WEBVTT 00:00:02.140 --> 00:00:38.149 you Okay people, listen up. Here we go. This 00:00:38.149 --> 00:00:40.789 is Nature's Secret Service, the podcast that 00:00:40.789 --> 00:00:42.950 puts you in the room with the men and women of 00:00:42.950 --> 00:00:46.750 wildlife law enforcement. I'm your host, Ed Newcomer, 00:00:47.049 --> 00:00:49.009 and I was a special agent with the U .S. Fish 00:00:49.009 --> 00:00:51.390 and Wildlife Service for more than 20 years. 00:00:52.829 --> 00:00:56.250 In 2004, U .S. Fish and Wildlife Service Special 00:00:56.250 --> 00:00:59.149 Agent Scott Bregonier worked one of the most 00:00:59.149 --> 00:01:02.909 interesting wolf investigations I know of. I've 00:01:02.909 --> 00:01:05.730 always been intrigued by this case, and in awe 00:01:05.730 --> 00:01:08.510 of the fantastic investigative work Agent Bergonier 00:01:08.510 --> 00:01:12.150 did on the case. I invited Scott to be on the 00:01:12.150 --> 00:01:14.689 show to tell the story himself, but he declined. 00:01:15.450 --> 00:01:18.129 He's retired now, moved on with other interests, 00:01:18.510 --> 00:01:22.109 and doesn't publicly talk about his cases. However, 00:01:22.650 --> 00:01:26.269 I can't let this great story go untold. I always 00:01:26.269 --> 00:01:29.170 used it as a case study when doing public presentations 00:01:29.170 --> 00:01:32.530 while I was an agent, and I still use it as an 00:01:32.530 --> 00:01:34.969 excellent example of crime scene investigations 00:01:34.969 --> 00:01:38.209 when I teach forensic science at California State 00:01:38.209 --> 00:01:43.530 University. On August 13th, 2025, I was invited 00:01:43.530 --> 00:01:46.930 to appear on the Zone 7 podcast with Cheryl McCollum 00:01:46.930 --> 00:01:50.629 to discuss this very case. Cheryl and the team 00:01:50.629 --> 00:01:53.489 at Zone 7 have graciously given me permission 00:01:53.489 --> 00:01:57.010 to replay that episode as part of Season 3 of 00:01:57.010 --> 00:02:00.700 Nature's Secret Service. Yes, yes, I know that 00:02:00.700 --> 00:02:03.819 you sticklers for detail will notice that I misspoke 00:02:03.819 --> 00:02:07.620 when I say that in 1995 Wolves were reintroduced 00:02:07.620 --> 00:02:10.879 in Montana and Yellowstone when I meant to say 00:02:10.879 --> 00:02:14.099 Idaho and Yellowstone You know what I meant? 00:02:14.780 --> 00:02:18.840 Now here's Cheryl McCollum with her podcast Zone 00:02:18.840 --> 00:02:33.159 7 He's back. Ed Newcomer, a special agent with 00:02:33.159 --> 00:02:36.340 the US Fish and Wildlife Service. Y 'all know 00:02:36.340 --> 00:02:39.099 he's been over 20 years there. He's got his own 00:02:39.099 --> 00:02:43.300 podcast, Nature's Secret Service. Several of 00:02:43.300 --> 00:02:45.620 y 'all know about that. Y 'all have checked that 00:02:45.620 --> 00:02:50.819 out. It is, quite frankly, phenomenal. But we 00:02:50.819 --> 00:02:55.139 have brought him back because he has got a case 00:02:55.139 --> 00:02:59.139 that you are not going to believe. And what's 00:02:59.139 --> 00:03:02.939 important about this case to me, if you can work 00:03:02.939 --> 00:03:07.599 this case, you can work any homicide out there. 00:03:08.840 --> 00:03:12.319 So Ed Newcomer, thank you so much for coming 00:03:12.319 --> 00:03:16.000 back. Well, Mack, thanks for having me. I love 00:03:16.000 --> 00:03:18.219 your show and I love being on your show. It was 00:03:18.219 --> 00:03:21.060 such a great time last time. I had to accept. 00:03:21.639 --> 00:03:24.500 Are you kidding? And let me tell y 'all. Anybody 00:03:24.500 --> 00:03:26.680 coming to CrimeCon, you're going to be able to 00:03:26.680 --> 00:03:29.759 see him live and in person. We are going to be 00:03:29.759 --> 00:03:34.219 on the main stage for the Creators Row. We are 00:03:34.219 --> 00:03:38.879 going to be live at CrimeCon doing a Zone 7 in 00:03:38.879 --> 00:03:41.659 person. And Ed's going to be right there. And 00:03:41.659 --> 00:03:43.860 you will not believe the case we're going to 00:03:43.860 --> 00:03:47.639 cover there in person. And it's the first time 00:03:47.639 --> 00:03:52.580 wildlife crimes will be at CrimeCon. So come 00:03:52.580 --> 00:03:58.439 see us. All right, Ed, this case involves poison. 00:03:59.400 --> 00:04:02.439 And I got to tell you, those are difficult cases. 00:04:02.939 --> 00:04:08.900 And they're difficult to me because almost anybody 00:04:08.900 --> 00:04:14.020 can obtain poison. It's sublevel. It's not like 00:04:14.020 --> 00:04:16.740 a gunshot where people can hear it. It's not 00:04:16.740 --> 00:04:19.579 like arson where people can smell it. I mean, 00:04:19.579 --> 00:04:21.819 this is something that the killer, they don't 00:04:21.819 --> 00:04:25.060 even have to be there. When the death occurs, 00:04:25.720 --> 00:04:28.100 you know, you're absolutely right. I never really 00:04:28.100 --> 00:04:30.480 thought of it that way, but poison is a very 00:04:30.480 --> 00:04:34.319 sneaky weapon, right? It is so sneaky. I mean, 00:04:34.319 --> 00:04:38.120 you can be in another state. You can have a solid 00:04:38.120 --> 00:04:40.740 alibi. I was nowhere near there. You have time 00:04:40.740 --> 00:04:44.160 to get away. There won't be any eyewitness or 00:04:44.160 --> 00:04:46.839 ear witness and it wouldn't matter anyway. You're 00:04:46.839 --> 00:04:49.500 not there. Exactly. It's kind of the perfect 00:04:49.500 --> 00:04:52.579 weapon for a, for a criminal to use because You 00:04:52.579 --> 00:04:54.879 know, like you just said, they can actually take 00:04:54.879 --> 00:04:57.480 the time to put distance between themselves and 00:04:57.480 --> 00:04:59.860 the victim and the crime scene, which, you know, 00:04:59.860 --> 00:05:01.779 is pretty important if you're trying to evade 00:05:01.779 --> 00:05:07.120 capture. And unfortunately, Mack, poisoning is 00:05:07.120 --> 00:05:11.060 a pretty common method for people to commit wildlife 00:05:11.060 --> 00:05:14.100 crime, particularly if they're trying to kill 00:05:14.100 --> 00:05:17.500 wild animals for some reason. Well, that's what 00:05:17.500 --> 00:05:20.459 took y 'all to Idaho. So why don't you tell us 00:05:20.459 --> 00:05:25.350 about February? 2004, we're out there trying 00:05:25.350 --> 00:05:28.750 to reintroduce wolves. So we're trying to build 00:05:28.750 --> 00:05:31.610 this population back. Yeah, that's exactly right. 00:05:31.689 --> 00:05:34.069 And, you know, it might be really helpful to 00:05:34.069 --> 00:05:36.209 you and your listeners if we just kind of back 00:05:36.209 --> 00:05:38.110 up just a little bit. And I tell you a little 00:05:38.110 --> 00:05:41.470 bit about the situation with wolves in the Western 00:05:41.470 --> 00:05:44.009 United States, particularly around that time 00:05:44.009 --> 00:05:48.750 in 2004. Going, if we go way back, let's go back 00:05:48.750 --> 00:05:56.149 to 1926. That's the year we're going way back. 00:05:56.889 --> 00:05:59.069 That is hilarious. I thought you were going to 00:05:59.069 --> 00:06:03.209 say like, you know, 2001. No, we're going back 00:06:03.209 --> 00:06:08.189 y 'all. Way back, way back. Okay. Yeah. So let's 00:06:08.189 --> 00:06:11.350 go back to 1926 in Yellowstone national park. 00:06:11.550 --> 00:06:14.370 Remember Yellowstone was like the first national 00:06:14.370 --> 00:06:17.610 park in the world. Uh, it's often considered 00:06:17.610 --> 00:06:22.589 America's greatest idea. Um, the last wolf was 00:06:22.589 --> 00:06:25.829 killed in Yellowstone National Park in 1926. 00:06:25.829 --> 00:06:29.569 And that's what what's called extirpating a species, 00:06:29.589 --> 00:06:33.250 which means they're not necessarily extinct wherever 00:06:33.250 --> 00:06:36.649 around the world, but they no longer exist in 00:06:36.649 --> 00:06:40.449 the ecosystem where they used to. So pretty much 00:06:40.449 --> 00:06:44.220 by 1926, the United States had. Been well on 00:06:44.220 --> 00:06:47.160 its way to extirpating or killing all of the 00:06:47.160 --> 00:06:49.819 wolves that they could in the United States and 00:06:49.819 --> 00:06:52.519 by that time There's just a small pocket of wild 00:06:52.519 --> 00:06:55.079 wolves living in the Great Lakes area. They're 00:06:55.079 --> 00:07:00.639 gone basically from the Rocky Mountains now that 00:07:00.639 --> 00:07:04.399 Turned out to be kind of an environmental Disaster 00:07:04.399 --> 00:07:07.360 because it allowed elk and deer populations to 00:07:07.360 --> 00:07:10.360 explode which had all these cascading effects 00:07:10.360 --> 00:07:14.579 on the environment And as early as 1940s, people 00:07:14.579 --> 00:07:17.079 started to talk about maybe we should bring wolves 00:07:17.079 --> 00:07:21.660 back to fix kind of this imbalance. That didn't 00:07:21.660 --> 00:07:25.620 happen until 1995, when the U .S. Fish and Wildlife 00:07:25.620 --> 00:07:28.620 Service and the National Park Service finally 00:07:28.620 --> 00:07:31.720 decided we're going to bring wolves back to Yellowstone 00:07:31.720 --> 00:07:37.870 and certain parts of Montana. That effort really 00:07:37.870 --> 00:07:42.430 started in 1995 and a number of wolves were brought 00:07:42.430 --> 00:07:44.769 down from Canada. They were captured and they 00:07:44.769 --> 00:07:46.910 were released in the park and they started to 00:07:46.910 --> 00:07:50.589 do phenomenally well. A lot of deer, a lot of 00:07:50.589 --> 00:07:52.430 elk were there for them. They were specialists 00:07:52.430 --> 00:07:56.110 in killing deer and elk and it started to put 00:07:56.110 --> 00:08:00.050 the ecosystem back into balance. Unfortunately, 00:08:00.790 --> 00:08:04.230 well, fortunately for the wolves, but also unfortunately 00:08:04.230 --> 00:08:08.259 for the wolves. As they prospered, they moved. 