WEBVTT

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Hey gang, Ed the Fed here. Welcome to the first

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episode of Season 3 of Nature's Secret Service.

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I want to thank each and every one of you for

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hanging in there as a fan and for doing whatever

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you can to help me grow the listener base. Before

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we get started, I want to make a correction for

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an error in a previous episode. Loyal listener

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Jeff H. from Wisconsin caught an error in the

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Ambush episode of Season 2. In describing the

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area where Special Agent Vic Blasevik worked

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when he was ambushed and shot by duck poachers,

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I described Illinois as falling within the Central

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Flyway for migratory birds. Illinois actually

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falls within the Mississippi Flyway. The Central

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Flyway is farther to the west. Great catch, Jeff,

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and thank you for taking the time to email me

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with that correction. Considering I was a U .S.

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Fish and Wildlife Service Special Agent and a

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really critical aspect of my job was protecting

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migratory birds, I felt pretty stupid for making

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that mistake, but I'm very happy to be correcting

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it now. Alright people, it's time for the premiere

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of Season 3, Wolves. Here. We. Go. Okay, people

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listen up. Here we go. This is Nature's Secret

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Service, the podcast that puts you in the room

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with the men and women of wildlife law enforcement.

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I'm your host, Ed Newcomer. And this is the first

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episode of season three, which as I've told everybody

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is completely devoted to wolf reintroduction.

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and the many law enforcement cases that have

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resulted around the protection of wolves in the

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Western United States. I thought today it would

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be best to start season three with an interview

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with Rick McIntyre. Rick is probably one of the

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best known wolf ecologists, observers in the

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world. He's written many books about wolves and

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he was nice enough to Invite me to his home in

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Montana to record this very first episode of

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season three. Rick McIntyre, thank you so much

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for being on the show. I appreciate it. You welcome

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that. And you can see the cabin here is a little

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on the motto side. It's I'm not one of those

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billionaires that moved to Montana. I absolutely

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love it. It's honestly we in some of your books.

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you have referenced your cabin here in Montana.

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And this is exactly how I picture it, which is

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perfect. I would I would love to switch places

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with you, honestly. Thank you. And, you know,

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let me just say as an introduction, one of the

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things that really struck me, Rick, is that in

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one of your books, Jane Goodall introduced actually

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does a what do they call that an introduction

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for you in one of your books? And she described

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you as the ultimate wolf guru. And I have to

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say, that's high praise from a woman who basically

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changed the way we look at animal behavior and

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animal observations. That's pretty neat. Yes.

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And to tell the truth, I don't even know what

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to put into words for that. I never really expected

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that. And Yeah, you just totally blew me away.

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I mean, that's the person I respect most in the

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world. So what can I say? I'm very thankful,

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very humbled by it. And it says a lot about you

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and your reputation in the, you know, biology

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community, the community of biologists who are

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interested not just in wolves, but in, you know,

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animal conservation, wildlife conservation all

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over the world. Thank you. Now, you know, the

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reason that I If this will interest you, last

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summer, the reason I came up with the idea to

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do an entire season dedicated to wolves last

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summer, my niece and I, we visited Yellowstone

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National Park. And on the way here, we drove.

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We listened to the book you wrote about wolf

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eight and we had it on audiobook and we listened

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to it the whole time. And at some point, while

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we were in the park looking for wolves ourselves,

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we just. I said, you know, I should do a whole

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episode about wolves. And I said to my niece,

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I said, I wonder if I could get Rick McIntyre

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to be on the show. So this is a this is a big

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deal for me. I'm a little starstruck, but I'm

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really glad to have you here. Tell us a little

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bit about how you got into watching wolves and

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documenting what wolves do. Where did you get

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your first experience with that? Well, I started

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by saying I have very different different background.

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Then people like Dave Meads, Doug Smith, Mike

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Phillips, etc. I grew up in a rural part of Massachusetts,

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so I was outside all the time, fishing, watching

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animals, etc. And I was very influenced by Thoreau's

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book Walden. I lived just down the road from

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Walden Pond. I think I read that maybe when I

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was a junior in high school. And prior to that,

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I really didn't have much of an idea what to

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do for colleges, what major, what career. And

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that really helped me. And I didn't really know

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that much about what different majors there were

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in state colleges. I was interested in going

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to what now is called University of Massachusetts

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Amherst. But they did have a forestry major,

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and that seemed to be maybe the closest to what

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Thoreau was doing. He wrote a lot about trees,

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just maybe less about wildlife. There's probably

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a lot of things that have been shot and killed

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already there. So I was a major in forestry.

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And then I was very lucky for three summers,

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starting after my freshman year, I worked for

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the US Forest Service on the White Mountain National

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Forest in neighboring New Hampshire. So that's,

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I guess, where my outdoor resource management

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connected career began. And I'm still not sure

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how this happened. And in a way, it's not quite

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logical. But I got an offer to go to Alaska at

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Denali. And that was my first park service naturalist

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job. By that time, I'd already worked in some

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remote areas. The guy in charge, Bill Truesdell,

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the chief naturalist, he'd already asked me,

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do you mind working in remote areas and living

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in remote areas? And I said, no, please let me

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do that. And he said, well, we have this visitor

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center. It's 66 miles out. It's my Olsen visitor

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center. There's quarters in the basement. One

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naturalist is there and one maintenance worker.

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Would that work for you? Yeah, sign me up for

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that. Nice. So right away, even though I was

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a new guy, there was a big turnover that year,

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even though I was a new guy, I was in this primo

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position. And that was the first summer that

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I saw wolves. And you were working there as a

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naturalist. Yeah. So was your encounter with

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wolves there just, you know, coincidental with

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you being a naturalist or was part of your job

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associated with the wolves? Well, let's see.

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At that time, 1976, wolves were pretty hard to

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see. Whereas you pretty much could see grizzlies

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every day, moose, scaraboo, doll sheep every

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day. So no offense to any of those animals. I

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wouldn't want to give offense to a grizzly bear.

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Definitely not. Yeah, wolves were in a whole

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different category. And so I remember I was in

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the visitor center in my ranger uniform and there

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was a report of two wolves down the road like

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30 miles. And it happened to be a period in the

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afternoon where they didn't need me to be there.

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You may know in the Park Service we have something

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called roving interpretation. Right. So that's

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when you're away from the visitor center, the

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campground, whatever. You go out to where the

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people are. And you're kind of like a street

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preacher where you say, folks, come on over here

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and we're going to do a talk on bears or whatever.

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Right. So it is valid to go to where the people

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are. So anyway, I got out there just in time

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to get a glimpse of two wolves that were trying

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to get a moose calf. It was maybe only a few

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minutes, but I got to see wolves. And that was

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it for that year. Wow. You know, I ended up being

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there for 15 seasons. Right. And You may or may

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not be familiar with Gordon Haber. He was an

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independent wolf researcher back then. And so

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I got to know him. He gave me some tips on where

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to look. I got to know Dave Meach. He was considered

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the top wolf biologist in the world. And so over

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the years that I worked there, I gradually learned

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how to... do better at finding wolves. This might

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be a good place to talk about kind of the history

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of wolves in the U .S. and kind of where we were

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at that time, 1976, mid -70s. You were up in

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Denali in Alaska. There were wolves there. There

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still are wolves up there. But in the lower 48

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states, can you just kind of describe the situation

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that wolves were in in the 70s and how they got

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there just briefly? Yeah, I actually did a lot

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of research on that in later years for some books

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that I was writing. When Europeans first came

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to North America, whales were a very common animal.

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And as Europeans settled, starting with the East

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Coast, I came across a reference that in, I think

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it was in the 1600s, what is now New York City.

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The Dutch government, they controlled New York

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at that time, and the citizens were so worried

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about having wolves on Manhattan Island that

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they offered to pay you gold coins for every

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wolf that you killed in New York City. Bounty

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in New York City on wolves. So if they had wolves

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on Manhattan Island, there were wolves everywhere.

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There were wolves everywhere. Yeah. I think it's

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fair to say by that time, certainly English people

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and most other folks from European countries,

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they couldn't conceive of a more backward place

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to civilize a place that still had wolves, whereas

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they had already gotten rid of them. Yeah, what

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you're describing is really like the very earliest

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stages of European settlers' war on wolves. And

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once we became a country in the United States,

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That really became U .S. policy in the western

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United States to destroy predators in general.

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So to jump from Manhattan to places like Yellowstone

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is not that much of a jump. So both in Denali

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here, all the major national parks that originally

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had wolf populations, even the National Park

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Rangers, felt that the right thing to do was

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to kill them off. Now, if you could go back and

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interview those Rangers, they wouldn't be able

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to understand. Well, why would you object to

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that? Right. Yeah. So I think the way to explain

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it is to them, their job was to protect the quote

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unquote good animals. Right. The animals that

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people. could make use of, could eat them, could

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use their pelts, etc. Even though yellowstone

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hunting was prohibited, they still had the sense

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we need to protect all these ungulates, these

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plantain animals. And so there was a big problem

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with poachers coming in at that time, particularly

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killing bison because they could get a ton of

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money for a bison head and skull and everything.

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So it was the Wild West back then in Yellowstone,

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and those were extremely dangerous guys. So the

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Rangers back then were big, big, big heroes that

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that should be at the Yellowstone show. Not that

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I'm telling you, you know, it's funny you say

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that because on previous episodes of my podcast,

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we have talked about the earliest. law enforcement

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officers in the U .S. for wildlife. And it was

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a super dangerous job. And a lot of them got

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killed and gotten shootouts. And the wildlife,

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as you talk about the good animals, there, you

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know, around the turn of the century, 1900, there

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were there was a huge market for them for restaurants

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in the East Coast, you know, where market animals

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from elk and deer and bison and ducks and geese

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would end up. commercialized and it was causing

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widespread, you know, destruction of wildlife.

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Yeah. So yeah, you're right. I mean, the war

00:13:58.659 --> 00:14:00.879
on predators was really to protect some of those

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interests. But it was it was pretty pervasive.

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When was the last wolf in Yellowstone eliminated?

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To get here, you likely drove past the spot.

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Do you remember Soda Butte Cone in Lamar Valley?

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The story, as we understand it, is in 1926. the

00:14:19.179 --> 00:14:21.720
local rangers that were stationed in that valley.

00:14:24.500 --> 00:14:26.820
I don't know if they deliberately shot a bison

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to lure the wolves in or if it died on its own,

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but they surrounded it with steel wolf traps.

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Whatever day it was, they came out two wolves

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were trapped. They were shot and killed. And

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as far as we know, that was it. 1926 was the

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last. One of the great things for us that you

00:14:47.000 --> 00:14:51.679
know that background is we oftentimes see walls

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very close to that rock foam, that geothermal

00:14:56.419 --> 00:14:59.580
formation, and that would be the Junction Butte

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Pack. And for many years, the Crystal Creek Pack

00:15:05.000 --> 00:15:07.039
lived there, then the Jewett Peak Pack, some

00:15:07.039 --> 00:15:11.080
of our most famous packs, most famous walls.

00:15:11.759 --> 00:15:13.620
So, of course, none of those wolves know any

00:15:13.620 --> 00:15:16.799
of that history, but for us, it's really something.

