WEBVTT

00:00:00.140 --> 00:00:02.540
If you want to learn more about the topics of

00:00:02.540 --> 00:00:06.219
today's episode, visit the podcast website at

00:00:06.219 --> 00:00:09.339
naturessecretservice .com. Thanks for listening.

00:00:34.120 --> 00:00:37.439
Okay, people, listen up. Here we go. This is

00:00:37.439 --> 00:00:39.420
Nature's Secret Service, the podcast that puts

00:00:39.420 --> 00:00:41.560
you in the room with the men and women of wildlife

00:00:41.560 --> 00:00:44.259
law enforcement. I'm Ed Newcomer, your host,

00:00:44.579 --> 00:00:47.560
and this is the final episode of season two.

00:00:47.899 --> 00:00:50.079
Don't worry, it's not the final episode of the

00:00:50.079 --> 00:00:52.859
entire series, just this season. We're going

00:00:52.859 --> 00:00:54.640
to take a break for the holidays and then we'll

00:00:54.640 --> 00:00:56.579
be hard at work putting together the content

00:00:56.579 --> 00:00:59.560
for season three. Season three, as I've said

00:00:59.560 --> 00:01:02.200
before, is going to be completely devoted to

00:01:02.200 --> 00:01:05.019
wolves and wolf reintroduction in the US and

00:01:05.019 --> 00:01:07.840
the many law enforcement cases that have resulted.

00:01:08.519 --> 00:01:10.719
But we're going to do a deeper dive into wolves,

00:01:10.760 --> 00:01:13.079
and you're going to learn about the ecology of

00:01:13.079 --> 00:01:15.000
wolves, their place in the environment, and their

00:01:15.000 --> 00:01:18.480
impact on both people and their prey species.

00:01:19.139 --> 00:01:21.620
You'll be hearing from some of the best law enforcement

00:01:21.620 --> 00:01:23.379
officers in the country who've worked on law

00:01:23.379 --> 00:01:26.239
enforcement cases But also some of the most knowledgeable

00:01:26.239 --> 00:01:30.260
wolf biologists and ecologists in the world so

00:01:30.260 --> 00:01:33.500
If you haven't signed up on the website already

00:01:33.500 --> 00:01:35.799
and subscribe to make sure you do that because

00:01:35.799 --> 00:01:38.579
that way you'll get Notices about the upcoming

00:01:38.579 --> 00:01:41.859
season 3 and other extras that happen along the

00:01:41.859 --> 00:01:45.799
way Couple of things I want to go over before

00:01:45.799 --> 00:01:48.519
we introduce today's guest one is the the votes

00:01:48.519 --> 00:01:51.879
are in from my previous request for Votes about

00:01:51.879 --> 00:01:55.060
my mustache and it's a unanimous keeper. I'm

00:01:55.060 --> 00:01:58.340
keeping it My my fans want me to keep the mustache

00:01:58.340 --> 00:02:02.980
so it's happening last Soon, I'm gonna add a

00:02:02.980 --> 00:02:05.019
reading list to the website So if you're interested

00:02:05.019 --> 00:02:07.319
in more information about wildlife trafficking

00:02:07.319 --> 00:02:09.919
and law enforcement cases You'll be able to go

00:02:09.919 --> 00:02:11.919
to the website and there'll be a long list of

00:02:11.919 --> 00:02:14.259
books that have been written about different

00:02:14.259 --> 00:02:17.060
wildlife crime cases, wildlife trafficking cases.

00:02:17.759 --> 00:02:21.039
All of them read by me, so they've been vetted

00:02:21.039 --> 00:02:25.900
as good books. Okay, I've got three great guests

00:02:25.900 --> 00:02:28.479
with me today. These are three gentlemen I've

00:02:28.479 --> 00:02:30.539
known for years. I worked with professionally

00:02:30.539 --> 00:02:33.020
while I was a special agent with the U .S. Fish

00:02:33.020 --> 00:02:35.960
and Wildlife Service. And unlike previous guests

00:02:35.960 --> 00:02:38.080
that have been... law enforcement officers for

00:02:38.080 --> 00:02:40.620
the most part. Today, we actually have three

00:02:40.620 --> 00:02:43.939
federal prosecutors, three Assistant United States

00:02:43.939 --> 00:02:46.580
Attorneys who work for the United States Attorney

00:02:46.580 --> 00:02:49.560
for the Central District of California. I've

00:02:49.560 --> 00:02:52.340
got with me Mark Williams, who is the Chief of

00:02:52.340 --> 00:02:54.460
the Environmental Crimes and Consumer Protection

00:02:54.460 --> 00:02:57.039
Division at the U .S. Attorney's Office in Los

00:02:57.039 --> 00:03:00.000
Angeles. Also, Dennis Mitchell, who's an Assistant

00:03:00.000 --> 00:03:02.439
United States Attorney in the Environmental Crimes

00:03:02.439 --> 00:03:05.759
Section and Matt O 'Brien, who's also an assistant

00:03:05.759 --> 00:03:08.199
US attorney in the environmental crime section.

00:03:08.680 --> 00:03:11.120
Guys, thank you so much for joining me on this

00:03:11.120 --> 00:03:13.639
podcast. I've been looking forward to this. It's

00:03:13.639 --> 00:03:15.580
a huge honor to have you guys here. Yeah, you're

00:03:15.580 --> 00:03:17.580
welcome. We're honored to do it. Thanks for having

00:03:17.580 --> 00:03:20.699
us, Ed. It's going to be a fun discussion. If

00:03:20.699 --> 00:03:24.300
you know how we structure this, this is a conversation

00:03:24.300 --> 00:03:26.599
between people who've done the job, who've worked

00:03:26.599 --> 00:03:29.699
together and know each other well. If you slip

00:03:29.699 --> 00:03:32.219
into using acronyms that my audience might not

00:03:32.219 --> 00:03:34.240
know, I'll make sure we back up and we talk about

00:03:34.240 --> 00:03:36.419
what those acronyms mean. We love acronyms. We

00:03:36.419 --> 00:03:38.439
love acronyms in the federal government, that's

00:03:38.439 --> 00:03:42.060
for sure. So I think what I want to start with

00:03:42.060 --> 00:03:44.979
is there's often a lot of confusion among the

00:03:44.979 --> 00:03:46.740
general public, I think, about the difference

00:03:46.740 --> 00:03:50.300
between, you know... a district attorney or a

00:03:50.300 --> 00:03:52.479
state prosecutor versus a federal prosecutor,

00:03:52.639 --> 00:03:55.060
and then also some confusion about what's the

00:03:55.060 --> 00:03:57.659
difference between a US attorney and Department

00:03:57.659 --> 00:04:00.400
of Justice attorneys. So Mark, since you're the

00:04:00.400 --> 00:04:03.219
chief of the unit here in Los Angeles, can you

00:04:03.219 --> 00:04:05.780
explain to my listeners a little bit about what

00:04:05.780 --> 00:04:08.300
is it the United States Attorney's Office does

00:04:08.300 --> 00:04:11.599
and how does it relate to DOJ in Washington DC?

00:04:11.840 --> 00:04:15.719
Sure, sounds good. So just big picture, assisting

00:04:15.719 --> 00:04:18.160
United States attorneys or AUSAs, as we're called,

00:04:18.680 --> 00:04:21.639
are basically federal prosecutors. We enforce

00:04:21.639 --> 00:04:25.319
federal law. Big picture. The DA is the same

00:04:25.319 --> 00:04:28.100
thing, but at the state level. So the DA is employed

00:04:28.100 --> 00:04:31.459
by the county district attorney in Los Angeles

00:04:31.459 --> 00:04:33.240
County. That's a really big office across the

00:04:33.240 --> 00:04:36.480
street from us. But they enforce state law. We

00:04:36.480 --> 00:04:38.879
do felonies and misdemeanors in our office. The

00:04:38.879 --> 00:04:40.899
DA kind of does the same thing on the state side.

00:04:42.469 --> 00:04:45.589
We're all on the federal side under the Department

00:04:45.589 --> 00:04:49.569
of Justice or DOJ. So the Attorney General is

00:04:49.569 --> 00:04:51.050
the head of the Department of Justice and they

00:04:51.050 --> 00:04:53.670
have attorneys back in Washington, D .C. as well

00:04:53.670 --> 00:04:56.089
that work on different types of cases ranging

00:04:56.089 --> 00:04:58.490
from terrorism or wildlife crimes or violent

00:04:58.490 --> 00:05:01.329
crimes. And then each district in the United

00:05:01.329 --> 00:05:03.949
States has its own U .S. Attorney's Office. So

00:05:03.949 --> 00:05:06.189
in California there's the Central District which

00:05:06.189 --> 00:05:09.769
is headquartered in Los Angeles but encompasses

00:05:10.120 --> 00:05:15.519
San Luis Obispo County, Ventura County, Orange

00:05:15.519 --> 00:05:19.720
County, San Bernardino County, big area. Then

00:05:19.720 --> 00:05:21.279
you have the Southern District in San Diego,

00:05:21.420 --> 00:05:23.160
you have the Northern District in San Francisco,

00:05:23.220 --> 00:05:26.000
and then you have the Eastern District. And then

00:05:26.000 --> 00:05:28.060
each state is kind of the same. They have one

00:05:28.060 --> 00:05:30.399
or more districts in each state that's headed

00:05:30.399 --> 00:05:33.939
by a U .S. attorney. Our U .S. attorney, as the

00:05:33.939 --> 00:05:36.540
others are, are appointed by the president. So

00:05:36.540 --> 00:05:39.139
they can change from administration to administration.

00:05:39.449 --> 00:05:41.709
But the mission is essentially still the same.

00:05:41.889 --> 00:05:43.930
We enforce federal law. We prosecute federal

00:05:43.930 --> 00:05:47.750
crimes. And how does that relate to when sometimes

00:05:47.750 --> 00:05:50.189
you hear about DOJ in Washington DC? Because

00:05:50.189 --> 00:05:52.870
I know Department of Justice does have an environmental

00:05:52.870 --> 00:05:55.149
crime section. So how do you guys work together?

00:05:55.269 --> 00:05:56.949
You've got an environmental crime section here

00:05:56.949 --> 00:05:59.370
in LA, but there's an environmental crime section

00:05:59.370 --> 00:06:02.430
in Washington DC, too, at DOJ. Yeah. How does

00:06:02.430 --> 00:06:05.660
that work? So DOJ's environmental crime section

00:06:05.660 --> 00:06:09.120
known as ECS, they have the ability to work cases

00:06:09.120 --> 00:06:11.819
nationwide. So they could work a case in Iowa,

00:06:11.939 --> 00:06:14.120
they could work a case in Florida, they could

00:06:14.120 --> 00:06:16.120
work a case here in Los Angeles and partner with

00:06:16.120 --> 00:06:18.959
us. Not every U .S. Attorney's office has an

00:06:18.959 --> 00:06:21.139
environmental crime section like we do. We're

00:06:21.139 --> 00:06:23.920
pretty specialized in our ability to do that

00:06:23.920 --> 00:06:26.519
because of where we're situated with the ocean

00:06:26.519 --> 00:06:28.620
here and all the national forest land and everything.

00:06:29.139 --> 00:06:31.600
It's become a priority to work these cases out

00:06:31.600 --> 00:06:34.439
here. But really because we have our own section

00:06:34.439 --> 00:06:37.800
out here. We'll partner with ECS But they won't

00:06:37.800 --> 00:06:40.720
do cases by themselves out here You know if there's

00:06:40.720 --> 00:06:44.259
a case maybe in Idaho or Montana ECS would come

00:06:44.259 --> 00:06:46.540
in and handle that case if it's a wolf poaching

00:06:46.540 --> 00:06:49.139
case or something like that out here the attorneys

00:06:49.139 --> 00:06:51.740
in our section do all those cases ourselves right

00:06:51.740 --> 00:06:56.399
and you know in I came to Los Angeles as a federal

00:06:56.399 --> 00:06:59.420
agent in spring of 2003 after I got out of the

00:06:59.420 --> 00:07:04.040
Academy and it was such a treat to be a wildlife

00:07:04.040 --> 00:07:07.439
federal agent in Central District of California,

00:07:07.500 --> 00:07:10.800
mainly, who had access to an environmental crime

00:07:10.800 --> 00:07:13.300
section. Like you said, not every United States

00:07:13.300 --> 00:07:15.160
Attorney's Office around the country has one.

00:07:15.199 --> 00:07:17.040
Most of them don't. Most of them don't. The great

00:07:17.040 --> 00:07:19.439
majority do not. Yeah, Dennis, I mean, do you,

00:07:19.439 --> 00:07:22.920
I think Miami maybe does, but it might only be

00:07:22.920 --> 00:07:25.139
one prosecutor. Yeah, what you typically will

00:07:25.139 --> 00:07:27.139
have is in some of the districts at the U .S.

00:07:27.220 --> 00:07:28.939
Attorney's Office, there'll be one prosecutor,

00:07:29.000 --> 00:07:32.399
maybe two who specialize. in environmental crimes

00:07:32.399 --> 00:07:34.720
and in wildlife crimes, but typically there's

00:07:34.720 --> 00:07:36.879
not a section. It's extremely unusual to have

00:07:36.879 --> 00:07:39.600
a devoted section to the area of enforcement.

00:07:39.839 --> 00:07:42.699
It's super lucky because it has been maintained

00:07:42.699 --> 00:07:46.040
in Los Angeles, regardless of what administration

00:07:46.040 --> 00:07:50.959
is in power in Washington DC, which is great.

00:07:52.459 --> 00:07:56.519
Wildlife crime in particular, but I think environmental

00:07:56.519 --> 00:07:59.029
crime in general is pretty bipartisan. issue.

00:07:59.170 --> 00:08:02.089
I mean, people are opposed to it on a bipartisan

00:08:02.089 --> 00:08:05.709
basis. So that's great. And it was always a great

00:08:05.709 --> 00:08:11.990
tool. Because to explain to listeners, if you

00:08:11.990 --> 00:08:14.089
are in a district where a United States attorney

00:08:14.089 --> 00:08:16.189
does not have an environmental crime section,

00:08:16.589 --> 00:08:18.490
then if you're a US Fish and Wildlife Service

00:08:18.490 --> 00:08:20.250
agent and you have a case, you have to take it

00:08:20.250 --> 00:08:23.290
to general crimes at whatever US attorney's office.

00:08:23.290 --> 00:08:26.540
And there, you're competing with FBI agents who

00:08:26.540 --> 00:08:29.360
have bank robbery cases, terrorism cases, DEA

00:08:29.360 --> 00:08:31.860
agents who have drug cases, ATF agents who have

00:08:31.860 --> 00:08:35.000
gun cases. And so you're, you know, you're often

00:08:35.000 --> 00:08:37.759
trying to sell your case where it was great to

00:08:37.759 --> 00:08:39.559
be able to come to you guys. It's a good point.

00:08:39.639 --> 00:08:41.519
And I think it works both ways. So I think the

00:08:41.519 --> 00:08:43.799
only reason we have a section is because we had

00:08:43.799 --> 00:08:46.559
great agents and have great agents like you who've

00:08:46.559 --> 00:08:48.799
done undercover work, you know, on the proactive

00:08:48.799 --> 00:08:52.240
side, who monitor the ports, who monitor, you

00:08:52.240 --> 00:08:54.000
know, things coming in and out of the district.

00:08:54.819 --> 00:08:57.080
You know, we've had great relationships with

00:08:57.080 --> 00:08:59.940
Fish and Wildlife Service over the years, you

00:08:59.940 --> 00:09:02.200
know, in different agencies. And so we only can

00:09:02.200 --> 00:09:03.980
really do the work we do because we have agents

00:09:03.980 --> 00:09:05.940
like you out there kind of originating these

00:09:05.940 --> 00:09:08.039
cases and catching the bad guys. So it does work

00:09:08.039 --> 00:09:10.419
both ways as a partnership. Well, I'll tell you

00:09:10.419 --> 00:09:14.740
a secret. When I was an agent in LA, I was always

00:09:14.740 --> 00:09:19.429
told by my superiors, don't... F up the relationship

00:09:19.429 --> 00:09:22.950
with the US Attorney's Office. That's what we

00:09:22.950 --> 00:09:25.529
were told. Only take them great cases and don't

00:09:25.529 --> 00:09:28.110
piss them off because we need that good relationship

00:09:28.110 --> 00:09:30.149
with our prosecutors. And that was drilled into

00:09:30.149 --> 00:09:32.970
me from the very first day. It was told to me,

00:09:33.070 --> 00:09:35.490
I think, on my first week, we have a great relationship

00:09:35.490 --> 00:09:37.750
with the US Attorney's Office. Don't F it up.

