WEBVTT

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If you want to learn more about the topics of

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today's episode, visit the podcast website at

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naturessecretservice .com. Thanks for listening.

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OK, people, listen up. Here we go. This is Nature's

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Secret Service, the podcast that puts you in

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the room with the men and women of wildlife law

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enforcement. I'm Ed Newcomer, your host. And

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today our guest is Mark Madison, a historian

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at the U .S. Fish and Wildlife Service in Shepherdstown,

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West Virginia, located at the National Conservation

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Training Center, NCTC. Mark, thank you so much

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for being on the episode. I've been looking forward

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to having you on as a guest for a long time.

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Me too. We had a little bit of a hiccup there

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with the government shut down. You were scheduled

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to be on a while ago, but we had the delay. But

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you're here now and that's all that matters.

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Mark, as you know, I was a special agent for

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many years and I did not even know that there

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was a historian for the U .S. Fish and Wildlife

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Service. One day, I was at NCTC for one of our

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special agent in -service programs, and I don't

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know how it came to my attention, but down in

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the basement below the auditorium is your offices

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and your archives. Maybe you came to speak to

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us, I don't know, but you invited us to go down

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there, so I just went down and met you and looked

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around, and it's astonishing. It's amazing. It's

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very cool what you've done down there. Tell the

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listeners and watchers, you know... I introduced

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you as a historian. What do you do? What do you

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do down there at NCTC? Great question. Nobody

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knows. I've been around underground. I've actually

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moved to another building. I'm above grade level,

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but there's no windows still. In 1999, Fish and

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Wildlife Service decided to hire their first

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historian. If I don't screw it up, hopefully

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there'll be more in the future. The primary thing

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I do, which you mentioned, Ed, and you saw, is

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manage the archives and museum. So we have the

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Fish and Wildlife Service Archives and Museum

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out here. And since we opened them in 1997, we've

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gotten about half a million items in the archives.

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And I'd have to say probably the division that's

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given us the most is Fish and Wildlife Service

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law enforcement. The archives are full of law

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enforcement, historic artifacts, confiscated

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items, things that tell the story about nature's

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Secret Service, basically. We also do displays

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out here, and then I give historic talks to a

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number of the courses out here to tell our Fish

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and Wildlife Service folks. about how the agency

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came into being, maybe how their program, be

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it law enforcement or migratory birds or refuges,

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came into being. And I have to say, you've seen

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where I worked, it's the best job in the world.

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Unlike most archives, so I'm a PhD historian,

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I did research and all the archives I went to

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was a world of paper. Tons and tons of paper.

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Thanks to law enforcement, our archives has rhino

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heads, bejeweled daggers, elephant tusks, all

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sorts of fascinating things, not to mention a

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lot of historic things that go back to 1900 that

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are wonderful to tell stories about, teach us

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a little about our history, and explain why law

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enforcement is really important over the last

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126 years, at least at the federal level. Yeah

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and you know like you said you have tangible

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things in your archives and one of the things

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i was so fascinated with is some of the things

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you have are equipment that was used by agents.

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Fifty sixty more more years ago and you know

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as an investigator myself who had the advantage

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of having sophisticated equipment of my era.

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It's so interesting to see what other agents

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had that would have been sophisticated equipment

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of their era Right, which is really cool. I'm

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so happy that it's there and I'm so happy you've

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taken an interest in documenting it Correct me

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if I'm wrong. I have always told people I believe

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it to be true, but you'll know You know US Fish

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and Wildlife Service courses under the US Department

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of Interior and I'll ask you in a second to explain

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the different names that the U .S. Fish and Wildlife

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Service has had over the years, but it's one

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of the oldest law enforcement agencies in the

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United States. One, it has many functions, but

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one of the functions of the U .S. Fish and Wildlife

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Service is law enforcement. And that goes back

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at least to the 1900s, right? I mean... Yeah,

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with the Lacey Act in 1900. Yeah. That's usually

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where I trace the origin point, is 1900. I think

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that is the first place that it said, you know,

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uh, our, our officers of that agency have law

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enforcement authority under Lacey act. So can

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you kind of explain the historical name changes

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and that the U S special service? I'll try. Okay.

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So we began way back in 1871 as the fish commission.

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So our agency was founded right after the civil

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war. The Fish Commission was chartered by President

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Ulysses S. Grant. So that gives you a context.

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It literally was right after the Civil War. And

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then there was a parallel agency that was in

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charge of all wildlife that's not a fish called

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the Biological Survey. And eventually those two

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bureaus, the Bureau of fisheries is what the

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Fish Commission was called eventually, and the

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Bureau of Biological Survey were combined in

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1940 to make the Fish and Wildlife Service, which

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is why we have a redundant name because fish

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is a type of wildlife. It's kind of a historical

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relic just like all the artifacts we were talking

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about. But our law enforcement function began

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in both agencies. There were actually fish law

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enforcement agents who tried to protect fish

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and maintain some federal regulations on fish.

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But the more substantive one where we trace our

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roots to was in the biological survey. And biological

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survey began its federal wildlife protection

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with the Lacey Act, an act that was proposed

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by John Lacey in Iowa. The Midwest is going to

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play a big role in our historic talks today,

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which is good. I'm from the Midwest. We always

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play for the most important history area. So

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it began in 1900 and our first folks who did

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law enforcement were called Lacey agents or Lacey

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inspectors. And it's actually somewhat similar.

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I don't know if you've had any wildlife inspectors

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on, but it's similar to what they do. Except

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today, our wildlife inspectors are often at seaports

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and airports and so on. The Lacey inspectors

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were at railroad junctions and that's where poachers

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were shipping illegally poached. wildlife to

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major urban areas, New York, Chicago, and so

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on. So these Lacey agents would hang out at railroad

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junctions and catch poachers shipping. you know,

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passenger pigeons or any other species to urban

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markets illegally after the Lacey Actress passed.

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Eventually, in the 1920s, we went through a variety

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of names. We went through game wardens. My favorite

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was Game Protector. That was kind of a charming

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name. Yeah, and then US Game Agent. became a

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popular one although we were informally known

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as duck cops because as we'll talk about later

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it was as migratory birds were kind of a critical

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part of our function particularly migratory waterfall

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until the present when we have a variety of names

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special agents wildlife inspectors and so on

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and they're also in the early years the the refuge

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officers the refuge law enforcement wing was

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part of that too. And we were talking about the

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archives. We have images of Lacey agents going

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back to 1900, confiscating uh tundra swans confiscating

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other swans from Chesapeake Bay and so on and

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they they were in fedoras and they look like

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they're from the 1900s all the way up to uh sadly

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9 11 we have rich quadagno's badge out here who

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died on flight 93 so right um the archive the

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museum kind of covers the whole trajectory of

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the last 126 years at least of federal wildlife

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law enforcement That is amazing. I'm definitely

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going to mind you for some of those photos that

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I can put on the website associated with this

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episode because we are going to go back in time

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a little bit to talk about some specific officers

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that you know about and one that I know about.

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The thing that I think is worthwhile talking

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about before that though is you mentioned market

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hunting and for listeners and watchers to get

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an understanding of what was going on in the

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country at that time. Correct me if I'm wrong,

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but basically, you know, the U .S. was kind of,

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its food sources were changing. And now moving

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toward more of a modern agricultural style production

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of food supply. But there was this tremendous

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demand for wild meat. from the Midwest and the

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West, the supply, the big markets and restaurants

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in Chicago, New York, all the big cities on the

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East Coast. And a lot of that wildlife was wild.

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I mean, it was wild. The game meat coming in

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was wild. And it was being poached at unbelievable

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levels, taken at unbelievable levels in the West.

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Let me ask you to describe something. A punt

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gun. To describe what a punt gun is. I think

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it'll give people an understanding of the kind

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of decimation that was happening in our wildlife

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populations just to supply these markets on the

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central and east coast. That's a great one. We

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have about three punt guns back here and they

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basically look like cannons. Right. 50 to 75

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pounds. You couldn't carry them into a blind

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or anything. They were hard mounted on a small

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boat, a punt boat has their name. And basically

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you shot them into a flock of waterfowl and you

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could kill 50 or 60 at a time. And clearly you

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weren't doing that for your own. pantry that

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was to be sold to urban markets. And we have

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old menus showing what these New York and Chicago

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restaurants were serving. And the menus are basically.

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all wild game. The problem with that was it made

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a lot of species highly endangered and threatened.

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It even made one species, the passenger pigeon,

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which was largely hunted for food and then shipped

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by rail to urban markets extinct. It had a huge

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impact. Anything you could eat, be it a mammal

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or a bird, the numbers just crashed. in the late

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1800s. I mean, it's hard to imagine today, but

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things like Canada geese, wild turkeys, you just

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didn't see anymore on the East Coast or the Midwest.

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They'd just been hunted nearly to extinction.

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So it really decimated the nation's resources.

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So shortly after the Civil War, America decided,

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you know, our next battle was going to be to

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save America's wildlife and law enforcement was

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the first major tool. that we used to do it.

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Yeah. And you know, law enforcement, I think,

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plays a super important role in protecting species,

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preventing them from going endangered or extinct.

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And part of that is giving them what I've always

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described as the breathing room they need to

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recover, right? And with these punt guns, for

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example, we're targeting ducks and geese. As

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those animals we've talked before on this podcast

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with other guests about flyways and migratory

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routes of migratory birds and you know, they

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may gather in a field by the tens of thousands

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and you know Half a dozen poachers out there

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with punt boats and punt guns Can can probably

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decimate half the half the ducks there and half

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the geese there in just a few days and that has

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significant impact on their ability to breed,

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feed, migrate. You're taking out a lot of animals

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from the environment in a very short period of

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time. And you mentioned the passenger pigeon.