00:15:17.559 --> 00:15:19.039
What's your understanding? Yeah, you know, I

00:15:19.039 --> 00:15:22.919
think 1926 is kind of it's certain. That's when

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we think wolves disappeared from Yellowstone.

00:15:25.440 --> 00:15:27.940
But, you know, it's within 10 or 15 years of

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that either way that pretty much wolves were

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extirpated from the entire Western U .S. with

00:15:33.019 --> 00:15:35.419
the exception of, you know, small pocket and

00:15:35.419 --> 00:15:38.470
Great Lakes area. What what's your understanding

00:15:38.470 --> 00:15:40.809
of what happened in Yellowstone Park once wolves

00:15:40.809 --> 00:15:47.029
were eliminated? Well, one thing for sure was

00:15:47.029 --> 00:15:50.789
that the elk population exploded in numbers,

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right? And it's hard to believe this now. And

00:15:58.309 --> 00:16:06.230
because it seems such a strange thing, but. When

00:16:06.230 --> 00:16:12.529
I started in here in 94, there was an older guy,

00:16:12.649 --> 00:16:15.850
Ranger, who had retired and he had worked in

00:16:15.850 --> 00:16:18.529
Yellowstone when he was younger. And he said,

00:16:18.850 --> 00:16:21.110
I guess it was back in the 60s, he was issued

00:16:21.110 --> 00:16:24.990
a rifle and was told, hey, whenever you have

00:16:24.990 --> 00:16:29.500
time, especially in the winter. just pull up

00:16:29.500 --> 00:16:32.000
along the side of the road and shoot and kill

00:16:32.000 --> 00:16:35.700
as many elk as you can. Wow. That was their program

00:16:35.700 --> 00:16:39.519
to alleviate what they acknowledge was an overpopulation

00:16:39.519 --> 00:16:44.120
of elk. And what I mean by that is and you're

00:16:44.120 --> 00:16:46.279
probably familiar with this. They were doing

00:16:46.279 --> 00:16:51.879
a lot of damage to edible species such as aspen

00:16:51.879 --> 00:16:55.340
and willow. Right. And in my early years, I would

00:16:55.340 --> 00:16:59.820
take people on nature walks to a site where some

00:16:59.820 --> 00:17:03.840
of the first walls were released in 95, the Crystal

00:17:03.840 --> 00:17:06.779
Creek pack. And literally every one of those

00:17:06.779 --> 00:17:08.819
shoots had been browsed to death. Every one of

00:17:08.819 --> 00:17:12.119
them. Interesting. And aspens don't live long.

00:17:12.559 --> 00:17:14.740
And so we're getting pretty close to the point

00:17:14.740 --> 00:17:19.680
where those elderly trees were dying. And if

00:17:19.680 --> 00:17:22.299
enough of them died, that's it. Period. There's

00:17:22.299 --> 00:17:28.859
no more aspens, at least in that place. So Then

00:17:28.859 --> 00:17:31.680
within a few years, I would continue to either

00:17:31.680 --> 00:17:34.980
hike up there on my own or take people there.

00:17:35.380 --> 00:17:38.819
And there was just a dramatic transformation

00:17:38.819 --> 00:17:44.000
that now those chutes were surviving. And the

00:17:44.000 --> 00:17:49.579
last few times that I went up there, what I would

00:17:49.579 --> 00:17:52.940
have called chutes 10, 15 years ago, they're

00:17:52.940 --> 00:17:58.940
20, 25 feet tall. the growth is so dense, you

00:17:58.940 --> 00:18:01.460
can hardly walk through them. It's like a bamboo

00:18:01.460 --> 00:18:09.420
forest. And so aspen is a great food for all

00:18:09.420 --> 00:18:12.200
plant -eating species and of course good for

00:18:12.200 --> 00:18:14.839
beaver as well. That was one of the things that

00:18:14.839 --> 00:18:17.000
really struck me as I was kind of reading about

00:18:17.000 --> 00:18:20.539
the history of wolves here in that, you know,

00:18:20.660 --> 00:18:23.660
I think one of the unintended consequences of

00:18:23.660 --> 00:18:26.539
the wolves coming and causing the elk to move

00:18:26.539 --> 00:18:29.400
brings the aspen back. Nobody expected beavers

00:18:29.400 --> 00:18:32.640
to spontaneously return to the park. They weren't

00:18:32.640 --> 00:18:34.640
released or anything. They just showed up on

00:18:34.640 --> 00:18:36.700
their own, which is pretty neat. Well, you think

00:18:36.700 --> 00:18:40.960
if you're a beaver and you're smarter than the

00:18:40.960 --> 00:18:43.720
average beaver, that's referenced if you know

00:18:43.720 --> 00:18:49.119
who a yogi bear. Anyway, yeah, it's just an amazing

00:18:49.119 --> 00:18:54.309
story, conservation story that And, you know,

00:18:54.309 --> 00:18:58.230
in the big picture, just an example that we're

00:18:58.230 --> 00:19:01.289
slowly moving forward, we're slowly advancing

00:19:01.289 --> 00:19:04.950
in conservation and understanding how wild things

00:19:04.950 --> 00:19:08.670
work. Because I'm sure if you interviewed park

00:19:08.670 --> 00:19:12.130
rangers back in the 20s, you know, everyone would

00:19:12.130 --> 00:19:13.869
have agreed, yeah, the right thing to do is let's

00:19:13.869 --> 00:19:15.970
get rid of all these wolves as fast as we can

00:19:15.970 --> 00:19:19.440
and then we'll have more elk. Right. What could

00:19:19.440 --> 00:19:22.099
be wrong with that? Right. More out the better

00:19:22.099 --> 00:19:25.940
for everyone. By the way, there's this great

00:19:25.940 --> 00:19:29.480
story I found in my research. I think this was

00:19:29.480 --> 00:19:34.019
in the late 30s. The guy that was the chief naturalist

00:19:34.019 --> 00:19:39.119
at the time, I don't recall his name. He maybe

00:19:39.119 --> 00:19:41.519
had a bit of a better science background than

00:19:41.519 --> 00:19:44.680
most of the other Rangers and naturalists. And.

00:19:45.449 --> 00:19:48.430
After work, he would just walk around Mammoth,

00:19:48.430 --> 00:19:51.990
just stroll around. And there came a time where

00:19:51.990 --> 00:19:56.950
he began to notice things. It started with just

00:19:56.950 --> 00:20:01.269
a few elk that seemed to be sick, that seemed

00:20:01.269 --> 00:20:06.930
to be in decline and then dying. And after a

00:20:06.930 --> 00:20:09.529
while, there were more elk that went through

00:20:09.529 --> 00:20:13.490
that and then more elk and more elk. And it was

00:20:13.490 --> 00:20:15.569
some type of infectious disease. I'm not sure

00:20:15.569 --> 00:20:18.990
if they knew what it was. Interesting. So they

00:20:18.990 --> 00:20:21.029
were starting to see the ramifications of the

00:20:21.029 --> 00:20:23.970
overpopulation. Well, here's the early as the

00:20:23.970 --> 00:20:29.309
30s. Here's the point of the story. He did. And

00:20:29.309 --> 00:20:31.970
there was some type of a science conference that

00:20:31.970 --> 00:20:34.490
came up and it was based in Yellowstone. And

00:20:34.490 --> 00:20:37.049
so naturalists and rangers and superintendents

00:20:37.049 --> 00:20:39.670
from all over the country came here and he was

00:20:39.670 --> 00:20:42.329
one of the scheduled speakers. And everything

00:20:42.329 --> 00:20:48.529
went well until he got off to speed. And he essentially

00:20:48.529 --> 00:20:52.329
said, you know, I've been thinking about this.

00:20:52.750 --> 00:20:55.730
And he talked about how long he'd been in Yellowstone

00:20:55.730 --> 00:20:58.190
and talked about his life in the Mammoth area.

00:20:58.230 --> 00:21:00.869
Talked about strolling around in the evening,

00:21:00.890 --> 00:21:05.130
seeing elk that had some type of a disease that

00:21:05.130 --> 00:21:08.609
he now realized was contagious and how many elk

00:21:08.609 --> 00:21:12.619
had died from that contagious disease. And this

00:21:12.619 --> 00:21:17.359
was the point of his talk that just blew the

00:21:17.359 --> 00:21:21.980
room apart. He said, you know, maybe, maybe if

00:21:21.980 --> 00:21:25.039
we hadn't killed off all the wolves, those sick

00:21:25.039 --> 00:21:28.640
elk would have been an easy prey to the wolves.

00:21:29.240 --> 00:21:32.359
And if the wolves killed most of those initial

00:21:32.359 --> 00:21:36.799
sick elk, maybe then that infection wouldn't

00:21:36.799 --> 00:21:41.549
have spread. But at that time, What he said was

00:21:41.549 --> 00:21:47.069
so...athema, is that the word? Yeah, right. That

00:21:47.069 --> 00:21:49.029
shocked everybody. He literally had to resign

00:21:49.029 --> 00:21:51.490
and leave. Wow. Yeah, they didn't want to hear

00:21:51.490 --> 00:21:54.490
that. Wow. So they had really bought into, hey,

00:21:54.630 --> 00:21:59.769
let's, you know, we got to keep on. We had to

00:21:59.769 --> 00:22:02.250
kill the walls. Moral is better. After that,

00:22:02.710 --> 00:22:05.569
yeah. That was the 30s, you said? That was the

00:22:05.569 --> 00:22:10.019
late 30s, yeah. That's in the anthology I did,

00:22:10.200 --> 00:22:13.420
War Against the Wolf, with the guy's name. One

00:22:13.420 --> 00:22:15.519
of your other books, too, referenced that, you

00:22:15.519 --> 00:22:20.599
know, around mid 1940s Aldo Leopold started to

00:22:20.599 --> 00:22:22.539
recommend bringing wolves back to Yellowstone.

00:22:22.740 --> 00:22:24.500
So I think you mentioned it was in your book.

00:22:24.539 --> 00:22:28.099
You mentioned it was 1946 was when Aldo Leopold

00:22:28.099 --> 00:22:30.680
first proposed it, I think. Yes. And that was

00:22:30.680 --> 00:22:34.019
in a review of a wolf book that US Fish and Wildlife

00:22:34.019 --> 00:22:36.609
guy had written. I forget the name of that. Yeah,

00:22:36.609 --> 00:22:40.569
let's talk about Leopold for a moment. So yes,

00:22:40.569 --> 00:22:42.890
he essentially said, you know, maybe we should

00:22:42.890 --> 00:22:45.549
consider bringing Will's back to Yellowstone.

