WEBVTT 00:00:00.140 --> 00:00:02.540 If you want to learn more about the topics of 00:00:02.540 --> 00:00:06.219 today's episode, visit the podcast website at 00:00:06.219 --> 00:00:09.300 naturessecretservice .com. Thanks for listening. 00:00:42.900 --> 00:00:46.280 Okay everybody, here we go. This is Nature's 00:00:46.280 --> 00:00:48.020 Secret Service, the podcast that puts you in 00:00:48.020 --> 00:00:50.140 the room with the men and women of wildlife law 00:00:50.140 --> 00:00:53.219 enforcement. I'm Ed Newcomer, your host, former 00:00:53.219 --> 00:00:55.159 special agent with the U .S. Fish and Wildlife 00:00:55.159 --> 00:00:58.600 Service, and we are Midway through our season 00:00:58.600 --> 00:01:02.890 on wolves. I am super excited about our guest 00:01:02.890 --> 00:01:07.090 today. We have Mike Phillips with us. Mike is, 00:01:07.290 --> 00:01:09.170 and I'm going to say it, he's probably going 00:01:09.170 --> 00:01:12.189 to laugh and be more humble, but this guy's a 00:01:12.189 --> 00:01:14.870 legend in the world of wolf reintroduction. In 00:01:14.870 --> 00:01:18.109 the earliest part of Mike's career, he was focusing 00:01:18.109 --> 00:01:21.269 on gray wolves in Minnesota, Michigan, and Alaska, 00:01:21.329 --> 00:01:24.030 but he went on to lead the effort to reintroduce 00:01:24.030 --> 00:01:26.290 red wolves in the southeastern U .S., which was 00:01:26.290 --> 00:01:29.030 really the first effort to restore a species. 00:01:29.239 --> 00:01:33.280 declared extinct in the wild. In the mid 1990s, 00:01:33.439 --> 00:01:35.459 he worked for the National Park Service in charge 00:01:35.459 --> 00:01:37.799 of wolf reintroduction in Yellowstone National 00:01:37.799 --> 00:01:41.540 Park. He is the co -founder and executive director 00:01:41.540 --> 00:01:44.519 of the Turner Endangered Species Fund, and he's 00:01:44.519 --> 00:01:47.200 played a major role in Mexican gray wolf recovery 00:01:47.200 --> 00:01:50.159 in the southwestern U .S. and in the effort to 00:01:50.159 --> 00:01:52.900 restore wild wolves to Colorado. Mike, thanks 00:01:52.900 --> 00:01:54.959 so much for being on the program. I really appreciate 00:01:54.959 --> 00:01:57.560 it. Well, Ed, thank you. You could have shortened 00:01:57.560 --> 00:02:00.219 that to simply say, Mike is a glutton for punishment. 00:02:02.159 --> 00:02:04.560 Hey, the other thing I forgot to mention, of 00:02:04.560 --> 00:02:07.280 course, is that you are a you have a long history 00:02:07.280 --> 00:02:10.439 as an elected official. You served in the Montana 00:02:10.439 --> 00:02:13.159 State Legislature as a representative and later 00:02:13.159 --> 00:02:16.419 as the senator. And so you have a huge body of 00:02:16.419 --> 00:02:18.379 public service, which I want to make sure we 00:02:18.379 --> 00:02:21.379 recognize and say thank you on behalf of myself 00:02:21.379 --> 00:02:23.719 and all Americans for everything you've done 00:02:23.719 --> 00:02:26.199 for not only your state, but also this country. 00:02:26.340 --> 00:02:28.259 Thank you. Well, you're very kind. I'll tell 00:02:28.259 --> 00:02:31.800 you what anybody who works for the U .S. Fish 00:02:31.800 --> 00:02:33.860 and Wildlife Service and endeavors to protect 00:02:33.860 --> 00:02:35.979 endangered species is a glutton for punishment 00:02:35.979 --> 00:02:38.719 to some extent. And you know, I can claim, I 00:02:38.719 --> 00:02:43.939 can claim to have worked intimately with the 00:02:43.939 --> 00:02:47.319 two species that really piss people off. Gray 00:02:47.319 --> 00:02:50.500 wolves piss people off for sometimes good reasons, 00:02:50.879 --> 00:02:54.080 but... Oftentimes not not such good reasons and 00:02:54.080 --> 00:02:56.680 prairie dogs prairie dogs piss people off man 00:02:56.680 --> 00:02:58.639 And we've done a lot of work with prairie dogs 00:02:58.639 --> 00:03:00.599 over the last many years. We have trans look 00:03:00.599 --> 00:03:04.939 we being team Turner have translocated over 15 00:03:04.939 --> 00:03:08.719 ,000 prairie dogs Ed to establish suitable habitat 00:03:08.719 --> 00:03:11.860 for black -footed ferrets Ferrets are an obligate 00:03:11.860 --> 00:03:14.039 carnivore and prairie dogs. If you don't have 00:03:14.039 --> 00:03:18.669 prairie dogs, you will not have ferrets I know 00:03:18.669 --> 00:03:21.750 that two species that really frustrate people, 00:03:21.949 --> 00:03:25.009 I know them well, gray wolves and prairie dogs. 00:03:25.909 --> 00:03:28.009 That is fascinating. And I'm going to add a little 00:03:28.009 --> 00:03:31.030 bit in here too, because I grew up in Colorado. 00:03:31.090 --> 00:03:33.229 I know prairie dogs and prairie dog issues well. 00:03:34.990 --> 00:03:38.650 And it's the two species that it's like, I think 00:03:38.650 --> 00:03:41.669 the drama is a little overblown. The hatred of 00:03:41.669 --> 00:03:44.409 the two species is out of place. So here's a 00:03:44.409 --> 00:03:46.490 little story about being overblown and underblown. 00:03:46.590 --> 00:03:49.050 Sure. When I was in the state legislature, we 00:03:49.050 --> 00:03:51.949 were proud, this is years ago now, proud to pass 00:03:51.949 --> 00:03:55.550 the Montana Sage Grouse Conservation Act. And 00:03:55.550 --> 00:03:57.729 the states were coming together, the industry 00:03:57.729 --> 00:04:00.370 was, the oil and gas industry and the agricultural 00:04:00.370 --> 00:04:03.310 industry, coming together to advance sage grouse 00:04:03.310 --> 00:04:05.710 conservation, to keep the need to list the species 00:04:05.710 --> 00:04:07.969 under the Endangered Species Act at arm's length. 00:04:08.430 --> 00:04:10.629 You can make the case that if the good work that 00:04:10.629 --> 00:04:13.599 would be called for by the act... is being done 00:04:13.599 --> 00:04:15.639 otherwise, then you don't need the Endangered 00:04:15.639 --> 00:04:17.720 Species Act. So I was proud to cast that vote. 00:04:18.100 --> 00:04:20.699 And then I was proud to vote for a $10 million 00:04:20.699 --> 00:04:24.180 appropriation to fund Montana's sage -grouse 00:04:24.180 --> 00:04:26.600 program. In the state of Montana, with fewer 00:04:26.600 --> 00:04:28.540 than a million residents, we have a smallish 00:04:28.540 --> 00:04:31.259 budget, a state budget. So for us, $10 million 00:04:31.259 --> 00:04:33.439 is a lot of money. It's a lot of money. And so 00:04:33.439 --> 00:04:36.079 for the sage -grouse, which has real potential... 00:04:36.269 --> 00:04:39.550 To compromise land use practices in the rural 00:04:39.550 --> 00:04:42.629 West sure this is related to ranching practices 00:04:42.629 --> 00:04:46.569 related to oil and gas development What the Endangered 00:04:46.569 --> 00:04:49.490 Species Act did was bring people together? To 00:04:49.490 --> 00:04:52.629 do good work to advance the persistence of the 00:04:52.629 --> 00:04:54.889 species without the heavy hammer of the act all 00:04:54.889 --> 00:04:58.290 that thought gray wolves on the other hand Which 00:04:58.290 --> 00:05:02.639 have little potential to disrupt? land use practices 00:05:02.639 --> 00:05:05.220 in the Rocky Mountain West. It is just a fact, 00:05:05.399 --> 00:05:08.040 Ed, that it's the atypical gray wolf that depredates 00:05:08.040 --> 00:05:11.300 on livestock. They do not have a big enough impact 00:05:11.300 --> 00:05:14.399 on big game to upset the big game hunting apple 00:05:14.399 --> 00:05:17.040 cart. Gray wolves are actually relatively easy 00:05:17.040 --> 00:05:19.680 to live with. They only require a modicum of 00:05:19.680 --> 00:05:22.199 accommodation. In contrast, the sage grouse, 00:05:22.279 --> 00:05:24.579 well, that's a tough puzzle. People came together 00:05:24.579 --> 00:05:26.920 to celebrate solving the sage grouse puzzle, 00:05:26.939 --> 00:05:29.519 which is tough. but what they do with gray wolves 00:05:29.519 --> 00:05:32.399 is scream to high heaven that, oh my gosh, the 00:05:32.399 --> 00:05:34.860 sky is falling if we've got gray wolves in Montana 00:05:34.860 --> 00:05:37.399 or gray wolves in Colorado. I was just struck 00:05:37.399 --> 00:05:40.220 that here's one species that really is a tough 00:05:40.220 --> 00:05:42.480 nut to crack, that being the sage grouse, and 00:05:42.480 --> 00:05:45.100 it brings people together. And another species 00:05:45.100 --> 00:05:48.060 that's easy to live with, the gray wolf, that 00:05:48.060 --> 00:05:50.740 divides people. It's just curious that there's 00:05:50.740 --> 00:05:53.980 this odd sense of what gray wolves mean, because 00:05:53.980 --> 00:05:57.589 it is not... It is not the reality. What people 00:05:57.589 --> 00:06:00.430 expect from Grey Wolves is not the reality in 00:06:00.430 --> 00:06:03.889 the woods. 100 percent. And you're not the only 00:06:03.889 --> 00:06:06.290 guest who's been on this season that has said 00:06:06.290 --> 00:06:10.490 something like that. And my view on it is a lot 00:06:10.490 --> 00:06:12.509 of what's going around about Grey Wolves seems 00:06:12.509 --> 00:06:15.470 to be what I refer to as information that has 00:06:15.470 --> 00:06:17.470 been passed from one person to the other over 00:06:17.470 --> 00:06:20.889 a beer at the local bar. It's it's just like 00:06:20.889 --> 00:06:23.860 it's. it goes back to like fairy tale times. 00:06:24.000 --> 00:06:28.819 It's rumor and fear -mongering and reactionary, 00:06:28.819 --> 00:06:31.720 you know, responses to an animal that has sharp 00:06:31.720 --> 00:06:34.680 teeth and big feet, you know? Well, prairie dogs 00:06:34.680 --> 00:06:38.839 have sharp teeth too, but I would have you believe 00:06:38.839 --> 00:06:43.459 that the problem on behalf of the gray wolf goes 00:06:43.459 --> 00:06:46.839 back even deeper into time. I think the real 00:06:46.839 --> 00:06:50.449 obstacle to wolf recovery has been and continues 00:06:50.449 --> 00:06:54.129 to be the mythical wolf. Oh yeah, 100 % red riding 00:06:54.129 --> 00:06:56.689 hood, little red riding hood. The sense that 00:06:56.689 --> 00:06:59.750 the species has some supernatural ability to 00:06:59.750 --> 00:07:04.009 exercise its predatory will on a whim, when in 00:07:04.009 --> 00:07:06.170 fact nothing could be further from the truth, 00:07:06.490 --> 00:07:09.370 unfortunately... The myth is as strong as it 00:07:09.370 --> 00:07:11.930 is wrong. Here's what we know about gray wolves 00:07:11.930 --> 00:07:14.949 and their predatory habits. And Ed, when I make 00:07:14.949 --> 00:07:17.569 reference to the natural history patterns for 00:07:17.569 --> 00:07:20.490 a gray wolf, know that they're undergirded by 00:07:20.490 --> 00:07:22.649 great science. The gray wolf is one of the most 00:07:22.649 --> 00:07:24.750 studied large mammals in the world. We know a 00:07:24.750 --> 00:07:26.810 lot about gray wolves. We know, for example, 00:07:27.529 --> 00:07:29.649 that most of the time when a gray wolf goes to 00:07:29.649 --> 00:07:32.449 work, and they got to go to work, they go to 00:07:32.449 --> 00:07:34.970 work every night, They go to work every night 00:07:34.970 --> 00:07:37.649 and their job is to put on average about five 00:07:37.649 --> 00:07:40.250 to seven pounds of food in their belly. They 00:07:40.250 --> 00:07:42.870 go many many days with no food but on average 00:07:42.870 --> 00:07:46.089 that's the amount they need to consume to maintain 00:07:46.089 --> 00:07:49.009 a good body condition and to be surviving and 00:07:49.009 --> 00:07:51.970 able to reproduce. And so for them the job is 00:07:51.970 --> 00:07:54.069 to put five to seven pounds of food in their 00:07:54.069 --> 00:07:57.050 belly every night. We know however most of the 00:07:57.050 --> 00:07:58.930 time when they go to work, when they go to hunt, 00:07:59.810 --> 00:08:03.139 they fail. We know that she was almost approaching 00:08:03.139 --> 00:08:06.920 eight times out of ten. They come up empty -pod. 00:08:07.319 --> 00:08:10.399 We know that hunting is a dangerous prospect. 