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People always remember the huge herds of wild

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buffalo and bison that used to roam across the

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United States. But the passenger pigeon, I believe,

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was considered maybe the most numerous. wild

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animal in the united states it was maybe the

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world the most most populous avian species probably

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ever to exist right and it was hunted to extinction

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through this type of market hunting and uh you

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know market hunters game hogs there were people

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that weren't sportsmen they weren't sports hunters

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going out to shoot a goose for Christmas or at

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the family dinner. They were in it for the profit

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and they didn't care what happened to the species.

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And Ed, you bring up a good point. A lot of these

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punt guns come from places like the Chesapeake

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Bay. So these are choke points where you get

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over the course of a migratory period, millions

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of birds in this one area that you can just...

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decimate. The Gulf of Mexico, where they congregated

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along the Mississippi, along these flyways, is

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where the poachers congregated. What really did

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them in was rails. When the Transcontinental

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Railroad was built, when the nation was connected

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by rails, suddenly you could slaughter a lot

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more birds and get them quickly to urban markets

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and really make a profit without them spoiling

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and so on. That's really what did them in and

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threatened to do in a whole slew of other species.

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You mentioned bison around here where I'm in

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West Virginia, amazing as it is today to consider

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it. There weren't any white -tailed deer left.

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Most of the white -tailed deer that we have in

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Pennsylvania and West Virginia and these places

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which are rather ubiquitous now came from Michigan.

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They were transplanted. They just hunted them

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out of the area. It's just mind -boggling. Canada

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geese. We have so many of them now. You see them

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migrating. I saw them today when I went on a

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walk for lunch. They were removed largely from

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the East Coast and had to be brought back. So

00:15:12.720 --> 00:15:16.779
it was around 1900, around the time of the Lacey

00:15:16.779 --> 00:15:20.539
Act, it really was a low point. American wildlife

00:15:20.539 --> 00:15:23.000
and people were concerned with the future generations

00:15:23.000 --> 00:15:25.759
be able to see wildlife be able to engage in

00:15:25.759 --> 00:15:29.139
traditional sports like deer hunting and duck

00:15:29.139 --> 00:15:31.940
hunting for the next generation unless something

00:15:31.940 --> 00:15:35.240
changed. Yeah and we certainly do not want to

00:15:35.240 --> 00:15:38.399
repeat history right so no. these animals may

00:15:38.399 --> 00:15:40.379
appear to be very, like you said, ubiquitous.

00:15:40.419 --> 00:15:45.059
I can never say that word populous. There's a

00:15:45.059 --> 00:15:48.159
lot of them. There's a lot of them. But it may

00:15:48.159 --> 00:15:50.659
seem like there are a lot of them now. But we

00:15:50.659 --> 00:15:53.059
got to remember just not too long ago, they were

00:15:53.059 --> 00:15:55.659
pretty hard to find. And we had to actually spend

00:15:55.659 --> 00:16:00.460
a lot of our, you know, money, our government

00:16:00.460 --> 00:16:02.539
money to reintroduce a lot of these animals.

00:16:03.850 --> 00:16:05.889
And one of the things that really struck me when

00:16:05.889 --> 00:16:09.250
you just said that it was it was not about poaching

00:16:09.250 --> 00:16:13.370
to put food on your table. It was poaching for

00:16:13.370 --> 00:16:17.710
money. And that is something a hundred and now

00:16:17.710 --> 00:16:20.590
twenty five years later, that's still the driver

00:16:20.590 --> 00:16:23.850
between behind wildlife trafficking. It's money.

00:16:24.049 --> 00:16:27.169
It's greed. And, you know, it's so interesting

00:16:27.169 --> 00:16:31.049
to me that the wildlife protectors and Lacey

00:16:31.049 --> 00:16:35.070
agents of, you know, nineteen hundred to 1930s

00:16:35.070 --> 00:16:39.409
were chasing people who were driven by the same

00:16:39.409 --> 00:16:43.990
greed and money lust that we're chasing today,

00:16:44.330 --> 00:16:46.149
special agents. You'll see a lot of similarities

00:16:46.149 --> 00:16:50.730
historically between the type of people that

00:16:50.730 --> 00:16:54.309
engage in these illegal activities, between the

00:16:54.309 --> 00:16:57.830
reason they do it, you mentioned profit, and

00:16:57.830 --> 00:17:00.889
even some of the techniques we use to capture

00:17:00.889 --> 00:17:04.859
them. So history isn't just you know, timelines

00:17:04.859 --> 00:17:08.839
are boring old facts. There's lessons to be learned.

00:17:09.339 --> 00:17:12.880
And also a pride in being part of an organization

00:17:12.880 --> 00:17:16.079
that has ensured that you and I can still see

00:17:16.079 --> 00:17:21.339
deer and turkey, the geese, which it was questionable.

00:17:21.640 --> 00:17:23.619
We can't see passenger pigeons, we can't see

00:17:23.619 --> 00:17:26.519
ox, we can't see a number of species that Carolina

00:17:26.519 --> 00:17:28.700
parakeets, ivory -billed woodpeckers that are

00:17:28.700 --> 00:17:32.960
gone. But we saved most of them. And that's important.

00:17:33.150 --> 00:17:35.430
Yeah. Yeah. And we're going to talk now about

00:17:35.430 --> 00:17:38.470
a guy named John Perry, who came from this era

00:17:38.470 --> 00:17:41.109
a little bit later, 1900, but a little later.

00:17:41.670 --> 00:17:44.450
It's actually an interesting era in terms of

00:17:44.450 --> 00:17:46.670
law enforcement and crime in the United States.

00:17:47.329 --> 00:17:49.869
And he's one of the most interesting characters.

00:17:50.529 --> 00:17:53.630
And he's a great example of you mentioned a lot

00:17:53.630 --> 00:17:56.109
of the same techniques we use today were used

00:17:56.109 --> 00:17:58.849
then to catch bad guys. And one of the things

00:17:58.849 --> 00:18:02.369
I always tried to remind new agents of is that

00:18:03.430 --> 00:18:06.950
The most important skill you've got is good old

00:18:06.950 --> 00:18:10.349
-fashioned detective work. It doesn't matter

00:18:10.349 --> 00:18:13.650
if you don't necessarily need night vision, you

00:18:13.650 --> 00:18:16.130
don't necessarily need the most sophisticated

00:18:16.130 --> 00:18:19.930
equipment. Detective skills have been around

00:18:19.930 --> 00:18:22.690
for hundreds of years, and a good detective who's

00:18:22.690 --> 00:18:24.690
willing to get out on the street and put the

00:18:24.690 --> 00:18:27.369
shoe leather time in to go interview people and

00:18:27.369 --> 00:18:30.230
do surveillance, see what's going on, collect

00:18:30.230 --> 00:18:34.059
records. is way ahead of the guy who's just sitting

00:18:34.059 --> 00:18:35.960
in the dark with a pair of night vision goggles

00:18:35.960 --> 00:18:41.660
trying to watch something. Detective skills are

00:18:41.660 --> 00:18:44.579
the key. And if those are perfected any era,

00:18:44.940 --> 00:18:48.200
you're going to be fine. You're right. Absolutely.

00:18:48.359 --> 00:18:50.400
The most important law enforcement tool is your

00:18:50.400 --> 00:18:53.099
brain. Is your brain? Yeah, we'll see a lot of

00:18:53.099 --> 00:18:55.680
innovations over the years. And those aren't

00:18:55.680 --> 00:18:58.960
coming because they bought best tool. It's because

00:18:58.960 --> 00:19:02.619
they came up with a new technique to catch these

00:19:02.619 --> 00:19:05.720
folks. The poachers, the criminals, their techniques

00:19:05.720 --> 00:19:08.059
are always changing, so we have to evolve with

00:19:08.059 --> 00:19:12.220
them. Yes, but yet apply those basic detective

00:19:12.220 --> 00:19:14.480
skills that have worked for detectives going

00:19:14.480 --> 00:19:17.680
back hundreds of years. Let's talk about John

00:19:17.680 --> 00:19:22.000
Perry a little bit. In the timeline of different

00:19:22.000 --> 00:19:25.000
titles of wildlife officers for the U .S. Fish

00:19:25.000 --> 00:19:27.640
and Wildlife Service, Where does John Perry fall

00:19:27.640 --> 00:19:32.200
in this? What was his title? He was a game protector

00:19:32.200 --> 00:19:35.920
at the time, which was our name in the 1920s.

00:19:36.660 --> 00:19:39.960
And John Perry is one of my favorite law enforcement

00:19:39.960 --> 00:19:42.079
agents. I mean, it's one thing to talk about

00:19:42.079 --> 00:19:46.140
the laws, but that kind of makes your eyelids

00:19:46.140 --> 00:19:49.720
start to droop and so on. But it's the people,

00:19:49.880 --> 00:19:51.640
right? People have to enforce them. People have

00:19:51.640 --> 00:19:55.500
to be innovative. So John Perry is a law enforcement

00:19:55.500 --> 00:20:00.700
agent in the state of Illinois in the 1920s.

00:20:00.859 --> 00:20:03.359
And anybody that's seen the Untouchables and

00:20:03.359 --> 00:20:07.259
LEMS, That was a tough time to be any type of

00:20:07.259 --> 00:20:10.819
federal law enforcement agent because during

00:20:10.819 --> 00:20:14.720
prohibition there was an explosion of gang activity

00:20:14.720 --> 00:20:17.519
primarily involved in bootlegging and the center

00:20:17.519 --> 00:20:19.539
point of it was Chicago. There's a reason the

00:20:19.539 --> 00:20:22.059
Untouchables took place in Chicago because that's

00:20:22.059 --> 00:20:25.200
where the big gangs were. Dillinger, Al Capone,

00:20:25.359 --> 00:20:28.940
they were all in the Illinois area. its proximity

00:20:28.940 --> 00:20:33.900
to Canada and illegal booze made it a hotbed

00:20:33.900 --> 00:20:38.220
of crime. It was also by far the toughest place

00:20:38.220 --> 00:20:41.759
to be a federal wildlife agent. It was in Illinois.

