WEBVTT

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If you want to learn more about the topics of

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today's episode, visit the podcast website at

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naturessecretservice .com. Thanks for listening.

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OK, people, listen up. Here we go. This is Nature's

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Secret Service, the podcast that puts you in

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the room with the men and women of wildlife law

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enforcement. I'm Ed Newcomer, your host. Today,

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our guest is Jeff Bouda, former wildlife officer

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with the Florida Fish and Wildlife Conservation

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Commission. He has an astounding 35 -year career

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in public service with the state of Florida.

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25 years of those were as a sworn wildlife officer

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with the state. He retired in 2019. I first heard

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about Jeff maybe, I don't know, a year or so

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ago, and I immediately knew I wanted to have

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him on the podcast. Jeff, thanks so much for

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joining us. You're joining us from your home

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in Florida. I really appreciate you taking the

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time to do that. Welcome to Nature's Secret Service.

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Well, thank you. Happy to be here. We're going

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to talk about something I think really fun today.

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Because as you know, before you came on the show,

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I actually asked you, I said, hey, make sure

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you go back and listen to our very first episode.

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Because our first episode was with a retired

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US Fish and Wildlife Service agent named Marie

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Palladini, who worked on alligator trafficking

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cases early in her career. And I think it's so

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fascinating that you kind of closed out your

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career. working on an alligator trafficking case.

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Yes, it was. Um, it was just something that,

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uh, you know, started like four years prior to

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retirement. Amazing. And, and if you think about

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it, that's like a 40 year span between what she

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was working on and what you worked on, which

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is pretty cool. So it's catch us up a little

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bit before we jump into the investigation you

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worked on as a state officer in Florida. catch

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us up a little bit. If I remember right, your

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operation kind of kicked off around 2015. If

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you can kind of tell us, what was the situation

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with alligators in Florida at that time? What's

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their status? Why are they a concern for this

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Florida Fish and Wildlife Conservation Commission?

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Just give us some background. Well, as you know,

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with Marie's case, she fell into it. right when

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they put the alligator in the endangered species

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list back in the 70s, early 60s, or late 60s,

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early 70s. And then by the time I came on as

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an officer, the conservation practice was very

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successful. That the state of Florida began a

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alligator hunt, public hunts, which still goes

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on till today. But then we started trying to

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get more farmers involved in the state of Florida.

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So the state of Florida began a farming program

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to where individuals, private individuals can

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farm alligators for their hide and their meat

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and all that on top of that. They can also produce

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eggs that'll you know, add to their farm. As

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in Louisiana, they do the same program except

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the farmers there need to put back a certain

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percentage, if I'm not mistaken, back into the

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wild population. So what caused our investigation

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was we did an inspection of all the farmers throughout

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the state of Florida and we were getting all

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this data. that wasn't, using the word, it wasn't

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jiving with what the wild population and our

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biologists is saying that it's not sustainable

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for these numbers that these farmers were turning

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in. They were having like 110 % hatch rates.

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They're producing all these hatchlings and returning

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it to their ponds to... to raise and all that.

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So I kind of threw up a red flag with our staff,

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especially our inspectors. And they kind of thought,

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maybe what if these alligator eggs were being

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taken through these farms and sold illegally?

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where they were being funneled through the farms.

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And that's how they're getting all these hatch

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rates. So that's when I came into the picture.

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Interesting. Let me back up just a little bit.

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So there's a couple of cool points here. One

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is, because alligators had been listed on the

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Endangered Species Act and law enforcement officers

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like Marie Palladini and Florida state officers,

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Louisiana state officers, and other federal officers,

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worked so diligently on this in the 70s, alligators

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recovered to the point where they actually became

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commercially viable. That, I think, is a really

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interesting, cool thing. Not only are they in

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the wild, but they actually can now be farmed.

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And it sounds like they're very closely regulated

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by the state. But I'm a little confused this.

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So it sounds like the numbers in the paperwork

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aren't matching up with your inspectors, like

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the too high of a hatch rate for these farms.

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So what's the suspicion? Is it that they're going

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out and they're supplementing their stock by

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taking eggs from the wild? Yes. And then they're

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being laundered through the alligator farms and

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being sold that way. Got it. Like I said, that's

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when the agency decided we needed to do a little

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bit more thorough investigation on what's happening.

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And so that's when I came into the picture and

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they asked me to, you know, to go undercover,

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to do this. Very cool. Now, there's a funny aspect

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to this about you going undercover because, but

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first I want to ask you just, you know, in your

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experience as a state officer, certainly as a

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Fed, This kind of laundering that you're discussing

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where you take wild and you put it into a farm

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situation and then you make it look like it was

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raised on a farm. Very common with a lot of different

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animals where there is this crossover between

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wild and a farmed or what they call captive raised.

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In the feds, we see it with primates. We see

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it with all kinds of reptiles, different types

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of mammals. I assume the same for you working

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for the state. It's a problem, right? If you

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have a captive breeding program and a wild population,

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inevitably there's going to be that temptation

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for people to take from the wild and launder

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it through their captive systems. Yeah, and like

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I said, our biologists saw that, you know, you

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take a wild alligator, which a lot of the wild

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alligators that make it to these farms are actually

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our nuisance out here. Interesting. Our farmers

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are allowed to take those gators, raise them

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in a commercial environment, if you will. an

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enclosed environment. When you do that with a

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wild alligator, that is just not natural. So

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when we get these numbers that are 100 % hatch

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rate, or they're telling you that they may have

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a quarter acre pond, for instance, but the numbers

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are coming in that they're raising 125 alligators

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in that quarter acre pond. We were seeing these

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really crazy numbers. And so, you know, we did

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a little bit more thorough investigation by sending

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out more of our inspectors to go visit all these

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facilities. And they came back and that's when

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our colonel decided to, let's go ahead and do

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a covert operation, see what's going on. Real

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quick, what's a nuisance alligator? I think I

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know, but explain what that is. A nuisance alligator

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would be one like, especially during March, April,

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That's the breeding season. And you're going

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to find alligators as moving from one pond to

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another or Florida probably just like where you're

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at, it's expanding, it's booming. So we're taking

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all these lands that used to be wild lands and

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putting 250 homes in it. And so these are chasing

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all your wild... animals that used to live in

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that environment into golf courses, into these

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communities where these homes are. So people

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find them in their swimming pools, in their front

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yard, underneath a parking lot or underneath

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a car in a parking lot. So that's when we get

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called in. But we started getting, because it

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was such a success rate, we were getting so many

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calls on these nuisance alligators that the state

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started a nuisance trapper program where private

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individuals can now come in and they take care

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of a lot of those nuisance alligators too so

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we can concentrate on more important things with

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our wildlife. Got it. Like I said, the farmers

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then, how they make their money, the trappers,

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is we don't pay them in. I see. What they do

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for us as far as catching these nuisance alligators

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that's how they source out their revenue by selling

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it to farmers or butchering it themselves and

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then selling the hide and the meat and whenever

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the price is right, of course. Yeah. OK. So I'm

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sure that's something else that's heavily regulated

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by your agency. OK. So your command staff comes

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to you and says, hey, Jeff, we think there's

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a problem here. We want you to go undercover.

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You're kind of at the end of your career. What's

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your first thoughts on when that happens to you?

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Well, when here's what started the whole thing,

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you know, as law enforcement officers, we have

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a continuing education and I've taken so many

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courses and classes that I saw a covert operation

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course being put on by our agency, which actually

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attracts other fish and wildlife agencies to

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Florida to take this course. So I had like four

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years left and I decided, you know, that'd be

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something cool for me to do. I have no intention

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of going ever going undercover. It was just something

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that looked like fun. So I took the course. Evidently,

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I did well because about a year later and later

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on, I find out, by the way, that this is pretty

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much how they pick people to go undercover. And

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so I get a call, several calls. And the first

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time I received the call, I not only said no,

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but I said, hell no, because I'm fixing to go

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under, or I'm fixing to retire and I don't want

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to get hurt or injured before I retire. So the

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calls kept coming. So it wasn't until like the

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third or fourth call when they said, hey, we

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know you're going to retire here in a few years,

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but. If you were successful with this, how would

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you like to go out with a bang? No kidding. I'll

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meet with command staff. Okay. But I don't know.

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Uh, I had to talk to the wife, which of course

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she didn't like the idea. So I met with them

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and usually when you do something like this,

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it's so secretive. There's only a couple. Handful

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of command staff that that will meet with you,

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but then they don't ever tell you what you're

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gonna do So I agreed to a one year Being out

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of uniform to the covert operation and As long

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as I commit it to one year, then they would they

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would go back and have their little meeting.

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Anyways, they got all approved. Okay But prior

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to leaving the command staff that day The last

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thing they told me was you might want to grow

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your hair out. Because I'm not your ordinary,

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you know, I look Hawaiian, Asian. Most people

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have Mexican. Most people have no clue what my

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background is. So I do stand out. I really stand

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out, especially within my community. If you say

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this Asian Hawaiian looking guy, which incidentally

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I'm originally from Guam. They'll say, Oh yeah,

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that's the guy that checked me. Right. Versus,

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you know, uh, uh, uh, uh, a blonde hair, blue

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eyed came more. And so I stood out. So when they

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told me you might want to grow your hair out,

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grow goatee or beard, whatever, because, uh,

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you're going to go deep under. I didn't realize

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later on that the county that I was going to

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be assigned to do this covert operation was right

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next door. And I've worked, I've worked this

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area. But still at the time when they ask you

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to do this, they don't tell you that. So the

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very first thing that I did actually prior to

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this, and I kind of took it as a field training

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program where I got to learn how to use different

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tools and, you know, audio equipment and video

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recordings. And so the first thing I actually

00:14:21.700 --> 00:14:24.840
did was we had an issue with softshell turtles

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in central Florida and that already had an investigation

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going on and kind of determined that the problem's

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pretty close by to where I'm going to be assigned

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to. So me and my assigned lieutenant at the time,

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my covert lieutenant, went and kind of did a

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little bit of surveillance on this individual

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that was involved with these Chinese people that

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had opened up a turtle farm here in Okeechobee.

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And we kind of had some suspicion that people

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were bringing turtles over. They're not necessarily

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just all soft -shelled turtles, but box turtles

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and other turtles, snapping turtles, but they're

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really after soft -shelled turtles. So when we

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were doing the surveillance on this one individual,

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we were driving past his house. and we saw a

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dog box in the front of his house, which meant

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he's a big dog hunter. More than likely, he's

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a big hog hunter. Right. Using dogs to hunt,

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right? Correct. So we pulled into his driveway,

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knocked on the door, and we use this excuse that

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we own a... My lieutenant at the time owned a

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landscaping business, and I was one of the employees.

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And we were wanting to know if he would sell

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us a hog for a big gathering that we're gonna

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have. And prior to pulling him to his house,

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we just happened to have a huge turtle in the

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back of our truck. And we made agreements of

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the price, the whole bit, so now the guy's following

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us out to the truck. And he hears that thing

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scratching the back of the turtle or the truck,

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looks back there and he sees a soft -shelled

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turtle. And he immediately says, man, where did

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you get that thing? And it was a pretty large

00:16:31.029 --> 00:16:34.990
turtle. And I told him, I said, you know, up

00:16:34.990 --> 00:16:40.529
at our shop where we, you know, sharpen all our

00:16:40.529 --> 00:16:43.669
equipment, our lawnmower blades and repair all

00:16:43.669 --> 00:16:46.750
our equipment for the landscaping business, there's

00:16:46.750 --> 00:16:49.950
this huge pond. and I found this turtle when

00:16:49.950 --> 00:16:54.090
it was outside of the pond, and I captured it.