00:22:45.789 --> 00:22:48.049
I don't know that he used the word reintroduction,

00:22:48.170 --> 00:22:52.009
but he came up with the idea and he was very

00:22:52.009 --> 00:22:55.230
highly respected. So this was maybe eight, ten

00:22:55.230 --> 00:22:58.289
years after the previous story where the guy

00:22:58.289 --> 00:23:01.470
was ridiculed. So he was very respected. And

00:23:01.470 --> 00:23:07.089
that, let's just say with a flame that It took

00:23:07.089 --> 00:23:10.230
some time, but it eventually caught on. Yeah,

00:23:10.230 --> 00:23:13.250
and that's a good place to, I think, jump forward

00:23:13.250 --> 00:23:17.769
a little bit in our story here in that I think

00:23:17.769 --> 00:23:20.650
most of my listeners will know that in 1995,

00:23:20.829 --> 00:23:22.670
the U .S. Fish and Wildlife Service and the Park

00:23:22.670 --> 00:23:25.829
Service collaborated to reintroduce wolves to

00:23:25.829 --> 00:23:28.430
Yellowstone finally. I want to use that 50 years

00:23:28.430 --> 00:23:34.299
after. Aldo Leopold proposed it again. And interestingly,

00:23:34.500 --> 00:23:36.339
one of the things I loved about reading your

00:23:36.339 --> 00:23:38.220
books is you kind of, I don't know if you remember

00:23:38.220 --> 00:23:40.519
this because you've written so many books, but

00:23:40.519 --> 00:23:43.000
you actually tell the story of how Aldo Leopold,

00:23:43.019 --> 00:23:46.160
as a young ranger, actually killed a wolf in

00:23:46.160 --> 00:23:49.940
New Mexico, I believe, and lived to regret it.

00:23:50.599 --> 00:23:54.799
Yes, he famously said as he walked up to the

00:23:54.799 --> 00:23:58.240
dying wolf, he saw a bright It's very emotional

00:23:58.240 --> 00:24:00.559
to tell the story. It's emotional to read it.

00:24:00.559 --> 00:24:03.019
Yeah. In the eyes of the wolf and then it died.

00:24:03.079 --> 00:24:07.500
Yeah. And that's in his essay, Thinking Like

00:24:07.500 --> 00:24:10.680
a Mountain. Right. And he was I'm sure you know,

00:24:10.819 --> 00:24:14.640
a wildlife professor. And he was very, very influential.

00:24:15.220 --> 00:24:20.609
And so he played a big, big role in. starting

00:24:20.609 --> 00:24:24.029
to turn the tide on acceptance of wolves and

00:24:24.029 --> 00:24:27.710
to see their value. But in that original essay,

00:24:29.170 --> 00:24:33.210
in a way that anyone could understand it, not

00:24:33.210 --> 00:24:37.869
in an academic way, he talked about killing off

00:24:37.869 --> 00:24:40.309
all the wolves mean we're going to have a lot

00:24:40.309 --> 00:24:43.430
more deer, and deer in that particular, I think

00:24:43.430 --> 00:24:48.819
it was part of Arizona, and having Too many deer

00:24:48.819 --> 00:24:51.539
is a bad thing, right? And he talked about the

00:24:51.539 --> 00:24:53.779
damage that they did to eating too much of the

00:24:53.779 --> 00:24:55.859
vegetation like we've been talking about with

00:24:55.859 --> 00:24:59.119
the elk here So he could really see the big picture

00:24:59.119 --> 00:25:01.680
and I think that's a really good way to phrase

00:25:01.680 --> 00:25:06.299
this that the story about the Park Service guy

00:25:06.299 --> 00:25:09.460
here that had to quit because all of his peers

00:25:09.460 --> 00:25:12.299
could not see the big picture. They were not

00:25:12.299 --> 00:25:14.400
ready to see the big picture. Yeah, not ready.

00:25:14.859 --> 00:25:17.299
Yes. So he was ahead of his time by too many

00:25:17.299 --> 00:25:24.220
years. And but I like to tell that story because

00:25:24.220 --> 00:25:27.940
to give him credit for that. Absolutely. Yeah,

00:25:27.940 --> 00:25:31.140
for sure. So this is this is actually good because

00:25:31.140 --> 00:25:33.980
now now let's jump ahead to 1995. You've been

00:25:33.980 --> 00:25:37.519
working seasonally in Denali for 15 years now

00:25:37.519 --> 00:25:40.039
and have had a lot of experience observing wolves

00:25:40.039 --> 00:25:43.240
up there. How is it you came to Yellowstone National

00:25:43.240 --> 00:25:46.779
Park in mid 90s? I was well aware that they were

00:25:46.779 --> 00:25:52.339
looking at bringing wolves back. Back then, my

00:25:52.339 --> 00:25:55.680
winter job was on the Rio Grande River at Big

00:25:55.680 --> 00:26:01.279
Bend National Park. And so I called up here and

00:26:01.279 --> 00:26:04.269
I had always were, except for being a firefighter

00:26:04.269 --> 00:26:07.009
my first year, my park service jobs were always

00:26:07.009 --> 00:26:11.569
as a seasonal naturalist. So I called the chief

00:26:11.569 --> 00:26:13.829
naturalist office here, ended up speaking to

00:26:13.829 --> 00:26:16.930
the assistant chief naturalist Tom Tankersley.

00:26:17.609 --> 00:26:23.619
And if you're a park service person, it's easy

00:26:23.619 --> 00:26:25.900
to talk to other parks service person, you know,

00:26:26.059 --> 00:26:28.240
you guys. Yeah, Fish and Wildlife is the same.

00:26:28.420 --> 00:26:31.880
Yeah, we're all the same. Yeah, exactly. You

00:26:31.880 --> 00:26:34.220
speak the same language. You kind of know. Yeah.

00:26:34.220 --> 00:26:37.240
Yeah. And so, you know, right away, he understood

00:26:37.240 --> 00:26:43.000
that I had 16 seasons worth of experience being

00:26:43.000 --> 00:26:47.099
around wolves. Yeah. And all of those jobs were

00:26:47.099 --> 00:26:49.779
essentially doing public programs, working with

00:26:49.779 --> 00:26:53.690
the public. being a naturalist, et cetera. And

00:26:53.690 --> 00:26:59.670
I had reinstatement status due to a brief permanent

00:26:59.670 --> 00:27:05.170
federal job with the Forest Service. So he was

00:27:05.170 --> 00:27:08.869
in a position where, because of that, he could

00:27:08.869 --> 00:27:11.049
just hire me right off the bat. He didn't have

00:27:11.049 --> 00:27:16.490
to check the register. And so we agreed that,

00:27:16.690 --> 00:27:20.250
yes, he would bring me on for the summer of 94.

00:27:20.730 --> 00:27:24.589
I would be called the wolf interpreter. And my

00:27:24.589 --> 00:27:28.109
job would be everything I did would be on walls.

00:27:28.390 --> 00:27:32.309
The big campfire programs with 400 people, nature

00:27:32.309 --> 00:27:34.750
walks, you know, everything all about walls.

00:27:35.329 --> 00:27:39.369
And it was an easy thing for me to to figure

00:27:39.369 --> 00:27:42.130
out, well, here's how I'm going to do that. It's

00:27:42.130 --> 00:27:44.210
the most natural thing in the world for me to

00:27:44.210 --> 00:27:46.529
spend my whole summer every day in my ranger

00:27:46.529 --> 00:27:50.650
uniform, talking to people and explaining the

00:27:50.650 --> 00:27:53.230
Wolf Introduction. And then on January 12th of

00:27:53.230 --> 00:27:58.049
95, I wasn't working in the winters back then,

00:27:58.990 --> 00:28:04.609
but a stock trailer arrived in Yellowstone. It

00:28:04.609 --> 00:28:06.309
stopped just down the road from where we are

00:28:06.309 --> 00:28:12.529
now. And wolves from two different packs were

00:28:12.529 --> 00:28:15.859
in the trailer. The Crystal Creek pack There

00:28:15.859 --> 00:28:18.420
were four members, the parents, the alpha male,

00:28:18.519 --> 00:28:22.440
the alpha female, and four male pups. And then

00:28:22.440 --> 00:28:26.099
the other three cages had the original members

00:28:26.099 --> 00:28:30.299
of the Rose Creek pack, a mother wolf and her

00:28:30.299 --> 00:28:32.940
daughter, and then an unrelated male, wolf 10.

00:28:34.700 --> 00:28:40.619
And so it was a giant media thing. The press

00:28:40.619 --> 00:28:43.440
people were there. They had a hidden acclamation

00:28:43.440 --> 00:28:45.640
pen. They had death threats against the walls.

00:28:46.039 --> 00:28:48.059
I remember in your book you described that actually

00:28:48.059 --> 00:28:50.380
there had to be armed Park Service Rangers there

00:28:50.380 --> 00:28:52.440
24 hours a day. That's right. And that was in

00:28:52.440 --> 00:28:54.519
the middle of the winter and they were the unsung

00:28:54.519 --> 00:28:58.039
heroes of the operation. Totally. But basically

00:28:58.039 --> 00:29:00.759
they put them in a pen that was maybe about an

00:29:00.759 --> 00:29:10.730
acre with chain link fencing. and then fed them

00:29:10.730 --> 00:29:12.710
a couple of times a week with animals that had

00:29:12.710 --> 00:29:16.309
been hit by cars and run over. So it was initially

00:29:16.309 --> 00:29:19.029
the Crystal Creek pack and then the Rose Creek

00:29:19.029 --> 00:29:22.450
pack and then a third pack later arrived, what

00:29:22.450 --> 00:29:26.450
became known as the Soda Butte pack. And their

00:29:26.450 --> 00:29:31.269
pen was located, oh boy, maybe half a mile from

00:29:31.269 --> 00:29:34.210
where the last wolves were killed, that Soda

00:29:34.210 --> 00:29:37.490
Butte Cone area I talked about. We had this huge

00:29:37.490 --> 00:29:40.650
overpopulation of elk, I think over 20 ,000.

00:29:40.650 --> 00:29:44.029
Right. Mostly in that same northern area. So

00:29:44.029 --> 00:29:46.569
you think of wolves that specialize in hunting

00:29:46.569 --> 00:29:49.509
elk. They're looking through the chain link fencing

00:29:49.509 --> 00:29:52.250
every day for two months, and they're thinking

00:29:52.250 --> 00:29:54.950
one, two, three, four. Dinner, dinner, dinner.

00:29:55.170 --> 00:29:57.630
Ten thousand and one, ten thousand and two, twenty

00:29:57.630 --> 00:30:00.089
thousand and one. And they're thinking, you know,

00:30:00.089 --> 00:30:02.150
maybe this isn't such a bad deal after all. If

00:30:02.150 --> 00:30:03.789
we can just get out of here. We can get out of

00:30:03.789 --> 00:30:06.279
here. Yeah. I did make a note of this from from

00:30:06.279 --> 00:30:09.579
one of your books, you said that in 1995, there

00:30:09.579 --> 00:30:12.759
were about 20 ,000 elk in the park. And I think

00:30:12.759 --> 00:30:16.539
the accepted level for what they call carrying

00:30:16.539 --> 00:30:20.960
capacity is only 5 ,000. What is carrying capacity?

