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Okay people, listen up. Here we go. This is Nature's
Secret Service, the podcast that puts you in
the room with the men and women of wildlife law
enforcement. I'm your host, Ed Newcomer. And
last week, we talked with Mike Phillips, former
head of Wolf Reintroduction in the Greater Yellowstone
Area. We broke that conversation into two parts.
this week we'll be rejoining that conversation
with Mike to talk about everything from red wolves
to Mexican gray wolves to the recent reintroduction
of wolves in Colorado. Let's rejoin that conversation
now. Welcome back Mike. Thank you for being on
two episodes of my podcast We talked last time
about your experience with reintroducing wolves
to Yellowstone But your reintroduction experience
really goes back to the red wolves of the southeastern
us Which I think is a lot of people who are interested
in wolves aren't very familiar with red wolves
Can you talk about red wolves and their biology
compared a little bit to the to the gray wolves?
And and how did that reintroduction effort come
about and how did you get involved in that? Yeah,
you bet it. Thank you red wolves Technically
are known as canis rufus. Mm -hmm gray wolves.
Technically are known as canis lupus, right there
variations on this theme of a big canid running
around the woods and being very very social and
living on things bigger than itself you want
to know a simple differentiation between wolves
and coyotes on Average wolves are hardwired to
live on things bigger than themselves. It doesn't
mean that a wolf on occasion won't kill a rabbit
But they are living on things bigger than themselves,
deer and elk, for example. In contrast, coyotes
typically are hardwired to live on things smaller
than themselves. Doesn't mean that a coyote won't
kill a deer on occasion. It does mean that their
food habits drift in the direction of things
that are smaller. Red wolves were the wolf of
the southeastern United States. They go way back
in time. They are simply the wolf of the southeast.
They're a little bit smaller. A male red wolf
ought to weigh 60 to 70 pounds. Females got to
weigh 50 to 60. And their genetic makeup is very,
very similar to gray wolves. They are social.
But in the southeast, you could expect pack size
to be probably four or five or six. And when
you push into the gray wolf country, northern
Minnesota and beyond, you're looking at pack
size that's going to be six, seven, eight or
more. So red wolves are the wolf of the southeast.
Otherwise, very, very similar in terms of the
ecology. They make extensive use of white tilled
deer. They make extensive use of of raccoons
and rabbits. They were reintroduced to the Alligator
River National Wildlife Refuge back in the mid
1980s. I was blessed to run that project as all
part of a recovery program. The program said
we need some red wolves in captivity to ensure
the persistence of the species. The red wolf
was declared extinct in the wild I want to say
in the early 1980s. And before the extinction
was claimed, some friends of mine went out and
captured the last few free -ranging red wolves
in Texas and Louisiana, and they established
a captive breeding program. And so we have these
good red wolves in captivity that need to be
released to the wild. The Endangered Species
Act is all about establishing wild populations.
Animals in captivity can be a great assist, but
the benchmark of success for the Endangered Species
Act is free -ranging animals that can be fairly
considered wild. I was going to say, funny, fun
connection between me and Red Wolves here is
that I didn't know anything about Red Wolves
until I was in law school, actually. I went to
law school in Tacoma, Washington, and there's
a zoo there called the Point Defiant Zoo. When
I didn't want to study, I would go out to the
Point Defiant Zoo and I would walk around. You
know, interested to know and find out that they
were part of the Red Wolf breeding program. They
had Red Wolves there. Ed, they were more than
part. Point Defiance is where the Red Wolf captive
breeding program started. No kidding. They had
been the anchor and are due a world of credit
for that work. Isn't that neat? The releases
in Northeastern North Carolina centered on the
Alligator River National Wildlife Refuge were
all about establishing a population in the wild
that would count toward federal recovery. Hold
that thought. Also, can I back you up a little
bit? What was the historic range of the red wolf?
It drifted into south central Texas and then
all the way across to Florida and it pushed up
to Pennsylvania and drifted as far west as Idaho.
Imagine the southeastern quadrant of the United
States and that could be considered red wolf
country. Okay, so they ranged quite a bit. Here's
where red wolves and gray wolves differ a bit.
Yeah. And it is the big problem for recovery.
Red wolves have this odd predilection. When they
occur in the wild in small numbers, they have
this odd predilection to hybridize with coyotes.
Oh boy, that's a problem. And it may be no more
complicated than the fact that red wolves everywhere
are monestrous. Female cycle once a year. That's
a fundamental different wild wolves and domestic
dogs a domestic dog will cycle about every nine
months Okay, or less Gray wolves. It's it's an
annual cycle both males and females Okay, let's
assume how you get the chance to breed once a
year. You're not gonna miss the opportunity man
And you're wandering around your three -year
-old male red wolf and you're ready to go and
you can't find One of your kind, but you think
on that coyote. She's not bad -looking That's
not that'll work that'll work and and and it
was kind of that Crossed and Steals Nash and
Young tune if you can't be with the one you love
love the one you're with Red wolves and coyotes.
I have come together and and hybridized. There's
an intergression Okay, as far as nature is concerned
she thinks this is great Two species coming together.