00:20:42.079 --> 00:20:45.000
We have tons of cases where people struggled

00:20:45.000 --> 00:20:50.390
and it was dangerous work. A lot of incident

00:20:50.390 --> 00:20:53.930
reports from the 1920s involved federal wildlife

00:20:53.930 --> 00:20:57.990
agents going by themselves with one or two people

00:20:57.990 --> 00:21:02.069
stumbling upon illegal activities and being seriously

00:21:02.069 --> 00:21:05.650
injured. And so it was really dangerous work.

00:21:06.029 --> 00:21:09.869
And John Perry, through his innovation, actually

00:21:09.869 --> 00:21:13.569
made it somewhat less dangerous, but highly effective.

00:21:13.589 --> 00:21:16.660
And I appreciate that about John. So John, in

00:21:16.660 --> 00:21:20.740
this era knew that the bootleggers were also

00:21:20.740 --> 00:21:23.920
what we call duckleggers. So it turned out, just

00:21:23.920 --> 00:21:28.019
like today, people that have means of smuggling

00:21:28.019 --> 00:21:31.220
illegal things in the country aren't very discriminating

00:21:31.220 --> 00:21:34.140
about what they smuggle in. If you can smuggle

00:21:34.140 --> 00:21:37.279
in illegal drugs, you might also be smuggling

00:21:37.279 --> 00:21:39.279
in illegal wildlife parts, anything that can

00:21:39.279 --> 00:21:41.640
make a buck, as you said earlier. Well, back

00:21:41.640 --> 00:21:45.680
in the 20s, turned out that all of these smuggling

00:21:45.680 --> 00:21:49.279
pathways, these hidden parts and automobiles

00:21:49.279 --> 00:21:51.380
and trucks and so on that were bringing booze

00:21:51.380 --> 00:21:54.339
were also used by people like Al Capone and John

00:21:54.339 --> 00:21:57.559
Dillinger, all these gangs, to smuggle illegal

00:21:57.559 --> 00:22:00.019
wildlife, primarily ducks and geese, because

00:22:00.019 --> 00:22:02.710
there was a huge market and a huge demand and

00:22:02.710 --> 00:22:05.630
a huge profit to be made by selling these to

00:22:05.630 --> 00:22:08.430
restaurants and places like Chicago. So the duckleggers

00:22:08.430 --> 00:22:12.529
took off in the 1920s. Once you have illegal

00:22:12.529 --> 00:22:17.710
roots and illegal hiding cavities and stuff in

00:22:17.710 --> 00:22:20.230
cars and that you can you can smuggle anything.

00:22:20.670 --> 00:22:24.309
And then the challenge was how do we catch these

00:22:24.309 --> 00:22:28.390
guys. And John Perry came up with a unique and

00:22:28.390 --> 00:22:30.410
innovative way to do it that, as far as I can

00:22:30.410 --> 00:22:34.089
tell, hadn't been used before. It turned out

00:22:34.089 --> 00:22:37.569
that the duckleggers and bootleggers smuggled

00:22:37.569 --> 00:22:40.200
all this stuff into Chicago. But he usually came

00:22:40.200 --> 00:22:42.440
in with one or two people, and they would hire

00:22:42.440 --> 00:22:47.640
what at the time they called hobos. These were

00:22:47.640 --> 00:22:52.180
destitute people, often with alcohol problems

00:22:52.180 --> 00:22:53.960
that would hang around the waterfront. And they'd

00:22:53.960 --> 00:22:56.279
pay them a buck or two to unload their trucks.

00:22:57.200 --> 00:22:59.240
And John Perry knew that. Everybody knew it.

00:22:59.579 --> 00:23:02.339
And the beauty of hiring these people is there

00:23:02.339 --> 00:23:06.559
was no real way to trace them, and they didn't.

00:23:07.230 --> 00:23:09.230
testify against anybody. And even if they did,

00:23:09.609 --> 00:23:11.410
who would listen to them, right? They just say,

00:23:11.490 --> 00:23:14.410
well, this is a drunk person that hangs out at

00:23:14.410 --> 00:23:16.430
the waterfront. He'll say anything for a buck,

00:23:16.430 --> 00:23:18.549
you know, so you couldn't really use their testimony

00:23:18.549 --> 00:23:22.750
in court. So in that era, you become a snitch.

00:23:23.029 --> 00:23:26.250
It's a fast way. Right? Yeah. Yeah. If you're

00:23:26.250 --> 00:23:28.470
hanging out at the waterfront and you turn them

00:23:28.470 --> 00:23:30.990
in, that would be a problem. Yeah. So Perry's

00:23:30.990 --> 00:23:37.289
solution was to dress up. as a hobo, and he not

00:23:37.289 --> 00:23:40.769
only was probably the first federal law enforcement

00:23:40.769 --> 00:23:43.730
agent to go undercover, he also was a method

00:23:43.730 --> 00:23:47.269
actor. To a certain extent. You know what, as

00:23:47.269 --> 00:23:49.789
well, anybody who's good at undercover work,

00:23:49.910 --> 00:23:52.289
to some extent, is a method actor. He was. Yeah.

00:23:52.349 --> 00:23:54.410
So he took out a whole persona, came up with

00:23:54.410 --> 00:23:59.869
a new name, went by Dopey, and he would put on

00:23:59.869 --> 00:24:02.769
the most raggedy sweater. He'd button it wrong.

00:24:03.069 --> 00:24:07.329
like he buttoned it up drunk on this little sweater.

00:24:07.569 --> 00:24:10.130
He had a beat up fedora with cigarette burns

00:24:10.130 --> 00:24:13.049
in it, crushed in on one side. He wouldn't shave

00:24:13.049 --> 00:24:16.309
for a couple of days. And just to make the costume

00:24:16.309 --> 00:24:20.849
perfect, he would pour some whiskey or rum on

00:24:20.849 --> 00:24:22.930
his sweater. So he smelled like a drunk, even

00:24:22.930 --> 00:24:24.930
though he wasn't drinking. He'd hang around the

00:24:24.930 --> 00:24:29.430
waterfront and inevitably he would get picked.

00:24:29.710 --> 00:24:34.690
to help unload illegal wildlife, and he'd be

00:24:34.690 --> 00:24:37.849
paid a dollar or two. In fact, he commented several

00:24:37.849 --> 00:24:39.930
times the gangster said, thanks Dopey, we'll

00:24:39.930 --> 00:24:43.569
see you tomorrow with more to unload. And then

00:24:43.569 --> 00:24:48.210
he'd show up a couple days later, had the crispest

00:24:48.210 --> 00:24:51.630
uniform I've ever seen, clean shaven, didn't

00:24:51.630 --> 00:24:55.180
look anything like Dopey the hobo looked totally

00:24:55.180 --> 00:24:58.460
different and arrest them. And he said the gangsters

00:24:58.460 --> 00:25:00.720
never caught on. This was the same person. He

00:25:00.720 --> 00:25:04.079
would, he called it the old drunk trick. Um,

00:25:04.079 --> 00:25:08.220
and he had really, uh, great success and was

00:25:08.220 --> 00:25:11.839
never, uh, injured seriously, uh, during this

00:25:11.839 --> 00:25:14.960
period. And it really helped break up those rings

00:25:14.960 --> 00:25:17.099
to a certain extent, at least the ones who was

00:25:17.099 --> 00:25:20.619
able to arrest. Um, and it was a great innovation

00:25:20.619 --> 00:25:22.809
and something we still do today. with our special

00:25:22.809 --> 00:25:27.269
agents infiltrate groups. It's dangerous, right?

00:25:27.269 --> 00:25:30.490
If you ever get caught and so on, but he really

00:25:30.490 --> 00:25:31.950
kicked it off. And once again, it was something

00:25:31.950 --> 00:25:34.490
new. Nobody was suggesting you do that, but he

00:25:34.490 --> 00:25:37.470
was highly effective at it. And we have images.

00:25:37.509 --> 00:25:40.190
I can share them later for your website, Ed.

00:25:40.250 --> 00:25:43.609
But when you juxtapose how he looked as a hobo.

00:25:44.339 --> 00:25:47.380
to how he looked as the most spit -and -polish

00:25:47.380 --> 00:25:49.579
wildlife law enforcement agent you're ever gonna

00:25:49.579 --> 00:25:51.599
see. Yeah, you wouldn't recognize him, right?

00:25:51.599 --> 00:25:53.839
It was dark. Here's this guy with a fedora. He

00:25:53.839 --> 00:25:56.920
smells of whiskey. Just like everybody else,

00:25:56.920 --> 00:25:58.920
I'm loading the trucks and then somebody else

00:25:58.920 --> 00:26:02.180
comes by the next day and catches you in the

00:26:02.180 --> 00:26:05.980
act. And so John Perry was a real innovator.

00:26:07.019 --> 00:26:09.039
And I don't know if you've had anybody tell the

00:26:09.039 --> 00:26:12.619
story, but I think the other great undercover

00:26:15.059 --> 00:26:18.220
triumph where we probably were the first was

00:26:18.220 --> 00:26:20.119
when we had an agent dress up like a gorilla.

00:26:20.740 --> 00:26:24.660
Oh, we have not told that story on the podcast.

00:26:24.660 --> 00:26:26.779
I'll hold that off for somebody else or a later

00:26:26.779 --> 00:26:30.740
date. It's coming. We may need your help on that

00:26:30.740 --> 00:26:33.920
one. We've had a couple innovative attempts.

