say an outfitter, you're talking about basically

00:34:58.739 --> 00:35:01.019
a hunting guide that somebody hires to take you

00:35:01.019 --> 00:35:04.119
out. No, it's okay. Most of my listeners will

00:35:04.119 --> 00:35:08.519
know that, but not all of them. No, no, it's

00:35:08.519 --> 00:35:13.940
okay. That's my job to like fix them. But, um,

00:35:15.260 --> 00:35:18.139
unlike Sundles, these, these two hunters, when

00:35:18.139 --> 00:35:21.980
they shot this wolf, they immediately self -reported.

00:35:22.139 --> 00:35:25.280
They didn't destroy any collars. They didn't

00:35:25.280 --> 00:35:28.880
try to hide the body. It didn't wait for a month.

00:35:29.000 --> 00:35:32.400
Yeah, exactly. Yeah, exactly. Okay. But you're

00:35:32.400 --> 00:35:34.920
still suspicious just because you know wolf behavior

00:35:34.920 --> 00:35:37.599
and wolves don't attack people. So what did you

00:35:37.599 --> 00:35:40.650
do? Got to keep in mind, this is in that time

00:35:40.650 --> 00:35:46.369
period where my neighbors, the residents of Lemhi

00:35:46.369 --> 00:35:50.610
County in central Idaho, didn't take their kids

00:35:50.610 --> 00:35:54.670
to the school bus drop and leave them there because

00:35:54.670 --> 00:35:56.929
they believed the wolves were going to come kill

00:35:56.929 --> 00:36:01.750
their kids. That was kind of a general belief.

00:36:02.190 --> 00:36:06.510
They had these new four -legged... Animals with

00:36:06.510 --> 00:36:09.710
giant fangs that ate everything and it was no

00:36:09.710 --> 00:36:12.389
longer safe to be out there Unbelievable, you

00:36:12.389 --> 00:36:15.130
know, which is crazy for me, you know and in

00:36:15.130 --> 00:36:18.289
but That's why I just I just didn't believe the

00:36:18.289 --> 00:36:23.690
whole thing happened You know Dane said it happened

00:36:23.690 --> 00:36:26.630
the way those guys said it happened and Dane's

00:36:26.630 --> 00:36:29.170
a great interviewer and so there was that end

00:36:29.170 --> 00:36:32.389
of it But so I went out and got that wolf put

00:36:32.389 --> 00:36:37.159
him on the tailgate of my truck and skinned it

00:36:37.159 --> 00:36:39.199
back, because the wound was through the neck.

00:36:39.920 --> 00:36:43.179
And I skinned that thing back and found the entrance

00:36:43.179 --> 00:36:45.860
wound, found the exit wound, and I put a quarter

00:36:45.860 --> 00:36:50.539
inch dowel through that bullet wound. And it

00:36:50.539 --> 00:36:54.699
told the story, the rest of the story. As soon

00:36:54.699 --> 00:36:57.800
as that guy stood up and brought his rifle up,

00:36:57.920 --> 00:37:01.530
in that instant, that... Tenth of a second that

00:37:01.530 --> 00:37:04.929
wolf realized it wasn't a trail mix mule deer.