00:16:54.289 --> 00:16:56.850
Didn't know what to do with it, and I said, you

00:16:56.850 --> 00:16:59.889
want it? He goes, shoot yeah, man. I'll take

00:16:59.889 --> 00:17:03.330
that thing. I know a guy that I can sell them

00:17:03.330 --> 00:17:05.809
to. So that's what started the whole thing. Interesting.

00:17:06.329 --> 00:17:09.049
Then I began going out, and we hooked up with

00:17:09.049 --> 00:17:13.309
an individual that was complaining about, he

00:17:13.309 --> 00:17:18.829
was a commercial fisherman. that his area that

00:17:18.829 --> 00:17:22.490
he normally catches all these turtles were, you

00:17:22.490 --> 00:17:26.069
know, the numbers weren't right. He felt like

00:17:26.069 --> 00:17:28.509
somebody was raping the waters in his work. So

00:17:28.509 --> 00:17:30.930
he's feeling like he's not catching as much as

00:17:30.930 --> 00:17:33.910
he should. Correct. Yeah, too few. And he knew

00:17:33.910 --> 00:17:37.069
that there was something going on and that anyways,

00:17:37.150 --> 00:17:40.609
he wanted to help us out. Help Florida Fish and

00:17:40.609 --> 00:17:46.009
Wildlife. So he volunteered to help me get turtles.

00:17:46.150 --> 00:17:49.049
So we would, I would leave my home, this prior

00:17:49.049 --> 00:17:52.529
before me even going completely under, I would

00:17:52.529 --> 00:17:54.609
leave my home early, early in the morning at

00:17:54.609 --> 00:17:56.309
four o 'clock and I'd meet him. He was about

00:17:56.309 --> 00:17:59.509
an hour and a half from me and we'd go out and

00:17:59.509 --> 00:18:03.069
we'd set these trout lines. You know, he told

00:18:03.069 --> 00:18:05.430
me what one time it was anywhere from three quarters

00:18:05.430 --> 00:18:14.130
to a mile long. Trot line is a set of lines with

00:18:14.130 --> 00:18:18.309
all these drop lines on it with hooks and you

00:18:18.309 --> 00:18:21.049
bait them and you release them out in the water

00:18:21.049 --> 00:18:24.210
and you can make a loop along the shoreline or

00:18:24.210 --> 00:18:28.170
however you want to set it up and you can catch

00:18:28.170 --> 00:18:32.009
everything from his targets were softshell turtles

00:18:32.009 --> 00:18:37.720
and catfish. He would catch a few of the turtles

00:18:37.720 --> 00:18:41.779
for us. And, you know, I could see what he was

00:18:41.779 --> 00:18:44.680
complaining about because, you know, for us to

00:18:44.680 --> 00:18:47.539
set out, let's just say we set out 500 lines,

00:18:48.299 --> 00:18:51.539
500 hooks, we'd be lucky if we caught 10 turtles.

00:18:52.059 --> 00:18:54.500
Normally, what would you catch if things were?

00:18:54.799 --> 00:18:57.019
Mostly catfish, mostly catfish. I mean, assuming

00:18:57.019 --> 00:18:59.519
things were not going downhill for turtles, how

00:18:59.519 --> 00:19:01.839
many would you have expected? on a 500 hook.

00:19:01.960 --> 00:19:04.119
Oh, he, you know, in the, in the old days, he

00:19:04.119 --> 00:19:06.339
would tell him, tell me him and his daddy back

00:19:06.339 --> 00:19:08.420
in the old days would catch anywhere from 60

00:19:08.420 --> 00:19:13.000
to 100, uh, easily every, every couple of days.

00:19:13.720 --> 00:19:16.359
So he had a legitimate complaint that there was

00:19:16.359 --> 00:19:19.220
something happening. So I will take those turtles

00:19:19.220 --> 00:19:23.000
now and take it to that individual that was selling

00:19:23.000 --> 00:19:27.200
it to the Hispanic guy. And, uh, we will take

00:19:27.200 --> 00:19:30.099
it out. back to in the back of his house and

00:19:30.099 --> 00:19:36.700
he had all these huge Cattle troughs and he put

00:19:36.700 --> 00:19:39.180
a little bit of water in it and he put all these

00:19:39.180 --> 00:19:41.700
turtles in it and he had all these palm fronds

00:19:41.700 --> 00:19:44.619
on top of the troughs to keep them in the shade

00:19:44.619 --> 00:19:49.980
until his in person Would come and pick pick

00:19:49.980 --> 00:19:53.559
them up and then pay him So that that went on

00:19:53.559 --> 00:19:58.990
for a few days or a few a few weeks But the very

00:19:58.990 --> 00:20:04.630
first time that we did that, as we left his home,

00:20:05.329 --> 00:20:10.049
we had an idea of the vehicle that these people

00:20:10.049 --> 00:20:12.549
were driving, these Chinese people. And it was

00:20:12.549 --> 00:20:18.789
a blue van. And as we were leaving the individual's

00:20:18.789 --> 00:20:21.190
house, guess what passes us? It was a blue van.

00:20:21.750 --> 00:20:25.349
And so we knew that that connection was, we hit

00:20:25.349 --> 00:20:28.450
it just right. So anyways, this went on for several

00:20:28.450 --> 00:20:32.049
weeks and then after about maybe three months

00:20:32.049 --> 00:20:35.549
of this is when the agency decided to take them

00:20:35.549 --> 00:20:37.650
down because we have then discovered that they

00:20:37.650 --> 00:20:42.109
were leaving Florida going all the way up to

00:20:42.109 --> 00:20:46.150
New York and then they were being put in a container

00:20:46.150 --> 00:20:51.190
alive from New York and then being shipped to

00:20:51.190 --> 00:20:55.000
China where they're... considered a delicacy.

00:20:55.339 --> 00:20:59.039
So you kind of use this turtle case to kind of

00:20:59.039 --> 00:21:02.299
get yourself ready to go into the bigger alligator

00:21:02.299 --> 00:21:06.119
case, right? Yes. And I'm glad I did. Looking

00:21:06.119 --> 00:21:10.880
back at some of the photos and the way I taped

00:21:10.880 --> 00:21:14.720
the individual, you know, we're standing in front

00:21:14.720 --> 00:21:18.720
of the scale because he was paying me by the

00:21:18.720 --> 00:21:25.490
pound. I've got these tools that we would use.

00:21:25.609 --> 00:21:31.049
Actually, it was a key fob that had a camera

00:21:31.049 --> 00:21:34.009
in it and a tape recorder, and I could tape everything

00:21:34.009 --> 00:21:38.490
that's going on. So after a few months of that,

00:21:38.490 --> 00:21:41.230
maybe four or five months, we decided to wrap

00:21:41.230 --> 00:21:46.970
it up. We followed them up to New York and determined

00:21:46.970 --> 00:21:48.809
that we needed to go ahead and take them down.

00:21:50.430 --> 00:21:56.549
I wasn't a part of that takedown. So right after

00:21:56.549 --> 00:22:01.150
the takedown, we had a little meeting and that's

00:22:01.150 --> 00:22:05.289
when they threw me a set of keys. And they said,

00:22:05.289 --> 00:22:09.109
here's your real operation. Remember they haven't

00:22:09.109 --> 00:22:11.250
told me what I was going to go undercover. You

00:22:11.250 --> 00:22:12.869
still didn't know at this point it was going

00:22:12.869 --> 00:22:15.109
to be alligators. No, no, no. Interesting. Okay,

00:22:15.509 --> 00:22:22.089
okay. I catch the keys and there's a note attached

00:22:22.089 --> 00:22:23.950
to it and this is the address. And I said, what

00:22:23.950 --> 00:22:27.650
is it? And he said, that's the address. Go look

00:22:27.650 --> 00:22:33.950
at this place. So I go to a town near called

00:22:33.950 --> 00:22:41.250
Arcadia and I go to this address and I opened

00:22:41.250 --> 00:22:43.450
the gate and they gave me the combination and

00:22:43.450 --> 00:22:48.859
it's a dump. They had already rented a... nine

00:22:48.859 --> 00:22:51.660
acre piece of property had three ponds on the

00:22:51.660 --> 00:22:57.200
property. And so I called him up and I said,

00:22:57.400 --> 00:23:00.160
what is this place? And they said, you're going

00:23:00.160 --> 00:23:02.900
to turn that into an alligator farm. This is

00:23:02.900 --> 00:23:05.279
the first, this is the first you've heard of

00:23:05.279 --> 00:23:07.039
what you're going to be doing undercover work

00:23:07.039 --> 00:23:10.940
on the very first time. They don't tell you that.

00:23:11.160 --> 00:23:14.119
Why? What? That is so foreign to me. It's just

00:23:14.119 --> 00:23:18.980
that secretive that They're afraid that I'm gonna

00:23:18.980 --> 00:23:23.900
pull out and, you know, start telling everybody,

00:23:24.240 --> 00:23:27.140
hey, they asked me to go undercover to open up

00:23:27.140 --> 00:23:29.859
this alligator farm. I don't know, it wasn't,

00:23:30.099 --> 00:23:32.079
they didn't want to take their chances. That

00:23:32.079 --> 00:23:35.819
seems like, that really strikes me as so odd

00:23:35.819 --> 00:23:38.380
that that never would happen in the US Fish and

00:23:38.380 --> 00:23:40.299
Wildlife. We would always involve the undercover

00:23:40.299 --> 00:23:43.440
person at the very beginning of. developing an

00:23:43.440 --> 00:23:46.299
operation. It's just such a strange way to operate.

00:23:46.440 --> 00:23:48.779
I don't understand the logic. But but you know,

00:23:48.980 --> 00:23:50.900
that's the way they do it. Pretty much worked

00:23:50.900 --> 00:23:54.680
out because they told me that whatever, anything

00:23:54.680 --> 00:23:57.460
to do that has to do with alligators, you're

00:23:57.460 --> 00:24:00.599
gonna, you're gonna start with this farm. And

00:24:00.599 --> 00:24:04.160
you're gonna what we're interested in is alligator.

00:24:04.319 --> 00:24:07.559
I see. And I'm like, I've never even seen an

00:24:07.559 --> 00:24:10.680
alligator egg, you know, during as a as a normal

00:24:10.680 --> 00:24:14.720
patrol officer, as a normal game or now wasn't

00:24:14.720 --> 00:24:18.119
anything we really did. We have inspectors in

00:24:18.119 --> 00:24:21.680
the agency that go and evaluate all these farmers

00:24:21.680 --> 00:24:25.339
or inspect them. So I've never even really seen,

00:24:25.440 --> 00:24:29.059
I've caught hundreds, literally hundreds of alligators.

00:24:29.059 --> 00:24:31.859
As part of your job, yeah. The nuisance gators,

00:24:31.960 --> 00:24:35.079
all that. But I've never really seen an alligator.

00:24:35.079 --> 00:24:40.690
Interesting. Like everybody else I googled and

00:24:40.690 --> 00:24:43.650
got on YouTube how to be an alligator farmer

00:24:43.650 --> 00:24:47.849
and I Began building this so -called farm. I

00:24:47.849 --> 00:24:51.910
had to follow the agency's policies on fencing

00:24:51.910 --> 00:24:55.650
and and everything Had to apply for permits,

00:24:55.650 --> 00:25:00.710
but everything had to be done covert. Okay even

00:25:00.710 --> 00:25:05.150
the inspector that came to Inspect my facility.

00:25:05.289 --> 00:25:09.349
I knew the guy When they called me and the lieutenant

00:25:09.349 --> 00:25:12.769
called me, he said, hey, I've set you up an inspection.

