WEBVTT 00:00:07.300 --> 00:00:10.099 Okay, hey quirky before you say before we sign 00:00:10.099 --> 00:00:11.759 off, would you do me a favor? Do you have about 00:00:11.759 --> 00:00:16.640 15 more minutes? Sure. I want to do a bonus episode 00:00:16.640 --> 00:00:18.739 because I'm kind of delayed releasing my wolf 00:00:18.739 --> 00:00:21.940 episodes because I got sick So I want to do like 00:00:21.940 --> 00:00:24.539 a little short bonus episode and this topic of 00:00:24.539 --> 00:00:28.300 it is gonna crack you up Do you remember? You 00:00:28.300 --> 00:00:30.679 know what? We're just gonna record it. Okay, 00:00:30.859 --> 00:00:33.000 because I want to get your reaction to the whole 00:00:33.000 --> 00:00:35.189 thing All right. All right. So here we go. We're 00:00:35.189 --> 00:00:36.729 going to start a whole new episode, but we're 00:00:36.729 --> 00:00:38.549 not, we're just going to leave it recording. 00:00:38.750 --> 00:00:42.369 Okay. All right. Yeah. Is this going to be 15 00:00:42.369 --> 00:00:45.509 minutes? You're going to appreciate it. Okay. 00:00:46.350 --> 00:01:16.480 Here we go. Five, four. Okay, everybody, listen 00:01:16.480 --> 00:01:19.659 up. Here we go. This is Nature's Secret Service, 00:01:19.780 --> 00:01:21.400 the podcast that puts you in the room with the 00:01:21.400 --> 00:01:23.500 men and women of wildlife law enforcement. I'm 00:01:23.500 --> 00:01:26.599 your host, Ed Newcomer, and this is a short bonus 00:01:26.599 --> 00:01:29.900 episode to hold you over between season two and 00:01:29.900 --> 00:01:31.780 season three. We're a little delayed getting 00:01:31.780 --> 00:01:35.060 season three out, so I thought I'd... Take this 00:01:35.060 --> 00:01:37.500 opportunity to produce a short bonus episode 00:01:37.500 --> 00:01:41.140 for you Especially while I have former special 00:01:41.140 --> 00:01:43.439 agent Corky Roberts at my disposal who's with 00:01:43.439 --> 00:01:46.060 us today Corky. Thanks so much for joining us 00:01:46.060 --> 00:01:52.540 for this bonus episode You don't even know what 00:01:52.540 --> 00:01:57.379 we're gonna talk about So to preface this I'm 00:01:57.379 --> 00:02:00.319 gonna tell listeners and watchers that while 00:02:00.319 --> 00:02:04.430 Corky was a special agent for us most of his 00:02:04.430 --> 00:02:07.170 career as a special agent, he was also a special 00:02:07.170 --> 00:02:10.169 agent pilot, which means, you know, he flew a 00:02:10.169 --> 00:02:13.169 plane for the Fish and Wildlife Service. We do 00:02:13.169 --> 00:02:16.050 have, you know, historically, we've had a number 00:02:16.050 --> 00:02:19.030 of agents in our force that have been certified 00:02:19.030 --> 00:02:22.250 as pilots. And what I want to talk to you about, 00:02:22.349 --> 00:02:25.669 Corky, is a time when you consulted with me on 00:02:25.669 --> 00:02:30.250 the telephone. You were in Washington. I was 00:02:30.250 --> 00:02:32.889 in California. So I don't think we were part 00:02:32.889 --> 00:02:35.250 of the same region anymore, but you and I knew 00:02:35.250 --> 00:02:38.530 each other and I knew you were a pilot. Can you 00:02:38.530 --> 00:02:43.289 explain a little bit to listeners about, I don't 00:02:43.289 --> 00:02:45.449 know, I can't remember the office, but the Department 00:02:45.449 --> 00:02:50.849 of Interior Aviation Department. Office of Aircraft 00:02:50.849 --> 00:02:53.669 Services. That's it. Department of Interior Office 00:02:53.669 --> 00:02:56.949 of Aircraft Services. Can you just describe what 00:02:56.949 --> 00:02:59.990 