WEBVTT

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If you want to learn more about the topics of

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today's episode, visit the podcast website at

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naturessecretservice .com. Thanks for listening.

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OK, people, listen up. Here we go. This is Nature's

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Secret Service, the podcast that puts you in

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the room with the men and women of wildlife law

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enforcement. I'm your host, Ed Newcomer. And

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of course, you know I was a special agent with

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the US Fish and Wildlife Service for more than

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20 years. And today, we actually have two guests

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with us. coming in remotely from their homes

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around the country. And I'm super happy to have

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these two gentlemen here because I knew them

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while I was a special agent and I always loved

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being around them. Paul Whalen and Steve McGone

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are our guests today. Both are retired special

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agents from the U .S. Fish and Wildlife Service.

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I'll introduce Paul, give you a little background

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on him first. Although he was a criminal justice

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major in college, I don't think he really thought

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he was going to end up a federal agent because

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for three years after he graduated from college,

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Paul actually played professional golf. He was

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a professional golfer, which is totally cool,

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but he eventually took a job as a background

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investigator for the civil service commission.

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And then three years after that, he was hired

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to be a special agent for the U S fish and wildlife

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service. Paul Wayland retired from the service

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in 2007 and he's now back to professionally golfing

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and he runs his own. prestigious golf coaching

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service called Paul Wayland Golf LLC. Steve McGone

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is our other guest. Steve started his career

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as a Montana State game warden and worked as

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a warden for 10 years before he was hired by

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the U .S. Fish and Wildlife Service to be a special

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agent. He retired in 2006 and he's an avid hunter

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and houndsman, which is a very unique thing to

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do. I was fascinated by hounds. Both Paul and

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Steve served their entire special agent careers

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in the Western United States. And like me, they

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both kind of got their start in Los Angeles,

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where also like me, they had the opportunity

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to work with and be trained by special agent

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Marie Palladini, who you probably remember from

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season one of this podcast. I wanted these two

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guys on because number one, they're super fun,

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and they're super fun together. In 1995, the

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very year that wolves were returned to the wild

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in Yellowstone National Park in Idaho, both Steve

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and Paul were stationed in Idaho, basically ground

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zero for wolf reintroduction, but also ground

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zero for a lot of anti -government sentiment

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and activity in the United States. Paul Whelan,

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thank you for being on the episode. Thank you

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for joining us. It's great to see you again.

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I'm so happy you're here. Thanks for having me,

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Ed. Really appreciate it. It's going to be a

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fun story to tell. It is. And Steve Magone, thanks

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so much for being here. I miss you guys. It's

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so great to see you again. Oh, thanks. Thanks

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for having me. Yeah. Just, you know, I wish we

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could have, uh, we had been recording when you

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and I, the three of us were kind of chatting

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as we were getting all the technical stuff figured

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out for today because Steve and Paul together,

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you guys worked together a lot in the field.

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Obviously you knew each other a long time, your

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whole careers. Uh, and you, you are so fun to

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watch banter. Steve, just before we started recording,

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you were about to tell me a story about working

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with Paul near the Salton sea in Southern California.

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I want you to go ahead and tell you that story

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before we jump into our, our Wolf case. Well,

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it was a long time ago, but as best as I can

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remember. We were down there to work salt and

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sea and check tuck hunters, goose hunters, and

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we had a room in this motel and we shared the

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room to save money, basically. I knew that he

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was some kind of a sleepwalker. I didn't know

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he was a scary sleepwalker. Like one time he

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walked outside and he was sound asleep. And one

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other time, I'm asleep in bed but I feel like

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something's watching me. And I wake up and Paul

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is standing there with a knife. Wait a minute.

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Yeah. It was a little knife. Yeah, it was just

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a little one. It was a little pocket knife. I

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could tell he was asleep though. So I hollered

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at him and he woke up pretty quick. I asked him

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what the heck he was doing but he didn't know.

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Wow. Yeah. Paul, I'm going to give you a chance

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to respond to that accusation. Yeah, I mean,

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there's nothing to respond to, really. That was

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the last time we ever shared a room together.

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I can tell you that. I mean, and I've been prone

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to sleepwalking my whole life. When I was a kid,

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I walked off a deck that was about close to 20

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feet high. Wow. Paul, I never knew this about

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you. Yeah, that's what happened to my brain.

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That's why I got hired by Fish and Wildlife.

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But luckily I fell into a really soft flower

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garden that was soft dirt like topsoil just put

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in. I walked into swimming pools and yeah, so.

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Wow. That was the first with a knife. And last

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time we ever shared a room together. Well, I

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feel a little guilty because I feel like we're

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revealing some type of, you know, confidential

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information. I've had it checked out by shrinks

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and neurologists. I'm fine. All right. Well,

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we'll talk later. If you want us to edit this

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part out, we can do that. It was good for me,

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Ed, because it made me a much lighter sleeper.

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Exactly. Keeps you on your toes, right? Yeah.

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Yeah, that's right. Yeah. I love hearing stories

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about agents who worked in the Los Angeles field

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office, because we all, you know, that's a very

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diverse duty station to work, but all of us,

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anybody who's worked there has the shared experience

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of working alongside state game wardens in the

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Salton Sea area on duck hunters and goose hunters.

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But we also have the shared experience of working

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dove hunters in the El Centro Valley there. And

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it's a unique experience to, you know, work those

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those, uh, hunting seasons alongside state game

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wardens when often, you know, it's a hundred

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degrees out and you're trying to force something.

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Yeah, but everybody's got stories from working

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those, those times. Um, anyway, we both worked

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there and, uh, in LA Steve left before I did,

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but we became really close and we've remained

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really close friends ever since. And We worked

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real close together and had a lot of good times.

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And like I said, we're still really good friends.

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I think that is amazing. I have really super

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close friends from my time as an agent too that

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I've had my whole career and continue to maintain.

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And they're some of my best friends of my entire

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life. So that's very cool. And it shows. When

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you guys are together and you're talking, it

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definitely shows. And I think from the context

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of the case we're going to talk about today,

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I think it was really valuable to be partnered

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up on this investigation with somebody who you

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knew very well, you trusted very much, and who

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was your friend, regardless of whether or not

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they show up in the middle of the night holding

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a knife asleep. And before we jump right into

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the case, I just want to give some context to

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where you were working at the time. this would

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have been around, this would, this incident occurred

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that we're going to talk about today in 1995,

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which was the year wolves were released or reintroduced.

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And looking at what was going on in the Pacific

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Northwest, Idaho, Washington, Montana, in 1995,

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look, I just want to give listeners and watchers

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a little bit of an understanding of timeline.

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Um, you know, In the 80s, mid -80s, late 80s,

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there were groups known as the Aryan nations

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in the order were operating in that area, very

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active, very anti -government. The Ruby Ridge

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standoff occurred in August of 1992 where an

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FBI agent shot and killed Randy Weaver's wife

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and infant son accidentally, but in that standoff.

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And then, of course, Waco, the Waco standoff,

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which was not in Idaho, in Texas, but in February

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of 1993. But a lot of the anti -government sentiment

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in Idaho and Eastern Washington at that time

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was heavily impacted by what happened at Waco

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in 93. So can you guys just each respectively

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just tell us a little bit, in 1995, What was

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it like to be a federal agent trying to work

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in Idaho? Did you sense a lot of that anti -government

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feeling or what was your experience? Let's start

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with Paul. I can start at that 100%. I mean,

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we were not respected. We were not wanted. We

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were not liked by a lot of people. In 1992, I

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had already been... charged and arrested in a

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county called Gem County just north of Boise

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where I was stationed for legally going out on

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private land to check goose hunters. Whoa, Paul,

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I never knew I never knew this as an agent as

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a badge carrying gun wearing agent doing your

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job, you were arrested by locals. Yeah, well,

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wasn't physically arrested, but I was charged

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by criminal complaint and served. Right. And

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it ended up being transferred to federal court

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because I was acting under the authority of my

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duties. It was ultimately dismissed by a magistrate

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judge under the open fields doctor. Yes, of course.

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We all know basically states we can go in open

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fields to conduct their business. Right. But

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that's how it was. I mean, we were not liked.

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We were not really wanted. And there was a lot

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of anti -government sentiment in that area. Jack

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booted thugs. Yeah, that's how we were referred

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to by anybody who didn't like us, that's for

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sure. Steve, what was your experience similar?

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You know, it wasn't as bad. I lived in Idaho

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Falls in southeastern Idaho instead of Boise.

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Actually, the favorite part of my whole district

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was probably Limhi County, the salmon area. But

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I didn't run into too much of that around Idaho

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Falls at all. But a lot of my case work was not

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in Idaho Falls. Some of it was coming out of

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Yellowstone Park with illegal elk. That was in

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88, the year of the... the big Yellowstone fire.

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Right. So I didn't have nearly as much of that

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in Southeast Idaho like Paul did. Okay. Well,

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that's good because that makes it tough to do

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your job when you're, you know, you're, you're

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watching for bad guys, but you're also, you don't

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know who in the public you can trust, you know,

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that's, that's tough. What happened, Ed, was

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when you're an agent in Idaho and you're sending

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out you know a lot of the wildlife is killed

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in Idaho and then taken to other states and then

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you send leads out and those agents will interview

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them and send the send the investigation back

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to you and everyone is really happy when you're

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catching non -residents killing uh bighorn sheep

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or elk illegally you know and taking them and

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then you end up catching them. But it's a little

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different when you catch some of the good old

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boys doing the same stuff. And then yeah, there

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was animosity there, that's for sure. Yeah, isn't

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that interesting? Yeah, catch everybody, catch

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all the outsiders, but don't bother the locals,

00:13:12.220 --> 00:13:16.419
right? Yeah. I will say this, Ed, we had like,

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we always had great support from Idaho fishing

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game officers. And it just seemed like when in

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my area, the further remote you got, the more

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kind of troubles you had with people and sometimes

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even law enforcement. Interesting. I think that

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last statement, even with law enforcement, is

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going to be very apropos as we go through this

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story today. One aside, too, that I think is

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really interesting, you guys both having worked

00:13:46.340 --> 00:13:49.940
in LA, I think you'll appreciate this. When I

00:13:49.940 --> 00:13:51.980
was in LA, I was always, you know, you don't

00:13:51.980 --> 00:13:54.340
think of the Los Angeles field office is doing

00:13:54.340 --> 00:13:56.679
a lot of big game work and we don't do a lot

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of obviously field investigations related to

00:13:59.320 --> 00:14:02.059
big game work. But we did respond to a lot of

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leads from agents from the Western US because

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you know, people from Los Angeles travel to the

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Western Rocky Mountain States to go big game

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hunting and they sometimes commit violations

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and take those trophies back to LA, which would

00:14:15.200 --> 00:14:17.799
be a LAC act violation. So I ended up, you know,

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in my career, I did a lot of big game investigations

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associated with leads from agents like you guys

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who had suspects back in LA, which was always

00:14:25.639 --> 00:14:28.759
kind of fun and interesting. Um, but you know,

00:14:28.759 --> 00:14:30.879
you don't think about that. The LA agents do

00:14:30.879 --> 00:14:33.940
do some big game work, but it's usually following

00:14:33.940 --> 00:14:36.600
up on leads for agents outside of California

00:14:36.600 --> 00:14:39.480
or Los Angeles. Anyway. Well, you know, when

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I, When I first got to Los Angeles, uh, Marie

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Palladini was a senior resident agent. Yep. And

00:14:46.570 --> 00:14:50.090
she could tell, I mean, I came from Phillipsburg,

00:14:50.269 --> 00:14:53.169
a town that had one street light, which they

00:14:53.169 --> 00:14:58.809
did away with to Los Angeles. And I, it took

00:14:58.809 --> 00:15:01.850
a while to adjust. I mean, it took me a while

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to figure out how to even get to the office and

00:15:04.110 --> 00:15:06.850
back to my house for a while. But one of the

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first cases she assigned me was. an elk that

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had been killed illegally in Idaho and then taken

00:15:15.620 --> 00:15:20.799
to Los Angeles area. So that made me feel at

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home. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, probably made

00:15:23.340 --> 00:15:26.980
you feel like, hey, I can definitely work here

00:15:26.980 --> 00:15:30.460
for sure, right? Yeah. I knew how to do that.

00:15:30.659 --> 00:15:33.080
Yeah. It's funny. I think one of the first things

00:15:33.080 --> 00:15:35.820
she assigned to me when I was her trainee was

00:15:36.500 --> 00:15:38.980
investigation involving a moose trophy that had

00:15:38.980 --> 00:15:41.759
been brought back to LA from somewhere in the

00:15:41.759 --> 00:15:45.480
Rockies. I can't remember where. I was much less

00:15:45.480 --> 00:15:47.679
able to, I was much less equipped to deal with

00:15:47.679 --> 00:15:52.320
that than you were. Okay. So the story that we're

00:15:52.320 --> 00:15:55.159
going to tell you today really begins January,

00:15:55.360 --> 00:15:59.200
1995, when wolves are reintroduced to the greater

00:15:59.200 --> 00:16:03.820
Yellowstone area, including central Idaho. The

00:16:03.820 --> 00:16:05.799
Idaho wolves were the first release. They were

00:16:05.799 --> 00:16:09.600
not in what they call kind of habituation pens.