00:09:40.690 --> 00:09:43.529
Over the years, you guys have handled some of

00:09:43.529 --> 00:09:47.169
the best cases. done in the country related to

00:09:47.169 --> 00:09:49.789
wildlife trafficking and wildlife crime. And

00:09:49.789 --> 00:09:52.210
I want to ask each of you to kind of reminisce

00:09:52.210 --> 00:09:54.309
a little bit about maybe your favorite case or

00:09:54.309 --> 00:09:56.190
two. And Matt, I'm going to start with you because

00:09:56.190 --> 00:09:58.250
you haven't said anything yet. I don't want to

00:09:58.250 --> 00:09:59.870
put you on the spot, but have you thought about

00:09:59.870 --> 00:10:02.690
any of the cases that kind of stood out for you

00:10:02.690 --> 00:10:05.769
working in this unit? Sure. One of my favorite

00:10:05.769 --> 00:10:10.750
cases was you were a big help on and it was a

00:10:10.750 --> 00:10:14.190
plant smuggler. OK, time out. Just so you know,

00:10:14.269 --> 00:10:15.990
you guys don't have to talk about cases you did

00:10:15.990 --> 00:10:19.110
with me. I just want you to know. I thought that

00:10:19.110 --> 00:10:21.549
was required. That's the whole purpose of it.

00:10:21.789 --> 00:10:26.629
I'll go on anyway. Anyway, so these guys, they

00:10:26.629 --> 00:10:30.529
were Koreans. And in Korea, on the black market,

00:10:30.590 --> 00:10:33.889
there's a huge demand for Dudleya plants, which

00:10:33.889 --> 00:10:36.490
are kind of small, succulent plants that take

00:10:36.490 --> 00:10:40.870
forever to grow in nurseries. So there's a premium

00:10:40.870 --> 00:10:45.929
on Dudleya plants that are taken from the wild.

00:10:46.710 --> 00:10:50.149
And so these guys would fly in from Korea to

00:10:50.149 --> 00:10:54.570
California and go up to real remote state parks

00:10:54.570 --> 00:10:57.269
up in Northern California, typically right on

00:10:57.269 --> 00:11:00.309
the coast, which is where these succulent plants

00:11:00.309 --> 00:11:03.750
grow. They would rip out of the ground, live

00:11:03.750 --> 00:11:07.809
plants, thousands of plants, drive them back

00:11:07.809 --> 00:11:12.379
to their nursery in San Diego. Then bring them

00:11:12.379 --> 00:11:16.620
up here to Compton and export them to Korea and

00:11:16.620 --> 00:11:21.200
so working closely with the state California

00:11:21.200 --> 00:11:25.080
Department of Fish and Wildlife They were they

00:11:25.080 --> 00:11:27.679
were caught with you know again thousands of

00:11:27.679 --> 00:11:30.779
these plants at the export company in Compton

00:11:30.779 --> 00:11:35.299
are basically caught red -handed The the state

00:11:35.299 --> 00:11:37.860
brought charges the the district attorney up

00:11:37.860 --> 00:11:40.600
in Del Norte County And then we also brought

00:11:40.600 --> 00:11:44.460
federal charges against them. Right after we

00:11:44.460 --> 00:11:48.200
did, two of them, who we had been led to believe

00:11:48.200 --> 00:11:52.639
didn't have passports, because the state, the

00:11:52.639 --> 00:11:55.919
DA had seized their passports, went to the Korean

00:11:55.919 --> 00:11:58.460
embassy and said they had lost their passports

00:11:58.460 --> 00:12:02.200
and got new ones. So they then fled on foot to

00:12:02.200 --> 00:12:06.029
Tijuana to escape the federal case. And they

00:12:06.029 --> 00:12:09.110
succeeded. They flew, got on the first flight

00:12:09.110 --> 00:12:12.009
out of Tijuana back to Korea, I think, through

00:12:12.009 --> 00:12:15.309
China. So we thought we were kind of out of luck.

00:12:15.490 --> 00:12:17.590
We had caught one of them, but he was kind of

00:12:17.590 --> 00:12:22.429
the low -hanging, the least culpable guy. And

00:12:22.429 --> 00:12:26.429
then where you came in was just kind of by luck.

00:12:27.509 --> 00:12:30.720
The main guy whose name was Byung -Soo Kim. was

00:12:30.720 --> 00:12:33.720
caught in South Africa doing the same exact thing,

00:12:34.360 --> 00:12:37.620
basically the same thing, stealing live plants

00:12:37.620 --> 00:12:42.679
from state parks or national parks in South Africa,

00:12:42.779 --> 00:12:45.360
trying to smuggle them back to Korea. And just

00:12:45.360 --> 00:12:49.000
by luck, you were the Fish and Wildlife Services

00:12:49.000 --> 00:12:53.820
attache in South Africa at the time. So we were

00:12:53.820 --> 00:12:56.799
able to extradite him to the US, which is a lot

00:12:56.799 --> 00:12:58.919
of work, as you know, and we never could have

00:12:58.919 --> 00:13:02.149
done it without. your help and the help of the

00:13:02.149 --> 00:13:05.009
South African prosecutors. So the guy spent about

00:13:05.009 --> 00:13:08.730
a year in kind of a notorious South African prison

00:13:08.730 --> 00:13:11.850
awaiting extradition. Then we brought him back

00:13:11.850 --> 00:13:15.190
here. He was sentenced to, I think, two years

00:13:15.190 --> 00:13:18.129
in federal prison. And then he was actually brought

00:13:18.129 --> 00:13:20.690
up to Del Norte County where they'd been waiting

00:13:20.690 --> 00:13:23.149
patiently for him all this time. Right. And he

00:13:23.149 --> 00:13:26.049
was sentenced up there. I think he got a few

00:13:26.049 --> 00:13:29.169
years up there. I think so. So it was just a...

00:13:28.879 --> 00:13:31.000
I mean, the case had a lot of ups and downs,

00:13:31.019 --> 00:13:32.860
obviously, but I thought it was a great example

00:13:32.860 --> 00:13:36.639
of us working with local partners up in Northern

00:13:36.639 --> 00:13:39.519
California and then working with the South African

00:13:39.519 --> 00:13:43.679
prosecutors to nab this guy. Yeah, I agree. I

00:13:43.679 --> 00:13:45.659
also enjoyed that case for the same reasons.

00:13:46.299 --> 00:13:49.639
But is that what really like? you liked about

00:13:49.639 --> 00:13:52.159
that case was just the interagency cooperation

00:13:52.159 --> 00:13:54.600
or was it the plants that you liked so much about

00:13:54.600 --> 00:13:57.539
it? Well, I mean both. I didn't know anything

00:13:57.539 --> 00:14:01.139
about these Dudley plants before the case. It

00:14:01.139 --> 00:14:04.100
was horrible. They would just go to like a coastal

00:14:04.100 --> 00:14:07.740
bluff and rip out thousands of plants. These

00:14:07.740 --> 00:14:10.399
plants take a long time to grow in the wild.

00:14:12.300 --> 00:14:15.039
the destruction they were causing in these beautiful

00:14:15.039 --> 00:14:18.639
state parks up north was terrible. And I think

00:14:18.639 --> 00:14:24.240
after the state warden seized the plants, I think

00:14:24.240 --> 00:14:27.200
they were actually able to replant them in the

00:14:27.200 --> 00:14:30.460
wild. So I'm sure not all of them survived, but

00:14:30.460 --> 00:14:33.399
that was a great result. Yeah, that was a cool

00:14:33.399 --> 00:14:36.639
result. And Savannah Morgan was the state game

00:14:36.639 --> 00:14:38.500
warden who worked on that, and she was a guest.

00:14:38.949 --> 00:14:41.769
during season one and told her side of the story.

00:14:41.850 --> 00:14:44.590
So it's great to have you telling the prosecution

00:14:44.590 --> 00:14:47.090
side. One thing I wanted to ask you, you mentioned

00:14:47.090 --> 00:14:50.870
that the defendant, he was a guy named Byung

00:14:50.870 --> 00:14:53.809
Soo Kim, he was charged in state court and federal.

00:14:54.029 --> 00:14:57.210
How does that work when, how is it that the feds

00:14:57.210 --> 00:14:59.029
can also charge somebody that's been charged

00:14:59.029 --> 00:15:01.909
in state court? Well, it doesn't happen all the

00:15:01.909 --> 00:15:06.450
time, but typically we we will consider federal

00:15:06.450 --> 00:15:08.710
charges against someone who's already been charged

00:15:08.710 --> 00:15:11.470
in state court if the kind of the nature of the

00:15:11.470 --> 00:15:15.509
federal crime is different. Got it. So I don't

00:15:15.509 --> 00:15:17.509
recall specifically what the state charges were,

00:15:17.509 --> 00:15:22.149
but I think it was just violating state law that

00:15:22.149 --> 00:15:24.850
says you can't rip out plants out of state parks.

00:15:25.450 --> 00:15:28.850
Right. When we were presented with the case,

00:15:29.230 --> 00:15:32.590
it was as a violation of the Federal Lacey Act,

00:15:32.769 --> 00:15:36.360
which is a different crime. The nature of that

00:15:36.360 --> 00:15:38.899
crime was that they were taking plants that had

00:15:38.899 --> 00:15:43.039
been basically stolen in violation of state law,

00:15:43.259 --> 00:15:45.539
and then trying to export them out of the country.

00:15:46.340 --> 00:15:50.580
So because our focus was on the attempted export

00:15:50.580 --> 00:15:53.299
of these plants, it was a different crime. And

00:15:53.299 --> 00:15:56.740
that's a situation where we'll step in and charge

00:15:56.740 --> 00:15:59.330
federally, even though there's a pre -existing

00:15:59.330 --> 00:16:01.970
state case. You know, I'm interested to see what

00:16:01.970 --> 00:16:03.809
all three of you guys think about this, but I've

00:16:03.809 --> 00:16:07.649
always viewed that as the place where the federal

00:16:07.649 --> 00:16:10.409
government can really help the states, right?

00:16:10.789 --> 00:16:14.389
So if somebody does something illegal in violation

00:16:14.389 --> 00:16:16.389
of state law, whether it's a wildlife crime or

00:16:16.389 --> 00:16:19.230
stealing a car, and they move it across state

00:16:19.230 --> 00:16:21.529
lines, it's very difficult for states to like

00:16:21.529 --> 00:16:23.889
work those cases outside their jurisdiction.

00:16:24.139 --> 00:16:26.940
But of course, the federal government has nationwide

00:16:26.940 --> 00:16:29.659
jurisdiction and a lot of international resources.

00:16:30.620 --> 00:16:33.360
So that Lacey Act triggering allows the federal

00:16:33.360 --> 00:16:35.860
government to come in and really help the state

00:16:35.860 --> 00:16:39.580
stop this kind of crime by bringing the power

00:16:39.580 --> 00:16:41.639
of the federal government and federal legislation

00:16:41.639 --> 00:16:43.879
to it. What are your thoughts on that? Did you

00:16:43.879 --> 00:16:47.460
see it in that way? Yes, we're charging a federal

00:16:47.460 --> 00:16:49.789
crime. this is a way for us to really help the

00:16:49.789 --> 00:16:52.629
state protect its resources. Absolutely. And

00:16:52.629 --> 00:16:55.830
often at the state level, the penalties for environmental

00:16:55.830 --> 00:16:59.470
crimes are very low. Whereas in a federal case,

00:16:59.870 --> 00:17:02.730
if there's a lot of money at stake, even in a

00:17:02.730 --> 00:17:05.890
kind of a wildlife or plant context, the penalties

00:17:05.890 --> 00:17:10.029
can be more severe. In our case, it was the state

00:17:10.029 --> 00:17:13.730
game wardens who had done 95 % of the investigatory

00:17:13.730 --> 00:17:16.299
work. They did it. have done an incredible job

00:17:16.299 --> 00:17:19.279
surveilling these guys up and down the state.

00:17:20.660 --> 00:17:22.660
Just incredible, probably the best surveillance

00:17:22.660 --> 00:17:26.220
I've ever seen in a case. They're good. Once

00:17:26.220 --> 00:17:29.420
we've caught the Byungsu Kim in South Africa,

00:17:29.619 --> 00:17:32.059
I thought that was another instance where the

00:17:32.059 --> 00:17:34.599
federal government really has resources to get

00:17:34.599 --> 00:17:39.059
this guy back. The state is able to extradite.

00:17:39.279 --> 00:17:42.359
Folks but it's a lot easier for the the feds

00:17:42.359 --> 00:17:45.359
to do it. Mm -hmm. And so I was happy to that

00:17:45.359 --> 00:17:48.200
we could Play a role in supporting the state

00:17:48.200 --> 00:17:52.619
case by kind of handling the extra extradition

00:17:52.619 --> 00:17:54.539
Mark intense you kind of agree with that in terms

00:17:54.539 --> 00:17:56.799
of how the feds can benefit state Yeah, I mean,

00:17:56.980 --> 00:17:59.079
I think the other piece of it is sometimes you'll

00:17:59.079 --> 00:18:02.039
have a wildlife trafficker or smuggler who's

00:18:02.119 --> 00:18:04.099
dealing in rhino horn or other things, but they're

00:18:04.099 --> 00:18:06.279
also committing tax fraud. Right. They're also

00:18:06.279 --> 00:18:08.400
laundering money. Those are things that the federal

00:18:08.400 --> 00:18:11.200
government has jurisdiction over and the penalties

00:18:11.200 --> 00:18:13.519
are stiff. You know, if you indict somebody for

00:18:13.519 --> 00:18:15.759
tax fraud or money laundering, they're going

00:18:15.759 --> 00:18:18.740
to prison for a long time. Right. And federally,

00:18:19.079 --> 00:18:21.079
they serve all of their prison sentence. There's

00:18:21.079 --> 00:18:24.529
no parole. They can get credit to get out a little

00:18:24.529 --> 00:18:26.750
bit early, but you're only cutting maybe 20%.

00:18:26.750 --> 00:18:29.210
They'll serve usually at least 80 % of their

00:18:29.210 --> 00:18:31.930
sentence. On the state side, they go to prison,

00:18:31.950 --> 00:18:35.630
and it can be for a short period of time, low

00:18:35.630 --> 00:18:37.670
months, even though they're sentenced to like

00:18:37.670 --> 00:18:40.390
three or four years. So when we come in against

00:18:40.390 --> 00:18:43.069
these serious offenders like the Dudley, a smuggler

00:18:43.069 --> 00:18:45.329
who's traveling internationally and involving

00:18:45.329 --> 00:18:48.410
multiple countries and states, we're using our

00:18:48.410 --> 00:18:51.319
resources to really put away some of the heaviest

00:18:51.319 --> 00:18:54.180
traffickers in the country. And the state doesn't

00:18:54.180 --> 00:18:56.279
always have the capacity or the ability to do

00:18:56.279 --> 00:19:01.539
that. Cool. Yeah. It's a good point. And the

00:19:01.539 --> 00:19:03.880
minute you have interstate trafficking, our jurisdiction

00:19:03.880 --> 00:19:06.930
kicks in. Right. So we look for that. And so

00:19:06.930 --> 00:19:09.069
a case may not go federal if everything was taking

00:19:09.069 --> 00:19:11.950
place within the state. Some of those statutes,

00:19:11.950 --> 00:19:13.849
it depends on the interstate commerce connection,

00:19:14.150 --> 00:19:16.650
which we're usually able to establish. And international,

00:19:16.789 --> 00:19:18.750
of course, triggers smuggling, which is a serious

00:19:18.750 --> 00:19:21.069
felony, right? It's a very serious felony. Per

00:19:21.069 --> 00:19:23.410
se, right. Yeah, yeah. You know, I'll tell you

00:19:23.410 --> 00:19:25.829
just before we get to Dennis and Mark's favorite

00:19:25.829 --> 00:19:29.289
cases, I'll tell you just some funny anecdotes

00:19:29.289 --> 00:19:33.480
or background. You mentioned that you were real

00:19:33.480 --> 00:19:36.299
happy with how you worked with the foreign prosecutors

00:19:36.299 --> 00:19:39.279
in South Africa on that case. And just so my

00:19:39.279 --> 00:19:42.599
listeners know, starting in 2012, the US Fish

00:19:42.599 --> 00:19:45.380
and Wildlife Service started basing special agents

00:19:45.380 --> 00:19:48.259
overseas. I think there were about, at its height,

00:19:48.319 --> 00:19:50.720
there were about 12 of them based overseas. And

00:19:50.720 --> 00:19:52.880
their job really was to provide that kind of

00:19:52.880 --> 00:19:55.339
liaison work with foreign countries on law enforcement.

00:19:55.900 --> 00:19:59.400
I happened to be in South Africa. Byung -Soo

00:19:59.400 --> 00:20:03.089
King. jumps bail basically goes into Mexico and

00:20:03.089 --> 00:20:05.269
flees now there's a warrant for him in the US

00:20:05.269 --> 00:20:10.710
and My colleague Aaron Dean here in LA had just

00:20:10.710 --> 00:20:15.109
remembered off the top of her head that At some

00:20:15.109 --> 00:20:18.690
point they found a document in one of these guys

00:20:18.690 --> 00:20:22.349
Luggage or on his person that referenced a plant

00:20:22.349 --> 00:20:26.049
nursery in Cape Town, South Africa So she just

00:20:26.049 --> 00:20:29.210
called me long distance says have you ever heard

00:20:29.210 --> 00:20:33.259
of this? And I said, no, never heard of it. But

00:20:33.259 --> 00:20:35.700
tell me about this case. So she tells me about

00:20:35.700 --> 00:20:38.740
it. And I said, you know, there's only three,

00:20:39.019 --> 00:20:41.160
maybe four places in the world that these plants

00:20:41.160 --> 00:20:43.920
are found. He knows he can't go back to the states

00:20:43.920 --> 00:20:46.200
now because he's got a warrant. He's going to

00:20:46.200 --> 00:20:48.900
come here. So I went and I briefed the South

00:20:48.900 --> 00:20:50.460
African police. I said, here's what happened

00:20:50.460 --> 00:20:52.559
in the states. This guy's probably coming here.