that is and what they do and the influence they 00:02:59.990 --> 00:03:02.909 have over the different employees working at 00:03:02.909 --> 00:03:08.110 the Department of Interior? Yes. So, Office of 00:03:08.110 --> 00:03:10.650 Aircraft Services is a division of the Department 00:03:10.650 --> 00:03:15.509 of Interior. Right. And they were formed, I want 00:03:15.509 --> 00:03:21.909 to say the 70s, I guess. At that time, we had 00:03:21.909 --> 00:03:24.830 Fish and Wildlife Agents, Bureau of Land Management, 00:03:25.500 --> 00:03:28.560 park service people, not just agents, but biologists 00:03:28.560 --> 00:03:30.719 and everything who were flying people around 00:03:30.719 --> 00:03:34.979 doing surveys and law enforcement patrols and 00:03:34.979 --> 00:03:37.580 this kind of thing. And people were dying. I 00:03:37.580 --> 00:03:39.099 mean, it was pretty serious stuff. There were 00:03:39.099 --> 00:03:40.840 a lot of plane crashes. You can go back and look 00:03:40.840 --> 00:03:42.780 at the records and it was pretty significant. 00:03:43.439 --> 00:03:46.460 And it was kind of a wild west of aviation at 00:03:46.460 --> 00:03:48.689 that time. I mean, some of the planes were put 00:03:48.689 --> 00:03:50.990 together off of other planes and there was really 00:03:50.990 --> 00:03:53.129 no regulation to it because it was operating 00:03:53.129 --> 00:03:55.569 not under the FAA rules, but under public keys. 00:03:57.569 --> 00:04:03.689 And so I don't know who made the final decision, 00:04:03.710 --> 00:04:06.430 but they formed the Office of Aircraft Services 00:04:06.430 --> 00:04:09.509 to go, wait a minute, we need to have some standards 00:04:09.509 --> 00:04:11.770 here. And so they, over the period of years, 00:04:11.789 --> 00:04:18.430 they developed some standards to promote safety 00:04:18.430 --> 00:04:22.589 and training and that kind of thing within Fish 00:04:22.589 --> 00:04:25.170 and Wildlife Service and within the Department 00:04:25.170 --> 00:04:29.569 of Interior, Aviation and Cadre. Not only with 00:04:29.569 --> 00:04:32.089 fleet pilots, pilots who worked for the government 00:04:32.089 --> 00:04:34.589 agencies, but also the contract pilots that they 00:04:34.589 --> 00:04:39.110 were hiring to do firefighting, particularly 00:04:39.110 --> 00:04:42.529 firefighting, but ambulance work, surveys, that 00:04:42.529 --> 00:04:48.060 kind of thing. And so they started putting the, 00:04:48.060 --> 00:04:50.720 you know, tightening things up quite a bit. And 00:04:50.720 --> 00:04:53.560 it did help. And it has helped. They have done 00:04:53.560 --> 00:04:57.920 an important task. However, they have - Yeah, 00:04:58.279 --> 00:05:01.600 there's a big however. It sometimes gets a little, 00:05:02.439 --> 00:05:06.079 over the years, they have enhanced safety dramatically, 00:05:06.100 --> 00:05:09.500 but sometimes it's a little overboard. Yeah. 00:05:09.680 --> 00:05:12.920 So that's a great introduction because you're 00:05:12.920 --> 00:05:16.579 right. They have really been tremendously beneficial 00:05:16.579 --> 00:05:18.959 in terms of reducing the number of mortalities, 00:05:19.220 --> 00:05:24.959 plane crashes increasing and making it more uniform 00:05:24.959 --> 00:05:30.879 for pilot training and aircraft safety just in 00:05:30.879 --> 00:05:35.870 general. That's been excellent. We're gonna jump 00:05:35.870 --> 00:05:39.930 ahead now. I believe it was around 2011 or 12 00:05:39.930 --> 00:05:43.569 I was a what they call a field training agent 00:05:43.569 --> 00:05:47.709 or FTO field