WEBVTT

00:00:00.140 --> 00:00:02.540
If you want to learn more about the topics of

00:00:02.540 --> 00:00:06.219
today's episode, visit the podcast website at

00:00:06.219 --> 00:00:09.300
naturessecretservice .com. Thanks for listening.

00:00:42.339 --> 00:00:46.020
OK, people, listen up. Here we go. This is Nature's

00:00:46.020 --> 00:00:47.780
Secret Service, the podcast that puts you in

00:00:47.780 --> 00:00:50.000
the room with the men and women of wildlife law

00:00:50.000 --> 00:00:53.060
enforcement. I'm Ed Newcomer, your host. And

00:00:53.060 --> 00:00:56.399
today we have a really cool guest, Ed Espinoza.

00:00:56.560 --> 00:01:00.969
It's an Ed on Ed conversation today. And Ed,

00:01:01.289 --> 00:01:03.969
until very recently, was the deputy director

00:01:03.969 --> 00:01:07.909
of the Clark -Baven National Fish and Wildlife

00:01:07.909 --> 00:01:10.849
Service Forensics Lab. I probably added a word

00:01:10.849 --> 00:01:13.370
in there that doesn't belong in the title. But

00:01:13.370 --> 00:01:16.170
the US Fish and Wildlife Service Office of Law

00:01:16.170 --> 00:01:18.430
Enforcement has a national forensics lab that

00:01:18.430 --> 00:01:22.530
does forensic work for agents and inspectors

00:01:22.530 --> 00:01:26.540
as needed. for many years, Ed was the deputy

00:01:26.540 --> 00:01:28.819
director there and I'm super happy to welcome

00:01:28.819 --> 00:01:31.000
him to the podcast. Ed, thanks so much for being

00:01:31.000 --> 00:01:33.819
on. Thank you. Thank you for inviting me and

00:01:33.819 --> 00:01:36.719
it's a pleasure to be with you. Yeah. And you

00:01:36.719 --> 00:01:38.939
know, I just want to remind listeners, I've known

00:01:38.939 --> 00:01:41.920
you since like pretty much my first couple of

00:01:41.920 --> 00:01:44.739
weeks on the job, because one of the things that

00:01:44.739 --> 00:01:47.120
happens when an agent is at the Academy or at

00:01:47.120 --> 00:01:49.159
least used to happen while we were at the Academy

00:01:49.159 --> 00:01:52.159
was people from the lab would come down and teach

00:01:52.159 --> 00:01:55.319
a little bit about crime scene processing and

00:01:55.319 --> 00:01:58.219
what the lab can do for agents. And you came

00:01:58.219 --> 00:02:00.319
down when my class was going through the Academy.

00:02:00.420 --> 00:02:04.159
So I met you very early in my career and honestly

00:02:04.159 --> 00:02:09.250
couldn't wait to work with the lab. You taught

00:02:09.250 --> 00:02:13.650
us well, by the way, mostly because there were

00:02:13.650 --> 00:02:15.750
so many times in my career where I accidentally

00:02:15.750 --> 00:02:17.849
forgot to do something you trained us to do and

00:02:17.849 --> 00:02:20.169
I would kick myself because I was like, oh man,

00:02:20.610 --> 00:02:25.330
Ed would not have liked this very much. And then

00:02:25.330 --> 00:02:27.449
another cool thing is you and I crossed paths

00:02:27.449 --> 00:02:30.590
while I was an attache in Africa because you

00:02:30.590 --> 00:02:34.069
came over to Africa at least once while I was

00:02:34.069 --> 00:02:37.389
there to help teach crime scene courses to African

00:02:37.389 --> 00:02:39.550
law enforcement agents. So you and I met up I

00:02:39.550 --> 00:02:43.409
think in 2016 in Malawi. It was Malawi. Yeah,

00:02:43.550 --> 00:02:47.310
I had a great time teaching a crime scene course

00:02:47.310 --> 00:02:51.409
there. So listen, can you tell everybody a little

00:02:51.409 --> 00:02:53.409
bit about your background and how you came to

00:02:53.409 --> 00:02:59.210
work for the lab and what that was like? My education

00:02:59.210 --> 00:03:02.870
is a degree in forensic chemistry from University

00:03:02.870 --> 00:03:07.539
of California Berkeley and I was interested in

00:03:07.539 --> 00:03:11.719
working forensic cases. I always presumed it

00:03:11.719 --> 00:03:15.360
was gonna be in a human crime lab because that's

00:03:15.360 --> 00:03:19.120
the normal. And so a job opened and I decided

00:03:19.120 --> 00:03:22.759
I would apply for a year to deal with bunnies

00:03:22.759 --> 00:03:25.159
and whatever because I didn't know what it was,

00:03:25.319 --> 00:03:28.379
but it seemed interesting. And I thought that

00:03:28.379 --> 00:03:30.520
I'll do it for a year and then probably go back

00:03:30.520 --> 00:03:32.240
to teaching at Berkeley because there was gonna

00:03:32.240 --> 00:03:38.870
be an opening. After the first year, it was so

00:03:38.870 --> 00:03:41.349
fantastic that I just stayed and stayed and stayed

00:03:41.349 --> 00:03:45.169
and I stayed there for 36 years. That's amazing.

00:03:45.409 --> 00:03:47.310
So the, pretty much the first job you got out

00:03:47.310 --> 00:03:50.689
of, out of a university was at the Fish and Wildlife

00:03:50.689 --> 00:03:54.949
Service Lab. It was, I was, I be previous to

00:03:54.949 --> 00:03:57.110
that. I was teaching half time at Sacramento

00:03:57.110 --> 00:04:01.159
State and teaching half time at Berkeley, which

00:04:01.159 --> 00:04:02.879
really means you're not good enough to teach

00:04:02.879 --> 00:04:08.379
at either place full -time. Before that, I had

00:04:08.379 --> 00:04:12.199
done other consulting forensic work, but once

00:04:12.199 --> 00:04:15.099
I graduated, that was the first and last job

00:04:15.099 --> 00:04:20.040
actually. Very cool. How long had the lab been

00:04:20.040 --> 00:04:21.879
around when you got hired? Because I can't remember

00:04:21.879 --> 00:04:26.829
what year the lab was founded. was completed

00:04:26.829 --> 00:04:31.490
in terms of the building in 1988 and I was like

00:04:31.490 --> 00:04:34.750
the third or fourth higher in 1989. I arrived

00:04:34.750 --> 00:04:38.050
there in February. Incredible. So you have this

00:04:38.050 --> 00:04:40.430
whole history of the lab as it grew over time.

00:04:40.790 --> 00:04:44.189
Yeah. Exactly. And just so listeners know, you

00:04:44.189 --> 00:04:46.269
know, the name of the lab is the Clark -Baven

00:04:46.269 --> 00:04:50.350
Forensic Lab and it, Clark -Baven was the director

00:04:50.350 --> 00:04:52.689
of law enforcement. We always call it called

00:04:52.689 --> 00:04:56.170
our directors, the chief, but he was kind of

00:04:56.170 --> 00:04:59.269
a very, I don't know, how would you describe

00:04:59.269 --> 00:05:03.149
him? He was a very forward -thinking progressive

00:05:03.149 --> 00:05:06.050
chief or director of law enforcement who really

00:05:06.050 --> 00:05:09.170
saw the need down the road as we were going to

00:05:09.170 --> 00:05:12.310
be doing more international work, more like crime

00:05:12.310 --> 00:05:14.110
scene investigations. He knew we were going to

00:05:14.110 --> 00:05:17.420
need a forensic capability. He was he was that,

00:05:17.579 --> 00:05:19.199
you know, he was a special agent, but he was

00:05:19.199 --> 00:05:23.100
also had a law degree. Right. So he had both

00:05:23.100 --> 00:05:26.480
the the knowledge of the law and the experience

00:05:26.480 --> 00:05:29.120
of an agent. And so he was a good leader. Yeah.

00:05:29.439 --> 00:05:32.079
Yeah. So he got the lab named after himself.

00:05:32.639 --> 00:05:34.800
After he passed away, it was named after him.

00:05:35.720 --> 00:05:39.600
Yes. You mentioned that, you know, you went there

00:05:39.600 --> 00:05:42.579
kind of thinking you wouldn't stay long. maybe

00:05:42.579 --> 00:05:44.759
not totally understanding the kind of work you

00:05:44.759 --> 00:05:46.759
were doing, you might be doing, you know, referencing

00:05:46.759 --> 00:05:49.779
bunnies and stuff, but you spent how many, 37

00:05:49.779 --> 00:05:53.740
years there? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So there must've

00:05:53.740 --> 00:05:56.379
been something you really loved about it. What

00:05:56.379 --> 00:05:58.399
was it? What, what'd you really love about that

00:05:58.399 --> 00:06:00.899
work? What kept you devoted to it for so long?

00:06:02.079 --> 00:06:08.259
It, it basically comes down to being a service,

00:06:08.300 --> 00:06:11.019
in a service position and servicing and helping

00:06:11.209 --> 00:06:14.430
our agents conduct their cases. That's one aspect

00:06:14.430 --> 00:06:18.550
of the job that was fulfilling. The other is

00:06:18.550 --> 00:06:22.250
the questions that our agents would ask us that

00:06:22.250 --> 00:06:26.610
needed to have some research done. Many of the

00:06:26.610 --> 00:06:30.970
cases that our agents asked about, can you do

00:06:30.970 --> 00:06:34.209
this, can you do that, were things that were

00:06:34.209 --> 00:06:38.189
logical, but they had never been published before.

00:06:38.589 --> 00:06:41.920
And so before we can take a mature science to

00:06:41.920 --> 00:06:45.139
court, they have to be published given a legal

00:06:45.139 --> 00:06:48.339
example called Daubert, Ed Ochs versus Merrill

00:06:48.339 --> 00:06:52.019
Dow. And so there was a lot of opportunity to

00:06:52.019 --> 00:06:54.939
do research, analyze the evidence associated

00:06:54.939 --> 00:06:59.060
with a particular type of case, then go testify.

00:06:59.620 --> 00:07:07.339
And it was a rewarding loop, it really was. So

00:07:07.339 --> 00:07:12.209
there was so much opportunity in the early 90s

00:07:12.209 --> 00:07:16.629
to do that kind of work that that I just kept

00:07:16.629 --> 00:07:19.509
staying because it was it was fulfilling. It

00:07:19.509 --> 00:07:22.009
didn't feel like a job. It just felt like you

00:07:22.009 --> 00:07:25.470
were like I was at a university without the teaching

00:07:25.470 --> 00:07:27.790
responsibility. So like it was the best of all

00:07:27.790 --> 00:07:32.149
worlds. You know, that was my That was my feeling,

00:07:32.350 --> 00:07:34.550
too, about being an agent. It never felt like

00:07:34.550 --> 00:07:37.110
a job. It really felt like I was just going in

00:07:37.110 --> 00:07:39.089
every day to hang out with people who shared

00:07:39.089 --> 00:07:43.310
my interests and my passion. And that certainly

00:07:43.310 --> 00:07:46.329
overlapped with lab personnel, too. Any time

00:07:46.329 --> 00:07:48.149
I picked up the phone to talk to somebody at

00:07:48.149 --> 00:07:51.250
the lab, you could just feel, or if I went to

00:07:51.250 --> 00:07:53.470
the lab to talk to somebody, you could just feel

00:07:53.470 --> 00:07:57.050
that you shared an interest and a commitment

00:07:57.050 --> 00:08:01.829
to public service and protecting natural resources,

00:08:02.629 --> 00:08:05.350
which, boy, that's just a freeing way to have

00:08:05.350 --> 00:08:07.930
a career, isn't it? It's very liberating. It

00:08:07.930 --> 00:08:10.689
was fabulous. That was absolutely fabulous. Fabulous.