This is especially common in the plant world
Two species coming together to give rise to a
third form is a common mechanism of speciation,
especially in the plant world. So you take a
male red wolf and a female coyote and they breed
and she has a litter of puppies. They're strong,
vigorous, viable animals. Sure. Beautiful. Nature
celebrates that. Those animals don't count. Under
the Endangered Species Act because in the Endangered
Species Act what matters above all else? What
is the listed entity? What is the entity considered
for protection under the law? Specifically when
you look at the listing for the red wolf. It
is Canis Rufus It is not Canis Rufus cross with
a coyote Okay, so you've got this problem of
hybridization. You have this problem of integration
And I take it the northern gray wolves don't
interbreed with coyotes? No, no, no, not with
the same degree of regularity. You can talk about
that, but no. No, they breed more true. You could
fully expect gray wolves in Minnesota and coyotes
in Minnesota to use the same country and you're
not seeing a bunch of hybrid litters. As a matter
of fact, in that same country, what tends to
happen is the gray wolves kill the coyotes. Yeah,
that's Yellowstone too, right? And this may be
a function of small numbers of red wolves, but
regardless, when we began the work in northeastern
North Carolina, the Alligator River National
Wildlife Refuge, it was seen as a highly suitable
site because it was free of coyotes. OK. And
so off we went with reintroductions and we had
some success with about 100 wolves out. By about
that time, I began that work in. I think I moved
to Manny on North Carolina in 1985. I left for
Yellowstone in about a decade later to run the
Yellowstone project and as I was leaving North
Carolina leaving the riddle project We had about
a hundred animals on the ground and things were
going swimmingly and then one thing happened
Within about a year or two before I left we We
bumped into this litter of puppies that we couldn't
explain Mm -hmm. We knew that there they were
associated with the little female coyote that
we knew about but we didn't know who her mate
was and she was in bad shape because of mange
we bumped into the puppies they were in bad shape
because of mange and so we brought the puppies
into captivity we had a site on the refuge that
we could properly care for canids in captivity
and we cleaned them up and we said let's see
what they look like when they're 18 months of
age when they're truly adult size and one grew
up to look like a good red wolf and one group
to look a good coyote and there was one right
in the middle Okay. And so we were beginning
to see this problem of integration surface in
Northeastern North Carolina as I was leaving
for Yellowstone. That problem has persisted.
It was combined with a profound problem of poaching.
Okay. And I will say something about the Department
of Justice here in a moment. Sure. Between excessive
human -caused mortality, shooting red wolves,
and hybridization with coyotes, the program did
a nosedive. And here we are, 2026. Let's say
I began that work in 1986. 40 years later, Ed,
the Red Wolf is in worse shape in my mind than
what it was when I showed up in manual in 1986.
Because at least in 86, we had reason to be hopeful.
I don't know that we have reason to be hopeful
for the red wolf in 2026 if we're thinking about
areas where Coyotes occur. Yeah, when you look
at the United States, that's a hard place to
find a place where there aren't any coyotes Yeah,
they're in Los Angeles right here in my neighborhood.
So here's my punchline on the red wolf program
I hold the species in high regard. I know a lot
about it I was proud to be a member of that team
for a period of time working for the United States
Fish and Wildlife Service, but As an objective
biologist and someone that has served in public
office, and I know that the citizens, the voters
of this country deserve that we be honest with
them, it is, I am willing to admit, for the red
wolf, it might simply be an expression of the
children's tale. Despite all the king's horses
and all the king's men, sometimes you can't put
Humpty Dumpty back together again. And there
are other species, Ed, that probably are not
recoverable. in today's landscapes. I fail to
see how in the world you're going to recover
key deer in Florida. Yeah. We've done a lot of
work with opulmonophalcons in the southwest.
It may be another species that is simply not
recoverable in a manner that fits the spirit
and intent of the Endangered Species Act. That
is a thumbnail sketch of the Red Bull program.
I am concerned for it. And I just fail to see
how, given this persistent predilection, To hybridize
with coyotes, I don't see how you build the red
wolf of future that would comport with the future
demanded by the Endangered Species Act. Northern
gray wolves these are not liked animals and there's
a lot of poaching I take it so between those
two I see it was bullshit poaching is bullshit
poaching in a handful of counties in Northeastern
North Carolina North Carolina said oh shit man
we have to shoot canids at night and then let's
go on a while of resources Commission said sure
go shoot him at night so now now they're unloading
on coyotes at night well dog on it Ed if you
and I were in the woods in Northeastern North
Carolina and we look down that logging road and
we say shit man look at there's a canid what
is that man is that a coyote Or is that a six
-month -old red wolf? What the hell is that?
Okay. In this country, and you know this is a
special agent, let's hope your listeners know
it, too. They will by the time this episode comes
out, yes. In this country, it is expected, it's
a critical component of the fair chase philosophy,
and it undergirds all of our laws concerning
wildlife use. You cannot pull the trigger. Unless
you know unequivocally what it is you're shooting.
You can't go to court and say gee was your honor
I'm so sorry. I thought that eagle was a crow
Exactly enough mistaken identity is not a defense
What the Department of Justice did was they didn't
press these cases They didn't say I don't give
a shit that you thought that was a coyote. You
shot a red wolf. That's against the law That's
not incidental take because you purposely pulled
the trigger Here's the incidental take as special
agents like you described to me. Here's an incidental
take of a red wolf that would not get you busted.
You shoot a white -tailed deer lawfully. The
bullet passes through the deer, travels down
the road, hits the wolf in the head and kills
it. That's an incidental take. That's not what
was happening at night with spotlights, ostensibly
because they thought they needed to kill coyotes.