training officer and I had new new 00:05:47.709 --> 00:05:51.449 agents that I was training and one of those agents 00:05:51.449 --> 00:05:55.730 had an investigation involving destruction of 00:05:56.780 --> 00:05:59.420 endangered species habitat that likely led to 00:05:59.420 --> 00:06:01.579 the destruction of the endangered species itself, 00:06:01.740 --> 00:06:04.600 the California tiger salamander. And one of the 00:06:04.600 --> 00:06:07.699 things that we needed to do was document how 00:06:07.699 --> 00:06:11.240 this person had destroyed their land by farming 00:06:11.240 --> 00:06:13.199 practices, basically. They had destroyed a few 00:06:13.199 --> 00:06:17.079 ponds. And the perfect way to do that would be 00:06:17.079 --> 00:06:21.620 to fly over the property. So I remember You had 00:06:21.620 --> 00:06:23.779 a plane at the time, but I your plane was not 00:06:23.779 --> 00:06:26.160 available And I don't remember why maybe it was 00:06:26.160 --> 00:06:28.180 just out of service at the time or you weren't 00:06:28.180 --> 00:06:30.959 available I don't remember but you were in Washington 00:06:30.959 --> 00:06:33.120 anyway So it would have required flying your 00:06:33.120 --> 00:06:35.040 airplane all the way down to Southern, California 00:06:35.040 --> 00:06:40.100 to do this. So what I did Me and my training 00:06:40.100 --> 00:06:43.279 trainee we reached out to the local sheriff's 00:06:43.279 --> 00:06:48.660 department Santa Barbara. Now you know what I'm 00:06:48.660 --> 00:06:51.420 talking about. It was the Santa Barbara County 00:06:51.420 --> 00:06:53.420 Sheriff's Department and they have a helicopter 00:06:53.420 --> 00:06:56.220 and they fly a helicopter. Law enforcement agency, 00:06:56.459 --> 00:07:01.360 they do all kinds of rescue work, law enforcement 00:07:01.360 --> 00:07:04.899 work, patrol work, whatever it is. And they were 00:07:04.899 --> 00:07:07.639 like, absolutely, we'll fly you over the property. 00:07:08.680 --> 00:07:11.220 And our goal was to take pictures of the changes 00:07:11.220 --> 00:07:13.360 this farmer had made to his property from the 00:07:13.360 --> 00:07:16.360 air. So yeah, no problem. We'll fly you. Come 00:07:16.360 --> 00:07:18.720 on over to the Santa Barbara airport, and we'll 00:07:18.720 --> 00:07:22.079 pick you up. So I thought, man, you know what? 00:07:22.160 --> 00:07:25.100 Shit, I better call Corky, because I can't remember 00:07:25.100 --> 00:07:28.779 what the DOI rules are on this. And I remember 00:07:28.779 --> 00:07:31.500 calling you, and you said, you can't do that, 00:07:31.560 --> 00:07:36.490 Ed. Do you have any recollection of that call 00:07:36.490 --> 00:07:40.790 or why you? Tell me what you remember about that 00:07:40.790 --> 00:07:43.730 phone call. I remember you called me up and I 00:07:43.730 --> 00:07:48.689 can't. I think I think that you were region 8 00:07:48.689 --> 00:07:52.350 at that time. Yes, region 8 yeah and I could 00:07:52.350 --> 00:07:55.430 not get the authorization to come down there 00:07:55.430 --> 00:08:00.009 because I had a Cessna 185 with a camera on it. 00:08:00.170 --> 00:08:05.839 It would have been ideal for this. For one reason 00:08:05.839 --> 00:08:09.420 or another, for personality problems, whatever 00:08:09.420 --> 00:08:13.980 it may have been, I was told. No, you can't go 00:08:13.980 --> 00:08:16.500 that far. It's too much of a night. Okay, so 00:08:16.500 --> 00:08:19.839 your denial came from the Region 1 Office of 00:08:19.839 --> 00:08:23.300 Law Enforcement Supervisor chain. Okay, yes. 00:08:23.620 --> 00:08:28.019 Now you know where we're going. or what happened. 