00:08:08.360 --> 00:08:10.579 Their packs started to move outside the park 00:08:10.579 --> 00:08:14.660 and to populate their natural previous historical 00:08:14.660 --> 00:08:18.420 environment. And unfortunately, wolves get a 00:08:18.420 --> 00:08:22.560 bad rap and it's not warranted. It's not earned. 00:08:22.759 --> 00:08:27.660 And a lot of hunters and ranchers just hate them. 00:08:28.040 --> 00:08:31.519 And they try to some some of those guys are willing 00:08:31.519 --> 00:08:33.000 to break the law and they'll try to kill them 00:08:33.000 --> 00:08:36.919 at every opportunity. Because wolves had been 00:08:36.919 --> 00:08:39.240 extirpated when they were re -released they were 00:08:39.240 --> 00:08:42.539 automatically listed As threatened under the 00:08:42.539 --> 00:08:45.419 Endangered Species Act which gave them protection 00:08:45.419 --> 00:08:50.120 and as We know from my last appearance on the 00:08:50.120 --> 00:08:54.000 show Violations of the Endangered Species Act 00:08:54.000 --> 00:08:58.279 are a criminal violation and that law is enforced 00:08:58.279 --> 00:09:00.940 by special agents of the US Fish and Wildlife 00:09:00.940 --> 00:09:04.440 Service so There's a little history, Mac, but 00:09:04.440 --> 00:09:08.720 that kind of brings us up to this case that happened 00:09:08.720 --> 00:09:14.779 in February of 2004. It turned out to be an amazing, 00:09:14.860 --> 00:09:17.820 an amazing investigation done by a special agent 00:09:17.820 --> 00:09:20.100 with the U .S. Fish and Wildlife Service named 00:09:20.100 --> 00:09:23.139 Scott Bergonier. And the reason I know so much 00:09:23.139 --> 00:09:25.899 about this case is because when I heard about 00:09:25.899 --> 00:09:28.549 it. I was an agent in Los Angeles. I didn't do 00:09:28.549 --> 00:09:31.190 wolf cases. You know, we don't have wolves down 00:09:31.190 --> 00:09:34.570 there. But I was so fascinated by the high quality 00:09:34.570 --> 00:09:38.529 work that this agent and Idaho State Game Wardens 00:09:38.529 --> 00:09:42.169 did. It was an amazing crime scene investigation. 00:09:42.409 --> 00:09:45.070 It involved forensics. It involved great detective 00:09:45.070 --> 00:09:49.110 work. And ultimately, as I tell you this story, 00:09:49.169 --> 00:09:51.070 I think you're just going to be kind of blown 00:09:51.070 --> 00:09:57.059 away. You want me to just jump in now? I'm so 00:09:57.059 --> 00:09:59.740 sorry. I was so captivated. I'm sorry. I was 00:09:59.740 --> 00:10:04.299 listening, not talking. I didn't know if you 00:10:04.299 --> 00:10:06.919 wanted a chance to like pepper in questions there 00:10:06.919 --> 00:10:08.799 or just go for it. I was just sitting there on 00:10:08.799 --> 00:10:12.220 literally keep it in because that's honestly 00:10:12.220 --> 00:10:14.440 what was happening. I was sitting there so captivated 00:10:14.440 --> 00:10:17.279 like, Oh my Lord, what is going to happen? Even 00:10:17.279 --> 00:10:20.899 though I know the facts of the case. So let's 00:10:20.899 --> 00:10:23.419 just go right back in. Yes. I want you to just 00:10:23.419 --> 00:10:27.539 jump right in. Okay. So let me set the scene 00:10:27.539 --> 00:10:32.179 for you. It's now February 20th, 2004. We're 00:10:32.179 --> 00:10:35.200 almost 10 years into wolf reintroduction. They're 00:10:35.200 --> 00:10:38.299 doing great. They have expanded their territory. 00:10:38.799 --> 00:10:43.399 They've moved out into Idaho and there's an area 00:10:43.399 --> 00:10:47.179 in Idaho known as the wagon hammer drainage. 00:10:47.179 --> 00:10:50.259 And it's a popular place for people to go hiking 00:10:50.259 --> 00:10:53.580 and walk their dogs and things like that. So 00:10:53.580 --> 00:10:58.320 on February 20th, 2004, a local resident in Idaho 00:10:58.320 --> 00:11:03.279 is out walking her dog and the dog finds a meatball. 00:11:03.620 --> 00:11:06.460 We all know what a dog will do if it finds a 00:11:06.460 --> 00:11:08.720 meatball. It'll gulp it down before you can do 00:11:08.720 --> 00:11:12.240 anything about it. Yep. Yep. Well, that's what 00:11:12.240 --> 00:11:15.179 happened. And within a few minutes, the dog goes 00:11:15.179 --> 00:11:17.620 into convulsions, starts foaming at the mouth, 00:11:18.200 --> 00:11:22.399 drops over, um, you know, panic ensues and the 00:11:22.399 --> 00:11:25.259 woman rushes her dog to the veterinarian only 00:11:25.259 --> 00:11:31.820 to learn that the dog's been poisoned. So how 00:11:31.820 --> 00:11:33.860 now does the U .S. Fish and Wildlife Service 00:11:33.860 --> 00:11:37.039 agent get involved? Well, it turns out that the 00:11:37.039 --> 00:11:41.080 wagon hammer drainage, that area is known to 00:11:41.080 --> 00:11:44.159 be wolf habitat. There are wolves there and those 00:11:44.159 --> 00:11:46.340 wolves are protected by the Endangered Species 00:11:46.340 --> 00:11:50.399 Act. So through just people understanding that 00:11:50.669 --> 00:11:53.710 Wild animals are there, including wolves. This 00:11:53.710 --> 00:11:56.610 poisoning incident gets reported to the Idaho 00:11:56.610 --> 00:12:00.149 Wildlife Department, so Idaho Fish and Game. 00:12:00.789 --> 00:12:03.389 Because they know wolves are there, they notify 00:12:03.389 --> 00:12:06.269 the nearest special agent with US Fish and Wildlife 00:12:06.269 --> 00:12:09.950 Service, who is Scott Bergonier. And Agent Bergonier 00:12:09.950 --> 00:12:12.909 and a few game wardens go out to this wagon hammer 00:12:12.909 --> 00:12:16.129 drainage district, the hiking trail or drainage 00:12:16.129 --> 00:12:19.960 area. And suddenly they find themselves. Imagine 00:12:19.960 --> 00:12:23.559 this, Mac. You normally, if you're a law enforcement 00:12:23.559 --> 00:12:27.000 officer, you go into a crime scene. It's that 00:12:27.000 --> 00:12:29.940 crime scene might consist of a room or two rooms 00:12:29.940 --> 00:12:34.860 or a house, maybe a yard. But we're now we're 00:12:34.860 --> 00:12:39.019 talking about acres and acres of wild land that 00:12:39.019 --> 00:12:42.039 is potentially your crime scene. Ed, as soon 00:12:42.039 --> 00:12:45.240 as you said drainage, my heart sank because I 00:12:45.240 --> 00:12:48.639 thought, how much land are you talking about? 00:12:49.080 --> 00:12:51.159 Yeah. If you look at an aerial map of this, just 00:12:51.159 --> 00:12:53.759 imagine it's basically a valley with a river 00:12:53.759 --> 00:12:55.539 running through the middle of it or a creek. 00:12:56.120 --> 00:12:58.519 And at this time of year, February in Idaho, 00:12:58.519 --> 00:13:01.639 it's pretty snowy. It's cold and there's snow 00:13:01.639 --> 00:13:04.440 on the ground. So if you can imagine that you 00:13:04.440 --> 00:13:07.799 have now all these challenges with just a handful 00:13:07.799 --> 00:13:12.440 of law enforcement investigators. And all, you 00:13:12.440 --> 00:13:15.539 know, is a dog ate a meatball and the dog was 00:13:15.539 --> 00:13:18.980 poisoned. So, you know, pretty much, I think. 00:13:19.620 --> 00:13:21.240 If you and I were out there starting this, we'd 00:13:21.240 --> 00:13:22.799 be like, well, let's see if we can find some 00:13:22.799 --> 00:13:26.220 more meatballs, right? So that's exactly what 00:13:26.220 --> 00:13:29.080 happened. Um, agent Bergonya and the, and the 00:13:29.080 --> 00:13:31.600 state game wardens kind of spread out through 00:13:31.600 --> 00:13:35.159 this hiking trail, looking on either sides, looking 00:13:35.159 --> 00:13:39.860 for meatballs and. It doesn't take them long 00:13:39.860 --> 00:13:43.759 before they start to find kind of golf ball sized 00:13:43.759 --> 00:13:46.299 holes in the snow, kind of on either side of 00:13:46.299 --> 00:13:50.580 the trail left and right. And they reach down 00:13:50.580 --> 00:13:53.679 into these holes and sure enough, they start 00:13:53.679 --> 00:13:58.059 to find meatballs about the size of a standard 00:13:58.059 --> 00:14:03.779 spaghetti and meatball meal. And they obviously. 00:14:04.320 --> 00:14:06.440 think they're onto something. So they start to 00:14:06.440 --> 00:14:08.840 collect these meatballs and photograph them in 00:14:08.840 --> 00:14:13.279 place and pick them up. Now, they also know, 00:14:13.279 --> 00:14:17.240 of course, that this dog keeled over within minutes 00:14:17.240 --> 00:14:20.340 of consuming one of these. So there's some officer 00:14:20.340 --> 00:14:22.480 safety issues here, too. They've got to be gloved 00:14:22.480 --> 00:14:24.919 up. They don't. If there are poison meatballs 00:14:24.919 --> 00:14:26.460 out there, they don't want to touch this stuff. 00:14:27.419 --> 00:14:35.269 But in the end, they found 58. meatballs scattered 00:14:35.269 --> 00:14:40.129 throughout this drainage area. And each time 00:14:40.129 --> 00:14:42.889 they found a meatball, they kind of cracked it 00:14:42.889 --> 00:14:46.490 open. And inside, they found what looked like 00:14:46.490 --> 00:14:51.029 gray granulated powder, kind of like almost like 00:14:51.029 --> 00:14:55.789 a thick gunpowder. Now, most agents in the US 00:14:55.789 --> 00:14:57.929 Fish and Wildlife Service are very aware that 00:14:57.929 --> 00:15:00.389 people tend to use poison to kill predators. 