So it was ridiculous, once again, needless killing.
And in this particular case, I think for an extended
period of time, the United States Fish and Wildlife
Service Special Agents were not good enough at
convincing the Department of Justice to pursue
these cases in a court of law. Well, I'll tell
you what. The reason for that comes out of McKittrick.
That's exactly right. You go there, I'll go there
too. Hey, by this time my listeners know what
the McKittrick policy is at DOJ. We are dissecting
that hard during this season because it is a
wrong decision. Here's the irony, Ed. If you're
a waterfowl hunter, and I'm not, I don't hunt
waterfowl, but I don't understand the process
well enough, I get it. We expect waterfowl hunters
to make fine distinctions on the wing. You have
to be able to tell a canvasback from a similar
species. And if you can't, and you take one unlawfully,
it doesn't matter that you didn't properly ID
that bird on the wing. You broke the law. And
a CO would press that case. Yep. Conservation
officer would definitely press that case. And
that case would almost surely succeed in court
with some sort of fine. In contrast, Because
of the Chad McKittrick claiming that all number
10 was I thought it was a dog and and you know
You're at DOG was somehow impressed by that bullshit
claim of mistaken identity If you don't know
in the country if you don't know folks, don't
pull the trigger Don't pull the trigger and that
is common knowledge among all hunters or anybody
who handles firearms You you are responsible
for where that bullet goes period 100 % and that's
what that's the red wolf. I I am I am Yeah, I
don't see how you get from where you are to where
you need to be pal I suspected and you know one
thing that kind of cued me in that that was probably
the the fate is that when I reached out to some
agents who used to work in the southeast and
asked them to come on to talk about the enforcement
issues related to red wolves I Couldn't get anybody
to agree because they one of the answers I got
was you know i don't want to go on and give anybody
any ideas about how they could kill one more
red wolf you know i'm like well that's depressing
as hell right now i don't i agree and maybe i
shouldn't have said anything no i mean the bottom
line the bottom line you know mike is that people
people who are out to kill red wolves they know
very well what the mckittrick memo says and they
know very well what to say if they get caught
and they're very savvy. We're not going to give
anybody any ideas about it because they already
know exactly how they're going to go poach. And
so folks know there's maybe 10 or 20 red wolves,
I'm sorry, 10 or 20 red wolves that are free
ranging at the Alligator River National Wildlife
Refuge. And that's an interesting number for
those 10 or 20 they get to live lives of freedom
That in no mean constitutes a population and
certainly you're a long long ways from recovery
We're 40 years in I am less optimistic for the
red wolf now than I was 40 years ago Beyond the
problem of illegal killing you have this background
concern of hybridization with coyotes. Yeah interesting
Well, on that sad note, let's turn to the Mexican
gray wolves. Those are, of course, in the southeastern
U .S., in Mexico now, but also in Arizona and
New Mexico. What's your involvement with the
Mexican gray wolf recovery projects? Yeah. So
folks know red wolf Canis rufus, gray wolf Canis
lupus, and the Mexican gray wolf is Canis lupus,
and there's lots of subspecies of Canis lupus.
You could make a case that the gray wolves in
Yellowstone are best considered Canis lupus irremotus.
The gray wolves of Minnesota are best considered
Canis lupus nubilus. The Mexican gray wolf is
best considered Canis lupus balei. From a taxonomic
perspective, I'm a lumper. I'm not a splitter.
As far as I'm concerned, it's Canis lupus irregardless.
But nonetheless... I love it. The Mexican wolf
is a listed entity. It's considered by federal
law under the Endangered Species Act. And so
Canis lupus balei is a name that has standing
under federal law. I have been a member of every
Mexican wolf recovery team that's been convened
since 1995. I know the science and the mechanics
and the philosophy. that undergirds Mexican gray
wolf recovery very, very well. Since 1998, my
shop, the Turner Endangered Species Fund, has
maintained the only private captive breeding
and pre -release facility for Mexican wolves
in the world at Mr. Turner's Ladder Ranch. We
have housed well over 100 animals at that facility
over the last, what would that be, 1998, over
the last nearly 30 years. We've had large numbers
of puppies born there. We've had animals that
come from wherever to our place to go to Mexico.
We're an important stop on the way to Mexico.
So I have been deeply, deeply involved in the
Mexican Wolf Recovery Program since 1995. I know
the program very, very well. And I am willing
to debate anybody, anytime, anyplace. The Mexican
Wolf Recovery Program, the Mexican Wolf Recovery
Plan, That's currently constituted will fail
Will fail that's interesting because it's it's
not doing as well as you know the Yellowstone
release or the northern Rockies releases but
Because you know those wolves are now into California.
They've dispersed as far as California What why
why isn't the Mexican gray wolf recovery program?
doing as well The habitat of the southwest is
not as accommodating as the habitats further
north into Montana and Oregon and Idaho and Washington.
Meaning what? Not as much prey or what? The prey
biomass is not quite the same. There's not the
big massive tracks of public land where any gray
wolf would receive reasonable consideration.
