WEBVTT 00:00:00.140 --> 00:00:02.540 If you want to learn more about the topics of 00:00:02.540 --> 00:00:06.219 today's episode, visit the podcast website at 00:00:06.219 --> 00:00:09.300 naturessecretservice .com. Thanks for listening. 00:00:42.419 --> 00:00:46.000 Okay people, listen up. Here we go. This is Nature's 00:00:46.000 --> 00:00:47.880 Secret Service, the podcast that puts you in 00:00:47.880 --> 00:00:49.979 the room with the men and women of wildlife law 00:00:49.979 --> 00:00:52.700 enforcement. I'm your host, Ed Newcomer. And 00:00:52.700 --> 00:00:55.600 last week, we talked with Mike Phillips, former 00:00:55.600 --> 00:00:58.679 head of Wolf Reintroduction in the Greater Yellowstone 00:00:58.679 --> 00:01:01.640 Area. We broke that conversation into two parts. 00:01:01.840 --> 00:01:04.439 this week we'll be rejoining that conversation 00:01:04.439 --> 00:01:07.099 with Mike to talk about everything from red wolves 00:01:07.099 --> 00:01:10.200 to Mexican gray wolves to the recent reintroduction 00:01:10.200 --> 00:01:13.299 of wolves in Colorado. Let's rejoin that conversation 00:01:13.299 --> 00:01:16.920 now. Welcome back Mike. Thank you for being on 00:01:16.920 --> 00:01:19.959 two episodes of my podcast We talked last time 00:01:19.959 --> 00:01:22.640 about your experience with reintroducing wolves 00:01:22.640 --> 00:01:24.939 to Yellowstone But your reintroduction experience 00:01:24.939 --> 00:01:27.980 really goes back to the red wolves of the southeastern 00:01:27.980 --> 00:01:30.959 us Which I think is a lot of people who are interested 00:01:30.959 --> 00:01:32.859 in wolves aren't very familiar with red wolves 00:01:32.859 --> 00:01:35.780 Can you talk about red wolves and their biology 00:01:35.780 --> 00:01:37.980 compared a little bit to the to the gray wolves? 00:01:38.019 --> 00:01:40.340 And and how did that reintroduction effort come 00:01:40.340 --> 00:01:43.939 about and how did you get involved in that? Yeah, 00:01:43.980 --> 00:01:47.159 you bet it. Thank you red wolves Technically 00:01:47.159 --> 00:01:50.079 are known as canis rufus. Mm -hmm gray wolves. 00:01:50.140 --> 00:01:53.840 Technically are known as canis lupus, right there 00:01:53.840 --> 00:01:56.780 variations on this theme of a big canid running 00:01:56.780 --> 00:01:59.319 around the woods and being very very social and 00:01:59.319 --> 00:02:01.560 living on things bigger than itself you want 00:02:01.560 --> 00:02:03.819 to know a simple differentiation between wolves 00:02:03.819 --> 00:02:06.680 and coyotes on Average wolves are hardwired to 00:02:06.680 --> 00:02:08.599 live on things bigger than themselves. It doesn't 00:02:08.599 --> 00:02:10.500 mean that a wolf on occasion won't kill a rabbit 00:02:10.960 --> 00:02:13.199 But they are living on things bigger than themselves, 00:02:13.280 --> 00:02:16.099 deer and elk, for example. In contrast, coyotes 00:02:16.099 --> 00:02:18.599 typically are hardwired to live on things smaller 00:02:18.599 --> 00:02:20.280 than themselves. Doesn't mean that a coyote won't 00:02:20.280 --> 00:02:22.699 kill a deer on occasion. It does mean that their 00:02:22.699 --> 00:02:24.439 food habits drift in the direction of things 00:02:24.439 --> 00:02:27.460 that are smaller. Red wolves were the wolf of 00:02:27.460 --> 00:02:29.500 the southeastern United States. They go way back 00:02:29.500 --> 00:02:32.740 in time. They are simply the wolf of the southeast. 00:02:33.419 --> 00:02:35.560 They're a little bit smaller. A male red wolf 00:02:35.560 --> 00:02:37.699 ought to weigh 60 to 70 pounds. Females got to 00:02:37.699 --> 00:02:41.669 weigh 50 to 60. And their genetic makeup is very, 00:02:41.669 --> 00:02:44.490 very similar to gray wolves. They are social. 00:02:44.789 --> 00:02:47.069 But in the southeast, you could expect pack size 00:02:47.069 --> 00:02:49.870 to be probably four or five or six. And when 00:02:49.870 --> 00:02:51.830 you push into the gray wolf country, northern 00:02:51.830 --> 00:02:54.150 Minnesota and beyond, you're looking at pack 00:02:54.150 --> 00:02:55.830 size that's going to be six, seven, eight or 00:02:55.830 --> 00:03:00.090 more. So red wolves are the wolf of the southeast. 00:03:01.110 --> 00:03:04.270 Otherwise, very, very similar in terms of the 00:03:04.270 --> 00:03:06.949 ecology. They make extensive use of white tilled 00:03:06.949 --> 00:03:09.530 deer. They make extensive use of of raccoons 00:03:09.530 --> 00:03:13.729 and rabbits. They were reintroduced to the Alligator 00:03:13.729 --> 00:03:15.770 River National Wildlife Refuge back in the mid 00:03:15.770 --> 00:03:18.830 1980s. I was blessed to run that project as all 00:03:18.830 --> 00:03:21.469 part of a recovery program. The program said 00:03:21.469 --> 00:03:24.349 we need some red wolves in captivity to ensure 00:03:24.349 --> 00:03:26.349 the persistence of the species. The red wolf 00:03:26.349 --> 00:03:29.650 was declared extinct in the wild I want to say 00:03:29.650 --> 00:03:33.840 in the early 1980s. And before the extinction 00:03:33.840 --> 00:03:37.219 was claimed, some friends of mine went out and 00:03:37.219 --> 00:03:39.560 captured the last few free -ranging red wolves 00:03:39.560 --> 00:03:42.039 in Texas and Louisiana, and they established 00:03:42.039 --> 00:03:44.800 a captive breeding program. And so we have these 00:03:44.800 --> 00:03:46.620 good red wolves in captivity that need to be 00:03:46.620 --> 00:03:48.939 released to the wild. The Endangered Species 00:03:48.939 --> 00:03:52.060 Act is all about establishing wild populations. 00:03:52.419 --> 00:03:55.159 Animals in captivity can be a great assist, but 00:03:55.159 --> 00:03:57.560 the benchmark of success for the Endangered Species 00:03:57.560 --> 00:04:00.259 Act is free -ranging animals that can be fairly 00:04:00.259 --> 00:04:04.979 considered wild. I was going to say, funny, fun 00:04:04.979 --> 00:04:07.379 connection between me and Red Wolves here is 00:04:07.379 --> 00:04:09.419 that I didn't know anything about Red Wolves 00:04:09.419 --> 00:04:12.159 until I was in law school, actually. I went to 00:04:12.159 --> 00:04:14.460 law school in Tacoma, Washington, and there's 00:04:14.460 --> 00:04:17.639 a zoo there called the Point Defiant Zoo. When 00:04:17.639 --> 00:04:19.600 I didn't want to study, I would go out to the 00:04:19.600 --> 00:04:23.709 Point Defiant Zoo and I would walk around. You 00:04:23.709 --> 00:04:26.170 know, interested to know and find out that they 00:04:26.170 --> 00:04:28.610 were part of the Red Wolf breeding program. They 00:04:28.610 --> 00:04:30.769 had Red Wolves there. Ed, they were more than 00:04:30.769 --> 00:04:33.589 part. Point Defiance is where the Red Wolf captive 00:04:33.589 --> 00:04:35.629 breeding program started. No kidding. They had 00:04:35.629 --> 00:04:38.790 been the anchor and are due a world of credit 00:04:38.790 --> 00:04:42.850 for that work. Isn't that neat? The releases 00:04:42.850 --> 00:04:45.129 in Northeastern North Carolina centered on the 00:04:45.129 --> 00:04:47.529 Alligator River National Wildlife Refuge were 00:04:47.529 --> 00:04:50.430 all about establishing a population in the wild 00:04:50.430 --> 00:04:54.860 that would count toward federal recovery. Hold 00:04:54.860 --> 00:04:57.779 that thought. Also, can I back you up a little 00:04:57.779 --> 00:05:00.399 bit? What was the historic range of the red wolf? 00:05:01.060 --> 00:05:04.360 It drifted into south central Texas and then 00:05:04.360 --> 00:05:07.019 all the way across to Florida and it pushed up 00:05:07.019 --> 00:05:09.519 to Pennsylvania and drifted as far west as Idaho. 00:05:09.860 --> 00:05:12.980 Imagine the southeastern quadrant of the United 00:05:12.980 --> 00:05:14.920 States and that could be considered red wolf 00:05:14.920 --> 00:05:18.839 country. Okay, so they ranged quite a bit. Here's 00:05:18.839 --> 00:05:21.579 where red wolves and gray wolves differ a bit. 00:05:21.769 --> 00:05:25.529 Yeah. And it is the big problem for recovery. 00:05:26.230 --> 00:05:32.529 Red wolves have this odd predilection. When they 00:05:32.529 --> 00:05:36.230 occur in the wild in small numbers, they have 00:05:36.230 --> 00:05:38.589 this odd predilection to hybridize with coyotes. 00:05:38.850 --> 00:05:41.689 Oh boy, that's a problem. And it may be no more 00:05:41.689 --> 00:05:46.230 complicated than the fact that red wolves everywhere 00:05:46.230 --> 00:05:49.759 are monestrous. Female cycle once a year. That's 00:05:49.759 --> 00:05:52.180 a fundamental different wild wolves and domestic 00:05:52.180 --> 00:05:54.579 dogs a domestic dog will cycle about every nine 00:05:54.579 --> 00:05:59.600 months Okay, or less Gray wolves. It's it's an 00:05:59.600 --> 00:06:03.420 annual cycle both males and females Okay, let's 00:06:03.420 --> 00:06:05.519 assume how you get the chance to breed once a 00:06:05.519 --> 00:06:08.800 year. You're not gonna miss the opportunity man 00:06:08.800 --> 00:06:10.899 And you're wandering around your three -year 00:06:10.899 --> 00:06:13.660 -old male red wolf and you're ready to go and 00:06:13.660 --> 00:06:17.230 you can't find One of your kind, but you think 00:06:17.230 --> 00:06:19.889 on that coyote. She's not bad -looking That's 00:06:19.889 --> 00:06:22.949 not that'll work that'll work and and and it 00:06:22.949 --> 00:06:24.949 was kind of that Crossed and Steals Nash and 00:06:24.949 --> 00:06:26.589 Young tune if you can't be with the one you love 00:06:26.589 --> 00:06:29.829 love the one you're with Red wolves and coyotes. 00:06:29.910 --> 00:06:33.470 I have come together and and hybridized. There's 00:06:33.470 --> 00:06:37.050 an intergression Okay, as far as nature is concerned 00:06:37.050 --> 00:06:41.149 she thinks this is great Two species coming together. 