00:26:34.079 --> 00:26:36.859
It just shows, you know, people like going wildlife

00:26:36.859 --> 00:26:42.240
law enforcement. It isn't the most traditional

00:26:42.430 --> 00:26:46.130
law enforcement pathway and i think we tend to

00:26:46.130 --> 00:26:49.190
get individuals yes come into it because they

00:26:49.190 --> 00:26:52.009
like the environment or because they like the

00:26:52.009 --> 00:26:57.369
the. Add to say it. The creativity involved in

00:26:57.369 --> 00:27:01.910
it and so we do get a lot of innovations you

00:27:01.910 --> 00:27:04.589
know we want for sure. I think what i've noticed

00:27:04.589 --> 00:27:07.170
at least the people i worked with and it looks

00:27:07.170 --> 00:27:10.630
it appears to me to be true historically as well

00:27:10.630 --> 00:27:15.440
is. The best agents and where are cops for they

00:27:15.440 --> 00:27:19.019
think like cops but they are absolutely dedicated

00:27:19.019 --> 00:27:21.720
to the mission of the service to protect wildlife

00:27:21.720 --> 00:27:25.359
so yeah they think and they work like like cops

00:27:25.359 --> 00:27:27.859
are not biologists were carrying a gun they are

00:27:27.859 --> 00:27:31.900
cops but right they. They love the mission and

00:27:31.900 --> 00:27:34.279
they're dedicated to the mission so they. They

00:27:34.279 --> 00:27:36.680
like work incredible hours. They think outside

00:27:36.680 --> 00:27:39.500
the box. And one of the things that just fascinates

00:27:39.500 --> 00:27:44.420
me about John Dopey Perry is unlike current special

00:27:44.420 --> 00:27:47.119
agents, which, you know, in day to day work are

00:27:47.119 --> 00:27:49.420
plain clothes. They're like FBI agents, you know,

00:27:49.500 --> 00:27:52.359
make worse tie one day or jeans and a t -shirt

00:27:52.359 --> 00:27:56.240
the next. But armed, you know, carry handcuffs.

00:27:56.420 --> 00:27:58.279
Firearms can arrest people, but they're plain

00:27:58.279 --> 00:28:01.839
clothes officers. Right back then. John Perry

00:28:01.839 --> 00:28:04.359
during his day -to -day activities was a uniformed

00:28:04.359 --> 00:28:07.480
officer. Yeah. Yeah. Uniform and a gun belt and

00:28:07.480 --> 00:28:09.519
a hat and a badge on his chest. Everybody who

00:28:09.519 --> 00:28:11.019
saw him out in public would have known, okay,

00:28:11.019 --> 00:28:13.500
that's a law enforcement officer. But one of

00:28:13.500 --> 00:28:15.720
the things I really love about him is, and you've

00:28:15.720 --> 00:28:17.680
mentioned this before, and I've never found anything

00:28:17.680 --> 00:28:20.839
that contradicts it. I believe John Perry was

00:28:20.839 --> 00:28:23.519
the very first federal law enforcement officer

00:28:23.519 --> 00:28:26.059
to do undercover work. It just wasn't done by

00:28:26.059 --> 00:28:29.339
the feds prior to that. And to think, you know,

00:28:29.339 --> 00:28:33.130
you've got Now you have FBI, US Marshals, DEA,

00:28:33.390 --> 00:28:36.869
HSI, ATF, all these, you know, alphabet agencies

00:28:36.869 --> 00:28:39.509
with all these incredible histories of doing

00:28:39.509 --> 00:28:41.970
undercover work. And yet the first guy to do

00:28:41.970 --> 00:28:44.910
undercover work was a wildlife fed who was looking

00:28:44.910 --> 00:28:47.349
at duck poaching out of the Midwest. Awesome.

00:28:47.529 --> 00:28:50.109
Yeah. Who even knew about duckleggers? Right.

00:28:50.250 --> 00:28:54.250
All the all the all the glory goes to the untouchables

00:28:54.250 --> 00:28:56.990
and Elliott Ness. And, you know, they made their

00:28:56.990 --> 00:29:00.359
case through tax evasion. Exactly. Much more

00:29:00.359 --> 00:29:04.640
exciting story. Totally. And yet, John Perry

00:29:04.640 --> 00:29:06.920
was running around Chicago at the same time,

00:29:07.119 --> 00:29:10.440
Elliot Ness, all the other famous, you know,

00:29:10.660 --> 00:29:14.099
G men of the era were chasing down John Dillinger

00:29:14.099 --> 00:29:16.720
and Al Capone. they were all in their contemporaries

00:29:16.720 --> 00:29:19.720
at the same time, which is just mind boggling

00:29:19.720 --> 00:29:22.759
to think about. It is mind boggling. We had one

00:29:22.759 --> 00:29:26.299
of his colleagues, Ken Rowan, who worked the

00:29:26.299 --> 00:29:28.819
same time in the 1920s. Once again, I told you,

00:29:28.819 --> 00:29:31.500
Illinois is tough. Rowan never went undercover,

00:29:31.500 --> 00:29:34.339
but on at least three occasions, he stumbled

00:29:34.339 --> 00:29:39.859
upon illegal stills in the woods where Capone's

00:29:39.859 --> 00:29:42.700
gang was brewing up hooch. Basically, if they

00:29:42.700 --> 00:29:45.609
didn't smuggle it in, they made their own. And

00:29:45.609 --> 00:29:48.269
he was looking for poachers, but the same place

00:29:48.269 --> 00:29:49.930
a poacher would be, in the middle of nowhere,

00:29:50.049 --> 00:29:52.910
off a dirt road, these stills were. And he was

00:29:52.910 --> 00:29:58.190
constantly having to have these terrible gunfights

00:29:58.190 --> 00:30:01.210
where he was outgunned and shot three times.

00:30:01.670 --> 00:30:04.609
And it was just a rough, rough area. And just

00:30:04.609 --> 00:30:07.329
like Elliot Ness. I mean, they were going at

00:30:07.329 --> 00:30:10.869
these gangs in different ways to shut them down

00:30:10.869 --> 00:30:14.150
and developing new techniques to do it. It's

00:30:14.150 --> 00:30:17.089
really the people's stories are important and

00:30:17.089 --> 00:30:20.549
they were a tough breed. It also makes me thank

00:30:20.549 --> 00:30:24.430
heavens we have the Federal Law Enforcement Training

00:30:24.430 --> 00:30:31.089
Center, FLETC now, that it's become a much safer

00:30:31.089 --> 00:30:33.849
profession because there's real training back

00:30:33.849 --> 00:30:37.460
then. With John Perry and Ken Rowan, these old

00:30:37.460 --> 00:30:39.920
timers, it was kind of you hung out with another

00:30:39.920 --> 00:30:41.940
law enforcement agent. You were given a book

00:30:41.940 --> 00:30:45.000
of regulations and kind of sent out there to

00:30:45.000 --> 00:30:46.740
do your job, and you kind of made it up as you

00:30:46.740 --> 00:30:50.579
went along. Now our training is superb, best

00:30:50.579 --> 00:30:55.099
in the world, and it's made the job safer. I

00:30:55.099 --> 00:30:56.759
agree. Back then, you probably had to supply

00:30:56.759 --> 00:31:00.000
your own pistol. Some of them did because they

00:31:00.000 --> 00:31:02.759
didn't like the... In fact, you hear them all

00:31:02.759 --> 00:31:06.799
excited about getting the newest colt and so

00:31:06.799 --> 00:31:09.440
on and sometimes they buy their own and sometimes

00:31:09.440 --> 00:31:12.279
they buy their own uniform components. It was

00:31:12.279 --> 00:31:17.079
rough. What was the name of the other officer

00:31:17.079 --> 00:31:20.200
you mentioned? Ken Rowan. Ken Rowan. He stumbling

00:31:20.200 --> 00:31:22.980
across stills. That sort of thing happens to

00:31:22.980 --> 00:31:25.039
US Fish and Wildlife Service agents today. We're

00:31:25.039 --> 00:31:27.319
investigating a wildlife crime and we come across

00:31:27.799 --> 00:31:30.759
drug trafficking or human trafficking or you

00:31:30.759 --> 00:31:33.460
know some state violation that's another crime

00:31:33.460 --> 00:31:37.440
and happens all the time. You know one of the

00:31:37.440 --> 00:31:39.900
fun thing about Ken Rowan just to show how dangerous

00:31:39.900 --> 00:31:41.880
this was that what he and John Perry were doing

00:31:41.880 --> 00:31:45.380
he was not only shot a number of times but at

00:31:45.380 --> 00:31:48.640
one point his his federal vehicle was dynamited.

00:31:49.299 --> 00:31:53.160
What? Yeah these guys were the gangsters were

00:31:53.160 --> 00:31:58.589
serious rotten people. Eventually, he was moved

00:31:58.589 --> 00:32:05.789
to Montana for safety. He went to judges who

00:32:05.789 --> 00:32:09.109
sometimes were in cahoots with the Capone gang,

00:32:09.210 --> 00:32:13.470
couldn't get his cases tried. Then when his car

00:32:13.470 --> 00:32:15.609
was dynamited, that was kind of the last straw

00:32:15.609 --> 00:32:19.430
for him. It's time to move on. The agency agreed.

00:32:19.569 --> 00:32:21.779
It's like, all right. Ken time to move you out

00:32:21.779 --> 00:32:24.339
to montana which was a little quieter back then

00:32:24.339 --> 00:32:26.440
yeah that's taking things to a new level we may

00:32:26.440 --> 00:32:29.440
have to do a whole episode on ken the character

00:32:29.440 --> 00:32:31.500
i never heard quite a character he was quite

00:32:31.500 --> 00:32:34.039
a character i've never heard of him to be honest

00:32:34.039 --> 00:32:36.119
with you that's interesting these are some of

00:32:36.119 --> 00:32:38.799
the stories we have in the archives i love to

00:32:38.799 --> 00:32:41.500
bring it to life yeah i love it you also mentioned

00:32:41.500 --> 00:32:44.519
that uh one of dopey's experiences john perry's

00:32:44.519 --> 00:32:47.309
was that He would go undercover and then later

00:32:47.309 --> 00:32:50.890
return in uniform fully shaved and the bad guys

00:32:50.890 --> 00:32:53.970
wouldn't even know it was the same person. I

00:32:53.970 --> 00:32:57.390
had that experience. In one of my cases, I infiltrated

00:32:57.390 --> 00:32:59.509
a group of people, hung out with them for 14

00:32:59.509 --> 00:33:03.750
months. And when it came time, and I also didn't

00:33:03.750 --> 00:33:05.670
shave out a big mustache bigger than the one

00:33:05.670 --> 00:33:08.250
I have right now. I didn't shower very often.