00:08:28.439 --> 00:08:31.339 But I remember you and then I forgot about it 00:08:31.339 --> 00:08:33.539 because you talked to me about it. And then all 00:08:33.539 --> 00:08:35.240 of a sudden you called up today, I got Santa 00:08:35.240 --> 00:08:37.139 Barbara County Sheriff's or whatever Sheriff's 00:08:37.139 --> 00:08:39.820 Department was would do that for you. I said, 00:08:40.679 --> 00:08:43.799 yeah, no, that might have been one of those things 00:08:43.799 --> 00:08:45.700 you probably should have done it and then ask 00:08:45.700 --> 00:08:48.519 for forgiveness. Yeah, that's for forgiveness 00:08:48.519 --> 00:08:52.980 later if you even get caught. Right. Yeah, it's 00:08:53.320 --> 00:08:56.299 because basically you as a Fish and Wildlife 00:08:56.299 --> 00:09:00.320 employee, Department of Interior employee, you 00:09:00.320 --> 00:09:05.539 cannot fly on an aircraft that is not carted, 00:09:06.600 --> 00:09:09.399 inspected, and approved by the Office of Aircraft 00:09:09.399 --> 00:09:13.299 Services. And you need to have protection equipment, 00:09:13.700 --> 00:09:16.500 helmets, flight suits, the whole thing to do 00:09:16.500 --> 00:09:21.659 that. And that's one of those things maybe it's 00:09:21.659 --> 00:09:23.980 gone a little bit overboard now, you know, because 00:09:23.980 --> 00:09:27.340 there are times, but in Alaska, I want, you know, 00:09:27.419 --> 00:09:30.039 there were times I wanted to go up with a, you 00:09:30.039 --> 00:09:32.080 know, state trooper. They had helicopters, you 00:09:32.080 --> 00:09:34.220 know, and I was like, oh man, I could go get 00:09:34.220 --> 00:09:36.679 over there and get this done and not have to 00:09:36.679 --> 00:09:39.039 land three miles away and hike into some site, 00:09:39.100 --> 00:09:41.299 you know, it's gonna drop right down on top of 00:09:41.299 --> 00:09:45.080 it. Couldn't do it, you know, could not do it, 00:09:45.120 --> 00:09:48.379 unless you didn't have permission. So I never 00:09:48.379 --> 00:09:52.820 did that. No, you know what? So on my end, I'm 00:09:52.820 --> 00:09:55.580 down in Santa Barbara County in the moment where 00:09:55.580 --> 00:09:58.220 I'm like, oh, these guys can do this for us like 00:09:58.220 --> 00:10:01.679 in the next hour or two. And I'm like trying 00:10:01.679 --> 00:10:04.600 to figure out with you a workaround and you were 00:10:04.600 --> 00:10:07.659 just adamant can't do it. And to me, from my 00:10:07.659 --> 00:10:10.799 perspective, and you agreed with me on this 100%. 00:10:10.799 --> 00:10:14.240 You know, it's just one of those things where 00:10:14.240 --> 00:10:20.700 a well -intentioned rule is producing an absurd 00:10:20.700 --> 00:10:24.299 result, right? Like we worked with Coast Guard 00:10:24.299 --> 00:10:27.500 all the time on environmental or wildlife issues 00:10:27.500 --> 00:10:30.940 off the coast. To tell us that we couldn't go 00:10:30.940 --> 00:10:34.019 ride with a Coast Guard helicopter crew or an 00:10:34.019 --> 00:10:38.059 airplane crew is absurd. The idea, especially 00:10:38.059 --> 00:10:40.799 if the underlying rules and regulations are designed 00:10:40.799 --> 00:10:45.129 for safety of the DOI employee. The idea that 00:10:45.129 --> 00:10:47.230 we're not gonna be safe flying with a Coast Guard 00:10:47.230 --> 00:10:51.669 crew Or even a local sheriff or the LAPD helicopter 00:10:51.669 --> 00:10:54.769 those those guys have so many hundreds and thousands 00:10:54.769 --> 00:10:58.330 