00:08:10.779 --> 00:08:13.040 I did a study years ago, Ed, looking at about 00:08:13.040 --> 00:08:15.819 250 skulls, gray wolf skulls, that have been 00:08:15.819 --> 00:08:17.660 collected by the Alaska Department of Fish and 00:08:17.660 --> 00:08:21.339 Game. These animals have been shot by ADF &G, 00:08:21.360 --> 00:08:23.779 Alaska Department of Fish and Game, to minimize 00:08:23.779 --> 00:08:26.000 predation pressure on a local moose population 00:08:26.000 --> 00:08:28.540 or caribou herd. So these animals have been shot. 00:08:28.800 --> 00:08:31.459 The skulls have been cleaned up, and I looked 00:08:31.459 --> 00:08:34.120 at the skulls for evidence of blunt force trauma. 00:08:34.600 --> 00:08:38.080 How often were the animals kicked in the head 00:08:38.080 --> 00:08:41.519 fully? They had fully a quarter. The skulls I 00:08:41.519 --> 00:08:43.480 looked at showed a broken nose, a broken skull, 00:08:43.539 --> 00:08:46.379 a broken jaw. It's really hard to make a living 00:08:46.379 --> 00:08:49.919 in the woods with your teeth when you are hardwired 00:08:49.919 --> 00:08:51.940 to kill something that is much, much bigger than 00:08:51.940 --> 00:08:56.490 you. They fail. Hunting is dangerous. They're 00:08:56.490 --> 00:09:00.289 not well built for the job at hand. The reason 00:09:00.289 --> 00:09:02.950 they are so wildly successful, they have, against 00:09:02.950 --> 00:09:06.570 all of these liabilities, they have two assets 00:09:06.570 --> 00:09:11.049 that turn the tide in their favor. They're doggedly 00:09:11.049 --> 00:09:13.789 determined. And they get up about every night 00:09:13.789 --> 00:09:17.250 and they go to work. And they are supremely social. 00:09:18.090 --> 00:09:19.750 Werewolves are one of the most social large mammals 00:09:19.750 --> 00:09:21.789 in the world. They find great strength in numbers 00:09:21.789 --> 00:09:25.110 and it is their determination the sociality that 00:09:25.110 --> 00:09:28.470 allow them to thrive but otherwise There there's 00:09:28.470 --> 00:09:32.049 is a tough road a hoe if you believe in reincarnation. 00:09:32.049 --> 00:09:34.850 You do not want to come back as a gray wolf It's 00:09:34.850 --> 00:09:39.309 too hard to work. Yeah, maybe a river otter Well, 00:09:39.570 --> 00:09:42.970 hey before we jump into I wanted you have the 00:09:42.970 --> 00:09:45.110 great thing about having you on the show in a 00:09:45.110 --> 00:09:47.470 season about wolves is you have experience with 00:09:47.470 --> 00:09:49.110 all the wolves that live in the United States 00:09:49.110 --> 00:09:51.029 which is really cool the red wolf the Mexican 00:09:51.029 --> 00:09:54.220 gray wolf the the gray wolves down Colorado and, 00:09:54.320 --> 00:09:58.860 of course, the North American. I pride myself 00:09:58.860 --> 00:10:00.600 on objectivity. There's nobody else in the country 00:10:00.600 --> 00:10:02.759 that can make that claim. And there's no one 00:10:02.759 --> 00:10:04.600 else in the country that can make that claim 00:10:04.600 --> 00:10:07.379 and then also say, I've seen the issue of wolf 00:10:07.379 --> 00:10:09.779 conservation, both gray and red wolf conservation, 00:10:10.460 --> 00:10:12.919 from a decidedly policy and legal perspective 00:10:12.919 --> 00:10:16.639 as a state legislative for 14 years. So I do 00:10:16.639 --> 00:10:20.460 have a well -rounded opinion of all of this. 00:10:20.620 --> 00:10:23.559 Right. Right. Which is exactly why I was so happy 00:10:23.559 --> 00:10:25.940 when you agreed to be on the program. I do want 00:10:25.940 --> 00:10:27.639 to quickly, I'm going to give a quick shout out 00:10:27.639 --> 00:10:29.460 to my niece because you're going to like this, 00:10:29.600 --> 00:10:32.740 Mike. My niece is studying wildlife biology at 00:10:32.740 --> 00:10:35.179 Colorado State and she volunteers with the Black 00:10:35.179 --> 00:10:38.240 Footed Ferret Recovery Program. And yeah, she's 00:10:38.240 --> 00:10:40.139 been down many times. I've been with her a few 00:10:40.139 --> 00:10:43.679 times to Arizona. We've helped with captures 00:10:43.679 --> 00:10:46.000 and monitoring of Black -footed ferrets down 00:10:46.000 --> 00:10:48.940 in Arizona. That's great. Oh, yeah. Yeah, West 00:10:48.940 --> 00:10:51.340 of Flagstaff, which is a pretty cool program. 00:10:51.460 --> 00:10:54.960 We have a rich effort with the Turner Endangered 00:10:54.960 --> 00:10:57.779 Species Fund. Yeah. That's a mouthful, so I'm 00:10:57.779 --> 00:10:59.700 largely going to refer to us as Team Turner. 00:11:00.240 --> 00:11:02.500 Got it. Because there are members of the Turner 00:11:02.500 --> 00:11:04.399 organization that don't work. This is my hat, 00:11:04.480 --> 00:11:06.669 Ed. You can see my hat. I do, I noticed, yes. 00:11:08.129 --> 00:11:11.250 But I refer to us as Team Turner. Team Turner's 00:11:11.250 --> 00:11:13.330 got a rich program on behalf of Black Footed 00:11:13.330 --> 00:11:16.330 Ferrets in South Dakota with Black Tailed Prairie 00:11:16.330 --> 00:11:18.990 Dogs, and Kansas with Black Tailed Prairie Dogs, 00:11:19.110 --> 00:11:22.470 and also in New Mexico with Gunnison's Prairie 00:11:22.470 --> 00:11:24.970 Dogs. So thank your niece, she's doing God's 00:11:24.970 --> 00:11:28.330 work. I'll tell you, she's loving it and she 00:11:28.330 --> 00:11:31.330 knows, she can tell stories about Black Footed 00:11:31.330 --> 00:11:33.269 Ferrets like nobody's business. She's into it, 00:11:33.769 --> 00:11:41.299 big time. So, my listeners have a very solid 00:11:41.299 --> 00:11:45.340 base. 1995, I know the effort started before 00:11:45.340 --> 00:11:48.019 that, but the first reintroduction of wild wolves 00:11:48.019 --> 00:11:50.480 into the Yellowstone Park area with the idea 00:11:50.480 --> 00:11:52.960 that they would then repopulate the greater Yellowstone 00:11:52.960 --> 00:11:58.620 area. Can you describe why? Why did that effort 00:11:58.620 --> 00:12:00.899 come about? What was the purpose? What was the 00:12:00.899 --> 00:12:04.990 goal back in 95? 94, you know, 94, 95. Sure, 00:12:05.529 --> 00:12:07.230 it's a great question. Thank you. The recovery 00:12:07.230 --> 00:12:11.250 plan, and you know this from your work as a special 00:12:11.250 --> 00:12:15.669 agent, the Endangered Species Act calls for recovery 00:12:15.669 --> 00:12:18.830 plans to be assembled that guide activities that 00:12:18.830 --> 00:12:20.649 would allow the U .S. Fish and Wildlife Service 00:12:20.649 --> 00:12:24.269 to say, we have created enough security for the 00:12:24.269 --> 00:12:26.960 species in question that federal protections 00:12:26.960 --> 00:12:29.899 can be lifted and the species in question can 00:12:29.899 --> 00:12:32.919 be managed by a state agency. It is a fact in 00:12:32.919 --> 00:12:36.159 this country that most wildlife are managed by 00:12:36.159 --> 00:12:39.240 state agencies, not the United States Fish and 00:12:39.240 --> 00:12:41.220 Wildlife Service. The U .S. Fish and Wildlife 00:12:41.220 --> 00:12:44.340 Service has a differential focus on migratory 00:12:44.340 --> 00:12:49.759 birds and imperiled species that are considered 00:12:49.759 --> 00:12:52.970 by the Endangered Species Act. The recovery plan 00:12:52.970 --> 00:12:54.610 for the gray wolf in the Northern Rocky Mountain 00:12:54.610 --> 00:12:57.049 said, okay, you got to have three populations, 00:12:57.889 --> 00:13:00.230 three populations that eventually will interact. 00:13:00.889 --> 00:13:03.450 Animals will go from population A to B, B to 00:13:03.450 --> 00:13:06.330 C, C to A, they'll be interacting. One big population, 00:13:06.470 --> 00:13:09.929 call it a meta population, a population of populations. 00:13:10.370 --> 00:13:12.269 There need to be three strong. There was one 00:13:12.269 --> 00:13:14.929 that occurred naturally, gray wolves wandering 00:13:14.929 --> 00:13:17.289 in from Canada in Northwestern Montana. Call 00:13:17.289 --> 00:13:21.870 that population one. It was... conventional wisdom 00:13:21.870 --> 00:13:24.169 that the second and third populations would have 00:13:24.169 --> 00:13:26.789 to be brought about through reintroductions. 00:13:27.269 --> 00:13:31.009 That's what was the underlying rationale for 00:13:31.009 --> 00:13:33.129 reintroducing gray wolves to Yellowstone. It 00:13:33.129 --> 00:13:35.809 could become population two. And then at the 00:13:35.809 --> 00:13:37.730 same time we did the Yellowstone work there was 00:13:37.730 --> 00:13:40.970 a companion project in central Idaho to reintroduce 00:13:40.970 --> 00:13:43.129 wolves there and it became population number 00:13:43.129 --> 00:13:45.730 three. So ultimately the reintroductions that 00:13:45.730 --> 00:13:47.830 were done in Yellowstone and central Idaho were 00:13:47.830 --> 00:13:51.340 all about satisfying. the requirements of the 00:13:51.340 --> 00:13:54.220 recovery plan. That said, if the federal government, 00:13:54.360 --> 00:13:56.120 the Fish and Wildlife Service, can establish 00:13:56.120 --> 00:13:58.779 three populations of a certain size and they 00:13:58.779 --> 00:14:01.320 are able to communicate genetically with one 00:14:01.320 --> 00:14:04.279 another, the federal government can say, we've 00:14:04.279 --> 00:14:06.419 satisfied our obligations under the Endangered 00:14:06.419 --> 00:14:09.879 Species Act. We're done. We're going home. Gray 00:14:09.879 --> 00:14:12.000 wolves will now be managed by Wyoming Game and 00:14:12.000 --> 00:14:14.240 Fish, Montana Fish, Wildlife and Parks, and Idaho 00:14:14.240 --> 00:14:16.629 Department of Fish and Game. And so that was 00:14:16.629 --> 00:14:19.830 the underlying rationale. It was widely believed 00:14:19.830 --> 00:14:22.929 that gray wolves would probably not move into 00:14:22.929 --> 00:14:25.250 the Yellowstone ecosystem on their own, that 00:14:25.250 --> 00:14:27.830 they would not move into central Idaho with sufficient 00:14:27.830 --> 00:14:30.610 certainty on their own for the Fish and Wildlife 00:14:30.610 --> 00:14:32.850 Service to step back and let gray wolves do it 00:14:32.850 --> 00:14:35.370 by their own wanderings. But beyond that, and 00:14:35.370 --> 00:14:37.429 you'll appreciate this, Ed, as a special agent, 00:14:38.409 --> 00:14:40.669 if you had stood back, if the Fish and Wildlife 00:14:40.669 --> 00:14:44.970 Service back in the day, 1991, 92, 93, 94, They 00:14:44.970 --> 00:14:46.370 stood back and said, we're going to let wolves 00:14:46.370 --> 00:14:50.409 do it on their own. They would have done so over 00:14:50.409 --> 00:14:53.450 a long period of time as fully endangered animals. 00:14:54.509 --> 00:14:56.889 When you look at the law, folks, the Endangered 00:14:56.889 --> 00:15:00.929 Species Act says you can't do much to manage 00:15:00.929 --> 00:15:03.610 an endangered animal that doesn't violate the 00:15:03.610 --> 00:15:06.789 law. And so, you know, with these endangered 00:15:06.789 --> 00:15:09.649 wolves are walking around, they kill your cows, 00:15:09.750 --> 00:15:12.970 they kill your dog, you can't do anything because 00:15:12.970 --> 00:15:16.610 they're endangered. In contrast, Ed, if the Fish 00:15:16.610 --> 00:15:19.870 and Wildlife Service chooses to reintroduce under 00:15:19.870 --> 00:15:22.529 a particular provision of the Endangered Species 00:15:22.529 --> 00:15:26.570 Act, it opens up a tremendous opportunity to 00:15:26.570 --> 00:15:30.179 create management latitude. So folks can. get 00:15:30.179 --> 00:15:32.879 involved with hazing wolves that are harassing 00:15:32.879 --> 00:15:35.620 livestock. The folks can expect the Fish and 00:15:35.620 --> 00:15:38.879 Wildlife Service to exercise lethal removal if 00:15:38.879 --> 00:15:41.779 necessary to resolve a conflict with livestock. 