00:06:41.449 --> 00:06:43.389 This is especially common in the plant world 00:06:43.720 --> 00:06:46.339 Two species coming together to give rise to a 00:06:46.339 --> 00:06:50.939 third form is a common mechanism of speciation, 00:06:51.500 --> 00:06:53.639 especially in the plant world. So you take a 00:06:53.639 --> 00:06:56.100 male red wolf and a female coyote and they breed 00:06:56.100 --> 00:06:58.899 and she has a litter of puppies. They're strong, 00:06:59.100 --> 00:07:02.100 vigorous, viable animals. Sure. Beautiful. Nature 00:07:02.100 --> 00:07:06.620 celebrates that. Those animals don't count. Under 00:07:06.620 --> 00:07:09.000 the Endangered Species Act because in the Endangered 00:07:09.000 --> 00:07:11.819 Species Act what matters above all else? What 00:07:11.819 --> 00:07:15.459 is the listed entity? What is the entity considered 00:07:15.459 --> 00:07:18.300 for protection under the law? Specifically when 00:07:18.300 --> 00:07:20.980 you look at the listing for the red wolf. It 00:07:20.980 --> 00:07:25.060 is Canis Rufus It is not Canis Rufus cross with 00:07:25.060 --> 00:07:28.500 a coyote Okay, so you've got this problem of 00:07:28.500 --> 00:07:30.319 hybridization. You have this problem of integration 00:07:30.540 --> 00:07:33.740 And I take it the northern gray wolves don't 00:07:33.740 --> 00:07:35.639 interbreed with coyotes? No, no, no, not with 00:07:35.639 --> 00:07:38.500 the same degree of regularity. You can talk about 00:07:38.500 --> 00:07:42.100 that, but no. No, they breed more true. You could 00:07:42.100 --> 00:07:45.319 fully expect gray wolves in Minnesota and coyotes 00:07:45.319 --> 00:07:49.199 in Minnesota to use the same country and you're 00:07:49.199 --> 00:07:51.839 not seeing a bunch of hybrid litters. As a matter 00:07:51.839 --> 00:07:54.160 of fact, in that same country, what tends to 00:07:54.160 --> 00:07:56.040 happen is the gray wolves kill the coyotes. Yeah, 00:07:56.180 --> 00:07:58.759 that's Yellowstone too, right? And this may be 00:07:58.759 --> 00:08:00.579 a function of small numbers of red wolves, but 00:08:00.579 --> 00:08:04.519 regardless, when we began the work in northeastern 00:08:04.519 --> 00:08:06.519 North Carolina, the Alligator River National 00:08:06.519 --> 00:08:08.680 Wildlife Refuge, it was seen as a highly suitable 00:08:08.680 --> 00:08:12.540 site because it was free of coyotes. OK. And 00:08:12.540 --> 00:08:14.939 so off we went with reintroductions and we had 00:08:14.939 --> 00:08:19.720 some success with about 100 wolves out. By about 00:08:19.720 --> 00:08:23.240 that time, I began that work in. I think I moved 00:08:23.240 --> 00:08:26.980 to Manny on North Carolina in 1985. I left for 00:08:26.980 --> 00:08:29.699 Yellowstone in about a decade later to run the 00:08:29.699 --> 00:08:32.220 Yellowstone project and as I was leaving North 00:08:32.220 --> 00:08:34.879 Carolina leaving the riddle project We had about 00:08:34.879 --> 00:08:36.620 a hundred animals on the ground and things were 00:08:36.620 --> 00:08:40.159 going swimmingly and then one thing happened 00:08:40.159 --> 00:08:44.379 Within about a year or two before I left we We 00:08:44.379 --> 00:08:46.480 bumped into this litter of puppies that we couldn't 00:08:46.480 --> 00:08:49.879 explain Mm -hmm. We knew that there they were 00:08:49.879 --> 00:08:51.580 associated with the little female coyote that 00:08:51.580 --> 00:08:53.259 we knew about but we didn't know who her mate 00:08:53.259 --> 00:08:56.059 was and she was in bad shape because of mange 00:08:56.059 --> 00:08:59.559 we bumped into the puppies they were in bad shape 00:08:59.559 --> 00:09:02.379 because of mange and so we brought the puppies 00:09:02.379 --> 00:09:04.960 into captivity we had a site on the refuge that 00:09:04.960 --> 00:09:07.159 we could properly care for canids in captivity 00:09:07.159 --> 00:09:09.720 and we cleaned them up and we said let's see 00:09:09.720 --> 00:09:11.559 what they look like when they're 18 months of 00:09:11.559 --> 00:09:15.019 age when they're truly adult size and one grew 00:09:15.019 --> 00:09:16.980 up to look like a good red wolf and one group 00:09:16.980 --> 00:09:18.779 to look a good coyote and there was one right 00:09:18.779 --> 00:09:21.330 in the middle Okay. And so we were beginning 00:09:21.330 --> 00:09:23.870 to see this problem of integration surface in 00:09:23.870 --> 00:09:26.110 Northeastern North Carolina as I was leaving 00:09:26.110 --> 00:09:28.929 for Yellowstone. That problem has persisted. 00:09:29.429 --> 00:09:36.110 It was combined with a profound problem of poaching. 00:09:36.649 --> 00:09:39.230 Okay. And I will say something about the Department 00:09:39.230 --> 00:09:42.429 of Justice here in a moment. Sure. Between excessive 00:09:42.429 --> 00:09:46.049 human -caused mortality, shooting red wolves, 00:09:46.830 --> 00:09:50.000 and hybridization with coyotes, the program did 00:09:50.000 --> 00:09:53.600 a nosedive. And here we are, 2026. Let's say 00:09:53.600 --> 00:09:57.799 I began that work in 1986. 40 years later, Ed, 00:10:00.059 --> 00:10:04.279 the Red Wolf is in worse shape in my mind than 00:10:04.279 --> 00:10:08.620 what it was when I showed up in manual in 1986. 00:10:08.740 --> 00:10:12.600 Because at least in 86, we had reason to be hopeful. 00:10:14.009 --> 00:10:16.610 I don't know that we have reason to be hopeful 00:10:16.610 --> 00:10:19.450 for the red wolf in 2026 if we're thinking about 00:10:19.450 --> 00:10:23.509 areas where Coyotes occur. Yeah, when you look 00:10:23.509 --> 00:10:26.169 at the United States, that's a hard place to 00:10:26.169 --> 00:10:28.490 find a place where there aren't any coyotes Yeah, 00:10:28.549 --> 00:10:30.509 they're in Los Angeles right here in my neighborhood. 00:10:30.750 --> 00:10:33.090 So here's my punchline on the red wolf program 00:10:33.090 --> 00:10:35.750 I hold the species in high regard. I know a lot 00:10:35.750 --> 00:10:37.909 about it I was proud to be a member of that team 00:10:37.909 --> 00:10:39.710 for a period of time working for the United States 00:10:39.710 --> 00:10:42.360 Fish and Wildlife Service, but As an objective 00:10:42.360 --> 00:10:45.019 biologist and someone that has served in public 00:10:45.019 --> 00:10:47.659 office, and I know that the citizens, the voters 00:10:47.659 --> 00:10:49.899 of this country deserve that we be honest with 00:10:49.899 --> 00:10:52.639 them, it is, I am willing to admit, for the red 00:10:52.639 --> 00:10:56.360 wolf, it might simply be an expression of the 00:10:56.360 --> 00:10:59.860 children's tale. Despite all the king's horses 00:10:59.860 --> 00:11:03.360 and all the king's men, sometimes you can't put 00:11:03.360 --> 00:11:06.679 Humpty Dumpty back together again. And there 00:11:06.679 --> 00:11:09.340 are other species, Ed, that probably are not 00:11:09.340 --> 00:11:12.769 recoverable. in today's landscapes. I fail to 00:11:12.769 --> 00:11:14.669 see how in the world you're going to recover 00:11:14.669 --> 00:11:18.070 key deer in Florida. Yeah. We've done a lot of 00:11:18.070 --> 00:11:20.269 work with opulmonophalcons in the southwest. 00:11:20.730 --> 00:11:23.590 It may be another species that is simply not 00:11:23.590 --> 00:11:26.330 recoverable in a manner that fits the spirit 00:11:26.330 --> 00:11:29.429 and intent of the Endangered Species Act. That 00:11:29.429 --> 00:11:31.350 is a thumbnail sketch of the Red Bull program. 00:11:31.690 --> 00:11:35.990 I am concerned for it. And I just fail to see 00:11:35.990 --> 00:11:39.679 how, given this persistent predilection, To hybridize 00:11:39.679 --> 00:11:43.759 with coyotes, I don't see how you build the red 00:11:43.759 --> 00:11:47.879 wolf of future that would comport with the future 00:11:47.879 --> 00:11:56.899 demanded by the Endangered Species Act. Northern 00:11:56.899 --> 00:11:59.259 gray wolves these are not liked animals and there's 00:11:59.259 --> 00:12:01.259 a lot of poaching I take it so between those 00:12:01.259 --> 00:12:03.659 two I see it was bullshit poaching is bullshit 00:12:03.659 --> 00:12:05.620 poaching in a handful of counties in Northeastern 00:12:05.620 --> 00:12:07.399 North Carolina North Carolina said oh shit man 00:12:07.399 --> 00:12:09.980 we have to shoot canids at night and then let's 00:12:09.980 --> 00:12:11.860 go on a while of resources Commission said sure 00:12:11.860 --> 00:12:14.279 go shoot him at night so now now they're unloading 00:12:14.279 --> 00:12:17.000 on coyotes at night well dog on it Ed if you 00:12:17.000 --> 00:12:18.779 and I were in the woods in Northeastern North 00:12:18.779 --> 00:12:21.080 Carolina and we look down that logging road and 00:12:21.080 --> 00:12:22.639 we say shit man look at there's a canid what 00:12:22.639 --> 00:12:26.409 is that man is that a coyote Or is that a six 00:12:26.409 --> 00:12:28.750 -month -old red wolf? What the hell is that? 00:12:29.230 --> 00:12:32.370 Okay. In this country, and you know this is a 00:12:32.370 --> 00:12:35.090 special agent, let's hope your listeners know 00:12:35.090 --> 00:12:37.750 it, too. They will by the time this episode comes 00:12:37.750 --> 00:12:41.429 out, yes. In this country, it is expected, it's 00:12:41.429 --> 00:12:45.190 a critical component of the fair chase philosophy, 00:12:45.629 --> 00:12:48.649 and it undergirds all of our laws concerning 00:12:48.649 --> 00:12:53.149 wildlife use. You cannot pull the trigger. Unless 00:12:53.149 --> 00:12:56.070 you know unequivocally what it is you're shooting. 00:12:56.110 --> 00:12:58.490 You can't go to court and say gee was your honor 00:12:58.490 --> 00:13:01.909 I'm so sorry. I thought that eagle was a crow 00:13:01.909 --> 00:13:06.090 Exactly enough mistaken identity is not a defense 00:13:06.090 --> 00:13:09.289 What the Department of Justice did was they didn't 00:13:09.289 --> 00:13:12.250 press these cases They didn't say I don't give 00:13:12.250 --> 00:13:14.309 a shit that you thought that was a coyote. You 00:13:14.309 --> 00:13:16.789 shot a red wolf. That's against the law That's 00:13:16.789 --> 00:13:19.330 not incidental take because you purposely pulled 00:13:19.330 --> 00:13:23.080 the trigger Here's the incidental take as special 00:13:23.080 --> 00:13:25.700 agents like you described to me. Here's an incidental 00:13:25.700 --> 00:13:27.419 take of a red wolf that would not get you busted. 