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Okay everybody, here we go. This is Nature's
Secret Service, the podcast that puts you in
the room with the men and women of wildlife law
enforcement. I'm Ed Newcomer, your host, former
special agent with the U .S. Fish and Wildlife
Service, and we are Midway through our season
on wolves. I am super excited about our guest
today. We have Mike Phillips with us. Mike is,
and I'm going to say it, he's probably going
to laugh and be more humble, but this guy's a
legend in the world of wolf reintroduction. In
the earliest part of Mike's career, he was focusing
on gray wolves in Minnesota, Michigan, and Alaska,
but he went on to lead the effort to reintroduce
red wolves in the southeastern U .S., which was
really the first effort to restore a species.
declared extinct in the wild. In the mid 1990s,
he worked for the National Park Service in charge
of wolf reintroduction in Yellowstone National
Park. He is the co -founder and executive director
of the Turner Endangered Species Fund, and he's
played a major role in Mexican gray wolf recovery
in the southwestern U .S. and in the effort to
restore wild wolves to Colorado. Mike, thanks
so much for being on the program. I really appreciate
it. Well, Ed, thank you. You could have shortened
that to simply say, Mike is a glutton for punishment.
Hey, the other thing I forgot to mention, of
course, is that you are a you have a long history
as an elected official. You served in the Montana
State Legislature as a representative and later
as the senator. And so you have a huge body of
public service, which I want to make sure we
recognize and say thank you on behalf of myself
and all Americans for everything you've done
for not only your state, but also this country.
Thank you. Well, you're very kind. I'll tell
you what anybody who works for the U .S. Fish
and Wildlife Service and endeavors to protect
endangered species is a glutton for punishment
to some extent. And you know, I can claim, I
can claim to have worked intimately with the
two species that really piss people off. Gray
wolves piss people off for sometimes good reasons,
but... Oftentimes not not such good reasons and
prairie dogs prairie dogs piss people off man
And we've done a lot of work with prairie dogs
over the last many years. We have trans look
we being team Turner have translocated over 15
,000 prairie dogs Ed to establish suitable habitat
for black -footed ferrets Ferrets are an obligate
carnivore and prairie dogs. If you don't have
prairie dogs, you will not have ferrets I know
that two species that really frustrate people,
I know them well, gray wolves and prairie dogs.
That is fascinating. And I'm going to add a little
bit in here too, because I grew up in Colorado.
I know prairie dogs and prairie dog issues well.
And it's the two species that it's like, I think
the drama is a little overblown. The hatred of
the two species is out of place. So here's a
little story about being overblown and underblown.
Sure. When I was in the state legislature, we
were proud, this is years ago now, proud to pass
the Montana Sage Grouse Conservation Act. And
the states were coming together, the industry
was, the oil and gas industry and the agricultural
industry, coming together to advance sage grouse
conservation, to keep the need to list the species
under the Endangered Species Act at arm's length.
You can make the case that if the good work that
would be called for by the act... is being done
otherwise, then you don't need the Endangered
Species Act. So I was proud to cast that vote.
And then I was proud to vote for a $10 million
appropriation to fund Montana's sage -grouse
program. In the state of Montana, with fewer
than a million residents, we have a smallish
budget, a state budget. So for us, $10 million
is a lot of money. It's a lot of money. And so
for the sage -grouse, which has real potential...
To compromise land use practices in the rural
West sure this is related to ranching practices
related to oil and gas development What the Endangered
Species Act did was bring people together? To
do good work to advance the persistence of the
species without the heavy hammer of the act all
that thought gray wolves on the other hand Which
have little potential to disrupt? land use practices
in the Rocky Mountain West. It is just a fact,
Ed, that it's the atypical gray wolf that depredates
on livestock. They do not have a big enough impact
on big game to upset the big game hunting apple
cart. Gray wolves are actually relatively easy
to live with. They only require a modicum of
accommodation. In contrast, the sage grouse,
well, that's a tough puzzle. People came together
to celebrate solving the sage grouse puzzle,
which is tough. but what they do with gray wolves
is scream to high heaven that, oh my gosh, the
sky is falling if we've got gray wolves in Montana
or gray wolves in Colorado. I was just struck
that here's one species that really is a tough
nut to crack, that being the sage grouse, and
it brings people together. And another species
that's easy to live with, the gray wolf, that
divides people. It's just curious that there's
this odd sense of what gray wolves mean, because
it is not... It is not the reality. What people
expect from Grey Wolves is not the reality in
the woods. 100 percent. And you're not the only
guest who's been on this season that has said
something like that. And my view on it is a lot
of what's going around about Grey Wolves seems
to be what I refer to as information that has
been passed from one person to the other over
a beer at the local bar. It's it's just like
it's. it goes back to like fairy tale times.
It's rumor and fear -mongering and reactionary,
you know, responses to an animal that has sharp
teeth and big feet, you know? Well, prairie dogs
have sharp teeth too, but I would have you believe
that the problem on behalf of the gray wolf goes
back even deeper into time. I think the real
obstacle to wolf recovery has been and continues
to be the mythical wolf. Oh yeah, 100 % red riding
hood, little red riding hood. The sense that
the species has some supernatural ability to
exercise its predatory will on a whim, when in
fact nothing could be further from the truth,
unfortunately... The myth is as strong as it
is wrong. Here's what we know about gray wolves
and their predatory habits. And Ed, when I make
reference to the natural history patterns for
a gray wolf, know that they're undergirded by
great science. The gray wolf is one of the most
studied large mammals in the world. We know a
lot about gray wolves. We know, for example,
that most of the time when a gray wolf goes to
work, and they got to go to work, they go to
work every night, They go to work every night
and their job is to put on average about five
to seven pounds of food in their belly. They
go many many days with no food but on average
that's the amount they need to consume to maintain
a good body condition and to be surviving and
able to reproduce. And so for them the job is
to put five to seven pounds of food in their
belly every night. We know however most of the
time when they go to work, when they go to hunt,
they fail. We know that she was almost approaching
eight times out of ten. They come up empty -pod.