00:30:20.980 --> 00:30:24.299
What does that mean? Well, it would be, let's

00:30:24.299 --> 00:30:26.779
say if you're a farmer or rancher and you have

00:30:26.779 --> 00:30:31.579
a certain pasture or an area that is fenced off,

00:30:32.400 --> 00:30:38.250
you have to figure out Well, there's enough grass

00:30:38.250 --> 00:30:41.670
to feed on for I'll make up some numbers, 10

00:30:41.670 --> 00:30:44.390
cattle or 30 sheep. If you have more, you have

00:30:44.390 --> 00:30:46.569
a problem. Right. They run out of food. Right.

00:30:46.670 --> 00:30:55.190
Yeah. So. It's hard to believe this, but in my

00:30:55.190 --> 00:30:59.369
early years here, I had a retired park ranger

00:30:59.369 --> 00:31:03.210
that kind of volunteered to help me, and he was

00:31:03.210 --> 00:31:07.599
a very wise man. And he had worked in Yellowstone

00:31:07.599 --> 00:31:10.200
several decades earlier in his early career.

00:31:11.039 --> 00:31:15.240
And I totally get it. People would find this

00:31:15.240 --> 00:31:18.220
hard to believe, but it was the truth. He said

00:31:18.220 --> 00:31:21.619
every winter, of course, would issue him a rifle

00:31:21.619 --> 00:31:24.660
and say, whenever you can, you shoot a lot of

00:31:24.660 --> 00:31:28.000
elk. Yeah. We need to reduce the numbers. That

00:31:28.000 --> 00:31:30.599
was their management program. Interesting. Yeah.

00:31:30.640 --> 00:31:34.880
We'll just shoot them. Yeah. It's hard to believe

00:31:34.880 --> 00:31:38.660
that. Yeah. Yeah. And after a while, the public

00:31:38.660 --> 00:31:41.640
really rose up against that. I mean, if you came

00:31:41.640 --> 00:31:44.339
with your family in a range, it pulls up and

00:31:44.339 --> 00:31:47.220
takes the gun and starts blasting away. You know,

00:31:47.279 --> 00:31:49.640
your kid would be crying. Yeah. Daddy, why is

00:31:49.640 --> 00:31:53.960
he killing all those animals? Yeah. And, you

00:31:53.960 --> 00:31:57.539
know, it's so anti. Yeah. And it's funny, too,

00:31:57.539 --> 00:32:01.200
because it's almost like a recognition that there's

00:32:01.200 --> 00:32:03.500
a problem. There's too many of them. Yeah. But

00:32:03.500 --> 00:32:06.299
as you were talking earlier about how they refuse

00:32:06.299 --> 00:32:10.059
to see what, what is the obvious answer staring

00:32:10.059 --> 00:32:12.059
them in the face is returning the environment

00:32:12.059 --> 00:32:16.220
to its natural state. 1995 was a very important

00:32:16.220 --> 00:32:18.880
year for wolves, obviously because of the reintroduction,

00:32:19.039 --> 00:32:21.400
but there's also a very important law enforcement

00:32:21.400 --> 00:32:25.380
case that comes up in 1995. Um, you mentioned

00:32:25.380 --> 00:32:27.720
these packs that were brought down from. from

00:32:27.720 --> 00:32:30.000
Alberta and one of them being the Rose Creek

00:32:30.000 --> 00:32:33.559
pack. And you mentioned a Wolf 10. Can you just

00:32:33.559 --> 00:32:38.960
describe that situation in 95 with Wolf 10, not

00:32:38.960 --> 00:32:40.779
before what happened, what we're going to talk

00:32:40.779 --> 00:32:43.359
about at the very end. But what was the family

00:32:43.359 --> 00:32:47.740
situation with Sheriff 10? Yeah. Yeah, it's quite

00:32:47.740 --> 00:32:53.269
the story. So I think I mentioned that. pack,

00:32:53.289 --> 00:32:56.009
the Rose Creek pack was in the same horse trailer

00:32:56.009 --> 00:33:01.950
as the Crystal Creek wolves. Right. And six in

00:33:01.950 --> 00:33:06.549
the Crystal Creek pack, but only three in Rose

00:33:06.549 --> 00:33:09.410
Creek. And that was the mother wolf number nine

00:33:09.410 --> 00:33:14.569
and her daughter, a pup number seven. And how

00:33:14.569 --> 00:33:17.200
do you number why are wolves numbered? Sometimes

00:33:17.200 --> 00:33:18.680
they're numbered. Sometimes they're not numbered.

00:33:18.759 --> 00:33:21.400
How does that work? Sure. It's pretty simple.

00:33:21.539 --> 00:33:24.519
Any wolf that has a radio caller gets a number.

00:33:24.519 --> 00:33:29.039
Got it. And then but that's only maybe 25, 30

00:33:29.039 --> 00:33:32.640
percent of all the walls. We definitely don't

00:33:32.640 --> 00:33:35.099
want to give them a human type name like Ed.

00:33:35.180 --> 00:33:38.559
Right. No offense. That's OK. We'll give the

00:33:38.559 --> 00:33:40.819
best looking guy the name Ed. OK, that sounds

00:33:40.819 --> 00:33:45.740
good. That sounds good. So, yeah, to be somewhat

00:33:45.740 --> 00:33:49.579
scientific, we would refer to it by something

00:33:49.579 --> 00:33:52.039
about its appearance. So there were two black

00:33:52.039 --> 00:33:54.460
brother walls. One had a big chest blaze. The

00:33:54.460 --> 00:33:57.099
other had a small blaze. So big blaze, small

00:33:57.099 --> 00:33:59.940
blaze. Got it. Et cetera. But then if they got

00:33:59.940 --> 00:34:01.920
a collar, they became a number. That's right.

00:34:02.019 --> 00:34:04.940
Yeah. And it would just be in sequence. We're

00:34:04.940 --> 00:34:08.940
in the. At least the fifteen hundreds now. But

00:34:08.940 --> 00:34:14.199
getting back to Rose Creek, so. We assumed that

00:34:14.199 --> 00:34:17.039
the maid of number nine the mother wolf in the

00:34:17.039 --> 00:34:20.119
Rose Creek pack had been killed in Canada, okay?

00:34:20.739 --> 00:34:22.920
They couldn't find him couldn't catch him if

00:34:22.920 --> 00:34:27.059
he was alive So a single mother with one pup

00:34:27.059 --> 00:34:30.239
not much of a pack right, but they caught a lone

00:34:30.239 --> 00:34:35.880
male a big adult and he was called wolf ten and

00:34:35.880 --> 00:34:38.579
So they thought well, you know, maybe they'll

00:34:38.579 --> 00:34:46.079
like each other so They were in the same horse

00:34:46.079 --> 00:34:50.420
trailer for however many days it took to drive

00:34:50.420 --> 00:34:53.300
them down here. So they would have got the scent

00:34:53.300 --> 00:34:59.300
of each other. There'd be vocalizations. So let's

00:34:59.300 --> 00:35:01.519
say they would have had some awareness of each

00:35:01.519 --> 00:35:04.980
other. And the mother wolf, I mean, this is speculation,

00:35:04.980 --> 00:35:08.079
but, you know, I think it's fair to say she might

00:35:08.079 --> 00:35:11.300
be thinking, gee, I need a guy. And there's a

00:35:11.300 --> 00:35:14.099
guy here. He doesn't seem to have a girlfriend.

00:35:15.019 --> 00:35:20.480
And maybe he'd be thinking the same thing. And

00:35:20.480 --> 00:35:26.820
so they put the three of them together in the

00:35:26.820 --> 00:35:30.179
pen at Rose Creek behind the Yellowstone Institute.

00:35:31.199 --> 00:35:33.519
And by the time they were released two months

00:35:33.519 --> 00:35:38.559
later, it was a family. So he was happy to raise

00:35:38.559 --> 00:35:41.159
a stepdaughter, you know, whatever you want to

00:35:41.159 --> 00:35:46.159
call. And we didn't really know for sure at the

00:35:46.159 --> 00:35:48.659
time, but it turned out that she was pregnant

00:35:48.659 --> 00:35:51.840
by the time they left. OK, they would have come

00:35:51.840 --> 00:35:54.559
out of the pen in March. The pups seem to be

00:35:54.559 --> 00:36:00.070
born in April and. I'll just kind of review what

00:36:00.070 --> 00:36:04.710
happened after that somewhat quickly. Unfortunately,

00:36:05.429 --> 00:36:08.369
when they were released, they decided to travel

00:36:08.369 --> 00:36:11.250
east for some reason. Well, as you said, wolves

00:36:11.250 --> 00:36:13.190
don't know where the boundary is to the park,

00:36:13.329 --> 00:36:17.650
right? Yes, unknowingly, they went past the eastern

00:36:17.650 --> 00:36:20.070
border of Yellowstone and they were in a national

00:36:20.070 --> 00:36:22.949
forest there. And by that time, she was very

00:36:22.949 --> 00:36:25.570
pregnant. Just Asian is two months, by the way.

00:36:25.750 --> 00:36:28.829
Oh, is that all? Yeah. And so she dug a den.

00:36:29.610 --> 00:36:33.170
She was getting ready to have her pups and he

00:36:33.170 --> 00:36:36.869
was fulfilling his responsibility. He was the

00:36:36.869 --> 00:36:39.630
only member of the pack that was free to go on

00:36:39.630 --> 00:36:45.570
a hunt. And so he would leave the den area to

00:36:45.570 --> 00:36:47.949
try to kill an elk or deer and bring back food.

00:36:48.150 --> 00:36:51.889
She was indisposed. She couldn't leave. And then

00:36:51.889 --> 00:36:53.869
once the pups were born, she had eight pups,

00:36:53.889 --> 00:36:57.280
the first. Wolfpups born here since the 20s.

00:36:57.480 --> 00:36:59.460
So it should have been a time of, well, it was

00:36:59.460 --> 00:37:02.780
a time of great celebration and then he was killed.

00:37:03.159 --> 00:37:05.539
Yeah, everybody. So everybody's bite in the Wolf

00:37:05.539 --> 00:37:07.300
program is biting their fingernails because they

00:37:07.300 --> 00:37:09.739
know she's outside the park and he's out here

00:37:09.739 --> 00:37:14.460
because they're ready. Yes. Right. Yes. So episode

00:37:14.460 --> 00:37:17.480
in episode two of season three. We are actually

00:37:17.480 --> 00:37:19.440
going to talk to the special agent with the US

00:37:19.440 --> 00:37:21.699
Fish and Wildlife Service, who did the very first

00:37:21.699 --> 00:37:24.480
wolf poaching investigation. And it was the investigation

00:37:24.480 --> 00:37:28.380
of 10's killing. So it was kind of a tragic blow

00:37:28.380 --> 00:37:30.559
to the wolf reintroduction program, because now

00:37:30.559 --> 00:37:33.599
you've got this new pack with brand new pups,

00:37:33.599 --> 00:37:38.360
and you lose the alpha male. And how did they

00:37:38.360 --> 00:37:40.719
know? This is one thing I think is really interesting

00:37:40.719 --> 00:37:43.360
about radio collars. How did they know that wolf

00:37:43.360 --> 00:37:48.730
10 had been killed? Sure. The transmitter is

00:37:48.730 --> 00:37:52.809
programmed with a motion detector that if there's

00:37:52.809 --> 00:37:55.570
no motion after a certain number of hours hours

00:37:55.570 --> 00:38:00.090
the beats For a minute, I think it doubles. So

00:38:00.090 --> 00:38:02.590
instead of beep beep beep, it's beep beep beep

00:38:02.590 --> 00:38:10.309
beep and So We do regular flights Oftentimes

00:38:10.309 --> 00:38:13.489
twice a week just to check on the walls and I

00:38:13.489 --> 00:38:16.150
don't recall the details, but I imagine that

00:38:16.800 --> 00:38:19.239
One of the Wolf biologists was doing a flight

00:38:19.239 --> 00:38:21.900
and got the mortality signal and that set up

00:38:21.900 --> 00:38:25.300
a whole gigantic chain of events which we can

00:38:25.300 --> 00:38:32.099
get into. The guy cut off the collar and threw

00:38:32.099 --> 00:38:35.019
it in a creek thinking that will screw up the

00:38:35.019 --> 00:38:37.539
electronics, but it didn't. Tell us what happens

00:38:37.539 --> 00:38:40.980
after Wolf 10 gets this mortality signal. What

00:38:40.980 --> 00:38:46.309
was the next chain of events? from our perspective,

00:38:46.530 --> 00:38:48.670
we needed to rescue the mother in the parks.