00:20:53.000 --> 00:20:55.359
You might want to be on the lookout. And I thought,

00:20:55.460 --> 00:20:57.720
oh, I'll never hear about this again, right?

00:20:58.029 --> 00:21:01.210
And I swear, 10 days later, the South African

00:21:01.210 --> 00:21:04.190
police colonel in Cape Town gets a hold of me

00:21:04.190 --> 00:21:07.069
and says, hey, we just got your guy. And he had

00:21:07.069 --> 00:21:09.430
a million dollars worth of succulents in his

00:21:09.430 --> 00:21:12.829
hotel room when we did a search warrant. So that's

00:21:12.829 --> 00:21:15.309
super cool, right? But where it got even cooler

00:21:15.309 --> 00:21:18.690
was they wanted to prosecute him in South Africa.

00:21:19.089 --> 00:21:22.819
And we wanted to extradite him. But the first

00:21:22.819 --> 00:21:25.140
thing that I did was I reached out to the prosecutor

00:21:25.140 --> 00:21:27.339
in South Africa and said how can we help you

00:21:27.339 --> 00:21:31.339
make your case first, right? So they ended up

00:21:31.339 --> 00:21:33.119
making a great case against him They got the

00:21:33.119 --> 00:21:37.200
highest monetary penalty ever for any kind of

00:21:37.200 --> 00:21:39.220
plant case in the history of South Africa on

00:21:39.220 --> 00:21:42.960
that case and Because we cooperated with them.

00:21:42.960 --> 00:21:45.660
They were more than happy to help us get him

00:21:45.660 --> 00:21:49.609
extradited and because of that I remember I used

00:21:49.609 --> 00:21:52.250
to have meetings with the Homeland Security attache

00:21:52.250 --> 00:21:55.809
and the FBI attache or the legat regularly in

00:21:55.809 --> 00:22:00.029
Pretoria and the FBI legat was trying to get

00:22:00.029 --> 00:22:02.509
a drug smuggler extradited from South Africa

00:22:02.509 --> 00:22:04.430
and she'd been trying for about a year and a

00:22:04.430 --> 00:22:06.650
half and she couldn't get it done and how long

00:22:06.650 --> 00:22:09.849
it took us like six months to get this guy extradited

00:22:09.849 --> 00:22:12.710
from South Africa, right? Thanks to you. Well,

00:22:12.809 --> 00:22:15.829
I think it was really thanks to all of us, because

00:22:15.829 --> 00:22:18.049
you were very cooperative with the South Africans

00:22:18.049 --> 00:22:20.089
as well, right? We didn't come in as Americans

00:22:20.089 --> 00:22:22.730
who were trying to say, you need to do this for

00:22:22.730 --> 00:22:25.190
us. We kind of came in with, how can we help

00:22:25.190 --> 00:22:28.170
you? And when we're done with that, we hope you'll

00:22:28.170 --> 00:22:31.930
help us, right? And that went a long way. And

00:22:31.930 --> 00:22:34.529
at the end, the FBI legat comes into my office.

00:22:34.569 --> 00:22:36.269
She's like, how the hell did you get this guy

00:22:36.269 --> 00:22:37.990
out of the country in six months? I can't get

00:22:37.990 --> 00:22:40.539
this drug dealer out. It was great. It was a

00:22:40.539 --> 00:22:42.579
great case all around. I love that one, too.

00:22:42.799 --> 00:22:45.380
Yeah, I think it's probably the quickest extradition

00:22:45.380 --> 00:22:47.700
I've ever heard of. Extraditing people can be

00:22:47.700 --> 00:22:51.059
really difficult, if not impossible, depending

00:22:51.059 --> 00:22:53.539
on what country you're dealing with and all of

00:22:53.539 --> 00:22:57.920
the political factors. I think it was under a

00:22:57.920 --> 00:22:59.839
year from when he was caught in South Africa

00:22:59.839 --> 00:23:03.640
to when he got off a plane here in LA. courtesy

00:23:03.640 --> 00:23:05.920
of the marshals, which is kind of unheard of.

00:23:06.200 --> 00:23:08.940
It was crazy. And the real craziest part of that

00:23:08.940 --> 00:23:12.779
case, and we'll end on this part, is that I was

00:23:12.779 --> 00:23:15.279
in South Africa when he got arrested there. And

00:23:15.279 --> 00:23:20.079
my time, my five -year tour ended right around

00:23:20.079 --> 00:23:23.140
the time he was extradited back. So the day he

00:23:23.140 --> 00:23:24.839
arrived in Los Angeles, he arrived like about

00:23:24.839 --> 00:23:28.029
11 o 'clock at night in LA, at LAX. I was waiting

00:23:28.029 --> 00:23:31.289
for him. I actually picked him up, took him to

00:23:31.289 --> 00:23:34.349
jail on that night when he came in. His head

00:23:34.349 --> 00:23:36.450
must have been spinning. I doubt he was happy

00:23:36.450 --> 00:23:41.470
to see you. I mean, I think that has tremendous

00:23:41.470 --> 00:23:43.730
deterrence, because he must think, holy smokes,

00:23:44.089 --> 00:23:48.769
these guys on a plant case? I couldn't get anything

00:23:48.769 --> 00:23:51.890
past them. That's good stuff. I like that case

00:23:51.890 --> 00:23:53.210
too, Matt. That was a good one. But you've done

00:23:53.210 --> 00:23:55.650
a lot of cool cases. And we were just talking

00:23:55.650 --> 00:23:57.349
before we started this recording. You've got

00:23:57.349 --> 00:23:59.730
one going on right now that I guarantee you,

00:23:59.730 --> 00:24:01.690
you're going to be back here for another episode.

00:24:02.170 --> 00:24:05.930
So you're already booked. It's a deal. It's an

00:24:05.930 --> 00:24:07.750
ongoing case, so I can't really talk about it.

00:24:07.950 --> 00:24:12.210
But it involves kind of a colorful cast of wildlife

00:24:12.210 --> 00:24:13.970
smugglers. It's a good one. When we can tell

00:24:13.970 --> 00:24:16.390
that one, I think my audience will be like, holy

00:24:16.390 --> 00:24:21.009
shit. We can curse on this podcast if you want

00:24:21.009 --> 00:24:23.930
to. Dennis, tell us about some of your great

00:24:23.930 --> 00:24:25.849
memories. How long have you been with the US

00:24:25.849 --> 00:24:28.150
Attorney's Office? 23 years. 23 years. And how

00:24:28.150 --> 00:24:30.829
long in the environmental crimes? I think since

00:24:30.829 --> 00:24:33.609
2008. Yeah, it's been a while. Yeah. So a lot

00:24:33.609 --> 00:24:36.049
of experience. You have a depth of knowledge

00:24:36.049 --> 00:24:37.910
and you've done a lot of cases. You and I did

00:24:37.910 --> 00:24:39.670
a couple of trials together. We went to trial.

00:24:39.670 --> 00:24:41.549
We had a great one. The one I was going to discuss

00:24:41.549 --> 00:24:44.589
was the Jerry snap case. Oh, Jerry. I thought

00:24:44.589 --> 00:24:47.150
was, you know, because it was it wasn't a major

00:24:47.150 --> 00:24:50.009
type case. It dealt with a violation of the Endangered

00:24:50.009 --> 00:24:52.410
Species Act. But there's some interesting things

00:24:52.410 --> 00:24:54.210
we learned from it, which I think the audience

00:24:54.210 --> 00:24:57.390
will should know, for instance. And by the way,

00:24:57.410 --> 00:24:58.869
at the very beginning, you were mentioning how.

00:24:59.150 --> 00:25:01.410
There isn't much dispute about protecting wildlife

00:25:01.410 --> 00:25:04.069
and so forth. I just learned the other day that

00:25:04.069 --> 00:25:06.109
the Endangered Species Act, which was sort of

00:25:06.109 --> 00:25:09.329
like one of the first things to protect the environment,

00:25:09.710 --> 00:25:13.930
federal acts, I think it was inspired or supported

00:25:13.930 --> 00:25:17.230
by President Nixon in the late 60s. That's right.

00:25:18.309 --> 00:25:22.569
So our friend Jerry Snap, this was kind of a

00:25:22.569 --> 00:25:25.230
funny factual scenario as well. And of course,

00:25:25.450 --> 00:25:26.970
this case went to trial, and you and I did the

00:25:26.970 --> 00:25:30.099
trial, and we had a It was a fun trial. There

00:25:30.099 --> 00:25:32.859
was an elephant, an Asian elephant at the LA

00:25:32.859 --> 00:25:36.319
Zoo. Her name was Annie. And she passed away.

00:25:36.880 --> 00:25:39.180
What she passed away from, I'm not sure. It was

00:25:39.180 --> 00:25:41.059
Shigella, of all things. Is that what it was?

00:25:41.059 --> 00:25:43.680
Yeah. I can't even really describe what Shigella

00:25:43.680 --> 00:25:47.539
is. But it causes a lot of diarrhea and dehydration.

00:25:47.539 --> 00:25:50.519
So that's what kills you. And she ended up, you

00:25:50.519 --> 00:25:53.079
know, the carcass, I guess they couldn't, from

00:25:53.079 --> 00:25:55.480
what I understood was the body couldn't be, the

00:25:55.480 --> 00:25:57.980
carcass could not be incinerated. at the zoo.

00:25:59.079 --> 00:26:02.980
So the carcass was sent to a rendering plant.

00:26:03.960 --> 00:26:06.539
What's a rendering plant? But I learned that

00:26:06.539 --> 00:26:09.859
that's where animals are processed into product,

00:26:10.880 --> 00:26:14.119
like into soap, for example, and then sold. So

00:26:14.119 --> 00:26:16.279
the carcass was sent to this rendering plant.

00:26:17.519 --> 00:26:20.039
And one of the guys working there, I guess the

00:26:20.039 --> 00:26:24.430
leg and the head of the elephant, of Annie, Was

00:26:24.430 --> 00:26:26.609
offered by one of the employees there to Jerry

00:26:26.609 --> 00:26:28.809
snap and this was kind of a he was a very colorful

00:26:28.809 --> 00:26:32.109
personality He was older guy and he spent probably

00:26:32.109 --> 00:26:34.410
a very good chunk of his life collecting all

00:26:34.410 --> 00:26:37.670
sorts of animal artifacts Mm -hmm, and he was

00:26:37.670 --> 00:26:39.789
able to I don't if he paid for it But he somehow

00:26:39.789 --> 00:26:42.970
got his hands on this head of an elephant and

00:26:42.970 --> 00:26:44.930
I think maybe the leg as well That's about the

00:26:44.930 --> 00:26:47.450
leg, but he definitely got the head right and

00:26:47.450 --> 00:26:51.109
he took this thing to his home and He wanted

00:26:51.109 --> 00:26:55.170
to get What he did was he put beetles on the

00:26:55.170 --> 00:26:57.269
head. This is a little gruesome, but the beetles

00:26:57.269 --> 00:26:59.829
over the course of many months or years eat away

00:26:59.829 --> 00:27:02.430
at the flesh. In the end, he had a perfectly

00:27:02.430 --> 00:27:06.230
preserved elephant skull. And it's kind of a

00:27:06.230 --> 00:27:08.349
rare thing to have. And I think, you know, and

00:27:08.349 --> 00:27:10.230
eventually he fell on harder times, I guess,

00:27:10.230 --> 00:27:14.049
and he wanted to sell it. And he made an offer.

00:27:14.210 --> 00:27:17.009
He put it out on Craigslist and he announced,

00:27:17.009 --> 00:27:18.890
you know, that this was he was offering to sell

00:27:18.890 --> 00:27:20.960
this thing for I think he was trying to get $9

00:27:20.960 --> 00:27:24.279
,000 for it. Now, the Endangered Species Act

00:27:24.279 --> 00:27:27.039
prohibits you not just from trafficking in live

00:27:27.039 --> 00:27:29.359
animals, but it also, and this is the important

00:27:29.359 --> 00:27:32.380
thing, is it prohibits you from trafficking in

00:27:32.380 --> 00:27:35.480
dead animals or any part of an animal. Dead or

00:27:35.480 --> 00:27:38.539
alive, it all counts because you don't want people

00:27:38.539 --> 00:27:40.480
trafficking in these things that are protected.

00:27:40.960 --> 00:27:42.839
Otherwise, if someone knows that a particular

00:27:42.839 --> 00:27:45.259
part of an endangered species is valuable, then

00:27:45.259 --> 00:27:47.980
there's gonna be a race to capture these things,

00:27:48.039 --> 00:27:51.539
kill them, and sell the parts. So here he is

00:27:51.539 --> 00:27:54.579
offering this elephant skull on Craigslist Craigslist

00:27:54.579 --> 00:27:58.039
is a nationwide Service therefore, it's an interstate

00:27:58.039 --> 00:28:01.200
commerce and I believe some agents in the state

00:28:01.200 --> 00:28:03.339
of Washington picked up on this right and saw

00:28:03.339 --> 00:28:06.940
that he was offering it and Then Ed you got involved

00:28:08.069 --> 00:28:10.849
and acted undercover and did a fantastic job

00:28:10.849 --> 00:28:14.049
and said you were interested in buying it. And

00:28:14.049 --> 00:28:15.650
I think he was making you a deal. I think he

00:28:15.650 --> 00:28:17.849
wanted to sell it for about $9 ,000, but he was

00:28:17.849 --> 00:28:20.789
willing to let it go for $4 ,500. And there was

00:28:20.789 --> 00:28:22.789
a research institute that wanted to buy it, but

00:28:22.789 --> 00:28:25.670
they wanted paperwork. And Jerry, of course,

00:28:25.730 --> 00:28:27.890
couldn't provide paperwork because you couldn't

00:28:27.890 --> 00:28:31.369
have it. The Asian elephant is on the endangered

00:28:31.369 --> 00:28:34.410
species list. And you cannot traffic in that

00:28:34.410 --> 00:28:36.920
in interstate commerce or any part of it. And

00:28:36.920 --> 00:28:40.700
you can't offer to do it. And so you negotiated

00:28:40.700 --> 00:28:43.559
with him on the phone. And then I think one of

00:28:43.559 --> 00:28:46.460
the best things you did in the case, because

00:28:46.460 --> 00:28:48.119
when we have federal misdemeanors, those are

00:28:48.119 --> 00:28:50.000
typically strict liability. You can have the

00:28:50.000 --> 00:28:52.019
best intention in the world. But if you're knowing

00:28:52.019 --> 00:28:53.440
what you're doing and what you're doing is a

00:28:53.440 --> 00:28:56.920
violation of a federal law, such as the Endangered

00:28:56.920 --> 00:28:58.740
Species Act and there are other federal statutes

00:28:58.740 --> 00:29:01.559
that impose strict criminal liability, because

00:29:01.559 --> 00:29:03.460
what's being protected is so important that you

00:29:03.460 --> 00:29:05.900
better know what you're doing. Before you engage

00:29:05.900 --> 00:29:08.220
in it, but you went further than that you you

00:29:08.220 --> 00:29:11.000
actually you were gonna Transport the skull you

00:29:11.000 --> 00:29:12.720
say well, I'm gonna take this up to Washington

00:29:12.720 --> 00:29:16.119
What do I do if I get pulled over? And he was

00:29:16.119 --> 00:29:17.779
giving you advice like, well, you wouldn't be

00:29:17.779 --> 00:29:20.400
as much trouble if you had like the whale skull

00:29:20.400 --> 00:29:22.619
that I have here at my house. But just throw

00:29:22.619 --> 00:29:24.599
a tarp over it. Don't tell him you're driving

00:29:24.599 --> 00:29:26.559
with anything that you're going to sell. Rather,

00:29:26.680 --> 00:29:29.880
just tell them that you're moving up there and

00:29:29.880 --> 00:29:31.559
you're just dropping off some stuff and so forth.