We know that hunting is a dangerous prospect.
I did a study years ago, Ed, looking at about
250 skulls, gray wolf skulls, that have been
collected by the Alaska Department of Fish and
Game. These animals have been shot by ADF &G,
Alaska Department of Fish and Game, to minimize
predation pressure on a local moose population
or caribou herd. So these animals have been shot.
The skulls have been cleaned up, and I looked
at the skulls for evidence of blunt force trauma.
How often were the animals kicked in the head
fully? They had fully a quarter. The skulls I
looked at showed a broken nose, a broken skull,
a broken jaw. It's really hard to make a living
in the woods with your teeth when you are hardwired
to kill something that is much, much bigger than
you. They fail. Hunting is dangerous. They're
not well built for the job at hand. The reason
they are so wildly successful, they have, against
all of these liabilities, they have two assets
that turn the tide in their favor. They're doggedly
determined. And they get up about every night
and they go to work. And they are supremely social.
Werewolves are one of the most social large mammals
in the world. They find great strength in numbers
and it is their determination the sociality that
allow them to thrive but otherwise There there's
is a tough road a hoe if you believe in reincarnation.
You do not want to come back as a gray wolf It's
too hard to work. Yeah, maybe a river otter Well,
hey before we jump into I wanted you have the
great thing about having you on the show in a
season about wolves is you have experience with
all the wolves that live in the United States
which is really cool the red wolf the Mexican
gray wolf the the gray wolves down Colorado and,
of course, the North American. I pride myself
on objectivity. There's nobody else in the country
that can make that claim. And there's no one
else in the country that can make that claim
and then also say, I've seen the issue of wolf
conservation, both gray and red wolf conservation,
from a decidedly policy and legal perspective
as a state legislative for 14 years. So I do
have a well -rounded opinion of all of this.
Right. Right. Which is exactly why I was so happy
when you agreed to be on the program. I do want
to quickly, I'm going to give a quick shout out
to my niece because you're going to like this,
Mike. My niece is studying wildlife biology at
Colorado State and she volunteers with the Black
Footed Ferret Recovery Program. And yeah, she's
been down many times. I've been with her a few
times to Arizona. We've helped with captures
and monitoring of Black -footed ferrets down
in Arizona. That's great. Oh, yeah. Yeah, West
of Flagstaff, which is a pretty cool program.
We have a rich effort with the Turner Endangered
Species Fund. Yeah. That's a mouthful, so I'm
largely going to refer to us as Team Turner.
Got it. Because there are members of the Turner
organization that don't work. This is my hat,
Ed. You can see my hat. I do, I noticed, yes.
But I refer to us as Team Turner. Team Turner's
got a rich program on behalf of Black Footed
Ferrets in South Dakota with Black Tailed Prairie
Dogs, and Kansas with Black Tailed Prairie Dogs,
and also in New Mexico with Gunnison's Prairie
Dogs. So thank your niece, she's doing God's
work. I'll tell you, she's loving it and she
knows, she can tell stories about Black Footed
Ferrets like nobody's business. She's into it,
big time. So, my listeners have a very solid
base. 1995, I know the effort started before
that, but the first reintroduction of wild wolves
into the Yellowstone Park area with the idea
that they would then repopulate the greater Yellowstone
area. Can you describe why? Why did that effort
come about? What was the purpose? What was the
goal back in 95? 94, you know, 94, 95. Sure,
it's a great question. Thank you. The recovery
plan, and you know this from your work as a special
agent, the Endangered Species Act calls for recovery
plans to be assembled that guide activities that
would allow the U .S. Fish and Wildlife Service
to say, we have created enough security for the
species in question that federal protections
can be lifted and the species in question can
be managed by a state agency. It is a fact in
this country that most wildlife are managed by
state agencies, not the United States Fish and
Wildlife Service. The U .S. Fish and Wildlife
Service has a differential focus on migratory
birds and imperiled species that are considered
by the Endangered Species Act. The recovery plan
for the gray wolf in the Northern Rocky Mountain
said, okay, you got to have three populations,
three populations that eventually will interact.
Animals will go from population A to B, B to
C, C to A, they'll be interacting. One big population,
call it a meta population, a population of populations.
There need to be three strong. There was one
that occurred naturally, gray wolves wandering
in from Canada in Northwestern Montana. Call
that population one. It was... conventional wisdom
that the second and third populations would have
to be brought about through reintroductions.
That's what was the underlying rationale for
reintroducing gray wolves to Yellowstone. It
could become population two. And then at the
same time we did the Yellowstone work there was
a companion project in central Idaho to reintroduce
wolves there and it became population number
three. So ultimately the reintroductions that
were done in Yellowstone and central Idaho were
all about satisfying. the requirements of the
recovery plan. That said, if the federal government,
the Fish and Wildlife Service, can establish
three populations of a certain size and they
are able to communicate genetically with one
another, the federal government can say, we've
satisfied our obligations under the Endangered
Species Act. We're done. We're going home. Gray
wolves will now be managed by Wyoming Game and
Fish, Montana Fish, Wildlife and Parks, and Idaho
Department of Fish and Game. And so that was
the underlying rationale. It was widely believed
that gray wolves would probably not move into
the Yellowstone ecosystem on their own, that
they would not move into central Idaho with sufficient
certainty on their own for the Fish and Wildlife
Service to step back and let gray wolves do it
by their own wanderings. But beyond that, and
you'll appreciate this, Ed, as a special agent,
if you had stood back, if the Fish and Wildlife
Service back in the day, 1991, 92, 93, 94, They
stood back and said, we're going to let wolves
do it on their own. They would have done so over
a long period of time as fully endangered animals.
When you look at the law, folks, the Endangered
Species Act says you can't do much to manage
an endangered animal that doesn't violate the
law. And so, you know, with these endangered
wolves are walking around, they kill your cows,
they kill your dog, you can't do anything because
they're endangered. In contrast, Ed, if the Fish
and Wildlife Service chooses to reintroduce under
a particular provision of the Endangered Species
Act, it opens up a tremendous opportunity to
create management latitude. So folks can. get
involved with hazing wolves that are harassing
livestock. The folks can expect the Fish and
Wildlife Service to exercise lethal removal if
necessary to resolve a conflict with livestock.