00:25:13.809 --> 00:25:16.250
Go ahead and give this guy a call. And he told

00:25:16.250 --> 00:25:18.529
me the individual's name. I said, man, I know

00:25:18.529 --> 00:25:20.549
that. He goes, you're going to have to come out

00:25:20.549 --> 00:25:23.769
with something. So you got to keep your cover

00:25:23.769 --> 00:25:28.170
even with other people? Within the agency. OK,

00:25:28.470 --> 00:25:30.990
OK. You know, even throughout the Academy when

00:25:30.990 --> 00:25:33.910
I first joined, even at the Academy, they told

00:25:33.910 --> 00:25:37.099
us about people. going undercover. And that if

00:25:37.099 --> 00:25:39.339
you ever run into somebody, you never talk to

00:25:39.339 --> 00:25:41.859
and you have any suspicion because they got long

00:25:41.859 --> 00:25:44.259
hair or something. But even though you're sitting

00:25:44.259 --> 00:25:46.799
at a bar and you recognize this guy, you just

00:25:46.799 --> 00:25:50.599
just just never talk to him. Don't don't. No,

00:25:50.680 --> 00:25:56.980
no, no. So you you know that. So what I did was

00:25:56.980 --> 00:26:00.319
about an hour before he arrived at my facility.

00:26:01.119 --> 00:26:03.700
I got the hell out of And I called him and I

00:26:03.700 --> 00:26:05.599
said, listen, I've got a family, and I disguised

00:26:05.599 --> 00:26:09.180
my voice and I said, I've got a family emergency.

00:26:11.440 --> 00:26:15.460
All my paperwork is in the barn. You'll find

00:26:15.460 --> 00:26:17.960
the keys underneath the mat. This is the gate

00:26:17.960 --> 00:26:21.440
combo. Please go help yourself. I'm sorry I couldn't

00:26:21.440 --> 00:26:25.640
be there. You tell me what all I need to open

00:26:25.640 --> 00:26:27.700
up this farm. And next thing you know, I'm getting

00:26:27.700 --> 00:26:34.049
my permit. I was lacking a few items. You know,

00:26:34.170 --> 00:26:39.410
people will circumvent the law. And for a professional

00:26:39.410 --> 00:26:43.430
farm, for instance, they have raceways, like

00:26:43.430 --> 00:26:46.250
you would see at fish hatcheries. Well, some

00:26:46.250 --> 00:26:48.730
of the farmers have kind of circumvented that

00:26:48.730 --> 00:26:52.890
law and started using kiddie swimming pools as

00:26:52.890 --> 00:26:58.369
their way of raising hatchlings. Well, guess

00:26:58.369 --> 00:27:05.210
what? I knew the state didn't have any, or they

00:27:05.210 --> 00:27:08.049
didn't have the funds to really make this operation

00:27:08.049 --> 00:27:11.250
go right. I did not know how this was even gonna

00:27:11.250 --> 00:27:16.190
work out. Prior to me even becoming a wildlife

00:27:16.190 --> 00:27:19.470
officer, I worked with Division of Fisheries

00:27:19.470 --> 00:27:23.029
at a fish hatchery. And I know the background

00:27:23.029 --> 00:27:25.789
on what it takes to open up a fish hatchery.

00:27:26.870 --> 00:27:30.349
That was really my only obstacle to get my farming

00:27:30.349 --> 00:27:32.809
permit through Florida Fish and Wildlife was

00:27:32.809 --> 00:27:35.049
I needed to go buy a few more swimming pools.

00:27:35.049 --> 00:27:40.289
Gotcha. So as soon as he called me back and he

00:27:40.289 --> 00:27:42.960
told me I needed so many pools, I said, how do

00:27:42.960 --> 00:27:45.440
I get back with you? Because I sure as hell didn't

00:27:45.440 --> 00:27:47.519
want to go see him again. He said, just send

00:27:47.519 --> 00:27:50.200
me a receipt and a photograph of all the swimming

00:27:50.200 --> 00:27:54.019
pools. So I went to every Kmart, every Walmart

00:27:54.019 --> 00:27:57.039
where I could buy swimming pools. And that's

00:27:57.039 --> 00:27:59.339
how I completed my farm, doing it that way. And

00:27:59.339 --> 00:28:03.400
you bring up an interesting point, because your

00:28:03.400 --> 00:28:05.920
agency's asked you to start this undercover business.

00:28:06.900 --> 00:28:10.049
There, I assume, going to expect this business

00:28:10.049 --> 00:28:12.190
to kind of fund itself, right? They're not going

00:28:12.190 --> 00:28:15.230
to have unlimited financial resources to run

00:28:15.230 --> 00:28:20.569
it. No. And I really lucked out there because

00:28:20.569 --> 00:28:23.869
for a whole year there to begin with, nothing

00:28:23.869 --> 00:28:26.730
was happening. I mean, I went out and I made

00:28:26.730 --> 00:28:30.569
business cards. I made this grand entrance. I

00:28:30.569 --> 00:28:33.529
started to go out and hang out with nuisance

00:28:33.529 --> 00:28:36.809
trappers. And I would call nuisance trappers

00:28:36.809 --> 00:28:41.329
and I was building up my stock. If I found a

00:28:41.329 --> 00:28:44.269
kiosk at the local tractor supplier or Walmart,

00:28:44.589 --> 00:28:49.809
I was pasting my business cards there. I pretty

00:28:49.809 --> 00:28:52.470
much went with that saying that if you build

00:28:52.470 --> 00:28:57.779
it, they will come. made placards for my truck

00:28:57.779 --> 00:29:01.039
in case I did hook up somebody that they would

00:29:01.039 --> 00:29:04.559
know that this truck belonged to this individual

00:29:04.559 --> 00:29:08.500
or whatever. And I just paraded around Arcadia

00:29:08.500 --> 00:29:12.160
and advertised who I was. So I don't want us

00:29:12.160 --> 00:29:14.819
to run out of time on this discussion because

00:29:14.819 --> 00:29:17.019
we could probably talk all day about this, Jeff.

00:29:17.099 --> 00:29:20.359
This is so fascinating. But your ultimate goal

00:29:20.359 --> 00:29:24.460
now is to try to figure out who's laundering

00:29:24.460 --> 00:29:27.079
wild eggs into the system. Correct. So how did

00:29:27.079 --> 00:29:29.700
you make that leap then, where you got introduced

00:29:29.700 --> 00:29:32.039
to somebody who was involved in laundering wild

00:29:32.039 --> 00:29:35.160
eggs into the captive system? Well, to begin

00:29:35.160 --> 00:29:37.980
with, I was visiting other farms. I see. Okay.

00:29:38.380 --> 00:29:41.420
And I was visiting them unannounced. I wanted

00:29:41.420 --> 00:29:44.200
my name to be put out there. I wanted my farm

00:29:44.200 --> 00:29:46.400
name to be put out there, which incidentally

00:29:46.400 --> 00:29:51.480
was called Sunshine Alligator. Okay. So this

00:29:54.210 --> 00:29:58.130
industry is so nitly tight that everybody has

00:29:58.130 --> 00:30:00.710
their own trade secrets. So nobody was going

00:30:00.710 --> 00:30:02.990
to invite me in and say, Hey, this is what we

00:30:02.990 --> 00:30:06.309
do. This is a temperature we use, or this is

00:30:06.309 --> 00:30:09.509
the feed we use. Nobody was sharing any of that

00:30:09.509 --> 00:30:14.029
with me. So, you know, when I was going through

00:30:14.029 --> 00:30:16.049
all that, I was thinking, you know what? This

00:30:16.049 --> 00:30:22.410
is not, by the way, my uh, UC name undercover

00:30:22.410 --> 00:30:27.130
name was Curtis Blackledge. But when you go undercover,

00:30:27.509 --> 00:30:32.089
you try and go back to your first original name.

00:30:33.970 --> 00:30:37.309
And so I eventually became Jeff Curtis Blackledge

00:30:37.309 --> 00:30:41.309
to just being Jeff Blackledge. And that's how

00:30:41.309 --> 00:30:45.170
I would introduce myself. But my driver's license,

00:30:45.390 --> 00:30:48.309
everything, my, my bank, uh, my ATM car, everything

00:30:48.309 --> 00:30:51.400
was Curtis Blackledge. But the reason you do

00:30:51.400 --> 00:30:54.000
that is in case when you're at a restaurant and

00:30:54.000 --> 00:30:56.700
one of them officers come in or your neighbor

00:30:56.700 --> 00:31:01.059
and sees you and says, hey, Jeff, you know, then

00:31:01.059 --> 00:31:03.319
you can at least automatically respond. Exactly.

00:31:03.559 --> 00:31:04.880
Because then the other guys are like, I thought

00:31:04.880 --> 00:31:08.039
your name was Curtis. Exactly. Or worst case,

00:31:08.720 --> 00:31:10.579
the bad guys are the bad guys are yelling, hey,

00:31:10.640 --> 00:31:16.039
Curtis, and you're not turning around. That actually

00:31:16.039 --> 00:31:19.980
happened to me. I stopped by at a one of these

00:31:19.980 --> 00:31:22.279
fast food joints, and you know how you take their

00:31:22.279 --> 00:31:23.759
order and they ask you for your name. Oh boy,

00:31:23.880 --> 00:31:26.059
you just stood there waiting. I was standing

00:31:26.059 --> 00:31:29.599
there calling this guy Curtis. Finally, this

00:31:29.599 --> 00:31:32.359
older gentleman nudges me and he goes, hey man,

00:31:32.380 --> 00:31:34.180
I think they're calling your order and she's

00:31:34.180 --> 00:31:37.720
hollering my name. Oh yeah, that's me. That was

00:31:37.720 --> 00:31:40.700
a test. Well, I learned real quick that you need

00:31:40.700 --> 00:31:43.380
to learn your name. Exactly. Okay, so you're

00:31:43.380 --> 00:31:46.440
making friends and now how are you going to break

00:31:46.440 --> 00:31:49.839
into the egg business? I was showing up unannounced

00:31:49.839 --> 00:31:52.019
and I'm thinking, you know, I'm not, this is

00:31:52.019 --> 00:31:54.140
not me. So I'm just going to swallow my pride.

00:31:54.720 --> 00:31:56.480
You know, law enforcement people have a lot of

00:31:56.480 --> 00:31:59.099
pride. They don't like to be embarrassed or beat

00:31:59.099 --> 00:32:04.000
in anything. So I just started showing up unannounced,

00:32:04.079 --> 00:32:06.700
calling people and say, Hey, let's do lunch.

00:32:06.900 --> 00:32:10.099
None of that was happening. So one or a few,

00:32:10.420 --> 00:32:15.200
almost a year later, the agency decided to open

00:32:15.200 --> 00:32:18.539
up the farming industry. to even more people

00:32:18.539 --> 00:32:22.559
because it was really locked down to only 30

00:32:22.559 --> 00:32:24.400
farmers throughout the whole state of Florida.

00:32:24.759 --> 00:32:27.319
And they were wanting to host a meeting to try

00:32:27.319 --> 00:32:31.299
and go from 30 to I believe 35 farmers throughout

00:32:31.299 --> 00:32:37.079
the state. And so I happened to be hooking up

00:32:37.079 --> 00:32:40.319
with an individual close to me that showed up

00:32:40.319 --> 00:32:42.839
and attended that meeting. I was so scared to

00:32:42.839 --> 00:32:45.380
go to that meeting because I knew biologists

00:32:45.380 --> 00:32:47.440
and everybody. But so I sat in the back of the

00:32:47.440 --> 00:32:53.480
room. And so I saw this individual. And after

00:32:53.480 --> 00:32:55.880
the meeting, I went to enter to go shake hands

00:32:55.880 --> 00:32:59.220
with him. And he snubbed me. Boy, he pissed me

00:32:59.220 --> 00:33:04.200
off. I was like, man, you know, once again, you

00:33:04.200 --> 00:33:06.180
swallow, you got to swallow your pride. But to

00:33:06.180 --> 00:33:08.440
me, it was like, Damn, we've been talking to

00:33:08.440 --> 00:33:10.400
each other for almost a year, talking hunting

00:33:10.400 --> 00:33:14.099
stories and camping and fishing stories. And

00:33:14.099 --> 00:33:16.779
you're going to snub me like this. So I was on

00:33:16.779 --> 00:33:20.180
the way home. I was furious. And guess what?