00:29:31.579 --> 00:29:33.519
He was giving advice because he knew you can't

00:29:33.519 --> 00:29:35.859
transport that. And that was our interstate commerce

00:29:35.859 --> 00:29:38.400
connection. He was offering an endangered species

00:29:38.400 --> 00:29:40.720
for sale in interstate commerce. We had a lot

00:29:40.720 --> 00:29:44.569
of evidence on Mr. Snapp. For some reason, He

00:29:44.569 --> 00:29:48.849
chose to go to trial. And most cases we do, I

00:29:48.849 --> 00:29:50.750
think Mark and Matt would agree with me that

00:29:50.750 --> 00:29:53.809
over 90 % of what we charge, if not 95%, ends

00:29:53.809 --> 00:29:56.369
up pleading out. Very few cases. And that's probably

00:29:56.369 --> 00:29:58.490
true with the US Attorney's Office. Most cases

00:29:58.490 --> 00:30:00.690
plead. Because the cases are well done when you

00:30:00.690 --> 00:30:02.750
get, I mean. Yeah. You want them well done. You

00:30:02.750 --> 00:30:05.049
want to have a lot of evidence. And they'll get

00:30:05.049 --> 00:30:07.089
a lighter sentence if they accept responsibility

00:30:07.089 --> 00:30:09.809
and plead guilty. Jerry Snapp decided not to

00:30:09.809 --> 00:30:13.109
do it. And he went to trial. And the trial went

00:30:13.109 --> 00:30:15.250
smoothly, and everything went fine. The most

00:30:15.250 --> 00:30:17.470
unusual thing, I guess, about the trial was,

00:30:17.470 --> 00:30:19.450
you know, exhibit one, I'm not sure what exhibit

00:30:19.450 --> 00:30:21.829
number it was, but one of the exhibits was the

00:30:21.829 --> 00:30:23.950
elephant skull. The skull itself. And the judge

00:30:23.950 --> 00:30:26.509
was rather sensitive about the idea of this thing

00:30:26.509 --> 00:30:29.430
being in the court, particularly overnight. So

00:30:29.430 --> 00:30:31.849
he would require it. This elephant skull was

00:30:31.849 --> 00:30:34.009
the size of these chairs. Yeah, it was huge.

00:30:34.089 --> 00:30:36.190
Huge, and it was heavy. Had hundreds pounds.

00:30:36.529 --> 00:30:39.460
And Ed, I remember you got, you know, stuck with

00:30:39.460 --> 00:30:41.660
the task of taking this thing out of the courtroom

00:30:41.660 --> 00:30:45.200
during the break for the next day. And that thing

00:30:45.200 --> 00:30:49.420
was huge. And so he ended up getting convicted.

00:30:49.680 --> 00:30:53.960
But even before trial and so forth, when you

00:30:53.960 --> 00:30:55.319
were negotiating with him, you went to visit

00:30:55.319 --> 00:30:58.140
him at his home. And he had lots of different

00:30:58.140 --> 00:31:01.619
things from different animals and so forth. He

00:31:01.619 --> 00:31:04.259
was really an enthusiast, unfortunately. He was

00:31:04.259 --> 00:31:06.559
breaking the law along with it, which was a shame.

00:31:07.059 --> 00:31:09.720
He ended up getting convicted. You know, the

00:31:09.720 --> 00:31:12.500
Endangered Species Act is a misdemeanor statute.

00:31:12.720 --> 00:31:14.799
When you violate it, it's only misdemeanor penalties.

00:31:15.279 --> 00:31:18.519
Now, we do have in our arsenal other federal

00:31:18.519 --> 00:31:20.420
wildlife statutes that are felonies. The Lacey

00:31:20.420 --> 00:31:22.700
Act got mentioned. That you can charge misdemeanor

00:31:22.700 --> 00:31:25.000
or felony, depending on the facts. Smuggling,

00:31:25.039 --> 00:31:27.119
which often takes place with wildlife trafficking.

00:31:27.819 --> 00:31:30.390
Those are felony offenses. But the Endangered

00:31:30.390 --> 00:31:33.049
Species Act, all of those offenses are a misdemeanor.

00:31:33.349 --> 00:31:35.690
He got convicted. And I think he was ultimately

00:31:35.690 --> 00:31:38.069
sentenced to a term of home detention. And then

00:31:38.069 --> 00:31:41.029
I remember a year or two later, I think the LA

00:31:41.029 --> 00:31:43.470
Times did quite a profile on him. They did, yeah.

00:31:44.089 --> 00:31:46.150
And they were very sympathetic to him, actually.

00:31:46.650 --> 00:31:49.369
But you know what's interesting about that case,

00:31:49.609 --> 00:31:52.009
Dennis? I don't know if you remember this, but

00:31:52.009 --> 00:31:58.809
we did him a solid, a big solid, because He offered

00:31:58.809 --> 00:32:00.670
to sell that thing in interstate commerce. And

00:32:00.670 --> 00:32:02.549
you're right. It was a Washington agent who picked

00:32:02.549 --> 00:32:04.849
up on it. And that agent actually got a tip about

00:32:04.849 --> 00:32:07.269
it from somebody who was thinking about buying

00:32:07.269 --> 00:32:09.529
it and then realized, oh, that's probably illegal.

00:32:10.630 --> 00:32:13.150
And me and that agent in Washington kind of cooked

00:32:13.150 --> 00:32:15.349
up this undercover. Let's go. Because honestly,

00:32:15.349 --> 00:32:17.230
I didn't believe he was going to have an elephant

00:32:17.230 --> 00:32:20.230
skull. We never encountered that, right? The

00:32:20.230 --> 00:32:22.769
guy's got an Asian elephant skull for sale. We've

00:32:22.769 --> 00:32:25.089
never seen that. So I thought it was a scam.

00:32:25.509 --> 00:32:28.220
But I thought, OK, we'll go meet with him. But

00:32:28.220 --> 00:32:30.460
while we were meeting with him, we talked about,

00:32:31.599 --> 00:32:33.059
we're going to take this up to Washington. And

00:32:33.059 --> 00:32:35.359
he actually offered to drive it up there for

00:32:35.359 --> 00:32:38.720
us. Now, if he had done that, that would have

00:32:38.720 --> 00:32:41.720
been a felony Lacey Act violation, right? So

00:32:41.720 --> 00:32:45.059
we actually were like, no, no, that's OK. Because

00:32:45.059 --> 00:32:47.140
looking at him, like you said, he was a pretty

00:32:47.140 --> 00:32:49.779
eccentric guy. He had the one elephant skull

00:32:49.779 --> 00:32:52.319
for sale. He was interested in selling a rhino

00:32:52.319 --> 00:32:55.910
skull. But other than that, it didn't look like

00:32:55.910 --> 00:32:58.490
he was systemically involved in wildlife trafficking.

00:32:59.150 --> 00:33:01.670
But we couldn't let him do this crime. But we

00:33:01.670 --> 00:33:03.170
actually did him a solid. We could have hooked

00:33:03.170 --> 00:33:05.769
him up for a felony right there if we'd let him

00:33:05.769 --> 00:33:08.849
drive it to Washington state. And he would have

00:33:08.849 --> 00:33:11.069
been looking at a felony record and a lot more

00:33:11.069 --> 00:33:13.480
time in jail. And here. You know, that's OK.

00:33:13.759 --> 00:33:15.859
I'd never had any hard feelings about him going

00:33:15.859 --> 00:33:18.480
to trial. But it's just ironic that he was so

00:33:18.480 --> 00:33:20.619
affronted that we gave him a misdemeanor charge.

00:33:20.880 --> 00:33:23.440
I was surprised he went. We were up against a

00:33:23.440 --> 00:33:25.440
very good defense lawyer from the public defender's

00:33:25.440 --> 00:33:27.720
office, Anthony Eaglin, really terrific trial

00:33:27.720 --> 00:33:31.180
lawyer. But there's only so much a lawyer can

00:33:31.180 --> 00:33:33.440
do when the facts are so heavily against you.

00:33:33.920 --> 00:33:37.740
Do you remember what Jerry wore to his trial?

00:33:37.779 --> 00:33:42.150
Do you remember? I don't. He wore kind of a flowery

00:33:42.150 --> 00:33:45.329
shirt unbuttoned almost down to his navel. And

00:33:45.329 --> 00:33:47.609
he was really tan. He was really tan, blonde

00:33:47.609 --> 00:33:51.170
hair, stringy, shoulder length hair. And he sat

00:33:51.170 --> 00:33:53.609
the whole trial right in front of the jury with

00:33:53.609 --> 00:33:55.210
his shirt unbuttoned down to his belly button.

00:33:55.210 --> 00:33:56.650
Yeah, it was a jury trial, too. Did he testify

00:33:56.650 --> 00:33:59.089
at trial? Did he? I can't remember if he testified.

00:33:59.710 --> 00:34:01.670
I don't think he did. He didn't testify. That

00:34:01.670 --> 00:34:05.130
was an odd case. And so often trials, for me,

00:34:05.359 --> 00:34:08.400
I think the two or three of the trials I had

00:34:08.400 --> 00:34:10.639
in my career were misdemeanor trials. People

00:34:10.639 --> 00:34:14.059
wanted trials for misdemeanor charges. Let me

00:34:14.059 --> 00:34:17.059
ask you this, though. So I know listeners sometimes

00:34:17.059 --> 00:34:19.940
think, I have a strong opinion about this, why

00:34:19.940 --> 00:34:22.880
we did it. But you know, you mentioned this is

00:34:22.880 --> 00:34:25.539
a misdemeanor case. It's not a wild elephant.

00:34:26.079 --> 00:34:28.119
We know, we found out from our investigation

00:34:28.119 --> 00:34:31.349
that the elephant lived at the LA Zoo. Right.

00:34:31.349 --> 00:34:34.070
So why is this important from an endangered species

00:34:34.070 --> 00:34:36.530
perspective or a law enforcement or a deterrence

00:34:36.530 --> 00:34:38.250
perspective? Well, if you don't enforce these

00:34:38.250 --> 00:34:40.730
prohibitions against protecting that are designed

00:34:40.730 --> 00:34:42.849
to protect an endangered species or a species

00:34:42.849 --> 00:34:45.289
that's protected by the International Convention

00:34:45.289 --> 00:34:47.670
for the Protection of Wildlife, which is called

00:34:47.670 --> 00:34:51.210
Nicknamed CITES, you're allowing a market to

00:34:51.210 --> 00:34:54.230
exist. Exactly. And you're going to have poaching.

00:34:54.449 --> 00:34:56.909
You know, you're going to have wholesale slaughters

00:34:56.909 --> 00:34:59.570
in places of these protected animals. Right.

00:34:59.630 --> 00:35:01.780
And you can't have that. And so it was an important

00:35:01.780 --> 00:35:03.780
case because here you had a part of a dead animal.

00:35:04.039 --> 00:35:05.760
Yeah, it was not roaming in the wild. It was

00:35:05.760 --> 00:35:07.880
in a zoo. But an elephant skull is an elephant

00:35:07.880 --> 00:35:10.440
skull. And an Asian elephant skull is one of

00:35:10.440 --> 00:35:12.579
those two main species. And that one's protected.

00:35:13.079 --> 00:35:15.460
And you can't allow that. So we had to do something.

00:35:15.639 --> 00:35:17.800
Yeah. And I guarantee you, there's somebody out

00:35:17.800 --> 00:35:20.699
there who saw that ad on Craigslist and said,

00:35:20.920 --> 00:35:23.360
you know what? I want an elephant skull. Or some

00:35:23.360 --> 00:35:25.440
other kind of weird skull, right? So you're right.

00:35:25.579 --> 00:35:28.480
It drives a market. And that's one of the things

00:35:28.480 --> 00:35:32.150
that our collective mission is to kill the market

00:35:32.150 --> 00:35:35.070
as much as we can. We've had separate cases where

00:35:35.070 --> 00:35:37.769
what was at stake were parts of animals. We've

00:35:37.769 --> 00:35:41.070
had rhino horns. There was a store in West Hollywood

00:35:41.070 --> 00:35:43.949
that specialized in selling dried -out animals.

00:35:44.690 --> 00:35:46.269
Some of what was being sold there was protected,

00:35:46.369 --> 00:35:49.590
and we went after that store and the owner. Nothing

00:35:49.590 --> 00:35:52.869
was live. These were just dead animals. It's

00:35:52.869 --> 00:35:54.929
interesting because a lot of... It's not always

00:35:54.929 --> 00:35:58.289
about protecting the animals. It's a lot of profiteering

00:35:58.289 --> 00:36:01.130
on the backs of the animals. Exactly. Because

00:36:01.130 --> 00:36:03.610
we have these laws that protect the animals in

00:36:03.610 --> 00:36:06.929
the wild. But where we come in, it's where people

00:36:06.929 --> 00:36:09.409
are taking animals or animal parts and making

00:36:09.409 --> 00:36:11.429
money off of them. They're committing fraud.

00:36:11.829 --> 00:36:13.550
I mean, I think everybody understands what fraud

00:36:13.550 --> 00:36:16.800
is. You're selling something. in a shady way,

00:36:16.940 --> 00:36:18.699
you're trafficking something illegally, and then

00:36:18.699 --> 00:36:20.280
you're putting money in your pocket, and that's

00:36:20.280 --> 00:36:22.159
really what it's about. Right, it's a greed thing

00:36:22.159 --> 00:36:24.679
versus an animal -loving thing, right? Exactly.

00:36:25.440 --> 00:36:27.179
And you're getting animals killed for their part,

00:36:27.519 --> 00:36:29.920
like a rhino horn, for example. Yeah, I always

00:36:29.920 --> 00:36:32.420
try to say to people, you know, our job really

00:36:32.420 --> 00:36:34.739
isn't about saving an individual animal, it's

00:36:34.739 --> 00:36:37.340
about saving a species, right? Keeping that pressure

00:36:37.340 --> 00:36:40.619
off. So OK, so Matt gets a check for talking

00:36:40.619 --> 00:36:43.300
about a case I did with him. Dennis, check, did

00:36:43.300 --> 00:36:46.500
a case I did with you. Pressure's on. OK, the

00:36:46.500 --> 00:36:49.519
pressure's on. You better come up with one I

00:36:49.519 --> 00:36:53.480
didn't do with you, Mark. I've got one. I've

00:36:53.480 --> 00:36:55.760
done a lot of wildlife cases over the years.

00:36:55.940 --> 00:36:59.300
I mean, I think I've done poached leopard sharks.

00:36:59.320 --> 00:37:02.519
I've done bear bile, where people are smuggling

00:37:02.519 --> 00:37:05.900
bear gall bladders for bile. I've done butterflies.

00:37:06.420 --> 00:37:09.699
I've done Asian songbirds in people's pants on

00:37:09.699 --> 00:37:12.519
international flights. I've done tarantulas.

00:37:12.760 --> 00:37:15.360
I've helped with rhino horns. I mean, it's kind

00:37:15.360 --> 00:37:17.960
of run the gamut. And you've been a big part

00:37:17.960 --> 00:37:20.239
of a huge chunk of that stuff. And I think, were

00:37:20.239 --> 00:37:23.440
you involved in the Leopard Shark case that Dorothy

00:37:23.440 --> 00:37:28.619
Kim charged way back? Two, I don't know. Peripherally,

00:37:28.699 --> 00:37:31.760
probably. But maybe not as the case agent. Yeah,

00:37:31.760 --> 00:37:33.199
but I know we've worked together on a lot of

00:37:33.199 --> 00:37:37.159
things over the years. Butterfly guy comes to

00:37:37.159 --> 00:37:39.780
mind. But I think the one I want to talk about

00:37:39.780 --> 00:37:41.800
is the tarantulas. Yes. That was interesting.

00:37:43.059 --> 00:37:45.900
So I like that one, too. There was a great agent

00:37:45.900 --> 00:37:48.420
out here. His name was Paul Montorey. Just recently

00:37:48.420 --> 00:37:50.820
retired. Really? Did he? I didn't even know that.

00:37:50.940 --> 00:37:52.800
Yeah, he's working for the state in Washington

00:37:52.800 --> 00:37:58.119
now. Good for him. And he identified what we

00:37:58.119 --> 00:38:00.139
believed at the time, if I think correctly, was

00:38:00.139 --> 00:38:04.519
the world's largest tarantula exporter. This

00:38:04.519 --> 00:38:07.599
guy was selling protected tarantulas like Mexican

00:38:07.599 --> 00:38:09.840
red -kneed tarantulas and other things throughout

00:38:09.840 --> 00:38:12.900
the world. And he was all over the internet.

00:38:13.039 --> 00:38:15.400
He was sending packages with literally thousands

00:38:15.400 --> 00:38:18.719
of tarantulas everywhere to Mexico, United States,

00:38:18.820 --> 00:38:21.480
all over Europe. And Paul called me one day.

00:38:21.519 --> 00:38:24.260
He's like, Mark, I got this lead. you know, what

00:38:24.260 --> 00:38:25.900
do you think? And I said, sounds great, Paul,

00:38:26.079 --> 00:38:27.780
but where's this guy located? And he's like,

00:38:27.800 --> 00:38:31.039
well, let's figure it out. So Paul, unfortunately,

00:38:31.159 --> 00:38:34.579
nicknamed the case Operation Spider -Man. Not

00:38:34.579 --> 00:38:37.820
the most original operation name, but there you

00:38:37.820 --> 00:38:40.780
go. And we figured out the guy was in Germany,

00:38:40.880 --> 00:38:45.079
of all places. And so one of the biggest issues

00:38:45.079 --> 00:38:47.619
in the case was, well, if we charge him in the

00:38:47.619 --> 00:38:49.969
United States and he's in Germany, we're going

00:38:49.969 --> 00:38:51.849
to have this extradition process, and it makes

00:38:51.849 --> 00:38:55.329
the prosecution a lot more difficult. So we had

00:38:55.329 --> 00:38:57.630
some different options. And when we started the

00:38:57.630 --> 00:38:59.510
podcast, we talked a lot about partnerships.

