If you want to learn more about the topics of
today's episode, visit the podcast website at
naturessecretservice .com. Thanks for listening.
OK, people, listen up. Here we go. This is Nature's
Secret Service, the podcast that puts you in
the room with the men and women of wildlife law
enforcement. I'm your host, Ed Newcomer. And
of course, you know I was a special agent with
the US Fish and Wildlife Service for more than
20 years. And today, we actually have two guests
with us. coming in remotely from their homes
around the country. And I'm super happy to have
these two gentlemen here because I knew them
while I was a special agent and I always loved
being around them. Paul Whalen and Steve McGone
are our guests today. Both are retired special
agents from the U .S. Fish and Wildlife Service.
I'll introduce Paul, give you a little background
on him first. Although he was a criminal justice
major in college, I don't think he really thought
he was going to end up a federal agent because
for three years after he graduated from college,
Paul actually played professional golf. He was
a professional golfer, which is totally cool,
but he eventually took a job as a background
investigator for the civil service commission.
And then three years after that, he was hired
to be a special agent for the U S fish and wildlife
service. Paul Wayland retired from the service
in 2007 and he's now back to professionally golfing
and he runs his own. prestigious golf coaching
service called Paul Wayland Golf LLC. Steve McGone
is our other guest. Steve started his career
as a Montana State game warden and worked as
a warden for 10 years before he was hired by
the U .S. Fish and Wildlife Service to be a special
agent. He retired in 2006 and he's an avid hunter
and houndsman, which is a very unique thing to
do. I was fascinated by hounds. Both Paul and
Steve served their entire special agent careers
in the Western United States. And like me, they
both kind of got their start in Los Angeles,
where also like me, they had the opportunity
to work with and be trained by special agent
Marie Palladini, who you probably remember from
season one of this podcast. I wanted these two
guys on because number one, they're super fun,
and they're super fun together. In 1995, the
very year that wolves were returned to the wild
in Yellowstone National Park in Idaho, both Steve
and Paul were stationed in Idaho, basically ground
zero for wolf reintroduction, but also ground
zero for a lot of anti -government sentiment
and activity in the United States. Paul Whelan,
thank you for being on the episode. Thank you
for joining us. It's great to see you again.
I'm so happy you're here. Thanks for having me,
Ed. Really appreciate it. It's going to be a
fun story to tell. It is. And Steve Magone, thanks
so much for being here. I miss you guys. It's
so great to see you again. Oh, thanks. Thanks
for having me. Yeah. Just, you know, I wish we
could have, uh, we had been recording when you
and I, the three of us were kind of chatting
as we were getting all the technical stuff figured
out for today because Steve and Paul together,
you guys worked together a lot in the field.
Obviously you knew each other a long time, your
whole careers. Uh, and you, you are so fun to
watch banter. Steve, just before we started recording,
you were about to tell me a story about working
with Paul near the Salton sea in Southern California.
I want you to go ahead and tell you that story
before we jump into our, our Wolf case. Well,
it was a long time ago, but as best as I can
remember. We were down there to work salt and
sea and check tuck hunters, goose hunters, and
we had a room in this motel and we shared the
room to save money, basically. I knew that he
was some kind of a sleepwalker. I didn't know
he was a scary sleepwalker. Like one time he
walked outside and he was sound asleep. And one
other time, I'm asleep in bed but I feel like
something's watching me. And I wake up and Paul
is standing there with a knife. Wait a minute.
Yeah. It was a little knife. Yeah, it was just
a little one. It was a little pocket knife. I
could tell he was asleep though. So I hollered
at him and he woke up pretty quick. I asked him
what the heck he was doing but he didn't know.
Wow. Yeah. Paul, I'm going to give you a chance
to respond to that accusation. Yeah, I mean,
there's nothing to respond to, really. That was
the last time we ever shared a room together.
I can tell you that. I mean, and I've been prone
to sleepwalking my whole life. When I was a kid,
I walked off a deck that was about close to 20
feet high. Wow. Paul, I never knew this about
you. Yeah, that's what happened to my brain.
That's why I got hired by Fish and Wildlife.
But luckily I fell into a really soft flower
garden that was soft dirt like topsoil just put
in. I walked into swimming pools and yeah, so.
Wow. That was the first with a knife. And last
time we ever shared a room together. Well, I
feel a little guilty because I feel like we're
revealing some type of, you know, confidential
information. I've had it checked out by shrinks
and neurologists. I'm fine. All right. Well,
we'll talk later. If you want us to edit this
part out, we can do that. It was good for me,
Ed, because it made me a much lighter sleeper.
Exactly. Keeps you on your toes, right? Yeah.
Yeah, that's right. Yeah. I love hearing stories
about agents who worked in the Los Angeles field
office, because we all, you know, that's a very
diverse duty station to work, but all of us,
anybody who's worked there has the shared experience
of working alongside state game wardens in the
Salton Sea area on duck hunters and goose hunters.
But we also have the shared experience of working
dove hunters in the El Centro Valley there. And
it's a unique experience to, you know, work those
those, uh, hunting seasons alongside state game
wardens when often, you know, it's a hundred
degrees out and you're trying to force something.
Yeah, but everybody's got stories from working
those, those times. Um, anyway, we both worked
there and, uh, in LA Steve left before I did,
but we became really close and we've remained
really close friends ever since. And We worked
real close together and had a lot of good times.
And like I said, we're still really good friends.
I think that is amazing. I have really super
close friends from my time as an agent too that
I've had my whole career and continue to maintain.
And they're some of my best friends of my entire
life. So that's very cool. And it shows. When
you guys are together and you're talking, it
definitely shows. And I think from the context
of the case we're going to talk about today,
I think it was really valuable to be partnered
up on this investigation with somebody who you
knew very well, you trusted very much, and who
was your friend, regardless of whether or not
they show up in the middle of the night holding
a knife asleep. And before we jump right into
the case, I just want to give some context to
where you were working at the time. this would
have been around, this would, this incident occurred
that we're going to talk about today in 1995,
which was the year wolves were released or reintroduced.
And looking at what was going on in the Pacific
Northwest, Idaho, Washington, Montana, in 1995,
look, I just want to give listeners and watchers
a little bit of an understanding of timeline.
Um, you know, In the 80s, mid -80s, late 80s,
there were groups known as the Aryan nations
in the order were operating in that area, very
active, very anti -government. The Ruby Ridge
standoff occurred in August of 1992 where an
FBI agent shot and killed Randy Weaver's wife
and infant son accidentally, but in that standoff.