The United States Fish and Wildlife Service In
what I would argue, and I'll debate anybody,
anytime, anywhere, on this particular point,
they have adopted this wrong -headed approach
of retrieving a Mexican gray wolf just because
it wanders a certain distance to the north. If
a Mexican gray wolf wanders north of Interstate
40, the Fish and Wildlife Service is inclined
to catch it and bring it back south of I -40.
even though the animal hasn't caused any problem
except standing on a piece of ground north of
I -40. And now, honestly, the prey base north
of 40 is probably better than it is up there.
Well, it certainly gets better. Yeah. And I have
to believe that wolves are sometimes motivated
by food, but regardless of why she's north of
I -40, if she's north of I -40 but not causing
any problem, why would we... Why would we monkey
with her? Here's a good way to look at it. We
don't manage common species that way. We don't
say cottontail rabbits are okay until they cross
this line and then we're gonna go get them and
do something with them. It's a wrong -headed
way to look at wildlife management and wildlife
restoration. But here's why it exists. And also,
when you explain this, because earlier you were
talking about in the earlier parts of the northern
gray wolf reintroduction, you kind of took an
intensive management approach. So why wouldn't
you do that with the Mexicans? Well, the Fish
and Wildlife Service has intensively managed
Mexican gray wolves, and they have done so successfully.
Well, gee whiz, Mike, why is it failing? Yeah.
And it's kind of a long story, but let me see
if I can do it rather quickly. For many many
years me and and my colleagues were the science
voice for the Mexican wolf recovery Program and
for the Mexican wolf recovery planning process.
Okay, and so we took a deep dive into a simple
question Where could gray wolf successfully go
in the southwestern United States? We did a study
of habitat suitability Okay, now gee whiz holy
mackerel Western Colorado highly suitable Northern
Arizona, southeastern Utah, highly suitable.
And the country in southwestern New Mexico and
southeastern Arizona, just north of the border,
highly suitable too. You've got these three big
banks of opportunity in southwestern New Mexico,
southeastern Arizona. That's the southern part.
Your northwestern part is the Grand Canyon eco
-region of Arizona and Utah. And your northeastern
part of this triangle is the Southern Rockies
eco -region of Southern Colorado and Northern
New Mexico. Okay. You look at Habitat Suda building,
you look at things like road density, you think,
wow, this is a winner. This could work really
well. It would start to look a lot like the Northern
Rocky Mountains, where you had three populations
that had to communicate, one in Idaho, one in
Montana, one in Yellowstone, same idea in the
Southwest, it would work beautifully. Yeah. It
would work beautifully. The states didn't like
that at all the states of Wyoming I'm sorry the
states of Colorado and Utah and Arizona and New
Mexico said bullshit to that idea bullshit and
They kept getting in the way that kept getting
in the way that kept getting in the way for a
long period of time I'm telling you what at years
hmm we began this work in 1995 and by 2014 Nearly
20 years later the states had convinced the feds
to discard the notion of moving Mexican wolves
into the Grand Canyon eco -region and the Southern
Rockies eco -region. They said the northern option's
ridiculous. You shouldn't do that. Here's what
you should do instead. The southern option. Mexican
wolf recovery should focus on central Arizona
and central New Mexico, south into Mexico. And
they were able to convince the United States
Fish and Wildlife Service of that southern option.
For a ten -year period of time that started at
the beginning of 2018 So the feds are committed
to this southern option at least until probably
2028 or 2029 Okay, will not work right? Here's
why it will not work It says You need about 300
wolves in the United States part of that southern
option for eight years, and you need about 200
Mexican wolves in Mexico in the southern portion
of that southern option for about eight years.
There's not a snowball's chance in hell, Ed,
that you're going to establish a population of
200 wolves in Mexico for any successive years.
It ain't going to happen. And here's why it won't
happen. There's virtually no public land in Mexico.
It's all privately owned or... owned by communities
known as ajitos. It's still private property.
They have our Mexican colleagues, beautiful biologists,
I think the world of them, but they don't have
a reliable sense of the distribution of native
prey. And you get the sense that there's not
that much in the form of white -tailed deer in
Mexico, and there's no elk. And finally... They
don't have any way to contradict a simple claim.
There's livestock everywhere. Yeah. Livestock
everywhere. So here's a piece of ground, no public
land, unknown numbers of native prey, but they're
scarce, and livestock everywhere. That is a tremendous
formula for conflict. Yep. And yet, the Fed said,
no, no, no, we're going to insist that about
40 percent of the work that needs to be done
to recover the Mexican wolf has to be done in
Mexico. Ed, it will not work. Now, you might
ask, why did the feds buy into this? Yeah, why
did they? Some really talented biologists in
Mexico and the United States came together and
they did a habitat suitability study. Okay. And
so they built this model. this black box that
said if we put the right stuff into the black
box that is this habitat model, it'll spit out
answers as to where good habitat exists. I see.
Got it. We did the same thing when we looked
at the Grand Canyon Eco -region and the Southern
Rockies Eco -region. We did the same thing. But
here's what they didn't do with their black box.
They left out two very important data layers
that have great influence over habitat suitability
for wolves. They did not include a layer for
land ownership. In the United States, wolf recovery
has been advanced across large tracts of federal
lands, not private lands. Mexico is nearly all
privately owned. They had no component in their
habitat model for land ownership. And then secondly,
they had no component in their habitat model
for the distribution and abundance of livestock.
Right. And yet, a consistent point of friction
between humans and wolves is conflict with livestock.