00:39:00.650 --> 00:39:03.190
We worked with DOJ's Office of International

00:39:03.190 --> 00:39:05.829
Affairs to reach out to Germany to say, hey,

00:39:05.849 --> 00:39:08.409
we've got this target in your country. Would

00:39:08.409 --> 00:39:11.409
you be interested in helping us work this target?

00:39:12.550 --> 00:39:14.650
The United States just can't go to foreign countries

00:39:14.650 --> 00:39:17.909
and deploy law enforcement to do things. That's

00:39:17.909 --> 00:39:19.809
what the movies tell us. Yeah, that is what the

00:39:19.809 --> 00:39:21.530
movies tell us. But unfortunately, we're not

00:39:21.530 --> 00:39:24.409
Navy SEALs. We don't do black ops wildlife things

00:39:24.409 --> 00:39:29.150
yet. Just kidding. But so we worked with the

00:39:29.150 --> 00:39:30.650
German authorities. And they said, yeah, we're

00:39:30.650 --> 00:39:33.010
definitely interested. He's a high volume guy.

00:39:33.710 --> 00:39:36.789
We'll help you do what we call a ruse, where

00:39:36.789 --> 00:39:40.170
we work in undercover into Germany. So we post

00:39:40.170 --> 00:39:43.190
online as a buyer and did some confidence buys.

00:39:43.489 --> 00:39:46.469
We call them with the target. He sent the tarantulas

00:39:46.469 --> 00:39:48.849
over here. They were all protected. Of course,

00:39:48.869 --> 00:39:51.610
he said really bad stuff on his import paperwork,

00:39:52.050 --> 00:39:54.150
like their kids' toys or whatever, when really

00:39:54.150 --> 00:39:56.289
they're tarantulas. And the way these things

00:39:56.289 --> 00:39:57.670
are packaged are really interesting. They're

00:39:57.670 --> 00:40:00.769
in these plastic tubes, and the tarantulas kind

00:40:00.769 --> 00:40:04.539
of, they're live, and they're kind of thin. Plastic

00:40:04.539 --> 00:40:07.079
tubes almost like a pencil case and there's hundreds

00:40:07.079 --> 00:40:09.539
of these in the box. Yeah And if they mark them

00:40:09.539 --> 00:40:11.980
as kids toys, you know customs gonna shake the

00:40:11.980 --> 00:40:13.860
package and you don't know it's a tarantula But

00:40:13.860 --> 00:40:15.539
there are thousands of these things in there.

00:40:15.539 --> 00:40:20.420
Yeah So we did a few buys, you know, and he kept

00:40:20.420 --> 00:40:22.119
selling so we thought we got to take this guy

00:40:22.119 --> 00:40:24.800
down So we developed a plan where we're gonna

00:40:24.800 --> 00:40:27.039
open a pet shop out here At least what we told

00:40:27.039 --> 00:40:29.760
them and we wanted him to be our keynote speaker

00:40:29.760 --> 00:40:32.280
Marcy guy at the grand opening of our pet shop

00:40:32.280 --> 00:40:35.139
nice and He said, well, do I get to come to United

00:40:35.139 --> 00:40:37.599
States? We're like, absolutely. You can come

00:40:37.599 --> 00:40:39.500
to United States if you really want to. He's

00:40:39.500 --> 00:40:41.539
like, yeah, I want to come. And we're like, OK,

00:40:41.599 --> 00:40:43.780
how about we buy your ticket? He's like, that's

00:40:43.780 --> 00:40:48.599
great. We'll do it. And so we bought the ticket.

00:40:48.960 --> 00:40:51.920
He flew over, picked him up at the airport. Good

00:40:51.920 --> 00:40:54.059
to meet you. And the agents are all undercover.

00:40:54.219 --> 00:40:56.340
They've got the car wired up. So they've got

00:40:56.340 --> 00:40:59.000
cameras in the car. They're all mic'd up, recording

00:40:59.000 --> 00:41:01.380
everything. You know, they're chit chatting on

00:41:01.380 --> 00:41:04.000
the way to the to the grand opening of the pet

00:41:04.000 --> 00:41:06.420
shop. Like, yeah, you know, some of these tarantulas

00:41:06.420 --> 00:41:08.659
are illegal. We better not tell anybody. It's

00:41:08.659 --> 00:41:10.500
like, yeah, that's you know, we shouldn't tell

00:41:10.500 --> 00:41:12.739
anybody about this. We get in big trouble. Beautiful.

00:41:12.960 --> 00:41:14.440
And actually, I think brought tarantulas with

00:41:14.440 --> 00:41:18.199
him to on the flight. So get to the pet shop

00:41:18.199 --> 00:41:21.369
and. It's a room kind of like this. It's a warehouse

00:41:21.369 --> 00:41:24.070
basically that was rented out and it had cameras

00:41:24.070 --> 00:41:26.349
and everything. He made some more great admissions

00:41:26.349 --> 00:41:28.530
about not wanting to get in trouble. And then

00:41:28.530 --> 00:41:30.389
of course, they brought out the handcuffs and

00:41:30.389 --> 00:41:34.650
arrested him. And we charged him here with felonies.

00:41:36.070 --> 00:41:37.909
And, you know, when you're charged with federal

00:41:37.909 --> 00:41:40.130
felonies, you have a decision to make. You can

00:41:40.130 --> 00:41:43.559
either go to trial like Jerry Snap. Which you

00:41:43.559 --> 00:41:45.519
have a complete right to and we respect that

00:41:45.519 --> 00:41:47.179
and you know It's your constitutional right to

00:41:47.179 --> 00:41:49.000
fight the charges if you think it's appropriate

00:41:49.000 --> 00:41:51.639
sure or you can plead guilty or you can cooperate

00:41:51.639 --> 00:41:56.820
and You know he decided I think to have the benefit

00:41:56.820 --> 00:41:59.400
of pleading guilty. I still went to federal prison

00:41:59.400 --> 00:42:02.659
for six months though Nice the way fend up federal,

00:42:02.659 --> 00:42:05.639
you know this but for your audience the way the

00:42:05.639 --> 00:42:08.599
federal sentencing guidelines work are The more

00:42:08.599 --> 00:42:11.380
money you deal in illegally the higher your sentence

00:42:11.380 --> 00:42:13.860
exposure So you have a guidelines number that

00:42:13.860 --> 00:42:16.280
you get, and it could be from zero to 50, basically.

00:42:17.000 --> 00:42:19.280
And if you're dealing in the low thousands, you

00:42:19.280 --> 00:42:22.239
could be like zero to 10. If you're dealing in

00:42:22.239 --> 00:42:24.380
the mid hundreds of thousands, you're maybe 10

00:42:24.380 --> 00:42:26.179
to 20. And when you get into the millions and

00:42:26.179 --> 00:42:28.360
tens of millions and hundreds of millions, that

00:42:28.360 --> 00:42:30.679
level of fraud at your prison exposure goes way

00:42:30.679 --> 00:42:35.460
up. And because he was a massive tarantula smuggler,

00:42:35.599 --> 00:42:39.980
his exposure is pretty high. But because he did

00:42:39.980 --> 00:42:42.519
some work for us and helped himself out, he got

00:42:42.519 --> 00:42:44.380
six months in prison. And it was an interesting

00:42:44.380 --> 00:42:49.260
case. I remember that Paul was working on that.

00:42:49.659 --> 00:42:52.059
Boy, that was a creepy one. It was. Oh, the spiders.

00:42:52.739 --> 00:42:54.340
They're either holding still or they're moving

00:42:54.340 --> 00:42:57.360
real fast. I'm not a big tarantula guy. But yeah,

00:42:57.460 --> 00:43:00.500
there were definitely creepy crawly spiders.

00:43:00.860 --> 00:43:03.559
Yeah. So was Germany happy with the result on

00:43:03.559 --> 00:43:05.159
that? Or did they do anything? Or what do you

00:43:05.159 --> 00:43:07.300
know about what happened over there? So we briefed

00:43:07.300 --> 00:43:09.559
them up through our Office of International Affairs,

00:43:09.579 --> 00:43:12.119
and they were extremely enthusiastic. They were

00:43:12.119 --> 00:43:15.139
happy to be part of the whole thing. I think

00:43:15.139 --> 00:43:17.699
law enforcement there doesn't do a lot of wildlife

00:43:17.699 --> 00:43:19.320
crimes out of Germany, and they thought it was

00:43:19.320 --> 00:43:23.480
a unique case. But given the fraud and the smuggling

00:43:23.480 --> 00:43:25.619
aspect of it, which is really a border security

00:43:25.619 --> 00:43:27.719
issue, they didn't want this guy sending and

00:43:27.719 --> 00:43:29.929
citing contraband. You know throughout europe

00:43:29.929 --> 00:43:31.469
and you know, they're happy you got some prison

00:43:31.469 --> 00:43:34.889
time. So yeah, it's a great case very cool You

00:43:34.889 --> 00:43:36.809
know i'm glad you brought up the sentencing guidelines

00:43:36.809 --> 00:43:38.750
because I think sometimes people get confused

00:43:38.750 --> 00:43:40.869
You know because in the media a lot of times

00:43:40.869 --> 00:43:44.389
when these people are arrested it'll say Facing

00:43:44.389 --> 00:43:46.690
up to you know, five years in prison on a laciac

00:43:46.690 --> 00:43:50.550
case and a 250 000 fine maximum or a smuggling

00:43:50.550 --> 00:43:52.889
case. They'll say facing up to 20 years in prison,

00:43:52.889 --> 00:43:56.500
right? and then When the case is over and the

00:43:56.500 --> 00:43:58.960
next media report says, well, they got six months

00:43:58.960 --> 00:44:03.719
in jail or a year in jail, you did a great job

00:44:03.719 --> 00:44:06.000
describing how the sentencing guidelines work.

00:44:06.079 --> 00:44:08.420
But I want to dive in a little deeper on that

00:44:08.420 --> 00:44:12.639
because you mentioned numbers. And so those numbers

00:44:12.639 --> 00:44:15.639
don't necessarily reflect years in prison, right?

00:44:16.219 --> 00:44:18.280
Explain how those numbers. You're basically looking

00:44:18.280 --> 00:44:21.469
at a book that helps you. come up with a number.

00:44:21.909 --> 00:44:23.510
You have this book. It's called The Sentencing

00:44:23.510 --> 00:44:25.150
Guidelines. And in the back of the book, you

00:44:25.150 --> 00:44:27.349
have a chart. And so on the top of the chart,

00:44:27.349 --> 00:44:30.030
it's got your criminal history. So you're a zero

00:44:30.030 --> 00:44:31.469
if you've never done anything. And you could

00:44:31.469 --> 00:44:34.550
be up to a category six, I think, or five if

00:44:34.550 --> 00:44:37.110
you have a lot of priors. OK, so you could start.

00:44:37.110 --> 00:44:38.650
You're going to start with a number. It's either

00:44:38.650 --> 00:44:41.829
going to be zero or some other number if you

00:44:41.829 --> 00:44:44.309
have a prior criminal history. So let's say you've

00:44:44.309 --> 00:44:45.809
committed maybe a couple of felonies. You're

00:44:45.809 --> 00:44:48.170
probably criminal history two or three. So you

00:44:48.170 --> 00:44:49.929
move to that position on the top of the chart.

00:44:50.139 --> 00:44:51.920
And down on the left side of the chart, there's

00:44:51.920 --> 00:44:54.500
another number zero to I think it's 50 or 40,

00:44:54.519 --> 00:44:57.139
something like that. So if you commit a murder,

00:44:57.340 --> 00:44:59.280
you know, first degree murder, premeditated stuff

00:44:59.280 --> 00:45:00.579
with a number of victims, you're going to be

00:45:00.579 --> 00:45:03.420
right at the bottom of 43. Got it. If you committed,

00:45:03.420 --> 00:45:06.300
you know, maybe theft of mail or something like

00:45:06.300 --> 00:45:07.820
that or a misdemeanor, you're going to be, you

00:45:07.820 --> 00:45:10.739
know, zero to six somewhere in there. And then

00:45:10.739 --> 00:45:13.079
you have kind of characteristics that are applied

00:45:13.079 --> 00:45:16.320
to. So let's say there's a huge number of victims.

00:45:16.500 --> 00:45:19.949
So, for example, we. prosecuted a case and took

00:45:19.949 --> 00:45:22.469
it to trial a couple years ago involving a dive

00:45:22.469 --> 00:45:25.250
boat that caught on fire and 34 people were killed

00:45:25.250 --> 00:45:28.050
in that fire. Everybody on board essentially,

00:45:28.070 --> 00:45:30.690
all the passengers. That's an enhancement. 34

00:45:30.690 --> 00:45:34.130
victims is a big enhancement. Let's say you have

00:45:34.130 --> 00:45:36.369
vulnerable victims like children or the elderly,

00:45:36.530 --> 00:45:39.550
that's another enhancement. So there's all these

00:45:39.550 --> 00:45:41.130
different enhancements that can apply. If you

00:45:41.130 --> 00:45:43.510
used a gun, if you're a felon in possession,

00:45:43.809 --> 00:45:45.250
those types of things. So those can bump your

00:45:45.250 --> 00:45:47.440
number up. So you'll go down the left side of

00:45:47.440 --> 00:45:50.239
the column and find whatever your total number

00:45:50.239 --> 00:45:53.019
is for the seriousness of that offense. And then

00:45:53.019 --> 00:45:54.739
you go to the middle point, and you take your

00:45:54.739 --> 00:45:56.559
top and your left, go to the middle, and there's

00:45:56.559 --> 00:45:59.260
a prison range associated with that particular

00:45:59.260 --> 00:46:01.780
thing. Got it. Could be, and it's always in months.

00:46:01.980 --> 00:46:04.360
So it could be zero to six months. It could be

00:46:04.360 --> 00:46:07.559
150 to 180 months, whatever the case may be.

00:46:07.880 --> 00:46:10.219
And the judge uses that as kind of a guideline,

00:46:10.320 --> 00:46:13.619
a starting point for their analysis of the prison

00:46:13.619 --> 00:46:16.750
sentence the judge should apply. Now, as you

00:46:16.750 --> 00:46:19.289
know, federal judges do whatever federal judges

00:46:19.289 --> 00:46:21.190
want to do. They're presidentially appointed

00:46:21.190 --> 00:46:24.090
for life. They have the benefit of that. They

00:46:24.090 --> 00:46:25.909
look at the guidelines, and they may take it

00:46:25.909 --> 00:46:28.510
real seriously, or they may think it overestimates

00:46:28.510 --> 00:46:30.250
the offense. They may think it underestimates

00:46:30.250 --> 00:46:32.269
the offense. And they'll apply whatever prison

00:46:32.269 --> 00:46:35.269
sentence they can up to the statutory maximum,

00:46:35.429 --> 00:46:37.789
which is what you said before. So whenever we

00:46:37.789 --> 00:46:39.789
charge a case, there's a maximum sentence. Could

00:46:39.789 --> 00:46:42.130
be five years or 20 years. It could be life.

00:46:43.460 --> 00:46:46.280
I've only had a few cases where a judge maxed

00:46:46.280 --> 00:46:48.380
out a defendant. Usually you're not anywhere

00:46:48.380 --> 00:46:51.019
close to that statutory maximum sentence, but

00:46:51.019 --> 00:46:53.039
you always want to make sure the defendant knows,

00:46:53.219 --> 00:46:55.800
hey, this is my total exposure here. If I go

00:46:55.800 --> 00:46:58.599
to trial, I could go to prison for 20 years.

00:46:58.780 --> 00:47:00.960
Maybe very unlikely, but you want to make sure

00:47:00.960 --> 00:47:02.980
they're on notice that, yeah, this could happen.

00:47:03.630 --> 00:47:05.690
And that's a good point, because defendants are

00:47:05.690 --> 00:47:08.630
always told. The US government does not keep

00:47:08.630 --> 00:47:10.710
secrets from people that they're prosecuting,

00:47:10.710 --> 00:47:13.309
right? And they're always told exactly where

00:47:13.309 --> 00:47:15.030
they come out on the sentencing guidelines or

00:47:15.030 --> 00:47:16.690
where the government believes they come out,

00:47:16.789 --> 00:47:19.630
right? So they kind of know, OK, the government

00:47:19.630 --> 00:47:22.409
thinks I'm at a seven or whatever, so that's

00:47:22.409 --> 00:47:25.849
going to expose me to this possible sentence,

00:47:25.989 --> 00:47:31.730
right? Exactly. And that's the key thing. The

00:47:31.730 --> 00:47:33.269
guidelines are just that. They're guidelines.

00:47:33.469 --> 00:47:35.309
So federal judges don't have to follow them.

00:47:35.449 --> 00:47:38.489
They can upward depart or downward depart. But

00:47:38.489 --> 00:47:41.329
generally, they all want to sentence similarly

00:47:41.329 --> 00:47:44.429
so that if you're in New York, you don't get

00:47:44.429 --> 00:47:47.170
a harsher sentence for the same crime that somebody

00:47:47.170 --> 00:47:51.090
else did in Los Angeles. You want to keep it

00:47:51.090 --> 00:47:55.670
relatively the same for similarly situated defendants.