00:15:42.299 --> 00:15:45.179 The advantage of reintroductions that was almost 00:15:45.179 --> 00:15:48.039 certainly going to succeed, it would be relatively 00:15:48.039 --> 00:15:50.580 cost effective and it would create great management 00:15:50.580 --> 00:15:53.539 latitude. It's a great deal easier to live with 00:15:53.539 --> 00:15:56.220 a wolf that can be managed than one that can't. 00:15:56.559 --> 00:15:59.919 Boy, that is a hugely important point that I 00:15:59.919 --> 00:16:02.480 think is missed it is missed because you're you're 00:16:02.480 --> 00:16:04.980 absolutely right if I could just Say it in another 00:16:04.980 --> 00:16:09.860 way Maybe so other listeners get it Is that yeah 00:16:09.860 --> 00:16:12.220 if wolves had crossed the border they would be 00:16:12.220 --> 00:16:14.340 fully protected under the Endangered Species 00:16:14.340 --> 00:16:17.179 Act ESA and when an endangered species cannot 00:16:17.179 --> 00:16:20.100 be messed with can't even be like harassed, right? 00:16:20.120 --> 00:16:21.980 That's a violence. That's the only thing you 00:16:21.980 --> 00:16:23.879 could do that would pass the smell test with 00:16:23.879 --> 00:16:26.820 the judge is Killing a dangerous species that 00:16:26.820 --> 00:16:28.799 was threatening your life? Self -defense, yeah, 00:16:28.919 --> 00:16:32.500 that's the only thing. 100%, yeah, self -defense. 00:16:32.600 --> 00:16:34.580 And that's the only thing that excuses people 00:16:34.580 --> 00:16:38.179 when they kill grizzlies. And you know, for the 00:16:38.179 --> 00:16:40.799 vast majority of species that are listed as endangered, 00:16:40.899 --> 00:16:43.240 that's a fine provision because they don't represent 00:16:43.240 --> 00:16:45.779 any threat to human safety. Grey wolves don't 00:16:45.779 --> 00:16:47.679 either. Grey wolves do not represent a threat 00:16:47.679 --> 00:16:50.500 to human safety, at least not a threat that's 00:16:50.500 --> 00:16:54.370 worth worrying about. Beyond that, gray wolves, 00:16:55.070 --> 00:16:59.809 on rare occasion, can create problems. It is 00:16:59.809 --> 00:17:02.309 true that it's the atypical wolf that depredates 00:17:02.309 --> 00:17:04.829 on livestock. But if that statement is true, 00:17:05.690 --> 00:17:07.289 then if you believe in the bell -shaped curve, 00:17:07.349 --> 00:17:11.809 which I do, there are some atypical wolves. On 00:17:11.809 --> 00:17:13.630 occasion, gray wolves are going to get stuck 00:17:13.630 --> 00:17:16.829 in the livestock. If they were not reintroduced... 00:17:16.880 --> 00:17:19.900 and managed against the special provisions of 00:17:19.900 --> 00:17:23.039 the Endangered Species Act that allow for latitude 00:17:23.039 --> 00:17:26.579 in the field. Your hands are tied. As a special 00:17:26.579 --> 00:17:29.160 agent, your hands would have been tied. That's 00:17:29.160 --> 00:17:34.000 absolutely correct. One way to look at it is 00:17:34.000 --> 00:17:37.119 it's almost as if, in a way, the Fish and Wildlife 00:17:37.119 --> 00:17:39.859 Service was looking ahead and kind of did people 00:17:39.859 --> 00:17:41.839 a favor by doing this. Of course they were. As 00:17:41.839 --> 00:17:43.380 a matter of fact, if you go back and you look 00:17:43.380 --> 00:17:45.940 at the history of the law, It's it's set you 00:17:45.940 --> 00:17:47.940 know this every your listeners may not know yes 00:17:47.940 --> 00:17:50.980 section 10j of the Endangered Species Act that 00:17:50.980 --> 00:17:53.500 allows for animals to be reintroduced under what's 00:17:53.500 --> 00:17:56.400 called an experimental non -essential framework 00:17:56.400 --> 00:18:01.160 and and it allows for this relaxing of Restrictions 00:18:01.160 --> 00:18:03.779 so you can exercise management latitude fine 00:18:03.779 --> 00:18:07.759 when that all came about It was advocated by 00:18:07.759 --> 00:18:09.880 friends of mine and supported by legislators 00:18:09.880 --> 00:18:13.099 as a way to make the Endangered Species Act more 00:18:13.099 --> 00:18:16.329 effective by making it more user friendly by 00:18:16.329 --> 00:18:19.789 recognizing that sometimes the animals that need 00:18:19.789 --> 00:18:24.490 help can cause problems and they need to be managed. 00:18:25.109 --> 00:18:27.369 It was a beautiful stroke. Anybody that says 00:18:27.369 --> 00:18:30.549 the Endangered Species Act is not a common sense 00:18:30.549 --> 00:18:35.589 law that includes provisions to curry support 00:18:35.589 --> 00:18:38.630 from local folks simply doesn't understand the 00:18:38.630 --> 00:18:41.829 law. It is common sense and it does have provisions. 00:18:42.079 --> 00:18:45.299 that make it practical to implement in the field? 00:18:45.759 --> 00:18:47.720 A hundred percent. It was my experience, too, 00:18:47.759 --> 00:18:50.400 working with the ESA in a pretty intimate way. 00:18:50.579 --> 00:18:52.900 Yeah, sure, of course. Yeah. And you know, I 00:18:52.900 --> 00:18:56.000 think that dovetails into my next question for 00:18:56.000 --> 00:18:59.299 you in our area of discussion is that, so, okay, 00:18:59.359 --> 00:19:03.660 when this reintroduction effort was committed, 00:19:03.920 --> 00:19:05.960 there was a commitment to do it. And the first 00:19:05.960 --> 00:19:07.519 wolves were brought into Yellowstone and put 00:19:07.519 --> 00:19:11.990 in those orientation pens. Todd, talk a little 00:19:11.990 --> 00:19:14.910 bit about what kind of response did you get from 00:19:14.910 --> 00:19:17.049 the local community and what was the politics 00:19:17.049 --> 00:19:21.470 of it? Can you talk a little bit about the dynamics, 00:19:21.710 --> 00:19:23.049 like what kind of support were you getting from 00:19:23.049 --> 00:19:25.730 the agencies, the states, or not support, and 00:19:25.730 --> 00:19:29.990 the local people? What was it like? Well, of 00:19:29.990 --> 00:19:31.589 course, there was local support and there was 00:19:31.589 --> 00:19:35.369 local opposition. Sure. Of course. Yeah. And 00:19:35.369 --> 00:19:39.960 let's say it was 50 -50. Okay, okay fine. Here's 00:19:39.960 --> 00:19:42.000 the interesting thing about the United States 00:19:42.000 --> 00:19:43.900 Fish and Wildlife Service in the Endangered Species 00:19:43.900 --> 00:19:47.720 Act. That agency is properly named the United 00:19:47.720 --> 00:19:50.500 States Fish and Wildlife Service. The U .S. Fish 00:19:50.500 --> 00:19:52.420 and Wildlife Service has the responsibility of 00:19:52.420 --> 00:19:55.440 listening to local voices, that's true, but also 00:19:55.440 --> 00:19:58.980 a national voice. It's the federal agency and 00:19:58.980 --> 00:20:01.420 the U .S. Fish and Wildlife Service doesn't just 00:20:01.420 --> 00:20:04.079 serve Montanans. The U .S. Fish and Wildlife 00:20:04.079 --> 00:20:08.059 Service serves all U .S. citizens. And from a 00:20:08.059 --> 00:20:10.859 nationwide perspective, there was overwhelming 00:20:10.859 --> 00:20:14.339 support for gray wolves to be reintroduced into 00:20:14.339 --> 00:20:16.420 Yellowstone to restore a population of the Greater 00:20:16.420 --> 00:20:19.460 Yellowstone ecosystem that counted for recovery 00:20:19.460 --> 00:20:23.779 of the species. Overwhelming support. The local 00:20:23.779 --> 00:20:26.740 agencies were not interested in engaging. Montana 00:20:26.740 --> 00:20:30.460 Fish, Wife and Parks, Idaho Fish and Game, Wyoming 00:20:30.460 --> 00:20:32.519 Game and Fish Department, they didn't want to 00:20:32.519 --> 00:20:35.000 touch this thing with a 10 -foot pole. because 00:20:35.000 --> 00:20:38.720 it is controversial. Grey Wolf recovery, Grey 00:20:38.720 --> 00:20:42.019 Wolf work is controversial. There is a provision 00:20:42.019 --> 00:20:44.319 of the law that says the Fish and Wildlife Service 00:20:44.319 --> 00:20:47.220 should go to great lengths to try to recruit 00:20:47.220 --> 00:20:50.319 the state game agencies to do the work called 00:20:50.319 --> 00:20:53.180 for by the law. And the Fish and Wildlife Service 00:20:53.180 --> 00:20:57.359 did that and the state said no thanks. So the 00:20:57.359 --> 00:21:00.650 states were no help. at all at the beginning, 00:21:00.930 --> 00:21:03.210 and for good reason. Why in the world would they 00:21:03.210 --> 00:21:05.789 want to take on this bigger project when they 00:21:05.789 --> 00:21:09.430 don't have to? So there was a local voice that 00:21:09.430 --> 00:21:12.930 was split 50 -50, let's say, a strong nationwide 00:21:12.930 --> 00:21:15.849 voice saying, go forward. They say the game agencies 00:21:15.849 --> 00:21:17.410 weren't the least bit interested. They were going 00:21:17.410 --> 00:21:18.750 to let the Fish and Wildlife Service and the 00:21:18.750 --> 00:21:21.410 National Park Service take all the shots. But 00:21:21.410 --> 00:21:24.569 please know, Ed, this work was being done in 00:21:24.569 --> 00:21:27.450 Yellowstone National Park and surrounding national 00:21:27.450 --> 00:21:29.890 forests. It was being done in national forests 00:21:29.890 --> 00:21:35.509 in Idaho, and the national forests are of concern 00:21:35.509 --> 00:21:39.549 to citizens nationwide, not just folks in Idaho. 00:21:40.109 --> 00:21:43.150 There was tremendous support for this program 00:21:43.150 --> 00:21:46.630 when you consider the context in which it was 00:21:46.630 --> 00:21:50.539 crafted. And that is a nationwide context, not 00:21:50.539 --> 00:21:53.599 just a Wyoming perspective. And then you say, 00:21:53.720 --> 00:21:55.339 well, gee whiz, then the nation was putting on 00:21:55.339 --> 00:21:57.700 Wyoming. And I would say, no, no, it's not. But 00:21:57.700 --> 00:22:01.660 quite often we as a country will move forward 00:22:01.660 --> 00:22:04.279 with a big voice, even though there's a smaller 00:22:04.279 --> 00:22:08.339 voice expressing opposition. And my 14 years 00:22:08.339 --> 00:22:10.019 in the state legislature, I thought long and 00:22:10.019 --> 00:22:12.960 hard about what constitutes good governance. 00:22:13.839 --> 00:22:17.250 And here's what I concluded. It's rising to the 00:22:17.250 --> 00:22:20.250 challenge each and every day of balancing the 00:22:20.250 --> 00:22:24.309 tension between private needs and public needs. 00:22:25.049 --> 00:22:28.049 And sometimes we err on behalf of private needs. 00:22:28.430 --> 00:22:30.750 And sometimes we err on behalf of public needs. 