And then, of course, Waco, the Waco standoff,
which was not in Idaho, in Texas, but in February
of 1993. But a lot of the anti -government sentiment
in Idaho and Eastern Washington at that time
was heavily impacted by what happened at Waco
in 93. So can you guys just each respectively
just tell us a little bit, in 1995, What was
it like to be a federal agent trying to work
in Idaho? Did you sense a lot of that anti -government
feeling or what was your experience? Let's start
with Paul. I can start at that 100%. I mean,
we were not respected. We were not wanted. We
were not liked by a lot of people. In 1992, I
had already been... charged and arrested in a
county called Gem County just north of Boise
where I was stationed for legally going out on
private land to check goose hunters. Whoa, Paul,
I never knew I never knew this as an agent as
a badge carrying gun wearing agent doing your
job, you were arrested by locals. Yeah, well,
wasn't physically arrested, but I was charged
by criminal complaint and served. Right. And
it ended up being transferred to federal court
because I was acting under the authority of my
duties. It was ultimately dismissed by a magistrate
judge under the open fields doctor. Yes, of course.
We all know basically states we can go in open
fields to conduct their business. Right. But
that's how it was. I mean, we were not liked.
We were not really wanted. And there was a lot
of anti -government sentiment in that area. Jack
booted thugs. Yeah, that's how we were referred
to by anybody who didn't like us, that's for
sure. Steve, what was your experience similar?
You know, it wasn't as bad. I lived in Idaho
Falls in southeastern Idaho instead of Boise.
Actually, the favorite part of my whole district
was probably Limhi County, the salmon area. But
I didn't run into too much of that around Idaho
Falls at all. But a lot of my case work was not
in Idaho Falls. Some of it was coming out of
Yellowstone Park with illegal elk. That was in
88, the year of the... the big Yellowstone fire.
Right. So I didn't have nearly as much of that
in Southeast Idaho like Paul did. Okay. Well,
that's good because that makes it tough to do
your job when you're, you know, you're, you're
watching for bad guys, but you're also, you don't
know who in the public you can trust, you know,
that's, that's tough. What happened, Ed, was
when you're an agent in Idaho and you're sending
out you know a lot of the wildlife is killed
in Idaho and then taken to other states and then
you send leads out and those agents will interview
them and send the send the investigation back
to you and everyone is really happy when you're
catching non -residents killing uh bighorn sheep
or elk illegally you know and taking them and
then you end up catching them. But it's a little
different when you catch some of the good old
boys doing the same stuff. And then yeah, there
was animosity there, that's for sure. Yeah, isn't
that interesting? Yeah, catch everybody, catch
all the outsiders, but don't bother the locals,
right? Yeah. I will say this, Ed, we had like,
we always had great support from Idaho fishing
game officers. And it just seemed like when in
my area, the further remote you got, the more
kind of troubles you had with people and sometimes
even law enforcement. Interesting. I think that
last statement, even with law enforcement, is
going to be very apropos as we go through this
story today. One aside, too, that I think is
really interesting, you guys both having worked
in LA, I think you'll appreciate this. When I
was in LA, I was always, you know, you don't
think of the Los Angeles field office is doing
a lot of big game work and we don't do a lot
of obviously field investigations related to
big game work. But we did respond to a lot of
leads from agents from the Western US because
you know, people from Los Angeles travel to the
Western Rocky Mountain States to go big game
hunting and they sometimes commit violations
and take those trophies back to LA, which would
be a LAC act violation. So I ended up, you know,
in my career, I did a lot of big game investigations
associated with leads from agents like you guys
who had suspects back in LA, which was always
kind of fun and interesting. Um, but you know,
you don't think about that. The LA agents do
do some big game work, but it's usually following
up on leads for agents outside of California
or Los Angeles. Anyway. Well, you know, when
I, When I first got to Los Angeles, uh, Marie
Palladini was a senior resident agent. Yep. And
she could tell, I mean, I came from Phillipsburg,
a town that had one street light, which they
did away with to Los Angeles. And I, it took
a while to adjust. I mean, it took me a while
to figure out how to even get to the office and
back to my house for a while. But one of the
first cases she assigned me was. an elk that
had been killed illegally in Idaho and then taken
to Los Angeles area. So that made me feel at
home. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, probably made
you feel like, hey, I can definitely work here
for sure, right? Yeah. I knew how to do that.
Yeah. It's funny. I think one of the first things
she assigned to me when I was her trainee was
investigation involving a moose trophy that had
been brought back to LA from somewhere in the
Rockies. I can't remember where. I was much less
able to, I was much less equipped to deal with
that than you were. Okay. So the story that we're
going to tell you today really begins January,
1995, when wolves are reintroduced to the greater
Yellowstone area, including central Idaho. The
Idaho wolves were the first release. They were
not in what they call kind of habituation pens.
They were just released. And Steve, tell us a
little bit about, give us an introduction to
this case. Tell us about this wolf that we're
going to talk about today when it was released
and how it came to your attention as a law enforcement
officer. Well, they were released mostly along
the Meadow Fork. of the salmon in the Frank Church.
Some of them were released at Corn Creek, which
is at the end of the road going down the main
salmon where below where it hits the middle fork.
And that was on January 20th. And about eight
days later, the Wolf B -13 was its ear tag, was
shot on the Hussey Ranch near Elk Bend, Idaho,
which is south of Salmon. Okay, so shortly after
it was released, it ends up shot. How did it
come to your attention that the wolf had been
shot? Well, on the 30th of January, the Limhi
County Sheriff's Office called me and told me
about it. And at the time, I didn't understand
why there was a delay. because a sheriff had
been notified the day before, but he chose not
to notify me until the 30th. And then it turns
out other people had been notified on the 28th
and had been there. So I don't know exactly why
he waited so long, but they did. Okay. And so
what did you do next once you get that report
from the Sheriff's Office delayed report? What's
your next step? Well, he called me at home and
I went up there. And again, it seemed kind of
odd. He had me meet him at the Sheriff's Office
and he had already been down there. And then
he and I traveled down to the Hussey Ranch where
he introduced us. And then I began my investigation
on the Wolf, calf carcass. Okay, so yeah, and
introduced you to who? Who did he introduce you
to? Gene Hussey. Gene Hussey, the owner of the
ranch? Yes. Okay, so just to summarize, this
dead wolf is, according to the sheriff's office,
been shot, and it's on Hussey's ranch, private
property. Right. And you mentioned a calf. There
was something about this wolf, there was some
controversy about a calf, you know, a cattle.
Yeah, it was a... the major controversy and see
before I ever got there the um Hussey had discovered
this dead wolf as the story goes the dead wolf
and the dead calf and he called uh among other
things the local veterinarian to come out and
do a necropsy on the calf and the wolf Okay.