00:37:04.949 --> 00:37:09.489
He was gonna have as a snack and Turned and took

00:37:09.489 --> 00:37:13.050
that bullet as he as he turned that that that

00:37:13.050 --> 00:37:16.909
wolf was Beyond 90 degrees and it was already

00:37:16.909 --> 00:37:20.070
in retreat and had realized its mistake that

00:37:20.070 --> 00:37:26.190
these were humans Not food. I see It is and I

00:37:26.190 --> 00:37:29.230
was so pleased to do that And I actually took

00:37:29.230 --> 00:37:33.429
the photographs that I think I gave to you on

00:37:33.429 --> 00:37:36.510
your webpage and I took them back to the outfitter

00:37:36.510 --> 00:37:40.510
and sat those guys, him down, I think the client

00:37:40.510 --> 00:37:42.869
was still there, sat them down individually in

00:37:42.869 --> 00:37:46.230
my truck, showed them those pictures and their

00:37:46.230 --> 00:37:50.050
jaws dropped. They realized at that point in

00:37:50.050 --> 00:37:52.929
time, that wolf wasn't going to get them. And

00:37:52.929 --> 00:37:55.969
there was a, this is near Gibbonsville, which

00:37:55.969 --> 00:37:59.679
is, you can't even buy gas there. But there's

00:37:59.679 --> 00:38:02.000
a great restaurant there, The Broken Arrow. I

00:38:02.000 --> 00:38:05.719
went up there. I knew the owner quite well. And

00:38:05.719 --> 00:38:09.099
I said, Rose, because the news was all over the

00:38:09.099 --> 00:38:13.420
world about this wolf attack. And everybody was

00:38:13.420 --> 00:38:15.300
going, yeah, we're right. We can't drop our kids

00:38:15.300 --> 00:38:17.840
off the bus. And I went up there and I said,

00:38:17.900 --> 00:38:20.679
Rose, this is what happened. And here's where

00:38:20.679 --> 00:38:24.139
the bullet went after the wolf had realized what

00:38:24.139 --> 00:38:26.659
was going on and was trying to get away. And

00:38:26.659 --> 00:38:30.260
boom. The wolf was dead and I actually left that

00:38:30.260 --> 00:38:33.000
photograph. She posted it up on her board and

00:38:33.000 --> 00:38:36.900
and I I think I'm pretty sure that de -escalated

00:38:36.900 --> 00:38:40.679
that. Good for you. Of course, it's good for

00:38:40.679 --> 00:38:44.480
you. Yeah. Yeah, I saw you really hate black

00:38:44.480 --> 00:38:47.360
wolf. Yeah, you did send me the photos which

00:38:47.360 --> 00:38:49.539
I will put on the website. There are there, you

00:38:49.539 --> 00:38:53.039
know, there the skin is peeled off. So anybody

00:38:53.039 --> 00:38:56.699
who looks should be prepared but. It does show

00:38:56.699 --> 00:38:58.239
the dowel going through it, which I think is

00:38:58.239 --> 00:39:01.199
a really great investigative step that you took

00:39:01.199 --> 00:39:03.500
because it does show the direction of the bullet.

00:39:05.079 --> 00:39:07.139
So we will put that on the website. Thanks for

00:39:07.139 --> 00:39:10.099
sending those to me. So I have a couple of questions

00:39:10.099 --> 00:39:13.219
about that. One is, you know, based on your investigation,

00:39:13.380 --> 00:39:15.739
it sounds like your conclusion was that the wolf

00:39:15.739 --> 00:39:18.780
was not attacking the hunters. Absolutely. It

00:39:18.780 --> 00:39:24.130
was not. No question. But I know. Know some of

00:39:24.130 --> 00:39:26.610
my listeners might say well, why did they shoot

00:39:26.610 --> 00:39:29.170
it then? So were they justified in shooting it

00:39:29.170 --> 00:39:32.530
in your opinion? Absolutely. Absolutely. I may

00:39:32.530 --> 00:39:36.090
have done that with a wolf charging at full speed

00:39:36.090 --> 00:39:39.570
and at 10 yards I get my gun up and here it comes

00:39:39.570 --> 00:39:42.269
and it's right on top of me. Yeah, I thought

00:39:42.269 --> 00:39:46.670
it was justified. Yeah Yeah, so then the next

00:39:46.670 --> 00:39:48.269
question I know some people are gonna have and

00:39:48.269 --> 00:39:50.570
you and I are gonna explain a little bit of what

00:39:50.570 --> 00:39:55.150
a law enforcement tactic or law enforcement,

00:39:56.630 --> 00:40:00.409
something we're taught that is true. And that

00:40:00.409 --> 00:40:02.630
is someone will say, okay, well, if this wolf

00:40:02.630 --> 00:40:06.130
turned, why did the hunter shoot? And so do you

00:40:06.130 --> 00:40:08.409
remember from your academy or tactical training

00:40:08.409 --> 00:40:10.949
days, something called the OODA loop? Do you

00:40:10.949 --> 00:40:15.030
remember that? You know, I think I recall that,

00:40:15.030 --> 00:40:17.929
but I don't know what it is at this point in

00:40:17.929 --> 00:40:21.849
my life. Thank goodness. Please tell me. Yeah,

00:40:21.849 --> 00:40:23.730
I think we should explain it a little because

00:40:23.730 --> 00:40:25.570
I used to I used to be a tactical instructor

00:40:25.570 --> 00:40:31.309
so OODA loop is O O D A and it stands for observe

00:40:31.309 --> 00:40:35.570
orient decide and act and It's really a fascinating

00:40:35.570 --> 00:40:39.110
thing if you stand with your you know any listener

00:40:39.110 --> 00:40:41.570
today who listens this podcast I want you to

00:40:41.570 --> 00:40:44.469
do this experiment with your best friend your

00:40:44.469 --> 00:40:48.389
spouse girlfriend boyfriend, whatever Have them

00:40:48.389 --> 00:40:50.989
stand right in front of you within arms reach

00:40:50.989 --> 00:40:53.429
and tell them that you're gonna reach out and

00:40:53.429 --> 00:40:56.230
touch them With your left hand on their right

00:40:56.230 --> 00:40:58.869
shoulder. Tell them I'm gonna do that I'm gonna

00:40:58.869 --> 00:41:01.250
reach out and touch you on your right shoulder

00:41:01.250 --> 00:41:04.690
with my left hand Okay, don't let me do it. Don't

00:41:04.690 --> 00:41:08.289
hurt me, but don't let me do it Even with them

00:41:08.289 --> 00:41:12.369
not knowing your hands both you got your hands

00:41:12.369 --> 00:41:15.130
at the side You will be able to touch their shoulder