00:16:10.039 --> 00:16:14.460
They were just released. And Steve, tell us a

00:16:14.460 --> 00:16:17.039
little bit about, give us an introduction to

00:16:17.039 --> 00:16:20.379
this case. Tell us about this wolf that we're

00:16:20.379 --> 00:16:23.000
going to talk about today when it was released

00:16:23.000 --> 00:16:25.960
and how it came to your attention as a law enforcement

00:16:25.960 --> 00:16:32.259
officer. Well, they were released mostly along

00:16:32.259 --> 00:16:35.330
the Meadow Fork. of the salmon in the Frank Church.

00:16:35.750 --> 00:16:38.009
Some of them were released at Corn Creek, which

00:16:38.009 --> 00:16:40.350
is at the end of the road going down the main

00:16:40.350 --> 00:16:43.190
salmon where below where it hits the middle fork.

00:16:43.929 --> 00:16:49.049
And that was on January 20th. And about eight

00:16:49.049 --> 00:16:55.309
days later, the Wolf B -13 was its ear tag, was

00:16:55.309 --> 00:16:59.669
shot on the Hussey Ranch near Elk Bend, Idaho,

00:16:59.870 --> 00:17:04.890
which is south of Salmon. Okay, so shortly after

00:17:04.890 --> 00:17:07.390
it was released, it ends up shot. How did it

00:17:07.390 --> 00:17:09.329
come to your attention that the wolf had been

00:17:09.329 --> 00:17:20.369
shot? Well, on the 30th of January, the Limhi

00:17:20.369 --> 00:17:24.470
County Sheriff's Office called me and told me

00:17:24.470 --> 00:17:30.190
about it. And at the time, I didn't understand

00:17:30.190 --> 00:17:35.299
why there was a delay. because a sheriff had

00:17:35.299 --> 00:17:39.539
been notified the day before, but he chose not

00:17:39.539 --> 00:17:43.940
to notify me until the 30th. And then it turns

00:17:43.940 --> 00:17:48.039
out other people had been notified on the 28th

00:17:48.039 --> 00:17:54.779
and had been there. So I don't know exactly why

00:17:54.779 --> 00:17:58.039
he waited so long, but they did. Okay. And so

00:17:58.039 --> 00:18:00.119
what did you do next once you get that report

00:18:00.119 --> 00:18:02.480
from the Sheriff's Office delayed report? What's

00:18:02.480 --> 00:18:04.759
your next step? Well, he called me at home and

00:18:04.759 --> 00:18:09.900
I went up there. And again, it seemed kind of

00:18:09.900 --> 00:18:12.059
odd. He had me meet him at the Sheriff's Office

00:18:12.059 --> 00:18:15.420
and he had already been down there. And then

00:18:15.420 --> 00:18:19.359
he and I traveled down to the Hussey Ranch where

00:18:19.359 --> 00:18:22.839
he introduced us. And then I began my investigation

00:18:22.839 --> 00:18:30.259
on the Wolf, calf carcass. Okay, so yeah, and

00:18:30.259 --> 00:18:32.259
introduced you to who? Who did he introduce you

00:18:32.259 --> 00:18:35.160
to? Gene Hussey. Gene Hussey, the owner of the

00:18:35.160 --> 00:18:38.539
ranch? Yes. Okay, so just to summarize, this

00:18:38.539 --> 00:18:40.700
dead wolf is, according to the sheriff's office,

00:18:40.779 --> 00:18:44.160
been shot, and it's on Hussey's ranch, private

00:18:44.160 --> 00:18:47.259
property. Right. And you mentioned a calf. There

00:18:47.259 --> 00:18:49.579
was something about this wolf, there was some

00:18:49.579 --> 00:18:51.980
controversy about a calf, you know, a cattle.

00:18:52.500 --> 00:18:58.180
Yeah, it was a... the major controversy and see

00:18:58.180 --> 00:19:04.660
before I ever got there the um Hussey had discovered

00:19:04.660 --> 00:19:08.480
this dead wolf as the story goes the dead wolf

00:19:08.480 --> 00:19:14.559
and the dead calf and he called uh among other

00:19:14.559 --> 00:19:19.519
things the local veterinarian to come out and

00:19:19.519 --> 00:19:24.460
do a necropsy on the calf and the wolf Okay.

00:19:25.099 --> 00:19:29.599
Yeah. Also the, uh, Idaho farm bureau had been

00:19:29.599 --> 00:19:34.799
out there filming some of the Idaho cattleman's

00:19:34.799 --> 00:19:40.359
association had showed up. Um, it had snowed,

00:19:40.420 --> 00:19:43.039
but there is footprints all over the place. I

00:19:43.039 --> 00:19:45.779
mean, you couldn't, you couldn't tell anything

00:19:45.779 --> 00:19:50.640
from the tracks, what had went on. Some people

00:19:50.640 --> 00:19:53.160
surmise that maybe snowmobilers had shot it.

00:19:54.339 --> 00:19:57.599
We don't know. You say tracks, you mean human

00:19:57.599 --> 00:20:01.079
tracks or animal tracks? Human tracks and vehicle

00:20:01.079 --> 00:20:05.019
tracks. Okay. So just another good thing to know

00:20:05.019 --> 00:20:08.440
for listeners and watchers is that so when wolves

00:20:08.440 --> 00:20:11.559
were reintroduced, the wolves inside Yellowstone

00:20:11.559 --> 00:20:13.680
National Park, obviously they're protected as

00:20:13.680 --> 00:20:15.019
long as they're inside the park because there's

00:20:15.019 --> 00:20:18.509
no hunting in the park. Wolves outside the park

00:20:18.509 --> 00:20:20.529
any wolf outside the park would have been protected

00:20:20.529 --> 00:20:23.049
by the Endangered Species Act, but because they

00:20:23.049 --> 00:20:26.250
were reintroduced species They were protected,

00:20:26.250 --> 00:20:31.430
but they could be Taken or shot if they if they

00:20:31.430 --> 00:20:33.410
engaged in certain behaviors and one of those

00:20:33.410 --> 00:20:36.589
might have been Praying on domestic cattle or

00:20:36.589 --> 00:20:39.170
livestock, right? But there would have been there

00:20:39.170 --> 00:20:41.950
would have been a process for that To to get

00:20:41.950 --> 00:20:44.589
permission to do that, correct? Well, no, I mean

00:20:44.589 --> 00:20:49.279
if Say Mr. Hussey had went out and if he had

00:20:49.279 --> 00:20:55.039
seen this wolf killing one of his calves or one

00:20:55.039 --> 00:20:57.700
of the mother cows or whatever, he could have

00:20:57.700 --> 00:21:00.180
shot it. Okay. He could take action just in the

00:21:00.180 --> 00:21:03.019
moment immediately. Absolutely. And I, you know,

00:21:03.119 --> 00:21:04.880
nobody would have a problem with that. They need

00:21:04.880 --> 00:21:09.259
to protect their property and ultimately wolves

00:21:09.259 --> 00:21:11.859
need to be managed somehow. Anyway, you just

00:21:11.859 --> 00:21:16.569
can't have that. So Was Hussie claiming though

00:21:16.569 --> 00:21:18.589
that he shot this wolf because it was preying

00:21:18.589 --> 00:21:22.250
on the calf? Did he claim he shot the wolf or

00:21:22.250 --> 00:21:25.369
did he just? No, he said he did not shoot it.

00:21:25.369 --> 00:21:30.690
He did not know who shot it. So why was there

00:21:30.690 --> 00:21:33.410
a veterinarian out there and the Department of

00:21:33.410 --> 00:21:35.970
Agriculture from the state looking at this whole

00:21:35.970 --> 00:21:38.630
issue of the calf and the wolf? Well, it was

00:21:38.630 --> 00:21:40.670
the Idaho Farm Bureau. I can tell you what it

00:21:40.670 --> 00:21:47.880
was ultimately. Ultimately, the Endangered Species

00:21:47.880 --> 00:21:51.900
Act was up for reauthorization. And there had

00:21:51.900 --> 00:21:53.839
been a whole bunch of things that had happened

00:21:53.839 --> 00:21:59.339
in Idaho. And the Idaho Farm Bureau was not happy

00:21:59.339 --> 00:22:03.680
with the Endangered Species Act at all, particularly

00:22:03.680 --> 00:22:08.220
a guy named Mike Tracy, who put absurd things

00:22:08.220 --> 00:22:13.319
in the paper about it. But mostly, they were

00:22:13.319 --> 00:22:16.220
trying to derail the reauthorization of the endangered

00:22:16.220 --> 00:22:19.900
species act. And this became, I would call it

00:22:19.900 --> 00:22:24.859
their, their poster child. Okay. Because they

00:22:24.859 --> 00:22:30.039
wanted a trusted veterinarian to come out and

00:22:30.039 --> 00:22:33.960
do the necropsy of the calf because they said

00:22:33.960 --> 00:22:35.839
they did not trust the federal government to

00:22:35.839 --> 00:22:40.099
do it. So that's why. And what did they, do you

00:22:40.099 --> 00:22:43.549
recall what that necropsy showed? Yeah, well,

00:22:43.769 --> 00:22:49.869
his vet cokes necropsy, he believed that the

00:22:49.869 --> 00:22:54.589
wolf probably did kill the calf. Okay. And then

00:22:54.589 --> 00:22:57.809
we had a young ADC guy come out, you know, animal

00:22:57.809 --> 00:23:01.710
damage control for wildlife services. For USDA,

00:23:01.890 --> 00:23:05.670
yeah. You know, there, I don't know how much

00:23:05.670 --> 00:23:10.960
experience he had exactly, but he thought. that

00:23:10.960 --> 00:23:15.380
the wolf probably killed the calf when he skinned

00:23:15.380 --> 00:23:19.940
it out. But ultimately what happened is I took

00:23:19.940 --> 00:23:26.220
the calf and the wolf, took the calf with Hussey's

00:23:26.220 --> 00:23:29.019
permission really, and I sent them both to the

00:23:29.019 --> 00:23:33.480
National Forensics Lab in Ashland, Oregon, and

00:23:33.480 --> 00:23:37.500
they examined it, and their conclusion was that

00:23:37.500 --> 00:23:42.940
the wolf did not. kill a calf because there was

00:23:42.940 --> 00:23:45.299
hardly any blood. Like when I went out there,

00:23:45.599 --> 00:23:48.359
I looked at the wolf, the wolf's not completely

00:23:48.359 --> 00:23:50.960
frozen really or anything. And you could see

00:23:50.960 --> 00:23:53.599
where it had been shot through the left and come

00:23:53.599 --> 00:23:57.380
out the right shoulder. And the blood had come

00:23:57.380 --> 00:24:01.640
out from the wolf and melted down through the

00:24:01.640 --> 00:24:04.599
snow. Just like if you deer or elk hunt, I mean,

00:24:04.619 --> 00:24:07.240
you see that kind of stuff all the time. Right.

00:24:07.579 --> 00:24:12.640
Well. The calf, when I looked at it, the calf

00:24:12.640 --> 00:24:18.059
had not bled hardly at all, which means its heart

00:24:18.059 --> 00:24:20.539
wasn't beating when it was getting chewed on.

00:24:21.619 --> 00:24:27.720
And the other important thing was the top part

00:24:27.720 --> 00:24:32.119
of the calf, the side that was to the up, it

00:24:32.119 --> 00:24:35.779
had all been cleaned off by the cow, which means

00:24:35.779 --> 00:24:38.299
they cleaned the fetal membrane. off of it, you

00:24:38.299 --> 00:24:40.480
know, and they lick it and it creates a bond

00:24:40.480 --> 00:24:42.880
between the cow and the calf, just like with

00:24:42.880 --> 00:24:47.460
other animals. Right. And in fact, elk will even

00:24:47.460 --> 00:24:51.839
eat the membrane to cut down on the smell for

00:24:51.839 --> 00:24:55.180
predators. Right. But anyhow, the bottom side,

00:24:55.619 --> 00:24:58.839
it was still on there. Ah. So that's telling

00:24:58.839 --> 00:25:03.359
me that if it was born alive, it might have taken

00:25:03.359 --> 00:25:06.039
a couple of breaths and then died and then this

00:25:06.039 --> 00:25:09.140
wolf came along. and shoot on it. And that's

00:25:09.140 --> 00:25:12.460
what the lab believed also. OK, so the Fish and

00:25:12.460 --> 00:25:14.980
Wildlife Service Forensics Lab concluded that

00:25:14.980 --> 00:25:18.000
the calf was dead when the wolf was eating it?