00:08:11.750 --> 00:08:15.290
Before I jump into my next question that's on

00:08:15.290 --> 00:08:17.350
my list here, I want to ask you a couple things

00:08:17.350 --> 00:08:20.910
because my students, I teach here at Cal State

00:08:20.910 --> 00:08:24.389
University, Dominguez Hills, of course, and pretty

00:08:24.389 --> 00:08:26.649
regularly I have students come through the criminal

00:08:26.649 --> 00:08:29.050
justice program, or sometimes I have students

00:08:29.050 --> 00:08:32.440
who are in a hard science program who come through

00:08:32.440 --> 00:08:35.159
criminal justice because they want to do exactly

00:08:35.159 --> 00:08:37.279
what you did when you were in college. You wanted

00:08:37.279 --> 00:08:40.460
to come out and work in forensics. Is there any

00:08:40.460 --> 00:08:43.200
advice you could give to somebody who is studying

00:08:43.200 --> 00:08:46.679
this or wants to get into that forensic work

00:08:46.679 --> 00:08:51.620
about how they might structure their educational

00:08:51.620 --> 00:08:59.559
time to position themselves for that job? Yes,

00:08:59.559 --> 00:09:02.679
I mean, I appreciate the question because I work

00:09:02.679 --> 00:09:06.179
with many students while I work at the lab from

00:09:06.179 --> 00:09:08.600
the local university, Southern Oregon University.

00:09:09.799 --> 00:09:11.519
The first thing that I'll say is that if somebody's

00:09:11.519 --> 00:09:14.139
coming through the criminal justice system purely,

00:09:15.720 --> 00:09:18.779
they don't have the analytical skills usually

00:09:18.779 --> 00:09:22.919
associated with forensic tasks. And I don't mean

00:09:22.919 --> 00:09:26.100
they can't think right. I just mean they haven't

00:09:26.100 --> 00:09:30.120
had their hands into calculating molarity concentration

00:09:30.120 --> 00:09:33.340
of a solution or understand mass spectrometry

00:09:33.340 --> 00:09:39.659
or know how to do STR genetics DNA testing. So

00:09:39.659 --> 00:09:43.519
it's really it has to be the people that the

00:09:43.519 --> 00:09:46.279
lab employs all forensics labs come with a skill

00:09:46.279 --> 00:09:49.299
set that is very much analytical on the bench

00:09:49.299 --> 00:09:53.820
and and so for that it's typically easier to

00:09:53.820 --> 00:09:58.129
teach a scientist Some of the legal things than

00:09:58.129 --> 00:10:01.350
it is to teach a criminal justice person how

00:10:01.350 --> 00:10:04.830
to even understand the science because logically

00:10:04.830 --> 00:10:08.870
most people who go into criminal justice Have

00:10:08.870 --> 00:10:12.169
chosen a path to avoid some of those chemistry

00:10:12.169 --> 00:10:20.789
and physics classes, right? And so and so it

00:10:20.789 --> 00:10:24.029
it the the best candidate is somebody who has

00:10:24.029 --> 00:10:28.740
a solid science degree with some analytical skills

00:10:28.740 --> 00:10:32.460
through that experience. Got it. OK, that's good.

00:10:32.480 --> 00:10:35.039
That's good advice. I always think it's pretty

00:10:35.039 --> 00:10:37.240
smart of the students that I see come through

00:10:37.240 --> 00:10:39.980
my class because because when I teach, of course,

00:10:39.980 --> 00:10:42.379
I'm in the criminal justice program. But when

00:10:42.379 --> 00:10:45.559
I see a student coming in who's doing some type

00:10:45.559 --> 00:10:49.559
of premed or biology or any of the hard sciences

00:10:49.559 --> 00:10:52.000
who comes over and takes a criminal justice class,

00:10:52.200 --> 00:10:53.659
I always think, you know, that's pretty smart

00:10:53.659 --> 00:10:57.580
of them. to already be combining the hard science

00:10:57.580 --> 00:10:59.580
with the criminal justice, if that's what they

00:10:59.580 --> 00:11:02.600
want to do, the forensics. Exactly. Yeah. OK,

00:11:02.600 --> 00:11:06.519
great. And then I want to course back up, because

00:11:06.519 --> 00:11:10.419
I think a lot of times people get confused about

00:11:10.419 --> 00:11:13.860
what exactly forensics is. And the way I describe

00:11:13.860 --> 00:11:16.799
it to my students is, look, forensics just means

00:11:16.799 --> 00:11:19.419
that this is something that's going to have an

00:11:19.419 --> 00:11:22.919
application or involvement in the justice system

00:11:22.919 --> 00:11:27.159
somehow. And you mentioned Daubert, which is

00:11:27.159 --> 00:11:30.559
a case that relates to admissibility of expert

00:11:30.559 --> 00:11:34.179
testimony and things. You mentioned some of these

00:11:34.179 --> 00:11:37.759
publications. And I think between the two of

00:11:37.759 --> 00:11:40.600
us, we'll get to the right answer here. Why is

00:11:40.600 --> 00:11:44.620
it so critical that these things be tested and

00:11:44.620 --> 00:11:49.120
published, peer reviewed prior to a forensic

00:11:49.120 --> 00:11:52.429
expert testifying about them in court? First,

00:11:52.750 --> 00:11:58.230
I will say that our legal criminal justice system

00:11:58.230 --> 00:12:01.389
does not differentiate between a bunny case and

00:12:01.389 --> 00:12:05.049
a human case. The threshold of certainty is the

00:12:05.049 --> 00:12:09.529
same. The Dobbert case really tended to be a

00:12:09.529 --> 00:12:13.470
case that dealt with the damage to fetuses of

00:12:13.470 --> 00:12:16.870
mothers taking certain medication. It was a civil

00:12:16.870 --> 00:12:19.830
case. It wasn't a criminal case. From that, it

00:12:19.830 --> 00:12:22.730
went to the Supreme Court. for the Supreme Court

00:12:22.730 --> 00:12:25.490
to try to eliminate junk science coming into

00:12:25.490 --> 00:12:30.330
the courts, they issued a decision, Mr. Daubert's

00:12:30.330 --> 00:12:34.070
decision. And it's important because if somebody

00:12:34.070 --> 00:12:37.769
is being accused, what you definitely want to

00:12:37.769 --> 00:12:40.870
make sure is that the accusers, and in that case,

00:12:41.250 --> 00:12:45.769
the forensics lab is part of the accusers, have

00:12:45.769 --> 00:12:49.929
the correct science, not... not 50 % correct,

00:12:50.190 --> 00:12:52.649
not the kind of certainty that a weatherman can

00:12:52.649 --> 00:12:55.870
say it's gonna rain tomorrow with 80 % of probability

00:12:55.870 --> 00:12:58.870
and it doesn't rain all day long, that wouldn't

00:12:58.870 --> 00:13:02.950
fit. So it's really to help the criminal justice

00:13:02.950 --> 00:13:06.090
system and in many cases to the disappointment

00:13:06.090 --> 00:13:10.029
of our agents, our findings are exculpatory.

00:13:10.149 --> 00:13:14.179
They are not helping the case. you can see the

00:13:14.179 --> 00:13:17.100
eyes rolling of the agents and oh man that's

00:13:17.100 --> 00:13:20.519
that was a waste of time but we at the forensics

00:13:20.519 --> 00:13:24.580
lab don't think of ourselves as accusatory or

00:13:24.580 --> 00:13:27.120
defenders we think ourselves of just interpreting

00:13:27.120 --> 00:13:30.179
the evidence associated with the case the agents

00:13:30.179 --> 00:13:33.620
brought to us exactly exactly and that's what

00:13:33.620 --> 00:13:36.940
makes a forensic expert so valuable in court

00:13:36.940 --> 00:13:40.009
is that Unlike a lay witness, a forensic expert

00:13:40.009 --> 00:13:43.509
is going to be able to tell a jury or a trier

00:13:43.509 --> 00:13:49.029
fact what their opinion is about their analysis

00:13:49.029 --> 00:13:51.389
of the evidence. And I'm going to push back just

00:13:51.389 --> 00:13:56.429
a little bit because when I was an agent, I never

00:13:56.429 --> 00:13:59.210
minded if the lab came up with exculpatory. And

00:13:59.210 --> 00:14:01.590
exculpatory, of course, means tends to show that

00:14:01.590 --> 00:14:05.340
your suspect did not do the crime. Because in

00:14:05.340 --> 00:14:07.440
all honesty, I don't want to catch the wrong

00:14:07.440 --> 00:14:11.519
guy. You know, I'm after the bad guy. And I don't

00:14:11.519 --> 00:14:14.440
want to ever go to bed at night thinking I might

00:14:14.440 --> 00:14:17.240
have put an innocent person behind bars. So I

00:14:17.240 --> 00:14:20.279
was happy if the lab showed that the suspect

00:14:20.279 --> 00:14:22.980
was telling the truth and they weren't there

00:14:22.980 --> 00:14:24.600
or they didn't do it or they weren't connected

00:14:24.600 --> 00:14:27.919
to the crime scene. You know, that's fine. I'll

00:14:27.919 --> 00:14:32.509
continue my investigation. But like you, Yes,

00:14:32.710 --> 00:14:35.090
agents are very interested in solving the crime

00:14:35.090 --> 00:14:37.269
and they generally have an idea of who the bad

00:14:37.269 --> 00:14:40.029
guy is. But in the end, if an agent is rolling

00:14:40.029 --> 00:14:43.450
their eyes at you, I will say to them, they've

00:14:43.450 --> 00:14:46.029
got the wrong attitude because their job is a

00:14:46.029 --> 00:14:48.730
fact finder and not to have an opinion. They

00:14:48.730 --> 00:14:51.289
might have a sense of who they ought to be pursuing,

00:14:51.850 --> 00:14:55.509
but never get too married to the fact that you

00:14:55.509 --> 00:14:58.509
have to catch Mr. X because it might turn out

00:14:58.509 --> 00:15:01.419
Mr. X is not guilty. And you better be willing

00:15:01.419 --> 00:15:04.559
to recognize that if that's the case. And you

00:15:04.559 --> 00:15:08.659
know, I love the way you describe that. And I

00:15:08.659 --> 00:15:10.840
will just add to the conversation that most of

00:15:10.840 --> 00:15:14.980
us have a dual system at work when there is an

00:15:14.980 --> 00:15:16.960
investigation, either at the forensics lab or

00:15:16.960 --> 00:15:19.679
in the field, right? There's the hunch and then

00:15:19.679 --> 00:15:23.759
there's the facts. Yes. And a good scientist

00:15:23.759 --> 00:15:26.080
ignores the hunch because that's a little bit

00:15:26.080 --> 00:15:29.649
of the bias, right? and you tried to go by the

00:15:29.649 --> 00:15:32.190
evidence. But we have to live with both because

00:15:32.190 --> 00:15:34.870
the hunch many times is what leads us to find

00:15:34.870 --> 00:15:39.009
the question or the evidence or the item. So

00:15:39.009 --> 00:15:44.610
it's an interesting dilemma. And that's corrected

00:15:44.610 --> 00:15:47.110
by ethics, I think. That's really where it comes

00:15:47.110 --> 00:15:50.149
down to. 100 % is corrected. It's checked by

00:15:50.149 --> 00:15:52.669
integrity, really. Because yeah, of course you

00:15:52.669 --> 00:15:54.649
have to have a hunch when you're conducting any

00:15:54.649 --> 00:15:57.250
kind of inquiry. But at the same time, you're

00:15:57.250 --> 00:16:00.110
always cognizant of the fact that the hunch is

00:16:00.110 --> 00:16:03.190
not fact, right? And you're going to have to

00:16:03.190 --> 00:16:06.470
let go. I mean, sometimes like, man, I know it

00:16:06.470 --> 00:16:08.210
in my heart. I just can't prove it. And just

00:16:08.210 --> 00:16:13.649
like, OK. Exactly. And you know, my mentor and

00:16:13.649 --> 00:16:16.710
trainer, Marie Palladini, she used to have the

00:16:16.710 --> 00:16:20.309
best saying of all is that If we were unable

00:16:20.309 --> 00:16:22.730
to make a case against somebody, they got away

00:16:22.730 --> 00:16:24.710
from us because we just couldn't develop evidence

00:16:24.710 --> 00:16:26.909
that proved they were guilty. She would just

00:16:26.909 --> 00:16:29.330
kind of shrug and she'd say, you know, if they're

00:16:29.330 --> 00:16:32.629
guilty, they'll be back. You know, they'll eventually

00:16:32.629 --> 00:16:34.450
make a mistake. They'll be back. We'll see them

00:16:34.450 --> 00:16:38.169
again. And I love that. I hadn't heard that.