Yeah. Also the, uh, Idaho farm bureau had been
out there filming some of the Idaho cattleman's
association had showed up. Um, it had snowed,
but there is footprints all over the place. I
mean, you couldn't, you couldn't tell anything
from the tracks, what had went on. Some people
surmise that maybe snowmobilers had shot it.
We don't know. You say tracks, you mean human
tracks or animal tracks? Human tracks and vehicle
tracks. Okay. So just another good thing to know
for listeners and watchers is that so when wolves
were reintroduced, the wolves inside Yellowstone
National Park, obviously they're protected as
long as they're inside the park because there's
no hunting in the park. Wolves outside the park
any wolf outside the park would have been protected
by the Endangered Species Act, but because they
were reintroduced species They were protected,
but they could be Taken or shot if they if they
engaged in certain behaviors and one of those
might have been Praying on domestic cattle or
livestock, right? But there would have been there
would have been a process for that To to get
permission to do that, correct? Well, no, I mean
if Say Mr. Hussey had went out and if he had
seen this wolf killing one of his calves or one
of the mother cows or whatever, he could have
shot it. Okay. He could take action just in the
moment immediately. Absolutely. And I, you know,
nobody would have a problem with that. They need
to protect their property and ultimately wolves
need to be managed somehow. Anyway, you just
can't have that. So Was Hussie claiming though
that he shot this wolf because it was preying
on the calf? Did he claim he shot the wolf or
did he just? No, he said he did not shoot it.
He did not know who shot it. So why was there
a veterinarian out there and the Department of
Agriculture from the state looking at this whole
issue of the calf and the wolf? Well, it was
the Idaho Farm Bureau. I can tell you what it
was ultimately. Ultimately, the Endangered Species
Act was up for reauthorization. And there had
been a whole bunch of things that had happened
in Idaho. And the Idaho Farm Bureau was not happy
with the Endangered Species Act at all, particularly
a guy named Mike Tracy, who put absurd things
in the paper about it. But mostly, they were
trying to derail the reauthorization of the endangered
species act. And this became, I would call it
their, their poster child. Okay. Because they
wanted a trusted veterinarian to come out and
do the necropsy of the calf because they said
they did not trust the federal government to
do it. So that's why. And what did they, do you
recall what that necropsy showed? Yeah, well,
his vet cokes necropsy, he believed that the
wolf probably did kill the calf. Okay. And then
we had a young ADC guy come out, you know, animal
damage control for wildlife services. For USDA,
yeah. You know, there, I don't know how much
experience he had exactly, but he thought. that
the wolf probably killed the calf when he skinned
it out. But ultimately what happened is I took
the calf and the wolf, took the calf with Hussey's
permission really, and I sent them both to the
National Forensics Lab in Ashland, Oregon, and
they examined it, and their conclusion was that
the wolf did not. kill a calf because there was
hardly any blood. Like when I went out there,
I looked at the wolf, the wolf's not completely
frozen really or anything. And you could see
where it had been shot through the left and come
out the right shoulder. And the blood had come
out from the wolf and melted down through the
snow. Just like if you deer or elk hunt, I mean,
you see that kind of stuff all the time. Right.
Well. The calf, when I looked at it, the calf
had not bled hardly at all, which means its heart
wasn't beating when it was getting chewed on.
And the other important thing was the top part
of the calf, the side that was to the up, it
had all been cleaned off by the cow, which means
they cleaned the fetal membrane. off of it, you
know, and they lick it and it creates a bond
between the cow and the calf, just like with
other animals. Right. And in fact, elk will even
eat the membrane to cut down on the smell for
predators. Right. But anyhow, the bottom side,
it was still on there. Ah. So that's telling
me that if it was born alive, it might have taken
a couple of breaths and then died and then this
wolf came along. and shoot on it. And that's
what the lab believed also. OK, so the Fish and
Wildlife Service Forensics Lab concluded that
the calf was dead when the wolf was eating it?
Exactly. OK, or it had died before the wolf started
eating it. It had died before the wolf started
depredating on it. OK, which would make a big
difference, right? Because if the wolf is actively
preying on a domestic cattle species, then there
would be justification to shoot it. If it's eating
a dead calf, it's not taking a live domestic
cattle, right? Right. And the other thing that
seemed odd, you know, in Phillipsburg and Broadus
and Harleton, where I worked all those places,
people don't generally drag a dead cow down to
where they're going to calve because it attracts
predators. And just maybe 100 or 150 yards, I
forget how far, not very far. There was the remains
of a dead cow right there. So I don't know. So
that struck you as suspicious that the calf was
in that area? Sure. OK. So this is kind of interesting.
Where you are now is you've got this report of
a shot wolf confirmed that it's shot. Obviously,
the lab stuff took place later, so you didn't
quite know the status of the calf. But you have
a landowner who's basically reporting this, but
claiming they didn't shoot the wolf. So what
do you do next? And how does Paul Whelan come
into play here? How does he get associated with
what you're doing? Or Paul, how do you get into
this case? Well, Steve sent all that to the lab.
And the lab did the research. And Steve, if I
recall, Steve sent him a diagram. of what the
train looked like. And they said from the angle,
from where the road was and where the wolf was,
they said that angle, that bullet, that bullet's
going to be in that hillside right behind where
that dead wolf was. So that was enough to get
a search warrant. And I don't remember who did
the affidavit. Steve, did you do the affidavit
for the search warrant or did Tom and I? No,
I think I did. And then I sent it over to you.
Yeah. And you may have amended it or added something.
Yeah. Tom Riley was our boss then, and I think
Steve did the affidavit, and Tom and I added
to it, and then I took it down and got a search
warrant signed by the, had it approved by the
U .S. attorney, and then got a search warrant
signed by the judge, and I swore to the affidavit.
I see. So we were directed then by the court.
to go search that property for evidence of a
bullet. So we could then, hopefully, sometime
recover a rifle, do ballistics, and match it.
Even though, I'll say this, we did not need a
warrant. Right, I was just going to say open
fields. Yeah, open fields. Yeah, we didn't need
a warrant. But the US attorney, because of all
the anti -government sentiment at the time, they
said, we're going to get a warrant just to calm
people's fears. and to make it all look more
in order. Got it. OK, so I take it your warrant
was pretty narrow. It was probably just for the
area of the property where you expected to find
a bullet, right? Right. Yeah, the area was just
for the property, not for the house. We had no
evidence that anything was in the house, just
because we had no idea what type of rifle it
was. It was just to find the bullet. OK. This
is three miles up the creek from his house. Yeah.
Yeah, far away from the house, right? Yeah. OK.