00:41:15.130 --> 00:41:17.269
before they'll be able to block your hand and

00:41:17.269 --> 00:41:21.309
the reason for that is because. Yeah and you

00:41:21.309 --> 00:41:24.570
are ahead of them on the loop and what we do

00:41:24.570 --> 00:41:28.130
when we when we just be exist in a conscious

00:41:28.130 --> 00:41:30.849
state day to day walking down the street going

00:41:30.849 --> 00:41:34.670
into a seven eleven whatever it is you're always

00:41:34.670 --> 00:41:37.210
observing orienting deciding and acting and it

00:41:37.210 --> 00:41:39.389
might just be walking and stepping up on a curb

00:41:39.389 --> 00:41:42.469
when you. Observe the curb coming you orient

00:41:42.469 --> 00:41:44.289
to the fact that you're gonna need to step up

00:41:44.289 --> 00:41:47.429
You decide to step and then you do it The problem

00:41:47.429 --> 00:41:50.429
is that when you are reacting to somebody else's

00:41:50.429 --> 00:41:53.530
you're behind them on the OODA loop So that's

00:41:53.530 --> 00:41:55.590
why I will always be able to touch you on the

00:41:55.590 --> 00:42:00.949
shoulder always Yeah, yeah, and so what happened

00:42:00.949 --> 00:42:05.409
movies were the gunslinger sees the guy drawing

00:42:05.409 --> 00:42:07.909
and out draws him doesn't never gonna happen.

00:42:08.150 --> 00:42:11.179
Yeah Yeah, exactly. And police are taught this

00:42:11.179 --> 00:42:13.400
because it's very important because television

00:42:13.400 --> 00:42:15.960
will teach you that you should not. You're not

00:42:15.960 --> 00:42:18.019
authorized to shoot someone until they point

00:42:18.019 --> 00:42:20.119
a gun at you. And that's not true, because if

00:42:20.119 --> 00:42:22.320
you wait for somebody to raise, if you see somebody

00:42:22.320 --> 00:42:24.380
with a gun and you wait for them to raise it,

00:42:24.719 --> 00:42:26.699
they will shoot you before you can shoot them.

00:42:27.000 --> 00:42:31.480
It will happen. So. The wolf was ahead of the

00:42:31.480 --> 00:42:36.400
hunters on the OODA loop. And by the time the

00:42:36.400 --> 00:42:39.679
hunters observed and oriented and decided to

00:42:39.679 --> 00:42:42.619
act, you know, the wolf had turned, but they

00:42:42.619 --> 00:42:46.880
hadn't acted yet. You know what I mean? It had

00:42:46.880 --> 00:42:52.300
to happen based on what Dean's diagrams and photographs

00:42:52.300 --> 00:42:56.900
and the bullet track information. It all happened

00:42:56.900 --> 00:43:01.579
in a millisecond. When when that guy probably

00:43:01.579 --> 00:43:04.360
started to pull the trigger it was a front on

00:43:04.360 --> 00:43:07.460
assault and by the time that bullet went off.

00:43:08.539 --> 00:43:13.219
The wolf was scared to death. Yeah yeah I think

00:43:13.219 --> 00:43:15.639
that's a really interesting case but the best

00:43:15.639 --> 00:43:18.239
part about it for me is that the hunters self

00:43:18.239 --> 00:43:24.449
self -reported. Did you get a sense from them

00:43:24.449 --> 00:43:26.409
whether they were like excited that they'd killed

00:43:26.409 --> 00:43:28.110
a wolf, that they were pissed off at wolves?

00:43:28.170 --> 00:43:29.690
Because they were out there deer hunting. What

00:43:29.690 --> 00:43:32.269
was there? Did you get any sense from them? I

00:43:32.269 --> 00:43:36.409
think they they kind of reveled in the in the

00:43:36.409 --> 00:43:39.329
moment that they'd been attacked by a wolf and

00:43:39.329 --> 00:43:43.550
then, you know, we were able to defend themselves.

00:43:43.670 --> 00:43:46.010
They were. Yeah, but they were still in shock

00:43:46.010 --> 00:43:48.989
over the whole thing when I showed them the pictures.

00:43:49.030 --> 00:43:53.119
Yeah. Yeah, I mean and seem to be bragging about

00:43:53.119 --> 00:43:56.480
it or or you know Aren't we really cool and we

00:43:56.480 --> 00:43:58.179
finally got one of those buggers or anything

00:43:58.179 --> 00:44:02.159
like that? No Right and and you mentioned this

00:44:02.159 --> 00:44:04.639
was a black wolf and and anybody who has not

00:44:04.639 --> 00:44:06.980
seen a wolf in the wild Wolves are big. They're

00:44:06.980 --> 00:44:12.880
really big and They're really tall. Yeah, they're

00:44:12.880 --> 00:44:18.159
tall feet Yes, you know, but I've got a fat black

00:44:18.159 --> 00:44:22.059
lab actually she's brown And you know one point

00:44:22.059 --> 00:44:25.019
in time she was 90 pounds and that's a wolf Yeah,

00:44:25.019 --> 00:44:28.659
the big or weight wise isn't any bigger than

00:44:28.659 --> 00:44:32.179
any smaller than a gray wolf Yeah, I think they're

00:44:32.179 --> 00:44:35.579
really big male wolves. Maybe get to 120 something

00:44:35.579 --> 00:44:38.780
like that Yeah, sure. Yes, that'd be a huge wolf

00:44:38.780 --> 00:44:42.719
rarely though. Yeah And, you know, I've personally

00:44:42.719 --> 00:44:46.179
encountered wolves on foot in Yellowstone on

00:44:46.179 --> 00:44:49.139
a trail back country. And I had an incident where

00:44:49.139 --> 00:44:51.320
14 wolves came out of the woods pretty much right

00:44:51.320 --> 00:44:54.739
in front of me. And it's you can tell instantly

00:44:54.739 --> 00:44:56.760
it's not a dog. They're very intimidating because

00:44:56.760 --> 00:44:59.500
they're big. But, you know, I would never felt

00:44:59.500 --> 00:45:01.340
threatened for a moment because they just looked

00:45:01.340 --> 00:45:03.280
at me and then they howled and then they walked

00:45:03.280 --> 00:45:05.719
away. As long as you don't make eye contact.