00:22:30.829 --> 00:22:33.269 And it's a balancing act. It's a zigzag. You're 00:22:33.269 --> 00:22:35.029 tacking left and you're tacking right. But if 00:22:35.029 --> 00:22:38.509 you're making progress forward, that's what you 00:22:38.509 --> 00:22:40.470 should hope for with your governor, balancing 00:22:40.470 --> 00:22:44.029 the tension between private public balancing 00:22:44.029 --> 00:22:47.369 the tension between states and the nation balancing 00:22:47.369 --> 00:22:49.890 the tension between a local voice and a national 00:22:49.890 --> 00:22:53.130 voice and with wolf recovery I will go to my 00:22:53.130 --> 00:22:56.750 grave believing this with wolf recovery when 00:22:56.750 --> 00:22:58.950 the United States Fish and Wildlife Service chooses 00:22:58.950 --> 00:23:03.069 to engage based on the best science they do a 00:23:03.069 --> 00:23:07.140 hell of a good job yeah You know I view the whole 00:23:07.140 --> 00:23:08.980 thing of that whole interesting because you hear 00:23:08.980 --> 00:23:12.099 that that cliche argument a lot of you know Why 00:23:12.099 --> 00:23:14.240 are New Yorkers telling Wyomingites what they 00:23:14.240 --> 00:23:16.680 ought to do and you're you you hit the nail on 00:23:16.680 --> 00:23:21.079 the head man I you know We you and I living in 00:23:21.079 --> 00:23:24.480 the West we care about what happens to the Gettysburg 00:23:24.480 --> 00:23:26.519 battlefield We care about what happens to the 00:23:26.519 --> 00:23:28.759 monuments in Washington DC. We don't live there 00:23:29.119 --> 00:23:31.359 And so, yeah, people in New York and the East 00:23:31.359 --> 00:23:33.579 Coast have just as much right to care about what 00:23:33.579 --> 00:23:37.079 happens to federal land and federal species in 00:23:37.079 --> 00:23:39.740 the West as we do. I would only qualify that 00:23:39.740 --> 00:23:44.319 slightly. OK, I can choose to care about Gettysburg. 00:23:44.799 --> 00:23:47.920 Yes, if I do choose to act on that concern, my 00:23:47.920 --> 00:23:51.140 voice should count just as much as someone who 00:23:51.140 --> 00:23:54.299 lives right outside the setting. I don't I don't 00:23:54.299 --> 00:23:57.420 have to engage, but I can't. You can't, right? 00:23:57.579 --> 00:24:00.259 And it's that option to choose to engage that 00:24:00.259 --> 00:24:03.319 connects us as a country. We're all in this together 00:24:03.319 --> 00:24:07.079 on issues that transcend state boundaries. I 00:24:07.079 --> 00:24:10.519 do not oppose state management of wildlife for 00:24:10.519 --> 00:24:12.559 the most part. I have been blessed, Ed, to work 00:24:12.559 --> 00:24:15.200 with state fishing game agencies all over the 00:24:15.200 --> 00:24:18.660 country. They do beautiful work. Yeah, for sure. 00:24:18.660 --> 00:24:20.599 But they're not as good as the United States 00:24:20.599 --> 00:24:23.200 Fish and Wildlife Service at dealing with imperiled 00:24:23.200 --> 00:24:27.539 species. and species that have ranges that transcend 00:24:27.539 --> 00:24:31.279 state boundaries. Yep. Okay, yeah. That's why 00:24:31.279 --> 00:24:33.059 migratory birds went under the U .S. Fish and 00:24:33.059 --> 00:24:35.299 Wildlife Service. Exactly right. Exactly, because 00:24:35.299 --> 00:24:37.920 the states couldn't deal with it. It's a nationwide 00:24:37.920 --> 00:24:43.079 issue. Yeah, exactly, yeah. Want to touch stay 00:24:43.079 --> 00:24:45.299 on this topic just a little bit longer because 00:24:45.299 --> 00:24:47.619 some of the special agents that I know that I 00:24:47.619 --> 00:24:49.700 worked with You know, we're actually assigned 00:24:49.700 --> 00:24:53.119 to go up there and provide like security and 00:24:53.119 --> 00:24:56.039 protection to the wolves that were in those you 00:24:56.039 --> 00:24:58.660 know orientation or habituation pens or whatever 00:24:58.660 --> 00:25:02.059 they were called I can't remember but So that 00:25:02.059 --> 00:25:04.200 50 % that was opposed there were there was a 00:25:04.200 --> 00:25:05.819 group of people in there that there was some 00:25:05.819 --> 00:25:08.799 concern that there could be violence against 00:25:09.119 --> 00:25:11.880 Park Service or Fish and Wildlife Service employees 00:25:11.880 --> 00:25:15.160 and or the animals is that key? Is that overblown 00:25:15.160 --> 00:25:17.119 or can you describe kind of what that was like? 00:25:17.339 --> 00:25:21.200 Was that a real fear of yours or? Yeah, the the 00:25:21.200 --> 00:25:23.519 the pins were called acclimation pin acclimation. 00:25:23.619 --> 00:25:25.839 Yeah in Yellowstone. We did maintain the animals 00:25:25.839 --> 00:25:32.140 in captivity for about 80 days to attenuate to 00:25:32.140 --> 00:25:34.740 dim their memory of home so that upon release 00:25:34.740 --> 00:25:37.000 they would be more likely to exhibit restrictive 00:25:37.000 --> 00:25:39.619 movements. Okay, anyway, of course, of course, 00:25:39.720 --> 00:25:43.900 and from the National Park Service's perspective, 00:25:44.759 --> 00:25:46.779 Yellowstone National Park can do amazing things. 00:25:47.380 --> 00:25:49.720 When the staff at Yellowstone National Park puts 00:25:49.720 --> 00:25:53.059 its mind to a task, they get that task done ahead 00:25:53.059 --> 00:25:57.339 of schedule, under budget. And they have a strong 00:25:57.339 --> 00:26:01.980 law enforcement component. The backcountry rangers 00:26:01.980 --> 00:26:05.240 that work in Yellowstone are top shelf conservation 00:26:05.240 --> 00:26:09.660 officers. So it only made sense that you go to 00:26:09.660 --> 00:26:12.299 the nth degree to ensure the security of the 00:26:12.299 --> 00:26:15.539 animals while they were confined during acclimation. 00:26:17.319 --> 00:26:20.119 Would animals have been poached if we hadn't 00:26:20.119 --> 00:26:24.400 done that? I don't know. Have those of us who've 00:26:24.400 --> 00:26:26.299 worked with wolves long enough been threatened? 00:26:26.420 --> 00:26:29.269 You bet. But most of us have had our lives threatened. 00:26:29.529 --> 00:26:32.710 Are the threats credible? Probably not. But do 00:26:32.710 --> 00:26:35.130 we have a long history in this country of knuckleheads 00:26:35.130 --> 00:26:36.769 sometimes taking matters to their own hands? 00:26:36.890 --> 00:26:39.430 Of course we do. There's knuckleheads the world 00:26:39.430 --> 00:26:41.210 over. There have been knuckleheads since homo 00:26:41.210 --> 00:26:43.410 sapiens have wandered the planet for the last 00:26:43.410 --> 00:26:45.849 300 ,000 years. Knuckleheads are just a fact 00:26:45.849 --> 00:26:49.630 of life. And so anticipating that, you know, 00:26:49.769 --> 00:26:52.609 gee, was knuckleheads a reality. Why not? Why 00:26:52.609 --> 00:26:56.329 not make sure? Because then if something happened, 00:26:56.509 --> 00:26:59.569 You can always say, no, Ed, we had 24 -hour coverage, 00:26:59.930 --> 00:27:03.269 pal. That guy snuck in, and despite our best 00:27:03.269 --> 00:27:07.049 efforts, was able to conduct an unlawful activity. 00:27:07.190 --> 00:27:10.410 Or no, we busted his sorry ass. And because we 00:27:10.410 --> 00:27:14.049 were out, so we just, we left no stone unturned. 00:27:14.150 --> 00:27:18.490 Awesome. Okay. Cool. Talk about your first, the 00:27:18.490 --> 00:27:21.170 first efforts, like once those first wolves were 00:27:21.170 --> 00:27:24.319 released. Did it meet your expectations? Did 00:27:24.319 --> 00:27:26.819 it exceed your expectations in terms of success? 00:27:27.440 --> 00:27:29.480 And how did that go when those first wolves were 00:27:29.480 --> 00:27:33.359 let loose from the acclimation pens? Yeah, there 00:27:33.359 --> 00:27:38.099 were a couple of surprises. Overall, the restoration 00:27:38.099 --> 00:27:42.220 effort matured as I expected and was expected 00:27:42.220 --> 00:27:44.440 by many others because Yellowstone represents 00:27:44.440 --> 00:27:46.799 supremely suitable habitat that's highly secure. 00:27:47.690 --> 00:27:50.390 But before I get to the two surprises from Yellowstone, 00:27:50.410 --> 00:27:53.470 it is also important for folks to note the work 00:27:53.470 --> 00:27:56.490 in Idaho, which was going on at the same time, 00:27:56.890 --> 00:28:00.549 also was wildly successful. There were just two 00:28:00.549 --> 00:28:03.930 subtle differences between the two reintroductions. 00:28:04.829 --> 00:28:08.410 The work in Idaho entailed immediate release. 00:28:08.869 --> 00:28:11.910 Animal caught in Canada, taken to Idaho, taken 00:28:11.910 --> 00:28:14.829 to the end of a logging road, and let go. There 00:28:14.829 --> 00:28:19.829 was no acclamation. In Yellowstone, we adopted 00:28:19.829 --> 00:28:22.410 a slightly different approach. We acclimated, 00:28:22.430 --> 00:28:25.470 as I said, for about 80 to 90 days in an attempt 00:28:25.470 --> 00:28:29.869 to attenuate a wolf's tendency to home. Like 00:28:29.869 --> 00:28:32.609 most mammals, gray wolves, they tend to home, 00:28:32.910 --> 00:28:34.930 and so if you left them to their own devices, 00:28:34.930 --> 00:28:37.670 they're going to drift north. And when you look 00:28:37.670 --> 00:28:39.910 at Yellowstone, the very best habitat for gray 00:28:39.910 --> 00:28:41.890 wolves was the northern quarter of the park, 00:28:42.490 --> 00:28:46.259 which, as the crow flies, is about I'll say 50 00:28:46.259 --> 00:28:50.039 or 60 miles from Livingston, not 60, but say 00:28:50.039 --> 00:28:53.019 40, 50 miles from Livingston, Montana and beyond. 00:28:53.359 --> 00:28:54.799 And we thought, well, gee whiz, we don't want 00:28:54.799 --> 00:28:57.099 them going north of Livingston. What can we do 00:28:57.099 --> 00:28:59.859 to slow them down? What can we do to route them 00:28:59.859 --> 00:29:02.640 to the northern part of the park through restricted 00:29:02.640 --> 00:29:05.180 movements? That's why in Yellowstone, we acclimated. 00:29:05.700 --> 00:29:08.079 In Idaho, we didn't. Idaho population did really 00:29:08.079 --> 00:29:10.400 well. It jumped like a rocket ship. It actually 00:29:10.400 --> 00:29:13.400 grew more quickly than the population in Yellowstone. 00:29:14.019 --> 00:29:17.259 Both worked really well here are the two surprises 00:29:17.259 --> 00:29:21.720 from Yellowstone The first related to the release 00:29:21.720 --> 00:29:25.559 when we opened the gate The wolves didn't come 00:29:25.559 --> 00:29:30.279 out, huh? For many days they didn't come out, 00:29:30.579 --> 00:29:33.720 huh? And we thought huh This is really odd and 00:29:33.720 --> 00:29:36.319 then we started thinking about it and it was 00:29:36.319 --> 00:29:38.740 clear that they didn't come out Because they 00:29:38.740 --> 00:29:41.339 rarely went to the portion of the pin the pins 00:29:41.339 --> 00:29:42.980 covered about an acre. They weren't that big 00:29:42.980 --> 00:29:46.759 but The wolves rarely went to the area near the 00:29:46.759 --> 00:29:51.099 pen During the entire time they were in captivity 00:29:51.099 --> 00:29:53.799 and and and it was clear ed They were avoiding 00:29:53.799 --> 00:29:56.839 that because that's where we came from. Oh the 00:29:56.839 --> 00:29:59.059 gate into the pen Yeah, okay, I'd meet in and 00:29:59.059 --> 00:30:00.460 then we'd leave but we kept coming and going 00:30:00.460 --> 00:30:03.380 from that door Right, and they don't like that. 00:30:03.759 --> 00:30:06.039 They don't like being around us. We make them 00:30:06.039 --> 00:30:08.160 nervous I don't maybe we smell bad, but where 00:30:08.160 --> 00:30:10.579 we're shifty It can't be counted. Oh, that's 00:30:10.579 --> 00:30:12.259 true. Can't be trusted. Can't be trusted. Okay, 00:30:12.259 --> 00:30:14.579 so imagine you and I go to the pin. We open the 00:30:14.579 --> 00:30:16.700 gate and we leave. And if the wolves never get 00:30:16.700 --> 00:30:18.519 near the gate, they might not think anything, 00:30:18.819 --> 00:30:23.720 right? I was of the mind that they really didn't 00:30:23.720 --> 00:30:27.579 know what going out meant. So here's one thing 00:30:27.579 --> 00:30:29.559 that happened in captivity. They would bite at 00:30:29.559 --> 00:30:32.180 the chain link, not near the door, but they'd 00:30:32.180 --> 00:30:35.359 bite on the chain link as far from the doors 00:30:35.359 --> 00:30:37.630 they could so that they got this notion in their 00:30:37.630 --> 00:30:40.410 mind that, oh my gosh, even in the presence of 00:30:40.410 --> 00:30:43.589 my determined biting, I can't get out. Right. 