Everywhere in the United States where wolf recovery
has advanced, it's been across large tracts of
federal public lands. Open land, yeah. That support
a great deal more native prey, deer and elk,
than livestock. Those two are essential. aspects
of habitat suitable for gray wolves. In this
habitat suitability model for Mexico, they left
them out. And then finally, the third piece that
matters. In the United States, wolf recovery
has gone forward because of large tracts of federal
public land, good numbers of native prey compared
to livestock, and a federal law, the Nature Species
Act, that mandates recovery. The secretary shall
advance recovery. I'm paraphrasing, but that's
basically what the law says. Recovery for the
Secretary of the Interior is not a discretionary
activity. In contrast, in Mexico, their equivalent
of our Endangered Species Act simply says recovery
would be fine, but it's not mandated. So there
is no force of mandate pushing the program forward.
And as it turns out, Ed, you know this pal is
a special agent. The United States government
has no statutory authority in Mexico. Right.
It's a foreign country. It's absolutely shocking.
Okay, finally, the fourth piece. No public land,
unknown numbers of native prey, you got livestock
everywhere, you've got no mandate. The fifth
piece, the fifth piece, here's the fifth piece,
this is a real wonder, you're gonna love this
one, especially, you're gonna love this, the
fifth piece. The fifth nail in the coffin, if
you will. Some of the best country in Mexico,
the big wild country, is controlled by cartels.
Yeah, I knew you were going to say that. I knew
you were going to say that. You can't work with
some sense that you are secure from violence.
I've had teammates that have gone into Mexico
on behalf of our Bull Santana's project that
had been stopped at night on a rural road by
armed banditos. Nothing came of it, but it could
have. I even had one of my colleagues work for
Arizona Game and Fish, and he said, this is great.
All that wild country is controlled by cartels.
I said, Jim, you're telling me that this is good
habitat for gray wolves because of the drug trade.
How in the world does that work, man? That's
not a stakeholder you're going to be. You're
going to win. This is crazy, man. This is crazy.
And the sixth piece. There's another piece. I'll
debate anybody, anytime, anywhere. The final
piece, the final nail in the coffin. When you
look at wolf population establishment via reintroductions,
and this goes back to what I said about Yellowstone
and the red wolf work, there is at the beginning
an intense period, a period of very intense field
work to promote population growth and to prevent
and resolve conflicts. You've got to be able
to work with wolves on the ground. Ed. If Mexico's
all privately owned, who am I supposed to talk
to to get the key to get through that gate? And
that's assuming that the guy that owns the gate,
that owns the land, is going to give me the key
to get through. How do I put my boots on the
ground with enough regularity to do the management
that is needed to promote population growth?
There's not a snowball's chance in hell that
Mexico's going to work. No, and you know what
else I mean if you even back up to the 95 time
in the in the Idaho, Montana area our agents
had some trouble with some early investigations
because they were running into armed anti -government
militia type people who hated the government
and That's gonna be a hundred fold down there
in Mexico work. It's not here was the last piece
of the what I consider the sad tragedy of the
Mexican wolf through a wrong -headed recovery
planning process. By 2017, the service had cemented
the southern option, advancing Mexican wolf recovery
from central Arizona and central New Mexico,
south into Mexico. walking away from the northern
option, which would have been to move Mexican
wolves into the Grand Canyon ecoregion of Arizona
and Utah and the Southern Rockies ecoregion of
Northern New Mexico and Southern Colorado. Yeah.
Arguably better habitat, yeah. When they made
that, I said, OK, fine. I've done my best, assembled
the best available science, and it is the service's
responsibility and opportunity. You decide the
direction of a recovery program. You've cast
You're fly. I'm with you. I'm going to move on
the southern Rockies. I'm going to move on wolf
recovery to western Colorado otherwise. And once
I succeed, that great, big, wonderful patch of
habitat that is western Colorado, that is God's
gift to gray wolves, once that patch of habitat,
which is currently unoccupied, once it's occupied
by northern gray wolves, it will be lost to the
Mexican wolf. because any Mexican wolf that wanders
into that country, into western Colorado that
now supports 125 gray wolves from Montana, let's
say, a Mexican wolf wanders into that country,
it's simply going to be lost in the genetic shuffle
of breeding. And so you've set your course on
the southern option. I tried and I tried for
over 20 years to get you to recognize the value
of the northern option. You haven't done it.
And that's when we launched, Team Turner launched
the massive effort to secure a mandate for restoring
a population to western Colorado that would almost
surely, and now we know for sure does, focuses
on a northern type. Animals coming out of Oregon
or Washington or Montana, not Mexican wolves
coming out of captivity. Right. Which is a perfect
transition to now talk about the Colorado situation?
The only thing I will add here is that it sounds
like the Mexican gray wolf Effort could could
be successful if those areas had been opened
up Sooner or if they were opened up to Mexican
gray wolves allowed them to migrate up there
on their own Yeah, or you reintroduce them before
the Colorado wolves And for 20 years, that was
my play. I kept saying the best way to populate
Colorado with wolves and the Grand Canyon ecoregion
of Arizona and Utah would be the United States
Fish and Wildlife Service discharging their duties
under the Endangered Species Act on behalf of
Canis lupus balea. That was the 20 -year play
the feds chose otherwise. I will say there is
a Hail Mary for the Mexican wolf. It doesn't
touch on northern New Mexico and southern Colorado.