00:13:27.899 --> 00:13:30.639 You shoot a white -tailed deer lawfully. The 00:13:30.639 --> 00:13:33.399 bullet passes through the deer, travels down 00:13:33.399 --> 00:13:35.299 the road, hits the wolf in the head and kills 00:13:35.299 --> 00:13:38.679 it. That's an incidental take. That's not what 00:13:38.679 --> 00:13:43.000 was happening at night with spotlights, ostensibly 00:13:43.000 --> 00:13:45.000 because they thought they needed to kill coyotes. 00:13:45.600 --> 00:13:50.019 So it was ridiculous, once again, needless killing. 00:13:50.399 --> 00:13:53.360 And in this particular case, I think for an extended 00:13:53.360 --> 00:13:56.539 period of time, the United States Fish and Wildlife 00:13:56.539 --> 00:13:59.440 Service Special Agents were not good enough at 00:13:59.440 --> 00:14:02.100 convincing the Department of Justice to pursue 00:14:02.100 --> 00:14:05.360 these cases in a court of law. Well, I'll tell 00:14:05.360 --> 00:14:09.299 you what. The reason for that comes out of McKittrick. 00:14:09.519 --> 00:14:11.360 That's exactly right. You go there, I'll go there 00:14:11.360 --> 00:14:16.110 too. Hey, by this time my listeners know what 00:14:16.110 --> 00:14:19.769 the McKittrick policy is at DOJ. We are dissecting 00:14:19.769 --> 00:14:23.690 that hard during this season because it is a 00:14:23.690 --> 00:14:26.889 wrong decision. Here's the irony, Ed. If you're 00:14:26.889 --> 00:14:29.309 a waterfowl hunter, and I'm not, I don't hunt 00:14:29.309 --> 00:14:30.870 waterfowl, but I don't understand the process 00:14:30.870 --> 00:14:34.009 well enough, I get it. We expect waterfowl hunters 00:14:34.009 --> 00:14:37.830 to make fine distinctions on the wing. You have 00:14:37.830 --> 00:14:41.250 to be able to tell a canvasback from a similar 00:14:41.250 --> 00:14:46.740 species. And if you can't, and you take one unlawfully, 00:14:47.139 --> 00:14:50.039 it doesn't matter that you didn't properly ID 00:14:50.039 --> 00:14:53.860 that bird on the wing. You broke the law. And 00:14:53.860 --> 00:14:57.620 a CO would press that case. Yep. Conservation 00:14:57.620 --> 00:14:59.799 officer would definitely press that case. And 00:14:59.799 --> 00:15:02.720 that case would almost surely succeed in court 00:15:02.720 --> 00:15:06.169 with some sort of fine. In contrast, Because 00:15:06.169 --> 00:15:08.409 of the Chad McKittrick claiming that all number 00:15:08.409 --> 00:15:11.049 10 was I thought it was a dog and and you know 00:15:11.049 --> 00:15:13.789 You're at DOG was somehow impressed by that bullshit 00:15:13.789 --> 00:15:16.970 claim of mistaken identity If you don't know 00:15:16.970 --> 00:15:19.870 in the country if you don't know folks, don't 00:15:19.870 --> 00:15:22.389 pull the trigger Don't pull the trigger and that 00:15:22.389 --> 00:15:25.129 is common knowledge among all hunters or anybody 00:15:25.129 --> 00:15:27.809 who handles firearms You you are responsible 00:15:27.809 --> 00:15:31.769 for where that bullet goes period 100 % and that's 00:15:31.769 --> 00:15:38.279 what that's the red wolf. I I am I am Yeah, I 00:15:38.279 --> 00:15:40.519 don't see how you get from where you are to where 00:15:40.519 --> 00:15:43.639 you need to be pal I suspected and you know one 00:15:43.639 --> 00:15:46.399 thing that kind of cued me in that that was probably 00:15:46.399 --> 00:15:49.299 the the fate is that when I reached out to some 00:15:49.299 --> 00:15:51.340 agents who used to work in the southeast and 00:15:51.340 --> 00:15:53.240 asked them to come on to talk about the enforcement 00:15:53.240 --> 00:15:56.399 issues related to red wolves I Couldn't get anybody 00:15:56.399 --> 00:15:59.279 to agree because they one of the answers I got 00:15:59.279 --> 00:16:02.299 was you know i don't want to go on and give anybody 00:16:02.299 --> 00:16:04.700 any ideas about how they could kill one more 00:16:04.700 --> 00:16:07.639 red wolf you know i'm like well that's depressing 00:16:07.639 --> 00:16:11.480 as hell right now i don't i agree and maybe i 00:16:11.480 --> 00:16:14.220 shouldn't have said anything no i mean the bottom 00:16:14.220 --> 00:16:17.759 line the bottom line you know mike is that people 00:16:17.759 --> 00:16:20.220 people who are out to kill red wolves they know 00:16:20.220 --> 00:16:23.639 very well what the mckittrick memo says and they 00:16:23.639 --> 00:16:25.559 know very well what to say if they get caught 00:16:25.950 --> 00:16:32.049 and they're very savvy. We're not going to give 00:16:32.049 --> 00:16:34.509 anybody any ideas about it because they already 00:16:34.509 --> 00:16:37.269 know exactly how they're going to go poach. And 00:16:37.269 --> 00:16:41.330 so folks know there's maybe 10 or 20 red wolves, 00:16:41.330 --> 00:16:44.269 I'm sorry, 10 or 20 red wolves that are free 00:16:44.269 --> 00:16:46.129 ranging at the Alligator River National Wildlife 00:16:46.129 --> 00:16:49.639 Refuge. And that's an interesting number for 00:16:49.639 --> 00:16:51.980 those 10 or 20 they get to live lives of freedom 00:16:51.980 --> 00:16:55.700 That in no mean constitutes a population and 00:16:55.700 --> 00:16:58.360 certainly you're a long long ways from recovery 00:16:58.360 --> 00:17:01.639 We're 40 years in I am less optimistic for the 00:17:01.639 --> 00:17:04.819 red wolf now than I was 40 years ago Beyond the 00:17:04.819 --> 00:17:08.440 problem of illegal killing you have this background 00:17:08.440 --> 00:17:11.920 concern of hybridization with coyotes. Yeah interesting 00:17:12.720 --> 00:17:15.539 Well, on that sad note, let's turn to the Mexican 00:17:15.539 --> 00:17:19.740 gray wolves. Those are, of course, in the southeastern 00:17:19.740 --> 00:17:24.519 U .S., in Mexico now, but also in Arizona and 00:17:24.519 --> 00:17:27.440 New Mexico. What's your involvement with the 00:17:27.440 --> 00:17:30.559 Mexican gray wolf recovery projects? Yeah. So 00:17:30.559 --> 00:17:34.740 folks know red wolf Canis rufus, gray wolf Canis 00:17:34.740 --> 00:17:37.940 lupus, and the Mexican gray wolf is Canis lupus, 00:17:37.940 --> 00:17:41.259 and there's lots of subspecies of Canis lupus. 00:17:41.900 --> 00:17:44.099 You could make a case that the gray wolves in 00:17:44.099 --> 00:17:47.980 Yellowstone are best considered Canis lupus irremotus. 00:17:48.460 --> 00:17:50.500 The gray wolves of Minnesota are best considered 00:17:50.500 --> 00:17:54.039 Canis lupus nubilus. The Mexican gray wolf is 00:17:54.039 --> 00:17:58.039 best considered Canis lupus balei. From a taxonomic 00:17:58.039 --> 00:18:00.400 perspective, I'm a lumper. I'm not a splitter. 00:18:00.779 --> 00:18:03.380 As far as I'm concerned, it's Canis lupus irregardless. 00:18:04.019 --> 00:18:08.069 But nonetheless... I love it. The Mexican wolf 00:18:08.069 --> 00:18:10.430 is a listed entity. It's considered by federal 00:18:10.430 --> 00:18:12.789 law under the Endangered Species Act. And so 00:18:12.789 --> 00:18:16.430 Canis lupus balei is a name that has standing 00:18:16.430 --> 00:18:21.329 under federal law. I have been a member of every 00:18:21.329 --> 00:18:23.670 Mexican wolf recovery team that's been convened 00:18:23.670 --> 00:18:30.230 since 1995. I know the science and the mechanics 00:18:30.230 --> 00:18:33.930 and the philosophy. that undergirds Mexican gray 00:18:33.930 --> 00:18:37.990 wolf recovery very, very well. Since 1998, my 00:18:37.990 --> 00:18:40.329 shop, the Turner Endangered Species Fund, has 00:18:40.329 --> 00:18:43.750 maintained the only private captive breeding 00:18:43.750 --> 00:18:46.089 and pre -release facility for Mexican wolves 00:18:46.089 --> 00:18:49.309 in the world at Mr. Turner's Ladder Ranch. We 00:18:49.309 --> 00:18:53.490 have housed well over 100 animals at that facility 00:18:53.490 --> 00:18:56.410 over the last, what would that be, 1998, over 00:18:56.410 --> 00:18:58.849 the last nearly 30 years. We've had large numbers 00:18:58.849 --> 00:19:01.349 of puppies born there. We've had animals that 00:19:01.349 --> 00:19:04.049 come from wherever to our place to go to Mexico. 00:19:04.230 --> 00:19:06.069 We're an important stop on the way to Mexico. 00:19:06.509 --> 00:19:08.829 So I have been deeply, deeply involved in the 00:19:08.829 --> 00:19:14.549 Mexican Wolf Recovery Program since 1995. I know 00:19:14.549 --> 00:19:19.089 the program very, very well. And I am willing 00:19:19.089 --> 00:19:25.210 to debate anybody, anytime, anyplace. The Mexican 00:19:25.210 --> 00:19:28.230 Wolf Recovery Program, the Mexican Wolf Recovery 00:19:28.230 --> 00:19:32.519 Plan, That's currently constituted will fail 00:19:32.519 --> 00:19:36.039 Will fail that's interesting because it's it's 00:19:36.039 --> 00:19:39.299 not doing as well as you know the Yellowstone 00:19:39.299 --> 00:19:43.140 release or the northern Rockies releases but 00:19:43.140 --> 00:19:45.839 Because you know those wolves are now into California. 00:19:45.839 --> 00:19:48.900 They've dispersed as far as California What why 00:19:48.900 --> 00:19:51.819 why isn't the Mexican gray wolf recovery program? 00:19:52.099 --> 00:19:58.319 doing as well The habitat of the southwest is 00:19:58.319 --> 00:20:01.259 not as accommodating as the habitats further 00:20:01.259 --> 00:20:04.799 north into Montana and Oregon and Idaho and Washington. 00:20:06.200 --> 00:20:08.720 Meaning what? Not as much prey or what? The prey 00:20:08.720 --> 00:20:12.720 biomass is not quite the same. There's not the 00:20:12.720 --> 00:20:17.680 big massive tracks of public land where any gray 00:20:17.680 --> 00:20:19.700 wolf would receive reasonable consideration. 