00:45:05.860 --> 00:45:09.460
And I'm saying that as a joke. Or as long as

00:45:09.460 --> 00:45:11.840
you're not wearing a little red riding hood cape

00:45:11.840 --> 00:45:18.699
and carrying a basket. Right. You've talked to

00:45:18.699 --> 00:45:22.280
me before about something you call the Wolf Wars.

00:45:23.480 --> 00:45:27.019
What do you talk about? In that entire period

00:45:27.019 --> 00:45:33.260
of my career, where the whole issue was so blown

00:45:33.260 --> 00:45:37.280
up, so blown out of proportion, it was just crazy

00:45:37.280 --> 00:45:42.320
times. And it didn't make it easy for Game Wardens

00:45:42.320 --> 00:45:45.980
because a lot of people were blaming the release

00:45:45.980 --> 00:45:53.000
on Game Wardens. But I look back on it as I'm

00:45:53.000 --> 00:45:56.300
damn glad I was there during the Wolf Wars because

00:45:56.300 --> 00:45:59.460
it made life more interesting. It was a crazy

00:45:59.460 --> 00:46:02.320
period. I'm glad I'm there. I'm glad I'm not

00:46:02.320 --> 00:46:06.300
in that wolf war anymore. But anyway, it was

00:46:06.300 --> 00:46:08.920
interesting. Yeah. So why do you think there

00:46:08.920 --> 00:46:11.579
is such hatred of wolves in states like Idaho,

00:46:11.579 --> 00:46:15.420
Montana, and Wyoming? Well, you know, I've been

00:46:15.420 --> 00:46:18.380
thinking about that for a long time. And certainly

00:46:18.380 --> 00:46:21.900
yesterday and today, knowing that we're going

00:46:21.900 --> 00:46:24.460
to be talking about that, I've been doing some

00:46:24.460 --> 00:46:29.900
thinking. And I think what it was... is everybody's

00:46:29.900 --> 00:46:33.980
got their baseline. And those guys, the hunters,

00:46:34.239 --> 00:46:36.840
the sportsmen of Idaho, probably non -residents,

00:46:37.739 --> 00:46:39.840
were thinking that the wolves were going to eat

00:46:39.840 --> 00:46:42.559
everything and those days were all over with.

00:46:42.679 --> 00:46:45.260
In fact, some of those claims that the wolves

00:46:45.260 --> 00:46:52.179
were reintroduced to make it so there was no

00:46:52.179 --> 00:46:54.380
wildlife to hunt so the government can take the

00:46:54.380 --> 00:46:57.230
guns away. Don't know whether he actually believed

00:46:57.230 --> 00:47:01.090
that but he said it and You know, I'm sure some

00:47:01.090 --> 00:47:05.610
of his followers cult members Sucked up on that.

00:47:05.929 --> 00:47:08.090
Yeah, so I think that's what it was. They're

00:47:08.090 --> 00:47:10.590
baseline They were worried that all the elk were

00:47:10.590 --> 00:47:15.550
gonna be the deer would go away. Yeah, and Life

00:47:15.550 --> 00:47:18.349
would no longer be good So that's what amazes

00:47:18.349 --> 00:47:20.849
me is we know we talked about that was 30 years

00:47:20.849 --> 00:47:24.170
ago that has not proven to be true No, you know

00:47:24.139 --> 00:47:26.539
And so why is it persisting? Why is the wolf

00:47:26.539 --> 00:47:29.460
hatred persisting, do you think? Well, it's certainly

00:47:29.460 --> 00:47:35.179
calmed down. You know, there's a fair amount

00:47:35.179 --> 00:47:39.099
of interest in trapping here. There's a fair

00:47:39.099 --> 00:47:43.920
amount of people. I wouldn't say a fair. You

00:47:43.920 --> 00:47:47.019
know, there might be like 10 guys around here

00:47:47.019 --> 00:47:51.570
trying to trap wolves and there might be. There's

00:47:51.570 --> 00:47:53.750
a lot of hunters here, I'm sure, buy a wolf tag

00:47:53.750 --> 00:47:56.650
in the fall under the hope they'll be able to

00:47:56.650 --> 00:48:06.010
harvest a wolf. Now wolves are fun. They can

00:48:06.010 --> 00:48:09.409
go trap them. They can go shoot them. It's no

00:48:09.409 --> 00:48:11.909
longer this taboo thing they can't legally do

00:48:11.909 --> 00:48:16.730
anything with. It's definitely changed. There's

00:48:16.730 --> 00:48:20.409
still a deep hatred for them. But it's nothing

00:48:20.409 --> 00:48:25.210
like it was. Yeah. A friend of mine has always

00:48:25.210 --> 00:48:27.429
pointed out, he's also a retired Fish and Wildlife

00:48:27.429 --> 00:48:31.090
Special Agent, but he points out that hunters

00:48:31.090 --> 00:48:35.210
in this country can really take a lot of pride

00:48:35.210 --> 00:48:40.849
historically in the things that them and their

00:48:40.849 --> 00:48:44.579
organizations have accomplished. A lot of hunting

00:48:44.579 --> 00:48:47.460
money and a lot of hunters give money to organizations

00:48:47.460 --> 00:48:51.519
that have historically promoted deer habitat

00:48:51.519 --> 00:48:56.900
protection, elk habitat protection, and the growth

00:48:56.900 --> 00:49:00.179
of those species or the thriving of those species.