00:33:20.259 --> 00:33:24.619
He calls and apologizes. And what he was doing

00:33:24.619 --> 00:33:27.839
there at the farm, he was running around trying

00:33:27.839 --> 00:33:31.779
to negotiate deals with other farmers. Well,

00:33:31.900 --> 00:33:34.619
nobody wanted to partner up with him. And he

00:33:34.619 --> 00:33:38.829
knew I was the only one that Gave it down about

00:33:38.829 --> 00:33:42.690
him. So he calls me and later on I find out that

00:33:42.690 --> 00:33:46.410
he had broken up His partnership with one of

00:33:46.410 --> 00:33:51.049
the local farms not far from my farm And he needed

00:33:51.049 --> 00:33:56.650
a partner. Hmm quickly so he calls me up and

00:33:56.650 --> 00:34:05.200
we meet and He gives me this Or he made a deal

00:34:05.200 --> 00:34:07.900
with me that he would like to use my facility.

00:34:08.739 --> 00:34:13.260
He paid me $2 ,500 upfront and $2 ,500. He was

00:34:13.260 --> 00:34:15.659
going to pay me five grand for the use of my

00:34:15.659 --> 00:34:18.739
facility. And he was going to be responsible

00:34:18.739 --> 00:34:24.679
with the airboats, everything, the containers,

00:34:25.840 --> 00:34:28.920
the vehicle. He would even start getting the

00:34:28.920 --> 00:34:31.760
permits. Remember, I had no clue how to do any

00:34:31.760 --> 00:34:35.869
of this. In the meantime, I was going out and

00:34:35.869 --> 00:34:38.969
begging people to let me put in a bid on how

00:34:38.969 --> 00:34:41.429
much I was going to pay them to go on their private

00:34:41.429 --> 00:34:45.449
lands, collect the eggs, and back prior to me

00:34:45.449 --> 00:34:49.530
going undercover, egg prices were anywhere from

00:34:49.530 --> 00:34:54.690
$5 to $10 an egg. What happened was all those

00:34:54.690 --> 00:34:59.050
hurricanes had devastated Louisiana, so their

00:34:59.050 --> 00:35:02.719
population had plummeted. that now they are depending

00:35:02.719 --> 00:35:06.559
on states like Florida, maybe Georgia and Mississippi,

00:35:07.679 --> 00:35:11.519
particularly Florida. So egg prices went from

00:35:11.519 --> 00:35:17.920
five bucks to $45 a piece. An egg. An egg. So

00:35:17.920 --> 00:35:21.059
there is a - I hit the market right. There is

00:35:21.059 --> 00:35:23.340
a legal process for collecting eggs from the

00:35:23.340 --> 00:35:26.619
wild, right? It just has to be permitted. Correct.

00:35:26.829 --> 00:35:29.469
You have to be permitted. And there's two ways.

00:35:29.530 --> 00:35:33.230
One is through a supervised collection, which

00:35:33.230 --> 00:35:36.530
we had to hire biologists that would look at

00:35:36.530 --> 00:35:39.269
the nest and basically you collect this nest,

00:35:39.650 --> 00:35:42.789
skip this one, collect this one, skip this one.

00:35:43.090 --> 00:35:47.010
And this way our population stays stable. And

00:35:47.010 --> 00:35:52.150
then the other one is a set number where our

00:35:52.150 --> 00:35:56.260
biologists would go in and say, This guy's got

00:35:56.260 --> 00:35:59.719
5 ,000 acres. We've already done a census on

00:35:59.719 --> 00:36:02.539
his property. You're only allowed to collect

00:36:02.539 --> 00:36:07.500
250 eggs off this. Got it. So it's set. So I

00:36:07.500 --> 00:36:10.119
met with this guy. He asked me for my social

00:36:10.119 --> 00:36:12.860
security number, my driver's license, my farm

00:36:12.860 --> 00:36:18.639
permit, everything. And he takes all this and

00:36:18.699 --> 00:36:20.900
calls me up a couple of days later and he says,

00:36:20.900 --> 00:36:22.679
I need you to come by my house, which you only

00:36:22.679 --> 00:36:25.179
live like maybe two and a half miles from my

00:36:25.179 --> 00:36:30.320
house, my UC home. And so I go to his house and

00:36:30.320 --> 00:36:32.920
he, on his kitchen table, he's got all these

00:36:32.920 --> 00:36:36.719
folders and paperwork of all these management

00:36:36.719 --> 00:36:40.000
areas and public hunt areas that I'm familiar

00:36:40.000 --> 00:36:41.699
with. I've worked - Yeah, that's okay, Morton,

00:36:42.039 --> 00:36:45.880
yeah. And places like Avon Park bombing range,

00:36:46.099 --> 00:36:49.170
which - has like 600 ,000 acres, I believe over

00:36:49.170 --> 00:36:53.730
there. So anyways, I'm saying, Hey, what, what

00:36:53.730 --> 00:36:55.349
is all this? And he goes, this is where we're

00:36:55.349 --> 00:36:58.829
going to start collecting. I said, how, how,

00:36:58.989 --> 00:37:00.750
how are you going to go through all this? He

00:37:00.750 --> 00:37:04.969
goes out, I'll show you. So I go on vacation,

00:37:04.969 --> 00:37:09.469
uh, to keep the wife happy. I told her this thing

00:37:09.469 --> 00:37:12.449
is fixing to go down. We, we love to go camping.

00:37:12.550 --> 00:37:14.510
So we took off to North Carolina and went camping

00:37:14.510 --> 00:37:17.820
for a week. made up another cover story with

00:37:17.820 --> 00:37:21.340
the bad guys. You know, I got to go meet my girlfriend's

00:37:21.340 --> 00:37:24.679
parents and we're going to go meet in some cabin

00:37:24.679 --> 00:37:27.460
up in North Carolina. So when you tell a lie,

00:37:27.579 --> 00:37:29.019
I think, you know, that when you tell a lie,

00:37:29.079 --> 00:37:32.000
you better know something about that lie. Like

00:37:32.000 --> 00:37:35.440
my cover stories, for example, I'm from a small

00:37:35.440 --> 00:37:38.639
fishing village here in our coastal, just north

00:37:38.639 --> 00:37:43.639
of where I live here in Florida. And so if they

00:37:43.639 --> 00:37:46.159
ever asked me, Hey, have you ever been down to

00:37:46.159 --> 00:37:49.380
Bubba's bar and grill next to shell point road?

00:37:49.739 --> 00:37:51.699
Oh yeah. I've been there numerous times, even

00:37:51.699 --> 00:37:53.059
though I've never been there. At least you know

00:37:53.059 --> 00:37:57.079
where it is. Yeah. Yeah. So I tell them we're

00:37:57.079 --> 00:37:59.260
going to go up to North Carolina. Just in case

00:37:59.260 --> 00:38:01.519
there's, Oh man, we used to camp, you know, North

00:38:01.519 --> 00:38:04.559
Carolina. So anyway, long story short, I'm on

00:38:04.559 --> 00:38:08.079
my way home and my UC phone, my undercover phones

00:38:08.079 --> 00:38:11.599
keep kept going off, kept blowing up on emails.

00:38:11.929 --> 00:38:14.849
And it's from FWC, Florida Fisher and Wildlife.

00:38:15.789 --> 00:38:19.289
Congratulations, you got the permit. And you

00:38:19.289 --> 00:38:21.929
got the bid on this property. Congratulations,

00:38:22.110 --> 00:38:25.369
you got this property. And I'm like, man, I never

00:38:25.369 --> 00:38:29.590
applied for any of these things. And so I called

00:38:29.590 --> 00:38:33.949
the supervisor. I said, I think the individual's

00:38:33.949 --> 00:38:35.650
name was Robert. I said, I think Robert just

00:38:35.650 --> 00:38:38.289
hijacked my damn farm. Because what do you mean?

00:38:38.409 --> 00:38:42.500
I said, He has applied for all these permits.

00:38:42.820 --> 00:38:46.739
There must be 25, 30 properties he applied for

00:38:46.739 --> 00:38:52.000
under Sunshine Alligator Farm, AKA Curtis Blackledge.

00:38:53.500 --> 00:38:56.940
I said, too much. I'm not going to complain.

00:38:57.400 --> 00:38:59.320
I want to see how far this goes. Yeah, for sure.

00:38:59.940 --> 00:39:03.820
So anyways, the collection permits begin. We

00:39:03.820 --> 00:39:07.550
start collecting eggs. from, especially from

00:39:07.550 --> 00:39:11.230
one of our own wildlife management areas. Um,

00:39:11.230 --> 00:39:13.690
and the way that the collection starts is you

00:39:13.690 --> 00:39:16.789
go to a gate and you got to call FWC and say,

00:39:16.969 --> 00:39:21.750
Hey, it's Curtis Blackledge. Um, I'm arriving

00:39:21.750 --> 00:39:24.309
at such and such gate on the South, the Southeast

00:39:24.309 --> 00:39:28.369
entrance, such and such property I'm going into.

00:39:28.710 --> 00:39:32.550
And so everything's documented through our agency.

00:39:32.909 --> 00:39:36.130
They had absolutely no clue that. That was another

00:39:36.130 --> 00:39:39.829
way of us documenting, because as you leave,

00:39:39.869 --> 00:39:42.289
now you have to tell them how many eggs you've

00:39:42.289 --> 00:39:47.769
collected. So what we were doing was, for example,

00:39:47.909 --> 00:39:51.510
even we had a biologist with us, we were collecting

00:39:51.510 --> 00:39:55.730
every single nest along the way. We weren't skipping

00:39:55.730 --> 00:40:00.190
nothing. And so if we were supposed to collect,

00:40:01.039 --> 00:40:05.280
Let's say 250 eggs from one property. No, we'd

00:40:05.280 --> 00:40:09.079
steal like 350 maybe four. Okay, so he's paid

00:40:09.079 --> 00:40:13.800
a landowner. Yeah, that $45 for the 250 bucks.

00:40:13.800 --> 00:40:16.579
Oh, you wouldn't you would 250 eggs, we would

00:40:16.579 --> 00:40:19.099
pay him but we would steal the other eggs and

00:40:19.099 --> 00:40:22.840
they would all end up at my farm. Our management

00:40:22.840 --> 00:40:26.400
areas where there's a set number we're supposed

00:40:26.400 --> 00:40:29.619
to collect. Once we get to the gate, we're supposed

00:40:29.619 --> 00:40:35.119
to call dispatch again and say, Hey, um, it's

00:40:35.119 --> 00:40:39.699
Curtis Blackledge. I'm leaving the place and

00:40:39.699 --> 00:40:41.900
it tells you what time you're leaving as well.

00:40:42.900 --> 00:40:47.619
And then we, today we collected 200 where I witnessed

00:40:47.619 --> 00:40:51.420
us collecting 500. So all this was coming back

00:40:51.420 --> 00:40:58.000
to the farm and. This thing hits so quick. And

00:40:58.000 --> 00:41:02.559
the good thing about this was Robert offered

00:41:02.559 --> 00:41:05.539
to pay for everything. Perfect. And thank goodness.