00:25:18.420 --> 00:25:20.980
Exactly. OK, or it had died before the wolf started

00:25:20.980 --> 00:25:23.460
eating it. It had died before the wolf started

00:25:23.460 --> 00:25:26.240
depredating on it. OK, which would make a big

00:25:26.240 --> 00:25:28.519
difference, right? Because if the wolf is actively

00:25:28.519 --> 00:25:33.740
preying on a domestic cattle species, then there

00:25:33.740 --> 00:25:36.640
would be justification to shoot it. If it's eating

00:25:36.640 --> 00:25:40.640
a dead calf, it's not taking a live domestic

00:25:40.640 --> 00:25:43.519
cattle, right? Right. And the other thing that

00:25:43.519 --> 00:25:47.859
seemed odd, you know, in Phillipsburg and Broadus

00:25:47.859 --> 00:25:50.380
and Harleton, where I worked all those places,

00:25:51.000 --> 00:25:56.079
people don't generally drag a dead cow down to

00:25:56.079 --> 00:25:59.119
where they're going to calve because it attracts

00:25:59.119 --> 00:26:03.299
predators. And just maybe 100 or 150 yards, I

00:26:03.299 --> 00:26:05.859
forget how far, not very far. There was the remains

00:26:05.859 --> 00:26:11.619
of a dead cow right there. So I don't know. So

00:26:11.619 --> 00:26:14.259
that struck you as suspicious that the calf was

00:26:14.259 --> 00:26:18.440
in that area? Sure. OK. So this is kind of interesting.

00:26:18.500 --> 00:26:20.720
Where you are now is you've got this report of

00:26:20.720 --> 00:26:23.460
a shot wolf confirmed that it's shot. Obviously,

00:26:23.579 --> 00:26:25.680
the lab stuff took place later, so you didn't

00:26:25.680 --> 00:26:28.049
quite know the status of the calf. But you have

00:26:28.049 --> 00:26:32.230
a landowner who's basically reporting this, but

00:26:32.230 --> 00:26:36.250
claiming they didn't shoot the wolf. So what

00:26:36.250 --> 00:26:38.410
do you do next? And how does Paul Whelan come

00:26:38.410 --> 00:26:40.470
into play here? How does he get associated with

00:26:40.470 --> 00:26:42.509
what you're doing? Or Paul, how do you get into

00:26:42.509 --> 00:26:48.609
this case? Well, Steve sent all that to the lab.

00:26:49.390 --> 00:26:53.910
And the lab did the research. And Steve, if I

00:26:53.910 --> 00:26:56.829
recall, Steve sent him a diagram. of what the

00:26:56.829 --> 00:26:59.710
train looked like. And they said from the angle,

00:26:59.769 --> 00:27:02.150
from where the road was and where the wolf was,

00:27:02.470 --> 00:27:05.130
they said that angle, that bullet, that bullet's

00:27:05.130 --> 00:27:08.789
going to be in that hillside right behind where

00:27:08.789 --> 00:27:14.509
that dead wolf was. So that was enough to get

00:27:14.509 --> 00:27:16.630
a search warrant. And I don't remember who did

00:27:16.630 --> 00:27:18.890
the affidavit. Steve, did you do the affidavit

00:27:18.890 --> 00:27:21.829
for the search warrant or did Tom and I? No,

00:27:21.829 --> 00:27:25.490
I think I did. And then I sent it over to you.

00:27:25.680 --> 00:27:28.500
Yeah. And you may have amended it or added something.

00:27:29.359 --> 00:27:32.619
Yeah. Tom Riley was our boss then, and I think

00:27:32.619 --> 00:27:36.319
Steve did the affidavit, and Tom and I added

00:27:36.319 --> 00:27:39.700
to it, and then I took it down and got a search

00:27:39.700 --> 00:27:42.859
warrant signed by the, had it approved by the

00:27:42.859 --> 00:27:45.640
U .S. attorney, and then got a search warrant

00:27:45.640 --> 00:27:48.819
signed by the judge, and I swore to the affidavit.

00:27:48.960 --> 00:27:52.359
I see. So we were directed then by the court.

00:27:52.640 --> 00:27:57.299
to go search that property for evidence of a

00:27:57.299 --> 00:28:00.259
bullet. So we could then, hopefully, sometime

00:28:00.259 --> 00:28:03.440
recover a rifle, do ballistics, and match it.

00:28:03.880 --> 00:28:06.579
Even though, I'll say this, we did not need a

00:28:06.579 --> 00:28:08.519
warrant. Right, I was just going to say open

00:28:08.519 --> 00:28:10.299
fields. Yeah, open fields. Yeah, we didn't need

00:28:10.299 --> 00:28:12.960
a warrant. But the US attorney, because of all

00:28:12.960 --> 00:28:15.920
the anti -government sentiment at the time, they

00:28:15.920 --> 00:28:19.599
said, we're going to get a warrant just to calm

00:28:19.599 --> 00:28:23.920
people's fears. and to make it all look more

00:28:23.920 --> 00:28:27.680
in order. Got it. OK, so I take it your warrant

00:28:27.680 --> 00:28:30.039
was pretty narrow. It was probably just for the

00:28:30.039 --> 00:28:32.259
area of the property where you expected to find

00:28:32.259 --> 00:28:34.839
a bullet, right? Right. Yeah, the area was just

00:28:34.839 --> 00:28:37.880
for the property, not for the house. We had no

00:28:37.880 --> 00:28:39.740
evidence that anything was in the house, just

00:28:39.740 --> 00:28:42.339
because we had no idea what type of rifle it

00:28:42.339 --> 00:28:46.059
was. It was just to find the bullet. OK. This

00:28:46.059 --> 00:28:49.619
is three miles up the creek from his house. Yeah.

00:28:49.799 --> 00:28:51.819
Yeah, far away from the house, right? Yeah. OK.

00:28:52.000 --> 00:28:54.259
Yes. You know, this is interesting, Paul, because

00:28:54.259 --> 00:28:56.900
you mentioned that a lot of times federal agents

00:28:56.900 --> 00:28:59.779
are referred to as jackbooted thugs by these

00:28:59.779 --> 00:29:02.079
people who are anti -government. And yet here,

00:29:02.200 --> 00:29:05.880
the jackbooted thugs have authority under very

00:29:05.880 --> 00:29:08.720
well -settled US law about open fields to just

00:29:08.720 --> 00:29:10.740
go do it. You could have just walked onto this

00:29:10.740 --> 00:29:12.740
guy's field and started looking for a bullet

00:29:12.740 --> 00:29:16.319
with your metal detector and shovels. But you

00:29:16.319 --> 00:29:19.710
went to the trouble. to make sure that the case,

00:29:20.230 --> 00:29:22.970
your reason for going on his property was reviewed

00:29:22.970 --> 00:29:26.109
by an assistant US attorney and then by a judge

00:29:26.109 --> 00:29:29.269
and signed off. You know, that's not the behavior

00:29:29.269 --> 00:29:33.750
of a jackbooted thug. No, we went above and beyond

00:29:33.750 --> 00:29:36.349
for that just because we knew what would happen

00:29:36.349 --> 00:29:38.490
if we went there without a warrant. Yeah. Well,

00:29:38.630 --> 00:29:42.039
we didn't know what would happen. is what would

00:29:42.039 --> 00:29:43.660
happen if you went there even with a warrant?

00:29:44.299 --> 00:29:48.400
What happened next? So OK, so we're really moving

00:29:48.400 --> 00:29:50.859
pretty quickly here, but we don't really have

00:29:50.859 --> 00:29:52.680
a suspect. We're just going to go out and we're

00:29:52.680 --> 00:29:55.019
going to look for more evidence. You've gone

00:29:55.019 --> 00:29:57.319
to the trouble of getting this warrant. Explain

00:29:57.319 --> 00:29:59.839
to people, now you've got a warrant in hand to

00:29:59.839 --> 00:30:03.240
search this limited space, open space on a property.

00:30:04.000 --> 00:30:06.420
What do you guys do next? How many agents do

00:30:06.420 --> 00:30:08.460
you take with you? What does that process look

00:30:08.460 --> 00:30:13.180
like? Well, it was myself and Tom Riley. We met

00:30:13.180 --> 00:30:16.559
Steve and I don't remember where we met Steve.

00:30:16.799 --> 00:30:20.240
We probably We met somewhere. Maybe if we met

00:30:20.240 --> 00:30:22.359
in salmon. Anyway, we all met there was three

00:30:22.359 --> 00:30:25.720
of us. Okay, they go execute the warrant Yeah,

00:30:25.720 --> 00:30:27.579
it's a simple warrant, right? It's not like you're

00:30:27.579 --> 00:30:29.400
going into a house. You're just going in a house

00:30:29.400 --> 00:30:32.920
looking for the documents It's it was gonna take

00:30:32.920 --> 00:30:36.700
maybe a half an hour, right? Okay. So Steve tell

00:30:36.700 --> 00:30:39.480
us what You go out there, you got some metal

00:30:39.480 --> 00:30:42.279
detectors with you, I assume. And what happens?

00:30:42.359 --> 00:30:43.980
Is there a fence you got across? How does this

00:30:43.980 --> 00:30:50.220
work? Yeah, there was a fence and a gate. And

00:30:50.220 --> 00:30:55.420
Paul and Tom are down by the creek. And I think

00:30:55.420 --> 00:30:59.019
I went up onto the road to talk to another guy

00:30:59.019 --> 00:31:03.019
who turns out to be Gene Husky's brother -in

00:31:03.019 --> 00:31:09.180
-law, who is a real reasonable guy. You know,

00:31:09.180 --> 00:31:13.279
I was talking to him and we hear all of this

00:31:13.279 --> 00:31:19.700
cussing and hollering. And Mr. Hussey comes up

00:31:19.700 --> 00:31:24.240
and he starts winging some rocks at us, at me

00:31:24.240 --> 00:31:28.200
in particular, it seemed like. But, you know,

00:31:28.299 --> 00:31:32.059
it didn't seem that bad, really. I mean, one

00:31:32.059 --> 00:31:33.960
time when I was in Anaconda, I was serving a

00:31:33.960 --> 00:31:36.380
search warrant with another warden in this...

00:31:35.920 --> 00:31:39.059
lady started throwing frozen elk packages at

00:31:39.059 --> 00:31:42.099
us. That's what it reminded me of. So wait a

00:31:42.099 --> 00:31:45.299
second. You guys go on to this property and there's

00:31:45.299 --> 00:31:47.680
somebody, there's a random person just on the

00:31:47.680 --> 00:31:50.740
road leading up to the house or what? He had

00:31:50.740 --> 00:31:53.380
been coming, he was gonna, I think he was coming

00:31:53.380 --> 00:31:57.440
down the road. He lived on up the creek ways

00:31:57.440 --> 00:32:00.140
and he was coming down to the road I think to

00:32:00.140 --> 00:32:02.740
go to the dump or something. Okay, so he saw

00:32:02.740 --> 00:32:05.099
you guys and you just went up to kind of explain

00:32:05.099 --> 00:32:09.480
who you were. Well, Hussey had blocked the road

00:32:09.480 --> 00:32:16.660
with his rig and he was coming up. And I guess

00:32:16.660 --> 00:32:18.960
I was in the field at that time because he was

00:32:18.960 --> 00:32:21.660
throwing the rocks at us and hollering. And I

00:32:21.660 --> 00:32:27.039
tried to give him a copy of the search warrant,

00:32:27.299 --> 00:32:31.299
but I really hadn't been cussed at that much

00:32:31.299 --> 00:32:35.640
since I was in Marine Corps boot camp. So where

00:32:35.640 --> 00:32:37.759
did Hussie come from? Was he up at the house

00:32:37.759 --> 00:32:39.759
and he saw you guys, or how did he know up here?

00:32:40.160 --> 00:32:43.720
Well, when we went to serve the search warrant,

00:32:44.319 --> 00:32:47.059
Tom, Steve and I went and knocked on his house.

00:32:47.140 --> 00:32:48.880
Oh, you went up there to tell him you were there.

00:32:49.099 --> 00:32:50.180
We wanted to give him a copy of the search warrant.

00:32:50.559 --> 00:32:54.400
Well, he wasn't home, so we went to the neighbor's

00:32:54.400 --> 00:32:57.059
house and we said, hey, we have a copy. We have

00:32:57.059 --> 00:32:59.119
a search warrant for that property up there.