Yes. You know, this is interesting, Paul, because
you mentioned that a lot of times federal agents
are referred to as jackbooted thugs by these
people who are anti -government. And yet here,
the jackbooted thugs have authority under very
well -settled US law about open fields to just
go do it. You could have just walked onto this
guy's field and started looking for a bullet
with your metal detector and shovels. But you
went to the trouble. to make sure that the case,
your reason for going on his property was reviewed
by an assistant US attorney and then by a judge
and signed off. You know, that's not the behavior
of a jackbooted thug. No, we went above and beyond
for that just because we knew what would happen
if we went there without a warrant. Yeah. Well,
we didn't know what would happen. is what would
happen if you went there even with a warrant?
What happened next? So OK, so we're really moving
pretty quickly here, but we don't really have
a suspect. We're just going to go out and we're
going to look for more evidence. You've gone
to the trouble of getting this warrant. Explain
to people, now you've got a warrant in hand to
search this limited space, open space on a property.
What do you guys do next? How many agents do
you take with you? What does that process look
like? Well, it was myself and Tom Riley. We met
Steve and I don't remember where we met Steve.
We probably We met somewhere. Maybe if we met
in salmon. Anyway, we all met there was three
of us. Okay, they go execute the warrant Yeah,
it's a simple warrant, right? It's not like you're
going into a house. You're just going in a house
looking for the documents It's it was gonna take
maybe a half an hour, right? Okay. So Steve tell
us what You go out there, you got some metal
detectors with you, I assume. And what happens?
Is there a fence you got across? How does this
work? Yeah, there was a fence and a gate. And
Paul and Tom are down by the creek. And I think
I went up onto the road to talk to another guy
who turns out to be Gene Husky's brother -in
-law, who is a real reasonable guy. You know,
I was talking to him and we hear all of this
cussing and hollering. And Mr. Hussey comes up
and he starts winging some rocks at us, at me
in particular, it seemed like. But, you know,
it didn't seem that bad, really. I mean, one
time when I was in Anaconda, I was serving a
search warrant with another warden in this...
lady started throwing frozen elk packages at
us. That's what it reminded me of. So wait a
second. You guys go on to this property and there's
somebody, there's a random person just on the
road leading up to the house or what? He had
been coming, he was gonna, I think he was coming
down the road. He lived on up the creek ways
and he was coming down to the road I think to
go to the dump or something. Okay, so he saw
you guys and you just went up to kind of explain
who you were. Well, Hussey had blocked the road
with his rig and he was coming up. And I guess
I was in the field at that time because he was
throwing the rocks at us and hollering. And I
tried to give him a copy of the search warrant,
but I really hadn't been cussed at that much
since I was in Marine Corps boot camp. So where
did Hussie come from? Was he up at the house
and he saw you guys, or how did he know up here?
Well, when we went to serve the search warrant,
Tom, Steve and I went and knocked on his house.
Oh, you went up there to tell him you were there.
We wanted to give him a copy of the search warrant.
Well, he wasn't home, so we went to the neighbor's
house and we said, hey, we have a copy. We have
a search warrant for that property up there.
So we looked for a bullet and wanted to give
it to Hussie. She said, well, he's in town and
and my boss term I said, well, we're just gonna
attack it on the door We so we just left the
copy of the war on his door To give him notice
that we had a warrant and we said we're gonna
go up there She said well, he's not gonna be
happy and I said, well, we're ordered by the
court to serve this war So we drive up there
Steve and I got out of the truck and we walked
down to the creek And then it was shortly after
that, not very long, we didn't even turn on our
metal detectors. And there was a row of trees
up above the creek. And we see Hussey cussing
and he's walking through the trees. My first
concern is, is he armed? Is he armed? Yeah, 100%.
And he was telling us, I mean, I'm not going
to say the language he was using, but, you know,
get off this land and it's private. And we noticed
he didn't have a gun. And And I was telling him,
hey, we have a federal search warrant. We're
directed to be here by a court. And he said,
your federal search warrant is no good in this
county. It's not valid anywhere in this county.
And you've got to get off the land. And by then,
he came down the creek. And he was on the opposite
side of the creek as Steve and I. And that's
when he started picking up rocks and hurling
them at us. If I recall correctly, Steve McGone
was recording this whole conversation when he
got down close. I told Steve, I said, let's just
hop across there and arrest him. Steve was a
little worried because we might have heard him
and he was not young. He didn't want to do that.
He was 75, I think. He was 75. But he was throwing
rocks at us. I'm like, yeah, let's hop across
there and just throw him to the ground and arrest
him, because I was done with it. And Steve said,
yeah, let me see if I can talk him. And of course,
he was still hollering at us. Our search warrant
was not valid in that county. And I said, yeah,
it is. And if you don't like it, move your buck
to Russia. So that's why he told them during
that conversation. Anyway, Steve calmed them
down. actually got him. Steve said, well, why
don't we go talk? He said, I called the sheriff
and he's on his way. And Steve calmed down and
finally said, Hey, let's go have a cup of coffee
and wait up at the truck. So that's where we
went from there. We, the three of us went back
up the truck, hopped across the fence and waited
for the sheriff. Steve, what was your reaction
when this guy comes down here cursing at you?
telling you you don't have any authority to be
there when you've obviously presented him with
a federal search warrant, and he's throwing rocks
at you. Why was your reaction to that so different
than Paul's? Well, I had met him before. OK.
You knew Hussey. Yeah. Yeah, I had met him because
I was up there. And when I collected the calf
and collected the wolf, and we talked to him,
and the sheriff was there. And I was a little.
surprise. I'll tell you what it reminded me of,
is it reminds me of someone that has PTSD, Post
Traumatic Stress Disorder. That's what it reminded
me of. And I know he had been in World War II,
and I don't know how long that disorder lasts,
but if it's not treated, it can last forever,
I think. That's what it reminded me of. I mean,
he could, I think if you were a federal agent,
He could be real nice. You know, your interaction
with each other and kind of how you worked through
this situation, you guys were really good partners
together. Because I used to work with Aaron Dean
a lot, who was an agent in the Los Angeles field
office. And Paul, I think I was more like you.
I didn't really take a lot of shit from people.
I'd put up with a little bit. But you start throwing
rocks at me, or you start putting your hands
on me, you're going to jail. I'm going to arrest
you. And I always liked working with Aaron because
between the two of us, one of us would kind of
balance the other person out and deescalate,
help deescalate if it was necessary, or just
kind of reaffirm with each other, what are we
going to do here? What's the best course of action?
And you guys seemed like, You worked really well
together in that way, right? I mean, you could
have just jumped over the creek at that moment,
put handcuffs on him, and if he resisted, you
could have used force to arrest him because he
was assaulting a federal officer at that point.