00:41:05.599 --> 00:41:07.219
Agency didn't have to come up with anything.

00:41:07.440 --> 00:41:10.300
I couldn't afford the containers he was bringing

00:41:10.300 --> 00:41:13.639
me to put these eggs in. You know, and I wasn't

00:41:13.639 --> 00:41:17.159
going to just call the agency and say, hey, I

00:41:17.159 --> 00:41:19.440
need 50 grand to get this thing off the ground.

00:41:19.900 --> 00:41:22.719
We don't have that kind of money. So he offered

00:41:22.719 --> 00:41:25.260
to do everything, even hiring a helicopter. We

00:41:25.260 --> 00:41:28.639
flew helicopters, recorded all the nests from

00:41:28.639 --> 00:41:32.679
the air and jotted it down on our GPS's. He furnished

00:41:32.679 --> 00:41:37.320
all the airboats and thank goodness because I

00:41:37.320 --> 00:41:39.500
don't even know we had an unmarked airboat that

00:41:39.500 --> 00:41:43.780
I could have used. Plus I did not want anything

00:41:43.780 --> 00:41:46.980
to ever make it look like I was a game horn.

00:41:47.119 --> 00:41:50.199
So I didn't even dare drive an airboat. I didn't

00:41:50.199 --> 00:41:51.619
want to get out there. And all of a sudden, I

00:41:51.619 --> 00:41:54.400
get a flashback. And I'm doing all my do -dads.

00:41:54.760 --> 00:41:57.420
And them say, where the hell did he learn how

00:41:57.420 --> 00:42:00.079
to drive an airplane? I wonder if this dude's

00:42:00.079 --> 00:42:02.480
a game. I couldn't undercover anymore. And so

00:42:02.480 --> 00:42:04.579
I stayed away from all of that. But my gosh,

00:42:04.599 --> 00:42:07.000
he paid for everything. So there's enough money.

00:42:07.300 --> 00:42:10.440
This Robert guy kind of appears out of nowhere

00:42:10.440 --> 00:42:13.539
because you're the only farm that will really

00:42:13.539 --> 00:42:17.739
work with him. But he's got enough money? There's

00:42:17.739 --> 00:42:20.260
enough money and eggs? No, it wasn't him. It

00:42:20.260 --> 00:42:22.260
wasn't him. Who's funding? We later find out.

00:42:22.260 --> 00:42:27.280
Yeah, who's funding this helicopter? It's probably

00:42:27.280 --> 00:42:30.659
the largest alligator producer in the United

00:42:30.659 --> 00:42:33.539
States. It's up in Louisiana. No kidding. The

00:42:33.539 --> 00:42:35.960
place is called Golden Ranch, but I will say

00:42:35.960 --> 00:42:37.940
they were innocent out of this whole thing. Okay.

00:42:40.199 --> 00:42:43.360
But we later find out that Robert, remember he

00:42:43.360 --> 00:42:45.679
had a partnership down here, not far from my

00:42:45.679 --> 00:42:48.960
business. This golden ranch used to come down

00:42:48.960 --> 00:42:52.380
and buy eggs from him and hatchlings, I mean,

00:42:52.639 --> 00:42:55.920
and take it back. So there was already a business

00:42:55.920 --> 00:42:58.679
established. Well, remember Robert broke away

00:42:58.679 --> 00:43:02.619
from the partnership and this guy just happened

00:43:02.619 --> 00:43:07.880
to hire Robert. Hey, if you can get me some hatchlings,

00:43:07.920 --> 00:43:10.599
I don't know how you're going to do it. I will

00:43:10.599 --> 00:43:13.699
make a deal with you. You get me some hatchlings

00:43:13.699 --> 00:43:17.960
and I'm planning on expanding. my operation down

00:43:17.960 --> 00:43:22.280
there in Arcadia. Wow. And you will be responsible

00:43:22.280 --> 00:43:25.739
for this. This was all found out. We find this

00:43:25.739 --> 00:43:30.599
all out later. Okay. So, Robert had all this

00:43:30.599 --> 00:43:34.460
connection that he could just say, hey, send

00:43:34.460 --> 00:43:40.400
Ed a check for 15 ,000. I just bought so many

00:43:40.400 --> 00:43:42.860
eggs from him and they would do that. They would

00:43:42.860 --> 00:43:45.780
just send you a check for 15 ,000. And the only

00:43:45.780 --> 00:43:48.400
reason we found that out is I got a call one

00:43:48.400 --> 00:43:51.159
night after we're putting all this stuff together

00:43:51.159 --> 00:43:53.179
and said, do you know a so -and -so? I said,

00:43:53.780 --> 00:43:58.320
no. They would go out, our investigators, and

00:43:58.320 --> 00:44:00.539
go interview this guy. I said, no, I don't know

00:44:00.539 --> 00:44:02.960
nothing about alligator eggs. I build airboats.

00:44:03.500 --> 00:44:08.940
I build the holes for airboats. And that hole

00:44:08.940 --> 00:44:12.260
costs $15 ,000, for example. I see. We go to

00:44:12.260 --> 00:44:14.500
another guy, hey, what do you build? Oh, I build

00:44:14.500 --> 00:44:17.980
the cages. He was building his own air boats

00:44:17.980 --> 00:44:21.179
using that guy. He was repping him up. Wow. That

00:44:21.179 --> 00:44:23.679
became a, that opened up a whole other can of

00:44:23.679 --> 00:44:26.539
worms. So anyways, after we got out, we get all

00:44:26.539 --> 00:44:28.840
these things that the agency's calling me and

00:44:28.840 --> 00:44:34.119
remember, your job basically as a undercover

00:44:34.119 --> 00:44:38.460
is to observe and report. Exactly, document,

00:44:38.780 --> 00:44:44.599
document, yeah. Write reports. And so at first,

00:44:44.760 --> 00:44:48.860
I was having to come home a lot. And it's about

00:44:48.860 --> 00:44:51.860
an hour and a half ride, write my reports and

00:44:51.860 --> 00:44:55.920
go back. Well, I got tired of that. And when

00:44:55.920 --> 00:44:58.940
my lieutenant found this out later on, he was

00:44:58.940 --> 00:45:02.460
mad. But I began building false walls in my camper.

00:45:02.559 --> 00:45:04.280
By the way, I didn't tell you, I ended up living

00:45:04.280 --> 00:45:07.949
in a camper on the property. Yeah, the idea behind

00:45:07.949 --> 00:45:10.929
that is if we need to go collect eggs way down

00:45:10.929 --> 00:45:12.909
in the Everglades, I can look on our camper,

00:45:13.469 --> 00:45:16.210
and instead of the agency paying for a hotel,

00:45:16.670 --> 00:45:20.489
I've got a camper I can stay in. So I began building

00:45:20.489 --> 00:45:24.090
false walls in the camper, in the barn, and this

00:45:24.090 --> 00:45:26.150
way I could put my personal wallet in there,

00:45:26.610 --> 00:45:31.489
my cell phone, my keys, and my computer. I would

00:45:31.489 --> 00:45:34.840
write the reports right there on site. And I

00:45:34.840 --> 00:45:38.199
damn near got caught one day because my gate's

00:45:38.199 --> 00:45:40.760
about 100 yards from the gate to where my camper

00:45:40.760 --> 00:45:45.079
was set up in the barn. That I began putting

00:45:45.079 --> 00:45:53.860
up the motion, the alarm, but birds were also

00:45:53.860 --> 00:45:57.800
setting those off. So now I went and bought this...

00:45:58.429 --> 00:46:01.150
It's metal. It picks up basically your car frame

00:46:01.150 --> 00:46:03.590
and you bury it in the ground and it sends a

00:46:03.590 --> 00:46:06.750
signal from the module to the camper because

00:46:06.750 --> 00:46:10.809
one day, I was sitting in the table typing in

00:46:10.809 --> 00:46:13.849
my report and I hear a car door slam. I look

00:46:13.849 --> 00:46:15.690
out the damn window. It's one of the bad guys

00:46:15.690 --> 00:46:20.250
that I hung out with. So I grabbed my damn computer

00:46:20.250 --> 00:46:24.559
and I threw it underneath my bed. What's up?

00:46:24.579 --> 00:46:27.139
You know, shake hands. Hey, you want a beer?

00:46:27.199 --> 00:46:30.639
Come on in, sit down. And since then, I was really,

00:46:30.639 --> 00:46:33.760
really very careful then. So that's how I started

00:46:33.760 --> 00:46:36.780
writing the report. So like I said, my job was

00:46:36.780 --> 00:46:40.179
to observe it, report it, let the command staff

00:46:40.179 --> 00:46:43.860
figure out what we're doing. So then comes the

00:46:43.860 --> 00:46:46.380
hatching season. We're collecting eggs. I had

00:46:46.380 --> 00:46:51.639
over $750 ,000 worth of eggs in my farm. And

00:46:51.639 --> 00:46:55.079
in the corner, I had what I dubbed the poacher's

00:46:55.079 --> 00:46:58.880
corner. While I was gone out in the field, and

00:46:58.880 --> 00:47:01.059
I knew this was going to happen because I had

00:47:01.059 --> 00:47:05.280
asked for additional help months earlier and

00:47:05.280 --> 00:47:07.480
they kept saying, no, no, no, that's how secretive

00:47:07.480 --> 00:47:09.019
it is. They didn't want nobody else involved.

00:47:10.199 --> 00:47:12.460
Well, every time I'd come home at night, I'd

00:47:12.460 --> 00:47:14.719
see more eggs that I know wasn't there in the

00:47:14.719 --> 00:47:18.300
morning. And by the way, I had cameras everywhere.

00:47:19.519 --> 00:47:23.539
I started using those game cameras, the older

00:47:23.539 --> 00:47:26.440
ones, not the cell ones. And I put them up all

00:47:26.440 --> 00:47:32.039
over the place and to see what was coming and

00:47:32.039 --> 00:47:35.059
going. They thought that I was doing it because

00:47:35.059 --> 00:47:38.760
at the time I farmed, we had partnered up, there

00:47:38.760 --> 00:47:42.219
was a lot of farms that were being, eggs were

00:47:42.219 --> 00:47:46.500
being stolen. That was another cover story. Hey,

00:47:46.699 --> 00:47:49.780
I'm gonna buy, I'll buy the camera so nobody

00:47:49.780 --> 00:47:52.119
breaks into our place, but literally they know

00:47:52.119 --> 00:47:54.480
I was using that because I was downloading it

00:47:54.480 --> 00:47:57.400
every day, especially when I'd come back from

00:47:57.400 --> 00:48:00.000
and I'd see there's more eggs in the corner.

00:48:00.780 --> 00:48:02.400
Where the hell did that come, I pulled my camera

00:48:02.400 --> 00:48:05.800
and hell, here's these guys walking in with all

00:48:05.800 --> 00:48:09.889
these crates and I could tell which. individual

00:48:09.889 --> 00:48:13.070
brought it and all that. And then on inside the

00:48:13.070 --> 00:48:16.250
barn, we had these little tiny cameras about

00:48:16.250 --> 00:48:20.309
the size of my pinky fingernail that fit perfectly

00:48:20.309 --> 00:48:24.090
inside the tool boards, you know, those boards

00:48:24.090 --> 00:48:27.809
with all the... Pegboard, yeah. Yep, the pegboards.