of hours of flight time and The aircraft are 00:10:58.330 --> 00:11:01.549 so well cared for it's not you know to me. It 00:11:01.549 --> 00:11:05.110 was like I Personally, I don't have any issue 00:11:05.110 --> 00:11:07.750 flying with the Santa Barbara County Sheriff's 00:11:07.750 --> 00:11:13.190 Department So this is my favorite part do you 00:11:13.190 --> 00:11:15.639 remember So we had this back and forth, and it 00:11:15.639 --> 00:11:18.139 wasn't an argument between me and you. It was 00:11:18.139 --> 00:11:22.279 a discussion about, you knew what I was doing. 00:11:22.360 --> 00:11:25.480 I'm trying to find a reasonable workaround of 00:11:25.480 --> 00:11:26.940 this that I can get away with without getting 00:11:26.940 --> 00:11:30.360 in trouble. And you're trying to give me the 00:11:30.360 --> 00:11:32.100 correct advice, but you're also trying to help 00:11:32.100 --> 00:11:34.559 me figure out if there's a workaround. Do you 00:11:34.559 --> 00:11:38.000 remember what your final advice was? You probably 00:11:38.000 --> 00:11:43.259 don't. I do. I don't. So you said to me, You 00:11:43.259 --> 00:11:45.080 said to me first thing you said to me was Ed 00:11:45.080 --> 00:11:47.039 This is probably one of those situations where 00:11:47.039 --> 00:11:48.700 it probably would have been better for you to 00:11:48.700 --> 00:11:51.919 have done it and not asked but now that you've 00:11:51.919 --> 00:11:59.480 asked here's the answer and I I Think one of 00:11:59.480 --> 00:12:02.399 the things I threw out to you was The only way 00:12:02.399 --> 00:12:04.379 I'm gonna get in trouble for this quirky is if 00:12:04.379 --> 00:12:07.759 I crash if this airplane crashes That's true. 00:12:07.779 --> 00:12:09.360 That's the only way I'm gonna get in trouble 00:12:09.629 --> 00:12:13.169 And if I, if this helicopter crashes, I got a 00:12:13.169 --> 00:12:15.970 lot bigger problems than what my special agent 00:12:15.970 --> 00:12:18.830 charge for the regions is going to say. I'm probably 00:12:18.830 --> 00:12:23.350 going to be dead. Right. So I remember telling 00:12:23.350 --> 00:12:28.070 you that and you, you said something like, uh, 00:12:28.070 --> 00:12:31.389 you know, ed, uh, I'm telling you under DIY rules, 00:12:31.590 --> 00:12:34.409 you can't do it. But I think you either said, 00:12:34.490 --> 00:12:39.259 I don't want to know what you do or. You know 00:12:39.259 --> 00:12:43.899 do what you need to do. I can't remember But 00:12:43.899 --> 00:12:48.279 basically it was a nice way to see why a yourself 00:12:48.279 --> 00:12:52.159 but basically the message was clear so here's 00:12:52.159 --> 00:12:55.639 what I hung up that phone and I looked at my 00:12:55.639 --> 00:12:59.240 trainee who was special agent Jessica Espinosa 00:12:59.240 --> 00:13:01.779 who's the daughter of the deputy director of 00:13:01.779 --> 00:13:07.120 our forensics lab. And she really wanted to go. 00:13:07.240 --> 00:13:10.220 It was her case. It was her case. She was a new 00:13:10.220 --> 00:13:13.220 agent. It was her first habitat destruction case. 00:13:13.740 --> 00:13:17.120 She wanted to go. And I said to her, I explained 00:13:17.120 --> 00:13:19.039 my conversation with you. And I said, here's 00:13:19.039 --> 00:13:22.039 the deal. We're going. We're not going to give 00:13:22.039 --> 00:13:24.720 up this opportunity to get on a helicopter when 00:13:24.720 --> 00:13:26.460 the sheriff's department's making it available. 00:13:26.559 --> 00:13:29.559 We're going, but you're not going. I'm going. 