00:38:49.750 --> 00:38:52.469
And so that's where Mike Phillips, who was the

00:38:52.469 --> 00:38:55.210
leader of the Wolf Project at the time, and then

00:38:55.210 --> 00:38:58.130
Doug Smith, and then other people came into play.

00:38:58.630 --> 00:39:01.469
So they went over to that area just outside the

00:39:01.469 --> 00:39:03.989
park with the telemetry equipment, hoping to

00:39:03.989 --> 00:39:07.030
get number eight's, number nine's signal. But

00:39:07.030 --> 00:39:11.269
if she was in the den, that would probably block

00:39:11.269 --> 00:39:13.289
you getting it. You'd have to be very close to

00:39:13.289 --> 00:39:16.489
get it. But just in the interest of time, let's

00:39:16.489 --> 00:39:19.429
just jump to the point where they were able to

00:39:19.429 --> 00:39:23.070
find the den. Carter Niemeyer was a player in

00:39:23.070 --> 00:39:26.210
that, too, if you know him. I do, yeah. So Doug

00:39:26.210 --> 00:39:28.949
Smith happened to be the guy because he's long

00:39:28.949 --> 00:39:31.010
and lanky. He reached in, pulled him out one

00:39:31.010 --> 00:39:33.869
at a time. There was one last pub. He just barely

00:39:33.869 --> 00:39:37.030
got that guy. So they brought him back into the

00:39:37.030 --> 00:39:40.280
park and they put him back. in the Rose Creek

00:39:40.280 --> 00:39:43.000
pen, which is behind the Yellowstone Institute.

00:39:44.400 --> 00:39:47.199
So it was the mother and eight pups. What happened

00:39:47.199 --> 00:39:50.179
to the when the Rose Creek pack was first released

00:39:50.179 --> 00:39:54.980
from its, it's what's it called? The acclamation.

00:39:55.420 --> 00:39:58.079
She had a daughter. What happened to that dog?

00:39:58.260 --> 00:40:00.480
Oh, yeah, that was number seven. She left and

00:40:00.480 --> 00:40:04.280
paired off with. One of the male yearlings from

00:40:04.280 --> 00:40:06.639
Crystal Creek. Okay. And I'm glad you mentioned

00:40:06.639 --> 00:40:09.639
it because then that became the Leopold pack.

00:40:09.920 --> 00:40:14.340
So Aldo Leopold, you know, his statement in the

00:40:14.340 --> 00:40:16.559
40s, maybe we should bring walls back. That was

00:40:16.559 --> 00:40:18.139
to honor him. That was to honor him. Yeah. Okay.

00:40:18.320 --> 00:40:20.340
So Nine's daughter that she arrived with from

00:40:20.340 --> 00:40:22.840
Canada broke off, formed her own pack. Yeah.

00:40:23.039 --> 00:40:26.780
And then Ten and Nine mated and they had this

00:40:26.780 --> 00:40:29.780
new litter of eight that was... Thank goodness

00:40:29.780 --> 00:40:37.739
found and recovered. So we we were very worried

00:40:37.739 --> 00:40:42.780
that a single mother with a extremely hungry

00:40:42.780 --> 00:40:46.960
pups, it's going to be really hard for her to

00:40:46.960 --> 00:40:51.219
protect them, to train them, and then by yourself,

00:40:51.539 --> 00:40:55.800
dump them, go on a hunt and just one wolf trying

00:40:55.800 --> 00:41:00.250
to kill a bison or an elk. It didn't look too

00:41:00.250 --> 00:41:04.730
good, not very optimistic. And then something

00:41:04.730 --> 00:41:11.250
happened. This is a great story. And I have to

00:41:11.250 --> 00:41:13.750
admit I'm a little biased here because this is

00:41:13.750 --> 00:41:15.929
about Wolf VIII, the main character in my first

00:41:15.929 --> 00:41:19.809
Wolf book, first Yellowstone Wolf book. So he

00:41:19.809 --> 00:41:23.110
was the runt of his litter. And I knew from the

00:41:23.110 --> 00:41:25.469
biologists and the rangers that were involved

00:41:25.469 --> 00:41:28.869
with the when he and his family were in the Crystal

00:41:28.869 --> 00:41:31.409
Creek then that he was bullied and beaten up

00:41:31.409 --> 00:41:33.449
all the time by his three. They were the same

00:41:33.449 --> 00:41:35.650
age that they were bigger and stronger. And so

00:41:35.650 --> 00:41:38.409
he really had a hard time. So he would be the

00:41:38.409 --> 00:41:41.389
little guy in school that, you know, the bullies

00:41:41.389 --> 00:41:44.030
beat up all the time. And so Wolf 8 started out

00:41:44.030 --> 00:41:46.110
in the Crystal Creek. Yes. Yeah. He was one of

00:41:46.110 --> 00:41:48.929
four sons. OK, so they were pups when they arrived.

00:41:49.070 --> 00:41:52.369
Now he's a yearling. Let's say the equivalent

00:41:52.369 --> 00:41:56.400
to a human teenage boy, maybe. 15 years old,

00:41:56.460 --> 00:42:00.059
something like that. But I think it's fair to

00:42:00.059 --> 00:42:02.239
say at that time, you know, if there was any

00:42:02.239 --> 00:42:04.800
wolf that you would have assigned to saying,

00:42:04.840 --> 00:42:07.599
well, he's never going to mount anything, you

00:42:07.599 --> 00:42:11.280
know, maybe some pack will allow him to come

00:42:11.280 --> 00:42:14.159
in and feed. But, you know, nothing more than

00:42:14.159 --> 00:42:19.150
that. You know, it's just a sad story. So as

00:42:19.150 --> 00:42:22.150
far as we know, he had kind of become a lone

00:42:22.150 --> 00:42:25.510
wolf as a, I'll say, a teenager that kept him

00:42:25.510 --> 00:42:27.949
away from his brothers who were the bullies.

00:42:28.510 --> 00:42:33.150
And I had been watching him prior to that, and

00:42:33.150 --> 00:42:35.349
I began to see, you know, there's something about

00:42:35.349 --> 00:42:40.730
this guy that could really change his whole story.

00:42:40.730 --> 00:42:44.010
I saw him stand up to a grizzly bear and get

00:42:44.010 --> 00:42:49.449
away with it. The bear was like five times his

00:42:49.449 --> 00:42:53.230
size and he confronted it and got away with it.

00:42:54.230 --> 00:42:57.929
So to stay away from his brothers, he he just

00:42:57.929 --> 00:43:01.409
wandered around a lot, explored a lot. Probably

00:43:01.409 --> 00:43:04.369
he heard some howling from this new area. He

00:43:04.369 --> 00:43:06.110
didn't know that there are other wolves other

00:43:06.110 --> 00:43:10.670
than his family. So he went up there and that

00:43:10.670 --> 00:43:12.849
his timing was perfect because the family had

00:43:12.849 --> 00:43:15.710
just been released from the pen. So we think

00:43:15.710 --> 00:43:18.880
he got there. And for the first time in his life,

00:43:19.199 --> 00:43:22.800
he saw wolves that were smaller than he was.

00:43:23.539 --> 00:43:27.000
And he didn't know that that was a possibility.

00:43:31.800 --> 00:43:35.400
I'm going to use the word compassion. Empathy

00:43:35.400 --> 00:43:41.429
kicked in and he ran over. dog wants to play

00:43:41.429 --> 00:43:44.090
with a new dog that's meaning they bow down to

00:43:44.090 --> 00:43:45.889
each other that's going to play about. Right.

00:43:45.969 --> 00:43:49.610
We assume he did that, which was, hey, hey, guys,

00:43:49.670 --> 00:43:52.369
let's play. Right. Not aggressive. Yeah. And

00:43:52.369 --> 00:43:54.909
so he played with the pups. He probably didn't

00:43:54.909 --> 00:43:57.309
realize it, but he was being watched by the mother.

00:43:57.530 --> 00:44:02.610
She was desperate. She needed a guy. And to be

00:44:02.610 --> 00:44:06.920
blunt. He wasn't the most likely candidate that

00:44:06.920 --> 00:44:10.480
was applying, but no one else had applied. Yeah.

00:44:10.619 --> 00:44:13.019
Yeah. You know, she wanted one twice his size

00:44:13.019 --> 00:44:17.480
and, you know, twice as old, you know, and he

00:44:17.480 --> 00:44:22.079
wasn't that wolf. Yeah. But he was there. And,

00:44:22.340 --> 00:44:24.400
you know, there's that saying, what is it? Ninety

00:44:24.400 --> 00:44:27.699
percent of success is just showing up. Exactly.

00:44:27.760 --> 00:44:30.780
He showed up. And one thing I didn't know until

00:44:30.780 --> 00:44:34.869
I read your books is Wolf families are matriarchal,

00:44:34.869 --> 00:44:37.789
not patriarchal. Yes. It's the female that's

00:44:37.789 --> 00:44:41.090
kind of in charge anyway. Yes. I tell that to

00:44:41.090 --> 00:44:44.530
all the women I know. Yeah. They all know that

00:44:44.530 --> 00:44:46.449
anyway. All the women we know already know they're

00:44:46.449 --> 00:44:48.050
in charge. All the husbands are nodding their

00:44:48.050 --> 00:44:52.809
head. Yeah, I get that. Yeah. But I the way I

00:44:52.809 --> 00:44:56.170
say it is if you're a male wolf and you're ambitious

00:44:56.170 --> 00:44:59.329
and you gradually work your way up to the alpha

00:44:59.329 --> 00:45:02.980
position in your pack, You know, that's good.

00:45:03.300 --> 00:45:06.679
That's a nice accomplishment. Good for you. But

00:45:06.679 --> 00:45:09.519
all that means is now you're working for the

00:45:09.519 --> 00:45:13.519
real boss. It sure ain't you. That's hilarious.

00:45:14.619 --> 00:45:18.659
So Wolf eight and nine end up forming a pack.