00:48:28.269 --> 00:48:30.869
And the problem with that is when I hear the

00:48:30.869 --> 00:48:33.570
alarm off going off at the gate, I had to run

00:48:33.570 --> 00:48:36.250
out in the barn and turn them all off. That's

00:48:36.250 --> 00:48:40.039
just how technology was back then. So now I've

00:48:40.039 --> 00:48:43.440
got all this data. We're hatching out all these

00:48:43.440 --> 00:48:48.599
eggs. We collected almost 13 ,000 eggs. I think

00:48:48.599 --> 00:48:51.400
we were the third largest in the state of Florida.

00:48:52.000 --> 00:48:54.280
Some of these are legally collected, and a lot

00:48:54.280 --> 00:48:57.840
of them are not. A lot of them are not. And they're

00:48:57.840 --> 00:49:00.500
sneaking in and supplementing your supply with

00:49:00.500 --> 00:49:05.719
illegal eggs, I assume, right? Exactly. And throughout

00:49:05.719 --> 00:49:09.059
the whole time, Robert had this metal case underneath

00:49:09.059 --> 00:49:12.059
his arm. He never turned that thing loose. And

00:49:12.059 --> 00:49:15.440
you know it as well as I do. Every criminal organization

00:49:15.440 --> 00:49:19.340
has some kind of paperwork somewhere. Well, that's

00:49:19.340 --> 00:49:22.159
where it was hidden. The metal case. And I had

00:49:22.159 --> 00:49:26.519
an opportunity to get to that case and started

00:49:26.519 --> 00:49:29.139
snapping pictures of it. And that was the first

00:49:29.139 --> 00:49:32.719
time I ever went up to Louisiana. And that would

00:49:32.719 --> 00:49:36.320
have never happened if... Robert at the time

00:49:36.320 --> 00:49:38.820
had also hired another buddy of his that worked

00:49:38.820 --> 00:49:41.739
at the last farm that they worked at, and only

00:49:41.739 --> 00:49:44.940
he and Robert were going to go up to Louisiana.

00:49:45.119 --> 00:49:47.840
I wanted to see this place. Yeah, so why are

00:49:47.840 --> 00:49:49.760
you going to Louisiana? Take the hatchlings up

00:49:49.760 --> 00:49:52.599
there? Yeah, because remember, that guy paid

00:49:52.599 --> 00:49:56.800
for everything. That all belonged to him. 2 ,500

00:49:56.800 --> 00:50:00.559
or the 5 ,000 he was going to pay for me, or

00:50:00.559 --> 00:50:02.780
to me, that was also coming from me. But as far

00:50:02.780 --> 00:50:05.340
as this Louisiana guy knows, he's only getting

00:50:05.340 --> 00:50:09.000
legal hatchlings from Florida. Yep. Right. Okay.

00:50:09.280 --> 00:50:12.239
He didn't know any of this others. Got it. Anything

00:50:12.239 --> 00:50:16.800
else, any other hanky panky. Got it. Okay. So,

00:50:17.139 --> 00:50:20.199
oh, I'm sorry. Going back to, I was asking for

00:50:20.199 --> 00:50:23.260
help. I started seeing all these extra things.

00:50:23.400 --> 00:50:25.320
I was pulling my cameras and I'm telling you,

00:50:25.380 --> 00:50:28.199
I need extra ice. So they brought in another

00:50:28.199 --> 00:50:34.739
officer quickly just to, and they, they, they

00:50:34.739 --> 00:50:36.780
told him what was going to happen. Next thing

00:50:36.780 --> 00:50:38.960
you know, he's, he's coming up to my place, but

00:50:38.960 --> 00:50:42.619
prior to coming to my place, I had called the

00:50:42.619 --> 00:50:44.980
agency and I said, or my lieutenant and I said,

00:50:45.059 --> 00:50:50.320
Hey, do we have a, uh, an unmarked utility trade?

00:50:50.900 --> 00:50:53.920
He goes, uh, I believe one just came in that

00:50:53.920 --> 00:50:56.960
one of our field offices. What do you need it

00:50:56.960 --> 00:50:59.639
for? I said, bring it to me. I said, I'm going

00:50:59.639 --> 00:51:01.880
to, I'm going to try and finagle my way to go

00:51:01.880 --> 00:51:03.739
to Louisiana. He goes, how are you going to do

00:51:03.739 --> 00:51:07.619
that? I said, Robert already has plans with him

00:51:07.619 --> 00:51:09.840
and the other individuals name is Tommy. Him

00:51:09.840 --> 00:51:12.119
and Tommy were the only ones trying to go. So

00:51:12.119 --> 00:51:13.980
they brought me that trailer. That new officer

00:51:13.980 --> 00:51:16.679
brought me that trailer. We got to meet each

00:51:16.679 --> 00:51:19.860
other that night. And so I planted that trailer.

00:51:20.699 --> 00:51:23.539
on the property. And every day that Robert would

00:51:23.539 --> 00:51:26.320
come in, he finally, like after the second or

00:51:26.320 --> 00:51:29.219
third day, he asked me, he goes, man, whose trailer

00:51:29.219 --> 00:51:31.360
is that? And I said, that's mine. What are you

00:51:31.360 --> 00:51:34.320
going to do with it? And we all knew that we,

00:51:34.480 --> 00:51:38.179
or we all love to go hunting. So I told him,

00:51:38.300 --> 00:51:43.599
I said, man, I found that, I bought it from this

00:51:43.599 --> 00:51:47.059
old lady. Her husband died and he was going to

00:51:47.059 --> 00:51:48.980
convert it into a camper. Well, that's what I'm

00:51:48.980 --> 00:51:51.079
going to do with it. I'm going to put a little

00:51:51.079 --> 00:51:53.219
Coleman stove in there, a bed, dah, dah, dah,

00:51:53.219 --> 00:51:55.719
dah. And I said, why do you have any use for

00:51:55.719 --> 00:51:58.699
it? He goes, man, that'd be the perfect way to

00:51:58.699 --> 00:52:01.440
haul these hatchlings up. Because they were just

00:52:01.440 --> 00:52:02.980
going to throw it in the back of the truck. And

00:52:02.980 --> 00:52:07.340
I'd already warned him that, man, it's hot. You're

00:52:07.340 --> 00:52:10.219
traveling. Well, I later find out Robert only

00:52:10.219 --> 00:52:13.239
wanted to travel at night. And I think... The

00:52:13.239 --> 00:52:15.940
reason was he could bypass all these agriculture

00:52:15.940 --> 00:52:19.219
stations. Exactly. All the ag check stations

00:52:19.219 --> 00:52:24.599
will be closed. So anyway, I told him, I said,

00:52:24.659 --> 00:52:26.340
yeah, we can take it, but I've got to go because

00:52:26.340 --> 00:52:28.699
it's all registered to me that I don't want to

00:52:28.699 --> 00:52:30.340
take any chance. He goes, okay, okay, you can

00:52:30.340 --> 00:52:33.360
go. And that's how I got to go up there. Perfect.

00:52:33.579 --> 00:52:36.480
So we ended up making three trips up there, taking

00:52:36.480 --> 00:52:40.559
over 10 ,000 hatchlings. and dropping it off,

00:52:40.739 --> 00:52:43.320
and my gosh, you ought to see that facility up

00:52:43.320 --> 00:52:45.719
there. Huge, huh? It's the size of a Walmart

00:52:45.719 --> 00:52:48.219
shopping center, 60 -something thousand square

00:52:48.219 --> 00:52:52.619
foot. Hell, they use a bobcat to pick up ice

00:52:52.619 --> 00:52:56.079
and to put ice in all the carts where all the

00:52:56.079 --> 00:52:59.039
meat's being skinned and all that. What they

00:52:59.039 --> 00:53:03.880
do to it or with it, Robert tells me, is he's

00:53:03.880 --> 00:53:07.119
got a tannery. This Golden Ranch has a tannery

00:53:07.119 --> 00:53:10.030
over in Italy. and all these alligators were

00:53:10.030 --> 00:53:15.630
going to the fashion industry, wallets, purses.

00:53:15.769 --> 00:53:18.789
Ironically, that is exactly what Special Agent

00:53:18.789 --> 00:53:22.250
Marie Palladini described 40 years earlier. Yes,

00:53:22.369 --> 00:53:24.030
exactly. You're right. You're right. I remember

00:53:24.030 --> 00:53:28.570
that. But no, those were going to China. They

00:53:28.570 --> 00:53:32.570
were going to Europe for fashion handbags, but

00:53:32.570 --> 00:53:36.760
also Japan, I believe. Japan. I knew it was an

00:53:36.760 --> 00:53:42.019
Asian country. This way if a company like Louis

00:53:42.019 --> 00:53:46.880
Vuitton calls and says, hey, I need 2 ,000 four

00:53:46.880 --> 00:53:49.900
-footers, they take the hide over there and tan

00:53:49.900 --> 00:53:52.880
it purple, pink, blue, whatever Louis Vuitton

00:53:52.880 --> 00:53:56.440
wants. Now, he's got all these expensive meat

00:53:56.440 --> 00:53:59.980
too because they have a special formula that

00:53:59.980 --> 00:54:03.929
I was told. Purina the scientists or whatever

00:54:03.929 --> 00:54:08.349
from purina designs to raise these things Alligators

00:54:08.349 --> 00:54:12.530
are rated by their skin It's a one to a five

00:54:12.530 --> 00:54:17.510
and I believe one is like the best or something

00:54:17.510 --> 00:54:21.389
vice versa. I don't remember but He raises nothing

00:54:21.389 --> 00:54:25.250
but the best hides in the world because when

00:54:25.250 --> 00:54:28.469
we drop off these hatchlings, they're in a little

00:54:28.469 --> 00:54:34.000
Let's just say 20 by 20 room and we'll dump like

00:54:34.000 --> 00:54:38.019
five or 600 hatchlings, you know, eight inch

00:54:38.019 --> 00:54:41.360
hatchlings in this room and they live in complete

00:54:41.360 --> 00:54:43.519
darkness to where they're not scratching one

00:54:43.519 --> 00:54:49.039
another. No scars. No scars or scar free. Actually,

00:54:49.039 --> 00:54:52.860
even while we were raising this at my farm, we

00:54:52.860 --> 00:54:55.159
were putting this chemical, it's actually for

00:54:55.159 --> 00:55:02.150
chicken, chickens that cures diseases. We tried

00:55:02.150 --> 00:55:04.949
to force them to hatch out, we would help them

00:55:04.949 --> 00:55:08.989
hatch out, but we didn't want the umbilical cord

00:55:08.989 --> 00:55:12.610
scarring their bellies. That's how critical we

00:55:12.610 --> 00:55:17.150
were even down here at my operation. So we're

00:55:17.150 --> 00:55:20.250
putting all these chemicals. We found one that

00:55:20.250 --> 00:55:24.230
was really the umbilical cord that really scarred

00:55:24.230 --> 00:55:26.769
their bellies. We put them in a little bit stronger

00:55:26.769 --> 00:55:31.969
tub to kind of close that gap and make the hide

00:55:31.969 --> 00:55:36.329
a lot better. So we would take all these, like

00:55:36.329 --> 00:55:38.730
I said, we made three trips all the way up there.

00:55:41.570 --> 00:55:46.989
And that part of it was pretty wild because I

00:55:46.989 --> 00:55:49.670
don't know that it's ever been done through our

00:55:49.670 --> 00:55:52.789
agency that we've gone out of state. Yeah. And

00:55:52.789 --> 00:55:55.150
that's a logistical nightmare when you do that.