100%. But Ed, you have to remember, now I'm almost
as old as he was. But at the time, I knew he
was 75 or 76. Yeah. And if you do that to an
old person, You're damned if you do and damned
if you don't. Well, yeah. Given where you were
working too, right? Yeah. And actually I had
called the fish and game on the radio because
there was, I think I had an old cell, a bag phone
or something, but there was no cell service there
anyway. And then he called the sheriff's office
because we wanted him to come out. Ah, okay.
So both you and Hussey wanted the sheriff to
come out. We all did. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. But as
it turns out, he didn't recognize our warrant
either. And regardless of what he says and what
he said at two different congressional inquiries
or meetings, his actions speak. Yeah. Well, we're
getting ahead of ourselves here. I want to go
back to you, Steve, turned on an audio recorder
at some point. When did you do that and why did
you decide to turn on an audio recorder? I think
I turned it on when I heard him and he started
cussing and I just knew things could not be good.
That was smart. That turned out to be very smart.
Well, I wanted to document it because I knew,
I had the feeling there was more than just the
dead calf and a dead wolf at this point. And
I knew it was going to go somewhere. OK. So at
this point, you haven't even started looking
for a bullet. You have this confrontation with
Hussey. You turn on your recorder. You're getting
the whole exchange. Everything from Hussey yelling
at you, cursing at you. You can even hear rocks
hitting the ground and in the creek in the recording.
And then your conversation is on there, what
you say to him, what he says to you. And so.
He tells you you called the sheriff. You want
the sheriff to come out anyway. You've radioed
the state game wardens that that's what you want.
And then you go back up to the road with Hussey,
right? Or up to the car or something like that.
Yeah. And actually, you know, I was up by the
road when the sheriff showed up. Yeah. So what
happened when the sheriff shows up? Well, he
asked to see a copy of the warrant, which I showed
him. And then he asked for the probable cause
statement, which we call the affidavit same thing.
And we told him that was on file at the clerk's
office. And he just looked and I started to go
back onto the property and he stood in my way.
The sheriff did? Yeah. Yeah, he tried to block
me from going on to the property and he said,
if a gene wants you to, to leave, then I think
you ought to leave. Wow. Okay. He took gene kind
of by the arm and, uh, they left. Huh? Paul,
what was, uh, you and Tom Riley, agent Tom Riley
are also there. What was your reaction to all
this? The sheriff's pro, you know, response.
Well, Tom Riley is a big man. He's a very big
He plays defensive football. He was a defensive
lineman For the Colts before he was an agent
right and the sheriff was a little guy and When
he told us that if Eugene Hussey doesn't want
us on his land, we're not coming We're not getting
on it and Steve McGones hops across the fence
back online. I love that. He puts his hand on,
he tries to block Steve. And I remember Tom Reilly
gently, he was a gentle man. Even though he was
big, he was gentle. I remember Tom Reilly putting
his hand that's twice the size as my hand on
that man's neck and said, don't even think about
it or you're going to jail. He said this, wow,
to the sheriff. To the sheriff. Wow. And I was
kind of like, I could see the sheriff's gun.
I could see his hand close to the gun. And I'm
kind of behind the fence post thinking, is this
going to be a shootout? With a sheriff. That's
crazy. With a sheriff. And so I'm kind of behind
the fence post there on the property side. And
when Tom put his hand on there, the sheriff backed
down. And he said, we'll go to plan B. Yeah.
The sheriff said, we'll go to plan B, very cryptic.
So he said, come on, Hussey, get in. So Hussey
hopped in the sheriff's truck and they took off.
Holy shit. One of Hussey's, who was that, that
other guy that was there? His brother -in -law.
His brother -in -law was coming down because
he was going to empty his garbage and he had
stopped there. And when he saw how tense things
were getting, he hid behind his truck. And when
the sheriff and Hussey left, he came out. And
I remember saying, what is plan B mean? Yeah.
And he said, they're going to be back here within
a half an hour with a truckload or two of armed
men. Holy shit. Guys off this property. Oh my
God. That's scary. He turned around and went
back up to his house and Tom and I and Steve
talked for a minute. And so we got our metal
detectors and we all went down to the creek.
and we got down to the creek, and Steve, you
can correct me if I'm wrong, but this is how
I remember this, and I remember this pretty vividly.
Tom, we started, we were just going to turn our
metal detectors, and Tom said, hey Steve, where
does this road go, and where does it go to? And
Steve said, well it dead ends up there, what
mile or so up the road, it's a dead end road.
Yeah, it was more than that, but it was the waves,
plus it was winter. It was waste. Plus, it was
winter anyway. So, Tom Riley goes, let me get
this right. We're in a box canyon with nowhere
out, and we could be facing two truckloads of
our men. And I said, well, that's what they said
Plan B was going to be. I mean, I believed it
because I dealt with this in Gem County and the
anti -fed sentiment among even some law enforcement,
not state patrol, but some rural counties had
a lot of anti -government sentiment. And he said,
you know, boys, he said, it's not worth risk
in our lives or having to shoot someone to get
this bullet. So we packed up and left. Holy cow.
Yeah. And so we packed up our stuff, went up,
left, and Steve, I guess we were in two different
vehicles because Tom and I came from Boise. Yeah.
And when Tom and I left, I remember looking in
the mirror and I saw a pickup truck with Ben
in it. It was kind of far, but they were in the
back of a truck and they turned up that road.
So that's what we did. Holy cow, that'll wake
you up at night. I'll tell you what. major mistake
on that in that I believed what would happen
is when the sheriff got there, he would say,
well, Mr. Hussey, this is a valid federal search
warrant. They have a right to be here. I'll stay
here with you. They can go down and search for
half hour, an hour or whatever. And chances are
we wouldn't find the bullet anyway. It could
have went in the crack. Who knows? Right. Could
have disintegrated too after it came out and
hit a rock. I mean, I don't know. Sure. Anyway,
I figured he would say that and I had turned
my tape recorder off, uh, by this point. And
that was a big mistake. I should have left it
on and recorded him. And, and actually we should
have had another person videotaping the whole,
the whole deal, um, which I learned on future
search warrants. We did. Yeah, it kind of shocks
the conscience when you encounter another law
enforcement officer who is clearly disregarding
the law, basically assisting someone in obstructing
law enforcement, obstructing. Basically, what
that sheriff did was obstructed a federal investigation.
Oh, absolutely. 100%. I mean, you expect that
from the public, right? But you don't expect
it from someone who's supposed to be on our side
who's sworn to uphold the law and the Constitution.