That country, I think, is lost to Balei now.
Here's the Hail Mary for Balei. The Hail Mary
is the Grand Canyon ecoregion of northern Arizona
and southern Utah. That is still unoccupied.
It is ideally suited for the Mexican gray wolf.
If the feds could start to ignore that I -40
boundary, that makes no sense anyway. If the
feds were to move reintroductions to the Grand
Canyon National Park, for example, the feds could
claim The wonderful patch of habitat that is
the Grand Canyon ecoregion they could claim that
for Bailey I and it is good enough ed I bet you
a nickel I could run the science that would say
I can have a big enough Mexican wolf population
in the Grand Canyon ecoregion and a big enough
Mexican wolf population down in southwestern
Arizona and southeastern to Mexico southwestern
to Mexico and southeastern Arizona the border
country between those two areas I would have
enough Mexican wolves in the US To satisfy the
recovery plan to recover. Yeah, the Grand Canyon
eco region is still open to Bailey I and it would
represent a Hail Mary Interesting. Okay. Well,
hopefully somebody from people that are listening
aren't thinking about it Not in any functional
way the state of Arizona is keenly opposed to
the idea the state of Utah is keenly opposed
to the idea I say to people that are impressed
by keen opposition by state agencies, if it took
state support for the Fish and Wildlife Service
to advance wolf recovery, I would still be sitting
on a dock in Maneo, North Carolina, waiting to
let the first red wolf go. Yes, you would. There's
no question about that, for sure. So now, perfect
transition to talk about Colorado, because Colorado
reintroduction is recent, and you played a major
role in that. Can you explain how the Colorado
reintroduction is very different from what happened
up in Yellowstone? Well, the mechanics are very
similar to what happened. Yeah, mechanics, but
the politics of it and the way it came about,
right? Yeah, and of course, folks, all of the
Wolf reintroductions that have been done to date,
except in Colorado, were done by the United States
Fish and Wildlife Service under their authorities
by the Endangered Species Act. When the Fish
and Wildlife Service decided to push the Mexican
Wolf South, the agency was gone. They weren't
interested in Colorado. So I said to myself,
okay, how else are we going to get this done?
I knew I could have done it illegally. Shoot,
Ed, you and I could catch enough wolves in Montana
and drag them down to Colorado and go and get
the job done. Well, hey, and you know, we got
to stop there because wolves were coming down
from Wyoming into Colorado. Every once in a while,
there'd be wolves turning up. When I knew the
Mexican wolf was not going to be viable for Colorado,
I thought, well, we knew it illegally, but I
didn't want to go to jail. So we set the illegal
idea aside. You could imagine gray wolves doing
it on their own. But Wyoming... passed a law
that basically said the gray wolf is vermin across
about 85 % of the state. And so consequently
any wolf that wants to leave the northwestern
corner of Wyoming has to walk through this extensive
killing field to get to Colorado. When you take
a look at the science of connectivity, there's
just very, very little chance that enough gray
wolves would make that walk to actually give
rise to a population. So let's set aside colonization
by by wolves moving on their own. So you're not
going to do it illegally. Wolves aren't going
to do it on their own. Feds aren't coming with
the Mexican wolf. We had a fourth option. There's
one last option, and it speaks to the common
sense aspect of the Endangered Species Act, which
simply states that when a state government is
inclined to discharge the duties of the Endangered
Species Act, the United States Fish and Wildlife
Service will enable that. Ah, okay, and there's
a lot to be said for the states rising up and
taking care of imperiled species. So I think,
you know, the gray wolf is protected under federal
law, but if the state of Colorado is willing
to stand up and say, hey, we'll do the hard work,
I could fully expect the United States Fish and
Wildlife Service to say, hey, thank you. For
God sakes, we appreciate that you're going to
carry the water now. Here's the permit. Off you
go. Okay. Right. But the fact is, Ed, wolf recovery
is so hard, No state is going to willingly jump
into the deep end of the wolf recovery pool.
You got a pressure Okay, you say to yourself.
Well, how can you push a state government? Into
the deep end of the pool. Well, you know how
you do that Ed You get the bonus to rise up and
say do this you get the real bosses To say to
their employees like a governor and like a director
of Colorado Parks and Wildlife Ye shall use reintroductions
to restore a self -sustaining population of gray
wolves to western Colorado. So, I built out,
over the course of many, many, many, many years,
I built out a plan to exercise direct democracy
as the means for securing a lawful mandate to
use reintroductions to restore gray wolves to
western Colorado. We pushed that across many
years. It was ultimately decided in November
of 2020 when the voters of Colorado had in front
of them Proposition 114 and Proposition 114 was
simple. It basically said if you aspire For the
state of Colorado to remain wolfless vote no
on 114 if you aspire For the state of Colorado
to support gray wolves vote. Yes Hmm a majority
of the voters in November 2020 voted. Yes And
that fixed one for proposition 114 as now a state
law. It is colorado revised statute 33 -2 -105
.8 Call it the wolf restoration law and it says
colorado parks and wildlife Under the authority
of the wildlife commission will use reintroductions
To restore a population that is self -sustaining
to western colorado Once that became law, the
feds did exactly what we'd expect the feds to
do. They worked with the state to make sure the
administrative process was lawful. They issued
a permit. The first reintroductions began in
December of 2023. Right now in Colorado, there
are probably 30 adult -sized gray wolves in the
state. I would guess those 30 are probably distributed
in the three or four or five... packs, families
that are capable of breeding. If I'm right, there's
about 30 adults on the ground in Colorado, given
that we're almost into May. There's a bunch of
puppies that have probably been born. There might
be another 15 or 20 puppies on the ground. You
might have 50 or 55 gray wolves on the ground
in Colorado as we speak as a consequence of the
successful exercise of direct democracy to establish
a restoration mandate. What do you think sometimes
the Fish and Wildlife Service would come under
criticism? for Well, there would be a call for
the Fish and Wildlife Service to make its decisions
based on science not politics, right? So I can't
have What's the difference and now Colorado is
entered bringing back wolves based on? Arguably,
some people will say politics. All the liberals
in Colorado wanted wolves and pushed them on
everybody else. That's not relying on science.