00:15:00.940 --> 00:15:03.679 And one of the most common poisons out there 00:15:03.679 --> 00:15:08.019 to do that is called TEMEC or also known as aldecarb. 00:15:08.019 --> 00:15:11.120 And that is exactly what TEMEC and aldecarb look 00:15:11.120 --> 00:15:14.799 like. It looks like a gray kind of beaded powder. 00:15:16.320 --> 00:15:19.379 So good job on the crime scene, right? Unbelievable. 00:15:20.179 --> 00:15:23.940 And with the dog, that's plus one. So, you know, 00:15:23.940 --> 00:15:26.379 you're almost at 60 and you just have to imagine 00:15:26.379 --> 00:15:29.320 how many did they not find, how many had already 00:15:29.320 --> 00:15:33.490 been consumed. And on that note, another thing 00:15:33.490 --> 00:15:35.929 that they started to find while they're kind 00:15:35.929 --> 00:15:38.289 of combing this crime scene are dead animals. 00:15:39.169 --> 00:15:42.870 They found Magpies, which is a federally protected 00:15:42.870 --> 00:15:45.529 bird, looks like a crow, but it has a white wing. 00:15:46.269 --> 00:15:50.289 They've they found a red fox that were dead and 00:15:50.289 --> 00:15:53.590 coyotes. And so if you think about it, these 00:15:53.590 --> 00:15:56.350 are animals that are just. Innocent, they're 00:15:56.350 --> 00:15:57.830 not they're doing nothing, they're just doing 00:15:57.830 --> 00:16:01.039 their thing in the environment and within. minutes 00:16:01.039 --> 00:16:03.620 of consuming one of these meatballs, they're 00:16:03.620 --> 00:16:06.860 dead in place. So it's not like these animals 00:16:06.860 --> 00:16:09.600 ate a meatball and wandered off and died in seclusion 00:16:09.600 --> 00:16:12.820 somewhere. The agents and the investigators are 00:16:12.820 --> 00:16:16.759 finding multiple dead animals across the crime 00:16:16.759 --> 00:16:20.139 scene. The reality is you're going to have a 00:16:20.139 --> 00:16:22.820 bear come along and eat that magpie. You're going 00:16:22.820 --> 00:16:27.440 to have maybe other wolves come and try to get 00:16:27.440 --> 00:16:30.460 a carcass that's been... poisoned and then they're 00:16:30.460 --> 00:16:33.620 going to die too. A hundred percent. It's that 00:16:33.620 --> 00:16:36.460 secondary poisoning. It can go on and on and 00:16:36.460 --> 00:16:41.220 on in the environment. Um, killing eagles, uh, 00:16:41.259 --> 00:16:44.980 vultures, you know, small scavengers, big, big 00:16:44.980 --> 00:16:47.440 predators, all the animals indiscriminately. 00:16:47.860 --> 00:16:51.899 It's really an insidious, it's an insidious tool 00:16:51.899 --> 00:16:54.059 to use to try to kill an animal because there's 00:16:54.059 --> 00:16:59.460 a lot of things you're going to kill. And here's 00:16:59.460 --> 00:17:02.259 what you're really bringing to light for us. 00:17:02.860 --> 00:17:06.380 Most people would think poachers are single focused. 00:17:06.799 --> 00:17:09.019 I'm going to go get that one rhino. I'm going 00:17:09.019 --> 00:17:13.980 to go get that one bear. I don't know that people 00:17:13.980 --> 00:17:17.900 understand if the poachers are trying to get 00:17:17.900 --> 00:17:22.339 rid of something. If they use poison, not only 00:17:22.339 --> 00:17:25.000 are they going to maybe wipe out this whole wolf 00:17:25.000 --> 00:17:28.109 pack, but they're also going to get Maybe the 00:17:28.109 --> 00:17:31.710 animals that you do care about. Mm hmm. Exactly. 00:17:31.829 --> 00:17:35.210 And it's so indiscriminate and it's used, it's 00:17:35.210 --> 00:17:38.650 used around the world. Um, and you know, that's 00:17:38.650 --> 00:17:41.549 an interesting point you raise because there's 00:17:41.549 --> 00:17:43.789 different kinds of poachers out there, you know, 00:17:43.809 --> 00:17:47.589 like there are the guys who don't have a license 00:17:47.589 --> 00:17:50.029 to hunt deer, but they go hunt deer anyway. That's 00:17:50.029 --> 00:17:53.029 one kind. Then, as you mentioned, there are people 00:17:53.029 --> 00:17:56.180 out there killing animals for profit, like elephants 00:17:56.180 --> 00:18:00.160 for their ivory or rhinos for their horns. That's 00:18:00.160 --> 00:18:02.859 a totally different person because they're trying 00:18:02.859 --> 00:18:06.039 to commercially profit. Then there are these 00:18:06.039 --> 00:18:09.039 poachers who do things out of spite and anger 00:18:09.039 --> 00:18:12.400 and ignorance, honestly, you know, people who 00:18:12.400 --> 00:18:15.500 hate wolves because they think wolves are killing 00:18:15.500 --> 00:18:18.039 too many deer and elk or, or sometimes wolves 00:18:18.039 --> 00:18:21.140 do kill cattle and they're going to take it upon 00:18:21.140 --> 00:18:25.690 themselves to But go back in time a hundred years 00:18:25.690 --> 00:18:30.049 and make wolves go extinct. That's not their, 00:18:30.049 --> 00:18:33.470 you know, that's not their place in the world. 00:18:33.589 --> 00:18:36.970 The American people have been trying to reverse 00:18:36.970 --> 00:18:40.990 centuries of environmental and habitat destruction. 00:18:41.490 --> 00:18:44.490 They want wolves back in the Western United States. 00:18:44.789 --> 00:18:47.829 It's not up to some individual poacher to take 00:18:47.829 --> 00:18:50.950 it upon him or herself to start killing animals 00:18:50.950 --> 00:18:54.359 that are valued to the entire. American populace. 00:18:54.460 --> 00:18:57.819 You know, it's, it's frustrating, especially 00:18:57.819 --> 00:18:59.799 as a law enforcement officer, because you do 00:18:59.799 --> 00:19:02.660 see all of this, uh, you know, collateral kill 00:19:02.660 --> 00:19:05.539 and collateral impact that throwing poison out 00:19:05.539 --> 00:19:08.980 in the environment causes. It's depressing. Especially 00:19:08.980 --> 00:19:11.920 in a drainage way, because again, you're already 00:19:11.920 --> 00:19:16.059 talking about one domestic animal that was almost 00:19:16.059 --> 00:19:20.259 killed, but it gets in that water system. I mean, 00:19:20.259 --> 00:19:22.980 that's like a bullet. It doesn't have anybody's 00:19:22.980 --> 00:19:25.220 name on it. It's just out there to hurt some. 00:19:26.119 --> 00:19:28.400 Exactly. And with this poison in particular, 00:19:28.619 --> 00:19:32.480 TEMEC, as I said, each meatball was kind of filled 00:19:32.480 --> 00:19:37.940 with these granules. If you accidentally breathed 00:19:37.940 --> 00:19:42.680 in just one or two of these particles or it absorbed 00:19:42.680 --> 00:19:45.579 through your skin, you could become extremely 00:19:45.579 --> 00:19:49.720 sick and possibly die just from a few particles 00:19:49.720 --> 00:19:52.779 of this getting into your uh, you know, ingesting 00:19:52.779 --> 00:19:55.920 it or breathing it in or having it. So it works 00:19:55.920 --> 00:19:58.799 like fentanyl. It's, it's bad. It's not quite 00:19:58.799 --> 00:20:01.200 as quick as fentanyl, but it will kill you and 00:20:01.200 --> 00:20:03.220 it will make you real sick, even small amounts 00:20:03.220 --> 00:20:05.660 of it. So it's, it's a very dangerous poison. 00:20:06.279 --> 00:20:08.900 Um, we, you know, fish and wildlife, special 00:20:08.900 --> 00:20:11.500 agents receive a lot of training on how to deal 00:20:11.500 --> 00:20:14.539 with poisons that they encounter in crime scenes 00:20:14.539 --> 00:20:20.389 like this. And we take it real seriously. So 00:20:20.389 --> 00:20:22.430 there's another thing that they found during 00:20:22.430 --> 00:20:25.089 their crime scene investigation that was very 00:20:25.089 --> 00:20:27.589 interesting, especially from a forensics point 00:20:27.589 --> 00:20:33.109 of view. They found boot prints and what tied 00:20:33.109 --> 00:20:36.890 these boot prints to the meatballs was that in 00:20:36.890 --> 00:20:40.450 some instances they would find the hole where 00:20:40.450 --> 00:20:43.450 the meatball had gone into the snow. And directly 00:20:43.450 --> 00:20:45.309 on top of it, there would be one of these boot 00:20:45.309 --> 00:20:47.490 prints as if someone had stepped on it to push 00:20:47.490 --> 00:20:50.769 the meatball down into the snow. Hey, that's 00:20:50.769 --> 00:20:53.509 really good investigative work. That's a that's 00:20:53.509 --> 00:20:57.009 a great way to articulate what you saw. That 00:20:57.009 --> 00:21:01.009 explains it to a jury. Exactly. And it explains 00:21:01.009 --> 00:21:03.869 why these footprints were zero. You know, obviously, 00:21:03.950 --> 00:21:05.910 there's hikers there. There's other boot prints. 00:21:06.109 --> 00:21:09.269 But these prints seem to be very closely related 00:21:09.269 --> 00:21:11.230 to the meatballs. But I mean, what are the odds 00:21:11.230 --> 00:21:14.559 a hiker is going to step on every meatball. You 00:21:14.559 --> 00:21:16.539 know what I mean? So I'm just saying that's really 00:21:16.539 --> 00:21:19.200 good. Cause a lot of times that's hard to train 00:21:19.200 --> 00:21:22.079 people. They may realize what they're seeing, 00:21:22.200 --> 00:21:25.079 but they don't always write it down. So if somebody 00:21:25.079 --> 00:21:27.099 took the time to say, Hey, on every single one 00:21:27.099 --> 00:21:30.099 of these meatballs, we saw this same boot print 00:21:30.099 --> 00:21:32.220 that looked like it was shoving it down into 00:21:32.220 --> 00:21:36.339 the snow. Well, that makes sense. Exactly. Exactly. 