The advantage of reintroductions that was almost
certainly going to succeed, it would be relatively
cost effective and it would create great management
latitude. It's a great deal easier to live with
a wolf that can be managed than one that can't.
Boy, that is a hugely important point that I
think is missed it is missed because you're you're
absolutely right if I could just Say it in another
way Maybe so other listeners get it Is that yeah
if wolves had crossed the border they would be
fully protected under the Endangered Species
Act ESA and when an endangered species cannot
be messed with can't even be like harassed, right?
That's a violence. That's the only thing you
could do that would pass the smell test with
the judge is Killing a dangerous species that
was threatening your life? Self -defense, yeah,
that's the only thing. 100%, yeah, self -defense.
And that's the only thing that excuses people
when they kill grizzlies. And you know, for the
vast majority of species that are listed as endangered,
that's a fine provision because they don't represent
any threat to human safety. Grey wolves don't
either. Grey wolves do not represent a threat
to human safety, at least not a threat that's
worth worrying about. Beyond that, gray wolves,
on rare occasion, can create problems. It is
true that it's the atypical wolf that depredates
on livestock. But if that statement is true,
then if you believe in the bell -shaped curve,
which I do, there are some atypical wolves. On
occasion, gray wolves are going to get stuck
in the livestock. If they were not reintroduced...
and managed against the special provisions of
the Endangered Species Act that allow for latitude
in the field. Your hands are tied. As a special
agent, your hands would have been tied. That's
absolutely correct. One way to look at it is
it's almost as if, in a way, the Fish and Wildlife
Service was looking ahead and kind of did people
a favor by doing this. Of course they were. As
a matter of fact, if you go back and you look
at the history of the law, It's it's set you
know this every your listeners may not know yes
section 10j of the Endangered Species Act that
allows for animals to be reintroduced under what's
called an experimental non -essential framework
and and it allows for this relaxing of Restrictions
so you can exercise management latitude fine
when that all came about It was advocated by
friends of mine and supported by legislators
as a way to make the Endangered Species Act more
effective by making it more user friendly by
recognizing that sometimes the animals that need
help can cause problems and they need to be managed.
It was a beautiful stroke. Anybody that says
the Endangered Species Act is not a common sense
law that includes provisions to curry support
from local folks simply doesn't understand the
law. It is common sense and it does have provisions.
that make it practical to implement in the field?
A hundred percent. It was my experience, too,
working with the ESA in a pretty intimate way.
Yeah, sure, of course. Yeah. And you know, I
think that dovetails into my next question for
you in our area of discussion is that, so, okay,
when this reintroduction effort was committed,
there was a commitment to do it. And the first
wolves were brought into Yellowstone and put
in those orientation pens. Todd, talk a little
bit about what kind of response did you get from
the local community and what was the politics
of it? Can you talk a little bit about the dynamics,
like what kind of support were you getting from
the agencies, the states, or not support, and
the local people? What was it like? Well, of
course, there was local support and there was
local opposition. Sure. Of course. Yeah. And
let's say it was 50 -50. Okay, okay fine. Here's
the interesting thing about the United States
Fish and Wildlife Service in the Endangered Species
Act. That agency is properly named the United
States Fish and Wildlife Service. The U .S. Fish
and Wildlife Service has the responsibility of
listening to local voices, that's true, but also
a national voice. It's the federal agency and
the U .S. Fish and Wildlife Service doesn't just
serve Montanans. The U .S. Fish and Wildlife
Service serves all U .S. citizens. And from a
nationwide perspective, there was overwhelming
support for gray wolves to be reintroduced into
Yellowstone to restore a population of the Greater
Yellowstone ecosystem that counted for recovery
of the species. Overwhelming support. The local
agencies were not interested in engaging. Montana
Fish, Wife and Parks, Idaho Fish and Game, Wyoming
Game and Fish Department, they didn't want to
touch this thing with a 10 -foot pole. because
it is controversial. Grey Wolf recovery, Grey
Wolf work is controversial. There is a provision
of the law that says the Fish and Wildlife Service
should go to great lengths to try to recruit
the state game agencies to do the work called
for by the law. And the Fish and Wildlife Service
did that and the state said no thanks. So the
states were no help. at all at the beginning,
and for good reason. Why in the world would they
want to take on this bigger project when they
don't have to? So there was a local voice that
was split 50 -50, let's say, a strong nationwide
voice saying, go forward. They say the game agencies
weren't the least bit interested. They were going
to let the Fish and Wildlife Service and the
National Park Service take all the shots. But
please know, Ed, this work was being done in
Yellowstone National Park and surrounding national
forests. It was being done in national forests
in Idaho, and the national forests are of concern
to citizens nationwide, not just folks in Idaho.
There was tremendous support for this program
when you consider the context in which it was
crafted. And that is a nationwide context, not
just a Wyoming perspective. And then you say,
well, gee whiz, then the nation was putting on
Wyoming. And I would say, no, no, it's not. But
quite often we as a country will move forward
with a big voice, even though there's a smaller
voice expressing opposition. And my 14 years
in the state legislature, I thought long and
hard about what constitutes good governance.
And here's what I concluded. It's rising to the
challenge each and every day of balancing the
tension between private needs and public needs.
And sometimes we err on behalf of private needs.
And sometimes we err on behalf of public needs.
And it's a balancing act. It's a zigzag. You're
tacking left and you're tacking right. But if
you're making progress forward, that's what you
should hope for with your governor, balancing
the tension between private public balancing
the tension between states and the nation balancing
the tension between a local voice and a national
voice and with wolf recovery I will go to my
grave believing this with wolf recovery when
the United States Fish and Wildlife Service chooses
to engage based on the best science they do a
hell of a good job yeah You know I view the whole
thing of that whole interesting because you hear
that that cliche argument a lot of you know Why
are New Yorkers telling Wyomingites what they
ought to do and you're you you hit the nail on
the head man I you know We you and I living in
the West we care about what happens to the Gettysburg
battlefield We care about what happens to the
monuments in Washington DC. We don't live there
And so, yeah, people in New York and the East
Coast have just as much right to care about what
happens to federal land and federal species in
the West as we do. I would only qualify that
slightly. OK, I can choose to care about Gettysburg.