00:45:18.840 --> 00:45:20.719
Yeah, she was quite a bit older than he was.

00:45:20.960 --> 00:45:23.840
Yeah. So in human years, he was a teenager and

00:45:23.840 --> 00:45:27.440
she was at least middle age. But boy, it worked.

00:45:28.719 --> 00:45:33.210
And. Let's maybe start the transition to the

00:45:33.210 --> 00:45:35.849
story of one of those pups that he'd had a special

00:45:35.849 --> 00:45:39.730
relationship with, and that was 21. And we don't

00:45:39.730 --> 00:45:42.590
have time to talk about 21's adventures. All

00:45:42.590 --> 00:45:45.650
I will say to my listeners is that, you know,

00:45:45.849 --> 00:45:49.170
21 became one of the most famous wolves in the

00:45:49.170 --> 00:45:52.829
Yellowstone reintroduction program. And his life

00:45:52.829 --> 00:45:55.289
story is covered beautifully in one of your books.

00:45:56.050 --> 00:45:59.190
To all my listeners, I cannot recommend Rick's

00:45:59.190 --> 00:46:03.710
books enough. They are a beautiful story of the

00:46:03.710 --> 00:46:06.329
Wolf reintroduction program in a Yellowstone.

00:46:07.170 --> 00:46:13.389
He tells 21 story in a way that is just captivating,

00:46:13.610 --> 00:46:17.329
whether you are pro wolf, anti wolf or neutral

00:46:17.329 --> 00:46:20.289
on wolves. If you want to understand wolves and

00:46:20.289 --> 00:46:22.190
their place in the environment in the Western

00:46:22.190 --> 00:46:25.309
US, you have to start reading Rick's books because

00:46:25.309 --> 00:46:28.860
they will really open your eyes about. How wolves

00:46:28.860 --> 00:46:30.980
work and how they interact in their environment

00:46:30.980 --> 00:46:33.739
and it's just a it's a great way to understand

00:46:33.739 --> 00:46:36.679
wolf behavior and biology One thing, you know

00:46:36.679 --> 00:46:40.539
before we wrap up Rick. I want to just Throw

00:46:40.539 --> 00:46:42.940
out a couple of things that I picked up during

00:46:42.940 --> 00:46:46.000
my time researching wolves and reading your books

00:46:46.000 --> 00:46:49.119
When we opened this podcast episode, we talked

00:46:49.119 --> 00:46:52.099
about how Jane Goodall described you as the guru

00:46:52.099 --> 00:46:57.840
of wolves you This is astonishing to me You you

00:46:57.840 --> 00:47:00.059
recorded, I'm sure it's more now, but you recorded

00:47:00.059 --> 00:47:04.659
15 straight years of observing wolves every single

00:47:04.659 --> 00:47:07.780
day for 15 years. Not every day, but probably.

00:47:07.900 --> 00:47:12.179
I saw wolves maybe 95 percent of the days. It's

00:47:12.179 --> 00:47:14.619
pretty darn good. That's pretty darn good. It

00:47:14.619 --> 00:47:17.360
wasn't perfect, though. But I have to say, I

00:47:17.360 --> 00:47:20.760
mean, 15 years going out every single day, not

00:47:20.760 --> 00:47:24.360
missing a day and seeing wolves 90 to 95 percent

00:47:24.360 --> 00:47:25.960
of the time. Do you know what finally stopped

00:47:25.960 --> 00:47:31.619
me? I will know. Tell me. I had to have a quintuple

00:47:31.619 --> 00:47:34.940
heart. What is it called? Heart bypass surgery?

00:47:34.940 --> 00:47:38.199
Yeah, bypass. Oh, my God. Quintuple. Yeah, yeah.

00:47:38.300 --> 00:47:41.519
Well, you're lucky that you caught it and you

00:47:41.519 --> 00:47:42.980
weren't out in the middle of Yellowstone when

00:47:42.980 --> 00:47:45.139
something happened, right? Yeah. Yeah, I got

00:47:45.139 --> 00:47:48.500
through that. OK. So you still go out to observe

00:47:48.500 --> 00:47:52.539
wolves, right? Yeah, I had my 10 ,000th day last

00:47:52.539 --> 00:47:57.369
spring. Incredible. And I keep track of every

00:47:57.369 --> 00:48:03.070
day how many wolves I've seen. I have a calendar

00:48:03.070 --> 00:48:07.550
here, so this was last month. The time I left,

00:48:07.550 --> 00:48:09.309
the time I came back, how many wolves I saw,

00:48:09.369 --> 00:48:12.190
where they were, what pack it was. And so I did

00:48:12.190 --> 00:48:15.969
add it up around the time of my 10 ,000th day

00:48:15.969 --> 00:48:19.250
and it was something like... A hundred and twenty

00:48:19.250 --> 00:48:22.289
six thousand walls. That's incredible. So let's

00:48:22.289 --> 00:48:24.650
say a pack of 10 one day, a pack of 50 another

00:48:24.650 --> 00:48:28.150
day, et cetera. Yeah. Just for my listeners can't

00:48:28.150 --> 00:48:31.570
see. Rick just showed me his his calendar, the

00:48:31.570 --> 00:48:33.730
same type of calendar I carry every day. I still

00:48:33.730 --> 00:48:36.349
love a paper calendar and it's covered in days.

00:48:36.349 --> 00:48:39.789
He's been out looking at wolves. So, you know,

00:48:39.789 --> 00:48:42.369
it's really impressive, Rick. Another statistic

00:48:42.369 --> 00:48:45.510
I wanted to bring up is one of the things you

00:48:45.510 --> 00:48:49.900
mentioned is Just in 1995 alone, which was and

00:48:49.900 --> 00:48:52.360
you mentioned this in one of your books, 1995

00:48:52.360 --> 00:48:54.960
alone, which was the first year of wolf introduction,

00:48:55.780 --> 00:49:00.599
reintroduction, you recorded 40 ,000 interactions

00:49:00.599 --> 00:49:04.079
with park visitors, which is that's incredible.

00:49:04.559 --> 00:49:07.099
That's a lot of people you're contacting in one

00:49:07.099 --> 00:49:11.059
summer and educating about wolf biology and the

00:49:11.059 --> 00:49:13.360
importance of reintroducing them to Yellowstone.

00:49:13.539 --> 00:49:16.159
That's that's a really impressive, you know,

00:49:16.320 --> 00:49:18.480
It's an impressive feat, but more importantly,

00:49:18.480 --> 00:49:22.159
it's an impressive service. It's an impressive

00:49:22.159 --> 00:49:24.340
public service to the people of this country.

00:49:24.880 --> 00:49:28.659
So, you know, I love that there are interpretive

00:49:28.659 --> 00:49:30.539
rangers out there that do that sort of thing.

00:49:30.639 --> 00:49:34.139
So on behalf of me and anybody else who cares

00:49:34.139 --> 00:49:36.199
in this country, thank you for doing that. It's

00:49:36.199 --> 00:49:43.019
a huge service. Well, you're welcome. I and that

00:49:43.019 --> 00:49:47.000
was because of my. My background was very different

00:49:47.000 --> 00:49:49.619
than most wildlife researchers because I had

00:49:49.619 --> 00:49:51.880
been what the Park Service calls a naturalist

00:49:51.880 --> 00:49:56.900
for half of my career. So that was my job, talking

00:49:56.900 --> 00:50:02.420
to people, doing shows, etc. So and because wolves

00:50:02.420 --> 00:50:05.320
were still a somewhat controversial species,

00:50:05.980 --> 00:50:08.239
you know, we needed to explain what we were doing.

00:50:09.259 --> 00:50:11.619
But at a certain point after the reintroduction,

00:50:11.719 --> 00:50:13.719
you didn't need to go over all that stuff every

00:50:13.719 --> 00:50:16.760
time with every person. So then it was, hey,

00:50:16.900 --> 00:50:18.679
folks, come on over here. We have the Jewett

00:50:18.679 --> 00:50:20.900
Peak Pack. Look through my scope. That's Wolf

00:50:20.900 --> 00:50:25.840
21. That's his mate 42, et cetera. That's 42's

00:50:25.840 --> 00:50:31.760
evil sister, 40. His evil sister, 40. Yeah, just

00:50:31.760 --> 00:50:35.179
tell everybody you have to read the book about

00:50:35.179 --> 00:50:38.699
Wolf 40 because that's a great story. And so,

00:50:38.699 --> 00:50:41.440
I mean, what's better than showing people that

00:50:41.440 --> 00:50:43.380
are new to Yellowstone on their first wolves?

00:50:43.400 --> 00:50:47.880
Yeah. And you describe many occasions where you

00:50:47.880 --> 00:50:51.280
actually had the feeling that you changed people's

00:50:51.280 --> 00:50:53.699
lives when they got to see wolves interacting

00:50:53.699 --> 00:50:57.400
with each other and their environment. Yes, and

00:50:57.400 --> 00:51:00.639
this memoir that I have coming out in a few months,

00:51:00.800 --> 00:51:05.119
I quote Doug Smith, and he said something very

00:51:05.119 --> 00:51:09.340
astute that's very, very true. He said, facts

00:51:09.340 --> 00:51:14.739
don't change people, but stories do. So whether

00:51:14.739 --> 00:51:18.760
it's you or me or Doug himself, you could talk

00:51:18.760 --> 00:51:23.309
to your blue in the face about the... ecological

00:51:23.309 --> 00:51:25.889
value of having wolves on the landscape and it's

00:51:25.889 --> 00:51:28.309
all true, you know, there's no doubting that.

00:51:28.929 --> 00:51:31.329
And that, you know, that accomplishes some good.

00:51:32.670 --> 00:51:36.769
There's value in that. But what people like are

00:51:36.769 --> 00:51:45.650
stories. And for example, the relationship that

00:51:45.650 --> 00:51:51.840
when 21 was a pup, he met wolf eight. who we

00:51:51.840 --> 00:51:55.960
knew was the runt of his letter. But to 21, this

00:51:55.960 --> 00:51:57.800
is the biggest male wolf he had ever seen in

00:51:57.800 --> 00:51:59.880
his life because it was the first male wolf he

00:51:59.880 --> 00:52:04.260
had ever seen. So, they became kind of best friends

00:52:04.260 --> 00:52:09.099
so to speak. Once 21 was a year or two older,

00:52:09.219 --> 00:52:12.000
they would go on a hunt together. They were like

00:52:12.139 --> 00:52:14.860
close friends, but Cassidy and the Sundance kid.