00:47:57.349 --> 00:47:59.250
So you've mentioned some things where you can,

00:47:59.510 --> 00:48:01.769
like, Certain behaviors that a defendant can

00:48:01.769 --> 00:48:05.070
engage in can add points to their where they

00:48:05.070 --> 00:48:06.929
come out on the sentencing guidelines But it's

00:48:06.929 --> 00:48:09.030
also possible for a defendant to reduce their

00:48:09.030 --> 00:48:11.610
numbers, right? Right. How can what sort of things

00:48:11.610 --> 00:48:13.510
can a defendant do to reduce the numbers? Well,

00:48:13.510 --> 00:48:15.389
the biggest thing is to cooperate, you know I

00:48:15.389 --> 00:48:17.550
think right off the bat telling the truth and

00:48:17.550 --> 00:48:19.730
cooperating with law enforcement gets you a big

00:48:19.730 --> 00:48:21.889
benefit if you accept responsibility That's a

00:48:21.889 --> 00:48:24.349
three -point reduction, right? If you cooperate

00:48:24.349 --> 00:48:27.530
the government can make a motion that says this

00:48:27.530 --> 00:48:29.869
defendant assisted us by providing information

00:48:29.869 --> 00:48:32.090
about other targets, by being truthful about

00:48:32.090 --> 00:48:35.409
what they did. Could be a situation where the

00:48:35.409 --> 00:48:38.030
defendant, him or herself, goes undercover and

00:48:38.030 --> 00:48:40.889
does transactions. We've certainly had a number

00:48:40.889 --> 00:48:42.929
of wildlife cases where we've had cooperating

00:48:42.929 --> 00:48:45.809
targets and cooperating defendants. And that

00:48:45.809 --> 00:48:47.849
will immediately reduce the prison exposure.

00:48:47.989 --> 00:48:50.800
And then the government... keeps all that information

00:48:50.800 --> 00:48:53.000
sealed until we need to produce it for a trial.

00:48:53.599 --> 00:48:56.340
But then the person gets a benefit at sentencing

00:48:56.340 --> 00:48:59.179
after they plead guilty because the guidelines

00:48:59.179 --> 00:49:01.059
are reduced, which means the prison exposure

00:49:01.059 --> 00:49:03.340
is reduced too. So that's probably the biggest

00:49:03.340 --> 00:49:06.420
way. Yeah. Yeah. OK. I think that helps people

00:49:06.420 --> 00:49:09.179
understand how you can be charged with a crime

00:49:09.179 --> 00:49:12.519
that has this horrendously frightening max. Right.

00:49:12.900 --> 00:49:15.639
And then you can get it down to a lower level.

00:49:16.400 --> 00:49:18.739
What are your thoughts on that? I mean, have

00:49:18.739 --> 00:49:21.179
you seen, do you guys feel that that had, does

00:49:21.179 --> 00:49:23.739
that decrease the deterrent impact of prosecuting

00:49:23.739 --> 00:49:26.340
these crimes to have, you know, somebody who's

00:49:26.340 --> 00:49:28.860
charged and they're, you know, looking at five

00:49:28.860 --> 00:49:30.760
years max, but then they only get six months.

00:49:30.800 --> 00:49:33.119
Does that increase the deterrent value just based

00:49:33.119 --> 00:49:35.360
on your experience, what you've seen? You know,

00:49:35.360 --> 00:49:38.340
with the guidelines, it's really, it's trying

00:49:38.340 --> 00:49:40.619
to custom, well, not custom make it, but have

00:49:40.619 --> 00:49:43.219
that defendant get what should be a just sentence.

00:49:43.219 --> 00:49:45.440
Right. And that means taking into account. the

00:49:45.440 --> 00:49:47.639
criminal history, the offense level. And the

00:49:47.639 --> 00:49:49.159
offense level, as Mark pointed out, is based

00:49:49.159 --> 00:49:51.980
on how much money was involved, what kind of

00:49:51.980 --> 00:49:55.159
characteristics were also involved, like vulnerable

00:49:55.159 --> 00:49:57.239
victim was involved. It's going to increase the

00:49:57.239 --> 00:49:59.880
offense level. Where sophisticated means used.

00:50:00.079 --> 00:50:02.519
That's going to increase it. Yeah. Sometimes,

00:50:02.900 --> 00:50:04.739
you know, you mentioned this a second ago about

00:50:04.739 --> 00:50:06.579
decreasing it. And one of, of course, would be

00:50:06.579 --> 00:50:08.840
cooperation. Another one is somebody could be

00:50:08.840 --> 00:50:11.219
involved in a conspiracy to do something, but

00:50:11.219 --> 00:50:13.699
was really sort of a minor participant or a minimal

00:50:13.699 --> 00:50:16.000
participant. And there are occasions where we'll

00:50:16.000 --> 00:50:18.059
see that as well. And we'll say, well, you know

00:50:18.059 --> 00:50:19.820
what, let's decrease the offense level a little

00:50:19.820 --> 00:50:21.960
bit to compensate for that, because this person

00:50:21.960 --> 00:50:23.980
really wasn't the leader. On the other hand,

00:50:24.059 --> 00:50:26.480
if somebody was a leader, we call that an aggravated

00:50:26.480 --> 00:50:30.460
role. And it goes up. So it's these characteristics

00:50:30.460 --> 00:50:32.780
that are going to drive somebody in being able

00:50:32.780 --> 00:50:34.960
to consult with their lawyer to figure out where

00:50:34.960 --> 00:50:37.519
do they stand in the guidelines. We usually won't

00:50:37.519 --> 00:50:39.679
advise them of that. It's more the defense lawyer

00:50:39.679 --> 00:50:41.599
is going to tell his client, look, I think this

00:50:41.599 --> 00:50:43.380
is where you're going, but there's no guarantees.

00:50:43.760 --> 00:50:45.460
And when defendants plead guilty, the judges

00:50:45.460 --> 00:50:47.699
make a point of saying, look, the sentence is

00:50:47.699 --> 00:50:50.659
up to me. I'll listen to what your lawyer has

00:50:50.659 --> 00:50:51.860
to say. I'll listen to what the government has

00:50:51.860 --> 00:50:53.820
to say. I'm going to consult the guidelines,

00:50:54.039 --> 00:50:57.809
and then I'll decide. I mean, not to get you

00:50:57.809 --> 00:50:59.530
technical, but I think anytime you're sending

00:50:59.530 --> 00:51:01.989
somebody to prison for wildlife crimes, that's

00:51:01.989 --> 00:51:05.090
a deterrent. People think that they're going

00:51:05.090 --> 00:51:07.210
to sell an elephant skull and everything's going

00:51:07.210 --> 00:51:08.809
to work out fine, and they're going to pocket

00:51:08.809 --> 00:51:11.349
$10 or something. But anytime they're going to

00:51:11.349 --> 00:51:13.630
prison for things like that, I think that's very

00:51:13.630 --> 00:51:16.769
important for deterrence. Yeah. Aaron and I used

00:51:16.769 --> 00:51:18.630
to have, Aaron Dean and I used to have a saying

00:51:18.630 --> 00:51:21.590
that if we caught somebody blatantly smuggling,

00:51:21.650 --> 00:51:24.110
they were getting arrested. Because just that

00:51:24.110 --> 00:51:27.239
one night that they spend means a lot. Give a

00:51:27.239 --> 00:51:29.699
sample. That first night they spend in jail means

00:51:29.699 --> 00:51:33.159
a lot. And in terms of deterrent, have you guys

00:51:33.159 --> 00:51:35.820
seen a lot of repeat offenders? I think that's

00:51:35.820 --> 00:51:37.719
a telltale sign of whether deterrence is working

00:51:37.719 --> 00:51:41.800
or not. Do you see a lot of repeaters? That's

00:51:41.800 --> 00:51:44.099
a good question. I mean, we were talking about

00:51:44.099 --> 00:51:46.980
the Byung -Soo Kim earlier, the classic example

00:51:46.980 --> 00:51:51.750
of a repeat offender. He gets caught here. flees

00:51:51.750 --> 00:51:54.489
the country and then just goes to South Africa

00:51:54.489 --> 00:51:57.510
and does the same thing. I mean, that's kind

00:51:57.510 --> 00:52:00.949
of an extreme example. I think, at least in my

00:52:00.949 --> 00:52:06.989
experience, defendants don't necessarily get

00:52:06.989 --> 00:52:10.949
caught doing the same thing a few years later.

00:52:11.329 --> 00:52:15.250
It's more that they were caught in their past

00:52:15.250 --> 00:52:19.829
for committing other crimes. some sort of prison

00:52:19.829 --> 00:52:22.489
or jail sentence. And then we catch them again,

00:52:23.329 --> 00:52:25.650
doing something a little different or doing something

00:52:25.650 --> 00:52:28.610
that they, you know, a wildlife crime that maybe

00:52:28.610 --> 00:52:31.710
they hadn't gotten caught doing in the past.

00:52:31.730 --> 00:52:34.989
And now they get caught. So it's the recidivism,

00:52:35.329 --> 00:52:38.789
which is something federal judges take very seriously

00:52:38.789 --> 00:52:46.670
is a it's always an issue. But some people just

00:52:47.280 --> 00:52:50.460
Can't help themselves. So I've had cases not

00:52:50.460 --> 00:52:55.639
in the wildlife context where someone gets Caught

00:52:55.639 --> 00:52:58.539
doing one thing. Maybe it killed somebody and

00:52:58.539 --> 00:53:01.000
then they go to prison Then they get out and

00:53:01.000 --> 00:53:03.340
they just keep at it and it's it's just kind

00:53:03.340 --> 00:53:07.019
of human nature. Unfortunately and in that situation

00:53:07.019 --> 00:53:10.480
that federal judges will tend to hammer the defendant

00:53:10.480 --> 00:53:13.599
at sentencing the second time around. And that

00:53:13.599 --> 00:53:16.280
multiple offenses raises your number on that

00:53:16.280 --> 00:53:20.420
sentencing guidelines. And I always felt like

00:53:20.420 --> 00:53:23.400
the warning for people is that first time, the

00:53:23.400 --> 00:53:26.039
first offender in a federal system is likely

00:53:26.039 --> 00:53:28.619
going to get cut some breaks, but don't show

00:53:28.619 --> 00:53:31.119
up again. Because that's when judges will really

00:53:31.119 --> 00:53:34.380
turn on you, right? Right. And one thing that

00:53:34.380 --> 00:53:38.409
federal judges I mean, a lot of work goes into

00:53:38.409 --> 00:53:41.389
the sentencing process. The probation office

00:53:41.389 --> 00:53:44.449
before sentencing prepares a detailed report

00:53:44.449 --> 00:53:47.929
for the judge about both the crime, but just

00:53:47.929 --> 00:53:50.829
as important, the defendant's background and,

00:53:50.869 --> 00:53:52.989
you know, did they have a rough childhood, their

00:53:52.989 --> 00:53:56.190
kind of personal history. And a lot of times

00:53:56.190 --> 00:53:59.340
the defendant has a... kind of sympathetic things,

00:53:59.880 --> 00:54:01.840
reasons in their past why a judge might give

00:54:01.840 --> 00:54:04.800
them a break the first time around. The second

00:54:04.800 --> 00:54:07.800
time around, that's out the window and they tend

00:54:07.800 --> 00:54:11.019
to receive very heavy sentences. Interesting.

00:54:11.059 --> 00:54:14.340
Very true. What about like proof issues? Do you

00:54:14.340 --> 00:54:17.340
think in wildlife crimes or wildlife prosecutions,

00:54:17.440 --> 00:54:20.219
do you guys have unique proof problems or proof

00:54:20.219 --> 00:54:22.159
issues that you might not have in other types

00:54:22.159 --> 00:54:25.940
of criminal activity? I think we... One of the

00:54:25.940 --> 00:54:30.460
challenges for judges is how to line up a wildlife

00:54:30.460 --> 00:54:33.440
crime sentence with other types of crimes. It's

00:54:33.440 --> 00:54:36.300
not really a drug offense. There's usually no

00:54:36.300 --> 00:54:38.980
guns. It's a very unique type of offense. And

00:54:38.980 --> 00:54:41.039
I think the way that we normally approach that

00:54:41.039 --> 00:54:44.980
is to tell them it's fraud. This is fraud like

00:54:44.980 --> 00:54:48.380
anything else. It's lying on paperwork. The government

00:54:48.380 --> 00:54:51.320
has a responsibility to make sure packages and

00:54:51.320 --> 00:54:53.159
the ports are safe. If we don't know what's in

00:54:53.159 --> 00:54:56.079
containers, can't do that job. The other piece

00:54:56.079 --> 00:54:58.000
is it's about the money. You know, it's always

00:54:58.000 --> 00:55:01.320
about profit and money. So I think those convincing

00:55:01.320 --> 00:55:03.619
a judge that these types of cases are important

00:55:03.619 --> 00:55:06.400
is a challenge for us sometimes. Oftentimes with

00:55:06.400 --> 00:55:09.699
the jury. they know they get it right off the

00:55:09.699 --> 00:55:13.820
bat. We've had a number of trials involving birds

00:55:13.820 --> 00:55:16.260
and other things that are smuggled. A jury gets

00:55:16.260 --> 00:55:19.039
it. Somebody put a live animal in a package and

00:55:19.039 --> 00:55:20.980
called it a kid's toy or plumbing equipment.

00:55:21.360 --> 00:55:24.119
I mean, they understand that. This person is

00:55:24.119 --> 00:55:26.900
making money by selling live animals. They knew

00:55:26.900 --> 00:55:28.900
what they were doing was wrong because we'll

00:55:28.900 --> 00:55:31.360
always have emails or text messages where the

00:55:31.360 --> 00:55:33.559
person's saying, I'm going to falsely declare

00:55:33.559 --> 00:55:36.130
this stuff, basically. You know, we know they

00:55:36.130 --> 00:55:38.210
have the intent and a jury I think gets it right

00:55:38.210 --> 00:55:40.530
away. So when we go to trial in wildlife crimes

00:55:40.530 --> 00:55:44.550
We I would say almost a hundred percent of the

00:55:44.550 --> 00:55:46.809
time get convictions I i'm having a hard time

00:55:46.809 --> 00:55:49.070
coming up with a wildlife crime trial where we

00:55:49.070 --> 00:55:51.469
had an acquittal Yeah, I don't remember one during

00:55:51.469 --> 00:55:53.230
my career at all. Yeah, and i've been doing this

00:55:53.230 --> 00:55:55.929
for 17 years now and I don't remember one either.

00:55:56.070 --> 00:55:58.989
Yeah So a jury I think gets it but then when

00:55:58.989 --> 00:56:01.230
it comes time for sentencing a judge is a different

00:56:01.230 --> 00:56:03.869
different kind of person to convince Which is

00:56:03.869 --> 00:56:06.420
different challenges for us And you know, one

00:56:06.420 --> 00:56:08.440
of the things Mark was mentioning for proof for

00:56:08.440 --> 00:56:10.320
trials, when you're dealing with felonies, you

00:56:10.320 --> 00:56:12.360
got to show some kind of bad faith, some sort

00:56:12.360 --> 00:56:15.780
of mental intent to violate the law. The smuggling

00:56:15.780 --> 00:56:18.440
statute, for instance, requires that. So we're

00:56:18.440 --> 00:56:20.159
not always going to have a confession, but there's

00:56:20.159 --> 00:56:22.659
other ways that we can show that so -and -so

00:56:22.659 --> 00:56:26.039
knew that they were violating the law. And false

00:56:26.039 --> 00:56:28.179
declarations, the way they lied about paperwork.

00:56:28.820 --> 00:56:32.099
Or the way that things are, we catch smugglers

00:56:32.099 --> 00:56:36.230
in the way they package. You were involved on

00:56:36.230 --> 00:56:39.469
a coral investigation, which was a major investigation

00:56:39.469 --> 00:56:42.070
that we did. And in that case, the defendant

00:56:42.070 --> 00:56:44.610
companies, they were importing protected corals,

00:56:44.809 --> 00:56:47.090
along with importing corals that were legal.

00:56:47.409 --> 00:56:50.650
The legal ones would be at the top of these plastic

00:56:50.650 --> 00:56:53.409
bags in the salt water. Then there'd be some

00:56:53.409 --> 00:56:56.369
newspaper. And below that, you had the protected

00:56:56.369 --> 00:56:59.090
corals that were being hidden. Or we've seen

00:56:59.090 --> 00:57:01.289
suitcases for like Asian songbirds or whatever.

00:57:01.579 --> 00:57:03.800
where they're in the suitcase, suddenly there's

00:57:03.800 --> 00:57:06.239
a layer, there's clothing at the top, then there's

00:57:06.239 --> 00:57:08.800
a layer of a foil or something like that, and

00:57:08.800 --> 00:57:11.550
then below that we've got. the contraband, the

00:57:11.550 --> 00:57:13.769
smuggled animals. Yeah, the method itself is

00:57:13.769 --> 00:57:15.550
kind of a... The method tells you they know that

00:57:15.550 --> 00:57:17.269
they're breaking the law. Why go through that

00:57:17.269 --> 00:57:19.389
trouble? Yeah, and we're not prosecuting record

00:57:19.389 --> 00:57:22.210
-keeping offenses. They're importing a wa -mei

00:57:22.210 --> 00:57:24.869
and they call it a shamathrush, which is an Asian

00:57:24.869 --> 00:57:27.210
songbird thing. These aren't technical offenses.