00:49:00.440 --> 00:49:03.239
And they can take pride in that. Ducks Unlimited,

00:49:03.539 --> 00:49:06.099
classic example, helping set aside habitat for

00:49:06.099 --> 00:49:09.639
ducks. Yes that helps hunters or benefits hunters

00:49:09.639 --> 00:49:11.900
but also benefits anybody who just wants to go

00:49:11.900 --> 00:49:14.800
photograph ducks or sea ducks so they can take

00:49:14.800 --> 00:49:17.360
a lot of pride in bringing helping to bring species

00:49:17.360 --> 00:49:20.940
back or contributing to habitat protection and

00:49:20.940 --> 00:49:24.159
growth. They could do the same thing with walls

00:49:24.159 --> 00:49:27.960
they could really take a lot of pride in getting

00:49:27.960 --> 00:49:31.559
behind making sure that wolves are established

00:49:31.559 --> 00:49:34.280
and prosperous and healthy populations in the

00:49:34.280 --> 00:49:37.480
west in part. to give them opportunities to hunt

00:49:37.480 --> 00:49:40.900
them. There's nothing like hearing a wolf howl

00:49:40.900 --> 00:49:44.179
when you're out. Yes, you are not the first person

00:49:44.179 --> 00:49:46.400
to say that. And I agree with you. There is nothing

00:49:46.400 --> 00:49:50.480
like hearing a wolf howl in the wild. Nothing.

00:49:51.599 --> 00:49:56.139
No. So Idaho, I'm not sure what Idaho's rules

00:49:56.139 --> 00:49:59.000
are. Wyoming's rules are pretty, in my opinion,

00:49:59.219 --> 00:50:02.519
pretty crazy outside of a trophy area that borders

00:50:02.519 --> 00:50:07.139
the Yellowstone National Park. All wolves fall

00:50:07.139 --> 00:50:09.059
into what they call a predator zone, which means

00:50:09.059 --> 00:50:11.599
you can hunt them year round and kill as many

00:50:11.599 --> 00:50:14.139
as you want pretty much. That to me doesn't sound

00:50:14.139 --> 00:50:18.699
like managing wolves. How's Idaho doing in terms

00:50:18.699 --> 00:50:23.460
of managing their wolf population? Well, I want

00:50:23.460 --> 00:50:26.579
to use the word extinct, but the numbers here

00:50:26.579 --> 00:50:30.619
are so low. It used to be I could do this big

00:50:30.619 --> 00:50:33.880
loop from my house and go down the Salmon River

00:50:33.880 --> 00:50:37.130
Road. towards corn crick where they were first

00:50:37.130 --> 00:50:40.690
reintroduced turn up panther crick and come down

00:50:40.690 --> 00:50:44.869
here to my house, which is probably a Three quarters

00:50:44.869 --> 00:50:46.969
of a day drive I could do that in the winter

00:50:46.969 --> 00:50:50.070
and I could find wolf tracks. I could probably

00:50:50.070 --> 00:50:55.869
find a wolf kill but no more You know my wife

00:50:55.869 --> 00:51:02.570
and I hunt elk Cow elk in December in the snow

00:51:03.900 --> 00:51:07.559
And in the last 10 years, I don't recall seeing

00:51:07.559 --> 00:51:11.019
a wolf track. We see lion tracks, but not wolf

00:51:11.019 --> 00:51:17.840
tracks. I've got a friend that traps, and he

00:51:17.840 --> 00:51:21.420
has trapped maybe three wolves since it became

00:51:21.420 --> 00:51:25.219
legal, and for the last two years he's put sets

00:51:25.219 --> 00:51:28.400
up out and then pulled them because he can't

00:51:28.400 --> 00:51:37.199
find a track. They're very scarce here now. And

00:51:37.199 --> 00:51:42.239
I think it's been a political thing for Idaho

00:51:42.239 --> 00:51:46.139
to put them in this place. You know what seems

00:51:46.139 --> 00:51:48.619
crazy to me too is from the state's perspective,

00:51:49.119 --> 00:51:52.199
the states wanted the wolves delisted so they

00:51:52.199 --> 00:51:56.260
could get management of them. But what really

00:51:56.260 --> 00:52:00.219
boggles my mind is if the states mismanage them,

00:52:00.400 --> 00:52:02.079
there's really no question that they're going

00:52:02.079 --> 00:52:04.099
to go back on the endangered species list and

00:52:04.099 --> 00:52:05.579
the Fish and Wildlife Service will take them

00:52:05.579 --> 00:52:11.559
over again. I can see that happening down the

00:52:11.559 --> 00:52:17.539
road. You bet. I don't understand why the states

00:52:17.539 --> 00:52:20.320
are intentionally mismanaging wolves to the point

00:52:20.320 --> 00:52:22.239
that they may lose control over them. Why not

00:52:22.239 --> 00:52:25.360
keep control and have a reasonable biology -based

00:52:25.360 --> 00:52:28.320
hunting season? I think they're just responding

00:52:28.320 --> 00:52:32.469
to the politics. Yeah, it's politicized their

00:52:32.469 --> 00:52:35.550
management to appease the wolf haters. That's

00:52:35.550 --> 00:52:37.710
that's what I would might call it I don't know.