00:16:38.289 --> 00:16:41.710
You know, I respect Marie Palladini a lot. Yeah.

00:16:41.889 --> 00:16:44.450
And, you know, just I think she kind of lived

00:16:44.450 --> 00:16:47.950
the lived the example of don't get personally

00:16:47.950 --> 00:16:51.289
wound up in your investigation because then you'll

00:16:51.289 --> 00:16:54.769
become biased. You'll start to suffer from confirmation

00:16:54.769 --> 00:16:59.110
bias and you'll make a mistake. Yeah. Along those

00:16:59.110 --> 00:17:02.570
lines, I think this is a perfect segue into when

00:17:02.570 --> 00:17:05.750
you train agents to submit something to the lab,

00:17:05.829 --> 00:17:08.630
there's actually a form. What happens in the

00:17:08.630 --> 00:17:11.349
field is I'm an agent out in the field. I collect

00:17:11.349 --> 00:17:13.269
some piece of evidence. Maybe it's a carcass,

00:17:13.289 --> 00:17:17.029
maybe it's a shell casing, a fingerprint, whatever,

00:17:17.549 --> 00:17:19.769
and I'm going to submit it to the lab. There's

00:17:19.769 --> 00:17:22.509
a form that we fill out that goes to the lab.

00:17:23.049 --> 00:17:25.970
One of the things that I remember you training

00:17:25.970 --> 00:17:28.769
us on when I was in the academy was to be very

00:17:28.769 --> 00:17:35.210
specific about what you want and be very cognizant

00:17:35.210 --> 00:17:37.349
of the question you are asking. What do you want

00:17:37.349 --> 00:17:40.630
the lab to do? I think this is the perfect segue

00:17:40.630 --> 00:17:45.549
because The lab is there to serve the agent or

00:17:45.549 --> 00:17:48.609
the inspector and You're really you're not gonna

00:17:48.609 --> 00:17:51.049
do something that the inspector agent doesn't

00:17:51.049 --> 00:17:54.609
ask for Correct. Yeah, you might you might say

00:17:54.609 --> 00:17:57.809
hey have you thought about this or that but if

00:17:57.809 --> 00:18:01.769
it's not on the form You know, for example if

00:18:01.769 --> 00:18:04.670
I say, you know, please identify this species

00:18:04.670 --> 00:18:06.930
You will you know, you will use whatever techniques

00:18:06.930 --> 00:18:09.130
you need to do that. It might be DNA. It might

00:18:09.130 --> 00:18:15.349
be morphology but If I don't check the carcass

00:18:15.349 --> 00:18:22.890
for poison, you won't do that, right? Or will

00:18:22.890 --> 00:18:26.490
you? The one example you gave is slightly different

00:18:26.490 --> 00:18:29.490
because cause of death involves looking, is it

00:18:29.490 --> 00:18:32.150
a bullet, or is it poison, or is it natural causes?

00:18:32.390 --> 00:18:35.009
Which is slightly different from an actual evidence

00:18:35.009 --> 00:18:36.970
item in which you're asking, what is it? Or could

00:18:36.970 --> 00:18:40.230
it be a species? In that case, we wouldn't do

00:18:40.230 --> 00:18:42.720
anything. But if you decide to say what did this

00:18:42.720 --> 00:18:45.220
die of, then we would look for poison and bullets

00:18:45.220 --> 00:18:47.619
and all that kind of stuff. Exactly. So being

00:18:47.619 --> 00:18:50.480
very important that if you want to know what

00:18:50.480 --> 00:18:52.640
this confirmed, what the species is, and you

00:18:52.640 --> 00:18:54.380
want to know what killed it, you better make

00:18:54.380 --> 00:18:56.259
sure both of those questions are on the form.

00:18:56.640 --> 00:18:59.819
Exactly. Yeah. Because that's just it. The lab's

00:18:59.819 --> 00:19:03.019
not going to accept a piece of evidence and then

00:19:03.019 --> 00:19:05.500
kind of run wild and do every test they can possibly

00:19:05.500 --> 00:19:08.259
think of. Because we don't have we don't have

00:19:08.259 --> 00:19:11.460
the the background or the the scope of what the

00:19:11.460 --> 00:19:14.240
agent is looking for, right? So we try to assist

00:19:14.240 --> 00:19:19.220
the agent with his question rather than Sometimes

00:19:19.220 --> 00:19:23.319
new agents do the following They go to a crime

00:19:23.319 --> 00:19:26.970
scene and they collect everything basically just

00:19:26.970 --> 00:19:29.609
junk collect trash then send it to the lab says

00:19:29.609 --> 00:19:35.390
what happened here and without without being

00:19:35.390 --> 00:19:38.069
at the crime scene without actually doing the

00:19:38.069 --> 00:19:40.609
measurements it's hard for us to say if this

00:19:40.609 --> 00:19:42.630
particular evidence is associated with anything

00:19:42.630 --> 00:19:45.869
or is just trash exactly because a very good

00:19:45.869 --> 00:19:49.369
crime scene processing collects things that are

00:19:49.369 --> 00:19:52.490
important to the hypothesis it's not cleaning

00:19:52.490 --> 00:19:55.650
it up Exactly, exactly. And it's not picking

00:19:55.650 --> 00:19:59.309
up something that is obviously a rusted old piece

00:19:59.309 --> 00:20:01.390
of metal that's been there for 40 years. It has

00:20:01.390 --> 00:20:03.130
nothing to do with your crime scene. Exactly.

00:20:03.549 --> 00:20:06.630
That takes a little bit of decision making by

00:20:06.630 --> 00:20:09.730
the agent out in the field. I remember when I

00:20:09.730 --> 00:20:12.450
would submit forms to the lab, I would usually

00:20:12.450 --> 00:20:15.289
bullet it out or number everything I needed.

00:20:15.930 --> 00:20:19.349
Because another thing that I think TV probably

00:20:19.349 --> 00:20:22.210
does a disservice to how forensics labs work

00:20:22.210 --> 00:20:24.769
and how they work with the field, is what's depicted

00:20:24.769 --> 00:20:27.670
on TV is often that we're going to hoover up

00:20:27.670 --> 00:20:29.289
everything, send it to the lab, and the lab's

00:20:29.289 --> 00:20:31.869
going to tell us what happened. And that's not

00:20:31.869 --> 00:20:34.250
the way it works, because explain a little bit

00:20:34.250 --> 00:20:36.410
about the capabilities of the lab, the different,

00:20:36.410 --> 00:20:39.470
I don't know what you'd call it, branches, or

00:20:39.470 --> 00:20:44.609
I guess labs within the lab. What are the capabilities

00:20:44.609 --> 00:20:47.579
of the Fish and Wildlife Forensic Lab? Just generally.

00:20:48.920 --> 00:20:55.980
So at our lab, we have grown and waned over time.

00:20:56.599 --> 00:21:00.940
But at one point, we used to have a criminalistics

00:21:00.940 --> 00:21:03.599
unit that analyzed fingerprints and bullets,

00:21:04.559 --> 00:21:06.940
cartridge shells, all that kind of stuff. We

00:21:06.940 --> 00:21:09.599
have a pathology unit that determines cause and

00:21:09.599 --> 00:21:11.680
manner of death when a whole carcass arrives.

00:21:12.400 --> 00:21:16.900
We have a genetics unit that uses DNA today,

00:21:17.180 --> 00:21:20.440
at one point protein in the past, but uses DNA

00:21:20.440 --> 00:21:25.000
to answer questions the agent might have. And

00:21:25.000 --> 00:21:26.900
those questions come in many different ways,

00:21:27.099 --> 00:21:31.119
and I can talk about that. And then we have a

00:21:31.119 --> 00:21:34.279
morphology unit. That unit is usually invoked

00:21:34.279 --> 00:21:38.299
when the evidence itself has some aspect to it

00:21:38.299 --> 00:21:41.920
that is easily recognizable. could be fur, could

00:21:41.920 --> 00:21:46.099
be an ivory object. So for example, in a case

00:21:46.099 --> 00:21:48.660
in which you have morphological features, you

00:21:48.660 --> 00:21:51.680
don't have to do DNA testing. DNA is expensive

00:21:51.680 --> 00:21:54.980
and timely. And so somebody with the skills of

00:21:54.980 --> 00:21:58.980
either ornithologist or a mammologist or herpetologist

00:21:58.980 --> 00:22:01.640
can look at an evidence item and determine its

00:22:01.640 --> 00:22:04.720
species, for example. And then we also have a

00:22:04.720 --> 00:22:07.680
chemistry section. And the chemistry section

00:22:07.680 --> 00:22:14.960
analyzes odd things that come to the lab. Specifically

00:22:14.960 --> 00:22:17.140
to figure out what the chemical is that might

00:22:17.140 --> 00:22:20.460
be involved in a case. Yeah, and that's that's

00:22:20.460 --> 00:22:23.640
why it's so important. I think that asking the

00:22:23.640 --> 00:22:26.259
right question on the on the agent side is because

00:22:26.259 --> 00:22:30.140
it's not just the lab. It is sections within

00:22:30.140 --> 00:22:32.140
the lab and so the lab kind of needs to know.

00:22:32.140 --> 00:22:35.039
Well, where do we send this item? Does it need

00:22:35.039 --> 00:22:38.809
to go to morphology pathology and? chemistry

00:22:38.809 --> 00:22:40.910
or can it just go to morphology? You know what

00:22:40.910 --> 00:22:44.009
I mean? Exactly. Yeah. So it's effective use

00:22:44.009 --> 00:22:48.190
of lab resources, but also keeping in mind that

00:22:48.190 --> 00:22:50.690
the lab is not going to solve your case for you.

00:22:50.690 --> 00:22:53.210
It's going to turn back information to you that

00:22:53.210 --> 00:22:57.450
you can then use to go forward. Exactly. The

00:22:57.450 --> 00:23:01.549
lab is the handmaiden basically to the agent

00:23:01.549 --> 00:23:04.690
to provide whatever information they need from

00:23:04.690 --> 00:23:07.819
the evidence that we receive. That's all. Excellent.

00:23:08.660 --> 00:23:11.480
So we're going to jump into a case now. Just

00:23:11.480 --> 00:23:15.019
to briefly review, the case we're talking about

00:23:15.019 --> 00:23:18.059
involves the poison meatballs that were distributed

00:23:18.059 --> 00:23:21.319
up in Idaho and a case that was investigated

00:23:21.319 --> 00:23:24.960
by Special Agent Scott Bergonier. And in that

00:23:24.960 --> 00:23:29.819
case, Ed, as you know, it was a large crime scene.

00:23:30.519 --> 00:23:32.640
And during that crime scene, Agent Bergonier

00:23:32.640 --> 00:23:36.119
and his team collected more than 45 meatballs.

00:23:36.410 --> 00:23:40.049
that were distributed out in this drainage area

00:23:40.049 --> 00:23:42.890
out in the wilderness in Idaho after a domestic

00:23:42.890 --> 00:23:46.269
dog had eaten one and basically gone into convulsions.

00:23:47.210 --> 00:23:51.369
So typical example is Agent Bregonia at the crime

00:23:51.369 --> 00:23:54.349
scene, he opened one of these meatballs and found

00:23:54.349 --> 00:23:58.890
a gray granular substance inside. So he submitted

00:23:58.890 --> 00:24:02.390
a request to the lab for two different things.

00:24:02.490 --> 00:24:06.640
One is he wanted to know what animal those meatballs

00:24:06.640 --> 00:24:08.920
were made out of. And he also wanted to know,

00:24:08.960 --> 00:24:12.039
what is this granular substance? Assuming you

00:24:12.039 --> 00:24:14.680
got a request like that from an agent and you

00:24:14.680 --> 00:24:18.180
received these meatballs, what would the lab

00:24:18.180 --> 00:24:21.059
do? And in what order would you do the work?