00:33:08.470 --> 00:33:11.269
I kind of purposely made myself look dirty. I

00:33:11.269 --> 00:33:13.549
rubbed the dirt on my hands and face when I would.

00:33:13.690 --> 00:33:16.789
Adam so look like i was in a blue collar worker.

00:33:17.769 --> 00:33:20.190
Fourteen months later came time to arrest everybody

00:33:20.190 --> 00:33:22.450
we didn't have enough agents to handle it all

00:33:22.450 --> 00:33:26.490
so i had to gear up and. Participate in the arrest

00:33:26.490 --> 00:33:30.069
and so. Now i'm clean shaven i'm showered and

00:33:30.069 --> 00:33:32.410
i'm wearing our body armor and our raid gear

00:33:32.410 --> 00:33:34.490
with that we wear when we go out and do arrest

00:33:34.490 --> 00:33:37.670
and i actually personally arrested one of the

00:33:37.670 --> 00:33:40.769
guys i had hung out with every weekend for fourteen

00:33:40.769 --> 00:33:49.680
months i never knew is me. It kind of was mind

00:33:49.680 --> 00:33:52.460
boggling to me. I'm like, I didn't tell him it

00:33:52.460 --> 00:33:56.079
was me, but I, I, I, here I am physically putting

00:33:56.079 --> 00:33:59.000
the handcuffs on him, giving him commands. No

00:33:59.000 --> 00:34:01.720
clue. No clue. It was me. It was unbelievable.

00:34:02.319 --> 00:34:08.320
Yeah. I don't know. I just love that connection

00:34:08.320 --> 00:34:10.760
between the past and the present, even though,

00:34:10.760 --> 00:34:14.039
you know, the work. the animals, the people they

00:34:14.039 --> 00:34:15.960
were dealing with, the technology they had to

00:34:15.960 --> 00:34:18.800
work with was so different. Yet, if you could

00:34:18.800 --> 00:34:21.639
sit down, if I could sit down at a bar or a restaurant

00:34:21.639 --> 00:34:25.340
with John Perry today, I'm sure we would see

00:34:25.340 --> 00:34:27.500
everything in common, you know? It's just astonishing.

00:34:28.340 --> 00:34:30.960
Yeah. Share stories. Share stories. I would love

00:34:30.960 --> 00:34:33.320
to do that. I'll tell you. There's another guy

00:34:33.320 --> 00:34:36.460
you mentioned to me that you have kind of a fondness

00:34:36.460 --> 00:34:38.599
for, and that was Ray Holland. But I don't know

00:34:38.599 --> 00:34:40.500
anything about Ray Holland. What can you tell

00:34:40.500 --> 00:34:43.019
us about him? Ray Holland is something somebody

00:34:43.019 --> 00:34:46.719
we should all know and he gave his name to one

00:34:46.719 --> 00:34:49.380
of the most important Supreme Court cases ever

00:34:49.380 --> 00:34:51.860
which is something we don't normally get to do

00:34:51.860 --> 00:34:55.360
in wildlife law. Let me tell you about Ray because

00:34:55.360 --> 00:35:00.420
it's a great story and Ray was born in the Midwest.

00:35:00.809 --> 00:35:05.429
bright young man, published nature stories as

00:35:05.429 --> 00:35:11.650
a teenager under the fake name Bob White, which

00:35:11.650 --> 00:35:14.530
only a biologist would come up with. So he loved

00:35:14.530 --> 00:35:17.469
birds, loved the outdoors. He was so bright,

00:35:17.849 --> 00:35:20.909
his parents sent him to New Jersey to go to Princeton,

00:35:21.289 --> 00:35:24.610
but he missed the Midwest birds and the Mississippi

00:35:24.610 --> 00:35:28.289
River and the wetlands there. So he came back

00:35:28.289 --> 00:35:32.000
and was a freelance Nature writer wrote about

00:35:32.000 --> 00:35:34.960
how birds migrate wrote kind of like stuff David

00:35:34.960 --> 00:35:39.780
Attenborough might do in a documentary And then

00:35:39.780 --> 00:35:42.239
Wait, wait, wait, what what era are we talking

00:35:42.239 --> 00:35:45.039
about? What time frame we're talking about early

00:35:45.039 --> 00:35:50.559
1900s 1910 right before World War one even before

00:35:50.559 --> 00:35:53.219
John Perry then before John Perry Yeah, so this

00:35:53.219 --> 00:35:55.360
is shortly after the Lacey act, but he's he's

00:35:55.360 --> 00:36:00.550
a writer and then in 1916 well A couple years

00:36:00.550 --> 00:36:04.469
before that, we passed the first bird protection

00:36:04.469 --> 00:36:08.170
act called the Weeks McLean Act. And that's passed

00:36:08.170 --> 00:36:10.610
around, I think 1914, if I recall correctly.

00:36:11.889 --> 00:36:16.030
And it's the first attempt to outlaw spring hunting

00:36:16.030 --> 00:36:20.289
of birds. And spring hunting makes no sense because

00:36:20.289 --> 00:36:23.650
you're killing birds before they have more chicks

00:36:23.650 --> 00:36:27.860
and more birds. It's a poor way to invest in

00:36:27.860 --> 00:36:31.800
your hunting future. It's also while they're

00:36:31.800 --> 00:36:34.420
trying to nest, right? Right. It's the worst

00:36:34.420 --> 00:36:37.320
time. You're never going to decimate them and

00:36:37.320 --> 00:36:40.579
that's what happened. This law is passed in Congress,

00:36:41.059 --> 00:36:45.079
but it's difficult to enforce. a number of states

00:36:45.079 --> 00:36:48.000
rebel against it, and it literally dies in the

00:36:48.000 --> 00:36:50.219
Supreme Court. It moves up to the Supreme Court,

00:36:50.380 --> 00:36:52.880
and for some reason, the Supreme Court had a

00:36:52.880 --> 00:36:54.800
death up there, and the case is just never heard.

00:36:55.340 --> 00:36:58.300
It's just gone. So the biological survey, the

00:36:58.300 --> 00:36:59.880
law enforcement division says, well, what are

00:36:59.880 --> 00:37:01.760
we going to do? We passed this law, but nobody

00:37:01.760 --> 00:37:04.300
really, the states wouldn't enforce it with us,

00:37:04.320 --> 00:37:06.860
and we don't have many agents. And they come

00:37:06.860 --> 00:37:09.670
up here's another innovation. They say, well,

00:37:09.710 --> 00:37:15.590
the states, sometimes they are slow to accept

00:37:15.590 --> 00:37:17.710
new laws, especially ones that actually make

00:37:17.710 --> 00:37:20.710
migratory birds a federal resource as opposed

00:37:20.710 --> 00:37:24.389
to a state resource. But they would have a harder

00:37:24.389 --> 00:37:27.949
time ignoring a treaty. international treaty.

00:37:28.409 --> 00:37:30.530
Why don't we pass a treaty? This all comes out

00:37:30.530 --> 00:37:32.510
of the biological survey. We're a little agency

00:37:32.510 --> 00:37:35.829
whose job is really to study birds and protect

00:37:35.829 --> 00:37:37.809
birds. We have a couple of wildlife refuges,

00:37:37.829 --> 00:37:41.889
but we come up with this idea. President Wilson

00:37:41.889 --> 00:37:45.650
at the time says, okay, even though by this point

00:37:45.650 --> 00:37:47.849
we're in the middle of World War I, there's things

00:37:47.849 --> 00:37:51.809
going on in Europe. In 1916, they say, well,

00:37:51.809 --> 00:37:55.650
why don't we sign a treaty with Canada? to try

00:37:55.650 --> 00:37:58.530
to protect birds that migrate across international

00:37:58.530 --> 00:38:00.929
borders. Canada makes more sense. It has the

00:38:00.929 --> 00:38:03.550
biggest border with us. A lot of birds spend

00:38:03.550 --> 00:38:07.250
their summers in Canada and then come south for

00:38:07.250 --> 00:38:10.550
the winter. So, and to give you a sense of how

00:38:10.550 --> 00:38:14.010
far back this is, when the treaty actually is

00:38:14.010 --> 00:38:17.900
signed, it's... signed by King George V of England.

00:38:18.099 --> 00:38:21.960
Of course. Canada is still a dominion of England.

00:38:22.480 --> 00:38:25.860
And England's in the middle of World War I. First

00:38:25.860 --> 00:38:27.559
World War. They got a lot of other things on

00:38:27.559 --> 00:38:29.619
their mind, but they think this is important.

00:38:29.800 --> 00:38:32.300
They sign it. President Wilson signs it. And

00:38:32.300 --> 00:38:34.659
we have a treaty. It's like, great. This treaty

00:38:34.659 --> 00:38:39.960
signed in 1916. Unfortunately, before they can

00:38:39.960 --> 00:38:42.980
pass enabling legislation. So even when we sign

00:38:42.980 --> 00:38:45.599
treaties, then we have to pass legislation, how

00:38:45.599 --> 00:38:47.639
we're going to enforce it, we get into World

00:38:47.639 --> 00:38:50.539
War I. It's really busy. We're fighting a world

00:38:50.539 --> 00:38:54.639
war. We've got boys overseas. It's a tough time.

00:38:55.300 --> 00:38:59.159
So two years later in 1980, 18, the Migratory

00:38:59.159 --> 00:39:01.639
Bird Treaty Act is passed. And that really transforms

00:39:01.639 --> 00:39:04.980
our agency. Prior to that, we'd had these Lacey

00:39:04.980 --> 00:39:07.079
agents, but there weren't very many of them.