00:32:59.299 --> 00:33:01.299
So we looked for a bullet and wanted to give

00:33:01.299 --> 00:33:06.180
it to Hussie. She said, well, he's in town and

00:33:06.180 --> 00:33:08.700
and my boss term I said, well, we're just gonna

00:33:08.700 --> 00:33:11.180
attack it on the door We so we just left the

00:33:11.180 --> 00:33:14.740
copy of the war on his door To give him notice

00:33:14.740 --> 00:33:16.900
that we had a warrant and we said we're gonna

00:33:16.900 --> 00:33:19.240
go up there She said well, he's not gonna be

00:33:19.240 --> 00:33:22.900
happy and I said, well, we're ordered by the

00:33:22.900 --> 00:33:25.519
court to serve this war So we drive up there

00:33:25.519 --> 00:33:28.039
Steve and I got out of the truck and we walked

00:33:28.039 --> 00:33:30.720
down to the creek And then it was shortly after

00:33:30.720 --> 00:33:32.880
that, not very long, we didn't even turn on our

00:33:32.880 --> 00:33:35.779
metal detectors. And there was a row of trees

00:33:35.779 --> 00:33:39.579
up above the creek. And we see Hussey cussing

00:33:39.579 --> 00:33:42.599
and he's walking through the trees. My first

00:33:42.599 --> 00:33:45.700
concern is, is he armed? Is he armed? Yeah, 100%.

00:33:45.700 --> 00:33:48.299
And he was telling us, I mean, I'm not going

00:33:48.299 --> 00:33:51.140
to say the language he was using, but, you know,

00:33:51.279 --> 00:33:56.039
get off this land and it's private. And we noticed

00:33:56.039 --> 00:34:00.420
he didn't have a gun. And And I was telling him,

00:34:00.420 --> 00:34:02.759
hey, we have a federal search warrant. We're

00:34:02.759 --> 00:34:04.680
directed to be here by a court. And he said,

00:34:04.839 --> 00:34:07.920
your federal search warrant is no good in this

00:34:07.920 --> 00:34:11.099
county. It's not valid anywhere in this county.

00:34:11.380 --> 00:34:13.280
And you've got to get off the land. And by then,

00:34:13.300 --> 00:34:15.480
he came down the creek. And he was on the opposite

00:34:15.480 --> 00:34:17.860
side of the creek as Steve and I. And that's

00:34:17.860 --> 00:34:19.940
when he started picking up rocks and hurling

00:34:19.940 --> 00:34:25.340
them at us. If I recall correctly, Steve McGone

00:34:25.340 --> 00:34:27.940
was recording this whole conversation when he

00:34:27.940 --> 00:34:32.159
got down close. I told Steve, I said, let's just

00:34:32.159 --> 00:34:36.320
hop across there and arrest him. Steve was a

00:34:36.320 --> 00:34:39.420
little worried because we might have heard him

00:34:39.420 --> 00:34:42.980
and he was not young. He didn't want to do that.

00:34:43.119 --> 00:34:46.960
He was 75, I think. He was 75. But he was throwing

00:34:46.960 --> 00:34:49.780
rocks at us. I'm like, yeah, let's hop across

00:34:49.780 --> 00:34:51.559
there and just throw him to the ground and arrest

00:34:51.559 --> 00:34:53.980
him, because I was done with it. And Steve said,

00:34:53.980 --> 00:34:57.139
yeah, let me see if I can talk him. And of course,

00:34:57.579 --> 00:34:59.860
he was still hollering at us. Our search warrant

00:34:59.860 --> 00:35:02.559
was not valid in that county. And I said, yeah,

00:35:02.559 --> 00:35:04.320
it is. And if you don't like it, move your buck

00:35:04.320 --> 00:35:07.440
to Russia. So that's why he told them during

00:35:07.440 --> 00:35:10.280
that conversation. Anyway, Steve calmed them

00:35:10.280 --> 00:35:13.179
down. actually got him. Steve said, well, why

00:35:13.179 --> 00:35:15.300
don't we go talk? He said, I called the sheriff

00:35:15.300 --> 00:35:18.039
and he's on his way. And Steve calmed down and

00:35:18.039 --> 00:35:20.639
finally said, Hey, let's go have a cup of coffee

00:35:20.639 --> 00:35:23.000
and wait up at the truck. So that's where we

00:35:23.000 --> 00:35:25.719
went from there. We, the three of us went back

00:35:25.719 --> 00:35:28.579
up the truck, hopped across the fence and waited

00:35:28.579 --> 00:35:32.539
for the sheriff. Steve, what was your reaction

00:35:32.539 --> 00:35:36.099
when this guy comes down here cursing at you?

00:35:36.199 --> 00:35:38.019
telling you you don't have any authority to be

00:35:38.019 --> 00:35:40.199
there when you've obviously presented him with

00:35:40.199 --> 00:35:42.599
a federal search warrant, and he's throwing rocks

00:35:42.599 --> 00:35:45.280
at you. Why was your reaction to that so different

00:35:45.280 --> 00:35:51.800
than Paul's? Well, I had met him before. OK.

00:35:52.219 --> 00:35:55.400
You knew Hussey. Yeah. Yeah, I had met him because

00:35:55.400 --> 00:35:57.460
I was up there. And when I collected the calf

00:35:57.460 --> 00:35:59.780
and collected the wolf, and we talked to him,

00:36:00.480 --> 00:36:04.099
and the sheriff was there. And I was a little.

00:36:04.329 --> 00:36:07.909
surprise. I'll tell you what it reminded me of,

00:36:08.289 --> 00:36:13.130
is it reminds me of someone that has PTSD, Post

00:36:13.130 --> 00:36:16.230
Traumatic Stress Disorder. That's what it reminded

00:36:16.230 --> 00:36:19.829
me of. And I know he had been in World War II,

00:36:20.389 --> 00:36:23.329
and I don't know how long that disorder lasts,

00:36:23.329 --> 00:36:25.869
but if it's not treated, it can last forever,

00:36:25.869 --> 00:36:29.309
I think. That's what it reminded me of. I mean,

00:36:29.449 --> 00:36:33.010
he could, I think if you were a federal agent,

00:36:33.239 --> 00:36:38.139
He could be real nice. You know, your interaction

00:36:38.139 --> 00:36:40.719
with each other and kind of how you worked through

00:36:40.719 --> 00:36:45.280
this situation, you guys were really good partners

00:36:45.280 --> 00:36:49.099
together. Because I used to work with Aaron Dean

00:36:49.099 --> 00:36:51.739
a lot, who was an agent in the Los Angeles field

00:36:51.739 --> 00:36:54.719
office. And Paul, I think I was more like you.

00:36:54.880 --> 00:36:57.500
I didn't really take a lot of shit from people.

00:36:58.420 --> 00:37:01.659
I'd put up with a little bit. But you start throwing

00:37:01.659 --> 00:37:03.440
rocks at me, or you start putting your hands

00:37:03.440 --> 00:37:06.119
on me, you're going to jail. I'm going to arrest

00:37:06.119 --> 00:37:10.199
you. And I always liked working with Aaron because

00:37:10.199 --> 00:37:14.420
between the two of us, one of us would kind of

00:37:14.420 --> 00:37:17.579
balance the other person out and deescalate,

00:37:17.940 --> 00:37:20.539
help deescalate if it was necessary, or just

00:37:20.539 --> 00:37:22.960
kind of reaffirm with each other, what are we

00:37:22.960 --> 00:37:25.019
going to do here? What's the best course of action?

00:37:25.380 --> 00:37:28.150
And you guys seemed like, You worked really well

00:37:28.150 --> 00:37:31.070
together in that way, right? I mean, you could

00:37:31.070 --> 00:37:34.610
have just jumped over the creek at that moment,

00:37:35.090 --> 00:37:37.289
put handcuffs on him, and if he resisted, you

00:37:37.289 --> 00:37:39.269
could have used force to arrest him because he

00:37:39.269 --> 00:37:41.969
was assaulting a federal officer at that point.

00:37:42.769 --> 00:37:46.730
100%. But Ed, you have to remember, now I'm almost

00:37:46.730 --> 00:37:49.789
as old as he was. But at the time, I knew he

00:37:49.789 --> 00:37:54.809
was 75 or 76. Yeah. And if you do that to an

00:37:54.809 --> 00:37:58.090
old person, You're damned if you do and damned

00:37:58.090 --> 00:38:00.710
if you don't. Well, yeah. Given where you were

00:38:00.710 --> 00:38:05.349
working too, right? Yeah. And actually I had

00:38:05.349 --> 00:38:07.929
called the fish and game on the radio because

00:38:07.929 --> 00:38:11.309
there was, I think I had an old cell, a bag phone

00:38:11.309 --> 00:38:13.510
or something, but there was no cell service there

00:38:13.510 --> 00:38:15.909
anyway. And then he called the sheriff's office

00:38:15.909 --> 00:38:19.750
because we wanted him to come out. Ah, okay.

00:38:19.869 --> 00:38:21.949
So both you and Hussey wanted the sheriff to

00:38:21.949 --> 00:38:26.039
come out. We all did. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. But as

00:38:26.039 --> 00:38:29.199
it turns out, he didn't recognize our warrant

00:38:29.199 --> 00:38:34.139
either. And regardless of what he says and what

00:38:34.139 --> 00:38:39.239
he said at two different congressional inquiries

00:38:39.239 --> 00:38:44.340
or meetings, his actions speak. Yeah. Well, we're

00:38:44.340 --> 00:38:46.300
getting ahead of ourselves here. I want to go

00:38:46.300 --> 00:38:49.440
back to you, Steve, turned on an audio recorder

00:38:49.440 --> 00:38:52.980
at some point. When did you do that and why did

00:38:52.980 --> 00:38:58.019
you decide to turn on an audio recorder? I think

00:38:58.019 --> 00:39:00.079
I turned it on when I heard him and he started

00:39:00.079 --> 00:39:03.719
cussing and I just knew things could not be good.

00:39:04.039 --> 00:39:06.420
That was smart. That turned out to be very smart.

00:39:07.039 --> 00:39:10.420
Well, I wanted to document it because I knew,

00:39:10.940 --> 00:39:14.940
I had the feeling there was more than just the

00:39:14.940 --> 00:39:19.219
dead calf and a dead wolf at this point. And

00:39:19.219 --> 00:39:23.139
I knew it was going to go somewhere. OK. So at

00:39:23.139 --> 00:39:25.139
this point, you haven't even started looking

00:39:25.139 --> 00:39:27.320
for a bullet. You have this confrontation with

00:39:27.320 --> 00:39:29.179
Hussey. You turn on your recorder. You're getting

00:39:29.179 --> 00:39:31.980
the whole exchange. Everything from Hussey yelling

00:39:31.980 --> 00:39:34.699
at you, cursing at you. You can even hear rocks

00:39:34.699 --> 00:39:37.480
hitting the ground and in the creek in the recording.

00:39:38.019 --> 00:39:42.059
And then your conversation is on there, what

00:39:42.059 --> 00:39:46.179
you say to him, what he says to you. And so.

00:39:46.799 --> 00:39:48.699
He tells you you called the sheriff. You want

00:39:48.699 --> 00:39:50.980
the sheriff to come out anyway. You've radioed

00:39:50.980 --> 00:39:54.079
the state game wardens that that's what you want.

00:39:54.519 --> 00:39:56.860
And then you go back up to the road with Hussey,

00:39:57.019 --> 00:40:01.559
right? Or up to the car or something like that.

00:40:01.599 --> 00:40:06.579
Yeah. And actually, you know, I was up by the

00:40:06.579 --> 00:40:11.880
road when the sheriff showed up. Yeah. So what

00:40:11.880 --> 00:40:14.659
happened when the sheriff shows up? Well, he

00:40:14.659 --> 00:40:18.400
asked to see a copy of the warrant, which I showed

00:40:18.400 --> 00:40:22.659
him. And then he asked for the probable cause

00:40:22.659 --> 00:40:25.980
statement, which we call the affidavit same thing.

00:40:26.000 --> 00:40:28.300
And we told him that was on file at the clerk's

00:40:28.300 --> 00:40:35.960
office. And he just looked and I started to go

00:40:35.960 --> 00:40:39.559
back onto the property and he stood in my way.

00:40:39.619 --> 00:40:42.960
The sheriff did? Yeah. Yeah, he tried to block

00:40:42.960 --> 00:40:45.039
me from going on to the property and he said,

00:40:46.059 --> 00:40:49.599
if a gene wants you to, to leave, then I think

00:40:49.599 --> 00:40:55.139
you ought to leave. Wow. Okay. He took gene kind

00:40:55.139 --> 00:41:01.719
of by the arm and, uh, they left. Huh? Paul,

00:41:01.760 --> 00:41:04.440
what was, uh, you and Tom Riley, agent Tom Riley

00:41:04.440 --> 00:41:06.840
are also there. What was your reaction to all

00:41:06.840 --> 00:41:10.039
this? The sheriff's pro, you know, response.