Yes, if I do choose to act on that concern, my
voice should count just as much as someone who
lives right outside the setting. I don't I don't
have to engage, but I can't. You can't, right?
And it's that option to choose to engage that
connects us as a country. We're all in this together
on issues that transcend state boundaries. I
do not oppose state management of wildlife for
the most part. I have been blessed, Ed, to work
with state fishing game agencies all over the
country. They do beautiful work. Yeah, for sure.
But they're not as good as the United States
Fish and Wildlife Service at dealing with imperiled
species. and species that have ranges that transcend
state boundaries. Yep. Okay, yeah. That's why
migratory birds went under the U .S. Fish and
Wildlife Service. Exactly right. Exactly, because
the states couldn't deal with it. It's a nationwide
issue. Yeah, exactly, yeah. Want to touch stay
on this topic just a little bit longer because
some of the special agents that I know that I
worked with You know, we're actually assigned
to go up there and provide like security and
protection to the wolves that were in those you
know orientation or habituation pens or whatever
they were called I can't remember but So that
50 % that was opposed there were there was a
group of people in there that there was some
concern that there could be violence against
Park Service or Fish and Wildlife Service employees
and or the animals is that key? Is that overblown
or can you describe kind of what that was like?
Was that a real fear of yours or? Yeah, the the
the pins were called acclimation pin acclimation.
Yeah in Yellowstone. We did maintain the animals
in captivity for about 80 days to attenuate to
dim their memory of home so that upon release
they would be more likely to exhibit restrictive
movements. Okay, anyway, of course, of course,
and from the National Park Service's perspective,
Yellowstone National Park can do amazing things.
When the staff at Yellowstone National Park puts
its mind to a task, they get that task done ahead
of schedule, under budget. And they have a strong
law enforcement component. The backcountry rangers
that work in Yellowstone are top shelf conservation
officers. So it only made sense that you go to
the nth degree to ensure the security of the
animals while they were confined during acclimation.
Would animals have been poached if we hadn't
done that? I don't know. Have those of us who've
worked with wolves long enough been threatened?
You bet. But most of us have had our lives threatened.
Are the threats credible? Probably not. But do
we have a long history in this country of knuckleheads
sometimes taking matters to their own hands?
Of course we do. There's knuckleheads the world
over. There have been knuckleheads since homo
sapiens have wandered the planet for the last
300 ,000 years. Knuckleheads are just a fact
of life. And so anticipating that, you know,
gee, was knuckleheads a reality. Why not? Why
not make sure? Because then if something happened,
You can always say, no, Ed, we had 24 -hour coverage,
pal. That guy snuck in, and despite our best
efforts, was able to conduct an unlawful activity.
Or no, we busted his sorry ass. And because we
were out, so we just, we left no stone unturned.
Awesome. Okay. Cool. Talk about your first, the
first efforts, like once those first wolves were
released. Did it meet your expectations? Did
it exceed your expectations in terms of success?
And how did that go when those first wolves were
let loose from the acclimation pens? Yeah, there
were a couple of surprises. Overall, the restoration
effort matured as I expected and was expected
by many others because Yellowstone represents
supremely suitable habitat that's highly secure.
But before I get to the two surprises from Yellowstone,
it is also important for folks to note the work
in Idaho, which was going on at the same time,
also was wildly successful. There were just two
subtle differences between the two reintroductions.
The work in Idaho entailed immediate release.
Animal caught in Canada, taken to Idaho, taken
to the end of a logging road, and let go. There
was no acclamation. In Yellowstone, we adopted
a slightly different approach. We acclimated,
as I said, for about 80 to 90 days in an attempt
to attenuate a wolf's tendency to home. Like
most mammals, gray wolves, they tend to home,
and so if you left them to their own devices,
they're going to drift north. And when you look
at Yellowstone, the very best habitat for gray
wolves was the northern quarter of the park,
which, as the crow flies, is about I'll say 50
or 60 miles from Livingston, not 60, but say
40, 50 miles from Livingston, Montana and beyond.
And we thought, well, gee whiz, we don't want
them going north of Livingston. What can we do
to slow them down? What can we do to route them
to the northern part of the park through restricted
movements? That's why in Yellowstone, we acclimated.
In Idaho, we didn't. Idaho population did really
well. It jumped like a rocket ship. It actually
grew more quickly than the population in Yellowstone.
Both worked really well here are the two surprises
from Yellowstone The first related to the release
when we opened the gate The wolves didn't come
out, huh? For many days they didn't come out,
huh? And we thought huh This is really odd and
then we started thinking about it and it was
clear that they didn't come out Because they
rarely went to the portion of the pin the pins
covered about an acre. They weren't that big
but The wolves rarely went to the area near the
pen During the entire time they were in captivity
and and and it was clear ed They were avoiding
that because that's where we came from. Oh the
gate into the pen Yeah, okay, I'd meet in and
then we'd leave but we kept coming and going
from that door Right, and they don't like that.
They don't like being around us. We make them
nervous I don't maybe we smell bad, but where
we're shifty It can't be counted. Oh, that's
true. Can't be trusted. Can't be trusted. Okay,
so imagine you and I go to the pin. We open the
gate and we leave. And if the wolves never get
near the gate, they might not think anything,
right? I was of the mind that they really didn't
know what going out meant. So here's one thing
that happened in captivity. They would bite at
the chain link, not near the door, but they'd
bite on the chain link as far from the doors
they could so that they got this notion in their
mind that, oh my gosh, even in the presence of
my determined biting, I can't get out. Right.
So they're stuck, right? So it's on their mind
that they're stuck. They don't want to go near
the door. And I don't think they understood.
I see chain link. I see an open door. I seen
chain link. Oh, I could go out that they didn't
know what we did. So shit, this isn't working.