00:52:37.809 --> 00:52:42.630
Yeah. Yeah. Okay, so that brings me back to In

00:52:42.630 --> 00:52:45.090
my opinion a lot of the wolf hating is based

00:52:45.090 --> 00:52:48.829
on really absurd myths What what are your what

00:52:48.829 --> 00:52:50.989
do you think are the most absurd myths being

00:52:50.989 --> 00:52:55.909
told out there about wolves today? The biggest

00:52:55.909 --> 00:52:59.940
thing I think is that these are not the wolves

00:52:59.940 --> 00:53:03.980
we used to have. A lot of these people call these

00:53:03.980 --> 00:53:06.460
Canadian gray wolves, and they're much bigger,

00:53:06.900 --> 00:53:10.119
much more ferocious, and it's just not true.

00:53:10.320 --> 00:53:12.559
We had wolves here before the reintroduction.

00:53:13.059 --> 00:53:16.599
We had two wolves in Stanley Basin, I don't know,

00:53:17.380 --> 00:53:22.039
75 miles to my west, that were poisoned by a

00:53:22.039 --> 00:53:24.480
sheep herder, and we couldn't quite make that

00:53:24.480 --> 00:53:29.409
case. Those wolves were the same dang wolves

00:53:29.409 --> 00:53:32.150
that we've got here now. You know, anybody that

00:53:32.150 --> 00:53:35.349
thinks those wolves north of the Canadian border

00:53:35.349 --> 00:53:39.429
are different than these wolves are nuts. They

00:53:39.429 --> 00:53:41.610
don't know what that line is, where that line

00:53:41.610 --> 00:53:45.550
is. They're just like elk. The elk in British

00:53:45.550 --> 00:53:49.989
Columbia are the same elk as in Idaho. You know,

00:53:50.010 --> 00:53:52.429
across the border, you know, and the wolves maybe

00:53:52.429 --> 00:53:57.309
even more so because they travel. over great

00:53:57.309 --> 00:54:01.730
distances under certain circumstances. We had

00:54:01.730 --> 00:54:05.610
a pair of wolves that were both collared and

00:54:05.610 --> 00:54:11.889
the female was killed. And I saw a map where

00:54:11.889 --> 00:54:15.650
that male had gone and it was all around central

00:54:15.650 --> 00:54:18.690
Idaho. It's huge, I don't know, three, four hundred

00:54:18.690 --> 00:54:23.250
miles journey. And I assume he was looking for

00:54:23.250 --> 00:54:30.070
his mate. He was a broken -hearted wolf. When

00:54:30.070 --> 00:54:33.230
I was working that first undercover case in Orfino,

00:54:34.769 --> 00:54:38.130
one of those guys was a Nez Perce tribal member

00:54:38.130 --> 00:54:45.170
who was selling like 12 moose a year. But anyway,

00:54:45.389 --> 00:54:48.849
he never lied, and I'll give him that credit.

00:54:49.309 --> 00:54:55.250
He was not a BSer. He showed me where he'd seen

00:54:55.250 --> 00:54:58.190
a wolf. I'm sure that was probably a young male

00:54:58.190 --> 00:55:01.510
that had come down from Canada looking for a

00:55:01.510 --> 00:55:03.809
female to find that he probably never found.

00:55:04.469 --> 00:55:07.170
Those wolves were coming down from Canada all

00:55:07.170 --> 00:55:11.730
the time, I'm sure. No doubt. Historically, for

00:55:11.730 --> 00:55:17.889
sure. I agree with you on that myth. That's one

00:55:17.889 --> 00:55:20.050
of the dumbest ones that I think is out there.

00:55:20.230 --> 00:55:25.519
The big bad Canadian wolf. Because I mean, every

00:55:25.519 --> 00:55:28.840
university and every museum in Idaho must have

00:55:28.840 --> 00:55:32.519
a wolf pelt from the times in the early 1900s

00:55:32.519 --> 00:55:34.579
when they were exterminating them. And we know

00:55:34.579 --> 00:55:37.079
the DNA. Yeah, you know, the DNA, you know, they're