00:20:21.640 --> 00:20:24.140 The United States Fish and Wildlife Service In 00:20:24.140 --> 00:20:26.420 what I would argue, and I'll debate anybody, 00:20:26.819 --> 00:20:29.720 anytime, anywhere, on this particular point, 00:20:29.799 --> 00:20:32.160 they have adopted this wrong -headed approach 00:20:32.160 --> 00:20:36.539 of retrieving a Mexican gray wolf just because 00:20:36.539 --> 00:20:40.259 it wanders a certain distance to the north. If 00:20:40.259 --> 00:20:42.839 a Mexican gray wolf wanders north of Interstate 00:20:42.839 --> 00:20:46.119 40, the Fish and Wildlife Service is inclined 00:20:46.119 --> 00:20:48.940 to catch it and bring it back south of I -40. 00:20:49.289 --> 00:20:52.349 even though the animal hasn't caused any problem 00:20:52.349 --> 00:20:54.369 except standing on a piece of ground north of 00:20:54.369 --> 00:20:57.789 I -40. And now, honestly, the prey base north 00:20:57.789 --> 00:20:59.549 of 40 is probably better than it is up there. 00:20:59.549 --> 00:21:02.289 Well, it certainly gets better. Yeah. And I have 00:21:02.289 --> 00:21:04.630 to believe that wolves are sometimes motivated 00:21:04.630 --> 00:21:07.589 by food, but regardless of why she's north of 00:21:07.589 --> 00:21:10.789 I -40, if she's north of I -40 but not causing 00:21:10.789 --> 00:21:13.519 any problem, why would we... Why would we monkey 00:21:13.519 --> 00:21:16.440 with her? Here's a good way to look at it. We 00:21:16.440 --> 00:21:19.680 don't manage common species that way. We don't 00:21:19.680 --> 00:21:22.660 say cottontail rabbits are okay until they cross 00:21:22.660 --> 00:21:24.380 this line and then we're gonna go get them and 00:21:24.380 --> 00:21:26.039 do something with them. It's a wrong -headed 00:21:26.039 --> 00:21:30.079 way to look at wildlife management and wildlife 00:21:30.079 --> 00:21:34.619 restoration. But here's why it exists. And also, 00:21:34.940 --> 00:21:37.180 when you explain this, because earlier you were 00:21:37.180 --> 00:21:39.559 talking about in the earlier parts of the northern 00:21:39.559 --> 00:21:41.440 gray wolf reintroduction, you kind of took an 00:21:41.440 --> 00:21:44.480 intensive management approach. So why wouldn't 00:21:44.480 --> 00:21:46.359 you do that with the Mexicans? Well, the Fish 00:21:46.359 --> 00:21:48.440 and Wildlife Service has intensively managed 00:21:48.440 --> 00:21:52.299 Mexican gray wolves, and they have done so successfully. 00:21:53.200 --> 00:21:56.180 Well, gee whiz, Mike, why is it failing? Yeah. 00:21:56.720 --> 00:21:58.700 And it's kind of a long story, but let me see 00:21:58.700 --> 00:22:02.789 if I can do it rather quickly. For many many 00:22:02.789 --> 00:22:06.349 years me and and my colleagues were the science 00:22:06.349 --> 00:22:09.970 voice for the Mexican wolf recovery Program and 00:22:09.970 --> 00:22:12.630 for the Mexican wolf recovery planning process. 00:22:12.769 --> 00:22:15.369 Okay, and so we took a deep dive into a simple 00:22:15.369 --> 00:22:20.029 question Where could gray wolf successfully go 00:22:20.029 --> 00:22:23.890 in the southwestern United States? We did a study 00:22:23.890 --> 00:22:27.029 of habitat suitability Okay, now gee whiz holy 00:22:27.029 --> 00:22:32.359 mackerel Western Colorado highly suitable Northern 00:22:32.359 --> 00:22:35.460 Arizona, southeastern Utah, highly suitable. 00:22:36.160 --> 00:22:40.200 And the country in southwestern New Mexico and 00:22:40.200 --> 00:22:42.680 southeastern Arizona, just north of the border, 00:22:43.279 --> 00:22:46.319 highly suitable too. You've got these three big 00:22:46.319 --> 00:22:50.200 banks of opportunity in southwestern New Mexico, 00:22:50.440 --> 00:22:52.299 southeastern Arizona. That's the southern part. 00:22:52.960 --> 00:22:55.720 Your northwestern part is the Grand Canyon eco 00:22:55.720 --> 00:22:58.680 -region of Arizona and Utah. And your northeastern 00:22:58.680 --> 00:23:02.240 part of this triangle is the Southern Rockies 00:23:02.240 --> 00:23:04.640 eco -region of Southern Colorado and Northern 00:23:04.640 --> 00:23:07.880 New Mexico. Okay. You look at Habitat Suda building, 00:23:08.079 --> 00:23:09.779 you look at things like road density, you think, 00:23:09.880 --> 00:23:13.859 wow, this is a winner. This could work really 00:23:13.859 --> 00:23:15.859 well. It would start to look a lot like the Northern 00:23:15.859 --> 00:23:18.299 Rocky Mountains, where you had three populations 00:23:18.299 --> 00:23:21.519 that had to communicate, one in Idaho, one in 00:23:21.519 --> 00:23:24.440 Montana, one in Yellowstone, same idea in the 00:23:24.440 --> 00:23:27.019 Southwest, it would work beautifully. Yeah. It 00:23:27.019 --> 00:23:30.380 would work beautifully. The states didn't like 00:23:30.380 --> 00:23:33.380 that at all the states of Wyoming I'm sorry the 00:23:33.380 --> 00:23:36.779 states of Colorado and Utah and Arizona and New 00:23:36.779 --> 00:23:40.339 Mexico said bullshit to that idea bullshit and 00:23:40.339 --> 00:23:42.079 They kept getting in the way that kept getting 00:23:42.079 --> 00:23:43.960 in the way that kept getting in the way for a 00:23:43.960 --> 00:23:46.460 long period of time I'm telling you what at years 00:23:46.460 --> 00:23:54.599 hmm we began this work in 1995 and by 2014 Nearly 00:23:54.599 --> 00:23:58.859 20 years later the states had convinced the feds 00:23:58.680 --> 00:24:02.720 to discard the notion of moving Mexican wolves 00:24:02.720 --> 00:24:04.980 into the Grand Canyon eco -region and the Southern 00:24:04.980 --> 00:24:07.980 Rockies eco -region. They said the northern option's 00:24:07.980 --> 00:24:09.500 ridiculous. You shouldn't do that. Here's what 00:24:09.500 --> 00:24:13.539 you should do instead. The southern option. Mexican 00:24:13.539 --> 00:24:16.920 wolf recovery should focus on central Arizona 00:24:16.920 --> 00:24:21.359 and central New Mexico, south into Mexico. And 00:24:21.359 --> 00:24:23.220 they were able to convince the United States 00:24:23.220 --> 00:24:25.220 Fish and Wildlife Service of that southern option. 00:24:25.660 --> 00:24:29.279 For a ten -year period of time that started at 00:24:29.279 --> 00:24:32.220 the beginning of 2018 So the feds are committed 00:24:32.220 --> 00:24:35.019 to this southern option at least until probably 00:24:35.019 --> 00:24:40.059 2028 or 2029 Okay, will not work right? Here's 00:24:40.059 --> 00:24:44.910 why it will not work It says You need about 300 00:24:44.910 --> 00:24:47.650 wolves in the United States part of that southern 00:24:47.650 --> 00:24:50.170 option for eight years, and you need about 200 00:24:50.170 --> 00:24:53.630 Mexican wolves in Mexico in the southern portion 00:24:53.630 --> 00:24:55.329 of that southern option for about eight years. 00:24:55.609 --> 00:24:57.710 There's not a snowball's chance in hell, Ed, 00:24:57.970 --> 00:24:59.950 that you're going to establish a population of 00:24:59.950 --> 00:25:02.970 200 wolves in Mexico for any successive years. 00:25:03.150 --> 00:25:05.329 It ain't going to happen. And here's why it won't 00:25:05.329 --> 00:25:09.289 happen. There's virtually no public land in Mexico. 00:25:09.450 --> 00:25:13.079 It's all privately owned or... owned by communities 00:25:13.079 --> 00:25:16.099 known as ajitos. It's still private property. 00:25:17.180 --> 00:25:20.319 They have our Mexican colleagues, beautiful biologists, 00:25:20.380 --> 00:25:23.500 I think the world of them, but they don't have 00:25:23.500 --> 00:25:26.299 a reliable sense of the distribution of native 00:25:26.299 --> 00:25:29.660 prey. And you get the sense that there's not 00:25:29.660 --> 00:25:33.079 that much in the form of white -tailed deer in 00:25:33.079 --> 00:25:40.200 Mexico, and there's no elk. And finally... They 00:25:40.200 --> 00:25:45.619 don't have any way to contradict a simple claim. 00:25:46.880 --> 00:25:50.000 There's livestock everywhere. Yeah. Livestock 00:25:50.000 --> 00:25:53.500 everywhere. So here's a piece of ground, no public 00:25:53.500 --> 00:25:57.559 land, unknown numbers of native prey, but they're 00:25:57.559 --> 00:26:01.779 scarce, and livestock everywhere. That is a tremendous 00:26:01.779 --> 00:26:05.980 formula for conflict. Yep. And yet, the Fed said, 00:26:06.180 --> 00:26:07.960 no, no, no, we're going to insist that about 00:26:07.960 --> 00:26:11.920 40 percent of the work that needs to be done 00:26:11.920 --> 00:26:14.460 to recover the Mexican wolf has to be done in 00:26:14.460 --> 00:26:18.319 Mexico. Ed, it will not work. Now, you might 00:26:18.319 --> 00:26:21.079 ask, why did the feds buy into this? Yeah, why 00:26:21.079 --> 00:26:24.400 did they? Some really talented biologists in 00:26:24.400 --> 00:26:28.299 Mexico and the United States came together and 00:26:28.299 --> 00:26:32.680 they did a habitat suitability study. Okay. And 00:26:32.680 --> 00:26:35.980 so they built this model. this black box that 00:26:35.980 --> 00:26:38.980 said if we put the right stuff into the black 00:26:38.980 --> 00:26:42.079 box that is this habitat model, it'll spit out 00:26:42.079 --> 00:26:45.880 answers as to where good habitat exists. I see. 00:26:46.279 --> 00:26:48.519 Got it. We did the same thing when we looked 00:26:48.519 --> 00:26:50.640 at the Grand Canyon Eco -region and the Southern 00:26:50.640 --> 00:26:54.400 Rockies Eco -region. We did the same thing. But 00:26:54.400 --> 00:26:56.480 here's what they didn't do with their black box. 00:26:57.180 --> 00:27:01.160 They left out two very important data layers 00:27:01.160 --> 00:27:05.279 that have great influence over habitat suitability 00:27:05.279 --> 00:27:08.079 for wolves. They did not include a layer for 00:27:08.079 --> 00:27:12.799 land ownership. In the United States, wolf recovery 00:27:12.799 --> 00:27:16.099 has been advanced across large tracts of federal 00:27:16.099 --> 00:27:20.779 lands, not private lands. Mexico is nearly all 00:27:20.779 --> 00:27:25.799 privately owned. They had no component in their 00:27:25.799 --> 00:27:28.859 habitat model for land ownership. And then secondly, 00:27:29.980 --> 00:27:32.839 they had no component in their habitat model 00:27:33.049 --> 00:27:35.390 for the distribution and abundance of livestock. 00:27:36.130 --> 00:27:40.049 Right. And yet, a consistent point of friction 00:27:40.049 --> 00:27:44.549 between humans and wolves is conflict with livestock. 