00:30:43.910 --> 00:30:46.529 So they're stuck, right? So it's on their mind 00:30:46.529 --> 00:30:49.210 that they're stuck. They don't want to go near 00:30:49.210 --> 00:30:51.849 the door. And I don't think they understood. 00:30:52.130 --> 00:30:55.250 I see chain link. I see an open door. I seen 00:30:55.250 --> 00:30:57.190 chain link. Oh, I could go out that they didn't 00:30:57.190 --> 00:31:00.990 know what we did. So shit, this isn't working. 00:31:01.490 --> 00:31:06.069 Five, six, seven days passed. We went. Back to 00:31:06.069 --> 00:31:11.029 the pins and we cut a hole in the fence in the 00:31:11.029 --> 00:31:13.849 portion of the pin Where they spent most of the 00:31:13.849 --> 00:31:16.789 time we called it the comfort zone. Yeah shit, 00:31:16.869 --> 00:31:19.569 man. They still didn't come out They're running 00:31:19.569 --> 00:31:23.369 right by this hole Right in the comfort zone. 00:31:23.450 --> 00:31:25.430 I thought well shit. Oh dear man. We didn't make 00:31:25.430 --> 00:31:28.630 the hole big enough So after a couple days of 00:31:28.630 --> 00:31:31.269 this we went back to the place and we took out 00:31:31.269 --> 00:31:34.579 the whole frickin panel And it was then that 00:31:34.579 --> 00:31:36.599 they came out and boom they were gone. It was 00:31:36.599 --> 00:31:39.839 I was surprised that it took them Many days to 00:31:39.839 --> 00:31:44.019 get out that was your surprise. Okay second surprise 00:31:44.019 --> 00:31:48.880 Nearly upon release And I think it's because 00:31:48.880 --> 00:31:52.279 gray wolves are pretty smart nearly upon release 00:31:52.279 --> 00:31:58.240 They were very observable Hmm There are parts 00:31:58.240 --> 00:32:00.859 of Yellowstone that offer great big view sheds. 00:32:00.980 --> 00:32:03.779 Yeah, and you could sit and watch gray wolves 00:32:03.779 --> 00:32:06.960 live out their lives in places like Lamar Valley. 00:32:07.160 --> 00:32:10.819 To this day, gray wolves are highly sought after 00:32:10.819 --> 00:32:15.359 as a large mammal in the park to observe. They 00:32:15.359 --> 00:32:17.660 and gray wolves and grizzly bears are probably 00:32:17.660 --> 00:32:21.500 the two top species to see in the wild in Yellowstone. 00:32:21.880 --> 00:32:24.059 We had not expected no one, I don't remember 00:32:24.059 --> 00:32:28.039 any conversation about the observability of gray 00:32:28.039 --> 00:32:31.700 wolves being keen. Upon release and and the reason 00:32:31.700 --> 00:32:34.799 I think they're so observable They rather quickly 00:32:34.799 --> 00:32:37.339 come to conclude. It doesn't matter if I hear 00:32:37.339 --> 00:32:40.299 that car door slam It doesn't matter if I hear 00:32:40.299 --> 00:32:43.799 those voices a quarter mile away They have never 00:32:43.799 --> 00:32:46.339 represented any kind of threat to me. So I'm 00:32:46.339 --> 00:32:49.539 gonna ignore Yeah, and it's a consequence of 00:32:49.539 --> 00:32:52.740 Yellowstone being highly secure Yellowstone offering 00:32:52.740 --> 00:32:55.339 a prey population that allows gray wolves to 00:32:55.339 --> 00:32:58.589 occur at a reasonable density And Yellowstone 00:32:58.589 --> 00:33:01.150 offers these great big view sheds where you can 00:33:01.150 --> 00:33:04.650 see across a big landscape and you can watch 00:33:04.650 --> 00:33:07.230 gray wolves chasing algae. We didn't expect they'd 00:33:07.230 --> 00:33:09.509 be slow to come out. We didn't expect they'd 00:33:09.509 --> 00:33:12.410 be so observable. Everything else went as planned 00:33:12.410 --> 00:33:15.410 ahead of schedule under budget. Nice. And did 00:33:15.410 --> 00:33:19.569 they stay true to the area? Or did they stray 00:33:19.569 --> 00:33:24.470 from the park? One of the groups stuck around 00:33:24.470 --> 00:33:26.910 and really seemed to be impressed by acclimation. 00:33:27.210 --> 00:33:31.589 Two other groups wandered more widely. Management 00:33:31.589 --> 00:33:33.730 actions got involved, so it's hard to know where 00:33:33.730 --> 00:33:35.369 they would have ended up if we had left them 00:33:35.369 --> 00:33:39.049 alone. But we know for sure when you look at 00:33:39.049 --> 00:33:42.250 post -release movements, on average, the wolves 00:33:42.250 --> 00:33:44.710 released in Idaho went a great deal further and 00:33:44.710 --> 00:33:48.329 mostly north compared to wolves in Yellowstone 00:33:48.329 --> 00:33:53.470 who traveled much, much shorter distances. The 00:33:53.470 --> 00:33:56.630 best measure I can give you about the success 00:33:56.630 --> 00:34:00.329 of the approach in Idaho and Yellowstone It's 00:34:00.329 --> 00:34:03.569 simple within about eight years or thereabouts 00:34:03.569 --> 00:34:05.910 the Idaho population was a hundred and growing 00:34:05.910 --> 00:34:10.030 Okay, that's great 37 wolves released in Idaho 00:34:10.030 --> 00:34:13.070 and within just a few short years five to ten 00:34:13.070 --> 00:34:16.030 years They had given rise to a population that 00:34:16.030 --> 00:34:17.550 was growing that was stronger than a hundred 00:34:17.550 --> 00:34:20.769 animals. Okay. Yeah, similarly in in Yellowstone 00:34:21.099 --> 00:34:23.900 Within about ten years we were pushing at that 00:34:23.900 --> 00:34:28.559 hundred animal mark And I had said to Doug Smith 00:34:28.559 --> 00:34:31.820 and I still believe this to the to this day in 00:34:31.820 --> 00:34:34.900 Yellowstone we let 31 animals go from Canada 00:34:34.900 --> 00:34:40.199 and Idaho let 37 go I don't think Ed The first 00:34:40.199 --> 00:34:42.679 batch was 14 strong that we let go in Yellowstone. 00:34:42.679 --> 00:34:46.179 The second batch was 17 strong. I Don't think 00:34:46.179 --> 00:34:49.579 we needed the second second batch of 17. Okay, 00:34:49.639 --> 00:34:52.610 the first batch A 14 probably would have been 00:34:52.610 --> 00:34:56.570 sufficient. We certainly, there was no disagreement 00:34:56.570 --> 00:34:59.690 after the second round of rain reductions involving 00:34:59.690 --> 00:35:02.670 those 17 additional wolves from Canada. No one 00:35:02.670 --> 00:35:05.369 was arguing for a third round. Really? Okay. 00:35:05.650 --> 00:35:08.010 It worked really, really well. The Fish and Wildlife 00:35:08.010 --> 00:35:09.949 Service did a heck of a job. The National Park 00:35:09.949 --> 00:35:12.650 Service did a heck of a job. And the landscapes, 00:35:13.349 --> 00:35:16.969 the wild landscapes of central Idaho and Yellowstone 00:35:16.969 --> 00:35:20.619 did great jobs too. Well, part of that was there 00:35:20.619 --> 00:35:24.820 was plenty of elk, right? Lots of elk. Prey biomass 00:35:24.820 --> 00:35:27.219 is critical. You know, gray wolves aren't complicated. 00:35:27.860 --> 00:35:31.159 In areas where human cause mortality is low, 00:35:31.880 --> 00:35:34.559 wolf population dynamics are largely decided 00:35:34.559 --> 00:35:37.920 by prey biomass. In other words, if they're not 00:35:37.920 --> 00:35:40.840 getting shot and poisoned by us, if they've got 00:35:40.840 --> 00:35:42.980 enough food to eat, they're going to do quite 00:35:42.980 --> 00:35:47.800 well. How did the you know, the the killing of 00:35:47.800 --> 00:35:50.019 wolf 10 was kind of a famous moment I think is 00:35:50.019 --> 00:35:52.699 the first poaching incident of one of the released 00:35:52.699 --> 00:35:56.519 wolves in Yellowstone How did that impact the 00:35:56.519 --> 00:35:58.940 kind of the outlook of the program at the time? 00:35:58.960 --> 00:36:01.420 Do you recall and how did because I believe wolf 00:36:01.420 --> 00:36:06.400 10 was one of the breeding pair of an important 00:36:06.400 --> 00:36:10.360 release group of wolves, right? You know was 00:36:10.360 --> 00:36:15.050 a flashpoint of concern and I got a Shout out 00:36:15.050 --> 00:36:17.230 to one of your colleagues from the ranks of special 00:36:17.230 --> 00:36:20.849 agents a guy named Tim Iker Tim Iker was he's 00:36:20.849 --> 00:36:23.269 been on the show Yeah, Tim did a hell of a job. 00:36:23.510 --> 00:36:27.670 Yeah, making sure that Chad McKittrick I Paid 00:36:27.670 --> 00:36:33.030 the price. Yeah McKittrick Shot skinned and beheaded 00:36:33.030 --> 00:36:36.809 number 10 for no good reason His his buddy who 00:36:36.809 --> 00:36:38.929 was with him at the time a guy named dusty Steinmeisel 00:36:38.929 --> 00:36:45.269 was reported to have said that Chad said, that's 00:36:45.269 --> 00:36:48.150 a fucking wolf, I'm gonna kill it. And he did, 00:36:48.369 --> 00:36:50.349 shot it, skinned it, beheaded it, for no good 00:36:50.349 --> 00:36:52.510 reason, and Eicher busted him. Beautiful work 00:36:52.510 --> 00:36:57.389 by Tim. From my perspective as the senior field 00:36:57.389 --> 00:37:00.710 biologist, it drew attention to the need to continue 00:37:00.710 --> 00:37:03.969 to press forward with good field work, because 00:37:03.969 --> 00:37:06.250 we had so few animals involved in the program 00:37:06.250 --> 00:37:08.789 at that time, there was no guarantee of success. 00:37:09.289 --> 00:37:11.789 There were so few wolves involved at the time 00:37:11.789 --> 00:37:14.010 that number ten was killed. Let's say there might 00:37:14.010 --> 00:37:17.070 have been Ten ten wolves involved at the program 00:37:17.070 --> 00:37:18.869 ten ten was killed right at the beginning of 00:37:18.869 --> 00:37:24.110 the work, right? That that I was certain That 00:37:24.110 --> 00:37:26.630 we needed to go to great lengths to ensure the 00:37:26.630 --> 00:37:30.269 survival of every wolf We knew about right and 00:37:30.269 --> 00:37:33.510 and so the response to the poaching of ten was 00:37:33.510 --> 00:37:38.329 to redouble efforts in the field To promote survival 00:37:39.039 --> 00:37:41.619 This created some problem with the United States 00:37:41.619 --> 00:37:44.199 Fish and Wildlife Service. Hold that thought. 00:37:45.159 --> 00:37:47.760 I came from Northeastern North Carolina to run 00:37:47.760 --> 00:37:50.059 the Yellowstone Project, and I was the only person 00:37:50.059 --> 00:37:55.179 in the nation at that time that had run a wolf 00:37:55.179 --> 00:37:57.659 restoration project based on reintroductions. 00:37:58.159 --> 00:38:00.199 And that was the red wolf work in the southeastern 00:38:00.199 --> 00:38:04.039 United States. And if you understand the southeast, 00:38:04.199 --> 00:38:06.280 it's small landscapes, a lot of private land. 00:38:06.710 --> 00:38:08.969 There was no way you could responsibly let red 00:38:08.969 --> 00:38:11.949 wolves go and not have a very, very, very intensive 00:38:11.949 --> 00:38:14.869 field program. We were out all the time making 00:38:14.869 --> 00:38:17.210 sure that wolves weren't creating problems for 00:38:17.210 --> 00:38:20.130 people. Very, very intensive management. I brought 00:38:20.130 --> 00:38:24.510 that mindset to Yellowstone and the mindset served 00:38:24.510 --> 00:38:26.389 the Yellowstone project very well at the beginning 00:38:26.389 --> 00:38:29.809 because there are so few wolves involved. They 00:38:29.809 --> 00:38:32.570 deserved great care on our part to ensure their 00:38:32.570 --> 00:38:36.469 survival. In contrast, My US Fish and Wildlife 00:38:36.469 --> 00:38:41.050 Service colleagues were more More willing to 00:38:41.050 --> 00:38:44.889 just let things be hmm They were more willing. 00:38:44.989 --> 00:38:46.889 It's not a big deal Mike. They'll figure it out. 00:38:46.969 --> 00:38:48.510 We don't need to worry about this They'll figure 00:38:48.510 --> 00:38:50.869 it out, and I kept saying that's bullshit. That's 00:38:50.869 --> 00:38:54.000 absolute bullshit. You put them out there We 00:38:54.000 --> 00:38:56.519 put them out there. They're our responsibility. 