00:24:22.119 --> 00:24:25.880
Probably on a case like you described. And knowing,

00:24:26.279 --> 00:24:29.569
as you said, that there was a dead dog. poisoned

00:24:29.569 --> 00:24:32.430
apparently by one of these meatballs. The first

00:24:32.430 --> 00:24:35.170
thing we would do was a chemistry analysis to

00:24:35.170 --> 00:24:39.210
determine if there's any poison present. We are

00:24:39.210 --> 00:24:41.930
not going to give an evidence item to somebody

00:24:41.930 --> 00:24:45.769
in genetics to analyze for species without alerting

00:24:45.769 --> 00:24:47.769
them that this has something dangerous that could

00:24:47.769 --> 00:24:51.170
kill you if you're not careful. Exactly. The

00:24:51.170 --> 00:24:54.009
first step would be determine pesticide if present

00:24:54.009 --> 00:24:57.359
or not or Poison doesn't have to be a pesticide.

00:24:57.880 --> 00:25:01.160
And second, once that is confirmed or denied,

00:25:01.200 --> 00:25:03.960
whatever, the rest of the evidence goes to the

00:25:03.960 --> 00:25:07.700
genetic section to do a DNA analysis to determine

00:25:07.700 --> 00:25:11.180
species. And which section would do the poison

00:25:11.180 --> 00:25:15.200
identification or the chemistry section? And

00:25:15.200 --> 00:25:20.299
so this raises two interesting questions and

00:25:20.299 --> 00:25:22.740
two, I think, good points for people to remember

00:25:22.740 --> 00:25:26.710
is that when it comes to this granular substance,

00:25:26.809 --> 00:25:29.289
the chemistry section would be able to tell me

00:25:29.289 --> 00:25:32.269
as an agent, what information would they be able

00:25:32.269 --> 00:25:36.769
to tell me? Well, what the poison is, you know,

00:25:36.769 --> 00:25:39.089
but there's also some morphology associated with

00:25:39.089 --> 00:25:41.589
different poisons. For example, there's a poison

00:25:41.589 --> 00:25:45.269
called carbofuran that has a little purplish

00:25:45.269 --> 00:25:48.029
kind of look. And as soon as you see purplish,

00:25:48.170 --> 00:25:50.009
you go, oh, that's probably carbofuran. Then

00:25:50.009 --> 00:25:55.670
you test it. Interesting. On other cases, and

00:25:55.670 --> 00:25:58.890
the way I like to describe it to agents, if you

00:25:58.890 --> 00:26:03.750
arrive at a crime scene, and there's dead flies

00:26:03.750 --> 00:26:06.809
on the evidence, and there is these little things

00:26:06.809 --> 00:26:09.869
that look like fly poop, they're tiny little

00:26:09.869 --> 00:26:12.309
round black granules, then that's another type

00:26:12.309 --> 00:26:15.549
of poison called TEMEC, for example. So there

00:26:15.549 --> 00:26:20.049
is some information that can be used at the very

00:26:20.049 --> 00:26:24.960
beginning, and then once Once we have that hypothesis,

00:26:25.019 --> 00:26:28.480
then we test for different pesticides. Gotcha.

00:26:28.779 --> 00:26:31.559
So at least then the agent knows what chemical

00:26:31.559 --> 00:26:34.680
they're dealing with, right? Yes. Yep. And then

00:26:34.680 --> 00:26:39.460
over at the genetics section, what would they

00:26:39.460 --> 00:26:42.720
be able to tell us or me about the meat in these

00:26:42.720 --> 00:26:45.900
meatballs? So there's a process in which they

00:26:45.900 --> 00:26:48.880
extract the DNA from the meat. There's a very

00:26:48.880 --> 00:26:55.519
sophisticated process. They enhance the DNA by

00:26:55.519 --> 00:26:58.720
using a procedure called PCR. PCR became very

00:26:58.720 --> 00:27:00.740
famous during COVID years. Everybody wanted the

00:27:00.740 --> 00:27:02.700
PCR test. Right. A little bit more accurate.

00:27:03.359 --> 00:27:06.519
And once you do those two steps, then you do

00:27:06.519 --> 00:27:11.039
an analysis of the sequence related to the material,

00:27:11.619 --> 00:27:14.640
the DNA sequence. And that tells you, and you

00:27:14.640 --> 00:27:16.880
compare that to a database, and then that tells

00:27:16.880 --> 00:27:21.470
you what species the meat came from. In our lab,

00:27:21.750 --> 00:27:26.750
we have a extraordinarily comprehensive database

00:27:26.750 --> 00:27:30.529
of North American taxa, because that's the species

00:27:30.529 --> 00:27:34.309
we see most often. Right. OK, so that's really

00:27:34.309 --> 00:27:36.930
good information for the agent to know now. So

00:27:36.930 --> 00:27:40.569
at the conclusion of this, Agent Bragonier sending

00:27:40.569 --> 00:27:43.490
in these meatballs, he did know two things that

00:27:43.490 --> 00:27:46.549
came back from the lab. The lab said the systemic.

00:27:47.200 --> 00:27:49.980
that's in the meatballs. And so he knows it's

00:27:49.980 --> 00:27:52.759
a poison. And he knows from his investigative

00:27:52.759 --> 00:27:54.900
experience that this is a poison commonly used

00:27:54.900 --> 00:27:58.059
to kill predators in the West, like coyotes.

00:27:58.819 --> 00:28:01.740
And then other great information, he knows that

00:28:01.740 --> 00:28:05.059
these meatballs were made out of elk rather than

00:28:05.059 --> 00:28:08.960
beef or pork or something else. So that's good

00:28:08.960 --> 00:28:11.420
information for him to have. But unlike what

00:28:11.420 --> 00:28:15.000
we see on TV, those two pieces of information

00:28:15.000 --> 00:28:19.690
are are valuable, particularly the meat. But

00:28:19.690 --> 00:28:23.650
before a case can be solved, there's an important

00:28:23.650 --> 00:28:26.309
thing that needs to happen. Can you explain,

00:28:26.450 --> 00:28:28.170
I want to back up a little bit, but explain what

00:28:28.170 --> 00:28:32.329
the Locard's principle is. Yeah. So, Locard was

00:28:32.329 --> 00:28:36.009
this French dude from Lyon. He was in charge

00:28:36.009 --> 00:28:41.390
of the crime lab in Lyon, France. And he postulated

00:28:41.390 --> 00:28:43.970
or formalized something that people have known.

00:28:44.119 --> 00:28:46.380
And it's called the Locard Exchange Principle.

00:28:46.460 --> 00:28:49.559
And the idea behind the principle is that whenever

00:28:49.559 --> 00:28:55.220
a bad guy commits a crime, there is a transfer

00:28:55.220 --> 00:28:58.779
of evidence associated with the procedures or

00:28:58.779 --> 00:29:04.180
the entry or the crime itself. So even if, in

00:29:04.180 --> 00:29:08.839
a hypothetical way, if you touch somebody, and

00:29:08.839 --> 00:29:10.960
you happen to have, I don't know, grease on your

00:29:10.960 --> 00:29:13.900
hand, and you've transferred part of that evidence

00:29:13.900 --> 00:29:16.980
to your, if you're the criminal, you've transferred

00:29:16.980 --> 00:29:20.859
to the victim. And the Locard Exchange Principle

00:29:20.859 --> 00:29:25.119
is the backbone of all forensic crime scene work

00:29:25.119 --> 00:29:27.640
in which you're trying to make these linkages

00:29:27.640 --> 00:29:31.200
between three things, the crime scene, of course,

00:29:32.119 --> 00:29:38.029
the victim, and then the suspect. the subject

00:29:38.029 --> 00:29:42.829
was under investigation. Many times the victim,

00:29:43.170 --> 00:29:46.769
in human cases, 19 % of the time, 99 % of the

00:29:46.769 --> 00:29:49.549
time, the human is found at the crime scene.

00:29:49.990 --> 00:29:53.069
So those two are linked just by their location.

00:29:53.369 --> 00:29:56.609
And then the third part, the subject is what

00:29:56.609 --> 00:29:59.410
the rest of the investigation deals with. In

00:29:59.410 --> 00:30:04.049
wildlife cases, many times the victim might be

00:30:04.049 --> 00:30:08.789
in one country, the subject might be in a different

00:30:08.789 --> 00:30:11.410
country, and the evidence might be in a third

00:30:11.410 --> 00:30:15.509
place. Imagine a rhino horn from Africa. The

00:30:15.509 --> 00:30:20.950
horn itself is found in China, Asia. The subject

00:30:20.950 --> 00:30:23.009
lives in the United States, but the victim is

00:30:23.009 --> 00:30:26.210
dead in Africa. So trying to connect those through

00:30:26.210 --> 00:30:30.849
evidence is the basics of the Locard exchange

00:30:30.849 --> 00:30:33.630
principle to make a connection between all three

00:30:33.630 --> 00:30:38.190
of those. Yeah, and so where we are with with

00:30:38.190 --> 00:30:41.990
Burgonyer's case at this point is that He already

00:30:41.990 --> 00:30:44.049
knows that the meatballs came from the crime

00:30:44.049 --> 00:30:46.130
scene. He knows the poisons at the crime scene

00:30:46.130 --> 00:30:49.410
There's no victim. There's no dead body of a

00:30:49.410 --> 00:30:52.190
wolf or anything He does find a wolf track at

00:30:52.190 --> 00:30:55.750
the crime scene, but he finds dead birds He finds

00:30:55.750 --> 00:30:58.269
a dead foxes and dead coyotes, but he doesn't

00:30:58.269 --> 00:31:02.089
find any dead wolves But the most important thing

00:31:02.089 --> 00:31:05.410
is just that what he's got is valuable information

00:31:05.500 --> 00:31:08.339
But that information isn't really useful to him

00:31:08.339 --> 00:31:10.579
unless he can compare it to something, right?

00:31:11.339 --> 00:31:14.740
Correct. He's got very interesting information.

00:31:15.119 --> 00:31:17.859
And now I presume he's developing a hypothesis

00:31:17.859 --> 00:31:21.440
of how to continue, right? Exactly. And there's

00:31:21.440 --> 00:31:23.460
one other thing he collected at the crime scene.

00:31:23.839 --> 00:31:26.559
And I don't mean this. We're going to talk about

00:31:26.559 --> 00:31:29.160
it. And it's not a criticism of Agent Bregonier

00:31:29.160 --> 00:31:31.900
because, believe me, I've done this myself more

00:31:31.900 --> 00:31:35.809
than once. But he took a photograph of a boot

00:31:35.809 --> 00:31:38.589
print that he thought was highly suspicious.

00:31:38.829 --> 00:31:41.069
It was kind of connected in the same area as

00:31:41.069 --> 00:31:43.750
the meatballs. And it had a unique characteristic

00:31:43.750 --> 00:31:45.910
in that it had some damage to the tread that

00:31:45.910 --> 00:31:48.410
really made it stick out. But he took a photo

00:31:48.410 --> 00:31:52.190
of it. Normally, that photo could be submitted

00:31:52.190 --> 00:31:55.970
to the lab as what they call, what would that

00:31:55.970 --> 00:32:00.579
be, imprint evidence? But can you explain why

00:32:00.579 --> 00:32:03.339
that photo wasn't usable by the lab? I know you've

00:32:03.339 --> 00:32:09.039
seen the photo. So in order to make an association

00:32:09.039 --> 00:32:14.400
between a suspected boot and a photo, one needs

00:32:14.400 --> 00:32:18.940
to have a ruler. If you do not have a ruler when

00:32:18.940 --> 00:32:23.019
the image is taken, one can only guess of the

00:32:23.019 --> 00:32:27.519
size or the dimensions. It is feasible to arrive

00:32:27.519 --> 00:32:30.579
at a conclusion that is faulty and accuse somebody

00:32:30.579 --> 00:32:33.000
of something if you don't have the right information

00:32:33.000 --> 00:32:38.059
to start with. So if if the crime scene was photographed

00:32:38.059 --> 00:32:43.519
properly, then a ruler would have been in place.