00:57:27.550 --> 00:57:30.050
They're smuggling, calling it something completely

00:57:30.050 --> 00:57:33.329
different. We had a case involving cobras that

00:57:33.329 --> 00:57:36.250
were smuggled in Pringles jars. Live cobras in

00:57:36.250 --> 00:57:38.369
Pringles jars. I mean, can you imagine if a wildlife

00:57:38.369 --> 00:57:40.789
inspector who didn't know there was a cobra in

00:57:40.789 --> 00:57:42.710
there, opened up what he thought was a food container

00:57:42.710 --> 00:57:44.989
and he got bit by a baby cobra. Yeah. I mean,

00:57:45.050 --> 00:57:46.769
it could have been lethal. It could have been.

00:57:46.929 --> 00:57:48.449
Sometimes it could be pretty serious. And you

00:57:48.449 --> 00:57:50.190
should also be pointed out is very often these

00:57:50.190 --> 00:57:51.989
animals don't or a good number of the animals

00:57:51.989 --> 00:57:54.230
don't survive. Right. You know, the smuggling.

00:57:54.409 --> 00:57:57.530
Yeah. We had one guy who was trying to smuggle

00:57:57.530 --> 00:58:00.369
tortoises out of the country. He used a fake

00:58:00.369 --> 00:58:03.690
name and just his luck. The fake name he used

00:58:03.690 --> 00:58:08.489
was a name that was, you know, caused this thing

00:58:08.489 --> 00:58:10.469
to be inspected, but at first it was just put

00:58:10.469 --> 00:58:12.889
it, so it wasn't allowed to go out, and the package

00:58:12.889 --> 00:58:15.969
was just put into the dead male category or whatever.

00:58:16.110 --> 00:58:17.909
It was just sitting there, and after a while,

00:58:17.989 --> 00:58:20.090
someone smelled something funny from the package.

00:58:20.269 --> 00:58:22.190
It opened up and one of the tortoises already

00:58:22.190 --> 00:58:26.409
rotted away. Or with birds coming in, not all

00:58:26.409 --> 00:58:28.809
of them survive it, because these are being put

00:58:28.809 --> 00:58:32.710
in the luggage compartment of an airliner. It's

00:58:32.710 --> 00:58:35.780
freezing temperatures up there. You know, it's

00:58:35.780 --> 00:58:37.539
no surprise that a lot of them will die in the

00:58:37.539 --> 00:58:40.000
process. Yeah, we used to say, you know, smugglers,

00:58:40.139 --> 00:58:43.579
if they needed to bring in 100 birds, reptiles,

00:58:43.639 --> 00:58:46.679
whatever it was, they actually needed to bring

00:58:46.679 --> 00:58:48.960
in 200 because they could count on about a 50

00:58:48.960 --> 00:58:50.920
% mortality rate because of the way they have

00:58:50.920 --> 00:58:53.539
to hide things. It's very cruel to the animal,

00:58:54.059 --> 00:58:56.699
right? Keeping it from making noise, so they'll

00:58:56.699 --> 00:58:59.099
often tape its mouth shut or tape something in

00:58:59.099 --> 00:59:01.679
its mouth so that restricts breathing. Yeah,

00:59:01.739 --> 00:59:06.139
it's not a... Pretty thing. I think for me as

00:59:06.139 --> 00:59:08.960
an investigator, one of the biggest proof issues

00:59:08.960 --> 00:59:13.139
I always had to tackle was your victims and your

00:59:13.139 --> 00:59:18.340
witnesses can't give you a statement. Our victims

00:59:18.340 --> 00:59:21.980
cannot come testify in court. They can't give

00:59:21.980 --> 00:59:24.500
a statement about what happened to them. And

00:59:24.500 --> 00:59:27.559
so that's a challenge in terms of developing

00:59:27.559 --> 00:59:31.679
evidence against people, for sure. How about

00:59:31.679 --> 00:59:35.530
this? We discussed this, you've been really lucky

00:59:35.530 --> 00:59:37.730
to have this dedicated environmental crimes unit.

00:59:39.250 --> 00:59:41.670
What are the benefits of having that unit? Like,

00:59:41.670 --> 00:59:45.309
what do you see as the benefits for counter wildlife

00:59:45.309 --> 00:59:47.630
trafficking, protection of wildlife, enforcement

00:59:47.630 --> 00:59:52.010
of wildlife laws? How does having a dedicated

00:59:52.010 --> 00:59:53.969
unit at the US Attorney's Office for the Central

00:59:53.969 --> 00:59:56.590
District really benefit that or help that? I

00:59:56.590 --> 00:59:59.789
mean, in a bunch of ways. I think one of the

01:00:00.639 --> 01:00:03.539
most important ways is these are complicated

01:00:03.539 --> 01:00:08.420
statutes that we're dealing with. Often the judges

01:00:08.420 --> 01:00:12.659
in our cases have never dealt with the statutes

01:00:12.659 --> 01:00:15.139
that we're charging. And some of the statutes

01:00:15.139 --> 01:00:18.239
are very complicated, like the Lacey Act. And

01:00:18.239 --> 01:00:22.780
so it helps to have prosecutors who have charged

01:00:22.780 --> 01:00:26.019
these cases repeatedly and who have some kind

01:00:26.019 --> 01:00:29.400
of institutional knowledge about which statutes

01:00:29.400 --> 01:00:32.840
apply, and the, you know, the pluses and minuses

01:00:32.840 --> 01:00:36.280
of charging a kind of maybe an obscure statute

01:00:36.280 --> 01:00:38.360
that, I mean, sometimes the statutes have never

01:00:38.360 --> 01:00:41.079
been charged before. There's no background law

01:00:41.079 --> 01:00:46.320
on them. And so because we've all been in the

01:00:46.320 --> 01:00:49.340
section for, I mean, I'm the newest prosecutor

01:00:49.340 --> 01:00:51.820
and I've been in the section for about nine years.

01:00:52.079 --> 01:00:55.159
But you really develop some expertise, which

01:00:55.159 --> 01:00:57.739
wouldn't be the case if you were a prosecutor

01:00:57.739 --> 01:01:00.420
who said, for example, is doing mostly, you know,

01:01:00.300 --> 01:01:03.699
Drug or gang or gun cases and just got handed

01:01:03.699 --> 01:01:08.079
a wildlife case. So I think that's a One of the

01:01:08.079 --> 01:01:10.519
biggest benefits in my opinion and Matt, I think

01:01:10.519 --> 01:01:13.119
the the other thing is when new prosecutors come

01:01:13.119 --> 01:01:15.420
to the section There's a steep learning curve.

01:01:15.460 --> 01:01:18.099
There's a Lacey act endangered species act site

01:01:18.099 --> 01:01:20.380
ease all these things And the interesting thing

01:01:20.380 --> 01:01:23.139
is the bad guys know these rules like the back

01:01:23.139 --> 01:01:24.960
of their hand. That's right. They know the code

01:01:24.960 --> 01:01:28.000
of federal regulations and the weights and the

01:01:28.000 --> 01:01:29.860
types of species. They've got all this stuff

01:01:29.860 --> 01:01:32.639
dialed and they've been working around it for

01:01:32.639 --> 01:01:34.820
years. A new lawyer comes to the section and

01:01:34.820 --> 01:01:37.559
they're like, what is this? We're giving them

01:01:37.559 --> 01:01:39.579
books on regulations and training and stuff.

01:01:39.619 --> 01:01:42.500
And it takes time to ramp up. And I think when

01:01:42.500 --> 01:01:45.000
you have institutional knowledge like these two

01:01:45.000 --> 01:01:47.900
guys in the section who've been there for a decade

01:01:47.900 --> 01:01:50.760
and well over a decade, you know, that kind of

01:01:50.760 --> 01:01:52.780
a specialization is important because we can

01:01:52.780 --> 01:01:55.659
work cases efficiently. We're not having to build

01:01:55.659 --> 01:01:57.360
the plane while we're flying it. We've already

01:01:57.360 --> 01:01:59.000
built the plane and we just take off and go.

01:01:59.900 --> 01:02:02.579
So, you know, we want to keep pace with the criminals

01:02:02.579 --> 01:02:05.079
who are way ahead on the regulations. And I think

01:02:05.079 --> 01:02:08.679
specialization is crucial to that for us. Yeah,

01:02:08.679 --> 01:02:10.500
you know, from the investigator side, I have

01:02:10.500 --> 01:02:13.039
to agree because if you're working in a district

01:02:13.039 --> 01:02:15.039
that does not have an environmental crimes unit,

01:02:15.039 --> 01:02:17.480
prosecutors who haven't done it, It's the agent's

01:02:17.480 --> 01:02:21.420
job to kind of educate the prosecutor about Lacey

01:02:21.420 --> 01:02:25.659
Act or with all the statutes. And we cannot get

01:02:25.659 --> 01:02:27.360
into this now because we'll be here for another

01:02:27.360 --> 01:02:30.679
hour and a half. But the Lacey Act really gets

01:02:30.679 --> 01:02:32.360
complicated when you get in to start talking

01:02:32.360 --> 01:02:35.219
about the triggering event. I just saw Mark.

01:02:35.320 --> 01:02:36.800
He just put his head down and shook his head

01:02:36.800 --> 01:02:40.260
because. I avoid the Lacey Act my entire career.

01:02:40.500 --> 01:02:42.960
It's like a less. How many conversations have

01:02:42.960 --> 01:02:47.599
we had, agent to prosecutor? Where's the triggering

01:02:47.599 --> 01:02:50.320
event right? Oh my gosh and a lot of times in

01:02:50.320 --> 01:02:52.300
order to just so listeners know in order for

01:02:52.300 --> 01:02:55.139
the Lacey act to apply some some event has to

01:02:55.139 --> 01:02:56.519
occur and that's what we call the triggering

01:02:56.519 --> 01:02:59.880
event and often there's disagreement between

01:02:59.880 --> 01:03:02.119
agent and prosecutor about whether the triggering

01:03:02.119 --> 01:03:04.940
event happened or what it was and Sometimes there's

01:03:04.940 --> 01:03:06.960
disagreement between two prosecutors about what

01:03:06.960 --> 01:03:11.139
it is It's it can it takes time to dial in on

01:03:11.139 --> 01:03:13.639
that and so yeah having a dedicated unit people

01:03:13.639 --> 01:03:17.340
with institutional memory and experience is super

01:03:17.340 --> 01:03:19.440
important. Yeah, and the bad guys know that the

01:03:19.440 --> 01:03:23.119
Lacey Act is complicated. Yes. And if they drive

01:03:23.119 --> 01:03:24.980
something to a certain place and send it out

01:03:24.980 --> 01:03:26.980
of a certain facility, they can kind of get around

01:03:26.980 --> 01:03:28.920
certain rules and things like that. So yeah,

01:03:28.940 --> 01:03:33.219
they're ahead on that. Right, right. What about

01:03:33.219 --> 01:03:37.019
just kind of thinking overall during your careers?

01:03:38.949 --> 01:03:41.130
What kind of contributions do you feel the U

01:03:41.130 --> 01:03:42.769
.S. Attorney's Office for the Central District

01:03:42.769 --> 01:03:46.050
has made to protecting wildlife and plants native

01:03:46.050 --> 01:03:48.789
to this country, as well as wildlife and plants

01:03:48.789 --> 01:03:52.530
around the world? Yeah, I mean, I think across

01:03:52.530 --> 01:03:54.769
administrations, we have different priorities

01:03:54.769 --> 01:03:57.650
with different U .S. Attorneys. Our current U

01:03:57.650 --> 01:03:59.889
.S. Attorney has been very supportive of dog

01:03:59.889 --> 01:04:02.929
fighting cases, international cases involving,

01:04:02.989 --> 01:04:05.800
you know, targets bringing in fighting dogs to

01:04:05.800 --> 01:04:07.900
the district and selling them and you know fighting

01:04:07.900 --> 01:04:09.860
dogs can be tens of thousands of dollars and

01:04:09.860 --> 01:04:13.139
it's a very gruesome sport. You know we've had

01:04:13.139 --> 01:04:16.300
other U .S. attorneys focused on different aspects

01:04:16.300 --> 01:04:19.719
like international trafficking of large things

01:04:19.719 --> 01:04:22.039
like elephant tusks and rhino horns. We've done

01:04:22.039 --> 01:04:24.539
big rhino horn prosecutions under those administrations

01:04:24.539 --> 01:04:27.780
so I think every U .S. attorney has different

01:04:27.780 --> 01:04:30.699
priorities and our job as prosecutors is to make

01:04:30.699 --> 01:04:33.349
sure that we're putting our resources into whatever

01:04:33.349 --> 01:04:35.630
that US attorney wants to prioritize. Right.

01:04:36.230 --> 01:04:38.989
You know, we there's not 50 of us in the section.

01:04:39.369 --> 01:04:42.030
We have to specialize and we have to prioritize

01:04:42.030 --> 01:04:45.469
and we want to do cases where there's, you know,

01:04:45.630 --> 01:04:49.130
repeat offenders, a lot of intent. You know,

01:04:49.130 --> 01:04:51.289
we're not prosecuting borderline cases here.

01:04:51.349 --> 01:04:54.510
We're prosecuting cases where the target we know

01:04:54.510 --> 01:04:57.269
is guilty because they have the criminal intent

01:04:57.269 --> 01:04:59.570
to do the thing that we're accusing them of doing.

01:04:59.610 --> 01:05:01.889
They've done it many, many times. you know, high

01:05:01.889 --> 01:05:04.150
dollar value, we're taking folks off the street

01:05:04.150 --> 01:05:06.289
that are at the pinnacle of their game, whether

01:05:06.289 --> 01:05:09.309
it's rhino horns or butterflies or Asian songbirds,

01:05:09.849 --> 01:05:12.030
those are the impact cases we want to do in this

01:05:12.030 --> 01:05:14.670
district. And I think it's just a matter of aligning

01:05:14.670 --> 01:05:17.389
our resources with the US Attorney's priorities

01:05:17.389 --> 01:05:20.389
and kind of getting the job done. Yeah, you know,

01:05:20.409 --> 01:05:22.329
I think it's that's it's critically important

01:05:22.329 --> 01:05:24.769
for investigators and agents to understand what

01:05:24.769 --> 01:05:27.230
the current US Attorney's priorities are too,

01:05:27.789 --> 01:05:31.260
because The number one question, I think, see

01:05:31.260 --> 01:05:33.139
if you guys agree with this, the number one question

01:05:33.139 --> 01:05:35.219
an agent can answer when they come into your

01:05:35.219 --> 01:05:38.900
office is, here's my case, here's why it's important,

01:05:39.059 --> 01:05:40.519
right? Because you're going to ask, why is this

01:05:40.519 --> 01:05:42.519
important? Why do I care today about butterflies?

01:05:42.860 --> 01:05:46.619
Why do I care about seabirds, right? The agent

01:05:46.619 --> 01:05:49.000
needs to be able to articulate to you guys, how

01:05:49.000 --> 01:05:52.219
does this mesh with US attorney's priorities

01:05:52.219 --> 01:05:55.139
for this district, right? Yeah, 100%. And it

01:05:55.139 --> 01:05:59.610
could be, for example, I didn't know but in the

01:05:59.610 --> 01:06:02.710
Asian songbird community, you can have really

01:06:02.710 --> 01:06:06.110
high value songbirds that are traded for counterfeit

01:06:06.110 --> 01:06:08.429
currency, which is then traded for narcotics

01:06:08.429 --> 01:06:10.650
and the narcotics are then traded for firearms.

01:06:10.750 --> 01:06:13.110
And that may be a high priority for your particular

01:06:13.110 --> 01:06:15.190
US attorney. And you have this circle of contraband

01:06:15.190 --> 01:06:17.610
that's exchanged depending, you know, you could

01:06:17.610 --> 01:06:20.530
trade a wildlife part for a gun and we have a

01:06:20.530 --> 01:06:22.190
lot of wildlife traffickers that have firearms.

01:06:23.210 --> 01:06:25.590
So transnational crime is a big problem that

01:06:25.590 --> 01:06:28.039
we're trying to focus on and wildlife smuggling

01:06:28.039 --> 01:06:32.380
is central to that because it is a piece that

01:06:32.380 --> 01:06:35.880
is used in that by criminals to exchange for

01:06:35.880 --> 01:06:38.800
other things to accomplish their crimes. You

01:06:38.800 --> 01:06:40.219
know what I think is a great example of that

01:06:40.219 --> 01:06:43.820
is zoonotic disease. Oh interesting. Yeah because

01:06:43.820 --> 01:06:47.420
you mentioned songbirds and you know in my mind

01:06:47.420 --> 01:06:49.599
the thing I'm my friends always tease me about

01:06:49.599 --> 01:06:52.079
it because I'm scared to death that bird flu

01:06:52.079 --> 01:06:53.980
is going to get into this country in a form.

01:06:54.360 --> 01:06:56.639
that is easily transmitted to humans at a 30

01:06:56.639 --> 01:06:59.280
% mortality rate. And if it happens, it's going

01:06:59.280 --> 01:07:02.559
to come from wild birds. And wild bird smuggling

01:07:02.559 --> 01:07:05.460
is a potential corridor for that. Yeah, 100%.