Five, six, seven days passed. We went. Back to
the pins and we cut a hole in the fence in the
portion of the pin Where they spent most of the
time we called it the comfort zone. Yeah shit,
man. They still didn't come out They're running
right by this hole Right in the comfort zone.
I thought well shit. Oh dear man. We didn't make
the hole big enough So after a couple days of
this we went back to the place and we took out
the whole frickin panel And it was then that
they came out and boom they were gone. It was
I was surprised that it took them Many days to
get out that was your surprise. Okay second surprise
Nearly upon release And I think it's because
gray wolves are pretty smart nearly upon release
They were very observable Hmm There are parts
of Yellowstone that offer great big view sheds.
Yeah, and you could sit and watch gray wolves
live out their lives in places like Lamar Valley.
To this day, gray wolves are highly sought after
as a large mammal in the park to observe. They
and gray wolves and grizzly bears are probably
the two top species to see in the wild in Yellowstone.
We had not expected no one, I don't remember
any conversation about the observability of gray
wolves being keen. Upon release and and the reason
I think they're so observable They rather quickly
come to conclude. It doesn't matter if I hear
that car door slam It doesn't matter if I hear
those voices a quarter mile away They have never
represented any kind of threat to me. So I'm
gonna ignore Yeah, and it's a consequence of
Yellowstone being highly secure Yellowstone offering
a prey population that allows gray wolves to
occur at a reasonable density And Yellowstone
offers these great big view sheds where you can
see across a big landscape and you can watch
gray wolves chasing algae. We didn't expect they'd
be slow to come out. We didn't expect they'd
be so observable. Everything else went as planned
ahead of schedule under budget. Nice. And did
they stay true to the area? Or did they stray
from the park? One of the groups stuck around
and really seemed to be impressed by acclimation.
Two other groups wandered more widely. Management
actions got involved, so it's hard to know where
they would have ended up if we had left them
alone. But we know for sure when you look at
post -release movements, on average, the wolves
released in Idaho went a great deal further and
mostly north compared to wolves in Yellowstone
who traveled much, much shorter distances. The
best measure I can give you about the success
of the approach in Idaho and Yellowstone It's
simple within about eight years or thereabouts
the Idaho population was a hundred and growing
Okay, that's great 37 wolves released in Idaho
and within just a few short years five to ten
years They had given rise to a population that
was growing that was stronger than a hundred
animals. Okay. Yeah, similarly in in Yellowstone
Within about ten years we were pushing at that
hundred animal mark And I had said to Doug Smith
and I still believe this to the to this day in
Yellowstone we let 31 animals go from Canada
and Idaho let 37 go I don't think Ed The first
batch was 14 strong that we let go in Yellowstone.
The second batch was 17 strong. I Don't think
we needed the second second batch of 17. Okay,
the first batch A 14 probably would have been
sufficient. We certainly, there was no disagreement
after the second round of rain reductions involving
those 17 additional wolves from Canada. No one
was arguing for a third round. Really? Okay.
It worked really, really well. The Fish and Wildlife
Service did a heck of a job. The National Park
Service did a heck of a job. And the landscapes,
the wild landscapes of central Idaho and Yellowstone
did great jobs too. Well, part of that was there
was plenty of elk, right? Lots of elk. Prey biomass
is critical. You know, gray wolves aren't complicated.
In areas where human cause mortality is low,
wolf population dynamics are largely decided
by prey biomass. In other words, if they're not
getting shot and poisoned by us, if they've got
enough food to eat, they're going to do quite
well. How did the you know, the the killing of
wolf 10 was kind of a famous moment I think is
the first poaching incident of one of the released
wolves in Yellowstone How did that impact the
kind of the outlook of the program at the time?
Do you recall and how did because I believe wolf
10 was one of the breeding pair of an important
release group of wolves, right? You know was
a flashpoint of concern and I got a Shout out
to one of your colleagues from the ranks of special
agents a guy named Tim Iker Tim Iker was he's
been on the show Yeah, Tim did a hell of a job.
Yeah, making sure that Chad McKittrick I Paid
the price. Yeah McKittrick Shot skinned and beheaded
number 10 for no good reason His his buddy who
was with him at the time a guy named dusty Steinmeisel
was reported to have said that Chad said, that's
a fucking wolf, I'm gonna kill it. And he did,
shot it, skinned it, beheaded it, for no good
reason, and Eicher busted him. Beautiful work
by Tim. From my perspective as the senior field
biologist, it drew attention to the need to continue
to press forward with good field work, because
we had so few animals involved in the program
at that time, there was no guarantee of success.
There were so few wolves involved at the time
that number ten was killed. Let's say there might
have been Ten ten wolves involved at the program
ten ten was killed right at the beginning of
the work, right? That that I was certain That
we needed to go to great lengths to ensure the
survival of every wolf We knew about right and
and so the response to the poaching of ten was
to redouble efforts in the field To promote survival
This created some problem with the United States
Fish and Wildlife Service. Hold that thought.
I came from Northeastern North Carolina to run
the Yellowstone Project, and I was the only person
in the nation at that time that had run a wolf
restoration project based on reintroductions.
And that was the red wolf work in the southeastern
United States. And if you understand the southeast,
it's small landscapes, a lot of private land.
There was no way you could responsibly let red
wolves go and not have a very, very, very intensive
field program. We were out all the time making
sure that wolves weren't creating problems for
people. Very, very intensive management. I brought
that mindset to Yellowstone and the mindset served
the Yellowstone project very well at the beginning
because there are so few wolves involved. They
deserved great care on our part to ensure their
survival. In contrast, My US Fish and Wildlife
Service colleagues were more More willing to
just let things be hmm They were more willing.
It's not a big deal Mike. They'll figure it out.
We don't need to worry about this They'll figure
it out, and I kept saying that's bullshit. That's
absolute bullshit. You put them out there We
put them out there. They're our responsibility.
There's only nine or ten or eleven of them everybody
counts It's absolutely bullshit to walk away
from the challenge of intensive field work now
you think well Why was this such a big deal?