00:41:11.290 --> 00:41:16.650
Well, Tom Riley is a big man. He's a very big

00:41:16.650 --> 00:41:19.469
He plays defensive football. He was a defensive

00:41:19.469 --> 00:41:24.110
lineman For the Colts before he was an agent

00:41:24.110 --> 00:41:29.250
right and the sheriff was a little guy and When

00:41:29.250 --> 00:41:33.710
he told us that if Eugene Hussey doesn't want

00:41:33.710 --> 00:41:36.869
us on his land, we're not coming We're not getting

00:41:36.869 --> 00:41:40.469
on it and Steve McGones hops across the fence

00:41:40.469 --> 00:41:44.090
back online. I love that. He puts his hand on,

00:41:44.090 --> 00:41:48.610
he tries to block Steve. And I remember Tom Reilly

00:41:48.610 --> 00:41:52.170
gently, he was a gentle man. Even though he was

00:41:52.170 --> 00:41:55.329
big, he was gentle. I remember Tom Reilly putting

00:41:55.329 --> 00:41:59.449
his hand that's twice the size as my hand on

00:41:59.449 --> 00:42:03.210
that man's neck and said, don't even think about

00:42:03.210 --> 00:42:06.369
it or you're going to jail. He said this, wow,

00:42:06.409 --> 00:42:09.820
to the sheriff. To the sheriff. Wow. And I was

00:42:09.820 --> 00:42:12.619
kind of like, I could see the sheriff's gun.

00:42:12.679 --> 00:42:15.539
I could see his hand close to the gun. And I'm

00:42:15.539 --> 00:42:18.199
kind of behind the fence post thinking, is this

00:42:18.199 --> 00:42:20.820
going to be a shootout? With a sheriff. That's

00:42:20.820 --> 00:42:23.719
crazy. With a sheriff. And so I'm kind of behind

00:42:23.719 --> 00:42:28.940
the fence post there on the property side. And

00:42:28.940 --> 00:42:32.880
when Tom put his hand on there, the sheriff backed

00:42:32.880 --> 00:42:36.559
down. And he said, we'll go to plan B. Yeah.

00:42:36.710 --> 00:42:40.010
The sheriff said, we'll go to plan B, very cryptic.

00:42:40.349 --> 00:42:43.070
So he said, come on, Hussey, get in. So Hussey

00:42:43.070 --> 00:42:47.130
hopped in the sheriff's truck and they took off.

00:42:47.210 --> 00:42:51.110
Holy shit. One of Hussey's, who was that, that

00:42:51.110 --> 00:42:53.989
other guy that was there? His brother -in -law.

00:42:53.989 --> 00:42:56.289
His brother -in -law was coming down because

00:42:56.289 --> 00:42:58.650
he was going to empty his garbage and he had

00:42:58.650 --> 00:43:00.650
stopped there. And when he saw how tense things

00:43:00.650 --> 00:43:03.750
were getting, he hid behind his truck. And when

00:43:03.750 --> 00:43:06.599
the sheriff and Hussey left, he came out. And

00:43:06.599 --> 00:43:10.219
I remember saying, what is plan B mean? Yeah.

00:43:10.219 --> 00:43:12.400
And he said, they're going to be back here within

00:43:12.400 --> 00:43:16.800
a half an hour with a truckload or two of armed

00:43:16.800 --> 00:43:21.260
men. Holy shit. Guys off this property. Oh my

00:43:21.260 --> 00:43:24.099
God. That's scary. He turned around and went

00:43:24.099 --> 00:43:29.199
back up to his house and Tom and I and Steve

00:43:29.199 --> 00:43:31.900
talked for a minute. And so we got our metal

00:43:31.900 --> 00:43:34.460
detectors and we all went down to the creek.

00:43:34.710 --> 00:43:37.309
and we got down to the creek, and Steve, you

00:43:37.309 --> 00:43:39.050
can correct me if I'm wrong, but this is how

00:43:39.050 --> 00:43:42.250
I remember this, and I remember this pretty vividly.

00:43:42.590 --> 00:43:46.989
Tom, we started, we were just going to turn our

00:43:46.989 --> 00:43:50.150
metal detectors, and Tom said, hey Steve, where

00:43:50.150 --> 00:43:54.289
does this road go, and where does it go to? And

00:43:54.289 --> 00:43:57.329
Steve said, well it dead ends up there, what

00:43:57.329 --> 00:44:00.449
mile or so up the road, it's a dead end road.

00:44:00.690 --> 00:44:03.230
Yeah, it was more than that, but it was the waves,

00:44:03.309 --> 00:44:05.960
plus it was winter. It was waste. Plus, it was

00:44:05.960 --> 00:44:09.139
winter anyway. So, Tom Riley goes, let me get

00:44:09.139 --> 00:44:14.420
this right. We're in a box canyon with nowhere

00:44:14.420 --> 00:44:18.320
out, and we could be facing two truckloads of

00:44:18.320 --> 00:44:21.840
our men. And I said, well, that's what they said

00:44:21.840 --> 00:44:25.480
Plan B was going to be. I mean, I believed it

00:44:25.480 --> 00:44:31.219
because I dealt with this in Gem County and the

00:44:31.219 --> 00:44:35.530
anti -fed sentiment among even some law enforcement,

00:44:35.909 --> 00:44:39.949
not state patrol, but some rural counties had

00:44:39.949 --> 00:44:44.289
a lot of anti -government sentiment. And he said,

00:44:44.429 --> 00:44:47.690
you know, boys, he said, it's not worth risk

00:44:47.690 --> 00:44:50.369
in our lives or having to shoot someone to get

00:44:50.369 --> 00:44:55.550
this bullet. So we packed up and left. Holy cow.

00:44:56.469 --> 00:45:00.469
Yeah. And so we packed up our stuff, went up,

00:45:00.690 --> 00:45:05.800
left, and Steve, I guess we were in two different

00:45:05.800 --> 00:45:08.760
vehicles because Tom and I came from Boise. Yeah.

00:45:09.679 --> 00:45:13.820
And when Tom and I left, I remember looking in

00:45:13.820 --> 00:45:16.980
the mirror and I saw a pickup truck with Ben

00:45:16.980 --> 00:45:19.239
in it. It was kind of far, but they were in the

00:45:19.239 --> 00:45:21.880
back of a truck and they turned up that road.

00:45:23.019 --> 00:45:28.460
So that's what we did. Holy cow, that'll wake

00:45:28.460 --> 00:45:33.980
you up at night. I'll tell you what. major mistake

00:45:33.980 --> 00:45:38.099
on that in that I believed what would happen

00:45:38.099 --> 00:45:41.159
is when the sheriff got there, he would say,

00:45:41.420 --> 00:45:44.559
well, Mr. Hussey, this is a valid federal search

00:45:44.559 --> 00:45:47.260
warrant. They have a right to be here. I'll stay

00:45:47.260 --> 00:45:51.420
here with you. They can go down and search for

00:45:51.420 --> 00:45:54.639
half hour, an hour or whatever. And chances are

00:45:54.639 --> 00:45:56.179
we wouldn't find the bullet anyway. It could

00:45:56.179 --> 00:45:58.639
have went in the crack. Who knows? Right. Could

00:45:58.639 --> 00:46:00.460
have disintegrated too after it came out and

00:46:00.460 --> 00:46:02.730
hit a rock. I mean, I don't know. Sure. Anyway,

00:46:02.750 --> 00:46:06.750
I figured he would say that and I had turned

00:46:06.750 --> 00:46:11.170
my tape recorder off, uh, by this point. And

00:46:11.170 --> 00:46:13.769
that was a big mistake. I should have left it

00:46:13.769 --> 00:46:17.130
on and recorded him. And, and actually we should

00:46:17.130 --> 00:46:21.130
have had another person videotaping the whole,

00:46:21.130 --> 00:46:24.929
the whole deal, um, which I learned on future

00:46:24.929 --> 00:46:30.329
search warrants. We did. Yeah, it kind of shocks

00:46:30.329 --> 00:46:33.650
the conscience when you encounter another law

00:46:33.650 --> 00:46:37.829
enforcement officer who is clearly disregarding

00:46:37.829 --> 00:46:45.650
the law, basically assisting someone in obstructing

00:46:45.650 --> 00:46:48.110
law enforcement, obstructing. Basically, what

00:46:48.110 --> 00:46:50.750
that sheriff did was obstructed a federal investigation.

00:46:50.969 --> 00:46:53.889
Oh, absolutely. 100%. I mean, you expect that

00:46:53.889 --> 00:46:56.610
from the public, right? But you don't expect

00:46:56.610 --> 00:46:59.230
it from someone who's supposed to be on our side

00:46:59.230 --> 00:47:02.070
who's sworn to uphold the law and the Constitution.

00:47:02.369 --> 00:47:05.269
Exactly. And it's a crime to obstruct an investigation.

00:47:05.329 --> 00:47:07.949
It is. And that brings us to the next part of

00:47:07.949 --> 00:47:10.710
this. Yes. So what happens next? You guys sounds

00:47:10.710 --> 00:47:13.429
like pretty narrowly got out of there just in

00:47:13.429 --> 00:47:15.969
time before a bunch of armed thugs showed up

00:47:15.969 --> 00:47:18.860
who were going to make trouble. What do you guys

00:47:18.860 --> 00:47:20.840
do next after that? You've got this warrant.

00:47:21.239 --> 00:47:24.260
You weren't able to execute. You got a sheriff

00:47:24.260 --> 00:47:26.079
who obstructed justice. What do you could do

00:47:26.079 --> 00:47:29.460
next? Well, I can kind of take some of that.

00:47:29.679 --> 00:47:33.699
And from here, Tom and I go back to Boise. We

00:47:33.699 --> 00:47:37.820
go right to the office. It's fairly late by then.

00:47:38.300 --> 00:47:42.639
And we called Dave McMullen. He was the agent

00:47:42.639 --> 00:47:44.519
in charge of the whole region. And we briefed

00:47:44.519 --> 00:47:48.670
him. And then we called the, he suggested we

00:47:48.670 --> 00:47:51.349
call Interior Secretary Molly Beatty, and we

00:47:51.349 --> 00:47:53.250
briefed her on what would happen, because we

00:47:53.250 --> 00:47:56.929
knew this was gonna be, go sideways on us from

00:47:56.929 --> 00:48:00.289
a political standpoint. And we called the U .S.

00:48:00.429 --> 00:48:04.429
Attorney's Office, and I wrote up an affidavit

00:48:04.429 --> 00:48:08.849
as to why we didn't execute the warrant, because

00:48:08.849 --> 00:48:12.070
when you have a warrant, As you know, maybe some

00:48:12.070 --> 00:48:14.429
of the listeners don't understand this but it's

00:48:14.429 --> 00:48:18.769
not our It's not our option to execute that warrant

00:48:18.769 --> 00:48:22.309
serve the warrant right ordered by a court to

00:48:22.309 --> 00:48:25.929
do it So we have to do it. So we wrote up an

00:48:25.929 --> 00:48:28.250
affidavit I did as to why we did not execute

00:48:28.250 --> 00:48:33.269
the warrant and the next day I I Returned the

00:48:33.269 --> 00:48:35.949
warrant to the magistrate judge who issued the

00:48:35.949 --> 00:48:38.219
warrant Yeah, and that's an important note, Paul.

00:48:38.280 --> 00:48:40.719
That's a great note that you just made. It's

00:48:40.719 --> 00:48:43.019
a directive for agents to go serve the warrant

00:48:43.019 --> 00:48:45.179
and to do the things that are in the warrant.

00:48:45.320 --> 00:48:48.639
And so when you're done serving a warrant, the

00:48:48.639 --> 00:48:50.980
agent has to go back to the judge who issued

00:48:50.980 --> 00:48:53.019
the warrant and turn in what's called a return,

00:48:53.440 --> 00:48:56.059
which basically explains what evidence you seized

00:48:56.059 --> 00:48:58.679
and what day the warrant was served. Yeah, so

00:48:58.679 --> 00:49:02.039
they expect to know what you did with their order.

00:49:02.380 --> 00:49:05.000
Exactly. Exactly. OK, so go ahead. I'm sorry.

00:49:05.400 --> 00:49:08.500
No, no worries. So I returned the warrant to

00:49:08.500 --> 00:49:11.400
the magistrate judge who had issued it, and I

00:49:11.400 --> 00:49:13.420
returned it un -executed with the affidavit,

00:49:13.420 --> 00:49:16.500
and he read the affidavit, and he said, so you

00:49:16.500 --> 00:49:19.099
were obstructed by the sheriff, and that's why

00:49:19.099 --> 00:49:21.039
you did not execute this warrant. I said, yes,

00:49:21.039 --> 00:49:27.039
sir. I said, he told us that we weren't welcome

00:49:27.039 --> 00:49:29.480
on that land if the landowner didn't want us,

00:49:29.500 --> 00:49:35.469
and he told us we had to leave. When I told them

00:49:35.469 --> 00:49:39.489
F. David about the Plan B, he said, OK, I understand.