Exactly. And it's a crime to obstruct an investigation.
It is. And that brings us to the next part of
this. Yes. So what happens next? You guys sounds
like pretty narrowly got out of there just in
time before a bunch of armed thugs showed up
who were going to make trouble. What do you guys
do next after that? You've got this warrant.
You weren't able to execute. You got a sheriff
who obstructed justice. What do you could do
next? Well, I can kind of take some of that.
And from here, Tom and I go back to Boise. We
go right to the office. It's fairly late by then.
And we called Dave McMullen. He was the agent
in charge of the whole region. And we briefed
him. And then we called the, he suggested we
call Interior Secretary Molly Beatty, and we
briefed her on what would happen, because we
knew this was gonna be, go sideways on us from
a political standpoint. And we called the U .S.
Attorney's Office, and I wrote up an affidavit
as to why we didn't execute the warrant, because
when you have a warrant, As you know, maybe some
of the listeners don't understand this but it's
not our It's not our option to execute that warrant
serve the warrant right ordered by a court to
do it So we have to do it. So we wrote up an
affidavit I did as to why we did not execute
the warrant and the next day I I Returned the
warrant to the magistrate judge who issued the
warrant Yeah, and that's an important note, Paul.
That's a great note that you just made. It's
a directive for agents to go serve the warrant
and to do the things that are in the warrant.
And so when you're done serving a warrant, the
agent has to go back to the judge who issued
the warrant and turn in what's called a return,
which basically explains what evidence you seized
and what day the warrant was served. Yeah, so
they expect to know what you did with their order.
Exactly. Exactly. OK, so go ahead. I'm sorry.
No, no worries. So I returned the warrant to
the magistrate judge who had issued it, and I
returned it un -executed with the affidavit,
and he read the affidavit, and he said, so you
were obstructed by the sheriff, and that's why
you did not execute this warrant. I said, yes,
sir. I said, he told us that we weren't welcome
on that land if the landowner didn't want us,
and he told us we had to leave. When I told them
F. David about the Plan B, he said, OK, I understand.
I said, well, are you going to reissue the warrant?
He said, well, a lot of that depends. Is the
US attorney's office going to charge the sheriff
with obstruction? And so I said, I don't know.
At this point, they have all the information.
They have all the evidence. And it was a clear
case of obstructing a federal agent in the course
of our duties. And what did the US attorney do
or say about that? Well, we had a criminal chief
and U .S. attorney and the U .S. attorney decided
not to charge the sheriff. Okay. And a lot of
the reason was, I mean, this was a highly charged
time like we discussed earlier about federal
agents not being liked or wanted anti -federal
sentiment. And of course, the U .S. attorney
was wanting to be a Senator at that time. And
so, and, and there was, so there was a lot of,
um, there was a lot of political stuff involved
in not charging the sheriff like, and he should
have been charged. We should have been back there
with another warrant. And the, the, the magistrate
judge was also up for district court judge, which
he never got, but he was up for that. So a lot
of people were afraid to do stuff because they
were trying to save their political. careers.
And we all know the US attorney at every district,
that's a political appointee job. Absolutely.
Yep. So nothing ever got done. Wow. No one was
ever charged. We never went back there with a
search warrant. And the sheriff never got charged.
So this is very kind of important. And what's
funny is this is a wolf case. And the whole wolf
issue is kind of getting lost in the mix here.
This very important early wolf poaching case
basically gets lost in the shitstorm that is
anti -government sentiment in the West there
at that time. People tend to forget. I mean,
yeah, it's the Endangered Species Act, but killing
a wolf is a misdemeanor. It's a federal misdemeanor.
It's not right, but it's not the crime of the
century. But it's something that we investigate.
100%. Yeah, and it was important for wolf recovery
at the time that people be held accountable for
wolf poaching because the numbers weren't very
high at that time, right? So this case gets even
crazier. Your investigation's kind of stalled
because you can't get the warrant reissued, the
sheriff's not going to get charged. You would
think, OK, Hussie and the sheriff got away with
it, whatever they did. That wasn't the end of
it for these guys, was it? What did they do next?
No, I'll let Steve kind of deal with that, talk
about that part a little bit, about what happened
with the senators and Molly Beatty. Steve, you
want to talk about that a little bit? Yeah. Yeah,
well, the headlines the next day in the paper
were, armed agents serve for it. The lies, the
lies begin. Yeah. And I was, I mean, of course
I wore my sidearm when I went up to investigate
it and to pick up the wolf and to the sheriff's
office. And I mean, I wore it all the time. Of
course, every day. I mean, that's what we do.
Yep. Federal agent. But now it's armed agents
serve for it. And from there, it just only got.
Worse I guess because for whatever reason the
sheriff kept putting things in the paper about
rude agents aren't going to be tolerated in my
county and they were really close to using too
much force and yet it just went on and on and
on and then Helen Chenoweth who was a representative
She called a hearing in Boise which Salmon wasn't
even in her district. I don't think and it was
a one -sided thing that All he did was beat up
federal agents and why agents are armed and federal
land managers and all that stuff well, then The
one that was made the most sense and trying to
Well, the greatest effort at making the most
sense out of this was Mike Crapo had a hearing
in Washington, and both Hussey and Barceló testified
there as well. But Crapo's hearing was pretty
good. I mean, it wasn't nearly like Genevieve's,
but the big point they're trying to make is that
there wasn't any cooperation when, in fact, we
had tried to cooperate. He wouldn't even return
my calls most of the time. Yeah, you mentioned
Barcelo. That was the sheriff, right? Yes. Yeah.
And there's a couple of points here, Steve, that
I know from talking to you before. Didn't Hussie
lie that you guys had ransacked his house? No,
that wasn't him. Oh, that wasn't him. Somebody
said that though, didn't they? I don't know.
That was the Idaho Farm Bureau said that we searched
his house without a warrant. Completely not.
Yeah. Somebody got that information wrong, though.
That was in the paper that we had gone in and
ransacked his house and tore it apart. And all
we did was put a copy of the warrant. And then,
of course, Hussey and the sheriff got on the
phone with the senators, Chenoweth and another
senator. Larry Crane. Larry Craig was the other
Senator and they got on the phone with them and
said the same thing. And then of course, who
do they go to? Molly Beatty, who's our director.
And then she comes and Tom and I have briefed
her on exactly what we did. Yeah. So Molly Beatty
was the director of the fish and wildlife service
at the time. Yeah. And we had briefed her that
night. We did the search warrant. When we got
back to Boise, we briefed her by Tom talked to
her and I was in his office. And we told her
exactly what happened. She comes out the next
day or the day after, after she gets complaints
from the senators and believes them and says,
fish wife agents, that we made some mistakes
in serving that woman. Unbelievable. It went
further than that too. Didn't she issue basically
a directive that all agents in the service would
from that point forward, not conduct Endangered
Species Act, take investigations without approval
from the director's office. Didn't she do that?