00:39:07.119 --> 00:39:10.460
Right. And when the Migratory Bird Treaty Act

00:39:10.460 --> 00:39:13.949
is passed, the agencies like, well, we have to

00:39:13.949 --> 00:39:17.269
hire some new agents to enforce it. Piratory

00:39:17.269 --> 00:39:19.389
bird treaty agents is what some of them are called

00:39:19.389 --> 00:39:22.730
initially on informally duck cops and informally

00:39:22.730 --> 00:39:24.989
game protectors and so on. But we don't have

00:39:24.989 --> 00:39:28.309
anybody to enforce this. It's in the middle of

00:39:28.309 --> 00:39:30.789
World War One. It's really hard. And so they

00:39:30.789 --> 00:39:33.730
start looking around and the chief of our law

00:39:33.730 --> 00:39:36.130
enforcement remembers this guy who writes all

00:39:36.130 --> 00:39:38.809
these articles about birds. named Ray Holland

00:39:38.809 --> 00:39:41.110
says, well, he'd be a pretty good law enforcement

00:39:41.110 --> 00:39:43.429
agent. He knows a lot about birds. He knows the

00:39:43.429 --> 00:39:46.510
flyways. He knows the Midwest. And by the way,

00:39:46.550 --> 00:39:51.769
I need an agent to cover seven states. So this

00:39:51.769 --> 00:39:54.190
guy's all over the place writing about Illinois

00:39:54.190 --> 00:39:58.570
to Missouri to Kansas to Iowa. So he offers them

00:39:58.570 --> 00:40:04.369
a job. Okay. in these early years. And Ray Holland

00:40:04.369 --> 00:40:11.750
comes to work for us in the teens. And when the

00:40:11.750 --> 00:40:15.630
Migratory Bird Treaty Act is passed, Holland's

00:40:15.630 --> 00:40:20.389
ready to really jump in. He says, it's great.

00:40:21.449 --> 00:40:24.250
Now that the act is passed, he can hunt ducks.

00:40:24.269 --> 00:40:27.730
He's an avid duck hunter in the fall, and he

00:40:27.730 --> 00:40:30.139
can hunt poachers in the spring. That's what

00:40:30.139 --> 00:40:32.900
I'm going to do as a law enforcement agent. Perfect.

00:40:32.900 --> 00:40:37.199
Perfect. The act is passed and guess what? The

00:40:37.199 --> 00:40:39.219
states aren't any happier with the migratory

00:40:39.219 --> 00:40:41.079
bird treaty act than they were with the earlier

00:40:41.079 --> 00:40:45.619
act. They're like, no, this is overreach. In

00:40:45.619 --> 00:40:49.380
particular, Missouri is really upset about a

00:40:49.380 --> 00:40:51.699
lot of ducks, a lot of private hunting clubs

00:40:51.699 --> 00:40:55.019
in Missouri. They say the congressional arm cannot

00:40:55.019 --> 00:40:58.630
reach as far as Missouri. it's going to force

00:40:58.630 --> 00:41:10.019
this hated law. relationship between the federal

00:41:10.019 --> 00:41:12.059
government and the state governments in terms

00:41:12.059 --> 00:41:15.579
of who's got the power and who, yeah, this goes

00:41:15.579 --> 00:41:17.519
back on a lot of issues, but this is interesting.

00:41:17.679 --> 00:41:20.579
Okay, so the states are bulking. So the states

00:41:20.579 --> 00:41:23.199
are bulking nowhere more so than Missouri with

00:41:23.199 --> 00:41:26.400
these sportsman's clubs and the attorney general

00:41:26.400 --> 00:41:28.199
down there, a fellow named Frank McAllister,

00:41:28.300 --> 00:41:31.360
is the most vociferous because he's going to

00:41:31.360 --> 00:41:33.320
run for governor. And he says, you know what

00:41:33.320 --> 00:41:35.380
would be a good issue? I got more duck hunters

00:41:35.380 --> 00:41:38.219
than I do federal law enforcement agents. So

00:41:38.219 --> 00:41:41.219
I'm going to run on not enforcing this law. And

00:41:41.219 --> 00:41:43.099
even tells the sportsman, if you go out and shoot

00:41:43.099 --> 00:41:45.760
ducks in the spring, don't worry, we won't prosecute

00:41:45.760 --> 00:41:48.280
you. We'll even defend you if the federal government

00:41:48.280 --> 00:41:54.280
comes after you. So Ray Holland knows that this

00:41:54.280 --> 00:41:56.019
law is important. He really wants to get rid

00:41:56.019 --> 00:41:57.559
of spring hunting. Remember, he wrote all these

00:41:57.559 --> 00:42:00.289
articles about how migratory waterfall breed

00:42:00.289 --> 00:42:03.409
and feed and the importance of letting them alone

00:42:03.409 --> 00:42:07.070
in the spring and he decides he's going to go

00:42:07.070 --> 00:42:09.510
after this attorney general because the attorney

00:42:09.510 --> 00:42:11.650
general is not only saying he's not going to

00:42:11.650 --> 00:42:14.030
enforce the law but he says come out with me

00:42:14.030 --> 00:42:15.949
and i'm going to go shoot a bunch of ducks in

00:42:15.949 --> 00:42:18.550
the spring and let's see them come and get me

00:42:18.550 --> 00:42:22.409
and holland purposely says I need a big case

00:42:22.409 --> 00:42:25.349
to let people know because his job just like

00:42:25.349 --> 00:42:29.710
today with law enforcement is split between education

00:42:29.710 --> 00:42:33.429
and enforcement. So during the hunting season

00:42:33.429 --> 00:42:36.130
he goes to every sportsman's club he can and

00:42:36.130 --> 00:42:37.989
explains about these new laws because they are

00:42:37.989 --> 00:42:40.070
new and he explains why they're important. You'll

00:42:40.070 --> 00:42:41.929
have more ducks in the fall if you don't shoot

00:42:41.929 --> 00:42:47.090
them in the spring. So he needs a big case. to

00:42:47.090 --> 00:42:49.690
educate people about this new law and for them

00:42:49.690 --> 00:42:54.769
to take it seriously. So he learns that McAllister

00:42:54.769 --> 00:42:58.369
belongs to a small private club, only 25 people,

00:42:58.730 --> 00:43:02.449
the oldest club sportsman's duck hunting club

00:43:02.449 --> 00:43:07.309
west of the Mississippi. And he goes out there

00:43:07.309 --> 00:43:08.690
a lot and that's probably where he's going to

00:43:08.690 --> 00:43:12.659
go to illegally hunt. birds in the spring, like

00:43:12.659 --> 00:43:14.780
he's told the newspapers he was going to do.

00:43:14.780 --> 00:43:18.980
Oh, boy. So McAllister goes down to Missouri

00:43:18.980 --> 00:43:23.699
near the sports hunting club, determined to catch

00:43:23.699 --> 00:43:26.300
him. Oh, Holland does. Holland goes. Holland

00:43:26.300 --> 00:43:29.099
does. Yeah. Yeah. OK. Holland goes down there

00:43:29.099 --> 00:43:30.960
and he's going to catch him and make a big case

00:43:30.960 --> 00:43:34.019
and then get it tested in the courts. But there's

00:43:34.019 --> 00:43:38.619
a problem. The it's a private club with 25 members.

00:43:38.980 --> 00:43:43.079
Right. How does he get on it? Right. And he audaciously

00:43:43.079 --> 00:43:47.760
takes a cab from the train station. It says,

00:43:47.760 --> 00:43:50.679
uh, take me to the sportsman's club. And the

00:43:50.679 --> 00:43:53.699
guy says, uh, you know, you know, it's a private

00:43:53.699 --> 00:43:55.539
club with Gates and all that. He goes, Oh yeah.

00:43:55.639 --> 00:43:59.179
No, I'm one of them. I remember here. And, uh,

00:43:59.179 --> 00:44:01.559
the guy says, well, you don't have any, any guns

00:44:01.559 --> 00:44:06.239
to hunt with. He tells the cab driver, oh, no,

00:44:06.380 --> 00:44:09.199
McAllister took all the firearms out there. And

00:44:09.199 --> 00:44:11.900
the cabby tells him, yeah, when they went out

00:44:11.900 --> 00:44:15.119
the other day, they had a big enough armory for

00:44:15.119 --> 00:44:17.679
the whole state of Missouri. Beautiful. So he

00:44:17.679 --> 00:44:19.500
knows they're going to go hunting. So he goes

00:44:19.500 --> 00:44:22.960
out there early in the morning. The hunt club,

00:44:22.980 --> 00:44:25.639
the lodge is empty. They're all out in a blind

00:44:25.639 --> 00:44:29.559
shooting birds illegally. And he and another

00:44:29.559 --> 00:44:34.869
agent go out and arrest them. And then they have

00:44:34.869 --> 00:44:37.570
tons of birds. There's about 50 illegally hunted

00:44:37.570 --> 00:44:39.889
birds back at the lodge, probably from the previous

00:44:39.889 --> 00:44:42.909
day. And then there's a bunch more. He watches

00:44:42.909 --> 00:44:45.309
them for a while, sees how many take out, and

00:44:45.309 --> 00:44:48.489
it's like, that's enough. We've got a case. Really,

00:44:48.489 --> 00:44:51.110
they only had to shoot one basically, but he

00:44:51.110 --> 00:44:54.590
wanted a strong case. Yeah. Show the egregious

00:44:54.590 --> 00:44:57.650
behavior, right? Yeah. And it just gets worse.

00:44:58.329 --> 00:45:04.800
These are bad. bad hombres. So he takes him back

00:45:04.800 --> 00:45:06.320
to the lodge and says, you know, you're under

00:45:06.320 --> 00:45:09.500
arrest. There's this migratory bird, you know,

00:45:09.619 --> 00:45:12.059
treaty act, which assuming you're the attorney

00:45:12.059 --> 00:45:15.099
general of Missouri, you know about you, you've

00:45:15.099 --> 00:45:21.380
spoken about it. And the attorney general goes

00:45:21.380 --> 00:45:24.199
ballistic. You can't arrest the attorney general.