I? Didn't work for the US Fish and Wildlife Service
that at time right I was wearing a green uniform
for the National Park Service affecting important
field work To advance the survival of wolves
from Yellowstone outside the park, right? It
was not something the Fish and Wildlife Service
was predisposed to imagine as essential. And
for me, it was like water on a duck's back. This
is what you do. At the beginning of a restoration
project, based on reintroductions, you go to
great lengths to promote survival because they're
your responsibility. The art form of restoration
through reintroductions is to know when you're
back away. When you've got five or six animals
on the ground. Oh my gosh They're all very important
when you got 55 or 65 now everybody's not quite
so important Then you'd been the back away a
bit and let nature take its course. It's a balancing
act and I was convinced With the killing of number
ten. We certainly were not where we would need
to be to justify Yeah walking away. Yeah, so
his death prompted a great deal of intensive
field work on our part for another year or two
to ensure the animals that were left succeeded.
Well, I think, you know, one of the examples
of how those great links he went to was at the
time Wolf 10 was killed, his mate wasn't too
far away and she was like super pregnant. I think
she gave birth the day or two later after his
death, right? Yeah. I mean, Ed, she might have
already, but you're right. She was saddled with
a litter. We knew that, that nothing else would
explain what she was doing. And so here she is
by herself. Her mate's dead, and most folks would
know this, but all of this took place on the
northern flanks of a spot called Mount Maurice.
Mount Maurice, it's a rather modest mountain
in Montana, no big deal, rounded at the top,
but Mount Maurice sits on the southeastern flank
of Red Lodge, Montana. I could sit in my hotel
room in the Motel 8 in Red Lodge. put my headphones
on, stick my antenna out the window of the hotel
and hear their radio signals. Whoa, okay. They
were within spitting distance of Red Lodge. Yeah.
So when he's dead and she's not going anywhere
because she's got a den, the idea of not intervening,
the idea of of not catching those wolves and
bringing them back. It's bullshit. Of course
you intervene. You get mom, you get the puppies,
and you bring them back to the park, which is
exactly what we did. Perfect example of that
intensive management at the early stages of the
reintroduction, right? And I would be the first
to admit, when you engage in those kinds of field
activities, there's no room for error. So let's
imagine, Ed, you and I are doing this work and
we catch mom. And we know it's mom we see your
teats. We can express milk from her teats. We
know she's still nursing. We've got mom But we
don't get the puppies. Yeah at that point all
we could do it would be let mom go Right and
while it's not that hard to catch a naive wolf
Once they've been caught once or twice they get
pretty smart So if you got your hands on mom
boy, the the clock is ticking to get get the
puppies. It is admittedly a high stakes operation.
It was always my attitude is it will fuck it.
We won't fail. Yeah. How did you find those?
That's okay. This is a beautiful thing about
a podcast is you can say whatever you want. Well,
you just can't afford to fail. And we did. How
the heck did you find those puppies after you
caught the female? Oh, we knew where she was
spending her time. uh from the radio collar right
we we flew and we we'd circle the plane right
above her and she's right down there and and
that's the other thing important to note these
these wolves at this time every single one of
them's collared right well mom was the puppies
weren't but all the other of course the puppies
weren't yeah everybody that we released or radio
collar sure sure right so we knew where she was
keeping the puppies and we had time wasn't An
obstacle we knew we had a week or two or three
before the puppies would start moving around
to any degree Yeah, so we we we set up mom to
increase the odds that we could catch her when
we wanted to catch her So we caught her and basically
walked right to the spot where we expected the
puppies to be and there they were and we grabbed
them all and taken back to Yellowstone Park and
put them in a pen and and at that point had the
aim was to Excuse me. The aim was simply to grow
them up To 35 40 45 pounds so they were big enough
to go toe -to -toe with any coyote and you're
gonna let him go again interesting very cool,
but in that in that intensive effort you ended
up kind of like it was a was a A very purposeful
success, right? I mean how many puppies did you?
Retrieve from her den there outside the park
eight so now you go you lose the wolf outside
the park But you go back into the park now with
nine wolves that you're going to get back into
the park, try to get oriented to staying in the
park or being safer. So that was, in a sense,
a very well managed success out of a not failure,
but a horrible event where you lost this important
wolf. It was simply the thing to do. And I'm
of the mind that if you've given proper thought
to something and it clearly is the thing to do.
And you've done the best you can and it doesn't
work out Because you can never guarantee success
you could just go to the great degree to promote
success Then I could say Ed. I'm sorry pal. We
did the best we could right we got six puppies
We saw two run away, and we couldn't catch them
that the key to this kind of operation Because
you can't leave Young wolves on their own that
yeah, and she was still nursing so these little
bitty guys The key is to simply be smart about
how you do it and If you can't get it done properly
you admit defeat and you you let animals go if
you and I done it We I knew we had one ace in
the hole Let mom go. Yeah. Yeah, let mom go now
what she probably would have done in the presence
of that degree of harassment We catch her we
hang on to her for 12 18 hours. Ah shit, man.
We still don't have the public I'll let mom go
she probably would have been so bothered by all
of that, she would have moved the litter. Yeah.
And it's not the end of the world for gray wolves
to move puppies from here to there, but all things
being equal, you don't want to be the reason
that she's moving them. 100%. We did the best
we could in each case where we had to intervene
so. The Rose Creek pack wasn't the only, we did
the same thing to the Soda Butte pack. It's a
different story, but the same idea. It was even
a little more complicated with those guys because
there were more wolves involved. But they were
in a bad spot. They had a litter. They had a
den. We can't leave them here. This is an accident
waiting to happen. We don't have the luxury of
saying, oh, there's 202 wolves. Tell them if
we have to shoot those guys, it doesn't matter
to the population. We couldn't say that. And
so each and every time we went out and did this,
intensive work, we were just as well prepared
as we could be, and willing to say we did the
best we could. Nobody can fault you. You really,
truly, sincerely did the best you could as a
public employee. Who's going to fault you? And
if they do, to hell with them. Yeah, screw them.