00:32:43.940 --> 00:32:47.000
Right. But I don't want to throw anybody under

00:32:47.000 --> 00:32:50.339
the bus either. But I'd like to highlight the

00:32:50.339 --> 00:32:52.299
fact that agents typically when they're in the

00:32:52.299 --> 00:32:55.039
field, they're alone. There's a lot of things

00:32:55.039 --> 00:32:59.119
happening and There is so much going on that

00:32:59.119 --> 00:33:01.920
they just don't sometimes have the awareness

00:33:01.920 --> 00:33:04.460
that oh, yeah I I need to put a ruler next to

00:33:04.460 --> 00:33:06.339
this thing before I can take a picture of it

00:33:06.339 --> 00:33:08.779
Because they're worried about where's the next

00:33:08.779 --> 00:33:10.759
evidence? I have a bunch of other dead birds

00:33:10.759 --> 00:33:14.099
here So that's that that's why mature organizations

00:33:14.099 --> 00:33:17.380
usually have crime scene techs that arrive at

00:33:17.380 --> 00:33:20.019
a scene and they take over the Processing of

00:33:20.019 --> 00:33:22.460
a scene and the agent investigates they don't

00:33:22.460 --> 00:33:24.980
have to deal with a mundane collection measuring

00:33:25.620 --> 00:33:29.400
all of the photographing, documenting the scene.

00:33:29.819 --> 00:33:31.380
Right, because as you and I have talked about

00:33:31.380 --> 00:33:35.920
before and you pointed out to me, if you're in

00:33:35.920 --> 00:33:38.460
an agency that's large enough, has enough resources

00:33:38.460 --> 00:33:41.019
to have a separate crime scene tech team that

00:33:41.019 --> 00:33:44.319
comes out and processes, they're not invested

00:33:44.319 --> 00:33:46.240
in the investigation. They're just doing their

00:33:46.240 --> 00:33:48.960
job, just step by step by step. Whereas the agent

00:33:48.960 --> 00:33:52.259
or the detective is thinking about 50 different

00:33:52.259 --> 00:33:55.170
things while they're picking up evidence. And

00:33:55.170 --> 00:33:57.529
like you said, sometimes it's personal safety,

00:33:57.589 --> 00:33:59.650
sometimes it's, you know, coordinating other

00:33:59.650 --> 00:34:03.250
team members or whatever it is. Yeah. Yeah. And

00:34:03.250 --> 00:34:06.950
I think Agent Bergonia was the first to admit

00:34:06.950 --> 00:34:09.590
that, oh, I effed this up because I didn't take

00:34:09.590 --> 00:34:13.349
a picture with the ruler. But we've all done

00:34:13.349 --> 00:34:17.010
it. I mean, I've done it. I've done it multiple

00:34:17.010 --> 00:34:19.369
times where I've just like you said, I had a

00:34:19.369 --> 00:34:21.469
million things in my head and I forgot to put

00:34:21.469 --> 00:34:23.840
a ruler down. next to a piece of evidence that

00:34:23.840 --> 00:34:27.500
I photographed. And to this day, I can even show

00:34:27.500 --> 00:34:30.780
you to this day, even though I'm retired, I still

00:34:30.780 --> 00:34:35.139
carry in my wallet an evidence ruler. I love

00:34:35.139 --> 00:34:39.699
it. Because once I made that mistake twice, I

00:34:39.699 --> 00:34:41.780
was like, screw this. I'm just going to carry

00:34:41.780 --> 00:34:44.119
this in my personal wallet that I always have

00:34:44.119 --> 00:34:47.820
in my possession. And I continue to carry it

00:34:47.820 --> 00:34:50.139
as a good luck charm and memento of my time as

00:34:50.139 --> 00:34:56.480
an agent. That is a smart thing to do. Anyway,

00:34:56.699 --> 00:34:58.900
it turned out that the photo in his case was

00:34:58.900 --> 00:35:01.619
still valuable to him because it did show the

00:35:01.619 --> 00:35:05.099
damage to the tread. So even if now, if let's

00:35:05.099 --> 00:35:07.679
say he had put a ruler down and he later found

00:35:07.679 --> 00:35:11.179
the boots, there could be a forensic analysis

00:35:11.179 --> 00:35:13.840
of, you know, Somebody could come up with an

00:35:13.840 --> 00:35:16.440
opinion. This is the same boot or this is not

00:35:16.440 --> 00:35:20.760
That's direct evidence very valuable right correct

00:35:20.760 --> 00:35:24.320
what he was able to collect though Just documenting

00:35:24.320 --> 00:35:27.139
the damage to the boot if he later finds a boot

00:35:27.139 --> 00:35:30.679
with similar damage That is circumstantial evidence

00:35:30.679 --> 00:35:34.880
still valuable to him. It may be not quite as

00:35:34.880 --> 00:35:38.179
Devastating to the in the case, but still valuable

00:35:38.179 --> 00:35:43.559
okay, so Then what we know from having talked

00:35:43.559 --> 00:35:46.739
about this case in another episode is that Agent

00:35:46.739 --> 00:35:50.260
Bregonia really, through very good detective

00:35:50.260 --> 00:35:54.440
work, did develop a suspect. Just by his network

00:35:54.440 --> 00:35:57.880
in the Idaho area there, he did develop this

00:35:57.880 --> 00:36:01.059
suspect who was very anti -wolf and had even

00:36:01.059 --> 00:36:03.639
made some posts online about how to make these

00:36:03.639 --> 00:36:05.860
poisoned meatballs. So he's a pretty good suspect.

00:36:06.739 --> 00:36:09.869
And he developed enough evidence to to execute

00:36:09.869 --> 00:36:14.010
a search warrant at the guy's house. And at the

00:36:14.010 --> 00:36:16.949
search warrant, they found, number one, they

00:36:16.949 --> 00:36:19.530
found boots that had the same damage to the tread.

00:36:19.610 --> 00:36:22.329
So at that moment, I think Scott was like, damn,

00:36:22.369 --> 00:36:26.130
I should have had a ruler in that photo. But

00:36:26.130 --> 00:36:30.869
they also collected a bone saw. They collected

00:36:30.869 --> 00:36:34.889
saddlebags that had blood stains inside. And

00:36:34.889 --> 00:36:37.610
then they collected a bottle, a little white

00:36:37.610 --> 00:36:40.869
bottle that had a suspicious gray powdery substance

00:36:40.869 --> 00:36:43.909
in it that to Agent Brigonier looked like the

00:36:43.909 --> 00:36:47.150
same substance that was in the meatballs. So

00:36:47.150 --> 00:36:50.889
now he's going to submit that information to

00:36:50.889 --> 00:36:54.809
the lab and request some specific things from

00:36:54.809 --> 00:37:01.829
it. Let's take each item by itself. When it comes

00:37:01.829 --> 00:37:04.190
to the bloody saddlebags, if you've got saddlebags

00:37:04.190 --> 00:37:07.659
that have blood and maybe tissue in them, I think

00:37:07.659 --> 00:37:10.239
everybody who's listening, all my listeners are

00:37:10.239 --> 00:37:12.480
like, I know exactly what Agent Bregonier was

00:37:12.480 --> 00:37:15.079
going to ask the lab to do. But what kind of

00:37:15.079 --> 00:37:17.539
information could you get from that tissue and

00:37:17.539 --> 00:37:19.480
blood that was in the saddlebags and on the bone

00:37:19.480 --> 00:37:23.099
saw? Well, so from the saddlebags, of course,

00:37:23.219 --> 00:37:28.500
the blood can be characterized to what is the

00:37:28.500 --> 00:37:31.139
source of the blood, right? So we can use the

00:37:31.139 --> 00:37:34.539
same DNA techniques I described earlier to extract

00:37:34.539 --> 00:37:39.159
that blood. with that determine what species

00:37:39.159 --> 00:37:43.960
it came from. And if we have a comparison, in

00:37:43.960 --> 00:37:47.699
this case, the meatballs or a carcass of an elk,

00:37:48.320 --> 00:37:51.280
we can determine if it is the same elk or a different

00:37:51.280 --> 00:37:58.039
elk. So it is, it is one can individualize. Other

00:37:58.039 --> 00:38:03.119
things we can do if there was. proximity to the

00:38:03.119 --> 00:38:07.420
pesticide involved, we can also test the saddlebags

00:38:07.420 --> 00:38:10.639
for the presence of pesticide. So that would

00:38:10.639 --> 00:38:15.920
be a second thing that would help the hypothesis

00:38:15.920 --> 00:38:19.480
that the meatballs were carried in the saddlebags

00:38:19.480 --> 00:38:22.699
from point A to point B, for example. And in

00:38:22.699 --> 00:38:24.900
this case, in this case, that's exactly what

00:38:24.900 --> 00:38:27.519
happened. The lab came back and said, the blood

00:38:27.519 --> 00:38:30.320
and tissue on the bone saw and in the saddlebags

00:38:30.320 --> 00:38:33.079
came from an elk and came from the very same

00:38:33.079 --> 00:38:35.940
elk that those meatballs were made out of. So

00:38:35.940 --> 00:38:39.960
now, Bregonier's got key element of Locard's

00:38:39.960 --> 00:38:43.480
exchange principle, right? He can connect those

00:38:43.480 --> 00:38:46.440
saddlebags and things found in the suspect's

00:38:46.440 --> 00:38:50.179
home to that crime scene. And that's powerful

00:38:50.179 --> 00:38:52.519
evidence. Powerful evidence. Yeah, super. And

00:38:52.519 --> 00:38:54.960
you mentioned individualized, right? So it's

00:38:54.960 --> 00:38:58.199
not just This came from elk and that came from

00:38:58.199 --> 00:39:00.500
elk. It's that they came from the same elk the

00:39:00.500 --> 00:39:04.219
same elk Yeah, exactly now with regard to the

00:39:04.219 --> 00:39:08.380
poison That are there the suspicious gray powdery

00:39:08.380 --> 00:39:11.219
substance He submitted that to the lab too and

00:39:11.219 --> 00:39:14.480
that came back as the same type of poison but

00:39:14.480 --> 00:39:17.599
this is this isn't a an important distinction

00:39:17.599 --> 00:39:22.460
because Can the lab individualize? Poison or

00:39:22.460 --> 00:39:24.980
can they only say same type? Okay, we could only

00:39:24.980 --> 00:39:31.909
say it's the same chemical Okay. There's no attributes

00:39:31.909 --> 00:39:35.130
that are characteristic to a batch or to a particular

00:39:35.130 --> 00:39:37.769
type of pesticide to say it came from this bottle.

00:39:38.170 --> 00:39:41.429
It is only a test to say it is the same chemical.

00:39:42.329 --> 00:39:44.309
Excellent. But I will point out, since we're

00:39:44.309 --> 00:39:47.150
talking about TEMEC, that it was a highly controlled

00:39:47.150 --> 00:39:51.130
substance. It's not something that you can get

00:39:51.130 --> 00:39:53.769
at Home Depot, for example. It's highly controlled

00:39:53.769 --> 00:39:57.449
because it is so dangerous. Yeah, so there's

00:39:57.449 --> 00:40:00.530
hopefully some type of paper trail that would

00:40:00.530 --> 00:40:05.570
help. Maybe just to at least show that the suspect

00:40:05.570 --> 00:40:07.650
had purchased Temick at some point or acquired

00:40:07.650 --> 00:40:10.650
it somehow. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Temick is one of

00:40:10.650 --> 00:40:14.010
those things. I mean, talk about how dangerous

00:40:14.010 --> 00:40:18.110
it is, Ed. I mean, if a human being, an investigator,

00:40:18.309 --> 00:40:20.289
were to breathe it in or get it on their skin,

00:40:20.429 --> 00:40:22.869
what could happen to that person? He would die.

00:40:27.330 --> 00:40:33.730
It has the same potency as the some of the poisons

00:40:33.730 --> 00:40:36.309
they use for war, right? They're illegal, but

00:40:36.309 --> 00:40:42.409
it is the same kind of potency in terms of...

00:40:42.409 --> 00:40:48.150
It has a threshold limit value that is very low.

00:40:48.230 --> 00:40:50.849
So if you breathe it, you can start developing

00:40:50.849 --> 00:40:53.570
symptoms. And if you breathe it repeatedly, it

00:40:53.570 --> 00:40:57.179
could kill you. Wow. So it's very dangerous.