00:21:36.779 --> 00:21:40.359 And as you know, footprints, tire prints can 00:21:40.359 --> 00:21:44.599 be very important because if later you find a 00:21:44.599 --> 00:21:48.880 boot, it gives you something to compare to the 00:21:48.880 --> 00:21:51.720 print that you saw out in the field. So very 00:21:51.720 --> 00:21:55.839 smartly, Agent Bergogne took very good photographs 00:21:55.839 --> 00:21:59.240 at right angles of these footprints because it 00:21:59.240 --> 00:22:02.400 was snow, of course. He couldn't pour plaster 00:22:02.400 --> 00:22:04.319 Paris in there because it would destroy the print. 00:22:05.110 --> 00:22:08.029 Um, but he did record the, uh, the footprints. 00:22:08.869 --> 00:22:12.029 Um, and that became very important later because 00:22:12.029 --> 00:22:14.549 one of the things that really stands out, if 00:22:14.549 --> 00:22:16.970 you look at a photograph of one of these, um, 00:22:17.089 --> 00:22:21.029 boot prints, if you know, if you kind of work 00:22:21.029 --> 00:22:23.390 in the world of wildlife and you know, hunters, 00:22:24.130 --> 00:22:27.349 this boot print is actually immediately recognizable 00:22:27.349 --> 00:22:30.869 to you as coming from a boot made by a company 00:22:30.869 --> 00:22:35.279 named called Danner. in Oregon. And this particular 00:22:35.279 --> 00:22:39.200 sole was primarily made for a boot sold by the 00:22:39.200 --> 00:22:42.539 Cabela's Outfitting Company. So you might, you 00:22:42.539 --> 00:22:45.460 know, know Cabela's and Bass Pro Shops as an 00:22:45.460 --> 00:22:48.660 outdoor supply company. And they exclusively 00:22:48.660 --> 00:22:51.279 sold this boot made by Danner that had this very 00:22:51.279 --> 00:22:55.579 unique tread design, which almost, it almost 00:22:55.579 --> 00:22:59.720 looks like instead of the classic chunky boot 00:22:59.720 --> 00:23:02.559 print. It looks like it has points on it, almost 00:23:02.559 --> 00:23:06.960 like cleats, um, little round indentations, uh, 00:23:07.079 --> 00:23:09.920 make up the footprint. So it's kind of a very 00:23:09.920 --> 00:23:11.480 rec. There's a lot of those boots out there, 00:23:11.480 --> 00:23:14.559 but it's a very recognizable hunting boot, uh, 00:23:14.559 --> 00:23:17.440 that anybody who's familiar with Dan or boots 00:23:17.440 --> 00:23:20.039 would know that this is, this is that type of 00:23:20.039 --> 00:23:23.539 boot. There was one other thing they found at 00:23:23.539 --> 00:23:25.980 the crime scene, which turned out to be sort 00:23:25.980 --> 00:23:29.859 of a a joke among everyone. And that is there 00:23:29.859 --> 00:23:32.059 was a place in the snow where there were two 00:23:32.059 --> 00:23:34.180 of these boot prints right next to each other, 00:23:34.240 --> 00:23:37.299 as if the person was standing still. And in front 00:23:37.299 --> 00:23:40.779 of the toes of the boot prints was some yellow 00:23:40.779 --> 00:23:49.259 snow. And most of the senior investigators there 00:23:49.259 --> 00:23:51.940 were like, Oh yeah, well somebody took a leak 00:23:51.940 --> 00:23:57.750 and that's that. But a very knew straight out 00:23:57.750 --> 00:24:00.589 of the Academy game warden for the Idaho department 00:24:00.589 --> 00:24:05.170 of fishing game, eagerly collected that, that 00:24:05.170 --> 00:24:07.690 yellow snow. Oh yeah. He scooped it up and put 00:24:07.690 --> 00:24:10.329 it in a bag and preserved it. And everybody kind 00:24:10.329 --> 00:24:12.950 of teased him because they're like, what are 00:24:12.950 --> 00:24:14.950 you going to get out of a urine that you can't 00:24:14.950 --> 00:24:17.710 find DNA in a person's urine? So everybody kind 00:24:17.710 --> 00:24:20.690 of teased him and, and kind of, it became a joke, 00:24:20.789 --> 00:24:23.170 but nonetheless, this yellow snow got itself 00:24:23.170 --> 00:24:26.599 booked into evidence. I love it. Okay. As you 00:24:26.599 --> 00:24:28.819 know, the yellow snow will come back later in 00:24:28.819 --> 00:24:33.279 this story. So the last thing before the investigators 00:24:33.279 --> 00:24:35.859 walked off of this crime scene, they found something 00:24:35.859 --> 00:24:40.779 very, very sobering. And that was on top of one 00:24:40.779 --> 00:24:43.440 of these boot prints, meaning something came 00:24:43.440 --> 00:24:47.339 through the crime scene after the. The poison 00:24:47.339 --> 00:24:51.319 poacher was a wolf print right on top of one 00:24:51.319 --> 00:24:54.339 of these boot prints was. Huge wolf print, and 00:24:54.339 --> 00:24:56.599 they are unmistakable. Wolf print is about the 00:24:56.599 --> 00:24:59.839 size of your hand. They're big. And so what it 00:24:59.839 --> 00:25:04.019 meant to Agent Bregognar was that after these 00:25:04.019 --> 00:25:07.039 meatballs had been placed, at least one wolf 00:25:07.039 --> 00:25:10.279 had passed through the area. Now, no dead wolf 00:25:10.279 --> 00:25:14.640 was found, but it's a little scary to think that 00:25:14.640 --> 00:25:18.039 the very species you're trying to protect did 00:25:18.039 --> 00:25:20.880 in fact go through this crime scene after These 00:25:20.880 --> 00:25:24.599 poison 58, at least poison meatballs had been 00:25:24.599 --> 00:25:27.380 placed in the environment. Pretty, pretty sobering 00:25:27.380 --> 00:25:31.880 way to start this investigation. And now has 00:25:31.880 --> 00:25:35.980 facing all, uh, you know, investigators you're 00:25:35.980 --> 00:25:37.519 done with your crime scene. You've collected 00:25:37.519 --> 00:25:40.680 58 meatballs. You've taken pictures of boot prints. 00:25:40.799 --> 00:25:43.059 You've collected other dead animals as you know, 00:25:43.200 --> 00:25:46.000 collateral kill. You've got your yellow snow. 00:25:46.420 --> 00:25:51.180 Now what? Right. Right. So what? You know, what 00:25:51.180 --> 00:25:55.779 do you do? Well, interestingly, the U .S. Fish 00:25:55.779 --> 00:25:59.480 and Wildlife Service has its own dedicated criminal 00:25:59.480 --> 00:26:03.960 forensics lab. It's called the Clark Babin Forensics 00:26:03.960 --> 00:26:06.500 Lab, and it's located in Ashland, Oregon. And 00:26:06.500 --> 00:26:09.900 their sole purpose is to support law enforcement 00:26:09.900 --> 00:26:14.039 investigations involving wildlife crime. So, 00:26:14.039 --> 00:26:17.980 of course, Agent Bregonier sent the meatballs 00:26:17.980 --> 00:26:21.829 to the lab. For two things one is tell me what 00:26:21.829 --> 00:26:26.970 this meat is and two What's this? powdered granular 00:26:26.970 --> 00:26:29.009 material inside the meatballs he already knew 00:26:29.009 --> 00:26:33.910 but he needed scientific forensic evidence and 00:26:33.910 --> 00:26:36.950 Sure enough the lab results come back indicating 00:26:36.950 --> 00:26:41.930 that the granular powder was Aldecarb also known 00:26:41.930 --> 00:26:46.099 as Temick and that the meat I was characteristic 00:26:46.099 --> 00:26:48.660 of the same tissue that would come from a North 00:26:48.660 --> 00:26:52.640 American elk. Okay. So that's great information. 00:26:52.819 --> 00:26:55.319 We know for sure now we got poison and we know 00:26:55.319 --> 00:26:57.500 this is elk meat. And that tells you something 00:26:57.500 --> 00:27:00.400 about your suspect. You bet. And it gives you 00:27:00.400 --> 00:27:03.440 something potentially to compare later. So out 00:27:03.440 --> 00:27:04.839 of that meat, of course, you're going to get 00:27:04.839 --> 00:27:07.759 the individual DNA from that particular elk. 00:27:08.259 --> 00:27:10.759 And that of course gives you something to compare. 00:27:11.610 --> 00:27:14.650 later, hoping that your investigation goes somewhere. 00:27:15.549 --> 00:27:18.930 But now we're really in this situation where, 00:27:19.289 --> 00:27:21.329 how does agent Burgundy develop a suspect? How 00:27:21.329 --> 00:27:24.549 do we figure out who this was? There's no surveillance 00:27:24.549 --> 00:27:27.589 cameras at a hiking trail. There's no witnesses. 00:27:27.769 --> 00:27:29.950 Nobody saw anybody hiking around there throwing 00:27:29.950 --> 00:27:32.890 something, you know, it's a pretty remote area. 00:27:34.609 --> 00:27:38.230 And what happens next is, you know, an investigator 00:27:38.230 --> 00:27:41.240 could basically go back to the office and sit 00:27:41.240 --> 00:27:44.160 and twiddle their thumbs and hope somebody calls 00:27:44.160 --> 00:27:47.480 in the tip, or they could really get proactive. 00:27:48.900 --> 00:27:51.380 And agent Bregonier was never the kind of guy 00:27:51.380 --> 00:27:54.859 when he was working to sit back and twiddle his 00:27:54.859 --> 00:27:58.640 thumbs. He was a very proactive agent and he 00:27:58.640 --> 00:28:01.799 was very well dialed in with the other law enforcement 00:28:01.799 --> 00:28:07.019 agencies in that area of Idaho. So, you know, 00:28:07.119 --> 00:28:10.839 he knew the federal. Forest service law enforcement. 