00:13:29.769 --> 00:13:36.210 And I told her, I said, you're a trainee. But 00:13:36.210 --> 00:13:40.090 I was like, you're a trainee. I'm a senior agent. 00:13:40.149 --> 00:13:44.169 I got 13 years on. I'm probably not going to 00:13:44.169 --> 00:13:48.210 get in trouble unless we crash. If we do crash, 00:13:48.250 --> 00:13:52.700 I don't care if I get in trouble. You know, I 00:13:52.700 --> 00:13:54.980 can't put it I can't put a person who's on their 00:13:54.980 --> 00:14:01.759 probationary training period She's kind of bummed 00:14:01.759 --> 00:14:04.539 I watched her as we took off in the helicopter 00:14:04.539 --> 00:14:11.259 down on the tarmac watching us take off Yeah, 00:14:11.259 --> 00:14:14.000 we did the flight we took the pictures and nobody 00:14:14.000 --> 00:14:16.120 was ever the wiser and I never got in trouble 00:14:16.120 --> 00:14:21.480 for it good now Another place that this office 00:14:21.480 --> 00:14:24.279 of aircraft safety came up in later was the use 00:14:24.279 --> 00:14:27.580 of drones. Did you ever get into it with them 00:14:27.580 --> 00:14:31.860 about using drones for aerial surveillance? You 00:14:31.860 --> 00:14:36.120 know, I wanted to. They were just starting to 00:14:36.120 --> 00:14:39.580 teach guys, to approve guys to fly drones. And 00:14:39.580 --> 00:14:45.659 I asked Portland, I said, I would like to go 00:14:45.659 --> 00:14:51.200 to their class. No, we don't do that here. No, 00:14:51.600 --> 00:14:54.559 it was just no. At that point in my career, everything 00:14:54.559 --> 00:15:00.860 was no. I would have loved to have done that. 00:15:01.100 --> 00:15:04.039 I think drones are... A great tool, but they 00:15:04.039 --> 00:15:06.679 could they could be abused. Yes. Yeah. Needs 00:15:06.679 --> 00:15:09.259 training. Uh, and so when, you know, when, when 00:15:09.259 --> 00:15:11.200 I'm talking about drones, so listeners know we're 00:15:11.200 --> 00:15:13.139 not talking about, you know, military grade, 00:15:13.139 --> 00:15:15.080 you know, Reapers, we're talking about off the 00:15:15.080 --> 00:15:19.279 shelf DJI drones that anybody could buy. And 00:15:19.279 --> 00:15:22.360 I saw them, especially in urban areas is a tremendous 00:15:22.360 --> 00:15:25.179 tool. Uh, because as long as you fly, I think 00:15:25.179 --> 00:15:27.360 the minimum ceiling for helicopters is what? 00:15:27.379 --> 00:15:30.659 400 feet. unless it's an emergency, something 00:15:30.659 --> 00:15:34.360 like that. There's different variances. But I 00:15:34.360 --> 00:15:36.299 figured as long as you flew your drone at the 00:15:36.299 --> 00:15:38.799 same altitude, the LAPD was authorized to fly 00:15:38.799 --> 00:15:41.039 their helicopter and look down on your property 00:15:41.039 --> 00:15:43.320 that we were probably OK. But yeah, it's very 00:15:43.320 --> 00:15:45.580 frustrating because the Office of Aircraft, whatever, 00:15:45.799 --> 00:15:48.500 wouldn't allow us to even purchase a drone, even 00:15:48.500 --> 00:15:51.200 if our region had agreed. And you're right, region 00:15:51.200 --> 00:15:54.080 one at that time, their knee -jerk reaction to 00:15:54.080 --> 00:16:00.429 everything seemed to be no. Yes. To me, since 00:16:00.429 --> 00:16:04.570 you were a pilot, I know you understand the rules 00:16:04.570 --> 00:16:08.970 that aircraft operations had better than I did. 00:16:09.789 --> 00:16:12.250 But I just wanted to get your take on it because 00:16:12.250 --> 00:16:15.769 I often felt like it was enforcing a rule for 00:16:15.769 --> 00:16:18.230 the sake of the rule