00:38:56.739 --> 00:38:59.440 There's only nine or ten or eleven of them everybody 00:38:59.440 --> 00:39:02.860 counts It's absolutely bullshit to walk away 00:39:02.860 --> 00:39:05.420 from the challenge of intensive field work now 00:39:05.420 --> 00:39:07.119 you think well Why was this such a big deal? 00:39:07.519 --> 00:39:09.559 I? Didn't work for the US Fish and Wildlife Service 00:39:09.559 --> 00:39:12.519 that at time right I was wearing a green uniform 00:39:12.519 --> 00:39:15.599 for the National Park Service affecting important 00:39:15.599 --> 00:39:18.679 field work To advance the survival of wolves 00:39:18.679 --> 00:39:22.809 from Yellowstone outside the park, right? It 00:39:22.809 --> 00:39:25.070 was not something the Fish and Wildlife Service 00:39:25.070 --> 00:39:29.510 was predisposed to imagine as essential. And 00:39:29.510 --> 00:39:32.630 for me, it was like water on a duck's back. This 00:39:32.630 --> 00:39:35.949 is what you do. At the beginning of a restoration 00:39:35.949 --> 00:39:39.289 project, based on reintroductions, you go to 00:39:39.289 --> 00:39:42.829 great lengths to promote survival because they're 00:39:42.829 --> 00:39:47.210 your responsibility. The art form of restoration 00:39:47.210 --> 00:39:49.809 through reintroductions is to know when you're 00:39:49.809 --> 00:39:52.460 back away. When you've got five or six animals 00:39:52.460 --> 00:39:54.639 on the ground. Oh my gosh They're all very important 00:39:54.639 --> 00:39:57.719 when you got 55 or 65 now everybody's not quite 00:39:57.719 --> 00:39:59.940 so important Then you'd been the back away a 00:39:59.940 --> 00:40:03.659 bit and let nature take its course. It's a balancing 00:40:03.659 --> 00:40:07.380 act and I was convinced With the killing of number 00:40:07.380 --> 00:40:10.440 ten. We certainly were not where we would need 00:40:10.440 --> 00:40:15.360 to be to justify Yeah walking away. Yeah, so 00:40:15.360 --> 00:40:17.739 his death prompted a great deal of intensive 00:40:17.739 --> 00:40:20.159 field work on our part for another year or two 00:40:20.460 --> 00:40:23.519 to ensure the animals that were left succeeded. 00:40:24.639 --> 00:40:26.039 Well, I think, you know, one of the examples 00:40:26.039 --> 00:40:29.199 of how those great links he went to was at the 00:40:29.199 --> 00:40:31.539 time Wolf 10 was killed, his mate wasn't too 00:40:31.539 --> 00:40:34.500 far away and she was like super pregnant. I think 00:40:34.500 --> 00:40:37.159 she gave birth the day or two later after his 00:40:37.159 --> 00:40:39.199 death, right? Yeah. I mean, Ed, she might have 00:40:39.199 --> 00:40:41.420 already, but you're right. She was saddled with 00:40:41.420 --> 00:40:45.059 a litter. We knew that, that nothing else would 00:40:45.059 --> 00:40:48.179 explain what she was doing. And so here she is 00:40:48.179 --> 00:40:51.940 by herself. Her mate's dead, and most folks would 00:40:51.940 --> 00:40:54.579 know this, but all of this took place on the 00:40:54.579 --> 00:40:57.579 northern flanks of a spot called Mount Maurice. 00:40:58.159 --> 00:41:01.199 Mount Maurice, it's a rather modest mountain 00:41:01.199 --> 00:41:04.320 in Montana, no big deal, rounded at the top, 00:41:05.619 --> 00:41:09.099 but Mount Maurice sits on the southeastern flank 00:41:09.099 --> 00:41:14.079 of Red Lodge, Montana. I could sit in my hotel 00:41:14.079 --> 00:41:18.599 room in the Motel 8 in Red Lodge. put my headphones 00:41:18.599 --> 00:41:22.679 on, stick my antenna out the window of the hotel 00:41:22.679 --> 00:41:26.579 and hear their radio signals. Whoa, okay. They 00:41:26.579 --> 00:41:29.039 were within spitting distance of Red Lodge. Yeah. 00:41:29.159 --> 00:41:32.519 So when he's dead and she's not going anywhere 00:41:32.519 --> 00:41:36.719 because she's got a den, the idea of not intervening, 00:41:37.219 --> 00:41:40.030 the idea of of not catching those wolves and 00:41:40.030 --> 00:41:41.849 bringing them back. It's bullshit. Of course 00:41:41.849 --> 00:41:44.809 you intervene. You get mom, you get the puppies, 00:41:45.070 --> 00:41:47.130 and you bring them back to the park, which is 00:41:47.130 --> 00:41:50.170 exactly what we did. Perfect example of that 00:41:50.170 --> 00:41:52.809 intensive management at the early stages of the 00:41:52.809 --> 00:41:54.789 reintroduction, right? And I would be the first 00:41:54.789 --> 00:41:57.409 to admit, when you engage in those kinds of field 00:41:57.409 --> 00:42:00.369 activities, there's no room for error. So let's 00:42:00.369 --> 00:42:02.590 imagine, Ed, you and I are doing this work and 00:42:02.590 --> 00:42:06.690 we catch mom. And we know it's mom we see your 00:42:06.690 --> 00:42:08.670 teats. We can express milk from her teats. We 00:42:08.670 --> 00:42:12.309 know she's still nursing. We've got mom But we 00:42:12.309 --> 00:42:15.250 don't get the puppies. Yeah at that point all 00:42:15.250 --> 00:42:18.269 we could do it would be let mom go Right and 00:42:18.269 --> 00:42:21.050 while it's not that hard to catch a naive wolf 00:42:21.050 --> 00:42:23.530 Once they've been caught once or twice they get 00:42:23.530 --> 00:42:27.869 pretty smart So if you got your hands on mom 00:42:27.869 --> 00:42:32.519 boy, the the clock is ticking to get get the 00:42:32.519 --> 00:42:35.159 puppies. It is admittedly a high stakes operation. 00:42:35.760 --> 00:42:37.860 It was always my attitude is it will fuck it. 00:42:37.940 --> 00:42:41.699 We won't fail. Yeah. How did you find those? 00:42:42.519 --> 00:42:45.019 That's okay. This is a beautiful thing about 00:42:45.019 --> 00:42:47.400 a podcast is you can say whatever you want. Well, 00:42:47.559 --> 00:42:52.599 you just can't afford to fail. And we did. How 00:42:52.599 --> 00:42:54.380 the heck did you find those puppies after you 00:42:54.380 --> 00:42:58.679 caught the female? Oh, we knew where she was 00:42:58.679 --> 00:43:01.179 spending her time. uh from the radio collar right 00:43:01.179 --> 00:43:04.579 we we flew and we we'd circle the plane right 00:43:04.579 --> 00:43:07.840 above her and she's right down there and and 00:43:07.840 --> 00:43:09.519 that's the other thing important to note these 00:43:09.519 --> 00:43:11.619 these wolves at this time every single one of 00:43:11.619 --> 00:43:14.340 them's collared right well mom was the puppies 00:43:14.340 --> 00:43:15.800 weren't but all the other of course the puppies 00:43:15.800 --> 00:43:18.179 weren't yeah everybody that we released or radio 00:43:18.179 --> 00:43:20.739 collar sure sure right so we knew where she was 00:43:20.739 --> 00:43:24.940 keeping the puppies and we had time wasn't An 00:43:24.940 --> 00:43:27.320 obstacle we knew we had a week or two or three 00:43:27.320 --> 00:43:29.320 before the puppies would start moving around 00:43:29.320 --> 00:43:33.340 to any degree Yeah, so we we we set up mom to 00:43:33.340 --> 00:43:34.840 increase the odds that we could catch her when 00:43:34.840 --> 00:43:37.679 we wanted to catch her So we caught her and basically 00:43:37.679 --> 00:43:40.000 walked right to the spot where we expected the 00:43:40.000 --> 00:43:42.179 puppies to be and there they were and we grabbed 00:43:42.179 --> 00:43:44.000 them all and taken back to Yellowstone Park and 00:43:44.000 --> 00:43:46.599 put them in a pen and and at that point had the 00:43:46.599 --> 00:43:50.219 aim was to Excuse me. The aim was simply to grow 00:43:50.219 --> 00:43:54.579 them up To 35 40 45 pounds so they were big enough 00:43:54.579 --> 00:43:57.159 to go toe -to -toe with any coyote and you're 00:43:57.159 --> 00:44:01.000 gonna let him go again interesting very cool, 00:44:01.000 --> 00:44:04.800 but in that in that intensive effort you ended 00:44:04.800 --> 00:44:11.360 up kind of like it was a was a A very purposeful 00:44:11.360 --> 00:44:14.019 success, right? I mean how many puppies did you? 00:44:14.119 --> 00:44:16.059 Retrieve from her den there outside the park 00:44:16.059 --> 00:44:19.059 eight so now you go you lose the wolf outside 00:44:19.059 --> 00:44:21.619 the park But you go back into the park now with 00:44:21.619 --> 00:44:24.820 nine wolves that you're going to get back into 00:44:24.820 --> 00:44:27.340 the park, try to get oriented to staying in the 00:44:27.340 --> 00:44:32.159 park or being safer. So that was, in a sense, 00:44:32.239 --> 00:44:36.039 a very well managed success out of a not failure, 00:44:36.099 --> 00:44:38.219 but a horrible event where you lost this important 00:44:38.219 --> 00:44:42.000 wolf. It was simply the thing to do. And I'm 00:44:42.000 --> 00:44:46.000 of the mind that if you've given proper thought 00:44:46.000 --> 00:44:48.900 to something and it clearly is the thing to do. 00:44:49.440 --> 00:44:52.159 And you've done the best you can and it doesn't 00:44:52.159 --> 00:44:55.179 work out Because you can never guarantee success 00:44:55.179 --> 00:44:58.119 you could just go to the great degree to promote 00:44:58.119 --> 00:45:00.800 success Then I could say Ed. I'm sorry pal. We 00:45:00.800 --> 00:45:05.159 did the best we could right we got six puppies 00:45:05.159 --> 00:45:08.460 We saw two run away, and we couldn't catch them 00:45:08.460 --> 00:45:11.340 that the key to this kind of operation Because 00:45:11.340 --> 00:45:14.739 you can't leave Young wolves on their own that 00:45:14.739 --> 00:45:17.260 yeah, and she was still nursing so these little 00:45:17.260 --> 00:45:23.610 bitty guys The key is to simply be smart about 00:45:23.610 --> 00:45:27.329 how you do it and If you can't get it done properly 00:45:27.329 --> 00:45:30.449 you admit defeat and you you let animals go if 00:45:30.449 --> 00:45:32.869 you and I done it We I knew we had one ace in 00:45:32.869 --> 00:45:37.510 the hole Let mom go. Yeah. Yeah, let mom go now 00:45:37.510 --> 00:45:39.409 what she probably would have done in the presence 00:45:39.409 --> 00:45:41.429 of that degree of harassment We catch her we 00:45:41.429 --> 00:45:44.989 hang on to her for 12 18 hours. Ah shit, man. 00:45:44.989 --> 00:45:47.130 We still don't have the public I'll let mom go 00:45:47.130 --> 00:45:50.789 she probably would have been so bothered by all 00:45:50.789 --> 00:45:54.030 of that, she would have moved the litter. Yeah. 00:45:54.449 --> 00:45:56.650 And it's not the end of the world for gray wolves 00:45:56.650 --> 00:46:00.750 to move puppies from here to there, but all things 00:46:00.750 --> 00:46:02.769 being equal, you don't want to be the reason 00:46:02.769 --> 00:46:06.650 that she's moving them. 100%. We did the best 00:46:06.650 --> 00:46:12.170 we could in each case where we had to intervene 00:46:12.170 --> 00:46:16.659 so. The Rose Creek pack wasn't the only, we did 00:46:16.659 --> 00:46:18.880 the same thing to the Soda Butte pack. It's a 00:46:18.880 --> 00:46:21.500 different story, but the same idea. It was even 00:46:21.500 --> 00:46:23.300 a little more complicated with those guys because 00:46:23.300 --> 00:46:25.679 there were more wolves involved. But they were 00:46:25.679 --> 00:46:27.619 in a bad spot. They had a litter. They had a 00:46:27.619 --> 00:46:29.599 den. We can't leave them here. This is an accident 00:46:29.599 --> 00:46:32.219 waiting to happen. We don't have the luxury of 00:46:32.219 --> 00:46:34.719 saying, oh, there's 202 wolves. Tell them if 00:46:34.719 --> 00:46:36.440 we have to shoot those guys, it doesn't matter 00:46:36.440 --> 00:46:40.280 to the population. We couldn't say that. And 00:46:40.280 --> 00:46:42.800 so each and every time we went out and did this, 00:46:43.440 --> 00:46:46.480 intensive work, we were just as well prepared 00:46:46.480 --> 00:46:50.000 as we could be, and willing to say we did the 00:46:50.000 --> 00:46:54.659 best we could. Nobody can fault you. You really, 00:46:54.800 --> 00:46:57.639 truly, sincerely did the best you could as a 00:46:57.639 --> 00:47:00.960 public employee. Who's going to fault you? And 00:47:00.960 --> 00:47:04.420 if they do, to hell with them. Yeah, screw them. 00:47:05.820 --> 00:47:08.840 Yeah, that comes into a whole other discussion 00:47:08.840 --> 00:47:12.070 we could have some day. You and me about how 00:47:12.070 --> 00:47:14.489 public employees tend to be punching bags for 00:47:14.489 --> 00:47:17.670 the rest of the world Yeah, I never saw a $400 00:47:17.670 --> 00:47:23.469 hammer. I Never saw a $400 hammer either People 00:47:23.469 --> 00:47:25.909 that busted their ass on behalf of this country 00:47:25.909 --> 00:47:27.969 and I was proud for a time to be one of them 00:47:27.969 --> 00:47:30.889 You know what? I you know you and I worked for 00:47:30.889 --> 00:47:33.429 different parts of the same Department of Interior 00:47:33.429 --> 00:47:37.920 and and different parts of the interior and Yeah, 00:47:38.300 --> 00:47:40.559 I totally agree. Throughout my career, you know, 00:47:40.679 --> 00:47:43.460 there were maybe 10 % duds here and there because 00:47:43.460 --> 00:47:45.599 every place you work is going to have some duds, 00:47:46.000 --> 00:47:50.320 but 90 to 95 % of the employees I worked with 00:47:50.320 --> 00:47:52.599 were conscientious, hardcore people who cared 00:47:52.599 --> 00:47:55.619 about saving money for taxpayers and doing a 00:47:55.619 --> 00:48:00.340 good job. That's exactly right. 