00:28:11.039 --> 00:28:12.859 He knew the local police. He knew the tribal 00:28:12.859 --> 00:28:16.539 police. He knew everybody. And he basically put 00:28:16.539 --> 00:28:19.900 the word out, Hey, I'm got this case. There's 00:28:19.900 --> 00:28:22.140 found some poison meatballs. It's in a Wolf area. 00:28:22.299 --> 00:28:23.779 I'm trying to figure out who might've put these 00:28:23.779 --> 00:28:27.940 here. Anybody have any ideas? I mean, really 00:28:27.940 --> 00:28:31.680 that's what it came down to. And don't you know, 00:28:31.859 --> 00:28:35.980 uh, it triggered someone's memory and it turned 00:28:35.980 --> 00:28:40.829 out that Uh, the Nez Perce tribe, which is a, 00:28:40.829 --> 00:28:44.329 is a native American tribe in that area employs, 00:28:44.329 --> 00:28:47.430 you know, their own staff to work on wildlife 00:28:47.430 --> 00:28:51.769 issues. And they had a biologist who remembered 00:28:51.769 --> 00:28:57.470 having an encounter. Get this back in 1998 with 00:28:57.470 --> 00:29:01.930 an individual known as Tim Sundles. And, uh, 00:29:01.930 --> 00:29:04.950 the, the encounter was so memorable for this 00:29:04.950 --> 00:29:08.890 biologist or so unusual. that the biologist ended 00:29:08.890 --> 00:29:13.130 up writing a memo about it. And the memo basically 00:29:13.130 --> 00:29:15.890 detailed how the biologist was out in the field 00:29:15.890 --> 00:29:18.490 and was approached by this guy named Tim Sundals, 00:29:18.930 --> 00:29:23.349 who just started railing about how he wanted 00:29:23.349 --> 00:29:28.390 to kill wolves during that conversation. Sundals 00:29:28.390 --> 00:29:30.730 mentioned to the biologist, and this is a quote 00:29:30.730 --> 00:29:34.529 straight from the biologists memo. He said, quote, 00:29:34.720 --> 00:29:37.019 Do you think it would work if we dropped a couple 00:29:37.019 --> 00:29:39.839 of elk up there and packed them full of poison? 00:29:40.539 --> 00:29:43.700 Now, is this our suspect? Well, we don't know, 00:29:43.720 --> 00:29:46.240 but he talks about elk and he talks about poison. 00:29:46.680 --> 00:29:50.099 So Ragonier is better off than he was before 00:29:50.099 --> 00:29:52.619 he talked to this biologist. Even though this 00:29:52.619 --> 00:29:56.640 was 1998, that's pretty close. Yeah, I mean, 00:29:56.660 --> 00:30:00.759 it's six years, but it's it's something right. 00:30:00.960 --> 00:30:03.619 And when you're an investigator, as you know, 00:30:03.740 --> 00:30:06.759 Mac. When you're at a loss, you start pulling 00:30:06.759 --> 00:30:10.559 at threads and you see whether or not those threads 00:30:10.559 --> 00:30:13.339 start to unravel. Well, here's the other thing, 00:30:13.579 --> 00:30:18.000 Ed. If this guy is radical, those types of folks 00:30:18.000 --> 00:30:21.539 write things down. That's how we have manifestos. 00:30:21.539 --> 00:30:23.759 That's how we have all these things posted on 00:30:23.759 --> 00:30:27.559 social media. They can't stop themselves. Exactly. 00:30:27.839 --> 00:30:30.319 And they're proud of what they're doing. They 00:30:30.319 --> 00:30:34.079 think they're right. Yeah. Exactly. And one of 00:30:34.079 --> 00:30:36.980 the other scary things that this individual said 00:30:36.980 --> 00:30:39.019 to the biologist, and this is another quote, 00:30:39.619 --> 00:30:41.900 he said to the biologist, he said, if I see a 00:30:41.900 --> 00:30:44.799 wolf, I'm going to kill it. And any fed who comes 00:30:44.799 --> 00:30:46.839 and tries to stop me is going to get a bullet 00:30:46.839 --> 00:30:51.839 in their back. Now that is a scary person. He 00:30:51.839 --> 00:30:55.559 goes to the number one slot for me. Yeah. Yeah. 00:30:55.559 --> 00:30:59.839 I mean, for sure. Wouldn't as, as agent Burgon 00:30:59.839 --> 00:31:02.390 your thought. Well, hey, this is something I'm 00:31:02.390 --> 00:31:04.450 going to I'm going to start looking into this 00:31:04.450 --> 00:31:07.910 person. So he starts to kind of just do some 00:31:07.910 --> 00:31:12.349 basic investigations and he finds out that this 00:31:12.349 --> 00:31:15.730 Tim Sundals guy was previously invested by investigated 00:31:15.730 --> 00:31:18.369 by the US Fish and Wildlife Service for killing 00:31:18.369 --> 00:31:22.170 a wolf. But interestingly, under the Endangered 00:31:22.170 --> 00:31:26.210 Species Act, one of the legitimate reasons you 00:31:26.210 --> 00:31:28.769 can kill an endangered species is if it's in 00:31:28.769 --> 00:31:33.720 self -defense. Now, wolves do not have a history 00:31:33.720 --> 00:31:36.200 of attacking human beings, but it's possible 00:31:36.200 --> 00:31:39.700 their average wolf weighs between 100 and 130 00:31:39.700 --> 00:31:43.140 pounds. And yeah, if they wanted to, they could 00:31:43.140 --> 00:31:48.519 hurt you. So it turns out back in 2001, Tim Sundals 00:31:48.519 --> 00:31:51.680 actually shot and killed a collared wolf. But 00:31:51.680 --> 00:31:53.720 when it was investigated by a different Fish 00:31:53.720 --> 00:31:56.480 and Wildlife Service special agent at the time, 00:31:57.599 --> 00:32:00.430 Sundals Claimed that he killed the wolf in self 00:32:00.430 --> 00:32:02.849 -defense and there was just no way to prove otherwise 00:32:02.849 --> 00:32:09.289 so there wasn't a case and but he now Has a history 00:32:09.289 --> 00:32:12.410 of talking about elk meat and poison and actually 00:32:12.410 --> 00:32:16.069 has killed wolves and has talked about it. So 00:32:16.069 --> 00:32:19.970 He's looking more and more like an interesting 00:32:19.970 --> 00:32:26.789 Suspect and that leads to a search of the internet 00:32:27.289 --> 00:32:31.849 where, as you said, so many, so many suspects 00:32:31.849 --> 00:32:35.549 will write things down. And one of the things 00:32:35.549 --> 00:32:40.289 that Tim Sundles had going was a chat room and 00:32:40.289 --> 00:32:43.509 a bulletin board and a blog. And he loved to 00:32:43.509 --> 00:32:46.650 post about his hatred of the federal government 00:32:46.650 --> 00:32:51.549 and his hatred of wolves. And agent Bergogne 00:32:51.549 --> 00:32:56.210 started to sift through his very, you know, many 00:32:56.210 --> 00:32:59.970 posts on the Internet. And he saw a lot of specific 00:32:59.970 --> 00:33:03.609 hostile language about U .S. Fish and Wildlife 00:33:03.609 --> 00:33:06.930 Service special agents, basically, you know, 00:33:07.170 --> 00:33:09.509 denigrating us as not being very experienced 00:33:09.509 --> 00:33:12.210 outdoorsmen and trying to trick people and the 00:33:12.210 --> 00:33:15.869 usual. But one of the things that Agent Bergonia 00:33:15.869 --> 00:33:19.349 came across was this very interesting passage 00:33:19.349 --> 00:33:22.650 in a blog that Sandals had posted on the Internet. 00:33:22.869 --> 00:33:26.440 And get this. Wait till I read this to you. This 00:33:26.440 --> 00:33:29.960 is a direct quote off of that blog It's a recipe 00:33:29.960 --> 00:33:34.119 for how to make poison meatballs and newcomer 00:33:34.119 --> 00:33:39.579 I'm not kidding. He basically Lists out how you 00:33:39.579 --> 00:33:42.960 do it and it includes from his own words adding 00:33:42.960 --> 00:33:46.359 a pinch or two of Temic To the center of the 00:33:46.359 --> 00:33:49.519 beat ball patty and roll it into a ball. It should 00:33:49.519 --> 00:33:52.140 be about the size of a golf ball We're a little 00:33:52.140 --> 00:33:54.619 larger so a wolf can swallow it whole without 00:33:54.619 --> 00:34:01.019 chewing it. Here's what's blowing my mind. First 00:34:01.019 --> 00:34:05.299 of all, great job, agent. Second of all, you 00:34:05.299 --> 00:34:08.159 don't use chicken. You don't use hamburger. You 00:34:08.159 --> 00:34:11.360 don't use noodles. I mean, you say meatball. 00:34:11.880 --> 00:34:14.420 Yeah, meatball. And he even suggests you can 00:34:14.420 --> 00:34:17.000 make the meatball out of beef, elk, or pork. 00:34:17.150 --> 00:34:20.849 So he's, he's even listed elk as a possible source. 00:34:20.989 --> 00:34:23.889 That's a money tree. That's a money tree. And 00:34:23.889 --> 00:34:27.409 it gets even slightly better. He even says place 00:34:27.409 --> 00:34:30.730 between 30 and 40 of these meatballs out in the 00:34:30.730 --> 00:34:35.510 environment. And that is almost exactly the situation 00:34:35.510 --> 00:34:38.989 that occurred. Now, does this mean that Tim Sundles 00:34:38.989 --> 00:34:42.469 is the guy who put the meatballs out there? No, 00:34:42.590 --> 00:34:46.510 but he's obviously put this. a lot of thought 00:34:46.510 --> 00:34:49.010 into this. He's put it out there on the Internet. 00:34:49.409 --> 00:34:51.289 Unfortunately, anybody else could have read it 00:34:51.289 --> 00:34:54.829 and used his modus operandi to do this and followed 00:34:54.829 --> 00:34:58.690 his instructions. But it's still right now. He's 00:34:58.690 --> 00:35:05.130 Agent Burgonier's best and only suspect. So ultimately. 00:35:06.489 --> 00:35:09.170 There's a little more goes on, there's some surveillance 00:35:09.170 --> 00:35:12.690 done of Sundles. He's got a car that has some 00:35:12.690 --> 00:35:15.559 really hostile bumper stickers on it about. wolves 00:35:15.559 --> 00:35:18.900 and feds, but ultimately all the surveillance 00:35:18.900 --> 00:35:23.420 and all the internet searches lead to enough 00:35:23.420 --> 00:35:26.460 probable cause to obtain a search warrant for 00:35:26.460 --> 00:35:30.960 Tim Sandals house. And this is where. This is 00:35:30.960 --> 00:35:33.199 the kind of thing an investigator lives for. 00:35:33.800 --> 00:35:36.900 You have developed enough probable cause to convince 00:35:36.900 --> 00:35:39.880 a judge that you should be able to go into someone's 00:35:39.880 --> 00:35:43.130 home or their car or whatever and search. And 00:35:43.130 --> 00:35:45.250 that search warrants always is very specific. 