00:55:55.170 --> 00:55:57.110
Cause I assume you had some cover, you had a

00:55:57.110 --> 00:56:03.469
cover team, right? Even down to the track. We

00:56:03.469 --> 00:56:06.809
had the old heavy trackers that you could put

00:56:06.809 --> 00:56:09.570
up underneath the car frame. Well, I didn't want

00:56:09.570 --> 00:56:14.130
to get caught doing that because they told me

00:56:14.130 --> 00:56:16.309
to just leave it in the trailer. I said, no,

00:56:16.309 --> 00:56:20.030
I'm not going to do that. I break an axle and

00:56:20.030 --> 00:56:23.309
we throw all that in the back. The trackers there

00:56:23.309 --> 00:56:27.030
on the side of I -75. I said, no, here's what

00:56:27.030 --> 00:56:29.809
we're going to do. Get on your computer, call

00:56:29.809 --> 00:56:33.769
me. I'm just going to put it in my damn overnight

00:56:33.769 --> 00:56:37.389
bag. I put it between my jeans, wrapped it, because

00:56:37.389 --> 00:56:38.869
they were trying to tell me it's not going to

00:56:38.869 --> 00:56:41.489
go through the roof of the truck. I said, go

00:56:41.489 --> 00:56:44.949
look at it. And they called me back and said,

00:56:44.989 --> 00:56:47.769
no, we can see. You're at the farm. So it's going

00:56:47.769 --> 00:56:50.969
to work. So I said, I don't know what else you're

00:56:50.969 --> 00:56:53.530
all going to do, but we're headed up to Louisiana

00:56:53.530 --> 00:56:57.809
in a couple hours. You do whatever you and that

00:56:57.809 --> 00:57:00.389
that's the other thing Robert would never say

00:57:00.389 --> 00:57:04.710
We're leaving next Tuesday at 6 p .m. And the

00:57:04.710 --> 00:57:07.349
reason he wanted to leave at night Was like I

00:57:07.349 --> 00:57:09.630
say he wanted to bypass all those stations. So

00:57:09.630 --> 00:57:14.789
we put a huge Bladder in the back a tank a diesel

00:57:14.789 --> 00:57:17.429
tank in the back of his truck. I think it held

00:57:17.429 --> 00:57:21.329
an extra hundred gallons of fuel And I wired

00:57:21.329 --> 00:57:26.170
up the whole Tank with the pump that we would

00:57:26.170 --> 00:57:30.170
just pull into a rest area Open up our fuel or

00:57:30.170 --> 00:57:33.429
get our diesel tank and fill up from there. We

00:57:33.429 --> 00:57:36.190
didn't even stop at a gas station He wanted to

00:57:36.190 --> 00:57:40.010
get these things up there You know to me that

00:57:40.010 --> 00:57:43.789
we were legal because we he had the legal Transportation

00:57:43.789 --> 00:57:45.909
documents to go all the way up because I was

00:57:45.909 --> 00:57:49.989
taking photographs of everything so that's how

00:57:49.989 --> 00:57:54.079
we made it up and That was one way that i was

00:57:54.079 --> 00:57:58.639
able to get to that container and i guess everyone

00:57:58.639 --> 00:58:00.840
that was following us they would take turns and

00:58:00.840 --> 00:58:05.260
just. I get to maybe after two and a half hours

00:58:05.260 --> 00:58:08.440
of driving another group of officers who come

00:58:08.440 --> 00:58:11.920
in and follow us and the plan was you guys stay

00:58:11.920 --> 00:58:14.460
at least five miles behind just keep an eye on

00:58:14.460 --> 00:58:17.119
your computer. And this is basically for my safety

00:58:17.119 --> 00:58:19.679
that they found out. I was working undercover.

00:58:20.039 --> 00:58:23.059
We could be crossing one of those Louisiana bridges

00:58:23.059 --> 00:58:25.639
and they just throw my body over the bridge.

00:58:25.980 --> 00:58:29.820
I don't know. But they followed us all the way

00:58:29.820 --> 00:58:33.739
up to Louisiana and back home. And I would have

00:58:33.739 --> 00:58:38.860
to keep track either way that for the most part

00:58:38.860 --> 00:58:42.619
Robert didn't drive. He'd drive us at you know,

00:58:42.719 --> 00:58:45.079
when we'd leave and we'd get up maybe two hours

00:58:45.079 --> 00:58:48.519
later and I picked up a quick habit with Robert.

00:58:49.099 --> 00:58:52.059
Anytime he put his arms up on the steering wheel

00:58:52.059 --> 00:58:54.900
and hugged the steering wheel and his head's

00:58:54.900 --> 00:58:58.239
up on his wrist, I'd be looking at him and say,

00:58:58.239 --> 00:59:01.400
oh my God, it's time for me to drive. I need

00:59:01.400 --> 00:59:04.159
to look at me. Hey man, you want to drive? And

00:59:04.159 --> 00:59:07.300
it's a 14 -hour trip up, 14 hours back. We didn't

00:59:07.300 --> 00:59:11.059
spend a night. So one of those times, I was up

00:59:11.059 --> 00:59:14.380
for like 52 hours. I was living off those five

00:59:14.380 --> 00:59:16.420
-hour drinks, those energy drinks. He just wanted

00:59:16.420 --> 00:59:18.920
to move the product as quickly as possible and

00:59:18.920 --> 00:59:21.940
get back. And get back. Because no, we were also

00:59:21.940 --> 00:59:25.699
hatching more. So was it $10 ,000 per trip or

00:59:25.699 --> 00:59:29.409
$10 ,000 total? No, no, no. between three and

00:59:29.409 --> 00:59:31.630
4 ,000 per share. So what's the value of that?

00:59:31.670 --> 00:59:33.889
These are hatchlings now. What's the value of

00:59:33.889 --> 00:59:37.010
10 ,000 hatchlings? By then they're about a hundred

00:59:37.010 --> 00:59:40.030
bucks a piece. That's a lot of money. Each hatchling.

00:59:40.570 --> 00:59:43.030
Each hatchling. So you've got, now what you've

00:59:43.030 --> 00:59:47.650
documented here really well is, you know, this

00:59:47.650 --> 00:59:50.730
illustrates what an undercover business is. why

00:59:50.730 --> 00:59:52.809
it's so helpful and why it's so good to use.

00:59:53.110 --> 00:59:55.989
Because what you've documented here is the systems

00:59:55.989 --> 00:59:58.789
that is being used to illegally harvest from

00:59:58.789 --> 01:00:04.510
the wild to disguise it with quote unquote legal

01:00:04.510 --> 01:00:07.510
paperwork to make it look legal. And then the

01:00:07.510 --> 01:00:10.849
classic laundering across state lines to an innocent

01:00:10.849 --> 01:00:13.829
buyer who probably doesn't know anything about

01:00:13.829 --> 01:00:15.989
the fact that these have been illegally collected.

01:00:16.530 --> 01:00:19.369
And there's no other way. that a law enforcement

01:00:19.369 --> 01:00:22.829
officer could document the scope of the problem

01:00:22.829 --> 01:00:26.670
without doing what you did. And so I assume you

01:00:26.670 --> 01:00:29.510
got Robert, and now you've got cases also against

01:00:29.510 --> 01:00:31.789
all these other people who were collecting for

01:00:31.789 --> 01:00:34.449
him and bringing eggs to your place. So how did

01:00:34.449 --> 01:00:36.710
this wrap up? We're getting short on time. How

01:00:36.710 --> 01:00:38.829
many people did you end up? How did the case

01:00:38.829 --> 01:00:40.449
come to a close, and how many people did you

01:00:40.449 --> 01:00:44.269
search? Well, it didn't really close then. I

01:00:44.269 --> 01:00:46.670
was ready to call. I'll bet. The agency called

01:00:46.670 --> 01:00:50.269
and said, hey, Will you stay in a few more months?

01:00:50.510 --> 01:00:53.369
What's a few months? What's going on now? Well,

01:00:53.369 --> 01:00:55.670
we have these individuals selling alligators

01:00:55.670 --> 01:00:58.070
out of the Indian reservation, which is illegal.

01:00:58.570 --> 01:01:03.349
I did that for an extra three months. I thought

01:01:03.349 --> 01:01:07.869
there was 11 people involved during the whole

01:01:07.869 --> 01:01:10.769
operation. This thing happened almost nine years

01:01:10.769 --> 01:01:14.909
ago. After we did the takedown, There might've

01:01:14.909 --> 01:01:17.630
been 14 people involved, if I'm not mistaken.

01:01:21.170 --> 01:01:25.590
And Robert ended up serving three years. We tried

01:01:25.590 --> 01:01:29.630
to charge him under the RICO. It's never been

01:01:29.630 --> 01:01:32.050
done. Wildlife and RICO is uncommon. So they

01:01:32.050 --> 01:01:34.929
took it through an appeal. Robert went to prison.

01:01:35.429 --> 01:01:39.730
He decided to go ahead and plea out. But the

01:01:39.730 --> 01:01:44.289
other four individuals were saying, hey, we didn't

01:01:44.280 --> 01:01:47.500
uh, collaborate with Robert to do this. This

01:01:47.500 --> 01:01:50.500
is not, this doesn't fall under Rico. So they

01:01:50.500 --> 01:01:54.719
took it to an appeal. The judge found that, uh,

01:01:54.760 --> 01:01:57.900
actually two things came out of this that we

01:01:57.900 --> 01:02:00.679
could not charge them under the Rico statute

01:02:00.679 --> 01:02:07.039
because the wildlife, you have to be injured

01:02:07.039 --> 01:02:11.139
financially somehow. Well, fish and wildlife

01:02:11.139 --> 01:02:16.610
doesn't own. the fish and wildlife in the state

01:02:16.610 --> 01:02:20.429
of Florida. We only manage them. So what they've

01:02:20.429 --> 01:02:22.710
done now, because we even tried to go through

01:02:22.710 --> 01:02:28.909
with the Lacey Act. So now our legislators have

01:02:28.909 --> 01:02:32.070
passed a new law now that any wildlife leaving

01:02:32.070 --> 01:02:35.610
the state of Florida, I don't remember the new

01:02:35.610 --> 01:02:39.650
law that was enacted, but the other guys still

01:02:39.650 --> 01:02:44.920
ended up going back in. for a year to serve their

01:02:44.920 --> 01:02:48.019
time. Because I had one individual, for example,

01:02:48.199 --> 01:02:53.760
that shot a white ibis while I was fixing lunch

01:02:53.760 --> 01:02:56.500
and I look out my camper window and he's doing

01:02:56.500 --> 01:02:59.679
his GI Joe crawl after he just told me or asked

01:02:59.679 --> 01:03:02.179
me, you ever eat one of them birds? And I said,

01:03:02.340 --> 01:03:05.440
man, hell no. I said, are those things protected?