Yeah, I believe I recall that. Yes, she did.
Yeah, she has to be notified. So she did clarify
that she's in her statement, which was pretty
long. And she testified at the congressional
hearing in Washington that if any mistakes were
made, It wasn't by the agents, it was by the
heads of the divisions. I'm not keeping her informed.
Okay. Wow. Okay. Even though you called that
night to tell her exactly what happened. Unbelievable.
She wasn't prepared for the political heat. No,
no. Yeah, I think unfortunately, we worked in
an agency that is a law enforcement agency, but
a big portion of it is not. And Molly Beatty
was not a law enforcement officer by experience
or training. And they sometimes are unprepared
for the fact that they lead a law enforcement
agency. Yeah. Yeah, you hit that right on the
nail. I mean, we had great support from inside
law enforcement, from the chief down. But man,
from the top. And like I said, law enforcement
was a tiny part of Fish and Wildlife. Right.
Tiny. What, we have 180 agents at that time?
Yeah, something like that. Right, right, right.
In the whole country. Yeah. And I think that
has repeated itself in other incidents that have
occurred, where Fish and Wildlife service law
enforcement gets involved in something that's
pretty newsworthy. And the non -law enforcement
people who lead the service kind of forget, oh,
shoot, this is a law enforcement agency. And
they kind of drop the ball, and they fail to
lead. Anyway, so at this congressional hearing,
there were a lot of lies told about you guys
and what happened. But what saved you at that
congressional hearing? Not saved you, but what
basically showed all of those people to be liars,
Steve? At the congressional hearing, I can tell
you, let me look at my notes for a second. The
hearings were like March 17th and then in Boise
and the one in Washington was March 30th. But
that tape wasn't transcribed and notarized, it
was notarized on March 29th. So they weren't
able to play that tape or the transcript. at
the hearing. Okay. Well, what would have been
nice is if they would have had a copy of the
tape and played it at the hearing. 100%. Yeah,
right. I mean, and they would have, they would
have had a rude awakening on who was the aggressor,
and who was rude, what the sheriff did and all
that kind of stuff. Well, I'll tell you what,
Steve and Paul, I think one of the things that
really vindicated you guys and says everything
about what the truth was, was Yeah, like you
said, Steve, unfortunately, it couldn't have
been played at the hearing. But a periodical
called High Country News later did an article
about this incident. And the headline of the
article is basically, did Idaho libel the feds?
And I think that says everything, right? Because
as you read the article, you realize that this
local sheriff and Hussie really went on a misinformation
campaign to intentionally try to lie to discredit
you guys, you. both of you individually and,
and agent Riley, of course. So really that is,
uh, it must've been nice to read that and to
know that, okay, the truth's out here now, right?
Yeah, but you know, their intent, I just keep
going back to their intent. And, you know, the
sheriff says, uh, that we didn't cooperate with
him. I would have loved to have cooperated, but
you know, I have a copy. You probably can't see
it. I'll show you. Let me see if you can see
it. See that picture of the guy in uniform there?
Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's Sheriff Marcello posing
for a photo op with a dead wolf and calf before
I ever got there. Oh, so he'd already been out
there many, yeah, unbelievable. Yeah, and the
writer up there for the paper, Candice Burns,
she's the one that wrote that. that article about
three armed agents, and the sheriff was making
the big deal about armed agents. Of course, she
didn't mention that the sheriff was armed, which
he should be. We should all be. Yeah, that whole
discussion about why are Fish and Wildlife Service
agents armed is just absurd to me. I mean, we're
1811 federal agents. We're armed, and there's
no question about it. He didn't stop there. The
sheriff went on to testify. at the congressional
hearing that he didn't understand why, uh, game
wardens should be armed either. And one of the
people in Idaho, they're called conservation
officers on Canada. They're called game wardens.
But at one of the hearings, someone asked, well,
have you heard of Claude Dallas? I was just going
to say, Claude was testifying. He never answered,
but to show you the feeling someone else. A couple
other people in the crowd gave negative support
to law enforcement after that comment. Unbelievable.
Yeah, but listeners don't know. I'm sure they
do. But if they don't, Claude Dallas is a notorious
poacher who murdered two Idaho State game wardens
for basically just checking his hunting camp.
Yeah. I think it was in 81 probably. Yeah, 81.
Dumped their bodies in a river. Yeah, it was
pretty awful. Paul, you felt particularly aggrieved
by the lies that had occurred and the reaction
of Molly Beatty. What did you do, you and Agent
Riley did after that? Well, I mean, we both consulted
attorneys. And I don't remember if Tom ever actually
hired one, but I consulted one and I had one
ready. And he actually wrote a letter to her.
and demanded that she recant her statement, which
she did at some point after that, I think. She
died not long after that, and I don't remember
of what, but it was sometime after that incident,
she did recant it. And, you know, looking back
on the whole thing, like that High Country article
you said, I mean, we were liable. We could have
sued a lot of people. in Idaho. But I chose not
to. My attorney said, you know, he thought we
had a really good case, but I chose not to. So.
Yeah. Why inflame it? Yeah. I mean, I just kind
of, it was really disheartening and discouraging,
but I decided I just wanted to put it behind
me and move on. Well, listen, I want to commend
both you guys for how you handled that case.
I mean, it's frustrating because this Wolf case
went basically uninvestigated and nobody was
held accountable because you were blocked at
every opportunity. But you really handled yourselves
professionally, like professional federal agents,
safely, respectfully. It's really a model for
how agents should act in the field. So kudos
to both of you guys for how you handled the case
and weathered the storm. It must have been tough.
Hey, before we wrap up, there was one thing,
Paul, you mentioned to me when we were talking
before this interview. When the wolves were set
to be reintroduced in Idaho and Yellowstone,
there were some threats that were made against
wolves. Did either of you, I think, Paul, you
did. If you did, can you explain it? Did either
of you have any involvement in protecting the
wolves as they were in those acclimation pens
prior to release in Yellowstone? Yeah. I mean,
we were requested by Fish and Wildlife, the biologists
who were going to Transport them into the wilderness
area that we come along and provide security
Because there were threats made to their lives
if we if fish and wildlife goes through with
this in reintroduction of the wolves so was Tom
Riley myself and Steve we all went in that was
the first release I believe wasn't it Steve in
January 1995 and we went in on snow machines
and and yeah to protect the biologists. We drove
up there with them. We were in three cars to
provide one car in front and two behind to provide
protection all the way up there and during the
release and back. Yeah. And, uh, yeah, Steve.