00:35:45.250 --> 00:35:48.789 As you know, it's, you're only looking to find 00:35:48.789 --> 00:35:52.730 evidence of the crimes you're investigating and 00:35:52.730 --> 00:35:56.210 you, you execute those warrants with your fingers 00:35:56.210 --> 00:35:58.929 crossed, hoping what are you going to find? You 00:35:58.929 --> 00:36:01.210 know, am I going to find something that ties 00:36:01.210 --> 00:36:04.489 my suspect to that crime scene? And funny enough, 00:36:04.489 --> 00:36:07.630 as I think about this case and I used to talk 00:36:07.630 --> 00:36:09.750 about it when I would do presentations about 00:36:09.750 --> 00:36:12.639 it while I was an agent myself. I always remembered 00:36:12.639 --> 00:36:14.679 something and you're going to know this to your 00:36:14.679 --> 00:36:19.079 low cards principle, right? Absolutely. Yeah. 00:36:19.360 --> 00:36:21.820 Kind of like if your listeners don't know what 00:36:21.820 --> 00:36:24.320 it is, low cards principles, kind of like the 00:36:24.320 --> 00:36:28.760 basic fundamental aspect of forensics. And it's 00:36:28.760 --> 00:36:31.679 true. If, if you work enough things, you will 00:36:31.679 --> 00:36:35.059 know it's true. It is. Yes, it is true. And it 00:36:35.059 --> 00:36:38.039 is amazing how many times you're out there and 00:36:38.039 --> 00:36:40.179 you're just like, wow, this is low cards principle. 00:36:40.239 --> 00:36:43.329 And the The principle, of course, is that if 00:36:43.329 --> 00:36:45.469 any two items come in contact with each other, 00:36:45.489 --> 00:36:47.869 they will leave traces of themselves on the other. 00:36:48.489 --> 00:36:53.369 And that's why it's so, you know, critical to 00:36:53.369 --> 00:36:55.170 crime scene investigations, because ultimately 00:36:55.170 --> 00:36:58.570 your goal, right, Cheryl, is to you're going 00:36:58.570 --> 00:37:01.829 to tie the suspect to the crime scene and the 00:37:01.829 --> 00:37:05.309 victim at the same time, you know, or the evidence 00:37:05.309 --> 00:37:07.929 at the scene. And that's what this search warrant 00:37:07.929 --> 00:37:10.449 is hopefully going to do. for Agent Bergonia 00:37:10.449 --> 00:37:15.150 and his team. So a month, a month after the poisoning 00:37:15.150 --> 00:37:19.230 occurs, March 20th, 2004, they serve a warrant 00:37:19.230 --> 00:37:23.070 on Tim Sundell's house. And the warrant includes 00:37:23.070 --> 00:37:25.530 the property around his house, such as the garage 00:37:25.530 --> 00:37:28.969 and workshops. And don't you know, they go in 00:37:28.969 --> 00:37:31.789 the front door. And what do you think they find 00:37:31.789 --> 00:37:34.889 immediately inside the front door? A pair of 00:37:34.889 --> 00:37:39.110 Danner hunting boots with those round nubby So 00:37:39.110 --> 00:37:46.010 shut your mouth. Yeah, that is absolutely beautiful. 00:37:46.429 --> 00:37:49.690 It gets better. One of the things that agent 00:37:49.690 --> 00:37:51.730 Burgundy had noticed at the crime scene when 00:37:51.730 --> 00:37:54.070 he took the photographs was that it appeared. 00:37:55.130 --> 00:37:57.630 And these, these round treads I'm talking about, 00:37:57.630 --> 00:37:59.769 the only way I can describe them is nubs. They 00:37:59.769 --> 00:38:01.610 look like, like I said, they look like a cleat 00:38:01.610 --> 00:38:04.429 or a nub. And what he noticed from the print 00:38:04.429 --> 00:38:08.610 in the snow was it appeared as if. The nubs weren't 00:38:08.610 --> 00:38:11.710 symmetrical from left to right. And in his mind, 00:38:11.710 --> 00:38:14.489 what that meant was one of these nubs had come 00:38:14.489 --> 00:38:17.610 off, had been, you know, cut off or scraped off 00:38:17.610 --> 00:38:20.510 or, you know, just in the process of hiking around. 00:38:21.190 --> 00:38:24.789 So he turns the boots over and what do you know? 00:38:25.250 --> 00:38:28.570 One of these boots is missing a nub. So not only 00:38:28.570 --> 00:38:31.389 do you have a boot print that matches the boot 00:38:31.389 --> 00:38:34.090 print at the scene in terms of size and tread 00:38:34.090 --> 00:38:38.070 pattern, but you've got. individual characteristic, 00:38:38.349 --> 00:38:43.650 which is pretty good evidence. That is pretty 00:38:43.650 --> 00:38:47.590 good all day. But of course, you know, we're 00:38:47.590 --> 00:38:50.329 always looking to determine whether or not does 00:38:50.329 --> 00:38:53.630 our suspect have a ability here to create reasonable 00:38:53.630 --> 00:38:56.670 doubt. So do we know that those are Tim's boots? 00:38:56.809 --> 00:38:58.789 Do we know that Tim was wearing those boots at 00:38:58.789 --> 00:39:02.190 the time? You know, these are questions. It's, 00:39:02.190 --> 00:39:05.690 it's great evidence, but Can we put Tim in those 00:39:05.690 --> 00:39:09.469 boots on the day of the poisoning? So the search 00:39:09.469 --> 00:39:12.530 of the house continues. One of the things, of 00:39:12.530 --> 00:39:14.610 course, that they included in their warrant was 00:39:14.610 --> 00:39:17.550 because Sundles had been posting on the Internet, 00:39:17.610 --> 00:39:20.969 they grabbed his computer. The other thing they 00:39:20.969 --> 00:39:24.050 searched was his garage and his workshop. And 00:39:24.050 --> 00:39:27.269 as soon as they opened the doors, they saw hunting 00:39:27.269 --> 00:39:31.150 equipment, including saddlebags that had blood 00:39:31.150 --> 00:39:36.530 stains on them, a bone saw. and a small bottle, 00:39:37.070 --> 00:39:40.570 white bottle, precariously balancing on the top 00:39:40.570 --> 00:39:45.230 of a metal trash can. And when they opened that 00:39:45.230 --> 00:39:49.070 white bottle, the first thing they saw were small, 00:39:49.250 --> 00:39:53.590 gray, granulated powders. This is an unbelievable 00:39:53.590 --> 00:39:56.610 search. Unbelievable search. The bottle was in 00:39:56.610 --> 00:40:01.719 basically a calcium... supplement bottle. So 00:40:01.719 --> 00:40:03.960 it was used for, you know, the vitamins were 00:40:03.960 --> 00:40:06.800 taken out and Sundals had put Temick in this 00:40:06.800 --> 00:40:09.880 bottle. And it, it, the lab later confirmed that 00:40:09.880 --> 00:40:12.699 the powder inside that bottle was also aldecarb 00:40:12.699 --> 00:40:17.340 or Temick. So now we've got the boots in Sundal's 00:40:17.340 --> 00:40:19.880 house tied to the crime scene. We've got Temick 00:40:19.880 --> 00:40:23.599 at his house and at the crime scene. Next, we 00:40:23.599 --> 00:40:25.719 need to figure out, do we, can we tie the elk 00:40:25.719 --> 00:40:28.670 meat? And the first thing Agent Bergogne did 00:40:28.670 --> 00:40:31.730 was he zeroed in on these saddlebags that had 00:40:31.730 --> 00:40:35.010 blood stains on them. And he immediately collected 00:40:35.010 --> 00:40:39.050 those as evidence and they were sent to the forensics 00:40:39.050 --> 00:40:42.590 lab. Now, before I tell you what the forensic 00:40:42.590 --> 00:40:45.690 lab results were, let me say that another thing 00:40:45.690 --> 00:40:49.630 they found inside his house was a box full of 00:40:49.630 --> 00:40:52.610 bumper stickers that talked about, you know, 00:40:52.750 --> 00:40:56.960 save a ranch or kill a wolf. I've done lots of 00:40:56.960 --> 00:40:59.380 anti -wolf things, but among those bumper stickers 00:40:59.380 --> 00:41:02.940 was one that said, save the U S constitution, 00:41:03.119 --> 00:41:07.300 eliminate a fed. Now, when you're a federal agent 00:41:07.300 --> 00:41:09.860 or a federal employee in general, trying to serve 00:41:09.860 --> 00:41:13.400 your community and work in an environment where 00:41:13.400 --> 00:41:17.039 people have bumper stickers, basically, you know, 00:41:17.760 --> 00:41:20.519 calling for you to be eliminated. What, what 00:41:20.519 --> 00:41:23.059 does that mean exactly? That's a scary environment 00:41:23.059 --> 00:41:25.809 to try to be a public servant, right? And I'll 00:41:25.809 --> 00:41:27.630 tell you that also goes back to what he said 00:41:27.630 --> 00:41:30.650 to the biologist. So you're showing a pattern 00:41:30.650 --> 00:41:34.329 conclusively that he has not only believed this 00:41:34.329 --> 00:41:39.570 for years, he's elevated what he's doing. Yes. 00:41:39.789 --> 00:41:43.510 Yes. And he's, he's intentionally, he's, he's 00:41:43.510 --> 00:41:46.369 everything about him just says he's intentionally 00:41:46.369 --> 00:41:48.789 violating the law. And can I ask you a question? 00:41:49.750 --> 00:41:52.989 Um, he doesn't seem like the type of man that 00:41:52.989 --> 00:41:56.219 would have a roommate. So again, I think putting 00:41:56.219 --> 00:41:59.199 him in them boots is going to be pretty easy. 00:42:00.099 --> 00:42:05.639 Yeah, I agree. I agree. It's excellent. I mean, 00:42:05.639 --> 00:42:08.980 it's almost irrefutable evidence, right? They're 00:42:08.980 --> 00:42:12.920 well -worn in boots. Who else is going to be 00:42:12.920 --> 00:42:14.679 wearing those boots in his family? He's the hunter 00:42:14.679 --> 00:42:18.460 of the family. Yeah. In the imperfection, plus 00:42:18.460 --> 00:42:21.079 his recipe, plus he said he was going to do it. 00:42:21.719 --> 00:42:27.769 Yes, exactly. Uh, so the couple of things happen 00:42:27.769 --> 00:42:30.489 next. They seized computers. So now there's going 00:42:30.489 --> 00:42:33.150 to be a forensic examination of computers and 00:42:33.150 --> 00:42:36.449 emails, traffic and, and whatever's posted there. 00:42:37.170 --> 00:42:42.130 Um, also the blood and they also found in the, 00:42:42.130 --> 00:42:45.429 in the, in the shed, they found a bone saw. So 00:42:45.429 --> 00:42:48.070 the bone saw and the saddlebags and the TEMEC 00:42:48.070 --> 00:42:51.269 all go to the FWS forensics lab in Ashland, Oregon. 