That's relying on politics. What's the response
to that? Well, first and foremost, life is politics,
Ed. You know that. And we should all admit that
none of this takes place. Especially the endangered
species work that we've talked about none of
it takes place without the endangered species
act. It's a law It's a law that came about because
of a political process and you and I both know
there is no Fish and Wildlife Management in the
United States absent laws that are a consequence
of politics. This is all invested against politics.
Politics are a way for a great nation like ours
to move forward together. It doesn't mean that
everybody's satisfied, but if somebody can come
up with a better system than what we've got,
it may be a shitty system. I just believe it's
the best in the world. I agree. Cry me a river,
then oh my lord, ballot box biology bullshit.
And now on a more technical note. And I'll debate
this anytime, anywhere, anybody. The notion of
a ballot box, biology being exercised in Colorado.
When you take a fair look at Proposition 114,
it was really largely silent on technical aspects
of restoration via reintroductions. It did say
things like ranchers will be respected. It did
say things like you're going to use reintroductions.
It did say range reductions have to be done west
of the Continental Divide But you know shit man,
Colorado is huge west of the Continental Divide
sure and it said the Commission has to develop
criteria for success Okay, but beyond those four
general points The specifics of how to get from
where we were to where the law said you needed
to be those were all left up to the state game
agency to deal with the technical aspects. I
believe if you take a fair look at Proposition
114, it is a nice blending of the expectation
that technical experts, biologists, would decide
on technical matters related to wolf restoration
via reintroduction. So it's a nice embrace of
science and technical expertise. At the same
time, it's a nice embrace of a decided slice
of Americana. That being the power of electoral
politics. One person, one vote. We come together,
we make a decision, and off we go. It's a nice
blending. Now, beyond that, people say, well,
it's still ballot box biology. I would say to
them, beyond that, Colorado revised statute 33
-2 -105 .5. It was passed years earlier that
says, well gee whiz Ed, any reintroduction of
a federally listed species either threatened
or endangered under the Endangered Species Act,
any reintroduction of a federally listed species
in Colorado has to first be approved by the state
legislature. Okay, wait a minute, wait a minute.
Everybody that sits in the state legislature
is elected against a ballot. Right and very few
biologists serve in state legislatures so I could
make the case that hang on hang on hang on 33
-2 -105 .5 ensured that Endangered species work
in Colorado involving federally listed species
and reintroduction are all done at the ballot
box, right? They're all decided by elected officials.
Yes, there you go. I will debate anybody anytime
anywhere On the wisdom of proposition 114 as
a way to move the notion of wolf restoration
in Colorado to a decision point. Coloradans could
have said in the majority no. True. Got it. They
didn't say that, Ed. They said yes in the majority.
That's true. And, you know, all those people
that, you know, I don't even want to bring this
up because it's not even worth responding to,
so don't respond, but I'm going to imagine it
anyway. You always see on Facebook, you know,
all the people claiming, well, why don't you
put the wolves in Denver? That's such a cliché,
stupid thing to say. But don't even answer. It's
just such a stupid thing to say. I don't think
we need to respond to. Now, wait a minute, wait
a minute, wait a minute. You want us to move
against the best available science? We understand
gray wolves well. The habitat of Denver is not
suitable. It's not too many roads too many people
not enough prey I Know it's such a cliche stupid
thing to say it doesn't make any sense But on
that note why and I know we're you're running
out of time here But why what is it about Colorado
that makes it a suitable place? to expect success.
So I said earlier, it's probably God's gift to
gray wolves. It is, forget for a moment that
there might be 30 adult sized wolves on the ground
in Colorado and 10, 15, 20 puppies, and they'd
be little guys, you know, they'd be four days
old or some day going thing. Forget that. Let's
assume it's fully unoccupied. Western Colorado
represents without doubt the best unoccupied
wolf habitat in the world. Wow. As a matter of
fact, I think I could make the case that it's
the best wolf habitat in the world occupied or
unoccupied. And you go, well gee, Mike, how is
that the case? Well, here's how you can look
at it. Western Colorado presents gray wolves
a very, very favorable prey biomass. And I said
earlier, if human -caused mortality is low for
gray wolves, Gray wolf population dynamics are
decided by food, prey biomass. Colorado supports
a ridiculous number of deer and elk. About a
long -term average for elk would be 200 ,000.
A long -term average for deer would be 400 ,000.