00:49:39.730 --> 00:49:41.510
I said, well, are you going to reissue the warrant?

00:49:41.570 --> 00:49:44.409
He said, well, a lot of that depends. Is the

00:49:44.409 --> 00:49:46.789
US attorney's office going to charge the sheriff

00:49:46.789 --> 00:49:49.909
with obstruction? And so I said, I don't know.

00:49:49.929 --> 00:49:52.869
At this point, they have all the information.

00:49:52.929 --> 00:49:55.050
They have all the evidence. And it was a clear

00:49:55.050 --> 00:49:57.570
case of obstructing a federal agent in the course

00:49:57.570 --> 00:50:01.590
of our duties. And what did the US attorney do

00:50:01.590 --> 00:50:04.840
or say about that? Well, we had a criminal chief

00:50:04.840 --> 00:50:10.340
and U .S. attorney and the U .S. attorney decided

00:50:10.340 --> 00:50:14.260
not to charge the sheriff. Okay. And a lot of

00:50:14.260 --> 00:50:17.780
the reason was, I mean, this was a highly charged

00:50:17.780 --> 00:50:21.420
time like we discussed earlier about federal

00:50:21.420 --> 00:50:24.840
agents not being liked or wanted anti -federal

00:50:24.840 --> 00:50:27.380
sentiment. And of course, the U .S. attorney

00:50:27.380 --> 00:50:32.239
was wanting to be a Senator at that time. And

00:50:32.239 --> 00:50:36.000
so, and, and there was, so there was a lot of,

00:50:36.000 --> 00:50:39.099
um, there was a lot of political stuff involved

00:50:39.099 --> 00:50:41.659
in not charging the sheriff like, and he should

00:50:41.659 --> 00:50:44.420
have been charged. We should have been back there

00:50:44.420 --> 00:50:47.679
with another warrant. And the, the, the magistrate

00:50:47.679 --> 00:50:50.260
judge was also up for district court judge, which

00:50:50.260 --> 00:50:53.539
he never got, but he was up for that. So a lot

00:50:53.539 --> 00:50:56.300
of people were afraid to do stuff because they

00:50:56.300 --> 00:50:58.559
were trying to save their political. careers.

00:50:58.880 --> 00:51:02.400
And we all know the US attorney at every district,

00:51:02.400 --> 00:51:04.960
that's a political appointee job. Absolutely.

00:51:05.139 --> 00:51:09.199
Yep. So nothing ever got done. Wow. No one was

00:51:09.199 --> 00:51:11.280
ever charged. We never went back there with a

00:51:11.280 --> 00:51:14.679
search warrant. And the sheriff never got charged.

00:51:15.280 --> 00:51:18.239
So this is very kind of important. And what's

00:51:18.239 --> 00:51:21.119
funny is this is a wolf case. And the whole wolf

00:51:21.119 --> 00:51:23.219
issue is kind of getting lost in the mix here.

00:51:23.639 --> 00:51:26.320
This very important early wolf poaching case

00:51:26.320 --> 00:51:31.559
basically gets lost in the shitstorm that is

00:51:31.559 --> 00:51:33.800
anti -government sentiment in the West there

00:51:33.800 --> 00:51:38.659
at that time. People tend to forget. I mean,

00:51:38.860 --> 00:51:42.219
yeah, it's the Endangered Species Act, but killing

00:51:42.219 --> 00:51:44.860
a wolf is a misdemeanor. It's a federal misdemeanor.

00:51:46.440 --> 00:51:48.719
It's not right, but it's not the crime of the

00:51:48.719 --> 00:51:51.579
century. But it's something that we investigate.

00:51:52.219 --> 00:51:54.599
100%. Yeah, and it was important for wolf recovery

00:51:54.599 --> 00:51:57.579
at the time that people be held accountable for

00:51:57.579 --> 00:52:00.199
wolf poaching because the numbers weren't very

00:52:00.199 --> 00:52:04.500
high at that time, right? So this case gets even

00:52:04.500 --> 00:52:08.619
crazier. Your investigation's kind of stalled

00:52:08.619 --> 00:52:10.380
because you can't get the warrant reissued, the

00:52:10.380 --> 00:52:12.420
sheriff's not going to get charged. You would

00:52:12.420 --> 00:52:16.619
think, OK, Hussie and the sheriff got away with

00:52:16.619 --> 00:52:20.500
it, whatever they did. That wasn't the end of

00:52:20.500 --> 00:52:22.619
it for these guys, was it? What did they do next?

00:52:22.980 --> 00:52:25.679
No, I'll let Steve kind of deal with that, talk

00:52:25.679 --> 00:52:29.380
about that part a little bit, about what happened

00:52:29.380 --> 00:52:33.019
with the senators and Molly Beatty. Steve, you

00:52:33.019 --> 00:52:36.000
want to talk about that a little bit? Yeah. Yeah,

00:52:36.179 --> 00:52:41.420
well, the headlines the next day in the paper

00:52:41.420 --> 00:52:47.599
were, armed agents serve for it. The lies, the

00:52:47.599 --> 00:52:51.860
lies begin. Yeah. And I was, I mean, of course

00:52:51.860 --> 00:52:54.579
I wore my sidearm when I went up to investigate

00:52:54.579 --> 00:52:57.420
it and to pick up the wolf and to the sheriff's

00:52:57.420 --> 00:52:59.679
office. And I mean, I wore it all the time. Of

00:52:59.679 --> 00:53:01.860
course, every day. I mean, that's what we do.

00:53:01.860 --> 00:53:06.800
Yep. Federal agent. But now it's armed agents

00:53:06.800 --> 00:53:13.519
serve for it. And from there, it just only got.

00:53:14.330 --> 00:53:19.329
Worse I guess because for whatever reason the

00:53:19.329 --> 00:53:24.030
sheriff kept putting things in the paper about

00:53:24.030 --> 00:53:27.170
rude agents aren't going to be tolerated in my

00:53:27.170 --> 00:53:33.769
county and they were really close to using too

00:53:33.769 --> 00:53:36.989
much force and yet it just went on and on and

00:53:36.989 --> 00:53:41.590
on and then Helen Chenoweth who was a representative

00:53:43.309 --> 00:53:48.469
She called a hearing in Boise which Salmon wasn't

00:53:48.469 --> 00:53:51.630
even in her district. I don't think and it was

00:53:51.630 --> 00:53:56.090
a one -sided thing that All he did was beat up

00:53:56.090 --> 00:53:59.889
federal agents and why agents are armed and federal

00:53:59.889 --> 00:54:04.769
land managers and all that stuff well, then The

00:54:04.769 --> 00:54:10.789
one that was made the most sense and trying to

00:54:10.889 --> 00:54:12.769
Well, the greatest effort at making the most

00:54:12.769 --> 00:54:15.789
sense out of this was Mike Crapo had a hearing

00:54:15.789 --> 00:54:21.190
in Washington, and both Hussey and Barceló testified

00:54:21.190 --> 00:54:25.429
there as well. But Crapo's hearing was pretty

00:54:25.429 --> 00:54:29.250
good. I mean, it wasn't nearly like Genevieve's,

00:54:29.250 --> 00:54:34.030
but the big point they're trying to make is that

00:54:34.030 --> 00:54:36.690
there wasn't any cooperation when, in fact, we

00:54:36.690 --> 00:54:38.949
had tried to cooperate. He wouldn't even return

00:54:38.949 --> 00:54:41.440
my calls most of the time. Yeah, you mentioned

00:54:41.440 --> 00:54:44.539
Barcelo. That was the sheriff, right? Yes. Yeah.

00:54:44.940 --> 00:54:46.900
And there's a couple of points here, Steve, that

00:54:46.900 --> 00:54:50.260
I know from talking to you before. Didn't Hussie

00:54:50.260 --> 00:54:53.559
lie that you guys had ransacked his house? No,

00:54:53.559 --> 00:54:55.539
that wasn't him. Oh, that wasn't him. Somebody

00:54:55.539 --> 00:54:57.199
said that though, didn't they? I don't know.

00:54:58.019 --> 00:55:01.539
That was the Idaho Farm Bureau said that we searched

00:55:01.539 --> 00:55:05.860
his house without a warrant. Completely not.

00:55:06.090 --> 00:55:08.929
Yeah. Somebody got that information wrong, though.

00:55:10.050 --> 00:55:13.329
That was in the paper that we had gone in and

00:55:13.329 --> 00:55:16.269
ransacked his house and tore it apart. And all

00:55:16.269 --> 00:55:20.489
we did was put a copy of the warrant. And then,

00:55:20.650 --> 00:55:24.349
of course, Hussey and the sheriff got on the

00:55:24.349 --> 00:55:29.289
phone with the senators, Chenoweth and another

00:55:29.289 --> 00:55:32.639
senator. Larry Crane. Larry Craig was the other

00:55:32.639 --> 00:55:34.760
Senator and they got on the phone with them and

00:55:34.760 --> 00:55:37.260
said the same thing. And then of course, who

00:55:37.260 --> 00:55:40.320
do they go to? Molly Beatty, who's our director.

00:55:40.599 --> 00:55:43.380
And then she comes and Tom and I have briefed

00:55:43.380 --> 00:55:46.719
her on exactly what we did. Yeah. So Molly Beatty

00:55:46.719 --> 00:55:49.139
was the director of the fish and wildlife service

00:55:49.139 --> 00:55:54.059
at the time. Yeah. And we had briefed her that

00:55:54.059 --> 00:55:56.260
night. We did the search warrant. When we got

00:55:56.260 --> 00:55:59.400
back to Boise, we briefed her by Tom talked to

00:55:59.400 --> 00:56:01.829
her and I was in his office. And we told her

00:56:01.829 --> 00:56:04.530
exactly what happened. She comes out the next

00:56:04.530 --> 00:56:07.909
day or the day after, after she gets complaints

00:56:07.909 --> 00:56:11.610
from the senators and believes them and says,

00:56:12.030 --> 00:56:14.909
fish wife agents, that we made some mistakes

00:56:14.909 --> 00:56:20.190
in serving that woman. Unbelievable. It went

00:56:20.190 --> 00:56:23.730
further than that too. Didn't she issue basically

00:56:23.730 --> 00:56:26.269
a directive that all agents in the service would

00:56:26.699 --> 00:56:29.219
from that point forward, not conduct Endangered

00:56:29.219 --> 00:56:31.820
Species Act, take investigations without approval

00:56:31.820 --> 00:56:33.880
from the director's office. Didn't she do that?

00:56:34.400 --> 00:56:38.440
Yeah, I believe I recall that. Yes, she did.

00:56:39.000 --> 00:56:42.880
Yeah, she has to be notified. So she did clarify

00:56:42.880 --> 00:56:46.019
that she's in her statement, which was pretty

00:56:46.019 --> 00:56:49.219
long. And she testified at the congressional

00:56:49.219 --> 00:56:55.900
hearing in Washington that if any mistakes were

00:56:55.900 --> 00:56:59.730
made, It wasn't by the agents, it was by the

00:56:59.730 --> 00:57:07.010
heads of the divisions. I'm not keeping her informed.

00:57:07.650 --> 00:57:11.030
Okay. Wow. Okay. Even though you called that

00:57:11.030 --> 00:57:14.710
night to tell her exactly what happened. Unbelievable.

00:57:16.469 --> 00:57:19.969
She wasn't prepared for the political heat. No,

00:57:20.690 --> 00:57:25.719
no. Yeah, I think unfortunately, we worked in

00:57:25.719 --> 00:57:28.159
an agency that is a law enforcement agency, but

00:57:28.159 --> 00:57:31.900
a big portion of it is not. And Molly Beatty

00:57:31.900 --> 00:57:35.760
was not a law enforcement officer by experience

00:57:35.760 --> 00:57:39.139
or training. And they sometimes are unprepared

00:57:39.139 --> 00:57:41.460
for the fact that they lead a law enforcement

00:57:41.460 --> 00:57:46.900
agency. Yeah. Yeah, you hit that right on the

00:57:46.900 --> 00:57:50.579
nail. I mean, we had great support from inside

00:57:50.579 --> 00:57:53.820
law enforcement, from the chief down. But man,

00:57:54.079 --> 00:57:58.139
from the top. And like I said, law enforcement

00:57:58.139 --> 00:58:01.360
was a tiny part of Fish and Wildlife. Right.

00:58:01.500 --> 00:58:04.079
Tiny. What, we have 180 agents at that time?

00:58:04.079 --> 00:58:07.000
Yeah, something like that. Right, right, right.