and not looking at what's 00:16:18.230 --> 00:16:22.169 the purpose of the rule, right? Yeah. But that's 00:16:22.169 --> 00:16:27.850 what rules do. They become just a rule. The purpose 00:16:27.850 --> 00:16:31.850 of it is long since lost. And it's unfortunate, 00:16:32.049 --> 00:16:35.110 you know, because drones are an unbelievable 00:16:35.110 --> 00:16:38.269 tool now. I mean, I still fly fires, as you know, 00:16:39.110 --> 00:16:41.789 and the advent of the increase in the number 00:16:41.789 --> 00:16:47.340 of drones, lawful drones on in fires now is unbelievable, 00:16:47.460 --> 00:16:50.620 and they are a fantastic tool. There are pretty 00:16:50.620 --> 00:16:52.940 significant restrictions on when and where and 00:16:52.940 --> 00:16:54.899 that kind of thing. So they're a great tool. 00:16:55.379 --> 00:16:58.440 God, I would love to have had one. Yeah, and 00:16:58.440 --> 00:17:00.779 you know, I'm all for restrictions for safety 00:17:00.779 --> 00:17:03.340 reasons. I'm all for restrictions to make sure 00:17:03.340 --> 00:17:05.980 agents and officers don't abuse people's constitutional 00:17:05.980 --> 00:17:08.579 rights, you know, keep it at the proper, you 00:17:08.579 --> 00:17:11.680 know, altitude. Don't use infrared to look in 00:17:11.680 --> 00:17:14.259 houses and stuff like that. I'm all for all of 00:17:14.259 --> 00:17:19.049 that. But as long as what I'm not for, it's I 00:17:19.049 --> 00:17:22.750 cannot stand the application of a rule or regulation 00:17:22.750 --> 00:17:25.369 without understanding the purpose of the rule 00:17:25.369 --> 00:17:29.289 or regulation. Because in my view, if you're 00:17:29.289 --> 00:17:31.490 applying the rule, you should be applying it 00:17:31.490 --> 00:17:34.650 to accomplish the purpose. And if the purpose 00:17:34.650 --> 00:17:40.359 is safety, I just didn't, we always operated 00:17:40.359 --> 00:17:42.839 with officer discretion, right? We could enforce 00:17:42.839 --> 00:17:45.099 the law or not, depending on our discretion. 00:17:46.799 --> 00:17:49.160 And it was one of the, I always felt that that 00:17:49.160 --> 00:17:51.599 office of, what was it? Aircraft operations, 00:17:51.779 --> 00:17:54.059 right? Office of aircraft services. I always 00:17:54.059 --> 00:17:56.759 felt that office of aircraft services, more often 00:17:56.759 --> 00:18:01.619 than not, interfered with us doing the job we 00:18:01.619 --> 00:18:04.720 were supposed to do, then it did. saving me. 00:18:04.819 --> 00:18:07.759 You know, I don't want to say the office itself 00:18:07.759 --> 00:18:10.400 did, but the idea, but it's the personnel, it's 00:18:10.400 --> 00:18:13.380 more of the purpose. The purpose of those rules 00:18:13.380 --> 00:18:17.440 is lost to time. It really is. Now it's just, 00:18:17.579 --> 00:18:21.180 oh, if this says we can't do this, nobody asks 00:18:21.180 --> 00:18:26.099 why. Why can't Ed get on a helicopter with a 00:18:26.099 --> 00:18:28.940 10 ,000 hour helicopter pilot who flies at night 00:18:28.940 --> 00:18:33.359 through wired terrain to chase bad guys? to go 00:18:33.359 --> 00:18:38.059 look at a strawberry patch. You know, and that's 00:18:38.059 --> 00:18:42.900 where, that's where it gets lost. And yeah, their 00:18:42.900 --> 00:18:45.700 initial purpose was great. And they still, they're 00:18:45.700 --> 00:18:47.720 still around. I mean, I just took a check ride 00:18:47.720 --> 00:18:50.339 three days ago from OAS to go fly a single -engine 00:18:50.339 --> 00:18:52.619 air tanker. You know, I could do it every three 