00:42:51.949 --> 00:42:54.809 So let's talk about a little bit what they found 00:42:54.809 --> 00:42:58.070 as a result of the forensic analysis of the computers 00:42:58.070 --> 00:43:00.889 first, and then we'll talk about what they found 00:43:00.889 --> 00:43:05.150 at the lab. One of the things they found in doing 00:43:05.150 --> 00:43:07.210 a search warrant on the computers was a whole 00:43:07.210 --> 00:43:11.670 lot of stored emails. And in those emails, he's 00:43:11.670 --> 00:43:14.130 writing to different people and talking about 00:43:14.130 --> 00:43:16.389 very specifically about how to poison wolves. 00:43:16.920 --> 00:43:19.940 Um, I give you an example in one email he sent 00:43:19.940 --> 00:43:23.280 in 2003, you know, he talks about poisoning is 00:43:23.280 --> 00:43:25.179 much more effective than shooting, especially 00:43:25.179 --> 00:43:27.260 in winter when the wolves are confined to their 00:43:27.260 --> 00:43:31.699 winter grounds. Uh, and, um, the best play way 00:43:31.699 --> 00:43:34.119 to do it is to put a frozen meatball made out 00:43:34.119 --> 00:43:38.119 of elk because of the last all winter long. Um, 00:43:38.579 --> 00:43:41.760 yeah, it's just one, one thing after another, 00:43:41.760 --> 00:43:46.460 right now. At the Fish and Wildlife Forensics 00:43:46.460 --> 00:43:49.420 Lab in Ashland, they start to take scrapings 00:43:49.420 --> 00:43:53.139 off of these blood stains on these saddlebags. 00:43:53.420 --> 00:43:55.980 And of course, they already have the meatballs 00:43:55.980 --> 00:43:58.760 that were collected at the crime scene, so they 00:43:58.760 --> 00:44:01.420 can do a DNA comparison between the blood in 00:44:01.420 --> 00:44:05.260 the saddlebags and the meatballs. And don't you 00:44:05.260 --> 00:44:07.880 know, not only is the blood in the saddlebags 00:44:07.880 --> 00:44:12.139 elk meat, but it came from the same elk that 00:44:12.139 --> 00:44:14.880 those meatballs were made out of. You have got 00:44:14.880 --> 00:44:17.199 to be kidding me. I know it gets better and better. 00:44:17.320 --> 00:44:21.000 Every turn in this case just got better and better. 00:44:21.380 --> 00:44:24.400 And some of it's luck. And some of it is just 00:44:24.400 --> 00:44:27.619 downright tenacity by, you know, Agent Bagonier. 00:44:28.619 --> 00:44:30.539 And, you know, with all the support from the 00:44:30.539 --> 00:44:32.940 lab personnel and the state investigators and 00:44:32.940 --> 00:44:35.400 all of that. Well, that lab is amazing. But I'm 00:44:35.400 --> 00:44:39.460 going to tell you, Agent Bagonier, you handled 00:44:39.460 --> 00:44:43.639 this thing. Good night. I mean, cause it's one 00:44:43.639 --> 00:44:46.500 thing, you know, like I've collected things that 00:44:46.500 --> 00:44:49.340 people have made fun of me for. And I always 00:44:49.340 --> 00:44:53.380 say, well, I don't know how it fits yet, but 00:44:53.380 --> 00:44:56.260 I may later. I just know something didn't look 00:44:56.260 --> 00:44:58.460 right. It didn't belong there to me. So I took 00:44:58.460 --> 00:45:01.420 it, whatever. But frozen yellow snow, come on, 00:45:01.480 --> 00:45:05.579 they're going to make fun of you. Just yellow 00:45:05.579 --> 00:45:08.300 snow period in your report is hilarious. I mean, 00:45:08.300 --> 00:45:10.980 you have to write that, but look what came from 00:45:10.980 --> 00:45:14.429 it. Yeah. Yeah. And we haven't even, you know, 00:45:14.429 --> 00:45:17.949 I mean, as of now, we've locked down that the 00:45:17.949 --> 00:45:21.530 elk meets connected to the house, uh, and the 00:45:21.530 --> 00:45:24.090 boots are connected to the crime scene. And this 00:45:24.090 --> 00:45:27.010 is a dangerous person. And I want people to understand. 00:45:27.389 --> 00:45:31.469 I say it all the time. Anybody that can kick 00:45:31.469 --> 00:45:35.710 a dog, kill a kitten. And I am not talking about 00:45:35.710 --> 00:45:38.510 legal hunting. I'm not talking about legal hunting, 00:45:38.750 --> 00:45:42.809 fishing. I'm talking about somebody. out of meanness, 00:45:42.989 --> 00:45:46.769 out of a direct target, is going to kill animals. 00:45:47.550 --> 00:45:52.010 That person absolutely, without a doubt, can 00:45:52.010 --> 00:45:56.389 kill a human. And this man said it over and over 00:45:56.389 --> 00:45:59.130 and over. You bet. And this is different than 00:45:59.130 --> 00:46:01.989 hunting. This is not hunting. It's not. Right. 00:46:02.469 --> 00:46:06.849 This is not hunting. An interesting aside to 00:46:06.849 --> 00:46:08.690 this is that the U .S. Department of Justice 00:46:08.690 --> 00:46:11.929 keeps statistics on assaults on law enforcement 00:46:11.929 --> 00:46:18.630 officers. And consistently, every year, the law 00:46:18.630 --> 00:46:21.130 enforcement profession that has the highest number 00:46:21.130 --> 00:46:24.409 of physical assaults on them are conservation 00:46:24.409 --> 00:46:27.909 officers, game wardens, wildlife officers, special 00:46:27.909 --> 00:46:31.010 agents. I did not know that. Yeah, it's a very 00:46:31.010 --> 00:46:33.489 dangerous... profession because a lot of the 00:46:33.489 --> 00:46:36.489 criminals you're dealing with are armed. And, 00:46:36.750 --> 00:46:38.989 um, you can't, you know, if you're approaching 00:46:38.989 --> 00:46:41.150 a hunter to do an enforcement action, of course 00:46:41.150 --> 00:46:42.750 they're going to have a gun. They always have 00:46:42.750 --> 00:46:48.170 a gun. You know, I did a training, um, with native 00:46:48.170 --> 00:46:51.170 American Rangers, and that's one of the things 00:46:51.170 --> 00:46:55.030 they told me. They said first they are by themselves 00:46:55.030 --> 00:46:57.960 for thousands and thousands of acres. I mean, 00:46:58.079 --> 00:47:02.539 their backup is a long way away. That's the first 00:47:02.539 --> 00:47:05.239 thing that they made me very aware of is that 00:47:05.239 --> 00:47:08.539 every single person they come in contact with 00:47:08.539 --> 00:47:12.340 has a gun. Everyone. Yes. I mean, kind of famously, 00:47:12.340 --> 00:47:15.099 uh, maybe 10 years ago, there was a U S fish 00:47:15.099 --> 00:47:18.800 and wildlife service refuge officer who was involved 00:47:18.800 --> 00:47:21.719 in a shooting in the desert. National Wildlife 00:47:21.719 --> 00:47:24.440 Refuge outside of Las Vegas. And this is a guy 00:47:24.440 --> 00:47:27.639 who was on his own patrolling millions of acres. 00:47:27.840 --> 00:47:32.239 And it, it was kind of where, you know, we were 00:47:32.239 --> 00:47:34.900 all reminded that we listened to the radio traffic 00:47:34.900 --> 00:47:37.000 after the shooting incident where he's requesting 00:47:37.000 --> 00:47:39.960 backup. It took an hour. It took an hour for 00:47:39.960 --> 00:47:42.019 the nearest law enforcement officer to reach 00:47:42.019 --> 00:47:46.440 his location on a shooting call. Yep. That's 00:47:46.440 --> 00:47:49.340 unbelievable. I mean, I knew the danger. I didn't 00:47:49.340 --> 00:47:54.579 know. that that group was the number one assaulter. 00:47:57.599 --> 00:48:00.960 The good news is, based on what Agent Bergonier 00:48:00.960 --> 00:48:03.179 was able to obtain from the crime scene and the 00:48:03.179 --> 00:48:05.940 search warrant, it actually was enough for the 00:48:05.940 --> 00:48:08.139 United States Attorney's Office to file charges 00:48:08.139 --> 00:48:12.179 against Sundals. Now, interestingly, the charges 00:48:12.179 --> 00:48:15.280 were not for killing a wolf because no wolf body 00:48:15.280 --> 00:48:20.070 was found. But attempt to do it was carries the 00:48:20.070 --> 00:48:23.369 same penalty. So believe it or not, this is actually 00:48:23.369 --> 00:48:25.789 the first case in the history of the U .S. Fish 00:48:25.789 --> 00:48:27.670 and Wildlife Service where a person was actually 00:48:27.670 --> 00:48:30.829 charged with attempting to kill a threatened 00:48:30.829 --> 00:48:33.230 or endangered species. So it's kind of a case 00:48:33.230 --> 00:48:35.510 of first impression, but definitely was enough 00:48:35.510 --> 00:48:38.849 evidence to file those charges. Brilliant. Well, 00:48:38.849 --> 00:48:41.610 I hope he got 60 charges, because each one should 00:48:41.610 --> 00:48:44.829 have served as a charge. Hey, exactly. 58 counts, 00:48:44.829 --> 00:48:48.210 right, of throwing those meatballs. So he... 00:48:48.269 --> 00:48:51.050 Pleads not guilty and immediately goes on the 00:48:51.050 --> 00:48:54.510 media offensive about, you know, of course, the 00:48:54.510 --> 00:48:58.530 out of control federal agency. And he said some 00:48:58.530 --> 00:49:00.550 things that didn't help him. For example, he 00:49:00.550 --> 00:49:03.909 said poisoning of pets is simply collateral damage, 00:49:04.070 --> 00:49:05.989 which doesn't make you very popular with the 00:49:05.989 --> 00:49:09.389 public. Right now, what we have is we have evidence 00:49:09.389 --> 00:49:12.349 that, you know, boots in his possession match 00:49:12.349 --> 00:49:15.139 the prints at the scene of the suspect. We got 00:49:15.139 --> 00:49:17.380 the same type of poison found in the suspect's 00:49:17.380 --> 00:49:21.579 garage. We got meat from the same elk from the 00:49:21.579 --> 00:49:24.159 crime scene that he smashes the blood in his 00:49:24.159 --> 00:49:26.179 garage. And we know, of course, that he's a jerk. 00:49:27.199 --> 00:49:34.039 But then there's one more thing that Bregonia 00:49:34.039 --> 00:49:38.480 thinks about, and that is that as he's considering, 00:49:38.719 --> 00:49:40.900 what do we how do we get ready for trial? He's 00:49:40.900 --> 00:49:43.380 looking at the evidence that's booked into, you 00:49:43.380 --> 00:49:46.210 know, in the evidence and he Finds this frozen 00:49:46.210 --> 