00:58:07.019 --> 00:58:10.780
In the whole country. Yeah. And I think that

00:58:10.780 --> 00:58:14.139
has repeated itself in other incidents that have

00:58:14.139 --> 00:58:16.300
occurred, where Fish and Wildlife service law

00:58:16.300 --> 00:58:19.300
enforcement gets involved in something that's

00:58:19.300 --> 00:58:23.440
pretty newsworthy. And the non -law enforcement

00:58:23.440 --> 00:58:26.039
people who lead the service kind of forget, oh,

00:58:26.099 --> 00:58:27.800
shoot, this is a law enforcement agency. And

00:58:27.800 --> 00:58:29.380
they kind of drop the ball, and they fail to

00:58:29.380 --> 00:58:32.780
lead. Anyway, so at this congressional hearing,

00:58:32.880 --> 00:58:34.920
there were a lot of lies told about you guys

00:58:34.920 --> 00:58:38.340
and what happened. But what saved you at that

00:58:38.340 --> 00:58:40.840
congressional hearing? Not saved you, but what

00:58:40.840 --> 00:58:44.119
basically showed all of those people to be liars,

00:58:44.659 --> 00:58:48.940
Steve? At the congressional hearing, I can tell

00:58:48.940 --> 00:58:53.559
you, let me look at my notes for a second. The

00:58:53.559 --> 00:58:59.159
hearings were like March 17th and then in Boise

00:58:59.159 --> 00:59:02.420
and the one in Washington was March 30th. But

00:59:02.420 --> 00:59:05.420
that tape wasn't transcribed and notarized, it

00:59:05.420 --> 00:59:12.460
was notarized on March 29th. So they weren't

00:59:12.460 --> 00:59:16.159
able to play that tape or the transcript. at

00:59:16.159 --> 00:59:19.440
the hearing. Okay. Well, what would have been

00:59:19.440 --> 00:59:21.420
nice is if they would have had a copy of the

00:59:21.420 --> 00:59:24.420
tape and played it at the hearing. 100%. Yeah,

00:59:24.420 --> 00:59:27.300
right. I mean, and they would have, they would

00:59:27.300 --> 00:59:30.780
have had a rude awakening on who was the aggressor,

00:59:30.860 --> 00:59:34.480
and who was rude, what the sheriff did and all

00:59:34.480 --> 00:59:36.739
that kind of stuff. Well, I'll tell you what,

00:59:36.780 --> 00:59:38.460
Steve and Paul, I think one of the things that

00:59:38.460 --> 00:59:41.019
really vindicated you guys and says everything

00:59:41.019 --> 00:59:44.369
about what the truth was, was Yeah, like you

00:59:44.369 --> 00:59:45.670
said, Steve, unfortunately, it couldn't have

00:59:45.670 --> 00:59:49.889
been played at the hearing. But a periodical

00:59:49.889 --> 00:59:52.289
called High Country News later did an article

00:59:52.289 --> 00:59:55.110
about this incident. And the headline of the

00:59:55.110 --> 00:59:59.170
article is basically, did Idaho libel the feds?

00:59:59.230 --> 01:00:02.349
And I think that says everything, right? Because

01:00:02.349 --> 01:00:04.369
as you read the article, you realize that this

01:00:04.369 --> 01:00:08.190
local sheriff and Hussie really went on a misinformation

01:00:08.190 --> 01:00:11.630
campaign to intentionally try to lie to discredit

01:00:11.630 --> 01:00:14.420
you guys, you. both of you individually and,

01:00:14.420 --> 01:00:18.039
and agent Riley, of course. So really that is,

01:00:18.039 --> 01:00:20.619
uh, it must've been nice to read that and to

01:00:20.619 --> 01:00:23.219
know that, okay, the truth's out here now, right?

01:00:23.579 --> 01:00:26.119
Yeah, but you know, their intent, I just keep

01:00:26.119 --> 01:00:29.960
going back to their intent. And, you know, the

01:00:29.960 --> 01:00:34.019
sheriff says, uh, that we didn't cooperate with

01:00:34.019 --> 01:00:36.659
him. I would have loved to have cooperated, but

01:00:36.659 --> 01:00:39.860
you know, I have a copy. You probably can't see

01:00:39.860 --> 01:00:44.679
it. I'll show you. Let me see if you can see

01:00:44.679 --> 01:00:48.719
it. See that picture of the guy in uniform there?

01:00:48.880 --> 01:00:53.719
Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's Sheriff Marcello posing

01:00:53.719 --> 01:00:56.880
for a photo op with a dead wolf and calf before

01:00:56.880 --> 01:00:59.699
I ever got there. Oh, so he'd already been out

01:00:59.699 --> 01:01:03.679
there many, yeah, unbelievable. Yeah, and the

01:01:03.679 --> 01:01:06.059
writer up there for the paper, Candice Burns,

01:01:07.119 --> 01:01:09.940
she's the one that wrote that. that article about

01:01:09.940 --> 01:01:12.219
three armed agents, and the sheriff was making

01:01:12.219 --> 01:01:15.400
the big deal about armed agents. Of course, she

01:01:15.400 --> 01:01:18.019
didn't mention that the sheriff was armed, which

01:01:18.019 --> 01:01:22.440
he should be. We should all be. Yeah, that whole

01:01:22.440 --> 01:01:24.960
discussion about why are Fish and Wildlife Service

01:01:24.960 --> 01:01:27.480
agents armed is just absurd to me. I mean, we're

01:01:27.480 --> 01:01:31.360
1811 federal agents. We're armed, and there's

01:01:31.360 --> 01:01:35.260
no question about it. He didn't stop there. The

01:01:35.260 --> 01:01:38.500
sheriff went on to testify. at the congressional

01:01:38.500 --> 01:01:42.980
hearing that he didn't understand why, uh, game

01:01:42.980 --> 01:01:46.500
wardens should be armed either. And one of the

01:01:46.500 --> 01:01:49.179
people in Idaho, they're called conservation

01:01:49.179 --> 01:01:51.840
officers on Canada. They're called game wardens.

01:01:52.599 --> 01:01:55.679
But at one of the hearings, someone asked, well,

01:01:55.679 --> 01:01:58.719
have you heard of Claude Dallas? I was just going

01:01:58.719 --> 01:02:02.400
to say, Claude was testifying. He never answered,

01:02:02.400 --> 01:02:07.099
but to show you the feeling someone else. A couple

01:02:07.099 --> 01:02:10.860
other people in the crowd gave negative support

01:02:10.860 --> 01:02:15.460
to law enforcement after that comment. Unbelievable.

01:02:15.960 --> 01:02:18.079
Yeah, but listeners don't know. I'm sure they

01:02:18.079 --> 01:02:20.980
do. But if they don't, Claude Dallas is a notorious

01:02:20.980 --> 01:02:24.219
poacher who murdered two Idaho State game wardens

01:02:24.219 --> 01:02:28.699
for basically just checking his hunting camp.

01:02:29.059 --> 01:02:32.400
Yeah. I think it was in 81 probably. Yeah, 81.

01:02:32.840 --> 01:02:34.659
Dumped their bodies in a river. Yeah, it was

01:02:34.659 --> 01:02:39.730
pretty awful. Paul, you felt particularly aggrieved

01:02:39.730 --> 01:02:43.750
by the lies that had occurred and the reaction

01:02:43.750 --> 01:02:46.710
of Molly Beatty. What did you do, you and Agent

01:02:46.710 --> 01:02:50.590
Riley did after that? Well, I mean, we both consulted

01:02:50.590 --> 01:02:54.010
attorneys. And I don't remember if Tom ever actually

01:02:54.010 --> 01:02:57.949
hired one, but I consulted one and I had one

01:02:57.949 --> 01:03:01.329
ready. And he actually wrote a letter to her.

01:03:02.340 --> 01:03:05.559
and demanded that she recant her statement, which

01:03:05.559 --> 01:03:09.139
she did at some point after that, I think. She

01:03:09.139 --> 01:03:11.460
died not long after that, and I don't remember

01:03:11.460 --> 01:03:15.599
of what, but it was sometime after that incident,

01:03:15.599 --> 01:03:18.440
she did recant it. And, you know, looking back

01:03:18.440 --> 01:03:21.239
on the whole thing, like that High Country article

01:03:21.239 --> 01:03:24.059
you said, I mean, we were liable. We could have

01:03:24.059 --> 01:03:30.860
sued a lot of people. in Idaho. But I chose not

01:03:30.860 --> 01:03:33.500
to. My attorney said, you know, he thought we

01:03:33.500 --> 01:03:36.139
had a really good case, but I chose not to. So.

01:03:36.679 --> 01:03:39.920
Yeah. Why inflame it? Yeah. I mean, I just kind

01:03:39.920 --> 01:03:43.059
of, it was really disheartening and discouraging,

01:03:43.260 --> 01:03:45.480
but I decided I just wanted to put it behind

01:03:45.480 --> 01:03:48.579
me and move on. Well, listen, I want to commend

01:03:48.579 --> 01:03:50.460
both you guys for how you handled that case.

01:03:50.480 --> 01:03:52.840
I mean, it's frustrating because this Wolf case

01:03:52.840 --> 01:03:55.380
went basically uninvestigated and nobody was

01:03:55.380 --> 01:03:58.289
held accountable because you were blocked at

01:03:58.289 --> 01:04:01.570
every opportunity. But you really handled yourselves

01:04:01.570 --> 01:04:04.550
professionally, like professional federal agents,

01:04:05.090 --> 01:04:10.429
safely, respectfully. It's really a model for

01:04:10.429 --> 01:04:13.510
how agents should act in the field. So kudos

01:04:13.510 --> 01:04:15.469
to both of you guys for how you handled the case

01:04:15.469 --> 01:04:18.329
and weathered the storm. It must have been tough.

01:04:19.010 --> 01:04:21.449
Hey, before we wrap up, there was one thing,

01:04:21.690 --> 01:04:23.469
Paul, you mentioned to me when we were talking

01:04:23.469 --> 01:04:26.960
before this interview. When the wolves were set

01:04:26.960 --> 01:04:29.679
to be reintroduced in Idaho and Yellowstone,

01:04:30.159 --> 01:04:31.820
there were some threats that were made against

01:04:31.820 --> 01:04:34.380
wolves. Did either of you, I think, Paul, you

01:04:34.380 --> 01:04:36.219
did. If you did, can you explain it? Did either

01:04:36.219 --> 01:04:40.840
of you have any involvement in protecting the

01:04:40.840 --> 01:04:42.900
wolves as they were in those acclimation pens

01:04:42.900 --> 01:04:45.119
prior to release in Yellowstone? Yeah. I mean,

01:04:45.800 --> 01:04:49.659
we were requested by Fish and Wildlife, the biologists

01:04:49.659 --> 01:04:52.360
who were going to Transport them into the wilderness

01:04:52.360 --> 01:04:55.820
area that we come along and provide security

01:04:55.820 --> 01:04:59.280
Because there were threats made to their lives

01:04:59.280 --> 01:05:01.760
if we if fish and wildlife goes through with

01:05:01.760 --> 01:05:06.699
this in reintroduction of the wolves so was Tom

01:05:06.699 --> 01:05:09.940
Riley myself and Steve we all went in that was

01:05:09.940 --> 01:05:12.739
the first release I believe wasn't it Steve in

01:05:12.739 --> 01:05:17.300
January 1995 and we went in on snow machines

01:05:17.300 --> 01:05:20.659
and and yeah to protect the biologists. We drove

01:05:20.659 --> 01:05:23.179
up there with them. We were in three cars to

01:05:23.179 --> 01:05:26.179
provide one car in front and two behind to provide

01:05:26.179 --> 01:05:28.699
protection all the way up there and during the

01:05:28.699 --> 01:05:33.340
release and back. Yeah. And, uh, yeah, Steve.

01:05:33.960 --> 01:05:36.539
Well, there was a, I used to have it. I don't

01:05:36.539 --> 01:05:38.800
have it anymore, but there was a little sign

01:05:38.800 --> 01:05:43.980
posted up near salmon in a store that a guy took

01:05:43.980 --> 01:05:47.539
it down and gave it to me that said, uh, kill

01:05:47.539 --> 01:05:49.940
all the wolves and the people that put them there.

01:05:51.460 --> 01:05:57.340
So yeah, you got the pro -wolf people on one

01:05:57.340 --> 01:06:01.099
side and you have the anti -wolf people on one

01:06:01.099 --> 01:06:04.199
side. There's just not very many people that

01:06:04.199 --> 01:06:06.340
are neutral about it. They're real passionate.

01:06:07.539 --> 01:06:09.719
Yeah, I don't know, Steve. I feel like there's

01:06:09.719 --> 01:06:13.460
more people who are kind of, I think the extremes

01:06:13.460 --> 01:06:16.090
are always the the minorities, but maybe I'm

01:06:16.090 --> 01:06:20.530
wrong. I don't know. But one thing that strikes

01:06:20.530 --> 01:06:22.710
me about that, Paul, is they wanted you for security,

01:06:22.750 --> 01:06:24.409
and I bet they were damn glad you were armed.