00:18:52.619 --> 00:18:56.500 years. And they have some good people working 00:18:56.500 --> 00:18:58.980 there that do a good job and make sure you're 00:18:58.980 --> 00:19:00.480 operating safely and make sure your airplanes 00:19:00.480 --> 00:19:04.420 are in good shape. but sometimes yeah and that 00:19:04.420 --> 00:19:07.660 was one of those times where where we just were 00:19:07.660 --> 00:19:10.920 gonna make sure we got the case work done i think 00:19:10.920 --> 00:19:13.539 that is the same kind of frustrating advice you 00:19:13.539 --> 00:19:16.440 were giving me about flying you're saying like 00:19:16.440 --> 00:19:19.200 ed i'm telling you nobody's gonna know you did 00:19:19.200 --> 00:19:24.349 it yeah well can i do it I'm telling you, nobody's 00:19:24.349 --> 00:19:29.210 going to know you did it. This conversation never 00:19:29.210 --> 00:19:31.750 happens. I don't know what you're talking about. 00:19:32.089 --> 00:19:35.819 I don't know who that is. All right. Well, that 00:19:35.819 --> 00:19:38.019 is the quick story I wanted to tell, because 00:19:38.019 --> 00:19:42.079 to me, it's just so indicative of the things 00:19:42.079 --> 00:19:43.920 that come up when you're working on our job. 00:19:44.200 --> 00:19:46.640 And it was so indicative of my relationship with 00:19:46.640 --> 00:19:49.140 you. We could have that fun conversation and 00:19:49.140 --> 00:19:51.380 know exactly what each of us were going to do 00:19:51.380 --> 00:19:54.700 or not do. And it's just one of those things 00:19:54.700 --> 00:19:56.980 that I think, unless you're in law enforcement 00:19:56.980 --> 00:19:58.539 and you're kind of living it every day and having 00:19:58.539 --> 00:20:01.299 to make those decisions on the fly, it's hard 00:20:01.299 --> 00:20:04.470 to appreciate. hearing a discussion between me 00:20:04.470 --> 00:20:06.950 and you about that kind of call is good for people 00:20:06.950 --> 00:20:10.380 to hear. If I was Espinoza's daughter, I'd still 00:20:10.380 --> 00:20:16.940 be pissed at you. She probably is. Her nickname 00:20:16.940 --> 00:20:18.779 though, you know, my nickname was Ed the Fed 00:20:18.779 --> 00:20:22.180 at the office and we nicknamed her J -Fed because 00:20:22.180 --> 00:20:25.700 Jessica Espinoza is J -Fed. So I think we made 00:20:25.700 --> 00:20:27.700 up for it. We gave her a good nickname in the 00:20:27.700 --> 00:20:32.220 office. Good. Anyway, now if the Internal Affairs 00:20:32.220 --> 00:20:35.519 PRU people want to come after me, have at it. 00:20:35.920 --> 00:20:40.029 I flew on a plane without permission. That's 00:20:40.029 --> 00:20:43.069 right. Darn you. I got good notes here if they 00:20:43.069 --> 00:20:46.750 ask me. Exactly. Exactly. All right, my friend. 00:20:46.849 --> 00:20:49.349 Thank you for joining me for a quick bonus episode. 00:20:49.509 --> 00:20:52.089 I appreciate it. When you go out for your, this 00:20:52.089 --> 00:20:54.190 is going to be a bad fire season, I think. So 00:20:54.190 --> 00:20:56.490 when you're flying. I think so too. I always 00:20:56.490 --> 00:20:58.990 think about you during fire season. So be careful, 00:20:59.170 --> 00:21:02.150 fly well, and thank you for doing that. I've 00:21:02.150 --> 00:21:05.210 already been out. Thank you for doing that job. 00:21:05.269 --> 00:21:08.299 I appreciate it. No, my pleasure. All right, 00:21:08.420 --> 00:21:10.299 Corky. That brings us to the end of the bonus 00:21:10.299 --> 00:21:12.000 episode. Thanks, everybody, for tuning in. We'll 00:21:12.000 --> 00:21:12.779 see you next time.