00:55:37.079 --> 00:55:39.539
the same. And more importantly, if you just go

00:55:39.539 --> 00:55:41.340
to the library and you look at an old black and

00:55:41.340 --> 00:55:45.079
white photograph of somebody in 1918, 1915, 1920,

00:55:45.199 --> 00:55:47.989
who killed a wolf, you'll see it's just. big

00:55:47.989 --> 00:55:52.650
as they get. They're huge. Yeah, that one gets

00:55:52.650 --> 00:55:55.829
me too. I totally agree with you on that. There's

00:55:55.829 --> 00:55:58.309
a bunch of them that I just don't understand

00:55:58.309 --> 00:56:00.150
how they keep getting perpetuated, but I think

00:56:00.150 --> 00:56:02.710
it's a real shame that wolf conservation has

00:56:02.710 --> 00:56:07.510
become politicized and it's not good. I think

00:56:07.510 --> 00:56:09.969
the same thing's going on with lions in Utah

00:56:09.969 --> 00:56:13.210
right now. It's coming. Yeah, it's coming. Lions

00:56:13.210 --> 00:56:15.130
and grizzlies are going to be next. That's the

00:56:15.130 --> 00:56:20.460
reason they're losing their mule deer. They don't

00:56:20.460 --> 00:56:24.699
trust their own biologists. Your own biologists

00:56:24.699 --> 00:56:26.780
are doing the studies and that's not their conclusion.

00:56:28.460 --> 00:56:31.099
What is it they're doing? There's some game management

00:56:31.099 --> 00:56:34.760
unit in Utah right now that's allowing take of

00:56:34.760 --> 00:56:36.980
lions whenever and wherever and however you want

00:56:36.980 --> 00:56:39.000
to do it because they want to see. They're going

00:56:39.000 --> 00:56:41.280
to destroy all the lions just to see what happens

00:56:41.280 --> 00:56:47.980
to the deer. houndsmen down there that love hunting

00:56:47.980 --> 00:56:52.099
lions are very, very upset. Yeah, they're going

00:56:52.099 --> 00:56:54.980
to lose all their lions. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I

00:56:54.980 --> 00:56:58.119
mean, a good a good hunter, a true hunter is

00:56:58.119 --> 00:57:02.619
all for, you know, biology based rational management

00:57:02.619 --> 00:57:06.099
of game. The lion hunters I know here seldom

00:57:06.099 --> 00:57:11.139
kill a lion. Yeah. Interesting. Well given that

00:57:11.139 --> 00:57:14.320
I always ask I've asked my guests on every episode

00:57:14.320 --> 00:57:17.340
of this season What's your view personally, you

00:57:17.340 --> 00:57:19.460
know as a former game warden as a person who

00:57:19.460 --> 00:57:22.860
lives in that community? As a person who hunts

00:57:22.860 --> 00:57:25.639
what's your view on wolf introduction good bad.

00:57:25.679 --> 00:57:28.099
What are your thoughts about it? I think looking

00:57:28.099 --> 00:57:33.139
back I think was great. You know, I like wildlife

00:57:33.139 --> 00:57:40.179
Yeah They were always here up until, you know,

00:57:40.320 --> 00:57:42.900
maybe the last, I don't know, 100 years. But

00:57:42.900 --> 00:57:47.659
they're native here. Elk evolved with them being

00:57:47.659 --> 00:57:53.519
here. Deer evolved with them. Lions probably

00:57:53.519 --> 00:57:55.719
kill a hell of a lot more deer than wolves will

00:57:55.719 --> 00:57:59.239
ever kill. And wolves are more prey specific

00:57:59.239 --> 00:58:05.099
here towards elk. And, you know, I'm 74 years

00:58:05.099 --> 00:58:11.539
old. and I'm still killing elk. I've probably

00:58:11.539 --> 00:58:16.219
killed five or six in the last 10 years and my

00:58:16.219 --> 00:58:24.900
wife has probably killed nearly the same. Life

00:58:24.900 --> 00:58:27.880
is good. These are the good old days with the

00:58:27.880 --> 00:58:31.829
wolves. With the wolves. Yeah as a hunter in

00:58:31.829 --> 00:58:34.250
Idaho, you're not you're not feeling like you're

00:58:34.250 --> 00:58:36.030
missing out on anything because wolves are there,

00:58:36.389 --> 00:58:40.929
right? I still got meat in the freezer Exactly.

00:58:41.250 --> 00:58:44.360
Well, hey before we wrap up You I want to just

00:58:44.360 --> 00:58:46.780
give you a brief second to talk briefly about

00:58:46.780 --> 00:58:48.920
this new book you have out, because you are a

00:58:48.920 --> 00:58:52.519
very prolific writer. So I'll post links to some

00:58:52.519 --> 00:58:54.519
of your books or all of them actually on the

00:58:54.519 --> 00:58:56.940
website, because you're a very prolific writer

00:58:56.940 --> 00:58:59.840
and you have a new book coming out, which I think

00:58:59.840 --> 00:59:02.019
is going to be really interesting to people.