00:27:45.509 --> 00:27:47.430 Everywhere in the United States where wolf recovery 00:27:47.430 --> 00:27:51.130 has advanced, it's been across large tracts of 00:27:51.130 --> 00:27:53.890 federal public lands. Open land, yeah. That support 00:27:53.890 --> 00:27:56.970 a great deal more native prey, deer and elk, 00:27:57.470 --> 00:28:01.539 than livestock. Those two are essential. aspects 00:28:01.539 --> 00:28:03.839 of habitat suitable for gray wolves. In this 00:28:03.839 --> 00:28:06.339 habitat suitability model for Mexico, they left 00:28:06.339 --> 00:28:09.859 them out. And then finally, the third piece that 00:28:09.859 --> 00:28:13.539 matters. In the United States, wolf recovery 00:28:13.539 --> 00:28:16.119 has gone forward because of large tracts of federal 00:28:16.119 --> 00:28:19.200 public land, good numbers of native prey compared 00:28:19.200 --> 00:28:23.059 to livestock, and a federal law, the Nature Species 00:28:23.059 --> 00:28:27.259 Act, that mandates recovery. The secretary shall 00:28:27.259 --> 00:28:29.200 advance recovery. I'm paraphrasing, but that's 00:28:29.200 --> 00:28:31.869 basically what the law says. Recovery for the 00:28:31.869 --> 00:28:34.069 Secretary of the Interior is not a discretionary 00:28:34.069 --> 00:28:39.049 activity. In contrast, in Mexico, their equivalent 00:28:39.049 --> 00:28:41.990 of our Endangered Species Act simply says recovery 00:28:41.990 --> 00:28:45.450 would be fine, but it's not mandated. So there 00:28:45.450 --> 00:28:48.569 is no force of mandate pushing the program forward. 00:28:48.829 --> 00:28:50.730 And as it turns out, Ed, you know this pal is 00:28:50.730 --> 00:28:53.329 a special agent. The United States government 00:28:53.329 --> 00:28:57.299 has no statutory authority in Mexico. Right. 00:28:57.299 --> 00:29:01.019 It's a foreign country. It's absolutely shocking. 00:29:01.279 --> 00:29:04.859 Okay, finally, the fourth piece. No public land, 00:29:05.579 --> 00:29:07.880 unknown numbers of native prey, you got livestock 00:29:07.880 --> 00:29:10.000 everywhere, you've got no mandate. The fifth 00:29:10.000 --> 00:29:11.740 piece, the fifth piece, here's the fifth piece, 00:29:11.920 --> 00:29:12.839 this is a real wonder, you're gonna love this 00:29:12.839 --> 00:29:14.839 one, especially, you're gonna love this, the 00:29:14.839 --> 00:29:17.359 fifth piece. The fifth nail in the coffin, if 00:29:17.359 --> 00:29:19.859 you will. Some of the best country in Mexico, 00:29:19.980 --> 00:29:23.660 the big wild country, is controlled by cartels. 00:29:23.880 --> 00:29:26.460 Yeah, I knew you were going to say that. I knew 00:29:26.460 --> 00:29:29.319 you were going to say that. You can't work with 00:29:29.319 --> 00:29:33.079 some sense that you are secure from violence. 00:29:33.759 --> 00:29:37.039 I've had teammates that have gone into Mexico 00:29:37.039 --> 00:29:39.759 on behalf of our Bull Santana's project that 00:29:39.759 --> 00:29:43.420 had been stopped at night on a rural road by 00:29:43.420 --> 00:29:46.599 armed banditos. Nothing came of it, but it could 00:29:46.599 --> 00:29:49.339 have. I even had one of my colleagues work for 00:29:49.339 --> 00:29:51.180 Arizona Game and Fish, and he said, this is great. 00:29:51.539 --> 00:29:53.759 All that wild country is controlled by cartels. 00:29:54.180 --> 00:29:57.099 I said, Jim, you're telling me that this is good 00:29:57.099 --> 00:29:59.319 habitat for gray wolves because of the drug trade. 00:30:00.380 --> 00:30:03.200 How in the world does that work, man? That's 00:30:03.200 --> 00:30:05.380 not a stakeholder you're going to be. You're 00:30:05.380 --> 00:30:07.900 going to win. This is crazy, man. This is crazy. 00:30:08.359 --> 00:30:12.619 And the sixth piece. There's another piece. I'll 00:30:12.619 --> 00:30:16.299 debate anybody, anytime, anywhere. The final 00:30:16.299 --> 00:30:18.460 piece, the final nail in the coffin. When you 00:30:18.460 --> 00:30:21.500 look at wolf population establishment via reintroductions, 00:30:21.519 --> 00:30:23.480 and this goes back to what I said about Yellowstone 00:30:23.480 --> 00:30:26.339 and the red wolf work, there is at the beginning 00:30:26.339 --> 00:30:30.180 an intense period, a period of very intense field 00:30:30.180 --> 00:30:34.140 work to promote population growth and to prevent 00:30:34.140 --> 00:30:35.819 and resolve conflicts. You've got to be able 00:30:35.819 --> 00:30:40.220 to work with wolves on the ground. Ed. If Mexico's 00:30:40.220 --> 00:30:42.559 all privately owned, who am I supposed to talk 00:30:42.559 --> 00:30:46.579 to to get the key to get through that gate? And 00:30:46.579 --> 00:30:48.759 that's assuming that the guy that owns the gate, 00:30:48.960 --> 00:30:50.299 that owns the land, is going to give me the key 00:30:50.299 --> 00:30:53.779 to get through. How do I put my boots on the 00:30:53.779 --> 00:30:56.259 ground with enough regularity to do the management 00:30:56.259 --> 00:30:58.599 that is needed to promote population growth? 00:30:58.900 --> 00:31:01.460 There's not a snowball's chance in hell that 00:31:01.460 --> 00:31:05.089 Mexico's going to work. No, and you know what 00:31:05.089 --> 00:31:08.049 else I mean if you even back up to the 95 time 00:31:08.049 --> 00:31:12.250 in the in the Idaho, Montana area our agents 00:31:12.250 --> 00:31:15.430 had some trouble with some early investigations 00:31:15.430 --> 00:31:19.430 because they were running into armed anti -government 00:31:19.430 --> 00:31:22.089 militia type people who hated the government 00:31:22.089 --> 00:31:25.670 and That's gonna be a hundred fold down there 00:31:25.670 --> 00:31:29.710 in Mexico work. It's not here was the last piece 00:31:29.710 --> 00:31:34.440 of the what I consider the sad tragedy of the 00:31:34.440 --> 00:31:37.500 Mexican wolf through a wrong -headed recovery 00:31:37.500 --> 00:31:43.640 planning process. By 2017, the service had cemented 00:31:43.640 --> 00:31:47.160 the southern option, advancing Mexican wolf recovery 00:31:47.160 --> 00:31:50.039 from central Arizona and central New Mexico, 00:31:50.519 --> 00:31:53.430 south into Mexico. walking away from the northern 00:31:53.430 --> 00:31:56.150 option, which would have been to move Mexican 00:31:56.150 --> 00:31:58.509 wolves into the Grand Canyon ecoregion of Arizona 00:31:58.509 --> 00:32:00.509 and Utah and the Southern Rockies ecoregion of 00:32:00.509 --> 00:32:02.150 Northern New Mexico and Southern Colorado. Yeah. 00:32:02.450 --> 00:32:04.289 Arguably better habitat, yeah. When they made 00:32:04.289 --> 00:32:07.410 that, I said, OK, fine. I've done my best, assembled 00:32:07.410 --> 00:32:11.549 the best available science, and it is the service's 00:32:11.549 --> 00:32:16.750 responsibility and opportunity. You decide the 00:32:16.750 --> 00:32:18.950 direction of a recovery program. You've cast 00:32:19.230 --> 00:32:23.329 You're fly. I'm with you. I'm going to move on 00:32:23.329 --> 00:32:26.490 the southern Rockies. I'm going to move on wolf 00:32:26.490 --> 00:32:30.210 recovery to western Colorado otherwise. And once 00:32:30.210 --> 00:32:35.250 I succeed, that great, big, wonderful patch of 00:32:35.250 --> 00:32:37.750 habitat that is western Colorado, that is God's 00:32:37.750 --> 00:32:40.890 gift to gray wolves, once that patch of habitat, 00:32:41.089 --> 00:32:44.410 which is currently unoccupied, once it's occupied 00:32:44.410 --> 00:32:47.970 by northern gray wolves, it will be lost to the 00:32:47.970 --> 00:32:50.720 Mexican wolf. because any Mexican wolf that wanders 00:32:50.720 --> 00:32:53.640 into that country, into western Colorado that 00:32:53.640 --> 00:32:57.000 now supports 125 gray wolves from Montana, let's 00:32:57.000 --> 00:32:59.440 say, a Mexican wolf wanders into that country, 00:32:59.980 --> 00:33:03.019 it's simply going to be lost in the genetic shuffle 00:33:03.019 --> 00:33:09.039 of breeding. And so you've set your course on 00:33:09.039 --> 00:33:12.259 the southern option. I tried and I tried for 00:33:12.259 --> 00:33:14.339 over 20 years to get you to recognize the value 00:33:14.339 --> 00:33:16.240 of the northern option. You haven't done it. 00:33:16.599 --> 00:33:18.759 And that's when we launched, Team Turner launched 00:33:18.759 --> 00:33:22.759 the massive effort to secure a mandate for restoring 00:33:22.759 --> 00:33:24.960 a population to western Colorado that would almost 00:33:24.960 --> 00:33:27.440 surely, and now we know for sure does, focuses 00:33:27.440 --> 00:33:30.319 on a northern type. Animals coming out of Oregon 00:33:30.319 --> 00:33:32.880 or Washington or Montana, not Mexican wolves 00:33:32.880 --> 00:33:36.460 coming out of captivity. Right. Which is a perfect 00:33:36.460 --> 00:33:39.059 transition to now talk about the Colorado situation? 00:33:39.059 --> 00:33:42.559 The only thing I will add here is that it sounds 00:33:42.559 --> 00:33:47.140 like the Mexican gray wolf Effort could could 00:33:47.140 --> 00:33:50.059 be successful if those areas had been opened 00:33:50.059 --> 00:33:53.160 up Sooner or if they were opened up to Mexican 00:33:53.160 --> 00:33:55.279 gray wolves allowed them to migrate up there 00:33:55.279 --> 00:33:59.359 on their own Yeah, or you reintroduce them before 00:33:59.359 --> 00:34:04.720 the Colorado wolves And for 20 years, that was 00:34:04.720 --> 00:34:08.019 my play. I kept saying the best way to populate 00:34:08.019 --> 00:34:11.340 Colorado with wolves and the Grand Canyon ecoregion 00:34:11.340 --> 00:34:13.340 of Arizona and Utah would be the United States 00:34:13.340 --> 00:34:16.000 Fish and Wildlife Service discharging their duties 00:34:16.000 --> 00:34:18.579 under the Endangered Species Act on behalf of 00:34:18.579 --> 00:34:20.940 Canis lupus balea. That was the 20 -year play 00:34:20.940 --> 00:34:23.739 the feds chose otherwise. I will say there is 00:34:23.739 --> 00:34:26.039 a Hail Mary for the Mexican wolf. It doesn't 00:34:26.039 --> 00:34:28.059 touch on northern New Mexico and southern Colorado. 