01:06:25.170 --> 01:06:29.690
Yeah, very glad. With long guns and handguns.

01:06:29.829 --> 01:06:32.989
Exactly. Well, at one point, the sheriff had

01:06:32.989 --> 01:06:37.389
said, if he deemed it necessary, he would stop

01:06:37.389 --> 01:06:39.750
the wolves from coming into the county. And I

01:06:39.750 --> 01:06:43.420
don't know. What he deemed necessary, but yeah,

01:06:43.420 --> 01:06:45.900
I know the rhetoric is you got to take that stuff

01:06:45.900 --> 01:06:47.420
seriously because you don't know what people

01:06:47.420 --> 01:06:51.679
mean, right? Yeah, well That doesn't sound real

01:06:51.679 --> 01:06:56.539
cooperative Sure doesn't sure doesn't Hey to

01:06:56.539 --> 01:06:58.860
wrap up what I'm doing. I'm asking all my guests

01:06:58.860 --> 01:07:01.639
at the end of their interviews What they think

01:07:01.639 --> 01:07:04.219
of wolves being reintroduced into the Western

01:07:04.219 --> 01:07:06.639
United States? So we'll start with you Steve

01:07:06.639 --> 01:07:10.659
as an agent former agent and as an individual

01:07:10.920 --> 01:07:13.059
What's your view on wolf reintroduction in the

01:07:13.059 --> 01:07:18.219
West? Well, I think there should be a few, but

01:07:18.219 --> 01:07:21.280
I don't think there should be too many because

01:07:21.280 --> 01:07:26.099
of conflict with livestock. You know, if they're

01:07:26.099 --> 01:07:29.719
killing livestock, a wolf or a bear for that

01:07:29.719 --> 01:07:32.880
matter, you can't just pick it up and take it

01:07:32.880 --> 01:07:34.960
somewhere and drop it off and think it's not

01:07:34.960 --> 01:07:39.690
going to continue to kill easy prey. But generally

01:07:39.690 --> 01:07:42.670
you support the wolf reintroduction. Oh Sure,

01:07:43.250 --> 01:07:45.389
but it's also aggravating when I go out and go

01:07:45.389 --> 01:07:48.030
elk hunting and the first thing you see is Help

01:07:48.030 --> 01:07:50.750
there is a wolf tracks right there. I mean, we

01:07:50.750 --> 01:07:53.269
have plenty of wolves around Libby too and you

01:07:53.269 --> 01:07:57.510
know Salmon and Limhi County isn't the only place

01:07:57.510 --> 01:07:59.789
with them. We just don't have that many cattle

01:07:59.789 --> 01:08:02.710
here Yeah, what that means is the wolves are

01:08:02.710 --> 01:08:04.789
gonna scare off the elk. You're trying to hunt

01:08:04.789 --> 01:08:08.289
Absolutely, so they're smart You know, say you

01:08:08.289 --> 01:08:11.230
go to a grocery store and there's some gang hanging

01:08:11.230 --> 01:08:13.389
out there. Are you going to get out and go in

01:08:13.389 --> 01:08:15.550
or go to another store? Well, I'm going to go

01:08:15.550 --> 01:08:19.710
in because I'm not afraid of anybody. Yeah. I'll

01:08:19.710 --> 01:08:24.630
go to another store. All right. Paul, what? Oh,

01:08:24.630 --> 01:08:26.409
go ahead. Sorry, Steve. Well, there should be

01:08:26.409 --> 01:08:28.729
a few, but just not too many. They have to be

01:08:28.729 --> 01:08:32.689
managed. You know, they're an apex predator that

01:08:32.689 --> 01:08:36.069
reproduce quickly. And they have to be managed.

01:08:37.949 --> 01:08:41.489
And a few people say, well, they only kill a

01:08:41.489 --> 01:08:44.510
few cattle. But if you're the person that owns

01:08:44.510 --> 01:08:49.670
that cow or calf or sheep, that can really impact

01:08:49.670 --> 01:08:55.710
your pocketbook. So on an individual thing, it

01:08:55.710 --> 01:09:00.010
can be really expensive. Yeah. Yeah. I understand

01:09:00.010 --> 01:09:01.989
that, Steve. I totally get it. I always come

01:09:01.989 --> 01:09:05.319
back to Looking at statistics of losses of cattle

01:09:05.319 --> 01:09:09.819
in the West, predators are such a small minority

01:09:09.819 --> 01:09:13.239
of the losses. Most of it's due to disease. Yeah.

01:09:13.260 --> 01:09:17.460
But yeah. The thing that gets me about the management

01:09:17.460 --> 01:09:20.880
thing is I've never understood why you don't

01:09:20.880 --> 01:09:23.880
treat wolf reintroduction as a successful opportunity

01:09:23.880 --> 01:09:29.779
for trophy wolf hunting. It's another opportunity

01:09:29.779 --> 01:09:32.399
that could be presented. That's what you do here

01:09:32.399 --> 01:09:35.520
now. Well, yeah, I mean, I don't know. There's

01:09:35.520 --> 01:09:37.359
some debate about that in terms of the numbers

01:09:37.359 --> 01:09:39.380
they're allowing to be killed as to whether or

01:09:39.380 --> 01:09:41.899
not it's proper management. But that's probably

01:09:41.899 --> 01:09:44.739
a purpose for another episode or a whole other

01:09:44.739 --> 01:09:48.239
show. Well, the thing is that not many people

01:09:48.239 --> 01:09:52.140
can successfully go trap or shoot a wolf. It's

01:09:52.140 --> 01:09:55.640
not easy. I'm out all the time in the winter.

01:09:56.119 --> 01:09:59.199
And you'll see their tracks. and you have to

01:09:59.199 --> 01:10:01.520
worry about them killing your hounds when you're

01:10:01.520 --> 01:10:04.479
running a lion or a bobcat if you see wolf tracks

01:10:04.479 --> 01:10:08.279
you don't turn loose but in reality most people

01:10:08.279 --> 01:10:11.439
can't trap them and you never see them in the

01:10:11.439 --> 01:10:13.619
daytime hardly ever i've only seen them two or

01:10:13.619 --> 01:10:16.739
three times in 20 years yeah yeah they're elusive

01:10:16.739 --> 01:10:19.039
there's no doubt i've same i've seen a few but

01:10:19.039 --> 01:10:21.399
not every time i go that's for sure they're pretty

01:10:21.399 --> 01:10:25.060
smart yeah paul what are your views on a wolf

01:10:25.060 --> 01:10:28.840
reintroduction I'll go start with that by asking

01:10:28.840 --> 01:10:31.079
Steve Steve. How many are you allowed to kill

01:10:31.079 --> 01:10:34.659
in Montana wolves right now? I don't know probably

01:10:34.659 --> 01:10:37.939
probably five or ten, but nobody does I think

01:10:37.939 --> 01:10:41.859
it's ten but nobody does no can't find them and

01:10:41.859 --> 01:10:46.460
I'll say this like Who how did they how did they

01:10:46.460 --> 01:10:51.140
disappear in the first place, right? Poison That's

01:10:51.140 --> 01:10:53.640
how they disappeared. Well, no one's gonna allow

01:10:53.640 --> 01:10:58.539
that anymore and I honestly, I remember standing

01:10:58.539 --> 01:11:02.239
up in a meeting with Fish and Wildlife and discuss

01:11:02.239 --> 01:11:05.979
this. I'm like, look, you're going to spend,

01:11:06.140 --> 01:11:08.640
and we did, the government spent, and this is

01:11:08.640 --> 01:11:12.260
why the government people hated us. We spent

01:11:12.260 --> 01:11:15.600
millions and millions and millions of dollars

01:11:15.600 --> 01:11:18.680
studying them and putting them in. And guess

01:11:18.680 --> 01:11:21.899
what we're doing now? We're spending millions

01:11:21.899 --> 01:11:24.939
and millions of dollars in trying to control

01:11:24.939 --> 01:11:28.550
them. Because they're out of control, honestly.

01:11:28.949 --> 01:11:34.409
You can't hunt them. You can't trap them to control

01:11:34.409 --> 01:11:37.270
them. The only way you can control the population

01:11:37.270 --> 01:11:39.890
really is with poison. And no one's going to

01:11:39.890 --> 01:11:41.789
want to do that. I'm sure there's people doing

01:11:41.789 --> 01:11:45.050
it, right? But the government's not doing it.

01:11:45.069 --> 01:11:47.949
So they're hard to control. And at the end of

01:11:47.949 --> 01:11:51.250
the day, like Steve said, they're like a dog.

01:11:51.310 --> 01:11:55.239
They breed and they have a lot of puppies. I

01:11:55.239 --> 01:12:00.159
mean, I honestly didn't see the sense in doing

01:12:00.159 --> 01:12:05.119
that many. I said, look, if you're going to put

01:12:05.119 --> 01:12:09.659
in 10 and cut it off, and they didn't. They kept

01:12:09.659 --> 01:12:11.439
putting them in and putting them in and putting

01:12:11.439 --> 01:12:18.779
them in. No wonder people hated us. I agree with

01:12:18.779 --> 01:12:21.020
you, Ed. I think you have extremists on both

01:12:21.020 --> 01:12:23.239
sides and most people are in the middle. at the

01:12:23.239 --> 01:12:26.100
end of the day on most things. And I think including

01:12:26.100 --> 01:12:29.579
the wolf thing. And, and most people were kind

01:12:29.579 --> 01:12:32.260
in the middle on this. I think, well, yeah, it'd

01:12:32.260 --> 01:12:35.220
be nice to have a few and it may take longer

01:12:35.220 --> 01:12:38.420
for them to have very many, but at the end of

01:12:38.420 --> 01:12:41.039
day, they will have a lot of them. And now we

01:12:41.039 --> 01:12:44.859
have a lot of them. Yeah. They're reclaiming

01:12:44.859 --> 01:12:48.279
territory. Yeah. I mean, I just, I, I, I was

01:12:48.279 --> 01:12:51.180
looking ahead like, 30 years and here we are

01:12:51.180 --> 01:12:53.800
30 years later spending millions and they're

01:12:53.800 --> 01:12:56.840
hard to control and you can't hunt them You can't

01:12:56.840 --> 01:12:59.899
control them by hunting. I mean Steve's a mountain

01:12:59.899 --> 01:13:06.939
man Steve was born a hundred years too late There's

01:13:06.939 --> 01:13:11.140
no question in my mind He's only seen a couple

01:13:11.140 --> 01:13:17.760
in 20 years, right? You know, so it's Yeah, I

01:13:17.760 --> 01:13:19.760
mean, I just I didn't see a lot of sense in it.

01:13:19.819 --> 01:13:22.600
Maybe I agree with Steve, maybe a handful of

01:13:22.600 --> 01:13:24.680
them and then leave it at that and give them

01:13:24.680 --> 01:13:28.800
time to to to populate. Great perspectives, guys.

01:13:28.840 --> 01:13:31.840
I appreciate you giving us your opinion. Also,

01:13:31.840 --> 01:13:34.560
I really appreciate you guys being willing to

01:13:34.560 --> 01:13:36.520
come on the show and talk about this. I could

01:13:36.520 --> 01:13:39.079
talk to you both of you all day. There's other

01:13:39.079 --> 01:13:41.859
cases you guys have worked on together and separately

01:13:41.859 --> 01:13:44.199
that I would love to have you talk about on the.

01:13:44.650 --> 01:13:46.949
podcast. I hope both of you will consider coming

01:13:46.949 --> 01:13:51.430
back someday. Thanks, Ed. Awesome. It's been

01:13:51.430 --> 01:13:54.670
great to talk to you. This is such a fascinating

01:13:54.670 --> 01:13:59.010
incident case. I loved how it played out. And

01:13:59.010 --> 01:14:01.930
thank you both for the work you did for the Fish

01:14:01.930 --> 01:14:03.390
and Wildlife Service. And thanks for being on

01:14:03.390 --> 01:14:06.890
the show. Thanks for having us, Ed. Absolutely.

01:14:07.350 --> 01:14:09.630
Anytime. All right, everybody. Thanks for joining

01:14:09.630 --> 01:14:13.260
us today. We'll see you next time. Nature's Secret

01:14:13.260 --> 01:14:16.039
Service is written and produced by me, Ed Newcomer,

01:14:16.260 --> 01:14:19.319
and is co -produced by the DHTV team here at

01:14:19.319 --> 01:14:21.300
California State University Dominguez Hills.

01:14:21.619 --> 01:14:23.619
Follow us on social media and connect with us

01:14:23.619 --> 01:14:25.979
online at naturessecretservice .com.