00:52:15.400 --> 00:52:18.460
But he always looked up to eight. He always admired

00:52:18.460 --> 00:52:22.260
him. You always saw him as above well above him

00:52:22.260 --> 00:52:25.460
in the hierarchy. And it wasn't long before 21

00:52:25.460 --> 00:52:28.340
was way bigger than eight, but was, you know,

00:52:28.340 --> 00:52:31.880
very happy and being subordinate to him. And,

00:52:31.880 --> 00:52:34.059
you know, I'm sorry, go ahead, go ahead. And

00:52:34.059 --> 00:52:38.880
this is in my book on 21. The thing that. When

00:52:38.880 --> 00:52:42.739
I saw this happen, it really made me think, you

00:52:42.739 --> 00:52:46.179
know, there's something really extra special

00:52:46.179 --> 00:52:52.599
about 21. And he had just come back. He was still

00:52:52.599 --> 00:52:55.099
in his original family, meaning with nine and

00:52:55.099 --> 00:52:58.019
eight. His mother had a new litter of pups this

00:52:58.019 --> 00:53:01.150
particular year. But one of the pups wasn't doing

00:53:01.150 --> 00:53:03.869
too well. It was sick with something. We don't

00:53:03.869 --> 00:53:07.190
know quite what it was. So it generally was away

00:53:07.190 --> 00:53:10.449
from the other pups while they were playing.

00:53:10.690 --> 00:53:12.809
You would see this little guy just kind of watching

00:53:12.809 --> 00:53:18.809
from a distance. And so 21 came back from a hunt

00:53:18.809 --> 00:53:22.389
and I'm sure he was exhausted and tired. They

00:53:22.389 --> 00:53:25.530
had been successful, he and eight. So he gave

00:53:25.530 --> 00:53:28.769
some food to his mother, number nine. He regurgitated

00:53:28.769 --> 00:53:33.429
to the pups there. And then he looked around

00:53:33.429 --> 00:53:37.969
and I realized that he was looking for that extra

00:53:37.969 --> 00:53:42.289
puppy. And he went right to him and fed him.

00:53:42.650 --> 00:53:44.690
But more importantly, just kind of hung out with

00:53:44.690 --> 00:53:49.369
that guy for a while. And, you know, it's an

00:53:49.369 --> 00:53:51.730
emotional story even now for me to talk about

00:53:51.730 --> 00:53:56.550
that. it would be like a kid that is sick, is

00:53:56.550 --> 00:54:00.269
left behind, his friends aren't paying any attention

00:54:00.269 --> 00:54:03.590
to him, but his big brother comes back and his

00:54:03.590 --> 00:54:05.989
big brother wants to hang out with him. Right.

00:54:07.269 --> 00:54:09.909
Emotionally made him feel better. Yeah. There's

00:54:09.909 --> 00:54:11.750
a number of occasions in your books where you

00:54:11.750 --> 00:54:13.730
talk about that. I'm saying that's actually the

00:54:13.730 --> 00:54:15.670
very story I was going to ask you to tell was

00:54:15.670 --> 00:54:19.690
that story about comforting the sickly pup. And

00:54:19.690 --> 00:54:23.070
there's another interesting story that goes with

00:54:23.070 --> 00:54:26.869
eight and 21, I think. And that is, I'll have

00:54:26.869 --> 00:54:28.809
you tell it, but I'll just give the setup to

00:54:28.809 --> 00:54:31.889
it. A lot of times what you describe in your

00:54:31.889 --> 00:54:34.670
book, there's often conflict between packs and

00:54:34.670 --> 00:54:38.250
that actually serves a important goal of keeping

00:54:38.250 --> 00:54:42.949
pack sizes in check for their carrying capacity

00:54:42.949 --> 00:54:46.099
with the number of elk around. You described

00:54:46.099 --> 00:54:52.659
some instances where Wolf 8 and 21 both, I guess,

00:54:52.840 --> 00:54:56.059
for lack of a better word, cut some slack to

00:54:56.059 --> 00:54:58.719
a wolf they were fighting. Can you kind of tell

00:54:58.719 --> 00:55:02.179
one of those stories a little bit where 8 or

00:55:02.179 --> 00:55:08.280
21 didn't kill when they could have? Yes. And

00:55:08.280 --> 00:55:11.739
the best example of that. it would be 21's no

00:55:11.739 --> 00:55:17.000
good nephew, well, 302. There's always a good

00:55:17.000 --> 00:55:20.300
nephew in any good story or bad nephew in every

00:55:20.300 --> 00:55:24.820
good story. So in 302 he had a problem and a

00:55:24.820 --> 00:55:27.039
lot of guys have a similar problem. He was just

00:55:27.039 --> 00:55:29.780
too good looking and the girls would let him

00:55:29.780 --> 00:55:33.340
get away with anything, yeah. So when 302 grew

00:55:33.340 --> 00:55:38.940
up, so he was born to let's see, 21's older sister

00:55:38.940 --> 00:55:42.239
and to 8's brother. So he came from this, you

00:55:42.239 --> 00:55:45.460
know, great genetic background. So his parents

00:55:45.460 --> 00:55:49.420
were superior wolves that were, you know, the

00:55:49.420 --> 00:55:53.059
best possible role models for an alpha pair and

00:55:53.059 --> 00:55:56.340
then there was their son who was the opposite.

00:55:57.039 --> 00:56:03.860
So when he grew up, yeah, his idea of a long

00:56:03.860 --> 00:56:11.469
-term relationship with a girl, 15 minutes, maybe.

00:56:12.130 --> 00:56:14.409
And that was kind of pushing it. He was getting

00:56:14.409 --> 00:56:18.170
bored. I got it. I got to move on. So and he

00:56:18.170 --> 00:56:21.269
was apparently irresistible to 21's daughter.

00:56:21.349 --> 00:56:24.570
So he just got them pregnant. And then 21 had

00:56:24.570 --> 00:56:28.949
to raise his own kids and his grandkids. And

00:56:28.949 --> 00:56:33.650
21 would chase 302 and catch him repeatedly.

00:56:34.769 --> 00:56:40.550
But 21 just had this code that, as far as we

00:56:40.550 --> 00:56:43.210
know, he never killed another wolf. He would

00:56:43.210 --> 00:56:46.690
just make his point and then, you know, hopefully

00:56:46.690 --> 00:56:49.889
he learned a lesson. But 302, you know, figured

00:56:49.889 --> 00:56:51.630
out how to take advantage of that. So he came

00:56:51.630 --> 00:56:55.769
back mating season after mating season and did

00:56:55.769 --> 00:56:58.860
it all over again. And, you know, I kept on thinking,

00:56:59.000 --> 00:57:00.940
why don't you just kill the guy and get it over

00:57:00.940 --> 00:57:04.099
with? If I was a dad, that's what I would do.

00:57:04.099 --> 00:57:11.079
All right. And. But he never did that. He showed

00:57:11.079 --> 00:57:13.320
a lot of empathy to other folks. That's right.

00:57:13.880 --> 00:57:16.880
Yeah, he did, too. Yeah, I think 21 learned that

00:57:16.880 --> 00:57:20.920
from me. Yeah, which that's just the you talk

00:57:20.920 --> 00:57:24.179
about stories and those stories are just so.

00:57:25.289 --> 00:57:27.889
moving and fascinating. And the irony of all

00:57:27.889 --> 00:57:31.489
that stuff is that in many ways, Aidan 21 were

00:57:31.489 --> 00:57:34.050
kind of the opposite because he was the runt

00:57:34.050 --> 00:57:36.949
of his litter, was bullied and beaten up. 21

00:57:36.949 --> 00:57:39.670
was probably the strongest and the biggest wolf

00:57:39.670 --> 00:57:44.110
in his litter. But you wonder, well, would he,

00:57:44.110 --> 00:57:46.190
without 8, would he have turned out the same

00:57:46.190 --> 00:57:48.469
way? Did he need 8 in his life to turn out the

00:57:48.469 --> 00:57:51.090
way they did? It's just it's a fascinating thing.

00:57:51.489 --> 00:57:53.429
Would he have been a bully if it wasn't for 8?

00:57:54.840 --> 00:57:58.599
So I oftentimes say that 21 was the undefeated

00:57:58.599 --> 00:58:00.559
heavyweight champion. He never lost a fight,

00:58:00.559 --> 00:58:04.179
right? But he never killed an opponent that he

00:58:04.179 --> 00:58:06.800
defeated. I don't think he ever even seriously

00:58:06.800 --> 00:58:09.980
injured an opponent. He just did the minimum.

00:58:10.019 --> 00:58:12.780
You know, it'd be like if you or I sparred with.

00:58:13.050 --> 00:58:15.710
like Tyson, Muhammad Ali and their heyday, you

00:58:15.710 --> 00:58:17.150
know, hopefully they go easy on us. Hopefully

00:58:17.150 --> 00:58:20.150
they'd go easy on us, exactly. But getting back

00:58:20.150 --> 00:58:24.349
to 302, he just he always took the easy way out,

00:58:24.909 --> 00:58:27.469
kind of the coward's way out. So he had nothing

00:58:27.469 --> 00:58:30.010
to do with raising any of his pups. Right. You

00:58:30.010 --> 00:58:32.869
know, he was back with his parents and I this

00:58:32.869 --> 00:58:35.050
is going to be a joke. It's not serious. Yeah.

00:58:35.239 --> 00:58:38.039
We we heard that he spent most of his time in

00:58:38.039 --> 00:58:39.820
their basement playing video games. You know

00:58:39.820 --> 00:58:42.519
how those guys are down in the basement of the

00:58:42.519 --> 00:58:46.860
den. Yeah. That's a funny. That's a great story.

00:58:47.500 --> 00:58:50.460
So just to finish, can I say? Sure. Yeah. OK.

00:58:50.659 --> 00:58:52.280
I'm just going to ask you, what else do we need

00:58:52.280 --> 00:58:53.659
to talk about? I don't want to keep you here

00:58:53.659 --> 00:58:55.679
all day, which we could stay all day. A little

00:58:55.679 --> 00:58:58.659
bit more on 302. So I just figured, you know,

00:58:58.739 --> 00:59:04.130
this is his life story. And. When he got older,

00:59:04.230 --> 00:59:07.210
he totally turned his life around and he became

00:59:07.210 --> 00:59:10.010
an alpha male very much like his father and his

00:59:10.010 --> 00:59:15.369
uncle. And I don't want to spoil it, but at the

00:59:15.369 --> 00:59:18.309
climax of his life, which is the climax of the

00:59:18.309 --> 00:59:21.789
book about 302, he became one of our greatest

00:59:21.789 --> 00:59:25.329
heroes. That's the book entitled Redemption of

00:59:25.329 --> 00:59:27.670
World 302, right? Yeah, that's right. Yeah. So

00:59:27.670 --> 00:59:30.050
Rick, what can you what do you know about the

00:59:30.050 --> 00:59:33.179
economic impacts of the reintroduction of wolves

00:59:33.179 --> 00:59:35.539
to the Yellowstone. What kind of impact has it

00:59:35.539 --> 00:59:39.119
had on the local communities? Well, boy, it's

00:59:39.119 --> 00:59:41.820
quite a story that we never really expected,

00:59:41.900 --> 00:59:45.800
even for me being around walls in other areas.

00:59:46.559 --> 00:59:50.599
When I came back in the spring of 95, after the

00:59:50.599 --> 00:59:54.780
walls had been released, my goal for that year.

00:59:55.819 --> 00:59:58.900
being a ranger in Yellowstone, having some inside

00:59:58.900 --> 01:00:01.880
information about where the wolves were. My goal

01:00:01.880 --> 01:00:07.980
was if I could see part of one wolf, one, that

01:00:07.980 --> 01:00:10.360
year I'd be the happiest guy in the world. You

01:00:10.360 --> 01:00:12.760
know, even a tail. Right. Give me a tail. That's

01:00:12.760 --> 01:00:15.059
the way I am now. I just want to see a movement.