00:40:59.360 --> 00:41:03.079
I don't know if in the previous episode you talked

00:41:03.079 --> 00:41:04.880
about it but one of the terrible things about

00:41:04.880 --> 00:41:08.260
these kind of cases is that there's this ring

00:41:08.260 --> 00:41:10.960
of death that they talk about in which not only

00:41:10.960 --> 00:41:14.599
does the pesticide kill the animal that it was

00:41:14.599 --> 00:41:17.400
meant to be but other animals come and feed on

00:41:17.400 --> 00:41:20.659
the primary victim and then they die and so many

00:41:20.659 --> 00:41:23.900
times these crime scenes are Rings of death in

00:41:23.900 --> 00:41:26.800
which you have multiple individuals of multiple

00:41:26.800 --> 00:41:29.880
species all dead because of one poisoning event

00:41:29.880 --> 00:41:32.380
Terrible. Yeah, and that's exactly what happened

00:41:32.380 --> 00:41:35.679
in this case when agent Pergonia investigated

00:41:35.679 --> 00:41:38.760
the scene. Initially. He did find dead coyote

00:41:38.760 --> 00:41:42.900
dead red fox multiple dead Scavenging birds like

00:41:42.900 --> 00:41:45.320
magpies and crows and things like that. So yeah,

00:41:45.400 --> 00:41:48.880
just indiscriminate and in other other agents

00:41:48.880 --> 00:41:51.889
on this season I've talked about that too, as

00:41:51.889 --> 00:41:55.389
well, that just kind of the indiscriminate casualties

00:41:55.389 --> 00:41:58.510
caused by poison. What about if somebody were

00:41:58.510 --> 00:42:00.590
to get this TEMEC on their skin? Could it be

00:42:00.590 --> 00:42:03.230
absorbed into the skin and be harmful? It does

00:42:03.230 --> 00:42:07.730
absorb through the skin. Not related to this

00:42:07.730 --> 00:42:12.329
case, but in a different case, different state,

00:42:12.969 --> 00:42:17.409
we had an officer pick up some evidence of a

00:42:17.409 --> 00:42:21.210
bait that was laced with a Carbamate which is

00:42:21.210 --> 00:42:24.429
the the type of drugs that these belong to put

00:42:24.429 --> 00:42:27.309
it on the in the trunk of their car and started

00:42:27.309 --> 00:42:31.050
driving back to the office and started getting

00:42:31.050 --> 00:42:37.289
symptoms of carbamate poisoning and very dangerous

00:42:37.289 --> 00:42:41.289
because the officer became aware that this this

00:42:41.289 --> 00:42:44.690
is bad and stopped and took measures I don't

00:42:44.690 --> 00:42:47.989
know what measures were but That agent ended

00:42:47.989 --> 00:42:49.849
up going to the hospital for a couple of days

00:42:49.849 --> 00:42:55.409
because of just of the smell of the of the carbamate

00:42:55.409 --> 00:43:01.389
Being volatilizing within the car Space I think

00:43:01.389 --> 00:43:03.670
very dangerous super dangerous and I think you

00:43:03.670 --> 00:43:06.190
know, it's it's on par with how you know urban

00:43:06.190 --> 00:43:09.469
police officers often have to be aware of fentanyl

00:43:09.469 --> 00:43:13.829
Issues when they arrest people Wildlife law enforcement

00:43:13.829 --> 00:43:16.510
has of course drug issues too because we encounter

00:43:16.510 --> 00:43:19.329
people with drugs all the time So we also have

00:43:19.329 --> 00:43:21.929
to be aware of things like fentanyl, but unlike

00:43:21.929 --> 00:43:26.389
urban police Detectives or investigators. We

00:43:26.389 --> 00:43:29.550
have these unique poisons that are used for animals

00:43:29.550 --> 00:43:32.429
to kill and poach animals that can be extremely

00:43:32.429 --> 00:43:36.070
dangerous and I remember it was a Major point

00:43:36.070 --> 00:43:37.909
of training that you gave us and we're issued

00:43:37.909 --> 00:43:40.130
respirators and all the gloves and equipment.

00:43:40.170 --> 00:43:43.420
We need to protect us But it's so easy as an

00:43:43.420 --> 00:43:45.239
investigator to just be like, oh, I'm out in

00:43:45.239 --> 00:43:48.400
the beautiful wilderness of Idaho. The air is

00:43:48.400 --> 00:43:52.280
clean. It's beautiful. And you open that meatball.

00:43:52.340 --> 00:43:55.300
And if you don't have gloves on or you accidentally

00:43:55.300 --> 00:43:58.440
get some of that chemical up into the air and

00:43:58.440 --> 00:44:00.780
you breathe it in, like you said, you could be

00:44:00.780 --> 00:44:05.019
really sick in a very short time or dead. There's

00:44:05.019 --> 00:44:07.400
been reported cases in less than five minutes.

00:44:07.460 --> 00:44:10.079
People start getting symptoms of poisoning. That's

00:44:10.079 --> 00:44:13.599
very fast. Really scary stuff. Very scary. Yeah.

00:44:14.380 --> 00:44:17.980
So the cool thing is, though, that now once the

00:44:17.980 --> 00:44:20.159
search warrant was done, Agent Bregonier has

00:44:20.159 --> 00:44:24.099
direct evidence that the elk at the scene, the

00:44:24.099 --> 00:44:25.960
meatballs at the scene, is the same elk that

00:44:25.960 --> 00:44:28.139
was found in the suspect's house. And he has

00:44:28.139 --> 00:44:30.420
circumstantial evidence that the poisons are

00:44:30.420 --> 00:44:32.920
the same, because they're the same type. So that's

00:44:32.920 --> 00:44:35.590
great. There was another thing that everybody

00:44:35.590 --> 00:44:37.789
laughed about during this investigation that

00:44:37.789 --> 00:44:40.610
actually was collected by a brand new state game

00:44:40.610 --> 00:44:43.210
warden who really like was so bright -eyed and

00:44:43.210 --> 00:44:45.510
bushy -tailed he He was so excited to be on the

00:44:45.510 --> 00:44:47.369
crime scene. He really didn't know quite what

00:44:47.369 --> 00:44:49.190
he was doing but he just wanted to do everything

00:44:49.190 --> 00:44:52.909
and He had found a tube of these boot prints

00:44:52.909 --> 00:44:55.250
kind of side -by -side and in front of them He

00:44:55.250 --> 00:44:58.449
found yellow snow which was presumed to be urine

00:44:58.449 --> 00:45:01.550
from the from the suspect. So everybody kind

00:45:01.550 --> 00:45:04.269
of snickered about it. And there was some conversation

00:45:04.269 --> 00:45:06.389
of, is that important? Should we collect the

00:45:06.389 --> 00:45:08.289
yellow snow? And nobody wanted to collect yellow

00:45:08.289 --> 00:45:11.590
snow, of course. But the game warden just bent

00:45:11.590 --> 00:45:13.989
over, scooped it up, put it in a plastic bag,

00:45:14.949 --> 00:45:17.230
and labeled it as evidence. And it kind of went

00:45:17.230 --> 00:45:20.190
into the freezer and sat there for a while. But

00:45:20.190 --> 00:45:22.650
once Agent Bergoner got to this point in the

00:45:22.650 --> 00:45:24.829
case, he thought, well, maybe that yellow snow

00:45:24.829 --> 00:45:31.369
might be important. So that raises two questions.

00:45:32.719 --> 00:45:36.119
He's agent Bergonia is hoping he can find DNA

00:45:36.119 --> 00:45:39.239
in urine, which my understanding is not very

00:45:39.239 --> 00:45:42.800
easy to do But more importantly, can he submit

00:45:42.800 --> 00:45:46.880
that to the Clark -Baven forensics lab for analysis

00:45:46.880 --> 00:45:52.059
of human DNA? No, our lab is very much focused

00:45:52.059 --> 00:45:57.440
on only non -human evidence. Okay There's about

00:45:57.440 --> 00:46:01.420
300 plus forensic labs in the United States that

00:46:01.420 --> 00:46:05.079
do human cases, including federal labs, FBI,

00:46:05.719 --> 00:46:10.699
and so forth. And so we have focused only on

00:46:10.699 --> 00:46:17.659
non -human related cases. And so if somebody

00:46:17.659 --> 00:46:20.239
were to have that kind of question, going to

00:46:20.239 --> 00:46:22.900
a human crime lab would be much better. Right.

00:46:23.239 --> 00:46:27.760
And in my I worked with the FBI Forensic Lab

00:46:27.760 --> 00:46:32.000
multiple times during my career on things that

00:46:32.000 --> 00:46:34.860
your lab couldn't do. Not that it couldn't, it

00:46:34.860 --> 00:46:36.940
just chose not to. It didn't have the facilities

00:46:36.940 --> 00:46:38.840
to do that. And it was always related to human

00:46:38.840 --> 00:46:44.119
DNA. And FBI Lab will do that work for free if

00:46:44.119 --> 00:46:46.059
you're another federal agency. They don't question

00:46:46.059 --> 00:46:47.659
it. You just submit it and they'll do it for

00:46:47.659 --> 00:46:51.230
you. So that's how an agent would go about getting

00:46:51.230 --> 00:46:53.489
that support outside of our lab. If they had

00:46:53.489 --> 00:46:55.670
human DNA they need tested, they would go to,

00:46:55.769 --> 00:47:00.710
like you said, a human criminal lab. Just kind

00:47:00.710 --> 00:47:03.050
of to refresh everybody's memory, though, what

00:47:03.050 --> 00:47:08.789
happened in that case was Agent Bergonier learned

00:47:08.789 --> 00:47:10.809
from the lab that he was going to submit the

00:47:10.809 --> 00:47:13.130
urine to that it was almost impossible to get

00:47:13.130 --> 00:47:16.050
human DNA out of urine. The only exception is,

00:47:16.050 --> 00:47:19.409
apparently, if the person has a cold immediately

00:47:19.409 --> 00:47:22.090
before or while they're urinating. So at the

00:47:22.090 --> 00:47:24.150
time they're urinating, or if they had a bad

00:47:24.150 --> 00:47:26.889
cold before, they will shed cells out of their

00:47:26.889 --> 00:47:31.170
urine. And Agent Bregonier remembered that one

00:47:31.170 --> 00:47:34.630
of the things he had seen in the email evidence

00:47:34.630 --> 00:47:37.389
and online evidence that the suspect had posted

00:47:37.389 --> 00:47:39.949
was that about a week before the meatballs were

00:47:39.949 --> 00:47:44.340
distributed, this person Mr. Sundles had complained

00:47:44.340 --> 00:47:48.760
online about having had the flu. And so Agent

00:47:48.760 --> 00:47:51.139
Bergoner was able to get a court order to take

00:47:51.139 --> 00:47:54.059
a sample of Mr. Sundles' DNA to compare with

00:47:54.059 --> 00:47:56.599
the urine. But before the lab could even do the

00:47:56.599 --> 00:47:59.900
analysis, Sundles pled guilty. Instantly, he

00:47:59.900 --> 00:48:05.320
knew his goose was cooked. Great outcome. Great

00:48:05.320 --> 00:48:07.800
outcome. Super outcome. Gotta love it. Gotta

00:48:07.800 --> 00:48:11.230
love it. So, you know, this is a classic example

00:48:11.230 --> 00:48:15.550
of a, this case resulted in the first ever conviction

00:48:15.550 --> 00:48:18.590
of a person for attempt to kill an endangered

00:48:18.590 --> 00:48:22.449
species. So, Bergonir never found a body of a

00:48:22.449 --> 00:48:25.210
wolf. There was no evidence that a wolf was ever

00:48:25.210 --> 00:48:27.329
killed. Probably was because they found wolf

00:48:27.329 --> 00:48:30.349
tracks in the area. But they never found a dead

00:48:30.349 --> 00:48:33.329
body of a wolf. But he was able to charge Sundals

00:48:33.329 --> 00:48:36.489
with attempt because of the, obviously they put

00:48:36.489 --> 00:48:39.489
the poison out and Other evidence, circumstantial

00:48:39.489 --> 00:48:41.969
and direct, pointed to him intentionally trying

00:48:41.969 --> 00:48:45.369
to kill wolves. But it's a case that could not

00:48:45.369 --> 00:48:47.550
have been solved without lab support, which is

00:48:47.550 --> 00:48:51.489
one of the things I really love about it. The

00:48:51.489 --> 00:48:55.090
results from the lab with regard to the poison

00:48:55.090 --> 00:49:00.489
and the DNA, what you called specific identification

00:49:00.489 --> 00:49:05.309
with the elk. Individualization. Individualization,

00:49:05.309 --> 00:49:08.519
that's what it was. The case couldn't have been

00:49:08.519 --> 00:49:10.519
made without lab support, which I think is just

00:49:10.519 --> 00:49:13.519
one of the coolest. I love it when a plan comes

00:49:13.519 --> 00:49:19.719
together. So in your experience, is that kind

00:49:19.719 --> 00:49:23.280
of typical of how the lab interacted with agents

00:49:23.280 --> 00:49:26.159
in the field and with positive results like that?