00:34:28.489 --> 00:34:31.130 That country, I think, is lost to Balei now. 00:34:31.469 --> 00:34:34.110 Here's the Hail Mary for Balei. The Hail Mary 00:34:34.110 --> 00:34:37.510 is the Grand Canyon ecoregion of northern Arizona 00:34:37.510 --> 00:34:41.309 and southern Utah. That is still unoccupied. 00:34:41.829 --> 00:34:44.670 It is ideally suited for the Mexican gray wolf. 00:34:45.150 --> 00:34:47.730 If the feds could start to ignore that I -40 00:34:47.730 --> 00:34:50.289 boundary, that makes no sense anyway. If the 00:34:50.289 --> 00:34:52.869 feds were to move reintroductions to the Grand 00:34:52.869 --> 00:34:55.309 Canyon National Park, for example, the feds could 00:34:55.309 --> 00:34:58.940 claim The wonderful patch of habitat that is 00:34:58.940 --> 00:35:01.539 the Grand Canyon ecoregion they could claim that 00:35:01.539 --> 00:35:04.480 for Bailey I and it is good enough ed I bet you 00:35:04.480 --> 00:35:06.559 a nickel I could run the science that would say 00:35:06.559 --> 00:35:09.260 I can have a big enough Mexican wolf population 00:35:09.260 --> 00:35:12.039 in the Grand Canyon ecoregion and a big enough 00:35:12.039 --> 00:35:14.400 Mexican wolf population down in southwestern 00:35:14.400 --> 00:35:17.860 Arizona and southeastern to Mexico southwestern 00:35:17.860 --> 00:35:19.719 to Mexico and southeastern Arizona the border 00:35:19.719 --> 00:35:22.460 country between those two areas I would have 00:35:22.460 --> 00:35:26.809 enough Mexican wolves in the US To satisfy the 00:35:26.809 --> 00:35:30.650 recovery plan to recover. Yeah, the Grand Canyon 00:35:30.650 --> 00:35:35.269 eco region is still open to Bailey I and it would 00:35:35.269 --> 00:35:38.989 represent a Hail Mary Interesting. Okay. Well, 00:35:38.989 --> 00:35:42.090 hopefully somebody from people that are listening 00:35:42.090 --> 00:35:44.550 aren't thinking about it Not in any functional 00:35:44.550 --> 00:35:47.510 way the state of Arizona is keenly opposed to 00:35:47.510 --> 00:35:50.070 the idea the state of Utah is keenly opposed 00:35:50.070 --> 00:35:53.250 to the idea I say to people that are impressed 00:35:53.250 --> 00:35:56.889 by keen opposition by state agencies, if it took 00:35:56.889 --> 00:35:59.750 state support for the Fish and Wildlife Service 00:35:59.750 --> 00:36:02.710 to advance wolf recovery, I would still be sitting 00:36:02.710 --> 00:36:05.869 on a dock in Maneo, North Carolina, waiting to 00:36:05.869 --> 00:36:08.949 let the first red wolf go. Yes, you would. There's 00:36:08.949 --> 00:36:12.400 no question about that, for sure. So now, perfect 00:36:12.400 --> 00:36:15.139 transition to talk about Colorado, because Colorado 00:36:15.139 --> 00:36:17.659 reintroduction is recent, and you played a major 00:36:17.659 --> 00:36:21.099 role in that. Can you explain how the Colorado 00:36:21.099 --> 00:36:23.400 reintroduction is very different from what happened 00:36:23.400 --> 00:36:27.940 up in Yellowstone? Well, the mechanics are very 00:36:27.940 --> 00:36:29.679 similar to what happened. Yeah, mechanics, but 00:36:29.679 --> 00:36:31.699 the politics of it and the way it came about, 00:36:32.079 --> 00:36:35.280 right? Yeah, and of course, folks, all of the 00:36:35.280 --> 00:36:37.079 Wolf reintroductions that have been done to date, 00:36:37.320 --> 00:36:39.630 except in Colorado, were done by the United States 00:36:39.630 --> 00:36:42.090 Fish and Wildlife Service under their authorities 00:36:42.090 --> 00:36:44.949 by the Endangered Species Act. When the Fish 00:36:44.949 --> 00:36:46.849 and Wildlife Service decided to push the Mexican 00:36:46.849 --> 00:36:50.489 Wolf South, the agency was gone. They weren't 00:36:50.489 --> 00:36:52.210 interested in Colorado. So I said to myself, 00:36:52.369 --> 00:36:53.670 okay, how else are we going to get this done? 00:36:54.460 --> 00:36:56.760 I knew I could have done it illegally. Shoot, 00:36:56.800 --> 00:36:58.699 Ed, you and I could catch enough wolves in Montana 00:36:58.699 --> 00:37:00.260 and drag them down to Colorado and go and get 00:37:00.260 --> 00:37:02.739 the job done. Well, hey, and you know, we got 00:37:02.739 --> 00:37:05.099 to stop there because wolves were coming down 00:37:05.099 --> 00:37:07.579 from Wyoming into Colorado. Every once in a while, 00:37:07.699 --> 00:37:10.159 there'd be wolves turning up. When I knew the 00:37:10.159 --> 00:37:13.300 Mexican wolf was not going to be viable for Colorado, 00:37:13.659 --> 00:37:15.440 I thought, well, we knew it illegally, but I 00:37:15.440 --> 00:37:17.340 didn't want to go to jail. So we set the illegal 00:37:17.340 --> 00:37:19.920 idea aside. You could imagine gray wolves doing 00:37:19.920 --> 00:37:24.219 it on their own. But Wyoming... passed a law 00:37:24.219 --> 00:37:27.159 that basically said the gray wolf is vermin across 00:37:27.159 --> 00:37:30.219 about 85 % of the state. And so consequently 00:37:30.219 --> 00:37:32.500 any wolf that wants to leave the northwestern 00:37:32.500 --> 00:37:35.280 corner of Wyoming has to walk through this extensive 00:37:35.280 --> 00:37:37.619 killing field to get to Colorado. When you take 00:37:37.619 --> 00:37:40.179 a look at the science of connectivity, there's 00:37:40.179 --> 00:37:42.260 just very, very little chance that enough gray 00:37:42.260 --> 00:37:44.820 wolves would make that walk to actually give 00:37:44.820 --> 00:37:49.099 rise to a population. So let's set aside colonization 00:37:49.099 --> 00:37:51.420 by by wolves moving on their own. So you're not 00:37:51.420 --> 00:37:53.099 going to do it illegally. Wolves aren't going 00:37:53.099 --> 00:37:54.960 to do it on their own. Feds aren't coming with 00:37:54.960 --> 00:37:57.679 the Mexican wolf. We had a fourth option. There's 00:37:57.679 --> 00:38:00.880 one last option, and it speaks to the common 00:38:00.880 --> 00:38:03.820 sense aspect of the Endangered Species Act, which 00:38:03.820 --> 00:38:07.280 simply states that when a state government is 00:38:07.280 --> 00:38:09.780 inclined to discharge the duties of the Endangered 00:38:09.780 --> 00:38:11.659 Species Act, the United States Fish and Wildlife 00:38:11.659 --> 00:38:16.110 Service will enable that. Ah, okay, and there's 00:38:16.110 --> 00:38:19.110 a lot to be said for the states rising up and 00:38:19.110 --> 00:38:21.190 taking care of imperiled species. So I think, 00:38:21.289 --> 00:38:24.030 you know, the gray wolf is protected under federal 00:38:24.030 --> 00:38:26.389 law, but if the state of Colorado is willing 00:38:26.389 --> 00:38:28.309 to stand up and say, hey, we'll do the hard work, 00:38:28.670 --> 00:38:31.070 I could fully expect the United States Fish and 00:38:31.070 --> 00:38:32.889 Wildlife Service to say, hey, thank you. For 00:38:32.889 --> 00:38:34.929 God sakes, we appreciate that you're going to 00:38:34.929 --> 00:38:37.610 carry the water now. Here's the permit. Off you 00:38:37.610 --> 00:38:41.949 go. Okay. Right. But the fact is, Ed, wolf recovery 00:38:41.949 --> 00:38:46.460 is so hard, No state is going to willingly jump 00:38:46.460 --> 00:38:48.840 into the deep end of the wolf recovery pool. 00:38:48.840 --> 00:38:51.760 You got a pressure Okay, you say to yourself. 00:38:51.880 --> 00:38:56.119 Well, how can you push a state government? Into 00:38:56.119 --> 00:38:58.039 the deep end of the pool. Well, you know how 00:38:58.039 --> 00:39:00.679 you do that Ed You get the bonus to rise up and 00:39:00.679 --> 00:39:04.679 say do this you get the real bosses To say to 00:39:04.679 --> 00:39:07.920 their employees like a governor and like a director 00:39:07.920 --> 00:39:12.179 of Colorado Parks and Wildlife Ye shall use reintroductions 00:39:12.460 --> 00:39:15.679 to restore a self -sustaining population of gray 00:39:15.679 --> 00:39:19.900 wolves to western Colorado. So, I built out, 00:39:20.340 --> 00:39:24.300 over the course of many, many, many, many years, 00:39:24.960 --> 00:39:29.340 I built out a plan to exercise direct democracy 00:39:29.340 --> 00:39:33.519 as the means for securing a lawful mandate to 00:39:33.519 --> 00:39:36.659 use reintroductions to restore gray wolves to 00:39:36.659 --> 00:39:40.699 western Colorado. We pushed that across many 00:39:40.699 --> 00:39:44.320 years. It was ultimately decided in November 00:39:44.320 --> 00:39:48.679 of 2020 when the voters of Colorado had in front 00:39:48.679 --> 00:39:53.880 of them Proposition 114 and Proposition 114 was 00:39:53.880 --> 00:39:58.119 simple. It basically said if you aspire For the 00:39:58.119 --> 00:40:01.820 state of Colorado to remain wolfless vote no 00:40:01.820 --> 00:40:06.280 on 114 if you aspire For the state of Colorado 00:40:06.280 --> 00:40:10.250 to support gray wolves vote. Yes Hmm a majority 00:40:10.250 --> 00:40:14.269 of the voters in November 2020 voted. Yes And 00:40:14.269 --> 00:40:18.329 that fixed one for proposition 114 as now a state 00:40:18.329 --> 00:40:23.550 law. It is colorado revised statute 33 -2 -105 00:40:23.550 --> 00:40:27.510 .8 Call it the wolf restoration law and it says 00:40:27.510 --> 00:40:30.289 colorado parks and wildlife Under the authority 00:40:30.289 --> 00:40:34.050 of the wildlife commission will use reintroductions 00:40:34.050 --> 00:40:37.070 To restore a population that is self -sustaining 00:40:37.070 --> 00:40:40.809 to western colorado Once that became law, the 00:40:40.809 --> 00:40:42.929 feds did exactly what we'd expect the feds to 00:40:42.929 --> 00:40:45.309 do. They worked with the state to make sure the 00:40:45.309 --> 00:40:48.130 administrative process was lawful. They issued 00:40:48.130 --> 00:40:50.769 a permit. The first reintroductions began in 00:40:50.769 --> 00:40:55.469 December of 2023. Right now in Colorado, there 00:40:55.469 --> 00:41:00.969 are probably 30 adult -sized gray wolves in the 00:41:00.969 --> 00:41:04.269 state. I would guess those 30 are probably distributed 00:41:04.269 --> 00:41:07.429 in the three or four or five... packs, families 00:41:07.429 --> 00:41:10.110 that are capable of breeding. If I'm right, there's 00:41:10.110 --> 00:41:12.949 about 30 adults on the ground in Colorado, given 00:41:12.949 --> 00:41:15.570 that we're almost into May. There's a bunch of 00:41:15.570 --> 00:41:17.090 puppies that have probably been born. There might 00:41:17.090 --> 00:41:19.829 be another 15 or 20 puppies on the ground. You 00:41:19.829 --> 00:41:23.170 might have 50 or 55 gray wolves on the ground 00:41:23.170 --> 00:41:26.989 in Colorado as we speak as a consequence of the 00:41:26.989 --> 00:41:30.769 successful exercise of direct democracy to establish 00:41:30.769 --> 00:41:35.139 a restoration mandate. What do you think sometimes 00:41:35.139 --> 00:41:37.400 the Fish and Wildlife Service would come under 00:41:37.400 --> 00:41:42.539 criticism? for Well, there would be a call for 00:41:42.539 --> 00:41:44.619 the Fish and Wildlife Service to make its decisions 00:41:44.619 --> 00:41:49.380 based on science not politics, right? So I can't 00:41:49.380 --> 00:41:53.019 have What's the difference and now Colorado is 00:41:53.019 --> 00:41:56.380 entered bringing back wolves based on? Arguably, 00:41:56.539 --> 00:41:59.000 some people will say politics. All the liberals 00:41:59.000 --> 00:42:01.159 in Colorado wanted wolves and pushed them on 00:42:01.159 --> 00:42:03.059 everybody else. That's not relying on science. 