00:59:02.300 --> 00:59:05.019
Just can you briefly tell us, say the title and

00:59:05.019 --> 00:59:07.320
tell us a little bit about what it's about? Yeah,

00:59:07.320 --> 00:59:10.119
the title is A Case So Cold, the Murder of an

00:59:10.119 --> 00:59:14.190
Idaho Game Ward. What happened, and curiously,

00:59:14.190 --> 00:59:18.269
early in my career, I knew of an officer that

00:59:18.269 --> 00:59:21.489
died in an airplane crash, Count Elm. I knew

00:59:21.489 --> 00:59:24.630
of an officer that was killed when a horse reared

00:59:24.630 --> 00:59:29.309
up and killed him. I knew of Bill Pogue and Connelly

00:59:29.309 --> 00:59:33.909
Elms being murdered by a trapper. Claude and

00:59:33.909 --> 00:59:37.670
Elms were... Connelly and Bill were just burned

00:59:37.670 --> 00:59:41.030
into our DNA. And that was... six years before

00:59:41.030 --> 00:59:44.469
I came on, but it was part of our DNA. And at

00:59:44.469 --> 00:59:46.590
some point in time, early on, I'd heard that

00:59:46.590 --> 00:59:49.510
one of our wardens had disappeared a long time

00:59:49.510 --> 00:59:53.849
ago in North Idaho. And that was the entire statement,

00:59:54.190 --> 00:59:57.550
the story. Nobody knew what happened. Nobody

00:59:57.550 --> 01:00:00.429
knew his name. Nobody really knew where it was.

01:00:01.969 --> 01:00:06.070
And what actually happened was that He did what

01:00:06.070 --> 01:00:10.130
all game wardens do. He heard shots one afternoon,

01:00:10.130 --> 01:00:13.889
evening from his house, and he chose what we

01:00:13.889 --> 01:00:17.369
call chasing shots. He went up there. He found

01:00:17.369 --> 01:00:23.110
three dead deer, August, way close season, and

01:00:23.110 --> 01:00:25.010
nobody was around. So he goes back up at the

01:00:25.010 --> 01:00:27.369
crack of dawn, tells his wife he'll be back by

01:00:27.369 --> 01:00:31.050
to go to a funeral of theirs, their friends.

01:00:32.809 --> 01:00:35.960
He never sees him ever again. They had a search

01:00:35.960 --> 01:00:39.219
of over a thousand people looking for him, an

01:00:39.219 --> 01:00:42.900
organized search by the sheriff. It went on for

01:00:42.900 --> 01:00:45.960
weeks. It was the largest search for anybody

01:00:45.960 --> 01:00:49.199
in the United States up till 1969, where some

01:00:49.199 --> 01:00:53.920
kid got lost in the Appalachians. But it was

01:00:53.920 --> 01:01:00.150
a huge search. Don't don't give away the ending

01:01:00.150 --> 01:01:03.349
Tony for this thing away. Don't give it up Don't

01:01:03.349 --> 01:01:04.929
give away the ending but it had done about a

01:01:04.929 --> 01:01:07.710
cold case for a long time, right? But finally

01:01:07.710 --> 01:01:12.050
I'll give I'll say it this way in that 89 years

01:01:12.050 --> 01:01:16.190
later The murder was solved. Yeah, that's a good

01:01:16.190 --> 01:01:19.409
way to end it. Yeah like that. Okay. Yeah. Yeah

01:01:19.409 --> 01:01:23.329
to say the title one more time a case so cold

01:01:23.329 --> 01:01:27.170
the murder of an Idaho game warden and it's truly

01:01:27.170 --> 01:01:31.289
the oldest cold -case, solved murder in the state

01:01:31.289 --> 01:01:35.469
of Idaho's history. Yeah. I love it. You were

01:01:35.469 --> 01:01:38.170
kind enough to give me a free copy of it, which

01:01:38.170 --> 01:01:39.750
I really appreciate. I'm looking forward to reading

01:01:39.750 --> 01:01:42.969
it. Yeah, with my voice narrating it. Oh, even

01:01:42.969 --> 01:01:46.269
better. Even better. Yeah. I feel like you're

01:01:46.269 --> 01:01:48.010
tucking me in at night when you read me a chapter.

01:01:49.170 --> 01:01:50.889
Listen to it while you're driving around. You'll

01:01:50.889 --> 01:01:54.570
have me hiding under the seat. Yeah. That sounds

01:01:54.570 --> 01:01:57.309
good. That sounds good. Hey, Tony Latham, thank

01:01:57.309 --> 01:01:59.449
you so much for being on the podcast. I really

01:01:59.449 --> 01:02:01.409
appreciate it. It's good to see you again, and

01:02:01.409 --> 01:02:04.630
I hope you'll be back in season four or future

01:02:04.630 --> 01:02:07.530
seasons. That'd be great. Sure. Yep. Thank you

01:02:07.530 --> 01:02:10.309
so much for getting me on, Ed. Oh, my pleasure.

01:02:10.730 --> 01:02:12.750
You were always on my list, but you're a perfect

01:02:12.750 --> 01:02:14.869
fit for this season about wolves, so thank you

01:02:14.869 --> 01:02:18.429
so much. Yeah, thank you. Okay, everybody. That'll

01:02:18.429 --> 01:02:20.190
do it for this week. We'll see you next time.

01:02:21.610 --> 01:02:23.630
Nature's Secret Service is written and produced

01:02:23.630 --> 01:02:26.289
by me, Ed Newcomer, and is co -produced by the

01:02:26.289 --> 01:02:29.510
DHTV team here at California State University

01:02:29.510 --> 01:02:32.090
Dominguez Hills. Follow us on social media and

01:02:32.090 --> 01:02:34.369
connect with us online at naturessecretservice

01:02:34.369 --> 01:02:35.010
.com.