100%. So we have 00:48:00.340 --> 00:48:03.099 a lot to talk about, Mike, and I don't want to... 00:48:02.800 --> 00:48:06.079 abuse my time with you, but just briefly, let's 00:48:06.079 --> 00:48:08.840 wrap up on the Yellowstone Wolves. There's one 00:48:08.840 --> 00:48:11.980 thing I want to touch on with you though, and 00:48:11.980 --> 00:48:14.199 you've already touched on this a little bit, 00:48:14.460 --> 00:48:18.820 but how do wolf populations interact with their 00:48:18.820 --> 00:48:21.719 habitat and the prey species? So, you know, there's 00:48:21.719 --> 00:48:24.420 a lot of talk out there. You've heard them. We've 00:48:24.420 --> 00:48:27.800 all heard the myth that wolves are destroying 00:48:27.800 --> 00:48:30.320 hunting opportunities for elk hunters and deer 00:48:30.320 --> 00:48:32.840 hunters. Can you just talk a little bit about 00:48:32.840 --> 00:48:35.960 how they do interact and affect prey populations 00:48:35.960 --> 00:48:38.519 and prey behavior, and then how you measured 00:48:38.519 --> 00:48:45.300 that? Sure. Gray wolves have done very well in 00:48:45.300 --> 00:48:47.300 the northern Rocky Mountains. Because of the 00:48:47.300 --> 00:48:50.980 reintroductions in Idaho and Yellowstone, you 00:48:50.980 --> 00:48:56.820 now have three populations that interact. Idaho, 00:48:57.159 --> 00:49:00.699 northwestern Montana, Yellowstone. From a numerical 00:49:00.699 --> 00:49:04.059 perspective, it's been a wildly successful program. 00:49:05.320 --> 00:49:07.579 And some time ago, and we can talk about how 00:49:07.579 --> 00:49:10.239 delisting, how the lifting of federal protections 00:49:10.239 --> 00:49:13.500 actually came about. It's a fascinating story 00:49:13.500 --> 00:49:16.079 about the interplay between science and politics. 00:49:16.079 --> 00:49:21.980 Yeah, frustrating. But in the Northern Rocky 00:49:21.980 --> 00:49:25.639 Mountains today, and let's assume that conservatively 00:49:25.639 --> 00:49:28.300 between the Greddy Yellowstone in northwestern 00:49:28.300 --> 00:49:31.380 Montana and Idaho, there's, say, 2 ,000 wolves 00:49:31.380 --> 00:49:36.800 on the ground. But despite that number of animals, 00:49:37.860 --> 00:49:41.119 they don't kill many livestock. As I've said 00:49:41.119 --> 00:49:43.199 now for the third time, it's the atypical wolf 00:49:43.199 --> 00:49:46.099 that kills livestock. In Montana, as an example, 00:49:46.280 --> 00:49:48.719 on average, gray wolves each year are going to 00:49:48.719 --> 00:49:53.750 kill about 50 head of cattle. say 50 head of 00:49:53.750 --> 00:49:56.449 sheep. If numbers aren't right, they put you 00:49:56.449 --> 00:49:59.929 in the universe. There are, between cattle and 00:49:59.929 --> 00:50:02.250 sheep, you know, well over two million of those 00:50:02.250 --> 00:50:05.489 animals in the state of Montana. And we've mentioned 00:50:05.489 --> 00:50:07.769 on this podcast before, just if you look at USDA 00:50:07.769 --> 00:50:10.170 records, the cause of death of domestic animals 00:50:10.170 --> 00:50:12.750 out in the wild is not predation, it's disease. 00:50:13.150 --> 00:50:16.809 Yeah, but, you know, so gray wolves are not influencing 00:50:16.809 --> 00:50:20.210 the... Viability of ranching in the yeah in the 00:50:20.210 --> 00:50:22.030 Rocky Mountain West similarly when you look at 00:50:22.030 --> 00:50:24.909 gray wolves and and native prey Elk and deer 00:50:24.909 --> 00:50:28.170 for example all three states Wyoming, Montana, 00:50:28.309 --> 00:50:31.929 Idaho Consistently say she was come to Wyoming. 00:50:32.269 --> 00:50:34.690 You got we got record numbers of elk and deer 00:50:34.690 --> 00:50:38.949 and record hunting opportunities Montana there's 00:50:38.949 --> 00:50:41.070 more deer and elk in the state today than there 00:50:41.070 --> 00:50:43.409 were before gray wolves were introduced There 00:50:43.409 --> 00:50:48.230 is no evidence at all that gray wolves are impacting 00:50:48.230 --> 00:50:51.409 native prey populations to such a degree that 00:50:51.409 --> 00:50:54.349 hunting is now an unsuccessful endeavor in the 00:50:54.349 --> 00:50:58.550 state of Montana. It's not. That said, we know 00:50:58.550 --> 00:51:03.329 that gray wolves can affect prey population dynamics, 00:51:03.750 --> 00:51:06.050 and certainly in small areas. And so, Ed, it 00:51:06.050 --> 00:51:08.590 might be true that your favorite honey hole, 00:51:09.130 --> 00:51:12.110 as a kid you hunted it 30 years ago, and my gosh, 00:51:12.150 --> 00:51:16.039 you know, and now it's harder. And that may be 00:51:16.039 --> 00:51:17.860 the case, but there's still great opportunities 00:51:17.860 --> 00:51:20.679 to hunt big game in Montana. The opportunities 00:51:20.679 --> 00:51:23.820 may not be distributed the way they were historically. 00:51:24.300 --> 00:51:27.199 We know in the state of Montana, for example, 00:51:27.360 --> 00:51:32.079 that many of the elk management units that are 00:51:32.079 --> 00:51:36.400 in wolf country support more elk than the state 00:51:36.400 --> 00:51:41.099 would wish. There is tremendous opportunity for 00:51:41.099 --> 00:51:44.969 big game hunting in Montana and Wyoming and Idaho. 00:51:46.550 --> 00:51:50.309 Those are the facts. Now this is a fact, too. 00:51:51.929 --> 00:51:57.690 Despite that, no significant impact to big game 00:51:57.690 --> 00:51:59.809 hunting, no significant impact to the livestock 00:51:59.809 --> 00:52:03.829 industry. Despite that, the level of violence 00:52:03.829 --> 00:52:06.170 perpetuated on gray wolves in the northern Rocky 00:52:06.170 --> 00:52:10.909 Mountains is stunning. Yeah. I never expected 00:52:10.909 --> 00:52:17.139 it. And it is allowed by laws and regulations 00:52:17.139 --> 00:52:21.239 passed by elected officials and enacted by appointed 00:52:21.239 --> 00:52:24.000 officials, wildlife commissioners for example, 00:52:24.739 --> 00:52:27.699 that allow excessive needless killing of gray 00:52:27.699 --> 00:52:31.659 wolves, ostensibly because there's too many. 00:52:32.360 --> 00:52:35.119 And then I would say to my colleagues in the 00:52:35.119 --> 00:52:37.019 Senate, I said, wait a minute, there's too many 00:52:37.019 --> 00:52:43.119 gray wolves in Montana, huh? Why? And that they'd 00:52:43.119 --> 00:52:45.079 cite livestock and big I said hang on hang on 00:52:45.079 --> 00:52:47.960 hang on our Department of Livestock has the data 00:52:47.960 --> 00:52:52.039 our fishing game Department has the data The 00:52:52.039 --> 00:52:55.420 data they have don't support your claims of conflict 00:52:55.420 --> 00:53:00.760 and and so I've concluded Ed that this Ridiculous 00:53:00.760 --> 00:53:05.039 amount of violence needless killing Is a consequence 00:53:05.039 --> 00:53:08.300 that decision -makers don't give a shit. Yeah, 00:53:08.320 --> 00:53:11.449 they don't give a shit that they are On average, 00:53:11.650 --> 00:53:14.449 I would have you believe ecological illiterates. 00:53:15.329 --> 00:53:18.949 They don't know that predation is a very important 00:53:18.949 --> 00:53:21.849 ecological process. And consequently, they don't 00:53:21.849 --> 00:53:25.030 give a shit about predators. They don't give 00:53:25.030 --> 00:53:28.070 a shit. One little story about how much disregard 00:53:28.070 --> 00:53:31.210 they will exhibit. The last bill I brought in 00:53:31.210 --> 00:53:33.110 the Montana Senate, it was a simple little bill. 00:53:33.530 --> 00:53:35.949 A little bill that said you can't torture coyotes 00:53:35.949 --> 00:53:40.090 to death. Good bill. couldn't you can't torture 00:53:40.090 --> 00:53:43.849 cars today you can't run him down with the snowmobile 00:53:43.849 --> 00:53:48.050 and run them over repeatedly to kill him i bring 00:53:48.050 --> 00:53:50.469 the bill to the senate fishing game committee 00:53:50.469 --> 00:53:52.989 i was the ranking minority member at the time 00:53:52.989 --> 00:53:55.090 and i knew what my committee members were going 00:53:55.090 --> 00:53:58.489 to do it was table the bill was tabled on a party 00:53:58.489 --> 00:54:00.909 line vote republic said i was a shitty idea might 00:54:00.909 --> 00:54:03.369 table this bill my democratic colleagues and 00:54:03.369 --> 00:54:04.809 i don't know we should pass it to the full sense 00:54:04.809 --> 00:54:07.639 of the bill gets tabled And before I go any further, 00:54:07.780 --> 00:54:11.420 Ed, please know, all the Bill said was, you can't 00:54:11.420 --> 00:54:13.539 run him over with a snowmobile as a form of torture. 00:54:13.940 --> 00:54:16.119 You can still hunt him with a snowmobile. You 00:54:16.119 --> 00:54:17.900 can still run that little coyote to the point 00:54:17.900 --> 00:54:19.679 where she can't take another step. She's laying 00:54:19.679 --> 00:54:21.900 in the snow, exhausted, looking up at you. At 00:54:21.900 --> 00:54:25.460 that point, Ed, you gotta kill that animal in 00:54:25.460 --> 00:54:27.940 some humane manner. It said nothing about how 00:54:27.940 --> 00:54:30.360 many animals you could kill. It simply said you 00:54:30.360 --> 00:54:33.460 can't torture him to death. So the bills table 00:54:33.460 --> 00:54:36.179 in committee as okay fine fuck it. I knew that 00:54:36.179 --> 00:54:38.639 was gonna happen So as a sitting senator was 00:54:38.639 --> 00:54:42.500 my right I could say to the full Senate Gee whiz 00:54:42.500 --> 00:54:45.139 guys are fishing game committee made a mistake. 