00:42:03.239 --> 00:42:06.559 That's relying on politics. What's the response 00:42:06.559 --> 00:42:10.039 to that? Well, first and foremost, life is politics, 00:42:10.199 --> 00:42:13.880 Ed. You know that. And we should all admit that 00:42:13.880 --> 00:42:17.969 none of this takes place. Especially the endangered 00:42:17.969 --> 00:42:19.769 species work that we've talked about none of 00:42:19.769 --> 00:42:21.570 it takes place without the endangered species 00:42:21.570 --> 00:42:24.630 act. It's a law It's a law that came about because 00:42:24.630 --> 00:42:27.329 of a political process and you and I both know 00:42:27.329 --> 00:42:30.110 there is no Fish and Wildlife Management in the 00:42:30.110 --> 00:42:33.250 United States absent laws that are a consequence 00:42:33.250 --> 00:42:36.010 of politics. This is all invested against politics. 00:42:36.550 --> 00:42:38.769 Politics are a way for a great nation like ours 00:42:38.769 --> 00:42:41.289 to move forward together. It doesn't mean that 00:42:41.289 --> 00:42:43.769 everybody's satisfied, but if somebody can come 00:42:43.769 --> 00:42:45.869 up with a better system than what we've got, 00:42:46.130 --> 00:42:48.269 it may be a shitty system. I just believe it's 00:42:48.269 --> 00:42:51.590 the best in the world. I agree. Cry me a river, 00:42:51.829 --> 00:42:54.110 then oh my lord, ballot box biology bullshit. 00:42:54.550 --> 00:42:58.099 And now on a more technical note. And I'll debate 00:42:58.099 --> 00:43:03.119 this anytime, anywhere, anybody. The notion of 00:43:03.119 --> 00:43:06.980 a ballot box, biology being exercised in Colorado. 00:43:08.239 --> 00:43:11.780 When you take a fair look at Proposition 114, 00:43:12.539 --> 00:43:16.880 it was really largely silent on technical aspects 00:43:16.880 --> 00:43:20.639 of restoration via reintroductions. It did say 00:43:20.639 --> 00:43:24.599 things like ranchers will be respected. It did 00:43:24.599 --> 00:43:26.880 say things like you're going to use reintroductions. 00:43:27.260 --> 00:43:29.860 It did say range reductions have to be done west 00:43:29.860 --> 00:43:32.460 of the Continental Divide But you know shit man, 00:43:32.539 --> 00:43:34.420 Colorado is huge west of the Continental Divide 00:43:34.420 --> 00:43:37.320 sure and it said the Commission has to develop 00:43:37.320 --> 00:43:41.860 criteria for success Okay, but beyond those four 00:43:41.860 --> 00:43:45.500 general points The specifics of how to get from 00:43:45.500 --> 00:43:47.440 where we were to where the law said you needed 00:43:47.440 --> 00:43:50.170 to be those were all left up to the state game 00:43:50.170 --> 00:43:53.030 agency to deal with the technical aspects. I 00:43:53.030 --> 00:43:55.130 believe if you take a fair look at Proposition 00:43:55.130 --> 00:44:00.429 114, it is a nice blending of the expectation 00:44:00.429 --> 00:44:04.929 that technical experts, biologists, would decide 00:44:04.929 --> 00:44:07.309 on technical matters related to wolf restoration 00:44:07.309 --> 00:44:11.090 via reintroduction. So it's a nice embrace of 00:44:11.090 --> 00:44:14.530 science and technical expertise. At the same 00:44:14.530 --> 00:44:19.369 time, it's a nice embrace of a decided slice 00:44:19.369 --> 00:44:23.809 of Americana. That being the power of electoral 00:44:23.809 --> 00:44:27.949 politics. One person, one vote. We come together, 00:44:28.510 --> 00:44:32.710 we make a decision, and off we go. It's a nice 00:44:32.710 --> 00:44:36.170 blending. Now, beyond that, people say, well, 00:44:36.369 --> 00:44:38.829 it's still ballot box biology. I would say to 00:44:38.829 --> 00:44:42.269 them, beyond that, Colorado revised statute 33 00:44:42.269 --> 00:44:48.219 -2 -105 .5. It was passed years earlier that 00:44:48.219 --> 00:44:53.280 says, well gee whiz Ed, any reintroduction of 00:44:53.280 --> 00:44:56.420 a federally listed species either threatened 00:44:56.420 --> 00:44:58.760 or endangered under the Endangered Species Act, 00:44:59.179 --> 00:45:02.000 any reintroduction of a federally listed species 00:45:02.000 --> 00:45:05.260 in Colorado has to first be approved by the state 00:45:05.260 --> 00:45:07.619 legislature. Okay, wait a minute, wait a minute. 00:45:08.059 --> 00:45:09.820 Everybody that sits in the state legislature 00:45:09.820 --> 00:45:13.699 is elected against a ballot. Right and very few 00:45:13.699 --> 00:45:16.219 biologists serve in state legislatures so I could 00:45:16.219 --> 00:45:18.719 make the case that hang on hang on hang on 33 00:45:18.719 --> 00:45:23.500 -2 -105 .5 ensured that Endangered species work 00:45:23.500 --> 00:45:25.940 in Colorado involving federally listed species 00:45:25.940 --> 00:45:28.039 and reintroduction are all done at the ballot 00:45:28.039 --> 00:45:31.400 box, right? They're all decided by elected officials. 00:45:31.400 --> 00:45:34.639 Yes, there you go. I will debate anybody anytime 00:45:34.639 --> 00:45:38.380 anywhere On the wisdom of proposition 114 as 00:45:38.380 --> 00:45:41.949 a way to move the notion of wolf restoration 00:45:41.949 --> 00:45:45.030 in Colorado to a decision point. Coloradans could 00:45:45.030 --> 00:45:48.809 have said in the majority no. True. Got it. They 00:45:48.809 --> 00:45:51.190 didn't say that, Ed. They said yes in the majority. 00:45:51.789 --> 00:45:54.710 That's true. And, you know, all those people 00:45:54.710 --> 00:45:56.710 that, you know, I don't even want to bring this 00:45:56.710 --> 00:45:58.750 up because it's not even worth responding to, 00:45:58.769 --> 00:46:00.929 so don't respond, but I'm going to imagine it 00:46:00.929 --> 00:46:02.590 anyway. You always see on Facebook, you know, 00:46:02.670 --> 00:46:03.969 all the people claiming, well, why don't you 00:46:03.969 --> 00:46:06.130 put the wolves in Denver? That's such a cliché, 00:46:06.130 --> 00:46:09.050 stupid thing to say. But don't even answer. It's 00:46:09.050 --> 00:46:10.989 just such a stupid thing to say. I don't think 00:46:10.989 --> 00:46:12.929 we need to respond to. Now, wait a minute, wait 00:46:12.929 --> 00:46:14.429 a minute, wait a minute. You want us to move 00:46:14.429 --> 00:46:16.329 against the best available science? We understand 00:46:16.329 --> 00:46:20.769 gray wolves well. The habitat of Denver is not 00:46:20.769 --> 00:46:23.800 suitable. It's not too many roads too many people 00:46:23.800 --> 00:46:29.519 not enough prey I Know it's such a cliche stupid 00:46:29.519 --> 00:46:31.840 thing to say it doesn't make any sense But on 00:46:31.840 --> 00:46:34.079 that note why and I know we're you're running 00:46:34.079 --> 00:46:36.739 out of time here But why what is it about Colorado 00:46:36.739 --> 00:46:40.139 that makes it a suitable place? to expect success. 00:46:41.000 --> 00:46:44.760 So I said earlier, it's probably God's gift to 00:46:44.760 --> 00:46:48.860 gray wolves. It is, forget for a moment that 00:46:48.860 --> 00:46:51.360 there might be 30 adult sized wolves on the ground 00:46:51.360 --> 00:46:54.719 in Colorado and 10, 15, 20 puppies, and they'd 00:46:54.719 --> 00:46:57.219 be little guys, you know, they'd be four days 00:46:57.219 --> 00:46:59.739 old or some day going thing. Forget that. Let's 00:46:59.739 --> 00:47:03.880 assume it's fully unoccupied. Western Colorado 00:47:03.880 --> 00:47:06.039 represents without doubt the best unoccupied 00:47:06.039 --> 00:47:08.940 wolf habitat in the world. Wow. As a matter of 00:47:08.940 --> 00:47:11.780 fact, I think I could make the case that it's 00:47:11.780 --> 00:47:14.260 the best wolf habitat in the world occupied or 00:47:14.260 --> 00:47:16.840 unoccupied. And you go, well gee, Mike, how is 00:47:16.840 --> 00:47:18.820 that the case? Well, here's how you can look 00:47:18.820 --> 00:47:26.039 at it. Western Colorado presents gray wolves 00:47:26.039 --> 00:47:31.320 a very, very favorable prey biomass. And I said 00:47:31.320 --> 00:47:34.539 earlier, if human -caused mortality is low for 00:47:34.539 --> 00:47:37.039 gray wolves, Gray wolf population dynamics are 00:47:37.039 --> 00:47:41.719 decided by food, prey biomass. Colorado supports 00:47:41.719 --> 00:47:46.960 a ridiculous number of deer and elk. About a 00:47:46.960 --> 00:47:50.820 long -term average for elk would be 200 ,000. 00:47:51.219 --> 00:47:53.960 A long -term average for deer would be 400 ,000. 