00:49:26.480 --> 00:49:31.219
Very much so. Very much so. Sometimes the lab

00:49:31.219 --> 00:49:36.380
contributes to support a hypothesis. Sometimes

00:49:36.809 --> 00:49:40.750
The work done can only be done in a forensics

00:49:40.750 --> 00:49:49.650
lab. For example, making a match between, let

00:49:49.650 --> 00:49:53.489
me make it real here, a bare gallbladder that

00:49:53.489 --> 00:49:57.750
is found in a suspect's home versus a bare carcass

00:49:57.750 --> 00:50:01.230
found in the field. Individualizing those two

00:50:01.230 --> 00:50:03.469
pieces, meaning using DNA to say they came from

00:50:03.469 --> 00:50:06.630
the source, is the same case, which is an essential

00:50:06.670 --> 00:50:10.630
component of this subject was involved in the

00:50:10.630 --> 00:50:13.750
murder of that bear in a different state. And

00:50:13.750 --> 00:50:21.070
if it doesn't, then there you go. Then we don't

00:50:21.070 --> 00:50:23.489
support the hypothesis of the agent and he killed

00:50:23.489 --> 00:50:25.090
the bear from a different place, just depending

00:50:25.090 --> 00:50:29.590
on the laws of the state. Exactly. And the lab

00:50:29.590 --> 00:50:32.550
reports that agents get back are very neutral.

00:50:32.690 --> 00:50:35.789
And matter of fact, they will simply say, there

00:50:35.789 --> 00:50:38.769
was no match or it is a match with no commentary

00:50:38.769 --> 00:50:42.630
beyond that. Exactly. It's pretty dry. Yeah.

00:50:43.090 --> 00:50:47.550
And I think that makes lab personnel such credible

00:50:47.550 --> 00:50:52.150
and such valuable witnesses. There's never anything

00:50:52.150 --> 00:50:55.349
in the conversations between them and investigators.

00:50:55.550 --> 00:50:58.329
There's never anything in written reports from

00:50:58.329 --> 00:51:00.670
them that would indicate that they are invested

00:51:00.670 --> 00:51:04.360
or biased in any way, which I think is just It's

00:51:04.360 --> 00:51:07.099
an amazing service that the service has that

00:51:07.099 --> 00:51:10.659
have this forensics lab and it ought to be cherished

00:51:10.659 --> 00:51:12.579
and it ought to be nurtured and it ought to be

00:51:12.579 --> 00:51:15.500
cared for because it is such a valuable tool.

00:51:16.719 --> 00:51:19.099
And I would I would agree with you. The lab has

00:51:19.099 --> 00:51:22.800
amazing personnel and they're there to serve

00:51:22.800 --> 00:51:24.880
law enforcement. I mean, that's that's a role.

00:51:25.260 --> 00:51:28.260
Yeah. And it's not necessarily limited to federal.

00:51:28.619 --> 00:51:31.219
The lab will sometimes do work on behalf of the

00:51:31.219 --> 00:51:32.960
states, too, if a state has a particular issue.

00:51:33.500 --> 00:51:36.420
Yeah. And many states now are starting to develop

00:51:36.420 --> 00:51:39.239
their own wildlife forensics labs. California

00:51:39.239 --> 00:51:40.940
has one, for example. But they have different

00:51:40.940 --> 00:51:44.039
capabilities. And I think it's really valuable

00:51:44.039 --> 00:51:49.219
to always know that the Fed's job is to support

00:51:49.219 --> 00:51:52.019
not only their own agents, but law enforcement

00:51:52.019 --> 00:51:55.639
in general. And so like the FBI supports local

00:51:55.639 --> 00:51:57.719
law enforcement, so does the Fish and Wildlife

00:51:57.719 --> 00:52:00.949
Service support local. Wildlife agencies state

00:52:00.949 --> 00:52:03.150
wildlife agencies and the lab will do their work

00:52:03.150 --> 00:52:06.030
as well if they if needed or if they can Yeah,

00:52:06.329 --> 00:52:09.369
very cool. So looking back on your career ed

00:52:09.369 --> 00:52:13.710
a long career What are some like are there any

00:52:13.710 --> 00:52:15.789
cases that like really stood out to you is like

00:52:15.789 --> 00:52:19.269
wow That was really one of my favorite all -time

00:52:19.269 --> 00:52:22.130
Things we did together that came out. Well anything

00:52:22.130 --> 00:52:25.699
like that that kind of jumps out at you I think

00:52:25.699 --> 00:52:28.840
I kind of touched on it on passing in the first

00:52:28.840 --> 00:52:33.139
few minutes of this interview, but we at one

00:52:33.139 --> 00:52:37.760
point worked for about five years determining

00:52:37.760 --> 00:52:44.360
if walruses' mortalities up in Alaska were wasteful

00:52:44.360 --> 00:52:49.500
subsistence takes. There was one year that there

00:52:49.500 --> 00:52:53.590
was over 500 walruses washed ashore. on the northern

00:52:53.590 --> 00:52:58.789
Seward Peninsula and that particular case was

00:52:58.789 --> 00:53:02.070
you know when investigators started talking to

00:53:02.070 --> 00:53:04.949
the locals the statement was that yeah that's

00:53:04.949 --> 00:53:07.429
the Russians killing the walruses and then they

00:53:07.429 --> 00:53:10.670
take the heads and then the carcasses float over.

00:53:11.510 --> 00:53:15.550
That led to about five years of work trying to

00:53:15.550 --> 00:53:19.289
figure out marine currents, benthic feeding,

00:53:20.489 --> 00:53:24.269
The whole aspect about it, tephanomic studies

00:53:24.269 --> 00:53:26.630
about what happens when a walrus's head is cut

00:53:26.630 --> 00:53:28.230
off and thrown into the water and comes back

00:53:28.230 --> 00:53:32.289
out, and experiments offshore, talking to people

00:53:32.289 --> 00:53:36.449
who had security clearance to know submarine

00:53:36.449 --> 00:53:39.710
pathways and currents. And it was a fantastic

00:53:39.710 --> 00:53:44.469
case. And at the end of five years, we were able

00:53:44.469 --> 00:53:50.960
to share with the Walrus Escoe Commission, the

00:53:50.960 --> 00:53:55.719
findings. And so the wasteful subsistence hunting

00:53:55.719 --> 00:53:59.480
went down from over 95 % wasteful hunting in

00:53:59.480 --> 00:54:02.840
one particular year to less than 12 % after five

00:54:02.840 --> 00:54:06.139
years. So great, great for the resource. Some

00:54:06.139 --> 00:54:10.119
people went to jail. We had some undercover people

00:54:10.119 --> 00:54:16.719
who confirmed all the science that we had. it

00:54:16.719 --> 00:54:19.960
had an impact on the population of walrus that

00:54:19.960 --> 00:54:26.320
was obedient. It's not often that in the work

00:54:26.320 --> 00:54:29.420
that we do, either the agents or the lab people,

00:54:29.900 --> 00:54:35.639
do you get to see the impact to a whole species

00:54:35.639 --> 00:54:39.699
of a particular piece of work. That was cool.

00:54:39.960 --> 00:54:43.039
Very cool, especially a positive impact. If you

00:54:43.039 --> 00:54:45.460
do see an impact, often it's a negative impact,

00:54:45.480 --> 00:54:50.159
right? Good point. Good point. Yes. So it was

00:54:50.159 --> 00:54:54.519
good. Was that, by any chance, do you remember,

00:54:54.679 --> 00:54:59.599
was that Operation Whiteout? No. I don't know

00:54:59.599 --> 00:55:01.460
what the operation name was because, you know,

00:55:01.599 --> 00:55:03.239
we were lab people. They never tell us what the

00:55:03.239 --> 00:55:06.969
operation name was. Just the lab geeks. That's

00:55:06.969 --> 00:55:13.809
true. That's true. But it took about five years

00:55:13.809 --> 00:55:16.650
to really put it all together. Keep studying,

00:55:17.150 --> 00:55:21.110
doing surveys, figuring out what each walrus

00:55:21.110 --> 00:55:22.989
has died of when we're finding them at the beach.

00:55:25.710 --> 00:55:27.409
I don't know if you've been up to that area,

00:55:27.429 --> 00:55:30.650
but that involved flying and supercubs. And anytime

00:55:30.650 --> 00:55:33.539
you saw a walrus landing on the beach, doing

00:55:33.539 --> 00:55:37.280
our thing, taking off, landing again. So the

00:55:37.280 --> 00:55:40.440
risk involved was kind of intense over time.

00:55:40.539 --> 00:55:45.019
But it was wildly successful for the species

00:55:45.019 --> 00:55:47.519
case. Very cool. You mentioned a couple of terms

00:55:47.519 --> 00:55:49.380
in there that I think I want to make sure listeners

00:55:49.380 --> 00:55:53.900
are aware of. Subsistence waste. Up in Alaska,

00:55:53.940 --> 00:55:56.380
Alaska natives are allowed to kill certain species

00:55:56.380 --> 00:56:00.340
that other people would not because they're allowed

00:56:00.340 --> 00:56:02.340
to do what's called subsistence hunting, which

00:56:02.340 --> 00:56:05.230
is You know culturally significant traditional

00:56:05.230 --> 00:56:07.510
hunting, but they're not allowed to waste, you

00:56:07.510 --> 00:56:09.469
know They're supposed to use the animal as they

00:56:09.469 --> 00:56:11.730
would have traditionally, but what was happening

00:56:11.730 --> 00:56:13.329
up there? They were taking the heads and why

00:56:13.329 --> 00:56:15.530
were they taking the heads and only the ivory

00:56:15.530 --> 00:56:18.210
tusks? They wanted the ivory tusks. Yep, and

00:56:18.210 --> 00:56:21.289
at that point You know the terrible terrible

00:56:21.289 --> 00:56:24.409
story in terms of the legal commercial trade,

00:56:24.409 --> 00:56:28.460
but at that point the native people were selling

00:56:28.460 --> 00:56:32.239
one tusk for two marijuana joints, putting the

00:56:32.239 --> 00:56:36.940
value of a walrus at four joints. It's just pathetic.

00:56:37.579 --> 00:56:41.119
Yeah, pathetic. So the work that you did resulted

00:56:41.119 --> 00:56:43.880
in, you know, poking a hole in this story about

00:56:43.880 --> 00:56:46.559
Russians having killed the walrus and allowed

00:56:46.559 --> 00:56:49.019
for some enforcement work to have a positive

00:56:49.019 --> 00:56:52.210
result, yeah? Exactly. Yeah. Exactly. There was

00:56:52.210 --> 00:56:54.269
one word you used that I'm not familiar with.

00:56:54.449 --> 00:56:56.510
It began with a T and it had something to do

00:56:56.510 --> 00:56:59.190
with - Oh, a typhonomy. Yeah. What is that? Explain

00:56:59.190 --> 00:57:01.809
what that is. I never heard of that. The typhonomy

00:57:01.809 --> 00:57:04.590
is the study of what happens to things after

00:57:04.590 --> 00:57:07.929
they die, basically. Okay. So, you know, the

00:57:07.929 --> 00:57:12.409
simplest idea is if you have a bone left on the

00:57:12.409 --> 00:57:15.389
surface of, I don't know, some animal died and

00:57:15.389 --> 00:57:18.809
the bones, you know, it becomes, the bone starts

00:57:18.809 --> 00:57:22.679
showing. How can we determine how long ago this

00:57:22.679 --> 00:57:26.780
animal died by looking at markings on the bone?