00:54:45.139 --> 00:54:48.619 They table this important bill I move that we 00:54:48.619 --> 00:54:51.599 take that bill away from that committee and bring 00:54:51.599 --> 00:54:54.340 it to the full Senate for consideration Love 00:54:54.340 --> 00:54:57.260 it. I made what's called a blast motion. I'm 00:54:57.260 --> 00:55:00.440 gonna blast the bill out of the committee So 00:55:00.440 --> 00:55:03.380 here's how that works. I stand up and I say to 00:55:03.380 --> 00:55:05.579 the chairman of the day, Mr. Chairman, I move 00:55:05.579 --> 00:55:08.340 to remove Senate Bill 221 from Senate Fish and 00:55:08.340 --> 00:55:10.519 Game and put it on our agenda for tomorrow. Thank 00:55:10.519 --> 00:55:12.780 you, Mr. Chairman. At that point, the chairman 00:55:12.780 --> 00:55:14.860 says, Senator Phillips, and I have the chance 00:55:14.860 --> 00:55:18.579 to take 15, 20, 30 seconds to speak about the 00:55:18.579 --> 00:55:21.179 procedural motion. I'm not lobbying for the bill 00:55:21.179 --> 00:55:23.679 so much. I'm lobbying for the idea that needs 00:55:23.679 --> 00:55:25.820 to be discussed. And I said, thank you, Mr. Chairman, 00:55:25.960 --> 00:55:27.800 members of the Senate. I hope you'll support 00:55:27.800 --> 00:55:31.280 this procedural motion. Senate bill 221, similar 00:55:31.280 --> 00:55:34.460 bill to prevent torture of coyotes. If we knew, 00:55:34.780 --> 00:55:36.639 folks, if we knew that we had a kid, a young 00:55:36.639 --> 00:55:39.480 boy in our neighborhood using his bicycle to 00:55:39.480 --> 00:55:41.480 run over the neighborhood cats, we'd be concerned 00:55:41.480 --> 00:55:44.059 for that boy's mental health. Montanans are better 00:55:44.059 --> 00:55:46.420 than torturing animals to death. We need to talk 00:55:46.420 --> 00:55:48.519 about this bill. Please support this motion. 00:55:48.800 --> 00:55:51.900 Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Nice. I sit down. It's 00:55:51.900 --> 00:55:56.900 a non -dematable motion. We got to vote. And 00:55:56.900 --> 00:56:00.199 I had I had whip I I told my Republican friends. 00:56:00.219 --> 00:56:02.460 This is coming. Please support me I'd served 00:56:02.460 --> 00:56:04.260 with many of these guys for 14 years. I played 00:56:04.260 --> 00:56:08.400 poker with them. I drank their whiskey As if 00:56:08.400 --> 00:56:10.639 you know help me out here guys, yeah, I'm not 00:56:10.639 --> 00:56:11.880 saying you got a vote for the bill But at least 00:56:11.880 --> 00:56:16.300 have the discussion. Yeah That bill that motion. 00:56:16.300 --> 00:56:19.340 I'm sorry that motion Died on a party line vote 00:56:19.340 --> 00:56:21.460 18 Democrats said sure we ought to talk about 00:56:21.460 --> 00:56:25.219 that idea and 32 Democrats said no It's okay 00:56:25.400 --> 00:56:27.699 After the session ended that day. I went up to 00:56:27.699 --> 00:56:30.500 a friend of mine got him Fred Thomas. Okay, red 00:56:30.500 --> 00:56:34.480 was the majority leader Republican majority leader 00:56:34.480 --> 00:56:37.340 friend of mine. I said Fred Michael Lord, dude 00:56:37.340 --> 00:56:40.639 You couldn't even throw me a bone on this perceive 00:56:40.639 --> 00:56:43.519 what my gosh man. He said yeah Mike You were 00:56:43.519 --> 00:56:46.440 really looking out for us with that idea. I said 00:56:46.440 --> 00:56:49.460 Fred. What kind of people do you represent? Yeah, 00:56:49.619 --> 00:56:51.820 I would want you to stand in support of torturing 00:56:51.820 --> 00:56:54.630 coyotes to death At that point I had to walk 00:56:54.630 --> 00:56:57.329 away from Fred, but from that point forward, 00:56:57.730 --> 00:57:03.110 Ed, for the last month of my service as a Montana 00:57:03.110 --> 00:57:06.590 senator, I could not pray with my colleagues. 00:57:06.989 --> 00:57:10.030 Every day when the Senate comes together as a 00:57:10.030 --> 00:57:12.269 full Senate, the committee of the whole Senate, 00:57:12.949 --> 00:57:16.010 we do two things to kick off the work. We say 00:57:16.010 --> 00:57:19.730 a prayer, typically a Judeo -Christian prayer, 00:57:20.030 --> 00:57:23.500 and we pledge allegiance to the flag. From that 00:57:23.500 --> 00:57:26.840 day forward I would step into the anteroom When 00:57:26.840 --> 00:57:30.719 the prayer was being delivered I could not Cotton 00:57:30.719 --> 00:57:33.760 their hypocrisy any longer. I don't know what 00:57:33.760 --> 00:57:37.099 God worth worshipping would want you to torture 00:57:37.099 --> 00:57:40.980 one of her creations When the prayer was I stood 00:57:40.980 --> 00:57:43.380 the answer. I was polite. I didn't make a fanfare. 00:57:43.380 --> 00:57:45.900 I'm out there minding my own business Yeah, I 00:57:45.900 --> 00:57:47.780 could hear the prayer and I'd step back into 00:57:47.780 --> 00:57:50.360 the chamber notably on the Republican side of 00:57:50.360 --> 00:57:52.610 the aisle and pledge allegiance to the flag, 00:57:52.710 --> 00:57:55.250 and then I'd go sit down. And it was so hard 00:57:55.250 --> 00:57:57.449 for me, and I'd served with these guys for years. 00:57:57.769 --> 00:58:01.449 I could no longer bring myself to pray with them 00:58:01.449 --> 00:58:04.969 because they couldn't see the wisdom of standing 00:58:04.969 --> 00:58:11.690 against torturing coyotes to death. Well, I think 00:58:11.690 --> 00:58:14.090 we're seeing the same thing, perpetuating itself 00:58:14.090 --> 00:58:17.730 in the West. There's been some perfect examples 00:58:17.730 --> 00:58:19.789 in the news of wolves being tortured. And like 00:58:19.789 --> 00:58:22.530 you said, just pretty violent aggressive ways 00:58:22.530 --> 00:58:24.230 that people are going after wolves. It's not 00:58:24.230 --> 00:58:25.989 like they're hunting wolves. They're killing 00:58:25.989 --> 00:58:28.289 wolves, you know, torturing and killing. There's, 00:58:28.309 --> 00:58:31.150 there's, it's just, it's a degree of needless 00:58:31.150 --> 00:58:35.650 violence. I never anticipated. I have not ever 00:58:35.650 --> 00:58:37.989 stood in opposition to lethal removal of gray 00:58:37.989 --> 00:58:40.610 wolves to resolve a conflict. At some point, 00:58:40.630 --> 00:58:42.670 if you've tried all these other things and you 00:58:42.670 --> 00:58:45.690 still have a problem, I don't even stand in opposition 00:58:45.690 --> 00:58:51.480 to, to fur trapping. We sapiens have used fur 00:58:51.480 --> 00:58:54.639 for as long as we walk this planet, call it 300 00:58:54.639 --> 00:58:57.460 ,000 years. And if I'm going to go out and shoot 00:58:57.460 --> 00:59:00.340 a ring neck pheasant, because I like bird hunting, 00:59:00.820 --> 00:59:03.739 I can't criticize somebody for being a responsible 00:59:03.739 --> 00:59:07.380 for Trapper. Yeah. No, it's responsible. That 00:59:07.380 --> 00:59:09.579 is the key. And, you know, a friend of mine describes 00:59:09.579 --> 00:59:12.860 it as hunting is the process of going out and, 00:59:12.860 --> 00:59:15.760 you know, tracking, stalking and then humanely 00:59:15.760 --> 00:59:18.829 killing. It's not. It's not some sort of thrill 00:59:18.829 --> 00:59:21.329 kill. It's not some sort of joyous activity that 00:59:21.329 --> 00:59:23.369 you go out and you laugh and you giggle the more 00:59:23.369 --> 00:59:26.670 the animal suffers. I would say to folks that 00:59:26.670 --> 00:59:29.210 are listening, gray wolves are really good at 00:59:29.210 --> 00:59:32.170 what they do when they get a toehold. Gray wolves 00:59:32.170 --> 00:59:34.329 are going to persist in the Northern Rocky Mountains. 00:59:36.630 --> 00:59:40.170 But we need a different collection of elected 00:59:40.170 --> 00:59:42.809 and appointed officials that will change the 00:59:42.809 --> 00:59:47.000 rules and regulations. So needless killing. Isn't 00:59:47.000 --> 00:59:52.260 so commonly Taking place Yeah, I think you may 00:59:52.260 --> 00:59:54.400 have just answered the next question I was going 00:59:54.400 --> 00:59:59.059 to ask you is a I think my Assumption from hearing 00:59:59.059 --> 01:00:02.280 you talk is that you know your overall thoughts 01:00:02.280 --> 01:00:05.739 on success are it's been successful Well very 01:00:05.739 --> 01:00:08.900 much so yeah very much so and and and I will 01:00:08.900 --> 01:00:13.949 say in ways that at least one way that was never 01:00:13.949 --> 01:00:17.510 imagined, and it speaks to my current outfit, 01:00:17.670 --> 01:00:20.409 the Turner Endangered Species Fund. People will 01:00:20.409 --> 01:00:22.469 ask me, you know, what's the value of gray wolves 01:00:22.469 --> 01:00:25.090 and Yellowstone, and lots of people cite Yellowstone, 01:00:25.769 --> 01:00:27.989 and lots of people speak about trophic cascades 01:00:27.989 --> 01:00:31.030 and the ecological consequences of wolf predation. 01:00:31.190 --> 01:00:34.250 Those are fine answers. For me, the significance 01:00:34.250 --> 01:00:36.809 of Yellowstone's wolf project is that it gave 01:00:36.809 --> 01:00:41.210 rise to bigger ideas, that the Yellowstone Wolf 01:00:41.210 --> 01:00:45.090 Project was a birthing ground for bigger ideas 01:00:45.090 --> 01:00:48.110 that might never have surfaced if that project 01:00:48.110 --> 01:00:50.630 had not gone forward. The best example I can 01:00:50.630 --> 01:00:55.030 give you is the Turner Endangered Species Fund 01:00:55.030 --> 01:00:58.309 that Ted and I co -founded back in. Conceptually, 01:00:58.650 --> 01:01:01.269 intellectually, we were connected in 1995 and 01:01:01.269 --> 01:01:04.670 1996. We actually functionalized that connection 01:01:04.670 --> 01:01:10.440 in 1997. Ted was motivated by the inspiration 01:01:10.440 --> 01:01:13.039 he gained by many things, including the Yellowstone 01:01:13.039 --> 01:01:17.179 Wolf Project. I was motivated by my experience 01:01:17.179 --> 01:01:20.179 with red wolves and gray wolves and private land, 01:01:20.659 --> 01:01:22.699 because ultimately what the Turner Endangered 01:01:22.699 --> 01:01:25.119 Species Fund aimed to do was illustrate that 01:01:25.119 --> 01:01:27.980 private land could be managed to be beachheads 01:01:27.980 --> 01:01:31.539 of security for species listed under the Endangered 01:01:31.539 --> 01:01:34.659 Species Act. Ted and I came together. on this 01:01:34.659 --> 01:01:36.920 common ground of making sure everybody understood 01:01:36.920 --> 01:01:39.639 private land can really matter. On purpose, it 01:01:39.639 --> 01:01:43.699 can really matter. And since day one, the Turner 01:01:43.699 --> 01:01:46.659 Endangered Species Fund has stood as the most 01:01:46.659 --> 01:01:49.739 significant private effort in the world to use 01:01:49.739 --> 01:01:53.260 reintroductions of imperiled species to restore 01:01:53.260 --> 01:01:56.480 viable populations to private land, populations 01:01:56.480 --> 01:01:59.519 that count toward federal recovery objectives. 01:01:59.840 --> 01:02:04.780 That is all a consequence. to some extent, the 01:02:04.780 --> 01:02:07.900 inspiration that Ted drew from the Yellowstone 01:02:07.900 --> 01:02:12.260 Wolf Project. Very, very cool. The more private 01:02:12.260 --> 01:02:15.780 public collaboration is needed because it's always 01:02:15.780 --> 01:02:19.340 successful. Okay, Mike I think that is the perfect 01:02:19.340 --> 01:02:22.019 way to end our discussion on the the gray wolves 01:02:22.019 --> 01:02:24.340 in the Yellowstone area the northern Rockies 01:02:24.340 --> 01:02:27.099 we're gonna split this episode into two episodes 01:02:27.099 --> 01:02:29.539 and When we come back next week, we're gonna 01:02:29.539 --> 01:02:32.800 jump to red wolves and Mexican wolves and Colorado 01:02:32.800 --> 01:02:35.860 wolves Okay, everybody. Thanks for tuning in 01:02:35.860 --> 01:02:37.900 to part one of our interview with Mike Phillips. 01:02:37.920 --> 01:02:40.920 We'll see you next time for part two Thanks for 01:02:40.920 --> 01:02:44.159 listening Nature's Secret Service is written 01:02:44.159 --> 01:02:47.050 and produced by me Ed Newcomer and is co -produced 01:02:47.050 --> 01:02:50.570 by the DHTV team here at California State University 01:02:50.570 --> 01:02:53.150 Dominguez Hills. Follow us on social media and 01:02:53.150 --> 01:02:55.429 connect with us online at naturessecretservice 01:02:55.429 --> 01:02:56.090 .com.