00:47:55.019 --> 00:47:59.079 So there's this large number, large numbers of 00:47:59.079 --> 00:48:02.179 deer and elk. Hold that thought. Then you wonder 00:48:02.179 --> 00:48:06.039 about patterns of land ownership. Is there federal 00:48:06.039 --> 00:48:09.500 public land that's managed for multiple use purposes 00:48:09.500 --> 00:48:12.500 against which wildlife, things like gray wolves, 00:48:12.639 --> 00:48:16.380 would receive reasonable consideration? Over 00:48:16.380 --> 00:48:21.000 20 million acres of federal public lands in western 00:48:21.000 --> 00:48:24.519 Colorado. So let's compare those two aspects, 00:48:25.039 --> 00:48:28.840 prey and land ownership, to the Greater Yellowstone 00:48:28.840 --> 00:48:31.559 Ecosystem. Greater Yellowstone Ecosystem is the 00:48:31.559 --> 00:48:33.800 largest assemblage of conservation lands in the 00:48:33.800 --> 00:48:36.380 temperate world. The Greater Yellowstone Ecosystem, 00:48:36.420 --> 00:48:38.579 let's be generous and say it includes 15 million 00:48:38.579 --> 00:48:41.159 acres of federal public lands or thereabouts. 00:48:41.539 --> 00:48:43.719 The heart and soul of the GYE, the Greater Yellowstone 00:48:43.719 --> 00:48:45.840 Ecosystem, would be Yellowstone National Park 00:48:45.840 --> 00:48:48.239 at 2 .2 million acres. Okay, great. Just wonderful 00:48:48.239 --> 00:48:51.739 patch of opportunity. Right. So with a favorable 00:48:51.739 --> 00:48:54.400 pattern of land ownership. And the GYE right 00:48:54.400 --> 00:48:56.460 now as a reference point for everybody supports 00:48:56.460 --> 00:48:59.420 about 350 to 500 gray wolves. Cool. Right. That's 00:48:59.420 --> 00:49:01.239 a good number. That's cool. That's great. Okay. 00:49:01.780 --> 00:49:04.380 Favorable pattern of land ownership. The GYE 00:49:04.719 --> 00:49:08.639 Probably supports Three four hundred thousand 00:49:08.639 --> 00:49:12.920 deer and elk Okay, let's say it's not quite half 00:49:12.920 --> 00:49:16.480 of what Western Colorado has Western color has 00:49:16.480 --> 00:49:18.699 probably twice as much deer and elk twice as 00:49:18.699 --> 00:49:22.219 many deer and elk. I'm sorry more federal public 00:49:22.219 --> 00:49:26.000 lands And we know the GYE as the comparison supports 00:49:26.000 --> 00:49:27.940 three hundred fifty to five hundred gray wolves 00:49:27.940 --> 00:49:30.840 Western Colorado can put those numbers on the 00:49:30.840 --> 00:49:34.269 board if not more it is this wonderful opportunity 00:49:34.269 --> 00:49:38.050 of land ownership and prey abundance that is 00:49:38.050 --> 00:49:40.590 ideally suited for gray wolves, and absent those 00:49:40.590 --> 00:49:42.610 30 adults on the ground and a handful of puppies, 00:49:43.269 --> 00:49:46.670 it's wolf -less. From the perspective of a restoration 00:49:46.670 --> 00:49:50.590 ecologist like myself, beyond the habitat models 00:49:50.590 --> 00:49:54.650 telling me unequivocally it's supremely suitable 00:49:54.650 --> 00:50:02.000 habitat, beyond that, it's location. in the continent 00:50:02.000 --> 00:50:05.900 really matters. Here's where that plays. Gray 00:50:05.900 --> 00:50:08.639 wolves can be found from northwestern Montana 00:50:08.639 --> 00:50:11.440 and northwestern Wyoming, Yellowstone, all the 00:50:11.440 --> 00:50:14.619 way north unbroken into the high arctic of Canada. 00:50:15.119 --> 00:50:17.480 This extensive population of gray wolves that 00:50:17.480 --> 00:50:20.340 go all the way high arctic. And then if you crawl 00:50:20.340 --> 00:50:23.780 down into the border country of southwestern 00:50:23.780 --> 00:50:25.719 New Mexico and southeastern Arizona, you can 00:50:25.719 --> 00:50:28.380 bump into 300 Mexican gray wolves. That's good, 00:50:28.380 --> 00:50:31.190 that's good. They're there because they're largely 00:50:31.190 --> 00:50:32.829 fed by the Fish and Wildlife Service. But nonetheless, 00:50:32.869 --> 00:50:34.610 let's give the wolves the benefit. You got 300 00:50:34.610 --> 00:50:36.829 down there in the border country. Yeah, 300 in 00:50:36.829 --> 00:50:39.550 the border country to the south. Thousands going 00:50:39.550 --> 00:50:42.010 up to the high Arctic. And you got this great 00:50:42.010 --> 00:50:45.289 big gap in the middle. Yeah, the great big gap 00:50:45.289 --> 00:50:48.510 in the middle is Western Colorado. Interesting. 00:50:48.570 --> 00:50:51.090 You can establish a population of gray wolves 00:50:51.090 --> 00:50:54.409 in Western Colorado. It will serve, that population 00:50:54.409 --> 00:50:57.010 will serve as the archstone. connecting Gray 00:50:57.010 --> 00:50:58.730 -Wilson and the Arctic all the way to the Mexican 00:50:58.730 --> 00:51:01.469 border. Ed, there is no other place in the world 00:51:01.469 --> 00:51:04.030 where you can imagine completion of the restoration 00:51:04.030 --> 00:51:07.090 of a large, endangered, much maligned carnivore 00:51:07.090 --> 00:51:11.170 across the continent. That is restoration magic 00:51:11.170 --> 00:51:14.349 of the finest kind. The missing piece of the 00:51:14.349 --> 00:51:18.510 puzzle. Indeed. Fantastic. Indeed. Let me ask 00:51:18.510 --> 00:51:20.530 you this. This will be my last question for you. 00:51:21.349 --> 00:51:23.670 What's the one thing you would want all Americans 00:51:23.670 --> 00:51:26.650 to know about wolf reintroductions and the benefit 00:51:26.650 --> 00:51:34.230 of having wild wolves thriving in the US? And 00:51:34.230 --> 00:51:36.130 that's a hard one, because so many Americans 00:51:36.130 --> 00:51:37.989 live in different places. As a matter of fact, 00:51:39.030 --> 00:51:43.210 this Friday, my youngest daughter is a junior 00:51:43.210 --> 00:51:45.289 at Bozeman High School, and she's a member of 00:51:45.289 --> 00:51:48.090 the Human Rights Club. And I get to go visit 00:51:48.090 --> 00:51:51.030 with the Human Rights Club. this Friday and speak 00:51:51.030 --> 00:51:53.650 about endangered species work and why does it 00:51:53.650 --> 00:51:56.429 matter and the sixth great extinction crisis. 00:51:57.090 --> 00:52:01.929 But why does wolf restoration matter? It's a 00:52:01.929 --> 00:52:06.250 dramatic illustration that we can right or wrong. 00:52:07.610 --> 00:52:10.429 We don't have to live in an impoverished world, 00:52:10.829 --> 00:52:13.650 impoverished from a biological perspective. We 00:52:13.650 --> 00:52:17.039 can restore imperiled species on purpose. We 00:52:17.039 --> 00:52:19.860 can we can celebrate the wondrous diversity of 00:52:19.860 --> 00:52:22.980 life that still surrounds us We can celebrate 00:52:22.980 --> 00:52:26.099 it through active management of populations that 00:52:26.099 --> 00:52:28.840 occur on their own We can celebrate it through 00:52:28.840 --> 00:52:31.099 purposeful reintroductions to restore populations 00:52:31.099 --> 00:52:34.000 that will come to persist on their own It is 00:52:34.000 --> 00:52:36.360 a dramatic example that we can write a wrong 00:52:36.360 --> 00:52:38.980 and and there's no way if you're willing to be 00:52:38.980 --> 00:52:42.239 objective There's there's no way you can argue 00:52:42.239 --> 00:52:47.960 That it was right to decimate gray wolves There's 00:52:47.960 --> 00:52:51.920 just there's there's no math That you can assemble 00:52:51.920 --> 00:52:55.059 that would lead to that answer It doesn't mean 00:52:55.059 --> 00:52:56.699 that you don't kill gray wolves on occasion. 00:52:56.719 --> 00:52:58.780 You can kill them because they're causing a problem 00:52:58.780 --> 00:53:00.960 You can kill them because you want to hang the 00:53:00.960 --> 00:53:05.179 firm on on the wall But there's no math that 00:53:05.179 --> 00:53:08.400 would say needless killing is justified Gray 00:53:08.400 --> 00:53:11.179 wolves got caught up in this this embrace of 00:53:11.179 --> 00:53:14.739 manifest destiny When white folks showed up from 00:53:14.739 --> 00:53:17.800 Europe so long ago, they sat out across this 00:53:17.800 --> 00:53:22.260 great country to tame the wilderness. And they 00:53:22.260 --> 00:53:25.039 whipped Native Americans, they whipped American 00:53:25.039 --> 00:53:28.400 planes bison, they whipped gray wolves, they 00:53:28.400 --> 00:53:31.539 subdued the wild aspects of much of this country 00:53:31.539 --> 00:53:35.280 to make room for their European perspective. 00:53:36.139 --> 00:53:40.190 And we've been living with that. That that ugly 00:53:40.190 --> 00:53:44.349 violent history ever since okay fine if You're 00:53:44.349 --> 00:53:46.389 willing to embrace that as a reasonable portrayal 00:53:46.389 --> 00:53:49.630 of history. It doesn't have to be our future, 00:53:49.630 --> 00:53:54.670 right? We can restore nature wolf reintroductions 00:53:54.670 --> 00:53:58.269 Makes clear that even species that get people 00:53:58.269 --> 00:54:01.429 Fired up good and bad even people that think 00:54:01.429 --> 00:54:03.789 gray wolves are angelic or people that think 00:54:03.789 --> 00:54:07.010 gray wolves are devilish We can still go forward 00:54:07.289 --> 00:54:10.349 and celebrate the power of restoration, we can 00:54:10.349 --> 00:54:13.789 right a wrong. That's the story. That's the punchline 00:54:13.789 --> 00:54:18.710 of Wolf Recovery. Mike Phillips, thank you so 00:54:18.710 --> 00:54:20.809 much. That is fantastic. I really appreciate 00:54:20.809 --> 00:54:22.809 you being on the show. This has been a real honor 00:54:22.809 --> 00:54:25.250 for me. I could ask you more questions all day, 00:54:25.250 --> 00:54:27.030 but I do want to be respectful of your time. 00:54:27.409 --> 00:54:29.230 Thank you very much for being on the show. It's 00:54:29.230 --> 00:54:30.829 going to make a big difference to this season. 00:54:31.429 --> 00:54:33.429 Ed, thank you. My honor, pal. Thank you. Hey, 00:54:33.610 --> 00:54:36.739 thank you. Nature's Secret Service is written 00:54:36.739 --> 00:54:39.619 and produced by me, Ed Newcomer, and is co -produced 00:54:39.619 --> 00:54:43.159 by the DHTV team here at California State University, 00:54:43.340 --> 00:54:45.719 Dominguez Hills. Follow us on social media and 00:54:45.719 --> 00:54:48.000 connect with us online at naturessecretservice 00:54:48.000 --> 00:54:48.639 .com