01:03:06.210 --> 01:03:08.449
So anyway, he shoots one of these things and

01:03:08.449 --> 01:03:11.389
I'm, I'm screaming, man. I come out and I'm,

01:03:11.610 --> 01:03:14.210
I'm videotaping him by the way, with that follow

01:03:14.210 --> 01:03:19.250
up. And, uh, I said, what, what the F are you

01:03:19.250 --> 01:03:22.269
doing, man? I said, nah, the gunshot, the game,

01:03:22.409 --> 01:03:25.289
game wardens are coming. I'm damn, we've got

01:03:25.289 --> 01:03:29.909
this endangered bird you just shot. Um, so guess

01:03:29.909 --> 01:03:32.750
how he gets rid of it. He takes the carcass after

01:03:32.750 --> 01:03:35.860
we take the cut the carcass out. And I just happened

01:03:35.860 --> 01:03:39.000
to be barbecuing some bubble burgers. And we

01:03:39.000 --> 01:03:41.400
cut the carcass out. I put a little bit of lime

01:03:41.400 --> 01:03:44.179
juice on it and some seasoning, threw it on the

01:03:44.179 --> 01:03:47.139
grill. You took the carcass, threw it in the

01:03:47.139 --> 01:03:50.380
alligator pond for the alligators to eat up the

01:03:50.380 --> 01:03:53.599
evidence before the game word came. So anyways,

01:03:54.539 --> 01:04:01.159
the other guys were charged with possession without

01:04:01.159 --> 01:04:03.519
permits, all that. So they ended up serving the

01:04:03.519 --> 01:04:08.460
youth. And more than anything, Robert and they

01:04:08.460 --> 01:04:15.260
all have to pitch in and pay back over $100 ,000

01:04:15.260 --> 01:04:18.940
in fines, pay back Fish and Wildlife for all

01:04:18.940 --> 01:04:20.820
the eggs that was stolen out of the management

01:04:20.820 --> 01:04:23.539
areas because throughout that whole collection,

01:04:23.780 --> 01:04:26.579
there's also egg. fees that was supposed to have

01:04:26.579 --> 01:04:29.519
been paid to the agency. None of that was ever

01:04:29.519 --> 01:04:32.500
followed up. So they ended up paying over a hundred

01:04:32.500 --> 01:04:34.880
some thousand dollars in fines, and that's going

01:04:34.880 --> 01:04:37.179
to be for the rest of their lives. And jail time,

01:04:37.280 --> 01:04:38.980
which is good. So you have them on the record.

01:04:40.199 --> 01:04:42.239
And the new law you mentioned, I assume, is to

01:04:42.239 --> 01:04:44.760
make it easier in the future to bring RICO charges

01:04:44.760 --> 01:04:48.280
if necessary. Is that the idea? That as well.

01:04:48.280 --> 01:04:50.360
And then with the IBIS, you're just documenting

01:04:50.360 --> 01:04:54.030
any other crimes they commit. You know, funny

01:04:54.030 --> 01:04:56.110
mention that he threw it to get rid of evidence.

01:04:56.269 --> 01:04:58.309
He threw it into the alligator ponds for them

01:04:58.309 --> 01:05:02.150
to eat. I've been on crocodile, saltwater crocodile

01:05:02.150 --> 01:05:05.329
farms in Southeast Asia. And the only, the first

01:05:05.329 --> 01:05:08.250
thing that popped into my mind was, you know,

01:05:08.269 --> 01:05:10.909
in Thailand, a huge saltwater crocodile farm.

01:05:11.090 --> 01:05:12.889
I'm just thinking to myself, I wonder how many

01:05:12.889 --> 01:05:16.530
murdered people go into that pond, right? Disappear

01:05:16.530 --> 01:05:22.940
forever. You know, this is a great story, Jeff,

01:05:22.980 --> 01:05:25.820
I love the way it ties in with Marie Paladini's

01:05:25.820 --> 01:05:28.380
experience. Let me, let me ask you kind of your

01:05:28.380 --> 01:05:31.260
opinion as a, you know, former wildlife officer,

01:05:31.539 --> 01:05:34.139
obviously a professional conservation law enforcement

01:05:34.139 --> 01:05:38.460
officer. I think sometimes, you know, when it

01:05:38.460 --> 01:05:41.039
comes to wildlife trafficking, you often hear

01:05:41.039 --> 01:05:43.059
language out there where people talk about we've

01:05:43.059 --> 01:05:45.659
got to end wildlife trafficking. We've got to,

01:05:45.659 --> 01:05:49.239
you know, eliminate it. I always view that as

01:05:49.239 --> 01:05:53.690
terribly naive and, uh, in an unattainable goal.

01:05:53.769 --> 01:05:55.809
It'd be like saying, OK, we're going to catch

01:05:55.809 --> 01:05:58.309
murderers so that nobody commits murder anymore.

01:05:58.849 --> 01:06:02.869
It's just not going to happen. So when you hear

01:06:02.869 --> 01:06:05.809
Marie Palladini works on this case 40 years earlier

01:06:05.809 --> 01:06:08.750
and 40 years later, there are still people involved

01:06:08.750 --> 01:06:12.309
in alligator egg laundering and trafficking.

01:06:12.769 --> 01:06:14.570
Does that make you feel like we're losing the

01:06:14.570 --> 01:06:17.489
battle? Or how does that make you feel as a law

01:06:17.489 --> 01:06:19.969
enforcement officer? You know, when mine ended,

01:06:20.280 --> 01:06:22.639
I heard a lot of complaints from other farmers

01:06:22.639 --> 01:06:25.739
that they knew this was going on. Fish and wildlife

01:06:25.739 --> 01:06:29.360
should have never ended this. I could tell that

01:06:29.360 --> 01:06:33.699
undercover officer where else to go try. We got

01:06:33.699 --> 01:06:36.440
to come home to our families eventually. But

01:06:36.440 --> 01:06:39.519
no, for the longest time, it's been 10 years

01:06:39.519 --> 01:06:43.360
now, almost 10 years. It quieted everything down.

01:06:43.940 --> 01:06:48.559
Everybody got their act together. But you know

01:06:48.559 --> 01:06:51.489
as well as I do, Someone's always going to challenge

01:06:51.489 --> 01:06:56.570
something else to To make it better to do something

01:06:56.570 --> 01:07:01.190
illegal, you know There's always going to be

01:07:01.190 --> 01:07:04.869
a challenge but I just another one of these talks

01:07:04.869 --> 01:07:08.250
here last week and somebody actually asked that

01:07:08.250 --> 01:07:12.630
question Do you know? If this is still going

01:07:12.630 --> 01:07:16.530
on well Ben, I'm kind of out of touch because

01:07:16.530 --> 01:07:19.090
I've been retired now for so long, going on seven

01:07:19.090 --> 01:07:21.849
years now, but, uh, there's just happened to

01:07:21.849 --> 01:07:25.809
be an officer sitting in my audience that I actually

01:07:25.809 --> 01:07:29.130
trained. And I asked him, I said, you know, you

01:07:29.130 --> 01:07:32.139
tell me I've been out of touch. He goes, It's

01:07:32.139 --> 01:07:35.539
not as bad because now everybody knows that they

01:07:35.539 --> 01:07:39.500
got to call in to FWC and that was one way to

01:07:39.500 --> 01:07:42.760
do all that. Plus there's the threat now, they

01:07:42.760 --> 01:07:44.780
don't know if there's an undercover person out

01:07:44.780 --> 01:07:47.340
there. No, they don't know. Actually, it's funny

01:07:47.340 --> 01:07:51.179
you mentioned that. A book came out on it. Yeah,

01:07:51.219 --> 01:07:53.179
I was just going to mention that. So yeah, please.

01:07:53.320 --> 01:07:57.079
It was written by a former school teacher. Rebecca

01:07:57.079 --> 01:08:00.059
Renner, right? Yes, that said just that. She

01:08:00.059 --> 01:08:03.480
was a school teacher in the east side of Florida

01:08:03.480 --> 01:08:07.159
somewhere. And that's what prompted this book.

01:08:07.719 --> 01:08:10.340
One of her students came in and told her, Miss

01:08:10.340 --> 01:08:13.880
Renner, I'm going to quit all this illegal stuff

01:08:13.880 --> 01:08:16.279
I'm doing because you don't know who you're dealing

01:08:16.279 --> 01:08:18.260
with. And she said, what are you talking about?

01:08:18.969 --> 01:08:21.630
Some really good friends of mine got arrested

01:08:21.630 --> 01:08:25.329
for collecting Alligator. Yeah, and the guy that

01:08:25.329 --> 01:08:29.489
was he was an undercover game warden and you

01:08:29.489 --> 01:08:32.949
just don't know who you are She she got so intrigued

01:08:32.949 --> 01:08:35.609
about that that it took her over a year because

01:08:35.609 --> 01:08:38.890
by then coded it So she read she wrote that's

01:08:38.890 --> 01:08:41.130
what gave her the idea to write the book. I love

01:08:41.130 --> 01:08:45.090
it. Yes, she She tracked me down. I made the

01:08:45.090 --> 01:08:47.829
phone call, and I'll be damned. She wrote the

01:08:47.829 --> 01:08:50.310
book. Yeah, so listeners or watchers, if you're

01:08:50.310 --> 01:08:53.930
interested in reading more about this story of

01:08:53.930 --> 01:08:56.390
this undercover work that Jeff did, the book's

01:08:56.390 --> 01:08:58.750
called Gator Country. It's by Rebecca Renner.

01:08:59.829 --> 01:09:02.210
Get it, read it, and it'll go into much more

01:09:02.210 --> 01:09:05.430
detail about this story. Jeff, just to follow

01:09:05.430 --> 01:09:07.649
up, we're out of time. I want to thank you so

01:09:07.649 --> 01:09:09.510
much for coming on the program to talk about

01:09:09.510 --> 01:09:15.239
this. Your point is well taken that these efforts

01:09:15.239 --> 01:09:19.079
can deter future crime. And what I have always

01:09:19.079 --> 01:09:22.279
said is, you know, we're not trying to, we know

01:09:22.279 --> 01:09:24.199
we're never going to eliminate wildlife trafficking

01:09:24.199 --> 01:09:27.180
and wildlife crime, but all we have to do is

01:09:27.180 --> 01:09:32.279
just give animals enough space, enough to outbreed

01:09:32.279 --> 01:09:34.220
the poachers. That's all they need to be able

01:09:34.220 --> 01:09:38.960
to do. And also, also keep in mind that remember

01:09:38.960 --> 01:09:42.810
I took over 10 ,000 hatchlings. out of the stable

01:09:42.810 --> 01:09:45.109
floor. None of those hatchlings stayed here.

01:09:45.710 --> 01:09:50.229
So I was afraid if this practice continued, we're

01:09:50.229 --> 01:09:53.489
going to go back to saving, trying to save the

01:09:53.489 --> 01:09:54.890
alligator. Exactly. To the endangered species.

01:09:54.890 --> 01:09:59.229
Exactly. So we keep the pressure on, and we keep

01:09:59.229 --> 01:10:02.770
the deterrence up. And that hopefully gives the

01:10:02.770 --> 01:10:04.810
alligators and all those other species that breathing

01:10:04.810 --> 01:10:08.470
room they need. Jeff, I know exactly what you

01:10:08.470 --> 01:10:11.699
went through on this case. the frustration, some

01:10:11.699 --> 01:10:15.960
of the stuff we didn't talk about. And I appreciate

01:10:15.960 --> 01:10:19.060
the work you did. It's great work. Anytime somebody

01:10:19.060 --> 01:10:23.260
goes in that deep and lives the life, there's

01:10:23.260 --> 01:10:25.579
a tremendous impact on your personal life, your

01:10:25.579 --> 01:10:27.420
personal relationships. We didn't even get into

01:10:27.420 --> 01:10:30.319
that in this episode. But thank you for the work

01:10:30.319 --> 01:10:32.479
that you did. And thank you so much for coming

01:10:32.479 --> 01:10:34.479
on the show to tell us this story. I really appreciate

01:10:34.479 --> 01:10:36.640
it. Well, thank you for having me. It's been

01:10:36.640 --> 01:10:40.470
a pleasure. You bet. Alright everybody that brings

01:10:40.470 --> 01:10:43.010
us to the end of this episode stick with us.

01:10:43.069 --> 01:10:45.010
We've got more episodes great episodes coming

01:10:45.010 --> 01:10:49.369
up this season and take care Nature's Secret

01:10:49.369 --> 01:10:52.189
Service is written and produced by me Ed Newcomer

01:10:52.189 --> 01:10:55.149
and is co -produced by the DH TV team here at

01:10:55.149 --> 01:10:57.890
California State University Dominguez Hills Follow

01:10:57.890 --> 01:11:00.170
us on social media and connect with us online

01:11:00.170 --> 01:11:02.029
at naturesecretservice .com