00:49:51.489 yellow snow and he says what what is could this 00:49:51.489 --> 00:49:55.110 be important? Why is this important and You know, 00:49:56.050 --> 00:49:57.909 I think Mac, you know, I've talked about this 00:49:57.909 --> 00:50:02.429 You know why there is one time when a person's 00:50:02.429 --> 00:50:05.469 DNA will show up in their urine it's when they're 00:50:05.469 --> 00:50:08.190 sick and if you have a cold or you're getting 00:50:08.190 --> 00:50:11.090 over cold your body will shed cells and it ends 00:50:11.090 --> 00:50:14.269 up in your urine and it's Oh, please tell me 00:50:14.269 --> 00:50:19.650 he was sick. Please tell me. So, in going through 00:50:19.650 --> 00:50:23.349 all of his emails from the search warrant, Bregonier 00:50:23.349 --> 00:50:26.369 remembered that the week before the meatballs 00:50:26.369 --> 00:50:29.250 had been thrown out there, Tim Sundles had been 00:50:29.250 --> 00:50:31.489 complaining to his friends about having had the 00:50:31.489 --> 00:50:39.650 flu. Oh my word. Yeah. So now we've got a suspect 00:50:39.650 --> 00:50:42.269 who's pleading. Not guilty. He wants to go to 00:50:42.269 --> 00:50:44.949 trial. He's, he's gone on the public, you know, 00:50:45.030 --> 00:50:49.090 public media offensive against government. But 00:50:49.090 --> 00:50:52.269 Bregonia goes in front of a, of a judge in the 00:50:52.269 --> 00:50:56.489 U S district court and says, I want an order 00:50:56.489 --> 00:50:59.349 authorizing me to take a DNA sample from Tim 00:50:59.349 --> 00:51:04.329 Sundles and the judge grants it. So the judge 00:51:04.329 --> 00:51:06.989 has now ordered Tim Sundle to turn over a DNA 00:51:06.989 --> 00:51:09.329 sample. So it can be compared against the DNA 00:51:09.329 --> 00:51:12.320 that's found in the urine. And don't you know 00:51:12.320 --> 00:51:14.960 that immediately causes him to plead guilty? 00:51:15.460 --> 00:51:19.599 That is a beautiful thing. That is outstanding. 00:51:20.320 --> 00:51:22.699 And you know, you can get DNA from urine, but 00:51:22.699 --> 00:51:26.019 you know, it's, it's not as easy as people think. 00:51:26.519 --> 00:51:28.280 I mean, first of all, it's got to be fresh and 00:51:28.280 --> 00:51:29.980 all that. And then you've got to keep it at a 00:51:29.980 --> 00:51:33.460 low temperature. So how fortunate that it was 00:51:33.460 --> 00:51:37.179 frozen. I mean, everything just worked out beautifully, 00:51:37.179 --> 00:51:39.739 but I'm going to say something now. It worked 00:51:39.739 --> 00:51:42.880 out beautifully because of a lot of hard work. 00:51:43.400 --> 00:51:48.199 I mean, when you're talking about, I mean, just 00:51:48.199 --> 00:51:52.099 hundreds and hundreds of acres and those meatballs 00:51:52.099 --> 00:51:55.880 could have been anywhere for him to find one 00:51:55.880 --> 00:51:58.079 after the other after the other and then keep 00:51:58.079 --> 00:52:04.000 searching. I mean, Agent Bregonier saved possibly 00:52:04.000 --> 00:52:08.480 hundreds of animals. Yeah. I mean, he basically... 00:52:08.519 --> 00:52:11.380 He delivered consequences to somebody who desperately 00:52:11.380 --> 00:52:14.739 needed consequences. Yes, for the safety of animals 00:52:14.739 --> 00:52:19.320 and humans. Yeah, 100%. And it kind of sent a 00:52:19.320 --> 00:52:21.780 message to anyone else who's thinking about this, 00:52:22.320 --> 00:52:24.400 that and this is something I always told people, 00:52:24.579 --> 00:52:26.820 you know, US Fish and Wildlife Service agents 00:52:26.820 --> 00:52:31.480 are among the most tenacious federal investigators 00:52:31.480 --> 00:52:34.539 I've ever seen in my life. And they, you know, 00:52:34.539 --> 00:52:37.829 if you commit a wildlife crime, a US Fish and 00:52:37.829 --> 00:52:41.170 Wildlife Service agent, they will pursue you, 00:52:41.329 --> 00:52:43.469 they will catch you, and they will put you in 00:52:43.469 --> 00:52:46.550 jail. It's just, it's not a matter of if, it's 00:52:46.550 --> 00:52:52.329 a matter of when. And that's exactly what happened 00:52:52.329 --> 00:52:55.210 here. And I think one of the best outcomes from 00:52:55.210 --> 00:52:57.429 this case, unfortunately, the Endangered Species 00:52:57.429 --> 00:53:01.090 Act carries fairly low penalties. So it's not 00:53:01.090 --> 00:53:03.130 like we can say Tim Sundals went to jail for 00:53:03.130 --> 00:53:06.389 a long time, but some interesting things occurred 00:53:06.389 --> 00:53:09.349 in his sentence that were, I think, very painful 00:53:09.349 --> 00:53:12.510 for him. One of the one is that he was prohibited 00:53:12.510 --> 00:53:17.590 from entering federal property for the entire 00:53:17.590 --> 00:53:20.630 term of his probation, which was two years. And 00:53:20.630 --> 00:53:24.349 if you live in Idaho, a lot of Idaho is federal 00:53:24.349 --> 00:53:27.090 property, either US Forest Service land or BLM 00:53:27.090 --> 00:53:30.469 land. So it kind of is an impingement on your 00:53:30.469 --> 00:53:33.050 lifestyle. It was two miles. He could go in good. 00:53:33.050 --> 00:53:36.920 Exactly. But my favorite part was the Washington 00:53:36.920 --> 00:53:41.059 Post every year. They post a idiot of the year. 00:53:41.780 --> 00:53:44.300 And there's it's a number of people that make 00:53:44.300 --> 00:53:47.840 the list. But Tim Sondles was the 21st idiot 00:53:47.840 --> 00:53:51.500 of the year for that year. And I'll just read 00:53:51.500 --> 00:53:53.380 you real quick what the Washington Post said. 00:53:53.519 --> 00:53:56.460 It said, Tim Sondles, Tim Sondles, who's unabashed 00:53:56.460 --> 00:53:59.460 hatred of U .S. government efforts to reintroduce 00:53:59.460 --> 00:54:04.880 gray wolves out west borders on fanatical. In 00:54:04.880 --> 00:54:06.820 his latest scheme to finish off the endangered 00:54:06.820 --> 00:54:09.219 species, he planted poison -laced meatballs in 00:54:09.219 --> 00:54:11.980 Idaho's remote salmon shadeless national forest. 00:54:12.599 --> 00:54:14.519 Instead of killing wolves though, the meatballs 00:54:14.519 --> 00:54:16.619 ended up poisoning a coyote, a fox, some birds 00:54:16.619 --> 00:54:23.719 and three pet dogs. So public shaming is a valuable 00:54:23.719 --> 00:54:27.159 tool because whether or not you go to jail or 00:54:27.159 --> 00:54:29.539 whether or not you pay a lot of fines, having 00:54:29.539 --> 00:54:32.179 all your neighbors know what you did. and how 00:54:32.179 --> 00:54:34.280 you did it and that the government caught you 00:54:34.280 --> 00:54:37.940 and you're guilty as sin is a valuable deterrent. 00:54:38.719 --> 00:54:41.039 Amen. It makes it that much harder for him to 00:54:41.039 --> 00:54:44.480 ever do it again because he's going to be usual 00:54:44.480 --> 00:54:47.159 suspects. He's always going to be on your list. 00:54:47.500 --> 00:54:49.900 Exactly. A hundred percent. And, you know, I 00:54:49.900 --> 00:54:52.199 mentioned that the Endangered Species Act has, 00:54:52.199 --> 00:54:56.179 you know, not great penalties necessarily, but 00:54:56.179 --> 00:54:58.219 where people really start to get into trouble 00:54:58.219 --> 00:55:00.739 and go to jail is when they commit subsequent 00:55:00.739 --> 00:55:04.769 offenses. So if he turns up again and committing 00:55:04.769 --> 00:55:07.550 a wildlife crime, a state or a federal judge 00:55:07.550 --> 00:55:11.010 is going to look at his record and say, well, 00:55:11.010 --> 00:55:13.130 this is a prior violator who didn't learn his 00:55:13.130 --> 00:55:15.789 lesson before. I'm going to send him to jail. 00:55:16.389 --> 00:55:19.789 So I've seen that before where subsequent, uh, 00:55:19.789 --> 00:55:22.130 violators end up actually doing some pretty good 00:55:22.130 --> 00:55:24.389 time because they, they demonstrated that they 00:55:24.389 --> 00:55:25.929 didn't learn a lesson. So that's always hanging 00:55:25.929 --> 00:55:28.929 over his head. And I cannot thank you enough. 00:55:28.949 --> 00:55:32.829 And I'm just going to, again, Y 'all, if you 00:55:32.829 --> 00:55:35.469 can work this case, you can work any case out 00:55:35.469 --> 00:55:39.210 there. This was, I mean, you can call some of 00:55:39.210 --> 00:55:43.110 it luck, but that's not what I see. I see literally 00:55:43.110 --> 00:55:46.349 boots in the snow, working this thing to the 00:55:46.349 --> 00:55:49.269 very end, collecting things you don't even know 00:55:49.269 --> 00:55:51.750 what it's going to result in. You're just going 00:55:51.750 --> 00:55:55.530 to have it and see what comes from it. That's 00:55:55.530 --> 00:56:01.789 just unbelievably solid investigative work. 100%. 00:56:01.789 --> 00:56:04.389 All right, Ed, I will see you in Denver at Crown 00:56:04.389 --> 00:56:07.070 Con. Looking forward to it. I can't wait. Well, 00:56:07.070 --> 00:56:08.889 y 'all, I'm going to end Zone 7 the way that 00:56:08.889 --> 00:56:12.510 I always do, with a quote. It all starts with 00:56:12.510 --> 00:56:17.309 the wolves. Peter Woollenbeer, the hidden life 00:56:17.309 --> 00:56:21.489 of trees. I'm Cheryl McCollum, and this is Zone 00:56:21.489 --> 00:56:32.789 7. Nature's Secret Service is written and produced 00:56:32.789 --> 00:56:35.469 by me, Ed Newcomer, and is co -produced by the 00:56:35.469 --> 00:56:38.670 DHTV team here at California State University 00:56:38.670 --> 00:56:41.250 Dominguez Hills. Follow us on social media and 00:56:41.250 --> 00:56:43.550 connect with us online at naturessecretservice 00:56:43.550 --> 00:56:44.170 .com.