So there's this large number, large numbers of
deer and elk. Hold that thought. Then you wonder
about patterns of land ownership. Is there federal
public land that's managed for multiple use purposes
against which wildlife, things like gray wolves,
would receive reasonable consideration? Over
20 million acres of federal public lands in western
Colorado. So let's compare those two aspects,
prey and land ownership, to the Greater Yellowstone
Ecosystem. Greater Yellowstone Ecosystem is the
largest assemblage of conservation lands in the
temperate world. The Greater Yellowstone Ecosystem,
let's be generous and say it includes 15 million
acres of federal public lands or thereabouts.
The heart and soul of the GYE, the Greater Yellowstone
Ecosystem, would be Yellowstone National Park
at 2 .2 million acres. Okay, great. Just wonderful
patch of opportunity. Right. So with a favorable
pattern of land ownership. And the GYE right
now as a reference point for everybody supports
about 350 to 500 gray wolves. Cool. Right. That's
a good number. That's cool. That's great. Okay.
Favorable pattern of land ownership. The GYE
Probably supports Three four hundred thousand
deer and elk Okay, let's say it's not quite half
of what Western Colorado has Western color has
probably twice as much deer and elk twice as
many deer and elk. I'm sorry more federal public
lands And we know the GYE as the comparison supports
three hundred fifty to five hundred gray wolves
Western Colorado can put those numbers on the
board if not more it is this wonderful opportunity
of land ownership and prey abundance that is
ideally suited for gray wolves, and absent those
30 adults on the ground and a handful of puppies,
it's wolf -less. From the perspective of a restoration
ecologist like myself, beyond the habitat models
telling me unequivocally it's supremely suitable
habitat, beyond that, it's location. in the continent
really matters. Here's where that plays. Gray
wolves can be found from northwestern Montana
and northwestern Wyoming, Yellowstone, all the
way north unbroken into the high arctic of Canada.
This extensive population of gray wolves that
go all the way high arctic. And then if you crawl
down into the border country of southwestern
New Mexico and southeastern Arizona, you can
bump into 300 Mexican gray wolves. That's good,
that's good. They're there because they're largely
fed by the Fish and Wildlife Service. But nonetheless,
let's give the wolves the benefit. You got 300
down there in the border country. Yeah, 300 in
the border country to the south. Thousands going
up to the high Arctic. And you got this great
big gap in the middle. Yeah, the great big gap
in the middle is Western Colorado. Interesting.
You can establish a population of gray wolves
in Western Colorado. It will serve, that population
will serve as the archstone. connecting Gray
-Wilson and the Arctic all the way to the Mexican
border. Ed, there is no other place in the world
where you can imagine completion of the restoration
of a large, endangered, much maligned carnivore
across the continent. That is restoration magic
of the finest kind. The missing piece of the
puzzle. Indeed. Fantastic. Indeed. Let me ask
you this. This will be my last question for you.
What's the one thing you would want all Americans
to know about wolf reintroductions and the benefit
of having wild wolves thriving in the US? And
that's a hard one, because so many Americans
live in different places. As a matter of fact,
this Friday, my youngest daughter is a junior
at Bozeman High School, and she's a member of
the Human Rights Club. And I get to go visit
with the Human Rights Club. this Friday and speak
about endangered species work and why does it
matter and the sixth great extinction crisis.
But why does wolf restoration matter? It's a
dramatic illustration that we can right or wrong.
We don't have to live in an impoverished world,
impoverished from a biological perspective. We
can restore imperiled species on purpose. We
can we can celebrate the wondrous diversity of
life that still surrounds us We can celebrate
it through active management of populations that
occur on their own We can celebrate it through
purposeful reintroductions to restore populations
that will come to persist on their own It is
a dramatic example that we can write a wrong
and and there's no way if you're willing to be
objective There's there's no way you can argue
That it was right to decimate gray wolves There's
just there's there's no math That you can assemble
that would lead to that answer It doesn't mean
that you don't kill gray wolves on occasion.
You can kill them because they're causing a problem
You can kill them because you want to hang the
firm on on the wall But there's no math that
would say needless killing is justified Gray
wolves got caught up in this this embrace of
manifest destiny When white folks showed up from
Europe so long ago, they sat out across this
great country to tame the wilderness. And they
whipped Native Americans, they whipped American
planes bison, they whipped gray wolves, they
subdued the wild aspects of much of this country
to make room for their European perspective.
And we've been living with that. That that ugly
violent history ever since okay fine if You're
willing to embrace that as a reasonable portrayal
of history. It doesn't have to be our future,
right? We can restore nature wolf reintroductions
Makes clear that even species that get people
Fired up good and bad even people that think
gray wolves are angelic or people that think
gray wolves are devilish We can still go forward
and celebrate the power of restoration, we can
right a wrong. That's the story. That's the punchline
of Wolf Recovery. Mike Phillips, thank you so
much. That is fantastic. I really appreciate
you being on the show. This has been a real honor
for me. I could ask you more questions all day,
but I do want to be respectful of your time.
Thank you very much for being on the show. It's
going to make a big difference to this season.
Ed, thank you. My honor, pal. Thank you. Hey,
thank you. Nature's Secret Service is written
and produced by me, Ed Newcomer, and is co -produced
by the DHTV team here at California State University,
Dominguez Hills. Follow us on social media and
connect with us online at naturessecretservice
.com