00:57:27.059 --> 00:57:29.760
That would be an example of taphonomic changes

00:57:29.760 --> 00:57:33.460
over time. Got it. That could also be applied

00:57:33.460 --> 00:57:36.980
in different scenarios, right? The accumulation

00:57:36.980 --> 00:57:39.880
of grease after somebody dies is a taphonomic

00:57:39.880 --> 00:57:43.579
change that happens. So there's multiple scenarios.

00:57:43.980 --> 00:57:46.420
And so for us determining when a walrus died

00:57:46.420 --> 00:57:49.969
or what happened to part of its exposed cervical

00:57:49.969 --> 00:57:53.849
vertebrae was a taphonomic study that we ended

00:57:53.849 --> 00:57:57.190
up publishing that was really the key to determine

00:57:57.190 --> 00:58:01.710
if a walrus was killed only for its head or there

00:58:01.710 --> 00:58:05.570
was actual subsistence take. Interesting. Also

00:58:05.570 --> 00:58:08.650
presumably shows that it more than likely was

00:58:08.650 --> 00:58:10.750
not killed in a faraway country and then floated

00:58:10.750 --> 00:58:13.969
over here over a period of weeks. Exactly. Well,

00:58:14.030 --> 00:58:16.789
it turns out that it's impossible for something

00:58:16.789 --> 00:58:18.670
to float over from Russia. That's kind of like

00:58:18.670 --> 00:58:21.570
what we found out. Ah, interesting. Because of

00:58:21.570 --> 00:58:23.150
the current, current patterns. Because of the

00:58:23.150 --> 00:58:26.050
currents and there was some great supporting

00:58:26.050 --> 00:58:29.369
evidence. There was a group of religious people

00:58:29.369 --> 00:58:32.010
who wanted to convert Russians, I guess, that

00:58:32.010 --> 00:58:35.090
live on the Eastern side of Russia. Okay. So

00:58:35.090 --> 00:58:40.030
they took a, they took a bunch of balls and Opened

00:58:40.030 --> 00:58:42.590
them put a Bible inside and sealed these balls

00:58:42.590 --> 00:58:45.929
and they had hundreds and you know, they went

00:58:45.929 --> 00:58:51.050
to a place north of Gnome put them in the water

00:58:51.050 --> 00:58:52.969
with the idea that they just float over and then

00:58:52.969 --> 00:58:55.369
they would all be saved over there somehow and

00:58:55.369 --> 00:58:57.469
And so they all kind of went around and then

00:58:57.469 --> 00:58:59.389
end up in the northern shores of the Seaward

00:58:59.389 --> 00:59:02.730
Peninsula So that was that was a really good

00:59:04.650 --> 00:59:07.309
experiment from our purposes to show that if

00:59:07.309 --> 00:59:09.809
you kill something in the Bering Strait, where

00:59:09.809 --> 00:59:13.969
it usually ends up being, its body eventually

00:59:13.969 --> 00:59:17.409
shows up in the Northern Sierra Peninsula. So

00:59:17.409 --> 00:59:20.469
we were able to identify, pinpoint some areas,

00:59:20.730 --> 00:59:22.969
very pretty exactly actually, where the portalities

00:59:22.969 --> 00:59:25.650
were happening. Interesting. Indicating that

00:59:25.650 --> 00:59:27.650
they weren't happening as the local natives said

00:59:27.650 --> 00:59:30.869
they were? Yes. So they were not Russians killing

00:59:30.869 --> 00:59:36.650
them. Interesting. Perhaps one of the most gratifying

00:59:36.650 --> 00:59:40.989
science experiments I've done was that because

00:59:40.989 --> 00:59:44.010
when we presented all of this to the Alaska and

00:59:44.010 --> 00:59:46.949
Eskimo Commission, I had a gentleman who was

00:59:46.949 --> 00:59:49.550
the chairman of the commission come up to me

00:59:49.550 --> 00:59:52.210
after the presentation and said something to

00:59:52.210 --> 00:59:55.750
the effect of, we knew what we were doing. We

00:59:55.750 --> 00:59:57.929
just didn't know that you knew what we were doing.

00:59:59.710 --> 01:00:02.269
And it was fantastic, you know, it was, it was

01:00:02.269 --> 01:00:05.570
a really, because a lot of times the elders were

01:00:05.570 --> 01:00:08.030
really against this discriminant killing just

01:00:08.030 --> 01:00:09.889
for the ivory. They, they weren't, they weren't

01:00:09.889 --> 01:00:12.369
part of it, but they didn't have, they didn't

01:00:12.369 --> 01:00:15.789
have the enforcement to stop it. Right. Right.

01:00:15.789 --> 01:00:18.309
They're part of the community. Right. So it was,

01:00:18.309 --> 01:00:21.309
it was fun. That's a good case. That's awesome.

01:00:21.489 --> 01:00:23.610
Uh, real quickly, what do you see kind of on

01:00:23.610 --> 01:00:25.710
the horizon? You, you know, you're recently retired.

01:00:25.869 --> 01:00:29.320
What's, what's an emerging. trend or something

01:00:29.320 --> 01:00:32.260
emerging that the lab needs to be paying attention

01:00:32.260 --> 01:00:37.260
to. Can you think of anything? So at my career

01:00:37.260 --> 01:00:39.920
at the lab, we see these phases, you know, so

01:00:39.920 --> 01:00:42.260
at one point there was a lot of ivory cases and

01:00:42.260 --> 01:00:43.739
then those died down. Then there was a whole

01:00:43.739 --> 01:00:45.679
bunch of gallbladder cases and then they called

01:00:45.679 --> 01:00:49.719
that, that was caviar. Caviar. Swamp was caviar.

01:00:49.780 --> 01:00:51.840
They died down. There's these different phases.

01:00:52.320 --> 01:00:54.699
I think the last phase that we saw that it seems

01:00:54.699 --> 01:00:57.280
to be wrapping up is timber. We just finished

01:00:57.280 --> 01:00:59.920
doing a whole bunch of timber cases. Where it's

01:00:59.920 --> 01:01:02.500
going, I have no idea. Our agents will surprise

01:01:02.500 --> 01:01:05.079
us and they'll say, how come you're not ready

01:01:05.079 --> 01:01:08.900
to do a case right now, you know? And it will

01:01:08.900 --> 01:01:13.679
be something that requires research. Hard to

01:01:13.679 --> 01:01:15.739
tell because, you know, all it takes is one phone

01:01:15.739 --> 01:01:19.239
call and us to change directions. Yeah. Yeah.

01:01:19.320 --> 01:01:20.860
That was, that was my experience too. It was

01:01:20.860 --> 01:01:24.000
very cyclical. And I was part of that caviar.

01:01:24.039 --> 01:01:26.679
We did a lot of caviar cases in Los Angeles during

01:01:26.679 --> 01:01:30.460
that time that caviar was the rage. And yeah,

01:01:30.460 --> 01:01:33.119
I think I like to tell myself that that's the

01:01:33.119 --> 01:01:35.659
result of good enforcement work. The fact that

01:01:35.659 --> 01:01:38.219
it kind of goes away for a while. Yeah. I think

01:01:38.219 --> 01:01:40.699
it shows that we've been on top of it. We've

01:01:40.699 --> 01:01:42.940
made some good cases and people go underground

01:01:42.940 --> 01:01:46.920
or stop for a while. If I had to guess and, you

01:01:46.920 --> 01:01:50.840
know, guess is as good as the next big thing

01:01:50.840 --> 01:01:53.070
is going to be it doesn't matter what the species

01:01:53.070 --> 01:01:58.570
is, is it wild versus captive bred? You know,

01:01:58.989 --> 01:02:00.949
Namibia has a bunch of rhinos, right, that have

01:02:00.949 --> 01:02:04.269
been captive bred. So is this horn really coming

01:02:04.269 --> 01:02:10.050
from the captive bred population or not? Or parrots,

01:02:10.349 --> 01:02:13.289
you know, captive bred parrot is not wild or

01:02:13.289 --> 01:02:16.690
primates, the same kind of question. So I think

01:02:16.690 --> 01:02:20.469
those questions are going to require a recommitment

01:02:20.469 --> 01:02:24.639
to funding the lab. Yes. To do some testing that

01:02:24.639 --> 01:02:26.760
is not available right now. Right. You know,

01:02:26.780 --> 01:02:30.519
we know what the science is, but that'll be expensive.

01:02:30.920 --> 01:02:33.880
Yeah. I have a suspicion about what the next

01:02:33.880 --> 01:02:36.739
wild animal craze is going to be, but I'm not

01:02:36.739 --> 01:02:37.699
going to say it because I don't want to give

01:02:37.699 --> 01:02:42.219
anybody ideas. Good. I'll talk to you. Please

01:02:42.219 --> 01:02:45.679
do not. No, I don't know how many listeners I've

01:02:45.679 --> 01:02:49.750
got. the People's Republic of China, but I don't

01:02:49.750 --> 01:02:51.530
want to give it, if I have even one, I don't

01:02:51.530 --> 01:02:53.369
want to give them an idea about what animal I

01:02:53.369 --> 01:02:55.369
think it's going to be next on their radar screen.

01:02:56.510 --> 01:03:01.389
Well, and so, and so, uh, yeah. So, well, Ed,

01:03:01.389 --> 01:03:05.090
uh, first of all, let me just say, I appreciate

01:03:05.090 --> 01:03:07.590
so much the work that you did at the lab. Having

01:03:07.590 --> 01:03:10.750
been an agent myself, the lab was a friend, a

01:03:10.750 --> 01:03:14.199
lifeline and a savior all in one package. And

01:03:14.199 --> 01:03:16.760
I really appreciated the work that the lab did

01:03:16.760 --> 01:03:20.440
for me personally on my investigations. And you

01:03:20.440 --> 01:03:21.920
were a big part of that. You were always you

01:03:21.920 --> 01:03:23.980
always answered your phone. You were always polite.

01:03:24.519 --> 01:03:26.500
You never talked. You never even when I asked

01:03:26.500 --> 01:03:29.320
you a stupid question, you never talked to me.

01:03:30.099 --> 01:03:32.820
There is no such thing as good questions. Well,

01:03:33.199 --> 01:03:35.019
yes, there is. And we know we know that there

01:03:35.019 --> 01:03:36.880
is such a thing as a stupid question. And I'm

01:03:36.880 --> 01:03:39.940
sure I've asked a few. But listen, you know,

01:03:40.059 --> 01:03:42.630
you were an excellent. you know, part of the

01:03:42.630 --> 01:03:45.489
lab, great deputy director, you led there with

01:03:45.489 --> 01:03:48.010
great distinction. And I just really appreciate

01:03:48.010 --> 01:03:50.710
the work that you did. Thank you so much. Well,

01:03:50.710 --> 01:03:53.429
thank you. You know, I've always been impressed

01:03:53.429 --> 01:03:55.530
by the kind of cases you've done. Well, thanks.

01:03:55.889 --> 01:03:59.949
You've had some amazing stories, though. So,

01:03:59.949 --> 01:04:03.750
you know. Well, I'm glad you think so. I'm definitely

01:04:03.750 --> 01:04:06.670
enjoying this podcast as an avenue to tell other

01:04:06.670 --> 01:04:08.769
agent stories, because I just think this agency

01:04:08.769 --> 01:04:11.110
is full of great people and full of great stories.

01:04:12.139 --> 01:04:14.880
So true. So thank you so much for your time.

01:04:14.940 --> 01:04:17.420
Thanks for joining us. I really appreciate it.

01:04:17.519 --> 01:04:20.320
And I hope you'll be on again. Well, thank you

01:04:20.320 --> 01:04:23.139
for inviting me. Absolutely. All right. All right,

01:04:23.219 --> 01:04:25.119
everybody. Thanks for tuning in. We'll see you

01:04:25.119 --> 01:04:28.460
next time. Nature's Secret Service is written

01:04:28.460 --> 01:04:31.340
and produced by me, Ed Newcomer, and is co -produced

01:04:31.340 --> 01:04:34.880
by the DHTV team here at California State University

01:04:34.880 --> 01:04:37.440
Dominguez Hills. Follow us on social media and

01:04:37.440 --> 01:04:39.739
connect with us online at naturessecretservice

01:04:39.739 --> 01:04:40.320
.com