Well, there was a, I used to have it. I don't
have it anymore, but there was a little sign
posted up near salmon in a store that a guy took
it down and gave it to me that said, uh, kill
all the wolves and the people that put them there.
So yeah, you got the pro -wolf people on one
side and you have the anti -wolf people on one
side. There's just not very many people that
are neutral about it. They're real passionate.
Yeah, I don't know, Steve. I feel like there's
more people who are kind of, I think the extremes
are always the the minorities, but maybe I'm
wrong. I don't know. But one thing that strikes
me about that, Paul, is they wanted you for security,
and I bet they were damn glad you were armed.
Yeah, very glad. With long guns and handguns.
Exactly. Well, at one point, the sheriff had
said, if he deemed it necessary, he would stop
the wolves from coming into the county. And I
don't know. What he deemed necessary, but yeah,
I know the rhetoric is you got to take that stuff
seriously because you don't know what people
mean, right? Yeah, well That doesn't sound real
cooperative Sure doesn't sure doesn't Hey to
wrap up what I'm doing. I'm asking all my guests
at the end of their interviews What they think
of wolves being reintroduced into the Western
United States? So we'll start with you Steve
as an agent former agent and as an individual
What's your view on wolf reintroduction in the
West? Well, I think there should be a few, but
I don't think there should be too many because
of conflict with livestock. You know, if they're
killing livestock, a wolf or a bear for that
matter, you can't just pick it up and take it
somewhere and drop it off and think it's not
going to continue to kill easy prey. But generally
you support the wolf reintroduction. Oh Sure,
but it's also aggravating when I go out and go
elk hunting and the first thing you see is Help
there is a wolf tracks right there. I mean, we
have plenty of wolves around Libby too and you
know Salmon and Limhi County isn't the only place
with them. We just don't have that many cattle
here Yeah, what that means is the wolves are
gonna scare off the elk. You're trying to hunt
Absolutely, so they're smart You know, say you
go to a grocery store and there's some gang hanging
out there. Are you going to get out and go in
or go to another store? Well, I'm going to go
in because I'm not afraid of anybody. Yeah. I'll
go to another store. All right. Paul, what? Oh,
go ahead. Sorry, Steve. Well, there should be
a few, but just not too many. They have to be
managed. You know, they're an apex predator that
reproduce quickly. And they have to be managed.
And a few people say, well, they only kill a
few cattle. But if you're the person that owns
that cow or calf or sheep, that can really impact
your pocketbook. So on an individual thing, it
can be really expensive. Yeah. Yeah. I understand
that, Steve. I totally get it. I always come
back to Looking at statistics of losses of cattle
in the West, predators are such a small minority
of the losses. Most of it's due to disease. Yeah.
But yeah. The thing that gets me about the management
thing is I've never understood why you don't
treat wolf reintroduction as a successful opportunity
for trophy wolf hunting. It's another opportunity
that could be presented. That's what you do here
now. Well, yeah, I mean, I don't know. There's
some debate about that in terms of the numbers
they're allowing to be killed as to whether or
not it's proper management. But that's probably
a purpose for another episode or a whole other
show. Well, the thing is that not many people
can successfully go trap or shoot a wolf. It's
not easy. I'm out all the time in the winter.
And you'll see their tracks. and you have to
worry about them killing your hounds when you're
running a lion or a bobcat if you see wolf tracks
you don't turn loose but in reality most people
can't trap them and you never see them in the
daytime hardly ever i've only seen them two or
three times in 20 years yeah yeah they're elusive
there's no doubt i've same i've seen a few but
not every time i go that's for sure they're pretty
smart yeah paul what are your views on a wolf
reintroduction I'll go start with that by asking
Steve Steve. How many are you allowed to kill
in Montana wolves right now? I don't know probably
probably five or ten, but nobody does I think
it's ten but nobody does no can't find them and
I'll say this like Who how did they how did they
disappear in the first place, right? Poison That's
how they disappeared. Well, no one's gonna allow
that anymore and I honestly, I remember standing
up in a meeting with Fish and Wildlife and discuss
this. I'm like, look, you're going to spend,
and we did, the government spent, and this is
why the government people hated us. We spent
millions and millions and millions of dollars
studying them and putting them in. And guess
what we're doing now? We're spending millions
and millions of dollars in trying to control
them. Because they're out of control, honestly.
You can't hunt them. You can't trap them to control
them. The only way you can control the population
really is with poison. And no one's going to
want to do that. I'm sure there's people doing
it, right? But the government's not doing it.
So they're hard to control. And at the end of
the day, like Steve said, they're like a dog.
They breed and they have a lot of puppies. I
mean, I honestly didn't see the sense in doing
that many. I said, look, if you're going to put
in 10 and cut it off, and they didn't. They kept
putting them in and putting them in and putting
them in. No wonder people hated us. I agree with
you, Ed. I think you have extremists on both
sides and most people are in the middle. at the
end of the day on most things. And I think including
the wolf thing. And, and most people were kind
in the middle on this. I think, well, yeah, it'd
be nice to have a few and it may take longer
for them to have very many, but at the end of
day, they will have a lot of them. And now we
have a lot of them. Yeah. They're reclaiming
territory. Yeah. I mean, I just, I, I, I was
looking ahead like, 30 years and here we are
30 years later spending millions and they're
hard to control and you can't hunt them You can't
control them by hunting. I mean Steve's a mountain
man Steve was born a hundred years too late There's
no question in my mind He's only seen a couple
in 20 years, right? You know, so it's Yeah, I
mean, I just I didn't see a lot of sense in it.
Maybe I agree with Steve, maybe a handful of
them and then leave it at that and give them
time to to to populate. Great perspectives, guys.
I appreciate you giving us your opinion. Also,
I really appreciate you guys being willing to
come on the show and talk about this. I could
talk to you both of you all day. There's other
cases you guys have worked on together and separately
that I would love to have you talk about on the.
podcast. I hope both of you will consider coming
back someday. Thanks, Ed. Awesome. It's been
great to talk to you. This is such a fascinating
incident case. I loved how it played out. And
thank you both for the work you did for the Fish
and Wildlife Service. And thanks for being on
the show. Thanks for having us, Ed. Absolutely.
Anytime. All right, everybody. Thanks for joining
us today. We'll see you next time. Nature's Secret
Service is written and produced by me, Ed Newcomer,
and is co -produced by the DHTV team here at
California State University Dominguez Hills.
Follow us on social media and connect with us
online at naturessecretservice .com.