00:45:24.460 --> 00:45:26.360
I'm the chief law enforcement official of the

00:45:26.360 --> 00:45:29.880
state of Missouri and, you know, this is never

00:45:29.880 --> 00:45:34.679
going to stick and you're out of luck. The people

00:45:34.679 --> 00:45:38.579
he's with, the other Hunt Club members, they're

00:45:38.579 --> 00:45:41.849
a little less vociferous. They start offering

00:45:41.849 --> 00:45:45.650
Ray Holland jobs. Oh yeah. The life insurance

00:45:45.650 --> 00:45:48.250
company that one of them owns. Well, maybe you

00:45:48.250 --> 00:45:50.190
could come work here as an investigator. We pay

00:45:50.190 --> 00:45:52.650
really well. Another guy tries to bribe them,

00:45:52.650 --> 00:45:55.449
but he doesn't have any witnesses. So he just

00:45:55.449 --> 00:45:57.309
drops all. He says, well, I'm taking it to the

00:45:57.309 --> 00:46:00.030
judge. Uh, the first judge he goes to, McAllister

00:46:00.030 --> 00:46:02.269
goes right up to him and says, Hey judge, how

00:46:02.269 --> 00:46:04.309
you doing? They know each other, but the judge

00:46:04.309 --> 00:46:07.690
doesn't care. Judges sick of McAllister, floating

00:46:07.690 --> 00:46:10.320
the law and says, Hey, you know, you guys. you

00:46:10.320 --> 00:46:12.239
committed a crime, you're going to be charged

00:46:12.239 --> 00:46:16.159
with this. And of course, McAllister defends

00:46:16.159 --> 00:46:19.260
himself and starts fighting it through the courts.

00:46:19.460 --> 00:46:21.860
And then both McAllister and Holland know it's

00:46:21.860 --> 00:46:23.659
going to go to the Supreme Court because it's

00:46:23.659 --> 00:46:25.940
a big decision. It's going to keep being appealed.

00:46:26.179 --> 00:46:29.440
And it does. It takes a while. So the law is

00:46:29.440 --> 00:46:33.579
passed in 1918 in the summer. Of course, McAllister

00:46:33.579 --> 00:46:35.659
didn't waste any time in the spring of 1919.

00:46:35.760 --> 00:46:37.800
As soon as he could violate the law, he went

00:46:37.800 --> 00:46:41.789
out there and shot probably 100 plus waterfall,

00:46:42.050 --> 00:46:47.570
half of which were put in a cold storage unit.

00:46:47.929 --> 00:46:50.510
And then McAllister managed to get those removed

00:46:50.510 --> 00:46:53.989
and given to a mental asylum in Eden. So that

00:46:53.989 --> 00:46:57.690
evidence was gone, but Holland had kept the other

00:46:57.690 --> 00:47:00.750
evidence and goes all the way up to the Supreme

00:47:00.750 --> 00:47:03.550
Court. Big deal. So we have a Supreme Court called

00:47:03.550 --> 00:47:06.550
Missouri versus Holland, which on the face of

00:47:06.550 --> 00:47:09.139
it looks like it's the state of Missouri taking

00:47:09.139 --> 00:47:12.139
on a European nation. But it's not. It's Ray

00:47:12.139 --> 00:47:14.400
Holland. It's Ray Holland. Ray Holland, this

00:47:14.400 --> 00:47:17.699
poor wildlife, federal wildlife officer who's

00:47:17.699 --> 00:47:21.380
the first to kind of go after enforcing the migratory.

00:47:21.380 --> 00:47:24.980
After a big. Yeah. Ends up with his name on it.

00:47:24.980 --> 00:47:28.380
U .S. Supreme Court case. I love it. Goes all

00:47:28.380 --> 00:47:32.219
the way up to the Supreme Court. By 1920, you

00:47:32.219 --> 00:47:35.420
know, wends its way through the courts. By then,

00:47:35.579 --> 00:47:40.329
Holland has actually left our agency. Holland

00:47:40.329 --> 00:47:43.849
has a growing family. Law enforcement agents

00:47:43.849 --> 00:47:45.949
aren't paid particularly well. He's having a

00:47:45.949 --> 00:47:48.409
hard time supporting himself, and he takes his

00:47:48.409 --> 00:47:50.849
job so seriously he doesn't have time to write

00:47:50.849 --> 00:47:53.530
articles anymore, which was an important source

00:47:53.530 --> 00:47:57.389
of income for him. So he's given the job, this

00:47:57.389 --> 00:48:01.829
is a real job, not a bribe job, of being editor.

00:48:02.219 --> 00:48:06.659
of the newsletter for the American Game Propagation

00:48:06.659 --> 00:48:09.019
Association, that's a wildlife agency trying

00:48:09.019 --> 00:48:13.219
to protect game. So he's in New York, but the

00:48:13.219 --> 00:48:16.280
case is going on. The biological survey is pursuing

00:48:16.280 --> 00:48:18.179
the case, goes all the way to the Supreme Court.

00:48:19.410 --> 00:48:22.349
And the decision is written by Oliver Wendell

00:48:22.349 --> 00:48:24.530
Holmes Jr., probably the most famous Supreme

00:48:24.530 --> 00:48:29.110
Court justice ever. And Oliver Holmes, Oliver

00:48:29.110 --> 00:48:31.650
Wendell Holmes Jr. is not particularly sympathetic

00:48:31.650 --> 00:48:35.530
to the attorney general of Missouri, who's flouting

00:48:35.530 --> 00:48:37.989
the law, not only violating the law, but openly

00:48:37.989 --> 00:48:40.190
flouting it and using it as a campaign issue

00:48:40.190 --> 00:48:44.449
to run for governor. So he notes, you know, this

00:48:44.449 --> 00:48:49.289
idea about state rights versus federal rights,

00:48:49.429 --> 00:48:51.409
first of all, had kind of already been decided

00:48:51.409 --> 00:48:54.769
in the recently ended civil war. Right. Other

00:48:54.769 --> 00:48:58.690
things and comes up with the supremacy clause

00:48:58.690 --> 00:49:02.050
that says, you know, international treaties are

00:49:02.050 --> 00:49:04.289
the supreme law of the land. So we can't make

00:49:04.289 --> 00:49:07.250
a treaty with Canada and then have Wisconsin

00:49:07.250 --> 00:49:09.960
say, I'm not going to. abide by that treaty.

00:49:10.300 --> 00:49:14.059
It's international. And then he goes on to give

00:49:14.059 --> 00:49:18.239
a very wholehearted appreciation for conservation.

00:49:18.280 --> 00:49:20.599
And that's probably the most numerous or the

00:49:20.599 --> 00:49:24.699
most important thing. It's a Supreme Court decision

00:49:24.699 --> 00:49:27.440
that could have been written by Theodore Roosevelt

00:49:27.440 --> 00:49:30.400
or John Muir or Aldo Leopold. And he says, you

00:49:30.400 --> 00:49:35.400
know, just because these birds land in your state

00:49:35.400 --> 00:49:37.949
or your country, doesn't mean you have the right

00:49:37.949 --> 00:49:40.829
to deprive other people of ever having the chance

00:49:40.829 --> 00:49:43.349
to see them or hunt them or appreciate them in

00:49:43.349 --> 00:49:46.429
any way. That's not the way it works. They're

00:49:46.429 --> 00:49:50.869
a international resource and a national resource

00:49:50.869 --> 00:49:53.909
that belongs to all of the American people and

00:49:53.909 --> 00:49:56.949
should be protected for future generations. So

00:49:56.949 --> 00:49:58.809
he didn't just narrowly look at the law and say,

00:49:58.889 --> 00:50:03.630
hey, it's a treaty. You got to obey it. He really

00:50:03.630 --> 00:50:09.019
made a strong conservation effort. in his decision,

00:50:09.019 --> 00:50:13.480
and it transformed our agency. And that the reality

00:50:13.480 --> 00:50:16.280
is there's so many species that migrate across

00:50:16.280 --> 00:50:18.900
international boundaries, state boundaries, county

00:50:18.900 --> 00:50:22.980
boundaries. The only way to protect those types

00:50:22.980 --> 00:50:25.099
of species, or you think about oceanic species

00:50:25.099 --> 00:50:30.440
too, is to have overarching protection for them.

00:50:30.619 --> 00:50:33.480
And it really, after that, there aren't any more

00:50:33.480 --> 00:50:37.139
challenges. And initially it looked like almost

00:50:37.139 --> 00:50:38.940
all the states along the Mississippi weren't

00:50:38.940 --> 00:50:41.480
going to enforce it. That was a major flyway,

00:50:41.699 --> 00:50:45.079
a major Murray Pothole region, and it transforms

00:50:45.079 --> 00:50:47.599
our agency. A lot of the conservation work we

00:50:47.599 --> 00:50:50.480
do since then, all the way up through the Endangered

00:50:50.480 --> 00:50:53.980
Species Act, that precedent is set in 1920 with

00:50:53.980 --> 00:50:56.760
the Missouri versus Holland. So one agent who

00:50:56.760 --> 00:50:58.800
worked for us for a relatively short period of

00:50:58.800 --> 00:51:04.059
time, changed conservation history. Every first

00:51:04.059 --> 00:51:07.039
year law student reads Missouri versus Holland.

00:51:07.519 --> 00:51:10.300
I don't know if any of them know that Ray Holland

00:51:10.300 --> 00:51:15.380
was a game protector whose job was to cover seven

00:51:15.380 --> 00:51:19.659
states and spend most of his time giving fines

00:51:19.659 --> 00:51:23.559
to the spring hunters illegally shooting waterfowl.

00:51:24.159 --> 00:51:26.440
And it's a great story. One man can make a difference.

00:51:26.840 --> 00:51:29.300
It is an awesome story. And you know what? I

00:51:29.300 --> 00:51:31.340
went to law school and I did not know at the

00:51:31.340 --> 00:51:34.019
time that that came out of a wildlife case. I

00:51:34.019 --> 00:51:37.480
think. Yeah, I love my wife is a lawyer and she

00:51:37.480 --> 00:51:40.360
studied it too. And it was like I was like, hey.