Yeah, that comes into a whole other discussion
we could have some day. You and me about how
public employees tend to be punching bags for
the rest of the world Yeah, I never saw a $400
hammer. I Never saw a $400 hammer either People
that busted their ass on behalf of this country
and I was proud for a time to be one of them
You know what? I you know you and I worked for
different parts of the same Department of Interior
and and different parts of the interior and Yeah,
I totally agree. Throughout my career, you know,
there were maybe 10 % duds here and there because
every place you work is going to have some duds,
but 90 to 95 % of the employees I worked with
were conscientious, hardcore people who cared
about saving money for taxpayers and doing a
good job. That's exactly right. 100%. So we have
a lot to talk about, Mike, and I don't want to...
abuse my time with you, but just briefly, let's
wrap up on the Yellowstone Wolves. There's one
thing I want to touch on with you though, and
you've already touched on this a little bit,
but how do wolf populations interact with their
habitat and the prey species? So, you know, there's
a lot of talk out there. You've heard them. We've
all heard the myth that wolves are destroying
hunting opportunities for elk hunters and deer
hunters. Can you just talk a little bit about
how they do interact and affect prey populations
and prey behavior, and then how you measured
that? Sure. Gray wolves have done very well in
the northern Rocky Mountains. Because of the
reintroductions in Idaho and Yellowstone, you
now have three populations that interact. Idaho,
northwestern Montana, Yellowstone. From a numerical
perspective, it's been a wildly successful program.
And some time ago, and we can talk about how
delisting, how the lifting of federal protections
actually came about. It's a fascinating story
about the interplay between science and politics.
Yeah, frustrating. But in the Northern Rocky
Mountains today, and let's assume that conservatively
between the Greddy Yellowstone in northwestern
Montana and Idaho, there's, say, 2 ,000 wolves
on the ground. But despite that number of animals,
they don't kill many livestock. As I've said
now for the third time, it's the atypical wolf
that kills livestock. In Montana, as an example,
on average, gray wolves each year are going to
kill about 50 head of cattle. say 50 head of
sheep. If numbers aren't right, they put you
in the universe. There are, between cattle and
sheep, you know, well over two million of those
animals in the state of Montana. And we've mentioned
on this podcast before, just if you look at USDA
records, the cause of death of domestic animals
out in the wild is not predation, it's disease.
Yeah, but, you know, so gray wolves are not influencing
the... Viability of ranching in the yeah in the
Rocky Mountain West similarly when you look at
gray wolves and and native prey Elk and deer
for example all three states Wyoming, Montana,
Idaho Consistently say she was come to Wyoming.
You got we got record numbers of elk and deer
and record hunting opportunities Montana there's
more deer and elk in the state today than there
were before gray wolves were introduced There
is no evidence at all that gray wolves are impacting
native prey populations to such a degree that
hunting is now an unsuccessful endeavor in the
state of Montana. It's not. That said, we know
that gray wolves can affect prey population dynamics,
and certainly in small areas. And so, Ed, it
might be true that your favorite honey hole,
as a kid you hunted it 30 years ago, and my gosh,
you know, and now it's harder. And that may be
the case, but there's still great opportunities
to hunt big game in Montana. The opportunities
may not be distributed the way they were historically.
We know in the state of Montana, for example,
that many of the elk management units that are
in wolf country support more elk than the state
would wish. There is tremendous opportunity for
big game hunting in Montana and Wyoming and Idaho.
Those are the facts. Now this is a fact, too.
Despite that, no significant impact to big game
hunting, no significant impact to the livestock
industry. Despite that, the level of violence
perpetuated on gray wolves in the northern Rocky
Mountains is stunning. Yeah. I never expected
it. And it is allowed by laws and regulations
passed by elected officials and enacted by appointed
officials, wildlife commissioners for example,
that allow excessive needless killing of gray
wolves, ostensibly because there's too many.
And then I would say to my colleagues in the
Senate, I said, wait a minute, there's too many
gray wolves in Montana, huh? Why? And that they'd
cite livestock and big I said hang on hang on
hang on our Department of Livestock has the data
our fishing game Department has the data The
data they have don't support your claims of conflict
and and so I've concluded Ed that this Ridiculous
amount of violence needless killing Is a consequence
that decision -makers don't give a shit. Yeah,
they don't give a shit that they are On average,
I would have you believe ecological illiterates.
They don't know that predation is a very important
ecological process. And consequently, they don't
give a shit about predators. They don't give
a shit. One little story about how much disregard
they will exhibit. The last bill I brought in
the Montana Senate, it was a simple little bill.
A little bill that said you can't torture coyotes
to death. Good bill. couldn't you can't torture
cars today you can't run him down with the snowmobile
and run them over repeatedly to kill him i bring
the bill to the senate fishing game committee
i was the ranking minority member at the time
and i knew what my committee members were going
to do it was table the bill was tabled on a party
line vote republic said i was a shitty idea might
table this bill my democratic colleagues and
i don't know we should pass it to the full sense
of the bill gets tabled And before I go any further,
Ed, please know, all the Bill said was, you can't
run him over with a snowmobile as a form of torture.
You can still hunt him with a snowmobile. You
can still run that little coyote to the point
where she can't take another step. She's laying
in the snow, exhausted, looking up at you. At
that point, Ed, you gotta kill that animal in
some humane manner. It said nothing about how
many animals you could kill. It simply said you
can't torture him to death. So the bills table
in committee as okay fine fuck it. I knew that
was gonna happen So as a sitting senator was
my right I could say to the full Senate Gee whiz
guys are fishing game committee made a mistake.