01:00:15.500 --> 01:00:20.380
Yeah, yeah. I would not have been surprised if

01:00:20.380 --> 01:00:22.679
I hadn't seen any wolves that summer. But my

01:00:22.679 --> 01:00:26.230
first full day I saw the the whole Crystal Creek

01:00:26.230 --> 01:00:29.949
pack, including Wolf 8. And as you know, Yellowstone

01:00:29.949 --> 01:00:33.050
is mostly open country. And so if wolves are

01:00:33.050 --> 01:00:35.289
traveling through, you can see them from the

01:00:35.289 --> 01:00:38.449
road, maybe half a mile away, a mile away. And

01:00:38.449 --> 01:00:40.909
then eventually some of them den with inside

01:00:40.909 --> 01:00:42.650
of the road and you can see them raise their

01:00:42.650 --> 01:00:47.010
pups. So that was unexpected. And very quickly,

01:00:47.630 --> 01:00:50.809
some of the local folks, mostly men and women

01:00:50.809 --> 01:00:54.610
in their 20s, figured out, well, But maybe we

01:00:54.610 --> 01:00:58.110
should start up some wildlife tour business guiding

01:00:58.110 --> 01:01:01.889
services. And now we have a huge number of them.

01:01:02.769 --> 01:01:06.250
But the Montana State University in Bozeman,

01:01:06.590 --> 01:01:09.949
they periodically come down and do economic surveys.

01:01:10.010 --> 01:01:14.050
And they ask people, why did you come to Yellowstone?

01:01:14.389 --> 01:01:19.070
And so it used to be the hot springs, the geysers,

01:01:19.090 --> 01:01:22.019
you know, all that stuff. Now it's the wolves

01:01:22.019 --> 01:01:24.800
and the bears, with usually the wolves being

01:01:24.800 --> 01:01:30.500
number one. And so they have a formula where

01:01:30.500 --> 01:01:33.719
we get now five million visitors a year. So they

01:01:33.719 --> 01:01:36.139
took what percentage of people say they came

01:01:36.139 --> 01:01:40.079
to see wolves, what percentage of the five million

01:01:40.079 --> 01:01:42.960
that would be, and then they multiply it by the

01:01:42.960 --> 01:01:46.050
average amount. that a typical family spends

01:01:46.050 --> 01:01:49.409
here. And so and they do that periodically every

01:01:49.409 --> 01:01:52.170
few years. And the most recent one, the figure

01:01:52.170 --> 01:01:57.010
is 83 million dollars. Wow. Every year. Generated

01:01:57.010 --> 01:02:00.030
by Wolf. Wolf tourism. Yeah, that's right. Yeah.

01:02:00.269 --> 01:02:03.010
And so you may have noticed as you go through

01:02:03.010 --> 01:02:05.989
the park, you'll see a lot of cars with the logos

01:02:05.989 --> 01:02:10.800
of their the logos of their. to her name, like

01:02:10.800 --> 01:02:12.880
Wolf Tracker is one of them. I saw one of those.

01:02:13.199 --> 01:02:17.719
Yeah. And so it boy, it's a great way to earn

01:02:17.719 --> 01:02:21.280
your living. And no offense to other types of

01:02:21.280 --> 01:02:24.559
jobs. But before the walls, let's say normal

01:02:24.559 --> 01:02:29.039
family that had kids growing up, they finished

01:02:29.039 --> 01:02:33.059
their schooling. Really, the only jobs. locally

01:02:33.059 --> 01:02:36.019
would be working on a gas station, a gift shop,

01:02:36.559 --> 01:02:41.159
a motel, you clean rooms for visitors. Those

01:02:41.159 --> 01:02:43.940
are valid jobs, no offense on any of them, but

01:02:43.940 --> 01:02:46.780
they're pretty much minimum wage. Now you can

01:02:46.780 --> 01:02:49.880
start your own business, hire people, and that's

01:02:49.880 --> 01:02:51.860
a pretty good job to have. You get up early,

01:02:52.019 --> 01:02:53.780
you have some nice people, you take them out

01:02:53.780 --> 01:02:55.940
to see wolves. Spend every day in the wilderness?

01:02:56.139 --> 01:02:59.659
Yeah. That's a pretty nice job. In contrast,

01:02:59.659 --> 01:03:04.199
sticking with the economics, I'm a Montana resident.

01:03:05.199 --> 01:03:12.719
And so I went to the hunting section of Montana

01:03:12.719 --> 01:03:17.139
Fish, Wildlife and Parks. And the most recent

01:03:17.139 --> 01:03:19.480
time I did that was a little over a year ago.

01:03:19.579 --> 01:03:23.920
I saw that as a Montana resident, if I paid the

01:03:23.920 --> 01:03:27.320
fees and licenses and everything, I could shoot

01:03:27.320 --> 01:03:31.780
10 wolves and trap 10 wolves. One person could

01:03:31.780 --> 01:03:36.980
kill 20 wolves every year. And the cost for that,

01:03:37.519 --> 01:03:41.880
for a Montana resident, works up to $14 per wolf.

01:03:43.639 --> 01:03:45.900
Now, on the other hand, when we talked about

01:03:45.900 --> 01:03:49.679
$83 million, we tend to average about 100 wolves

01:03:49.679 --> 01:03:53.820
at any given time. So a different way to answer

01:03:53.820 --> 01:03:55.920
the question, what is the value of the wolf?

01:03:56.239 --> 01:04:01.219
There's a pretty good argument to say eight hundred

01:04:01.219 --> 01:04:04.480
and thirty thousand dollars per wolf. Yeah, for

01:04:04.480 --> 01:04:10.340
tourism. Plus, however many wolves, however many

01:04:10.340 --> 01:04:13.219
wolves saw people today. I was trying to say

01:04:13.219 --> 01:04:18.119
the other way around. So, you know, some days

01:04:18.119 --> 01:04:20.840
a thousand people see the wolves, maybe two thousand

01:04:20.840 --> 01:04:24.099
people. Sure. And the next day more people will

01:04:24.099 --> 01:04:27.719
see. probably those same wolves. So that's really

01:04:27.719 --> 01:04:33.079
begun to change the equations here, that even

01:04:33.079 --> 01:04:35.940
the politicians in the past would be very anti

01:04:35.940 --> 01:04:39.380
-wolf. They're starting to see, well, maybe there's

01:04:39.380 --> 01:04:41.699
something more to this than what we first thought.

01:04:45.769 --> 01:04:48.489
I think I told you the quote from Doug Smith

01:04:48.489 --> 01:04:51.389
and I that facts don't change people. Stories

01:04:51.389 --> 01:04:55.710
do. Yeah, I always hesitate to say this because

01:04:55.710 --> 01:05:01.530
my involvement is not the point of this story.

01:05:02.690 --> 01:05:05.750
It's always women that tell me this. They come

01:05:05.750 --> 01:05:08.869
up and say, hey, I gave my husband, I gave my

01:05:08.869 --> 01:05:12.070
boyfriend, I gave my neighbor one of your wolf

01:05:12.070 --> 01:05:17.000
books and. After reading it, they decided not

01:05:17.000 --> 01:05:20.139
to kill any more wolves. We need more of that.

01:05:20.820 --> 01:05:22.820
Yeah, the last time it happened, the husband

01:05:22.820 --> 01:05:27.039
was standing there and the wife said, you know,

01:05:27.219 --> 01:05:28.679
that, you know, something along those lines.

01:05:28.679 --> 01:05:31.360
And he he kind of was looking at his feet. And

01:05:31.360 --> 01:05:33.480
then, you know, when she finished, I looked at

01:05:33.480 --> 01:05:35.760
him and he looked at me and he said, yeah, it's

01:05:35.760 --> 01:05:40.920
true. Well, I that is a very interesting story.

01:05:40.920 --> 01:05:44.579
And I think that is should make you sleep well

01:05:44.579 --> 01:05:49.320
at night. Knowing that, well, I understand you

01:05:49.320 --> 01:05:51.900
saying that and thank you, but I really it's

01:05:51.900 --> 01:05:54.460
it's all the walls. It's not me. I just tell

01:05:54.460 --> 01:05:56.800
their stories, tell their stories. But it wouldn't

01:05:56.800 --> 01:05:58.659
happen without somebody who'd been out there

01:05:58.659 --> 01:06:02.840
every day for 15 years observing wolves. Yeah,

01:06:02.840 --> 01:06:05.960
but it's still their story. That's a very humble

01:06:05.960 --> 01:06:09.739
way to put it. But for for my listeners, I actually

01:06:09.739 --> 01:06:12.219
would I'm going to put on my website a list of

01:06:12.219 --> 01:06:14.699
Rick's books that he's published about wolves.

01:06:14.880 --> 01:06:18.719
They're all good. They're all great. My recommendation,

01:06:18.880 --> 01:06:21.360
though, is that people start with the rise of

01:06:21.360 --> 01:06:24.039
Wolf eight, which I think tells the story of

01:06:24.039 --> 01:06:27.980
Wolf ten and nine. Yeah, it tells briefly introduces

01:06:27.980 --> 01:06:30.820
you to the demise of Wolf ten, but then really

01:06:30.820 --> 01:06:34.300
goes into great detail about the the Rose Creek

01:06:34.300 --> 01:06:38.840
pack and the its success under Wolf nine and

01:06:38.840 --> 01:06:41.159
Wolf eight together as the Alphas. It's a great

01:06:41.159 --> 01:06:44.489
place to start. The rick mcintyre series of books

01:06:44.489 --> 01:06:48.809
on wolves rick i cannot thank you enough for

01:06:48.809 --> 01:06:50.690
sitting down with me i know it was a little bit

01:06:50.690 --> 01:06:53.070
difficult to do the scheduling to make this happen.

01:06:53.849 --> 01:06:56.829
But this is the perfect introduction to my season

01:06:56.829 --> 01:07:00.949
three next week will be talking to retired special

01:07:00.949 --> 01:07:03.230
agent tim eicher who will tell the story about

01:07:03.230 --> 01:07:05.949
wolf ten from the law enforcement investigative

01:07:05.949 --> 01:07:09.579
side and from there we will. we will soldier

01:07:09.579 --> 01:07:12.099
on and learn more about wolf reintroduction and

01:07:12.099 --> 01:07:14.260
wolf ecology in the United States. Okay, great.

01:07:14.320 --> 01:07:16.079
Thank you so much for being on the show. I really

01:07:16.079 --> 01:07:19.400
appreciate it. Thank you. Nature's Secret Service

01:07:19.400 --> 01:07:22.000
is written and produced by me, Ed Newcomer, and

01:07:22.000 --> 01:07:25.179
is co -produced by the DHTV team here at California

01:07:25.179 --> 01:07:27.900
State University Dominguez Hills. Follow us on

01:07:27.900 --> 01:07:31.099
social media and connect with us online at naturessecretservice

01:07:31.099 --> 01:07:31.679
.com.