00:51:40.559 --> 00:51:43.619
I have a history behind it. We didn't cover that.

00:51:44.039 --> 00:51:47.840
No, not at all. Law school is all about the supremacy

00:51:47.840 --> 00:51:49.960
clause of the US government when there's a conflict

00:51:49.960 --> 00:51:51.920
between federal and state law, federal rules,

00:51:51.920 --> 00:51:54.480
federal controls. That's what you'd study in

00:51:54.480 --> 00:51:57.260
law school. You don't study the background of

00:51:57.260 --> 00:52:00.800
the conservation issue. And when you were describing

00:52:00.800 --> 00:52:04.179
what the justice said, Oliver Wendell Holmes,

00:52:04.519 --> 00:52:08.219
he... It just sounds so much like the second

00:52:08.219 --> 00:52:11.440
guest I ever had on this podcast was a retired

00:52:11.440 --> 00:52:14.099
special agent named cash reefer, who worked in

00:52:14.099 --> 00:52:17.440
the southeastern U S on a lot of migratory bird

00:52:17.440 --> 00:52:20.119
issues. And, you know, could have been cash speaking

00:52:20.119 --> 00:52:21.900
when you were talking about what the justice

00:52:21.900 --> 00:52:26.199
said. It's, it's, um, that's unbelievable. You

00:52:26.199 --> 00:52:28.579
know, the unsung heroes, you know, I didn't even

00:52:28.579 --> 00:52:30.320
know who Ray Holland was till you brought him

00:52:30.320 --> 00:52:32.460
up to me when we were talking about you being

00:52:32.460 --> 00:52:35.420
on this episode. And, uh, It's just incredible.

00:52:35.619 --> 00:52:37.539
Just think how many more people are out there

00:52:37.539 --> 00:52:39.739
who accomplished amazing things who we don't

00:52:39.739 --> 00:52:42.559
know about, right? Yeah. Yeah. And that's one

00:52:42.559 --> 00:52:44.860
of the things we try to do in the archive and

00:52:44.860 --> 00:52:48.099
museum and in my job is to unearth these stories

00:52:48.099 --> 00:52:53.539
and realize how impressive your predecessors

00:52:53.539 --> 00:52:57.940
were at and inspire people. to do great things

00:52:57.940 --> 00:52:59.739
themselves too, right? If these guys could do

00:52:59.739 --> 00:53:04.679
it in the 1918 and the 1920s with, as you noted,

00:53:05.260 --> 00:53:10.679
very little technology, very few agents to carry

00:53:10.679 --> 00:53:13.980
out these laws, imagine what we can do today

00:53:13.980 --> 00:53:18.239
with much better training, much better support

00:53:18.239 --> 00:53:22.579
as an agency and these precedents that came before

00:53:22.579 --> 00:53:25.170
us. Exactly, yeah, never forget where you came

00:53:25.170 --> 00:53:30.030
from, right? Yep. That's good stuff. I just can't

00:53:30.030 --> 00:53:32.110
tell you how thankful I am that you're there

00:53:32.110 --> 00:53:35.510
and that you do what you do because, you know,

00:53:35.590 --> 00:53:39.389
I'm a hardcore, I was a hardcore dedicated agent,

00:53:39.590 --> 00:53:41.909
I believe in the mission. I know you were. You

00:53:41.909 --> 00:53:44.329
know, it means a lot to me to be able to learn

00:53:44.329 --> 00:53:46.969
about what other people have done and who's gone

00:53:46.969 --> 00:53:50.190
before me and wouldn't happen without your efforts.

00:53:50.190 --> 00:53:53.820
So I really appreciate it. Have you we talked

00:53:53.820 --> 00:53:56.099
a little bit about this, but you were talking

00:53:56.099 --> 00:53:58.400
about how dangerous it was back at that time.

00:53:58.880 --> 00:54:01.440
You know, in the 20s, there were a lot of shootouts

00:54:01.440 --> 00:54:05.820
involving not only state game officers, but federal

00:54:05.820 --> 00:54:08.539
game officers. A lot of them were killed, seriously

00:54:08.539 --> 00:54:12.980
injured, a lot of gunfire were at some point

00:54:12.980 --> 00:54:15.760
in this podcast. I'm going to do a whole episode

00:54:15.760 --> 00:54:17.880
on or a series of episodes. I haven't decided

00:54:17.880 --> 00:54:20.960
how it's going to go. I will for sure use you

00:54:20.960 --> 00:54:23.320
for some help. But we're going to do a series

00:54:23.320 --> 00:54:25.699
of episodes about officers who were either killed

00:54:25.699 --> 00:54:28.480
or injured in the line of duty, going back to

00:54:28.480 --> 00:54:31.280
the earliest days and tell their stories in,

00:54:31.639 --> 00:54:34.400
in, in hopefully a very engaging, like, you know,

00:54:34.559 --> 00:54:36.900
storytelling way that will bring people right

00:54:36.900 --> 00:54:41.159
there back to whatever it was, 1920, 1918, 1940.

00:54:42.360 --> 00:54:46.079
Um, at some point, our agency mentioned had the

00:54:46.079 --> 00:54:49.239
title of the officers had changed to a game management

00:54:49.239 --> 00:54:52.380
agent. And this is before we became special agents,

00:54:52.440 --> 00:54:55.059
but we were still federal agents focused a lot

00:54:55.059 --> 00:54:58.119
on Lacey Act and migratory birds. The last time

00:54:58.119 --> 00:55:00.360
we had an agent shot in the line of duty was

00:55:00.360 --> 00:55:04.500
actually 1962. I was a guy named Vic Blasevic.

00:55:05.079 --> 00:55:07.480
Did you ever have occasion to talk to Vic or

00:55:07.480 --> 00:55:10.239
do you know much about him? I do not know a lot

00:55:10.239 --> 00:55:12.599
about Vic at all. I know he was shot. I did not

00:55:12.599 --> 00:55:15.559
know he was the last agent. I'm happy. He was

00:55:15.559 --> 00:55:18.500
the last. We've had a good run for the last 60

00:55:18.500 --> 00:55:20.679
years or so, but I don't really know the story

00:55:20.679 --> 00:55:25.000
about. You know, I when I came out of the Academy

00:55:25.000 --> 00:55:28.619
in 2003, I didn't know anything about it. Never

00:55:28.619 --> 00:55:30.119
learned. You know, when we were at the Academy,

00:55:30.239 --> 00:55:33.139
there is no where at the time there was no section

00:55:33.139 --> 00:55:36.139
on history about of our agency or our agents.

00:55:37.079 --> 00:55:39.800
Anything you picked up, it was just kind of from

00:55:39.800 --> 00:55:44.159
a lucky meeting with you, Mark or. Somebody said

00:55:44.159 --> 00:55:46.760
something, and I don't even know where I heard

00:55:46.760 --> 00:55:50.400
about it, but I few years after I became an agent,

00:55:50.400 --> 00:55:52.360
I heard it, but that one of our agents had been

00:55:52.360 --> 00:55:54.940
shot and I actually looked him up. He was retired

00:55:54.940 --> 00:55:57.679
and I called him and I said, Hey, a new agent.

00:55:58.159 --> 00:56:00.420
I just heard for the first time that you were

00:56:00.420 --> 00:56:02.619
shot in the line of duty. Tell me the story.

00:56:03.159 --> 00:56:07.239
And it's an incredible story. And, uh, Mark,

00:56:07.440 --> 00:56:10.280
I'm going to, I'm going to tell the story. From

00:56:10.280 --> 00:56:12.440
what I know, having talked to Nick and having

00:56:12.440 --> 00:56:15.320
done some research about it, I'll make sure I

00:56:15.320 --> 00:56:18.219
send you everything I've got about it. It's an

00:56:18.219 --> 00:56:22.099
incredible story. The guy ended up being ambushed

00:56:22.099 --> 00:56:25.340
and shot multiple times, survived, continued

00:56:25.340 --> 00:56:27.400
his career, went on to become the special agent

00:56:27.400 --> 00:56:31.199
in charge of investigations at headquarters before

00:56:31.199 --> 00:56:34.840
he retired. He died in 2008, but I fortunately

00:56:34.840 --> 00:56:37.309
had a chance to talk to him on the phone. But

00:56:37.309 --> 00:56:38.710
sorry, with you, I'm going to tell that story.

00:56:39.050 --> 00:56:40.630
I would love to hear it. I always like learning

00:56:40.630 --> 00:56:45.090
new histories. Awesome. Mark Madison, historian

00:56:45.090 --> 00:56:46.929
at U .S. Fish and Wildlife Service. Thank you

00:56:46.929 --> 00:56:48.869
so much for being on the podcast. Everything

00:56:48.869 --> 00:56:51.269
you do for the service is so important. And I

00:56:51.269 --> 00:56:53.829
want you to know that you are valued by not just

00:56:53.829 --> 00:56:56.030
the agents of the Fish and Wildlife Service,

00:56:56.170 --> 00:56:59.550
but all of the employees and I think by the people

00:56:59.550 --> 00:57:01.409
of the United States for what you do. Thank you

00:57:01.409 --> 00:57:04.889
so much. Thanks, Ed. Appreciate the chance to

00:57:04.889 --> 00:57:07.909
get to speak to folks. Hey, I will give you an

00:57:07.909 --> 00:57:10.449
opportunity anytime you want to come on the show.

00:57:10.869 --> 00:57:13.570
Sounds good. All right. Thank you, Mark, everybody.

00:57:13.570 --> 00:57:17.429
Thanks for tuning in. Take care. Nature's Secret

00:57:17.429 --> 00:57:20.210
Service is written and produced by me, Ed Newcomer,

00:57:20.409 --> 00:57:23.250
and is co -produced by the DHTV team here at

00:57:23.250 --> 00:57:25.489
California State University Dominguez Hills.

00:57:25.829 --> 00:57:27.829
Follow us on social media and connect with us

00:57:27.829 --> 00:57:30.150
online at naturessecretservice .com.