01:07:05.460 --> 01:07:06.800
I'll tell you what else is interesting. I remember

01:07:06.800 --> 01:07:08.820
years ago, I had a lizard smuggling case where

01:07:08.820 --> 01:07:10.159
lizards were being brought in, I believe, from

01:07:10.159 --> 01:07:13.340
Australia. Well, because it came in from overseas,

01:07:13.519 --> 01:07:15.599
and we caught the guy, and he pled, and so forth.

01:07:15.869 --> 01:07:18.090
But the lizards couldn't be returned back to

01:07:18.090 --> 01:07:20.570
the natural habitat. They had to be kept in a

01:07:20.570 --> 01:07:23.050
special place because they may have some kind

01:07:23.050 --> 01:07:26.670
of virus or something in their biology that could

01:07:26.670 --> 01:07:29.050
be extremely harmful to the native lizards here.

01:07:29.309 --> 01:07:31.949
So they could not go back. There's a whole other

01:07:31.949 --> 01:07:34.610
topic for a podcast, too, about repatriation

01:07:34.610 --> 01:07:37.170
of live animals and how difficult that is. Yeah.

01:07:37.170 --> 01:07:39.050
And there's an international trade component,

01:07:39.389 --> 01:07:42.070
too. So timber cases, for example. You can have

01:07:42.070 --> 01:07:45.820
protected wood species. that other countries

01:07:45.820 --> 01:07:48.340
are kind of, they're called anti -dumping cases

01:07:48.340 --> 01:07:51.119
where they're taking this hardwood and selling

01:07:51.119 --> 01:07:53.679
it very cheaply in the United States and out

01:07:53.679 --> 01:07:57.800
competing local folks for the same wood. And

01:07:57.800 --> 01:07:59.760
those are the types of cases that's essentially

01:07:59.760 --> 01:08:02.199
a fraud case, but it impacts international trade

01:08:02.199 --> 01:08:04.820
because you're dealing with massive quantities

01:08:04.820 --> 01:08:07.199
of this wood that's being sold at pennies and

01:08:07.199 --> 01:08:09.940
then it's used for furniture or guitars, for

01:08:09.940 --> 01:08:13.610
example, or whatever the case may be. there's

01:08:13.610 --> 01:08:16.350
a big kind of international trade aspect to it

01:08:16.350 --> 01:08:18.630
that we could go into for a long, long time.

01:08:18.810 --> 01:08:21.029
If we start adding timber and plants into our

01:08:21.029 --> 01:08:23.729
calculation, it gets big. Dennis, I think you

01:08:23.729 --> 01:08:26.090
and I did a Rosewood case involving guitar. Mark

01:08:26.090 --> 01:08:27.689
was in on that one, too. I think you were in

01:08:27.689 --> 01:08:29.430
on that, too. That's what I was thinking about,

01:08:29.989 --> 01:08:32.090
trying to export it overseas. We did a controlled

01:08:32.090 --> 01:08:33.930
delivery search warrant or something like that.

01:08:34.829 --> 01:08:37.789
So I could talk to you guys all day, in part

01:08:37.789 --> 01:08:39.949
because I know you so well and it's so natural

01:08:39.949 --> 01:08:43.329
just to, you know. Talk shop with you guys. I

01:08:43.329 --> 01:08:45.350
love it. It's it's been a pleasure to have you

01:08:45.350 --> 01:08:47.750
on the show We're running out of time before

01:08:47.750 --> 01:08:51.489
we sign off though I'll just give you go one

01:08:51.489 --> 01:08:53.890
at a time You know your closing thoughts anything

01:08:53.890 --> 01:08:56.069
you want the public to know about what you do

01:08:56.069 --> 01:08:59.689
or the cases you've handled or anything I'll

01:08:59.689 --> 01:09:02.750
just one thing we haven't talked about is just

01:09:02.750 --> 01:09:06.090
all of the work we do It's not exactly wildlife

01:09:06.090 --> 01:09:09.329
focused. It's more environmental, like oil spills,

01:09:09.649 --> 01:09:11.850
forest fires, that sort of thing. We do a lot

01:09:11.850 --> 01:09:15.250
of those cases. And in those cases, there's a

01:09:15.250 --> 01:09:17.750
lot of human victims, but there's also wildlife

01:09:17.750 --> 01:09:21.789
victims as well. So that's another important

01:09:21.789 --> 01:09:27.630
subject matter that we focus on a lot. And I

01:09:27.630 --> 01:09:31.930
think the public understands that we're enforcing

01:09:33.029 --> 01:09:36.170
criminal laws against wrongdoers, corporate wrongdoers,

01:09:36.550 --> 01:09:38.789
individual wrongdoers in Southern California

01:09:38.789 --> 01:09:44.590
for kind of disaster type events that also have

01:09:44.590 --> 01:09:47.350
a terrible impact on the environment. So it's

01:09:47.350 --> 01:09:50.430
another very rewarding element of what we do.

01:09:50.569 --> 01:09:52.409
That's a great point. And there's a public safety,

01:09:53.069 --> 01:09:55.510
public health issues get tangled up in this as

01:09:55.510 --> 01:09:58.510
well, right? Great. You just expound a little

01:09:58.510 --> 01:10:00.989
bit on what Matt was saying and our we're a relatively

01:10:00.989 --> 01:10:04.810
small section But our variety of cases and investigations

01:10:04.810 --> 01:10:08.890
is by far the largest we do everything from unsafe

01:10:08.890 --> 01:10:13.390
drugs unsafe air travel oil spills forest fires

01:10:13.390 --> 01:10:17.890
hazardous waste hazardous materials water pollution

01:10:17.890 --> 01:10:20.369
You name it where and these are and some of these

01:10:20.369 --> 01:10:23.569
are extremely complicated statutes, especially

01:10:23.569 --> 01:10:26.619
because of the regulations, right? So it's so

01:10:26.619 --> 01:10:30.479
important for us to maintain our section and

01:10:30.479 --> 01:10:32.819
to have the institutional knowledge because,

01:10:33.399 --> 01:10:35.659
you know, I remember the first hazardous waste

01:10:35.659 --> 01:10:38.020
case that I did. I was thinking, oh, waste is

01:10:38.020 --> 01:10:39.640
just, you know, something you're just throwing

01:10:39.640 --> 01:10:42.140
away. And I remember Mark was about to go to

01:10:42.140 --> 01:10:44.039
trial. I think I got this case about 30 days

01:10:44.039 --> 01:10:45.979
or something before the trial date. And Mark

01:10:45.979 --> 01:10:47.909
says, look, Dennis. You better start taking a

01:10:47.909 --> 01:10:49.510
look at these regulations. A waste is not what

01:10:49.510 --> 01:10:51.770
you think it is. And it turns out a waste is

01:10:51.770 --> 01:10:54.229
something that's being stored with the intent

01:10:54.229 --> 01:10:56.449
of disposing it later, whatever, or just being

01:10:56.449 --> 01:10:58.970
stored in lieu, actually, in lieu of disposal.

01:10:59.289 --> 01:11:01.289
A different kind of definition. Everything was

01:11:01.289 --> 01:11:04.109
so technical, it drove me crazy. But the next

01:11:04.109 --> 01:11:06.470
time I got a hazardous waste case, I was much

01:11:06.470 --> 01:11:08.590
more up on it. So having that institutional knowledge,

01:11:08.770 --> 01:11:10.810
having somebody there to show me what to do on

01:11:10.810 --> 01:11:14.979
it, very complicated areas. Our judges, when

01:11:14.979 --> 01:11:17.239
we bring our cases, they typically, and I think

01:11:17.239 --> 01:11:18.619
this was mentioned before, they haven't seen

01:11:18.619 --> 01:11:21.119
this kind of case before, or rarely. So they're

01:11:21.119 --> 01:11:23.640
looking to us for exactly what do we got here?

01:11:23.699 --> 01:11:25.699
And they rely on us to give them the straight

01:11:25.699 --> 01:11:29.520
story and explain it in a coherent, appropriate

01:11:29.520 --> 01:11:32.539
way. That's an excellent point. Environmental

01:11:32.539 --> 01:11:34.699
crime encompasses a heck of a lot more than wildlife

01:11:34.699 --> 01:11:38.300
crime. And Dennis, I will say that... If you

01:11:38.300 --> 01:11:40.539
want to understand how complicated the law is

01:11:40.539 --> 01:11:42.899
that you guys deal with, you only need to walk

01:11:42.899 --> 01:11:47.220
into Dennis's office. I have never seen a more

01:11:47.220 --> 01:11:50.460
precarious situation of an impending paper avalanche.

01:11:50.640 --> 01:11:53.359
Not anymore. No. I've got two witnesses here.

01:11:53.739 --> 01:11:56.479
How does my desk look? No, it's still bad. It's

01:11:56.479 --> 01:11:59.500
been cleaned slightly, but it's no longer hazardous

01:11:59.500 --> 01:12:02.439
waste. It's clean. Every night I clear it off.

01:12:02.579 --> 01:12:05.800
There's not a... I'm telling you, I've sat in

01:12:05.800 --> 01:12:07.819
his office at night while we're preparing for

01:12:07.819 --> 01:12:10.760
trial between two, six and a half foot tall piles

01:12:10.760 --> 01:12:13.000
of paper, wondering when they're going to collapse

01:12:13.000 --> 01:12:16.859
on me. But I will say, if I ask you for, where's

01:12:16.859 --> 01:12:19.539
that document? You know exactly which pile the

01:12:19.539 --> 01:12:24.659
document is. I believe it when I see it. I'll

01:12:24.659 --> 01:12:26.439
believe it when I see it. Every night I clear

01:12:26.439 --> 01:12:29.909
it off. Okay, Mark closing thoughts, huh? I mean

01:12:29.909 --> 01:12:32.170
look I feel like I have the greatest job in the

01:12:32.170 --> 01:12:36.189
world I get to come to work with great colleagues

01:12:36.189 --> 01:12:38.729
and work with great agents I think there's a

01:12:38.729 --> 01:12:40.989
misnomer out there when you say you prosecute

01:12:40.989 --> 01:12:43.770
environmental crimes that you're like, you know

01:12:43.770 --> 01:12:46.789
hippie Greenpeace tree hugger not to disparage

01:12:46.789 --> 01:12:49.470
any of those organizations, but that's really

01:12:49.470 --> 01:12:51.989
not what we are You know, we're talking about

01:12:51.989 --> 01:12:54.609
prosecuting the worst of the worst, you know

01:12:54.609 --> 01:12:58.000
massive toxic Waste you know, these aren't technical

01:12:58.000 --> 01:13:01.279
offenses. These are like really horrible situations

01:13:01.279 --> 01:13:03.220
involving forest fires that have burned down

01:13:03.220 --> 01:13:07.000
people's houses or you know had oil spills that

01:13:07.000 --> 01:13:10.279
have killed animals and closed businesses because

01:13:10.279 --> 01:13:12.399
people can't go to the beach so businesses go

01:13:12.399 --> 01:13:15.899
under You know, we've worked toxic waste cases

01:13:15.899 --> 01:13:19.279
where Houses around dumps or you know have people

01:13:19.279 --> 01:13:21.380
that are literally throwing up every day, right?

01:13:21.460 --> 01:13:23.500
You know, these aren't technical violations.

01:13:23.520 --> 01:13:26.600
These are really important cases and we get to

01:13:26.600 --> 01:13:30.159
advocate for victims and do the best cases out

01:13:30.159 --> 01:13:33.220
there. So like I said, I feel lucky to work with

01:13:33.220 --> 01:13:35.300
these guys that I think they said it best when

01:13:35.300 --> 01:13:37.659
they said that our section does the widest variety

01:13:37.659 --> 01:13:39.600
of cases in the office. And I think that's right.

01:13:40.159 --> 01:13:42.119
But I would also add that I think we do some

01:13:42.119 --> 01:13:45.399
of the most important cases in the office. Going

01:13:45.399 --> 01:13:48.060
back to the case that I mentioned about the dive

01:13:48.060 --> 01:13:51.420
boat, when you have a captain out there who takes

01:13:51.420 --> 01:13:54.840
33 passengers out and all of them die in a fire

01:13:54.840 --> 01:13:57.319
on the boat, That's a bad case. We're going to

01:13:57.319 --> 01:14:00.560
get involved and prosecute that case. We've charged

01:14:00.560 --> 01:14:02.899
the Palisades fire case, which is ongoing now.

01:14:03.560 --> 01:14:07.560
Over 6 ,000 structures burned. We've charged

01:14:07.560 --> 01:14:11.319
the Orange County oil spill case that impacted

01:14:11.319 --> 01:14:14.279
all kinds of businesses and wildlife and other

01:14:14.279 --> 01:14:18.939
things. And that's what DOJ should be doing.

01:14:19.340 --> 01:14:22.600
The worst cases involving A lot of loss and a

01:14:22.600 --> 01:14:24.340
lot of victims and that's kind of what we do

01:14:24.340 --> 01:14:26.859
every day as our job. So Yeah, the tough case

01:14:26.859 --> 01:14:30.270
appreciate you having us on to it. You were really

01:14:30.270 --> 01:14:31.909
a tremendous agent to work with over the years.

01:14:32.029 --> 01:14:35.210
I mean that. I learned a ton from you. You were

01:14:35.210 --> 01:14:38.390
a seasoned agent when I was just a baby AUSA

01:14:38.390 --> 01:14:40.170
learning the ropes. You were very patient with

01:14:40.170 --> 01:14:42.189
me when I didn't know what the Lacey Act was,

01:14:42.510 --> 01:14:44.210
even though I closed it and never looked at it

01:14:44.210 --> 01:14:46.789
again after you studiously instructed me about

01:14:46.789 --> 01:14:48.770
the multiple steps. I thought, that's interesting.

01:14:48.869 --> 01:14:52.810
I'll deal with that. But your undercover abilities

01:14:52.810 --> 01:14:55.770
were second to none. We still use a lot of your

01:14:55.770 --> 01:14:59.350
cases as teaching tools for agents about how

01:14:59.239 --> 01:15:03.159
how to identify a problem and proactively address

01:15:03.159 --> 01:15:06.420
that problem. Not just wait until the animal

01:15:06.420 --> 01:15:08.819
comes in through the port to know there's a problem

01:15:08.819 --> 01:15:10.340
out there and to go out there and do something

01:15:10.340 --> 01:15:12.079
about it. And that's what you did as an agent.

01:15:13.279 --> 01:15:15.020
And I think it was just really great working

01:15:15.020 --> 01:15:16.640
with you over the years. So appreciate you having

01:15:16.640 --> 01:15:18.579
us on. Well, thank you very much. That means

01:15:18.579 --> 01:15:20.460
everything to me. Because I was going to say

01:15:20.460 --> 01:15:24.439
in closing, too, that I always so appreciated

01:15:24.439 --> 01:15:26.640
the professionalism at the US Attorney's Office

01:15:26.640 --> 01:15:29.420
and the ability to work with you guys on tough

01:15:29.420 --> 01:15:32.819
issues and, you know, debate and argue with and

01:15:32.819 --> 01:15:36.020
maintain our good relationships. It was always

01:15:36.020 --> 01:15:39.659
a pleasure to try to do public good working with

01:15:39.659 --> 01:15:42.600
you guys. And for people who do not tune in on

01:15:42.600 --> 01:15:44.479
this YouTube channel for Nature's Secret Service,

01:15:44.579 --> 01:15:46.720
just to give you a sense, you know, I'm talking

01:15:46.720 --> 01:15:50.720
to three very straight lace, suit wearing, federal

01:15:50.720 --> 01:15:52.899
prosecutors, just what you would expect to see

01:15:52.899 --> 01:15:55.579
and who you would hope to be working the hard

01:15:55.579 --> 01:15:58.340
cases on your behalf. So thank you for all the

01:15:58.340 --> 01:16:00.439
work you guys do and thank you for coming on

01:16:00.439 --> 01:16:02.840
the show. It's going to be a great episode and

01:16:02.840 --> 01:16:04.800
I'll definitely have all three of you back together

01:16:04.800 --> 01:16:07.340
or individually, whatever you want. Sounds good.

01:16:07.520 --> 01:16:10.060
That's great. All right. All right. Thanks, everybody.

01:16:10.239 --> 01:16:12.399
Thanks for tuning in. It's been a great season.

01:16:12.819 --> 01:16:15.020
Be sure to be back for season three and watch

01:16:15.020 --> 01:16:18.060
the website for updates about Bonus episodes,

01:16:18.140 --> 01:16:21.560
shorts, and the premiere of season three. Thanks

01:16:21.560 --> 01:16:24.880
everybody. Thanks for listening. Nature's Secret

01:16:24.880 --> 01:16:27.579
Service is written and produced by me, Ed Newcomer,

01:16:27.840 --> 01:16:30.680
and is co -produced by the DHTV team here at

01:16:30.680 --> 01:16:32.920
California State University, Dominguez Hills.

01:16:33.279 --> 01:16:35.260
Follow us on social media and connect with us

01:16:35.260 --> 01:16:37.600
online at naturessecretservice .com.