They table this important bill I move that we
take that bill away from that committee and bring
it to the full Senate for consideration Love
it. I made what's called a blast motion. I'm
gonna blast the bill out of the committee So
here's how that works. I stand up and I say to
the chairman of the day, Mr. Chairman, I move
to remove Senate Bill 221 from Senate Fish and
Game and put it on our agenda for tomorrow. Thank
you, Mr. Chairman. At that point, the chairman
says, Senator Phillips, and I have the chance
to take 15, 20, 30 seconds to speak about the
procedural motion. I'm not lobbying for the bill
so much. I'm lobbying for the idea that needs
to be discussed. And I said, thank you, Mr. Chairman,
members of the Senate. I hope you'll support
this procedural motion. Senate bill 221, similar
bill to prevent torture of coyotes. If we knew,
folks, if we knew that we had a kid, a young
boy in our neighborhood using his bicycle to
run over the neighborhood cats, we'd be concerned
for that boy's mental health. Montanans are better
than torturing animals to death. We need to talk
about this bill. Please support this motion.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Nice. I sit down. It's
a non -dematable motion. We got to vote. And
I had I had whip I I told my Republican friends.
This is coming. Please support me I'd served
with many of these guys for 14 years. I played
poker with them. I drank their whiskey As if
you know help me out here guys, yeah, I'm not
saying you got a vote for the bill But at least
have the discussion. Yeah That bill that motion.
I'm sorry that motion Died on a party line vote
18 Democrats said sure we ought to talk about
that idea and 32 Democrats said no It's okay
After the session ended that day. I went up to
a friend of mine got him Fred Thomas. Okay, red
was the majority leader Republican majority leader
friend of mine. I said Fred Michael Lord, dude
You couldn't even throw me a bone on this perceive
what my gosh man. He said yeah Mike You were
really looking out for us with that idea. I said
Fred. What kind of people do you represent? Yeah,
I would want you to stand in support of torturing
coyotes to death At that point I had to walk
away from Fred, but from that point forward,
Ed, for the last month of my service as a Montana
senator, I could not pray with my colleagues.
Every day when the Senate comes together as a
full Senate, the committee of the whole Senate,
we do two things to kick off the work. We say
a prayer, typically a Judeo -Christian prayer,
and we pledge allegiance to the flag. From that
day forward I would step into the anteroom When
the prayer was being delivered I could not Cotton
their hypocrisy any longer. I don't know what
God worth worshipping would want you to torture
one of her creations When the prayer was I stood
the answer. I was polite. I didn't make a fanfare.
I'm out there minding my own business Yeah, I
could hear the prayer and I'd step back into
the chamber notably on the Republican side of
the aisle and pledge allegiance to the flag,
and then I'd go sit down. And it was so hard
for me, and I'd served with these guys for years.
I could no longer bring myself to pray with them
because they couldn't see the wisdom of standing
against torturing coyotes to death. Well, I think
we're seeing the same thing, perpetuating itself
in the West. There's been some perfect examples
in the news of wolves being tortured. And like
you said, just pretty violent aggressive ways
that people are going after wolves. It's not
like they're hunting wolves. They're killing
wolves, you know, torturing and killing. There's,
there's, it's just, it's a degree of needless
violence. I never anticipated. I have not ever
stood in opposition to lethal removal of gray
wolves to resolve a conflict. At some point,
if you've tried all these other things and you
still have a problem, I don't even stand in opposition
to, to fur trapping. We sapiens have used fur
for as long as we walk this planet, call it 300
,000 years. And if I'm going to go out and shoot
a ring neck pheasant, because I like bird hunting,
I can't criticize somebody for being a responsible
for Trapper. Yeah. No, it's responsible. That
is the key. And, you know, a friend of mine describes
it as hunting is the process of going out and,
you know, tracking, stalking and then humanely
killing. It's not. It's not some sort of thrill
kill. It's not some sort of joyous activity that
you go out and you laugh and you giggle the more
the animal suffers. I would say to folks that
are listening, gray wolves are really good at
what they do when they get a toehold. Gray wolves
are going to persist in the Northern Rocky Mountains.
But we need a different collection of elected
and appointed officials that will change the
rules and regulations. So needless killing. Isn't
so commonly Taking place Yeah, I think you may
have just answered the next question I was going
to ask you is a I think my Assumption from hearing
you talk is that you know your overall thoughts
on success are it's been successful Well very
much so yeah very much so and and and I will
say in ways that at least one way that was never
imagined, and it speaks to my current outfit,
the Turner Endangered Species Fund. People will
ask me, you know, what's the value of gray wolves
and Yellowstone, and lots of people cite Yellowstone,
and lots of people speak about trophic cascades
and the ecological consequences of wolf predation.
Those are fine answers. For me, the significance
of Yellowstone's wolf project is that it gave
rise to bigger ideas, that the Yellowstone Wolf
Project was a birthing ground for bigger ideas
that might never have surfaced if that project
had not gone forward. The best example I can
give you is the Turner Endangered Species Fund
that Ted and I co -founded back in. Conceptually,
intellectually, we were connected in 1995 and
1996. We actually functionalized that connection
in 1997. Ted was motivated by the inspiration
he gained by many things, including the Yellowstone
Wolf Project. I was motivated by my experience
with red wolves and gray wolves and private land,
because ultimately what the Turner Endangered
Species Fund aimed to do was illustrate that
private land could be managed to be beachheads
of security for species listed under the Endangered
Species Act. Ted and I came together. on this
common ground of making sure everybody understood
private land can really matter. On purpose, it
can really matter. And since day one, the Turner
Endangered Species Fund has stood as the most
significant private effort in the world to use
reintroductions of imperiled species to restore
viable populations to private land, populations
that count toward federal recovery objectives.
That is all a consequence. to some extent, the
inspiration that Ted drew from the Yellowstone
Wolf Project. Very, very cool. The more private
public collaboration is needed because it's always
successful. Okay, Mike I think that is the perfect
way to end our discussion on the the gray wolves
in the Yellowstone area the northern Rockies
we're gonna split this episode into two episodes
and When we come back next week, we're gonna
jump to red wolves and Mexican wolves and Colorado
wolves Okay, everybody. Thanks for tuning in
to part one of our interview with Mike Phillips.
We'll see you next time for part two Thanks for
listening Nature's Secret Service is written
and produced by me Ed Newcomer and is co -produced
by the DHTV team here at California State University
Dominguez Hills. Follow us on social media and
connect with us online at naturessecretservice
.com.